This was a question that I dredged up while I was looking at expanding my 1,500 point DE army to include an Archon with a Clone Field and Bloodbride bodyguard.

Long story short, I was running a number of hypothetical battles and came across the Archon w/ Bloodbrides vs. Crowe or Brotherhood Champion. And then came the question... Could a clone from a clone field be used to negate Heroic Sacrifice? Heroic Sacrifice denies all saves, but Clone Field is not a save. It simply up and negates an attack that has hit the Archon. On the other hand, it says that it negates it before the roll to wound. There is no roll to wound with Heroic Sacrifice, meaning that there's no real place for the Clone Field to be used. I'm up in the air as to whether or not this would work, I can think up good arguments for both sides but in the end it's not my opinion that matters. I'd love to hear that Clone Field can be used this way, but I'm not going to break the rules to do it.

If the Clonefield negates d3 hits against the bearer, then yes, I think it can stop the Heroic Sacrifice.

*Archon runs the Brotherhood champ through with his huskblade*
*The champ roars with his last breath and stabs the Archon* "For the Emperor!"
*Archon fads out and appears two passes to the left* "Psych!"

Tzeentchling9 wrote:If the Clonefield negates d3 hits against the bearer, then yes, I think it can stop the Heroic Sacrifice.

*Archon runs the Brotherhood champ through with his huskblade*
*The champ roars with his last breath and stabs the Archon* "For the Emperor!"
*Archon fads out and appears two passes to the left* "Psych!"

Fluff and real world situations rarely can be accurately presented by the rules.

I would say it works.

Expect the GK player to disagree at high decibels though

I would tend to say that a clone field would not protect against heroic sacrifice as it's not really an attack. It's simply a psychic power that has a roll to hit portion similar to close combat.

I don't feel it works either, it states you use it right before they roll to wound. Which Heroic Sacrifice does not do IIRC

You assign to negate a number of d3 attacks that have hit. Then the to wound rolls are made and you can't go back on your decision. If this heroic sacrifice hits, then you can negate it.

Excpet you do it "just before" the to wound roll - there will never BE a to wound roll, meaning you never have permission to assign it.

Silly RAW, i imagine it will be changed...

I would say yes, because the heroic sacrifice stills falls under the criteria to be blocked by clonefield. According to you description of the rules for Clonefield.

I'll go ahead and quote the two relevant sections from the codices for reference.

Heroic Sacrifice: "... If the psychic test is successful, the brotherhood champion immediately makes a single attack... If this attack hits, both models are removed with no saves of any kind allowed."

Clone Field: "...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

I'm still not sure whether or not it would work, because of the roll to wound in the Clone Field description. It's the one thing that doesn't fit, seeing as there is no roll to wound. Other than that, the way it's worded, because Heroic Sacrifice is described as an attack (with a psychic test prerequisite) if there was a roll to wound, it would be nullified with Clone Field, no questions ask. Simply put, Clone Field is not a save.

Edit for spelling.

It does not work, Simply because you are removed before you would use Clone field.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psychic Test, Roll to hit& Removed or Roll to hit & whiff, (here's where the wound roll is, if it needed one)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Excpet you do it "just before" the to wound roll - there will never BE a to wound roll, meaning you never have permission to assign it.

Silly RAW, i imagine it will be changed...

Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree based on RAW.

If you got to choose which attacks to nullify "immediately after successful rolls to hit" rather than "just before the to wound roll" (which is the same thing in a normal assault sequence), then it would work, but as it is, it looks like GK win this one. Although I can count on Zero hands the number of times I've seen a Brotherhood champion in a game, and Crowe tends to either hide in a corner, die horribly to lances/blasters/splinters, or be too busy casting cleansing flame to use his Heroic Sacrifice.

With those specific wordings I agree with Jamesdean, you never have permission to use the clone field to negate Heroic Sacrifice because there will never be a to wound roll made.

From how the rules on these are written, it seems like you would be removed as soon as the hit lands. As soon as the roll to hit is successful, both models are removed. Therefore you never get past that to the "after hit, before wound roll" point.

I do not think it is as clear as people are making it out to be. To imply that because there is no wound roll step it does not work is incorrect. It will still work versus rending hits which have no to wound roll. It is a attack that requires a hit roll. It can be negated by clone field.

Sorry, what are you talking about?
Rending is on the to-wound roll. You're getting confused with 4th.

Your argument is incorrect, as you cannot fulfil the condition required to negate the hit.

If it negates hits what's the issue. It's not negating wound rolls..

Because you are only allowed to make the hit JUST BEFORE you roll the to wound.

By which point your model has already been removed.

blaktoof wrote:If it negates hits what's the issue. It's not negating wound rolls..

Here's your Issue

Bad Mamma Jamma Grey Knight (BMJGK) successfully casts heroic sacrifice
BMJGK now Hits your Archon, Archon is removed from Play here. As there is no Str no roll to wound is made, and beings you need to roll to wound to make Clones ...

To those saying that the clone would not work - apply your same logic to cleansing flame. If you do then you should also argue that you can't cast cleansing flame if you're locked in combat since you test for it 'after assault moves have been made'. As you've not made any assault moves, you wouldn't be able to cast it right? Well, nobody plays it that way.

I think that with the clone rule, it's been designed to prevent players exploiting some kind of game mechanic. However, since you roll to hit, then I believe that you should be able to use the clone against Heroic Sacrifice. Fluff wise it would make sense that the clone doesn't work but when does that ever matter. I'm a gk player and would prefer the clone not to work but to argue it doesn't based on a technicality when there's two very legitimate ways to interpret it seems a little WAAC to me.

ColdSadHungry wrote:To those saying that the clone would not work - apply your same logic to cleansing flame. If you do then you should also argue that you can't cast cleansing flame if you're locked in combat since you test for it 'after assault moves have been made'. As you've not made any assault moves, you wouldn't be able to cast it right? Well, nobody plays it that way.

The "after assault moves have been made" applies to when in the assault phase to test for it. Just because there's no movement in your combat doesn't mean there's no assault move part of the assault phase.

Heroic Sacrifice wins over Clone Field imo.

Dok wrote:From how the rules on these are written, it seems like you would be removed as soon as the hit lands. As soon as the roll to hit is successful, both models are removed. Therefore you never get past that to the "after hit, before wound roll" point.

I wholeheartedly agree on this. "Just before you roll to wound" would be chronologically after "On a successful hit", so the Archon would be gone before he can use clone fields by RAW.

Just to throw in more stupid RAW, nothing says that the single attack doesn't wound or penetrates armor. The attack is the same as a regular attack made by the champion, with an additional remove trigger, so it would still roll to wound and possibly cause a wound/penetrate a vehicle. However, this probably only ever matters against super-heavies and gargantuan creatures, as any other model would be gone anyway.

The bearer of the clone field rolls his D3 at the start of the round of combat, though, before Heroic Sacrifice. You simply decide which hits will be nullified before you start allocating wounds. The ability to nullify hits has actually already been granted before you get to the stage of choosing which ones. I believe the clone field should work against Heroic Sacrifice as per the rules.

ColdSadHungry wrote:The bearer of the clone field rolls his D3 at the start of the round of combat, though, before Heroic Sacrifice. You simply decide which hits will be nullified before you start allocating wounds. The ability to nullify hits has actually already been granted before you get to the stage of choosing which ones. I believe the clone field should work against Heroic Sacrifice as per the rules.

You only decide WHICH hits to nullify however AFTER the attack has hit, which is AFTER you are removed.

You have failed to address the key bit of timing, which renders your argument null

I don't think you can use heroic sacrifice on gargantuan creatures. They have a rule that only psychic powers with a str value can hurt them I believe...

the clones exist before you roll to hit, since they are there at the start of combat.

there is no reason you cannot allocate a hit to a clone. The wording is that hits can be completely nullified before the roll to wound. Roll to wound is a step in the assault phase. That is only in there to prevent a clone field player from negating hits after the roll to wound has been made, there is no rule saying the weapons have to go to the to wound roll step, in fact by RAW you are not allowed to go to the to wound roll step before you negate a hit.

There is nothing in the clone field ruling saying you are required to go to the to wound roll step, or hits that are nullified must have a to wound roll.

A more interesting argument is that the heroic sacrifice attack does not happen during normal assault routine ie assault moves/pile in. roll to hit/ roll to wound/ resolve.

its a special attack that happens if the model would be removed and actually still has an unused power for the turn to try to use. As such it happens long after that assault phases normal to hit and to wound sequence. That said there is no to wound roll left in the assault phase at all making anyone stating that point completely irrelevant in this topic.

This then begs the question could you save one of the hits from the clone field through the normal assault sequence until the end and use it against a hit after normal assault attacks but during the same assault phase before the assault phase has ended.

blaktoof wrote:the clones exist before you roll to hit, since they are there at the start of combat.

there is no reason you cannot allocate a hit to a clone. The wording is that hits can be completely nullified before the roll to wound. Roll to wound is a step in the assault phase. That is only in there to prevent a clone field player from negating hits after the roll to wound has been made, there is no rule saying the weapons have to go to the to wound roll step, in fact by RAW you are not allowed to go to the to wound roll step before you negate a hit.

The clones exist. You allocate hits to them before rolling to wound. After a hit is determined, the model is removed. You haven't had the chance to allocate the hit to a clone yet, because you are not at the roll to wound step.
That's my understanding of it.

Dok wrote:I don't think you can use heroic sacrifice on gargantuan creatures. They have a rule that only psychic powers with a str value can hurt them I believe...

You can use any psychic ability on a gargantuan creature. It just won't do anything unless it has a strength value.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:the clones exist before you roll to hit, since they are there at the start of combat.

there is no reason you cannot allocate a hit to a clone. The wording is that hits can be completely nullified before the roll to wound. Roll to wound is a step in the assault phase. That is only in there to prevent a clone field player from negating hits after the roll to wound has been made, there is no rule saying the weapons have to go to the to wound roll step, in fact by RAW you are not allowed to go to the to wound roll step before you negate a hit.

The clones exist. You allocate hits to them before rolling to wound. After a hit is determined, the model is removed. You haven't had the chance to allocate the hit to a clone yet, because you are not at the roll to wound step.
That's my understanding of it.

You don't allocate hits to a clone during the to wound step or at the start of the to wound step. you allocate hits before rolling to wound. There is no requirement to be at the to wound step, only a requirement to use a clone field to completely nullify any hit before rolling wounds. IE you cannot wait to roll to see what hits wound before negating a hit, hits are negated before you go to the wound step.

It says "just before you roll to wound". That's an exact point of time.

Personally I would say that you do get the clone field. Yes it is before a roll to wound which is right after the roll to hit. So psycic power is cast, the champ hits, the archon's clone field (which has already been rolled and still has atleast one clone left) would then ignore the hit. If the attack had a to wound roll it would be made here, but it doesn't and the hit was negated. That seems to make perfect RAW sense. The effect of the power would take place at the same time as the hit being ignored. There is no extra step in there for anyone to say well this happens first. The hit is ignored so the power can't work.

Heroic Sacrifice removes the model after a successful to hit roll.
Clone Field negates wounds just before you roll to wound.

Successful to hit roll is before "just before you roll to wound".

If someone else goes on the same I as Crowe, you roll all to hits, then all wounds. So I roll Crowe, hit, you're removed, I then roll the other to hits, then wounds, etc.

Heroic Sacrifice is not influenced by initiative whatsoever, other than potentially killing a model that has yet to strike.

blaktoof wrote:
You don't allocate hits to a clone during the to wound step or at the start of the to wound step. you allocate hits before rolling to wound.

JUST before rolling to wound. As in, a very well defined step that you NEVER reach when HS is activated.

blaktoof wrote: There is no requirement to be at the to wound step, only a requirement to use a clone field to completely nullify any hit before rolling wounds. IE you cannot wait to roll to see what hits wound before negating a hit, hits are negated before you go to the wound step.

Yet you are required to be able to get to the To-Wound step, because you can ONLY negate hits "just before" the to-wound step

HS never gets to the to-wound step. Your model is removed as soon as the attack hits.

You hit, then you roll to wound. Unless I drastically missed something there. There is no other space they would both happen at the same time. The attack would hit and then it would be ignored (this is after the hit and before the to wound roll).

