So rumor has is the DAs are getting either the next codex (after Necrons) or the first 6th edition codex.

So the DAs are a sad mess of half-baked concepts mashed together. They're some kind of American Indian, Biker, Monk, half-way to heresy, conspiracy, ancient tech marines. Who are green. But sometimes black. Or maybe white. There might be a good concept in there but damned if I can find it. And y'know my first army was an all-Beakie DA force!

So it's time for my regular round up of things we need more than another Big 4, I mean Big 5, I mean big 6 codex.

To be fair I'm limiting myself to armies GW can do with only a few new kits rather than starting a whole army from scratch.

10 - Hypothetical new Marine chapter: The red, green, grey and blue marines have had codexes for what, 15+ years? The black space marines for 10+, the shiny marines for slightly less. You'd think by now everyone interested in them would have an army now. A hypothetical Codex Red Ronins or Zulu Warriors or well anything NEW for Marines would be just as easy to make a codex AND persuade people to start new armies.

9 - White Scars: Cooler bikes than the Raven Wing, bold color scheme, non-European background AND they would fill a niche of fast cavalry marines which the other chapters really don't do.

8 - Raven Guard: The Other Black Space Marines could be the high-tech special forces modern commando marine force. Again a whole new look for marines that's not currently filled.

7 - Iron Hands: THe Other Other Black Space Marines with their bionics and funky tech could become a tough but slow chapter.

6 - Salamanders: The Other Green Space Marines are among the few non-white chapters (well before GW retconned them into hideous red-eyed ash-skinned mutants) and once upon a time had a distinct playing style with their Initiative of 3.

5 - Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists: Write them as shooty siege marines who win through discipline and firepower rather than assault and you have a whole new appeal for Marine players.

4 - Deathwatch: The Marines in Black like the Shiny Marines are a small elite force specializing in shooting stuff. They have a new RPG which makes them appeal to new players and with some Ordo Xenos inquistion forces and funky Xenos allies would be a cool new army.

3 - Chaos Legions: Pick one. Any one. All of them. WHatever. Any of those options is more interesting than more @#$#ing loyalist marines.

2 - Rogue Traders: Again RPG cross over appeal. A whole mess of units, renegade marines, Kroot, humans, servitors, lots of fliers and shuttles. It would be amazing. Just amazing. So they'll never do it.

1 - Lost and the Damned/Renegade Guard/Chaos Cults: It's time.

1, 2, 3, and 4,

all yes, please though, for the love of terra no more plain SM codexs....deathwatch is like, GK elite style, but their not grey knights

Where's "Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus"?

But yeah, that and Codex: The Lost and the Damned are both prominent elements that I'm surprised never had a codex. I'm okay with the Dark Angels Codex existing, but it really needs a revamp so that it doesn't feel like "Codex: Bleh Marines with Ravenwing and Deathwing".

10.) Hrud
9.) Adeptus Custodes
8.) Adeptus Arbites
7.) Deathwatch
6.) Flesh Tearers
5.) New Assassins Codex
4.) A new Alien Faction
3.) A new non-Imperial Human Faction
2.) Adeptus Mechanicus
1.) Lost and the Damned

.

5 and 6 fo' sho'.
My 2 favorite Chapters.

I don’t want a Deathwatch Codex. The threat of Ward writing it and ruining all the beautiful FFG fluff would just be too high.

“Fear Watch-Captain Gustavo as he carves his name into the Hive Mind and roams the web way destroying Craftworlds!”

No... just no.


All that said I’m actually surprised at you Kyoto – that you’d want a whole stack of other Marine Codices. I think a lot of Marine Chapters deserve their own rules (as opposed to a Special Character that gives them rules), but whole Codices. I’m also surprised that you don’t think the Dark Angels are a salvageable army.

