Just wondering if there has been any other being that came close to The Emperors psychic might. I was thinking Eldrad, but I doubt it...

So yeah, that's about it, shoot away!

Tzeetch.

The CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.
/Thread

The Overmind.

Leonus Cohol wrote:Tzeetch.

This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Me

Brother Coa wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Tzeetch.

This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Spoiler:

I don't know about the C'Tan dough. But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

They aren't psykers in anyway, they hate the warp etc. etc.

The guy painting him.


Also the C'tan enslave the Necrons.

Kasrkai wrote:The guy painting him.

Uhh........what?

Kasrkai wrote:Also the C'tan enslave the Necrons.

.......Again........what? I think you might want to read BrotherCoa's quote again.

Brother Coa wrote:

Spoiler:

But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

Brother Coa wrote:This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Spoiler:

I don't know about the C'Tan dough. But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

The C'tan aren't psykers.

And a weakened, still feeding Void Dragon almost killed the Emperor when they fought.

I don't think the Chaos Gods count as psykers, to be honest. But if Warp gods count, then throw some of the Eldar deities in there, as well as Gork and Mork.

But other than the actual gods, the second most powerful psyker in history, behind the Emperor, is Magnus the Red.

depends who is writing the fluff of the next eldar dex, if it is Ward you can bet that the Emporer will be lower in the rankings

Brother Coa wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Tzeetch.

This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Spoiler:

I don't know about the C'Tan dough. But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

RUMORS, Coa. Rumors. For all we know, the Necrons could have hugs for weapons.

Chowderhead wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Tzeetch.

This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Spoiler:

I don't know about the C'Tan dough. But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

RUMORS, Coa. Rumors. For all we know, the Necrons could have hugs for weapons.

Darling, i told you not to release any details about the new codex...
Mr Ward wouldbe very angry if he found out...

Chowderhead wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Tzeetch.

This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Spoiler:

I don't know about the C'Tan dough. But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

RUMORS, Coa. Rumors. For all we know, the Necrons could have hugs for weapons.

And new Black Templars have flowers for Chainswords

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Tzeetch.

This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Spoiler:

I don't know about the C'Tan dough. But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

RUMORS, Coa. Rumors. For all we know, the Necrons could have hugs for weapons.

And new Black Templars have flowers for Chainswords

And those hugs would still outpower a Tau Railgun, and be assault 8.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Tzeetch.

This. And probably the other 3 Chaos Gods. But noone else.

Spoiler:

I don't know about the C'Tan dough. But according to new rumors they are slaves to Necrons so - I will say just no.

RUMORS, Coa. Rumors. For all we know, the Necrons could have hugs for weapons.

And new Black Templars have flowers for Chainswords

And those hugs would still outpower a Tau Railgun, and be assault 8.

assault 8 hugs?!?! WERE DOOMED!!!!!

Lolol.

Anyway necrons pretty much hate the warp. They don't use psychers, or even use it for long distance travel.

But I would guess they have some pretty good tech for nullifying it (like pariahs), probably a pimped up version for the emperor.

Magnus the red was a pretty beast psychic , and he seemed to know more about the warp.
Mabe if he had his whole (pre-heracy) legion with him the he would have a chance. (OR now he is a daemon primarch?)

Cultiststeve wrote:Lolol.

Anyway necrons pretty much hate the warp. They don't use psychers, or even use it for long distance travel.

But I would guess they have some pretty good tech for nullifying it (like pariahs), probably a pimped up version for the emperor.

Magnus the red was a pretty beast psychic , and he seemed to know more about the warp.
Mabe if he had his whole (pre-heracy) legion with him the he would have a chance. (OR now he is a daemon primarch?)

Yes Magnus is.

Soladrin wrote:Just wondering if there has been any other being that came close to The Emperors psychic might. I was thinking Eldrad, but I doubt it...

So yeah, that's about it, shoot away!

Malcador, the Sigillite, I believe to be number 2, after the Emperor. Magnus the Red being number 3.

Well yeah, my point was more, outside of the human spectrum. Maybe I should've put that in the original post... Oh well.

ToBeWilly wrote:Malcador, the Sigillite, I believe to be number 2, after the Emperor. Magnus the Red being number 3.

Magnus the Red is much more powerful than Malcador. Magnus the Red was the Emperor's first choice to replace him on the Golden Throne, he turned to Malcador to sit on it out of desperation. Malcador was dead by the time the Emperor's body was brought back to the Throne.

@Soladrin: If you're talking non-humans, and discounting Daemons and gods, then the Hive Mind is the most powerful psychic being. Unless you consider that also a god, in which case it's between Eldrad and the Doom of Malanthai, IMO.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:depends who is writing the fluff of the next eldar dex, if it is Ward you can bet that the Emporer will be lower in the rankings

If Ward write Eldar then the fluff will state that the Emperor is only known as "the Emperor" because Eldrad mind wiped him and then carved eldrich runes on his heart.

I think the Chaos Gods are truly the only beings in the HH fluff that could match the emperor. In the current 41st millenium fluff I would say the Hivemind is pretty powerful psychically. Then again I have always thought the Tyranids are being called into the Galaxy by the Emperor to finally finish off chaos since he failed.

Any corpse will do.

Any of the Ctan at full strength are a match or more for the Emperor, Powerwise. He couldn't kill one when it was crippled and weakened, just put it in a coma.

The C'tan aren't Psykers, they just tell reality to sit down and shut up whenever they want to.

None of them are currently at full strength. The rumors seem to be more in line with the shattered remnants of the other Ctan being slaved to the Necrons, not the Big 4 (what IS it with GW and having 4 uber creatures.. 4 chaos gods too..)

The Hive Mind as a Gestalt entity would probably be at least a match psychically for Big E, if GW wouldn't keep kicking them in the fluffy bits..

Physically? Makari the Grot (pre death) would best him.. he's dead, Jim

I can't think of anyone else who is on a similar order of power, outside of racial deities like Gork, Mork (more powerful, likely) or the Chaos Gods. Possibly the Laughing God (though he is more into misdirection) or so on.

Ascalam wrote:Any of the Ctan at full strength are a match or more for the Emperor, Powerwise. He couldn't kill one when it was crippled and weakened, just put it in a coma.

The C'tan aren't Psykers, they just tell reality to sit down and shut up whenever they want to.

None of them are currently at full strength. The rumors seem to be more in line with the shattered remnants of the other Ctan being slaved to the Necrons, not the Big 4 (what IS it with GW and having 4 uber creatures.. 4 chaos gods too..)

The Hive Mind as a Gestalt entity would probably be at least a match psychically for Big E, if GW wouldn't keep kicking them in the fluffy bits..

Physically? Makari the Grot (pre death) would best him.. he's dead, Jim

I can't think of anyone else who is on a similar order of power, outside of racial deities like Gork, Mork (more powerful, likely) or the Chaos Gods. Possibly the Laughing God (though he is more into misdirection) or so on.

The "four" theme has roots in Chinese, Korean, and Japanese writing, in that "four" is just a half-letter away from being "death," and the pronunciation is similar. Some Western sources assign the number four with a sense of dread as well, such as the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

And yeah, I would say that a C'tan at full power in the Materium is stronger than the Emperor.

Fair enough

Thanks for the mythological go-to

I have heard from reliable, just slightly heretical, sources that a corpse on a stick would be an even match for the false Emperor.
The same sources also told me that i had to overthrow the false and corrupt regime of the corpsegod and to bath in the warm blood
of his deluded followers. I think my sources are 100% legit.

KingDeath wrote:I have heard from reliable, just slightly heretical, sources that a corpse on a stick would be an even match for the false Emperor.
The same sources also told me that i had to overthrow the false and corrupt regime of the corpsegod and to bath in the warm blood
of his deluded followers. I think my sources are 100% legit.

You might want to recheck your sources.

The Emperor is a corpse on a stick

Magnus was nearly a match for the Emperor, possibly having been designed to replace him on the Golden Throne.

The Chaos Gods dwarf the Emperor in psychic might, particularly since he's dead.

Chuck Norris

but seriously i think magnus can match the emperor now in his daemon form

Viersche wrote:
but seriously i think magnus can match the emperor now in his daemon form

Horus got erased when he was backed by all four Chaos Gods. Magnus has the support of one of them. I rest my case.

Magnus was designed to be a powerful psyker and has the support of the god of magic, undiluted by Khorne.

well if you think magnus wasn't a match, i'll go back to my original candidate - Chuck Norris

Durza wrote:Magnus was designed to be a powerful psyker and has the support of the god of magic, undiluted by Khorne.

Are you seriously arguing that Horus having the backing of all four ruinous powers made their individual contributions LESS powerful? Because that sure is how you're coming across.

Tzeentch loves sorcery. Khorne makes a habit of negating psychic powers.

Durza wrote:Tzeentch loves sorcery. Khorne makes a habit of negating psychic powers.

so they could basically cancel each other out?

Magnus would probably be a better psyker but the Emperor would be better in combat.

Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

HERESY

old zogwort... not that he's stronger... but he might be able to squig the big E beforre he knows what's going on

Mork and Gork easily surpass the emprah. They know they are so powerful that currently in the galaxy there isn't anything that would make them wake up for a fight.

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

So that's why The emperor's corpse alone is holding all of chaos back from entering the material world? Huh.. I could've sworn...

Soladrin wrote:

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

So that's why The emperor's corpse alone is holding all of chaos back from entering the material world? Huh.. I could've sworn...

The Imperials might believe that but it is unlikely. Chaos didn't swallow up the galaxy before the carriongod was inthroned ( or before he was even born ) and it doesn't swallow
up the galaxy now.

KingDeath wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

So that's why The emperor's corpse alone is holding all of chaos back from entering the material world? Huh.. I could've sworn...

The Imperials might believe that but it is unlikely. Chaos didn't swallow up the galaxy before the carriongod was inthroned ( or before he was even born ) and it doesn't swallow
up the galaxy now.

According to old GW material, The Emperor actually predates some Chaos gods. Since he's been around for a LONG time before we actually knew about him.

Edit: Khorne came into full being during middle ages. And he's the oldest, that actually makes the Emperor older then ALL the Chaos gods.

Soladrin wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

So that's why The emperor's corpse alone is holding all of chaos back from entering the material world? Huh.. I could've sworn...

The Imperials might believe that but it is unlikely. Chaos didn't swallow up the galaxy before the carriongod was inthroned ( or before he was even born ) and it doesn't swallow
up the galaxy now.

According to old GW material, The Emperor actually predates some Chaos gods. Since he's been around for a LONG time before we actually knew about him.

Edit: Khorne came into full being during middle ages. And he's the oldest, that actually makes the Emperor older then ALL the Chaos gods.

Makes sense we have to learn to hope before we can know despair, we must know peace before we know war, restraint before excess, and a routine before we know when something changes.

Soladrin wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

So that's why The emperor's corpse alone is holding all of chaos back from entering the material world? Huh.. I could've sworn...

The Imperials might believe that but it is unlikely. Chaos didn't swallow up the galaxy before the carriongod was inthroned ( or before he was even born ) and it doesn't swallow
up the galaxy now.

According to old GW material, The Emperor actually predates some Chaos gods. Since he's been around for a LONG time before we actually knew about him.

Edit: Khorne came into full being during middle ages. And he's the oldest, that actually makes the Emperor older then ALL the Chaos gods.

I never noticed this before you pointed it out.

KingDeath wrote:The Imperials might believe that but it is unlikely. Chaos didn't swallow up the galaxy before the carriongod was inthroned ( or before he was even born ) and it doesn't swallow
up the galaxy now.

The Emperor predates the Chaos Gods (Though he does not predate Chaos, which was created millions of years before the Emperor was born).

Though personally, I don't believe the Emperor is holding Chaos from spilling into the material realm. I actually can't recall which source even implies that, to be honest.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Though personally, I don't believe the Emperor is holding Chaos from spilling into the material realm. I actually can't recall which source even implies that, to be honest.

5'th edition rulebook, can't remember what paragraph... It is said that only because of him Chaos Gods didn't destroy Humanity and that he is holding back tides of Daemons and guide his people even in his deathless state.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
up the galaxy now.

The Emperor predates the Chaos Gods (Though he does not predate Chaos, which was created millions of years before the Emperor was born).

The Emporer holds the warp at bay. Nothing can contest with that.

Gork and Mork.

Viersche wrote:

Durza wrote:Tzeentch loves sorcery. Khorne makes a habit of negating psychic powers.

so they could basically cancel each other out?

They don't really cancel each other out, It's more like Gork and Mork. Where Tzeentch feths you with his mind and Khorne just kills you.

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, can't remember what paragraph... It is said that only because of him Chaos Gods didn't destroy Humanity and that he is holding back tides of Daemons and guide his people even in his deathless state.

And I don't remember this one, in witch paragraph is this "Chaos" mentioned?
I thought that only Warp existed before them...and that the Warp was somewhat empty ( at least with no sentient beings ).

I've looked through the 5e rulebook. Didn't find the evidence you speak of.


Chaos first came into existence during the War in Heaven, or rather, after it, the Old Ones having inadvertantly created it in their attempt to fight the Necrons.

The only way to settle this is to convert giant pieces, and make special rules for each.

I want to see a giant Void Dragon model, that looks legitimately Dragon-y.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, can't remember what paragraph... It is said that only because of him Chaos Gods didn't destroy Humanity and that he is holding back tides of Daemons and guide his people even in his deathless state.

And I don't remember this one, in witch paragraph is this "Chaos" mentioned?
I thought that only Warp existed before them...and that the Warp was somewhat empty ( at least with no sentient beings ).

I've looked through the 5e rulebook. Didn't find the evidence you speak of.


Chaos first came into existence during the War in Heaven, or rather, after it, the Old Ones having inadvertantly created it in their attempt to fight the Necrons.

Well this is truly some old school stuff...

I personally reckon that if he was at full power, no one could contest him. However at his present state, sure some of the gods could.

World Engine > Emperor

I think that magnus the red and some other daemon princes might come close

Void__Dragon wrote:
I've looked through the 5e rulebook. Didn't find the evidence you speak of.

5'th edition rulebook, page 101 : "His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.

If the Emperor fails then the daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."

You didn't even bother to read did you? It's hard to find something when you are not believer...and it goes against your claims...

Chaos first came into existence during the War in Heaven, or rather, after it, the Old Ones having inadvertantly created it in their attempt to fight the Necrons.

That's Warp, unless you can prove to me that Warp = Chaos I will not believe in it.

Not sure if I'm right, but would the C'Tan from Necrons be close?

Inconsistency wrote:Not sure if I'm right, but would the C'Tan from Necrons be close?

Not truly psychic as the Warp is pretty much their antithesis but as someone stated before, if any of the four were at full strength (okay, maybe not the deceiver) they'd probably make the emperor shat his pants. And it is mentioned/implied that the Outsider's mere presence can drive people insane to the point of self mutilation at the least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Chaos first came into existence during the War in Heaven, or rather, after it, the Old Ones having inadvertantly created it in their attempt to fight the Necrons.

That's Warp, unless you can prove to me that Warp = Chaos I will not believe in it.

I'm presuming you are saying the old ones created the Warp, think you're wrong there pal.

I'm pretty sure that the Warp had always been around it just that it used to be a pretty peaceful place until the War in Heaven where upon the Old Ones, due to them making races in tune with the warp to try to fend off the Necrons, fethed it up turning it into the chaotic mess, aggravating it to the point that the enslavers came pouring through, finishing off the old ones. So no, the Old Ones didn't make chaos, but they sure as hell set up the stage to make it come into existence.

Malal.

Now seriously, count me on the ranks of those who think The E. is no match for the Chaos Gods. I tend to think of him as a warp entity (a chaos god, if you wish) in the making. Almost there, yet not fully realized.

G00fySmiley wrote:old zogwort... not that he's stronger... but he might be able to squig the big E beforre he knows what's going on

I like this outcome. Instead of a corpsegod. We would have squig-god on the golden throne!

Nicholas wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

So that's why The emperor's corpse alone is holding all of chaos back from entering the material world? Huh.. I could've sworn...

