****EDIT APRIL 12th: ISSUE RESOLVED***
privateer press clerical error lost my order, i didnt check my visa and it appeared i was never charged even though i was told the product was allegedly shipped out ... twice so I assumed I was charged for the order... Two negatives make a positive? Final result: Everybody is happy/fine
********************************

Has anybody ordered from Privateer Press and noticed a long shipping time?

A few vendors in Canada have been commenting how they cant keep privateer press in stock because they simply just don't get many shipments from them. Months back they offered that deal to get a starter set with the rules book etc, so I jumped on that.

I placed my order on May 23rd 2011
June 29th rolled around, a few of my friends who ordered a week after me received their products, so I emailed them - no answer
July 8th - emailed them again - no answer.
August 5th - emailed AGAIN - no answer.
I posted on their facebook wall on August 22nd about whats been going on and why am I not getting an answer... I was quickly answered by a guy named Simon to email him directly - to which I did and I got a fast response back explaining due to the Canada Post strike we had this year, it appears it was lost in the mail and he will have it re-sent.
Sept 19th - no package arrived yet, so I emailed Simon and their frontdesk email address(their customer service email address) - and I havent received a response from those yet.

We're past 4 months from my initial purchase and coming up 6 weeks from when I got a response from Simon promising it was shipped. I even selected the faster shipping method on May 23rd, the initial order date, so I would get the product quickly.

**Updated events (updated March 16th 2012):

October 23rd - Posted on their main Forums asking for an update, was replied to by PPS_Alex for my Name and order number which was provided to him on October 25th.
October 25th - received an email from Adam confirming my address and that they would re-send the order - advised they would use a higher method to "track the order" - no tracking number was ever provided to me
December 2nd - I email them - advise them no correspondence back from them along with no order received. I request a refund, obviously frustrated with waiting for this order to "arrive"
December 5th - received email reply from Privateer Press advising they would refund my order.
December 13th - I email PP to advise I see no refund on my credit card. No reply.
December 19th - I email PP again, no refund done.
December 20th - I was away for holidays and received a voicemail from Adam requesting a call back to confirm some credit card info.

In January (didn't record the day, my bad) I tried calling and was told Adam isnt in and they would relay my message to tell him to call me back. I never received a call.

February 14th - I call again, Advised Adam is done at 3:30 PST and to call before then. I then email Adam advising I missed his call back in December and to call me back.

February 23th - I call again, I speak to Adam, I provide him the credit card information he required and he advised he would call me back to confirm its been done.

March 8th - I post on their forums - advised no reply from Adam, 2 weeks since I last spoke to him and no refund has been done on my credit card. No reply on the forums
March 16th (today) - I post on their facebook page since i'm tired of dealing with this behind the scenes and if its brought up in front of their 11,000 followers, maybe they'll actually do something - advised them I've been waiting since DECEMBER to get a simple refund done and it's not yet.
March 16th - I get a reply from my message on the forum from PPS_Adam(convenient...) asking for my name so he can look into my order and find out the status of the refund.

*LONG SIGH*


I have to say, GW has really kicked us on the gonads this year with the finecast miscasts, but when I contacted Games Workshop in regards to asking if i can buy the shoulder mount on a necron heavy destroy cause mine fell off somewhere between my hobby store and home - and they mailed me a full brand new heavy destroyer... I'll take GW's customer service over whats happening with privateer press :(

It saddens me because I just want to give war machine an honest shot.

Anybody have any thoughts on what to do with Privateer Press at this point?

I think they are really struggling to keep up with demand at the moment. They really underestimated just how popular their special offers would be in the light of recent GW buffoonery.

It's no consolation to the customer however and certainly no excuse. I am still waiting on a Cygnar starter set and faction book from Gifts for Geeks - I assume the delay is at source rather than distributor.

Still, I'm sure PP are more than aware of the issues and are working hard to make good. Have patience!

According to my distributor contacts, they were also (again) unfortunate enough to have a container of products held up by customs. This is the reason for the 2p battle box delays.

While I'd blame the initial wait on the postal strike you guys had, the later delay does seem more than a little off. I know one or two of the PPS staffers are on this site, so hopefully they catch this and can give you an explanation.

When in doubt, you can also try giving their Front Desk a call. I don't know what the number is, but it should be listed on the website somewhere.

I've never had problems getting replacement parts from them, but from reading the forums I get the feeling that PP has a really zealous email filter in place, and that requests often get eaten by the system.

Sorry you're having such trouble getting what you ordered, it sucks to have to wait that long on anything.

PP is months behind filling distributor orders to all distributors, and it's hit or miss as to whether you can get replacements for bad models. Some people get them in two weeks, others go 3 months and multiple calls. Hope they get it together at some point.

Demand is outstripping supply, and PP has a policy of not wanting to hire temporary workers, so they won't hire extra people for short term production spikes unless they intend to keep those people indefinitely.

Yeah PPs customer service sucks. From what I gather, any issues with purchases can be resolved via placing a comment in their Online Store Thread in the Privateer Press Forums (Privateer Press Discussion). Emailing, phone calls and social network sites aren’t the best way to resolve issues and it’s been proven to be ineffective in the past (they don’t read or answer emails but respond quickly to forum posts which is weird).

That being said, I’ve experienced 0 issues with ordering PP products. I’ve ordered twice now from their official store (once for the starter bundle and another time for Cygnar battlebox plus pHaley alternate sculpt). I’ve also ordered and pre-orderd Warmachine stuff through Wayland and Defiant Gaming and received no issues in terms of item quality, delivery times or price. Either I’m very lucky or the OP is incredibly unlucky.

mikhaila wrote:PP is months behind filling distributor orders to all distributors, and it's hit or miss as to whether you can get replacements for bad models. Some people get them in two weeks, others go 3 months and multiple calls. Hope they get it together at some point.

This, and knowing that this comes from a game store owner, I can say this is reliable. These delays across the board no matter where you order from, but the best thting you can do if you are a fan of their product is to be patient and let the kinks come out on their own. So far I have only had one mispack and the issue was rectified rather quickly, and websites that I purchase from have been forthcoming enough to make a statement on their pages about the shortages.

To the OP:
I have found if you pick up the phone and call them you get a faster answer. I've never had a major issue with them, other then occassionally things running a week or so late. When i've called them, they have given honest responses. They will often say "i'll get it in the mail."

Its easy for them to blow off emails, I don't know why you'd expect them to reply on facebook. However, calling them, you'll at least get a human being and an answer

Sadly I really don't have much time throughout the day to call them, and I can't use my cell phone at work, and I can't use my work phone for a long distance call so it puts me in a crappy position :(

The power of social media isn't to be underestimated, I got a response immediately on facebook when my first 4 emails didnt work. I've also gotten out of a ridiculous $600 cancellation fee with my last cell phone provider because I posted how stupid it was on Twitter

I'll give it another week and see if anything turns up then I'll see if I can sneak out a phone call sometime if nothing comes.

Aduro wrote:Demand is outstripping supply, and PP has a policy of not wanting to hire temporary workers, so they won't hire extra people for short term production spikes unless they intend to keep those people indefinitely.

The sad thing is that we've had this supply problem now for over a year, and it's not getting any better. Every Gencon is a hit to production, and the amount of models grows each year. I really wish they would have hired and trained a few more casters a year and a half ago. And they don't print their own books. Why the hell can I not get the basic Warmachine book in stock anywhere?

It's sad when I want to spend several thousand dollars on a product that no one has in stock, and I use 4 distributors with 11 different warehouses.(

To be honest this is one of the things that puts me off PP games.

When I was living in the UK and gaming regularly there I had terrible trouble getting hold of the stuff, sometimes taking up to 6 month to get stuff.

Plus playing PP games meant playing with people who play PP games, all of whom that I met when trying to start were really unpleasant to play with.

I like the game rules, I like the concept, but frankly the service from the company leaves a lot to be desired.

