This is mainly due to the fact of the mystery of the Chapter. They themselves do not know what chapter they got their geneseed from, and because of that they do not "worship" a primarch.
So, what do you guys think of the Blood Ravens?

I think Relic have pretty terrible writers.

My personal favorite chapter.
Gabriel Angelos is just EPIC character.

I like the fact that they "might" be a successor chapter of the original Thousand Sons and that the fact that their battle tactics are sort of unique that they make heavy use of librarians to make calculated strikes that and their armor looks kind of cool

Given how terrible a cliché 'loyalist descendants of the traitor legions' really is, Relic (and, throne preserve us, Goto) haven't done a bad job with them.

Of course it's not a patch on the subtle way Forge World have invited the reader to draw inferences about the origins of the Carcharodons (and maybe also the Minotaurs).

Not knowing any of the novels, nor the storyline of DoW II, I do really like what I do know about the Blood Ravens. I do not think the 'geneseed-from-a-traitor-legion' thing is too awful, although I do not think it adds too much, either.

Their colour scheme is quite awesome, too.

@EA: FW do? How?

Ive beaten both the DoW games and i never saw any mention of them being from the thousand sons. Where in the game did you all get this?

I think the mystery thing is pointless...
If it does turn out they are TS successors what are they gpnna do with it? Nothing that's what.
If they get found out they'll be exterminated, they already fight chaos so hunting them isn't especially different...
Kinda pointless.

I still like the mystery aspect.

Skal098 wrote:Ive beaten both the DoW games and i never saw any mention of them being from the thousand sons. Where in the game did you all get this?

The speculation that Blood Ravens are an offshoot of TS comes from some text in a HH novel or maybe short story(I forget which one). Just mentioning this, however, is bound to attract random opponents to the theory.

Prepare yourself.

Ronin-Sage wrote:

Skal098 wrote:Ive beaten both the DoW games and i never saw any mention of them being from the thousand sons. Where in the game did you all get this?

The speculation that Blood Ravens are an offshoot of TS comes from some text in a HH novel or maybe short story(I forget which one). Just mentioning this, however, is bound to attract random opponents to the theory.

Prepare yourself.

It's in a HH Audiobook.
There is also some mention in the DoW books but they have largely been refuted because they suck.

And riding on a horse Kanulwen will come to destroy this theory.

Blood ravens are cool but nowhere near my top 5 probably my top 15. but not my top 5.

Asherian Command wrote:And riding on a horse Kanulwen will come to destroy this theory.

Blood ravens are cool but nowhere near my top 5 probably my top 15. but not my top 5.

Lets just wait then

I heard about the ts succesor and the only way that it would be inderstandable is if they don't destroy loyalists from heretic chapters which I have heard nothing regarding if they do or don't.

I to am a fan of the mystery surrounding the chapter and also believe they may come from the thousand sons....but let's face it, relic and GW will probably never disclose their origin(which I doubt they even havent decided)

Blood ravens are my all time favorite chapter hands down. Their colors are epic, and I started 40k because of DoW 1

and

GABRIEL IS BOSS

bombboy1252 wrote:Blood ravens are my all time favorite chapter hands down. Their colors are epic, and I started 40k because of DoW 1

and

GABRIEL IS BOSS

Unless you finish one of the non-SM campaigns in DoW2: Retribution.

forruner_mercy wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:Blood ravens are my all time favorite chapter hands down. Their colors are epic, and I started 40k because of DoW 1

and

GABRIEL IS BOSS

Unless you finish one of the non-SM campaigns in DoW2: Retribution.

I just beat the SM campaign, Planned on doing CSM campaign next.

Still wont change the fact the gabriel is beast though

forruner_mercy wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:Blood ravens are my all time favorite chapter hands down. Their colors are epic, and I started 40k because of DoW 1

and

GABRIEL IS BOSS

Unless you finish one of the non-SM campaigns in DoW2: Retribution.

Supposedly it's canon that Gabriel lives and becomes the chapter master.

Kazerkinelite wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:Blood ravens are my all time favorite chapter hands down. Their colors are epic, and I started 40k because of DoW 1

and

GABRIEL IS BOSS

Unless you finish one of the non-SM campaigns in DoW2: Retribution.

Supposedly it's canon that Gabriel lives and becomes the chapter master.

which is awesome and finally they are lead by a non-pysker

I would just point out that for a chapter supposedly with a large number of psykers, you don't see very many of them in the DoW games.

I never understood some of the hate for the Blood Ravens. I mean, I get hating the Ultramarines, cause they really are kind of boring, but the Raven's aren't that bad.

Skal098 wrote:Ive beaten both the DoW games and i never saw any mention of them being from the thousand sons. Where in the game did you all get this?

It's implied in A Thousand Sons for one.

Some woman whose name I forget had a premonition, which was: "The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"

Not to mention the general similarities to the Thousand Sons legion, high number of powerful psykers, similar armour to the Corvidae, the whole "Knowledge is power, guard it well" thing.

LordofHats wrote:I would just point out that for a chapter supposedly with a large number of psykers, you don't see very many of them in the DoW games.