I think that giving up and running away from the bland grey mess that the Dark Angels currently are is a mistake. I think they can be fixed and be made to be more than just the slightly-off-Codex that they currently are (and if I’m being honest, the Dark Angels are more divergent than the Blood Angels, who are just red Ultramarines in nearly every respect). Weirdly enough I agree with the guy at GDOZ who said he’d re-emphasise on the Deathwing and Ravenwing to make them more unique than “We use Terminators” and “We use bikes” which is what they currently are.

You mentioned that the Dark Angels are a mess of concepts, and I think that those concepts can remain as long as they are compartmentalised within each of the subgroups. So take the American Indian aspects that exist already and re-focus them to be all about tradition and remembering your ancestors and whatnot, and then make that unique to the Deathwing. You also mentioned the conspiracy side of things, well take that and re-focus that element just on the Ravenwing – make them the hunters that keep things secret both from within and without. And then take the robe-ish monk stuff and apply that to the more standard/Codex Dark Angel forces.

If you can do a Chaos army with 9 Legions (or however many it is), you can do a mostly Codex Chapter with two special sub-groups.

Combine 1 and 3, ditch 2, turn 4 into a general Inquisition Codex, and give the next Vanilla Marines codex Legion Rules to allow people to play options five-ten and I'd agree.
Surprised an Ad-mech codex isn't on there, it's definitely an option I'd pick over all bar the Chaos Legions/Lost and the Dammed codex, if the latter had the Dark Mechanicus too.

Tau ¬.¬

More serious:
Chaos Legions would be nice, but they'd have to be revamped moreso than a marine chapter that already has most of the line in plastic, and only really needs a conversion kit. The only Legion I can think of that already has mainly plastic is World Eaters and their plastic Berzerkers.

Deathwatch would be cool, and would give GW a way of marketing more of their conversion kits, for people to use to denote which Deathwatch Marines are from which Chapter, in conjunction with a Deathwatch kit providing everything else.

Encourage the use of multiple boxes from multiple lines, and you save having to bring out tonnes of stuff, and can even see sales rising as people buy tactical sets, Space Wolf sets, BA sets etc. to complete their DW army, and maybe take a liking to the remnants of the SW/BA kits they just butchered for bitz and start collecting them as a side army, maybe even have some custom background for their BA successor and their links to the Deathwatch.

How about any of the codexes that haven't been updated to 5th edition first, then we worry about IoM Codes 24 through 36.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don’t want a Deathwatch Codex. The threat of Ward writing it and ruining all the beautiful FFG fluff would just be too high.

“Fear Watch-Captain Gustavo as he carves his name into the Hive Mind and roams the web way destroying Craftworlds!”

No... just no.

I want to sig this so bad. Can I? :3

I think we have plenty of armies as is. We should look into updating what we have right now to 5th/6th.

You may.

11. Squats

But Dark Angels are unique! They can take Plasma Cannons! Oh, wait.

But Dark Angels are unique! They can take Mortis Dreadnoughts! Oh, wait.

But Dark Angels are unique! They can take Terminators as troops! Oh, wait.

But Dark Angels are unique! They can take high level Chaplains! Oh, wait.

But Dark Angels are unique! They have a rich Native American cultural vibe that is totally still supported! Oh, wait.

But Dark Angels are unique! They can take Bikes as troops! Oh, wait.

3, 4, 6, 7, & 9 I'd like to see.

But my top ten would be slightly different.

10. White Scars
9. Iron Hands
8. Deathwatch
7. Skaven Expy
6. Lizardmen Expy
5 'Nids again
4. Orks
3. Tau
2. Cron
1. Chaos Legions

djphranq wrote:11. Squats

Also, this. Doesn't even need to be the same squats as before. Doesn't even need to be called Squats. Just do some space dwarves, dammit

Jesus... and people think all I do is complain. Way to completely miss the point ph34r.

The "American Indian" aspect of the Dark Angels has effectively been retconned into being a kind of parable told to recruits which changes as they become more and more initiated within the Chapter's mysteries.

The biggest problem with Dark Angels is that the uniqueness has been taken away and given to the "generic" Space Marine forces.

