Okay at first I had a good read a view days ago: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly

Then I had a slightly confusing read today when I searched for the article above again and Googles Top result was this: http://philosopherlikes.tumblr.com/post/10144672827/powered-by-hate-warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most

Well I know the author of the second articel is wrong what considers the Dawn of War games. But the claims he does before that the Space Marines look down to the IG as cowards. I have not read the novels just some codices and have not followed the 40k fluff to sharply for the past 3 years. So my question is: "What is the apperent status quo between Adeptus Astartes and IG?"

The author is not just wrong, He's blind. And surely no philosopher...

The Astartes have to look down on Guard when they stand in front of each other.
And thats the "common" part of looking down. Everything else depends on the marine and guards(wo)men in question.

Symbio Joe wrote: So my question is: "What is the apperent status quo between Adeptus Astartes and IG?"

Depends entirely on the chapter in question.

The Black Templars in Helsreach, for example, are depicted as disdainful of all Guard units save the one Imperial Navy squadron that had worked with the Templars on a previous crusade, and been granted the honor of painting Templar crosses on their Lightnings and Thunderbolts.

In the same novel, the Salamanders interface quite well with the Imperial Guard.

The Raven Guard are widely depicted as a chapter that will move in to help IG units when they can.

The Flesh Tearers are loathed by a lot of IG regiments they've fought alongside.

Just depends on the chapter.

Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Salamanders, and Ultramarines are generally depicted as honoring Guard and treating them as equals by the fact that they sacrifice their blood for the Imperium just like Marines do.

In many ways, some marines admire the Guard because they are not Space Marines, they're merely human, yet they're expected to fight the very same enemies the Space Marines fight.

Others... not so much. Flesh Tearers for example likely see Guard as getting in the way, as they willingly rip through a Guard position to get to Orks. Still others, such as Avitus from DoW2, view guard as cowards.

Melissia wrote:
Others... not so much. Flesh Tearers for example likely see Guard as getting in the way, as they willingly rip through a Guard position to get to Orks. Still others, such as Avitus from DoW2, view guard as cowards.

That's Red Thirst/Black Rage's doing, though. Current fluff has Seth keeping the Flesh Tearers away from other Imperial units on the battlefield specifically to avoid that sort of unpleasantness.

Doesn't stop most people from thinking the Flesh Tearers need to be put down, though.

Symbio Joe wrote:Okay at first I had a good read a view days ago: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly

Then I had a slightly confusing read today when I searched for the article above again and Googles Top result was this: http://philosopherlikes.tumblr.com/post/10144672827/powered-by-hate-warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most

Well I know the author of the second articel is wrong what considers the Dawn of War games. But the claims he does before that the Space Marines look down to the IG as cowards. I have not read the novels just some codices and have not followed the 40k fluff to sharply for the past 3 years. So my question is: "What is the apperent status quo between Adeptus Astartes and IG?"

First article is all right, it rocked hard.
Second one is written by someone who knows about 40k like me knowing about the meaning of life.

Guard main power is it's numbers and ARMOR. And not all Guardsman are cannon fodder and cowards, especially not Cadians.

It depends on the chapter. Some chapters like the Black Templars only recognize/respect IG once they've proven themselves while fighting alongside said chapter in combat

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

The feud between the Marines Malevolent and the Salamanders kinda sums up the variety of Astartes relationship with regular people.

Seaward wrote:Depends entirely on the chapter in question. [...] In the same novel, the Salamanders interface quite well with the Imperial Guard.

And of course it also depends on the individual author of the particular novel.

There is "Know Thine Enemy" where the Salamanders do not treat the Imperial Guard platoon they are reinforcing very kindly at all, one of the Marines almost killing their commanding officer for daring to suggest that the Marines take a rest whilst his men stand watch and, in general, voicing quite a few nasty remarks about what they think about the martial prowess of the Guardsmen.

As with all licensed products, every author will quite simply have his personal interpretation on the details of the 40k 'verse. So, how to deal with such conflicts? Simple, get your own personal interpretation. Read up on the Chapter history and culture in the official studio material (Codices etc) and then determine what kind of behavior would suit them best.

Just finished reading and, wow, the second one made me angry. It is definitely written by some one who just googled 40k and read a line from the wiki page.

"Their motto is something similar to “hold the line and die standing”, the commissars of the imperial guard frequently execute their own soldiers to keep order, and the entire IG is characterized by treachery, incompetence, and cowardice. Their strength is in their numbers, and that’s about it. You know those throwaway soldiers you see in every movie, like the stormtroopers from the original Star Wars or ‘terrorists’ in Diehard? Yeah, that’s the Imperial Guard. They are used as fodder in the plot line of all Dawn of War games. It’s repeatedly made clear in the series that many Space Marines have a severe distaste for the cowardly guardsmen, and look down upon them for their weakness and frailty."

First of all, "hold the line and die standing" is a reference to the bravery of the Guard to stand against the enemies of the Imperium and never faulter.
Second, I wounder if the author was aware that the Guard played a MASSIVE role in DoW:WA, escorting the Marines at one point!
Third, a great many commissars are like that, but not all. Men like Cain and Gaunt have found inspiring the troops a better method, and Cain is even teaching this lesson to his students. Lord Castallen Ursarkar Creed is noted as disliking sacrificing troops if alternatives can be found.
Fourth, universal disdain for the Guard from Marines is a lie. The Salamanders and Space Wolves are noted for being very friendly to Guard units.

Listen not to the lies of this heretic, men of the Imperial Guard, he has turned from the God-Emperor and is jealous of the bravery and determination that the servants of Him-on-Terra posses.

Ciaphas Cain is very explicit that he considers every guardsman besides himself, if not exactly cannon fodder, then a "screening unit", as us tabletop players would say.

In "The Fall of Damnos", the Ultramarines' Second Company don't think too much of the guardsmen at the beginning of the book, and the all of the Marines in the "Fear the Alien" stories are pretty dismissive of guardsmen.

I face-palmed at the second post.

In many ways, some marines admire the Guard because they are not Space Marines, they're merely human, yet they're expected to fight the very same enemies the Space Marines fight.

Very much this. In some 40K publication or another, there is a Space Marine squad leader of some Chapter or another, I forget the source I read this so I forget the Chapter, who expresses his surprise at the tenacity and bravery of the Guard unit he and his squad have encountered. The Guard commander replies something along the lines of being flattered, but what the Guard does is of no comparison to what the Space Marines do.

The SM replies, "You are but mortal men, and faced the xeno in battle, and emerged victorious. I am a Space Marine... I do not know how to fail."

In directly-published GW has the Space Marines looking down on the IG much more then in BL novels which tend to develop characters/relationships and thus require more then the "lol fodder" standard.

Overall I think most Space Marines don't care about the Guard or what happens to them, but if they fight side by side well in a major battle this changes. Unless of course you're Flesh Eaters in which case you just have a tasty snack.

Melissia wrote:Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Salamanders, and Ultramarines are generally depicted as honoring Guard and treating them as equals by the fact that they sacrifice their blood for the Imperium just like Marines do.

In many ways, some marines admire the Guard because they are not Space Marines, they're merely human, yet they're expected to fight the very same enemies the Space Marines fight.

Others... not so much. Flesh Tearers for example likely see Guard as getting in the way, as they willingly rip through a Guard position to get to Orks. Still others, such as Avitus from DoW2, view guard as cowards.

Also, there are some chapters with mixed opinions.

In Rynn's world, it was made fairly clear that one of the marines (forget name) hated ALL non-super humans, while others went so far as to play to the crowd.

Harriticus wrote:In directly-published GW has the Space Marines looking down on the IG much more then in BL novels which tend to develop characters/relationships and thus require more then the "lol fodder" standard.

Indeed. It is perhaps of note that the aforementioned "Know Thine Enemy" was written by Gav Thorpe - former lead background designer at GW.

I think a lot of novels are "warping" the perception of the major factions quite a bit, be it because the author attempts to make the protagonists more likable (in the case of Marines by making them more "human-like" in their psyche) or because he just doesn't know any better. Ironically, from an interview with Goto we know that his controversial portrayal of the Marines is indeed intentional, whereas the Cain books just hint at a lot of misinformation on part of the author.

wrong threaddddd

I'd say that Marines don't care much about guardsmen. I mean they probably respect them for fighting the enemies of the imperium but they probably don't give them much thought unless they are fighting side by side.

There is no perfect answer. Some Chapters, or individuals, look down upon mortal Guardsmen as weaker, frail or cowardly.

Others are in awe of the bravery and skill of the Guard, in facing up to xenos, heretic and even daemonic threats despite their fear.

And equally, the warriors and pilots of the Mechanicus armies look down upon many who aren't augmented servants of the Omnissiah, Guard regiments may describe one another as inferior... and everyone rags on the PDFs.

Grimdark, baby.

Mira was 'meh' to me, just another two-dimensional badly acted character. And her orders were always cliché and uninspired

And I think saying that she wasn't overly-sexualised is a tad generous: Space Marines don't like women Though I was happy that she didn't suffer from boob armour.

If you want to impress me, give us a female character with a shaved head...

Henners91 wrote:Mira was 'meh' to me, just another two-dimensional badly acted character. And her orders were always cliché and uninspired

And I think saying that she wasn't overly-sexualised is a tad generous: Space Marines don't like women Though I was happy that she didn't suffer from boob armour.

If you want to impress me, give us a female character with a shaved head...

Mira is probably the best thing in Space Marine ( beside Thunder Hammer ), the fact that she is a good commander ( saved the men under her command ), that she is not coward ( she go to the trenches several times to fight off aliens and heretics ), that she is bad-ass ( going into a battle with Chaos Marines + Orks with only Lasgun... ) and in the end she tell Titus to tell the Inquisition to "feth off" is just pure epic to me ( even her face toward the Inquisition was already saying "feth off" to them.

Probably the best character in the whole game.

Here is a real review of her: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly

That article was above, it's what made me post this

The voice actor was just so bland. The character was cool enough in concept but I felt the game, along with most of the chars (Titus possibly excluded, besides his underwhelmingly quiet fury roars) lacked character. Thus Mira saying 'hold your positions' in some monotone wasn't really awe-inspiring to me. The atmosphere never pulled me in.

Have you ever served, with female troops or officers? People but in this case especially females have a lot of facets to them. Mira has seen her world devastated by an Ork invasion, her chain of command removed and whats left of the shattered guard units looking to her for strength of will and direction. She does pretty well considering the situation and I think she is portrayed in context authentically.

As the the comments about how Space Marines don't like women, that is somewhat absurd as there are a few examples we can cite i.e. Ragnar Blackmane. I think a lot of this has its roots in dehumanizing assumptions about the Astartes and their oft monastic / militarist lifestyles. That and considering where this IP came from we can apply the old axiom "No sex please, we are British."

As has been stated above a lot of relationships are point of view based and on experience. If the IG have failed near you one tends to treat the next IG unit you meet with as suspect. If the IG had their act together and ran a well run defense or attack then there you are. Space Marines as elite units of the IoM are of course going to have that air about them, Emperor's Angels of Death and all that, but many are still courteous and commraderous where others behave like snobs and bullies.

It's always "cowardice" this and "martial prowess" that until the big guns have their say.

