What are the "most efficient buys" per codex? It doesn't necessarily mean it is the best unit, but in terms of cost efficiency vs versatility some purchases are an almost no brainer. This is not a measure of necessity, but a measure of "wow you get all that for 10 points! schweeeet"

To get onto this list it should be wow it's that cheap for something that does everything?? wow


If you mention "why" they are such good value, it would be great too

Dark Eldar: Venoms with 2 splinter cannons
Eldar: Fire Dragons (cheap melta troops)
Space Wolves: Grey Hunters
Sisters of Battle: Saint Celestine
BA: Lemartes
Vanilla SM: Terminators
IG: Mabo
Grey Knights: DCA


I really liked this thread, so I based it on it: Best Units per codex, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/399856.page

In honesty the list I've put up is based on the thread above and information gathered from the forums. I'm very interested in your tactical insights.

Probably an inflammatory response, but I stand behind it:

IG Stormtroopers!

I know they get a lot of hate (or perhaps apathy is more accurate), and that the classic argument goes "Vets are better!" to be rebuffed with "ST's fill a different role!" but at the end of the day, it's one of the most flexibly deployable units in the game; and you don't have to decide how you're going to deploy them beforehand.

They excel at popping up where and how you need them to and performing surgical strikes against the enemy, which is fantastic in a codex that is otherwise full of big blasts and (generally) foot-slogging or transport-riding grunts. I never leave home without 'em!

Without a doubt, it has to be the 70 point Land Speeder Typhoons for the Black Templars. They are great at 90 points, but 70? Pretty much a must take.

Tyranids - Gargoyles

For 8 points you get a Termagant that also works like jump infantry, and gains almost-but-not-quite 3rd edition rending. For 2 more points you can give them poison (4+) and Furious Charge.

35 point Rhinos for Chaos Space Marines.

Pretty much mandatory for every single troop choice we have. Much needed mobility, metal bawkses protection, cover, strategic terrain, 2 firing points for Melta/Plasma pew pew, target saturation, tank shock.

For the price of 2 piddly CSM.

Otherwise our Spartan DP (with only Wings) is a steal for 130 points.

Though I've not really done any working out on which unit in the Ork codex is the most point efficient, I do know my opponents constantly remark with disdain how cheap Killa Kanz are. 35 points for a walker with dreadnought close combat weapons make's them frown. Trukks get the same treatment, but to a lesser extent.

The god-damn Vendetta.

Big Mek with KFF 85pts of goodness and useable so many ways

Death Cult Assassins for the Grey Knights

Warwalkers for Eldar. For 180 points I get three walkers with the ability to put out 24 S6 shots a turn?! O_O

Amanax wrote:Warwalkers for Eldar. For 180 points I get three walkers with the ability to put out 24 S6 shots a turn?! O_O

Hmm maybe I should buy more war walkers!

I do have 3 fire prisms and 2 falcons though. If long-ranged anti-tank was not so necessary... i guess in comparison to 1 fire prism you get a truckload more shots and WH40k is about rolling as many dice as possible

Lemartes is terrible, as is Celestine. Terminators may be good, but they're in no way must take or points efficient.

For IG, I'd say the Manticore. Str 10 Large Blasts are always helpful.

Marshal Laeroth wrote:Without a doubt, it has to be the 70 point Land Speeder Typhoons for the Black Templars. They are great at 90 points, but 70? Pretty much a must take.

I was going to say this too, but then I realized that there's something even better: Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds. 50 points for army-wide Preferred Enemy: You and your family?!

Irdiumstern wrote:Lemartes is terrible, as is Celestine. Terminators may be good, but they're in no way must take or points efficient.

For IG, I'd say the Manticore. Str 10 Large Blasts are always helpful.

Right, TH/SS Terminators aren't cost efficient and Lemartes/Celestine is bad. Got it. In other news, stocks are up, unemployment is down and the UN has just declared world peace forever.

One of the most point efficient units IMO is a 10 man GK Strike Squad with Psybolt ammo.

For 22 points per model you get a unit with Force Weapons, S5 storm bolters, 3+ Save, Frak Krak and Psyk out Grenades.

They can be Strength 5 after psy test can cause deepstikers to misshap and can deepstrike themselves.

Thats really good!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amanax wrote:Death Cult Assassins for the Grey Knights

Warwalkers for Eldar. For 180 points I get three walkers with the ability to put out 24 S6 shots a turn?! O_O

I've always equiped my Warwalkers with Shuriken Cannons rather than Scatter lasers. That way they're only 120 points. Yes they have less range and 1 less shot but as they cost a 3rd of the points of a scatter laser so i went that way.

Chimeras, vendettas and veterans

All three are so points efficient I feel bad for my opponents, sometimes

Psybolt ammo on Psyrifle Dread - 5 points people!!
Jacobus looks amazing value too

I'll do the codex I knwo best and highlight the best points cost per slot... orks get some good deals

HQ
BigMek w/ KFF - 85 points for 4+ cover on vehicles and 5+ for all other units very good deal to make sure the ladz get up close where they want to be

Elite
Mega-nob - 40 points, not out strongest unit but seeing as a regular nob with a power klaw is 45 points and has a 6+ save, instead you get a 2+ save, a powerklaw and TL shoota all for a discount... downside is slow and purposful, but good thing they can take a battlewagon

Troop - tie

ork boy - at 6 points toughness 4 and 2 base attacks it is really hard to beat them point for point effectivness, 30boys plus nob pk and bp is only 220 .. thats alot of green

the reason it is a tie is cheap little objective takers

gretchin - 3 points, they suck ... period they only claim objectives, but for 40 points you get 11 models to daisy chain in unit coherency between objectives and people usually forget abotu em and don't bother to attack them as its a waste of shots

Fast attack

rokkit buggies - 35 points each for fast AV10 vehicle squadrons ... sure they are open topped but its alot of rokkits goping out and if the opponet is pushign shots at them the majority of your points ar ebeing left alone as they deal with this cheap little threat... adn if ignored thats 3 TL rokkits going off assuming you take max squad size , lots of cans opened (or MEQ split apart with no armour save)

Heavy support is rough killa kanz are hard to beat points wise, big gunz have better BS than most ork stuff and is dirt cheap ... btu the nod in my mind goes to the...

BattleWagon- AV14 front, 12 sides, range of options all for a bargin price (pioints wise.. the models are pretty expensive). as i can't give individual points costs here's hwo I usually run am and cost. wagon w/ deffrolla, red paint job, 2 big shoootas, and armour plates- lots of upgrades and clocks in at 135 points. deffrolla's D6 str 10 hits before DoG and D6 after should they choose to (which hits even if DoG sucsessful) against other vehicles you have a good chance to do somethign to even a land raider/monolith. with a 20 model capacity its a real bargin imo

G00fySmiley wrote:I'll do the codex I knwo best and highlight the best points cost per slot... orks get some good deals

HQ
BigMek w/ KFF - 85 points for 4+ cover on vehicles and 5+ for all other units very good deal to make sure the ladz get up close where they want to be

Blugh I hate that rule.

Anytime i see it used with a Kan wall i wish i was allowed to use my Eldar Cobra to kill them all in one shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

G00fySmiley wrote:
BattleWagon- against other vehicles you have a good chance to do somethign to even a land raider/monolith. with a 20 model capacity its a real bargin imo

The monolith would get a 3+ save however due to being a skimmer, hard to imagine it dodging really though.

Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

DarknessEternal wrote:Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

Yes I often find a character that makes my DC re-roll wound and hits, has a MC Power Weapon, Jump Pack, can be S6 I6 very useless.

/sarcasm.

-Loki- wrote:Tyranids - Gargoyles

For 8 points you get a Termagant that also works like jump infantry, and gains almost-but-not-quite 3rd edition rending. For 2 more points you can give them poison (4+) and Furious Charge.

6 points, 8 points with all the trimmings. So even better.

I like the scout sentinel. Yeah, its only av10, but you get to move, shoot 3 s6 shots, and can tarpit. Not to mention outflanking. All for only 35 points.

Valkyrie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

Yes I often find a character that makes my DC re-roll wound and hits, has a MC Power Weapon, Jump Pack, can be S6 I6 very useless.

/sarcasm.

He makes you take jump packs for the entire Death Company. Which is HORRIBLY over-priced. You pay 75% more to make them easier to kill and harder to control. The re-rolls can be achieved better with either a chappy or reclusiarch. Any smart opponent will have no problem with a Lemartes DC (unless it's because they're laughing too hard at you taking him).

I can only speak of the Codex's that I have known well. Some codex's have multiple 'awesome buys', so Its hard to pick one.

Eldar
Fire Dragon
10 points is the standard price for a melta gun. That means, for 6 points your paying for a aspect warrior statline.

Banshees
Like the fire dragon, most armies pay 10 points for a single power weapon. For 6 points your getting the shuriken pistol, banshee mask, fleet, and aspect warrior statline.
This is now overshadowed by the death cult assassins, which have a higher STR and more attacks and invlun save.

Eldrad
For just over 200 points, he brings three psychic powers per turn to the table, and runes of warding and witnessing and all four powers.
If you tried to buy all the gear that Eldrad comes with on a vanilla farseer, it would be nearly expensive as Eldrad. Eldrad gets all that gear, with the ability to use an extra power each turn, a higher toughness, and a better save.