The Imperials might believe that but it is unlikely. Chaos didn't swallow up the galaxy before the carriongod was inthroned ( or before he was even born ) and it doesn't swallow
up the galaxy now.

According to old GW material, The Emperor actually predates some Chaos gods. Since he's been around for a LONG time before we actually knew about him.

Edit: Khorne came into full being during middle ages. And he's the oldest, that actually makes the Emperor older then ALL the Chaos gods.

I never noticed this before you pointed it out.

This is ridiculous. The Eldar have said they waged wars before humanity even became sentient. Khorne was around a lot longer than the Emperor, and so was Nurgle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing the Emperor did by sitting on the throne was prevent daemons taking over Terra, not the entire galaxy.

Durza wrote:This is ridiculous. The Eldar have said they waged wars before humanity even became sentient. Khorne was around a lot longer than the Emperor, and so was Nurgle.

The Eldar didn't create Khorne, Nurgle or Tzeentch primarily on their own though. That's what made Slaanesh special.

The only thing the Emperor did by sitting on the throne was prevent daemons taking over Terra, not the entire galaxy.

The quote Brother Coa provided, if accurate, contradicts that claim.

Keh. I still don't like it. I'll be on the lookout for contradictions.

The Eldar didn't create the other three on their own, but it was also not done by humans, and the gods probably predate humanity. The only mention of Khorne and the Middle Ages I've found is a reference that in their travels, men were more likely to attack strangers than greet them as brothers and Khorne represented this, not that he was created by it.

Apparently Draigo is more than a match for the Emperor.

Only when wearing his Ward brand Plot Armour.

It's pretty clear the Emperor is no match for the Big 4, he sat through the birth of all of them without intervening (even when Slaanesh fethed gak up bad for mankind), and when he finally got off his demigod ass and decided to take the reigns, his plan of action for Chaos was "Chaos? What are you talking about?".

The Star Child, on the other hand...

Durza wrote:
The only thing the Emperor did by sitting on the throne was prevent daemons taking over Terra, not the entire galaxy.

5'th edition Rulebook say otherwise, that without him the entire GALAXY would be the Realm of Chaos.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:Malal.

Now seriously, count me on the ranks of those who think The E. is no match for the Chaos Gods. I tend to think of him as a warp entity (a chaos god, if you wish) in the making. Almost there, yet not fully realized.

When he dies though...

I did not think that the big E was older than the big 4 (personally i think he is as powerful and if not then he is defenatly nearly there) can anyone provide concrete (but not ward) fluff or evidence that will put a rest to this.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

I did not think that the big E was older than the big 4 (personally i think he is as powerful and if not then he is defenatly nearly there) can anyone provide concrete (but not ward) fluff or evidence that will put a rest to this.

Timeline:

8000 BC - Birth of the Emperor in central Anatolia.
8000 BC- 1400 AD - Birth of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle (Chaos Gods).
500.M2 - The three older Gods of Chaos, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle awake to full consciousness by the end of the Middle Ages.

So he is older then them and + he was sentient long before Chaos Gods became sentient.

Brother Coa wrote:
8000 BC- 1400 AD - Birth of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle (Chaos Gods).
500.M2 - The three older Gods of Chaos, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle awake to full consciousness by the end of the Middle Ages.

Where's the source for this?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ancient_history
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M2

You have sources on the right side.
You think that I imagine that?

Apologies. I stand corrected. Though how the most powerful psyker in human history managed to ignore the birth of three warp gods is a bit strange.

I take it more as Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch all came into being/self aware at that time. Not that they were created. The energy was already there, it just wasn't a god until the humans gave it a little nudge.

No, they became conscious in the 1500s. Strange though it is.

Matt Ward says this fella:

Son of Draigo!!!

Brother Coa wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

I did not think that the big E was older than the big 4 (personally i think he is as powerful and if not then he is defenatly nearly there) can anyone provide concrete (but not ward) fluff or evidence that will put a rest to this.

Timeline:

8000 BC - Birth of the Emperor in central Anatolia.
8000 BC- 1400 AD - Birth of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle (Chaos Gods).
500.M2 - The three older Gods of Chaos, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle awake to full consciousness by the end of the Middle Ages.

So he is older then them and + he was sentient long before Chaos Gods became sentient.

Thanks this makes much more sense.

I think a major point about the Emporers power is that the big 4 put so much resorses into stopping him, they must have felt at least threatend by him

JohnnoM wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, can't remember what paragraph... It is said that only because of him Chaos Gods didn't destroy Humanity and that he is holding back tides of Daemons and guide his people even in his deathless state.

And I don't remember this one, in witch paragraph is this "Chaos" mentioned?
I thought that only Warp existed before them...and that the Warp was somewhat empty ( at least with no sentient beings ).

I've looked through the 5e rulebook. Didn't find the evidence you speak of.


Chaos first came into existence during the War in Heaven, or rather, after it, the Old Ones having inadvertantly created it in their attempt to fight the Necrons.

Well this is truly some old school stuff...

I personally reckon that if he was at full power, no one could contest him. However at his present state, sure some of the gods could.

He is stronger psycically now than before, after nomming a thousand souls a day. Physically he couldn't hold off a grot with a that had it's lower half chopped off by an angry ork.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, can't remember what paragraph... It is said that only because of him Chaos Gods didn't destroy Humanity and that he is holding back tides of Daemons and guide his people even in his deathless state.

And I don't remember this one, in witch paragraph is this "Chaos" mentioned?
I thought that only Warp existed before them...and that the Warp was somewhat empty ( at least with no sentient beings ).

I've looked through the 5e rulebook. Didn't find the evidence you speak of.

Near the end of The Imperium section of the rulebook, I think. I actually read this part of the rulebook just the other night, so it's pretty fresh in my mind. Says something to the effect of 'if the Emperor fails in his effort to hold back the forces of Chaos, every single human will become a gateway for daemonic forces, and the entire galaxy will be plunged into darkness. There will be no time, no light. Only Chaos.' Or something like that.

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, page 101 : "His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.

If the Emperor fails then the daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."

You didn't even bother to read did you? It's hard to find something when you are not believer...and it goes against your claims...

I have read it. I just can't recall every single line I've read in the fluff.

Consider you have directly stated you don't believe fluff which contradicts your view of the setting as an Imperial fanboy, accusing others of that kind of gak is in bad taste.

That's Warp, unless you can prove to me that Warp = Chaos I will not believe in it.

Are you under the impression that the Old Ones created the Warp? No, they did not. But they perverted the Warp into the dangerous place it is now, essentially creating at least the foundation for Chaos.

The Warp isn't Chaos, Chaos resides in the warp. There's a difference. The warp is basically just an alternate dimension.

Gork and Mork to some extent, but they're not physical entities.


Also yes, the warp is fully separate from Chaos. Like fish and the ocean. The Warp (Empyrean) is the ocean. Chaos is simply a very, VERY, unbelievably large school of fish swimming in the same direction (Usually... mostly.... occasionally... sometimes... well, on a good day).

Durza wrote:Apologies. I stand corrected. Though how the most powerful psyker in human history managed to ignore the birth of three warp gods is a bit strange.

According to the Lexicanum the source is 1st Edition stuff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Realms_of_Chaos:_The_Lost_and_the_Damned#The_Lost_and_the_Damned

Realm of Chaos was a two-part series of books; the first published in 1988, the second in 1990. The books are part of Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader (First Edition). The works discuss the four deities of Chaos and the various aspects of Chaos and the Warp. The books were designed for both Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy. This information has since been superseded, but still forms the basis for later background in Third and Fourth Editions, inspiring the Horus Heresy novels and the Liber Chaotica set of books.

I think it would be pretty safe to ignore it as a fluff from a goofier and less well-thought era. After all, the combined lifeforms of a single planet which haven't even begun to reach population limits would be like a mote of dust (or, if you will, a blue spec) compared to the vast sector-spanning empires which were running about at that time and before. A sudden burst of Chaos Gods born due to negligible human activity can be eliminated by logic, if not simply ignored due to being colossally poor writing.

Glowcat wrote:I think it would be pretty safe to ignore it as a fluff from a goofier and less well-thought era. After all, the combined lifeforms of a single planet which haven't even begun to reach population limits would be like a mote of dust (or, if you will, a blue spec) compared to the vast sector-spanning empires which were running about at that time and before. A sudden burst of Chaos Gods born due to negligible human activity can be eliminated by logic, if not simply ignored due to being colossally poor writing.

People are always extremely ready to dismiss Realm of Chaos era fluff as "goofy and less well-thought", and this is a pet peeve of mine. Pre-RoC, RT fluff has some pretty massive discrepancies with current fluff, but this isn't due to goofiness or poor writing, simply backgroud in a new universe taking some time to settle. The Realm of Chaos books solidifed the 40k fluff into what it is today, and the vast majority of the books' background has never been retconned (indeed, a lot of it has been rewritten into the game after falling absent during 2E, e.g., the Slaan/Old Ones).

Prior to the rise of mankind, the only "sector-spanning empire" (aside from Orks, who the Chaos Gods have never held any particular interest in) that I'm aware of is the Eldar, who certainly hold their fair share of responsibility for the birth of all 4 Chaos Gods. Mankind is suggested as being somewhat special in being an emergent psychic race with no (yet) collective warp entity to protect them from Chaos, the Eldar, who were psychic since creation, always had their gods to keep them from the jaws of the emerging chaos threat, but humanity is an open buffet to Chaos.

Magarachnids, Interex, Kinebrach...

The Cabal was also composed of races that were major players in the galaxy at one stage or another.

Void__Dragon wrote:
I have read it. I just can't recall every single line I've read in the fluff.

Then look better next time

Consider you have directly stated you don't believe fluff which contradicts your view of the setting as an Imperial fanboy, accusing others of that kind of gak is in bad taste.

For other codexes yes, but this is not codex - this is main Rulebook and it's fluff contradicts even those of the codex. It is also stated that Human rase is starting to lose war for it's survival, I toughs you would be happy to hear that

The codices were usually written after the main book though, making their fluff more recent.

Durza wrote:The codices were usually written after the main book though, making their fluff more recent.

Yes but still:

Rulebook - universal fluff.
Codex - Faction propaganda.

Durza wrote:Magarachnids, Interex, Kinebrach...

The Cabal was also composed of races that were major players in the galaxy at one stage or another.

I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy books, but Lexicanum claims the Interex were human, and the Megarachnids are notable only for fighting and losing against the Interex, which suggests their peak was contemporary with the DAoT.


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Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:The codices were usually written after the main book though, making their fluff more recent.

Yes but still:

Rulebook - universal fluff.
Codex - Faction propaganda.

This really isn't true. If fluff is presented to us in an out-of-universe fashion (by the omniscient narrator), then it can be assumed to be true and unbiased, regardless of source. Fluff is only biased when presented in-universe (by a chaos champion, or ultramarine captain, or whatever).

The rulebook contains plenty of errors, or missing information, or just plain wrong information, don't think it's the sole source of canon.

So those the codexes...

sirrah wrote:

Glowcat wrote:I think it would be pretty safe to ignore it as a fluff from a goofier and less well-thought era. After all, the combined lifeforms of a single planet which haven't even begun to reach population limits would be like a mote of dust (or, if you will, a blue spec) compared to the vast sector-spanning empires which were running about at that time and before. A sudden burst of Chaos Gods born due to negligible human activity can be eliminated by logic, if not simply ignored due to being colossally poor writing.

People are always extremely ready to dismiss Realm of Chaos era fluff as "goofy and less well-thought", and this is a pet peeve of mine. Pre-RoC, RT fluff has some pretty massive discrepancies with current fluff, but this isn't due to goofiness or poor writing, simply backgroud in a new universe taking some time to settle. The Realm of Chaos books solidifed the 40k fluff into what it is today, and the vast majority of the books' background has never been retconned (indeed, a lot of it has been rewritten into the game after falling absent during 2E, e.g., the Slaan/Old Ones).

Prior to the rise of mankind, the only "sector-spanning empire" (aside from Orks, who the Chaos Gods have never held any particular interest in) that I'm aware of is the Eldar, who certainly hold their fair share of responsibility for the birth of all 4 Chaos Gods. Mankind is suggested as being somewhat special in being an emergent psychic race with no (yet) collective warp entity to protect them from Chaos, the Eldar, who were psychic since creation, always had their gods to keep them from the jaws of the emerging chaos threat, but humanity is an open buffet to Chaos.

You realize that a large part of that settling is removing some truly stupid ideas, right? It is a pruning process which will hopefully result in a more cohesive setting. The entire thing might not need to be condemned but it's odd for you to deny the existence of bad writing when the current contention was one such piece. Not only is the birth of 3/4 Chaos gods in a short period of humanity's history uninteresting compared to Slaanesh but it makes for a poor story which exceeds the limits of willing suspension of disbelief. Lazy GMs have come up with better explanations than that used for Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentchs' births.

And there were more multi-sector empires than the Eldar, not to mention system-bound species with more population than even modern day humanity. The Imperium still runs across them or their ruins in the 41st Millennium. These are the minor races you don't often hear about because the fluff never focuses on them much.

Brother Coa wrote:For other codexes yes, but this is not codex - this is main Rulebook and it's fluff contradicts even those of the codex. It is also stated that Human rase is starting to lose war for it's survival, I toughs you would be happy to hear that

You seem to be under the impression that rulebook fluff overrules codex fluff, and that all codices are somehow "written" by their faction as propaganda (Lol at the idea of Necron and Tyranid propaganda).

That's just not true. Hell, the rulebook fluff is blatantly from an Imperial point of view, so you could argue it is less concrete.

Nids and Necrons don't need propaganda, just a menu

Coa has already referred to Necron fluff as Necron propaganda. That's what warranted the comment.

Necron propaganda. Could be interesting. I'm sure the Deciever has some. Half of the Chaos gods don't go in for propaganda either. Guess which.

There are like two or three instances of a Necron talking to someone in the fluff I can recall, and one of the Deceiver.

Who is the propaganda for?

Slaanesh and Tzeentch of course. The other two tell you they're going to eat your soul.

Void__Dragon wrote:You seem to be under the impression that rulebook fluff overrules codex fluff,

It does because it has Space Marine fluff, Imperial Gaurd fluff, Ork fluff, Tyranid fluff, Necron fluff etc... It's fluff is above the codex fluff ( since every codex glorify that race, while Rulebook fluff don't ).

and that all codices are somehow "written" by their faction as propaganda (Lol at the idea of Necron and Tyranid propaganda).

They are. Like Necrons are numberless and have super-mega-killing tech and Tyranids are numberless and they have eaten like several galaxies already - that's propaganda to me.

That's just not true. Hell, the rulebook fluff is blatantly from an Imperial point of view, so you could argue it is less concrete.

It's not just Imperial - it has other faction in it. But if you don't believe it's fluff that's ok - just don't force others not to believe in it to.

Brother Coa wrote:It does because it has Space Marine fluff, Imperial Gaurd fluff, Ork fluff, Tyranid fluff, Necron fluff etc... It's fluff is above the codex fluff ( since every codex glorify that race, while Rulebook fluff don't ).

The rulebook's fluff, until it actually starts describing individual armies, is blatantly from an Imperial point of view. So no, it doesn't overrule it.

They are. Like Necrons are numberless and have super-mega-killing tech and Tyranids are numberless and they have eaten like several galaxies already - that's propaganda to me.

Funnily enough everything you just said is in the rulebook fluff. Necrons in every piece of fluff are legion, and their technology is second to none, this is fact. Same with Tyranids eating several galaxies.

It's not just Imperial - it has other faction in it. But if you don't believe it's fluff that's ok - just don't force others not to believe in it to.

I will believe the Emperor holds back Daemons from spilling into the Warp because it directly says so and as far as I know no other source contradicts that.

The rulebook has perhaps three one line Ork quotes.

Codices don't glorify the races, they give their history. The story bits glorify them, sure, but that's just storytelling. No one wants just a timeline for their fluff.

I've never heard the numberless Necrons idea before, but there are a lot of them, and they do have super-mega-killing tech. So does the Imperium. Tyranids are essentially numberless, and it's entirely possible they've eaten several galaxies.