I think the overall space marne view is that the imperial guard is only human. They frown upon human cowardice, but know that, unlike marines, they still have fear.

Molten Butter wrote:

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

Lynata wrote:

Harriticus wrote:In directly-published GW has the Space Marines looking down on the IG much more then in BL novels which tend to develop characters/relationships and thus require more then the "lol fodder" standard.

Indeed. It is perhaps of note that the aforementioned "Know Thine Enemy" was written by Gav Thorpe - former lead background designer at GW.

I think a lot of novels are "warping" the perception of the major factions quite a bit, be it because the author attempts to make the protagonists more likable (in the case of Marines by making them more "human-like" in their psyche) or because he just doesn't know any better. Ironically, from an interview with Goto we know that his controversial portrayal of the Marines is indeed intentional, whereas the Cain books just hint at a lot of misinformation on part of the author.

Exactly. We, being human, would logically have trouble writing from the perspective of individuals who's psyche is supposed to be far removed from our own. (see: Post-human God )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:It's always "cowardice" this and "martial prowess" that until the big guns have their say.

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zakiriel wrote: Mira has seen her world devastated by an Ork invasion

Not HER world. She was a Cadian.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

thenoobbomb wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

What did I say wrong?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Not HER world. She was a Cadian.

I hear Cadia is nice this time of year.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

The guard generally doesn't go anywhere without the Navy to get them there however, and the SM's ships are extremely limited in number, usually limited to a single ship on most missions and often isn't in much position to provide direct fire support.

Boarding torpedoes have to get close and avoid interception

Molten Butter wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

]http://www.darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/images/stories/HeresyStamp.png

What did I say wrong?

Nothing.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

The guard generally doesn't go anywhere without the Navy to get them there however, and the SM's ships are extremely limited in number, usually limited to a single ship on most missions and often isn't in much position to provide direct fire support.

Boarding torpedoes have to get close and avoid interception

Yes, but the Navy AREN'T the Guard.

And a company needs 1 strike cruiser, which is far less than what an equivalent amount of Guardsmen would need.

And it doesn't matter with the torpedoes. Once they land, the ship belongs to the astartes. Not only can it be counted out of the fight, it may very well have been captured.

And what do you mean "isn't in position for fire support"?

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

The guard generally doesn't go anywhere without the Navy to get them there however, and the SM's ships are extremely limited in number, usually limited to a single ship on most missions and often isn't in much position to provide direct fire support.

Boarding torpedoes have to get close and avoid interception

The SM Chapter Master's "Orbital Bombardment" ability would seem to disagree with what you say. As would every fluff depiction of Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers as being exceptionally well-armed.

They might have orbital bombardment, but SM fleets are far inferior tu Imperial Navy ones. They are fast and hard hitting but weak except the Battle Barge.

Have you ever played Gothic ? I assure you that SMs are just a secondary force and not the mainstay.

KOS wrote:They might have orbital bombardment, but SM fleets are far inferior tu Imperial Navy ones. They are fast and hard hitting but weak except the Battle Barge.

Have you ever played Gothic ? I assure you that SMs are just a secondary force and not the mainstay.

Is Gothic a game about providing orbital fire support to planetary assaulters? If not, I'm not sure how it's relevant. Everything in the Space Marines' arsenal is tailored to help them do their jobs; to suggest they don't have the assets to conduct orbital bombardment prior to landing is a little wonky.

Conducting fleet battles isn't their job - though Helbrecht might say otherwise - and while the Imperial Navy certainly dwarfs any given Astartes' fleet, that's a weird comparison to make.

As already said, the IG is viewed as either an cowardice army or as an loyal fighting force of the Emperor. It really depends about the chapter in question. I play Ultramarines and what I've heard, they respect the IG and gladly help them if need arises. And as for the IG navy vs SM conversation, SM battlebarges are said to be equipped with more powerful weaponry than most of the IG battleships, but are dwarfed by the sheer amount of battleships available to the IG. The space marines use their ships to make surgical strikes, not to go in an all-out war.

Seaward wrote:

KOS wrote:They might have orbital bombardment, but SM fleets are far inferior tu Imperial Navy ones. They are fast and hard hitting but weak except the Battle Barge.

Have you ever played Gothic ? I assure you that SMs are just a secondary force and not the mainstay.

Is Gothic a game about providing orbital fire support to planetary assaulters? If not, I'm not sure how it's relevant. Everything in the Space Marines' arsenal is tailored to help them do their jobs; to suggest they don't have the assets to conduct orbital bombardment prior to landing is a little wonky.

Conducting fleet battles isn't their job - though Helbrecht might say otherwise - and while the Imperial Navy certainly dwarfs any given Astartes' fleet, that's a weird comparison to make.

From the Space Marine codex, page 45.

"Space Marine Battle Barges are primarily configured for close support of planetary landings. A considerable amount of hull space is given over to launch bays for intra system craft, boarding torpedoes, and drop pods. Even so, most battle barges can bring an obscene amount of fire-power to bear. Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy"

OBSCENE amount of fire-power?

I would say you lost that one mate.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but the Navy AREN'T the Guard.

Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

And a company needs 1 strike cruiser, which is far less than what an equivalent amount of Guardsmen would need.

Which would likely mean a greater number of IN ships with more guns to provide orbital fire support yes? That was kinda my point. A Strike Cruiser generally won't win a battle with an IN cruiser. In BFG terms, an Imperial Navy cruiser has 33% more hit points than an Astartes Strike cruiser and more guns.

And it doesn't matter with the torpedoes. Once they land, the ship belongs to the astartes. Not only can it be counted out of the fight, it may very well have been captured.

Not really, first they have to land, which they often don't, they can be intercepted by fighters and point defense systems, they typically aren't utilized until such defenses have been neutralized, which is much harder to do for an SM ship against an IN ship than vice versa. Then the ships still have all sorts of means of defending themselves, they can vent sections to space and blow the marines out of the ship, plus their own complements of marines, which, while not Space Marines, aren't useless. Boarding actions by SM's are by no means assured that the ship is immediately out of the fight. An IN cruiser is 5Km long, it's huge, it takes a ton of time for SM's to traverse through that against thosuands of crewmembers and armed marines that it could be very long minutes or even hours before they reach anything of importance, if they can at all. Hence why boarding torpedoes in BFG aren't an auto-win, they just inflict a certain level of damage.

Also, given the marines typically limited numbers, do they have enough for space battles and boaring large IN sized vessels *and* planetary ops?

And what do you mean "isn't in position for fire support"?

Unless it's in relatively low orbit (and thus vulnerable to anti-orbital defenses) in an orbit that places it relatively above the target, then it can't provide support. Given that we're usually talking a single Strike Cruiser, unless it's the only thing in orbit and there's no defenses, it's likely got other things to do.

Seaward wrote:The SM Chapter Master's "Orbital Bombardment" ability would seem to disagree with what you say.

As would every fluff depiction of Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers as being exceptionally well-armed.

They're very well armed for close orbit bombardment, but then aren't always in a postion to provide that either. In game 40k isn't a super accurate representation of lots of stuff, a Chapter Master isn't always going to have access to orbital fire support on every battlefield just because he's there for instance.

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

While yes, for some reason orbital bombardment sometimes has a Lance profile (IIRC they may have only been the old Daemonhunters book), SM ships are not armed with Lances aside from a rare handful of small escorts that the IN and the INQ try to limit them access to.

Is Gothic a game about providing orbital fire support to planetary assaulters?

Some scenarios do cover that yes.

to suggest they don't have the assets to conduct orbital bombardment prior to landing is a little wonky.

Nobody is saying they don't. Only that orbital support isn't always an option, especially past the opening phases, and that the IN has bigger ships and even bigger guns.

Even so, most battle barges can bring an obscene amount of fire-power to bear. Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy"

And this illustrates perfectly what I'm driving at. it's *almost* as much firepower as a Grand Cruiser, which means, not quite as much, and Grand Cruisers aren't the largest ships in the Imperial Navy.

Vaktathi wrote:Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

Yes there is. Saying that the Imperial Guard have bigger guns than the Astartes was the original comment. Someone else posted about Astartes starships to refute that point. Bringing in a third organisation (the Imperial Navy) completely changes the topic. The Astartes have bigger guns than the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Navy is irrelevant.

Also, Battlefleet Gothic rules don't necessarily dictate the background. Astartes had to get involved in the Badab War for a reason.

Vaktathi wrote:They're very well armed for close orbit bombardment, but then aren't always in a postion to provide that either. In game 40k isn't a super accurate representation of lots of stuff,

But Battlefleet Gothic is?

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

Every fluff example we have of SM ships completely contradicts this point, just for the record.

Seaward wrote:

But Battlefleet Gothic is?

When we're talking about starships, probably better than tabletop 40k which is close range tactical ground combat fought within ranges of a few hundred meters. Orbital bombardments from starships would be levelling the entire battlefield with single salvos, not merely dropping tank shell blasts for instance.

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

Every fluff example we have of SM ships completely contradicts this point, just for the record.

Not really, BFG fluff, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch RPG fluff, etc all supports this, as does the descriptions of the Codex Astartes breaking down the Astartes from large integrated fighting forces and the split of the IN from the Imperial Army. Most 40k tabletop fluff doesn't go into stuff like this in huge detail, especially IN vs SM stuff, because it's not part of the main game. The stuff that does go into it really makes it clear that the IN has the upper hand in space warfare. Keep in mind that heresy era stuff and CSM vessels don't fall under these same restrictions.

EDIT: There's a reason why Space Marines are somewhat of a "niche-race" in BFG, a standard BFG sized fleet can be large enough to be many chapters entire fleet, and being geared more towards delivering and supporting shock troops to surface targets, tends to have issues with purely space battles.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

Yes there is. Saying that the Imperial Guard have bigger guns than the Astartes was the original comment. Someone else posted about Astartes starships to refute that point. Bringing in a third organisation (the Imperial Navy) completely changes the topic. The Astartes have bigger guns than the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Navy is irrelevant.

No, because again, without the Navy, the Guard doesn't fight. If the guard is present, the Navy is present and working in conjunction with them, unless it's a world where they are simply a garrison of some sort.

Also, Battlefleet Gothic rules don't necessarily dictate the background. Astartes had to get involved in the Badab War for a reason.

Because the Astartes involved themselves in it, very few IN/IG assets were devoted to that conflict in general. it's basically a story designed from the ground up to be a 41st millenium Horus Heresy style SM vs SM war.

Vaktathi wrote:No, because again, without the Navy, the Guard doesn't fight. If the guard is present, the Navy is present and working in conjunction with them, unless it's a world where they are simply a garrison of some sort.

Maybe the Guard forces get in a separate dispute with the Astartes that the Navy don't want to involved in unnecessarily. Maybe it's a case of mistake identity, or outright treachery, and the Navy doesn't actually know who is in the right. Possibly the Navy ships are preoccupied. Who knows. Point was, it was Guard against Astartes, not Guard and Navy against Astartes.

Because the Astartes involved themselves in it, very few IN/IG assets were devoted to that conflict in general. it's basically a story designed from the ground up to be a 41st millenium Horus Heresy style SM vs SM war.