And a tip for people demoing the game (outriders I think is the term), when playing a demo game, unleashing your favourite power combo on a first time player in turn one and crushing him before he gets a chance to do anything is not a good way to encourage sales.

marv335 wrote:To be honest this is one of the things that puts me off PP games.

When I was living in the UK and gaming regularly there I had terrible trouble getting hold of the stuff, sometimes taking up to 6 month to get stuff.

Plus playing PP games meant playing with people who play PP games, all of whom that I met when trying to start were really unpleasant to play with.

I like the game rules, I like the concept, but frankly the service from the company leaves a lot to be desired.

And a tip for people demoing the game (outriders I think is the term), when playing a demo game, unleashing your favourite power combo on a first time player in turn one and crushing him before he gets a chance to do anything is not a good way to encourage sales.

Good, please keep away then. I'm having allot of trouble in getting models as it is without even more people coming into the game. And I'm frankly getting tired of all the "this is overpowered", "that is overpowered" whines that apparently come from all the ex-GW players (see, I can make blank derogatory statements too).

PhantomViper wrote:

marv335 wrote:To be honest this is one of the things that puts me off PP games.

When I was living in the UK and gaming regularly there I had terrible trouble getting hold of the stuff, sometimes taking up to 6 month to get stuff.

Plus playing PP games meant playing with people who play PP games, all of whom that I met when trying to start were really unpleasant to play with.

I like the game rules, I like the concept, but frankly the service from the company leaves a lot to be desired.

And a tip for people demoing the game (outriders I think is the term), when playing a demo game, unleashing your favourite power combo on a first time player in turn one and crushing him before he gets a chance to do anything is not a good way to encourage sales.

Good, please keep away then. I'm having allot of trouble in getting models as it is without even more people coming into the game. And I'm frankly getting tired of all the "this is overpowered", "that is overpowered" whines that apparently come from all the ex-GW players (see, I can make blank derogatory statements too).

Right, because I'm sure that you can't have a negative opinion about Warmachine unless you're a complete GW fanboy.

A guy gives an honest opinion based on his experiences that match very well with what others have also stated and you tell him to stay away from the game, bash another games player base and Admit that you are being a jerk for no reason. This is why people get reported to moderators and removed from forums.

That being said I have to agree that I have had alot of trouble locally with WarmaHorde players as well. Alot of them took page 5 way to seriously.

augustus5 wrote:

Right, because I'm sure that you can't have a negative opinion about Warmachine unless you're a complete GW fanboy.

Please point exactly on my post where I've said that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shepherd23 wrote:A guy gives an honest opinion based on his experiences that match very well with what others have also stated and you tell him to stay away from the game, bash another games player base and Admit that you are being a jerk for no reason. This is why people get reported to moderators and removed from forums.

See that report button, feel free to use it then, that is what its there for.

And last I saw, he was the one that said, and I quote:

Plus playing PP games meant playing with people who play PP games, all of whom that I met when trying to start were really unpleasant to play with.

And I said that if you don't like the game, don't like the company and don't like the people who play the game, then don't play it... I'll even thank you for it.

PhantomViper wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Right, because I'm sure that you can't have a negative opinion about Warmachine unless you're a complete GW fanboy.

Please point exactly on my post where I've said that.

PhantonViper wrote:...whines that apparently come from all the ex-GW players (see, I can make blank derogatory statements too).

You imply that people who have an issue with the game must be ex-GW players.

mikhaila wrote:

Aduro wrote:Demand is outstripping supply, and PP has a policy of not wanting to hire temporary workers, so they won't hire extra people for short term production spikes unless they intend to keep those people indefinitely.

The sad thing is that we've had this supply problem now for over a year, and it's not getting any better. Every Gencon is a hit to production, and the amount of models grows each year. I really wish they would have hired and trained a few more casters a year and a half ago. And they don't print their own books. Why the hell can I not get the basic Warmachine book in stock anywhere?

It's sad when I want to spend several thousand dollars on a product that no one has in stock, and I use 4 distributors with 11 different warehouses.(

You know this really makes me wonder if it was a case of not hiring enough casters and people to handle and speed up the production or if it was a case of really extraordinary crazy growth... I mean any small company grows depending on the demand but if in a short time the demand grows to huge levels I bet thats a nightmare to handle. For all we know they could have doubled the casters and a few months later the demand tripled or quadrupled yet again and keeps on rising... I believe the new 2 player box is going to stupid big in the industry... ( hope they do one for hordes).

NAVARRO wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Aduro wrote:Demand is outstripping supply, and PP has a policy of not wanting to hire temporary workers, so they won't hire extra people for short term production spikes unless they intend to keep those people indefinitely.

The sad thing is that we've had this supply problem now for over a year, and it's not getting any better. Every Gencon is a hit to production, and the amount of models grows each year. I really wish they would have hired and trained a few more casters a year and a half ago. And they don't print their own books. Why the hell can I not get the basic Warmachine book in stock anywhere?

It's sad when I want to spend several thousand dollars on a product that no one has in stock, and I use 4 distributors with 11 different warehouses.(

You know this really makes me wonder if it was a case of not hiring enough casters and people to handle and speed up the production or if it was a case of really extraordinary crazy growth... I mean any small company grows depending on the demand but if in a short time the demand grows to huge levels I bet thats a nightmare to handle. For all we know they could have doubled the casters and a few months later the demand tripled or quadrupled yet again and keeps on rising... I believe the new 2 player box is going to stupid big in the industry... ( hope they do one for hordes).

Definitely both. The game is growing, and as usual they have trouble handling it. Been that way forever. The sad thing is right now is that every distributor is waiting for months for restocks. The orders get sent and stack up, and I'm really wondering on how I'm going to get product for my store for the holidays.

Someone came in today looking for a rulebook that I'm still out of stock on. They were a bit indignant about it, and said something like "but PP said more would be out in September." I wish it were that easy. Then he asked me to for the two player box that I have a stack of behind the counter, and I had to tell him that even though I have them, and have been charged for them by my distributor, PP changed the onsale date until the 5th. Customer is frustrated, I'm frustrated.

I see, the game is growing but its out of control and frustrating some potential clients and stores in the process... its going to be very interesting to see how they will handle this because with the new super cheap box almost hitting the stores I think the demand is going to skyrocket.

As a customer of PP stuff I'm used to be patient but I can understand people not inclined to endure with the waiting. Hopefully things will get back in track in a near future.

Despite the suggested demand for PP's products allot of the symptoms being listed are also very similar to those that I have experienced before a company goes into Administration.

Now I don't know that this is the case but not expanding production to meet demand can suggest a lack of cashflow/credit to actually do so.

I don't see employing extra personnel now to meet demand and then reducing resources in 12 months if the bubble burst as a big problem to a business.

They have been behind since long before the supposed GW abandonment, delays can only get worse the longer they leave it. Why are they not expanding?

And some say GW can't run a business?

notprop wrote:Despite the suggested demand for PP's products allot of the symptoms being listed are also very similar to those that I have experienced before a company goes into Administration.

Now I don't know that this is the case but not expanding production to meet demand can suggest a lack of cashflow/credit to actually do so.

Can suggest many things, like holding back and check how things evolve before investing to much... some companies want to climb the ladder one step at the time and in harsh economic times it pays to be careful.

notprop wrote:
I don't see employing extra personnel now to meet demand and then reducing resources in 12 months if the bubble burst as a big problem to a business.

Neither do I but they have stated clearly in the past that its their company policy not to fire people, so its a clear strategy and way of building the company.

notprop wrote:
They have been behind since long before the supposed GW abandonment, delays can only get worse the longer they leave it. Why are they not expanding?

I think before the finecast and embargo fiasco there have been consistent abandonment so I think its not entirely accurate to think its a total new recent thing... besides we do not know if they expanded or not, at this point we only know the demand its still not fulfilled and that can be due to other factors like we talked a couple posts before...

notprop wrote:
And some say GW can't run a business?