It's impossible to force someone not to believe someone. The best you can do is show them facts (eg, the Horus Heresy history in the Chaos 'dex which at no point says that the Chaos side was any better than the Imperium, or anything like that) and hope they change their mind.

Void__Dragon wrote:
The rulebook's fluff, until it actually starts describing individual armies, is blatantly from an Imperial point of view. So no, it doesn't overrule it.

Funny because I could have sworn to see Eldar, Dark Eldar, Ork, Tyranid, Chaos... in rulebook. And fluff related from THEIR point of view.
Rulebook is above codex, because it is universal. It doesn't have just IMPERIAL fluff, it has pieces of fluff from everybody.
Unless you can prove otherwise - leave it.



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Durza wrote:
Codices don't glorify the races, they give their history. The story bits glorify them, sure, but that's just storytelling. No one wants just a timeline for their fluff.

All codexes glorify their races. Just ask anybody. In every codex you will find very little defeat of one faction while you can read about their defeats in others. And every codex praise it's race like it is the strongest ( just see fanboys that didn't even read other codex fluff ).




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Void__Dragon wrote:
Funnily enough everything you just said is in the rulebook fluff. Necrons in every piece of fluff are legion, and their technology is second to none, this is fact. Same with Tyranids eating several galaxies.

Funny because I read that even in their codexes. Only in rulebook I didn't read about "Great Hive Fleet" or "Great undying Legions of Necrons".

I will believe the Emperor holds back Daemons from spilling into the Warp because it directly says so and as far as I know no other source contradicts that.

Thank the Emperor that you say this. After all my trouble you finally admit that Emperor is more then just dead corpse on the chair.

I guess you missed the necron tagline then

"they are legion, their name is death'

The fluff is almost entirely from the IOM's point of view. Nearly evberything known of the Necrons is from Human or Eldar sources.

In said fluff it is made pretty clear that the IOM can't even begin to figure out Necron tech. They haven't a fething clue how it works. It is also immutable (until Ward mutes it anyway)fact that their tech was more advanced than the race that created the Eldar, Humanity, Orks etc etc.

It is made very very clear in BFG (from the POV of the IOM no less) that Necron ships are so far superior to IOM ones that it is damn near suicidal to engage them..

It is a bit odd for the enemy (the IOM) to be writing the Necron's propaganda for them ,wouldn't you say?

The same would apply to the Nids. They don't exactly post leaflets on their manifesto or appear on tv interviews. Everything 'propaganda' about the Nids is from IOM or Eldar sources.


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All codexes glorify their races. Just ask anybody. In every codex you will find very little defeat of one faction while you can read about their defeats in others. And every codex praise it's race like it is the strongest ( just see fanboys that didn't even read other codex fluff ). - Brother Coa


The Nids and Necrons are usually listed more for their defeats than their victories. They've even rewritten victories for these races into defeats with the IOM being the heroes. THAT's propaganda

When there are codexes out there that have only one or two token 'losses' in their list of victories you can be damn sure the codex is about Power Armour of one colour or another.


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'They are. Like Necrons are numberless and have super-mega-killing tech and Tyranids are numberless and they have eaten like several galaxies already - that's propaganda to me.' -Brother Coa



Rulebook pg 166-

'behind the hive fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed' - they nommed. Deal with it.

Pg 167 Rulebook

'In this way the tyranids constantly evolve and replenish their innumerable hordes. Unrelenting and all but unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of every other race that inhabits the galaxy.'

They are innumerable- numberless - there's lots of them!


If you refuse to accept rulebook fluff you don't like and claim it as non-accurate i'll happily use the same standard on the IOM, as the Departmento Propagandum is apparently working overtime

Brother Coa wrote:Funny because I could have sworn to see Eldar, Dark Eldar, Ork, Tyranid, Chaos... in rulebook. And fluff related from THEIR point of view.
Rulebook is above codex, because it is universal. It doesn't have just IMPERIAL fluff, it has pieces of fluff from everybody.
Unless you can prove otherwise - leave it.

Why did you ignore the first part of that sentence? The first IIRC thirty or so pages of the rulebook fluff is from an Imperial point of view.

And no, you have to prove that rulebook fluff overrides codex fluff, you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you. Unless you have a statement that says rulebook>Codices, you're making gak up.

All codexes glorify their races. Just ask anybody. In every codex you will find very little defeat of one faction while you can read about their defeats in others. And every codex praise it's race like it is the strongest ( just see fanboys that didn't even read other codex fluff ).

Ever read the Eldar codex? Which has the Eldar losing more than winning? Or the Tyranid codex, which is the same (Although all of their losses usually are pyrrhic victories)? Or the Dark Eldar codex, which had 500 Space Marines feth up Commorragh? Not every codex is the Grey Knight codex (Which IIRC has all of like one loss, maybe). Granted, the Necron codex doesn't have any Necron losses, but the Necron codex also only detailed a very few amount of battles, most of the fluff isn't about battles. But that doesn't mean gak, Necrons don't put out propaganda, neither do Tyranids.

Funny because I read that even in their codexes. Only in rulebook I didn't read about "Great Hive Fleet" or "Great undying Legions of Necrons".

I should probably elaborate on one bit: Necrons are not technically limitless. They are effectively limitless though because they don't die. But everywhere in the fluff when Necron tech is mentioned, it is the best technology in the setting, this is a fact, they are the unparalleled masters of time and space. And uh, the Tyranids certainly are said to have consumed several galaxies in the rulebook.

Thank the Emperor that you say this. After all my trouble you finally admit that Emperor is more then just dead corpse on the chair.

You can't actually find a post of mine that says the Emperor is "just" a corpse on a chair.

Nahhhh, but the emperor is a corpse hogging the john and I really need to go!

The emperor needed to win the fight with Horus for the galaxy to be thrust into eternal war. It is the struggle that makes Chaos great. If the whole galaxy was overthrown by Chaos, they would cease to be.
Just because the Emperor knows about some other god's births doesn't mean he can do anything about them. He had no means to travel to the great ocean to rid it of the gods. He was like a powerful wizard on Master of Magic. Gathering forces, watching his rivals grow in power in the underverse. The planar seal was still in place, so he could do nothing to them.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Why did you ignore the first part of that sentence? The first IIRC thirty or so pages of the rulebook fluff is from an Imperial point of view.

Because Imperium and Humanity are the center of 40k and main story goes from their point of view. But they also included others later so it's ok ( we also have like 50 pages of non-Imperial fluff ).

And no, you have to prove that rulebook fluff overrides codex fluff, you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you. Unless you have a statement that says rulebook>Codices, you're making gak up.

Ok, prove to me then that Dawn of War fluff is not valid and not important then codex fluff? Black Library fluff to? You are now imagining things and doing everything you can to get rulebook fluff retconed because it disagree with some of your viewpoints. If you can't find any official statement that Dawn of War fluff is not valid then I will use it all the time. And you find me a statement that codex fluff is above that of a rulebook. But I read a lot of statments about rulebook fluff being overpowered and that every codex glorify it's race. So we can't take it for serious then when comparing to other factions.

Ever read the Eldar codex? Which has the Eldar losing more than winning? Or the Tyranid codex, which is the same (Although all of their losses usually are pyrrhic victories)? Eldar lsoe the battle intentionally because they already know that they will win in the longer run, because they can see the future. Or the Dark Eldar codex, which had 500 Space Marines feth up Commorragh? That was hit and run mission, Dark Eldar could do the same with Holly Terra Not every codex is the Grey Knight codex (Which IIRC has all of like one loss, maybe) Grey Knights lost battle? Where? . Granted, the Necron codex doesn't have any Necron losses, but the Necron codex also only detailed a very few amount of battles, most of the fluff isn't about battles. But that doesn't mean gak, Necrons don't put out propaganda, neither do Tyranids.

"We are numberless" and "There is a great Hive Fleet coming" is not propaganda at all...

I should probably elaborate on one bit: Necrons are not technically limitless. They are effectively limitless though because they don't die. But everywhere in the fluff when Necron tech is mentioned, it is the best technology in the setting, this is a fact, they are the unparalleled masters of time and space. And uh, the Tyranids certainly are said to have consumed several galaxies in the rulebook.

Tech is ok, number ein't. Nothing is limitless, even universe have it's borders. AS for Nids we only know that they eat their own galaxy and that's it. We have no proff that they eat several more ( who ever leave Milky Way to confirm this? )

You can't actually find a post of mine that says the Emperor is "just" a corpse on a chair.

But I can find a LOT where you claimed that he has no power at all ( remember just SoB act's of faith thread ). And you think of him as a tyrant - not a savior. And that is personal attachment to your comments to.

We have been WAY from OT. LEt us return to it shall we Necron....?

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
Why did you ignore the first part of that sentence? The first IIRC thirty or so pages of the rulebook fluff is from an Imperial point of view.

Because the Imperium and Humanity are the center of 40k and the main story goes from their point of view. But they also included others later so it's ok ( we also have like 50 pages of non-Imperial fluff ).

So basically you're saying it's ok the Imperium got thirty pages of propaganda because every other race got five pages each (with comments from Imperial officers) later on?

And no, you have to prove that rulebook fluff overrides codex fluff, you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you. Unless you have a statement that says rulebook>Codices, you're making gak up.

Ok, prove to me then that Dawn of War fluff is not valid and not important then codex fluff? Black Library fluff to? You are now imagining things and doing everything you can to get rulebook fluff retconed because it disagrees with some of your viewpoints. If you can't find any official statement that Dawn of War fluff is not valid then I will use it all the time. And you find me a statement that codex fluff is above that of a rulebook. But I read a lot of statments about rulebook fluff being overpowered and that every codex glorifies its race. So we can't take it seroiusly then when comparing it to other factions.

As I said before, the only parts of a codex which act like this are the narrative sections written specifically to make a certain hero or special unit in the codex look cool. The majority of codex fluff is non-biased. He hasn't said that rulebook fluff should be retconned, just that it isn't the only source of fluff in the game.

Ever read the Eldar codex? Which has the Eldar losing more than winning? Or the Tyranid codex, which is the same (Although all of their losses usually are pyrrhic victories)? Eldar lsoe the battle intentionally because they already know that they will win in the longer run, because they can see the future. Or the Dark Eldar codex, which had 500 Space Marines feth up Commorragh? That was hit and run mission, Dark Eldar could do the same with Holly Terra Not every codex is the Grey Knight codex (Which IIRC has all of like one loss, maybe) Grey Knights lost battle? Where? . Granted, the Necron codex doesn't have any Necron losses, but the Necron codex also only detailed a very few amount of battles, most of the fluff isn't about battles. But that doesn't mean gak, Necrons don't put out propaganda, neither do Tyranids.

"We are numberless" and "There is a great Hive Fleet coming" is not propaganda at all...

No, it's not. The Necrons are essentially numberless. The Hive fleet is fething massive. 'Great' is a pretty accurate adjective.

I should probably elaborate on one bit: Necrons are not technically limitless. They are effectively limitless though because they don't die. But everywhere in the fluff when Necron tech is mentioned, it is the best technology in the setting, this is a fact, they are the unparalleled masters of time and space. And uh, the Tyranids certainly are said to have consumed several galaxies in the rulebook.

Tech is ok, number aren't. Nothing is limitless, even universe have it's borders. AS for Nids we only know that they eat their own galaxy and that's it. We have no proff that they eat several more ( who ever leaves the Milky Way to confirm this?)

The rulebook says the Tyranids have devoured galaxies, you can't dismiss it as codex propaganda.

Durza wrote:
So basically you're saying it's ok the Imperium got thirty pages of propaganda because every other race got five pages each (with comments from Imperial officers) later on?

There was a thread about that. And most people agree that it would be stupid to have any other faction as main protagonist because they are not Humans. And rulebook fluff isn't propaganda, it's overall rewiev of that faction. Codex are faction propaganda.

As I said before, the only parts of a codex which act like this are the narrative sections written specifically to make a certain hero or special unit in the codex look cool. The majority of codex fluff is non-biased. He hasn't said that rulebook fluff should be retconned, just that it isn't the only source of fluff in the game.

True, none of us said that codex or rulebook fluff is retconed. I just want to prove to him that rulebook fluff is as important as those of the codex. And it is not "cool", the main story for 40k always start: "In the Grim Darkness of the far future there is only war. For 10.000 years the Imperium of Mankind...".

The rulebook says the Tyranids have devoured galaxies, you can't dismiss it as codex propaganda.

Only a dozen. That is not propaganda, some large Hive Fleet the size of the galaxy is.


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Durza wrote:
No, it's not. The Necrons are essentially numberless. The Hive fleet is fething massive. 'Great' is a pretty accurate adjective.

Nothing is numberless, even this universe ( it has borders you know ). And only prof of this "main" Hive Fleet is theory of a several Imperial schoolars. Just a theory, but it served well as Nid propaganda

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:
So basically you're saying it's ok the Imperium got thirty pages of propaganda because every other race got five pages each (with comments from Imperial officers) later on?

There was a thread about that. And most people agree that it would be stupid to have any other faction as main protagonist because they are not Humans. And rulebook fluff isn't propaganda, it's overall rewiev of that faction. Codex are faction propaganda.

There's propaganda fluff in the rulebook, just like there's propaganda fluff in the codices. There's also non-biased fluff in both.

As I said before, the only parts of a codex which act like this are the narrative sections written specifically to make a certain hero or special unit in the codex look cool. The majority of codex fluff is non-biased. He hasn't said that rulebook fluff should be retconned, just that it isn't the only source of fluff in the game.

True, none of us said that codex or rulebook fluff is retconed. I just want to prove to him that rulebook fluff is as important as those of the codex. And it is not "cool", the main story for 40k always start: "In the Grim Darkness of the far future there is only war. For 10.000 years the Imperium of Mankind...".

I can only hope you're deliberately mis reading me here. I wasn't talking about the introduction. I was talking about the sections in the rulebook and codices that say things like 'And so the great hero of the Imperium cast down the champion of Chaos' rather than 'Battle on X planet in year Y. Imperium victorious. Squad 3 sentenced to death posthumously for failure to report.'

The rulebook says the Tyranids have devoured galaxies, you can't dismiss it as codex propaganda.

Only a dozen. That is not propaganda, some large Hive Fleet the size of the galaxy is.

Only a dozen?

Durza wrote:
No, it's not. The Necrons are essentially numberless. The Hive fleet is fething massive. 'Great' is a pretty accurate adjective.

Nothing is numberless, even this universe ( it has borders you know ). And only prof of this "main" Hive Fleet is theory of a several Imperial schoolars. Just a theory, but it served well as Nid propaganda

Durza wrote:
There's propaganda fluff in the rulebook, just like there's propaganda fluff in the codices. There's also non-biased fluff in both.

Propaganda is stuff like Draigo, rulebook doesn't have that for just 1 race, but for all others ( one victory for every faction ). Because all have 1 fluff background victory it is not essentially just Imperial propaganda but somewhat of universal propaganda - the induction into 40k and it's factions. And propaganda is limited, only 1 for every faction. Everything else is race background.

I can only hope you're deliberately mis reading me here. I wasn't talking about the introduction. I was talking about the sections in the rulebook and codices that say things like 'And so the great hero of the Imperium cast down the champion of Chaos' rather than 'Battle on X planet in year Y. Imperium victorious. Squad 3 sentenced to death posthumously for failure to report.'

The timeline is universal, and there are also defeats if I am not mistaken...( my point is there are not just Imperial victories there... ).

Only a dozen?

Those galaxies didn't have Angels of Death to defend them

It completely makes sense that the Majority of the rule book is from the imperial view point, most of the armies are after all imperial. in addition Humans (i.e. the imperium) enhabit the majority of the Galaxsy and are by far the biggest faction.

the whole thing of Necrons being numberless is just a figure of speach IMHO, if you see a horde as far as the eye can see you would say that it is numberless, but of course there is a back to the line and there is a finite number of necrons

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:
There's propaganda fluff in the rulebook, just like there's propaganda fluff in the codices. There's also non-biased fluff in both.

