With the popularity of the following threads:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/400146.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/399856.page

I thought it would be great to ask

What is the worst unit per codex that is too situational, too expensive, too inefficient to be fielded??



give reasons if you can

I love these threads because they give a lot of tactical insight to new beginners and a great ideas to search the forum on.




Here is my (partial) list:

Eldar: Shining Spears , horribly overcosted for S6 power weapons on the charge... that become useless in subsequent rounds of combat, really expensive models to buy as well
Dark Eldar: Mandrakes, horrible save, no power weapons, needs pain token for breath attack
Imperial Guard: Ogryns, not enough killing power for a large and expensive model, a tarpit
Necrons: Warriors, slow, expensive, mandatory as the only troop choice
Tyranids: Pyrovores
VM Space Marines: Scouts with sniper rifles, not enough reliably killing power on a static soldier
Tau: Aun 'Va, The space pope (neglible buff, fragile, horrible debuff on your own troops if killed)
Blood Angels: DC, rage units are expensive while being too easy to kite
Sisters: Penitent Engine, rage units are expensive while being too easy to kite
Daemons: Furies





happy to hear your insights, happy to be corrected

you can nominate multiple useless units if you like! Maybe a codex is full of them...


the other cool use would be to build competitive lists that make these units work in a reliable fashion

Vanilla SM: Devastators with anything but the lowest cost tier weapons like MLs.
Vanguard veterans. I can't decide between the two.

I'm going to go with the Shooty Terminators





*Ducks*

Hey now, those shining spears are S6 in the turn they charge, to be fair

Still horribly overpriced though.

My vote for Eldar actually has to go to the poor Swooping Hawks, Pathfinders, and Dark Reapers. As much as I want to love all three of those units, they just don't cut it for their price.

Amanax wrote:Hey now, those shining spears are S6 in the turn they charge, to be fair

Still horribly overpriced though.

thanks lol fixed
compare that to... was it 8pt rough riders? I don't have an IG dex

From what I say:

DE: mandrakes, I want to love them, but they suck all the time everytime
Eldar: Swooping hawks. Not really sure why I feel this way
Tau: Ethereals, in any form
Tyranids: pryovore/biovores. Needs no explanation
Vanilla marines: scout land speeder thingy
Orks: big guns
Chaos marines: chaos spawn
Nercons: flayed ones
Imperial guard: techpriests

Tau: Vespid - They are at best a terrible choice to bring and a terrible choice to upgrade.

Blood Angels: Whirlwind - I cannot see a reason why this thing would ever have a purpose.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Blood Angels: Whirlwind - I cannot see a reason why this thing would ever have a purpose.

Whirlwinds do have a purpose! You need them to make these (which are also better than Storm Ravens lol):
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=6013

severedblue wrote:
Imperial Guard: Ogryns, not enough killing power for a large and expensive model, a tarpit

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Ogryn may be a little overcosted, but they fit in quite well in foot lists. There are worse units in the codex that fill no roll at all.

My vote goes with techpriests and conscripts.

Techpriests because their special rule is too situational and they're an expensive killpoints. Conscripts because for 1 point less than a regular guardsmen, you get a unit with terrible leadership, less WS and BS, no special or heavy weapons, and no ability to take a commissar for the squad. With the ability to take very effective 20, 30, or 40 man blobs with regular guardsmen, conscripts have no use.

Mandrakes are probably only the second or third worst unit in the DE dex.

Worst for my money is the Dias of Destruction; a fast transport that is obligated to be filled with lots of expensive guys - is given two extra guns that it can't shoot if it moves over 6" (and pretty much has to move that far since it has to try to get its expensive passengers into assault). Oh, and you're not allowed to take any upgrades for it, so no Flickerfield, no Night Shields, no nothing - because certainly you can't get a 5+ save onto your biggest and most expensive unit. Thankfully, it's AV 13 and open topped - because...y'know...that's *really* hard to kill...

And it costs over 300% more than the regular Raider which has none of those issues. (not counting the obliagtory 350+ points it has to be carrying...

juraigamer wrote:From what I say:

Tyranids: pryovore/biovores. Needs no explanation

Biovores are awesome. It's just the pyrovores that are terrible.

juraigamer wrote:
Vanilla marines: scout land speeder thingy

The one that lets you get first turn charges and totally changes the dynamic of the game? No, that is objectively a good unit.

Well Shining Spears did have their glory days...
Rough Riders are 10, but they are not 3+ save jet bikes and can only use their lances once.

My list would be

Necrons: Pariahs, expensive, 1 attack each, no we'll be back, dont count as Necrons
IG: Penal Legion, 10 guardsman with lasguns and random abilities, no special or heavy weapons.
Orcs: Looted Wagon, really just all around terrible.
CSM: Spawns, no explanation needed.
Tau: Ethereals, spend points to let your opponent beat you easier
Daemon: Beast of Nurgle, random and just pretty darn weak
BA: Sanguinary Guards: Expensive, no invul, not a lot of attacks, limit to 5 guys.
Eldar: Guardian Defenders, they are really just expensive guardsmen
DE: Decapitator, cost a lot, not likely to do anything
DA: Tac Squad, get Deathwing Termies or Ravenwing Attack Squads instead.
SM: Legion of the Dammed, ridiculously expensive.
SW: Fenrisen Wolves: Easy to kill and cant score.
Tyranids: Pyrovore, no explanation needed...
SoB: Celestians, expensive and not many benefits.

Daemons: Beast of Nurgle and Herald of Nurgle.

Beast of Nurgle are worse (on average) in every way the 2 plague bearer and they cost the same amount of points.

Heralds of Nurgle are the only bad option in the HQ slot. They are slow, don't hit hard and for the points die faster can't take hits as well as most things.

I was going to post something about Templars, but then I realized that every single unit in the Codex has a use. Go figure.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I was going to post something about Templars, but then I realized that every single unit in the Codex has a use. Go figure.

Because our Templar codex only has like a 3rd of the choices compared to 5th dexes

juraigamer wrote:Orks: big guns

No way.
3 kannons with ammo runts shoot like BS4 with krak and frag missiles all for less than 100 pts.
Lobbas means you canuse catapult models and happen to have a good range and do not need LoS.
Zzap guns are marginally better at av14 then the krak missiles and you use up the ammo runts at a slower rate.