Here we go again... the chat was so good why ruin it?

candy.man wrote:Yeah PPs customer service sucks. From what I gather, any issues with purchases can be resolved via placing a comment in their Online Store Thread in the Privateer Press Forums (Privateer Press Discussion). Emailing, phone calls and social network sites aren’t the best way to resolve issues and it’s been proven to be ineffective in the past (they don’t read or answer emails but respond quickly to forum posts which is weird).

That being said, I’ve experienced 0 issues with ordering PP products. I’ve ordered twice now from their official store (once for the starter bundle and another time for Cygnar battlebox plus pHaley alternate sculpt). I’ve also ordered and pre-orderd Warmachine stuff through Wayland and Defiant Gaming and received no issues in terms of item quality, delivery times or price. Either I’m very lucky or the OP is incredibly unlucky.

My experience has been the opposite. Every single large order I've placed has had at least one blister/box with;

A missing item
Two of the same item (Two right legs instead of a right/left leg)
Inappropriate card for the item



On the other hand, each time I've phoned and/or filled out a missing part form on their site---I've received excellent customer service and support. Their packing crew however--I've not been impressed with so far. Which, if I were running PP (For what that's worth!), I would reexamine my entire production process---from estimating growth/sales--to packing/QA. I would give the customer service guys a raise.

NAVARRO wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Aduro wrote:Demand is outstripping supply, and PP has a policy of not wanting to hire temporary workers, so they won't hire extra people for short term production spikes unless they intend to keep those people indefinitely.

The sad thing is that we've had this supply problem now for over a year, and it's not getting any better. Every Gencon is a hit to production, and the amount of models grows each year. I really wish they would have hired and trained a few more casters a year and a half ago. And they don't print their own books. Why the hell can I not get the basic Warmachine book in stock anywhere?

It's sad when I want to spend several thousand dollars on a product that no one has in stock, and I use 4 distributors with 11 different warehouses.(

You know this really makes me wonder if it was a case of not hiring enough casters and people to handle and speed up the production or if it was a case of really extraordinary crazy growth... I mean any small company grows depending on the demand but if in a short time the demand grows to huge levels I bet thats a nightmare to handle. For all we know they could have doubled the casters and a few months later the demand tripled or quadrupled yet again and keeps on rising... I believe the new 2 player box is going to stupid big in the industry... ( hope they do one for hordes).

A perfect example of this is DICE. When they made Bad Company (1 or 2, don't remember), they were not prepared for its popularity. So the DLC's they had were not ready because they thought that BF:BC would become as popular as it did.

Yup. Those Overlords I ordered back in May still haven't shown up.

marv335 wrote:

And a tip for people demoing the game (outriders I think is the term), when playing a demo game, unleashing your favourite power combo on a first time player in turn one and crushing him before he gets a chance to do anything is not a good way to encourage sales.

We're called Press Gangers. Outriders are GW's defunct volunteer group.

And that's stupid. I only unleash power combos for people itching for a "real"
fight. Otherwise demos are about teaching those combos to others.

NAVARRO wrote:Neither do I but they have stated clearly in the past that its their company policy not to fire people, so its a clear strategy and way of building the company.

That's not the case.)

They may not like to bring on seasonal help, only to let them go. But they certainly fire people. Right after Gencon seems to be a big season for it. Every company fires people.

mikhaila wrote:
That's not the case.)

They may not like to bring on seasonal help, only to let them go. But they certainly fire people. Right after Gencon seems to be a big season for it. Every company fires people.

If you're talking about Jen, I believe she just switched positions in the company, she didn't get fired.

As far as production/supply issues go, I believe in this case it's a matter of popularity EXPLODING beyond what anyone expected. Someone from PP mentioned a few weeks ago that they were hiring/training new production staff, which I take to mean that they foresee the popularity of Warmachine to continue. I'm poor as dirt right now, so the supply problem doesn't really affect me since I can't afford models anyways. But I trust in PP, and I think they know what they're doing. As outsiders, we have no idea what's happening internally in the company, so we can't really form reliable opinions on the matter.

Ive always had a fast response and delivery.


I suggest making a post of the PP forums with what you did here.

You can usually get a response there again.

malfred wrote:

marv335 wrote:

And a tip for people demoing the game (outriders I think is the term), when playing a demo game, unleashing your favourite power combo on a first time player in turn one and crushing him before he gets a chance to do anything is not a good way to encourage sales.

We're called Press Gangers. Outriders are GW's defunct volunteer group.

And that's stupid. I only unleash power combos for people itching for a "real"
fight. Otherwise demos are about teaching those combos to others.

Right, Press gangers, I knew it was something, but couldn't remember the exact term.
And that was my point.

I mean, I like Warmachine, I really do. I started it because I was stuck in Australia and picked up the rulebook in a games shop in Perth.
I saw the Arcane Temple Gun Mages, and was hooked.
I love the look and the background (gunfighters with magic bullets, what's not to like?)
If the distribution problems clear up, and I can find a decent group to play against, I'll probably give it another shot.

We @ GG can attest -- distro has been a real poo ;D

This has been a nagging problem: PP has been struggling with keeping stores/distributors stocked for many months now.

They claim it is due to demand.

They also seem to eject employees like I do a bad burrito...

If you read on their forums you will see that many people complain about good customer service as far as getting replies to emails, etc. They have changed the protocol for getting replacement parts and customer service a number of times.


Your best bet is to go at them on multiple fronts: email, call, and the ever productive: post a complaint on their forum (this always seems to get a response).

It's a shame that PP is having problems getting their act together. While I don't play the game, I really think that having a company that can compete with GW could be a great thing for miniature wargaming overall. If PP can't get models into the hands of their player base, and potential new players, I'm afraid that the steam the game has right now might begin to wane. I hope I'm wrong.

As much I hate to suggest not supporting your FLGS(and I won't go that far, especially since it's the only places I can find Seethers these days), I've yet to have a problem finding anything PP I've wanted with online stores and sellers.

That said, it sucks that stores can't supply their customers/players, but I try not to speak too ill of the company due to still having 3 personal friends as staff members there. I'll never deny I'm biased in that regard, as success for PP at the moment equals success for them.

CT GAMER wrote:
They also seem to eject employees like I do a bad burrito...

Some actual proof of this instead of just spreading false rumours would be too much to ask?

Edit: NEVERMIND.

It seems he's still employed there, though certain messages a few months ago suggested to me. Reading fail on my part.

PhantomViper wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
They also seem to eject employees like I do a bad burrito...

Some actual proof of this instead of just spreading false rumours would be too much to ask?

Easy, Sir Galahad.

Disucssions of this can even be found on their own forums of which I have been a member since the inception (I have a member number in the mid-one hundreds).

I was particularly saddened by the loss of Alfonso "The Traitor" Falcon. Others have been discussed on their forums in various threads.

On a more personal level I have also known three people personally that are now former PP employees that I met through PP's convention participation or from various events that worked for them (one was a former customer in my store who moved out there to work in their warehouse) in various capacities that are no longer employed.

So from what I have read over the years on their forums and what i have personally seen/experienced I stand by my "it seems" stance...

Good day Sir Knight...

The short answer is PP cant keep up. I made a trade which included some items- bits actually, ordered from PP direct and it took 2-3 months to get the parts. PP cant keep up with the demand with the current supply. Email them your problems, they usually respond. Hell I've had them respond here on dakka.

Well I came home today and I saw a missed delivery note on my door from canada post... it's either my order from PP or my order from Miniwargaming (which I made last week friday...)

I HOPE it's PP's so I can rest easy about this (I Know MWG sometimes takes a week or two to get the stuff to me), however I have a feeling it is my order from MWG... if it is, then I'll post on PP's forum and see if I have time to sneak in a call tomorrow to them.

Thanks again for all the input guys.

No sooner do I mention that my long-absent Overlords have yet to be sent that I get a message informing me that they've been shipped.

