With all the changes that the Imperium has gone through in the past 10,000 years, would the (Loyalist) Primarchs stay loyal if they came back?
Let's say that Khan came back from the warp where he was trapped. Would he remain loyal to what has become a shadow of an empire, rules by a religion he deems heretical, find his Legion now shattered and just a shade of it's former glory, and not using the advanced technology that he used?
I'd say they would. If the would come back from the warp, they would still recognize the Emperor as their leader and would gather up every successor chapter of their former legion, to lead them on an new crusade.
SilverMK2 wrote:I think they would probably be seen as too dangerous a power by the High Lords to be allowed to survive.
High Lords? Say hi to the deathwing...
To Primarchs, there is only one to follow, he who they swore fealty to.
Highlords are replacable...
The High Lords wouldn't oppose a Primarch if he is alongside other astartes. Because if the adeptus astartes finds out, the whole lot comes down on these "high" lords to lay them low.
Thus, Primarchs would be loyal to him on Terra, maybe to humanity, but rather not to a high-lord. They may respect the mechanicum as it was an ally back in the day and still is. Plus, most of them left after the heresy was over, after the scouring, etc and could know where the course was set to.
I think that the Lion or Guilliman would decide that they knew their fathers wishes and that he would not want to continue through artificial means, then proceed to remake the IoM in their own image.
I suspect itd make for some rather considerable awkwardness between the high lords and the adeptus astartes.
The high lords have gone against the emperors wishes on two counts:
- allowing people to worship him as a god
- allowing people to have religion
The primarchs being loyal to the emperor would not take kindly to the caretakers making changes as they see fit. The caretakers would not take kindly to being told to gtfo and undo what they have done over the last 10 millennia.
War between the two? Unlikely, many imperial citizens would be unwilling to fight the astartes, due to the legendary and formidable reputation surrounding them, and due to the fact that many may in fact owe them their lives. Imho it would all depend on which side the mechanicum allies with as that could change the balance of power greatly- a space marine with no access to new weaponry or armour isn't going to fare as well as millions of guardsmen with flashlights and artillery strikes.
And before the possibility of trying to assasinate the primarch is thrown up as a counter argument- what good space marine is going to allow their primarch to be killed? I'm sure they would sooner take the bullet/lascannon themselves.
Mechanized Space Corps wrote:And before the possibility of trying to assasinate the primarch is thrown up as a counter argument- what good space marine is going to allow their primarch to be killed? I'm sure they would sooner take the bullet/lascannon themselves.
It would have to be done quickly to limit the "taint" of the returned primarch and make it easier to contain. The big I have removed almost all mention of the HH throughout the Imperium (depending on the fluff you read), wiping out a few systems to ensure that no word of the return of a primarch and squatting a few SM chapters would not bother them - the Imperium (as it stands) is more important (to those in control) than that.
Chowderhead wrote:With all the changes that the Imperium has gone through in the past 10,000 years, would the (Loyalist) Primarchs stay loyal if they came back?
Let's say that Khan came back from the warp where he was trapped. Would he remain loyal to what has become a shadow of an empire, rules by a religion he deems heretical, find his Legion now shattered and just a shade of it's former glory, and not using the advanced technology that he used?
Hardly... They would be pissed off at HLoT, and try to implement some changes for sure.
Durza wrote:The only two I could see that happening between would be the Lion and Guilliman. And Guilliman has a lot more Marines...
so does the Lion. The Lion when he comes back he will control all the Dark Angel Successor Chapters, The entire Unforgiven Chapters and all the other ones that have bee founded recently.
If that were to happen I believe the Lion would be loyal to his brother Guilliman and start the crusade for the Second Empire. With the decline and 'corruption' rife within the remnants of the first, these two, and their Marines would find renewed purpose cleansing the Galaxy once again.
I seriously doubt there would be much in-fighting as the primarchs have probably learned a great lesson by now.
Whoa, thats a big question. Overall, they would be loyal, to the Emperor, not the High Lords. They are however, far more powerful than the High Lords, not to mention more Charismatic and Intelligent. They, or He, would rest control of the Empire from the High Lords and "unplug" the Golden Throne.
This would not result in the pwning of Terra by Daemons however, it would result in the rebirth of the Emperor (see the Warhammer Wiki Illuminati prophecy)
Thus, the salvation of the IoM relies on one of a few things.... 1. Guilliman healing even faster 2. The Salamanders finding the rest of their relics 3. SOMEBODY finally braving the Eye of Terror to go get Russ 4. Any of the others showing up out of their various predicaments
In the end, however, it is a mute point because GW would NEVER complete any fluff EVER.
It's okay that they don't give us answers to questions. Makes it more interesting. You wouldnt care about the puzzle and what it showed you if you had those dozen pieces that were actually under the couch.
Let GW tease the fanboys. I'm enjoying the setting. Though I would like them to release a Horus Heresy rulebook.
Well, the Primarchs were only doing stuff becuase they liked fighting, save for Sangunius, who followed the Emperor's dream of peace, but welll, the Primarchs were bloody gits.
Uhlan wrote:If that were to happen I believe the Lion would be loyal to his brother Guilliman and start the crusade for the Second Empire. With the decline and 'corruption' rife within the remnants of the first, these two, and their Marines would find renewed purpose cleansing the Galaxy once again.
I seriously doubt there would be much in-fighting as the primarchs have probably learned a great lesson by now.
This is probably the best answer, they would go to Terra and check the situation.
As soon as they see how fragile the Imperium is they would start another crusade to stabilize him ( not sure if Guliman would then ban codex Astartes for chapters under the Primarchs? ).
I only don't know how Inquisition would welcome them, I bet that they wouldn't have nice relationship ( especially with Russ and Lion ).
Seriously, we already know that Russ wouldn't take nice their attitude toward Wolves. Lion wouldn't love the investigation because of their "dark secret".
But what about Rogal Dorn? Does anyone found his body? I heard that only his arm was salvaged.
I think Guilliman would just succumb to major heart-attack after seeing what they did with his Codex xD (how many hearts does a primarch have anyways )
Any Primarch coming back would probably wind up being the Lord Commander of the Imperium as Guilliman was. From there I could imagine a rather large purging of the imperial cult as many would remember the lesson dealt to Fulgrim.
It could prove quite the pickle for the Imperium. I can imagine that rifts would form and another great age of war would be born. If the returned Primarch decided to become part of the existing Imperium, they would definitely hold instant power.
Some of the High Lords are greedy and corrupt and as power hungry as Bucharris and wouldn't likely let their power go quietly. The High Lords act on behalf of the Emperor so I am sure you would have some Chapters ally themselves with these. Some would welcome back the Primarch and side with them.
It's like if the Emperor came back, despite him being lord and master of all, people wouldn't be happy all the way down from the High Lords, Inquistion etc.
If they didn't like what they saw, the same thing would likely happen. The worst would be if Guilliman returned and bought all of the Chapters that used his Geneseed under his banner.
Config2 wrote:Whoa, thats a big question.
Overall, they would be loyal, to the Emperor, not the High Lords.
They are however, far more powerful than the High Lords, not to mention more Charismatic and Intelligent.
They, or He, would rest control of the Empire from the High Lords and "unplug" the Golden Throne.
This would not result in the pwning of Terra by Daemons however, it would result in the rebirth of the Emperor (see the Warhammer Wiki Illuminati prophecy)
If there is not someone sitting on the Throne, the daemons Magnus accidentally unleashed will pour through the Webway gate and devour all life on Terra.Half way through the last paragraph.
Pilau Rice wrote:
If they didn't like what they saw, the same thing would likely happen. The worst would be if Guilliman returned and bought all of the Chapters that used his Geneseed under his banner.
SHHHH! You are giving ward ideas.
Any way it would certainly shake things up do to corrupt high lords; might cause a rift between the high lords and primarchs resulting in war. Depending on where they were and how they would spin it as the primarch being tainted. All depends on how long it takes the Primarch to get a plan, get his marines, and wrestle power from the corrupt high lords; replacing them with those that acknowledge that good old Imperial Truth. The primarchs would likely not be loyal to the Empire in its current state but would likely try to reform it. I imagine they would draw up plans to keep the Eye of Terror secures they begin reforming Imperial knowledge taking them out of the grim dark Orwellian nightmare and bringing them to a golden age of enlightenment. Admittedly with this going on the Imperium would still be under threat from all sides and they would likely lose a large number of outer edge planets. This means after the Primarch had kept as much of the border secure, reformed Imperial knowledge(over the course of a few generations maybe sooner) the word of the Imperial cult would be forgotten save for the cathedrals; maybe permanent records saying never to let a religion reign free and all that. Then would come a mission to bring the Emperor back safely.
Course this requires bringing the Grimdarkness down from 11 to 10 so GW won't do that.
I think it would create a rift for humanity; yes. However, I believe all the Astartes for the most part would side with the primarch/s returning. They have no loyalty for the lords of terra, just the Emprah. Now the =I= on the other hand....
Zid wrote:I think it would create a rift for humanity; yes. However, I believe all the Astartes for the most part would side with the primarch/s returning. They have no loyalty for the lords of terra, just the Emprah. Now the =I= on the other hand....
Yeaah, but until the Emperor returns, the High Lords are the big deal so the Astartes do follow what they say. I'm not sure if all the Astartes would side with the Primarch. Despite of what Ward says, not all hold Guilliman as their spiritual leige and the others wouldn't necessarily follow just any Primarch.
Guilliman himself sat as a High Lord after the ascension of the Emperor.
Zid wrote:I think it would create a rift for humanity; yes. However, I believe all the Astartes for the most part would side with the primarch/s returning. They have no loyalty for the lords of terra, just the Emprah. Now the =I= on the other hand....
Yeaah, but until the Emperor returns, the High Lords are the big deal so the Astartes do follow what they say. I'm not sure if all the Astartes would side with the Primarch. Despite of what Ward says, not all hold Guilliman as their spiritual leige and the others wouldn't necessarily follow just any Primarch.
I agree to that; but the problem is, someone can claim to be the word of the Emperor (High Lords) but not really be it. If anything one of the Primarch's returning would create hope for all astartes that their spiritual lieges would return. I don't see GW returning 1 or 2 Primarch's and leaving most in the dark, unless they slowly feed them to us through story advances and novels. Either way if they do return I don't think they will be the same as before; they will probably be stronger, have a different insight into things, and be less trusting of the other legions. It'll be interesting
But if the Emperor dies... that would be an entirely other can of worms, but that seems to be the direction we're going.
Zid wrote:
I agree to that; but the problem is, someone can claim to be the word of the Emperor (High Lords) but not really be it. If anything one of the Primarch's returning would create hope for all astartes that their spiritual lieges would return. I don't see GW returning 1 or 2 Primarch's and leaving most in the dark, unless they slowly feed them to us through story advances and novels. Either way if they do return I don't think they will be the same as before; they will probably be stronger, have a different insight into things, and be less trusting of the other legions. It'll be interesting
But if the Emperor dies... that would be an entirely other can of worms, but that seems to be the direction we're going.
It could also create rivalry and resentment.
Yeah, they've been away for a long time, and most of them in the warp. I wonder how many tentacles they have between them now.
Zid wrote:
I agree to that; but the problem is, someone can claim to be the word of the Emperor (High Lords) but not really be it. If anything one of the Primarch's returning would create hope for all astartes that their spiritual lieges would return. I don't see GW returning 1 or 2 Primarch's and leaving most in the dark, unless they slowly feed them to us through story advances and novels. Either way if they do return I don't think they will be the same as before; they will probably be stronger, have a different insight into things, and be less trusting of the other legions. It'll be interesting
But if the Emperor dies... that would be an entirely other can of worms, but that seems to be the direction we're going.
It could also create rivalry and resentment.
Yeah, they've been away for a long time, and most of them in the warp. I wonder how many tentacles they have between them now.