Codes : Marines
TH/SS Termies
Pound for pound, TH/SS termies pound other CC into the ground.

Grey Knights
Psydread Rifleman
I honestly believe this was an 'oops' moment on the developers. I cannot think that they would have a single model 4 STR 8 shots for as cheap as they did.

Death Kult Assassain
As cheap as a basic CSM and would tear the CSM apart in assault. Two power weapons, a higher init than marine characters, and an 5++ save is an awesome buy.

Imperial Guard
Vendetta
I believe this model was made as cheaply as it is because GW wanted to sell the model. 3 TL LC, transport ability, scout, AV 12 for roughly the same cost as a AC/LC predator.

Chimara Vet Squad
Point for point, this squad delivers a ton of firepower with a good BS for a low cost. Equip with 3 PG to have your squad toss out 6 MEQ killing shots from a cheap AV 12 shell.

Space Wolves
Long Fangs
There is a reason that you see them in so many lists. They are amazingly cheap for what they deliver. The only comparable model would be the GK psy-dread.

Blood Angles
Assault Razorback Squad
Its incredible how cheap this unit is for what it delivers. As an added bonus, the razorback is fast, allowing the BA to move 6" and fire both the las and plas as the same target, giving 3 AP 2 shots at targets within 12". A scary, overcheap unit.

Dark Eldar
Trueborn
Putting 4 blasters in a venom for that cost is just sick.

Ravagers
For a cheap cost you can move 12" and fire 3 dark lances/disengrators. What a great value.

Orks
Da Boy
6 points is very cheap for what the ork boy provides. GW made the orks cheap to encourage people to buy lots of them, and it worked.

KFF
In the right army (BW spam), this is a huge advantage. It allows the ork player to doubles the survivability of his transports, increasing the chances of getting those boys in CC

Orks: Toss up between boys and kans. 6 pt combat specialists vs rhino armored jr dreadnoughts with a str 8 ap3 rokkit for the same cost as a rhino.
BA: Razorbacks after the discount of taking off your jump packs, or a properly equipped storm raven.
SW: Grey hunters, long fangs, and thunder cav. Yea thunder cav are a million points, but whenever I play against them they kill 60% or more of my army and thats efficient.
Necrons: Monolith, Destroyers
CSM: Berserkers, rhinos.
GK: Purifiers, cheap and quite a bit over powered to be honest. Cleansing flame, power weapons/force weapons/halberds, and psylencer canons or whatever those are called are just excessive for what you pay.
DE: Venoms and ravagers and raiders, 2 of the three are way cheaper than LR but kill LR fairly easily.
Nids: Doom of Malantai

touche

for the cheapness and value of that one model you have to take some pretty overpriced troops to go with it. There's something sexy about running 20 man death company with lemartes... flying death angels... but then for that price it'd be the only unit you're running lol

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

Yes I often find a character that makes my DC re-roll wound and hits, has a MC Power Weapon, Jump Pack, can be S6 I6 very useless.

/sarcasm.

He makes you take jump packs for the entire Death Company. Which is HORRIBLY over-priced. You pay 75% more to make them easier to kill and harder to control. The re-rolls can be achieved better with either a chappy or reclusiarch. Any smart opponent will have no problem with a Lemartes DC (unless it's because they're laughing too hard at you taking him).

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

Yes I often find a character that makes my DC re-roll wound and hits, has a MC Power Weapon, Jump Pack, can be S6 I6 very useless.

/sarcasm.

He makes you take jump packs for the entire Death Company. Which is HORRIBLY over-priced. You pay 75% more to make them easier to kill and harder to control. The re-rolls can be achieved better with either a chappy or reclusiarch. Any smart opponent will have no problem with a Lemartes DC (unless it's because they're laughing too hard at you taking him).

Uhh no, you don't have to take Jump Packs. You should if you're taking him, but you're not compelled to.

Valkyrie wrote:
Uhh no, you don't have to take Jump Packs. You should if you're taking him, but you're not compelled to.

Doesn't that make it harder to put Lemartes and the DC into a rhino or razorback? Because of Lemartes jetpack, it's either jumpslog or 5 in a Storm Raven...

do those limitations dilute the value, points wise, of lemartes?

Valkyrie wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

Yes I often find a character that makes my DC re-roll wound and hits, has a MC Power Weapon, Jump Pack, can be S6 I6 very useless.

/sarcasm.

He makes you take jump packs for the entire Death Company. Which is HORRIBLY over-priced. You pay 75% more to make them easier to kill and harder to control. The re-rolls can be achieved better with either a chappy or reclusiarch. Any smart opponent will have no problem with a Lemartes DC (unless it's because they're laughing too hard at you taking him).

Uhh no, you don't have to take Jump Packs. You should if you're taking him, but you're not compelled to.

So you are walking them? Yeah, you should buy them jump packs... doing anything else is like buying a motorcycle helmet and leathers and not having a motorcycle.

My contribution is DE: Beast packs. for 280 pts you get 21 models with 50 wounds, a huge number of attacks (some with rending) in a unit that also has invul save soaking models and beast movement. You can customize them to lower points and less footprint depending on the list. But think about how much damage 3 full units for less than 900 pts could do.... All in a FOC that DE don't really have much competition in. If it didn't cost 1200 bucks to field that, I would in a heartbeat.

obsidianaura wrote:One of the most point efficient units IMO is a 10 man GK Strike Squad with Psybolt ammo.

For 22 points per model you get a unit with Force Weapons, S5 storm bolters, 3+ Save, Frak Krak and Psyk out Grenades.

They can be Strength 5 after psy test can cause deepstikers to misshap and can deepstrike themselves.

Thats really good!

Agreed. DCA are great and all, but they only do one thing well and then get shot to pieces. GK Strike Squads can shoot other things to pieces and aren't terrible in CC either.

Shoota boyz

Valkyrie wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Lemartes? That guy should be on the list of incredibly overpriced and near useless list.

Yes I often find a character that makes my DC re-roll wound and hits, has a MC Power Weapon, Jump Pack, can be S6 I6 very useless.

/sarcasm.

So you get to re-roll to hit and to wound against the unit your opponent wants you to charge(likely a suicide unit to begin with); congrats.

Either your usual opponents don't know how to kite Rage units, or you are cheating if you are getting to use this ability on your own terms.

Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

No Lemartes is neither cost effective, nor particularly useful(he is the BA version of Lukas the Trickster)

Of the armies I play:

IG: Vendetta, or Valk w/rocket pods, Also Hydra, Manticore, or Bassie

Nilla Marines: Chaplain Cassius, MM/HF or Ass-cann/SB Dread, Masyer of the Forge W/C-Beamer, or LRC w/MM+SB

SW: WGBL w/Mark, SS, Saga of the Warrior Born, and WT necklace(maybe add in a WTT), GH, Rune Preist, Lone Wolf W/Mark, or Missile long fangs.

Orks: Lootas, Burnas, KFF BM, Boom-wagon(only with proper target saturation), or a Boyz Mob.

Orks:

shoota boys and big mek KFF

GK dread with psybolt

And purifers with psycannons. I6 force weapons ok they are more expensive then basic troops but

if you equip normal guys with halberds they are 25 and for 26 you get 1 more attack per guy the cleansing fire power and the ability to take 2 psycannons.

Also GK rhino with the power to ignore stun and shaken is amazing.

BA

Assualt squads in razorbacks. more attacks in a fast tank that can shoot alot of S7 and S9 shoots

SW

Grey hunters get so many special abilities compared to normal marines for no more points.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No Lemartes is neither cost effective, nor particularly useful(he is the BA version of Lukas the Trickster)

To be fair, Lukas is still better than Lemartes, although he is far from cost effective (he typically costs more points than the squad he's with... when you could be running 2 Grey Hunter squads instead).

Daemons: Fiends or Flamers

Tau: While not a unit, I think we need to bring up the Disruption Pod for the Tau.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:Lemartes is terrible, as is Celestine. Terminators may be good, but they're in no way must take or points efficient.

For IG, I'd say the Manticore. Str 10 Large Blasts are always helpful.

Right, TH/SS Terminators aren't cost efficient and Lemartes/Celestine is bad. Got it. In other news, stocks are up, unemployment is down and the UN has just declared world peace forever.

Because TH/SS Terminators are the same thing as Terminators. Reading Comprehension. Celestine is pretty much crap, and Lemartes allows you to make a rage squad run after someone with slightly more murderous intent. Neither is point efficient and while Lemartes may be useful to make a highly killy squad even more ridiculously killy, he also makes a ridiculously overpriced squad more expensive.

Also, how about Farseers? Best force multiplier in the entire game right there.

I think Bloodcrushers are a steal at 40 pts. WS5, S5, T5, A3, W2, 3+/5++ with power weapons and Furious Charge? Yes, please.

30 pts/Fiend is also great. If they were a FA option, I'd be up to my eyeballs in them.