If you'd strictly be following the BRB, you must() reference the strength vs toughness table before rolling to wound. At that time the Archon dies

Jidmah wrote:If you'd strictly be following the BRB, you must() reference the strength vs toughness table before rolling to wound. At that time the Archon dies

Although it is still before the to wound roll is made. RAW says I can ignore the hit before the to wound roll is made. So I do that before referencing the chart. Which is still before the wound to roll is made.

Akroma06 wrote:You hit, then you roll to wound. Unless I drastically missed something there. There is no other space they would both happen at the same time. The attack would hit and then it would be ignored (this is after the hit and before the to wound roll).

No, they do not happen both at the same time. Same as Scouts can happen just before the game starts, even though there isnt a "step" for it to occur in.

As soon as the attack hits, the model is removed. Before you roll to wound, Clone field activates

THis means 2 things


1) there are two separate steps, with one occuring simultaneously with the hit occuring, the other occuring after this point
2) You NEVER reach the to-wound step, therefre you CANNOT take any action which relies on this - you cannot do something "just before" to-wound, as you are never going to "to-wound"

That gives 2 reasons why it doesnt work, you must refute both

blaktoof wrote:
A more interesting argument is that the heroic sacrifice attack does not happen during normal assault routine ie assault moves/pile in. roll to hit/ roll to wound/ resolve.

its a special attack that happens if the model would be removed and actually still has an unused power for the turn to try to use. As such it happens long after that assault phases normal to hit and to wound sequence. That said there is no to wound roll left in the assault phase at all making anyone stating that point completely irrelevant in this topic.

This then begs the question could you save one of the hits from the clone field through the normal assault sequence until the end and use it against a hit after normal assault attacks but during the same assault phase before the assault phase has ended.

I've change my mind. Just re-read the entry and since heroic sacrifice takes place after 'normal' combat, then any time that Heroic Sacrifice is used, we will already be PAST the wound allocation phase anyway. The Clone Field cannot be used against Heroic Sacrifice.

I read the Clone field passage as indicating that you cannot allocate successful wounding hits to clones, just hits. The sentence about the "before wound rolls" is just to clarify this to alleviate any wound allocation shenanigans.

The clone field negates successful hits, not wounds per its own rules, so it should still work against the the heroic sacrifices, which as to roll to hit.

I do not see the "moment in time" that you are seeing, as the sentence for the clone field can be read so that as to make such a distinction not necessary.

Based on the quoted rules (dont have my books at work):

Roll to hit.
-if hit, remove model
-Negate with Clone Field
Roll to wound.

Just like the number 2 comes before 3 if I describe them thusly:
If you type 1, type 2.
Just before you type 4, type 3.

The clone field negates succesful hits JUST BEFORE you roll to wound.

Again, stop stating rules are stating something other than the clear, simple English they are: JUST BEFORE you roll to wound, perform X

I am never, ever going to roll to wound, therefore you cannot perform X.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:You hit, then you roll to wound. Unless I drastically missed something there. There is no other space they would both happen at the same time. The attack would hit and then it would be ignored (this is after the hit and before the to wound roll).

No, they do not happen both at the same time. Same as Scouts can happen just before the game starts, even though there isnt a "step" for it to occur in.

As soon as the attack hits, the model is removed. Before you roll to wound, Clone field activates

THis means 2 things


1) there are two separate steps, with one occuring simultaneously with the hit occuring, the other occuring after this point
2) You NEVER reach the to-wound step, therefre you CANNOT take any action which relies on this - you cannot do something "just before" to-wound, as you are never going to "to-wound"

That gives 2 reasons why it doesnt work, you must refute both

Must...MUST! The only thing I must do is pay taxes and die so don't tell me I must do anything.

Refute your reasons? Hmm well scouts DOES have a time in which they can move it is called scout moves so that isn't that great of an example. Actually the first one is easy. The brotherhood champs power does not activate simultaniously as hitting. Otherwise it would activate with or without him hitting since at time index "A" the champion needs to roll to hit and the thing he hits is removed, but he hasn't hit yet. Therefore they cannont both happen simultaneously since one is dependent on the other happening. Therefore they would both happen after I have been hit and before any wounds are made.

As for number 2. Simply because I don't reach the to-wound step does not mean that I cannot take an action based on it. The power is still an attack. An attack will still deal damage normally however this attack has something else hapen also (remove from game). Should this attack say hit a gargantuan creature. It would still have the ability to do damage with a to wound roll. Therefore there is a to wound roll it happens after I have been hit. So once again inbetween the to hit roll and the to wound roll lie where this powers effect would happen and when I get to the ignore the hit. If there is no hit then I am not removed.

2 things refuted.

Akroma06 wrote:As for number 2. Simply because I don't reach the to-wound step does not mean that I cannot take an action based on it. The power is still an attack. An attack will still deal damage normally however this attack has something else hapen also (remove from game). Should this attack say hit a gargantuan creature. It would still have the ability to do damage with a to wound roll. Therefore there is a to wound roll it happens after I have been hit. So once again inbetween the to hit roll and the to wound roll lie where this powers effect would happen and when I get to the ignore the hit. If there is no hit then I am not removed.

Actually, you're wrong. To take an action based on the to-wound step, you have to get to the to-wound step. It is still an attack, but it does not roll to wound. It would not do damage to a gargantuan creature (as there is no Str on the power). There is a to hit, you're removed, then you'd get to ignore it if you were still there.

1) No, that does nto refute it. "just" before defines a VERY precise time: the final thing you do before you roll to wound. Same as Scouts - they dont have a phase, they happen "just before". You apparently didnt get the link there.

Just after succesfully rolling to hit is not the same as just before rolling to wound.

Counter refuted


2) How are you performing an action "just before" an aciton you are never going to perform? You cannot, logically, do so.

Counter refuted.

1) Scout moves are defined as to when they happen. I counter your refute with a question. What else occurs that is inbetween being hit and rolling to wound? It all occurs at the same time.

2) Never is a strong word nos a very strong word. You cannot say that something will never happen. It is the same as saying always.

As for rigeld. Ok I know about the whole gargantuan creature thing my point was that there are instances when the attack does not remove the target. I am taking an action before the to wound step so I have to get there? If that is the case then if I ignore all normal attacks with a clone field then I couldn't have done so since we did not get to the to wound step?

Akroma06 wrote:As for rigeld. Ok I know about the whole gargantuan creature thing my point was that there are instances when the attack does not remove the target. I am taking an action before the to wound step so I have to get there? If that is the case then if I ignore all normal attacks with a clone field then I couldn't have done so since we did not get to the to wound step?

Yes there are instances when it fails to remove the target after it hits. Not that it matters much - HS just doesn't do anything. It doesn't roll to wound, it just does nothing.

No, You roll to-hits. You hit. Model is removed.
Next is to-wound. Before you try and wound, you negate hits with the Clone Field. That model ceased to exist, so you can't do that now.

Something that happens with respect to to-hit happens before something that happens with respect to to-wound. Just like to-hit happens before to-wound.

roll to hit//roll to wound//roll saves

clone field

BEFORE roll to wound. - if something automatically wounded would it still work? I think so. the 'just before' isn't a requirement, its a statement of the timing. IE before rolls to wound (if any) AFTER rolls to hit.

1) Yes, Scout moves are well defined - they occur "just before" starting the game. Hmmm, that "just before" wording seems awfully familiar....

It also clearly does not happen "all at the same time", that is demonstrably false. You needed to read this thread more carefully - Jidmah gave just one more example of an event that happens in between - consulting the to-wound chart. We now have 3 in total - HS activating, Clone field, and consulting the chart. We know that the VERY LAST THING you do before rolling to wound, as denoted by "just before", is you activate clonefield. This is after consulting the wound chart, and after HS activates

You have yet to construct an argument that acts to refute mine, as you ignore rules and plain make stuff up. Dont.

2) I can in this instance. Again, you fail at making an actual argument.

HS will result in there never being a roll to wound with that attack. Ever. As in, never. Ever. With cherries on top.

This is the part that bothers me, so I know I am missing something.

If you succeed in the clone field activation there is not a to-wound roll either, right?

Which means the activation is illegal?

Editing to add:
Or is it just that you roll, and ignore it, but you still roll--because that does not seem to be the case?
I think I get the rules, just not the way people are reading them.

You activate it at the begining of the assault phase, by rolling a D3. You know have d3 clones. Any hits that are landed against the wearer MAY be removed as a clone is hit instead. This occurs before the to wound roll, but after the to hit roll. I see nos' point on that he doesn't roll to wound (I think double check with him). Several others are arguing that it happens immeditely. My point is that why can I not ignore the hit immediately as there is nothing inbetween the to hit and to wound.

Yeah check the chart w/e. It is checked just before rolling to wound no? Then they occur together and I ignore the hit and thus the effect.

kirsanth wrote:If you succeed in the clone field activation there is not a to-wound roll either, right?

As I understand it the clone field activation happens before the to-hits, but the allocation/negation of hits happens before the to-wound roll.
So it gets activated, but ends up not doing anything because the model ceases to exist.
I don't have my books with me, but that's how I read the quoted rules and remember them.

Jidmah wrote:

Dok wrote:I don't think you can use heroic sacrifice on gargantuan creatures. They have a rule that only psychic powers with a str value can hurt them I believe...

You can use any psychic ability on a gargantuan creature. It just won't do anything unless it has a strength value.

Ah, ok. I have never played apoc rules. I knew it was something like that though. Cheers!

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:If you succeed in the clone field activation there is not a to-wound roll either, right?

As I understand it the clone field activation happens before the to-hits, but the allocation/negation of hits happens before the to-wound roll.
So it gets activated, but ends up not doing anything because the model ceases to exist.I don't have my books with me, but that's how I read the quoted rules and remember them.

Seriously? You roll at the start of the phase. Just said it. This adds nothing to the discussion your just restating your point in a very final there is no other interpritation way. The champion hits (after passing test) and after that the DE charachter is removed. However since this would be before the normal to wound step I can ignore the hit (assuming I have any clones left) and thus the effect.

rigeld2 wrote:I don't have my books with me, but that's how I read the quoted rules and remember them.

I have the books, and am reading the rules.
The hit is nullified after to-hit, before to-wound.
If there is no to-wound, folks say there is no ability to use the clone field.
If the clone field is used, there is no to-wound.

What am I missing?

Akroma06 wrote:This adds nothing to the discussion your just restating your point in a very final there is no other interpritation way.

I was answering a post, not directing anything to you with that statement.

The champion hits (after passing test) and after that the DE charachter is removed. However since this would be before the normal to wound step I can ignore the hit (assuming I have any clones left) and thus the effect.

And how is that not "just restating your point in a very final there is no other interpritation [sic] way"?

It's not before the wound step. It's after a successful hit. You don't have to leave the to-hit step before you remove the model - it's gone before you get to "just before" the to-wound step. If someone else goes on Crowe's init, they get to roll to-hit as well, but your model is still gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:If there is no to-wound, folks say there is no ability to use the clone field.
If the clone field is used, there is no to-wound.

What am I missing?

It's not that there is no to-wound (in this case, there isn't, but that doesn't matter).
It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

So does clone field, which is why I am confused.

Clone field nullifies the hit--there will not be a to-wound roll made when it is used.

Which apparently makes its use illegal but only when it is used.

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

After a successful hit...you mean right before the to wound phase? Those are the same thing. Therefore I have the ability to negate the hit, and if there is no hit then the power cannot affect me.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

So does clone field, which is why I am confused.

Clone field nullifies the hit--there will not be a to-wound roll made when it is used.

Which apparently makes its use illegal but only when it is used.

Clone Field says "just before" the to-wound step. HS removes after a successful hit in the to-hit step. Since you don't leave the to-hit step until after Crowe has already removed himself and his target, you don't ever get to "just before" the to-wound step.

After a successful hit...you mean right before the to wound phase? Those are the same thing. Therefore I have the ability to negate the hit, and if there is no hit then the power cannot affect me.

No. The to-hit step and to-wound step are distinctly different. You're removed on a successful to-hit roll. You don't move to the to-wound step - you're already removed by the time you would.

You don't roll to-hit for one person on the init step, then to-wound, then repeat for everyone on that init step - you roll to-hits for everyone, then you roll to-wounds for everyone. By your assertion, I'd roll to-hit with Crowe, then you'd negate, then anyone else on his I would roll to-hit.

rigeld2 wrote:No. The to-hit step and to-wound step are distinctly different.