The Emperor dying would shake things up a little.
I really hope that happens to be honest... progression of the story would be nice; rather than "mahrinez fighting on 100000000 planets but not getting anywhere, but hey, the imperium lives on!"
Just a thought but aren't the ideals of the IoM during the age of the primarchs and the current IoM different? I mean they didn't worship the emperor as a god then. Would they have a clash of ideals that might eventually lead to civil war if they did come back?
I think if Russ came back and saw the state of the imperium he would be so disgusted that he would take the entire space wolves chapter back into the warp to finish what he started with magnus. Once that was complete he would more than likely come back out and take over the imperium and return it to its anti religion no psyker roots.
Skal098 wrote:I think if Russ came back and saw the state of the imperium he would be so disgusted that he would take the entire space wolves chapter back into the warp to finish what he started with magnus. Once that was complete he would more than likely come back out and take over the imperium and return it to its anti religion no psyker roots.[/quote
Would be a fun read to be sure haha. An entire Legion venturing into the warp though... I doubt they'd come back even if they did manage to take out Magnus.
Agreeing with Skal. Im my opinion since most of the loyal primarchs consider the emperor as a supreme role model and not as a god, they might get disgusted at what the IoM has become
I think if anything Guilliman might integrate sorta seemlessly into the modern Imperium. Dude was always hungry for power and so much of the cesspool that the IOM turned into became was based off a blueprint Guilliman was involved in.
Viersche wrote:Agreeing with Skal. In my opinion since most of the loyal primarchs consider the emperor as a supreme role model and not as a god, they might get disgusted at what the IoM has become
Probably this, especially since the Emperor verbally b****slapped Lorgar for doing the EXACT same thing before it was cool.
Also, food for thought. Wasn't the emperor's fluff written when the Terry Schiavo case was going on? He's totally gonna get his plug pulled if they ever advance the storyline.
I think most of the marines would side with any of the Emperors gene sons, who would be akin to their father/uncle than the high lords. Barring those who fell to chaos before someone decides to nit pick The Astartes are indoctrined to honour their primarchs and their gene father the Emperor above all else. But given the GK's in the background have very strong ties to the Inquisition and therefore the High Lords would be interesting to see where they would go. But then again maybe another Primarch would have "High Lords were ere lolz!" carved in his heart
If the Primarchs returned, they would more then likely be loyal to the Emperor, and what the IoM was, NOT what the IoM does and how it acts in the current day and age. I could easily see one like Russ gathering the full force of the Wolves and restarting the Great Crusade to bring the IoM back to how it was supposed to be.. they allready dont like the inquisition.. should be fun.
Lion is the only one who'd be shocked at the changes, all the rest were still around when the changes were made. It was not until after the Scouring that the primarchs started to disappear or die off.
I'd imagine that if someone like Vulkan came back the Mechanicum would want him to help design weapons.
I'd think that if Russ, Corax or Khan came back they'd end up being given their own crusades to lead which would also keep them out of the hair of the High Lords. Guillimann is the only one who'd possibly cause political problems for them but he's also the only one other than the Lion who'd likely compromise with them too.
I don't know how it would play out, but it would make sense to have a Primarch - a son of the Emperor trained to be a leader - in charge of the Imperium than the High lords, and as said before, high lords are replaceable while the Primarch's are unique, and if the astartes found out about the high lords going against the primarch, all hell would break loose.
SilverMK2 wrote:I think they would probably be seen as too dangerous a power by the High Lords to be allowed to survive.
Because the High Lords can pull that off.
The last time Anyone on Holy Terra Really annoyed an Astartes Chapter, They Stormed Terra and put a Bolter in his face. Technically. The Sisters of Battle beat them to it.
SilverMK2 wrote:I think they would probably be seen as too dangerous a power by the High Lords to be allowed to survive.
Because the High Lords can pull that off.
The last time Anyone on Holy Terra Really annoyed an Astartes Chapter, They Stormed Terra and put a Bolter in his face. Technically. The Sisters of Battle beat them to it.
That's true, but many of the Astartes Chapters just chose not to intervene. Who's to say that every chapter of the Space Marines sides with the freshly appeared Primarch, there will be those that cry 'Warp tainted abomination'. Some harbour, like the Iron Hands, strong resentment against the Raven Guard and Salamanders for the death of their Primarch. That's quite a bad example as the Iron Hands are a fairly grounded chapter, but you get my meaning.
Durza wrote:If Russ was to come back, the Dark Angels might be unwilling to follow him, and vice versa for the Lion.
They don't hate each other. They disagree from time to time, but their bond is strong because of it. They respect each other, just as their Chapters respect each other to this day.
SilverMK2 wrote:I think they would probably be seen as too dangerous a power by the High Lords to be allowed to survive.
Because the High Lords can pull that off.
The last time Anyone on Holy Terra Really annoyed an Astartes Chapter, They Stormed Terra and put a Bolter in his face. Technically. The Sisters of Battle beat them to it.
That's true, but many of the Astartes Chapters just chose not to intervene. Who's to say that every chapter of the Space Marines sides with the freshly appeared Primarch, there will be those that cry 'Warp tainted abomination'. Some harbour, like the Iron Hands, strong resentment against the Raven Guard and Salamanders for the death of their Primarch. That's quite a bad example as the Iron Hands are a fairly grounded chapter, but you get my meaning.
The mere presence of a Primarch would be a strong enough deterrent to stop them. Even if you feel personal resentment, Challenging a Primarch is folly.
Also, the only chapters that didn't intervene in the face of the Age of Apostasy were the ones that were continuing their missions against Chaos, Eldar, or Other, and could not spare soldiers.
Durza wrote:If Russ was to come back, the Dark Angels might be unwilling to follow him, and vice versa for the Lion.
They don't hate each other. They disagree from time to time, but their bond is strong because of it. They respect each other, just as their Chapters respect each other to this day.
Respect each other as in when their chapters come together, the leaders have a ritual battle which 'doesn't usually end in death'?
Wasn't the emperor's fluff written when the Terry Schiavo case was going on?
No. A decade earlier, at the least. The Emperor entombed on the Golden Throne has been around since the beginning of 40K.
The DA will not follow Russ, the SW will not follow the Lion. Although the Primarchs eventually became something close to friends, they still fought often, and occasionally dealt each other grievous wounds, but never actually killed one another. So it goes with their respective Chapters. The DA and the SW might work together to accomplish a mission, but the rivalry is still there, and does often lead to one side killing members of the other.
gabrielhorus wrote:The mere presence of a Primarch would be a strong enough deterrent to stop them. Even if you feel personal resentment, Challenging a Primarch is folly.
Because the presence of the Emperor was enough to stop the Horus Heresy right? I see what you are saying and to a point I agree, I just don't believe that it would be as cut and dry as every single Astartes Chapter falls inline behind a Primarch that has been missing for close enough ten thousand years.
gabrielhorus wrote:Also, the only chapters that didn't intervene in the face of the Age of Apostasy were the ones that were continuing their missions against Chaos, Eldar, or Other, and could not spare soldiers.
Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars were involved as well as the Mechanicum, from what I can find. There's quite a few chapters that weren't mentioned.
Durza wrote:If Russ was to come back, the Dark Angels might be unwilling to follow him, and vice versa for the Lion.
They don't hate each other. They disagree from time to time, but their bond is strong because of it. They respect each other, just as their Chapters respect each other to this day.
Respect each other as in when their chapters come together, the leaders have a ritual battle which 'doesn't usually end in death'?
Yes, a ritual battle, reminiscent of the battle their Primarch's had. In one of the two codices, or even both, it says this has created a strong bond between the two chapters.
gabrielhorus wrote:Also, the only chapters that didn't intervene in the face of the Age of Apostasy were the ones that were continuing their missions against Chaos, Eldar, or Other, and could not spare soldiers.
Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars were involved as well as the Mechanicum, from what I can find. There's quite a few chapters that weren't mentioned.
They only mentioned those that fought. Most were busy trying to regain territory gained by Chaos during the storms.
gabrielhorus wrote:Also, the only chapters that didn't intervene in the face of the Age of Apostasy were the ones that were continuing their missions against Chaos, Eldar, or Other, and could not spare soldiers.
Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars were involved as well as the Mechanicum, from what I can find. There's quite a few chapters that weren't mentioned.
They only mentioned those that fought. Most were busy trying to regain territory gained by Chaos during the storms.
So they were busy not intervening in the Age of Apostasy then doing their own thing.
Let's not forget that the HLoT don't just have to cede power to a returning Primarch; after all, the head of the Inquisition sits on the Council, and who does the Inquisition control? That's right, Kaldor Draigo, for whom Primarchs are no match.
Seaward wrote:Let's not forget that the HLoT don't just have to cede power to a returning Primarch; after all, the head of the Inquisition sits on the Council, and who does the Inquisition control? That's right, Kaldor Draigo, for whom Primarchs are no match.
Please don't say that again. It hurts my common sense.
primarch's are pretty legendary, and would possibly hand draigo his own ass, but it may happen the other, way, draigo, does, after all, live in the warp.
I think that was a joke, as Ward thought it a fitting tale that Draigo cut his forebearers name into Mortarions heart (just a sec..my soul just threw up a little bit..).. the reason obviously being "because feth you, THATS why" ..
edit: why the heck do i always press the "quote" button when i want to "edit" xD
Seaward wrote:Let's not forget that the HLoT don't just have to cede power to a returning Primarch; after all, the head of the Inquisition sits on the Council, and who does the Inquisition control? That's right, Kaldor Draigo, for whom Primarchs are no match.
Please don't say that again. It hurts my common sense.
Hey, I didn't write the fluff, though if wishing made it so...
Anyway. Yeah. Draigo. He's defeated a Primarch. Says so right in his book. Ergo, Russ would have to be on his toes around him.
Daigo defeated one of Khorne's greatest servants on his own, and he isn't even a Grey Knight. He crushes Draigo to the floor with a flick of his wrist.
iproxtaco wrote:Daigo defeated one of Khorne's greatest servants on his own, and he isn't even a Grey Knight. He crushes Draigo to the floor with a flick of his wrist.
Who the hell is Daigo? If he's a Blood Angel, I'm calling racism.
iproxtaco wrote:Daigo defeated one of Khorne's greatest servants on his own, and he isn't even a Grey Knight. He crushes Draigo to the floor with a flick of his wrist.
Who the hell is Daigo? If he's a Blood Angel, I'm calling racism.
Dante*, if you'll excuse the typo. Still, Dante apparently clove Skarbrand in half using his axe. That's a feat even more spectacular than Dragio's. Again though, people will hate for hatin's sake, never mind that many of the things that make Draigo so OOT (apparently) have been accomplished by other, lesser soldiers. Hector Rex? Thawn?
iproxtaco wrote:Daigo defeated one of Khorne's greatest servants on his own, and he isn't even a Grey Knight. He crushes Draigo to the floor with a flick of his wrist.
Who the hell is Daigo? If he's a Blood Angel, I'm calling racism.
Dante*, if you'll excuse the typo. Still, Dante apparently clove Skarbrand in half using his axe. That's a feat even more spectacular than Dragio's. Again though, people will hate for hatin's sake, never mind that many of the things that make Draigo so OOT (apparently) have been accomplished by other, lesser soldiers. Hector Rex? Thawn?
As far as I'm aware, Draigo's the only guy to have ever defeated a Daemon Primarch single-handed.
Yeah, a Daemon Primarch who is weaker than Skarbrand, who is a Daemon, and who is weaker than Ku'gath, and still a Daemon. Without wanting to derail the thread too much, a single Chapter Master who isn't a Grey Knight and therefore has no advantages against Daemons, fought and killed Skarbrand, a being that's far more powerful than Mortarion. Thawn, is a Justicar, far behind Draigo on the command chain, was literally eaten by Ku'gath, the most powerful Great Unclean One, more powerful than Mortarion, and he then proceeded to rip his way out through the Daemon's stomach, and killed it.