Propaganda is stuff like Draigo, rulebook doesn't have that for just 1 race, but for all others ( one victory for every faction ). Because all have 1 fluff background victory it is not essentially just Imperial propaganda but somewhat of universal propaganda - the induction into 40k and it's factions. And propaganda is limited, only 1 for every faction. Everything else is race background.

That's what I was saying. The introduction and race history isn't propaganda, but insanely powerful people stories are.

I can only hope you're deliberately mis reading me here. I wasn't talking about the introduction. I was talking about the sections in the rulebook and codices that say things like 'And so the great hero of the Imperium cast down the champion of Chaos' rather than 'Battle on X planet in year Y. Imperium victorious. Squad 3 sentenced to death posthumously for failure to report.'

The timeline is universal, and there are also defeats if I am not mistaken...( my point is there are not just Imperial victories there... ).

My point was that the second example is not propaganda, the first is. You can read it as 'The great hero of the Tyranids cast down the Necron champion' if you want.

Only a dozen?

Those galaxies didn't have Angels of Death to defend them

True I suppose.

And rulebook doesn't have those people, that is the difference between fluff from codex and fluff from rulebook - rulebook is minor fluff that introduces other factions, not book full of fluff that represent that faction as unstoppable force...

That was my point all along - that because rulebook is universal, not concentrated on one faction. Have facts instead of 1 character army stories its fluff is valid if not more valid then those of codexes.


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Durza wrote:

Only a dozen?

Those galaxies didn't have Angels of Death to defend them

True I suppose.

I am glad we agreed in the end

The problem is you're reading in-depth fluff as propaganda though. Admittedly, it would annoy players if their codices listed every loss their army had.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:It completely makes sense that the Majority of the rule book is from the imperial view point, most of the armies are after all imperial. in addition Humans (i.e. the imperium) enhabit the majority of the Galaxsy and are by far the biggest faction.

the whole thing of Necrons being numberless is just a figure of speach IMHO, if you see a horde as far as the eye can see you would say that it is numberless, but of course there is a back to the line and there is a finite number of necrons

Actually they're not. Orks are.

The Imperium stretches across the galaxy, yes, but it doesn't rule all the space it stretches over, or even most of it.

Most armies are imperial because GW refuses to give xenos equal time.


And when more necrons keep porting in at the end of the line, and stand up at the front as you kill them? Necrons aren't so much a line as a mobius strip.

Nids are numberless, as the Tervigons in the backfield are birthing as you kill and no-one has yet seen the other end of the Tyranid race (it being extragalactic). They are effectively innumerable because whilst logically there must be a finite number of them the number is impossible to track.

Brother Coa wrote:Because Imperium and Humanity are the center of 40k and main story goes from their point of view. But they also included others later so it's ok ( we also have like 50 pages of non-Imperial fluff ).

Uh, that doesn't really answer my point, which is that the fluff you are using is decidedly from an Imperial point of view. Now I don't have a problem with it, I think the fluff should be written from an Imperial point of view, for instance I find the notion of a book written from a Necron point of view kind of icky. But the fact stands, the fluff you are citing does have an Imperial point of view, and as such is just as vulnerable to the bias you claim of the codices.

Ok, prove to me then that Dawn of War fluff is not valid and not important then codex fluff? Black Library fluff to? You are now imagining things and doing everything you can to get rulebook fluff retconed because it disagree with some of your viewpoints. If you can't find any official statement that Dawn of War fluff is not valid then I will use it all the time. And you find me a statement that codex fluff is above that of a rulebook. But I read a lot of statments about rulebook fluff being overpowered and that every codex glorify it's race. So we can't take it for serious then when comparing to other factions.

Why are you asking me to prove a claim I haven't made? Are you feeling ill? I didn't say the fething rulebook should be retconned, nor did I mention Dawn of War. No, you find me a statement that rulebook fluff is above the codex fluff, because you made the claim, if you can't prove your claim, stop claiming it.

Ever read the Eldar codex? Which has the Eldar losing more than winning? Or the Tyranid codex, which is the same (Although all of their losses usually are pyrrhic victories)? Eldar lsoe the battle intentionally because they already know that they will win in the longer run, because they can see the future. Or the Dark Eldar codex, which had 500 Space Marines feth up Commorragh? That was hit and run mission, Dark Eldar could do the same with Holly Terra Not every codex is the Grey Knight codex (Which IIRC has all of like one loss, maybe) Grey Knights lost battle? Where? . Granted, the Necron codex doesn't have any Necron losses, but the Necron codex also only detailed a very few amount of battles, most of the fluff isn't about battles. But that doesn't mean gak, Necrons don't put out propaganda, neither do Tyranids.

"We are numberless" and "There is a great Hive Fleet coming" is not propaganda at all...

Eldar lose the battle intentionally? Lol. No they don't. Losing Eldar lives is typically not seen as a good thing. Their vision of the future isn't perfect. Stop making gak up. The Space Marines didn't "hit and run," they landed, made a perimeter, and spanked Dark Eldar ass. And you are out of your mind if you think the Dark Eldar could manage a successful raid of Holy Terra. The Grey Knights lost to Huron Blackheart once, it's in Grand MAster Mordrak or whatever his name is' backstory.

The Necrons don't die. Effectively, they are without number, they can't die. Oh, and uh, considering that a Great Hive Fleet IS coming... Lol.

Tech is ok, number ein't. Nothing is limitless, even universe have it's borders. AS for Nids we only know that they eat their own galaxy and that's it. We have no proff that they eat several more ( who ever leave Milky Way to confirm this? )

Try to read my post next time. Necrons are technically not limitless. But effectively, they are. They are undying, you don't kill Necrons, you delay them. No, the rulebook says they feasted on a dozen galaxies. They ate more.

But I can find a LOT where you claimed that he has no power at all ( remember just SoB act's of faith thread ). And you think of him as a tyrant - not a savior. And that is personal attachment to your comments to.

We have been WAY from OT. LEt us return to it shall we Necron....?

You can't find a single post where I said he has no power at all. You're an idiot if you think me questioning him being responsible for but one act out of many means I'm saying he has no power at all. And he was a tyrant, he was not the heroic savior of goodness you think he was.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Uh, that doesn't really answer my point, which is that the fluff you are using is decidedly from an Imperial point of view. Now I don't have a problem with it, I think the fluff should be written from an Imperial point of view, for instance I find the notion of a book written from a Necron point of view kind of icky. But the fact stands, the fluff you are citing does have an Imperial point of view, and as such is just as vulnerable to the bias you claim of the codices.

It's easy to not believe something that goes against your arguments and you are using every trick in the book to get it retconed.... (don't lie ).

Why are you asking me to prove a claim I haven't made? Are you feeling ill? I didn't say the fething rulebook should be retconned, nor did I mention Dawn of War. No, you find me a statement that rulebook fluff is above the codex fluff, because you made the claim, if you can't prove your claim, stop claiming it.

I will make it simple: I can't prove it because there is no source for this. There is also no source for your claim so I mught be right after all. Sometimes you must have faith ( but you are Necron so... that's questionable ).

Eldar lose the battle intentionally? Lol. No they don't. Losing Eldar lives is typically not seen as a good thing. Their vision of the future isn't perfect. Stop making gak up. The Space Marines didn't "hit and run," they landed, made a perimeter, and spanked Dark Eldar ass. And you are out of your mind if you think the Dark Eldar could manage a successful raid of Holy Terra. The Grey Knights lost to Huron Blackheart once, it's in Grand MAster Mordrak or whatever his name is' backstory.

The Necrons don't die. Effectively, they are without number, they can't die. Oh, and uh, considering that a Great Hive Fleet IS coming... Lol.

Ok I am done here.... ( nothing in this universe is numberless, ask Hawking ). And Eldar do lose when that is going to their profit, Space Marines did raid Commoragh - Dark Eldar should then do the same to Terra since there is no source to contradict that small strike force can infiltrate a planet. And Grey Knights didn't lost - that sob escaped.

Try to read my post next time. Necrons are technically not limitless. But effectively, they are. They are undying, you don't kill Necrons, you delay them. No, the rulebook says they feasted on a dozen galaxies. They ate more.

Proff of this claim?

You can't find a single post where I said he has no power at all. You're an idiot if you think me questioning him being responsible for but one act out of many means I'm saying he has no power at all. And he was a tyrant, he was not the heroic savior of goodness you think he was.

You are trolling me from the beginning don't you
I am done here, from this point on I will not explain anything to you. I will just post and you try to get it.
You don't deserve any explanation from me at all, about anything.

I don't know about being unable to kill necron I'm sure the wraith cannons would kill them, highly doubt they just reassemble in the warp. Also Eldar losing on purpose what? they only lose when a seer screws up and has a false vision.

Brother Coa wrote:It's easy to not believe something that goes against your arguments and you are using every trick in the book to get it retconed.... (don't lie ).

To get what retconned? What are you talking about? Are you daft, or trolling me? You made the claim that codices have a bias for their factions and as such are unreliable, I pointed that the rulebook is easily capable of the same bias.

I will make it simple: I can't prove it because there is no source for this. There is also no source for your claim so I mught be right after all. Sometimes you must have faith ( but you are Necron so... that's questionable ).

If there is no source for it don't make the claim. Surely you can comprehend something as basic as that?

Ok I am done here.... ( nothing in this universe is numberless, ask Hawking ). And Eldar do lose when that is going to their profit, Space Marines did raid Commoragh - Dark Eldar should then do the same to Terra since there is no source to contradict that small strike force can infiltrate a planet. And Grey Knights didn't lost - that sob escaped.

Nice, dodging the context. Good job, real proper debating right thar. I'm not saying they are literally infinite in number, only that they are so impossible to kill (A Wraithcannon probably would kill one for good though) that their numbers can't be diminished.

You're very dense, you know that? The Space Marines fought the Dark Eldar for a prolonged period of time, and only left when they could. Terra is almost undoubtedly the most well-fortified planet in the galaxy, the Dark Eldar would be annihilated within moments.

Mordrak was the only Grey Knight to survive. That's not a "win." The Red Corsairs destroyed Mortain.

Proff of this claim?

Was a typo, meant to say they ate more than one.

You are trolling me from the beginning don't you
I am done here, from this point on I will not explain anything to you. I will just post and you try to get it.
You don't deserve any explanation from me at all, about anything.

Try to concede arguments with more dignity in the future.

No living being would come close to the Emperor, in terms of psychic might.

Ronin-Sage wrote:No living being would come close to the Emperor, in terms of psychic might.

True, aldo some people would suggest that Eldarad was more powerful. Because nowhere is stated that the Emperor is the "most powerful psyker ever" but "most powerful Human psyker ever". And Eldar fans are suing that to low the Emperor every time...

Eldrad was obviously not as powerful as the Emperor.

If he were, he would have killed Fulgrim himself.

Void__Dragon wrote:Eldrad was obviously not as powerful as the Emperor.

If he were, he would have killed Fulgrim himself.

Unless he wanted Fulgrim to survive so there would be a more heretics to divide the imperium which does have this nasty anti xenos policy.

FlammingGaunt wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Eldrad was obviously not as powerful as the Emperor.

If he were, he would have killed Fulgrim himself.

Unless he wanted Fulgrim to survive so there would be a more heretics to divide the imperium which does have this nasty anti xenos policy.

but i think the eldar would rather be hated than have more servants to the chaos gods, they can hide from the imperiam in the webway

FlammingGaunt wrote:Unless he wanted Fulgrim to survive so there would be a more heretics to divide the imperium which does have this nasty anti xenos policy.

I'm pretty sure they would prefer the Imperium stay strong, rather than Chaos grow in power. Which is what happened.

The emperor is Sigmar, you know it, I know it, and GW knows it, they are just hiding from the truth.
Since Sigmar is = one of the chaos gods if you include all of his human follower strength, so is the Emperor.
The hivemind is also = to the emperor, because the Emperor is the willpower of the human race incarnate, as the Hivemind is the Willpower of the Tyranid race incarnate.
Gork and Mork together fit the same bill, as does the Eldar god of the dead (once they are all dead of course)
Tau are atheists
The C'tan arent pyskers
...and thats about it.
The Emperor can grow and change, putting him above the Chaos Gods, with the same going for all of the other racial deities
Magnus the Red would get F***ed up by any of the others mentioned.

The Chaos gods constantly grow and change, especially Tzeentch. Sigmar was originally a primarch, but that's been retconned. The Emperor isn't the willpower of humanity, he's a powerful psyker.

The Emperor was saved by Horus from some Orkz.

So a common Ork could kill the Big E.


Although, the final battle depicts both Horus and the Big E's powers at uber levels, perhaps they were only level 6 on a 10 scale, but it seemed epic because they were the only two fighting. In otherwords, an ork warboss on the ship might of been more powerful then both.

Hard to judge what's most beefy in 40K. I'd say top contenders are the C'Tan, Swarmlord, and Greater Daemons (require armies to bring down in some cases)

Edit: Also, th Big E's suicide doomsday blast might of made him the most powerful entity alive for a split second or perhaps it was merely a blip... I'd like to think it raised his power levels to insane amounts before killing him.. but again hard to judge.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Emperor was saved by Horus from some Orkz.

So a common Ork could kill the Big E.


Although, the final battle depicts both Horus and the Big E's powers at uber levels, perhaps they were only level 6 on a 10 scale, but it seemed epic because they were the only two fighting. In otherwords, an ork warboss on the ship might of been more powerful then both.

Hard to judge what's most beefy in 40K. I'd say top contenders are the C'Tan, Swarmlord, and Greater Daemons (require armies to bring down in some cases)

Edit: Also, th Big E's suicide doomsday blast might of made him the most powerful entity alive for a split second or perhaps it was merely a blip... I'd like to think it raised his power levels to insane amounts before killing him.. but again hard to judge.

... Are you implying the Swarmlord is not only on the level of the C'tan and Greater Daemons, but also stronger than Horus and the Emperor?

A C'tan at full power would destroy a million Swarmlords, at once. When the Swarmlord is angry, Marneus Calgar becomes dismembered. When a C'tan gets angry, a solar system is swallowed by a black hole. Even in the Nightbringer's weakened state, it's still completely capable of devouring the energy of a star.

Greater Daemons also vary. You might be able to argue that the Swarmlord is above the average Bloodthirster (Who can hamsting a Carnifex with a single blow), maybe, but An'ggrath? Doubtful. On another note, Sanguinius broke Ka'Bhanda's back, Ka'Bhanda being the strongest Bloodthirster. Horus when empowered by Chaos crushed him. The Emperor defeated Horus, though they were closer in power than common opinion says.

A Warlord "struggled" to strangle the Emperor, that does not imply it was succeeding.

Magnus the Red could destroy Titans, personally, under his own power, utilising his massive psychic strength. The Emperor was even stronger than Magnus in that regard.

The contenders for most powerful beings in 40k are IMO between the Emperor, the Chaos Gods, the C'tan, and Gork and Mork. Cegorach perhaps as well. Khaine when he was complete and at full strength was pretty powerful too.

Though it depends on context. The C'tan are virtually supreme when at full power in the Materium, but have no power over the Warp. The reverse is largely true for the Chaos Gods, though the Chaos Gods seem to be able to affect a portion of the Materium where the veil has been weakened or destroyed, and similarly the C'tan have a plan to sever the Materium for the Warp entirely using their godlike powers. The Emperor in turn was powerful in the Materium, but even stronger in the Warp.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Emperor was saved by Horus from some Orkz.

So a common Ork could kill the Big E.

"Common Ork" as in the greatest Warboss humanity has ever seen, making Ghaz look like a Grot in comparison? Killed during the turning point of the Crusade?


Seriously, imagine the Waaagh! energy generated by the Orks in that Waaagh!. I don't find it too implausible that such an immense power would "block" the Emperor's own powers, even if only partially.

Void__Dragon wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Emperor was saved by Horus from some Orkz.

So a common Ork could kill the Big E.


Although, the final battle depicts both Horus and the Big E's powers at uber levels, perhaps they were only level 6 on a 10 scale, but it seemed epic because they were the only two fighting. In otherwords, an ork warboss on the ship might of been more powerful then both.

Hard to judge what's most beefy in 40K. I'd say top contenders are the C'Tan, Swarmlord, and Greater Daemons (require armies to bring down in some cases)

Edit: Also, th Big E's suicide doomsday blast might of made him the most powerful entity alive for a split second or perhaps it was merely a blip... I'd like to think it raised his power levels to insane amounts before killing him.. but again hard to judge.

... Are you implying the Swarmlord is not only on the level of the C'tan and Greater Daemons, but also stronger than Horus and the Emperor?

A C'tan at full power would destroy a million Swarmlords, at once. When the Swarmlord is angry, Marneus Calgar becomes dismembered. When a C'tan gets angry, a solar system is swallowed by a black hole. Even in the Nightbringer's weakened state, it's still completely capable of devouring the energy of a star.

Greater Daemons also vary. You might be able to argue that the Swarmlord is above the average Bloodthirster (Who can hamsting a Carnifex with a single blow), maybe, but An'ggrath? Doubtful. On another note, Sanguinius broke Ka'Bhanda's back, Ka'Bhanda being the strongest Bloodthirster. Horus when empowered by Chaos crushed him. The Emperor defeated Horus, though they were closer in power than common opinion says.

A Warlord "struggled" to strangle the Emperor, that does not imply it was succeeding.

Magnus the Red could destroy Titans, personally, under his own power, utilising his massive psychic strength. The Emperor was even stronger than Magnus in that regard.

The contenders for most powerful beings in 40k are IMO between the Emperor, the Chaos Gods, the C'tan, and Gork and Mork. Cegorach perhaps as well. Khaine when he was complete and at full strength was pretty powerful too.

Though it depends on context. The C'tan are virtually supreme when at full power in the Materium, but have no power over the Warp. The reverse is largely true for the Chaos Gods, though the Chaos Gods seem to be able to affect a portion of the Materium where the veil has been weakened or destroyed, and similarly the C'tan have a plan to sever the Materium for the Warp entirely using their godlike powers. The Emperor in turn was powerful in the Materium, but even stronger in the Warp.

This is where it gets hard to really tell...

Sang did break Ka'Bandahs back, but in the fight prior he had his Primarch legs broken and got knocked the f*** out. Ka"Bandah could have easily ripped his tiny little head off too while he was limp on the ground.

C'Tan are an iffy subject, we need more fluff on these guys. What we do know is that they have the power to eat a frickin star. But they view the warp as something of a threat. So how would a tiny mortal stand up to them if he could channel a tsunami of warp energy? Not sure.

Everything has its highs and lows in terms of how sweet or worthless it is, not really sure how the Big E and Horus stacked up because there are way too many conflicting stories of power. I'd assume with his doomsday blast the Big E was about as lethal a threat in that moment as the galaxy could produce - excluding the birth of Slaanesh, which holds the records for most dead the fastest (countless billions in mere seconds)

As for a common ork almost waxin the Emperor, yeah, even warbosses are nothing more then spores that grew into boyz that turned into nobs that became bosses. So a common ork almost waxed him. Granted it wasn't a boy, but it was just an ork no less. Perhaps the strongest or perhaps not even close, given we haven't seen every ork warboss.

If Lexicanum is right in that regard ( perhaps someone can check their sources? I lack the Inquisition sourcebook ) then an Alpha Plus psyker can duplicate all the feats that the false carriongod
and his sons did. From snaping titans in half ( which is in fact much more than Magnus managed to do to the Eldar titan ) to controling entire cities with his mind ( can't be less hard than merely forcing
a spacemarine legion to kneel ).

KingDeath wrote:If Lexicanum is right in that regard ( perhaps someone can check their sources? I lack the Inquisition sourcebook ) then an Alpha Plus psyker can duplicate all the feats that the God Emepror of Mankind.
and his sons did. From snaping titans in half ( which is in fact much more than Magnus managed to do to the Eldar titan ) to controling entire cities with his mind ( can't be less hard than merely forcing
a spacemarine legion to kneel ).

I said DO NOT spread HERESY!!!

and Alpha lever psykers are very rare. But even as powerful as they are they can't even come close to the Emperor and his sons ( remember that Emperor at his full power OBLITERATED HORUS SOUL IN SINGLE BLOW. None being in the universe have that kind of power ), you can see that by Golen Throne itself. Act's of Faith comes directly from him, at the same time all over the galaxy. And it is believed that he safeguard all Human souls that go to the War ( except those who sold them to CHaos - idiots ) and to power the Astronomicon ( who have range of 50.000 LY, that's half of the Milky Way galaxy ).

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:If Lexicanum is right in that regard ( perhaps someone can check their sources? I lack the Inquisition sourcebook ) then an Alpha Plus psyker can duplicate all the feats that the God Emepror of Mankind.
and his sons did. From snaping titans in half ( which is in fact much more than Magnus managed to do to the Eldar titan ) to controling entire cities with his mind ( can't be less hard than merely forcing
a spacemarine legion to kneel ).

I said DO NOT spread HERESY!!!

and Alpha lever psykers are very rare. But even as powerful as they are they can't even come close to the Emperor and his sons ( remember that Emperor at his full power OBLITERATED HORUS SOUL IN SINGLE BLOW. None being in the universe have that kind of power ), you can see that by Golen Throne itself. Act's of Faith comes directly from him, at the same time all over the galaxy. And it is believed that he safeguard all Human souls that go to the War ( except those who sold them to CHaos - idiots ) and to power the Astronomicon ( who have range of 50.000 LY, that's half of the Milky Way galaxy ).

Heresy lies in the eye of the beholder, lickspittle servant to a withering corpse
Note that i am not speaking of "mere" alpha level psykers but the even more powerful and rare alpha plus variant. Sadly i lack any direct sources for them but if Lexi is right then the alpha plus psykers exhibit the same powers and abilites that we have seen from the emprah and his sons. Where acts of faith come from is unknown, the faithful claim that it is their false emperor who causes them but i tell you that it is great Tzeentch who furthers his own mad and contradictory shemes with them
Obliterating Horus's soul was a nice feat, but not unusual. Eisenhorn completely destroyed a daemon ( both in realspace and in the warp ) and i see no reason why a much more powerful alpha plus psyker shouldn't be able to destroy a primarch's soul.
That the corpsegod saveguards human souls is a simple belief, sadly there are few people who return from death to answer that question ( perhaps Saint Drusus would have been able to to say something about it...one wonders if the imperial dogs would have liked what he would have had to say in that regard ).
The Astronomican is powered by thousands of psykers, ferried to terra by the black ships. Whatever is left of the false emperor ( and we all know that in truth the gods already gnaw on his withered soul ) is merely said to direct that power, still an impressive feat.

KingDeath wrote:
Heresy lies in the eye of the beholder, lickspittle servant to a withering corpse
Note that i am not speaking of "mere" alpha level psykers but the even more powerful and rare alpha plus variant. Sadly i lack any direct sources for them but if Lexi is right then the alpha plus psykers exhibit the same powers and abilites that we have seen from the emprah and his sons. Where acts of faith come from is unknown, the faithful claim that it is their false emperor who causes them but i tell you that it is great Tzeentch who furthers his own mad and contradictory shemes with them
Obliterating Horus's soul was a nice feat, but not unusual. Eisenhorn completely destroyed a daemon ( both in realspace and in the warp ) and i see no reason why a much more powerful alpha plus psyker shouldn't be able to destroy a primarch's soul.
That the corpsegod saveguards human souls is a simple belief, sadly there are few people who return from death to answer that question ( perhaps Saint Drusus would have been able to to say something about it...one wonders if the imperial dogs would have liked what he would have had to say in that regard ).
The Astronomican is powered by thousands of psykers, ferried to terra by the black ships. Whatever is left of the false emperor ( and we all know that in truth the gods already gnaw on his withered soul ) is merely said to direct that power, still an impressive feat.

I think that Magnus and the Emperor are a level above Alpha plus, if that's possible. Most of the other primarchs would probably have been Beta.

Heresy's fun, Coa. You get to do all kinds of fun things like rape, pillage, kill, maim, burn, shout 'DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR' and criticise people for driving METAL BAWXES!

Brother Coa wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:No living being would come close to the Emperor, in terms of psychic might.

True, aldo some people would suggest that Eldarad was more powerful. Because nowhere is stated that the Emperor is the "most powerful psyker ever" but "most powerful Human psyker ever". And Eldar fans are suing that to low the Emperor every time...

Because it's true.

The burden of proof is on the Imperial side to show proof that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker of all time. I think his power is nothing compared to the hive mind which directs the Tyranid hive fleets across multiple galaxies (making the Astronomicon look weak in comparison), making those same hive fleets adapt as needed to deal with certain battle tactics and abilities of the races they are trying to eat. And to be fair, the Eldar do call him a weakling seer on many occasions. On a few occasions Gork and Mork laugh him off as being just a nuisance and there is even fluff that says the Emperor shows fear because Gork and Mork decided to ignore his warnings in the Warp.

Even from the Imperiums own propoganda he is listed as the most powerful HUMAN....thats it...not the most powerful psyker.

I took you serious until I read that the Emperor fear Ork Gods...
Then I rest my case...
HE is the most powerful Human psyker in the galaxy. Hive Mind only Plantagenet is to be able to mind-control every servant from spore mine to Bio-Titan. Emperor didn't want that for Humanity, he wanted for all of us to be individuals...

I don't recall him showing fear from the Ork Gods ignoreing his baleful warning.

I imagine him being more

"get off my lawn you pair of reprobates!"

and them being a bit :

"zog off old man! Come and make us, when you get off Life Support!"

I still think Gork and Mork could take him, but there's not much supporting evidence either way, as they have little interest in each other directly.

This hasn't been ret-conned so you asked for it. Here it is. Official fluff from Titan Legions. It's in the Codex Titanicus page 68.

And I quote:

"Gork and Mork stirred and a wave of fear passed through the warp. Suicide and incidence of violent crime climbed steeply. On Icolbar an Astropath screamed and threw himself from the balcony of a starscraper apartment, yelling that his people were doomed. On the Craftworld Hope Of Other Days, an Eldar philosopher stopped listening to the atonal music of his waterchimes and began composing his death-haiku, feeling his life had been justified. On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries".

There ya go Coa..he does fear them..It's in the fluff and it hasn't been ret conned.

Thanks for that

It's been above a decade since i've played Titan Legions, and i'd forgotten

Roadkill Zombie wrote: On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries".

Aha, but in other sources the Emperor lost an eye! So there aren't two to open. Naw, I kid, but that's not necessarily a fear for himself; it could easily be a fear for the countless Humans that will die regardless of whether or not the Imperium falls. Besides, wasn't that passage in explanation to the creation of the Gargants?


Also, whether or not the Hive Mind is an entity is still up for grabs in my opinion. If it directly controlled every organism, the Swarmlord wouldn't be able to do what it does.

Durza wrote:I think that Magnus and the Emperor are a level above Alpha plus, if that's possible.

It's not possible, because Alpha Plus is literally a designation for "off the scale" above the Alpha level. There are no higher Imperial Assignment power levels although varying degrees of psychic power at Alpha+ exist.

Brother Coa wrote:I took you serious until I read that the Emperor fear Ork Gods...
Then I rest my case...
HE is the most powerful Human psyker in the galaxy. Hive Mind only Plantagenet is to be able to mind-control every servant from spore mine to Bio-Titan. Emperor didn't want that for Humanity, he wanted for all of us to be individuals...

In a few seconds, Slaanesh took a deep breathe in real space and killed the endless billions of the Eldar Empire.

No offense to the big E, but Chaos Gods take more violent yawns then him, when he is at full power no less.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote: On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries".

Aha, but in other sources the Emperor lost an eye! So there aren't two to open. Naw, I kid, but that's not necessarily a fear for himself; it could easily be a fear for the countless Humans that will die regardless of whether or not the Imperium falls. Besides, wasn't that passage in explanation to the creation of the Gargants?


Also, whether or not the Hive Mind is an entity is still up for grabs in my opinion. If it directly controlled every organism, the Swarmlord wouldn't be able to do what it does.

Yeah, the entire story is about the creation of gargants but that bit is about Gork and Mork awakening in the warp and the Emperor pissing himself because he realized they had awoken.

The hive mind doesn't control every single organism. Only the ones it wants to. It does leave some to think for themselves.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:This hasn't been ret-conned so you asked for it. Here it is. Official fluff from Titan Legions. It's in the Codex Titanicus page 68.

And I quote:

"Gork and Mork stirred and a wave of fear passed through the warp. Suicide and incidence of violent crime climbed steeply. On Icolbar an Astropath screamed and threw himself from the balcony of a starscraper apartment, yelling that his people were doomed. On the Craftworld Hope Of Other Days, an Eldar philosopher stopped listening to the atonal music of his waterchimes and began composing his death-haiku, feeling his life had been justified. On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries".

There ya go Coa..he does fear them..It's in the fluff and it hasn't been ret conned.

I thought that his eyes vanished centuries ago...this can't stand because Emperor doesn't have eyes.
And can I see that? Because I can't find it anywhere on the net + 2'nd edition only have 17 pages and there is nowere mention of this...

It's from the time when he still had eyes. When the Orks first created Gargants and the emperors eyes hadn't completely rotted out of his head yet.

And it isn't from 2nd edition, it's from Titan Legions...an Epic game...but it's still a part of the background of 40k as the beginnings to that story are in the current Ork codex.

Well I have downloaded Codex: Titanicus 2'nd edition from 1994 ( 1'st edition doesn't count sice it is older and every new codex replace older fluff ) and I didn't found that sentence, meaning that you have provided it from 1'st edition codex from 1989. I am sorry but that fluff is not valid anymore because 2'nd edition codex replace it.

Nice try dough


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But there was one interesting sentence there..."Ork communities tend to be scatter throughout the universe." Does that means that Ork have reached other galaxies?


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Roadkill Zombie wrote:It's from the time when he still had eyes. When the Orks first created Gargants and the emperors eyes hadn't completely rotted out of his head yet.

Do not lie, the text you provided clearly say: "living corpse on throne". Meaning it's from the 41'st millennium. And....

And it isn't from 2nd edition, it's from Titan Legions...an Epic game...but it's still a part of the background of 40k as the beginnings to that story are in the current Ork codex.

because it's from the 1'st edition fluff, and we have 2'nd edition fluff the 2'nd edition fluff replace 1'st edition fluff and there you go - this sentence is not valid anymore.

Uhlan wrote:Any corpse will do.

WIN!

Brother Coa wrote:Do not lie, the text you provided clearly say: "living corpse on throne". Meaning it's from the 41'st millennium. And....

...How does a reference to "living corpse on the throne" contradict his claim and mean that it's from the 41st millennium? Especially since it also mentions feeling fear in a measurement of centuries, which would suggest the event took place recently enough after the Horus Heresy.

Glowcat wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Do not lie, the text you provided clearly say: "living corpse on throne". Meaning it's from the 41'st millennium. And....

...How does a reference to "living corpse on the throne" contradict his claim and mean that it's from the 41st millennium? Especially since it also mentions feeling fear in a measurement of centuries, which would suggest the event took place recently enough after the Horus Heresy.

Because Emperor didn't react at all after they put him on the throne. And there is nothing in text that say from what time period it is, the man that posted said it was little before the heresy era ( obviously he didn't saw "corpse" word in text ).

I was checking the forum and what i saw in the background section was this

Beings that match The Emperor
At: 2011/09/27 20:53:53
By: Brother Coa

I ignored the the second line and "By:" in the third one...

I think we have a winner

If I really had that much power I would first go into the Eye of Terror and have a word with 4 unique persons. After that I would visit Tau, then C'Tan's, then Gork and Mork...
Let us just say that Galaxy woudl became a rather peaceful place...

Nice one Mr.Coa

Ok Coa, first, they ALWAYS refer to the Emperor as a corpse on the golden throne no matter what version you are talking about.

And you have a downloaded codex. I have the actual codex I bought with the game. Did it ever occur to you that whoever copied your version to the internet didn't copy the entire thing? Oh, and the copyright date on the codex I quoted from is 1994...

nice try though...

Brother Coa wrote:

If I really had that much power I would first go into the Eye of Terror and have a word with 4 unique persons. After that I would visit Tau, then C'Tan's, then Gork and Mork...
Let us just say that Galaxy woudl became a rather peaceful place...

Meh, you wouldn't want to be the corpsegod. In the best case your fractured mind and shattered body will suffer endless pain and torture while it tries to protect mankind as best as it can.
In the worst case your fractured mind is desperate to avoid the attention of some truly nasty entities which stalk the warp, eager to devour your soul.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Ok Coa, first, they ALWAYS refer to the Emperor as a corpse on the golden throne no matter what version you are talking about.

So even in the time of a Great Crusade he was corpse on the Gloden Throne?
I don't think so...



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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
And you have a downloaded codex. I have the actual codex I bought with the game. Did it ever occur to you that whoever copied your version to the internet didn't copy the entire thing? Oh, and the copyright date on the codex I quoted from is 1994...

nice try though...

I don't believe you...you must show me that I can read it. How can I know that you didn't change something? ADN this codex I downoaded have 144 pages, dates from 1994, Orks are on the 66'th page, have Orks, Eldar and Imperials... This is it:



And it is valid.

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KingDeath wrote:
Meh, you wouldn't want to be the corpsegod. In the best case your fractured mind and shattered body will suffer endless pain and torture while it tries to protect mankind as best as it can.
In the worst case your fractured mind is desperate to avoid the attention of some truly nasty entities which stalk the warp, eager to devour your soul.

We are talking about beings that match/are more powerful then him. That means that he would be on the throne while I would be free to go around the galaxy...
Got it now...?

Brother Coa wrote:
We are talking about beings that match/are more powerful then him. That means that he would be on the throne while I would be free to go around the galaxy...
Got it now...?

Meh, true.

Thats not a picture of the 2nd edition Codex Titanicus, that's a pic of the first edition codex titanicus. 2nd Edition has a picture of a Mega Gargant of the Orks on it. The picture you are showing is from the GAME of Adeptus titanicus, the one I have is from Titan Legions, just like I said in the beginning.

The text say: 2'nd edition...


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http://www.4shared.com/document/8LcZ4Won/Codex_-_Titanicus_2E.html


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Did you mean about this one:

http://www.filestube.com/aff3ab7a2afa1a1203ea,g/Warhammer-40K-Epic-Titan-Legions-Codex-Titanicus-b.html

Brother Coa wrote:Well I have downloaded Codex: Titanicus 2'nd edition from 1994 ( 1'st edition doesn't count sice it is older and every new codex replace older fluff ) and I didn't found that sentence, meaning that you have provided it from 1'st edition codex from 1989. I am sorry but that fluff is not valid anymore because 2'nd edition codex replace it.

Unless the second codex provides information that directly contradicts the info from the first, the first one's fluff is still valid.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:It's from the time when he still had eyes. When the Orks first created Gargants and the emperors eyes hadn't completely rotted out of his head yet.

Do not lie, the text you provided clearly say: "living corpse on throne". Meaning it's from the 41'st millennium.

There were actually 10 millennia between the Emperor being put on the Throne and the current setting. It could be anywhere between the 31st to the 33rd for the Emperor to possible still have eyes.

And it isn't from 2nd edition, it's from Titan Legions...an Epic game...but it's still a part of the background of 40k as the beginnings to that story are in the current Ork codex.

because it's from the 1'st edition fluff, and we have 2'nd edition fluff the 2'nd edition fluff replace 1'st edition fluff and there you go - this sentence is not valid anymore.

Again, not unless the second contradict the fluff provided in the first.

I have downloaded this codex and I must say:

-Story is in the 41'st millennium. It was said so in the beginning.
-The codex is old as hell ( they have entire section dedicated to Squats ).
-And Emperor don't have eyes anymore + he fear not for himself but for poor people because billion Orks were getting ready for WARGHHH!!!!! Witch is ok for father to be worrying for his children.

And has it been some new release? I mean, 1994 is LONG behind us... surely there is new edition released?

The text is wrong, that's the first edition codex titanicus from Adeptus Titanicus. That would be the first edition of the Epic game system dealing with Titans.

The one I'm referring to is the Titan Legions codex titanicus which is the 2nd edition of the Epic game system. Whoever you got that from doesn't know what they are talking about. I've even got the white dwarf that talks about both editions of the games and tells you which one is which (And it's got pictures to prove it), so I know I'm right. Not to mention I bought them all when they came out (I'm not exactly young )

And yeah, there have been a few additions since then. None of them contradict that fluff.

See post above...

Horus could beat the emperor don't bother replying because I won't be stuffed to find this thread again

Tzeentch any day

Me.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:This is where it gets hard to really tell...

Sang did break Ka'Bandahs back, but in the fight prior he had his Primarch legs broken and got knocked the f*** out. Ka"Bandah could have easily ripped his tiny little head off too while he was limp on the ground.

C'Tan are an iffy subject, we need more fluff on these guys. What we do know is that they have the power to eat a frickin star. But they view the warp as something of a threat. So how would a tiny mortal stand up to them if he could channel a tsunami of warp energy? Not sure.

Everything has its highs and lows in terms of how sweet or worthless it is, not really sure how the Big E and Horus stacked up because there are way too many conflicting stories of power. I'd assume with his doomsday blast the Big E was about as lethal a threat in that moment as the galaxy could produce - excluding the birth of Slaanesh, which holds the records for most dead the fastest (countless billions in mere seconds)

As for a common ork almost waxin the Emperor, yeah, even warbosses are nothing more then spores that grew into boyz that turned into nobs that became bosses. So a common ork almost waxed him. Granted it wasn't a boy, but it was just an ork no less. Perhaps the strongest or perhaps not even close, given we haven't seen every ork warboss.

And the second time they fought, after Ka'Bhanda struck Sanguinius with a cowardly sneak attack, Sanguinius proceeded to snap Ka'Bhanda's back over his knee. At best, you could argue they were equals, but considering how after Sanguinius had some experience with daemons, he crushed him, it's doubtful. Do note this is in fact the strongest Bloodthirster we speak of.

Considering a fleet of Blackstone Fortresses firing on the Void Dragon failed to kill it, only weakening it and making it sleepy, there exists no mortal that can begin to feth with a C'tan alone. Beyond that, the Void Dragon has also fought the Emperor, while it was weakened, and nearly killed him, shredding his armour and flesh and then nearly crushing him, until the Emperor found a weak point he could attack, thus besting it so he could seal it in Mars. Do note the Emperor admitted killing the Dragon was beyond his power. A starship imbued with a portion of the Nightbringer's power can destroy star systems on a whim. Oh, and the Hive Mind deliberately avoided the Outsider's Dyson Sphere, giving it a 100 lightyear space all for itself. In the Materium, nothing can begin to rival the C'tan. Certainly not the Swarmlord.

It is not impossible to believe that a signifigantly massive Waaagh! could produce a Warlord that has physical might enough to rival the Emperor. Though once more, it said he "struggled" to strangle the Emperor, not even that he was succeeding. Horus was able to kill him simply enough.

KingDeath wrote:If Lexicanum is right in that regard ( perhaps someone can check their sources? I lack the Inquisition sourcebook ) then an Alpha Plus psyker can duplicate all the feats that the false carriongod
and his sons did. From snaping titans in half ( which is in fact much more than Magnus managed to do to the Eldar titan ) to controling entire cities with his mind ( can't be less hard than merely forcing
a spacemarine legion to kneel ).

The 4e rulebook does indeed say that they can snap a Battle Titan in half or turn on army against one another, depending on their specialization.

Only it doesn't specify beyond "Battle Titan," Magnus has destroyed no less than two Titans that dwarfed Warlords, one an Eldar Titan, the other a Gargant. He tore the Gargant apart with a hurricane of fire. He also was able to tear apart the surface of Prospero while fighting Leman Russ, while also blasting Space Wolves and Custodes with his powers, and then had enough strength left to save his Legion. Magnus is uniquely the strongest psyker ever short of the Emperor, whom the Chaos Gods feared.

Oh, and would argue that mentally dominating the second largest Legion of Space Marine is far superior to controlling the minds of some random city.

Oh yeah, and beyond that, Malcador the Sigillite, a very powerful psyker in his own rite, capable of forcing a moon into the Immaterium, was nothing before the Emperor and Magnus the Red, he maintained the Golden Throne as long as he could, but eventually broke down.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Because it's true.

The burden of proof is on the Imperial side to show proof that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker of all time. I think his power is nothing compared to the hive mind which directs the Tyranid hive fleets across multiple galaxies (making the Astronomicon look weak in comparison), making those same hive fleets adapt as needed to deal with certain battle tactics and abilities of the races they are trying to eat. And to be fair, the Eldar do call him a weakling seer on many occasions. On a few occasions Gork and Mork laugh him off as being just a nuisance and there is even fluff that says the Emperor shows fear because Gork and Mork decided to ignore his warnings in the Warp.

Even from the Imperiums own propoganda he is listed as the most powerful HUMAN....thats it...not the most powerful psyker.

Well let's compare him to Eldrad, the strongest Eldar psyker we've ever witnessed. Eldrad ran away from a raging Fulgrim wielding a Daemonsword. The Emperor defeated Chaos Empowered Horus. So by feats the Emperor is stronger than the strongest Eldar psyker we have seen.

The Hive Mind controls one fleet to and from galaxies, and unlike the Astronomicon benefits from not being stationary, and kind of doesn't do what the Astronomicon does anyway. The Hive Mind went around the Outsider, compared to the Emperor, who personally fought and bested the Void Dragon. Sure, the Void Dragon was weakened, but is there any doubt the Outsider isn't as well?

Gork and Mork are more powerful than the Chaos Gods. The Emperor being less than them is not a bad feat.

Brother Coa wrote:Well I have downloaded Codex: Titanicus 2'nd edition from 1994 ( 1'st edition doesn't count sice it is older and every new codex replace older fluff ) and I didn't found that sentence, meaning that you have provided it from 1'st edition codex from 1989. I am sorry but that fluff is not valid anymore because 2'nd edition codex replace it.

Nice try dough

But fluff about the Sensei is Valid? That stuff is from 3rd edition, and has been replaced with a Tzeentchian cult in a BL book.

Even if that sentence is from a Codex from 1989, nothing has retconned the Emprah being afraid of Gork and Mork. It just hasn't been brought up again since.

Can't play that game, Coa.

Actually the Tzeentchi cult thing was also in the 3rd edition rulebook

Tzeentch.

Tzeentch is the deity.

Tzeentchi are the cultists

Like slaanesh and slaaneshi..

If i'm spelling his confusedness's name wrong it's probably because i'm about 3 sheets to the wind and very very tired...

Ascalam wrote:Actually the Tzeentchi cult thing was also in the 3rd edition rulebook

Was it in a Novel too? Or is this another one of my wonderful moments when I remember enough about the books to be more wrong than right?

Not sure. I've not read all the BL books. I have the 3rd Ed rulebook on hand though

Either way, it's official, though some will still argue it anyway

Eldrad is a psyker, not a battle hardened warlord. He knew his skills in close combat were no match for a raging Chaos Primarch. He was smart enough to know not to play Fulgrim's game. Instead he did what any smart guy would do, use his brains for something other than being a target for a raging primarch and live to fight another day, only next time on his own terms, not Fulgrim's.

Eldrad WAS a psyker... Slaanesh finally got him

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Eldrad is a psyker, not a battle hardened warlord. He knew his skills in close combat were no match for a raging Chaos Primarch. He was smart enough to know not to play Fulgrim's game. Instead he did what any smart guy would do, use his brains for something other than being a target for a raging primarch and live to fight another day, only next time on his own terms, not Fulgrim's.

There was nothing Eldrad gained in sparing Fulgrim.

Eldrad fled from Fulgrim because he would of died if he did not.

Oh, and Eldrad is a battle-hardened warlord. We're talking about the person who bested Abaddon in combat.

But that's not the point, were Eldrad more powerful than the Emperor as a psyker, he would have just done what the Emperor did to the much more powerful Chaos Horus. Blasted his soul to nothingness.

Soladrin wrote:Just wondering if there has been any other being that came close to The Emperors psychic might. I was thinking Eldrad, but I doubt it...

So yeah, that's about it, shoot away!

Sanguinius, the fluff says the only psyker better then him wa the big E.
And yes, Chuck Norris.

thenoobbomb wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Just wondering if there has been any other being that came close to The Emperors psychic might. I was thinking Eldrad, but I doubt it...

So yeah, that's about it, shoot away!

Sanguinius, the fluff says the only psyker better then him wa the big E.
And yes, Chuck Norris.

I think you're thinking of Magnus there, mate...

Iur_tae_mont wrote:
But fluff about the Sensei is Valid? That stuff is from 3rd edition, and has been replaced with a Tzeentchian cult in a BL book.

Even if that sentence is from a Codex from 1989, nothing has retconned the Emprah being afraid of Gork and Mork. It just hasn't been brought up again since.

Can't play that game, Coa.

I know, it just have few mistakes taht's all....
It's perfectly fine to be afraid for your children after billion Orks get up and start WARGHHH!!!!


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In my opinion - Tzeentch. Because he can see the future.

That line about the Emperor being afraid didn't say he was afraid for his children. The story goes on for a few pages more before it even talks about the Emperor getting the humans ready to deal with the Ork invasion. It wasn't just the big E afraid for humans, it was the big E actually afraid because Gork and Mork had stirred in the Warp. He was afraid for himself.

Because Gork and Mork could probably curbstomp him, and unlike the other 'gods' he is tied to the materium by his corpse, which is also holding the whole of the Imperium together, supposedly... It gives him a bit of an achilles heel.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:That line about the Emperor being afraid didn't say he was afraid for his children. The story goes on for a few pages more before it even talks about the Emperor getting the humans ready to deal with the Ork invasion. It wasn't just the big E afraid for humans, it was the big E actually afraid because Gork and Mork had stirred in the Warp. He was afraid for himself.

And neither did it say that he was afraid for himself, or for waffles, or for Theodore Roosevelt. We just don't have any information of what it was that he feared about Gork and Mork.

Brother Coa wrote:In my opinion - Tzeentch. Because he can see the future.

Except he can't...

Void__Dragon wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:This is where it gets hard to really tell...

Sang did break Ka'Bandahs back, but in the fight prior he had his Primarch legs broken and got knocked the f*** out. Ka"Bandah could have easily ripped his tiny little head off too while he was limp on the ground.

And the second time they fought, after Ka'Bhanda struck Sanguinius with a cowardly sneak attack, Sanguinius proceeded to snap Ka'Bhanda's back over his knee. At best, you could argue they were equals, but considering how after Sanguinius had some experience with daemons, he crushed him, it's doubtful. Do note this is in fact the strongest Bloodthirster we speak of.

Though since Sanguinius is the second or third strongest primarch, this leaves some doubt over whether the others could achieve the same feat. Note that by strongest, I meant one of two primarchs considered able to beat Angron in single combat. (I would argue that Fulgrim could have beaten him with skillage and Magnus could have ripped him apart with his mind as well, but keh)

Tzeentch CAN see the future.

Unfortunately the futuure is an everchanging mess of probability that even he can't keep straight, as it changes moment to moment, with possible futures being kind of a 'best guess' as to what will really happen...

Same goes for anyone else given to prophecy.

No, Tzeentch threw a Changer of Ways into the Well of Time to read the future for him. He can't see the future and play the Game at the same time.

even fateweaver cant see all the future
when he is injured he retreat to the warp because he fear his master is hinding something from him
so the future is uncertain lol

Durza wrote:No, Tzeentch threw a Changer of Ways into the Well of Time to read the future for him. He can't see the future and play the Game at the same time.

The changer of ways is unstable and crazy, so though he can see the future he is also unreliable.

As is everything to do with Tzeentch.