Okay, fair enough. Even still, the Space Wolves defeated the vastly superior forces they were fighting agianst when Cardinal Bucharis ordered his forces to take Fenris.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:]
Maybe the Guard forces get in a separate dispute with the Astartes that the Navy don't want to involved in unnecessarily. Maybe it's a case of mistake identity, or outright treachery, and the Navy doesn't actually know who is in the right. Possibly the Navy ships are preoccupied. Who knows. Point was, it was Guard against Astartes, not Guard and Navy against Astartes.

Possible, but again, if the IN is there,there's likely an overall commander with authority over both, and if that commanders forces get embroiled with the SM's, then he's not just going to sit there while one part of his forces fights something else.

Again, if the Guard goes somewhere, the IN is there with it, and they're not going to be acting disctinctly.

Okay, fair enough. Even still, the Space Wolves defeated the vastly superior forces they were fighting agianst when Cardinal Bucharis ordered his forces to take Fenris.

Ecclesiarchal forces, not Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy forces IIRC. Also, with SW's, there's always a magical a good bit of plot armor, they really can't ever lose at anything. They're intricate spymasters, space berzerkers, masters of mobile warfare, space pranksters, monsters of close combat, mighty fortress builders, dark executioners, goofy drunkards, astounding psykers, psysker haters, all in one at the same time.

Vaktathi wrote:Ecclesiarchal forces, not Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy forces IIRC.

He's got a point there - by that time Bucharis had control over about a fifth of the Imperium, including the entire Segmentum Pacificus Navy, which he deployed against Fenris. Which the Space Wolves's returning fleet of battle barges basically wiped the floor with, after millions upon millions of Guardsmen died in the futile attempt to overcome a couple hundred Marines dug in on the ground.

Typical SW plot armour, as you say. Not a piece of fluff I'd be proud to cite, but it exists.

Of course this silly story doesn't change all the other instances where it says that Space Marines are quite simply not intended to have that kind of "air"power ever since the Horus Heresy.

[edit] Someone actually uploaded that premiere example of mary-sueism onto Lexicanum. You can read the entire abomination here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief#First_Mistake

Is that what it used to be? Silly indeed, by any realistic standard even for the Astartes they'd be overwhelmed in hours. However in the current book it just talks about several orders of sisters being involved in a 3 week war.

Oh yeah, that is another incident - and much more believable.

Bucharis was shortly after Vandire, so some time ago. The Ecclesiarchy's attack on Fenris happened rather recently (I think) and was retaliation for the Wolves gunning down a couple priests who had landed on their world.

Vaktathi wrote:Possible, but again, if the IN is there,there's likely an overall commander with authority over both, and if that commanders forces get embroiled with the SM's, then he's not just going to sit there while one part of his forces fights something else.

And if it's an Imperial Navy overall commander would he really choose to go up against the Astartes when the reason for conflict could be anything? It could be a small portion of the Guard involved, too.

Again, if the Guard goes somewhere, the IN is there with it, and they're not going to be acting disctinctly.

True about the Navy being required, but they don't necessarily act together all the time, and the Navy will not necessarily choose the Guard over the Emperor's legendary Angels of Death.

Ecclesiarchal forces, not Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy forces IIRC. Also, with SW's, there's always a magical a good bit of plot armor, they really can't ever lose at anything. They're intricate spymasters, space berzerkers, masters of mobile warfare, space pranksters, monsters of close combat, mighty fortress builders, dark executioners, goofy drunkards, astounding psykers, psysker haters, all in one at the same time.

Actually, they were Naval forces. Well yeah, that piece of background was a bit ridiculous, but it is still there, and I can't think of any other Astartes versus Imperial Navy background examples.

Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, but the Navy AREN'T the Guard.

Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

That does not change the fact that the Imperial Guard is, unlike SM, and organisation incapable of bringing the largest ships into the fight.

If we're giving support from outside organisations, why don't we go ahead and let the Mechanicus, Arbites, Custodes, Astropathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum etc. join the SM? after all, they usually support each other.

The flaw in your logic is so overwhelmingly enormous that it boggles the mind.

And the Imperial navy does indeed hold the galaxy together, almost always without the guard.

And the Guard fight on home soil rediculously often. Go speak to a Cadian.

AND the ships that transport the Guard, the troopships (which still belong solely to the navy), are NOT made for war. They are the terrestrial equivalent of a ferry. Whereas The Marines ships ARE made for war, and have huge amounts of redundancy and can survive horrific damages from ships many, many times their size.

I didn't even bother reading most of your post, so stunned I was by your opening statement. (I only got half way)

As an aside: quoting BF:G and then ignoring the part "Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy" is disingenuous. A Grand Cruiser isn't the biggest thing on the Imperial Navy's list of ships, and certainly Grand Cruisers are more common than Battle Barges, which are EXTREMELY rare.

Be a pedant about the separation of Guard and Navy all you want, they work together more often than they work with Astartes; as far as a crusade is concerned they're almost inseparable, merely fighting different aspects of the same war instead of being two wildly divergent organizations. A crusade's Lord General has command of the naval assets anyway.

Melissia wrote:As an aside: quoting BF:G and then ignoring the part "Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy" is disingenuous. A Grand Cruiser isn't the biggest thing on the Imperial Navy's list of ships, and certainly Grand Cruisers are more common than Battle Barges, which are EXTREMELY rare.

Be a pedant about the separation of Guard and Navy all you want, they work together more often than they work with Astartes; as far as a crusade is concerned they're almost inseparable, merely fighting different aspects of the same war instead of being two wildly divergent organizations. A crusade's Lord General has command of the naval assets anyway.

Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Go ahead, point me to a Regiment that owns a space craft. You can't? Aww.

They don't even own their in-atmosphere craft, as these are merely lent to Regiments for specific engagements. (Except for the Elysians)

Phantine.

we form a quickly diminishing shield so the astartes can rocket in and devastate the enemies advancing on us

im2randomghgh wrote:
That does not change the fact that the Imperial Guard is, unlike SM, and organisation incapable of bringing the largest ships into the fight.

If both the IN and IG are operating in the same area, there's a common commander with authority over both and officers with the authority to order support from starships. The IG officers can't order the starship to go to a particular destination or anything, but they can order bombardments under the shared command structure of the Munitorum.

If we're giving support from outside organisations, why don't we go ahead and let the Mechanicus, Arbites, Custodes, Astropathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum etc. join the SM? after all, they usually support each other.

Because, aside from the Navis Nobilite which the SM's also make use of, they're completely separate organizations. The IN and IG are both under the Munitorum.

The flaw in your logic is so overwhelmingly enormous that it boggles the mind.

No, you just don't understand the structure under which they operate, not my fault.

They're both under the shared command of the Munitorum, meaning their senior commands are identical. Hence if one gets drawn in, so does the other. If you fight the Arbites, the Mechanicus doesn't get involved. If you fight the Astartes, the Custodes don't get involved. If you engage PDF the Guard doesn't necessarily get involved nor does the Officio Assassinorum. If you're fighting the Guard, the Navy must by necessity be involved.

And the Imperial navy does indeed hold the galaxy together, almost always without the guard.

As long as you're referring to shipping lanes in space. Without the Imperial Guard the Imperium would disappear overnight with nothing but highly variable PDF forces and one Space Marine per world.

And the Guard fight on home soil rediculously often. Go speak to a Cadian.

Right...I never said the guard don't fight on "home soil". However the only time the IN isn't there for the IG in some capacity is isolated garrison forces.

And as long as we're talking about Cadia, we are talking about the same planet and sector with probably the largest Imperial Navy presence outside the Sol sytem?

AND the ships that transport the Guard, the troopships (which still belong solely to the navy), are NOT made for war. They are the terrestrial equivalent of a ferry.

And are escorted to combat zones by warships...

Whereas The Marines ships ARE made for war, and have huge amounts of redundancy and can survive horrific damages from ships many, many times their size.

Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

I didn't even bother reading most of your post, so stunned I was by your opening statement. (I only got half way)

Which says way more about you and your stance than mine buddy. If you can't be bothered to read, understand, and respond to an argument, or are simply overawed by those I put forth, then it looks like my job is done.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Go ahead, point me to a Regiment that owns a space craft. You can't? Aww.

They don't even own their in-atmosphere craft, as these are merely lent to Regiments for specific engagements. (Except for the Elysians)

They aren't directly the same entity, but they're both part of the Adeptus Munitorum meaning they share a common upper command structure. You'll never have IG without the Navy unless it's some isolated defense force, and if the IG and IN are operating together, then they'll have a common commander, so they're effectively operating as the same entity. The upper command, supply, commissariate, etc resources and channels. They're all "Adeptus Munitorum" organizations.

No different than the fact that most of a Space Marine Chapters personnel are not in fact Space Marines, but Chapter Serfs, the Chapter doesn't work without them.

im2randomghgh wrote:Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Right, it just means it's irrelevant.

Vaktathi wrote:Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

However, the only available background that I know of tells of a Strike Cruiser not only defeating, but defeating seemingly unscathed an Imperial Navy Cruiser.

This is another one of those fun situations where fluff and tabletop stats aren't even within miles of each other. Space Marine fleet vessels in fluff are more than capable of holding their own against almost anything the Imperial Navy could throw at them - and some, like the Eternal Crusader, are in a class all their own. Never having played BG, I can't comment on their stats there, but we all know that game balance trumps fluff when designing something that's fun to play.

Navy ships are stronger, because most SM vessels are design for planetary assault and orbital support. A strike cruiser is a light cruiser by the standards of the Imperial Navy. Battle Barge is about as good as a Battleship, but they are rare.
Honestly though, I dont think "Who has the biggest ship" determines SMs attitude towards IG.

Seaward wrote:This is another one of those fun situations where fluff and tabletop stats aren't even within miles of each other. Space Marine fleet vessels in fluff are more than capable of holding their own against almost anything the Imperial Navy could throw at them

The actual GW studio fluff says otherwise.

- and some, like the Eternal Crusader, are in a class all their own.

The Eternal Crusader isn't a typical Space Marine vessel, and the IN has its own one-off mega-ships as well.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

However, the only available background that I know of tells of a Strike Cruiser not only defeating, but defeating seemingly unscathed an Imperial Navy Cruiser.

A single, isolated battle doesn't say a whole lot about what would typically happen. Also, if this is from a BL book (not familiar with what battle you're talking about) they aren't exactly required to know what they're talking about, if you've read the Space Wolves omnibus they talk about the IG fielding large numbers of Predators and Rhinos for instance. GW studio fluff very clearly states that the SM ships are not generally capable of going toe to toe with IN ships, Battlebarges can but are incredibly rare and outnumbered by similarly capable IN ships. The IN and Inquisition watch SM fleets and acquisitions very closely to ensure that they *don't* gain the capabilities to adequately challenge the Imperial Navy.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Right, it just means it's irrelevant.

No.

IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield, Astartes don't. SM are as likely to have naval support as Guard.

For every Navy ship you add to the IG, and an identical one to the space marines.

they are autonomous. Deal with it.

Saying that their ties to the Munitorum make them one thing is bull gak. SM have ties to the Ad Mech and the Emprah himself. Does that make every space marine an Emperor?

Hell no. There's a reason the Imperial Army no longer exists: That organisation became the Guard and Navy so that they would never be unified.

im2randomghgh wrote:
IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield, Astartes don't.