But more precisely Flash gitz are the ony unit you do not see being fielded. Plus maybe 3 special characters. The ork codex is awesome.

These are the army lists I know well enough to make a valid assessment.

Necrons: Pariahs Just to damn expensive for what they give. To easy to kill.
IG: Ratling Squad. Snipers fall behind in a world of mech, and 10 points a model for T2 elite snipers. Why take them?
Orcs: Looted Wagon or Flash Gitz. Its a tie between the two. Luckly there are battlewagons/kans to take their place
Tau: Ethereals. Worst model in the game. Its the only model that makes your army weaker.
Eldar: Pheonix lords. Such beautiful models, such a bad IC.
SM: Tac Squads. They suck in shooting and suck in assault. Unless you play bikes or scouts you have to take them
GK : Nothing. You could randomize what units you took from the codex and still have a competitive army.
CSM : Thousand Sons. AP3 bolters with 4++ sounds great in theory. In play they just don't deliver.
SoB : Confessor or Canoness. With the special characters being such great buys, why run these?

CSM: Most undoubtedly Spawn, possessed are not so great either.

Necron: Heavy destroyers... 1w T5 with a big 'shoot me pls' sign painted over their head. also they take spots away from Liths.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I was going to post something about Templars, but then I realized that every single unit in the Codex has a use. Go figure.

Techmarine?

labmouse42 wrote:SM: Tac Squads. They suck in shooting and suck in assault. Unless you play bikes or scouts you have to take them

Really? Granted they aren't the best, but tactical squads are not that bad. They are good at shooting, and perform decently in combat. The only reason they "suck" in close combat is because they get nom nommed by power weapons and get bogged down by units larger then themselves. Plus there are things that suck a lot more. Vanguard vets? They cost 30 points for an assault marine. Whoopie! Scouts suck pretty hard too, techmarines aren't very good either (excepting MotF), and Legion of the Damned are (sadly) not very good.

I dont believe this non-sense about my IG Techpriest being horrible. He's done some wonderful things for me, and he has a convenient price tag for when I just dont have enough points to wring out another squad. Besides, I love watching my 'useless' tanks find themselves back in the fight.

For SM: I say the Legion of the Damned. They just dont quite cut it.

For DA....I'm gonna say Scouts. They take up an elite spot....I mean, really? Why would I pay for BS 3 scouts when I could bring Dreads, Company Vets, or Termies in the same slot?

For my Guard....I'm voting for the Deathstrike. Yeah, its a nuclear warhead on tracks (which is cool!)...but its a 150 pt one shot missle that doesnt deny invulns and has a variable blast radius. In that same vein, I'd vote the Manticore....but I havn't field tested that one yet, so I'll withhold judgement.

For DE....it defaults to Mandrakes. I mean....they're so awesome!...until you realize that their inability to ignore armor means theyre useless.
If you take SCs in this list, I pass the buck to Kurdash The Decapitator...or however you spell his name. I mean, seriously, a melee oriented HQ needs to come in via reserves, can infiltrate to just outside an inch of enemy models.....but can't assault when he comes in. I mean, at least Guardsman Marbo has a Demo Charge and an AP 2 pistol....

Grey Knights....eh? I guess the Brotherhood Champion? 100 pts for an HQ with one wound....I find that hard to justify.

Daemons....for me its a toss up between Furies and Flesh Hounds....I guess it would go to Furies for their lower WS and Initative.

warpgrenade wrote:Necron: Heavy destroyers... 1w T5 with a big 'shoot me pls' sign painted over their head. also they take spots away from Liths.

but in smaller games were you need some close-to deacent Anti Tank and you will phase out in 2 turns if you bring a lith they still can fullfill a roll. Of cource im not saying they are anywere close to competitive with that point cost, but they are still above Pirahas

Teufelhunde wrote:

For DA....I'm gonna say Scouts. They take up an elite spot....I mean, really? Why would I pay for BS 3 scouts when I could bring Dreads, Company Vets, or Termies in the same slot?

DA have the old scouts, so they are BS4, WS4.

PraetorDave wrote:Really? Granted they aren't the best, but tactical squads are not that bad. They are good at shooting, and perform decently in combat. The only reason they "suck" in close combat is because they get nom nommed by power weapons and get bogged down by units larger then themselves. Plus there are things that suck a lot more. Vanguard vets? They cost 30 points for an assault marine. Whoopie! Scouts suck pretty hard too, techmarines aren't very good either (excepting MotF), and Legion of the Damned are (sadly) not very good.

Tac marines really are not that great at shooting. Bolters just don't cut it anymore. They cannot complete with the STR 5 storm bolters of GK nor with the FNP of armies. They can get one special weapon and one heavy weapon. That's that so hot.

The reason they made the 'worst' IMHO is because you have to buy either them or scouts, which are only marginally better (as they can at least be objetive holders)

Ever notice that Old One Eye STINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( I simply hate him as a nid player.... )

Jackster wrote:IG: Penal Legion, 10 guardsman with lasguns and random abilities, no special or heavy weapons.

Penal Legion are definitely not the worst unit in IG. They are good if used properly, although still outshined by the other troop choices. If you look at it as 10 guardsmen with lasguns and random abilities, sure they would suck. What they actually are, however, is a cheap scoring unit that can outflank, and depending on the roll you get they can seriously mess up the opponent's plans. On a non-kp mission, they totally change the game for you by outflanking near an enemy objective. Sure, they probably won't survive to claim it, but you force your opponent to get rid of that annoying 80 point unit.

If they roll knife-fighters, your opponent has to keep pretty much everything more than 12" away from the short board edges. I've had my knife fighters come in and pop tanks, slaughter heavy weapons troops, all sorts of good things.

In for a Penny extends their threat range to a potential 18", but they can no longer threaten vehicles. What they can do with that, however, is be a great 2-3 turn tarpit. Sure they die like guardsmen, but being stubborn will keep them in combat with devastators and the like for at least a couple turns.

Gunslingers is obviously the worst roll, but even with that they still make a great harassment unit and disruption in objective missions. Come in off the table edge, shoot 20 lasgun shots at something with a 30" effective threat range. Sure you'll only kill one marine on average, but if it's a long fang squad there goes their split fire ability, for example. Then, they have to turn and wipe out the legionnaires, to stop them from taking objectives.