Comparing the two is stupid. It's like comparing a man with a stick killing a Lion, to a fully armoured Knight with a sword, killing a single dog. The latter is Draigo, the former is Dante.
Seaward wrote:Let's not forget that the HLoT don't just have to cede power to a returning Primarch; after all, the head of the Inquisition sits on the Council, and who does the Inquisition control? That's right, Kaldor Draigo, for whom Primarchs are no match.
Please don't say that again. It hurts my common sense.
Hey, I didn't write the fluff, though if wishing made it so...
Anyway. Yeah. Draigo. He's defeated a Primarch. Says so right in his book. Ergo, Russ would have to be on his toes around him.
I'M JUST USING LOGIC.
Well then, logically, Fulgrim can kill Draigo easily, since he's killed double the amount of primarchs.
I think they would! he could be a proxy and do whatever they really want... the struggle would be between the primarchs for real power while the big emp takes a seat.
MAN that bit of fluff about draigo feths me off. I mean seriously a muther fething daemon primarch, having his chest ripped open and having to sit there wailing whilst a puny little man in silver armour painstakingly inscribes his lords name onto Mortarions? I mean sheeeeet really? its stupid. How can an adeptus astartes (are GK Adeptus astartes?) beat a primarch, let alone a daemon primarch?
The Son Of Russ wrote:MAN that bit of fluff about draigo feths me off. I mean seriously a muther fething daemon primarch, having his chest ripped open and having to sit there wailing whilst a puny little man in silver armour painstakingly inscribes his lords name onto Mortarions? I mean sheeeeet really? its stupid. How can an adeptus astartes (are GK Adeptus astartes?) beat a primarch, let alone a daemon primarch?
By being very good at fighting Daemons. No really, didn't you hear? Grey Knights are actually these really, really skilled Daemon Hunters! I mean, isn't that a surprise? And then the absolute best of these Astartes, that are already better than your normal Astartes, actually went and beat this Daemon. Get over it. Dante, a normal Space Marine, a Chapter Master, yes, beat a much more powerful Daemon than Mortarion, alone. An Inquisitor solo'd the same one. A regular old Justicar, quite far below Draigo, killed Ku'gath, another more powerful Daemon than Mortarion. The whole character is brought down due to horrific writing skill, not the actual deeds committed. Killing a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon isn't fantastically over the top or unheard of.
I agree on the badly executed part. I mean, to actually CUT the name into the heart, mortarion must've been immobilised for quote some time. I can buy the "awesome hero spacemarine manages to gravely wound/ kill a demon in a fight", but to actually keep him down for long enough to do all that...
Friend of mine still says that mortarion was actually taking a quick powernap at the time and woke up with a "W T F" xD
If the Emperor was resurrected and called back his sons to his side, I would think Magnus would strongly consider it, although he's probably too closely tied to the Warp now, being an immaterial entity. If Alpharius wasn't BSing about doing it all for the Emperor, he may return as well, although he would probably just say on the "evil" side as a double agent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Config2 wrote:Thus, the salvation of the IoM relies on one of a few things....
1. Guilliman healing even faster
2. The Salamanders finding the rest of their relics
3. SOMEBODY finally braving the Eye of Terror to go get Russ
4. Any of the others showing up out of their various predicaments
In the end, however, it is a mute point because GW would NEVER complete any fluff EVER.
1. Guilliman is not healing at all, he is eternally trapped in the last few moments of his agonizing death. If it was possible to heal him and wake him up, he'll probably be completely flying rodent gak insane. Even if he is sane, there would undoubtedly be a Civil War. One of the big complains the Traitors during the Heresy was the Emperor delegating so much authority to these "puny human bureaucrats". The High Lords would probably demand his fealty, since they are for all intents and purposes the Emperor's voice. Or, since Guilliman was a High Lord himself, they may accept him as one voice among their council. So he would probably say screw that and spark of Imperium Secundus for real.
2. Not sure what gathering a bunch of weapons and armor will do to really help the Imperium.
3. In some ways, Russ would be an even bigger liability than Guilliman. Guilliman would at least attempt to negotiate. Guilliman would also stand a chance of winning, whereas Russ would just inflict horrendous damage and perhaps embark on a guerilla vengeance quest to destroy the perversion of his father's dream.
Omegus wrote:If the Emperor was resurrected and called back his sons to his side, I would think Magnus would strongly consider it, although he's probably too closely tied to the Warp now, being an immaterial entity. If Alpharius wasn't BSing about doing it all for the Emperor, he may return as well, although he would probably just say on the "evil" side as a double agent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Config2 wrote:Thus, the salvation of the IoM relies on one of a few things....
1. Guilliman healing even faster
2. The Salamanders finding the rest of their relics
3. SOMEBODY finally braving the Eye of Terror to go get Russ
4. Any of the others showing up out of their various predicaments
In the end, however, it is a mute point because GW would NEVER complete any fluff EVER.
1. Guilliman is not healing at all, he is eternally trapped in the last few moments of his agonizing death. If it was possible to heal him and wake him up, he'll probably be completely flying rodent gak insane. Even if he is sane, there would undoubtedly be a Civil War. One of the big complains the Traitors during the Heresy was the Emperor delegating so much authority to these "puny human bureaucrats". The High Lords would probably demand his fealty, since they are for all intents and purposes the Emperor's voice. Or, since Guilliman was a High Lord himself, they may accept him as one voice among their council. So he would probably say screw that and spark of Imperium Secundus for real.
2. Not sure what gathering a bunch of weapons and armor will do to really help the Imperium.
3. In some ways, Russ would be an even bigger liability than Guilliman. Guilliman would at least attempt to negotiate. Guilliman would also stand a chance of winning, whereas Russ would just inflict horrendous damage and perhaps embark on a guerilla vengeance quest to destroy the perversion of his father's dream.
I don't think Alpharius would come back. I mean he left the IoM back when his father was alive. Although Horus failed, i like to think that Alpharius is still plotting the downfall of the Imperium with the goal to destroy chaos.
As for Guilliman: He is in a stasis field. That means the second they collapse it and throw a cake filled with meds at him time will start to flow again for him (some say he is already dead, not even in his death throes). So he won't be "tortured mad" by the experience of dying for thousands of years. For him it would be as if nothing happened, just the surroundings changed in a heartbeat.
Durza wrote:That depends on the sword. Maybe he has one that acts like the Laer blade did, but on everyone it cuts.
He used the Anathema Blade. It's effective against Primarchs, stopping their healing capabilities so they die. Guilliman was only saved thanks to being put in a Stasis bubble. It does not cause people to have visions.
iDevour wrote:As for Guilliman: He is in a stasis field. That means the second they collapse it and throw a cake filled with meds at him time will start to flow again for him (some say he is already dead, not even in his death throes). So he won't be "tortured mad" by the experience of dying for thousands of years. For him it would be as if nothing happened, just the surroundings changed in a heartbeat.
A stasis field stops the flow of time for your body, but you keep experiencing the last thing you felt indefinitely. The Inquisition often uses it as an interrogation/torture device. For example, think how waterboarding can make you feel like you're drowning, but they can't keep it up for long without actually drowning you. With a stasis field, they can prolong that sensation for centuries.
Ooooookay...i did not know that (it also makes no sense imo xD), but thanks for the info Oh man, i now 2 spacemarines in the DW game im running that would be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissed xD
Meh, not going to retcon them
This is a fantastic thread topic, Chowderhead -- one of the best I've ever seen in the 40k sub-forum. Cheers to you, mate.
Here's my take:
To begin with, I don't see any Primarch humbling themselves to the High Lords -- except Dorn. The real questions are how would they work with each other or would they even be willing to? And, of course, how would they get along with the "real" power, the Inquisition.
The Lion: The Lion's loyalty to the Emperor has always been somewhat ambiguous and, like his Legion, he was very introspective. Of all the primarchs, Jonson would be the most amenable to working with the Inquisition. As to which faction he would support ... well, I think it's safe to say he would probably found his own. I think many of his brothers would be very suspicious of him and Guilliman would likely be the one most willing to work with him.
Khan: He would get right to work on healing the disunities of the Imperium, which would put him in conflict with certain Inquisitors. I think Khan would be eager to work with the other returned primarchs and, along with Sanguinius, try to forster cooperation among those whose personalities clash.
Leman Russ: Not much has changed for the SW in 10,000 years. They still follow their own ways and remain true to what the Emperor made them for -- a loyal if brutal watchdog. Russ would be difficult to work with and despite being personally gregarious would probably end up the most aloof of the returned primarchs. He would struggle against a lot of what he found in M42, especially the Inquisition. Russ's sons are very much like him so I think this is an easy one to imagine.
Rogal Dorn: Outwardly, Dorn would be the best-adjusted of all the returned primarchs. But he carries an immense guilt with him that would keep him at Terra, in attendance to the Golden Throne. Dorn would make trouble, I think, not for the powers-that-be in M42 but for any other primarchs who tried to change the status quo. I can see a very formal, very emotionally empty alliance with Roboute Guilliman. Dorn would look for someone that he could be second-in-command to and Sanguinius and Guilliman are the most likely candidates.
Sanguinius: His return would be a massive ray of light in the GrimDark. Whole sectors would erupt in tears if Sanguinius returned. Strangely, I think the Ecclesiarchy would view him with tremendous suspicion although I doubt worship of the Emperor would trouble him as much as other primarchs. His chief rival would be Guilliman although not because Sanguinius would try to provoke him. Sanguinius would want nothing short of a Second Great Crusade.
Ferrus Mannus: Ferrus would of course be the primarchs' bridge to Mars and he might be more sympathetic to the Mechanicum than to the rest of the Imperium. I think only a strong and cold alliance with Guilliman would keep him in check from efficiently sorting out M42. He would be not-quite-openly despised by the Cardinals of the Ecclesiarchy but win the sympathy of many if not all Puritan Monodominants in the Inquisition.
Guilliman: The man best and least suited to inherit the Imperium, although that would be unseemly with dad still "alive." Guilliman would find ready friends in Ferrus Mannus and Lion'El Jonson, which would make him tremendously powerful. However, he would not be able to take the lead with Sanguinius back. Guilliman would be willing to work with Sanguinius and vice versa (note the BA cleave as closely as they can to the Codex) but although they are both men of vision they have such different styles. Guilliman's paranoia and Batman-like contingency scheming would cause trouble here. He'd also be at odds with any Imperial institution that didn't see things his way, which would be most of them ... initially.
Vulkan: He would be the most sorrowful about the way things are in M42 and that would make him dangerously critical of the status quo. He'd be a readier ally to Sanguinius than Guilliman and Guilliman would not like that. He'd also be aghast at the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy. Dorn would look down on him as "not willing to do what must be done" but also, in a way that would trouble Dorn, agree with Vulkan. Guilliman would take great pains to keep him at arm's length from Russ.
Corax: More than even Vulkan or Russ, Corax would hate the soulcrushing despair of M42. If anyone would decry the Imperium outright, it'd be Corax. Even so, Corax would be a pragmatic supporter of Guilliman because of the ideology of the Codex. Corax would have faith that Guilliman could be trusted to set things right -- although he may be somewhat reluctant to buy totally into the "paradise" of Ultramar.
I believe that if any or all of the primarchs came back they would clean house and probably revolutionize the stupid bureaucratic garbage that rules terra. I feel like a primarch's authority would supercede the high lords of terra and hopefully most imperial citizens and maybe even some of the bureaucratic chumps would support them.
Iandroid wrote:I believe that if any or all of the primarchs came back they would clean house and probably revolutionize the stupid bureaucratic garbage that rules terra. I feel like a primarch's authority would supercede the high lords of terra and hopefully most imperial citizens and maybe even some of the bureaucratic chumps would support them.