It's time to bring back some uniqueness.
They're the First Legion. Have them break out some archaic technology from the Vaults within the Rock.
Deathwing with "Devastator" Terminators packing Plasma Repeaters, swords which effectively are Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields which deal kind of "reflected damage", etc would be a fantastic way to start differentiating them.

Ravenwing with Outriders mounted upon what effectively are "gunships", Land Speeder Tempests, etc would be a good start.

But the real weak link in the army list as it stands is Azrael and the forces he brings to the table.
The man is the fething Supreme Grand Master of the Unforgiven Chapters and he can't even call in orbital bombardments? The man goes nowhere without his personal Battle Barge, The Sword of Caliban, and he somehow can't let his whole army Drop Pod or Deep Strike? He's fully initiated into the Deathwing and Ravenwing, yet he can't call them into service?

I've done up ideas for "combined Codices" where you'd get 3 or so Chapters per book, with each book focused upon an 'archetype' for the Space Marines--and think it could be done for both the Loyalists and Traitors.

Deathwatch though...I worry seeing them turned into an army by themselves. I don't want another Daemonhunters/Grey Knights.

Molten Butter wrote:Where's "Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus"?

My rule from the start was an army that, like all the marine variants, is already 70%, 80% done and would just need a few kits to flesh it out. That's alway why I put up a slew of MeQ suggestions.

IMHO the Adeptus Mech would need cyborg tech guard, hulking skitari, robots, walkers, electro priests, etc etc and don't really fit my self-imposed rules.

Some more ideas that do and are not MeQs...

#11 - Catachans: Cats are among the 3rd edition armies that once had codexes but lost them forever. But they can come back. An army of infiltrating, scouting, stealthy guardsmen would work. Cut out most of the heavy tanks from their army list, leave them with Valks and maybe Thunderbolts so they can call in Arclight strikes. It would be a tricky, fragile army that would have to keep moving to be wiped out.

#12 - Adeptus Arbites: Roman Legions are cool. Vikings are cool. Knights are cool. Y'know what else is cool? Cops. SWAT teams, hard boiled detectives, gunslinging sheriffs, all very very cool. So Carapace BS4 humans with hard as nails riot shield lines, backed up by APCs, penal legions, snipers, tarantula guns, psi judges, an undercover cop with twin pistols who pops up Callidus style... yeah, way cool.

#13 - Harliquins: The best damn Space Elf idea GW ever had. And the smallest most elite army ever. Flesh out some of the options, make a plastic Trouper set and you're good to go. Even I - Elf Hatah Numero Uno - would buy them. Plus they would get Land Raiders as a transport choice.

#14 - Assassins: Y'know what else is cool? Ninjas. Ninjas are awesome. They own Pirates. So where's my codex Ninja? WHERE? Death Cult assassins as troops, 36 varieties of assassin in the rest of the slots. NINJAS!

#15 - Kroot: Along with the Catachans they too are a lost army. Make a box of Kroot variants, give them some more giant Krootasaurus Rex monsterous creatures and let the Cannibal Chickens from Space loose upon the universe!

Kroot 'dex would be hella-fun, I'm not going to lie.

You are not giving Adeptus Arbites Tarantula Guns before I get them in my Guard Codex.

Since we're wishlisting though...

Codex: Wardens of the Gate.

Cadian Shock Troops, while the poster boys currently of the Imperial Guard...really aren't the best example of the Imperial Guard's methodology.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Jesus... and people think all I do is complain. Way to completely miss the point ph34r.

It is you who completely missed the point, as my post is totally in agreement with KK: Dark Angels have nothing unique left to them any more. His suggestions would all be better than another DA book.

Another Eye of Terror Codex and something like Armegeddon.

Seriously playing smaller battles that scale up to something -massive- just has a aura of sweet around it.

I would like to see a small campaign codex.

One on some backwater planet with a bunch of no name Commanders that has no real bearing on the fluff.


If nothing else, it would be fun to watch.