They don't rely on goodwill, both are Munitorum organizations. An order comes from Segmentum Command and both organizations carry it out. They are departments of the Munitorum, not completely separate and autonomous organizations.

SM are as likely to have naval support as Guard.

For every Navy ship you add to the IG, and an identical one to the space marines.

And in that case, the IN will have the advantage because it's ships are bigger and most SM chapters only have a dozen starships, of which maybe 1/3 to 1/2 aren't Escorts, while a Sector Battlegroup (of which there are tens of thousands) will have 75-100 Capital Ships and many more escorts.

Saying that their ties to the Munitorum make them one thing is bull gak. SM have ties to the Ad Mech and the Emprah himself. Does that make every space marine an Emperor?

No, it just shows you don't have any idea of what you're talking about or how this whole thing works and probably won't get it or budge on anything no matter what I or anyone else says because you just don't want to actually debate this. Both the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard are organizations under the shared command of the Munitorum. That means they are different parts of the same whole with an identical high command.

To put it another way, look at it like the US military. Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force are all different organizations but share a common structure and organization and overall command (joint chiefs) with a unified system of laws and similar if not identical heirarchies. Officers from one branch can give orders in some respects to forces from another but cannot take direct command of anything as they feel like it, but they operate as one whole under the Department of Defense as lead by the Join Chiefs of Staff, which the 40k equivalent would be the Departmento Munitorum.

The Space Marines would be like the Secret Service (well, the Custodes would but it still fits) while the Inquisition would be the Justice Department and the Officio Assasionorum would be CIA operatives. These organizations have no interconnection with the Department of Defense except through the President of the United States (who we could equate to the Emperor or High Lords) and operate completely independently of each other except in exceptional circumstances as ordered by the President of the United States, whereas the various armed forces under the Department of Defense (as equated to the Departmento Munitorum) are all interconnected with linked command structures, supply systems and legal systems and whatnot and by their very nature operate with the others under an overall shared command at some level.

Hell no. There's a reason the Imperial Army no longer exists: That organisation became the Guard and Navy so that they would never be unified.

They aren't in the way they used to be, an Imperial Guard general cannot command a starship and a Navy captain cannot order a ground invasion. That doesn't mean they are completely distinct organizations the way the Space Marines and AdMech or Custodes are. There is no shared command between the AdMech and the Space Marines, no common legal structure or command heirarchy, with the IG and Navy there is.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield, Astartes don't.

They don't rely on goodwill, both are Munitorum organizations. An order comes from Segmentum Command and both organizations carry it out. They are departments of the Munitorum, not completely separate and autonomous organizations.

SM are as likely to have naval support as Guard.

For every Navy ship you add to the IG, and an identical one to the space marines.

And in that case, the IN will have the advantage because it's ships are bigger and most SM chapters only have a dozen starships, of which maybe 1/3 to 1/2 aren't Escorts, while a Sector Battlegroup (of which there are tens of thousands) will have 75-100 Capital Ships and many more escorts.

Saying that their ties to the Munitorum make them one thing is bull gak. SM have ties to the Ad Mech and the Emprah himself. Does that make every space marine an Emperor?

No, it just shows you don't have any idea of what you're talking about or how this whole thing works and probably won't get it or budge on anything no matter what I or anyone else says because you just don't want to actually debate this. Both the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard are organizations under the shared command of the Munitorum. That means they are different parts of the same whole with an identical high command.

To put it another way, look at it like the US military. Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force are all different organizations but share a common structure and organization and overall command (joint chiefs) with a unified system of laws and similar if not identical heirarchies. Officers from one branch can give orders in some respects to forces from another but cannot take direct command of anything as they feel like it, but they operate as one whole under the Department of Defense as lead by the Join Chiefs of Staff, which the 40k equivalent would be the Departmento Munitorum.

The Space Marines would be like the Secret Service (well, the Custodes would but it still fits) while the Inquisition would be the Justice Department and the Officio Assasionorum would be CIA operatives. These organizations have no interconnection with the Department of Defense except through the President of the United States (who we could equate to the Emperor or High Lords) and operate completely independently of each other except in exceptional circumstances as ordered by the President of the United States, whereas the various armed forces under the Department of Defense (as equated to the Departmento Munitorum) are all interconnected with linked command structures, supply systems and legal systems and whatnot and by their very nature operate with the others under an overall shared command at some level.

Hell no. There's a reason the Imperial Army no longer exists: That organisation became the Guard and Navy so that they would never be unified.

They aren't in the way they used to be, an Imperial Guard general cannot command a starship and a Navy captain cannot order a ground invasion. That doesn't mean they are completely distinct organizations the way the Space Marines and AdMech or Custodes are. There is no shared command between the AdMech and the Space Marines, no common legal structure or command heirarchy, with the IG and Navy there is.

1. The Imperial Guard and Navy are not one organisation in any sense of the word. The guard cannot compare the size of their guns to those of the astartes because the astartes have starships. So does the Navy, though it is irrelevant because we were talking about guard and SM. That's really all there is to it.

2. You mistook that statement enormously. I meant for every (for example) Emperor-class ship you add to the navy, add one Emperor-class ship to the astartes. I have no idea why the [MOD EDIT - Do NOT try to 'work around' the swear filter.] you started spilling out horribly incorrect numbers.

3. Your sheer wrong-ness hurts my soul. Those were just entirely flawed analogies. Don't even get me started. As to the Ad Mech-Astartes, they are much, much, MUCH closer than Navy-Guard could ever, ever be. The Ad Mech regulates space marine gene-seed. Can you fathom that amount of trust? Also, roughly 1% of Space Marines are those of the tech variety. PLUSPLUSPLUS without the intervention of the Imperial Fist SPACE MARINES, the Mechanicus would have been destroy by the Dark Mechanicum during the Schism of Mars.

4. No.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. The Imperial Guard and Navy are not one organisation in any sense of the word. The guard cannot compare the size of their guns to those of the astartes because the astartes have starships. So does the Navy, though it is irrelevant because we were talking about guard and SM. That's really all there is to it.

And once you start bringing in starships you by necessity must bring in the IN because they go along with the IG part and parcel, they IG can't fight without the IN to get them to the fight, resupply them, etc.

You mistook that statement enormously. I meant for every (for example) Emperor-class ship you add to the navy, add one Emperor-class ship to the astartes.

First off, why? The SM's don't have anywhere near the same numbers of such vessels, many chapters don't have them at all.

second off, that wasn't exactly clear. I have no idea why the fuuck you started spilling out horribly incorrect numbers.

Evading language censors to insult me instead of actually engaging the arguments I'm putting forth (Ad Hominem Fallacy) isn't exactly posting within the Dakka forum guidelines. Those numbers are from the Battlefleet Gothic source material which it's obvious you aren't familiar with despite it being available free online.

3. Your sheer wrong-ness hurts my soul. Those were just entirely flawed analogies. Don't even get me started.

How so, if they're wrong, then point it out?

Everything I post you simply reply with "WRONG!" without actually saying anything, arguing the point, or providing counter-examples or citing source material. Your pulling the equivalent of plugging your ears and yelling "LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU".

You don't want to actually debate anything here, and when someone points out something that proves you wrong, you just ignore it and respond with "YOU'RE WRONG" and not saying why...

As to the Ad Mech-Astartes, they are much, much, MUCH closer than Navy-Guard could ever, ever be. The Ad Mech regulates space marine gene-seed. Can you fathom that amount of trust?

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of the SM's complying with a mandate if they want to survive to ensure they aren't suffering mutation or attract Inquisitorial attention, and it's not a matter of the SM's and AdMech engaging in battle or operating together, the Space Marines are far more autonomous from the AdMech than the IG/IN, I'm not sure how you're arguing otherwise. The AdMech produces, maintains, and equips all Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy vessels, vehicles and weapons, provides techpriests to accompany them into battle, etc providing much more direct battlefield support if we're going to go that route.

Also, roughly 1% of Space Marines are those of the tech variety.

And there are actual Techpriests attached to Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy units...so what?

PLUSPLUSPLUS

Are we in a shouting match here?

without the intervention of the Imperial Fist SPACE MARINES, the Mechanicus would have been destroy by the Dark Mechanicum during the Schism of Mars.

And the IG and IN have supported the mechanicus in numerous wars and vice versa thousands of times as well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation.

4. No.

No? No what?

im2randomghgh wrote:IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield

That's like saying that the IG rely on the good will of the munitorum to get lasguns...

They're about as separate as the navy and air force in the modern US military.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. The Imperial Guard and Navy are not one organisation in any sense of the word. The guard cannot compare the size of their guns to those of the astartes because the astartes have starships. So does the Navy, though it is irrelevant because we were talking about guard and SM. That's really all there is to it.

And once you start bringing in starships you by necessity must bring in the IN because they go along with the IG part and parcel, they IG can't fight without the IN to get them to the fight, resupply them, etc.

You mistook that statement enormously. I meant for every (for example) Emperor-class ship you add to the navy, add one Emperor-class ship to the astartes.

First off, why? The SM's don't have anywhere near the same numbers of such vessels, many chapters don't have them at all.

second off, that wasn't exactly clear. I have no idea why the fuuck you started spilling out horribly incorrect numbers.

Evading language censors to insult me instead of actually engaging the arguments I'm putting forth (Ad Hominem Fallacy) isn't exactly posting within the Dakka forum guidelines. Those numbers are from the Battlefleet Gothic source material which it's obvious you aren't familiar with despite it being available free online.

3. Your sheer wrong-ness hurts my soul. Those were just entirely flawed analogies. Don't even get me started.

How so, if they're wrong, then point it out?

Everything I post you simply reply with "WRONG!" without actually saying anything, arguing the point, or providing counter-examples or citing source material. Your pulling the equivalent of plugging your ears and yelling "LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU".

You don't want to actually debate anything here, and when someone points out something that proves you wrong, you just ignore it and respond with "YOU'RE WRONG" and not saying why...

As to the Ad Mech-Astartes, they are much, much, MUCH closer than Navy-Guard could ever, ever be. The Ad Mech regulates space marine gene-seed. Can you fathom that amount of trust?

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of the SM's complying with a mandate if they want to survive to ensure they aren't suffering mutation or attract Inquisitorial attention, and it's not a matter of the SM's and AdMech engaging in battle or operating together, the Space Marines are far more autonomous from the AdMech than the IG/IN, I'm not sure how you're arguing otherwise. The AdMech produces, maintains, and equips all Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy vessels, vehicles and weapons, provides techpriests to accompany them into battle, etc providing much more direct battlefield support if we're going to go that route.

Also, roughly 1% of Space Marines are those of the tech variety.

And there are actual Techpriests attached to Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy units...so what?

PLUSPLUSPLUS

Are we in a shouting match here?

without the intervention of the Imperial Fist SPACE MARINES, the Mechanicus would have been destroy by the Dark Mechanicum during the Schism of Mars.

And the IG and IN have supported the mechanicus in numerous wars and vice versa thousands of times as well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation.

4. No.

No? No what?

1. No, Ships are part of the Astartes armoury, and not a part of the Imperial Guard armoury. It really doesn't need to be more complicated then that, not sure why the hell you would insist on complicating things.