That wasn't the case before the Heresy, why would it be the case now?
If the primarchs return, it would open up a few interesting plot devices. Here are a few that I could think of:
• Imperium Civil war between the returning loyal Primarchs and the High Lords of Terra.
• Some of the primarchs that ventured into the eye of terror have become tainted by chaos.
• Abaddon takes full advantage of the civil war and launches a full scale black crusade (with all the traitor legions and warbands involved).
• Ghazz takes advantage of the civil war and declares another full scale waaaugh against Armageddon.
• Tyranids takes advantage of the civil war and launch a full scale invasion against Macragge.
• Cypher approaches terra with the lion sword.
candy.man wrote:
• Some of the primarchs that ventured into the eye of terror have become tainted by chaos.
This is one of the problems that I see for Corax, Leman Russ and possibly Vulkan, who knows where he is. Even if they aren't corrupted they are damaged goods and the HLoT/Inquisition could use this to their advantage.
WGXH wrote:
Manchu wrote:
The Lion: The Lion's loyalty to the Emperor has always been somewhat ambiguous....
Lion El'Jonson, moments after Curze implicates him as a Traitor by keeping him at the foremost reaches of the Galaxy wrote:
I do not care who knows the truth now, tommorow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is it's own reward.
From the man himself.
But the point is loyalty to whom?
It's clear that the Lion expects loyalty to him above all else but where does his loyalty lie? He's made a deal with Peturabo for his own personal gain at a time when you don't know who you can trust. He's a shady character to say the least.
I expect that any of the returning Primarchs would fold into the existing Imperial structure. They may be able to organise a Crusade with their Chapter and its successors but I don't think any of them would be able to organise another Heresy to defy/recreate the IoM.
They might not be happy with how the IoM had turned out, and i hope they would visit their father, but there isn't much they could do as individuals.
If all the loyalist primarchs came back at the same time it's possible that they would get the Great Crusade started up again.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:
If all the loyalist primarchs came back at the same time it's possible that they would get the Great Crusade started up again.
I don't know if this will ever be possible again, the Imperium is in a pretty bad shape at the moment. The Primarchs might be awe inspiring figures that might push the Imperiums military to great feats but there are only a few of them. I'm not sure what real difference they would make.
If the likes of Angron and his brothers got wind that the Primarchs were back i'm sure this will stir them into activity.
The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.
Durza wrote:The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.
You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy. And now they have Titan Legions on their side + Sororitas + Inquisition. I say: let them come and fell the Imperium's Hammer fall on them.
But seriously, Primarchs would wield so much powerful army's now that it would be insane to oppose them.
Durza wrote:The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.
You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy.
Durza wrote:The primarchs coming back would definitely cause a second (proper) Black Crusade, as the daemon primarchs would ally to destroy what they see as the remaining power of the Emperor.
You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy. And now they have Titan Legions on their side + Sororitas + Inquisition. I say: let them come and fell the Imperium's Hammer fall on them.
But seriously, Primarchs would wield so much powerful army's now that it would be insane to oppose them.
As Chowder said, there were Guardsmen during the Crusade. And Titans. And there were Sisters of Silence then. And the Chaos Legions are bigger now, could co ordinate the attack with Huron if they felt like it, and have any number of heretics within the Inquisition thanks to greed and the Alpha Legion.
Just as Guard can crush all of the Astartes with their numbers so they can crush Chaos Legions, and there are millions of Sisters in the galaxy to.
With Primarchs to lead them in battle nothing could stop them.
Brother Coa wrote:
You see, that will be a little hard since there was no billions of Guardsman to stop them in the time of Horus Heresy. And now they have Titan Legions on their side + Sororitas + Inquisition. I say: let them come and fell the Imperium's Hammer fall on them.
Chaos have quite a few Titan Legions themselves you know Coa.
Flaming Skulls, Legio Vulcanum I and Legio Mortis to name but a few.
Brother Coa wrote:Just as Guard can crush all of the Astartes with their numbers so they can crush Chaos Legions, and there are millions of Sisters in the galaxy to.
With Primarchs to lead them in battle nothing could stop them.
Primarchs lead the Chaos legions when they want to too... and never underestimate man's potential for treachery.
@Rice, basically every Forge World i nthe Imperium has it's own Titan Legion. Some of them have even several.
@Durza, I know that most Chaos Primarch are insane soulless behemots. I am just saying that whatever they do they can't defeat Imperium, they just lack manpower and machinery for that, and above all that Imperium now have specialist just for things liek them ( Kaldor Draigo ) - The Grey Knights.
With Primarchs against them they would have even less chance for that.
Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.
Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.
And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?
"Trust me, somewhere deep in the Eye of Terror, the Blood God himself weeps alone in the dark, for he knows in his heart of hearts: no matter what he may do, no matter what incomparable feats he may accomplish, no matter how infinite and unfathomable his glory...he can never be an Ultramarine." - Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.
Now that's just silly. Slaanesh has every uniform in the galaxy for role play, so of course it can be an Ultramarine. Many a marine has woken up in a cold sweat after that dream.
Brother Coa wrote:"Trust me, somewhere deep in the Eye of Terror, the Blood God himself weeps alone in the dark, for he knows in his heart of hearts: no matter what he may do, no matter what incomparable feats he may accomplish, no matter how infinite and unfathomable his glory...he can never be an Ultramarine." - Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.
Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.
Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.
And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?
Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.
Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.
Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.
And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?
Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.
Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.
Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.
And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?
Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.
For the last 10k years, the daemon primarchs have been doing very little. They could lead their legions again if they felt like it, and killing the last loyal primarchs would be seen as a good reason for them.
Daemons find it easy to manifest where belief in the Chaos gods is strong. And guess what? The Chaos Marines believe in the Chaos gods.
The Imperial fleet has never been said to be far superior to the Chaos fleet, especially considering the Chaos fleet uses basically the same ships, and the Navy is engaged elsewhere.
Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.
Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.
And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?
Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.
The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.
iproxtaco wrote:
The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.
Where is this from? If I recall correctly, Horus turned a third of the Imperium's fighting forces against the Emperor. The only forces Abaddon can reliably muster are those from the Eye of Terror. Are the worlds there really so densely packed?
Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.
Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.
And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?
Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.
The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.
The forces Abbadon controls? Please list them..or better yet, get off that idea Horus had nearly half of the imperial forces AND was able to redirect so many possible opponents he had just to fight 3:1 and still lost.
So lets see:
- Word Bearers / Lorgar: isn't likely to follow Abby, isn't he? May usurp the lead-position.. Maybe no WB for Abby..
- Iron Warriors / Perturabo: zero fluff of Perturabo outside of Medrengard. If he doesn't move, who should keep his Warsmiths 'in line' and focused? At best, some are willing to follow Abby....considering istvaan where they didn't care for 'collateral damage' of chaos forces, I wouldn't count on them.
- Night Lords: Not interested in his games. Could share a goal and thus play along but aren't a reliable force to count on for Abby..
- Alpha Legion / 1 of 2 Primarchs left? : They may fight on both sides...so a few to follow Abby.
- Thousand sons / Magnus: obsessed with kicking space wolves... Most likely go for fenris instead of Terra. This may help Abby or not at all.
- Emperors children / (Fulgrim) : if slanessh supports Abby..but they had a few issues before and may also show up in warbands, not as Legio
- death Guard / mortarion: could leave the warp to escape Draigo....but seriously is split in warbands. Without morty they won't move as Legio. Either warbands or a run for Titan in force...
- World Eaters / Angron: Mr angry won't like to miss a fight, could come with some Demons or warbands. If not busy anywhere else.
unlikely to obey and stick with a plan. Could be mislead by his rage and kick something non-imperial...
- Black Legion / abbadon de despoiled : the black legion surely follows wherever Abby leads them.
- renegades who turned to chaos: may join for glory and "vengeance".. wouldn't overestimate their numbers. At best contribute 50% of Abbys force of marines.
- traitor guard: Some will show up, the size hinges on GW's intend. There isn't much in codices and rulebooks so they are tied to FW and BL fluff. Both subcompanies could be wrong ..... Abby will have some and maybe some more of them.
- demons: depend on their "gods" and thus not reliable as the plans of them and Abby may differ..
- dark mech: Abby surely has to call upon favors and may bring some. Still no way as many as horus had.
- cultists and mutants: 5th column of chaos always present somewhere. But expendable and Abby won't rely on them.
Who is doomed?
- the galaxy as it may be eaten by nids, beaten by orks, ruled by crons, etc ?
- the IoM? to much doom and gloom gets old.
- abby? yes he is. Joined the ruinous powers. Got ruined... his future, his career, his legio, his Primarch.
Uh not nine legions under Chaos' control anymore, guys. 10k years hasn't been kind to most of the legions. They ain't at full strength no more. Some are forever shattered. Some can't be counted upon to support a black crusade and some are primarch-less. Or effectively are. Yes, they've gained some chapters too but there's no way their forces are bigger than those of the original Horus Heresy. Attrition. For 10k years. This problem is compounded by the fact that much of their fighting force simply cannot exist outside of the eye for very long. Why do you think Abaddon refuses Daemonhood? Cause he wants to actually be able to attack the Imperium. Most of the Daemon Primarches gave that opportunity up.
BrainDeleted wrote:Uh not nine legions under Chaos' control anymore, guys. 10k years hasn't been kind to most of the legions. They ain't at full strength no more. Some are forever shattered. Some can't be counted upon to support a black crusade and some are primarch-less. Or effectively are. Yes, they've gained some chapters too but there's no way their forces are bigger than those of the original Horus Heresy. Attrition. For 10k years. This problem is compounded by the fact that much of their fighting force simply cannot exist outside of the eye for very long. Why do you think Abaddon refuses Daemonhood? Cause he wants to actually be able to attack the Imperium. Most of the Daemon Primarches gave that opportunity up.
Ruven - "We are all Horus's sons. We all carry his legacy with us. Abaddon is the bane of the Imperium, brother. His name is whispered by a trlion frightened souls. Have you heard the legends? The Imperium even believes him to be Horus's cloned sons. And he bears that legend for a reason. The Imperium will fall. Maybe not this century, and perhaps not the next. But it will fall, and Abaddon will be there, boot on the throat of the Emperor's bloodless corpse. Abaddon will be there the night the Astronomican dies, and the Imperium - at last- falls dark."
Talos - "You still beleive we can win this war? If Horus failed, what chance does his son have?"
Ruven - "Every chance, for no matter what you or I might say, it's a destiny written in the stars themselves. How much larger are the forces of the Eye now, than those that first fled the failed Siege of Terra? How many billions of men, how many countless thousands of ships, have rallied to the Warmaster's banner in ten millennia? Abaddon's might eclipses anything Horus ever commanded. You know that as well as I. If we could refrain from butchering one another for long enough, we'd already be p*****g on the Imperium's bones."
Talos - "Even the Primarchs failed. Terra burned, but rose again. They failed, brother."
Ruven - "That is why you remain blind to our destiny, Talos. You still idolize them. Why?"
Talos - "They were the best of us."
Ruven - "No. There speaks the voice of worship, and brother, you cannot afford to be so naive. The Primarchs were humanity magnified - all of mankind's greatest attributes, balanced by its greatest flaws. For every triumph or flash of preternatural genius, there was a crushing defeat, or another step deeper on the descent to madness. And what are they now? Those that still exist are distant avatars, sworn to the gods they represent, ascended to devote their lives to the Great Game."
Talos - "You are not answering my question, Ruven."