And clone field negates successful to-hits before the to-wound roll comes in to play. Exactly like the stuff that says to-wound is nullified.

Yet saying that a to-wound is nullified does not mean that clone field cannot apply.

Akroma06 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's that this power resolves after a successful to-hit, so you never get to the to-wound phase.

After a successful hit...you mean right before the to wound phase? Those are the same thing. Therefore I have the ability to negate the hit, and if there is no hit then the power cannot affect me.

NO, they are not the same thing.

Stop ignoring the phrase "just before", as it smacks of a poor argument. "Just before" tells you that, the very last thing you do before rolling to wound is decide what hits to negate. After rolling to hit you remove the model. This is BEFORE you decide what hit to negate - because, and I repeat, "just before" must happen after "before", otherwise you are stating that the word "just" means nothing.

So, just after the to-hit, you are removed. this is BEFORE you get to "just before" the to-wound step, therefore you do not get the chance to ignore the hit.

Arguing the word just is arguing not even RAI but english as intended.

If you go to the wound step you are at the wound step, not before it. You cannot go to the wound step to negate a hit with clone field, it does not say at the start of the wounds step before you roll for rounds.

it says just before you roll for wounds. there is no rule saying to go to the wound step, consider wounds, or be at the wound step but not rolling.

Negating hits after the to hit rolls during the to hit step falls under the time frame of just before.

blaktoof wrote:If you go to the wound step you are at the wound step, not before it.

When do you roll to wound? During the wound step. When is the hit determined to be successful or not? During the to-hit step. Notice how they are different steps so happen at different times?

yep,

thats why if you leave the to hit step without negating clone field hits you have broken the rules because rolling to wound is the first thing you do during the rolling to wound step. as per the 5th edition rulebook immediately after rolling to hit is rolling to wound p.38 main rulebook.

The first line of the section is "Rolling to wound"

So what happens in the main book just before rolling to wound? Oh thats rolling to hit.

Literally whats happens before the first instance of "Rolling to Wound" Is the to hit chart, so just before rolling to wound is literally the result of the die roll from the to hit chart being negated by clone field.

therefore RAW the clone field hits are negated just before Rolling to wound, which is the to hit step.

Clone field negates hits after rolling to hit during the assault phase, not anytime during the rolling to wound step. RAW.

I concur with blacktoof. Its but raw, as the step just before roll to wound, is the roll to hit. But i can also see why there is.confusion about it. Hopefully gw makes a faq soon.

So I broke out my Codex to make sure I understood what I was quoting, and it turns out I was wrong about the power.

p.26 GK Codex:

This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase.

So the whole to-hit/to-wound order doesn't matter. You allocate a killing wound to Crowe, fail a save, make your psychic test, make your to-hit, and both models go away. Clone Field doesn't matter because it doesn't happen in the normal Assault step order.

It's not a normal to-hit. It just happens.

Blaktoof - so you are arguing there is no "just before" the to-wound, as that is the to-hit?

Brilliant, clone field never works, ever.

Oh right, what you're saying isnt true. So, clone field works, but not against HS.

no I am stating that according to the main rule book "just before rolling to wound" is the result of the hit table during the to hit step.

Therefore RAW just before roilling to wound is the result of rolling to hit, so you do not need to worry about the wound step for selecting a hit to completely nullify with clone field because it is not a requirement RAW to go to.


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rigeld2 wrote:So I broke out my Codex to make sure I understood what I was quoting, and it turns out I was wrong about the power.

p.26 GK Codex:

This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase.

So the whole to-hit/to-wound order doesn't matter. You allocate a killing wound to Crowe, fail a save, make your psychic test, make your to-hit, and both models go away. Clone Field doesn't matter because it doesn't happen in the normal Assault step order.

It's not a normal to-hit. It just happens.

Depending on the dynamics of the assault a brotherhood champion could die with both sides still having attacks left, and a model with a clone field still having clones to allocate hits towards. As the heroic sacrifice rule happens when the model dies at a certain initiative step it is possible for a model with a clone field to still have clones left during that assault phase.

Here is the way I look at this. You have a normal sequence of A then B, rolling to hit and rolling to wound. You then add in X and Y, which is heroic sacrifice and clones.

Heroic sacrifice (x) says it takes place after hitting (A). Clones (Y) take place just before wounding (B).

So the order would be

A-X-Y-B

or hit, sacrifice, clone, wound.

So sacrifice takes effect before clones would work.

blaktoof wrote:Depending on the dynamics of the assault a brotherhood champion could die with both sides still having attacks left, and a model with a clone field still having clones to allocate hits towards. As the heroic sacrifice rule happens when the model dies at a certain initiative step it is possible for a model with a clone field to still have clones left during that assault phase.

Yes, that is possible. But the power is not used in a normal initiative order.

To hit step:
Roll to hits. Determine success.
To wound step:
Allocate Clone Field stuff.
Roll to wound.
Make saves
Crowe dies - psychic test is rolled, to-hit is rolled, models are removed.

There's no "to wound" step during the psychic test. Clone field can't help you.

Clone field does not negate wounds I t negates hits. Char 1 has 5 attacks 2 with a power fist. Clone field generates 2 clones. The character makes his opposed WS checks to hit the archon, getting 1 fist hit and 2 others. The archon selects the fist and let's the other attacks go through. THEN we progress to the wound stage etc. Clone field negates d3 HITS. Therefore, if he has clones left, as soon as the "hit" roll is made for HS you can negate it. Especially since HS requires a close combat to hit roll, and clone fields negate close combat hits. Pretty clear IMHO. And no - I'm not getting into a silly magic the gathering "stack" style argument. It's not that complicated and not worth the preverbal breath.

Clone field negates hits. Heroic sacrifice is a hit followed by effect. Since it's effect follows the hit, and the clone field interrupts and negates hits the clone field will stop it. ( providing you stl have clones left)

DarthSpader wrote:Clone field negates hits. Heroic sacrifice is a hit followed by effect. Since it's effect follows the hit, and the clone field interrupts and negates hits the clone field will stop it. ( providing you stl have clones left)

Clone Field negates hits allocated *before* the wound step. Heroic Sacrifice is tested for, and rolls to hit, after armor saves have already been rolled - long after Clone Field gets to negate the hit. There is no rolling to wound after HS happens - just the single to-hit roll, and then models are removed. HS does not give permission for a roll to wound, therefore you cannot have something happen that happens "just before" rolling to wound.

And it's funny how you refuse to get into the MTG style stack argument, but you choose words like interrupt to try and support your argument.

DarthSpader wrote: I'm not getting into a silly magic the gathering "stack" style argument. It's not that complicated and not worth the preverbal breath.

Clone field negates hits. Heroic sacrifice is a hit followed by effect. Since it's effect follows the hit, and the clone field interrupts and negates hits the clone field will stop it. ( providing you stl have clones left)

It's not a stack thing, its an order of operation thing. If you put the clones prior to sacrifice, they are no longer just before the to wound roll. If we know that sacrifice is after hitting, and clones are just before wounding, the order would be sacrifice then clones. Any other order stops clones from being JUST before wounding.

First off there is no MTG stack. And in a wierd twist of fate HS could theoretically wound. Granted it doesn't tell you to roll for a wound but it does say make an attack. The BRB tells you that after rolling to hit you roll to wound. HS does not tell you to NOT do this it says that the target that was hit is removed along with the brotherhood champ, so if you have some special rule that says you can't be removed via special rules/effects then you could take a wound. Therefore there is a to wound roll it just normally never happens.
The HS attack would hit, the clone field would attempt to negate the hit. HS would attempt to remove the hit character (which it can't since the hit was removed). Under a very bizzare and hypothetical possibility it would then roll to wound. So therefore I removed the hit before the roll to wound which occurs at the same time as the remove the hit charachter from play.

Not gonna go into a long post but I would play it that Sacrifice does not roll to wound and does not allow saves of any kind, therefor I would say clone field does nothing against it.

Akroma06 wrote:First off there is no MTG stack.

correct

And in a wierd twist of fate HS could theoretically wound.

No, it can't. It doesn't have a str value, it's not a normal attack - it's a to hit roll.

And you're still ignoring the fact that HS happens *after* wounds have already been saved, which is long after Clone Field could have negated anything, let alone a psychic power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
You don't allocate hits to a clone during the to wound step or at the start of the to wound step. you allocate hits before rolling to wound.

JUST before rolling to wound. As in, a very well defined step that you NEVER reach when HS is activated.

blaktoof wrote: There is no requirement to be at the to wound step, only a requirement to use a clone field to completely nullify any hit before rolling wounds. IE you cannot wait to roll to see what hits wound before negating a hit, hits are negated before you go to the wound step.

Yet you are required to be able to get to the To-Wound step, because you can ONLY negate hits "just before" the to-wound step

HS never gets to the to-wound step. Your model is removed as soon as the attack hits.

Just playing devils advocate here, but if you get hit only once, then you can never use a close field.
Wording of Clone Field: The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made

If he nullifies the only hit, then you never roll to wound. If you never roll to wound, then you never get to the "just before the roll to wound is made phase.

Rolling to wound is not a requirement to use the clone field. You just must decide to use it before the roll to wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:First off there is no MTG stack.

correct

And in a wierd twist of fate HS could theoretically wound.

No, it can't. It doesn't have a str value, it's not a normal attack - it's a to hit roll.

And you're still ignoring the fact that HS happens *after* wounds have already been saved, which is long after Clone Field could have negated anything, let alone a psychic power.

Actually I'm not. it happens fter the wounds delt by the archon or whoever killed the champ. The champ then gets to hit with HS. So then after that is when I would use a clone to ignore the hit. Which would be after the champ swings and before the aforementioned possible wound.


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jbunny wrote:
Just playing devils advocate here, but if you get hit only once, then you can never use a close field.
Wording of Clone Field: The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made

If he nullifies the only hit, then you never roll to wound. If you never roll to wound, then you never get to the "just before the roll to wound is made phase.

Rolling to wound is not a requirement to use the clone field. You just must decide to use it before the roll to wound.

Fully agree

Akroma06 wrote:Actually I'm not. it happens fter the wounds delt by the archon or whoever killed the champ. The champ then gets to hit with HS. So then after that is when I would use a clone to ignore the hit. Which would be after the champ swings and before the aforementioned possible wound.

You're assuming there's a wound step for that power - the power describes no such thing, so you don't have permission to do anything in the wound step. Guess what happens in the wound step?

Rolling to wound is not a requirement to use the clone field. You just must decide to use it before the roll to wound.

Fully agree

You must decide to use it *just* before the roll to wound. That means you've gone from page 37 to page 38 in the rulebook. Does than mean you might negate the hit that allowed you to get to the wound step? Sure... paradoxes happen when rules are written like this.

HS rolls after casualties are removed. Since HS only gives permission for a to-hit roll, and does not give permission to roll to wound (in any scenario, no matter what you try and make up) you never get to any kind of to wound step. HS has nothing to do with a normal assault phase, which is what CF relates to.

I'm not sure how that's confusing. CF states "just before the roll to wound". HS doesn't allow a wound step, and in fact removes the model immediately after a successful hit.

HS is a special attack, but as an attack it is bound by all rules in the BRB. It is just not normally going to happen in everyday circumstances. HS doesn't specifically say there isn't. Since there is nothing saying it doesn't AND it is an attack then there is one. Therefore there would be a spot for the clone field to ignore the hit. No hit=No removed from play charachter.

No, there is no roll "to wound" because there is no S value nor is there an alternative mechanism given in its place. Meaning you cannot perform any action contingent no there being a wound, like any action which MUST HAPPEN "just before" you roll to wound

HS is a psychic power and is used as described. It does not have a Str value, it does not roll to wound, and you do not get saves against it.

At no time, special rule against being removed from the table or not, will you EVER roll to wound with HS. It is a psychic power with a descriptipn on how to use it.

Rig has it locked down.

So by this logic, if an attack did not require a roll to wound, which is to say wounded automatically, a clone field would be likewise helpless?

Wounded automatically does not mean a to wound roll does not take place. It just means that regardless of the result a wound is caused.

Any use of the clone against a single hit means there is no to-wound roll, right?

How does that help?