2. The point was, again, miss interpreted by you. The point was that in an Astartes-Guard Total war, the SM would get at LEAST as much, if not many, many times more support from the navy then would the guard. Also, I would like to point out, in naval battles, the SM still fight. IG don't.

3. I did not insult you, I used strong language for emphasis of a point. Anyways, your numbers ARE incorrect. There are 50-75 ships per sector battlefleet, not all of which are capital ships. (Lexicanum). Also, the milky way is roughly 100,000 LY in diameter and 1000 LY thick. With each Sector being roughly 200 Cubic LY, and only a miniscule fraction of space being Imperial, Meaning there is absolutely no way there are tens of thousands of sectors.

4. You see boorishness where there is only laziness and profound apathy. This conversation is long past it's expiration date.

5. Yes. Just not 1% of the IG.

6. YESYESYES

7. IG and Navy have supported the Admech before. But they have never saved Mars, and the entire modern Mechanicus with it.

8. No.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. No, Ships are part of the Astartes armoury, and not a part of the Imperial Guard armoury. It really doesn't need to be more complicated then that, not sure why the hell you would insist on complicating things.

Because things aren't that simple. Again, trying to take the IG by itself just isn't the way it works, just as nobody fights a war against the US army without engaging the US Air Force, US Navy (which sends fight aircraft many hundreds of miles inland to support operations), and typically the US Marines as well. The only time you'll fight any one of these things on their own is small isolated engagements, just as the only time the IG fight without assistance from the IN is when they're isolated garrissons.

2. The point was, again, miss interpreted by you. The point was that in an Astartes-Guard Total war, the SM would get at LEAST as much, if not many, many times more support from the navy then would the guard.

Depends on the forces available, in some situations perhaps yes, but on the balance the IN is much stronger and much larger and much more available than Astartes naval support which is designed for quick engagements where hopefully only one ship is needed.

Also, I would like to point out, in naval battles, the SM still fight. IG don't.

Which wasn't part of the discussion. However they often do fight boarding actions and ship defense if on board. The previous IG codex had a story about an IG regiment boarding repelling Ork boarders and counterattacking into the Ork vessel, driving them off.

3. I did not insult you, I used strong language for emphasis of a point. Anyways, your numbers ARE incorrect. There are 50-75 ships per sector battlefleet, not all of which are capital ships. (Lexicanum). Also, the milky way is roughly 100,000 LY in diameter and 1000 LY thick. With each Sector being roughly 200 Cubic LY, and only a miniscule fraction of space being Imperial, Meaning there is absolutely no way there are tens of thousands of sectors.

Assuming those dimensions (100,000wide x100,000long x1,000 tall) we get 10,000,000,000,000 cubic LY in the Galaxy. Divide that by 200 Cubic LY per sector and we get a total of 50,000,000,000 (50 billion) total possible sectors. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets at that point is an insignificant proportion.

5. Yes. Just not 1% of the IG.

They probably don't need that many, regardless I'm sure there are many crewman capable of routine maintenance and repair because otherwise nothing would function. It still doesn't show a greater link.

7. IG and Navy have supported the Admech before. But they have never saved Mars, and the entire modern Mechanicus with it.

That was ten thousand years before, and the IG and IN have saved many vital forgeworlds and technologies in the intervening timeframe, and the Mechanicus has had it's own run ins with the Astartes as well. Regardless, it still doesn't mean that they're closer in terms of operations than the IG and IN are, they just may have fonder memories of each other at best. The mechanicus does not ride to war with the astartes. It does with the IG and IN and the IG an IN ride to war together under the same strategic command.

8. No.

Again, no what?

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. No, Ships are part of the Astartes armoury, and not a part of the Imperial Guard armoury. It really doesn't need to be more complicated then that, not sure why the hell you would insist on complicating things.

Because things aren't that simple. Again, trying to take the IG by itself just isn't the way it works, just as nobody fights a war against the US army without engaging the US Air Force, US Navy (which sends fight aircraft many hundreds of miles inland to support operations), and typically the US Marines as well. The only time you'll fight any one of these things on their own is small isolated engagements, just as the only time the IG fight without assistance from the IN is when they're isolated garrissons.

2. The point was, again, miss interpreted by you. The point was that in an Astartes-Guard Total war, the SM would get at LEAST as much, if not many, many times more support from the navy then would the guard.

Depends on the forces available, in some situations perhaps yes, but on the balance the IN is much stronger and much larger and much more available than Astartes naval support which is designed for quick engagements where hopefully only one ship is needed.

Also, I would like to point out, in naval battles, the SM still fight. IG don't.

Which wasn't part of the discussion. However they often do fight boarding actions and ship defense if on board. The previous IG codex had a story about an IG regiment boarding repelling Ork boarders and counterattacking into the Ork vessel, driving them off.

3. I did not insult you, I used strong language for emphasis of a point. Anyways, your numbers ARE incorrect. There are 50-75 ships per sector battlefleet, not all of which are capital ships. (Lexicanum). Also, the milky way is roughly 100,000 LY in diameter and 1000 LY thick. With each Sector being roughly 200 Cubic LY, and only a miniscule fraction of space being Imperial, Meaning there is absolutely no way there are tens of thousands of sectors.

Assuming those dimensions (100,000wide x100,000long x1,000 tall) we get 10,000,000,000,000 cubic LY in the Galaxy. Divide that by 200 Cubic LY per sector and we get a total of 50,000,000,000 (50 billion) total possible sectors. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets at that point is an insignificant proportion.

5. Yes. Just not 1% of the IG.

They probably don't need that many, regardless I'm sure there are many crewman capable of routine maintenance and repair because otherwise nothing would function. It still doesn't show a greater link.

7. IG and Navy have supported the Admech before. But they have never saved Mars, and the entire modern Mechanicus with it.

That was ten thousand years before, and the IG and IN have saved many vital forgeworlds and technologies in the intervening timeframe, and the Mechanicus has had it's own run ins with the Astartes as well. Regardless, it still doesn't mean that they're closer in terms of operations than the IG and IN are, they just may have fonder memories of each other at best. The mechanicus does not ride to war with the astartes. It does with the IG and IN and the IG an IN ride to war together under the same strategic command.

8. No.

Again, no what?

1. With a theater of war 9460528.4x 10 to the power of twelve kilmeters across, every engagement is an isolated engagement. The fastest jets can cross the world in an hour, whereas even with warp travel it could take generations to cross the breadth of the galaxy.

2. -_- you managed to miss it AGAIN. TBH I don't even care. I won't try anymore. Forget this point.

3. If they happen to be there, they won't stand Idle. But astartes take full control of defensive and offensive boarding actions, and even captain their own ships. Unlike Guard. Who don't even have ships. And if you love US military analogies so much, I'll use it to describe your logic. If the USMC and US Army went to war, you think the Army would win because all the other branches would side with them by default and all gang up on the marines.

4. Except it is not a rectangle. It is a cylinder. And 200x200x200 (one sector) which equals 8,000,000 (8 million). So in your estimate, which takes the entire galaxy, Imperial and non Imperial, and overstates it sizes due to a basic geometrical failure on your part, could only contain 6250 sectors. 10's of thousands my ass.

6. Doesn't change the fact that there literally would be absolutely no Mechanicus of Mars without the IF. At all. None.

7. No.

Also consider that the Imperial Guard is a mind-bogglingly broad organization drawn from thousands upon thousands of distinct worlds with distinct fighting styles and tactical doctrine. You might run across a Space Marine Chapter that despises Kriegers and Valhallans for their meat-grinder tactics and callous attitude towards the lives of their conscripted soldiers, but views Elysians and Harakoni as brothers-in-arms for their courage, cunning, and awesomeness. You may find a Chapter that views the Kriegers and Valhallans as pious and honorable souls doing their duty to the Emperor and sees Elysians and Harakoni as cowards unwilling to stand toe-to-toe with the enemy. You might find a Chapter that despises both groups for being puny humans.

This question is generally far too broad to be easily-answered; within Space Marine we see Ultramarines (who are supposed to be the idealistic paragon of angelic awesomeness and thus respect the Guard) and Cadians (who are generally more competent, versatile, and battle-hardened than the average Guard regiment); if the game featured Black Templars and Catachans or Space Wolves and Tallarns the relationship would be completely different.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. With a theater of war 9460528.4x 10 to the power of twelve kilmeters across, every engagement is an isolated engagement. The fastest jets can cross the world in an hour, whereas even with warp travel it could take generations to cross the breadth of the galaxy.

Except often there are navy ships nearby or already there (such as Cadia) or if the IG has to be brought there, then of course the navy is involved...

2. -_- you managed to miss it AGAIN. TBH I don't even care. I won't try anymore. Forget this point.

Which points?

3. If they happen to be there, they won't stand Idle. But astartes take full control of defensive and offensive boarding actions, and even captain their own ships. Unlike Guard. Who don't even have ships. And if you love US military analogies so much, I'll use it to describe your logic. If the USMC and US Army went to war, you think the Army would win because all the other branches would side with them by default and all gang up on the marines.

That's a rather poor analogy there. The US marines aren't an independent organization that answers to practically nobody, they're heavily reliant on other services and are part of the same command structure. The Space Marines would be more like the ATF or Secret Service in terms of their relation here, completely distinct organizations that have little or no connection operational link to the others. What you are describing would be more akin to the IN fighting the IG.

4. Except it is not a rectangle. It is a cylinder.

Ok fine, we'll do it that way. Volume= (3.14)xRadius^2xHeight.

So we get 3.14x50,000^2x1000=7,850,000,000,000 so 21.5% smaller than the way I did it before, not a huge difference on the scales we are talking about.

And 200x200x200 (one sector)

Apparently somebody doesn't know how cubic measurement works. 200 cubic lightyears means you multiply 3 others numbers to get the 200 Cubic LY, something like 5x4x10. That's how cubic measurements work. If something says its 200 cubic *whatever*, that doesn't mean its 200x200x200*whatever*, it means AxBxC=200*whatever*.

which equals 8,000,000 (8 million). So in your estimate, which takes the entire galaxy, Imperial and non Imperial, and overstates it sizes due to a basic geometrical failure on your part, could only contain 6250 sectors. 10's of thousands my ass.

Or it's a basic failing of mathematics on your part.

Just to back myself up, Check the wikipedia numbers on the Milky Way's volume listed by cubic light years. It looks identical to that number I just calculated here a couple lines up doesn't it? Using that number of 7.85 trillion cubic lightyears divided by 200 cubic light years per sector, we get 39,250,000,000 (just over 39 billion) possible sectors.

Let's assume only 1 in Ten Million sectors has a sector battlefleet, 1 ten thousandth of 1% of the galaxies possible sectors, that still gives us 785,000 Sector Battlefleets consisting of dozens upon dozens of vessels, or almost 800 sector battlefleets per Space Marine chapter. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets all of a sudden doesn't sound so ridiculous anymore does it?

6. Doesn't change the fact that there literally would be absolutely no Mechanicus of Mars without the IF. At all. None.

Which is 100% completely irrelevant to anything being discussed and highly unlikely given that the Mechanicus had many other worlds at the time as well.