Tau, haha, who am I kidding. Seriously though. I want Tau.

More Marines? Ah, yeah, probably more marines.

In the grim darkness of the future there exists small groups of highly trained super soldiers. They fight with the might and ferocity of 500 men, watched in awe by regular men like angels carving death across a battle field. They are the elite fighting force of the Imperium, they are Space Marines, and they are everywhere.

I want my lost and dammed back!
Loyalist wise, Raven Guards! Who doesnt like sneaky ninja space marines!

My first interest in 40K was Dark Angels, so I personally would still like to see them, but actually done well (not as much as I'd like to see White Scars and new Plastic Space Marine and Scout Bikers, though!).

I think the biggest mistake with Dark Angels is focusing on their secret. This is the FIRST Legion, people! Not the second, or the sixth. FIRST! The book needs to deal with all of the big, dramatic victories and battles of the Dark Angels. It needs to make the regular companies compelling and interesting. The Chapter isn't Terminators and Bikers, plus blah marines. The Chapter should be ten Companies of battle-hardened Warrior-monks. Battle-brothers eternal whose armor is contempt.

The secret ONLY makes sense when the entire Chapter seems magnificent, heroic (if not really approachable) and majestic. The secrecy only makes sense if the battle-brothers trust each other with their lives, but unknowingly are kept in the dark. The 'dark secret' of the Dark Angels needs to be contrasted with the larger than life, epic grandeur of the Dark Angels Chapter.

Their bikers don't need to be 'better' than White Scars. They aren't more accomplished; they have their own agenda. Their terminators don't need to be 'better' than any other Chapter's terminators. They are still the same veterans; they just guard a dark and horrible secret.

The entire Codex needs to be written (if it is written) to establish the Dark Angels entire as a respected, even feared Chapter whose deeds ring down the ages.

Heck, not to minimize heresy, but other Chapters have suffered catastrophic losses and rebuilt. Istvaan, anyone? Battle for Macragge? Even if all the Imperium knows is that long ago, half of the Chapter fell in battle, they've had thousands of years to rebuild. It should be, for everyone but the Dark Angels, a minor footnote in history. A single, catastrophic loss in battle, yes, but one that happened a long time ago.

Out of a thousand Marines, only about what, 200 of them will even have any inkling of what is at stake. The rest of them, like the Ultramarines, or the Salamanders, or whoever, are going to be out there kicking ass and taking names. If you DO want to involve their dark secret, then it needs to involve the 80% of the Chapter that has no freaking idea about the secret, as well as the Ravenwing and the Deathwing.

The Dark Angels need to be portrayed as monks for a reason. To be secluded from worldly concerns (UNLIKE LUTHER). To be focused on the tasks before them (UNLIKE LUTHER). To be disciplined in mind and spirit (UNLIKE LUTHER). The Dark Angels need to be portrayed as serious, sober, focused warrior-monks. They should perhaps look down on undisciplined, uncouth Marines like the Space Wolves, empire-builders like the Ultramarines, indulgent fanatics like the Black Templars, artists (and highly strung emotional types) like the Blood Angels, and sentimentalists like the Salamanders.

You could portray the Dark Angels as seeing themselves as chosen for a higher calling; being transformed into a post-human built for the act of war. They might see human obsessions and concerns as things that should be put aside, and a more pure focus maintained.

They also need to be written so that the average Dark Angel trusts and endorses the behavior of the Chapter. As it is, what does a regular Tactical Marine think when his commander pulls the entire force out of a battle for some private agenda? Instead, the Dark Angels need to 'understand' (even if they don't know what is really going on) when they are reassigned. They might be trained to view themselves as the tip of the spear, or the Angels of Death. "We arrive and turn the tide. That is all. Lesser men can see to the aftermath." They might be trained (as the Lion evidently was) to have a great, and particular, grasp of tactics. Quick, surgical, tactical strikes might be a common method of war, and utilized all the time, rather than just when the Fallen are sought.