I run a hybrid list and include the Penal Legion, and they have never let me down, even winning me a few key matches in tournaments here. For 80 points, what they do for you is really amazing, although as I said in the beginning, more veterans or bigger platoons is generally better.

As for what I think is actually the last choice pick in the IG codex? That has to be Mogul Kamir. Sure, techpriests are pretty bad, some of the Russ variants are bad, but Kamir is the only thing in the IG book that actually makes the unit worse when you pay the points for him.

Haha, well im a true blood I.G player and i have to say in terms of worst unit to field:

#5) Ogryns: pretty decent rules, over priced

#4) Techmarine: you have to be fielding ALOT of armour to make these guys even worth it.

#3) Ratlings: pretty good points/rules wise if the sniper rifles didnt suck

#2) Deathstrike: expensive, vulnerable, and so hampered by its own rules to fire it once that you would have to be crazy to take it. (Crazy like a fox?)

#1) Conscripts: overcosted, useless meat sheilds that one would be insane for even putting on the field. The amount of points you have to pour into making them "meh" makes them even worse. Only use would be Fluff.

oh wait you were able to include heroes too? lol shoot mogul kamir takes the cake then.

IG: A tie between Mogul and Nork. Runners up are Conscripts, Deathstrikes and Ratlings.
Tau: Ari'va and all other Ethereals, then Vespids, then Skyrays.

Jackster wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I was going to post something about Templars, but then I realized that every single unit in the Codex has a use. Go figure.

Techmarine?

Techmarine with Storm Shield and Harness and you've got a nasty bugger to boost a squad's fighting potential. The Signum really helps if you really, really need to get a melta hit too.

For Orks, the Weird Boy is even more useless than Flash Gitz.

Two out of his 6 possible powers are good. On top of that he has to roll randomly for them every turn, which includes an option to blow himself up. On top of that, his LD sucks so he relies on being in a large group of Boyz to even "reliably" use these crappy abilities to begin with. On top of that, he's expensive.

He's fun(ny) but other than that totally useless. Worse than anything in the codex.

Eldar's worst unit is by far Pathfinders.

120 points of nothing. nada. 24 points for a model with a sniper rifle. low volume of fire and damage output, low speed, incredibly susceptible to flamers and fast assault units... just worthless- you might as well call them gargoyle bait and leave it at that.

Swooping Hawks, the infamous flying guardsmen for 21 points a model. Worlds better than Pathfinders. Hawks can at least sky leap every turn, and then move to contest at the end of the game. That could potentially win you a game!

Shining Spears, the infamous close combat juggernauts who are as durable as a tactical space marine, and utterly worthless whenever they aren't charging. But if all things go right they can do some real damage on a charge, and they at least have some tools- like withdraw- to help them in extract and re enter close combat. They also have movement, and jetbikes can help them use LoS blocking terrain. Slightly better than Pathfinders... lol

Dark Reapers- expensive models armed with guns that aren't great against transports. s5 ap3 > Sniper Rifles. Dark Reapers might actually kill something with their guns, and their 3+ armor means they won't instant die as soon as a flamer wanders over.

The difference is that- while bad- the Aspect warriors have the ability to do... something...

I'll actually defend the legion of the damned for the SM. 10 pts less per pop compared to a TH/SS termy and they have the same save. I love to DS these guys in and flash a couple meltas around before forcing someone to tie them up or let them keep gunning away. Possibly my most enjoyable tarpit unit since they can shoot and are 3/4 the cost of their counterparts.

Jackster wrote:
SW: Fenrisen Wolves: Easy to kill and cant score.

The thing about Fenrisian Wolves is that they're a horde unit in a MEQ army. You really need Canis Wolfborne to make them work. Since Canis is making them Troops, they're not competing with Thunderwolf Cavalry for Fast Attack slots. Take 3 or 4 maxed-out packs (and some Grey Hunters if you want scoring units), use the FW to screen your TWC/Thunderwolf-mounted Iron Priests/Canis and watch the blood and guts fly.

akaean wrote:Eldar's worst unit is by far Pathfinders.

120 points of nothing. nada. 24 points for a model with a sniper rifle. low volume of fire and damage output, low speed, incredibly susceptible to flamers and fast assault units... just worthless- you might as well call them gargoyle bait and leave it at that.

Swooping Hawks, the infamous flying guardsmen for 21 points a model. Worlds better than Pathfinders. Hawks can at least sky leap every turn, and then move to contest at the end of the game. That could potentially win you a game!

Shining Spears, the infamous close combat juggernauts who are as durable as a tactical space marine, and utterly worthless whenever they aren't charging. But if all things go right they can do some real damage on a charge, and they at least have some tools- like withdraw- to help them in extract and re enter close combat. They also have movement, and jetbikes can help them use LoS blocking terrain. Slightly better than Pathfinders... lol

Dark Reapers- expensive models armed with guns that aren't great against transports. s5 ap3 > Sniper Rifles. Dark Reapers might actually kill something with their guns, and their 3+ armor means they won't instant die as soon as a flamer wanders over.

The difference is that- while bad- the Aspect warriors have the ability to do... something...

Pathfinders are scoring and get a 2+ cover save because of their über-stealth. I'll let you figure the rest out.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

akaean wrote:Eldar's worst unit is by far Pathfinders.

120 points of nothing. nada. 24 points for a model with a sniper rifle. low volume of fire and damage output, low speed, incredibly susceptible to flamers and fast assault units... just worthless- you might as well call them gargoyle bait and leave it at that.

Swooping Hawks, the infamous flying guardsmen for 21 points a model. Worlds better than Pathfinders. Hawks can at least sky leap every turn, and then move to contest at the end of the game. That could potentially win you a game!

Shining Spears, the infamous close combat juggernauts who are as durable as a tactical space marine, and utterly worthless whenever they aren't charging. But if all things go right they can do some real damage on a charge, and they at least have some tools- like withdraw- to help them in extract and re enter close combat. They also have movement, and jetbikes can help them use LoS blocking terrain. Slightly better than Pathfinders... lol

Dark Reapers- expensive models armed with guns that aren't great against transports. s5 ap3 > Sniper Rifles. Dark Reapers might actually kill something with their guns, and their 3+ armor means they won't instant die as soon as a flamer wanders over.