The clone field negates hits. HS requires one....and rolls to hit.... So clone field can negate it. Same as a psychic hood could negate the power in the first place.

Since we have no rules saying when that happens just before, or just after or halfway between or immediately following etc, all we have is generic phases, and since both abilities kick in after the hit roll but before normal wound rolls, i will argue they occupy the same phase. As such if one cancels the other directly do so, if not resolve them both. HS does not directly state "prevents war gear" etc from working. The clone field however DOES negate all results from a CC hit. Power fist, ID, power wep, mundane, force weapon etc.

HC does not take effect outside init orders, it doesnt have anything special other then making an attack when Otherwise wouldn't be able to. (while being removed as casualty) so I stand by my position. Clone fields work on HS

If you look at it an order of operations way then the hit has to happen before the clone field can be used however, the effect of heroic strike happens immediately after the hit or possibly even concurrently with the successful roll to hit.

Another way to say it is a clone field requires a hit before it can be used, thus by the time you would be given permission to use the field the model has already been hit and thus been removed as the effect of Heroic Sacrifice happens at the instant the roll to hit is successful.

Tracer Bullet wrote:Heroic Sacrifice happens at the instant the roll to hit is successful.

This is not what is states.

Clone Field: "...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

I'm inclined to argue that even though no wound roll is made, it does not stop the Clone Field from nullifying the hit. It's a normal hit, without a wound roll. Also, it does say just before the roll is made, not when the roll is made.


Normal combat goes something like this.

Determine Attacks--->Determine Targets--->Roll to Hit--->Roll to Wound

The period of time in between the hits and the wounds is when Clone Field applies. Though no wound roll is made, the time before this action is decided takes place (I.E. there is still time before the wound roll is made, except that there is no roll to wound.) This doesn't negate the fact that there is a period of time where wounds WOULD be rolled, if there were any.

Please note that this attack is not done in normal combat. In this Variant there is Psychic Test; Roll to hit; Remove from play

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Please note that this attack is not done in normal combat. In this Variant there is Psychic Test; Roll to hit; Remove from play

Psychic tests don't alter the fact that the power is used in close combat. In addition, the power itself is an attack, just like any other attack, there is just no wound roll.

Because there isn't a wound roll doesn't mean that the time in between when the hit is made and when any wounds would be rolled is gone.

And, yet again, people are ignoring the key part of the phrase - JUST BEFORE rolling to wound
By the time you get to "just before" which bu definition is the LAST thing you do before you roll to wound, HS has already removed the model

1) You remove the model after the to-hit is succesful. By definition this is before "just before" the to wound

If you disagree you are allowing Scout moves to occur any time before the game starts. Which is totally wrong.

2) There is never a to-wound roll with HS, you CANNOT perform something "just before" a roll to wound that will never occur.


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Jidmah - no, you're making the FNP fallacy there.

random thought on this topic.....

would a tyranid gargoyle ignore the clone field??

on a 6 to hit they auto wound - no wound roll.


as a GK player i would always let people use the clones against the brotherhood champion and crowe. as far as i can see there is no difference between "after rolling to hit" and "just before rolling to wound" - they are the exact same things

Except theyre not.

Otherwise youre allowing Scout moves to happen before Infiltrate, or hell at any point during deployment.

"JUST BEFORE" means exactly that - JUST before. Not any time before, not a bit before but we'll let something else go after us, JUST before.

Saying theyre the same thing shows a critical lack of understranding of the English language

Ignoring hits does this strange thing... it ignores the hit! Wow, go figure!

It ignores up to 3 hits BEFORE rolls to hit are made, the owning player gets to pick and choose which hits get ignored.

So since the hit was "ignored" before he even swung, he Heroic Sacraficed himself to take out a clone image.

Ignore= just that- Ignore it like it never happened or never was.

Anglacon wrote:Ignoring hits does this strange thing... it ignores the hit! Wow, go figure!

It ignores up to 3 hits BEFORE rolls to hit are made, the owning player gets to pick and choose which hits get ignored.

So since the hit was "ignored" before he even swung, he Heroic Sacraficed himself to take out a clone image.

Ignore= just that- Ignore it like it never happened or never was.

Clones do not take effect before hitting, they take effect just before wounding which is what the debate is about.

Cryonicleech wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Please note that this attack is not done in normal combat. In this Variant there is Psychic Test; Roll to hit; Remove from play

Psychic tests don't alter the fact that the power is used in close combat. In addition, the power itself is an attack, just like any other attack, there is just no wound roll.

Because there isn't a wound roll doesn't mean that the time in between when the hit is made and when any wounds would be rolled is gone.

The fact that it's a Psychic power absolutely matters. It happens after casualties are removed, and there is no permission to go back and have a to-wound step. Without that to-wound step there's no way to allocate the negation.

Anglacon wrote:Ignoring hits does this strange thing... it ignores the hit! Wow, go figure!

It ignores up to 3 hits BEFORE rolls to hit are made, the owning player gets to pick and choose which hits get ignored.

Wrong. You may wish to either reread your codex, or this thread, where the correct rules have been given.

Given your premise is false your conclusion is as well.

Lokas wrote:I'll go ahead and quote the two relevant sections from the codices for reference.

Heroic Sacrifice: "... If the psychic test is successful, the brotherhood champion immediately makes a single attack... If this attack hits, both models are removed with no saves of any kind allowed."

Clone Field: "...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

I'm still not sure whether or not it would work, because of the roll to wound in the Clone Field description. It's the one thing that doesn't fit, seeing as there is no roll to wound. Other than that, the way it's worded, because Heroic Sacrifice is described as an attack (with a psychic test prerequisite) if there was a roll to wound, it would be nullified with Clone Field, no questions ask. Simply put, Clone Field is not a save.

Edit for spelling.

Order of close combat: 1: Roll to hit, 2: Roll to wound, 3: Roll to save.

The Champion makes a HS which works as an additional attack; 1: Roll to hit, 2: (which could be argued as there is no specific time frame allocated) Remove models (you don't roll to wound just remove models), 3: No saves possible.

The Clone Field: 1: Roll for clones, 2: Roll to hit. 3: Remove hits, 4: Roll to wound/remove models, 5: Make saves/no saves possible.

As Clone Fields removes hits, then it removes the HS hit, and that's the way I would play it.

rigeld2 wrote:Heroic Sacrifice is tested for, and rolls to hit, after armor saves have already been rolled - long after Clone Field gets to negate the hit..

Not necessarily. If the archon is at a higher Initiative than Crowe, then order would be as follows:
1: Roll d3 for clones.
2: Archon attacks
3: Archon hits/wounds
4: Crowe fails enough saves to die.
5: Crowe successfully hits with HS, at this time, the ONLY model to have made any attacks is the archon, therefore, he would still have clones to use in this combat.
6: ???
7: PROFIT!!! (sorry, couldn't help myself)

Mabus - except, as you ignored, it removes hits AFTER the HS has already removed the model.

I just read a GW FAQ that clarifies the issue. due to weird temporal anomalies, and other sciency stuff GK and DE are never allowed to fight each other. Ever. Dont even try. It's like dividing by zero.


That should solve things.

But if the clone field negates the hit, the model isn't removed from the table, so clone field could activate without problem . . .
Do you see how silly this whole thing is? You have no information on which ability has priority in any way. All you have is guesswork.

Heroic Sacrifice doesn't state that no to wound roll is made. In fact, it specifically states that you are making a "single attack". I don't see how you can possibly argue that Heroic Sacrifice has a precise point in that it triggers, it's just an if statement. Since we have no specific time, Clone field can activate and prevent the hit.

It seems that the only way to decide this would be to make a poll.

Irdiumstern wrote:But if the clone field negates the hit, the model isn't removed from the table, so clone field could activate without problem . . .
Do you see how silly this whole thing is? You have no information on which ability has priority in any way. All you have is guesswork.

Do you mean apart from the phrase "just before"? If you're going to claim "no information" then actually addressing any of the points from the past 4 pages would be a slightly more useful argument to make.

"Just before" is the very last thing you do before rolling to wound. removing the model happens before this. Meaning the model with the clone field is already removed by the time your chance to negate the hit has come around.

We have a precise time for Clone Field, and we know that HS is after the to-hit is successful. We know this time is before Clone Field.

We know, absolutely, all of this. If you cannot address this without ignoring words, then you dont have an argument

Irdiumstern wrote:Heroic Sacrifice doesn't state that no to wound roll is made.

There is no S value, there is nothing indicating you are allowed to roll to wound.

In fact, it specifically states that you are making a "single attack".

Correct. And since the attack consists of a To-hit roll and a model removal, there is no to-wound step.

I don't see how you can possibly argue that Heroic Sacrifice has a precise point in that it triggers, it's just an if statement.

We do have a specific time. If the attack hits, remove models. There's no permission for delays.

Since we have no specific time, Clone field can activate and prevent the hit.

Except Clone Field does have a specific time. HS never allows that specific time.

mrspadge wrote:random thought on this topic.....

would a tyranid gargoyle ignore the clone field??

on a 6 to hit they auto wound - no wound roll.

Yes, that's what they're saying. No, it doesn't make sense.

All of this language and stuff is confusing me; GW didn't divide things up into "to-hit steps" and "to wound steps," just rolls. This isn't magic the gathering where an adequate analysis of words yields an answer.

Fluffily, however, I see Clone Field working, because he heroically sacrifices himself, but his last vision is a hologram winking out of existence to maniacal laughter.

Not that anyone here cares for fluff, I mean, why would it matter? This is SRS BUSINESS!

is this the first time two groups have gotten a old of 1 paragraph and decyphered it into 2 completely different things where despite both sides making sense they still insist that the others cannot be correct?

No, this is not the first time one side has entirely ignored one key phrase, and pretended it doesnt exist

Nor is this the first time that someone pulled timing into a warhammer 40k rule debate. Or took a minor phrase with a specific purpose to mean something much more general.

answering my earlier post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except theyre not.

Otherwise youre allowing Scout moves to happen before Infiltrate, or hell at any point during deployment.

"JUST BEFORE" means exactly that - JUST before. Not any time before, not a bit before but we'll let something else go after us, JUST before.

Saying theyre the same thing shows a critical lack of understranding of the English language

i know i'm a lowly, inept, uneducated peasant farmer who is more interested in what colour the grass is than understanding the England Speaky and should bow to the lessons of my (apparant) betters but my take on this is:



1) what happens "just before the roll to wound"???
- i'm going with (wait for it...) "the roll to hit"


2) find me a RAW step in between these 2 actions
- all heroic sacrifice does is bypass allocating/rolling for wounds, which have nothing to do with the clone fields anyway

3) unless there is a RULES step between these actions, then rolling to hit is "just before rolling" to wound.



and to throw a question at nosferatu1001 - dont the scout moves say to move after both sides have deployed (i seem to remember them even saying after infiltrators but dont have my rulebook to hand)?

My point being if the sides look like this.

Archon and 3 Incubi. Archon has clone field.
10 Space Marines. Sgt has powerfist.
Sgt. is the only guy in base to base with the archon. The archon rolls up 2 clones. The archon swings kiling 3. The Incubi then swing killing 3. The three marines swing back. Killing 2 Incubi. The Sgt. then swings with his PF. and hits once. The Archon ignores the hit. If you cannot roll to hit then how did that hit get ignored. Should the sgt. kill the archon on a 2+? There would not be a "to wound roll" so how can the hit be ignored? Clearly we normally would agree that it can be.

This isn't much different than the Archon rolling up some clones then using a huskblade to kill a Chamion. The champion rolls his psychic test. Makes an attack so he rolls to hit. The hit would be ignored. There is no difference.

Make Clones --- Archon kills ---- Other side (marines or champ with HS) swing and hit ----- hits are ignored ---- any hits that get through roll to wound

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, this is not the first time one side has entirely ignored one key phrase, and pretended it doesnt exist

well, it's not like they're ALL doing that, right? no?

Akroma06 wrote:My point being if the sides look like this.

Archon and 3 Incubi. Archon has clone field.
10 Space Marines. Sgt has powerfist.
Sgt. is the only guy in base to base with the archon. The archon rolls up 2 clones. The archon swings kiling 3. The Incubi then swing killing 3. The three marines swing back. Killing 2 Incubi. The Sgt. then swings with his PF. and hits once. The Archon ignores the hit. If you cannot roll to hit then how did that hit get ignored. Should the sgt. kill the archon on a 2+? There would not be a "to wound roll" so how can the hit be ignored? Clearly we normally would agree that it can be.