Murphy's Law folks. It can be harnessed!

Our distributor is just keeping up; the LGS gets orders in regularily, even if the shelves are frequently vacuumed due to the current Journeyman League. It could be faster, I guess, but we still get things one to two weeks after US release, which is still a month better than it was when I lived in Denmark.

CT GAMER wrote:
I was particularly saddened by the loss of Alfonso "The Traitor" Falcon.

Er, didn't he quit in 2007 or something? You sure digest those bad burritos slowly

Other ones I can recall noting as leaving was Mike McVey and Brian Snoddy, also in 2007, and Kevin Clark, in 2009. Chris Walton went for videogame concepting in 2010, then came back later, when Kris Aubin decided to move back home to Canada. The last NQ editor-in-chief also switched jobs. The only one that puzzled me was Clark; there was some hints that he was less than pleased about the Mk2 process, but as PP, as most companies, do not discuss their employee relations in detail and he hasn't commented on it himself, I don't know much about it. They probably have a lot of rotation on the lower levels; this is the case in any company. The current PP Insider system makes it pretty easy to follow the current employee lineup, as they write articles on what they do regularily.

Thought i'd give you guys an update (for anybody that cares lol)

Oct 25th 2011 I posted on their forum about my issue, got a reply back from an Alex on there who requested I PM him my order # and he'll look into it.

After I had done so , I got an email from an Alex who verified my address and said they would do a higher method of delivery so I would get it quicker.

Today, December 2nd, nothing received. I sent them a message asking for a refund.

Completely unacceptable. Worst part is, the local gaming store has a Warmachine/Hordes group that I wanted to meet and play with, if I get my refund I'll likely stick to purchasing these locally as I saw somebody else on their forum have the exact same issue as me.

Seriously- try calling them, as several have suggested. It cleared my self created problem very quickly with my starter set.

Due to horror stories like this the only item I've ordered direct from PP is one I had to (the Mauler Extreme sculpt). Otherwise, I get my PP models from other stores instead of direct...

malfred wrote:

marv335 wrote:

And a tip for people demoing the game (outriders I think is the term), when playing a demo game, unleashing your favourite power combo on a first time player in turn one and crushing him before he gets a chance to do anything is not a good way to encourage sales.

We're called Press Gangers. Outriders are GW's defunct volunteer group.

And that's stupid. I only unleash power combos for people itching for a "real"
fight. Otherwise demos are about teaching those combos to others.

What does it take to become a Press Ganger?

RiTides wrote:Due to horror stories like this the only item I've ordered direct from PP is one I had to (the Mauler Extreme sculpt). Otherwise, I get my PP models from other stores instead of direct...

PP has a stated policy of prefering you buy from your FLGS, which they only break when they want to offer deals (and their exlusive scuplts as well I guess). Which I really aprecciate.

Which also makes sense since they don't have their gak together enough to sell directly in any volume, it seems

Despite that, I love them, and just buy their stuff from stores!

Got my starter box set last week at my local Indie store and I love it for the price.

Maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had to wait more than a week and a half for replacement parts or bits orders (I'm clumsy).

I know that they did a huge overhaul on their replacement program a few months ago...maybe you got lost in the shuffle, my advice is don't be afraid to be a jerk about it...if you don't hear back from them in a day or so send another email, the squeaky wheel gets the grease so they say.

Cryage wrote:the local gaming store has a Warmachine/Hordes group that I wanted to meet and play with, if I get my refund I'll likely stick to purchasing these locally

If you plan on playing at your local game store, the right thing to do would probably be to purchase there..?

bolo, if you read the end of the sentence you quoted that's exactly what he says

However, I can attest that it can be hard to get PP models locally... it's hard to resist ordering something, knowing you can get it that week most likely, whereas the local gaming store will have to go through a distributor and possibly take a month to get it, if it's an older / harder to get item.

I bought a Discordia upgrade blister and it was missing a part. They got it to me up in Canada in two weeks.

I've had issues in the past, but I think things are somewhat better.

My approach though, is to order things that are in stock. If either of the local stores has it in stock, I buy it there. If Miniaturemarket.com has it in stock, I buy it there. Discount Games on eBay generally has their stuff in stock as they're not supposed to list it if they don't actually have it.

I hate ordering stuff either through a local store or online and then not getting what I ordered in a timely fashion because of back orders. I think the longest wait I ever had on a Privateer special order at a local store was 7 months. After that I told them no more special orders for me and gave them a list of the type of stuff I might buy if it is on the shelf.

The last 4 weeks have been a bit better on the distribution front. I'm down to filling my wall using only two distributors.) But hearing from other stores that they are getting a better fill rate, and shelves not quite so bare.

At the height of the shortages, I could only keep in about 80% of their codes, and was going through 4 distributors and 11 warehouses.

Hopefully the madness is over until at least the yearly Gencon delay.)

bolo wrote:

Cryage wrote:the local gaming store has a Warmachine/Hordes group that I wanted to meet and play with, if I get my refund I'll likely stick to purchasing these locally

If you plan on playing at your local game store, the right thing to do would probably be to purchase there..?

That is if I purchase the minis at all bolo. I'm pretty fething angry at how bad their customer service is. I finally got into town for the Christmas season after a busy year so I didnt have time to dedicate chasing them around none stop these last 7 months.

I ask again- have you tried calling?

CorvidMP wrote:I ask again- have you tried calling?

Corvid, if you took the time to read this thread you would understand that I havent had time to call. Drop the fan boy card for 5 minutes and understand how a simple business works.

A consumer puts in an order for a goods and/or service.

Said company provides consumer with said good and/or service that they have paid for.

It's very simple. A consumer should not have to play harassment with a company to get it settled, ESPECIALLY when privateer press has told me three times directly that they would look after it and settle it. Why should I incur a long distance charge to get an order I paid for well over half a year ago ?

The sad news is that when things go wrong, you have to be merciless.

I'd post on their facebook page every day. I'd email every day. I'd post on their forum every day. You can call US numbers from gmail for free. If you can't call during business hours leave a message every day.

This isn't made right until you have the product in your hands.

Hey Frozen, sorry for the dumb question, how do I call free from gmail?

google.com/voice

Derp! Thanks LM!

So after an email in December I got a voicemail from Adam with PP asking to give him a call, it took me a few calls to reach him:

1st call, left a message with a guy after I asked to speak to Adam - no call returned. 2nd call I was told Adam finishes for the day at 2:30 PST.... must be nice lol, and my third call , exactly two weeks ago today - connected with Adam he said he would process my refund.

No refund has happened. TWO WEEKS! I ordered some stuff from MWG and I caught that their hive guards were on special for 1 day for an extra 10% and I asked if I could get that sale price and they corrected that and refunded my money that day. THAT is how business should be handled.

Privateer Press is hands down one of the worst companies I have ever had to deal with... and that goes with car dealerships not wanting to stand by their warranties

I've emailed them, posted on their facebook page, posted on their forum, and have called them - and I am getting NO success. So, nobody can say I haven't tried. I'm going to likely end up calling visa and saying it was a fraudulant charge as the product was never delivered and I have records of all of my attempts to contact them to have them fix this.

Unbelievable. I WAS going to just simply purchase their models at my FLGS but forget that, I'll spend that money for 40k.

Say what you will about GW, but they are not this bad at all with customer service.

Cryage wrote:So after an email in December I got a voicemail from Adam with PP asking to give him a call, it took me a few calls to reach him:

1st call, left a message with a guy after I asked to speak to Adam - no call returned. 2nd call I was told Adam finishes for the day at 2:30 PST.... must be nice lol, and my third call , exactly two weeks ago today - connected with Adam he said he would process my refund.

No refund has happened. TWO WEEKS! I ordered some stuff from MWG and I caught that their hive guards were on special for 1 day for an extra 10% and I asked if I could get that sale price and they corrected that and refunded my money that day. THAT is how business should be handled.