The difference is that- while bad- the Aspect warriors have the ability to do... something...

Pathfinders are scoring and get a 2+ cover save because of their über-stealth. I'll let you figure the rest out.

And? Any fast moving assault unit is in their face in no time, and they have no way of avoiding it. On top of that, all you can do is pray if they have a flamer. A single normal flamer will ignore that wasted 2+ cover and their pitiful 5+ armor. For an army that relies on speed to survive, the pathfinders just don't cut it.

SM have a couple of utterly unplayable units.
-Legion of the damned is a freaking joke, other things perform better at less points.
-Vanguard vets are just way to expensive.
-Sniper scouts, no reason to take something that cant kill anything and is static and terrain dependent the whole game.
-Tacs, suck at everything and get trashed by anything, people only take tacs because they must and because scouts are even worse.
-Devastator squads, who ever takes these units, every SM chapter codex after SM has better "devastator" equivalents. 50+ points for a stationary lascannon marine with a SM tac statline? Really?
-Honour guards. Expensive marines that require a crap HQ to be taken and that you need to dump even more points into (a librarian) in order to get them a unreliable and weak inv save. Never seen used and that for a good reason. Useless.

Grey knights:
There are some units that are pure crap and never seen in other then fun fool-around games.
-Jokaero. Banana monkeys nobody takes due to insane point costs for what little they do.
-Psycher squads. Worthless with all the Ld nerfing armies out there.
-Banishers. Really?
-Deamonhosts. Might want to use randomised grots driving randomised trukks instead, you never know what will happen and thus cannot plan or rely on them one bit.
-Purgation squads. Ever seen one of them taken...ever? Non deepstrike stationary minis with overpriced weapons and a power never used while taking up a heavy slot? Don't think so.
-GK Captains. Never, ever seen any and there is a good reason for that. Overpriced and over shadowed to say the least.


I mean the awful useless crap that passes in each and every codex, even the most popular ones like the SM codex is gakking staggering. Who are GW hireing for the codex unit balance anyway. You can teach slowed monkeys to do a better job using random number generators...an you only need to pay them in fruit.
The result is the same every time, 30% of the units/wargear ends up n e v e are being taken due to total uselessness.

This is just based on my experiences with these armies:

Chaos Space Marines - Bikers, Raptors, Spawn
Grey Knights - Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
Imperial Guard - Techpriest, Ratlings (as far as snipers go, they're good, but snipers are weak in general), Leman Russ Punisher, Deathstrike Missile Launcher (what a piece of garbage), Penal Legionares, Mogul Kamir, Griffon (why would you waste a Heavy Support slot with this?)
Necrons - Pariahs, Heavy Destroyers
Space Marines - Chapter Master (not worth the +25pts), Techmarine, Vanguard Veterans, Honour Guard, Whirlwind
Space Wolves - Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Iron Priest, Lukas the Trickster (he costs as more than the squad he comes with!), Skyclaws, Swiftclaws, Ulrik the Slayer, Whirlwind
Tau - Vespid apparently, Aun'Va, Etherials
Tyranids - Pyrovore (duh), Ripper Swarms (garbage), Lictor, Old One Eye (NOT worth his points by any stretch of the imagination), Sky-slasher Swarm

Chowderhead wrote:I'm going to go with the Shooty Terminators





*Ducks*

Yeah... tactical terminators can be amazing if used properly. Taking 5 of them with no upgrades is probably going to suck, but 10 of them with a couple cyclone launchers and a couple chainfists is a solid core for an army.

In Codex Space Marine, I'm going with Servitors. I mean really... are they good for anything, ever? Maybe in a giant apocalypse game with a bunch of landraiders or something....

-Myst

Pyrovores for the nids, no explanation needed.
I find that scarab swarms might be the least usefull unit in the cron'dex. Either them or flayed ones. At least ripper swarms can be tunnelers.

I'd have to say every special character in codex: GK. They are all either way to expensive points wise, or just have horrible/useless special rules. All the Inquisitorial henchmen also make this list as discussed earlier. The Dreadknight is a an expensive terminator armor on steroids.

GreyChaos wrote:I'll actually defend the legion of the damned for the SM. 10 pts less per pop compared to a TH/SS termy and they have the same save. I love to DS these guys in and flash a couple meltas around before forcing someone to tie them up or let them keep gunning away. Possibly my most enjoyable tarpit unit since they can shoot and are 3/4 the cost of their counterparts.

I'm going to (relatively) agree with you on this. IDK why people say they suck that much. They aren't awful, and they pale in comparison to some of the other choices. The legion are more of a fluff choice, so they are understandably expensive. But honestly, I would pay to have some storm shield termies running around with Multi-meltas all the time. It could be all sorts of fun.

Chowderhead wrote:I'm going to go with the Shooty Terminators





*Ducks*

*swings his bat* *misses*
God damn it!

Shooty terminators are 50x better than vanguard veterans.

With all the hate going to CSM spawn.....I'm going to make a list centered around them.....and WIN!!!

DA:assault marines by far. They fail in cc , are expensive and lack good weapon options.
Tactical marines can do laserbackspam and scouts can actually hit things.

SM:Can I go for servitors? Other units have their places, assault marines do not work but still have their place. But servitors even for a cheap unit are a waste. Maybe running them in a landraider with a techamarine so they can charge tanks and repair the landraider.

Murrdox wrote:For Orks, the Weird Boy is even more useless than Flash Gitz.

Two out of his 6 possible powers are good. On top of that he has to roll randomly for them every turn, which includes an option to blow himself up. On top of that, his LD sucks so he relies on being in a large group of Boyz to even "reliably" use these crappy abilities to begin with. On top of that, he's expensive.

He's fun(ny) but other than that totally useless. Worse than anything in the codex.

You should try playing with him. He's cheap the only issue is he takes up a HQ slot and he is a little random. I find in most games he achieves awesomeness unlike meks with kff who have awesomeness thrust upon them.

Secondly have you played with flash gits? They are best used in cc despite being a shooting unit and take up a heavy slot.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Grey Knights - Ordo Xenos Inquisitor

Wait what? The one Inquisitor that has access to banana-crazy grenades?