This isn't much different than the Archon rolling up some clones then using a huskblade to kill a Chamion. The champion rolls his psychic test. Makes an attack so he rolls to hit. The hit would be ignored. There is no difference.

Make Clones --- Archon kills ---- Other side (marines or champ with HS) swing and hit ----- hits are ignored ---- any hits that get through roll to wound

now I like you logic, well, I like the way you constructed your rebuttle anyway. all your opponents are just saying that the Clone Field is meant to jump between a point in time that was never imminent but you say it would never be imminent in the first place whether it came from a Heroic Sacrafice or a gunbut to the face.

why would people argue that we need to have an upcoming 'roll to wound' so we can ignore it? but we DO need a 'roll to wound' to ignore for the Clone Field to make sense, like, we need to read the whole rule. though that's not to say it doesn't make sense if we interpret it a different way. but we can't just devalue a particular line for our benefit. still, the rule is referencing a stage in play that it stops before it hits, then again, Heroic Sacrafice stops before it gets there as well.

I suppose you could take it as the Clone Field is used to stop the 'roll to wound' while Heroic Sacrafice doesn't try to wound you.

what are these Clones made of anyway? I'd wager that a Psyker could distinguish between a field of energy and an Eldar. frankly itd make more sense if he did take out the Archon.

Lotet wrote:what are these Clones made of anyway? I'd wager that a Psyker could distinguish between a field of energy and an Eldar. frankly itd make more sense if he did take out the Archon.

First, they're the best of the best....of the best SM. And Master Swordsmen. AND being psychers...I think they'd know which was a clone and which had a psychic presence.

Going by RAW (not stateing them again they've been posted enough) timeline states Archon is dead.

This debate has gone golden with people just making up crap now.

Pay attention folks,

HEROIC SACRIFICE IS A PSYCHIC POWER!

It takes the form of a hit that removes a model from play. It is not close combat. Being granted a attack does not make it close combat. That is how the psychic power is resolved and that is it. There is no counting, one Mississippi, two Mississippi to account for a theoretical roll to wound. There is no theoretical, if the model has protection from being removed from play, it still wounds.

Heroic Sacrifice is a psychic power and you employ said psychic power as it is written, NOTHING MORE and NOTHING LESS!

So an abbreviated Assault phase breakdown;

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound
3. Take saves
4. Remove Casualties

Now put in what happens with the Clone Field and Heroic Strike;

A. ".....When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect."

1. Roll to hit.

B. "The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made."

2. Roll to Wound.

3. Take Saves.

4./C./D. Remove casualties./C. "This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase."/D. "If the psychic test is successful, the brotherhood champion immediately makes a single attack... If this attack hits, both models are removed with no saves of any kind allowed."

Now take note where the Clone Field negates hits!

Now take note when the psychic power Heroic Sacrifice takes place!

The Clone Field does absolutely NOTHING against Heroic Sacrifice!

if heroic sacrifice didnt have to make a "to hit" roll for its effect then fine. i agree clone fields would be useless. but since it does. and since clone fields negate said to hit rolls.... is pretty simple. especially since both events occur in that obscured "after hits are rolled" and "before wound rolls" part. and as mentioned there is no specfic RAW that says what happens in that between phase time, and what order said happenings occur in. we have to simply abstract them.

i would argue that heroic sacrifice is simaler to other abilities such as drazhars "reposite" skill. that attack is a special out of initive attack drazhar makes under special circumstance (armor save passed on a 6). the attack rolls to hit and wound normally, but if directed at an archon, the archon could negate that hit with his clone field.

generally warhammer follows "if - then" logic.
if you hit then you roll to wound.
if you are wounded then roll a save
if you have no save or fail the save then you are removed.

heroic sacrifice and clone field still follow those rules but place new condidtions.

if champion is killed, then make a psyker test for heroic sacrifice.
if psyker test passed then roll to hit
if hit, then apply effect. in this case no need to roll a wound, just remove the model. it "skips" the to wound roll.

likewise

if archon is hit, then check to see if any clones "active"
if clones active, then number of active clones may negate equal number of chosen hits.

so to combine this process:

-archon makes attacks vrs champion. IF he hits THEN roll to wound.
-IF he wounds,THEN the champion makes saves
-IF saves are failed, or unavailable THEN remove the champion as a casultie
-IF the champion has HS, THEN make a psyker test
-IF pysker test passed THEN roll to hit the archon
-IF the archon takes a HIT, THEN his clone field can activate and negate the hit." nullifying it as if it did not exist"
-IF no clone field available, THEN remove both models from play.

(granted i inserted the clone field into remove, but that can be applied to any other ID attack on the archon)

once again the key points of this is that the champion makes a "to hit" attack in close combat. how he does this, (psyker, wargear, drugs, fancy paintjob etc) dont matter at all. the process of achieving the attack roll dose not matter. likewise, the clone field may negate any attack that the bearer chooses. not the first 2 or whatever, or the ones that beat his armor etc. the condidtions of use "are any the bearer chooses" since HS is a CC HIT - nullified. wound rolls dont matter because both rules NEVER GET TO THE WOUND STAGE, and as mentioned previously, there is no RAW for what happens when 2 things occur at aproximitly the same time. "just before wounds" is anything after "hits". it exists in that limbo of a phase. since HS does not specficlly remove clone fields, but clone fields negate hits, (wich is required by HS) then clone field works. if they both specficlly dealt with each other, such as for example if HS mentioned something like "the targeted model may not use any saves or wargear to stop this attack" then 100% HS beats clone field. but it does not, so there you have it.

For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

QFT

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.

your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.

TUNNEL VISION!!!

Heroic Sacrifice takes place when casualties are removed!!! It does not take place when rolling to hit or rolling to wound at initiative takes place!!

Seriously, read both rules and put them in the specific order of events!!

an interesting note, the just before to wound roll would be right after the remove the model eh?

DarthSpader wrote:your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Really? From the rules quoted in this thread,

...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made.

The rule tells you how many clone images are in effect and when said clone images negate hits. It does not tell you that they extend to ANY cc attack nor to the end of the round. In fact the rule is specific as to EXACTLY when the clones negate hits, "just before the roll to wound is made."

This discounts the fact that you are still considering Heroic Sacrifice a close combat attack when it is clearly labeled in the codex as a Psychic Power. This isn't like psychic shooting attacks that were FAQ to be defined as psychic shooting attacks with a criteria. There is no such thing as a psychic close combat attack that has been defined by a FAQ as far as I can tell.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.

TUNNEL VISION!!!

Heroic Sacrifice takes place when casualties are removed!!! It does not take place when rolling to hit or rolling to wound at initiative takes place!!

Seriously, read both rules and put them in the specific order of events!!

A) No need to scream.
B) So if Drazhar hits me with Riposte then I don't get a clone field either? HS makes an attack at that point in the initiative, after causalties granted, however it still needs to hit and after that which is just before rolling to wound I would ignore the hit with clone field.
C) I'm pretty sure I or someone else did that on the previous page.


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Brother Ramses wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Really? From the rules quoted in this thread,

...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made.

The rule tells you how many clone images are in effect and when said clone images negate hits. It does not tell you that they extend to ANY cc attack nor to the end of the round. In fact the rule is specific as to EXACTLY when the clones negate hits, "just before the roll to wound is made."

This discounts the fact that you are still considering Heroic Sacrifice a close combat attack when it is clearly labeled in the codex as a Psychic Power. This isn't like psychic shooting attacks that were FAQ to be defined as psychic shooting attacks with a criteria. There is no such thing as a psychic close combat attack that has been defined by a FAQ as far as I can tell.

It is a psychic power which as a part of its effect involves making a CC attack. So yes it is a psychic power and it's effect is a CC attack that does something different than the norm.

i dont think this is getting solved anytime soon without a FAQ. obviously both sides make arguments and both sides have valid points. problem being neither is really concrete. since im only repeating myself, like everyone else....would i be TFG to ask this be locked and lets move on?

DarthSpader wrote:i dont think this is getting solved anytime soon without a FAQ. obviously both sides make arguments and both sides have valid points. problem being neither is really concrete. since im only repeating myself, like everyone else....would i be TFG to ask this be locked and lets move on?

Honestly no you wouldn't...ask away.
I'm just gonna add that should this come up in game roll off on it. In a tourny ask the TO before hand, and as we all know don't argue with the TOs rulling.

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:For those that are far too intellectual or tunnel visioned to read,

Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound.

Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes a model when casualties are removed. The time when Clone Field negates hits has long since passed as it is done before rolling to wound and Heroic Sacrifice hits and removes models when casualties are removed.

So if I get hit with one PF attack as in my example then I can't ignore it since there would be no to wound roll? Yeah good luck convincing any DE player of that. Look I don't use this piece of wargear, in fact very few people do, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. The HS is a psychic power that is a close combat attack that if the guy is hit then... The clone field negates that hit. Just after to hit and just before to wound are the same time.

TUNNEL VISION!!!

Heroic Sacrifice takes place when casualties are removed!!! It does not take place when rolling to hit or rolling to wound at initiative takes place!!

Seriously, read both rules and put them in the specific order of events!!

A) No need to scream.
B) So if Drazhar hits me with Riposte then I don't get a clone field either? HS makes an attack at that point in the initiative, after causalties granted, however it still needs to hit and after that which is just before rolling to wound I would ignore the hit with clone field.
C) I'm pretty sure I or someone else did that on the previous page.


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Brother Ramses wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:your right it does. but if clone field still has uses left, it can negate ANY CC attack that ROUND.

HS:
-takes place during that round (granted at the end, but still in)
-makes a CC to hit roll
-clone field negates HITS DURING that round.

Really? From the rules quoted in this thread,

...When the bearer is in combat, roll a D3 at the beginning of each round of combat to represent how many clone images are in effect. The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that me may completely nullify, just before the roll to wound is made.

The rule tells you how many clone images are in effect and when said clone images negate hits. It does not tell you that they extend to ANY cc attack nor to the end of the round. In fact the rule is specific as to EXACTLY when the clones negate hits, "just before the roll to wound is made."

This discounts the fact that you are still considering Heroic Sacrifice a close combat attack when it is clearly labeled in the codex as a Psychic Power. This isn't like psychic shooting attacks that were FAQ to be defined as psychic shooting attacks with a criteria. There is no such thing as a psychic close combat attack that has been defined by a FAQ as far as I can tell.

It is a psychic power which as a part of its effect involves making a CC attack. So yes it is a psychic power and it's effect is a CC attack that does something different than the norm.

HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but isnt the heroic sacrifice classed as an out of sequence attack? The clone field would be used against normal attacks, and seems as you can't store up your allocation of clone field 'saves' they'd be used up or removed at the end of your opponents attacks...

On the other hand though... if you've struck first and killed him before he can strike back then maybe it would...

I smell an FAQ / errata coming...

Good question, I like it!

Brother Ramses wrote:HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Just deleting some of the quote cause its rediculously long.
It uses a close combat attack as its effect. That's what I said before. If not then you can make the attack at any time he dies then? I'm sorry but if hits like a cc attack, if it takes place during the assault phase, then guess what? It is a cc attack. It is the effect of the psychic power, granted not all of it. To say that it does not occur at the same initiative means nothing. I again put forward Drazhar's Riposte to counter.

I'm not making up rules. I'm simply explaining my side of the discussion.

Hm, yes, seems to have been brought up already

kitch102 wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but isnt the heroic sacrifice classed as an out of sequence attack? The clone field would be used against normal attacks, and seems as you can't store up your allocation of clone field 'saves' they'd be used up or removed at the end of your opponents attacks...

So is Drazhars Riposte. And yet the clone field would still work. Where does it say that it only works against normal attacks. It says that it nullifies a hit. That would be any hit in cc directed at the archon can be ignored if I choose and have a clone left.

kitch102 wrote:
On the other hand though... if you've struck first and killed him before he can strike back then maybe it would...

I smell an FAQ / errata coming...

Good question, I like it!

Sorry that was me...I had beans for lunch
Seriously though me too, and as per GWs recent trend of DE vs GK faqs we will get the short end again.