I never understood some of the hate for the Blood Ravens. I mean, I get hating the Ultramarines, cause they really are kind of boring, but the Raven's aren't that bad.

It's probably just for gameplay reasons, I mean you can't have all the marines shooting lightning bolts out of their hands.

I don't know why anyone would hate the blood ravens, their relics own chapter, and I think they have done a lot of cool things with them over the course of the games. Which I don't understand why they went with ultramarines in space marine. At least blood ravens were represented in that game though.

The blood ravens are pretty cool, my personal favorite are the Crimson Fists

Kazerkinelite wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I would just point out that for a chapter supposedly with a large number of psykers, you don't see very many of them in the DoW games.

I never understood some of the hate for the Blood Ravens. I mean, I get hating the Ultramarines, cause they really are kind of boring, but the Raven's aren't that bad.

It's probably just for gameplay reasons, I mean you can't have all the marines shooting lightning bolts out of their hands.

I don't know why anyone would hate the blood ravens, their relics own chapter, and I think they have done a lot of cool things with them over the course of the games. Which I don't understand why they went with ultramarines in space marine. At least blood ravens were represented in that game though.

Space marines campaign would have been cooler if you were a blood raven, and not an ultramarine

bombboy1252 wrote:

Kazerkinelite wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I would just point out that for a chapter supposedly with a large number of psykers, you don't see very many of them in the DoW games.

I never understood some of the hate for the Blood Ravens. I mean, I get hating the Ultramarines, cause they really are kind of boring, but the Raven's aren't that bad.

It's probably just for gameplay reasons, I mean you can't have all the marines shooting lightning bolts out of their hands.

I don't know why anyone would hate the blood ravens, their relics own chapter, and I think they have done a lot of cool things with them over the course of the games. Which I don't understand why they went with ultramarines in space marine. At least blood ravens were represented in that game though.

Space marines campaign would have been cooler if you were a blood raven, and not an ultramarine

How would it have made any difference whatsoever?

What i don't get it..so, the ships of the 1ksons retreat out of the system shortly before prospero gets destroyed on orders of magnus.
So, some might have survived...and then?!
"Hi there, we are the Blood ravens. Don't mind that there is no record of us or our ships (i guess they did it car-thief style and removed all the markings on every parts that could've been tracked back to the 1ksons"), just add us to the good guy list, mkayyyy?"
Or prolly more like "This is not the legion you are looking for *waves hand*"..

I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the BR and all fluff bits you get fed about them, but seriously..if you think about it, HOW does the rest of a legion who just got declared the enemy get on the good-guy list? Where does the geneseed come from and why does noone see the gene-similarities to the 1ksons?
And most of all: Why didn't they succumb to the flesh-turn? Magnus' deal ran out, and it's not like that only affected prospero (or so you'ld think when the deal is with a chaos-god ).

I mean, it would explain their "fleet based"-ness, but still..i think its a really weak start..

Possible Spoilers below;

iDevour wrote:What i don't get it..so, the ships of the 1ksons retreat out of the system shortly before prospero gets destroyed on orders of magnus.
So, some might have survived...and then?!
"Hi there, we are the Blood ravens. Don't mind that there is no record of us or our ships (i guess they did it car-thief style and removed all the markings on every parts that could've been tracked back to the 1ksons"), just add us to the good guy list, mkayyyy?"
Or prolly more like "This is not the legion you are looking for *waves hand*"..

I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the BR and all fluff bits you get fed about them, but seriously..if you think about it, HOW does the rest of a legion who just got declared the enemy get on the good-guy list? Where does the geneseed come from and why does noone see the gene-similarities to the 1ksons?
And most of all: Why didn't they succumb to the flesh-turn? Magnus' deal ran out, and it's not like that only affected prospero (or so you'ld think when the deal is with a chaos-god ).

I mean, it would explain their "fleet based"-ness, but still..i think its a really weak start..

do you even know how desperate the Imperium was right after the Heresy? they probably would have welcomed back Abbadon... and sent him as far away from Terra as possible.

gabrielhorus wrote:

iDevour wrote:What i don't get it..so, the ships of the 1ksons retreat out of the system shortly before prospero gets destroyed on orders of magnus.
So, some might have survived...and then?!
"Hi there, we are the Blood ravens. Don't mind that there is no record of us or our ships (i guess they did it car-thief style and removed all the markings on every parts that could've been tracked back to the 1ksons"), just add us to the good guy list, mkayyyy?"
Or prolly more like "This is not the legion you are looking for *waves hand*"..

I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the BR and all fluff bits you get fed about them, but seriously..if you think about it, HOW does the rest of a legion who just got declared the enemy get on the good-guy list? Where does the geneseed come from and why does noone see the gene-similarities to the 1ksons?
And most of all: Why didn't they succumb to the flesh-turn? Magnus' deal ran out, and it's not like that only affected prospero (or so you'ld think when the deal is with a chaos-god ).

I mean, it would explain their "fleet based"-ness, but still..i think its a really weak start..

do you even know how desperate the Imperium was right after the Heresy? they probably would have welcomed back Abbadon... and sent him as far away from Terra as possible.