Privateer Press is hands down one of the worst companies I have ever had to deal with... and that goes with car dealerships not wanting to stand by their warranties

I've emailed them, posted on their facebook page, posted on their forum, and have called them - and I am getting NO success. So, nobody can say I haven't tried. I'm going to likely end up calling visa and saying it was a fraudulant charge as the product was never delivered and I have records of all of my attempts to contact them to have them fix this.

Unbelievable. I WAS going to just simply purchase their models at my FLGS but forget that, I'll spend that money for 40k.

Say what you will about GW, but they are not this bad at all with customer service.

Customer service shouldent rule over wether or not you play a game. For every complaint there are twice as many good story's to be shared. You took a chance and you got burned on ordering direct so the smart thing now would be order elsewhere. You dont quit learning how to ride a bike after your first fall..........

jdamaso111 wrote:

Cryage wrote:So after an email in December I got a voicemail from Adam with PP asking to give him a call, it took me a few calls to reach him:

1st call, left a message with a guy after I asked to speak to Adam - no call returned. 2nd call I was told Adam finishes for the day at 2:30 PST.... must be nice lol, and my third call , exactly two weeks ago today - connected with Adam he said he would process my refund.

No refund has happened. TWO WEEKS! I ordered some stuff from MWG and I caught that their hive guards were on special for 1 day for an extra 10% and I asked if I could get that sale price and they corrected that and refunded my money that day. THAT is how business should be handled.

Privateer Press is hands down one of the worst companies I have ever had to deal with... and that goes with car dealerships not wanting to stand by their warranties

I've emailed them, posted on their facebook page, posted on their forum, and have called them - and I am getting NO success. So, nobody can say I haven't tried. I'm going to likely end up calling visa and saying it was a fraudulant charge as the product was never delivered and I have records of all of my attempts to contact them to have them fix this.

Unbelievable. I WAS going to just simply purchase their models at my FLGS but forget that, I'll spend that money for 40k.

Say what you will about GW, but they are not this bad at all with customer service.

Customer service shouldent rule over wether or not you play a game. For every complaint there are twice as many good story's to be shared. You took a chance and you got burned on ordering direct so the smart thing now would be order elsewhere. You dont quit learning how to ride a bike after your first fall..........

What sort of idiotic advice is this? The company is bullshitting and shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

jdamaso111 wrote:
Customer service shouldent rule over wether or not you play a game. For every complaint there are twice as many good story's to be shared. You took a chance and you got burned on ordering direct so the smart thing now would be order elsewhere. You dont quit learning how to ride a bike after your first fall..........

Are you kidding me? Bad customer service should be one of the top (maybe even number one) reasons not to support (read: buy from) a company.

Ugh that does sound bad.

Do what you have to do. Hopefully its a one-time thing :(

jdamaso111 wrote:Customer service shouldent rule over wether or not you play a game. For every complaint there are twice as many good story's to be shared. You took a chance and you got burned on ordering direct so the smart thing now would be order elsewhere. You dont quit learning how to ride a bike after your first fall..........

Allright, first a disclaimer: I personally like PP and it´s systems, and I found the customer service to be satisfactory whenever I had to deal with it and I mainly heard ok stuff about it when talking to people. Cryage´s case seems to be very unlucky.

However, a bad customer service experience is a perfectly valid reason not to play a game. Especially considering that, as much as I love PP, you´ll possibly have to contact customer service somewhat frequently since PP is quite vulnerable to missing bits since they sell their bits allready seperated from the sprue (I personally had 4 or 5 cases of missing piece so far, though my problems where solved quickly and with one single e-mail each). If you can´t be confident that your concerns will be dealt with in a way satisfactory to you, you simply can´t and shouldn´t play the game.

I think I'm going to exit out of playing PP's games as well because of customer service issues. I've had an order with missing items, completely missing orders, mispacks and miscasts from direct orders as well as claims on missing parts.

I'm just sort of done with it. I don't really see GW as an alternative as I detest their rules. So I'll probably concentrate on small press rules sets and using whatever miniatures I feel like from whatever manufacturer. Since I find I spend more time building and painting than playing, that should work out fine.

I think I'll keep 35 points of Cryx and sell my other 4 armies as I still have friends who play the game and it's good to have something.

I must say that the fact that they can't get the books in to stores makes me worry about them, that there is something going on. They don't need new casters/designers/whatever for them. They just need to contact there printer to do a print run with a drop shipment to the wholesalers.

Good luck with it all everyone, and I do hope they sort it out as I would like to try PP games, but I'm not touching them with a 10 foot pole until this kind of stuff is sorted. Ill stick with GW (keeping away from finecast until they sort that mess out) for now.

Electro wrote:I must say that the fact that they can't get the books in to stores makes me worry about them, that there is something going on. They don't need new casters/designers/whatever for them. They just need to contact there printer to do a print run with a drop shipment to the wholesalers.

Good luck with it all everyone, and I do hope they sort it out as I would like to try PP games, but I'm not touching them with a 10 foot pole until this kind of stuff is sorted. Ill stick with GW (keeping away from finecast until they sort that mess out) for now.

Try and get your facts straight before posting these kinds of remarks if you please.

What the OP is talking about is an experience through their direct order service.

There is absolutely no problem in getting PP books at stores (my FLGS just got the entire range of PP rulebooks this very week as part of their regular supply scheme) and even their miniature shortage issues are largely resolved by now (as long as you don't buy through Maelstrom that is).

PP has ALWAYS struggled with this.

Anyone who has spent any amount of time on their forums over the years knows that this has been a semi-regular topic of discussion.

They have good intentions and usually take care of you once enough noise is raised, but they seem to constantly be outgrowing their distribution and customer service capability....

PhantomViper wrote:
Try and get your facts straight before posting these kinds of remarks if you please.

What the OP is talking about is an experience through their direct order service.

There is absolutely no problem in getting PP books at stores (my FLGS just got the entire range of PP rulebooks this very week as part of their regular supply scheme) and even their miniature shortage issues are largely resolved by now (as long as you don't buy through Maelstrom that is).

1) No need to be passive aggressive.

2) I suggest you get your facts straight before attacking others.

mikhaila wrote:
The sad thing is that we've had this supply problem now for over a year, and it's not getting any better. Every Gencon is a hit to production, and the amount of models grows each year. I really wish they would have hired and trained a few more casters a year and a half ago. And they don't print their own books. Why the hell can I not get the basic Warmachine book in stock anywhere?

It's sad when I want to spend several thousand dollars on a product that no one has in stock, and I use 4 distributors with 11 different warehouses.(

Just because you have no problem dose not me that others do not. I have been having problems getting hold of them too.

Electro wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Try and get your facts straight before posting these kinds of remarks if you please.

What the OP is talking about is an experience through their direct order service.

There is absolutely no problem in getting PP books at stores (my FLGS just got the entire range of PP rulebooks this very week as part of their regular supply scheme) and even their miniature shortage issues are largely resolved by now (as long as you don't buy through Maelstrom that is).

1) No need to be rude.

2) I suggest you get your facts straight before attacking others.

mikhaila wrote:
The sad thing is that we've had this supply problem now for over a year, and it's not getting any better. Every Gencon is a hit to production, and the amount of models grows each year. I really wish they would have hired and trained a few more casters a year and a half ago. And they don't print their own books. Why the hell can I not get the basic Warmachine book in stock anywhere?

It's sad when I want to spend several thousand dollars on a product that no one has in stock, and I use 4 distributors with 11 different warehouses.(

Just because you have no problem dose not me that others do not. I have been having problems getting hold of them too.

1st: Nowhere in my post was I being rude in any way. Saying that you are wrong when you are wrong isn't being rude, its stating a fact.

2nd: That post you just quoted is close to 6 months old, even mikhaila said that his supply problems were mostly solved by mid November... Take a closer look at what you are quoting next time.

I don't know how you could be having any problems getting hold of the books, Wayland, Firestorm and even Maelstrom (with their ever diminishing PP stock) are reporting that they have the rulebooks in stock so what exactly is your problem?