Pyriel- wrote:-Jokaero. Banana monkeys nobody takes due to insane point costs for what little they do.

One day I intend to make a 1500 point Grey Knight force of 40 Jokaero and Coteaz.

Possibly with the option of having coteaz a countsas jokearo that's stolen some armour.
And probably with something stupid like the option to bring it up to 2000pts with a 'looted' jokearo storm raven. (a pair of jokaero for pilots, the guns jokaero hanging off it etc)

But yeah monkey army. It's the only option I'd take in a GK force

Dark Eldar it's mandrakes and how. All they'd need is either 2 wounds, to start with a pain token, a better CC attack (even if it was rending or something) or to have Kherudrakh be an independant character. Any one of those would make them usable... but as is not so much.

IG: How about the Rough Riders?

Rampage wrote:IG: How about the Rough Riders?

Rough Rider are good anti-charge unit, they just don't get much credit because they share the same slot as Vandettas

GreyChaos wrote:I'll actually defend the legion of the damned for the SM. 10 pts less per pop compared to a TH/SS termy and they have the same save. I love to DS these guys in and flash a couple meltas around before forcing someone to tie them up or let them keep gunning away. Possibly my most enjoyable tarpit unit since they can shoot and are 3/4 the cost of their counterparts.

3++ is most definitely not the same as a 2+/3++ save.

Amanax wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

akaean wrote:Eldar's worst unit is by far Pathfinders.

120 points of nothing. nada. 24 points for a model with a sniper rifle. low volume of fire and damage output, low speed, incredibly susceptible to flamers and fast assault units... just worthless- you might as well call them gargoyle bait and leave it at that.

Swooping Hawks, the infamous flying guardsmen for 21 points a model. Worlds better than Pathfinders. Hawks can at least sky leap every turn, and then move to contest at the end of the game. That could potentially win you a game!

Shining Spears, the infamous close combat juggernauts who are as durable as a tactical space marine, and utterly worthless whenever they aren't charging. But if all things go right they can do some real damage on a charge, and they at least have some tools- like withdraw- to help them in extract and re enter close combat. They also have movement, and jetbikes can help them use LoS blocking terrain. Slightly better than Pathfinders... lol

Dark Reapers- expensive models armed with guns that aren't great against transports. s5 ap3 > Sniper Rifles. Dark Reapers might actually kill something with their guns, and their 3+ armor means they won't instant die as soon as a flamer wanders over.

The difference is that- while bad- the Aspect warriors have the ability to do... something...

Pathfinders are scoring and get a 2+ cover save because of their über-stealth. I'll let you figure the rest out.

And? Any fast moving assault unit is in their face in no time, and they have no way of avoiding it. On top of that, all you can do is pray if they have a flamer. A single normal flamer will ignore that wasted 2+ cover and their pitiful 5+ armor. For an army that relies on speed to survive, the pathfinders just don't cut it.

They DO have a way of avoiding it as no fast moving assult unit should be able to get anywhere near them if you play Eldar right. The Eldar have ways of stopping fast moving assult units in their tracks. And I've done it on innumerable occasions. They aren't anywhere near as bad as I've heard tons of people on the internet proclaim. But they do take practise to get the best use from them. One of the best ways for stopping fast moving assulters?...Night Spinners, Pinning Weapons, blocking, putting them in middle floors on buildings so it takes a while for the fast moving units to get to them. There are plenty of ways of mitigating fast movers.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:This is just based on my experiences with these armies:

Space Wolves - Iron Priest

I'm just going to repeat what I said in another thread about the Iron Priest:

Teln wrote:Putting an Iron Priest on a Thunderwolf Mount gives you a S10 Thunder Hammer that can move up to two feet in a single turn and still assault. Give him a pack of Cyberwolves to act as ablative wounds, and you've almost got a Thunderwolf Cavalry unit, except it's taking up an Elites slot, instead of a FA slot. Let me say that again: This does not compete with TWC for Force Organization slots.

Iron priest with shooty servitors is not too bad either though mounted is the way to go. Skyclaws headstrong makes them too hard to control and gets my vote.

tedurur wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:I'll actually defend the legion of the damned for the SM. 10 pts less per pop compared to a TH/SS termy and they have the same save. I love to DS these guys in and flash a couple meltas around before forcing someone to tie them up or let them keep gunning away. Possibly my most enjoyable tarpit unit since they can shoot and are 3/4 the cost of their counterparts.

3++ is most definitely not the same as a 2+/3++ save.

He made a bad comparison.
I would compare them to drop podding AoBR dreads. They both land and can multimelt stuff when they land. 3++ makes them better than a dread.
If you use tigerius you reserve your entire army, try to bring everything on in turn 2 and use the Legion of damned as your drop podding melting dreads.
Or with Vulkan they come quite nasty.

In either case not really the most useless, maybe a tad expensive granted, but most certainly the prettiest.

severedblue wrote:
Daemons: Furies

I disagree, beast of nurgle is way more useless than furies. Furies are jump infantry, and are useful for board control in an army which is relatively highly un-mobile. Beast of nurgle, though, is slow, not really that tough, and not worth the points, not reliable to do damage, unless maybe your running a tallyman list. Furies can at least deny an area for your opponent, or jump over meat shields to tie up HW/shooty squads.

Jihallah wrote:

severedblue wrote:
Daemons: Furies

I disagree, beast of nurgle is way more useless than furies. Furies are jump infantry, and are useful for board control in an army which is relatively highly un-mobile. Beast of nurgle, though, is slow, not really that tough, and not worth the points, not reliable to do damage, unless maybe your running a tallyman list. Furies can at least deny an area for your opponent, or jump over meat shields to tie up HW/shooty squads.

Theyre about the same in my scale, they all DS so they can all "get there"

I disagree. Raptors can act like small anti-tank squads. They can be in squads of 5 and be given 2 meltaguns, for 120 pts including being jump infantry. OR you can get some 10-15 man squad and give them MoN. T5 Jump Infantry is no laughing matter.