But HS only takes place if the character has lost combat and is about to die. (I'm not 100% on this, please correct if necessary).

If the archon has won combat then his CF will have dissipated, so HS could get through, as it's out of sequence.



It's all hypothetical until GW pass the hand of god over the rules and 1 up the marines again lol


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Akroma06 wrote:Seriously though me too, and as per GWs recent trend of DE vs GK faqs we will get the short end again.

Sooooooooooooo true

Actually it's not if he lost combat, its when the champ dies. So it doesn't matter if it was an archon at I7, a wych at I6, a warrior at I5, or an Incubi that went through terrain at I1 HS goes off when the guy dies and passes his test. The clones could still be there (if he has any left) since the combat is not over yet.

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Just deleting some of the quote cause its rediculously long.
It uses a close combat attack as its effect. That's what I said before. If not then you can make the attack at any time he dies then? I'm sorry but if hits like a cc attack, if it takes place during the assault phase, then guess what? It is a cc attack. It is the effect of the psychic power, granted not all of it. To say that it does not occur at the same initiative means nothing. I again put forward Drazhar's Riposte to counter.

I'm not making up rules. I'm simply explaining my side of the discussion.

Seriously man, read the rule.

"This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase."

That tells you EXACTLY when it can be used, NOT anytime that he dies.

And no, it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that uses a to hit and remove a model from play as the mechanic. As I said, there is no definition for a "psychic close combat attack power" like GW did for psychic shooting attacks. It can hit like a close combat attack, but it is a psychic power, not a close combat attack. You have zero standing against that.

However that is all a moot point because you cannot even answer to the fact that the Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound and that HS is a psychic power that hits when casualties are removed.

Yeah ok, my bad on the wording there but essentially that's what I was saying.

Hmmm... this one'll go on for days!

I don't think it'll take effect personally, as I'm pretty sure the CF would only be used "in sequence", and wouldn't carry on throughout the whole turn (if it did, then you should roll for the number of attacks that you can negate at the start of each turn and be able to use it against shooting attacks as well).

More than happy to be wrong though, would love for the marines to not be given the win on this like they were with the crucible of malediction (let's not start debating that one again though!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or Ramses could just end it now with a pretty damn valid point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I think given that it occurs in the assault phase it can be assumed that it is made as a closecombat attack. It doesn't specify it being an area of effect attack, so logically...

Brother Ramses wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:HS does not make any attack at any time in the initiative. The psychic power tells you when the psychic power takes place. It is when casualties are removed. Clone field tells you when it negates hits. It is before the roll to wound is made. Clone field does absolutely nothing against HS.

Stop creating rules to pigeonhole HS into close combat. It is not at an initiative step, it does not have an imaginary non-existent to wound roll, and it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that is resolved through a to hit and remove model from play mechanic, but that does not relegate it to being a close combat attack.

Just deleting some of the quote cause its rediculously long.
It uses a close combat attack as its effect. That's what I said before. If not then you can make the attack at any time he dies then? I'm sorry but if hits like a cc attack, if it takes place during the assault phase, then guess what? It is a cc attack. It is the effect of the psychic power, granted not all of it. To say that it does not occur at the same initiative means nothing. I again put forward Drazhar's Riposte to counter.

I'm not making up rules. I'm simply explaining my side of the discussion.

Seriously man, read the rule.

"This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either players' Assault phase."

That tells you EXACTLY when it can be used, NOT anytime that he dies.

And no, it is not a close combat attack. It is a psychic power that uses a to hit and remove a model from play as the mechanic. As I said, there is no definition for a "psychic close combat attack power" like GW did for psychic shooting attacks. It can hit like a close combat attack, but it is a psychic power, not a close combat attack. You have zero standing against that.

However that is all a moot point because you cannot even answer to the fact that the Clone Field negates hits before rolling to wound and that HS is a psychic power that hits when casualties are removed.

So if you wait until after that fights over then the clone field isn't active...so there is no discussion. How does the model hit using the psychic power. With a CLOSE COMBAT ATTACK. I have never said that is not a psychic power...EVER. In fact I have said that it IS a psychic power.
I have been saying along along that yes it his when casualties are removed and I know your going to say well then it is not before the to wound roll. Again I point you in the direction of my example involving the SM sgt with a PF. There would be no to wound roll there either.

The difference there being that to wound rolls are occasionally needed with PF's, but never with the HS.

Compare HS to Riposte:

Riposte:

Archon d3 for clones.

Both archon and Drazhar attack simultaneous.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits from Drazhar.

Roll to wound on both hits from archon and Drazhar.

Take saves.

Drazhar's Riposte kicks in on any saves of 6's.

Drazhar rolls to hit with Riposte attacks.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Heroic Strike:

Archon rolls d3 for clones.

Archon attacks first.

Roll to wound.

Brotherhood Champion takes saves if possible, in this case he dies.

Remove as casualty; Take psychic test.

Roll to hit.

If hit, remove archon and brotherhood champion.

Now notice what is part of Riposte and what is NOT part of Heroic Sacrifice?

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Even while Drazhar's attack is made outside of the normal procedure for resolving an attack made in the Assault phase (similar to Heroic Sacrifice), the similarity ends there.

Riposte still requires you to roll to wound.

Riposte is not labeled as a, "Psychic Power".

Heroic Sacrifice does not cause wounds.

So would you never get the clone if only one hits? There would never be a to wound roll if only one ever hit...say an imobilised dreadnought with no arms. So can you not use the CF then? Good luck telling a DE player that.

With that said I really kind hope this gets locked in that there won't be a decision and there hasn't been for 5 freaking pages, but if its not after the weekend I'll be back to discuss it some more.


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Brother Ramses wrote:Compare HS to Riposte:

Riposte:

Archon d3 for clones.

Both archon and Drazhar attack simultaneous.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits from Drazhar.

Roll to wound on both hits from archon and Drazhar.

Take saves.

Drazhar's Riposte kicks in on any saves of 6's.

Drazhar rolls to hit with Riposte attacks.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Heroic Strike:

Archon rolls d3 for clones.

Archon attacks first.

Roll to wound.

Brotherhood Champion takes saves if possible, in this case he dies.

Remove as casualty; Take psychic test.

Roll to hit.

If hit, remove archon and brotherhood champion.

Now notice what is part of Riposte and what is NOT part of Heroic Sacrifice?

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Even while Drazhar's attack is made outside of the normal procedure for resolving an attack made in the Assault phase (similar to Heroic Sacrifice), the similarity ends there.

Riposte still requires you to roll to wound.

Riposte is not labeled as a, "Psychic Power".

Heroic Sacrifice does not cause wounds.

My point was that Drazhar happens out of the "normal" steps for things. He attacks again after to wound. Otherwise he has no save to make.

Akroma06 wrote:So would you never get the clone if only one hits? There would never be a to wound roll if only one ever hit...say an imobilised dreadnought with no arms. So can you not use the CF then? Good luck telling a DE player that.

With that said I really kind hope this gets locked in that there won't be a decision and there hasn't been for 5 freaking pages, but if its not after the weekend I'll be back to discuss it some more.


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Brother Ramses wrote:Compare HS to Riposte:

Riposte:

Archon d3 for clones.

Both archon and Drazhar attack simultaneous.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits from Drazhar.

Roll to wound on both hits from archon and Drazhar.

Take saves.

Drazhar's Riposte kicks in on any saves of 6's.

Drazhar rolls to hit with Riposte attacks.

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Heroic Strike:

Archon rolls d3 for clones.

Archon attacks first.

Roll to wound.

Brotherhood Champion takes saves if possible, in this case he dies.

Remove as casualty; Take psychic test.

Roll to hit.

If hit, remove archon and brotherhood champion.

Now notice what is part of Riposte and what is NOT part of Heroic Sacrifice?

Before rolling to wound, archon would negate x number of hits (granted if any clones are even left).

Even while Drazhar's attack is made outside of the normal procedure for resolving an attack made in the Assault phase (similar to Heroic Sacrifice), the similarity ends there.

Riposte still requires you to roll to wound.

Riposte is not labeled as a, "Psychic Power".

Heroic Sacrifice does not cause wounds.

My point was that Drazhar happens out of the "normal" steps for things. He attacks again after to wound. Otherwise he has no save to make.

Drazhar's Riposte triggers another, "before rolling to wound" which is all the Clone Field cares about. Heroic Sacrifice NEVER triggers the, "before rolling to wound" instance. That is why they are different.

I have no idea where you are going by continuing to bring up the powerfist example. Despite being initiative 1, rolling to hit and rolling to wound still happen before remove casualties when Heroic Sacrifice happens.

Akroma06 wrote:So would you never get the clone if only one hits? There would never be a to wound roll if only one ever hit...say an imobilised dreadnought with no arms.

Correct, as the PF insta-kills the archon as it's double his toughness. It bypasses the to wound roll, which is where the CF would be used. It doesn't negate hits, it negate wounds.

Good luck telling a DE player that.

I am a DE player

Please explain how a powerfist does not still roll to wound against an archon.

Kitch102 may have made a mistake there... lol

kitch102 wrote:Kitch102 may have made a mistake there... lol

Yea, but that doesn't explain what the hell Akroma is talking about.

I'm a bit confused myself and could definitely do with grabbing the dex, but it's the bedroom and I dont wana wake the missus up!

The pf scenario would be, I believe as follows;

Archon attacks, wounds, does not kill.

Opponent attacks with pf, scores (say) 2 hits. The archon has rolled 2 clone field things and applies one to each hit.

1st attack fails to wound. No clone 'save' needed, clone save is discarded.

2nd hit wounds. And this is where another point of debate may come about. Will it a) ignore the clone save, as the wound roll is doulbe the archons toughness or b) does the archon get to take the save as theoretically the opponent is hitting 'shadows'. Which is why we need errata, and what I misunderstood in Akromas post.

Back on topic:

The Archon attacks his opponent last, whose attacks he survived by using all but 1 of the clone saves that he generated this turn (it wasn't required)

Archon kills opponent. Opponent passes psychic test and uses heroic strike. Next point of debate, which brought us on to the PF scenario: do you get to use the left over clone field save, or not, to try and avoid this. The arguements for both sides are: for) you roll the save before wounds are generated, against) you dont roll to wound for a HS attack, it just needs to hit. For) The clone field is intended to stop you hitting the right target, so the save should count Against) rules as written....

Its the fallacy that, if you remove the one hit (or all of them) and nothing else hits you at that I step, then the illogical claim is that you cannot trigger Clone Field as you will now no longer roll to wound

Its the smae fallacy as with Feel No Pain and ignoring wounds, and has exactly as much validity

in CC casualties are removed at each initive step are they not? I7 goes - attacks resolved then initi 6 and so on down to init 1. models removed during those init steps are then counted up afterwards. so technically if the champ was removed at init 7 step, or even init 6, there is still plenty of fighting left. so its *not* out of sequence.

check out page 39 BRB:

"allocating wounds"
"after determinging the number of wounds inflicted against a unit at a particular initiave value, the unit takes saves and casaulties are removed as detailed below ... "

"Removing casulties"
"... if a model becomes a casualty before it has an opurtunity to attack then it may not strike back..."

therefore: everything is resolved at init order. its not roll all attacks at once, wound all at once, remove casaulties all at once and so on like shooting. while it does refrence wound allocation akin to shooting attacks, like hitting diversified multi wound models etc, it all takes place at multiple initive orders. so if you have init 7 archon, init 6 incubi, init 5 champ, and init 4 knights, you get to do the 'hit/wound/save/remove' stages four seperate times at each init.

finally, as mentioned to death - champ requires a hit roll. it also happens DURING the phase, because as soon as the champ is removed at an initive order his ability can trigger. so if hes killed at init 6 step, there is still inits 5,4,3,2,1, to resolve in the normal fashion. the fact that it occurs AFTER or WHILE the champ is being removed has no effect on other inits, and it dosent change the fact that its still a close combat attack and 'to hit' roll made DURING the fight. clone field allows disregarding of ANY attack during the fight. (providing he has available clones, and hasent used them up vrs other attacks)

as a further example:

shooting phase****
assault phase
declare charges - > defenders react
**archon rolls for clone field**
I7: archon (assuming he has highest init vrs GK) makes his attacks and as the champ is an IC can allocate. the archon ends up killing the champ.
***HS kicks in, champ makes his special attack***
I6: klaivex or wych or whatever attacks against GK/resolve
I5: other DE attack/resolve
I4: GK attack/resolve
I1: powerfists etc attack/resolve
***end of fight***
total casualties and take LD checks as required.

so in that example the HS attack meets the requirments of
A: having the champion removed as a casultie during either assault phase (as per above, this can happen at any init step)
B: requires a sucsessful "to hit roll"
C: the clone field has no requirments other then being "hit" in close combat. since the fight still has other init steps to resolve, the fight is ongoing (including more "to hit rolls" from other models attacking other models)
D: so clone fields requirments are met, as is HS, therefore clonefield can negate HS, since clonefield has no restrictions on when it can be used. it simply stops the HIT.

the reason for its wording, is because if character A has 12 attacks icomprised of 7 power wep, 3 normal and 2 ID, and archon has 2 clones, he can wait to see what attacks actually hit him. and choose to negate those he feels pose the most threat. once hes decided, then the ones that go through are resolved with wound rolls/saves and so on.

if heroic sacrifce requires a to hit roll, the archon could interupt it with his field, negating the hit BEFORE it gets to the remove model stage, because in order to remove the models, you must make a sucsessful hit, and the clone field negates that hit as if it never happened.

additonally, since this is the case if HS did not require the champ to be already removed, he would still be in the fight since the effect of HS is to remove both models. were the champ not already in process of being removed as a requirment for the power, the entire thing dosent happen and any effect on the champ would also be negated (being removed)

What DarthSpader just said.