1) "Try and get your facts straight" Is very passive agressive and rude. It is not a fact, as explained, and even if it is a fact that dose not prohibit rudeness.

2) To be honest, I have not looked since late last year (December). After years of hit and miss stocking I hardly think 3 months of "amostly solved" is enough for me to change my mind. That is not an improvement after a year and a half of problems, that is getting some stock in.

Again, "so what exactly is your problem" is also agressive. I suggest that you might want to look in to good etiquete and who writting is diffrent to talking if you do not see how this can come across.

My problem, exactly, is that just because they can stock now dose not convince me that they will be able to fulfill orders in 6 months time. Given the cost and commitment I am not happy to try PP at this time. From what has been said there customer service leave allot to be desired and until I hear better reports I will be avoiding them, which I think is a shame. I have never used Firestorm but I refuse to use Wayland and Maelstrom due to there realy bad customer service and slow dispatch of orders (Wayland from firsthand knolage, Maelstrom from what people have told me). I can't be sure they have them in stock given that I, and others, have orderd things "in stock" from them befor, and it has taken months.

Why all the anger about me mearly saying that I cannot trust them at this time and that I would love to try PP games?

Electro wrote:1) "Try and get your facts straight" Is very passive agressive and rude. It is not a fact, as explained, and even if it is a fact that dose not prohibit rudeness.

It is a fact, since I gave you 4 different retailers that had the products you were claiming PP couldn't get into the stores.

Electro wrote:
2) To be honest, I have not looked since late last year (December). After years of hit and miss stocking I hardly think 3 months of "amostly solved" is enough for me to change my mind. That is not an improvement after a year and a half of problems, that is getting some stock in.

So you admit that you were making false claims without even checking out the products you were supposedly looking so hard to get... And I'm the one being passive aggressive...

"years of hit and miss stocking" is again a blatant try at slinging mud without any facts to back it up, PP had a bit over a year of stocking issues, since the release of MK2 up to around November last year due to an unexpected increase in demand for their products.

Should they have responded better to the surge? Yes, of course, but the way that they chose to reply to it, by increasing their production incrementally instead of overextending their capacities possibly compromising product quality or even endangering their existence as a company if the "surge" would have been just an anomaly, while extremely frustrating to us the customers, makes the most sense from a business perspective.

I had to wait 6 MONTHS for eEyriss during last year, you can bet I was angry, but PP is a relatively small company so it isn't unreasonable to understand the difficulties that they had meeting such a huge increase in demand.

Electro wrote:
Again, "so what exactly is your problem" is also agressive. I suggest that you might want to look in to good etiquete and who writting is diffrent to talking if you do not see how this can come across.

It is only aggressive if you choose to inject an aggressive tone into my written words. You were claiming that PP couldn't even get their books into stores (without even checking), I gave you 4 examples that they could and asked what exactly was your problem getting said books. Its not my fault that you chose to inject a tone into my words that they didn't have.

Electro wrote:
My problem, exactly, is that just because they can stock now dose not convince me that they will be able to fulfill orders in 6 months time. Given the cost and commitment I am not happy to try PP at this time. From what has been said there customer service leave allot to be desired and until I hear better reports I will be avoiding them, which I think is a shame. I have never used Firestorm but I refuse to use Wayland and Maelstrom due to there realy bad customer service and slow dispatch of orders (Wayland from firsthand knolage, Maelstrom from what people have told me). I can't be sure they have them in stock given that I, and others, have orderd things "in stock" from them befor, and it has taken months.

To counter the one bad example of customer service in this thread you have a few examples of good customer service as well. And while I would do the exact same thing as the OP did and never again look at another PP product if it had happened to me, saying "there customer service leave allot to be desired" is again a generalisation and exaggeration on your part.

You sure are throwing the "lack of customer service" accusation around allot aren't you? I never had a problem with neither of those online retailers customer service, and I had a period during last year where my crappy postal service was misplacing every package that was sent my way. In every case, a single email saying that the packages never reached me and they immediately resent them, no further questions asked! Maelstrom is going downhill regarding their dispatch times, sure, probably because being the cheapest of them all, they are biting of more than they can chew in terms of orders numbers.

Electro wrote:
Why all the anger about me mearly saying that I cannot trust them at this time and that I would love to try PP games?

I'm not angry about you or anything else for that matter, stop injecting tone into my words, you came into this thread throwing around false accusations and I just called you up on them. You can have every reason that you want for not wanting to try PP games at this point or at any other point in the past or future.

Updated the original post with my continuing battle with PP.

I'm seriously getting tired of this "we'll look into it" bullcrap answer.

At this point, I want results, not just "looking into it!"

As far as I can tell, the summary of this story is: You ordered something from a company, didn't receive it, and instead of contacting your credit card company to dispute the charge due to non-delivery, you thought it would be somehow more productive to complain about it on the Internet.

I just don't understand kids these days.

Because it makes more sense to try and contact the retailer and have them fix the issue vs contacting the credit card company... Even the FTC recommends contacting the merchant first and working out the issues. Being promised by the retailer to have the product re-sent, then when that didnt pan out being promised a refund and not receiving it, then yeah thats clearly going to be the next course of actiom.

Im also not simply "complaining on the internet," im sharing an exceptionally negative with experience with a community who could likely go through the exact same thing. Reading through PP's forums, it appears im not the only one.

If you dont want to read reviews or experiences then log off all forums.

I dont understand "kids" these days...

I have friends that are still waiting after over a year for figures to come into the LGS. I know he has problems getting in the rule books. It is a shame because I am sure people would play if he could actually get models in... now its just wasted money sitting on a shelf.

I wish he would get more paints from P3, I like them better for painting. Sadly he won't order more probably because no one in the store really buys them.

I had a problem with two starter sets I ordered last fall. One was missing the rulebook, and the second was missing two of the larger models. I tried a few different routes: direct call, mailed a letter, email... no answer. The only route that actually worked quickly was going to the PP website and findind the link to contact them with a problem. If you visit their forums and look around you'll find it. I contacted them through this online system and got results immediately- without [i]threats or anything. I just said briefly what was missing and they sent it. The even forgot to send the rulebook, and I recontacted them the same way and got just as fast a response.

Sometimes I think PP is outgrowing its resources to handle shipping and customer service. Their communication between the company and customers is getting really bad. I keep hearing more and more horror stories as more people get away from GW. I really feel sorry for the treatment of the people who invested in Monsterpocalypse. Those players have been really left in the dark about whats happening with the product and its future. All they keep getting is new packaging of the same old stuff.

I'm a big fan of exhausting all other means of resolution directly through the company (which you clearly already have) and then filing a suit in small claims court.

On the left coast, the court fees are $156, and you can include them as part of the lawsuit, in which you can claim up to $25,000. I've generally made a habit of including court costs, gas or other transit costs of driving to the courthouse, my time based on an estimated number of hours dedicated to this task at my calculated hourly rate of pay, and finally the cost of the initial grievance and prime-rated compound interest up to the time of filing, and then I always include the difference between that sum and $25,000 as a combination of compensation for psychological stress, and punitive damages.

Trust me, they will definitely pay attention to you once you do this.

They will likely try to settle out of court and claim that they'll give you your money back, to which you should refuse, as they have now forced you to spend time and money in addition to your original purchase. It's a wonderfully punitive way to make yourself whole again after their infraction on your rights as a consumer, and it will teach them a lesson since you can constantly remind them that none of this would have happened if they had only refunded your money when you asked.

And the best part: If they lose in court (which they will if you've kept records) then you can then take additional steps to place a lean on their company's profits until you are satisfactorily recompensed. It is very unlikely that you will ever be awarded psychological damages or see anyhting even close to the full $25,000 as this is mostly just to get the company's attention. But if you phrase everything else correctly, then it is very likely that you'll force the company to pay to you at least $300 in excess of the value of any tangible goods that you purchased, simply due to court costs, transit fees, et cetera.

azazel the cat wrote:I'm a big fan of exhausting all other means of resolution directly through the company (which you clearly already have) and then filing a suit in small claims court.