Furioso dreadnought with blood talons. AV13, WS6 with rerollable wounds and the potential for infinite attacks for 125 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, psychotroke grenades for Grey Knights. Seriously, Matt Ward needs to be punched in the balls so he knows how the rest of us feel.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

Irdiumstern wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:Lemartes is terrible, as is Celestine. Terminators may be good, but they're in no way must take or points efficient.

For IG, I'd say the Manticore. Str 10 Large Blasts are always helpful.

Right, TH/SS Terminators aren't cost efficient and Lemartes/Celestine is bad. Got it. In other news, stocks are up, unemployment is down and the UN has just declared world peace forever.

Because TH/SS Terminators are the same thing as Terminators. Reading Comprehension. Celestine is pretty much crap, and Lemartes allows you to make a rage squad run after someone with slightly more murderous intent. Neither is point efficient and while Lemartes may be useful to make a highly killy squad even more ridiculously killy, he also makes a ridiculously overpriced squad more expensive.

Also, how about Farseers? Best force multiplier in the entire game right there.

Back at you. The only one to mention Terminators before you, and thus the post which you indirectly referenced in your post, was the OP saying that Vanilla Terminators were the best unit in the 'dex. It's not that long of a stretch to figure that it's not tactical Terminators the OP is talking about, is it?

How is Celestine bad? She's like a Duracell bunny: she keeps on going, no matter what happens to her.

G00fySmiley wrote:
HQ
BigMek w/ KFF - 85 points for 4+ cover on vehicles and 5+ for all other units very good deal to make sure the ladz get up close where they want to be

Tyranids get their own BETTER version of the KFF on the Venomthrope for cheaper than we do. Not only does it give a cover save, but it also makes everything take dangerous terrain tests. On top of that, the Venomthrope is much better in CC than the Big Mek is. The Big Mek is an awesome unit, don't get me wrong... but I don't think they're a good deal points-wise.

For Orks, the basic Ork Boy is an awesome, cheap unit.

When I see the points cost for everything in the Space Wolves codex it makes me cry. It seems like EVERYTHING they have is cheaper / better than what everyone else gets.

The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

rigeld2 wrote:The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

Exactly, the thing that makes the KFF Mek so darn resilient is that he's in a vehicle with AV14 in the front. Sure, you can flank it and shoot it, but it takes way more effort.

Marshal Laeroth wrote:Without a doubt, it has to be the 70 point Land Speeder Typhoons for the Black Templars. They are great at 90 points, but 70? Pretty much a must take.

Wow, didn't know BT's get them that cheap, I've had the 90 pt SM ones bite me in the butt so many times they are target priority 1 when they show up.

It's that 3x HB shots and 2x Frag missiles after moving 12" that makes my Orks into goo :(

Orks - Deffcoppa's if you go first for 60ish points you get an easy first turn assault against a vehicle that did not move. Take 3 squads of one and take out most of their armour on turn one. Plus they now have to deal with the 60 point unit in their face while leaving the rest of your army alone.

EDIT:

LeMartes - A few things to keep in mind. He does not require the rest of the unit to take jump packs. You can take him plus 3-10 DC and they all fit in a Storm Raven. Since most people take DC with a Chaplin, LeMartes is only an Extra 50pts. He has better stats, benefits from FNP which the Chaplin does not, and has FC which the Chaplin does not.

Also LeMartes canNOT to targeted in Close combat with the Chaplin can be. So when comparing him to a Chaplin he is the better unit.

jbunny wrote:So when comparing him to a Chaplin he is the better unit.

Invalid assumptions. Chaplains aren't inherently tied to Death Company. Lemartes is.

severedblue wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

So you made a thread about the most point efficient Units and not know the price of a unit?

But i do believe Lemates is a little expensive.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

Exactly, the thing that makes the KFF Mek so darn resilient is that he's in a vehicle with AV14 in the front. Sure, you can flank it and shoot it, but it takes way more effort.

Not to mention that it competes with Zoanthropes and Hive Guard.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The V-thrope is so easy to kill it's not even funny.

Exactly, the thing that makes the KFF Mek so darn resilient is that he's in a vehicle with AV14 in the front. Sure, you can flank it and shoot it, but it takes way more effort.

agreed, or in a greentide army he's attached to 30 T4 models to take shooting wounds for him

severedblue wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

This would explain why you'd think he was cost-effective. lol

Yes, he's 150.

Valkyrie wrote:
Uhh no, you don't have to take Jump Packs. You should if you're taking him, but you're not compelled to.

Yeah... if someone took Lemmy and just left the DC on foot it would be even MORE laugh inducing, not less. Really he doesn't have much of anything that a regular Chappy or Reclusiarch won't give them without the drawbacks...for less points.

IG

Vendetta - most point efficient and best unit in the codex.

Marbo - cheap and good...too bad he isn't really used much.

severedblue wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also you are talking about a 150 point Character tin a unit that is already staggeringly expensive; I would personally rather take another 8-man assault squad with Infernus pistol on a random trooper and a Sgt with P-fist+Infernus for the same cost as the base 3 man, non-JI DC+Lemartes, or a full Assault squad with 3 infernus pistols(2 on troopers, 1 on the SGt) and a t-hammer+Combat Shield instead of the 3 naked DC with Jump packs and Lemartes(Cost for the first example is 1 point less, cost for the second is exactly the same).

Are you sure Lemartes is 150 points? I thought he was a third that price (don't have my codex on me)

As slave confirmed, yes I am sure; I rarely post anything without double-checking in the relevant rulebook(I get myself into trouble when I do otherwise, as I generally post on any/every armylist; of course my stubborn refusal to get the stealth re-print of the necron codex still makes some remarks on that book erroneous, which is why I always make it a point to ask if a given unit/rule was changed and give my opinion based on the first printing with a caveat).

For the most part I've been beaten to the punch, but I'm going to throw my two cents in for the codices I play:

SW: Grey Hunters with Long Fangs a VERY close second. GH get the nod because they are scoring, and still better than some armies' elites options.

GK: I have to give it to the Crusader. A storm shield for half the points Space Wolves play, and a body to go with it...oh, wait, they also have a POWER WEAPON? Really Mat?

DE: Trueborn with blasters in a venom. Scary. They are not the cheapest anti-tank option, but they are the best.

Daemons: I have to give it to the Flamers first, then the fiends. The Bloodletters are great, but they are much, much less efficient when you aren't facing MEQ. Flamers and Fiends do just about as well against MEQ as they do GEQ and even vehicles. A fiend with Unholy Might has a chance to penetrate a land raider. Well, six chances on the charge.

3 Kans with Grotzookas. 6 S6 ap5 small blast templates at BS3.

Blood Angles: Sanguinary Priest. 65 points for a 6" FnP bubble? On MEQ? Bull gak.

Daemons: Fiends. 6 of them run over most infantry units for less than the points of a unit of Termies, and they can also move up to 24" a turn.

CSM: Basic Rhino w/Havoc Launcher or Plague Marines.

DE: 2x Splinter Cannon Venom. Oh look, 12 shots a turn from across the board, and a small profile for abusing cover saves, and a 5+ Invuln, and the abilty to turboboost? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat.

Eldar: 3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers. 180 points for a mobile terrain piece that throws out 24 S6 shots a turn, and can be guided? Hell yeah.

GK: Purifiers. Halberds, Cleansing Flame and Psycannons. That is all.

Guard: Meltavets. Or Marbo.

Crons: Eh. Probably Destroyers.

Orks: KFF Mek. Sure, not as good as a Sanguinary Priest, but stick it in a Battlewagon or take 2 in a Green Tide list and suddenly it's a nightmare to kill them all. Shoota Boyz are also easily the single most cost-effective troop unit in the game.

SoB: I have absolutely no idea because I haven't even bothered to read the codex.

Space Marines: TH/SS Termies. Vulkan and Null Zone means everything they touch dies.

Space Wolves: Long Fangs. No discussion points necessary.

Tau: Eh...

Nids: Probably either the Tervigon or Hive Guard since they're staples in most comp Nids lists (comp Nids, lol)

Psy-riflemen Dreads are undercosted by about 15-20 points. Purifiers by 3-5 ea and if everyone else pays 15 for a Plasma Gun they should be paying at least 20 for a Psycannon.

Hydras are definitely undercosted by about 10 points.

Grey Hunters are undercosted, should be 16 ea. Long Fangs are drastically undercosted. Full unit with MLs should be ~30 points more. Conversely TH/SS combo on WG Terminators is overpriced by 15-20 points. Wonder why you don't see WG Hammernators ever...

Lash Sorcerors. 125? 135 would be more appropriate.

DA and BT Typhoons, way undercosted but it's an old book. Meh.

Kanz are idiotically undercosted...bump them 15 pts each, reduce to AV10, or to AV11 open topped.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Yeah... if someone took Lemmy and just left the DC on foot it would be even MORE laugh inducing, not less. Really he doesn't have much of anything that a regular Chappy or Reclusiarch won't give them without the drawbacks...for less points.

I think this is the biggest crux of the argument.

For lemartes you get a beast on the charge, but his real usefulness begins when he takes a wound.
At +20 points more than a reclusiarch you give up a wound, an attack, and take +1 initiative and Furious Charge, comparatively.

For the points you pay for lemartes you could be giving the reclusiarch a plasma pistol, infernus pistol, or power fist (which i think is the weakest option here as he already comes with a power weapon and you could always throw the fist on a DC for the same points). Additionally, with 1 more power weapon attack and one more wound, i think you get a more consistent performance out of the reclusiarch than you do lemartes, despite how awesome he is. Lastly, the Reclusiarch has freedom in the groups he can attach to, whereas lemartes is bound to his brothers in black.

Tau - erm...hhmmmmm...

I think someone said it before but our best priced unit isn't even a unit. It's a piece of gakking wargear. Albeit a very VERY good one for 5 pts. Saved my bacon many times :-)

Kroot maybe? :-S I love fielding these buggers and they always do really well. 10 Kroot and 5 hounds for 100 points with outflank/infiltrate. Just pray your board has trees on it though!
I use two squads of these in that config and it always gives opponents something to think about. Even if they are just diversionary.

I managed to bring both squads on the same side of the board once and my opponent had to redirect a fair whack of his force to deal with them leaving me to go on the offensive.

STILL - We are massively overpriced on everything else! :(

Mephiston. /thread

Rage all you want, you know it's true. Sure, he's worth ~200, but if he's not raking back in >1000 pts per game, you're using him wrong. That's a 500% pt payback. Amazing investment.

Guard: Vendetta. Perfectly suited to a vehicle-saturated game...

Orks: Boyz. Duh. 6pts of win!

Blood Angels: Sanguinary Priests. I would pay 100pts for them...

Tyranids: Nothing really underpriced... maybe tervis, but they are random...

Dark Eldar: Venoms.

Nids got Gargoyles. I can't really argue with i. For barely anything, you get a jump unit with a 4+ wound (Poison) and does well at causing mayhem.

Chaos got Rhinos. Major thing is getting the boys across the field, and since Chaos don't have Drop pods, like their brethren, a simple rhino is amazing for this purpose.

Takeshishin wrote:Nids got Gargoyles. I can't really argue with i. For barely anything, you get a jump unit with a 4+ wound (Poison) and does well at causing mayhem.

Chaos got Rhinos. Major thing is getting the boys across the field, and since Chaos don't have Drop pods, like their brethren, a simple rhino is amazing for this purpose.

True on the Tyranid note. Then again, I would call them "good value" rather than underpriced. Underpriced, to me, indicates a unit that is a complete auto-include, that can function in any list. (See Space Wolves and Long Fangs, or any of my other examples)

labmouse42 wrote:I can only speak of the Codex's that I have known well. Some codex's have multiple 'awesome buys', so Its hard to pick one.

Eldar
Fire Dragon
10 points is the standard price for a melta gun. That means, for 6 points your paying for a aspect warrior statline.

Banshees
Like the fire dragon, most armies pay 10 points for a single power weapon. For 6 points your getting the shuriken pistol, banshee mask, fleet, and aspect warrior statline.
This is now overshadowed by the death cult assassins, which have a higher STR and more attacks and invlun save.

Eldrad
For just over 200 points, he brings three psychic powers per turn to the table, and runes of warding and witnessing and all four powers.
If you tried to buy all the gear that Eldrad comes with on a vanilla farseer, it would be nearly expensive as Eldrad. Eldrad gets all that gear, with the ability to use an extra power each turn, a higher toughness, and a better save.

Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

Banshees are a bargain on paper, but on the table top they aren't all that great. The rest of the codex has a problem supporting their abilities, from a lack of CC-oriented troop choices worth their salt to limited or no ability to properly transport the Banshees. Walking the Banshees instead become walking Ming Vases. As long as the Craftworlders lack open-topped transports or assault vehicles, the Banshees will remain significantly overpriced, unless they are given some other form of protection. AP4 weapons are excessively common.

Eldrad is very good, yes. Farseers in general have translated decently to the new edition, even though their psychic potency from fluff do not translate well to the game table.

I'm gonna think outside the box here and say Chimeras for IG, the only army I have extensive experience with.

For 55 points, you get two heavy weapons, transport capacity, and five fire points, especially useful when you're usually gonna be carrying vet squads kitted out with three SWs.

Mahtamori wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:I can only speak of the Codex's that I have known well. Some codex's have multiple 'awesome buys', so Its hard to pick one.

Eldar
Fire Dragon
10 points is the standard price for a melta gun. That means, for 6 points your paying for a aspect warrior statline.

Banshees
Like the fire dragon, most armies pay 10 points for a single power weapon. For 6 points your getting the shuriken pistol, banshee mask, fleet, and aspect warrior statline.
This is now overshadowed by the death cult assassins, which have a higher STR and more attacks and invlun save.

Eldrad
For just over 200 points, he brings three psychic powers per turn to the table, and runes of warding and witnessing and all four powers.
If you tried to buy all the gear that Eldrad comes with on a vanilla farseer, it would be nearly expensive as Eldrad. Eldrad gets all that gear, with the ability to use an extra power each turn, a higher toughness, and a better save.

Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

.

That depends on how lucky your Damage rolls go. It sucks to get a Pen and then roll a one on the chart. Having multiple gives a higher chance to actually destroy the vehicle.

Mahtamori wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:I can only speak of the Codex's that I have known well. Some codex's have multiple 'awesome buys', so Its hard to pick one.

Eldar
Fire Dragon
10 points is the standard price for a melta gun. That means, for 6 points your paying for a aspect warrior statline.

Banshees
Like the fire dragon, most armies pay 10 points for a single power weapon. For 6 points your getting the shuriken pistol, banshee mask, fleet, and aspect warrior statline.
This is now overshadowed by the death cult assassins, which have a higher STR and more attacks and invlun save.

Eldrad
For just over 200 points, he brings three psychic powers per turn to the table, and runes of warding and witnessing and all four powers.
If you tried to buy all the gear that Eldrad comes with on a vanilla farseer, it would be nearly expensive as Eldrad. Eldrad gets all that gear, with the ability to use an extra power each turn, a higher toughness, and a better save.

Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with [b]only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time. [/b]

Banshees are a bargain on paper, but on the table top they aren't all that great. The rest of the codex has a problem supporting their abilities, from a lack of CC-oriented troop choices worth their salt to limited or no ability to properly transport the Banshees. Walking the Banshees instead become walking Ming Vases. As long as the Craftworlders lack open-topped transports or assault vehicles, the Banshees will remain significantly overpriced, unless they are given some other form of protection. AP4 weapons are excessively common.

Eldrad is very good, yes. Farseers in general have translated decently to the new edition, even though their psychic potency from fluff do not translate well to the game table.

Actually that is quite far from the thruth. A BS4 melta has a ~21% chance of destroying a LR

Mahtamori wrote:Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

The problem is that a single MG has only a ~1/3 chance of destroying AV 14 on shooting. 5 of them greatly improves the chances of getting your desired result. As such, I would say that 5 of them are a good number to have in a squad.

Also, remember the other good use of dragons. They are fantastic for killing MCs and Mephistons.

I think point-for-point the genestealer is the best unit in the tyranid codex.
Gargoyles are tough to beat 6 points gets you a jump troop with a guardsman stat line. However, against MEQ style armies and hordes, you really have to take a decent swarm in order for their true effectiveness to show.

Really, I'd spend those points on more genestealers.

Gargoyles are fun, but stealers have won me games.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Mephiston. /thread

Rage all you want, you know it's true. Sure, he's worth ~200, but if he's not raking back in >1000 pts per game, you're using him wrong. That's a 500% pt payback. Amazing investment.

I do enjoy using Mephiston. How do you run him to such an effect? Do you give him a storm-raven? What sorts of targets do you send him after?

Mephiston is good, but hes not that god-like.
* I've tank shocked him, watching him fail his leadership, then walked him off the board.
* I've used plasma guns to down him
* I've seen him blow himself up on runes of warding
Sure hes good, but hes not a better value than the assault-razorback BA squad.

labmouse42 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

The problem is that a single MG has only a ~1/3 chance of destroying AV 14 on shooting. 5 of them greatly improves the chances of getting your desired result. As such, I would say that 5 of them are a good number to have in a squad.

No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).


Back on topic, I think that the Hades Breaching Drill from Imperial Armor's Death Korps of Krieg codex is insanely undercosted. 50 points gets you a Deep Striking tank with a melta cannon, and your Elites get to Deep Strike in the same spot on your next turn, no reserve rolls needed!

Teln wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Fire Dragons really are the Codex' strong point, provided they are ferried inside a Wave Serpent, of course.
Fire Dragons are a bargain when compared model for model, however, it's not often an optimal configuration having a unit armed with only melta weapons. Essentially, they pay some 2 points less per melta weapon by not having a decent use outside this area. Keep in mind that it only takes a single melta to destroy a Land Raider, shooting 5 is overkill most of the time.

The problem is that a single MG has only a ~1/3 chance of destroying AV 14 on shooting. 5 of them greatly improves the chances of getting your desired result. As such, I would say that 5 of them are a good number to have in a squad.

No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).

You have to hit and pen too...

Teln wrote:No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).!

How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss? -- Verbal

Just saying that a penetrating shot has a 50% of destruction is a gross underestimation of how difficult it is to destroy vehicles.
What if the melta gun misses? What is the penetration roll fails? Its a pretty hard calculation to get.
Last year I wrote a simulator that would run 100,000 shots on a target to determine the odds of destroying via the law of large averages. I just checked and a BS 4 MM has a ~21.01% of destroying AV 14 with a ~48% of delievering an 'effect' on the target (shaken, stunned, immobolized, destroyed, explode, weapon destroyed).

In the 5th edition vehicles are extremely tough to destroy, which is why the game has moved to a 'mech game'. Is this bad? Well, it means GW sells more models, which is what they are all for.

labmouse42 wrote:

Teln wrote:No, Meltaguns have a 50% chance to destroy an LR on a piercing hit, because they're AP1. However, one should keep in mind that that's still a 50% chance of failing to destroy the LR, so there's really no such thing as Enuff Dakka when shooting at AV14 (or anything else, for that matter).!

How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss? -- Verbal

Just saying that a penetrating shot has a 50% of destruction is a gross underestimation of how difficult it is to destroy vehicles.
What if the melta gun misses? What is the penetration roll fails? Its a pretty hard calculation to get.
Last year I wrote a simulator that would run 100,000 shots on a target to determine the odds of destroying via the law of large averages. I just checked and a BS 4 MM has a ~21.01% of destroying AV 14 with a ~48% of delievering an 'effect' on the target (shaken, stunned, immobolized, destroyed, explode, weapon destroyed).

In the 5th edition vehicles are extremely tough to destroy, which is why the game has moved to a 'mech game'. Is this bad? Well, it means GW sells more models, which is what they are all for.

What I was saying in my last post was that a meltagun has a 50% chance to destroy a Land Raider when it has already gotten a piercing hit. I never meant to imply that hitting and penetrating weren't issues, and if anyone got that impression then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

SM: Dakka pred! TH/SS are great and are a close second. But the dakka pred is more versatile.
BA: Assault squads with meltagun in a TL HF razorback.
Tau: ...nothing is really cheap. I do think the Shas'el is pretty good for the cost due to his diversity and his ability to play multiple roles in my army (wound soaker, force multiplier etc).
DE: Venoms, hands down.
IG: Chimera
Orks: KFF
Chaos: Deamon prince or rhino
Eldar: Far seer perhaps?

New SoB: Seraphim.But the WD codex is a mess and uneven.
DE: Venoms
Eldar: Fire Dragons

Broadside Battlesuits.

the chimera is definitely the most point efficient unit in the IG codex, perhaps even the entire game.

IG: Rough Riders. S5 I5 Powerweapons on the charge (yeah only once but that's all you need) for only 8pts!
SM: Terminators.
Necrons: Tombspider: 55pts can give you T6, 5W unit with a 3+ cover save as long as the scarab is in area terrain. If you kill the scarab, he just makes another.
Orks: Waagh Banner. 15pts = God Mode.
Eldar: Eldrad. Replaces two Seers for the price of one.

As a beginning player, this thread is full of great information!

Anpu-adom wrote:As a beginning player, this thread is full of great information!

Yes I am very happy to have started this thread, for the insight and the corrections. I wonder how much it will change with codex creep,

new SoB codex and new Necron Codex, hopefully both good additions.



I want sisters in Valkyries lol. Now that would be cool.

Dark Eldar Venoms. For 55pts you get one mean infantry shredding vehicle. with a 5++

It seems like the Guard in general are cheap and effective.

For BA, Assault Squads.

Buy a 5 man assault squad, get a free TL lascannon on your razorback!

The Hydra is a great deal for what it gives you.

War Walkers are dirt cheap, even having to buy a pair of guns. Vypers are a little more but IMO their awesome mobility makes up for it (and being in the grossly underused FA slot). Eldrad is a good bargain considering the gear you'd have to buy to get close to his capabilities. Fire Dragons and Banshees are relatively cheap, but they are also fragile and wave serpents are certainly not cheap. Admittedly, I haven't used them much, but Autarchs seem like a good bargain as well.

Well this is easy - Henchmen Warbands.

Warrior Acolytes (6), 6 x Storm Bolter, 3 x Meltagun, Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition - 122
Good against mech, good against horde and gives you cheap, reliable armour saturation.

Warrior Acolytes (12), 12 x Storm Bolter - 84
24 Storm Bolters shots for 84 points, not bad!

Psykers (4) - 40
A S6 Ap3 large blast for 40 points.

A Musketeer wrote:Dark Eldar Venoms. For 55pts you get one mean infantry shredding vehicle. with a 5++

This is not the correct cost.

Hmmm, for the Codexes I own...

TYRANIDS:

Gargoyle: 6 points per guy, jump infantry, 4+ poisoned for one extra point and autowound on to hit rolls of 6. Insane.

Tervigon: 160 points for a 6 wound MC is good enough. Add in the fact it can create more scoring units and be a scoring unit itself, along with give other creatures FNP for 15 extra and its a must take.

DARK ELDAR:

Ravager: 3 Lances on an awesome skimmer platform that is fairly cheap. This thing is devastating against any mech army.

Raider: 60 points for a fast skimmer DT that has a lance weapon and transport capacity of 10, and add just 10 points and it gets a 5+ invul save. Great stuff.

THousand Son Rubric Marines...

AP3 bolters that can be fired at 24 inches or two shots at 12 regardless of movement
Sorceror with potential dangerous psychic powers and a force weapon
3+ armor, 4+ invuln
Awesome color scheme
Not lobotomized
Dont smell funny or have pot-bellies
dont get aroused from shooting stuff with high frequency weapons
etc.

the other trade off is a full unit of flamers of tzeentch
35 points gets you 12 wounds on a 4 template weapons with no saves allowed, glances vehicles on a 4+ (which for anyone with math skills knows 2 glancing 6 hits equals wrecked) that are jump infantry and have the ability to use a power that can kill a land raider
oh and a 4+ invuln save...

cheers

WarlordRob117 wrote:THousand Son Rubric Marines...

AP3 bolters that can be fired at 24 inches or two shots at 12 regardless of movement
Sorceror with potential dangerous psychic powers and a force weapon
3+ armor, 4+ invuln
Awesome color scheme
Not lobotomized
Dont smell funny or have pot-bellies
dont get aroused from shooting stuff with high frequency weapons
etc.

Thousand Sons are possibly the worst troop in the CSM codex. They cost an arm and a leg, you're forced to take an expensive and fragile sorcerer, they can't take any sort of anti-tank weaponry, and in the end they still die like a bitch to anti-infantry shooting.

Crons: Deceiver, remember that 7 man assault termi death star that cost you 350 pts? Oh, and their LR? Oh, and you cant shoot me back with your pinned sternguard vets either.

WarlordRob117 wrote:(which for anyone with math skills knows 2 glancing 6 hits equals wrecked)

You may want to read the rules on vehicle damage.

Here's my five cents:

There are so many neat units in the Tyranids dex that I have to list one from each of the FOC slots.
HQ:
The Swarmlord: For 260pts, you get a massive amount of high str hits which allow no saves. something has to be said here.
Elites:
The Doom of Malan'tai: For some people, a beast that uses psychic powers to eat the souls of your models and then heal it's self to 10 wounds is unnerving.
Troops:
Genestealers: For 14pts, you get a no-need synapse, Rending, A2-3, I6 hits. Give them scything talons, and you are re-rolling ones and are chewing through any model from any army.
Ripper swarms (Gak, most of you will think): When given spinefists AND tunnelmswarms, you have a deep striking, multi-shooty force. When used to support a trygon prime by being a meatshield, They work quite efficiently.
Fast attack:
Gargoyles: Nuff said on page 1.
Heavy support:
Trygon prime with regen: Yes, he's pricy. but how often will this thing die? And when you use tunneling rippers as backup, this guy eats through most armies.

As for the necron dex,
The Lord and the Monolith are your best friends. The lord is so versatile and the lith is just all round almost OP, even though its a whole edition behind.

For Eldar it's Fire Dragons and Howling Banshees.

16 points for a meltagun/ power weapon is awesome xD

p14tinum wrote:For Eldar it's Fire Dragons and Howling Banshees.

16 points for a meltagun/ power weapon is awesome xD

Not to mention that nifty I 10 on the banshees.

DA
Ravenwing typhoon landspeeder: 75 points and pretty good...

Deathwing: 215 points and the ability to take any standard termy equipment for free.

Eldar: Banshees as above, Fire dragons, War walkers.

The almighty wave serpent

Purifiers for GK.

Cheap and plentiful Psycannons, veteran profile, Fearless, and THE BEST horde control in the game. For 4pts more than a Strike squad marine? I'll take that, thanks

Psyflemen are also pretty ridiculous when compared to other marine Riflemen. 10pts more for str8 autocannons, the ability to completely ignore suppression and Reinforced Aegis? (I mean seriously, why the feth did they even get reinforced Aegis? )

The Hydra Flak Tank is incredibly cheap. 75 points for an AV 12 enclosed vehicle with 2x twin-linked, range 72" autocannons and a heavy bolter, all that ignore the movement saves for bikes, skimmes and jetbikes. You can even take them in squadrons of three for only 225 points as one HS slot! It simply murders every fast moving unit on the field in short order - the reason why I don't field it is simply because it is too good, and it would be mean against my friends and no fun for them.

Gargoyles compared to the 5 point gaunt, its got 2 extra abilities, and it can be pretty effective in combat with upgrades, also they are great for screens

IG GK BA and SW are all so mech heavy its stupid, which is why the Hive Guard takes the cake for me. While not the most point efficient, it is certainly our most versatile AT weapon

Olenos wrote:Gargoyles compared to the 5 point gaunt, its got 2 extra abilities, and it can be pretty effective in combat with upgrades, also they are great for screens

IG GK BA and SW are all so mech heavy its stupid, which is why the Hive Guard takes the cake for me. While not the most point efficient, it is certainly our most versatile AT weapon

When did 50pts for something as amazing as a Hive Guard get declared "inefficient"? They're well worth the points you spend on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rennoc215 wrote:Here's my five cents:

There are so many neat units in the Tyranids dex that I have to list one from each of the FOC slots.
HQ:
The Swarmlord: For 260pts, you get a massive amount of high str hits which allow no saves. something has to be said here.
Elites:
The Doom of Malan'tai: For some people, a beast that uses psychic powers to eat the souls of your models and then heal it's self to 10 wounds is unnerving.
Troops:
Genestealers: For 14pts, you get a no-need synapse, Rending, A2-3, I6 hits. Give them scything talons, and you are re-rolling ones and are chewing through any model from any army.
Ripper swarms (Gak, most of you will think): When given spinefists AND tunnelmswarms, you have a deep striking, multi-shooty force. When used to support a trygon prime by being a meatshield, They work quite efficiently.
Fast attack:
Gargoyles: Nuff said on page 1.
Heavy support:
Trygon prime with regen: Yes, he's pricy. but how often will this thing die? And when you use tunneling rippers as backup, this guy eats through most armies.

The only truly efficient units here are the Gargoyles and (arguably) Doom. Sure, the others are good (excluding Rippers...), but you pay an arm and a leg for them, and then pray that the enemy doesn't blast them away early.

I say Chimeras, Vendettas and Ork Boyz.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
When did 50pts for something as amazing as a Hive Guard get declared "inefficient"? They're well worth the points you spend on them.

I don't like paying 50 points for essentially a Missile Launcher. They're awesome because they're realistically all we've got as far as tankbusters.

rigeld2 wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
When did 50pts for something as amazing as a Hive Guard get declared "inefficient"? They're well worth the points you spend on them.

I don't like paying 50 points for essentially a Missile Launcher. They're awesome because they're realistically all we've got as far as tankbusters.

Yes, but they're also fairly difficult to kill, are competent in assault if they get charged and don't require line of sight to shoot at targets.

rigeld2 wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
When did 50pts for something as amazing as a Hive Guard get declared "inefficient"? They're well worth the points you spend on them.

I don't like paying 50 points for essentially a Missile Launcher. They're awesome because they're realistically all we've got as far as tankbusters.

Of course, because a relentless 2 shot bs4 Missile launcher which doesn't require LOS and ignores cover on vehicles mounted on a t6 2wound dude, for the price of 2 ML Long Fangs is WAY overcosted.

If marines got Hive Guard equivalents for 50pts in their elite slots, you really think everybody wouldn't be playing them?

Jabbdo wrote:[
Of course, because a relentless 2 shot bs4 Missile launcher which doesn't require LOS and ignores cover on vehicles mounted on a t6 2wound dude, for the price of 2 ML Long Fangs is WAY overcosted.

If marines got Hive Guard equivalents for 50pts in their elite slots, you really think everybody wouldn't be playing them?

With half the range. I'm not saying they're a bad unit - I'm just saying they aren't amazing. The reason every (sane) Tyranid list includes them is because as far as ranged anti-tank we have:

1) Hive Guard - 24 inch range, awesome LOS tricks - really only awesome at popping transports
2) Zoanthrope - 18 inch range Lance, psychic power (so roll LD test, avoid psychic defnses, then try and hit).
3) Tyrannofex - 48 inch range tankbuster - this one is awesome, but costs 265 points.

Of all of those options, yes the Hive Guard rocks. Compared to what marines get? Not so much (imo).

Note: I'm not saying Nids should have more marine-like units or attacks. I just don't think Hive Guard are the most point efficient unit in the Codex - Gargoyles that that hands down.

Don't you just hate how the Hive Tyrant, the Harpy and the Tyrannofex are BS 3?

They are also super expensive. HG are the only affordable long ranged anti-tank that Tyranids have. It says something about the weakness of a list that 6 HG are mandatory in mech heavy environments

if only there was a way to boost accuracy (tyranid marker lights?)

rigeld2 wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:[
Of course, because a relentless 2 shot bs4 Missile launcher which doesn't require LOS and ignores cover on vehicles mounted on a t6 2wound dude, for the price of 2 ML Long Fangs is WAY overcosted.

If marines got Hive Guard equivalents for 50pts in their elite slots, you really think everybody wouldn't be playing them?

With half the range. I'm not saying they're a bad unit - I'm just saying they aren't amazing. The reason every (sane) Tyranid list includes them is because as far as ranged anti-tank we have:

1) Hive Guard - 24 inch range, awesome LOS tricks - really only awesome at popping transports
2) Zoanthrope - 18 inch range Lance, psychic power (so roll LD test, avoid psychic defnses, then try and hit).
3) Tyrannofex - 48 inch range tankbuster - this one is awesome, but costs 265 points.

Of all of those options, yes the Hive Guard rocks. Compared to what marines get? Not so much (imo).

Note: I'm not saying Nids should have more marine-like units or attacks. I just don't think Hive Guard are the most point efficient unit in the Codex - Gargoyles that that hands down.

Now I know i'm gonna get lectured on how i'm wrong but here we go.

Picking just 1:

Eldar= Prince Yriel ( cost 155) Fully versitile, Str 9 vs. vehicles, PW that wounds on a 2+, effectively a flamestorm large blast that goes off at I 7 once a game, fully hideable in units and transports until your ready to bring him out.( yes i already know about his downsides lol)

Blood Angels= Gabriel Seth (cost 160) a 4 wound captain that can get one auto hit on a flat out vehicle and effectively has a PF that rends( vs. vehicles) is str 8 plus rending vs nonvehicles that strikes at I 5, and the best part: he literally punches people in the face that roll a 1 to hit him, also he's fully hideable as well.

I would say for tyranids it would HAVE to be
10 pt termigaunts with devourers... str 4 18" range 3 shots lol....
bump them up to 12 pts and give them adrenal glands (furious charge) and toxin sacs (4+ poison reroll all to wound failed rolls if your str is equal or above your opponents...)you have great shooting and mellee choice...

Run
shoot 3 shots per guy minumum squad size of 10
30 shots
hits on 4+
wounds marines on 4+
assault
get the charge bumping str to 4
hit on 4+
wound on 4+
reroll all failed cc wounds...
50 attacks total 3 shots and 2 close combat... for 12 points per model... rediculous

10 guys in a group for 140 pts
50 attacks that against space marines all is 4+ against weaker enemies its even better.... your looking at a troop of death
wiuth maximum range actually at 24" death range at 12"

-or-

8 point hormagaunts
run 20 of them for 160 pts and have maximum close combat attacks of 60 all hitting and wounding on 4+ re rolling all to hit rolls of 1 if str is 3 or less re rolling all failed wounding hits... i mean thats rediculous.

Note* neither option works well for armoured vehicles.... even with a10 in the backs... str 4 just... doesnt cut it without rending. But for infantry, elite and hero killing... yea... not even logan grimnar can at what 270 pts can hold his own to 10-15 termigaunts or hormagaunts. at less than half his points.

Don't get me wrong, I love the hive guard, I guess I didn't word it properly, but i meant that there are other options in other operative word "other" codexes that are a great buy. Plus they are a $ drain to buy lawl.

Flickerfields. 10 pts for a 5+ Invul. on our Magic Paper Mache Pirate Ships? Awwww yeah.

Not to hate on the Chaos Daemon Fiend love. But they are 30 points each.

Seekers of Slaanesh are only 17 points, they have the same attack range, only 1 less attack, and 1 less Strength.

Yes they have half as many wounds to withstand the shooting phase after dropping in, so it starts to balance out.

But point for point, Seekers are far better than Fiends.

Shadowmyth515 wrote:I would say for tyranids it would HAVE to be
10 pt termigaunts with devourers... str 4 18" range 3 shots lol....
bump them up to 12 pts and give them adrenal glands (furious charge) and toxin sacs (4+ poison reroll all to wound failed rolls if your str is equal or above your opponents...)you have great shooting and mellee choice...

Run
shoot 3 shots per guy minumum squad size of 10
30 shots
hits on 4+
wounds marines on 4+
assault
get the charge bumping str to 4
hit on 4+
wound on 4+
reroll all failed cc wounds...
50 attacks total 3 shots and 2 close combat... for 12 points per model... rediculous

10 guys in a group for 140 pts
50 attacks that against space marines all is 4+ against weaker enemies its even better.... your looking at a troop of death
wiuth maximum range actually at 24" death range at 12"

-or-

8 point hormagaunts
run 20 of them for 160 pts and have maximum close combat attacks of 60 all hitting and wounding on 4+ re rolling all to hit rolls of 1 if str is 3 or less re rolling all failed wounding hits... i mean thats rediculous.

Note* neither option works well for armoured vehicles.... even with a10 in the backs... str 4 just... doesnt cut it without rending. But for infantry, elite and hero killing... yea... not even logan grimnar can at what 270 pts can hold his own to 10-15 termigaunts or hormagaunts. at less than half his points.

Gotta agree with you here, I've seen TWC units get overwhelmed with wounds from a 20-man Hormagaunt unit (with adrenals and toxin sacs). They're nasty, but they will die in the next turn when the enemy revenge-kills them.

I've always thought of the Codex: Space Marine Librarian as the most cost efficient thing in that book. It does so many beautiful, beautiful things at a really nice price. You don't have to buy a single upgrade to make it awesome.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:Not to hate on the Chaos Daemon Fiend love. But they are 30 points each.

Seekers of Slaanesh are only 17 points, they have the same attack range, only 1 less attack, and 1 less Strength.

Yes they have half as many wounds to withstand the shooting phase after dropping in, so it starts to balance out.

But point for point, Seekers are far better than Fiends.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Seekers are only str3, and Fiends are Str5 (with one at Str6 for dirt cheap). The Fiends are better because they can take out land raiders (through rending), but Seekers are only good at infantry.

Edit: also, Seekers have grenades, but Fiends don't. Fiends are more versatile because they can take out vehicles/MC/ICs better, but Seekers are probably better at pure anti-infantry.

Hydra Flak Tank for Imperial Guard. They cost 75 points and have four autocannons, heavy bolters and a smoke launcher. The enemy's skimmers and most tanks get one-shotted in the first turn.

Space wolves:
with out a doubt it's a no brainer you grey hunters are your bread and butter, with that amazing company standard that allows rerolls of ALL 1's in close combat (including armor saves, mark of the wulfun attack, etc.) it's a steal.
Though longs fangs are a deal for 5 missile launcher long fangs it's 140 points, with the ability to splint fire, very versatile.

Grey Knights: Psybolt ammo rifle dread: 4 str 8 auto cannon shots yes please.

Dark Eldar: Chronos Pain engine- 110 points you got your self a T7 str5, A: 3+ monster with a AP 3 flamer template and large blast that steals pain tokens and gives it to it's self and others is very useful if you keep a near by group of witches or incubi near him.

daemons: hard to decide here. flamers of tzeentch 35 poitns apiece a 3 man suicide unit, causing 3 wounds of 4+ no armor or cover save allowed flamer templates can decimate an opponents expensive unit. or fiends of slaanesh 30 points apiece for a str 5 t 4 w 2 i 5 A 5 with reading beast model. These guys i've seen fly across the board shredding units to pieces.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:The only truly efficient units here are the Gargoyles and (arguably) Doom. Sure, the others are good (excluding Rippers...), but you pay an arm and a leg for them, and then pray that the enemy doesn't blast them away early.

See, I would say the Swarmlord is inefficient pointwise, but the thing is, your going to be dropping about 300 points into a good walking tyrant anyways, so when you think about it, your paying about the same for a swarmlord or a walking hive tyrant, and as an alternative, the Swarmlord has some great uses as a CC only tyrant. Especially in reserves lists or Genestealer lists.

Swiftblade wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:The only truly efficient units here are the Gargoyles and (arguably) Doom. Sure, the others are good (excluding Rippers...), but you pay an arm and a leg for them, and then pray that the enemy doesn't blast them away early.

See, I would say the Swarmlord is inefficient pointwise, but the thing is, your going to be dropping about 300 points into a good walking tyrant anyways, so when you think about it, your paying about the same for a swarmlord or a walking hive tyrant, and as an alternative, the Swarmlord has some great uses as a CC only tyrant. Especially in reserves lists or Genestealer lists.

Agreed, Swarmlord is a good use of points, but like I said he isn't exactly "efficient".

axeman1n wrote:.
Necrons: Tombspider: 55pts can give you T6, 5W unit with a 3+ cover save as long as the scarab is in area terrain. If you kill the scarab, he just makes another.

So Wrong it made a Cat die...

+1 for the dual-cannon Venoms.

It's a transport vehicle that is actually better for firepower than the dedicated Eldar attack vehicle- the Vyper. For some players, it's the only way GW can sell their 5-man Wrack boxed sets.

If DE could take three of them as a squadron for a Fast Attack choice, they would be one of the most powerful units in the game.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Swiftblade wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:The only truly efficient units here are the Gargoyles and (arguably) Doom. Sure, the others are good (excluding Rippers...), but you pay an arm and a leg for them, and then pray that the enemy doesn't blast them away early.

See, I would say the Swarmlord is inefficient pointwise, but the thing is, your going to be dropping about 300 points into a good walking tyrant anyways, so when you think about it, your paying about the same for a swarmlord or a walking hive tyrant, and as an alternative, the Swarmlord has some great uses as a CC only tyrant. Especially in reserves lists or Genestealer lists.

Agreed, Swarmlord is a good use of points, but like I said he isn't exactly "efficient".

Yes, to qualify for this unit the unit must be a STEAL

Thunderfire cannon. 100 points of squad wiping ground shaking power!!!!!! ;D

Bloodhorror wrote:

axeman1n wrote:.
Necrons: Tombspider: 55pts can give you T6, 5W unit with a 3+ cover save as long as the scarab is in area terrain. If you kill the scarab, he just makes another.

So Wrong it made a Cat die...

Can you elaborate? The tombspider is a tough as nails monsterous creature with T6 and S6. Make a scarab and it's almost invincible to shooting.

BOYZ!!!

axeman1n wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:

axeman1n wrote:.
Necrons: Tombspider: 55pts can give you T6, 5W unit with a 3+ cover save as long as the scarab is in area terrain. If you kill the scarab, he just makes another.

So Wrong it made a Cat die...

Can you elaborate? The tombspider is a tough as nails monsterous creature with T6 and S6. Make a scarab and it's almost invincible to shooting.

No Wait, ignore that comment i've gotten confused with Daemons Spawning their Nurgling Bases...

I ASSUMED it was in the same manner as necrons but having reread the codex, i was wrong. My Bad!
Cat Ressurected...


However, surely because its a Monstourous Creature it can be picked out via Shooting?
Or is that not so on account of its Lack of Monstourous Creature rule?

Much silly stuff in this thread. Banshees cost-effective? They suck, there is a reason that nobody plays them. Ripper swarms?? Lemartes!?!

The most obvious undercosted units are:
Long Fangs w. ML
Psyflemen
Vendetta

Three units where you almost have to be stupid, have a need to be different or have some brilliant plan to not fill out the entire slot with them in a competitive army.

Also a couple of undercosted characters:
Eldrad
Vulkan

DCA and crusadors are hilariously cheap. With dca, you get 2 power weapons at strength four with 4 attacks on the charge at int. 6 and WS 5. You also get a 5++ save, all for a tasty 15 points. Crusadors get a power weapon AND a stormshield for the same price, a combo that some armys pay 30-40 points for.

Trygon prime for tyranids, now i know you might feel that is expensive. Yet when you see what he can do
You realize why so many 2k nid lists have two of them, my personal record is eliminating 1000 points of my opponents army with trygon alone.

sandant wrote: Trygon prime for tyranids, now i know you might feel that is expensive. Yet when you see what he can do
You realize why so many 2k nid lists have two of them, my personal record is eliminating 1000 points of my opponents army with trygon alone.

Farsight Bomb too. Expensive, but with that many suits shooting, nothing is going to retaliate.

i know im gonna get flak for it but my god has he ever made his points back in big ways.....in my opinion with the right model possible the greatest diversion and disruption unit in the game.....the chaos greater daemon. if used properly he can smash tanks and troops alike and keep tickin. at 100 points how can you go wrong. i use termi-cides to bring him about, infiltrating chosen to be a pain heck ive even taken raptors to get him in battle dont underestimate him he is a beast.

pinksockpuppet wrote:the chaos greater daemon. if used properly he can smash tanks and troops alike and keep tickin. at 100 points how can you go wrong.

Well, it's not 100 points for starters.

This thread has more wrong info in it than any other thread I have seen in a while hahahah

DarknessEternal wrote:

pinksockpuppet wrote:the chaos greater daemon. if used properly he can smash tanks and troops alike and keep tickin. at 100 points how can you go wrong.

Well, it's not 100 points for starters.

well that may be true, depending on what you bring him out of but any good list that uses him gets him for 133-140 points still amazing.

pinksockpuppet wrote:i know im gonna get flak for it but my god has he ever made his points back in big ways.....in my opinion with the right model possible the greatest diversion and disruption unit in the game.....the chaos greater daemon. if used properly he can smash tanks and troops alike and keep tickin. at 100 points how can you go wrong. i use termi-cides to bring him about, infiltrating chosen to be a pain heck ive even taken raptors to get him in battle dont underestimate him he is a beast.

...Greater Daemons are only 100 POINTS!!! That's INSANE!!! I wholeheartedly agree with you.

nectarprime wrote:This thread has more wrong info in it than any other thread I have seen in a while hahahah

This some of the posts in this thread could be moved to another thread named "the pipe dreams of dakka"

Has anyone mentioned a guardsmen with a lasgun?