Vaktathi wrote:A single, isolated battle doesn't say a whole lot about what would typically happen. Also, if this is from a BL book (not familiar with what battle you're talking about) they aren't exactly required to know what they're talking about, if you've read the Space Wolves omnibus they talk about the IG fielding large numbers of Predators and Rhinos for instance. GW studio fluff very clearly states that the SM ships are not generally capable of going toe to toe with IN ships, Battlebarges can but are incredibly rare and outnumbered by similarly capable IN ships. The IN and Inquisition watch SM fleets and acquisitions very closely to ensure that they *don't* gain the capabilities to adequately challenge the Imperial Navy.

It wasn't just an isolated battle, though. There were repeated hit and runs where the Strike Cruiser survived Navy fire and then the Space Wolves fleet turned up and destroyed the rest of the Navy fleet. It's from
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp.39-42
Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition) apparently.

The attempt to reduce Astartes anti-naval capacity has kind of failed. The Astartes generally dominate on in space as well as on ground against normal Humans. The difference is in numbers, but that's another game completely.

Regardless, the Astartes have 'bigger guns' than the Imperial Guard, if not the Imperial Navy.

To me, Vaktathi is talking the most sense here.

Honestly. Most of the Space Marine disciples are crowing the awesomeness of the Battle Barges and whatnot. How many do you think there actually are?

According to the Battlefleet Gothic rulebooks (available at http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=4300022, but I'm consulting http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1280008_BFG_Imperial_Fleets.pdf for this), a Battle Barge can carry three companies of Space Marines. A Strike Cruiser carries one company. Space Marine chapters consist of 10 companies. So, I think its safe to assume 2 Battle Barges and 4 Strike Cruisers per chapter.

Now, aside from Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers (their only types of capital ships)....all the Space Marines have access to, by the Battlefleet Gothic rules, are Firestorm, Sword, Cobra, Gladius, and Nova-class frigates. Oh, and Hunter-class destroyers. So, Space Marines have the most diversity in their choices of escorts.

Now, if we discount the Space Marine vessels in the Imperial Navy list....we have three separate kinds of battleships, two classes of battlecruisers (heavier than cruisers), four classes of cruisers, and three classes of light cruisers, plus access to Falchionand Firestorm-class frigates. There are also "Grand Cruisers" that I don't know how they fit into the TO&E, but look like they can monkey-stomp some stuff. They also have access to all the Space Marine escorts, if you're not engaging in civil war, too.

My point is that the Navy just has access to more kinds of heavier ships than the Space Marines do. Furthermore, Space Marine capital ships are acknowledged to be superior when boarding actions are involved (because Space Marines are superior....um...Marines....), but their ships are configured for planetary assault, rather than fleet actions. An Apocalypse-class battleship has more shields, longer ranged weapons. and lances, whereas the Battle Barge has a slightly higher speed (+5 cm), torpedoes, and three Thunderhawk squadrons. A Battle Barge can start unleashing pain once it closes to within 30 cm of its target; the Apocalypse has a nova cannon with a 30 cm minimum range, a weapons battery with a range double that of the Battle Barge, and lances (with, conveniently, a 30-cm range). Also, the Apocalypse is cheaper. Oh, the reason I'm going on about the lances is because lances do a lot more damage against ships than mere weapons batteries.

Comparing the Strike Cruiser, weighing in at 145 points, to a Defiant-class light cruiser, at 130, still doesn't give any evidence of a categorical superiority of Astartes vessels. Again, the Strike Cruiser has higher speed, and the Defiant has lances. Their respective squadrons cancel each other out, and the Bombardment Cannon does....something. So, a Strike cruiser might be able to take a Defiant. Woo-hoo.

So certainly, if you only go with organic assets, the Space Marines have "bigger guns." However, the Imperial Navy has superiority over Space Marine fleets in a fleet engagement, whereas the Space Marine fleet won't necessarily be able to hold the orbitals against a fleet built for a fleet action. Like, oh, say, a Navy fleet. Furthermore, there is evidence of cooperation between the Navy and the Guard for naval gunfire support: the Officer of the Fleet. Now, since the Guard can't get anywhere without the Navy, its safe to say that the Guard will have NGS as well. So, if a Navy fleet cannot hold the orbitals, neither could a Space Marine fleet, and if both fleets are hanging around in orbit, well, the question of who has bigger guns is up for debate (lances vs bombardment cannon, or weapons batteries vs torpedoes, or nova cannon, or whatever). In which case...the "bigger guns" goes to whoever has the larger organic fire support weapons. Who do you think that could be?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It wasn't just an isolated battle, though. There were repeated hit and runs where the Strike Cruiser survived Navy fire and then the Space Wolves fleet turned up and destroyed the rest of the Navy fleet. It's from
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp.39-42
Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition) apparently.

Those were Space Wolves. This comparison is like taking Gaunt's Ghosts as an example to claim that individual Guardsmen generally have no problem whatsoever fragging Astartes in a one-on-one.
Discount the hero bonus stuff (seriously, the SW fighting 1/5! of the entire Imperium, and winning?). Take what is mentioned in the non-flavor basic descriptions of the material the factions work with instead to get a better picture, untainted by what is commonly referred to as plot armour. The books flat out state that Marine ships aren't meant to keep up with Navy vessels in a direct gun engagement, and it even gives you a reason for why that is so. Why the debates?

Just like ever since the Horus Heresy and its reformations Space Marines weren't meant for Guard-style line fighting and traditional warfare, Space Marines also weren't made to dominate space battles, and their equipment (ships) reflects this. The purpose of a Space Marine fleet is to get the troops from point A to point B as safe and as fast as possible, and to assist with the landing operation. If someone chooses to interpret the situation as presented in the codices and army books differently because Spess Mehreens always have to be the bestest at whatever they do, that's your decision of course (and I'm sure some Black Library author's interpretation will synch with that too), but the studio material itself is rather clear on the matter.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It wasn't just an isolated battle, though. There were repeated hit and runs where the Strike Cruiser survived Navy fire and then the Space Wolves fleet turned up and destroyed the rest of the Navy fleet. It's from
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp.39-42
Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition) apparently.

Well, I don't own either of those books so I can't comment, but that was before they codified 40k starship fluff much and the Sisters vs Space Wolves fluff now is rather different, and IIRC is of a single conflict that seems to have been retconned since then. That was back when IG still had Assault Cannons, Leman Russ tanks had better armored than Land Raiders, Dark Eldar and Tau didn't exist, Squats were playable, and Vortex weapons were common HQ wargear

The attempt to reduce Astartes anti-naval capacity has kind of failed.

How so?

The Astartes generally dominate on in space as well as on ground against normal Humans.

Again, how so? They're average capital ship is smaller with fewer guns. Battle Barges are rare vessels that aren't constantly committed to battle all the time and not all SM chapters have them or usually only 1. Strike Cruisers are the typical SM capital ship and are much smaller than IN cruisers in every way.

The difference is in numbers, but that's another game completely.

Except again, according to BFG, only Battle Barges are large enough to engage IN ships on something like an even footing and they're rare enough that not even every chapter has one.

Regardless, the Astartes have 'bigger guns' than the Imperial Guard, if not the Imperial Navy.

which, while true in an absolute sense, isn't quite accurate.


EDIT: I totally forgot this entire time about the IG's ability to field intermediate range ballistic missiles fitted with either plasma, nuclear or vortex missiles...

So there's also the Deathstrike to consider.

The Imperial Guard definitely have bigger guns than the Astartes, going by ground weapons.

Battlecannon compared to autocannon, for example, on their main tanks (which is an unfair comparison normally, as the predator is a light tank, but it IS their main tank so it's valid here). Countless kinds of heavy artillery (including ICBMs) versus thunderfire cannon or whirlwind. Every version of the Leman Russ. Heck even their primary transport has bigger guns, an ML and HB compared to an SB (the razorback in comparison has to give up transport space-- while the chimera has MORE transport space despite having two fire support weapons and more fire points).

The Guard has bigger guns. The Marines' strength isn't in big guns, it's in their ability to precisely apply a large amount of force and then get away with minimal damage, at least in lore.

I know, game and etc, but compare Titus in Space Marine to a scene where ten guardsmen are fighting Orks, one of whom is manning a plasma cannon mount (with a built in coolant system so it doesn't overheat). The guardsmen have more firepower overall. But even with just the bolgun alone Titus is capable of focusing his senses (Fury's marksman mode) and delivering headshot after headshot after headshot after headshot to kill Orks off in rapid succession due to precisely applied firepower, even though the Guardsmen have the advantage fo having more weapons and a FAR more powerful heavy weapon.

Lynata wrote:Those were Space Wolves. This comparison is like taking Gaunt's Ghosts as an example to claim that individual Guardsmen generally have no problem whatsoever fragging Astartes in a one-on-one.

That's a poor argument and you know it. It's in the Codex. You might as well deny the existence of Thunderwolf Cavalry (as well you might).

Discount the hero bonus stuff (seriously, the SW fighting 1/5! of the entire Imperium, and winning?).

Parts of it were tied up in various other planets and conflicts, and I assume that only a fraction of Bucharis' theoretical power fell upon Fenris.

The books flat out state that Marine ships aren't meant to keep up with Navy vessels in a direct gun engagement, and it even gives you a reason for why that is so.

Sure, they're not supposed to. The Ecclesiarchy isn't supposed to have any men-at-arms either, and then they merely went through a loophole that betrayed the spirit of the ruling. I'm not saying that a Battlebarge will take on an Imperial Battleship, but I'd probably take the background over the rules in regards to Strike Cruisers facing Navy Cruisers.

Why the debates?

Because of contradictory statements.

Vaktathi wrote:that was before they codified 40k starship fluff much and the Sisters vs Space Wolves fluff now is rather different

That doesn't mean that this point has been retconned, and this piece of background had nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle.

How so?

Well, I exaggerated there to be honest. The Navy of course has far more firepower than the Astartes, and biggest ships against biggest ships (barring notable exceptions), the Navy will emerge victorious. However, Strike Cruiser against Navy Cruiser has one piece of background going for it and some rules.

Again, how so? They're average capital ship is smaller with fewer guns. Battle Barges are rare vessels that aren't constantly committed to battle all the time and not all SM chapters have them or usually only 1. Strike Cruisers are the typical SM capital ship and are much smaller than IN cruisers in every way.

On equal terms the Astartes still seem to perform remarkably in space actions. Strike Cruisers also have more automated systems to allow for their smaller crew.

Except again, according to BFG, only Battle Barges are large enough to engage IN ships on something like an even footing and they're rare enough that not even every chapter has one.

I'll retract that statement, since it isn't accurate as you pointed out.

which, while true in an absolute sense, isn't quite accurate.

You still yet to tell me why the Imperial Navy will be so keen to side against the Emperors Angels' of Death.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:That's a poor argument and you know it. It's in the Codex.

Yes it is, and it still is just one occurrence that is contradicted by what other Codices state to be the norm. This is what I meant with the "hero bonus". At times, the outcome of individual engagements may be completely different to what "should" have happened - be it because of sudden technological malfunctions, weather conditions, the experience/condition/morale of those involved, or even just plain dumb luck. I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase "the warp did it", too. All of this doesn't change the fact that the ships themselves are quite simply neither supposed nor expected to perform this way. This is why I am argueing to favor technical specifications/descriptions over some one-off hero story.

Contrary to popular belief, it also wasn't the longbows that had allowed the English to win the Battle of Agincourt, for example ...

DAKKA DAKKA

Melissia wrote:That's like saying that the IG rely on the good will of the munitorum to get lasguns...

Guardsman: "Can we get those Lasguns, please....?????"
Munitorum Officer:"No, you cannot."
Guardsman:"Pretty PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Munitorum Officer:"I don't know...."
Guardsman:"The ORks are almost upon us, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Munitorum Officer:"Ok, here you a....oh, you are already chopped...."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And let me get few things straight here:

1. IG and IN work together just like AD and IoM ( they do not bweling one another but they work closely together ).

2. Space Wolves, aldo very powerful chapter can't fight 0.5% of the Imperium alone, 20% is a little off scale for a 1200 strong marine chapter.

3. Guard have bigger guns then Astartes, in fact Guard is better armed, armored and supplied. Astartes are after all self sustained special forces military force while the Guard is real military.

4. And SoB can totally kick Astartes ass simply with numbers alone ( even if there is 6 major orders there are like millions of lesser orders witch could mean million SoB all across the Imperium ), not to mention Celestians or Living Saints.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
That doesn't mean that this point has been retconned, and this piece of background had nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle.

I thought that was in regards to the conflict started with the ecclesiarchy was it not?

On equal terms the Astartes still seem to perform remarkably in space actions.

On equal terms yes, but fighting IN ships isn't equal terms. The IN ships are bigger and able to take more damage generally, much better designed for ship to ship combat, and for surface bombardment have access to bigger guns than even the Astartes. Lances are a primary naval weapon for most fleets to engage enemy ships and bombard planets, SM's only have access to these on small escort vessels whose availability for SM requisition in their fleets is often tightly controlled by the Inquisition. The IN has massive nova cannons, that can one-shot a Strike cruiser or annihilate entire armies on planets in one shot, Astartes have no such weapons. They have bombardment cannons which are sorta upgunned naval macrocannon and do more damage than normal cannons, but they still don't match Lances or Nova Cannons for power.

Strike Cruisers also have more automated systems to allow for their smaller crew.

Right, so they're more efficient in terms of crew requirements, but that usually make a whole lot of difference in a tactical engagement.

You still yet to tell me why the Imperial Navy will be so keen to side against the Emperors Angels' of Death.

Because the Astartes are essentially autonomous, independent organizations that do what they want and are beholden to nobody and are connected to the Imperium by little more than oaths of loyalty for the most part, they live and operate apart from the Imperium. The IG and IN are both subsections of the same organization which is an integral part of the Imperial Administration with direct representation amongst the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes often seen by the IN as a threat almost as often as xenos and heretics because of this, while the IG are direct comrades in arms under the same strategic command.

Brother Coa wrote:4. And SoB can totally kick Astartes ass simply with numbers alone ( even if there is 6 major orders there are like millions of lesser orders witch could mean million SoB all across the Imperium ), not to mention Celestians or Living Saints.

Naw, contrary to popular belief there's much less SoB than Astartes - but unlike Marine Chapters, the Orders Militant are much more tightly connected (all sharing a common hierarchy that, somewhere at the top, ends at a single leader) and often work in unison where deemed necessary. They won't show up often, but where they do, they do it in force. That said, the Citadel article on the subject does mention that purging Marine Chapters is "thankfully a rare task", probably for all parties involved.

You're quite correct on the other points you raised, though - at least in my opinion and from what I've read so far. Though I would add that it depends heavily on the individual regiment as far as the quality of arms and equipment is concerned - there's a vast difference between a lumbering behemoth like the Steel Legion or grizzled trench experts like the Death Korps and a bunch of conscripted farmhands who were just given second-hand lasguns and three weeks of training.

Lynata wrote:Naw, contrary to popular belief there's much less SoB than Astartes - but unlike Marine Chapters, the Orders Militant are much more tightly connected (all sharing a common hierarchy that, somewhere at the top, ends at a single leader) and often work in unison where deemed necessary. They won't show up often, but where they do, they do it in force. That said, the Citadel article on the subject does mention that purging Marine Chapters is "thankfully a rare task", probably for all parties involved.

Really? I always thought IG>SoB>SM. And that was logical to me because in some was Inquisition must keep balance between orders. There are 1000 Grey Knights, there is probably around 10.000 Deathwatch Space Marines and there should be in some logic great number of Sisters of Battle ( probably more than a million ).

You're quite correct on the other points you raised, though - at least in my opinion and from what I've read so far. Though I would add that it depends heavily on the individual regiment as far as the quality of arms and equipment is concerned - there's a vast difference between a lumbering behemoth like the Steel Legion or grizzled trench experts like the Death Korps and a bunch of conscripted farmhands who were just given second-hand lasguns and three weeks of training.

You are right when said the situation vary from world to world. I just said what was, in theory, some average points for all. The rest depends from world to world.

Lynata wrote:Yes it is, and it still is just one occurrence that is contradicted by what other Codices state to be the norm.

The Astartes can't compare to the power of the Imperial Navy, and I acknowledge that. However, I don't really see why a Strike Cruiser couldn't be capable of taking on an Imperial Navy Cruiser. Does that really skew the balance that much that it means that the naval power of the Astartes isn't restricted?

Vaktathi wrote:I thought that was in regards to the conflict started with the ecclesiarchy was it not?

No, it was in regards to the renegade Cardinal Bucharis, who shortly after the Age of Apostasy carved out his own empire from parts of the Imperium. His forces included Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy forces.

On equal terms yes, but fighting IN ships isn't equal terms. The IN ships are bigger and able to take more damage generally, much better designed for ship to ship combat, and for surface bombardment have access to bigger guns than even the Astartes. Lances are a primary naval weapon for most fleets to engage enemy ships and bombard planets, SM's only have access to these on small escort vessels whose availability for SM requisition in their fleets is often tightly controlled by the Inquisition. The IN has massive nova cannons, that can one-shot a Strike cruiser or annihilate entire armies on planets in one shot, Astartes have no such weapons. They have bombardment cannons which are sorta upgunned naval macrocannon and do more damage than normal cannons, but they still don't match Lances or Nova Cannons for power.

I would think that boarding actions could level the playing field, and Strike Cruisers are supposed to be fast and maneuverable, right? I would imagine that they can dodge a fair amount of shots (as I assume most ships can, considering the distances in space).

Right, so they're more efficient in terms of crew requirements, but that usually make a whole lot of difference in a tactical engagement.

It does, however, mean that more space can be set aside for redundancies and such.

Because the Astartes are essentially autonomous, independent organizations that do what they want and are beholden to nobody and are connected to the Imperium by little more than oaths of loyalty for the most part, they live and operate apart from the Imperium. The IG and IN are both subsections of the same organization which is an integral part of the Imperial Administration with direct representation amongst the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes often seen by the IN as a threat almost as often as xenos and heretics because of this, while the IG are direct comrades in arms under the same strategic command.

The Astartes are still legendary figures among the vast majority of the Imperium. Assuming they aren't clearly traitors, it would likely take a fair amount of persuasion to convince other loyalists to attack them. I'm unsure how many among the Imperial Navy know of that aspect of the Astartes-Navy relationship. Would it be common knowledge to all Captains?

@ SomeRandomEvilGuy; If you have access to the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada book look on page 26. It's a little fluff piece called 'Adeptus Astartes Fleet Capabilities in the Gothic Sector, Obscura Segmentum'. Which is exactly what your asking, I believe. I'm not going to copy the whole thing, it is quite long. A whole page in fact. But I will quote the last paragraph for you.

So, your half right! IMO

It's also worth noting that, in most of the fluff I've read, Space Marines (and their variants) tend not to play by Imperial Navy-style rules, anyway. Broadside weight matters little when you've got squads of eight-foot, power armored madmen slaughtering their way to your bridge.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Astartes can't compare to the power of the Imperial Navy, and I acknowledge that. However, I don't really see why a Strike Cruiser couldn't be capable of taking on an Imperial Navy Cruiser. Does that really skew the balance that much that it means that the naval power of the Astartes isn't restricted?

Looking at the Space Wolves, whose example you brought forth yourself ... apparently.

Brother Coa wrote:Really? I always thought IG>SoB>SM. And that was logical to me because in some was Inquisition must keep balance between orders. There are 1000 Grey Knights, there is probably around 10.000 Deathwatch Space Marines and there should be in some logic great number of Sisters of Battle ( probably more than a million ).

Well, the SoB, although apparently a favored tool of the Inquisition when it comes to hunting down renegade Chapters due to questions of loyalty, is not the only force capable to do so - they might always just ask another Chapter. The Marines are pretty fractured, and though some Chapters have a friendly relationship and may help each other out, others are in feud and will gladly respond to a request to wage war against the "traitor" - the Badab War is an excellent example for such inter-Chapter politics. Even neutral Chapters are likely to be persuaded if the case is clear, probably taking Marines going renegade as an affront against overall Astartes honour and, of course, their Emperor. Worst case, throwing lots of IG at them may help, too, accompanied by ample fire support from orbiting Navy ships.

Anyhow, the Sisters took 2.500 years (M36-M38.5) to have their numbers swell from 10k to 30k, so I don't think another 2.500 years (M38.5-M41) would have them suddenly grow into millions or even billions. The amount of Minor Orders is "unfortunately" unknown, though they are often mentioned in combination with descriptions like there being "many" of them (which doesn't sound too impressive) and often only incorporating a hundred or so Sisters each. From what we know of the fluff, the Minor Orders Militant play a very small role anyways, rarely being mentioned at all anywhere, which is likely due to their small size limiting the scope of their operations - I'd imagine most of them taking over duties such as guarding holy sites and pilgrim routes, purity control and smaller Inquisitorial requests, whereas the Major Orders with their thousands of Sisters do all the big campaigns and Crusades.

This is also reflected in the few official force composition charts we have: The number of Sisters of Battle joining the first defense against Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade was about 10.000 Sisters of Battle from 3 Major and 2 Minor Orders compared to more than 175.000 Space Marines from more than two dozen Chapters. [chart] The War for Armageddon (which resulted in the Order of the Martyred Lady being left with barely enough Sisters to field three companies) was similar, with ~1.000 Sisters from 2 Major Orders compared to ~150.000 Space Marines from 24 Chapters [chart]. There's not even enough Sisters around to protect all the major Cathedrals and Cardinals; the Basilika on Bladen for example (according to Codex Cityfight the most-important holy site of its sub-sector, on a world where "the Ecclesiarchy was strong") had to be defended by a Cadian regiment and the local clergy alone...

The comparatively low number of Sisters is probably as much for political reasons (Decree Passive - it's spirit is in violation already and the Church may not want to push it too far) as it is for reasons of cost (Astartes-grade equipment doesn't come cheap, most of the Church's budget likely goes into maintaining its infrastructure) and recruitment (the vast majority of Schola progena, the only source of new SoB novices, becomes Adeptus Terra scribes or join one of the many other branches of the Imperium - only few end up becoming Storm Troopers and Commissarrs or Sisters, and of the latter fewer still become Sisters of Battle). This is then combined with a high rate of attrition; the numbers of SoB are described as being in constant flux, with Major Orders sometimes capping at 7.000 Sisters, other times only having a few hundred (see Martyred Lady after Armageddon), and the vast majority of fresh recruits is needed to simply balance out combat losses.