Edit: This is not a good approach to take. You're opening yourself up to a major gakstorm.

Charge everything to a credit card. If the product is not delivered, or not satisfactory, dispute the charge.

azazel the cat wrote:I'm a big fan of exhausting all other means of resolution directly through the company (which you clearly already have) and then filing a suit in small claims court.

On the left coast, the court fees are $156, and you can include them as part of the lawsuit, in which you can claim up to $25,000. I've generally made a habit of including court costs, gas or other transit costs of driving to the courthouse, my time based on an estimated number of hours dedicated to this task at my calculated hourly rate of pay, and finally the cost of the initial grievance and prime-rated compound interest up to the time of filing, and then I always include the difference between that sum and $25,000 as a combination of compensation for psychological stress, and punitive damages.

Trust me, they will definitely pay attention to you once you do this.

They will likely try to settle out of court and claim that they'll give you your money back, to which you should refuse, as they have now forced you to spend time and money in addition to your original purchase. It's a wonderfully punitive way to make yourself whole again after their infraction on your rights as a consumer, and it will teach them a lesson since you can constantly remind them that none of this would have happened if they had only refunded your money when you asked.

And the best part: If they lose in court (which they will if you've kept records) then you can then take additional steps to place a lean on their company's profits until you are satisfactorily recompensed. It is very unlikely that you will ever be awarded psychological damages or see anyhting even close to the full $25,000 as this is mostly just to get the company's attention. But if you phrase everything else correctly, then it is very likely that you'll force the company to pay to you at least $300 in excess of the value of any tangible goods that you purchased, simply due to court costs, transit fees, et cetera.

So rather than just get your money back via credit card company you would rather take them to a small claims court ?
Some people eh ?
Im glad i like in the UK.

Inexcusable.

However, as mentioned, PP definitely underestimated how popular things would get.

It took me two months for me to get my Cryx BB. It was missing two warjacks. I sent them an email requesting replacements.

I received no response despite my constant emails.
But after a further 2 months, I received the pieces, an apology letter and a Dhenegra card that had been signed by a few of the developers.

Weird outcome haha

biccat wrote:Edit: This is not a good approach to take. You're opening yourself up to a major gakstorm.

Not in Canada. Our legal system isn't completely broken and our civil court system isn't corrupt. It's actually fairly straightforward and accessible to everyone.

Rayvon wrote:So rather than just get your money back via credit card company you would rather take them to a small claims court ?
Some people eh ?
Im glad i like in the UK.

I don't like the idea of a company getting to hold on to my money where it can't earn me interest. If I pay for a service, I expect that service without exception. Any difficulties in delivering to me the service that I paid for falls under the "that's your problem, not mine" category. A credit card chargeback will not include prime-rated compound interest, and thus is not sufficient as a resolution after such a long time has passed. No, I prefer to reserve chargebacks for cases of fraud, etc.

When companies string people along, it is because the company understands that 80% of people will just give up after being ignored for a long enough period of time. Such a passive action like a chargeback only teaches the company that they won't get away with it THIS TIME. If everyone followed my suggestion, companies would never attempt to give people the runaround once the costly negative consequences of doing so were conditioned into them.

And Rayvon, unless I'm mistaken, the UK civil courts are almost identical to the Canadian system.

azazel the cat wrote:Not in Canada. Our legal system isn't completely broken and our civil court system isn't corrupt. It's actually fairly straightforward and accessible to everyone.

Straightforward and accessible? I'm guessing you don't live in Ontario?

azazel the cat wrote:Not in Canada. Our legal system isn't completely broken and our civil court system isn't corrupt. It's actually fairly straightforward and accessible to everyone.

Given that you're apparently suing everyone under the sun for $25,000 if you don't find their product meets with your expectations, I find the first statement difficult to accept.

azazel the cat wrote:I don't like the idea of a company getting to hold on to my money where it can't earn me interest. If I pay for a service, I expect that service without exception. Any difficulties in delivering to me the service that I paid for falls under the "that's your problem, not mine" category. A credit card chargeback will not include prime-rated compound interest, and thus is not sufficient as a resolution after such a long time has passed. No, I prefer to reserve chargebacks for cases of fraud, etc.

Exactly how much interest do you gain on prime-rated compound interest? Especially for a few hundred dollars?

You'd be lucky to get 3.5%. Even if you're buying an entire WM army and waiting a year, you're topping out at less than $20. Certainly not the $24,800 you're claiming.

Crap like this is why our local distributor called it quits, according to the staff at my nearest gaming store. Endemic problems with filling orders got too bad to take, and as a result, there are no Warmachine stockists anywhere in Finland anymore, which can't be doing any favors to the community's efforts to drum up interest for it.

Really, though, if Privateer Press can't get their crap together over this long of a period, I don't see why they should get any more of my hobby dollar. If this constant barrage of ineptitude, unreliability and failure to communicate is the best they can do, their company deserves to go under.

biccat wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Not in Canada. Our legal system isn't completely broken and our civil court system isn't corrupt. It's actually fairly straightforward and accessible to everyone.

Given that you're apparently suing everyone under the sun for $25,000 if you don't find their product meets with your expectations, I find the first statement difficult to accept.

I'm not advocating "suing everyone under the sun". I advocate first taking all reasonable steps to independently resolve a dispute directly with the other party. (as you are an IP lawyer, I understand that you likely have absolutely no idea what this means )

In Canada an unreasonable case will either be dismissed outright due to lack of evidence, or else will only receive compensation such that the claimant is made whole. That is, absurd psychological damages never get awarded. Unlike the US, Judges in Canada have tremendous autonomy in determining sentencing outcomes. Additionally, Canadian judges do not have to be re-elected, and thus do not need to campaign, and therefore are typically not susceptible to political pressure or lobbyists. Further, the Canadian court system is not built to be exclusionary to the marginalized, like the US system is. Unlike in the US, companies doing business in Canada cannot simply hide behind their money in a courtroom war of attrition against the plaintiff's bank accounts, waiting for the 'little guy' to wither and give up. Unlike the US, our court system is not in itself an economically punitive weapon; it is only a tool to determine what -if any- the extent of a punitive measure should be. This is what I meant by my statement when I said that our legal system is accessible and not completely broken.

biccat wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:I don't like the idea of a company getting to hold on to my money where it can't earn me interest. If I pay for a service, I expect that service without exception. Any difficulties in delivering to me the service that I paid for falls under the "that's your problem, not mine" category. A credit card chargeback will not include prime-rated compound interest, and thus is not sufficient as a resolution after such a long time has passed. No, I prefer to reserve chargebacks for cases of fraud, etc.

Exactly how much interest do you gain on prime-rated compound interest? Especially for a few hundred dollars?

You'd be lucky to get 3.5%. Even if you're buying an entire WM army and waiting a year, you're topping out at less than $20. Certainly not the $24,800 you're claiming.

Allow me to translate your statement:
"Yes, that company stole your money, but it wasn't a lot, so you should just let them get away with it."

Let's put this in another context: someone grabs your wallet from your pocket and runs away. So you run and catch them, and take your wallet back. Now, since you merely took the wallet back, that thief didn't gain anything, but they didn't lose anything, either. This means there's no deterring elements in play to prevent that same thief from taking another wallet ten seconds later, in hopes that this time the victim doesn't give chase.

You see, it's not about the actual dollar value; it's about the principle. The compound interest is just a means to an end of increasing the dollar value as high as possible so as to inflate the severity element of the deterrence equation. The entire point is to (hopefully) operantly condition the company into learning that they will be worse off if they try to pull off a stunt like this again.

azazel the cat wrote:as you are an IP lawyer, I understand that you likely have absolutely no idea what this means

Actually, I'm quite aware of what that means.