Teln wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:This is just based on my experiences with these armies:

Space Wolves - Iron Priest

I'm just going to repeat what I said in another thread about the Iron Priest:

Teln wrote:Putting an Iron Priest on a Thunderwolf Mount gives you a S10 Thunder Hammer that can move up to two feet in a single turn and still assault. Give him a pack of Cyberwolves to act as ablative wounds, and you've almost got a Thunderwolf Cavalry unit, except it's taking up an Elites slot, instead of a FA slot. Let me say that again: This does not compete with TWC for Force Organization slots.

In pretty much any other set-up, Iron Priests are crap. The only reason you'd take them is because you're running more than 15 Thunderwolves.

IG- deathstrikes
SM- vanguard veterans/shooty terminators

Teufelhunde wrote:I
Grey Knights....eh? I guess the Brotherhood Champion? 100 pts for an HQ with one wound....I find that hard to justify.

Isnt the champion the guy who can one hit kill anything he touches? Like, Greater Demons?

Phiasco II wrote:I'd have to say every special character in codex: GK. They are all either way to expensive points wise, or just have horrible/useless special rules. All the Inquisitorial henchmen also make this list as discussed earlier. The Dreadknight is a an expensive terminator armor on steroids.

Really? I think at the very least, both Crowe and Draigo are both fantastic. Draigo is an absolute monster in close combat. Yes, he is 275 points. But unlocking palidins as troops and then putting Draigo in a said paladin squad will just rape face. Especially one with a banner. And Crowe unlocks purifiers as troops. These guys are amazing at everything, its almost not fair. 2 psycannons per 5 man squad? Yes please. throw them in razor spam and you have a very nasty army. With Crowe, you just point him towards the nearest big bad nasty character and almost hope he dies, just to Heroic sacrifice the ur target. I do however completely agree with the henchmen aforementioned. My vote for worst units in the armies I have are as follows:

Nids: gonna agree with everyone else and say pyrovore.
SM: Either servitors or assault marines/vanguard vets. none of these have ever done squat for me.
Orks: This is actually kinda hard to say, a number of units could be worthless depending on the randomness of the army. tankbustas usually do horrible for me.
Chaos: yeah, possessed are terrible. but really, nearly half the codex is relatively useless in competitive play.

tedurur wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:I'll actually defend the legion of the damned for the SM. 10 pts less per pop compared to a TH/SS termy and they have the same save. I love to DS these guys in and flash a couple meltas around before forcing someone to tie them up or let them keep gunning away. Possibly my most enjoyable tarpit unit since they can shoot and are 3/4 the cost of their counterparts.

3++ is most definitely not the same as a 2+/3++ save.

plus the fact that they have half the strength. I've fielded legion of the damned at least a dozen times, and only once did they make up thier points with a flukey multi-melta shot blowing up a hellhammer in one shot.

Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

I'm gonna have to agree with Thor on the Dias being the worst unit in the Codex.
An un-upgradable, overpriced Ravager with no Aerial Assault rule and a mandatory 100+ of cargo in addition to the 400+ the thing already costs, and it becomes the first target for anyone with a brain.

Possibly with the option of having coteaz a countsas jokearo that's stolen some armour.
And probably with something stupid like the option to bring it up to 2000pts with a 'looted' jokearo storm raven. (a pair of jokaero for pilots, the guns jokaero hanging off it etc)

lol
Wonder what would happen if the monkeys "enhanced" the Emperors golden throne.

Penal Legion are actually incredible! DIE, DIE, DIE foolish MANDRAKES :(

Pyriel- wrote:

Possibly with the option of having coteaz a countsas jokearo that's stolen some armour.
And probably with something stupid like the option to bring it up to 2000pts with a 'looted' jokearo storm raven. (a pair of jokaero for pilots, the guns jokaero hanging off it etc)

lol
Wonder what would happen if the monkeys "enhanced" the Emperors golden throne.

haha I would imagine they would add an HDTV with TiVo, the 'works' of game consoles, a heavy gatling gun, an earthshaker cannon and a very shiny blender.

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Also, to defend conscripts, if you take Commander Cheknov they have some limited use, as they don't take up any additional FO slots (being appended to a platoon) and you can get a fresh 50 models on a whim, which is killer in objective games. You can also use them as a blob in combat, because even if they're worth crap in close combat, 100 attacks on a charge is gonna do some serious damage.

Lordraymond wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Also, to defend conscripts, if you take Commander Cheknov they have some limited use, as they don't take up any additional FO slots (being appended to a platoon) and you can get a fresh 50 models on a whim, which is killer in objective games. You can also use them as a blob in combat, because even if they're worth crap in close combat, 100 attacks on a charge is gonna do some serious damage.

^ what he said.
I even converted the horrendously overpriced fortress of arrogance for him.

Lordraymond wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Also, to defend conscripts, if you take Commander Cheknov they have some limited use, as they don't take up any additional FO slots (being appended to a platoon) and you can get a fresh 50 models on a whim, which is killer in objective games. You can also use them as a blob in combat, because even if they're worth crap in close combat, 100 attacks on a charge is gonna do some serious damage.

Im sorry but what? A str 6 PF is not impressive and how you have managed to destroy countless dreadnoughts when you can only glance them is beyond me..Also, what inv save?

tedurur wrote:

Lordraymond wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Yarrick

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Im sorry but what? A str 6 PF is not impressive and how you have managed to destroy countless dreadnoughts when you can only glance them is beyond me..Also, what inv save?

The point is, he's worth it for pure survivability. He can happily last a game in CC with terminators, a daemon prince, etc, and eventually he's gonna either die after taking out some and tying up the unit for the whole game, or win and wiped out the squad. He can tie up 90% of deathstar units for numerous turns, and dropping them one by one.

SM: Vanguard Veterans
IG: Ogryns, Deathstrike Missile
Orks: Looted Wagon

Yarrick is horribly overpriced for what he does, but in a power blob he becomes mildly useful. Add Straken for furious charge & counter attack and you get some nasty Guardsmen- on the charge with a 30 man powerblob (or when being charged), you get 63 S4 I4 attacks, 9 of them Power Weapon attacks and 4 S6 Power Fist attacks, all re-rolling to hit. And it doesn't matter that Yarrick is an IC and can be singled out in CC since he's so damned tough.
Although you should only use this in Apoc since it's insanely expensive.

shrike wrote:I even converted the horrendously overpriced fortress of arrogance for him.