Ruven - "I am, Talos. I am. The Eighth Legion is a weak, unbalanced thing - a broken coalition devoted to its own sadistic pleasure. No higher ambition beyond surviving and slaughtering. That is no secret. I am no longer a Night Lord, but I am still Nostraman. Do you think I enjoyed kneeling before Abaddon? Do you think I relished that the Warmaster rose from another Legion, instead of my own? I loathed Abaddon, yet I respected him, for he will do what no other can. The Gods have marked him, chosen him to remain in the material realm and do what the Primarchs never could." "You asked why I joined the Despoiler, and the answer is the fate of the Primarchs. They were never intended to be the inheritors of this empire. Their fates were sealed with their births, let alone their ascensions. They are echoes , almost gone from the galaxy, engaged in the Great Game of Chaos far from mortal eyes. The empire belongs to use, for we are still here. We are the warriors that remained behind."
Talos - "You truly believe what you are saying. I can tell."
Ruven - "Everyone believes it, Talos, because it is the truth. I left the Legion because I rejected the aimless the butchery, and the naive, worthless hope of simply surviving this war. Survival wasn't enough for me. I wanted to win."
And who is that "we"?
Only Black kLegion is known to follow up with Horus path, and even they are in doubt because GHorus failed big time. All others follow their own Primarch teachings or just go and rampage.
If anything Chaos fight itself more than it's fighting others. Black Legion vs. Emperor's Children is the obvious. Khard the Betrayer to World Eathers is liek Chenkov to the Imperial Guard.
Chaos are really losers. Disunited and their souls sold to the Chaos Gods who made them their slaves and pupets. Truly ironic ending for the former Mankind finest.
BL may show the intend and beliefs of characters, but those could be wrong on this.
" i wanted to win."
Fine, to want and to be able to, aren't the same.
Of course. I didn't comment on what I extracted but it's ok, you're forgiven. I thought it might give a bit of perspective, on the actual forces of Abaddon, and what the Primarchs are doing, which is nothing, really, and they likely wouldn't return to fight unless given a very good motive. Lorgar maybe, but you'll have to read Dark Creed for more.
iproxtaco wrote:Yeah I'd would have guessed you'd pretty much ignore everything I typed.
I feel your pain. It's like talking to a wall with a picture of another wall on it. Please, don't feed the troll, it's not good for your blood pressure.
So your point is that because a CSM is confident they can win, they will win? Because he thinks it's their destiny? Well, I wasn't refuting what the CSM think...And, well, I also don't believe him when he says they're stronger than they were during the heresy. Plenty, plenty, plenty have died and they've gained plenty too but not enough to equal the full force Horus brought against the Imperium. The only advantage they've got is that the Imperium is weaker than it was too.
Just saying, they aren't going to be the ones stomping on the Emperor's corpse. It'll probably be a bunch of factions all at once when it finally happens.
BrainDeleted wrote:So your point is that because a CSM is confident they can win, they will win? Because he thinks it's their destiny? Well, I wasn't refuting what the CSM think...And, well, I also don't believe him when he says they're stronger than they were during the heresy. Plenty, plenty, plenty have died and they've gained plenty too but not enough to equal the full force Horus brought against the Imperium. The only advantage they've got is that the Imperium is weaker than it was too.
Just saying, they aren't going to be the ones stomping on the Emperor's corpse. It'll probably be a bunch of factions all at once when it finally happens.
You're blind then. I've not said Chaos are going to win, in fact, let me quote myself:
iproxtaco wrote: I didn't comment on what I extracted but it's ok, you're forgiven. I thought it might give a bit of perspective, on the actual forces of Abaddon, and what the Primarchs are doing, which is nothing, really, and they likely wouldn't return to fight unless given a very good motive. Lorgar maybe, but you'll have to read Dark Creed for more.
There you go, in case you missed it. I even added some bold just for you. You can choose not to beleive what it says in the book, but it's there. The forces of Chaos are larger than they were at the Heresy, like it or not. Whether they can win as a result of this remains to be seen, but Abaddon is front runner in the galactic competition to see who can unplug the Golden Throne first. I'll quote the REALLY important part though, with added bold for even more emphasis:
Ruven, page 256, Soul Hunter, Aron Dembski-Bowden wrote:Abaddon's might eclipses anything Horus ever commanded. You know that as well as I. If we could refrain from butchering one another for long enough, we'd already be p*****g on the Imperium's bones."
That's right. Out of all that, I probably posted the one line that undermines my apparent argument.
BrainDeleted wrote:Uh not nine legions under Chaos' (Probably unclear writing on my part Obviously they're under Chaos' control. I meant to say Abaddon's) control anymore, guys....Some are forever shattered. Some can't be counted upon to support a black crusade....Why do you think Abaddon refuses Daemonhood? Cause he wants to actually be able to attack the Imperium. Most of the Daemon Primarches gave that opportunity up.
Just so you know what I've said.
Sounds like he doesn't expressly command them all to me from your bit of chaos slanted fluff. Sounds like it says IF he could, he might be stronger than Horus. A bad 'un doesn't control a force greater than Horus did.
And to be honest, a random quote of fluff that says Chaos will win kind of made you sound like you were saying Chaos will win.......It would have been more clear if you highlighted important parts before or said underneath, there, that supports my point of xxxxxxx. Just the fluff quote doesn't help me much since I forgot whatever you said a couple pages back, I'm not blind, thankyouverymuchkindsir.
I'm gonna go with mild optical impairment then, but I've quoted myself already. Yes, I could have posted that at the bottom, but I posted it later, and you missed it.
That's kind of the point. The Forces of Chaos in the Eye are much more than what Horus commanded. When Abaddon calls, they all unite, but they don't unite for long enough to make it count.
Perhaps a better question: What % of the forces in the eye can actually leave the eye for long enough to mount an assault to the galactic center? The forces in the eye preheresy were probably pretty darned expansive before any CSM got there anyhow but are too closely linked with the warp to amount to much outside of the immediate vicinity of the eye.
Yeah, missed that, too busy reading and responding to huge block quote and got posted under while I was reading/responding. Running on 20/20 here.
When I say Forces of Chaos, I don't mean Daemons. They're unreliable, and they aren't included in what Ruven says. So really, everything. Warships, Astartes, Titans, the Lost and the Dammed, Dark Mechanicus, they could all leave. But like Ruven also says, there's not enough unity. Everyone's out for number 1 in the Eye of Terror. It's not unlike the Imperium. Allegiances are made out of self-interest, to further only selfish goals, survival being the top one. Rarely does Abaddon manage to unite the Eye under a common objective, but since the 13th Crusade was, for all intents and purposes, a success for Abaddon, it shows what they can do.
True enough, but the same could be said of a number of things characters in 40k believe. Ruven isn't a fanatic. In that snippet he says he loathed Abaddon, he did not serve the Despoiler for his charming charisma.
When a person that despises you and is prepared to slit your throat should you say anything that could not be true begrudgingly agrees with something like this, it lends weight to how believable it is. I could present the information from Talos's point of view, that's two characters now, both are from quite different perspectives.
iproxtaco wrote:Yeah I'd would have guessed you'd pretty much ignore everything I typed.
I feel your pain. It's like talking to a wall with a picture of another wall on it. Please, don't feed the troll, it's not good for your blood pressure.
Reminds me of conversations about Custodes and Tau
Durza wrote:Manpower: Nine legions of Space Marines, an unknown number of chapters, various renegades, billions of traitor guardsmen, an infinite number of daemons, whoever they corrupt on their way to Terra. And two more primarchs.
Machinery: A fleet which arguably rivals what the Imperium can bring to oppose them without leaving themselves open to other threats. Titans, half the Heresy's Mechanicum, forge worlds they have captured, Warp powered tech.
And Draigo is trapped in the Warp right now, so he won't reallly be much help, will he?
Who would get involved? The CSM have had 10K years to go at the IoM again. but they havent. So why would they if some primarchs came back? Renegades mostly do their own thing. billions of traitors are outmatched by trillions of loyalists. daemons cant manifest easily outside the EoT. The Imperial fleet is far superior to the Traitors. Chaos are losers.
The forces Abaddon controls eclipse anything Horus ever commanded. If he were to work with Huron, the Imperium would be doomed.
The forces Abbadon controls? Please list them..or better yet, get off that idea
Yes, because then he wouldn't have to go to the trouble of proving you wrong.
Horus had nearly half of the imperial forces AND was able to redirect so many possible opponents he had just to fight 3:1 and still lost.
It's a lot harder to break into a fortress than defend it, which was what Terra was. And your 3:1 ration is a bit off there. Thousand Sons weren't helping, Emperor's Children went around torturing civilians, didn't fight much. And the Chaos legions had just purged their numbers of loyalists.
So lets see:
- Word Bearers / Lorgar: isn't likely to follow Abby, isn't he? May usurp the lead-position.. Maybe no WB for Abby..
And you're basing this on what precisely? Nothing? It says in the codex that all the traitor legions have acknowledged Abaddon as Horus' successor and Warmaster.
- Iron Warriors / Perturabo: zero fluff of Perturabo outside of Medrengard. If he doesn't move, who should keep his Warsmiths 'in line' and focused? At best, some are willing to follow Abby....considering istvaan where they didn't care for 'collateral damage' of chaos forces, I wouldn't count on them.
So again, you're dismissing them because you feel like it.
- Night Lords: Not interested in his games. Could share a goal and thus play along but aren't a reliable force to count on for Abby..
Why exactly would they consider their revenge a game?
- Alpha Legion / 1 of 2 Primarchs left? : They may fight on both sides...so a few to follow Abby.
No, they fight for Chaos. And they set up cults throughout the Imperium, as well as being responsible for the corruption of chapters and the infiltration of Imperial organisations. Why exactly do you think they'd fight on both sides?
- Thousand sons / Magnus: obsessed with kicking space wolves... Most likely go for fenris instead of Terra. This may help Abby or not at all.
I think you're a bit mixed up there. The Thousand Sons aren't actually idiots, whatever you seem to think.
- Emperors children / (Fulgrim) : if slanessh supports Abby..but they had a few issues before and may also show up in warbands, not as Legion
Since Abaddon has the mark of Slaanesh, why wouldn't it support him exactly? And how would them showing up as warbands hinder them at all?
- death Guard / mortarion: could leave the warp to escape Draigo....but seriously is split in warbands. Without morty they won't move as Legio. Either warbands or a run for Titan in force...
What are you on about? Draigo hasn't been hunting down the Death Guard you know. And I don't really see how warbands are any different to companies or chapters. You seem to think that every Chaos legion would rather destroy a minor planet than Terra. Even though Terra is their greatest grudge, whatever may have happened in the intervening years.
- World Eaters / Angron: Mr angry won't like to miss a fight, could come with some Demons or warbands. If not busy anywhere else. unlikely to obey and stick with a plan. Could be mislead by his rage and kick something non-imperial...
'Sorry, Abaccon, I can't go settle my ancient grudge against my brothers and fulfill the oath I took to destroy the entire Imperium, I have to go fight Tau.' Yeah, that's likely.
- Black Legion / abbadon de despoiled : the black legion surely follows wherever Abby leads them.
Finally, you say something that makes sense.
- renegades who turned to chaos: may join for glory and "vengeance".. wouldn't overestimate their numbers. At best contribute 50% of Abbys force of marines.
You do realise that 50% of Abaddon's force is a lot, right?
- traitor guard: Some will show up, the size hinges on GW's intend. There isn't much in codices and rulebooks so they are tied to FW and BL fluff. Both subcompanies could be wrong ..... Abby will have some and maybe some more of them.
If they want shelter in the Eye, they swear allegiance to one Lord or another, and that eventually leads back to Abaddon or one of the other major champions.
- demons: depend on their "gods" and thus not reliable as the plans of them and Abby may differ..
There isn't much differing you can get in 'Let's destroy the Imperium.' The gods want the Imperium either destroyed or worshipping them. They've chosen Abaddon to lead their forces. Either their servants follow them, or they find themselves with very little godly help. This goes for traitor legions and guard as well.
- dark mech: Abby surely has to call upon favors and may bring some. Still no way as many as horus had.