Are you Trollin? I mean that's ridiculous.

blood reaper wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

iDevour wrote:What i don't get it..so, the ships of the 1ksons retreat out of the system shortly before prospero gets destroyed on orders of magnus.
So, some might have survived...and then?!
"Hi there, we are the Blood ravens. Don't mind that there is no record of us or our ships (i guess they did it car-thief style and removed all the markings on every parts that could've been tracked back to the 1ksons"), just add us to the good guy list, mkayyyy?"
Or prolly more like "This is not the legion you are looking for *waves hand*"..

I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the BR and all fluff bits you get fed about them, but seriously..if you think about it, HOW does the rest of a legion who just got declared the enemy get on the good-guy list? Where does the geneseed come from and why does noone see the gene-similarities to the 1ksons?
And most of all: Why didn't they succumb to the flesh-turn? Magnus' deal ran out, and it's not like that only affected prospero (or so you'ld think when the deal is with a chaos-god ).

I mean, it would explain their "fleet based"-ness, but still..i think its a really weak start..

do you even know how desperate the Imperium was right after the Heresy? they probably would have welcomed back Abbadon... and sent him as far away from Terra as possible.

Are you Trollin? I mean that's ridiculous.

Hope you don't mean me The only thing i do with trolls is slay them! (ask my gamemaster, i crit them dead is ridiculous..now hes sending giants against our group x.x)

No the guy saying Abbadon would have been welcomed back.

blood reaper wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:

iDevour wrote:What i don't get it..so, the ships of the 1ksons retreat out of the system shortly before prospero gets destroyed on orders of magnus.
So, some might have survived...and then?!
"Hi there, we are the Blood ravens. Don't mind that there is no record of us or our ships (i guess they did it car-thief style and removed all the markings on every parts that could've been tracked back to the 1ksons"), just add us to the good guy list, mkayyyy?"
Or prolly more like "This is not the legion you are looking for *waves hand*"..

I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the BR and all fluff bits you get fed about them, but seriously..if you think about it, HOW does the rest of a legion who just got declared the enemy get on the good-guy list? Where does the geneseed come from and why does noone see the gene-similarities to the 1ksons?
And most of all: Why didn't they succumb to the flesh-turn? Magnus' deal ran out, and it's not like that only affected prospero (or so you'ld think when the deal is with a chaos-god ).

I mean, it would explain their "fleet based"-ness, but still..i think its a really weak start..

do you even know how desperate the Imperium was right after the Heresy? they probably would have welcomed back Abbadon... and sent him as far away from Terra as possible.

Are you Trollin? I mean that's ridiculous.

It depends on how persuasive Abbadon is. They didn't know his full involvement until far later.

See the short story Rebirth from Age of Darkness especially the last paragraph.

The one surviving Thousand Son.

'Knowledge is Power'

The Dim Red light of the Magma fires catching on his shoulder guard exposing the raven head of his corvidae cult discipline.

Blood Raven.

I used to like em just fine. Then they started "Gifting" themselves gear from other chapters.



The codex astartes does not support this action.

-Prepares the successor chapter and PDF legions-

heresy4life wrote:See the short story Rebirth from Age of Darkness especially the last paragraph.

The one surviving Thousand Son.

'Knowledge is Power'

The Dim Red light of the Magma fires catching on his shoulder guard exposing the raven head of his corvidae cult discipline.

Blood Raven.

Which is a single Spacemarine and not an entire chapter ( in fact, one would have to wonder, from where would the 1kson get the geneseed as well as the political backing and equipment to create an entire chapter? Why hasn't the fleshchange claimed him or his "new" chapter? Why hasn't the Mechanicus ever noticed that the geneseed comes from a traitorlegion? ). Whatever might be the Bloodraven's origin, it is and will in all likelyhood remain unknown ( for which we can all be grateful cause BLUDDREHVENS ARE 1K SONS is nearly as trite as ALPHA LEGION ARE LOYALISTS, REALY! ).

In fact the smartest way to create a bridge between the 1k sons and the Bloodravens would be to make the later the inheritor's of the former's philosophy, just like the "modern" Xanthide faction within the Inquisition follows the example set by Inquisitor Xanthus millenia ago.

Davian Thule is a troll
Shas'o Kais "surrender! If not for you, then for the greater good"
Davian Thule "The Grater Good is comming at you from my bolter *trollvoice*"

I actually think it's humorous how vehemently some of you are arguing against the T-Son/B-Raven relationship when no-one questions the background/loyalty of chapters that basically have NOTHING supporting their origin.

I mean really, how hard would it have been for the surviving T-sons to hide out for any amount of time (while retrofitting their gear and repainting everything) and to reappear later as loyalist marines? (Post)Heresy was a time of utter turmoil.

The Imperium is so inefficient it's laughable. As is the faith/trust of SM fans.

The Space Sharks show up out of NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!! and everyone loves them and doesn't question anything about their loyalty! But EMPEROR FORBID some surviving loyalists from a traitor legion live on to found a new Chapter! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!

Get over yourselves. The T-sons/B-raven relationship is FAR from being the most unbelievable/unlikely storyline in 40k.

The Thousand Sons/Blood Raven Relationship-Speculation is actually one of the things that make the blood ravens very interesting to me. As well as the Alpha Legion possibly still being secretly loyal. It's one of those Twists that make the WH40K universe more interesting

Viersche wrote:The Thousand Sons/Blood Raven Relationship-Speculation is actually one of the things that make the blood ravens very interesting to me. As well as the Alpha Legion possibly still being secretly loyal. It's one of those Twists that make the WH40K universe more interesting

This. I'm also a fan of the idea that they weren't founded by the 1k sons in any way, but were part of a covert founding using tithed geneseed. Its a much cleaner explanation as to why they dont know who their primarch is.

The point i was trying to make from Rebirth, was that the HH Series has now dropped two blatant hints about the Blood Ravens/Thousand Sons link.

In Rebirth it hinted at many Thousand Sons Ships still out there and that there were more Marines aboard the ship that dropped the squad onto Prospero. Therefore plenty of Space marines to take geneseed from.

The Imperium (via Malcador) welcomed Luna Wolves, Word Eaters, Iron Warriors and Death Guard into service so why not Loyal Thousand Sons (since they never actually turned traitor). Malcador would have renamed the Legion and hidden their origin as due to Nikea the remaining Loyal legions would not have accepted any Thousand Sons loyal or not.

The Thousand Sons that remained on Prospero didnt use their talents as much as those that left, so they werent at risk from the curse. It was only when they unleashed their talents without enough practice during the sack of Prospero that they fell to the curse. So if the Ship based Marines were the same then they could have the curse under control.

I like the whole "maybe derived from the Thousand Sons geneseed".

SickSix wrote:The Space Sharks show up out of NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!! and everyone loves them and doesn't question anything about their loyalty! But EMPEROR FORBID some surviving loyalists from a traitor legion live on to found a new Chapter! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting example, given that they more than slightly resemble the Night Lords...

English Assassin wrote:

SickSix wrote:The Space Sharks show up out of NOWHERE!!!!!!!!!! and everyone loves them and doesn't question anything about their loyalty! But EMPEROR FORBID some surviving loyalists from a traitor legion live on to found a new Chapter! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting example, given that they more than slightly resemble the Night Lords...

Who? The Charcharodons?

Corvidae, latin root corvid = raven
Corvidae armor color? red

Big hints in HH novel, short story, and DoW novels.

Contstant mention of their weird librarian heavy command structure....

I mean really if you don't think they're 1k sons descendants your just being stubborn at this point lol.

I kinda like the idea of the Blood Ravens being descended fromt the Thousand Sons.

I think it's pretty stupid to ignore the massive hints we have been given over the years.

CorvidMP wrote:Corvidae, latin root corvid = raven
Corvidae armor color? red

Big hints in HH novel, short story, and DoW novels.

Contstant mention of their weird librarian heavy command structure....

I mean really if you don't think they're 1k sons descendants your just being stubborn at this point lol.

Or just skeptical of the idea since there's a whole bunch of things that don't add up.

iproxtaco wrote:

CorvidMP wrote:Corvidae, latin root corvid = raven
Corvidae armor color? red

Big hints in HH novel, short story, and DoW novels.

Contstant mention of their weird librarian heavy command structure....

I mean really if you don't think they're 1k sons descendants your just being stubborn at this point lol.

Or just skeptical of the idea since there's a whole bunch of things that don't add up.

But hey, this is 40K.

Several points of contention:
1) "Knowledge is Power, guard it well" was a common phrase used during the Great Crusade/Reunification Era. That's not really a "strong indicator" of one thing or another, and to cite it as some kind of definitive proof is silly.

2) The misconception that Thousand Sons weren't "declared traitors". They were. The Emperor okayed the Wolves going after them, but Horus seemingly 'altered' the orders from "Bring Magnus back to Terra to face punishment" to "Kill 'em all!".

3) The idea that the Blood Ravens are "psyker heavy" meaning that every single member of the Chapter can shoot lightning bolts out of his bum and fire from his eyes. They may have larger amounts of psykers, but not all will be up to "Librarian grade". The Blood Raven psykers were renowned for their ability to see the future, which they incorporated in their battle planning.

4) The idea that Malcador would take a large amount of individuals from a known, tainted(incurably tainted mind you) source. The examples of Garro, Loken, etc are individuals who fought their way out of their Legions when the Legions went traitor. They were rigorously screened, and what's more their Legions were not renowned for being subversive or actively lying to the Imperium at large.

Kanluwen wrote:Several points of contention:
1) "Knowledge is Power, guard it well" was a common phrase used during the Great Crusade/Reunification Era. That's not really a "strong indicator" of one thing or another, and to cite it as some kind of definitive proof is silly.

Xaphen of the Word Bearers uses it in First Heretic, just in case people wanted some proof.

2) The misconception that Thousand Sons weren't "declared traitors". They were. The Emperor okayed the Wolves going after them, but Horus seemingly 'altered' the orders from "Bring Magnus back to Terra to face punishment" to "Kill 'em all!".

Certainly. IIRC, at least one source has them fighting on Terra, summoning Daemons.

3) The idea that the Blood Ravens are "psyker heavy" meaning that every single member of the Chapter can shoot lightning bolts out of his bum and fire from his eyes. They may have larger amounts of psykers, but not all will be up to "Librarian grade". The Blood Raven psykers were renowned for their ability to see the future, which they incorporated in their battle planning.

Can be explained by the fact that it was their recruitment world that had a large concentration of psykers. The Thousand Sons geneseed is what caused their high numbers of psykers.

4) The idea that Malcador would take a large amount of individuals from a known, tainted(incurably tainted mind you) source. The examples of Garro, Loken, etc are individuals who fought their way out of their Legions when the Legions went traitor. They were rigorously screened, and what's more their Legions were not renowned for being subversive or actively lying to the Imperium at large.

Although the locations of Thousand Sons ships sent away from Prospero isn't known. Magnus told them to move to specific locations and their assault on Fenris included some ships. I'm guessing Magnus met them later.

purplefood wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Kazerkinelite wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I would just point out that for a chapter supposedly with a large number of psykers, you don't see very many of them in the DoW games.

I never understood some of the hate for the Blood Ravens. I mean, I get hating the Ultramarines, cause they really are kind of boring, but the Raven's aren't that bad.

It's probably just for gameplay reasons, I mean you can't have all the marines shooting lightning bolts out of their hands.

I don't know why anyone would hate the blood ravens, their relics own chapter, and I think they have done a lot of cool things with them over the course of the games. Which I don't understand why they went with ultramarines in space marine. At least blood ravens were represented in that game though.

Space marines campaign would have been cooler if you were a blood raven, and not an ultramarine

How would it have made any difference whatsoever?

for one, the Blood raven paint scheme is better IMO

secondly, I wouldn't have to hear "authorization astartes ultra" all the time

Third, relic would have been using their own chapter instead of the poster boy ultra marines

fourth, I just like the blood ravens

True, the Blood Ravens ARE like their own thing.
In multiplayer, I use Blood Ravens

As do I forruner_mercy

And now that I know what Libby's can do on the table top, I have much greater respect for them.

I used to like them mostly because of the color. I thought it was a nice shade of red. The mystery thing gets kind of old though.

Their color is very nice indeed

I agree the whole "mysterious uber secret of secret-dum" thing is kind of over played in 40k haha

English Assassin wrote:Given how terrible a cliché 'loyalist descendants of the traitor legions' really is, Relic (and, throne preserve us, Goto) haven't done a bad job with them.

Is this actually a cliche? How many loyalist descendants of traitor legions are there, exactly?

Ouze wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Given how terrible a cliché 'loyalist descendants of the traitor legions' really is, Relic (and, throne preserve us, Goto) haven't done a bad job with them.

Is this actually a cliche? How many loyalist descendants of traitor legions are there, exactly?

The Blood Ravens my not actually be descended from them. It is just implied. So as far as I know...none, with one implied.

There was Nathaniel Garro, who created the Inquisition, who was a loyalist Death Guard.

Anyway, I really hope the 6th ed SM book has DreadGabe as an SC!

Cerebrium wrote:There was Nathaniel Garro, who created the Inquisition, who was a loyalist Death Guard.

That's one loyal marine from a traitor chapter, were talking about a whole chapter starting from the geneseed from a traitor legion...

So true.

I think it is quite plausible, I mean descended form a chapter that worships Tzeentch? The Changer of Ways gets his hands on a chapter of psykers and so many of you think it's too far fetched for him to see what fun would happen if some run aways went loyalist? I bet he's having a right old giggle over it all.

Anyway, I much prefer this theory to the "Omfgz lolzzz da Blud Rayvins are one of the lost leejunns!!!!!!!11one" That really makes my blood boil when people spurt that little gem out.
"They don't know their Primarch and they look cool... Hmm, they must be a lost legion!" No, just no.

Descended from the Thousand Sons? Yes, I like that theory. Even if my take on whole story is wrong, Mars still have all the traitor gene seed in stasis don't they? Hints towards the Cursed Founding maybe?

In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding (probably)
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads (though NOT the whole chapter, contrary to some peoples views)
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked). This is stupid, but true.
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

bombboy1252 wrote:
fourth, I just like the blood ravens

Me to brother

Harrower wrote:In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding (right after the heresy)
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked).
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

Oh god, I better call Kanluwen.

Brother Coa wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
fourth, I just like the blood ravens

Me to brother

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iproxtaco wrote:

Harrower wrote:In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding (right after the heresy)
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked).
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

Oh god, I better call Kanluwen.

I think he's already on his way....he just....knows somehow...

iproxtaco wrote:

Harrower wrote:In my mind at least, there is no doubt that they are 1KSons descendants.

Ø Their armour is the exact colour of pre heresy TS.
Ø They stretch back to at least 2nd founding
Ø They have no records of who their primogenitor legion or primarch is, and Mars wont tell them
Ø They have a HUGE proportion of psykers, so much so that every company has psyker squads
Ø Their symbols is almosut exactly the same as that of the TS Corvidae cult
Ø Corvidae = Corvid = Latin for Raven family
Ø Under at least one of their chapter keeps, they have located pre-heresy era ruins, and power armour in blood Raven colours without insignia, but there were no BRs then (see 1st point)
Ø Their flagship has a chamber which projects what is basically a mini-astronomicon for their fleet, and is fed by psykers. It was invented by their founder apparently (remember magnus knew about the Golden Throne and how it worked).
Ø Ahriman calls them his “long lost cousins”. To their faces.
Ø The Harlequins also hinted at it.

There’s actually even more little bits, but I haven’t read the books in a while, and frankly they are terrible so I probably won't.

I* really like the Blood Ravens though, they have done a good job on them.

I stress, there is nothing conclusive, this is just MY solid opinion.

Oh god, I better call Kanluwen.

Why? Almost every single point in my post is 100%, unarguable, fact.
It PROVES nothing whatsoever, hence me stating that it is just my opinion, but it is fact nonetheless.

People can argue all they want whether they are or aren't 1kSons descendants, but there is plenty of very cicumstancial evidence, and some pretty damned good evidence would have to be found to change my opinion.

/shrug


In fact, I just read his earlier post, and agree with every point he made. It's not really got anything to do with my post....

Circumstantial evidence is just that:
circumstantial.

It can be considered "solid proof", but usually within a contextual framework. With the Blood Ravens, the context is about as muddied as it gets.

Why?
1) You've got C.S. Goto's "Dawn of War" novels which are responsible for a lot of the "hints" originally.
2) You've now got two other authors who've run with Goto's theory.

The part in italics alone is enough for me to throw that theory right out the daggone window.

Kanluwen wrote:Circumstantial evidence is just that:
circumstantial.

It can be considered "solid proof", but usually within a contextual framework. With the Blood Ravens, the context is about as muddied as it gets.

Why?
1) You've got C.S. Goto's "Dawn of War" novels which are responsible for a lot of the "hints" originally.
2) You've now got two other authors who've run with Goto's theory.

The part in italics alone is enough for me to throw that theory right out the daggone window.

There he is

Kanluwen wrote:Circumstantial evidence is just that:
circumstantial.

It can be considered "solid proof", but usually within a contextual framework. With the Blood Ravens, the context is about as muddied as it gets.

Why?
1) You've got C.S. Goto's "Dawn of War" novels which are responsible for a lot of the "hints" originally.
2) You've now got two other authors who've run with Goto's theory.

The part in italics alone is enough for me to throw that theory right out the daggone window.

Absolutely. Once again, I agree with everything you said.
It is all very circumstantial, and proves nothing at all, as I already said. Twice.

And in my opinion, they are desended from the Thousand Sons.

Are we even arguing? I'm sure we're saying the same thing, but with a different conclusion (which, both being opinions, again isn't really an argument).

We're having a civil discussion like gentlemen.

Fancy gentlemen with monocles, at that!


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As a sidenote: it looks like the link in my signature is no longer active. Gragh. Now I need to find another place for the Blood Ravens Index Astartes article or type it all up my dang self.

I always wanted a monocle, how spiffing!

Actually, I'll take the oppurtunity to say that discussions thus far on Dakka have been considerably more civilised than I was led to believe :p

Can i have a 'stache too? :3

Also: Damnit, but the more i read the forum the less i want to read the DoW novels.. xD

Do not ever read the Dawn of War novels.

Ever.

No, really don't. Seriously.
ESPECIALLY the first one.

I forced myself to read them all, because I try to read all the fluff, but goddamn....i've had root canal surgery less painful.

Why were they bad?

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

I don't know, I just keep hearing how bad they are and something about back flipping terminators...

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

Horribly written, absolutely no research on the background or anything else.
Some highlights (bearing in mind there are many more things, i haven't read them for years).

A Razorback transporting 10 terminators, then turning into a rhino, then back to a Razorback within 3 paragraphs.
A Dark Reaper that rides a Wave Serpent while shooting things, like a surfboard.
Terminators doing handsprings.
The Blood Raven flagship having a second astronomicon type beacon on it, which NOBODY HAS EVER NOTICED.

I honestly cant recall others, my brain has blanked it out. But there is so much more.

Harrower wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

Horribly written, absolutely no research on the background or anything else.
Some highlights (bearing in mind there are many more things, i haven't read them for years).

A Razorback transporting 10 terminators, then turning into a rhino, then back to a Razorback within 3 paragraphs.
A Dark Reaper that rides a Wave Serpent while shooting things, like a surfboard.
Terminators doing handsprings.
The Blood Raven flagship having a second astronomicon type beacon on it, which NOBODY HAS EVER NOTICED.

I honestly cant recall others, my brain has blanked it out. But there is so much more.

That...is just WTF stuff right there.
Seriously, do some research so you don't go putting TERMIES into RAZORBACKS.

Man..seriously, i hate it when someone just does whatever the feth they want, and then it's called "canon" because someone paid money for the license...yeeeey...grml..
I wish, i really wish, that there's someone at GW checking all the gak that gets released, just throwing stuff like that mentioned above into the fire, striking that authors from the BL list..forever -.-
(and also promote Matt "Because feth you, thats why" Ward to Matt "Lunchlady" Ward xD)

iDevour wrote:Man..seriously, i hate it when someone just does whatever the feth they want, and then it's called "canon" because someone paid money for the license...yeeeey...grml..
I wish, i really wish, that there's someone at GW checking all the gak that gets released, just throwing stuff like that mentioned above into the fire, striking that authors from the BL list..forever -.-
(and also promote Matt "Because feth you, thats why" Ward to Matt "Lunchlady" Ward xD)

Comparing Matt Ward to C.S. Goto is like comparing Shakespeare to Danielle Steel.

With Ward, he actually does write good fluff.
The concepts are sound and canonical. The execution, however, is not necessarily the best.

C.S. Goto just had no grasp of the concepts, the style, or anything relating to 40k beyond "Hurr Sphess Mahreenz".

Agreed with Kan. Ward's fluff is decent, just executed badly.

C.S. "Multilasers" Goto is total garbage. Same with Ian Watson.

bombboy1252 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:Why were they bad?

I don't know, I just keep hearing how bad they are and something about back flipping terminators...

C.S. Goto.....


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Kanluwen wrote:
With Ward, he actually does write good fluff.
The concepts are sound and canonical. The execution, however, is not necessarily the best.

This is actually true, Ward may have 2 - 3 bad fluff stories in 1 codex. But Goto have it in all book...

He is also not too bad at rules. Everyone is angry at how OP his stuff is, but Chaos or Nid players would rejoice if they found out he was making their Codex.

ph34r wrote:C.S. "Multilasers" Goto is total garbage.

Oh god, I forgot this! Multilasers on EVERYTHING. Marines, Eldar....it doesn't matter. NEEDS MOAR MULTILASERS!

And yes. Matt Ward, while I complain (loudly) about some of his stories (Draigo vs Primarch for example), and his desperate need for a thesaurus (seriously, just because they are Blood Angels, they DO still use other words), is literally a million lightyears ahead of C.S. Goto.

Which is a shame, as Cassern Sebastien Goto is an EPIC name.

ph34r wrote:Agreed with Kan. Ward's fluff is decent, just executed badly.

C.S. "Multilasers" Goto is total garbage. Same with Ian Watson.

How dare you ph34r! Are you being serious? Ian Watson's stuff might be viewed as 'garbage' these days in terms of it's adherence to background, but remember a lot of it was written for an earlier incarnation of 40k where the galaxy was nothing like as padded out as it is now. He was actually responsible for introducing a fair few different things as well, and I think wrote an account of the creation of a Space Marine (in the book of the same name) that I think is still an un-matched description of the process, and largely still stands up today (with the exception of the chaos squats ). And certainly you can't compare his writing ability to Goto (or many of the other BL writers for that matter).

Regarding the OP, Aaron Dembski Bowden wrote an article about this subject some time ago. He said that a writer should never have given so many hints about something like this - short of the character finding a book saying 'Yes the Blood Ravens are descended from Thousand Son genestock' and having it co-signed by all of the high lords of Terra, the Emperor and all primarchs, it could not have been laid out in a more obvious manner. He thought that the writing should have been far more subtle, leaving the reader to pick up clues only after some more serious thought about it, and even then for their to be an element of doubt.

Hm. More mystery would have been nice.

As it stands, the "mystery" of the Blood Ravens is how the hell it can be considered a mystery when they beat you upside the head with their mysterious mystery of engima.

Yeah, I guess that is fairly true.

forruner_mercy wrote:He is also not too bad at rules. Everyone is angry at how OP his stuff is, but Chaos or Nid players would rejoice if they found out he was making their Codex.

The Plasma Syphon was sloppy enough for me to not want him to put pen to paper ever again. Not an issue with the balance or usability of the item itself, just that he used Plasma as though it were an actual rule/type of weapon like Lance or Melta.

Sloppy.

daveNYC wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:He is also not too bad at rules. Everyone is angry at how OP his stuff is, but Chaos or Nid players would rejoice if they found out he was making their Codex.

The Plasma Syphon was sloppy enough for me to not want him to put pen to paper ever again. Not an issue with the balance or usability of the item itself, just that he used Plasma as though it were an actual rule/type of weapon like Lance or Melta.

Sloppy.

Honestly...I am confused. I do not know what you are talking about

Blood Ravens are nice but certainly not my most favourite chapter. I prefer Ultramarines (activating shield generators against incoming haters). DoW games were excellent and I really like the story line. Space Marine game is awesome, but if there would have been Blood Ravens or Blood Angels (damn blood suckers ), in place of Ultramarines then it would have been less amazing.

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Blood Ravens are nice but certainly not my most favourite chapter. I prefer Ultramarines (activating shield generators against incoming haters). DoW games were excellent and I really like the story line. Space Marine game is awesome, but if there would have been Blood Ravens or Blood Angels (damn blood suckers ), in place of Ultramarines then it would have been less amazing.

Don't worry, I, at least, am not a hater. The UM are actually one of my favorite chapters.

My list goes like this:
1) Salamanders
2) Imperial Fists
3) Blood Ravens and Ultramarines tie here
4) Um...never thought out this far

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Blood Ravens are nice but certainly not my most favourite chapter. I prefer Ultramarines (activating shield generators against incoming haters). DoW games were excellent and I really like the story line. Space Marine game is awesome, but if there would have been Blood Ravens or Blood Angels (damn blood suckers ), in place of Ultramarines then it would have been less amazing.