The CF pg. 62 DE Codex: "...The result is the number of hits upon the bearer that he may completely nullify that round, just before the roll to wound. The bearer may choose which attacks are nullified. Once the roll to wound is made, though, there's no going back, so choose which attacks to nullify carefully!" emphasis mine.

The key phrase is Hits are nullified. The timing for the wound roll is in there so that players don't decide to remove a hit after it wounds, see the clarifying second sentence.

The only timing posed in the HS is to "immediately" make an attack. It doesn't specify exactly when the removal of the models takes place, we only know they are removed before the next initiative step.

CF works.

My issue here is it is a psycic power. Would you be able to negate gift of chaos? If you can justify it negating the psychic power then I agree wholeheartedly weith your argument but I havent seen where it says you can negate hits caused by powers. It just seems like it negates cc attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:My issue here is it is a psycic power. Would you be able to negate gift of chaos? If you can justify it negating the psychic power then I agree wholeheartedly weith your argument but I havent seen where it says you can negate hits caused by powers. It just seems like it negates cc attacks.

EDIT-- also, if I am not mistaken heroic sacrifice takes place after the combat is resolved (at least thats how me and my buddies have always played it). If so then does the clones ability carry over?

This whole thread is confusing.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:if I am not mistaken heroic sacrifice takes place after the combat is resolved

This is the issue I have seen.
The whole bit about "just before" to-wound is a lark. There is no to-wound roll for an ignored hit that must be ignored before the to-wound roll.

edits for assininity.

And, as pointed out, that is the exact fallacious argument used against FNP. It has no place here.

You get to negate a hit, just before you roll to wound
Prior to tht HS removes your model, leaving you UNABLE to use clone field -youre already dead and gone

Stop ignoring words that are inconvenient.

HS Takes place when the champion is removed as a casualtie at the END OF THAT INIT STEP. not the end of the whole fight. And the fact. Its a psychic power means nothing. It's simply the mechanism that allows the special otherwise nonexistent attack. What. If HS was an innate special ability? What. If it was war gear? It still is all the same thing - a mechanism that allows a special out of sequence attack. (out of sequence because he would not normally be allowed to make an attack at this point)

Its also not a close combat attack, it just requires him to make a "to hit" based on weapon skill - we dont have the equivalent of "Psychic Close Combat Attacks" like we do for PSAs

So, thats 3 issues. You never have a to-wound, you never will have a to-wound, and it isnt a close combat attack

So....it uses an opposed WS check like a close combat attack, and the power itself states that the champion makes an attack.... And it happens during the close combat phase.... But it's NOT a close combat attack?

If it's not a close combat attack then it can't be made during close combat when the champ would be removed (during init steps) so it dose not happen at all and the entire power has to way of working and can never be used. Huzah! For useless powers!

And clone field still stops it. :p

No, ts a psychic power that happens during the close combat phase, like cleansing flame.

You have yet to prove how clone field stops something when the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate it

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, ts a psychic power that happens during the close combat phase, like cleansing flame.

You have yet to prove how clone field stops something when the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate it

I have read all 6 pages, and Nos is correct. Clone field can not stop HS, since " the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate[the hit]"

Unless you can find something that proves clone field can stop it, it can't.

Clone field negates hits just before rolling to wound, by that time the model is removed because of HS saying if you hit the model is removed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, ts a psychic power that happens during the close combat phase, like cleansing flame.

You have yet to prove how clone field stops something when the model with clone field is already removed by the time they would get to negate it

Actually the FAQ says cleansing flame is a close combat attack.

But anyway I digress it doesn't work for one reason and one reason only the fact that clone field says "just before the roll to wound" this is the problem cause HS doesn't go past the "rolling to hit" step and since it just says "just before the roll to wound" which unless otherwise stated must happen in the "rolling to wound" step since that is when you roll to wound. Note: clone field would work if it said "after rolling to hit" instead of "just before the roll to wound", since the having to roll before wounds are rolled is already there.

I personally would allow clone field to work against HS in non tournament environments and also ask your opponent how they would do it at the stard of the game so you can get it straightened out before it happens which can ruin a game


And a thing on the side

nosferatu1001 wrote:Its also not a close combat attack, it just requires him to make a "to hit" based on weapon skill

It never actually says what you roll to hit with, so if it is indeed not a close combat attack you can and should use BS and a gun. You also assumed it was a close combat attack while saying it wasn't.

and your ignoring the second part of the clone field rules. clone fields IGNORE THE HIT, plain and simple. the reason its worded "before wounds" is so that you dont wait and see what hits actually wound or not, because then its too late. you negate the hit. if the hit dosent happen, the models not removed because the hit never occured. it should even work against clensing flame if such is a CC attack. clone field negates anything that requires a "hit" roll. this whole "just after hit/just before wound" nonsense has no actual rules ANYWHERE. its a limbo phase that people assume/make up exists.

since there are no rules, honestly they occur pretty much at the same time, so somethings gonna give. and knowing GW when such situations occur roll a die to determine.

im not gonna furthar repeat myself - i outlined the process and the rules in BRB for close combat. i also pointed out that this whole "just before wounds" thing is not anything more then a secondary descriptor, that also includes "because if you roll to wound its too late" normally a hit is rolled just before a wound, and a wound just after a hit. HS does not require a wound, just an effect BASED ON MAKING A SUCSESSFUL HIT. (if you roll to hit and miss guess what???) clone field negates THE HIT....

DarthSpader wrote:and your ignoring the second part of the clone field rules. clone fields IGNORE THE HIT, plain and simple. the reason its worded "before wounds" is so that you dont wait and see what hits actually wound or not, because then its too late. you negate the hit. if the hit dosent happen, the models not removed because the hit never occured. it should even work against clensing flame if such is a CC attack. clone field negates anything that requires a "hit" roll. this whole "just after hit/just before wound" nonsense has no actual rules ANYWHERE. its a limbo phase that people assume/make up exists.

since there are no rules, honestly they occur pretty much at the same time, so somethings gonna give. and knowing GW when such situations occur roll a die to determine.

im not gonna furthar repeat myself - i outlined the process and the rules in BRB for close combat. i also pointed out that this whole "just before wounds" thing is not anything more then a secondary descriptor, that also includes "because if you roll to wound its too late" normally a hit is rolled just before a wound, and a wound just after a hit. HS does not require a wound, just an effect BASED ON MAKING A SUCSESSFUL HIT. (if you roll to hit and miss guess what???) clone field negates THE HIT....

l...

I agree but you have the problem of Just before roll to wound which until GW says otherwise is just before rolling to wound you can't do that until the to wound stage or it would say before going to "rolling to wound" and unfortunately HS resolves in the to hit step and since to hit is before to wound he's gone. On a side note "after rolling to hit" is always before "before rolling to wound".



Clone field could work if it has the right wording (which as i said before is "after rolling to hit") or if HS inflicted an automatic wound causing instant death which cannot be saved against.

Darth - no, we're not ignoring it. Not at all. In fact, I defy you to find a point in which I have said Clone Field doesnt negate hits

What you repeatedly and unerringly ignore, pretending it doesnt matter as if they just wrote a phrase for the hell of it, is that you are only given permission to negate the hit at one, very very very specific point in time. A point in time that is after Heroic Sacrifice has already removed your model

Yes, CF ignores hits. Shame by the time you are given PERMISSION to ignore the hit you're already dead and gone, isnt it.

Also, reported because apparently you cant argue without insults.

I think I'm missing the part of the thread where Darth is insulting anyone, Nos

Darth's points make sense to me, GW could have (and probably should have) worded this as you choose which hit to negate before that hit is rolled to wound.

Imagine this in a movie, the hero's swinging a sword at the villain, who has a clone field. There's 2 holographic representations of the villain, giving 3 potential targets. The hero hits each target once. Note that the villain does not know which hit is on which target, he just chooses to negate a certain dice roll....

Villain negates die roll 1 & 3, which are automatically ignored / nullified etc. This represents the heroes attacks slicing through a hologram / smoke / thin air etc etc.

Attack 2 wounds, representing that the hero made contact with the real villain. The villain can not then decide that he wants to take a clone field save against this hit / wound

Notice the two edits, that removed the insulting line, after i posted?

The argument may make some kind of sense, but its not one based on following the rules written down in plain English, but on ignoring part of the phrase and assuming its essentially filler. It isnt.

kitch102 wrote:I think I'm missing the part of the thread where Darth is insulting anyone, Nos

Yeah i was thinking that too.

Darth's points make sense to me, GW could have (and probably should have) worded this as you choose which hit to negate before that hit is rolled to wound.

But it's not, which is the whole point, due to either GW not thinking of interations between codexes out or in production or not caring. Them having a god book would be nice so then all like abilities are actually alike.

The real issue is going to come down to who want to argue it until the game dies and GW's awful wording of the GK codex in general. Nos is right. Because there is no roll to wound there is no timing for an ability that says before the roll to wound. The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind. In that state a mere illusion is not going to stop him.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind.

According to that logic, all psychic shooting attacks would also get to ignore Spore Cloud, because after all, my psychic mind would not be affected by a cloud of spores obscuring my enemies.

Additionally, wraithlords/guards "do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits" (Eldar codex, pg46). Since holographic clones are not "spirits", does my wraithlord ignore clone field in CC? Pretty sure the answer is NO.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The real issue is going to come down to who want to argue it until the game dies and GW's awful wording of the GK codex in general. Nos is right. Because there is no roll to wound there is no timing for an ability that says before the roll to wound. The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind. In that state a mere illusion is not going to stop him.

Really I always see it as Optimus' heroic "NEVERRR..." uppercut on Megatron from the 1987 animated film

Happyjew wrote:

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The heoric sacrafice is guided not by the GK's eyes but his psychic mind.

According to that logic, all psychic shooting attacks would also get to ignore Spore Cloud, because after all, my psychic mind would not be affected by a cloud of spores obscuring my enemies.

Additionally, wraithlords/guards "do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits" (Eldar codex, pg46). Since holographic clones are not "spirits", does my wraithlord ignore clone field in CC? Pretty sure the answer is NO.

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

curtis wrote:

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

Perhaps. Or perhaps some interpret it "creatively" to lever an advantage.

Darth, throughout your little diatribe, you conveniently left out the very RAW that destroys your argument, "before rolling to wound." Not only does it destroy your argument, but it just makes you appear dishonest in your argument because you are choosing not to present all the facts of the argument.

But to reiterate ALL the facts we can play out both scenarios;

Archon assaults 10 GH with one powerfist.

Archon rolls d3 for clones and gets 3.

Archon attacks at initiative 7, killing 6 and leaving 3 regular GH and one with a powerfist.

GH failed their counter-attack so 3 GH attack back with chainswords for a total of 6 attacks at initiative 4. They hit with 2.