Yeah, because there's no way that the Dark Mechanicum would want revenge on Terra and Mars or anything. Seriously, the way you're going on, you'd think that Abaddon is the only Chaos worshipper who wants the Imperium gone.
- cultists and mutants: 5th column of chaos always present somewhere. But expendable and Abby won't rely on them.
The fact that they're expendable means he needs them to do something. Treachery within a force can make victory a lot easier.
Who is doomed?
- the galaxy as it may be eaten by nids, beaten by orks, ruled by crons, etc ?
- the IoM? to much doom and gloom gets old.
So they are doomed, but they're bored of it? What?
- abby? yes he is. Joined the ruinous powers. Got ruined... his future, his career, his legio, his Primarch.
Yeah, immortality and incredible power sure is a terrible life.
The problem with Chaos is, it's divided, no pun intended.
Abby can manage to coerce or subdue part of the other legions and renegade marines to his cause but looking at how many took part in the last crusade I don't see that impossible
force to fight against.
Even the traitor primarch are to busy with their own business to care, expecially the deamon princes.
Durza wrote:
Yes, because then he wouldn't have to go to the trouble of proving you wrong.
Trouble?
Or not so easy to do.. maybe not really possible given the fluff provided by GW.
Durza wrote: And your 3:1 ration is a bit off there. Thousand Sons weren't helping, Emperor's Children went around torturing civilians, didn't fight much. And the Chaos legions had just purged their numbers of loyalists.
Off?
It fits istvaan, the siege of terra, etc.
The ultramarines were absent mostly, the Dark Angels maybe too far out and the space wolves also haven't got fluff what they did between Propsero and the siege.
- istvaan: 4/5 traitors and 4 hidden traitors = 8(9) vs 3 loyalists.
- terra : 9 traitors vs 3 loyalists .
Doesn't look like a 3:1 is off. Surely 7 years had a lot of other events we may not know of yet and the 3:1 just sounds right for the major fights. But why didn't the oh so mighty chaos legions perform a face off, 1:1 ? Lack the will to go the full length of a path, even when it costs your own life. They fled and they will flee again....
Durza wrote:
And you're basing this on what precisely? Nothing? It says in the codex that all the traitor legions have acknowledged Abaddon as Horus' successor and Warmaster.
Warmaster? A imperial title? Traitor legions no longer exist. Did you miss GW's hint on loyalists = second founding > chapters, traitors = splintered into warbands?
Durza wrote:
So again, you're dismissing them because you feel like it.
No , because anything about IW tells us nothing of Perturabo as still in charge of a legion and caring for this 'long war' and thus you deal with warbands that may or may not follow.
Durza wrote:
Why exactly would they consider their revenge a game?
Why not?
They lost their way already. Their own primarch ended their homeworld to stop growing more of them. Revenge? Unimportant to some as you could see with the raptor cults.
Durza wrote:
No, they fight for Chaos. And they set up cults throughout the Imperium, as well as being responsible for the corruption of chapters and the infiltration of Imperial organisations. Why exactly do you think they'd fight on both sides?
Its possible they play this secrets inside secrets too hard to still know where they stand....
But seriously the audio-drama with the world eaters prevented from intercepting the raven guards escape from istvaan seems to hint at more than just pure "we capture it for chaos". But we' ll see in the HH series to come. Doubt they change them but the idea is well liked at dakka since 'Legion'.
Durza wrote:
I think you're a bit mixed up there. The Thousand Sons aren't actually idiots, whatever you seem to think.
To quote Durza:
Durza wrote:
Thousand Sons weren't helping,
Precedence.
And their solitary ways pre-heresy haven't changed much afterwards. Idiots? Surely not. They have plans, plans that may not involve Abby's success at all. Did any of the traitors speak up for them at nicaea?
Durza wrote:
And how would them showing up as warbands hinder them at all?
Warbands aren't run the same way as legions. A group of warbands seeking sensations may run off in several directions when you don't keep an eye on them. A legion would do as ordered. Thats the difference. Pre-heresy EC would perform well, post heresy EC may cause more trouble than the distraction they provide is worth.
Durza wrote:
And I don't really see how warbands are any different to companies or chapters. You seem to think that every Chaos legion would rather destroy a minor planet than Terra. Even though Terra is their greatest grudge, whatever may have happened in the intervening years.
So what is it? chaos legion or warband? Can't have both....
I don't think they destroy minor targets instead of terra. But I firmly believe an organized force of disciplined troops would stick with the plan where this wild collection of warbands , cults and self-aggrandizing champions isn't going to remember the plan 1 day after Abby told them of it. Chaos is chaotic and thus soo many will follow their own agenda and drag everyone else into that conflict. In this case, the xeno are the "laughing third" ( forgive me if that doesn't fly in english ).
Durza wrote:
'Sorry, Abaccon, I can't go settle my ancient grudge against my brothers and fulfill the oath I took to destroy the entire Imperium, I have to go fight Tau.' Yeah, that's likely.
Are you unaware of the whining of the Tau fanbase if they cannot participate?
What exactly did Angron achieve except visiting Armageddon once?
Durza wrote:
You do realise that 50% of Abaddon's force is a lot, right?
Depends on the value behind 100%.
If 100% are 1000, 50% isn't much.
So please enlighten us all how many chaos marines are available in M41.
Durza wrote:
Seriously, the way you're going on, you'd think that Abaddon is the only Chaos worshipper who wants the Imperium gone.
The chaos worshippers want personal gain.
The imperium is not important if it doesn't interfere with that.
Abby wants it gone but he's old. The young ones want a galaxy of chaos and thus any order would be not welcome.
Won't matter if Eldar, Necrons or Tau replace the IoM as major 'force of order'.
Durza wrote:
So they are doomed, but they're bored of it? What?
Everyone is doomed. Or not. Watch GW's course in 6th.
Durza wrote:
Yeah, immortality and incredible power sure is a terrible life.
Durza wrote:
Yes, because then he wouldn't have to go to the trouble of proving you wrong.
Trouble?
Or not so easy to do.. maybe not really possible given the fluff provided by GW.
Listing every single force Abaddon controls? No, I wouldn't be able to do that, but I'll maintain that it would be separate from proving you 'wrong'.
Durza wrote: And your 3:1 ration is a bit off there. Thousand Sons weren't helping, Emperor's Children went around torturing civilians, didn't fight much. And the Chaos legions had just purged their numbers of loyalists.
Off?
It fits istvaan, the siege of terra, etc.
The ultramarines were absent mostly, the Dark Angels maybe too far out and the space wolves also haven't got fluff what they did between Propsero and the siege.
- istvaan: 4/5 traitors and 4 hidden traitors = 8(9) vs 3 loyalists.
- terra : 9 traitors vs 3 loyalists .
Doesn't look like a 3:1 is off. Surely 7 years had a lot of other events we may not know of yet and the 3:1 just sounds right for the major fights. But why didn't the oh so mighty chaos legions perform a face off, 1:1 ? Lack the will to go the full length of a path, even when it costs your own life. They fled and they will flee again....
It's a 3:1 ratio alright. The Thousand Sons, whilst they probably didn't directly assault the Fortress of Terra, were there, summoning Daemons and using their sorcery to break down the Emperor's wards. Like Durza has said, assaulting a fortress is much more difficult than defending a fortress. Whilst assaulting, numbers mean little outside of attrition.
Durza wrote:
And you're basing this on what precisely? Nothing? It says in the codex that all the traitor legions have acknowledged Abaddon as Horus' successor and Warmaster.
Warmaster? A imperial title? Traitor legions no longer exist. Did you miss GW's hint on loyalists = second founding > chapters, traitors = splintered into warbands?
Isn't it strange that the Imperium kept the title of Warmaster despite the infamy it holds? Abaddon is the Warmaster, Horus's successor.
Durza wrote:
So again, you're dismissing them because you feel like it.
No , because anything about IW tells us nothing of Perturabo as still in charge of a legion and caring for this 'long war' and thus you deal with warbands that may or may not follow.
Dead Sky, Black Sun has Pertrurabo still concerned with the actions of his Legion. If he were to re-take the field, the Iron Warriors would follow thanks to their central command base and the fact that they remain largely unified.
Durza wrote:
Why exactly would they consider their revenge a game?
Why not?
They lost their way already. Their own primarch ended their homeworld to stop growing more of them. Revenge? Unimportant to some as you could see with the raptor cults.
The motive matters little. When called upon, the Raptors will fly due to their own craving for violence, which Abaddon can provide better than any other.
Durza wrote:
No, they fight for Chaos. And they set up cults throughout the Imperium, as well as being responsible for the corruption of chapters and the infiltration of Imperial organisations. Why exactly do you think they'd fight on both sides?
Its possible they play this secrets inside secrets too hard to still know where they stand....
But seriously the audio-drama with the world eaters prevented from intercepting the raven guards escape from istvaan seems to hint at more than just pure "we capture it for chaos". But we' ll see in the HH series to come. Doubt they change them but the idea is well liked at dakka since 'Legion'.
That was 10,000 years ago. Hunt for Voldorius gives the true state of the Alpha Legion, broken warbands like most other Legions.
Durza wrote:
I think you're a bit mixed up there. The Thousand Sons aren't actually idiots, whatever you seem to think.
To quote Durza:
Durza wrote:
Thousand Sons weren't helping,
Precedence.
And their solitary ways pre-heresy haven't changed much afterwards. Idiots? Surely not. They have plans, plans that may not involve Abby's success at all. Did any of the traitors speak up for them at nicaea?
12 Legions spoke with the Thousand Sons. At most 8 of them were Loyalists, since the Wolves were opposed.
Durza wrote:
And how would them showing up as warbands hinder them at all?
Warbands aren't run the same way as legions. A group of warbands seeking sensations may run off in several directions when you don't keep an eye on them. A legion would do as ordered. Thats the difference. Pre-heresy EC would perform well, post heresy EC may cause more trouble than the distraction they provide is worth.
Which is a point that has been made a few times now.
Durza wrote:
And I don't really see how warbands are any different to companies or chapters. You seem to think that every Chaos legion would rather destroy a minor planet than Terra. Even though Terra is their greatest grudge, whatever may have happened in the intervening years.
So what is it? chaos legion or warband? Can't have both....
I don't think they destroy minor targets instead of terra. But I firmly believe an organized force of disciplined troops would stick with the plan where this wild collection of warbands , cults and self-aggrandizing champions isn't going to remember the plan 1 day after Abby told them of it. Chaos is chaotic and thus soo many will follow their own agenda and drag everyone else into that conflict. In this case, the xeno are the "laughing third" ( forgive me if that doesn't fly in english ).
Which is a point that has been made a few times now. Regardless, not every warband is a bunch of raving directionless psychopaths. They wouldn't be able to function without some semblance of order to what they do, order than can be harnessed by Abaddon if he plays his cards right. Regardless, direction can be given. Leave the Skulltakers of Zhufor to charge down the center in a blood-rage, leave the warband of the Exalted to sneak round the side, therein lies balance. Effective, but admittedly not easy to coordinate.
Durza wrote:
'Sorry, Abaccon, I can't go settle my ancient grudge against my brothers and fulfill the oath I took to destroy the entire Imperium, I have to go fight Tau.' Yeah, that's likely.
Are you unaware of the whining of the Tau fanbase if they cannot participate?
What exactly did Angron achieve except visiting Armageddon once?
The deaths of nearly 100 Grey Knights, the deaths of countless billions of people, the scoring of several worlds. Then there's the Dominion of Fire. The galaxy is in a permanent state of attrition. These things ware the Imperium down.
Durza wrote:
You do realise that 50% of Abaddon's force is a lot, right?
Depends on the value behind 100%.
If 100% are 1000, 50% isn't much.
So please enlighten us all how many chaos marines are available in M41.