HERESY!

but back on topic...

I need to go find these Goto books so I can read 'em and see what the fuss is about......

Did he really make terminators doing back flips? or is this just exaggerating it?

I sure hope not.

forruner_mercy wrote:I sure hope not.

Me too...

But from what people have been saying...I'm in for some lolz...

bombboy1252 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:I sure hope not.

Me too...

But from what people have been saying...I'm in for some lolz...

If the majority of those people have actually read the book...then yes, I would say you are in for soem lolz

I'm so getting those books, they sound hilarious. lol

If possible, try to read the original, separately published novels. The Omnibus was VERY heavily re-edited, and had whole tracts re-written to be a bit less terrible.

I actually read the Omnibus first, and while pretty crap, didnt think it deserved quite as much hate as it got.

But then I read my mates novel....

No back-flipping Terminators in the Omnibus?

@harrower- thanks for that i'll look for them books then

Ouze wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Given how terrible a cliché 'loyalist descendants of the traitor legions' really is, Relic (and, throne preserve us, Goto) haven't done a bad job with them.

Is this actually a cliche? How many loyalist descendants of traitor legions are there, exactly?

Sorry, what I meant was that loyalist Thousand Sons/World Eaters/etc are an abominably over-used cliché in fan-written material - I'm exceedingly glad that Games Workshop themselves have never gone further than hinting at the possibility.

They are?

forruner_mercy wrote:They are?

In fan-fic

Yes, yes they are.

Why would that be?

It's a "SYUUUPER KYOOL" idea

you know, like female Space Marines, or corrupt Grey Knights.

They always think their being so original when they say their doing it.........

I can see why someone would do a loyalist World Eaters Chapter. It gives them a reason to have pretty much Angry Marines. But it does not make much sense. At least with the 1K Sons there is some stuff to back it up.

forruner_mercy wrote:I can see why someone would do a loyalist World Eaters Chapter. It gives them a reason to have pretty much Angry Marines. But it does not make much sense. At least with the 1K Sons there is some stuff to back it up.

Seeing how far the mortifactors strayed from the "Ultramarines Codex Path" you can make your angry marines with whatever you prefer as your founding "source"

forruner_mercy wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:He is also not too bad at rules. Everyone is angry at how OP his stuff is, but Chaos or Nid players would rejoice if they found out he was making their Codex.

The Plasma Syphon was sloppy enough for me to not want him to put pen to paper ever again. Not an issue with the balance or usability of the item itself, just that he used Plasma as though it were an actual rule/type of weapon like Lance or Melta.

Sloppy.

Honestly...I am confused. I do not know what you are talking about

Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon: roughly, it messes with the BS of any model using a plasma weapon. Now the sloppy bit is that in the rules there are no plasma weapons. You have special rules like Melta, Lance, Gets Hot, Poisoned, etc. Those are special rules, listed under the weapon, and they have a quantifiable impact on the game. Plasma on the other hand, is fluff. From a rules standpoint, there is no difference between any different guns with range X, strength Y and AP Z (assuming no other rules). If one gun is described as firing hypersonic slugs, another fires rabid pit bulls, and the last fires bolts of plasma, rules wise there is no difference, they all play the same.

The rules for the plasma syphon specifically said plasma weapons, which is not a rule, just a fluffy description of the weapon, which means that not only would you have to read the flavor text to know if the weapon was impacted by the device, but that any future weapons introduced could be impacted based on what the descriptor text says. And descriptor text isn't supposed to be used for rule adjudication. What would you do for a weapon that says "This weapon burns through armor like it's nothing, and unlike the plasma weapons of the Imperium, won't melt your hand off."? The text implies that the weapon is plasma based, but it doesn't say so. Maybe it works on pure awesomeness, and the comparison to Imperial plasma weaponry was good flavor to flesh out the army and weapon.

Which is why I consider the Plasma Syphon rules to be sloppy.

And if anyone want's an army with traitor legion geneseed, that's what the Dark Founding is for. Or you could just say the Alpha Legion did it (because, why not?).

That is pretty sloppy.

Why is their Ward hate in this here blood ravens thread?

Because opinions on the internet backed by humorous metaphors spread like a fire in a used wooden furniture store.

iproxtaco wrote:Because opinions on the internet backed by humorous metaphors spread like a fire in a used wooden furniture store.

thumbs up for the analogy...

Anyhow...Ward isn't that bad of a writer/rule giver...people just love to bitch and moan.....

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Because opinions on the internet backed by humorous metaphors spread like a fire in a used wooden furniture store.

thumbs up for the analogy...

Anyhow...Ward isn't that bad of a writer/rule giver...people just love to bitch and moan.....

True dat!

Well, time to get back on topic...

What was the "Canon" ending of soulstorm? I know the Blood ravens got their bums handed to them, but who "Won"?

IIRC it was the Imperial Guard...

purplefood wrote:IIRC it was the Imperial Guard...

Imperial guard?

HERESY!!!!

There is no known source to give Soulstorm a canon ending, all we know is the Marines lost.

Kinda like the 'Nid ending in Retribution.