5pts people.. 5pts.. Gotta be the craziest, bravest guys out there! second is an Ork boy, 6pts, guardsmen on 'roids, better for assault than shooting.

A guardsman with a lasgun, even without orders, at a 3/1 proportion matches a power armour marine, but STILL HAS 1 POINT LEFT OVER. win.

Jihallah wrote:

nectarprime wrote:This thread has more wrong info in it than any other thread I have seen in a while hahahah

This some of the posts in this thread could be moved to another thread named "the pipe dreams of dakka"

kyranzor wrote:Has anyone mentioned a guardsmen with a lasgun?

5pts people.. 5pts.. Gotta be the craziest, bravest guys out there! second is an Ork boy, 6pts, guardsmen on 'roids, better for assault than shooting.

A guardsman with a lasgun, even without orders, at a 3/1 proportion matches a power armour marine, but STILL HAS 1 POINT LEFT OVER. win.

kyranzor wrote:Has anyone mentioned a guardsmen with a lasgun?

yup, back on page one. Even though it isn't an upgrade, I had to say it!

Wait no, that was another thread which was basically the same as this. sorry kyr

You may see it as a joke jihallah, but seriously, a basic guardsmen is excellent value. You can get 300 of the buggers for 1500pts in a 2k or 2.5k pt match, and 30 autocannons and meltas on top to finish up. Its obscene. If it was in japan, they'd pixelate the army.

kyranzor wrote:You may see it as a joke jihallah, but seriously, a basic guardsmen is excellent value. You can get 300 of the buggers for 1500pts in a 2k or 2.5k pt match, and 30 autocannons and meltas on top to finish up. Its obscene. If it was in japan, they'd pixelate the army.

But it you spend that much on standard guardsmen, then they can just use a heavy armour spearhead with plenty of dakka and pie plates and you won't hurt them

Also, Plus, you will need HQ, so less than 300. And transports.

kyranzor wrote:You may see it as a joke jihallah, but seriously, a basic guardsmen is excellent value. You can get 300 of the buggers for 1500pts in a 2k or 2.5k pt match, and 30 autocannons and meltas on top to finish up. Its obscene. If it was in japan, they'd pixelate the army.

I'm not saying they are bad, I'm saying they don't make me go "I can't believe it's that cheap!" Like, say, a Typhoon, fire dragons, or a Hydra

Okay fine. Ratlings. Epic sniper hobbits in cover-save-power-armour and infiltrate all for 10pts.

kyranzor wrote:Okay fine. Ratlings. Epic sniper hobbits in cover-save-power-armour and infiltrate all for 10pts.

Certainly a better way to spend ten points than a FW ><

GK: Strike squads
SW: Grey Hunters
Vanilla: Stormshield Librarian
Tyranids: Hive guard
IG: Veterans
BT: Land raider crusaders

kyranzor wrote:Okay fine. Ratlings. Epic sniper hobbits in cover-save-power-armour and infiltrate all for 10pts.

They are one of the worst choices in the IG codex. Sniper rifle is a horrible weapon in 40k (sadly)

To be fair, 10 points for a BS4 Stealth, Infiltrating dude with a rending gun isn't as bad as some other books.

Honestly, though, I'd have to say it's the Vendetta.

Yeah and bs4 for guard is good, and long-las sniper rifles wound on a 4+ so that beats 5-6+ for regular lasguns against most targets. Pinning, rending on top. And a great cover save as mentioned earlier.

And not scoring, and T2 and crappy Ld, heavy 1 weapon, and no special weapons. Pinning is near useless, rending is not really reliable, you are looking at around 1 rend with ten shots. 100pts for 10 snipers is not a good buy. They are easily in the bottom ten of IG choices. Their only saving grace is that they aren't competing with anything else for slots and the very flexible squad size, which means you can squeeze them into any list if you like the little buggers.

dire avengers are pretty good troops. They are wonderful anti-horde, and for 152 points, you can lay out 32 shots, throw in some psyker support, and now you have a unit that can papercut an ork mob to death in one round of shooting.

Crisis suit.

25pts+weapons.

loota boy wrote:DCA and crusadors are hilariously cheap. With dca, you get 2 power weapons at strength four with 4 attacks on the charge at int. 6 and WS 5. You also get a 5++ save, all for a tasty 15 points. Crusadors get a power weapon AND a stormshield for the same price, a combo that some armys pay 30-40 points for.

I don't think so, actually. A DCA costs 1 more point than a Genestealer. If you look at a DCA's statline, it's basically a Genestealer with +1 A (because of two weapons), -1 T, -2 Ld, power weapons instead of rending, 5++ instead of 5+, no fleet, and no infiltrate/outflank.

So, they're a little more deadly in combat than Genestealers, but without any of the things Genestealers have to get themselves into combat. Put them in a chimera? Can't assault out of it if it moved this turn. Keep them on foot? At T3, they'll get shredded by bolter fire, Storm Shields notwithstanding. T3 makes charging into cover even worse for them than it is for Genestealers, and Ld 10 over Ld 8 is a pretty big deal. Basically, they have the same problems as Howling Banshees.

They've got a small threat radius and they'll fold to anti-infantry shooting, so basically all they're going to do for you is countercharge unless you buy them a Land Raider or a Stormraven. Honestly, I think I'll take the Genestealer.

BA Assault Marines, work for many playstyles, they either can get you cheap transports or form deadly CC units that can DS with good precision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NeutronPoison wrote:

loota boy wrote:DCA and crusadors are hilariously cheap. With dca, you get 2 power weapons at strength four with 4 attacks on the charge at int. 6 and WS 5. You also get a 5++ save, all for a tasty 15 points. Crusadors get a power weapon AND a stormshield for the same price, a combo that some armys pay 30-40 points for.

I don't think so, actually. A DCA costs 1 more point than a Genestealer. If you look at a DCA's statline, it's basically a Genestealer with +1 A (because of two weapons), -1 T, -2 Ld, power weapons instead of rending, 5++ instead of 5+, no fleet, and no infiltrate/outflank.

So, they're a little more deadly in combat than Genestealers, but without any of the things Genestealers have to get themselves into combat. Put them in a chimera? Can't assault out of it if it moved this turn. Keep them on foot? At T3, they'll get shredded by bolter fire, Storm Shields notwithstanding. T3 makes charging into cover even worse for them than it is for Genestealers, and Ld 10 over Ld 8 is a pretty big deal. Basically, they have the same problems as Howling Banshees.

They've got a small threat radius and they'll fold to anti-infantry shooting, so basically all they're going to do for you is countercharge unless you buy them a Land Raider or a Stormraven. Honestly, I think I'll take the Genestealer.

Well, just like assault termies and many other CC units, if you are running them, you are probably fielding LR or SR anyway.

Dark Eldar Succubus w/ agoniser

Always wound on a 4+, minimum of 6 attacks on the charge, combat drugs, power from pain, fleet, 4+ invun. in CC, high initiative.

All for 85 points

I have had this saucy minx rip through units of marines like tearing wet paper. The high initiative can help towards smashing most monstrous creatures on their backside. Also in a unit of wyches with hexatrix w/ agoniser. even more damage. NIIIICCCCE

....................what a steal.

Kharrak wrote:Though I've not really done any working out on which unit in the Ork codex is the most point efficient, I do know my opponents constantly remark with disdain how cheap Killa Kanz are. 35 points for a walker with dreadnought close combat weapons make's them frown. Trukks get the same treatment, but to a lesser extent.

40pts minimum

p_gray99 wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Though I've not really done any working out on which unit in the Ork codex is the most point efficient, I do know my opponents constantly remark with disdain how cheap Killa Kanz are. 35 points for a walker with dreadnought close combat weapons make's them frown. Trukks get the same treatment, but to a lesser extent.

40pts minimum

2 of them for every XV88 I field

im2randomghgh wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Though I've not really done any working out on which unit in the Ork codex is the most point efficient, I do know my opponents constantly remark with disdain how cheap Killa Kanz are. 35 points for a walker with dreadnought close combat weapons make's them frown. Trukks get the same treatment, but to a lesser extent.

40pts minimum

2 of them for every XV88 I field

Yeah, but an XV88 could easily take out 2, probably 3 or more.

p_gray99 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Though I've not really done any working out on which unit in the Ork codex is the most point efficient, I do know my opponents constantly remark with disdain how cheap Killa Kanz are. 35 points for a walker with dreadnought close combat weapons make's them frown. Trukks get the same treatment, but to a lesser extent.

40pts minimum

2 of them for every XV88 I field

Yeah, but an XV88 could easily take out 2, probably 3 or more.

Yes, but that is using up my XV88s time, meaning I either have to leave their bigger scarier things alone, or ignore their kans.

true, but then again you can just missle pod them to death first turn.

p_gray99 wrote:true, but then again you can just missle pod them to death first turn.

But missile pods are the only long range crisis weapon, so if there is dangerous infantry that needs to be thinned at arms reach...

Take Lots of missile pods and Railguns, and keep all infantry nicely safe behind that kroot wall.