Clearly it's more than 1000 though. No one can give you exact numbers for everything, especially not this, the same how you can't give the exact numbers of Astartes in the Imperium or at the Eye of Terror's defense. The numbers would likely spiral up into the high tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, considering their numbers are more than they were at the Heresy.
Durza wrote:
Seriously, the way you're going on, you'd think that Abaddon is the only Chaos worshipper who wants the Imperium gone.
The chaos worshippers want personal gain.
The imperium is not important if it doesn't interfere with that.
Abby wants it gone but he's old. The young ones want a galaxy of chaos and thus any order would be not welcome.
Won't matter if Eldar, Necrons or Tau replace the IoM as major 'force of order'.
This point has been made several times now, a specific motive is necessarily required.
Durza wrote:
So they are doomed, but they're bored of it? What?
Everyone is doomed. Or not. Watch GW's course in 6th.
Things stay as they are, an age of constant attrition warfare, one the Imperium is losing.
Son of Ultramar wrote:The problem with Chaos is, it's divided, no pun intended.
Abby can manage to coerce or subdue part of the other legions and renegade marines to his cause but looking at how many took part in the last crusade I don't see that impossible
force to fight against.
Even the traitor primarch are to busy with their own business to care, expecially the deamon princes.
And here is the answer we were looking.
Abby might be Warmaster in Horus place, but he will never lead an army like Horus had.
He can't even unite other Chaos Legions to aid him.
The only reason his Legion remains strong and powerful is his policy: "Everybody's welcome here".
Then he act like IG, defeating his enemies with numbers alone. But without support of other Legions he is crushed every time by Imperials who have much more manpower then him ( except 13'th Black Crusade who is still going with Imperial troops on the way and Imperial Navy controlling the Cadian System space ).
Horus never really united the other Chaos Legions either. The Night Lords were off on their own war with the Dark Angels, and had really turned way before Horus. The Word Bearers were the architects of the Heresy and were off failing against the Ultramarines. The Alpha Legion were supposedly double agents. The Emperor's Children could care less about his grand strategies and just wanted to probe some Earthlings, plus their Primarch was possessed at that point. The Death Guard were already zombie tools of Chaos. The Iron Warriors were venting their frustration by killing enemies and allies both. Angron had a score to settle with his dad. etc. etc.
Horus didn't unite jack squat, he just got lucky the other Primarchs also happened to be rebelling.
Omegus wrote:Horus never really united the other Chaos Legions either. The Night Lords were off on their own war with the Dark Angels, and had really turned way before Horus. The Word Bearers were the architects of the Heresy and were off failing against the Ultramarines. The Alpha Legion were supposedly double agents. The Emperor's Children could care less about his grand strategies and just wanted to probe some Earthlings, plus their Primarch was possessed at that point. The Death Guard were already zombie tools of Chaos. The Iron Warriors were venting their frustration by killing enemies and allies both. Angron had a score to settle with his dad. etc. etc.
Horus didn't unite jack squat, he just got lucky the other Primarchs also happened to be rebelling.
That's my point, Chaos will never be truly united to crush down the Imperium. They may win a battle or 2 but they will never win the war.
The whole setting of 40K is dedicated to the inevitable decline into Chaos.
Abaddon and his ilk probably won't accomplish any meaningful victories, but they do their part by causing devastation and keeping the Imperium a hegemonic and oppressive nightmare state. Combined with ever increasing rates of psychic awakenings, it's only a matter of time before we have another Eye of Terror-esque cataclysm that swallows up the whole galaxy.
iproxtaco wrote:
Isn't it strange that the Imperium kept the title of Warmaster despite the infamy it holds? Abaddon is the Warmaster, Horus's successor.
So if he runs with an imperial title, he has to take the dutys that come with this too. Hi Abby, back into the emperors fold?
( otohGW explained the title was rarely used after the heresy and different ones are common now. Example: Lord Solar Macharius. )
iproxtaco wrote:
Things stay as they are, an age of constant attrition warfare, one the Imperium is losing.
If things stay , nothing changes. To lose would imply things move... which cannot happen as the setup is based on playable factions.
Thus there is no winner ever. Without a winner , there is no loser.
Omegus wrote:The whole setting of 40K is dedicated to the inevitable decline into Chaos.
Abaddon and his ilk probably won't accomplish any meaningful victories, but they do their part by causing devastation and keeping the Imperium a hegemonic and oppressive nightmare state. Combined with ever increasing rates of psychic awakenings, it's only a matter of time before we have another Eye of Terror-esque cataclysm that swallows up the whole galaxy.
iproxtaco wrote:
Things stay as they are, an age of constant attrition warfare, one the Imperium is losing.
If things stay , nothing changes. To lose would imply things move... which cannot happen as the setup is based on playable factions.
Thus there is no winner ever. Without a winner , there is no loser.
The timeline is locked, it will remain so in 6th ed, so the current state of things will not change. But this is the background forum, where the future is dealt with as if it IS happening.
iproxtaco wrote:
Things stay as they are, an age of constant attrition warfare, one the Imperium is losing.
If things stay , nothing changes. To lose would imply things move... which cannot happen as the setup is based on playable factions.
Thus there is no winner ever. Without a winner , there is no loser.
The timeline is locked, it will remain so in 6th ed, so the current state of things will not change. But this is the background forum, where the future is dealt with as if it IS happening.
Fine.
Open your rulebook, page 116 and behold:
IoM wins in the end.
too bad codices mislead people to beleive they got a chance....
iproxtaco wrote: Things stay as they are, an age of constant attrition warfare, one the Imperium is losing.
If things stay , nothing changes. To lose would imply things move... which cannot happen as the setup is based on playable factions. Thus there is no winner ever. Without a winner , there is no loser.
The timeline is locked, it will remain so in 6th ed, so the current state of things will not change. But this is the background forum, where the future is dealt with as if it IS happening.
Fine.
Open your rulebook, page 116 and behold:
IoM wins in the end.
too bad codices mislead people to beleive they got a chance....
Your point? It's as relevant as Ruven saying it's the destiny of Abaddon to destroy the Imperium and rule the galaxy.
If that's true then the Guard and Space Marine codices are in the same basket, giving people false hope that the Imperium will survive.
If that's true then the Guard and Space Marine codices are in the same basket, giving people false hope that the Imperium will survive.
Every codex gives false hope on victory.
Thus I am relying on the book o' rules, which is a source for 40k overriding BL novels so hard they are shredded in that process...
In the background, the is only war.
On the table, there lies victory or defeat in OUR hands.
But final victory? Could you provide a setup that has gone there? Even rpg's keep the future of a setting in a state of threats to come.
40k runs the same course.
The day the primarchs return is the day of GW sold to a foreign company and Goto returns as the primary author of fluff...
Point? If it's something along the lines of "all this is pointless because GW wont continue the story" then you can stop right now. This is the background forum. Any talk of the future is dealt with in hypothecticals and speculation based off of the facts GW has given us.
Still, you can't rely on an anecdotal legend, no matter where it's from.
iproxtaco wrote:Point? If it's something along the lines of "all this is pointless because GW wont continue the story" then you can stop right now. This is the background forum. Any talk of the future is dealt with in hypothecticals and speculation based off of the facts GW has given us.
Still, you can't rely on an anecdotal legend, no matter where it's from.
Its not pointless.
Your reply is.
Fact: BRB describes the future of the galaxy on the map.
Bottom line: I don't have to speculate as its written right there.
iproxtaco wrote:Point? If it's something along the lines of "all this is pointless because GW wont continue the story" then you can stop right now. This is the background forum. Any talk of the future is dealt with in hypothecticals and speculation based off of the facts GW has given us.
Still, you can't rely on an anecdotal legend, no matter where it's from.
Its not pointless.
Your reply is.
Fact: BRB describes the future of the galaxy on the map.
Bottom line: I don't have to speculate as its written right there.
Hmm. Are you being serious? It's a legend presented from the perspective of the Imperium, it's there to give hope. It's not fact, it's not telling us what will happen in the future, it's a legend.
You are right, I have nothing to say on wild theories and fan dreams of Chaos defeating the Imperium.
And this is the first time I posted my Chaois tribute. It speaks the truth about Chaos.
Brother Coa wrote:You are right, I have nothing to say on wild theories and fan dreams of Chaos defeating the Imperium.
And this is the first time I posted my Chaois tribute. It speaks the truth about Chaos.
There are no wild theories posted by Chaos fans concerning the potential victory of Abaddon in this thread, but ignore that fact. If there were, they wouldn't be wild, and they wouldn't be dreams.
iproxtaco wrote:
Hmm. Are you being serious? It's a legend presented from the perspective of the Imperium, it's there to give hope. It's not fact, it's not telling us what will happen in the future, it's a legend.
What else should I Be?
Its written white on black , its presented as the present and the future and its a valid fluff source.
Youre just in denial good sir.
The fact of the imperiums destiny are irrefutable. But I can live with traitors dying with their false beliefs of a victory of chaos, as the major loser in any chaos enterprise are the minions of chaos..
iproxtaco wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:You are right, I have nothing to say on wild theories and fan dreams of Chaos defeating the Imperium.
And this is the first time I posted my Chaos tribute. It speaks the truth about Chaos.
There are no wild theories posted by Chaos fans concerning the potential victory of Abaddon in this thread, but ignore that fact. If there were, they wouldn't be wild, and they wouldn't be dreams.
Potential? Abby's potential was explained by Rogal Dorn back in the day before the heresy.
But feel free to rant on on this so called victory, as there are multiple contenders and IMO chaos is bound to ruin itself.
As usual, as seen in every games - universe.
iproxtaco wrote:
Hmm. Are you being serious? It's a legend presented from the perspective of the Imperium, it's there to give hope. It's not fact, it's not telling us what will happen in the future, it's a legend.
What else should I Be?
Its written white on black , its presented as the present and the future and its a valid fluff source.
Youre just in denial good sir.
The fact of the imperiums destiny are irrefutable. But I can live with traitors dying with their false beliefs of a victory of chaos, as the major loser in any chaos enterprise are the minions of chaos..
Now you're just trolling. This is the kind of thing I expect from Brother Coa.
iproxtaco wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:You are right, I have nothing to say on wild theories and fan dreams of Chaos defeating the Imperium.
And this is the first time I posted my Chaos tribute. It speaks the truth about Chaos.
There are no wild theories posted by Chaos fans concerning the potential victory of Abaddon in this thread, but ignore that fact. If there were, they wouldn't be wild, and they wouldn't be dreams.
Potential? Abby's potential was explained by Rogal Dorn back in the day before the heresy.
But feel free to rant on on this so called victory, as there are multiple contenders and IMO chaos is bound to ruin itself.
As usual, as seen in every games - universe.
I think maybe the important parts of this explanation is that it was before the Heresy, and it was Rogal Dorn, borderline fanatic loyalist who is now dead.
iproxtaco wrote: Now I am just trolling. This is the kind of thing I expect from Brother Coa.
No one is ranting, I am just trolling again.
Fixed it for ya.
Don't have to thank me. If youre available as serious poster again, we may continue until then good night.
Good day to you sir, I have enjoyed yet another one of our Chaos versus the Imperium multiple quote arguments, and as usual, it peters out when you have literally nothing left to argue with. It pains me to see someone I thought was reliable fellow poster resort to thing as low as trolling when they've run out of anything to counter with, but further, it pains me greatly to see said person unable to come up with something a bit more clever than "noah yoor a troll" when they are called out on it. Hopefully, we can do this again sometime, but if it occurs again, please, do not resort to trolling, it does not but belittle you.
iproxtaco wrote:
Hmm. Are you being serious? It's a legend presented from the perspective of the Imperium, it's there to give hope. It's not fact, it's not telling us what will happen in the future, it's a legend.
What else should I Be?
Its written white on black , its presented as the present and the future and its a valid fluff source.
Youre just in denial good sir.