Simply because a case can be brought doesn't mean that a case should be brought. Could you sue PP for $25,000 (or whatever the limit on small claims is), but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[quot=azazel the cat]In Canada an unreasonable case will either be dismissed outright due to lack of evidence, or else will only receive compensation such that the claimant is made whole.

GhostxHeart wrote:
But after a further 2 months, I received the pieces, an apology letter and a Dhenegra card that had been signed by a few of the developers.

Weird outcome haha

Maybe insead of sending people unsolicited autographs they could get down to the warehouse and pack some boxes?

Just a thought...

biccat wrote:Private lawsuits aren't intended to be deterrents, they're intended to reimburse you, make you whole. If you want a deterrent, file a class action suit or contact the authorities and file a criminal complaint.

You are aware that a class action lawsuit is just a private lawsuit with multiple complainants, right? They also require an immense amount of money, and thus are often not accessible to most people. I believe I've already addressed that issue.

biccat wrote:This is the type of attitude that can get you in trouble for abuse of process.

Wait, wait wait... is the IP lawyer actually crying foul about abusing the legal system?



In any case, this is NOT abuse of process, as even if the OP had paid with a credit card, it was several months ago. He has clearly demonstrated that he has attempted to have the issue resolved with the company, and the company has repeatedly given him the runaround. At this point, he is most definitely justified in going to court.

Now, you may not value your time, but I certainly value mine. And if I have to waste any significant amount of time just to get my money back through no fault of my own, then I fully intend to attach a price tag to that, at the expense of whoever wasted my time.

azazel the cat wrote:You are aware that a class action lawsuit is just a private lawsuit with multiple complainants, right? They also require an immense amount of money, and thus are often not accessible to most people. I believe I've already addressed that issue.

Quite aware, actually.

In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume I know a lot more than you about the purpose, effect, and procedure for class action lawsuits.

azazel the cat wrote:

biccat wrote:This is the type of attitude that can get you in trouble for abuse of process.

Wait, wait wait... is the IP lawyer actually crying foul about abusing the legal system?

Could you explain this some more? Are you accusing me of abusing the legal system?

azazel the cat wrote:Now, you may not value your time, but I certainly value mine. And if I have to waste any significant amount of time just to get my money back through no fault of my own, then I fully intend to attach a price tag to that, at the expense of whoever wasted my time.

And the judge is going to throw out that measure of damages because it's not recoverable. And if the defendant is feeling particularly vindictive, he's going to countersue for abuse of process because you included damages that are not recoverable by law.

That will usually include attorney fees (to review the complaint), travel time to get to the venue, and whatever time it takes to resolve the case.

biccat wrote:
Quite aware, actually.

In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume I know a lot more than you about the purpose, effect, and procedure for class action lawsuits.

Given that the bulk of my legal knowledge lies within the realm of criminal law as opposed to tort law, I'd tend to agree. Which then begs the question: if you know so much about it, why are you suggesting that the OP burn through his bank account in a class-action lawsuit rather than take action through a small claims suit wherein the cost to him is minimal and entirely recoverable, given that he has demonstrated that he has made every reasonable effort to have this issue resolved privately, to no avail?

biccat wrote:This is the type of attitude that can get you in trouble for abuse of process.

azazel the cat wrote:Wait, wait wait... is the IP lawyer actually crying foul about abusing the legal system?

biccat wrote:Could you explain this some more? Are you accusing me of abusing the legal system?

Not at all; I don't know you personally. However, believe I could make a fairly straightforward argument about how the entire issue surrounding current US IP laws is based on the abuse of the legal system. (MPAA, RIAA, et cetera)

biccat wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Now, you may not value your time, but I certainly value mine. And if I have to waste any significant amount of time just to get my money back through no fault of my own, then I fully intend to attach a price tag to that, at the expense of whoever wasted my time.

And the judge is going to throw out that measure of damages because it's not recoverable. And if the defendant is feeling particularly vindictive, he's going to countersue for abuse of process because you included damages that are not recoverable by law.

That will usually include attorney fees (to review the complaint), travel time to get to the venue, and whatever time it takes to resolve the case.

That claim is easily recoverable. The plaintiff merely has to reasonably demonstrate they the amount of time they spent on the issue, and then demonstrate what that amount of time would cost based on current wages. Buried somewhere within the torts is a guideline of how much of a mileage allowance is considered reasonable, as well. As to psychological damages, this is very easy to show in civil court, though very difficult to show to an extent of $25k. As I said originally, a judge will not likely grant this, but that's not the point. The point is that a $25k suit gets someone's attention a lot quicker than a $250 lawsuit. And in Canada I have never heard of a precedent for countersuits filed based on abuse of process wherein a single suit is filed. (filing a suit every week for a year, yes, that would have precedent.) However, the amount that is being sued for has no bearing on the validity of the case itself. That's why I said in my original post that Canadian judges have tremendous breadth with which to decide cases; they are not limited to analogue choices presented in the suits.

In most jurisdictions within Canada, small claims court is very accessible and easy to use. I am not sure, however, about how easy i would be to use it to sue Privateer as a US company over this. There's probably a procedure for it, but I'm guessing it's a bit more convoluted.

One thing I absolutely agree with Azazel about is that people let companies run roughshod over them when they don't have to. Even up in Canada, we're exposed to enough of the American legal system on tv shows and the news that people tend to have a "you can't ever beat a corporation" mindset.

frozenwastes wrote:In most jurisdictions within Canada, small claims court is very accessible and easy to use. I am not sure, however, about how easy i would be to use it to sue Privateer as a US company over this. There's probably a procedure for it, but I'm guessing it's a bit more convoluted.

So long as that company does business in Canada, the procedure is no different. However, if the company is not based in Canada, then actually collecting any money becomes a slightly more complicated procedure. However, in the case of companies that distribute within Canada, it is again fairly straightforward as it means said company will have physical assets that can be seized after completing the proper paperwork in the event that the company refuses to pay following a court decision.

I don't believe Privateer does. They sell in Canada through distributors and directly from their US location. They're exporters and don't maintain any sort of "Privateer Canada" legal entity.

So after winning your case there, you essentially have a case in a US court getting them to approve of the judgement made here. Though I think there's some sort of registering process you go through and you don't actually have to appear in the US court.

That sounds about right. I don't know the exact process for collecting from an out-of-country entity.

I just wanted to follow up on this topic rather than let it die and have people wonder if it ever got resolved.

Simple answer: it's all sorted out now.

Long answer: I spoke to Adam and he advised me that I was never actually charged for the product and that's why the purchase got "lost in the fold"

I tried to go online and look at my Visa history and unfortunately it only went as far back as 6 months, so I had to order a copy of it.

I received the statements from Visa and went through it and sure enough, I could find no evidence of being charged - so needless to say - I feel stupid.

That being said, the only reason I thought it was charged is I was told it was allegidly shipped not once, but twice, and lost in the mail both times. So it was a clerical error from Privateer Press which the order got overlooked/lost, and also me being the typical lazy North American consumer not reviewing my Visa statements in detail, it was simply overlooked.

So - issue resolved - and I actually ordered a battle box and split the cost with a buddy (I'm starting Menoth, he is starting Khador) and I look forward to gaming with Privateer press!

tl;dr - privateer press clerical error lost my order, i didnt check my visa. Two negatives make a positive? Final result: Everybody is happy/fine

I will say though, PP does have excellent customer service on the phone - Adam was EXTREMELY pleasant to deal with

If you're in Canada and ordering via mail order and not getting individual bitz/parts, I'd recommend going with Miniature Market rather than ordering direct.

I'll second using Miniature Market. I have had many great experiences with them, they keep a large stock of PP stuff, and have a 25% discount along with free shipping on orders over $99.

Excellent! Greatly appreciate the feedback on which shops to go through!

I bought the starter set from an ebayer (that i've bought TONS of stuff for 40k from) so I know it'll arrive