I think the misconception results from most people assuming that a troop type's power is also reflected in their number, which is an understandable conclusion, though not always true. It takes a lot of digging in the studio material to notice this, though. There's also few people who are aware that, according to the Codices, there is only a single Storm Trooper regiment in the Imperial Guard with no more than 10.000 men, which is even fewer than the Marines or the Sisters (that said, of course there are still "equivalent" troops such as ISTs, Grenadiers and Kasrkin elsewhere).

Now back to the original topic though! As much as I like talking about Sisters fluff, I probably shouldn't go too much OT.

ToBeWilly wrote:@ SomeRandomEvilGuy; If you have access to the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada book look on page 26. It's a little fluff piece called 'Adeptus Astartes Fleet Capabilities in the Gothic Sector, Obscura Segmentum'. Which is exactly what your asking, I believe. I'm not going to copy the whole thing, it is quite long. A whole page in fact. But I will quote the last paragraph for you.

Spoiler:

In conclussion I would surmis that the Adeptus Astartes commands powerful fleet forces, capable of overwhelming even a heavily defended system. In a fleet action they would be at a disadvantage in comparision to Imperial vessels due to their special adaptations for planetary assaults. However it is hard to imagine that the Adeptus Astartes would accept a ship to ship fight on any but the most favourable terms, instead operating against shipping lanes, dock facilities and other vulnerable assets. I only pray that they remain on our side.

So, your half right! IMO

I don't, but that is indeed interesting. Thank you very much. Could I ask as to whose opinion it is?

Lynata wrote:Looking at the Space Wolves, whose example you brought forth yourself ... apparently.

Ah, but that was a fleet of Battle Barges. I mean, it still sounds silly unless one assumes that there more than just two fleets that Bucharis had sent out (hence resulting in him having a fraction of his forces present than if they were amassed - much likely the Imperium now, in fact) or that he'd already sustained large naval losses. The Space Wolves are supposed to have a larger-than-normal fleet, but otherwise it is a bit absurd if they were indeed capable of taking down almost the entire Segmentum Fleet.

So basically, I still think it could work if a Strike Cruiser would typically defeat a Navy Cruiser.

Seaward wrote:It's also worth noting that, in most of the fluff I've read, Space Marines (and their variants) tend not to play by Imperial Navy-style rules, anyway. Broadside weight matters little when you've got squads of eight-foot, power armored madmen slaughtering their way to your bridge.

It's hard to get those guys on there when they can be intercepted by numerous point defense systems (which most authors seem to forget exist), fighter craft, along with kilometer long frigate escorts, while the Strike Cruiser is taking fire from beyond its weapons range and the IN ships are firing their own torpedoes (filled not with marines but naval warheads the size of Macharius tanks)

I would think that boarding actions could level the playing field, and Strike Cruisers are supposed to be fast and maneuverable, right? I would imagine that they can dodge a fair amount of shots (as I assume most ships can, considering the distances in space).

they're a bit faster than IN vessels but not amazingly so, the bigger issue is that they require less in the way of logistics and red tape to move from place to place and what makes them more mobile in strategic terms.

The Astartes are still legendary figures among the vast majority of the Imperium. Assuming they aren't clearly traitors, it would likely take a fair amount of persuasion to convince other loyalists to attack them.

Engaging the Imperial guard that they're sharing a command with would probably do it as the overall commander probably doesn't want one portion of his force destroyed while the other sits by, and the retribution from the Munitorum and the Lord Commander Militant against a Navy officer who sat buy while IG troops were destroyed would probably be just as lethal as the Astartes. The IN is also actively wary of the Astartes because they have been known to attack other Imperial organizations if they feel they need to (in the Chapter's own subjective opinion of course) or if they are offended in some way, and are also one of the very few things that represents some sort of threat to the IN's power.

I'm unsure how many among the Imperial Navy know of that aspect of the Astartes-Navy relationship. Would it be common knowledge to all Captains?

the greater details? probably not, but they'd likely have a fair idea, if nothing else from their databanks of recognized Imperial starships.

Vaktathi wrote:It's hard to get those guys on there when they can be intercepted by numerous point defense systems (which most authors seem to forget exist), fighter craft, along with kilometer long frigate escorts, while the Strike Cruiser is taking fire from beyond its weapons range and the IN ships are firing their own torpedoes (filled not with marines but naval warheads the size of Macharius tanks)

I suspect point defense systems are overlooked largely because torpedoes seem relatively rare compared to lance weaponry, nova cannons, and all the other crud discussed in void battles. I also believe drop pods have a bit of fluff about how they come down too fast to be tracked by air defense systems - which is of course complete BS - so one might assume boarding torpedoes have the same eye-rolling lightning fast speed.

There are also other methods of delivery, such as Thunderhawks. You're right, though, in that it's not exactly a piece of cake to get aboard an IN vessel if the IN doesn't want you there, but, on the other hand, boarding is something Marines are designed for, so I fall in the camp that assumes they can do it. Like far too much in 40K, we don't know enough about it.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:@ SomeRandomEvilGuy; If you have access to the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada book look on page 26. It's a little fluff piece called 'Adeptus Astartes Fleet Capabilities in the Gothic Sector, Obscura Segmentum'. Which is exactly what your asking, I believe. I'm not going to copy the whole thing, it is quite long. A whole page in fact. But I will quote the last paragraph for you.

Spoiler:

In conclussion I would surmis that the Adeptus Astartes commands powerful fleet forces, capable of overwhelming even a heavily defended system. In a fleet action they would be at a disadvantage in comparision to Imperial vessels due to their special adaptations for planetary assaults. However it is hard to imagine that the Adeptus Astartes would accept a ship to ship fight on any but the most favourable terms, instead operating against shipping lanes, dock facilities and other vulnerable assets. I only pray that they remain on our side.

So, your half right! IMO

I don't, but that is indeed interesting. Thank you very much. Could I ask as to whose opinion it is?

You are very welcome.
unfortunately, it doesn't give a name. He titles it to 'Honoured Lord', which could be enybody. But he does state, "Their repeated implication seems to be that they are more likely to have to fight against Battlefleet Obscura then alongside it, hence their interest in joint fleet operations is minimal." Which seems to indicate he is an agent of the Imperial Navy: Battlefleet Obscura. That's just an assumption on my part, though.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. With a theater of war 9460528.4x 10 to the power of twelve kilmeters across, every engagement is an isolated engagement. The fastest jets can cross the world in an hour, whereas even with warp travel it could take generations to cross the breadth of the galaxy.

Except often there are navy ships nearby or already there (such as Cadia) or if the IG has to be brought there, then of course the navy is involved...

2. -_- you managed to miss it AGAIN. TBH I don't even care. I won't try anymore. Forget this point.

Which points?

3. If they happen to be there, they won't stand Idle. But astartes take full control of defensive and offensive boarding actions, and even captain their own ships. Unlike Guard. Who don't even have ships. And if you love US military analogies so much, I'll use it to describe your logic. If the USMC and US Army went to war, you think the Army would win because all the other branches would side with them by default and all gang up on the marines.

That's a rather poor analogy there. The US marines aren't an independent organization that answers to practically nobody, they're heavily reliant on other services and are part of the same command structure. The Space Marines would be more like the ATF or Secret Service in terms of their relation here, completely distinct organizations that have little or no connection operational link to the others. What you are describing would be more akin to the IN fighting the IG.

4. Except it is not a rectangle. It is a cylinder.

Ok fine, we'll do it that way. Volume= (3.14)xRadius^2xHeight.

So we get 3.14x50,000^2x1000=7,850,000,000,000 so 21.5% smaller than the way I did it before, not a huge difference on the scales we are talking about.

And 200x200x200 (one sector)

Apparently somebody doesn't know how cubic measurement works. 200 cubic lightyears means you multiply 3 others numbers to get the 200 Cubic LY, something like 5x4x10. That's how cubic measurements work. If something says its 200 cubic *whatever*, that doesn't mean its 200x200x200*whatever*, it means AxBxC=200*whatever*.

which equals 8,000,000 (8 million). So in your estimate, which takes the entire galaxy, Imperial and non Imperial, and overstates it sizes due to a basic geometrical failure on your part, could only contain 6250 sectors. 10's of thousands my ass.

Or it's a basic failing of mathematics on your part.

Just to back myself up, Check the wikipedia numbers on the Milky Way's volume listed by cubic light years. It looks identical to that number I just calculated here a couple lines up doesn't it? Using that number of 7.85 trillion cubic lightyears divided by 200 cubic light years per sector, we get 39,250,000,000 (just over 39 billion) possible sectors.

Let's assume only 1 in Ten Million sectors has a sector battlefleet, 1 ten thousandth of 1% of the galaxies possible sectors, that still gives us 785,000 Sector Battlefleets consisting of dozens upon dozens of vessels, or almost 800 sector battlefleets per Space Marine chapter. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets all of a sudden doesn't sound so ridiculous anymore does it?

6. Doesn't change the fact that there literally would be absolutely no Mechanicus of Mars without the IF. At all. None.

Which is 100% completely irrelevant to anything being discussed and highly unlikely given that the Mechanicus had many other worlds at the time as well.

Bit late, but here goes:

1. Okay, so if you are talking about the single largest theatre of war in the entire galaxy (Cadia) there are going to be both organisation. Doesn't mean every planet in the galaxy guarded by guard has naval support. Want examples?

2.

All the rest:

NOT 200 cubic LY. A sector is a cube whose sides measure 200LY. Therefore, 200x200x200.

Yeah, about 40,000 times larger than you thought it was. awkward?

My math messup was ALMOST as bad as yours, i missed two zeroes. either way, due to the Imperium controlling a mere fraction of the galaxy, They absolutely do NOT have tens of thousands of sectors. They have one million planets. There are 500 billion in the galaxy. That means they control 1/500 000 of the galaxy (average density). That would (using average density) give them 15 700 000 cubic lightyears, or just under two sectors. Uberfail GW writers strike again!

That girl-lieutenant wanted some space marine d. Not gonna lie.

The interesting thing about having a smaller crew means that a ship is actually *more* vulnerable to damage. Specifically, because there aren't as many damage control parties.

Concerning a Strike Cruiser, yeah, if it gets within boarding range, bad things will ensue. However, from my perusing of the Battlefleet Gothic books, it just doesn't seem that a Strike Cruiser is categorically superior to a IN light cruiser. I mean, nothing is exactly screaming "monkeystomp time!" like the difference between a Dictator cruiser and a Dauntless cruiser (110 points, and the Dictator would kick in the Dauntless' teeth). But, again, if a Strike cruiser tries to punch above its weight and go up against a full Cruiser, it looks like things would go badly for the Strike cruiser. By itself, of course; when you introduce screening elements, things become more fluid.

Ogiwan wrote:The interesting thing about having a smaller crew means that a ship is actually *more* vulnerable to damage. Specifically, because there aren't as many damage control parties.

Less crew quarters=more redundancy.

Plus they have about 3 1/2 gakloads of serfs aboard the ship.