Space Wolves Player: I am going to roll to wound with 2 chainsword attacks.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE 1 OF THOSE CHAINSWORD HITS.

Space Wolves player rolls 1 to wound roll, wounds, and Archon saves.

Space Wolves player rolls 1 powerfist attacks at initiative 1 and hits.

Space Wolves Player: I am going to roll to wound with 1 powerfist attack.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE THAT POWERFIST HIT.

Space Wolves player hangs his head in shame. Dark Eldar player orders pizza for his archon.

Now let us look at the issue at hand. Archon assaults 5 man Strike Squad with attached Brotherhood Champion.

Archon rolls d3 for clones and is on fire getting 3 again.

Archon is in base to base with Brotherhood champion and Strike squad. He splits his 6 attacks evenly at initiative 7; killing the Brotherhood Champion and 3 of the Strike Squad.

The Brotherhood Champion takes and passes his psychic test for Heroic Sacrifice.

He rolls to hit against the Archon and hits.

Grey Knight Player: I successfully hit your archon, remove him from play while I remove my Brotherhood Champion from play.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE THAT HEROIC SACRIFICE HIT.

Grey Knight Player: I don't roll to wound with Heroic Sacrifice, I successfully hit your archon, so remove him from play.

Dark Eldar Player: <emo>

Remaining Strike Squad eat Archon's pizza in memory of Brotherhood Champion.

The above is RAW to the letter. I have not deviated from ANY of the rules as written as far as I can tell. Please anyone that thinks that Clone Field negates Heroic Sacrifice, by all means point out in the example I have given how it works.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

curtis wrote:

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

Perhaps. Or perhaps some interpret it "creatively" to lever an advantage.

No, rules and rule disputes should be both impartial and unbiased as soon as you go into "I feel it should..."s and "this fluff says..."s you're no longer sticking to impartial and unbiased rules and also leads to the (valid) slippery sloop which i quoted. Sometimes I wish GW had comprehensive rules like magic the gathering.

curtis wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

curtis wrote:

You should never argue from fluff cause everyone interoperates it differently.

Perhaps. Or perhaps some interpret it "creatively" to lever an advantage.

No, rules and rule disputes should be both impartial and unbiased as soon as you go into "I feel it should..."s and "this fluff says..."s you're no longer sticking to impartial and unbiased rules and also leads to the (valid) slippery sloop which i quoted. Sometimes I wish GW had comprehensive rules like magic the gathering.

And sometimes I wish people wouldn't care so much about a game of toy soldiers and instead followed the rules and 4+'d it.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Now let us look at the issue at hand. Archon assaults 5 man Strike Squad with attached Brotherhood Champion.

Archon rolls d3 for clones and is on fire getting 3 again.

Archon is in base to base with Brotherhood champion and Strike squad. He splits his 6 attacks evenly at initiative 7; killing the Brotherhood Champion and 3 of the Strike Squad.

The Brotherhood Champion takes and passes his psychic test for Heroic Sacrifice.

He rolls to hit against the Archon and hits.

Grey Knight Player: I successfully hit your archon, remove him from play while I remove my Brotherhood Champion from play.

Dark Eldar Player: BEFORE YOU ROLL TO WOUND, I AM GOING TO NEGATE THAT HEROIC SACRIFICE HIT.

Grey Knight Player: I don't roll to wound with Heroic Sacrifice, I successfully hit your archon, so remove him from play.

Dark Eldar Player: <emo> Fortunately, you don't have to roll to wound - I negate the hit. You didn't successfully hit. You'd never have to roll to wound with Clone Field.

Brotherhood champion despairs at death as he murders a hologram

The above is RAW to the letter. I have not deviated from ANY of the rules as written as far as I can tell. Please anyone that thinks that Clone Field negates Heroic Sacrifice, by all means point out in the example I have given how it works.

Fixed that for you.

the point i am making is that the clone field happens after the hit roll and before the wound rolls. HS kicks in after the hit roll.


the timing of both is "in the middle" of your normal roll to hit then roll to wound process. the brb says absoultly nothing of this in between time frame. once you hit, you progress to wounds. if something happens to break that sequence it could be worded either as "after hits are made" or "before wound rolls". its like saying 7 comes before 8, and 8 comes after 7. we dont have any "whole" number that exists between them. we do have decimals and fractions etc, but we are focusing on whole numbers.


my argument is that since both pretty much occur at the same time, (because HS REQUIRES the hit to have an effect, and without a hit you have no removal), and since clone field directly states it NEGATES "any hit of the bearers choosing" but HS does not directly (aside from model removal) affect or negate the clone field the CF should work. plus, the key wording of HS is "IF the champion hits..." its otherwise treated exactly as a CC attack in all regards. "make an attack against an enemy in base contact" by definition thats a close combat attack.

the clone field "may completly nullify that round".

i would argue that the prhasing "just before the wound roll" exists as a furthar clarification to prevent players from waiting to see what hits wound etc. and as mentioned, what happens just before the wound roll is THE HIT roll. RAW there is nothing that happens between them! you roll to hit, i negate the hit, the hit does not exist, so the champ goes and archon keeps on swinging. HS does not on the other hand say immiedaitly remove a the same time you hit. its hit -> THEN remove... just like hit -> THEN roll to wound. removal of models has just replaced the wound step, and would be the same sort of mechanic.

the only other way i can see this otherwise, is a diceoff before the game. this kind of argument is not worth wrecking a game over. personally my group has already voted to the effect im arguing, (wich may be why im sticking to my guns here) but thats not to say your groups have to follow. rule it however the heck you want.... but without a FAQ this is not going to be resolved untill someone can cite RAW that explains what happens between making/allocating hits and rolling wounds.

The point youre making is that youre ignoring the phrase "just before" and assuming it means nothing.

You have a precise time the clone field works, and you know, for a fact, this occurs after HS works.

Your consistent ignorance of the rules undermines your argument, entirely.

Unit - oddly, TMIR is less than useful on a rule discussion forum. So much so its in the rules you agree to abide by - ahve a quick look at the Tenets of YMDC.

Again Nos is spot on.

we know when HS works.

we know when Clone Field works works.

one works just after you hit, the other works just before you roll to wound.

The flow chart looks like this:

To hit roll - Heroic Sacrifice (If you hit Model is removed).

thats it, HS does not roll to wound. even if id did the flow chart would look like this:

To hit roll - Heroic Sacrifice (If you hit Model is removed) - (Just before rolling to wound use CF) - To wound roll.

Been reading this thread since the day I posted it, and I think it's time for a mod to lock it.

There will be no definitive answer for this, because RAW, the two events in question happen at the exact same time. The roll to hit is just before the roll to wound. Think about it, when is the last time you've played a game and there was any step between rolling to hit and rolling to wound? Go ahead and picture it in your mind. You throw the dice to hit, scoop out the ones that missed and roll the remaining to wound. There is no extra steps in there, except maybe asking your opponent for a reminder of your model's toughness. After getting hit, and just before getting wounded are the exact same thing. So as the rules stand now, there is no definitive answer, and we can only hope for an FAQ.

Just one thing to say before I walk away from this thread, never to click upon it again. Calling someone else ignorant, or name calling in general undermines your own argument. Not that of your opponents. It just makes you look like a moron going for an ad hominem attack because you can't support your argument without mudslinging. Long and short, it makes you look like an donkey-cave, and people are far less likely to listen to you when you look like an donkey-cave. Whether you're right or not doesn't matter.

Food for thought.

Now, lock please.

curtis wrote:
But anyway I digress it doesn't work for one reason and one reason only the fact that clone field says "just before the roll to wound" this is the problem cause HS doesn't go past the "rolling to hit" step and since it just says "just before the roll to wound" which unless otherwise stated must happen in the "rolling to wound" step since that is when you roll to wound. Note: clone field would work if it said "after rolling to hit" instead of "just before the roll to wound", since the having to roll before wounds are rolled is already there.

I think everyone is hung up on the "before wounds are rolled" portion of the rule. Based upon the full quote posted in the 5th page, it seems to my reading that the phrasing of "before wounds are rolled" is stated specifically to prevent someone from waiting for the wound roll, seeing a 1 come up, or another failed result, and then not have to use up a clone.

I don't think that phrasing has anything to do with following or not following the close combat sequence.

And I don't agree with the argument about "when casualties are removed" and triggering the psychic power. If the archon kills the champ in I7, then that's when that casualty is removed, potentially in the middle of an ongoing close combat.

So I believe Clone Field works, because you can allocate it to the "hit" that the champion makes, and irrelevant that the psychic power doesn't roll to wound.

(By this same logic, the clone field wouldn't work on the old Rending. A cc hit by a genestealer "hits" on a 6 and auto wounds w no save. Since there is no "to wound" roll, clearly the clone field wouldn't work? Right?)

As with anything, my 2 cents.

I think you can still use the Clone Field.

Mainly because I think it would be really odd if you couldn't use the Clone Field against Gargoyles' Blinding Venom, which also bypasses the roll to wound.

I would argue that the determination of exactly "when" the clone field nullifies the attack is irrelevant.

Clone field gives the user a "number of hits upon the bearer that he may completely nullify that round, just before the roll to wound." Codex: Dark Eldar p. 62

Clone field doesn't make hits into misses. It can't go back in time and un-roll the die. It just stops the hit from proceeding on to the roll to wound stage of the hit-wound-save process. But Heroic Sacrifice doesn't wound anyway:

"If the Psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died. If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed. If the attack misses, only the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty." Codex: GK p. 26.

There are only three possible outcomes to Heroic Sacrifice:
1. The psychic test is failed and it has no effect.
2. The psychic test is passed, the attack misses, and the champion is removed.
3. The psychic test is passed, the attack hits, and both models are removed.

There are no wounds, no saves, etc. The rule asks only whether the attack hit. It doesn't care one bit what happens to the attack after that. Note that in order for Clone Field to apply, the attack must already be a hit. As soon as the attack hits, heroic sacrifice is triggered and the effect will apply regardless of whether the attack is later nullified or not.

So, take your pick - if heroic sacrifice applies first, the attack hit and both models are removed. If clone field applies first, the attack still hit, but it is now "completely nullified" and doesn't wound, but heroic sacrifice triggers anyway, and both models are removed.

Hope this helps!
-GK

Just before does nto change any timing since there is not an actual order of operations. (Outside of bullet points that agree with both sides)

The fallacy in another issue has no real bearing on this one unless you are allowing precident and unrelated rules.

Saying that a to-wound roll is necessary for a to-hit to be ignored is also a fallacy. That is not stated anywhere.

When there is not a to-hit roll made, after the to-hit is just before the (non-existant) to-wound roll.

Basically I think I agree with the folks saying it should work because there is NOT a requirement for a to-wound roll to be made for a clone field to negate a hit, and with the folks that says it does not because that whole line of logic is irrelevant.

ymmv

--
--
As an odd, unrelated, and probably refuatable response. . .Infiltrate applies to deployment after friends and foes are deployed. Does this mean that if the foe does not deploy but goes entirely into reserves the infiltrators show up only after all of the emey is deployed? There is not "before the game" text invovled with INFILTRATE*.

Or do you think Reserves are deployed?

The OP is right. No one is gaiing any ground here and no one is changing anyone's mind. Chalk this impasse up to GW's sloppy writing of the GK codex and go about your merry way arguing with your opponent (preferably before the game) or making a random roll. That appears the only way it's going to get solved.

how many times has that been said on this thread?

I think a bigger problem is that induvidual members on either side aren't saying the exact same thing so they end up creating easy to combat replies because they're not as clever and saying things that thier allies disagree with.

It's definatly possiable. It's also possiable that both sides claim that the others argument makes no sense and is irrelevant. The discussion dosent progress and becomes a pointless "your wrong..." "No your wrong..."

Either way at this point all we are doing is wasting time.

well, really it's all of the above

it's like I always say "it can be more than one thing"

Finally, something everyone should be able to agree on lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, inspiration.
@ The OP, if you ever truly need an answer as to if the clone field works or not, how about meeting in the middle.

Mind you this is just a peacekeeping idea and has no grounding in the actuall rules.

Once you roll your d3 declare that one will specifically be held for the heroic sacrifice hit. If I was playing you with my GK's I, personally, would find this an acceptable compromise. Take it for what its worth.

Locked at OP's request... and rightfully so by the look of it...