I wouldn't call it horrendously overpriced. For 160pts more than a regular baneblade you get a fair number of extras, such as extra BS and the ability to have Yarrick assault out of it. It isn't cheap but isn't too bad when you consider Yarrick is included in the cost.

Trickstick wrote:

shrike wrote:I even converted the horrendously overpriced fortress of arrogance for him.

I wouldn't call it horrendously overpriced. For 160pts more than a regular baneblade you get a fair number of extras, such as extra BS and the ability to have Yarrick assault out of it. It isn't cheap but isn't too bad when you consider Yarrick is included in the cost.

point.

Plus Fortress of Arrogance looks cool.

Orks - Flashgitz

Ok, from a modelling/fluff/killteam perspective these guys are friggin aweseom. Hell, I even converted a bunch of boyz into them.
But from a gaming perspective....

Necrons - Pariah
Again, awesome fluff, great models but can't be used effectively in a game.

Dark Eldar - Mandrakes
See above

I'm not saying Yarrick is the most amazing of amazing ICs, and he's certainly not a must-have, but he's FAR from the worst in the codex.

Griffons are pretty bad, considering that you pay for something that something else (The Medusa, I think) can do even better, and at longer range.

Nids with the pyrovore and the Carnifex

on the carnifex: They used to be the staple of any army, and running 6 of them +2 HT's in a 1500 point game is a killer, but nowadays, the only way you can make them be useful is through double devourers, which have more attacks, but they dont get re rolls on both hits and wounds like in 4th edition,
Fluff wise, unbeatable, but otherwise, they are kinda weak

For nilla its legion of the damned. If they were cheaper then yeah i'd use em but atm they're too expensive for a suicide unit!

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

I'm going to have to defend Harker here. I know that he is pretty expensive, but paying 55 points to make one of the most reliable anti-tank squads in the game outflank or infiltrate could very well be worth it if you do it properly.
Imagine having a wall of chimeras going up the field of battle. The opponent of course backs up to avoid being murdered, and you hit him from the side in a turn where he haven't got the time to deal with the threat and take out one of his tanks, while Harker and his squad still lives. I use him most for infiltrating harrasment in friendly games, but the ability to outflank or infiltrate, while being able to cap objectives and being kitted out for extreme anti-horde or anti-tank can make him worth it if you do it poperly. Being a total bad-ass, and making his squadmates complete badasses is just a bonus

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

severedblue wrote:
Daemons: Furies

I disagree, beast of nurgle is way more useless than furies. Furies are jump infantry, and are useful for board control in an army which is relatively highly un-mobile. Beast of nurgle, though, is slow, not really that tough, and not worth the points, not reliable to do damage, unless maybe your running a tallyman list. Furies can at least deny an area for your opponent, or jump over meat shields to tie up HW/shooty squads.

Theyre about the same in my scale, they all DS so they can all "get there"

They can "get there" like a drop pod squad can- once they are there, they are THERE- what happens when you need them here? Less like a drop pod squad though, since you don't have a guidance system and can mishap. Mobility in daemons is a selling point, its kind of why people love fiends so much

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

Storm Troopers, Basilisks and HWS certainly arent anywhere near useless.

Ovion wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:-Jokaero. Banana monkeys nobody takes due to insane point costs for what little they do.

One day I intend to make a 1500 point Grey Knight force of 40 Jokaero and Coteaz.

Possibly with the option of having coteaz a countsas jokearo that's stolen some armour.
And probably with something stupid like the option to bring it up to 2000pts with a 'looted' jokearo storm raven. (a pair of jokaero for pilots, the guns jokaero hanging off it etc)

But yeah monkey army. It's the only option I'd take in a GK force

Dark Eldar it's mandrakes and how. All they'd need is either 2 wounds, to start with a pain token, a better CC attack (even if it was rending or something) or to have Kherudrakh be an independant character. Any one of those would make them usable... but as is not so much.

UGH... Someone showed up to 'ard boyz with 6 psyriflemen dreads and 26 monkeys in chimeras. That's as close as i've seen.

The main barrier is really cost for it.

£7.70 a monkey, 40 monkeys that's £308. £338.50 with Coteaz and the Codex. :(

That's roughly 3 times the budget of my Skaven force, twice my Dark Eldar and 2-3 times my Tau...

For Space Wolves; I'm going to go with Blood Claws, the extra swing on the charge isn't that helpful when they have such limited options elsewhere on the table. Fenresian Wolves can get up close faster, hit more reliably and just as hard; as well as having more models to blob on opponents. Grey Hunters are simply better than darn near any other Troop choice in the game, between gear options, counter charge, and cost, they outshine Claws so badly its almost embarrassing.

What's the SoB last choice?

Cannoness? Repentia?

Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines, Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard, get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK. Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines, Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard, get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK. Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines.

At ten models, you get a free special weapon, usually of the plasma or melta variety. Plus they always have both Bolt rifle and pistol, giving them greater flexibility in range; and MotW which makes up for any lack of CC weapons

Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard

Ld 8 is poor now? Don't tell IG that, they might stop being amazing! Also, wasting an Elite slot? As opposed to what, Scouts? Wolf Guard are Grey Hunters on steroids so you have to almost try to mess them up; plus taking Logan makes them troops.

get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK

You're comparing them to another army, which really has no bearing on what makes them the worst unit in their own Codex.

Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Because they don't suck?

Okay, now take everything you just said, and take away 1 WS and BS, you now have Blood Claws, the worst unit in the codex.

Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines, Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard, get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK. Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Obvious troll is obvious...

boj0 wrote:

Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines.

At ten models, you get a free special weapon, usually of the plasma or melta variety. Plus they always have both Bolt rifle and pistol, giving them greater flexibility in range; and MotW which makes up for any lack of CC weapons

Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard

Ld 8 is poor now? Don't tell IG that, they might stop being amazing! Also, wasting an Elite slot? As opposed to what, Scouts? Wolf Guard are Grey Hunters on steroids so you have to almost try to mess them up; plus taking Logan makes them troops.

get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK

You're comparing them to another army, which really has no bearing on what makes them the worst unit in their own Codex.

Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Because they don't suck?

Okay, now take everything you just said, and take away 1 WS and BS, you now have Blood Claws, the worst unit in the codex.

He was being a troll obviously.

Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Chaos marines: id say spawn undoubtedly
Blood Angels: techmarine with jump pack. Really?
Dark eldar: mandrakes. Dont take for the love of Russ please. I wouldn't wish a unit of mandrakes on my worst enemy.
Space Marines: thunderfire cannon. So easily broken
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit
Tyranid: pyrovore
Eldar: those bloody swooping hawks.
Imperial guard: leman russ eradicator
Grey knight: inquisitor valeria with her mad knife-that-bites-back
Necron: everything

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit

Ethereals are worse. Pay to give the army a giant "shoot this to win" Marker.

Vespids can be used to work with copious amounts of cover.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit

Ethereals are worse. Pay to give the army a giant "shoot this to win" Marker.

Vespids can be used to work with copious amounts of cover.

I raise you a space pope.

??

severedblue wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit

Ethereals are worse. Pay to give the army a giant "shoot this to win" Marker.

Vespids can be used to work with copious amounts of cover.

I raise you a space pope.

??

He doesn't count. He is hands down the worst in the whole game.

Yea, spend points to let your opponent run your army off the table.

Jackster wrote:Yea, spend points to let your opponent run your army off the table.

I think we have some votes for the worst unit in the game.

Does he have ANY redeeming qualities? Is he a force multiplier of some sort, for example? If you keep him in a devilfish ala farseer style, is that any mitigation?

severedblue wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yea, spend points to let your opponent run your army off the table.

I think we have some votes for the worst unit in the game.

Does he have ANY redeeming qualities? Is he a force multiplier of some sort, for example? If you keep him in a devilfish ala farseer style, is that any mitigation?

Every Tau that can see Aun'Va are stubborn.


I did have an Idea for Gunline tau that used Shadowsun and Aun'va.

Use Aun'Va and his friends Hanz and Franz to assault everything until they die, Keep all your Tau in Shadowsun's Leadership Bubble. When Aun'va dies, your Tau will have Space Marine Leadership thanks to Shadowsun's bubble and wil not flee as much, PLUS they gain Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy.

S6 Crisis Suits with three attacks will hurt something. Not TH/SS termies, but s6 hurts.


Never really went anywhere with this list, because you are looking at about 1/5 of your army being below average Special Characters, which means less Suits/Railguns/Markerlights/Speed bumps.

And I remember Chimley on the Old 40k Radio (Prior to whatever happened with Spencer and the crazy death threats from trolls) saying he ran an Ethereal just to get him killed for the Preferred Enemy.



Got WAY off topic, but not really. Stubborn is cool and all, but if your tau are in CC, you have bigger things to worry about than lowered Leadership.

I saw a Swooping Hawk theme army on E-Bay

IS fluff really that compelling to create an army of entirely sub-par units?

If I had the money I'd make a shining spear / jet bike army myself... if they had a Phoneix Lord that would be even better...

Benn Bloodmane wrote:
Space Marines: thunderfire cannon. So easily broken

You've not seen the casualties a single round of shooting a TFC can do to a horde. 20 dead ork boyz in one turn isn't out of the question.

severedblue wrote:I saw a Swooping Hawk theme army on E-Bay

IS fluff really that compelling to create an army of entirely sub-par units?

If I had the money I'd make a shining spear / jet bike army myself... if they had a Phoneix Lord that would be even better...

Swooping Hawks can be of some effect vs. vehicles with haywire grenades, the ability to hit fast vehicles on a 4+, and an 19"-24" assault range.

Against infantry, the number of STR 3 shots they can put out just does not cut it. STR 3 only works in massive numbers, like IG flashlights.

SM: Lotd
Tau: Vespids
BA: Tech marines
Dark eldar: Mandrakes
IG: Ogryns
Orks: SaG

CSM: Spawns, possessed, for sure. Lucius, Ahriman (he is too expensive and dies by one rocket), bikes (33 points for what??).

GK: Valeria, Karamazov (well, he is just not so strong as other HQ's), b.c.Stern.

Daemons: furies, daemonettes, beasts of khorne.

Necrons: pariahs, flayed ones, warriors.

The reason swooping hawks are better than Pathfinders is because there is actually things they can do.

Imperial Guard can suck on a s4 ap5 large blast that only scatters d6 inches every turn the Hawks deep strike. And since with an Autarch they come in on a 3+ turn 2, and a 2+ on turn 2, and can sky leap every turn, you can drop those grenade packs nearly every turn, and its impossible for the IG to shoot them, since they are never on the table on their turn. Then on turn 4 you deep strike them someplace relatively safe, turn 5 you move 12 inches, fleet + assault to contest an objective. (or if you're feeling ballsy deep strike + fleet them to contest and cross your fingers about scattering...) Over all these are all cool and useful abilities. I'd argue that Hawks are considerably better than Shinning Spears and Rangers.

Plus the Sun Rifle is a bad ass piece of wargear- Bs 5, assault 6, pinning, sure its only s3, but still if you want to shoot with them the exarch shoots about as well as 4 hawks and has pinning to boot.

So yea, Hawks are over priced and totally not worth it- but they aren't the worst unit in the codex...

Hawks can't be the worst unit, when the same codex has Shining Spears.

I want to love shining spears. Jousting jetbikes sounds awesome. But with a cap of 5, being really costly in points and money means it's not worth it. (Sure it's easy to convert but still. Points cost.)

CSM: Spawn. Contrary to popular belief, Bikers and Raptors can have a place in any CSM list; Raptors are a cheap tank-hunter squad, while Bikes can be a psychological tool. Double meltagun bikers turbo-boosting turn 1 can draw a lot of fire away from other crucial aspects. They run pretty well in my list. However, Spawn are a sick joke.
Guard: Ratlings (with the advent of plasma/melta spam, you've got more than enough tools for dealing with MC's. Why bother with these guys?)
Orks: Looted Wagons; 'nuff said.
Nids: Pyrovores, Sky Slasher Swarms, and 'fexes (with a few exceptions).

For SW Blood Claws, why would anyone trade +1 ws +1 bs for +1 attack on the charge?

I'm sure it's possible to mathhammer it to see how many blood claws you would need in additional attacks to make up for a drop in the number of wounds inflicted, when compared to similarly equipped Grey Hunters

DakkaDakka wrote: