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Post by: Henners91
Hey guys,
This is NOT a Matt Ward hate-thread, though I am not overly keen on the guy myself, I don't want any pointless bandwagoning or bashing... merely an answer to this question.
I'm still relatively new to 40k so I'm not entirely school'd up on GW's Codex Authors, but I know for a fact there's more than one... So why is Matt Ward rumoured to be writing the Necrons' next 'dex as well as the Black Templars'? I mean the guy already has C:SM and BA and GK under his belt, what are GW's other authors doing? Why is Ward getting a 'Codex spree' so to speak?
Also, who wrote the SW 'dex? I bring that up because, off the top of my head, that and Codex: Dark Eldar are the only codieces he hasn't written of late? What are the authors that wrote those two doing now?
I guess that it's easy to see that my motives in asking this question are anti-Ward, but as I said before, I just want an honest answer, thanks.
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Post by: bombboy1252
I would prefer him to just do SM codexs.
He doesn't need to do Necrons or Tau
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Post by: akaean
I really have no idea why Ward is writing so many codex.
If memory serves:
Phil Kelly has written the current Eldar, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves codex
Robin Cruddace has written the Tyranid and Imperial Guard
They all seem pretty hit or miss. The Eldar and Dark Eldar codexes are both really good while the Wolf codex is a travesty.
Cruddace did a great job on the Guard but the Nid codex is considered by many to be extremely lacking.
Ward... obviously has written a few "gems".
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Post by: Henners91
Interesting that, as far as I know at least, the Wolves codex didn't result in petitions asking for the author to be fired...
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Post by: insaniak
Henners91 wrote:Interesting that, as far as I know at least, the Wolves codex didn't result in petitions asking for the author to be fired...
Pretty much every codex written since the start of the internet has resulted in petitions asking for the author to be fired. Lack of perspective is an awesome thing to behold at times.
The thing I find interesting is how ready people are to blame all of a codex's faults on the listed author. The codex is designed in the studio, so I would strongly suspect that the entire team has some feedback. The guy with the author credit is just the one who writes it all down.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
Phil Kelly also wrote the current Orks codex
As it stands most of the past Codex authors have either resigned, moved to freelance Black Library status, or moved into more Corporate roles within GW.
With this in mind, and without bringing in new talent GW has available for codex writing:
Matt Ward
Phil Kelly
Robin Cruddace
People they can pull from other divisions or fantasy.
As to why Ward has more than the others...I cannot even begin to speculate...Internal office politics, personal preference, etc.
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Post by: AustonT
I think in many ways Ward has become the next Gav Thorpe. I seem to remember a way back when, when Kelley and Ward were the main guys who did the playtests that showed up in WD, and granted my memory is commonly suspect. Back to the Thorpe thing, Gav was deeply involved in many of the 3e codexs across all races and the BRB. Ward and to a lesser degree Kelley may be replacing this role as they roll out codexes with some ridiculous pwnage with an eye towards writing 6e. That's my working theory, I can only hope that in the vein of Thorpe, Mcniel, and Hoare that this does not turn into him becoming a BL writer.
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Post by: -Loki-
akaean wrote:Cruddace did a great job on the Guard but the Nid codex is considered by many to be extremely lacking.
Heh? He did the same poor job on the Guard as he did on the Tyranids. There's plenty of useless or flat out bad choices in the Guard book, just like the Tyranid book, and the book makes one or two builds that are simply better to run from the book, just like the Tyranid book. The only difference is the Guard book fits right in with the mech heavy metagame while the Tyranid book doesn't, so its powerful builds are very powerful, and Cruddace threw so many options into the Guard book you get the illusion of not as much of the book sucking, while he cut most of the options out of the Tyranid book, so the bad choices are more keenly felt.
Cruddace is an all round bad codex writer.
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Post by: timetowaste85
-Loki- wrote:akaean wrote:Cruddace did a great job on the Guard but the Nid codex is considered by many to be extremely lacking.
Heh? He did the same poor job on the Guard as he did on the Tyranids. There's plenty of useless or flat out bad choices in the Guard book, just like the Tyranid book, and the book makes one or two builds that are simply better to run from the book, just like the Tyranid book. The only difference is the Guard book fits right in with the mech heavy metagame while the Tyranid book doesn't, so its powerful builds are very powerful, and Cruddace threw so many options into the Guard book you get the illusion of not as much of the book sucking, while he cut most of the options out of the Tyranid book, so the bad choices are more keenly felt.
Cruddace is an all round bad codex writer.
You may consider him a bad codex writer, but Cruddace did a great job with the Tomb Kings book for fantasy. It's perfectly balanced and the army performs well together. There is a lot of synergy in it. Then again, all of the 8th edition army books have been balanced (to each other). Well, except Beastmen, who were written with 8th in mind and suck hard. Written during 7th as an 8th ed army book. But yes, back to Cruddace-he did well by the dead, sandy guys.
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Post by: -Loki-
timetowaste85 wrote:-Loki- wrote:akaean wrote:Cruddace did a great job on the Guard but the Nid codex is considered by many to be extremely lacking.
Heh? He did the same poor job on the Guard as he did on the Tyranids. There's plenty of useless or flat out bad choices in the Guard book, just like the Tyranid book, and the book makes one or two builds that are simply better to run from the book, just like the Tyranid book. The only difference is the Guard book fits right in with the mech heavy metagame while the Tyranid book doesn't, so its powerful builds are very powerful, and Cruddace threw so many options into the Guard book you get the illusion of not as much of the book sucking, while he cut most of the options out of the Tyranid book, so the bad choices are more keenly felt.
Cruddace is an all round bad codex writer.
You may consider him a bad codex writer, but Cruddace did a great job with the Tomb Kings book for fantasy. It's perfectly balanced and the army performs well together. There is a lot of synergy in it. Then again, all of the 8th edition army books have been balanced (to each other). Well, except Beastmen, who were written with 8th in mind and suck hard. Written during 7th as an 8th ed army book. But yes, back to Cruddace-he did well by the dead, sandy guys.
As I said, he's a bad codex writer, and only gave examples of his codices, since this is the 40k forum. I've seen his Fantasy army books, and he seems to understand that system - I can even forgive Beastmen, since it's not easy writing a book in one edition but intending its use for a new edition when you have no idea how the metagame will shape. Those books tend to be too good or overly bad. However, they should keep him there where he produces better books. He doesn't seem to understand 40k, and should be kept away from it.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Sadly, a lot of people on here tend to mash codexes and army books together, so I thought I'd defend the one saving grace I've seen from him. I agree, his codexes leave much to be desired. If you could do multiwound shenanigans with warriors and carnifexes, or kept carnifex costs the same...the book would be okay by me. But he didn't. As for the IG...I really don't have beef, other than "oooo, look-it's a parking lot." Boring and easy to deal with.
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Post by: Omegus
akaean wrote:Cruddace did a great job on the Guard but the Nid codex is considered by many to be extremely lacking.
He did a terrible job on both. Both books are awful for internal balance, the IG book simply has so many options that you end up having more than enough to work with to make very effective lists. All of Cruddace's ideas range from wtfsuperpwnage to lulwhutincredibad.
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Post by: Movac
lol@IG players saying their codex is well done. If the new BT codex has that much cheap fire power and variation I'll love it regardless as well.
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Post by: Jackster
Cruddace's books tend to be like MTG sets, there are good stuff and there are bad ones. Personally I am fine with that.
Nids being bad and IG being good is more of a meta game thing.
Ward's more consistent within a book, but all the books he wrote are marines, it's not that hard to balance out marines with few differences. (And it's not like he never has useless units in his books, see Legion of the Dammed and BA Tacs) His meta balance is somewhat questionable consider the recent tourney results.
And if we are considering WHFB, Cruddace is certainly better than Ward, 7th ed DoC is a monstrosity that should have never existed, while 8th ed TK is a very well done book.
Either way, I am happy as long as we are not getting Gav Thorpe.
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Post by: Durza
As will I be if he's kept away from the new Chaos. I'll be more than happy if, say they get Ward to do the rules and maybe Abnett to write the fluff...
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Post by: Vaktathi
Get Aaron Dembeski-Bowden to write the next CSM books fluff and everything will be allright practically regardless of who writes the rules.
Well, not really, but close 
That said, I'm not super enthused about any of the current authors doing the CSM book. Cruddace has had rather awkward internal balance abilities (evident in both the IG and Tyranid books, though I think the greater issues with Tyranids are more related to time availability for development than anything else), Ward tends to create lists that feel like internet fandex's aimed at 12 year olds (fine for C: SM I guess if GW must have one of those, but not really for the Chaos Space Marines...), and given the way Space Wolves turned out I'd be afraid with Kelly doing it that either they'd turn out like SW's and become the new easymode bandwagon codex, or he'd overcompensate to try and avoid a repeat of that abomination of a codex and it ends up like the current Tyranid codex.
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Post by: Durza
I'd be wary of Cruddace. It seems it's rather hit or miss with him, so it's best to have a large number of units. Of course, with five potentially powerful Troops choices, this mightn't be a problem.
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Post by: TutorialBoss
Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago. It's like it was so bad we've repressed our memory of it.
I think the main reason Ward has authored more books than anyone else in 5th Ed. is that they've all been Space Marines and variants thereof. That's the easiest gig of any of the writers in 40k or fantasy.
I get the feeling Kelly prefers to challenge himself with more unique armies. As for Cruddace, I don't know what's up with him. I'm beginning to suspect he secretly hates 40k and wants to undermine it.
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Post by: Vaktathi
TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago. It's like it was so bad we've repressed our memory of it.
Probably because it's about what most expected of a WD dex, much like the get-you-by Warriors of Chaos list and the Blood Angels dex. Nobody was expecting an super great army list.
I think the main reason Ward has authored more books than anyone else in 5th Ed. is that they've all been Space Marines and variants thereof. That's the easiest gig of any of the writers in 40k or fantasy.
I get the feeling Kelly prefers to challenge himself with more unique armies. As for Cruddace, I don't know what's up with him. I'm beginning to suspect he secretly hates 40k and wants to undermine it.
Eh, that's probably taking it a bit far, it sounds like he's off on what he thinks stuff is worth.
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Post by: akaean
Ak, I didn't realize how negative people really felt about the guard codex!
truth be told I hadn't really taken a deep look at it, and other than thinking Vendettas were a tad rediculous had heard generally positive reviews from all the Guard players I knew.
Of the three I definitely like Phil Kelly's stuff the best. The new Dark Eldar codex is strong but still balanced, and both the Ork and Eldar codexes are holding up despite their growing age. I guess I can forgive space werewolves.
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Post by: Henners91
I like the Guard 'dex... but I'm not a competitive guy, I just run a big swarm of infantry. It's flavourful enough for me. Mind you, I started 40k with 5th, so I have no idea what they used to be like.
How about /tg/ writes all new codices? 
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Post by: Vaktathi
akaean wrote:Ak, I didn't realize how negative people really felt about the guard codex!
truth be told I hadn't really taken a deep look at it, and other than thinking Vendettas were a tad rediculous had heard generally positive reviews from all the Guard players I knew.
There's a lot of cool stuff, don't misunderstand, but there's also a lot of stinkers too, most of the Elites slot for instance, most leman russ variants (e.g. vanquisher, punisher, etc), the Basilisk, much of the FA slot units, most HQ options, many of the Veteran options, Platoon units/options, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, etc.
There's lots of good stuff, and lots of stuff in general, which makes up for the stinkers, but there are a lot of stinkers.
How about /tg/ writes all new codices?
No please
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Post by: htj
I agree, akaean, Kelly's my personal favourite.
I think we'd have a lot better codices if they were either all written by one person or all written by a group with the same members each time. Everyone's seems to be singing from a different hymnsheet at the moment.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
The biggest problem I see in the IG book is points. Some things like ogryns, and storm troopers are way over priced, and veterans are too cheep and the FA options totally blow. Though as a guard player I have happy over all with it.
I think Kelly has the most talent out 3.
One thing everyone here has over looked is Jeremy Vetock. He will be haveing a bigger presence over the next few codexes. So we will have some more diversity on the way, just be patiant.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:The biggest problem I see in the IG book is points. Some things like ogryns, and storm troopers are way over priced, and veterans are too cheep and the FA options totally blow.
Hrm, not necessarily always points. Stormtroopers for instance have gear that their statline just doesn't support the effective use of (though yes, are also drastically overcosted). Vets aren't particularly underpriced at all, and most of their options like Doctrines are awful, notice that nobody takes them without a transport and almost never with doctrines, they only become good when paired with a chimera or Valk/Vend. The oft-seen triple melta squad would never get much time if it didn't have a chimerabunker or speedy delivery system. They're not much different than they were last edition (traded infiltrate/ DS for scoring basically) and in fact many of their options are more expensive, it's just that their delivery methods became more effective.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
Vaktathi wrote:Mr. S Baldrick wrote:The biggest problem I see in the IG book is points. Some things like ogryns, and storm troopers are way over priced, and veterans are too cheep and the FA options totally blow.
Hrm, not necessarily always points. Stormtroopers for instance have gear that their statline just doesn't support the effective use of (though yes, are also drastically overcosted). Vets aren't particularly underpriced at all, and most of their options like Doctrines are awful, notice that nobody takes them without a transport and almost never with doctrines, they only become good when paired with a chimera or Valk/Vend. The oft-seen triple melta squad would never get much time if it didn't have a chimerabunker or speedy delivery system. They're not much different than they were last edition (traded infiltrate/ DS for scoring basically) and in fact many of their options are more expensive, it's just that their delivery methods became more effective.
I don’t know; ten guys with shotguns and carapace are a bargain for 100 points, compared to some other armies troop choices. I only say they are too cheap because they are so cheap you hardly ever see infantry platoons anymore. I agree that they should be troops, because in last edition they were elite and crap so nobody ever took them. However they should be a little more expensive or give infantry platoons something more to make them worth taking again. It does get boring to see all the guard mech melta spam lists, where nobody ever puts a troop model on the table.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
I don’t know; ten guys with shotguns and carapace are a bargain for 100 points, compared to some other armies troop choices.
hrm, 100pts for 10 S3 T3 I3 Ld7/8 4+ sv dudes with S3 Ap- 12" guns isn't exactly stellar by any means, most wouldn't consider that a great buy, you can have double the number of 5+ sv BS3 guardsmen that put inflict a greater number of average wounds and will stick around longer because there's twice as many of them. For 2pts more you get stuff like Dire Avengers and Sisters which are markedly superior for only a minor increase and still aren't seen as exceedingly great.
I only say they are too cheap because they are so cheap you hardly ever see infantry platoons anymore.
I run them routinely, I think the greater issue is that Vets are cheap in terms of $$$. A small sized infantry platoon is going to run probably $100, $200 if mechanized (probably roughly ~350-370pts), whereas 3 squads of mechvets (~475pts) help fill an armies points quicker for about the same amount of money.
It's also fewer models to build and paint. Makes creating the army easier and faster. I run mechanized platoons in almost all of my games and never really have an issue.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Cruddance's quality is all over the map, and the chance a codex will be better is directly related to how many units can be squeezed into the army list section.
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?
We really can't count the SM codex because Ward didn't write that by himself.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago.
Yeah, it's just shameful how they're cheaper marines with magic?
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Post by: Vaktathi
Grey Templar wrote:
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?
Culexus assassin, GK Techmarine
We really can't count the SM codex because Ward didn't write that by himself.
Who co-wrote it? IIRC he's listed as the sole author. He had enough autonomy that he changed the Land Raider transport capacity and got in trouble for it, but only post-release (hence why no others have the higher transport capacity).
DarknessEternal wrote:
Yeah, it's just shameful how they're cheaper marines with magic?
without the staying power, Ld rules, range of weapons and vehicles, CC ability, etc
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Post by: Jackster
TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago. It's like it was so bad we've repressed our memory of it.
Wasnt that written by both Cruddace and Ward?
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Post by: Grey Templar
Vaktathi wrote:Grey Templar wrote:
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?
Culexus assassin, GK Techmarine
The Culexus is just the worst option of the 4 Assassins, it is far from useless.
and the GK techmarine is VERY useful in a Henchmen army for toting Rad+psychotroke grenades, and possably and Orbital Strike Relay, around. Then he can be an extra force weapon in the unit.
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Post by: G00fySmiley
I'm a kelly fan, he writes well balances codexes. though ... after space wolves I hope to god they never let him write another MEQ codex.. unless they told him specifically " MEQ have to be overpowered" and so he went a little far under dirrection at the orders of GW to push some plasti (wouldn't surprise me) other than SW fluff he also does a good job imo of storylinines
as for ward... he's not that bad at game balance, i still think vanilla marines are par for the course on balance not to powerful btu not weak... but let somebody else write the fluff, and since kelly can't do MEQ fluff as evidant from SW... that leaves cruddance
speaking of cruddance... mindbogglingly good fluff I've read the nids dex cover to cover many times his descriptions are just that good. as for balance of codexes I think he suffers from opposite of MEQ syndrome he doens't want to make things overpowered and thus ends up having a few strong units but makign other things purposefully nerfed down where you wouldn't use them... I also think he should push for them to erata out force weapond instant killing Nids monstrous creatures... really hurts the dex vs greyknights... I even argue GK are more tailored against Nids than they are against Demons... but thats another topic completely
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex. At least in this edition you can’t have a wolf guard with terminator armour on bike with a jet pack shooting a cyclone missile launcher. I don’t find their builds nearly as bad as GK. Kelly is the best right now until we see what Vetock’s books look like. As a Dark Angles player I will be happy as long as they never let Jevis Johnson touch another codex again, what were they thinking, the old man has been out of the game for too long.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
insaniak wrote:Henners91 wrote:Interesting that, as far as I know at least, the Wolves codex didn't result in petitions asking for the author to be fired...
Pretty much every codex written since the start of the internet has resulted in petitions asking for the author to be fired. Lack of perspective is an awesome thing to behold at times. The thing I find interesting is how ready people are to blame all of a codex's faults on the listed author. The codex is designed in the studio, so I would strongly suspect that the entire team has some feedback. The guy with the author credit is just the one who writes it all down.
Matt Ward isn't real, he's a house name for a conspiracy of studio staff to bring down GW from the inside by writing crap. While destroying GW, they also give the gamers a hate object to distract from their further nefarious machinations. Mwah ha ha!
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex.
You forgot the most important parts! Grey Hunters being the hybrids of Tac Squads and CSM squads at a discount and with more options plus overgunned and underpriced Long Fangs.
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Post by: G00fySmiley
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex. At least in this edition you can’t have a wolf guard with terminator armour on bike with a jet pack shooting a cyclone missile launcher. I don’t find their builds nearly as bad as GK. Kelly is the best right now until we see what Vetock’s books look like. As a Dark Angles player I will be happy as long as they never let Jevis Johnson touch another codex again, what were they thinking, the old man has been out of the game for too long.
its just very imbalanced...
JoTWW is beyond overpowered, thier units are like normal marines but better... and for less points. its just to good, I'd be fine with everythign in thier codex (aside from jaws) if it only had a appropriate points cost.
I actually liek the grey knights codex, it is interesting, the units are different but at least you pay for the extra power vs SW where you actually get a discount
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
I don't think they are under priced when you think about the fact that the only way you get a squat leader is to pay for a wolf guard and attach him to the unit. Plus the only way to get heavy weapons is to take long fangs that can only have 5 guys in a squad, 6 if you take a wolf guard. So you give up a heavy support for them, and you can't have 10 guys like devistator squads. Gray Hunters are not really anything of a break they are still 15 pts a model and can have a free special weapon if they number 10, same price as regular marines or BA and they get a free heavy weapon and leader ship 9 because of the sgt, hunters are only LD 8. So really they are worse than regular marines or BA, same price, free weapon just like the others, but lower LD.
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Post by: ph34r
DarknessEternal wrote:TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago.
Yeah, it's just shameful how they're cheaper marines with magic?
Hahahahahahahaaha
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Post by: Grey Templar
G00fySmiley wrote:Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don’t know why people are so down on SW apart from the crazy rune priests and the Scooby Doo cavalry it’s not all that different from the old codex. At least in this edition you can’t have a wolf guard with terminator armour on bike with a jet pack shooting a cyclone missile launcher. I don’t find their builds nearly as bad as GK. Kelly is the best right now until we see what Vetock’s books look like. As a Dark Angles player I will be happy as long as they never let Jevis Johnson touch another codex again, what were they thinking, the old man has been out of the game for too long.
its just very imbalanced...
JoTWW is beyond overpowered, thier units are like normal marines but better... and for less points. its just to good, I'd be fine with everythign in thier codex (aside from jaws) if it only had a appropriate points cost.
I actually liek the grey knights codex, it is interesting, the units are different but at least you pay for the extra power vs SW where you actually get a discount
Jaws isn't so much overpowered as it is overpowered against specific things. Namely big expensive gribblies. Its just annoying to MEQs and IG really don't care because there is more where that came from.
Jaws could be fixed easily if it just did a wound with saves allowed. Ork Nobs could take this once before dying and Carnifexs would just laugh it off.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don't think they are under priced when you think about the fact that the only way you get a squat leader is to pay for a wolf guard and attach him to the unit.
The squad leader is significantly cheaper than C: SM sergeants and CSM Champions, and all his upgrade options are 5pts cheaper as well. A Pfist WG with a combi-weapon is 43pts, a CSM Asp Champ is 65pts with the same setup, likewise a C: SM Tac Sergeant. The GH's themselves are 15pts with ATSKNF, Acute Senses and the amazingly powerful Counterattack on top of the highly versatile BP/ CCW/Bolter combo. Tac marines don't get the Acute Senses or Counterattack or CCW, while CSM's don't get any of the special rules.
Plus the only way to get heavy weapons is to take long fangs that can only have 5 guys in a squad, 6 if you take a wolf guard.
They can get 6 guys (5 with heavy weapons +1 sergeant that lets them split fire), 7 with a WG. No other army can get 5 BS4 krak missiles for 140pts, much less that can split fire. BA's only get 4 for that many points and can't split fire, C: SM and C: CSM pay 150pts for 4 that can't split fire.
And lets not forget about Razorbacks (which SW's make better use of than most being much more effective in small squads than most other marine units), Predators, Dreads, Land Speeders, etc. they can get heavy weapons in every slot but HQ, although Rune Priests with Living Lightning probably should count.
So you give up a heavy support for them, and you can't have 10 guys like devistator squads.
Very few players take full 10 strong Dev squads, and when they do it's to approximate the split fire ability that LF's get base. the ability to min/max and get the maximum amount of firepower out of the fewest number of points is much more powerful in this game than the expendable wounds the 10 strong squad allows.
Gray Hunters are not really anything of a break they are still 15 pts a model and can have a free special weapon if they number 10, same price as regular marines
regular marines are 16ppm, don't get a CCW, don't hav acute senses or the *very* powerful Counterattack, and need to be 10 strong to take *any* special/heavy weapon, GH's can take a heavily discounted special weapon right off the bat.
or BA and they get a free heavy weapon and leader ship 9 because of the sgt hunters are only LD 8.
They become 9 with their heavily discounted sergeant
So really they are worse than regular marines or BA
How? I'm really not seeing it. Far and away better CC ability, identical short range firepower, more CC weapon options, all upgrade options at a discount, what's not like?
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.
The CSM squad gets to fire the 2nd melta more than once and has higher LD with a reroll but can be swept and perma-broken. The GH unit has Acute Senses, ATSKNF, Counterattack (making tactical decision making less of an issue and mistakes significantly less costly and making enemy assault noticeably less scary), for a 37pt discount, or almost 4ppm. The comparison to a BA or C: SM Tac squad is only more in favor of the GH's.
same price, free weapon just like the others, but lower LD.
The lower Ld is a non-issue, they can very cheaply and effectively get Ld9, and have ATSKNF to moderate it anyway, and it's not like Ld8 is *awful*.
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Post by: Henners91
A certain boss on a certain game seems able to say SPACE MARINE! DAT'S MINE! At every turn... you even communicate with him.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.
I just don't see too many people using them to that great of an effect my way, more people are interesed in loganwing or cheap blood claws, but things might be different in you neck of the woods. Its jus my opinion. It's not really right to compare them to CSM though, they should have to pay more points for things as they are tougher to get in the eye of terror, that part of the punnishment for being a traitor.
anyway back to topic
Kelly is best,
Ward a far second
Curddice way out in left field on his own,
Vetock untested... yet (look for little blue men in his future)
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
I just don't see too many people using them to that great of an effect my way, more people are interesed in loganwing or cheap blood claws,
Loganwing is one thing, but I don't think I'd be alone in saying that blood claws are not a unit that seems to heavily feature in most SW armies, especially given that the price difference with GH's is about 10-15pts after kit and are significantly less capable, as opposed to the nearly 40 between said CSM unit and the above GH unit.
Between 3 different metro areas in about a dozen events/stores over two years, BC's have been a rare sight. They're not bad, but the GH's are just so much better.
It's not really right to compare them to CSM though, they should have to pay more points for things as they are tougher to get in the eye of terror, that part of the punnishment for being a traitor.
Not sure if serious >_>
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Post by: G00fySmiley
fluff shuld have no bearing on points cost of units in the meta game
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
Loganwing is one thing, but I don't think I'd be alone in saying that blood claws are not a unit that seems to heavily feature in most SW armies, especially given that the price difference with GH's is about 10-15pts after kit and are significantly less capable, as opposed to the nearly 40 between said CSM unit and the above GH unit.
I'll give you that they are better than CSM, but compare them to GK strike squads, for a few more points per model every one gets power/force weapons and everyone is a psyker plus all the other benifits, now that is the real crime. 
It's not really right to compare them to CSM though, they should have to pay more points for things as they are tougher to get in the eye of terror, that part of the punnishment for being a traitor.
Not sure if serious >_>
oh yeah totally serious, if you make a pact with the devil you have to pay his price.
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Post by: Jackster
Grey Templar wrote:Cruddance's quality is all over the map, and the chance a codex will be better is directly related to how many units can be squeezed into the army list section.
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?
We really can't count the SM codex because Ward didn't write that by himself.
A lot of Henchmen options are pretty terrible. The cost on warrior acolyte weapons also dont make much sense. (Giving a Warrior Storm Shield cost more point than a whole Crusader...)
Also, the other three assassins hardly match up to the vindicare. (Who's pretty darn good against just about anything)
Purifier also seem undercosted compare to strike squads, as shown by everybody running Crowe to get them as troops.
But SW is probably the worst, I buy a special weapon and get another one free?
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Post by: andrewm9
DarknessEternal wrote:TutorialBoss wrote:Funny how no one's mentioned how Cruddace butt****ed the Sisters just a month or so ago.
Yeah, it's just shameful how they're cheaper marines with magic?
You're joking right? Sisters are more like marines light. The new Sisters codex is shameful. It doesn't even have its own niche that it excels at. Thier 'magic' isn't really that good. For 4 points less they get -1 WS, -1 S, -1 T, -1 I and are without ATSKNF. Their troop choice is really crappy. They don't even have impressive weapon options like a plasma cannon, missile launcher, or plasma gun in any slot. They have access to the heavy bolter, , melta, multi-melta, flamer, and heavy flamer. That is all. In close combat they die like Necrons. Close combat is to be expected to becuase of thier short range weapons. Their 'magic' as you put it is cut rate and only works during 50% of the game turn. Its not even as good as having Furious Charge.
If have missed some sarcasm there, I apologize.
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Post by: Hlaine Larkin mk2
Vathaki wrote:
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.
For the CSM squad its only 220pts
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Post by: ph34r
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Vathaki wrote:
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.
For the CSM squad its only 220pts
220 points without a rhino, sure.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
andrewm9 wrote:
You're joking right? Sisters are more like marines light.
So you agree, they're just cheap marines as they do everything marines actually do, but cheaper.
andrewm9 wrote: For 4 points less they get -1 WS, -1 S, -1 T, -1 I and are without ATSKNF.
The only thing that even matters there is Toughness. Their faith covers the leadership just fine.
andrewm9 wrote:They don't even have impressive weapon options like a plasma cannon, missile launcher, or plasma gun in any slot. They have access to the heavy bolter, , melta, multi-melta, flamer, and heavy flamer.
Please consult Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine, and Imperial Guard players on the number of times they would take any of those rather than juts take 2 melta guns in their Troops.
andrewm9 wrote:Close combat is to be expected to becuase of thier short range weapons.
Most armies have short range weapons and only marines and orks are any better at assault than SoB. Also, Battle Conclaves would like to disagree with your assessment since they are unequivocally the most cost effective assault unit in the game.
andrewm9 wrote:Their 'magic' as you put it is cut rate and only works during 50% of the game turn. Its not even as good as having Furious Charge.
Being able to rally at under half strength or within 6" of the enemy is far more useful than Furious Charge. As are relentless multi-meltas, and twin-linked meltaguns. Why would you even bring up Furious Charge? That isn't even something most units in the SoB army would even care to have.
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Post by: Omegus
Durza wrote:As will I be if he's kept away from the new Chaos. I'll be more than happy if, say they get Ward to do the rules and maybe Abnett to write the fluff...
Ironically, Ward's over-the-top-I-just-smoked-a-whole-bunch-of-crack style of writing would be more appropriate for Chaos than anyone else.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I don't think they are under priced when you think about the fact that the only way you get a squat leader is to pay for a wolf guard and attach him to the unit. Plus the only way to get heavy weapons is to take long fangs that can only have 5 guys in a squad, 6 if you take a wolf guard. So you give up a heavy support for them, and you can't have 10 guys like devistator squads. Gray Hunters are not really anything of a break they are still 15 pts a model and can have a free special weapon if they number 10, same price as regular marines or BA and they get a free heavy weapon and leader ship 9 because of the sgt, hunters are only LD 8. So really they are worse than regular marines or BA, same price, free weapon just like the others, but lower LD.
1. Not even IG can get such an effective gun/point ratio as Long Fangs, there is a reason most tournament lists start with three units of them.
2. The Wolf Guard is CHEAPER than a similarly-armed sgt.
3. Heavy weapons for tactical squads are crap.
4. Worse than regular marines? You are hopelessly deluded. I don't know who you are trying to fool, us or yourself.
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Post by: Vaktathi
DarknessEternal wrote:
The only thing that even matters there is Toughness. Their faith covers the leadership just fine.
Lower WS, S, Init and Ld doesn't matter? Also, there is no Act of Faith that does anything to Leadership at all AFAIK.
Please consult Space Wolf, Blood Angel, Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine, and Imperial Guard players on the number of times they would take any of those rather than juts take 2 melta guns in their Troops.
On just Troops squads perhaps yes. Sisters don't have access to any Las/ Plas/Missile/etc weaposn in *ANY* FoC slot.
Most armies have short range weapons and only marines and orks are any better at assault than SoB
Huh? There's DE, Daemons and Tyranids that would like to speak with you about that. Also Marines encompass about half of this games armies in case you hadn't noticed.
Also, Battle Conclaves would like to disagree with your assessment since they are unequivocally the most cost effective assault unit in the game.
Um, what? They're the same units that the GK Henchmen have, and they're certainly not seen as the most cost effective assault unit in the game. Sisters lists aren't exactly swarming with Battle Conclave units. Where on earth are you getting this from?
Being able to rally at under half strength or within 6" of the enemy is far more useful than Furious Charge.
 If you're under half strength, your combat effectiveness is typically gone, and being broken within 6" of an enemy is highly situational. Furious Charge is an incredibly powerful assault bonus. And what in the current Sisters list given them this Ld ability? I guess I could be missing something but I'm not seeing an act of faith or wargear item that allows that.
As are relentless multi-meltas, and twin-linked meltaguns.
Which are variable in ability to get off and only available to select units.
Why would you even bring up Furious Charge? That isn't even something most units in the SoB army would even care to have.
I'm fairly certain many sisters units would love to have that, such that they might actually get to strike before half the unit gets cut down and strike hard enough to inflict meaningful casualties.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Vaktathi wrote:Also, there is no Act of Faith that does anything to Leadership at all AFAIK.
Well I guess there's no point in continuing to argue with someone who hasn't even read the codex then.
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Post by: Vaktathi
DarknessEternal wrote:Vaktathi wrote:Also, there is no Act of Faith that does anything to Leadership at all AFAIK.
Well I guess there's no point in continuing to argue with someone who hasn't even read the codex then.
Found it, was buried under the basic Battle Sisters faith thing which is 808921988230918239 pages long, my mistake. That said, it's a highly variable ability available to a single unit, and the fact that that's the only thing you bothered responding to before declaring victory and marching out with those rather silly assertions you made doesn't make you look any more correct. Trying to argue that Sisters of Battle aren't markedly inferior to Space Marines is rather silly.
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Post by: Movac
I loved Graham Mcneill's work on the BT codex.
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Post by: Jayden63
ph34r wrote:Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Vathaki wrote:
A full 10 man CSM squad with 2 meltaguns, a powerfist champ, an Icon of Chaos glory to approximate ATSKNF is 255pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun and a Combimelta/PFist WG in a Rhino is 218pts.
For the CSM squad its only 220pts
220 points without a rhino, sure.
No one will ever change the mind of a SW hater. They keep going back to the C: CSM comparisons which EVERYONE acknowledges as a steaming pile of turd. Why should anything be balanced against that heap. It needs to be thrown away and forgotten.
They keep comparing it to C: SM which should be fair but neglect to actually push the blame onto Cruddence for the massively OTT crap of the guard codex. The SW (the next marine codex) had to run with the guard on even footing.
Its just a shame that GW is unwilling to FAQ update older codexs with new point costs. New dexs need to keep the flow going, just look at the OTT elements of BA and GK. Then there is also that (if the writing on the wall is to be believed) SW were fully designed with the new ideas for 6th ed. Suddenly you will find counter attack nerfed (which will effect next to no one except wolves) and just watch a few other "bennies" get changed.
Anyway - Kelly is my favorite author, Ward a distant last place. I really wish he wasn't getting as much publishing time. His codexs are pushing 40K into directions it just isn't meant to be.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Jayden63 wrote:
No one will ever change the mind of a SW hater.
There was nothing inaccurate about my comparison, both were done with identical equipment as possible and rhino's factored into cost.
They keep going back to the C:CSM comparisons which EVERYONE acknowledges as a steaming pile of turd. Why should anything be balanced against that heap. It needs to be thrown away and forgotten.
I agree it wasn't a great book, but nobody ever saw it as uncompetitive until Codex: Space Wolves came out. There are a host of other issues with the book, primarily related to losing huge numbers of units/models/wargear/abilities/look/feel/etc, but it was still seen as a relatively high tier army until C: SW was released. The basic CSM was seen for a while as one of the best Troops units in the game until Grey Hunters came out. When you've got almost identically equipped/stat'd troops that are far more capable for fewer points than any equivalent in other marine armies ( CSM's simply being the most identical in terms of wargear), there's an issue.
C: CSM is often used as a comparison with C: SW precisely because the basic troops are so similar, and because the basic CSM was already seen as one of the best troops units in the game up until the time of C: SW's release.
They keep comparing it to C:SM which should be fair but neglect to actually push the blame onto Cruddence for the massively OTT crap of the guard codex. The SW (the next marine codex) had to run with the guard on even footing.
What on earth does C: IG's issues have to do with C: SW? The SW book was finished in terms of development by the time the IG book was released leaving no room to adjust, and to imbalance one army because of any issues with the one immediately preceding it as opposed to the metagame as a whole is awful game design. It is difficult to believe that the SW book would have been any different had the IG book not come out.
Then there is also that (if the writing on the wall is to be believed) SW were fully designed with the new ideas for 6th ed.
Being released barely over a year after 5E came out? As the third book of the edition? that's somewhat difficult to believe, especially with the 5E change to Counterattack (again, primarily a SW ability) having been made so deliberately with 5E. To what writing on the wall are you referring to? (genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic or anything)
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Post by: SabrX
Please don't let Cruddace anywhere near the Tau codex his. He's done enough damage already with Sisters of Battle. I have mix feelings with Ward. I hate what he's done with the game balance, but at the same time love what he's done with Grey Knights and Blood Angels. Phil Kelly has consistently written codices that aren't too OP, but fits right in the tournament environment. It takes a skilled player to tap into Phil's codices whereas a novice could take the worst of BA or GK and come out on top.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
They just need to have Cruddace write the codex Fluff and Ward write the rules together instead of having them do their own thing.
Then no one would have a reason to bitch about any codex, since they would all be crazy awesome with great background. No more people ranting madly about Khornate Grey Knights or Blood Angels/Necrons Brofisting. We would still have new toys that would seem OP until everyone calms down (like when everyone was freaking out about DS Land raiders) And eventually with those two working together, Ward would learn how to write better fluff and Cruddace would learn how to write more balanced Rules.
Now TBH, I don't see a huge problem with any of the 5th edition Codi(whatever the plural is) Fluff or gameplay wise (Space Wolves I would have agreed with a few weeks ago, until someone said that whenever Space Wolves get updated, they are always crazy OP, so since they are always like that they get a pass). All of them seem fairly balanced with good Fluff, but that's just me.
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Post by: thehod
Kelly wrote the DE codex. Very well balanced and among one of the top Xenos books currently in 5th.
Ward introduced the stormshield.
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Post by: Ascalam
Mire correctly he turned it from being a 4+ inv in close combat only (against one opponent i think) to being a 3+ all the time on a unit with 2+ saves..
But somehow, because everyone plays marines, this isn't considered cheesy at all...
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Post by: Jayden63
Vaktathi wrote:Jayden63 wrote:
No one will ever change the mind of a SW hater.
There was nothing inaccurate about my comparison, both were done with identical equipment as possible and rhino's factored into cost.
They keep going back to the C:CSM comparisons which EVERYONE acknowledges as a steaming pile of turd. Why should anything be balanced against that heap. It needs to be thrown away and forgotten.
I agree it wasn't a great book, but nobody ever saw it as uncompetitive until Codex: Space Wolves came out. There are a host of other issues with the book, primarily related to losing huge numbers of units/models/wargear/abilities/look/feel/etc, but it was still seen as a relatively high tier army until C: SW was released. The basic CSM was seen for a while as one of the best Troops units in the game until Grey Hunters came out. When you've got almost identically equipped/stat'd troops that are far more capable for fewer points than any equivalent in other marine armies ( CSM's simply being the most identical in terms of wargear), there's an issue.
C: CSM is often used as a comparison with C: SW precisely because the basic troops are so similar, and because the basic CSM was already seen as one of the best troops units in the game up until the time of C: SW's release.
Thats the problem right there. 50 point rhinos. 40 point blastmasters. Spawn for how much? Variable powers on possessed. The codex just does everything wrong. C: CSM has only ever had 1 strong tournament level build. And yeah, its a doozy, but the book is hardly competitive for those who don't want to run dual lash, obliterator spam. The codex was designed with a totally new design philosophy that lasted for exactly 1 codex. Just look how quickly it was abandoned. It doesn't matter that the basic CSM has the closest loadout to the GH. If the codex came out today I can promise you that the basic CSM would be 14 points, 35 point rhinos, and possibly have some other special ability that would make it on even footing with the GH. Look what BA did to assault marines and the massive upgrade they got. But that is supposed to be one of the BAs strong points. Too bad little got revised on the BA Tac marine but he couldn't take it too far away from C: SM because they are supposed to be the same thing.
They keep comparing it to C: SM which should be fair but neglect to actually push the blame onto Cruddence for the massively OTT crap of the guard codex. The SW (the next marine codex) had to run with the guard on even footing. What on earth does C:IG's issues have to do with C:SW? The SW book was finished in terms of development by the time the IG book was released leaving no room to adjust, and to imbalance one army because of any issues with the one immediately preceding it as opposed to the metagame as a whole is awful game design. It is difficult to believe that the SW book would have been any different had the IG book not come out.
It has everything to do with it. As a whole, in a perfect gaming world, you want each army to be balanced with each other so that no player has a built in advantage (something it appears that GW has never even tried to do), but the Guard codex just crammed so much spam into it that it makes the C: SM look bad. Marines are the GW poster child and not just Ultras. All marines are their bread and butter. So yeah, I do believe that Kelly was told to put SW on a level equal to Guard when it became apparent just how OTT guard was. I also believe Cruddence was somewhat forced to tone Nids down as to not eclipse the most current marine codex (which would have been SW) he just wasn't allowed to make Nids into guard power levels. Now look at the power of the BA, on par with SW. But now we have a small dip in power with the DE because xenos are not allowed to win. Infact I'm amazed that DE is as strong and balanced as it is. Probably because they had a whole lot of new models to sell instead of just updated marine models again. Now that xenos is out of the way we bring the marine power back to IG, SW, BA levels with the GK. Does anyone else not see this a pattern?
So yes. I honestly believe that SW, BA, and GK wouldn't be what they are now if it wasn't for Cruddences OTT build up of the Guard codex. We all know GW game testing is atrocious, and the guard just has so many options its totally possible that the cheese was just missed. And even if SW was in the can as it were when guard was released, I can't help but think there were some last minute revisions (probably not playtested too well) to jack up the strength once the true terror of the Guard codex became exploited.
Then there is also that (if the writing on the wall is to be believed) SW were fully designed with the new ideas for 6th ed. Being released barely over a year after 5E came out? As the third book of the edition? that's somewhat difficult to believe, especially with the 5E change to Counterattack (again, primarily a SW ability) having been made so deliberately with 5E. To what writing on the wall are you referring to? (genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic or anything)
I'm just going by what the latest rumors for 6th ed and what developers have said about it. I can't tell you where the exact quote came from (probably some thread here on Dakka) but someone said that all codexs starting with SW were built with 6th edition in mind. Maybe GW knew when releasing 5th that the rule set was nothing more than a band-aid to try and address some issues in 4th and were abandoning it anyway. I'm not a GW insider and can only guess to their mindset. All I can say is that it is totally not what I'd be doing if I was top dog.
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Post by: candy.man
GW honestly needs some new blood for their codex writing as Kelly, Ward and Cruddace is not an adequate enough range. Kelly is the lesser of the 3 evils and the one I’d choose for a CSM codex. That being said, none of them are CSM players and thus probably wouldn’t be able to do them justice. Also I don’t care how popular/unpopular Matt Ward is, I don’t want him anywhere near a CSM codex, even if it is a MEQ force.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Jayden63 wrote:
Thats the problem right there. 50 point rhinos.
CSM's Rhino's are only 35pts. Dark Angels (came out 6 months earlier) started that.
40 point blastmasters. Spawn for how much? Variable powers on possessed. The codex just does everything wrong.
Not everything, the troops were (mostly) good, the termi's were decent, Raptors were pretty good during the tail end of 4th before the mech metagame/ LoS/consolidation changes made them redundant, etc. Variable powers on possessed in and of itself wasn't a bad thing, but rather just most of the abilities aren't very good and whatever they can do Termi's can do for roughly the same cost.
The book does a lot of things wrong yes, but it wasn't seen as a weak for a while after its release. The basic CSM was often seen as one of the best troops in the game alongside the Ork Boy for quite a while if you'll remember.
C:CSM has only ever had 1 strong tournament level build. And yeah, its a doozy, but the book is hardly competitive for those who don't want to run dual lash, obliterator spam.
That was simply the top tier tournament build, nobody ever saw general "undivided" lists as weak until C: SW came out, they routinely won events, perhaps not as much as the Lash build, but well enough. Go ahead and do a forum search for threads a little over two years ago and I don't think you'll find that I'm wrong.
The codex was designed with a totally new design philosophy that lasted for exactly 1 codex.
Four really, Dark Angels, CSM's, Orks and Daemons. Early 2007 through mid 2008.
Just look how quickly it was abandoned.
I wont' argue that, but again, not so mcuh on the competitive side as it was the flavor/feel for the most part until C: SW came out that it really started being felt.
It doesn't matter that the basic CSM has the closest loadout to the GH. If the codex came out today I can promise you that the basic CSM would be 14 points
hrm, dunno about that.
35 point rhinos
They already are.
and possibly have some other special ability that would make it on even footing with the GH.
Possibly, but I'd expect that more as a result of the result of C: SW than anything else.
Look what BA did to assault marines and the massive upgrade they got.
Made troops?
It has everything to do with it. As a whole, in a perfect gaming world, you want each army to be balanced with each other so that no player has a built in advantage (something it appears that GW has never even tried to do), but the Guard codex just crammed so much spam into it that it makes the C:SM look bad. Marines are the GW poster child and not just Ultras. All marines are their bread and butter. So yeah, I do believe that Kelly was told to put SW on a level equal to Guard when it became apparent just how OTT guard was.
Except that the SW book would have been pretty much finished by the time IG came out (books are finished writing 6 months in advance of release generally) and there certainly wouldn't have been enough time to gauge the metagame response.
I also believe Cruddence was somewhat forced to tone Nids down as to not eclipse the most current marine codex (which would have been SW) he just wasn't allowed to make Nids into guard power levels.
Hrm, doesn't really feel that way to me, it feels like it was hamfisted into the release schedule and rushed out the door to fill a gap and meet a marketing niche for Space Hulk before the BA release 4 months later.
Now look at the power of the BA, on par with SW.
Hrm, i don't think I'd say that. One will notice that SW's still routinely remain more popular at events and place higher typically. Personally I'd rather face BA's than SW's.
But now we have a small dip in power with the DE because xenos are not allowed to win.
I'd say it's more because they are (and always have been) exceedingly vulnerable to certain foes and exceedingly capable against others.
Infact I'm amazed that DE is as strong and balanced as it is. Probably because they had a whole lot of new models to sell instead of just updated marine models again. Now that xenos is out of the way we bring the marine power back to IG, SW, BA levels with the GK. Does anyone else not see this a pattern?
Not really in the same way, remember the Ork codex and how dominating that was for 2008?
So yes. I honestly believe that SW, BA, and GK wouldn't be what they are now if it wasn't for Cruddences OTT build up of the Guard codex.
BA and GK you might be able to make a case for, though i still doubt that'd be the real case, but SW's were simply too soon after the IG codex to really have been adjusted for it.
We all know GW game testing is atrocious, and the guard just has so many options its totally possible that the cheese was just missed.
I fail to see how considering most people figured out the power builds before the book was even released.
And even if SW was in the can as it were when guard was released, I can't help but think there were some last minute revisions (probably not playtested too well) to jack up the strength once the true terror of the Guard codex became exploited.
Again, I have a hard time believing this, also because most of what makes SW's so good isn't necessarily a foil to IG aside from Long Fangs being cheap which is a foil against *everything*. 16pt Tac marines or 15pt GH's with Counterattack won't make a huge different to IG, the basic tac marine is already more than killy enough that CC is already a foregone conclusion for instance.
I'm just going by what the latest rumors for 6th ed and what developers have said about it. I can't tell you where the exact quote came from (probably some thread here on Dakka) but someone said that all codexs starting with SW were built with 6th edition in mind. Maybe GW knew when releasing 5th that the rule set was nothing more than a band-aid to try and address some issues in 4th and were abandoning it anyway. I'm not a GW insider and can only guess to their mindset. All I can say is that it is totally not what I'd be doing if I was top dog.
Nobody would do what GW is doing, as a corporation they're pants-on-head slowed. This is the company that operated illegally under UK law having the CEO also be Chairman of the Board, who then *borrowed* money to pay dividends to shareholders, conviniently doubling his yearly income due to his large stake in the company (which is exactly why having the CEO be the Chairman is illegal under UK law...)
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Post by: Durza
I think the main problem with the last CSM codex was that it was written as Marines with a dash of Evil, rather than Evil with a dash of Marine. The powers of chaos and near immortality should give them an edge over normal marines, but it doesn't seem to.
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Post by: Molten Butter
Iur_tae_mont wrote:They just need to have Cruddace write the codex Fluff and Ward write the rules together instead of having them do their own thing.
Then no one would have a reason to bitch about any codex, since they would all be crazy awesome with great background. No more people ranting madly about Khornate Grey Knights or Blood Angels/Necrons Brofisting. We would still have new toys that would seem OP until everyone calms down (like when everyone was freaking out about DS Land raiders) And eventually with those two working together, Ward would learn how to write better fluff and Cruddace would learn how to write more balanced Rules.
I'm not a fan of Cruddace's fluff. The Tyranid Codex in particular has some stories that almost seem Ward-ian.
The Doom of Malanth'ai is dumb. The Eldar force hunting Tyranids didn't pay attention to a fething Zoanthrope because they thought it was relatively harmless; you know, the Tyranid unit that blows up tanks with its mind? And then the Eldar somehow missed this Tyranid playing in their Soulstones, one of the resources they must keep constant watch over? Said Zoanthrope is strong enough now to suck out the souls of an entire Craftworld, as if this wasn't getting silly enough.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
Durza wrote:I think the main problem with the last CSM codex was that it was written as Marines with a dash of Evil, rather than Evil with a dash of Marine. The powers of chaos and near immortality should give them an edge over normal marines, but it doesn't seem to.
I agree with that. there should be something to account for their age an XP, but I do think they should have to pay more points for equipment to represent their limited resources.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
thehod wrote:Kelly wrote the DE codex. Very well balanced and among one of the top Xenos books currently in 5th.
There's only 2 Xenos books in 5th.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Durza wrote:I think the main problem with the last CSM codex was that it was written as Marines with a dash of Evil, rather than Evil with a dash of Marine. The powers of chaos and near immortality should give them an edge over normal marines, but it doesn't seem to.
I agree with that. there should be something to account for their age an XP, but I do think they should have to pay more points for equipment to represent their limited resources.
The thing is, in many ways they don't have the limited resources many think they do. They took half the mechanicus with them, they are unbound by the Imperial mechanicus's heirarchy and dogma, they have access to the unpossible resources of the Warp and significant holdings of worlds and billions of slaves on said worlds.
That, and paying more points for gear just for fluff doesn't make for very good game balance, it just results in overcosted wargear.
DarknessEternal wrote:thehod wrote:Kelly wrote the DE codex. Very well balanced and among one of the top Xenos books currently in 5th.
There's only 2 Xenos books in 5th.
Technically 3, Daemons are really a 5E book, they were released only a few weeks before 5E and some of their rules literally didn't mean anything in 4E (e.g. Offensive vs Defensive grenades).
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Post by: Henners91
Daemons ain't xenos y'all.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?
Same guys that wrote Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Alessio Cavatore and Gavin Thorpe.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
Vaktathi wrote:Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?
Same guys that wrote Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Alessio Cavatore and Gavin Thorpe.
Well that sums up all of the problems right there. Don't let fantasy guys mess with 40k, screws the fans everytime.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Vaktathi wrote:Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?
Same guys that wrote Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Alessio Cavatore and Gavin Thorpe.
Well that sums up all of the problems right there. Don't let fantasy guys mess with 40k, screws the fans everytime.
Well, they weren't just Fantasy, they both did lots of stuff for both systems. Additionally, Ward started out in fantasy and wrote the two worst books for 7E, Orcs & Goblins which were probably the least capable 7E book and then Daemons which nearly killed the game in many areas and required 8E (which admittedly Ward also wrote) to bring down to levels that other armies could compete with.
I never liked Allesio's stuff. Gav had his moments, but Allessio was hired basically just because he was good at playing Warhammer, and a lot of his stuff basically just tried to simplify 40k into Chess with Citadel Miniatures. He wasn't a particularly good rules designer and listening to his podcast on the 5E rules really reinforced that.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
Vaktathi wrote:Well that sums up all of the problems right there. Don't let fantasy guys mess with 40k, screws the fans everytime.
Well, they weren't just Fantasy, they both did lots of stuff for both systems. Additionally, Ward started out in fantasy and wrote the two worst books for 7E, Orcs & Goblins which were probably the least capable 7E book and then Daemons which nearly killed the game in many areas and required 8E (which admittedly Ward also wrote) to bring down to levels that other armies could compete with.
Oh I agree, Thorpe and Calvator should have stayed in fantasy which was their strong point. Ward should have never have been allowed to touch anything besides LOTR, he ruined fantasy and is on the way of doing the samething to 40K. At least after Daemons he should have been banished to the black library where he could do no more harm.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Oh I agree, Thorpe and Calvator should have stayed in fantasy which was their strong point. Ward should have never have been allowed to touch anything besides LOTR, he ruined fantasy and is on the way of doing the samething to 40K. At least after Daemons he should have been banished to the black library where he could do no more harm.
How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?
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Post by: Vaktathi
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?
That would depend on what you define as "good". If all you're looking at is army strength, sure, he puts out "good" books, but aside from that...he's probably the most controversial writer GW's had.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Vaktathi wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?
That would depend on what you define as "good". If all you're looking at is army strength, sure, he puts out "good" books, but aside from that...he's probably the most controversial writer GW's had.
Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?
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Post by: Vaktathi
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?
Draigo for one, a lot of the GK background stuff, Ultramarines honor guard having more battle honors and whatnot than entire companies of other marines, etc. Then there's also the ridicuslous naming conventions in the BA book and making Mephiston on par with Greater daemons. He also got slapped for changing the Land Raider/Drop Pod capacities (hence why they didn't carry through for other armies since then).
His tweenish excerpt about the UM's in WD doesn't help
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Post by: kronk
Never forget!
Edit: thanks for the link. I was looking for that the other day.
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Post by: Molten Butter
Vaktathi wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is consistently putting out good Codices "ruining" 40k?
That would depend on what you define as "good". If all you're looking at is army strength, sure, he puts out "good" books, but aside from that...he's probably the most controversial writer GW's had.
From what I've heard and seen, Codex: Space Marines has well-received rules outside of the "special character=Chapter" thing. Blood Angels was also liked.
But that's the rules, not the fluff.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Vaktathi wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?
Draigo for one
The misunderstood guy epitomizing the futility of the Grey Knight's struggle against Chaos? Once you think about it and get past the internet rage he's one of the deepest fluff characters ever.
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Post by: Vaktathi
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The misunderstood guy epitomizing the futility of the Grey Knight's struggle against Chaos? Once you think about it and get past the internet rage he's one of the deepest fluff characters ever.
Sorta, perhaps if you interpret it that way. But just walking around making daemons your bitch within the Warp, destroying cities with a single blow, rampaging through a Chaos God's forests, carving a name into a Daemon Primarch's heart, etc, it breaks the suspension of disbelief when it does stuff not even the Primarch's or the Emperor did, that not even entire companies of hardened Grey Knights could accomplish.
The story could have had the same result with much less Derp and much more impact. As is, I don't think I've seen anyone have a favorable reaction to that story who's read it sitting around the gaming table or at the store. it's almost universally " wtf".
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
He also got slapped for changing the Land Raider/Drop Pod capacities (hence why they didn't carry through for other armies since then).
Why do people keep saying stuff like that, along with "he got in trouble for Warhammer Daemons". Just because stuff didn't carry over to another book doesn't mean he got "slapped", maybe he just didn't think about it, from his writing thinking is not a strong point. Nothing has happend to the guy because of his foul ups if anything GW has given him more freedom. I also have not read of any kind of reprimand being brought down on him.
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Post by: Durza
Maybe they should get someone to look over his stuff before they publish it then.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Jackster wrote:Grey Templar wrote:Cruddance's quality is all over the map, and the chance a codex will be better is directly related to how many units can be squeezed into the army list section.
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?
We really can't count the SM codex because Ward didn't write that by himself.
A lot of Henchmen options are pretty terrible. The cost on warrior acolyte weapons also dont make much sense. (Giving a Warrior Storm Shield cost more point than a whole Crusader...)
Also, the other three assassins hardly match up to the vindicare. (Who's pretty darn good against just about anything)
Purifier also seem undercosted compare to strike squads, as shown by everybody running Crowe to get them as troops.
But SW is probably the worst, I buy a special weapon and get another one free?
Some henchmen options are bad, but that is wargear not unit.
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Post by: Henners91
Vaktathi wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Apart from Necron brofisting and everyone wanting to be an Ultramarine, what's the bad fluff he's been creating then?
Draigo for one, a lot of the GK background stuff, Ultramarines honor guard having more battle honors and whatnot than entire companies of other marines, etc. Then there's also the ridicuslous naming conventions in the BA book and making Mephiston on par with Greater daemons. He also got slapped for changing the Land Raider/Drop Pod capacities (hence why they didn't carry through for other armies since then).
His tweenish excerpt about the UM's in WD doesn't help
Apparently he also retconned some battle Graham McNeill wrote about where the Ultramarines took massive losses? Automatically Appended Next Post: kronk wrote:
Never forget!
Edit: thanks for the link. I was looking for that the other day.
Oh God, I thought it was all fine until the spiritual liege part...
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Post by: Durza
Every marine except the mutants want to be Ultramarines? I'm sure the players of other chapters liked that one.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Why do people keep saying stuff like that, along with "he got in trouble for Warhammer Daemons". Just because stuff didn't carry over to another book doesn't mean he got "slapped", maybe he just didn't think about it, from his writing thinking is not a strong point. Nothing has happend to the guy because of his foul ups if anything GW has given him more freedom. I also have not read of any kind of reprimand being brought down on him.
No, he actually flat out stated at a Games Day he got his hand slapped (his words) for the Drop Pod/Land Raider transport capacity increase. Hence my words about that. It also shows how...unsupervised and individual a lot of these projects are.
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Post by: Jayden63
Vaktathi wrote:Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Why do people keep saying stuff like that, along with "he got in trouble for Warhammer Daemons". Just because stuff didn't carry over to another book doesn't mean he got "slapped", maybe he just didn't think about it, from his writing thinking is not a strong point. Nothing has happend to the guy because of his foul ups if anything GW has given him more freedom. I also have not read of any kind of reprimand being brought down on him.
No, he actually flat out stated at a Games Day he got his hand slapped (his words) for the Drop Pod/Land Raider transport capacity increase. Hence my words about that. It also shows how...unsupervised and individual a lot of these projects are.
Yup I read the same thing. Just don't remember where.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
No, he actually flat out stated at a Games Day he got his hand slapped (his words) for the Drop Pod/Land Raider transport capacity increase. Hence my words about that. It also shows how...unsupervised and individual a lot of these projects are.
It doesn't sound like much of a slap if he was able to casually talk about it at games day. Acctually I think that is one of the best things he did. In the other codexes it is stupid that a character with a full squad can't ride in a landriader or a drop pod, I give him props for that. The rest of his stuff kinda crap. Though I wouldn't say he was slapped in any type of a formal reprimand. More likely it was a "hay man did you mean to do that".
I can tell you from first had knowlege there is no oversight in the development department. The studio head tells the guys what books they are going to release. The guys do a pitch for their ideas for that book and then the studio heads pic the best pitch and that author gets to run with it. Its pretty much hands off from there.
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Post by: Jackster
Molten Butter wrote:Iur_tae_mont wrote:They just need to have Cruddace write the codex Fluff and Ward write the rules together instead of having them do their own thing.
Then no one would have a reason to bitch about any codex, since they would all be crazy awesome with great background. No more people ranting madly about Khornate Grey Knights or Blood Angels/Necrons Brofisting. We would still have new toys that would seem OP until everyone calms down (like when everyone was freaking out about DS Land raiders) And eventually with those two working together, Ward would learn how to write better fluff and Cruddace would learn how to write more balanced Rules.
I'm not a fan of Cruddace's fluff. The Tyranid Codex in particular has some stories that almost seem Ward-ian.
The Doom of Malanth'ai is dumb. The Eldar force hunting Tyranids didn't pay attention to a fething Zoanthrope because they thought it was relatively harmless; you know, the Tyranid unit that blows up tanks with its mind? And then the Eldar somehow missed this Tyranid playing in their Soulstones, one of the resources they must keep constant watch over? Said Zoanthrope is strong enough now to suck out the souls of an entire Craftworld, as if this wasn't getting silly enough.
What the Codex meant was that the Eldars did not forsee their doom to come from Doom, not that they ignored him. They tried to kill it, but it was way too powerfu because Eldars are particularly susceptible to soul consuming powers.
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Post by: Mr. S Baldrick
I hate it when my soul gets consumed.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Thanks, I'll save that link! Now I can spring it on everyone who misquotes Ward and says that every Space Marine Chapter, with no exceptions, wants to be like the Ultramarines. More internet hyperbole making stuff worse than it is.
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Post by: Vaktathi
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Thanks, I'll save that link! Now I can spring it on everyone who misquotes Ward and says that every Space Marine Chapter, with no exceptions, wants to be like the Ultramarines. More internet hyperbole making stuff worse than it is.
While true that not *all* do, it is a bit derpy that he wants to make it out like the overwhelmingly vast majority do.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
It doesn't sound like much of a slap if he was able to casually talk about it at games day. Acctually I think that is one of the best things he did. In the other codexes it is stupid that a character with a full squad can't ride in a landriader or a drop pod, I give him props for that. The rest of his stuff kinda crap. Though I wouldn't say he was slapped in any type of a formal reprimand. More likely it was a "hay man did you mean to do that".
From what it sounded like it was a 'that goes against the canon, it's not something we can easily retcon as it's been explicitely written too many times, we'll let this one stand, don't do it again". While I don't fault the action, it does show sorta what's going on.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Mr. S Baldrick wrote: Vaktathi wrote:Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Which one of the 3 stooges wrote Codex Chaos Daemons?
Same guys that wrote Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Alessio Cavatore and Gavin Thorpe.
Well that sums up all of the problems right there. Don't let fantasy guys mess with 40k, screws the fans everytime.
Nothing wrong with the Daemon codex. Sure, there aren't as many people playing daemons as there are with ANY other army, but that's because Daemons are the newest stand alone army out there. But the book is great. The only dilemma that I have with it is a SERIOUSLY expensive multi-melta-esque weapon for Tzeentch flamers/heralds/princes/ GDs. Oh, and Beasts of Nurgle. Would be worthwhile if they had a fixed number of attacks (3) and any number could be upgraded to wound on 2+. Those are my only gripes in the book. Everything else comes down to personal taste. It just plays differently from everything else, but that makes it harder for your opponents to plan against it (unless they tailor lists. The book though was SOLID until "Codex: Mat Ward hates 40k daemons because he didn't write them" came out (C: GK, for the idiots out there). Cavatore being a "problem" writing 40k daemons? Yeah...don't think so. Ask the people who play Daemons what they think of the book. It's my favorite 40k book out there. The fluff is fun, nothing in the book is OTT, and there is some great synergy. Allesio has also done great work with Mantic's rules, and has made a new game while still keeping the heart and soul of Warhammer.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Considering fluff previously had Drop Pods only holding five men(Terminator, Tacticals, whatever)--GW themselves did it.
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Post by: Molten Butter
Jackster wrote:Molten Butter wrote:Iur_tae_mont wrote:They just need to have Cruddace write the codex Fluff and Ward write the rules together instead of having them do their own thing.
Then no one would have a reason to bitch about any codex, since they would all be crazy awesome with great background. No more people ranting madly about Khornate Grey Knights or Blood Angels/Necrons Brofisting. We would still have new toys that would seem OP until everyone calms down (like when everyone was freaking out about DS Land raiders) And eventually with those two working together, Ward would learn how to write better fluff and Cruddace would learn how to write more balanced Rules.
I'm not a fan of Cruddace's fluff. The Tyranid Codex in particular has some stories that almost seem Ward-ian.
The Doom of Malanth'ai is dumb. The Eldar force hunting Tyranids didn't pay attention to a fething Zoanthrope because they thought it was relatively harmless; you know, the Tyranid unit that blows up tanks with its mind? And then the Eldar somehow missed this Tyranid playing in their Soulstones, one of the resources they must keep constant watch over? Said Zoanthrope is strong enough now to suck out the souls of an entire Craftworld, as if this wasn't getting silly enough.
What the Codex meant was that the Eldars did not forsee their doom to come from Doom, not that they ignored him. They tried to kill it, but it was way too powerfu because Eldars are particularly susceptible to soul consuming powers.
Okay, but that just raises more questions, like why they did not see a vampiric Zoanthrope as a huge threat initially.
One of the things I don't like about the fluff is that Eldar tend to be portrayed as cannon fodder, even though that goes against the entire point of their own fluff. How can the species still be alive when they're making idiotic decisions and losing entire Craftworlds to threats like a single Tyranid? I guess that's my problem. I don't like the Swarmlord either (For different reasons connected to Tyranids in general), but the Doom's main problem is that for it to succeed, the Eldar on that Craftworld had to act downright stupid.
Phil Kelly did an excellent job with the fluff in Codex: Dark Eldar of making the Dark Eldar's enemies seem competent while still having the bad guys steal the show. The Salamanders and their other Space Marines do a fine job, the Orks manage to steal the panacea before Aurelia Malys can obtain it, and even the Tau at least figure out that Urien was using them and were desperate in the first place.
I think that's why so many people dislike Kaldor Draigo. It's not that Draigo is super powerful, it's that his success makes his enemies look bad.
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Post by: Omegus
Vaktathi wrote:Well, they weren't just Fantasy, they both did lots of stuff for both systems. Additionally, Ward started out in fantasy and wrote the two worst books for 7E, Orcs & Goblins which were probably the least capable 7E book and then Daemons which nearly killed the game in many areas and required 8E (which admittedly Ward also wrote) to bring down to levels that other armies could compete with.
I never liked Allesio's stuff. Gav had his moments, but Allessio was hired basically just because he was good at playing Warhammer, and a lot of his stuff basically just tried to simplify 40k into Chess with Citadel Miniatures. He wasn't a particularly good rules designer and listening to his podcast on the 5E rules really reinforced that.
Lots of people get hired for that same reason. That's how that Tuomas Pirinen got his gig. His claim to fame was the tactica for Warhammer he wrote under the nom de plume of Longsword, which basically just told every army to take the Crown of Command in every list always. You can probably still find it on internet archives if you search for it. Thankfully, he didn't last too long.
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Post by: Jackster
Molten Butter wrote:
Okay, but that just raises more questions, like why they did not see a vampiric Zoanthrope as a huge threat initially.
One of the things I don't like about the fluff is that Eldar tend to be portrayed as cannon fodder, even though that goes against the entire point of their own fluff. How can the species still be alive when they're making idiotic decisions and losing entire Craftworlds to threats like a single Tyranid? I guess that's my problem. I don't like the Swarmlord either (For different reasons connected to Tyranids in general), but the Doom's main problem is that for it to succeed, the Eldar on that Craftworld had to act downright stupid.
Phil Kelly did an excellent job with the fluff in Codex: Dark Eldar of making the Dark Eldar's enemies seem competent while still having the bad guys steal the show. The Salamanders and their other Space Marines do a fine job, the Orks manage to steal the panacea before Aurelia Malys can obtain it, and even the Tau at least figure out that Urien was using them and were desperate in the first place.
I think that's why so many people dislike Kaldor Draigo. It's not that Draigo is super powerful, it's that his success makes his enemies look bad.
First off, Nids came from outside the galaxy, Eldar arent all familiar with them at that time.
Second, they had no reason to believe Doom was a bigger threat than Carnifex, Venomthropes or anything and the "Shadow in the Warp" effect is probably clouding their psychic senses.
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Post by: DeathReaper
As for the title of this thread, it is because Matt Ward has butter on his pants.
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Post by: Squigsquasher
Tyranids are not bad, they're just harder to use properly.
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Post by: Isengard
Vaktathi wrote:Grey Templar wrote:
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?
Culexus assassin, GK Techmarine
You are exactly right on the techmarine. Why did they remove the servitors from the GK techmarine, making it basically a points sink, I would like one but there is no way I can justify using up a slot for that!
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Isengard wrote:Vaktathi wrote:Grey Templar wrote:
Ward, at the very least, is consistant in his quality. Name one unit that is truly useless in the GK codex?
Culexus assassin, GK Techmarine
You are exactly right on the techmarine. Why did they remove the servitors from the GK techmarine, making it basically a points sink, I would like one but there is no way I can justify using up a slot for that!
Bashing a legitimately useful unit is kinda silly...
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Post by: Omegus
Techmarine is an IC, if I remember correctly, and can take grenades.
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Post by: Seaward
To answer the initial question:
Because his stuff sells. Hell, I hate Grey Knights and I'm strongly considering running a GK list. He's got fun crunch, no matter how atrocious his fluff is. Of course, "fun crunch" often translates to, "more powerful than the next guy," but hey, that sells plastic spacemens at absurd prices. If he's really doing BTs, there're going to be a lot more BT players all of a sudden in the not too distant future. Same as there are a lot more GK players now. Same as there were a lot more BA players.
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