The fact of the imperiums destiny are irrefutable. But I can live with traitors dying with their false beliefs of a victory of chaos, as the major loser in any chaos enterprise are the minions of chaos..
Now you're just trolling. This is the kind of thing I expect from Brother Coa.
And this Chaos trolling in every thread is a thing I expect from you traitor.
iproxtaco wrote: Hmm. Are you being serious? It's a legend presented from the perspective of the Imperium, it's there to give hope. It's not fact, it's not telling us what will happen in the future, it's a legend.
What else should I Be? Its written white on black , its presented as the present and the future and its a valid fluff source. Youre just in denial good sir.
The fact of the imperiums destiny are irrefutable. But I can live with traitors dying with their false beliefs of a victory of chaos, as the major loser in any chaos enterprise are the minions of chaos..
Now you're just trolling. This is the kind of thing I expect from Brother Coa.
And this Chaos trolling in every thread is a thing I expect from you traitor.
You're hilarious Coa, god dammed hilarious. You know not of what you speak, but humor me, go and find one attempt at trolling in this thread from me. Saying 'your whole argument' will not be accepted on account of being stupid.
I, for one, think that if they did come back, it would incite civil war. No one on Terra (in a high position) would be immediately welcoming - after all, these guys show up from nowhere and are threatening to take command.
The whole setting is that Chaos is winNING, not won or will win. Anything could happen to turn the tide, but the setting wouldn't be grimdark if all of the Imperium's victories weren't pyrrhic and if they weren't losing the greater battle. I thought this was elementary.
Nah, it would still be grimdark, as they would be treated with suspicion, would be aghast at the state of the Imperium (much like Dorn was, even though he played a part in it, and which is probably why he killed himself), and spark off a bunch of civil wars further harming the Imperium.
iproxtaco wrote: you had no real way of backing up.
I did back all this up in the past 7'th thread, you just denied all that and start saying nonsense of united Chaos crushing the Imperium.
And you say that I am making things up. At least I am not saying complete nonsense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AchillesFTW wrote:Didn't you hear, the Space Wolves Fleet beat the Segmentum Pacificus Navy.
They really didd this?
What about that rule that no SM chapter can't have fleet that can rival that of Segmentum one?
iproxtaco wrote: I have enjoyed yet another one of our Chaos versus the Imperium multiple quote arguments, and as usual, it peters out when you have literally nothing left to argue with.
AS usual, your lack of any believable argument in favor of your own POV misleads you to ignore whatever I say. Why don't you start another pointless "who will win" thread if you deem it a worthy subject? Maybe you know better but can't admit it? I for one had enough time spent on another thread yesterday to refrain from lenghty arguments in a debate with someone lost to his flawed course of chaos fanboidom. Thus the only thing I am guilty of, is to reply to a questionable claim when I had the chance to do something useful instead.
iproxtaco wrote: It pains me to see someone I thought was reliable fellow poster resort to thing as low as trolling when they've run out of anything to counter with, but further, it pains me greatly to see said person unable to come up with something a bit more clever than "noah yoor a troll" when they are called out on it.
Do you really expect me to take this "pains me" and "reliable" as serious after all you said? I am not so new to miss when a poster lost his way because someone is wrong on the interwebz and the course of your unholy crusade to prove a certain poster as wrong or troll or [deleted to stay clear of your level of veiled insults] is obvious.
So maybe just for once consider : - the design of chaos is not different at GW than anywhere else ( partially as they like copy&paste very much ) - chaos is the 'threat, but will splinter into infighting and finally lose each time' faction. - codices provide promotional quotes and the claim to win. A BRB has not to and provides a general overview. - the inevitable fall of empires is proven as none ever stood the test of time. - the IoM is put on this "end of days" course , at least since 3rd ed ( when I firstly got involved ) - but it never matters as the endurance of a million worlds means GW can drag this out across dozens of editions as the loss of worlds is irrelevant and wouldn't even be noticed .
There is no way to run out of any so called "counter".
ExaMples:
The 5th ed page116 box is a shortened variant of 3rd ed page 34. The idea of a rematch is thus not new, not a throwaway line.
The setup hasn't changed. But the details have. 3rd ed page 114 to 115, classification of worlds in the IoM. Compare this to 5th ed. 3rd provided numbers and population sizes. 5th ??? the sense of scale has been lost, the little grasp they had gone
3rd ed page 120, the 'full circle' as I may call it. Nothing of chaos winning but 'those who are not human'.....which hints at older races dwindling and newer coming to the fore. the minions of chaos fight a lost cause. Others will rule the galaxy and their efforts wasted.
The path is laid out. The IoM is the leviathan everyone pokes with pointy sticks but those are too blunt to kill it.
Primarchs are kept as jokers to do a final version if the setting is burnt out. Abby is expendable. Hes the 'chosen' of 40k.... and shares the fate of the whfb 'chosen'..
iproxtaco wrote:Hopefully, we can do this again sometime, but if it occurs again, please, do not resort to trolling, it does not but belittle you.
Can't drop that idea of me trolling someone, can't you? I am sure I never intentionally did as I tend to stick with the rules which I agreed to abide.
UselessSage wrote:HLoT vs. a Primarch?
The winner is the side the Imperial Navy backs, specifically Battle Fleet Solar.
The organization may tend to one side or the other, but why should the HLoT act as a monolithic block?
iproxtaco wrote:
I have enjoyed yet another one of our Chaos versus the Imperium multiple quote arguments, and as usual, it peters out when you have literally nothing left to argue with.
AS usual, your lack of any believable argument in favor of your own POV misleads you to ignore whatever I say.
Do tell, what is this misterious point of view that you are opposed to violently to?
Why don't you start another pointless "who will win" thread if you deem it a worthy subject?
Because, as we can see from this thread, we'll start, multi-quote responses for a few pages, you'll end up conceding half the points I laid out, or you wont br able to say anything about them. For example, 13 quotes I responded to, you ended up returning answers to..... Two of those, one was a joke and the other the use of an anecdotal legend presented in universe from the Imperium's perspective. It's not more reliable than Ruven saying it's Abaddon's destiny to win. By that I mean, not reliable at all.
Maybe you know better but can't admit it?
If you mean I know better than you then yes, I can freely admit that.
I for one had enough time spent on another thread yesterday to refrain from lenghty arguments in a debate with someone lost to his flawed course of chaos fanboidom.
Oh the irony. You wont find any of that from me, so there's a big flaw in your argument.
Thus the only thing I am guilty of, is to reply to a questionable claim when I had the chance to do something useful instead.
I've asked Coa already, detail these "questionable claims".
iproxtaco wrote:
It pains me to see someone I thought was reliable fellow poster resort to thing as low as trolling when they've run out of anything to counter with, but further, it pains me greatly to see said person unable to come up with something a bit more clever than "noah yoor a troll" when they are called out on it.
Do you really expect me to take this "pains me" and "reliable" as serious after all you said?
I dunno, maybe. I did think you were reliable before now.
I am not so new to miss when a poster lost his way because someone is wrong on the interwebz and the course of your unholy crusade to prove a certain poster as wrong or troll or [deleted to stay clear of your level of veiled insults] is obvious.
So maybe just for once consider :
- the design of chaos is not different at GW than anywhere else ( partially as they like copy&paste very much )
- chaos is the 'threat, but will splinter into infighting and finally lose each time' faction.
- codices provide promotional quotes and the claim to win. A BRB has not to and provides a general overview.
- the inevitable fall of empires is proven as none ever stood the test of time.
- the IoM is put on this "end of days" course , at least since 3rd ed ( when I firstly got involved )
- but it never matters as the endurance of a million worlds means GW can drag this out across dozens of editions as the loss of worlds is irrelevant and wouldn't even be noticed .
There is no way to run out of any so called "counter".
ExaMples:
The 5th ed page116 box is a shortened variant of 3rd ed page 34.
The idea of a rematch is thus not new, not a throwaway line.
The setup hasn't changed. But the details have.
3rd ed page 114 to 115, classification of worlds in the IoM.
Compare this to 5th ed. 3rd provided numbers and population sizes. 5th ???
the sense of scale has been lost, the little grasp they had gone
3rd ed page 120, the 'full circle' as I may call it.
Nothing of chaos winning but 'those who are not human'.....which hints at older races dwindling and newer coming to the fore.
the minions of chaos fight a lost cause. Others will rule the galaxy and their efforts wasted.
The path is laid out.
The IoM is the leviathan everyone pokes with pointy sticks but those are too blunt to kill it.
Primarchs are kept as jokers to do a final version if the setting is burnt out.
Abby is expendable. Hes the 'chosen' of 40k.... and shares the fate of the whfb 'chosen'..
All of it is irrelevant, but I find the notion that the BRB does not present biased quotes just absolutely hilarious. We can dismiss them since they're presented in-universe by a specific faction. Should I break out the Chaos codices? Certain quotes would be equally reliable if we use your line of thinking.
iproxtaco wrote:Hopefully, we can do this again sometime, but if it occurs again, please, do not resort to trolling, it does not but belittle you.
Can't drop that idea of me trolling someone, can't you? I am sure I never intentionally did as I tend to stick with the rules which I agreed to abide.
What would you prefer, trolling, or ignorantly persistent?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:
iproxtaco wrote: you had no real way of backing up.
I did back all this up in the past 7'th thread, you just denied all that and start saying nonsense of united Chaos crushing the Imperium.
And you say that I am making things up. At least I am not saying complete nonsense.
No you didn't. I asked you to detail these apparent attempts at trolling or nonsense, but I have a feeling you're just saying things without knowing what they mean.
iproxtaco wrote: ......words. Lots of bits wasted on content free ranting...
Its a sad day when this is the only valid response:
Wasn't there a topic?
*walks off to find someone who is able respond seriously*
*no food for the Troll*
I'm no gambling man but I would have bet a Kings ransom you would do that*.
*Read: You've talking out your ass for two pages, and have now been called out so you walk away after the realization that you can't respond to anything I asked. Notably, when asked to detail these "questionable claims", to cite what "my wrong point of view" is and give examples of "Chaos fanboidom", you simple can't, because any insistence that such things exist is, simply put, a large shipping container filled to the brim with the finest cattle excrement in the Northern Hemisphere.
You two are really starting to get annoying, to be honest. You keep saying things like 'this isn't worth my time', no food for the troll, blah blah blah, and yet you keep coming back. It's pretty immature and frankly, it has lost its relevance to the thread. So stop.
That said, can someone explain way the "loyal" primarchs would not band together to fight for the imperium, putting their differences aside sort of thing? Like, Guilliman and Sanguinius, or Vulkan picking one over the other, that sort of thing. Is there something in the fluff that has a reason for the distrust and whathaveyou?
Durza wrote:A problem might be that the Imperium wouldn't let the primarchs fight in case they got killed though
Never thought about that. Mind you, they aren't exactly stopping Calgar from rushing in there, and he is fairly highly regarded. Do you think the Primarchs would even listen?
Durza wrote:A problem might be that the Imperium wouldn't let the primarchs fight in case they got killed though
Never thought about that. Mind you, they aren't exactly stopping Calgar from rushing in there, and he is fairly highly regarded. Do you think the Primarchs would even listen?
Most of them probably wouldn't, but Guilliman and a few others would probably be more careful now that they're basically the inheritors of the Imperium. Russ would still be "CHAAAAARGE!" though.
Surely saying you're not going to reply to someone you consider a troll after you reply to them is a bit redundant? Just putting it out there.
I think that they would definitely be loyal, because the Emperor is still their father and since the Great Crusade
ultimately failed thanks to Horus, they would probably be all the more motivated to finish what Teh Emprah started.
This thread has really fizzled out. Arguing over stupid things, getting off topic, and discussing jokes. Shame, it was a great topic and started out awesome.
)
Were doomed.... 
too bad codices mislead people to beleive they got a chance....