Durza wrote:Though since Sanguinius is the second or third strongest primarch, this leaves some doubt over whether the others could achieve the same feat. Note that by strongest, I meant one of two primarchs considered able to beat Angron in single combat. (I would argue that Fulgrim could have beaten him with skillage and Magnus could have ripped him apart with his mind as well, but keh)

After actually reading their first fight, I would say Sanguinius is probably stronger than Ka'Bhanda. Sanguinius was beating Ka'Bhanda in the melee, until Ka'Bhanda's whip tripped him up and broke his legs.

Though that's true, Sanguinius is certainly one of the strongest Primarchs in terms of martial combat. But Ka'Bhanda is the strongest Bloodthirster. Oh, and Corax wasn't actually sure if Sanguinius could beat Angron.

Which makes him the second or third strongest physically, since only Horus was definitely able to beat Angron.

Durza wrote:Which makes him the second or third strongest physically, since only Horus was definitely able to beat Angron.

To be honest I don't know why people think Corax is so infallible. Corax thought only Horus or maybe Sanguinius could best Angron. Dorn, on the other hand, was confident he could hand Angron his ass. Dorn then proceeded to be beaten by Curze, albeit in a sneak attack, who more or less stalemated the Lion, who stalemated/beat Leman Russ.

I've also heard mention of Leman Russ beating Horus in a duel, but I personally won't believe it until I'm given an actual source.

Eldrad does have amazing psychic powers, but none that match those of the Emperor.

Eldrad does have amazing psychic powers, but none that match those of the Emperor.

Eldrad has more psychic power in his little finger than any human has in his entire body, including the big E.

Rocky1 wrote:
Eldrad has more psychic power in his little finger than any human has in his entire body, including the big E.

That'd be why Eldrad fled from a Primarch, then.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Rocky1 wrote:
Eldrad has more psychic power in his little finger than any human has in his entire body, including the big E.

That'd be why Eldrad fled from a Primarch, then.

Eldrad never battled a primarch.

Jollydevil wrote:Eldrad never battled a primarch.

We know. He ran away from one. Fulgrim, to be specific. Not even one of the strongest Primarchs.

The Emperor, or Magnus for that matter, are much more powerful than Eldrad.

In Collected Visions, the Chaos Gods claim the Emperor's psychic might is devastating the Realm of Chaos. In the 5e rulebook, the Emperor's psychic might stops the worst of Chaos' predations from coming through.

The Emperor is uniquely the strongest psyker ever.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:Eldrad never battled a primarch.

We know. He ran away from one. Fulgrim, to be specific. Not even one of the strongest Primarchs.

The Emperor, or Magnus for that matter, are much more powerful than Eldrad.

In Collected Visions, the Chaos Gods claim the Emperor's psychic might is devastating the Realm of Chaos. In the 5e rulebook, the Emperor's psychic might stops the worst of Chaos' predations from coming through.

The Emperor is uniquely the strongest psyker ever.

Where are you getting your intel from? Every source i can find hasnt said word one about Eldrad even coming near Fulgrim, or any other primarch.

Jollydevil wrote:Where are you getting your intel from? Every source i can find hasnt said word one about Eldrad even coming near Fulgrim, or any other primarch.

The Horus Heresy novel "Fulgrim."

Eldrad tried to warn Fulgrim of the Warmaster's betrayal, only to realise that Fulgrim was tainted by Chaos. Fulgrim proceeded to cut a Wave Serpent in half and crush Eldrad's Wraithlord bodyguard. Eldrad ran away, opting to sicc an Avatar of Khaine on Fulgrim. Fulgrim proceeded to kill it.

Also, Lexicanum supports this as well.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fulgrim

"Fulgrim furiously attacked Eldrad alongside his captains and the Phoenix Guard, destroying both Khiraen Goldhelm, an ancient and revered Wraithlord as well as an Avatar of Khaine in the process, forcing Eldrad and his beleagured forces to withdraw. This victory to Fulgrim's subsequent destruction of various Eldar maiden worlds using virus bombs as a means to end the supposed treachery of the Eldar."

Void__Dragon wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:Where are you getting your intel from? Every source i can find hasnt said word one about Eldrad even coming near Fulgrim, or any other primarch.

The Horus Heresy novel "Fulgrim."

Eldrad tried to warn Fulgrim of the Warmaster's betrayal, only to realise that Fulgrim was tainted by Chaos. Fulgrim proceeded to cut a Wave Serpent in half and crush Eldrad's Wraithlord bodyguard. Eldrad ran away, opting to sicc an Avatar of Khaine on Fulgrim. Fulgrim proceeded to kill it.

Also, Lexicanum supports this as well.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fulgrim

"Fulgrim furiously attacked Eldrad alongside his captains and the Phoenix Guard, destroying both Khiraen Goldhelm, an ancient and revered Wraithlord as well as an Avatar of Khaine in the process, forcing Eldrad and his beleagured forces to withdraw. This victory to Fulgrim's subsequent destruction of various Eldar maiden worlds using virus bombs as a means to end the supposed treachery of the Eldar."

Alright thanks. In the process of reading the book now, and Eldrads Lexicanum page doesnt say word one about him actually engaging fulgrim in battle, or anything close; just saying "but fulgrim was already tainted by chaos". Lexicanum, youve failed me. *chokes with mind*

The only reason Eldrad didn't fry Fulgrims brain with psychic power like the big E did with Horus was because Eldrad knows that kind of power unleashed by any eldar will immediately draw the attention of Slaanesh and in this case it would rip Eldrads soul from his body. That's why the Eldar put constraints on their minds, called the path of the seer in this case.

It isn't because Eldrad didn't have the power to do it, it's because he had the common sense not to.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:The only reason Eldrad didn't fry Fulgrims brain with psychic power like the big E did with Horus was because Eldrad knows that kind of power unleashed by any eldar will immediately draw the attention of Slaanesh and in this case it would rip Eldrads soul from his body. That's why the Eldar put constraints on their minds, called the path of the seer in this case.

It isn't because Eldrad didn't have the power to do it, it's because he had the common sense not to.

In other words you don't actually have any proof and are making an assumption based on frankly nothing. And even if Eldrad is as strong as you say, by your own words he is unable to use this power.

All Primarchs have built-in psychic defenses, even Fulgrim was immune to total possession until he allowed the Daemon to do so.

Eldrad doesn't even begin to rival Magnus the Red as a psyker, let alone the Emperor himself.

You are also referring to books that are made to make space marines look like gods. Fluff states that Eldar are by far the most powerful Psykers in the universe, and since Eldrad is one of the most powerful Eldar Psykers...

And yet, these books are officially canon, depicting what really happened. So whether Eldrad was unable to fry Fulgrim, or chose not to, it doesn't change the fact that Fulgrim served Eldrad's army its own arse, with compliments from the chef.

BlueDagger wrote:You are also referring to books that are made to make space marines look like gods.

The Primarchs are gods in all but name. The Space Marines are not quite gods, but them being powerful in combat is no invention of the HH series.

Beyond that, point? The Horus Heresy series is, if such a thing can be said, the most canon stuff BL puts out, being made to expand upon the setting and having much more supervision.

Fluff states that Eldar are by far the most powerful Psykers in the universe, and since Eldrad is one of the most powerful Eldar Psykers...

Eldar on average are more powerful than human psykers. That is true.

But it's a fallacy to assume that's always the case.

The Emperor and Magnus the Red's feats of raw psychic might would make any Eldar psyker blush in inadequacy.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:The only reason Eldrad didn't fry Fulgrims brain with psychic power like the big E did with Horus was because Eldrad knows that kind of power unleashed by any eldar will immediately draw the attention of Slaanesh and in this case it would rip Eldrads soul from his body. That's why the Eldar put constraints on their minds, called the path of the seer in this case.

It isn't because Eldrad didn't have the power to do it, it's because he had the common sense not to.

In other words you don't actually have any proof and are making an assumption based on frankly nothing. And even if Eldrad is as strong as you say, by your own words he is unable to use this power.

All Primarchs have built-in psychic defenses, even Fulgrim was immune to total possession until he allowed the Daemon to do so.

Eldrad doesn't even begin to rival Magnus the Red as a psyker, let alone the Emperor himself.

No, I'm actually talking about Eldrad having a power we all know about and I use quite often in game. It's called Mind War. It's the Eldar farseer power that allows Eldrad to fry the brain of any living being including Daemon Primarchs.

If he were to use that on Fulgrim at it's full power, without the constraints of the Eldar Seer path, then Fulgrim would have been slain but that would have led Eldrad down the path of damnation and possibly possession by Slaanesh daemons. This is talked about in the Eldar codex quite a bit. It talks about how they dare not use their full power because of the risk involved.

The one you see him use in game is the one using the constraints of the Seer path. And that one can still kill any commander in the game if they are not completely immune to psychic powers. That's more than an assumption based on frankly nothing, it's a fact based on known powers of Eldrad.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:No, I'm actually talking about Eldrad having a power we all know about and I use quite often in game. It's called Mind War. It's the Eldar farseer power that allows Eldrad to fry the brain of any living being including Daemon Primarchs.

If he were to use that on Fulgrim at it's full power, without the constraints of the Eldar Seer path, then Fulgrim would have been slain but that would have led Eldrad down the path of damnation and possibly possession by Slaanesh daemons. This is talked about in the Eldar codex quite a bit. It talks about how they dare not use their full power because of the risk involved.

The one you see him use in game is the one using the constraints of the Seer path. And that one can still kill any commander in the game if they are not completely immune to psychic powers. That's more than an assumption based on frankly nothing, it's a fact based on known powers of Eldrad.

So it's an assumption based on gameplay mechanics.

I'm sorry, but Fulgrim's mental defenses were to the point where he had to allow a powerful Greater Daemon who could corrupt a planet from a sword possess him. Gameplay mechanics are not feats. I mean hey, what if Fulgrim were to roll higher than Eldrad on the Leadership test?

Not buying it. Numerous psykers have the ability to completely obliterate minds, it's not that uncommon a power. You are assuming Eldrad can do something he never has based on gameplay mechanics, and even in-game Mind War only causes "wounds," what if Fulgrim has over five wounds, then clearly he could survive it.

The Emperor and Magnus the Red have psychic might that would make Eldrad feel completely inadequate in comparison. And even Magnus couldn't just blast the minds of Primarchs. Would of come in handy against Leman Russ.

"'I will not listen to you!' roared Fulgrim, drawing his sword. Eldrad
staggered as though a sudden force assailed him. The farseer's dark eyes
flashed to the blade and his features twisted in an expression of horror
and anguish.
'No!' cried Eldrad, as a great wind that seemed to rise from nowhere
howled around the stunned observers. Fulgrim's blade swept out towards
Eldrad's neck, cleaving the air in a sweeping, silver arc.
A fraction of a second before the sword took the farseer's head an
enormous blade flashed and intercepted its deadly edge. An explosion of
sparks burst before Eldrad and he staggered away from Fulgrim as the
wraithlord stood erect, its huge sword drawing back to strike at the
primarch."

This is not the reaction of a man who could of just obliterated Fulgrim's mind on a whim.

It sounds like the reaction one might have when they find out the one they trust the most in a rival empire has just betrayed the universe.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:The only reason Eldrad didn't fry Fulgrims brain with psychic power like the big E did with Horus was because Eldrad knows that kind of power unleashed by any eldar will immediately draw the attention of Slaanesh and in this case it would rip Eldrads soul from his body. That's why the Eldar put constraints on their minds, called the path of the seer in this case.

It isn't because Eldrad didn't have the power to do it, it's because he had the common sense not to.

In other words you don't actually have any proof and are making an assumption based on frankly nothing. And even if Eldrad is as strong as you say, by your own words he is unable to use this power.

All Primarchs have built-in psychic defenses, even Fulgrim was immune to total possession until he allowed the Daemon to do so.

Eldrad doesn't even begin to rival Magnus the Red as a psyker, let alone the Emperor himself.

No, I'm actually talking about Eldrad having a power we all know about and I use quite often in game. It's called Mind War. It's the Eldar farseer power that allows Eldrad to fry the brain of any living being including Daemon Primarchs.

If he were to use that on Fulgrim at it's full power, without the constraints of the Eldar Seer path, then Fulgrim would have been slain but that would have led Eldrad down the path of damnation and possibly possession by Slaanesh daemons. This is talked about in the Eldar codex quite a bit. It talks about how they dare not use their full power because of the risk involved.

The one you see him use in game is the one using the constraints of the Seer path. And that one can still kill any commander in the game if they are not completely immune to psychic powers. That's more than an assumption based on frankly nothing, it's a fact based on known powers of Eldrad.

Except he's never had the opportunity to try use it against a Daemon Primarch, since Angron's the only one that's been used, and I think he might be immune to psychic powers... And you are basing it on nothing, because Fulgrim was resistant to psychic powers.

It's a moot point either way, because Eldrad, as you said, can't use enough power to kill Fulgrim without dying himself.

@Jollydevil, surely the Eldar should have had a plan for such an outcome, especially if Eldrad was able to kill Fulgrim.

Should have.
However under the circumstances they probably werent planning this endevor under the course of weeks, or even days. And thus it was probably pretty unexpected that one of the only people eldrad trusted within the imperium had already fallen to chaos, which had never been considered into the equation given how little time the eldar needed to act in.

Jollydevil wrote:It sounds like the reaction one might have when they find out the one they trust the most in a rival empire has just betrayed the universe.

Eldar trusting the Imperium?

usrs?

The only reason this meeting happened, rather than the Eldar trying to blow up the Imperial ships, is because Fulgrim, when landing on Maiden Worlds, was so moved by their beauty that he didn't dare soil them via annexing them.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:It sounds like the reaction one might have when they find out the one they trust the most in a rival empire has just betrayed the universe.

Eldar trusting the Imperium?

usrs?

The only reason this meeting happened, rather than the Eldar trying to blow up the Imperial ships, is because Fulgrim, when landing on Maiden Worlds, was so moved by their beauty that he didn't dare soil them via annexing them.

And wouldnt you be surprised had said person turned to chaos?

Even if Eldrad had power above what he uses, what is the use in haveing such power if he can't use it because he gets utterly raped by slannesh

JamesMclaren123 wrote:He can't use it because he gets utterly raped by slannesh

He is now...

But to sum it up...only "things" that can match the Emperor's strength are: Tyranid Hive Mind ( because we don't know what that is ) and C'Tan who are basically mini-gods.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Even if Eldrad had power above what he uses, what is the use in haveing such power if he can't use it because he gets utterly raped by slannesh

I think it was more of that because it was the times of the heresy next to Fulgrim whose already being watched by slaanesh, it would be especially risky to use full power because the chaos gods are more observant.
Just my 2cents.

Gharkul Blackfang(atleast i think thats his name) is the Biggest ork in recorded history. He was the one who began to strangle the emperor before Horus stepped in. He beats the emperor in physical might, and also outsmarted him on various occasions i think mostly because the emperor believed him to be stupid "cus he just an ork!"

I guess now that rumor necron fluff seems to say the the Void Dragon was a mere shard of the whole, the Emperor actually wouldn't have matched up with, at all, with a complete and whole Void Dragon.

King Pariah wrote:I guess now that rumor necron fluff seems to say the the Void Dragon was a mere shard of the whole, the Emperor actually wouldn't have matched up with, at all, with a complete and whole Void Dragon.

I wouldn't take rumors as fact especially when they're stating one faction is better than another.

Brother Coa wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:He can't use it because he gets utterly raped by slannesh

He is now...

But to sum it up...only "things" that can match the Emperor's strength are: Tyranid Hive Mind ( because we don't know what that is ) and C'Tan who are basically mini-gods. And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.

Fixed.

Durza wrote:And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.

Fixed.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.

Fixed.

Uh...Emperor killed Horus while this was on his full power in like 2 seconds. And Chaos Gods can't invade material realm because Emperor is holding them back with his psychic might.
How is that equal?

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.
Fixed.

Uh...Emperor killed Horus while this was on his full power in like 2 seconds. And Chaos Gods can't invade material realm because Emperor is holding them back with his psychic might.
How is that equal?

Exactly

He was only able to kill Horus because Sanguinius had put a chink in his armour which allowed the Emperor to use his powers in the first place. If Horus' armour had been intact, the Emperor would've been helpless. And in case you don't remember, the Emperor's been on life support since that fight.

And Chaos Gods can't invade the material realm period. The live in the Warp and have no interest in even trying to materialise in real space. It's like saying the C'tan don't invade the Warp because the Tau Etherals are stopping them.

I hope your not seriously using that as your arguement. That was just something made up by crazed sanguinus fans who think sanguinus could best an entire population of hive tyrants without breaking a sweat.

And yet, it's put down in fluff, and there's nothing countering it.

Durza wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.
Fixed.

Uh...Emperor killed Horus while this was on his full power in like 2 seconds. And Chaos Gods can't invade material realm because Emperor is holding them back with his psychic might.
How is that equal?

Exactly

He was only able to kill Horus because Sanguinius had put a chink in his armour which allowed the Emperor to use his powers in the first place. If Horus' armour had been intact, the Emperor would've been helpless. And in case you don't remember, the Emperor's been on life support since that fight.

And Chaos Gods can't invade the material realm period. The live in the Warp and have no interest in even trying to materialise in real space. It's like saying the C'tan don't invade the Warp because the Tau Etherals are stopping them.

if you care to remember the emporer was not going all out on horus beliveing his sone could still be saved, as soon as the custode was killed the big E finnished horus in seconds.

And still had his back broken and his arm pulled off. There wan't such a huge divide between Horus and the Emperor as some people seem to think. The Dark Gods aren't going to empower Horus so he's less powerful than the Emperor. They were more or less equal in my book.

If a near death Emperor can mind bullet horus to death in one go, I think a not so dead Emperor who put some effort into it would be outclassing horus by quite a bit.

Soladrin wrote:If a near death Emperor can mind bullet horus to death in one go, I think a not so dead Emperor who put some effort into it would be outclassing horus by quite a bit.

Yet he allowed himself to be nearly killed. If he's that powerful he wouldn't of allowed that to happen.

He did allow it, because he's a sentimental old sod who thought he could still save horus.

Soladrin wrote:He did allow it, because he's a sentimental old sod who thought he could still save horus.

There's still a huge hole in your reasoning you're not able to fill. If the Emperor was so vastly more powerful than Horus, he wouldn't of allowed himself to be nearly killed. They were equal, hence why Horus was winning when the Emperor held back, but lost when the Emperor used all of his power to kill Horus.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Durza wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.
Fixed.

Uh...Emperor killed Horus while this was on his full power in like 2 seconds. And Chaos Gods can't invade material realm because Emperor is holding them back with his psychic might.
How is that equal?

Exactly

He was only able to kill Horus because Sanguinius had put a chink in his armour which allowed the Emperor to use his powers in the first place. If Horus' armour had been intact, the Emperor would've been helpless. And in case you don't remember, the Emperor's been on life support since that fight.

And Chaos Gods can't invade the material realm period. The live in the Warp and have no interest in even trying to materialise in real space. It's like saying the C'tan don't invade the Warp because the Tau Etherals are stopping them.

if you care to remember the emporer was not going all out on horus beliveing his sone could still be saved, as soon as the custode was killed the big E finnished horus in seconds.

What book exactly is this from? (sorry, looking to start getting more into the fluff...)

iproxtaco wrote:

Soladrin wrote:He did allow it, because he's a sentimental old sod who thought he could still save horus.

There's still a huge hole in your reasoning you're not able to fill. If the Emperor was so vastly more powerful than Horus, he wouldn't of allowed himself to be nearly killed. They were equal, hence why Horus was winning when the Emperor held back, but lost when the Emperor used all of his power to kill Horus.

Not really, his mind was vastly more powerfull (hence, mind bullets) his physical form? Not so much.

Soladrin wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Soladrin wrote:He did allow it, because he's a sentimental old sod who thought he could still save horus.

There's still a huge hole in your reasoning you're not able to fill. If the Emperor was so vastly more powerful than Horus, he wouldn't of allowed himself to be nearly killed. They were equal, hence why Horus was winning when the Emperor held back, but lost when the Emperor used all of his power to kill Horus.

Not really, his mind was vastly more powerfull (hence, mind bullets) his physical form? Not so much.

What's the difference? Both were weapons, and Horus still mortally wounded him despite it.

One got hurt, the other didn't? Not that hard to see the difference.

And we haven't actually been told how many blows horus might have landed. (AFAIK)

Could well have been him doing his super move when the Emperors defenses were down while trying to convince him.

And the fact that the Emperor won with his crappified body, against an almost unhurt horus shows quite clearly they were never anywhere near equal.

That's not really a difference. The were both about to die.

He broke the Emperor's back, tore of his arm, and fired him with Warp powers to the point where his eye fell out.

Speculation. If there was such a massive difference between the two, the Emperor would have just batted away Horus's attacks until the moment came.

If we're going to speculate, then the Emperor only won because Horus had a chink in his armour, courtesy of Sanguinus.

Ok, the point is, I'm saying they were never equal, your saying that I'm saying (see what I did there?) that theres a massive difference. It's not massive, but there always was a difference. Be it with or without chaos shenanigens.

"Never anywhere near equal". Yeah, you're saying there's a big difference.

Big and massive are quite different.

Semantics. There's a difference of significant magnitude to ensure the Emperor is apparently quite a bit more powerful than Horus. Whatever word you or I want to use is irrelevant, there was no difference. They were equal in terms of power in the material world.

Then I'll just agree to disagree cause it seems we're both not going shift our position on this anyway.

nectarprime wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Durza wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.
Fixed.

Uh...Emperor killed Horus while this was on his full power in like 2 seconds. And Chaos Gods can't invade material realm because Emperor is holding them back with his psychic might.
How is that equal?

Exactly

He was only able to kill Horus because Sanguinius had put a chink in his armour which allowed the Emperor to use his powers in the first place. If Horus' armour had been intact, the Emperor would've been helpless. And in case you don't remember, the Emperor's been on life support since that fight.

And Chaos Gods can't invade the material realm period. The live in the Warp and have no interest in even trying to materialise in real space. It's like saying the C'tan don't invade the Warp because the Tau Etherals are stopping them.

if you care to remember the emporer was not going all out on horus beliveing his sone could still be saved, as soon as the custode was killed the big E finnished horus in seconds.

What book exactly is this from? (sorry, looking to start getting more into the fluff...)

It's from most Chaos Codices, though the details vary with the edition. And a single, all-out attack that destroyed Horus when he believed his father to be vanquished doesn't necessarily mean the Emperor completely outclassed them. People are capable of breaking their own limits when they need to.

he try to save his son and he paid the price for that "love"

I think it's pretty obvious that the Emperor was stronger.

Horus gak his pants when his father started to bring his full power to bare on him. Do note this was while the Emperor was by all accounts fethed up, and Horus wasn't injured at all.

It's really simple.

Horus had the backing of all 4 Chaos Gods and was still only able to hurt the Emperor because he let him, his heart wasn't in it and he didn't want to kill his favoured Son. When he knew he had to he killed him in one hit and completely decimated his soul.

Or maybe he let his guard down when his father was effectively dead in front of him, only to be surprised by a final attack. The Emperor was definitely stronger, but not so much so that Horus didn't have a chance. If he was, Horus wouldn't have injured him while the Emperor was defending.

Durza wrote:Or maybe he let his guard down when his father was effectively dead in front of him, only to be surprised by a final attack. The Emperor was definitely stronger, but not so much so that Horus didn't have a chance. If he was, Horus wouldn't have injured him while the Emperor was defending.

Except the Emperor was convinced that Horus was going to come to his senses and repent. He wouldn't fight back because that'd risk aggravating Horus and destroying everything.

Might help

It's the original Bill King story that appeared in White Dwarf as well as Realms of Chaos.

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

Durza wrote:The Emperor was definitely stronger, but not so much so that Horus didn't have a chance.

Horus didn't have a chance against the Emperor when the Emperor used His full power. Horus could injure the Emperors body, but if I recall correctly he never did anything to the Emperors soul. We're talking about a specific type of power here; it's not as simple as "if one was significantly stronger he should be to stop the other person without injuring him". A man with a knife can usually kill someone who's unarmed, but if he tries not to actually kill that person then the unarmed person can easily overpower him.

I admit that Horus was perhaps not as strong as the Emperor when the latter used the absolute extent of his power, but I still contest that the difference was huge, according to some people.

But it was huge, when the Emperor decided enough was enough and he was beyong saving he killed Horus outright even with horrific injuries. These injuries were ALLOWED to happen to himself, he wasn't fighting back, he was trying to save his son.

Blood_Raven wrote:But it was huge, when the Emperor decided enough was enough and he was beyong saving he killed Horus outright even with horrific injuries. These injuries were ALLOWED to happen to himself, he wasn't fighting back, he was trying to save his son.

No, the difference wasn't huge. Again, the Emperor was mortally wounded. If he's so much more powerful than Horus, he wouldn't have allowed his arm to be ripped off, his back to be broken, and his head fried to the point where is eye came out.

iproxtaco wrote:
No, the difference wasn't huge. Again, the Emperor was mortally wounded. If he's so much more powerful than Horus, he wouldn't have allowed his arm to be ripped off, his back to be broken, and his head fried to the point where is eye came out.

It's not the same type of power though. The Emperor was capable of annihilating Horus' soul. It explicitly states in the Bill King story that "He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him." It was a significant use of His powers, but once the Emperor decided to kill Horus, He did. Completely.

Yeah, I agree, but the difference wasn't huge.

Durza wrote:

nectarprime wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Durza wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:And the Chaos Gods, Horus, and beings with the ability to breath unaided.
Fixed.

Uh...Emperor killed Horus while this was on his full power in like 2 seconds. And Chaos Gods can't invade material realm because Emperor is holding them back with his psychic might.
How is that equal?

Exactly

He was only able to kill Horus because Sanguinius had put a chink in his armour which allowed the Emperor to use his powers in the first place. If Horus' armour had been intact, the Emperor would've been helpless. And in case you don't remember, the Emperor's been on life support since that fight.

And Chaos Gods can't invade the material realm period. The live in the Warp and have no interest in even trying to materialise in real space. It's like saying the C'tan don't invade the Warp because the Tau Etherals are stopping them.

if you care to remember the emporer was not going all out on horus beliveing his sone could still be saved, as soon as the custode was killed the big E finnished horus in seconds.

What book exactly is this from? (sorry, looking to start getting more into the fluff...)

It's from most Chaos Codices, though the details vary with the edition. And a single, all-out attack that destroyed Horus when he believed his father to be vanquished doesn't necessarily mean the Emperor completely outclassed them. People are capable of breaking their own limits when they need to.

I read it on lexicanum so..

@iproxtaco you can be much more powerful and still get you ass kicked if you not trying, being powerful dose not mean you can stop every attack against you

If the Emperor was so absurdly superior to Horus, nonlethally subduing him or defending against him (Seriously, psykers can create shields dude) would have been a small feat.

The Emperor was more powerful psychically (I don't think so physically though). But he wasn't above Horus to some absurd degree.

He let himself get injured, if he fought back he would easily kill him which he does end up doing.

Blood_Raven wrote:He let himself get injured

No, he did not let himself have his chest torn open, his jugular ripped out, his faced scalded until his eyeball popped, his arm ripped off, his wrist broken, or his spine split in two.

It is constantly emphasized it would require nothing less than the Emperor's full power to defeat Horus. If he was so much stronger than Horus, his full power would not be necessary.

Let me put it in real world terms.

A dad who is a professional cage fighter and his son who he teaches get into a fight over something.

The dad doesn't want to use his full skill against his son because it could kill him. The son on the other hand really has no qualms with going all out and manages to break a few of his dads bones.

The dad finally so annoyed uses his full skill on the son and the son is ko'd in one punch.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:He let himself get injured

No, he did not let himself have his chest torn open, his jugular ripped out, his faced scalded until his eyeball popped, his arm ripped off, his wrist broken, or his spine split in two.

It is constantly emphasized it would require nothing less than the Emperor's full power to defeat Horus. If he was so much stronger than Horus, his full power would not be necessary.

A simple question would be: would you kill your own son in that situation? Or would you try to bring him back no matter the cost?

Brother Coa wrote:A simple question would be: would you kill your own son in that situation? Or would you try to bring him back no matter the cost?

If the Emperor was so much more powerful than his son he wouldn't of HAD to of killed him to subdue him.

Do you have to kill your five year old son to subdue him?

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:He let himself get injured

No, he did not let himself have his chest torn open, his jugular ripped out, his faced scalded until his eyeball popped, his arm ripped off, his wrist broken, or his spine split in two.

It is constantly emphasized it would require nothing less than the Emperor's full power to defeat Horus. If he was so much stronger than Horus, his full power would not be necessary.

A simple question would be: would you kill your own son in that situation? Or would you try to bring him back no matter the cost?

exactly my point, no one is saying that the big e is so superior that it is unreal, well im not im not, its like usain bolt and tyson gaye if they are both on form you know who is going to win

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:A simple question would be: would you kill your own son in that situation? Or would you try to bring him back no matter the cost?

If the Emperor was so much more powerful than his son he wouldn't of HAD to of killed him to subdue him.

Do you have to kill your five year old son to subdue him?

If he is possessed by 4 Lucifer's then YES.

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:A simple question would be: would you kill your own son in that situation? Or would you try to bring him back no matter the cost?

If the Emperor was so much more powerful than his son he wouldn't of HAD to of killed him to subdue him.

Do you have to kill your five year old son to subdue him?

If he is possessed by 4 Lucifer's then YES.

That's not his point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blood_Raven wrote:Let me put it in real world terms.

A dad who is a professional cage fighter and his son who he teaches get into a fight over something.

The dad doesn't want to use his full skill against his son because it could kill him. The son on the other hand really has no qualms with going all out and manages to break a few of his dads bones.

The dad finally so annoyed uses his full skill on the son and the son is ko'd in one punch.

But in you're analogy, the father is still more skilled, so should be able to defend himself if he's so much better.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:He let himself get injured

No, he did not let himself have his chest torn open, his jugular ripped out, his faced scalded until his eyeball popped, his arm ripped off, his wrist broken, or his spine split in two.

It is constantly emphasized it would require nothing less than the Emperor's full power to defeat Horus. If he was so much stronger than Horus, his full power would not be necessary.

A simple question would be: would you kill your own son in that situation? Or would you try to bring him back no matter the cost?

exactly my point, no one is saying that the big e is so superior that it is unreal, well im not im not, its like usain bolt and tyson gaye if they are both on form you know who is going to win

Most people are, though. While also arguing that even though the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Horus, he wasn't infinitely more powerful enough to block his attacks, physical nor psychic.

And could I just point out that according to the original fluff, the Emperor was the one who attacked physically first, and was fighting to kill. He had a subconscious block about using his full psychic might against his son, but it doesn't change the fact that the attack that killed Horus was a surprise strike, which was the only reason Horus didn't block it.

Durza wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:He let himself get injured

No, he did not let himself have his chest torn open, his jugular ripped out, his faced scalded until his eyeball popped, his arm ripped off, his wrist broken, or his spine split in two.

It is constantly emphasized it would require nothing less than the Emperor's full power to defeat Horus. If he was so much stronger than Horus, his full power would not be necessary.

A simple question would be: would you kill your own son in that situation? Or would you try to bring him back no matter the cost?

exactly my point, no one is saying that the big e is so superior that it is unreal, well im not im not, its like usain bolt and tyson gaye if they are both on form you know who is going to win

Most people are, though. While also arguing that even though the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Horus, he wasn't infinitely more powerful enough to block his attacks, physical nor psychic.

And could I just point out that according to the original fluff, the Emperor was the one who attacked physically first, and was fighting to kill. He had a subconscious block about using his full psychic might against his son, but it doesn't change the fact that the attack that killed Horus was a surprise strike, which was the only reason Horus didn't block it.

i,ve not read anywhere that the attack was a surpise attack where is your source