Long answer, I know. But what I want to see is any Codex other than a well-written, well-though out Dark Angels Codex. We don't need another Bathrobe Marines with Terminators and Bikers book.

Imperial Fists? Really? The very image of a codex Marine chapter? God no. I love my Crimson Fists and I wouldn't want them or anyone else to have a new Marine codex. As the owner of entirely too many Marine armies, we don't need any more loyalist Marine books. Now a Chaos Legions one, that I'm all for. Aside from them and something like LatD/Genestealer cults/Adeptus Arbites I don't want any new armies in the game. GW takes long enough to update existing ones.

I vote none of those. There are enough damn marines in the game as it is.

1. Tau
2. Eldar
3. Chaos Marines/Legions
4. Chaos Daemons
5. Orks

omerakk wrote:I vote none of those. There are enough damn marines in the game as it is.

1. Tau
2. Eldar
3. Chaos Marines/Legions
4. Chaos Daemons
5. Orks

well, has to be a IoM dex after Necron so those are out. I'd like to see some kind of non Marine non guard human codex. Mechanicus or Arbites would be interesting.

Chaos Legions, for the love of all that is holy.

I miss my basilisks :(

I've personally always loved the dark angels models, think deathwing terminators can look absolutely amazing once painted up properly.

But theres some other codexs that I would like to see first.
1. Ad-Mech
2. Deathwatch
3. Chaos Legions
4. Tau
5. Crons
6. My personal favourite idea,
Codex Tanith First and only,

Hmmm...Soul Drinkers codex.

Buckets of fun.

Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect
DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

Thing is, DA, BA, SW and Ultramarines have been the poster boys for the marines since RT, mainly near the end when they were the schemes being painted up and their chapter markings fleshed out in the WD's and supplements.
As it currently stands the DA codex is, imo, useless. If 5th edition and the new shiny marines were round the corner when it was written, then the new toys should have been in there such as honour weapons.
The uniqueness has been stripped from them by doing what you say the other chapters deserve more than, the special character that changes an army composition. So what to do with DA when that happens? They become just regular MEQ with no special rules that would have people buy their kits?
The roles of deathwing and ravenwing and their chapter composition make them in GW's eyes deserving of a stand alone codex.
That and the tiresome job of deleting nerd rage emails

But honestly, if anything else should be done instead of DA its bring the older armies into line, or those people are agreeing are in serious need of help like 'nids.

Brother SRM wrote:Imperial Fists? Really? The very image of a codex Marine chapter? God no. I love my Crimson Fists and I wouldn't want them or anyone else to have a new Marine codex. As the owner of entirely too many Marine armies, we don't need any more loyalist Marine books. Now a Chaos Legions one, that I'm all for. Aside from them and something like LatD/Genestealer cults/Adeptus Arbites I don't want any new armies in the game. GW takes long enough to update existing ones.

What about a joint Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Codex? GW already sells things that can apply to both.

forruner_mercy wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Imperial Fists? Really? The very image of a codex Marine chapter? God no. I love my Crimson Fists and I wouldn't want them or anyone else to have a new Marine codex. As the owner of entirely too many Marine armies, we don't need any more loyalist Marine books. Now a Chaos Legions one, that I'm all for. Aside from them and something like LatD/Genestealer cults/Adeptus Arbites I don't want any new armies in the game. GW takes long enough to update existing ones.

What about a joint Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Codex? GW already sells things that can apply to both.

They REALLY don't need their own codex at all. Both of them are 100% codex adherant.

It confuses me why GW didn't stick with the style of the 2nd edition Codex: Angels of Death. Put 2 distinct chapters into a single book and it increases the scope for sales (don't like red marines? buy the green ones!) and frees up more space in the release schedule for non-imperial codexes. How many of you own more than one marine chapter? Personally I ignored Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights releases because I already have DA.

The only reason for me to start in a new army in the last 12-18 months was because a friend gave me 1000pts of his old Eldar to build on. The last 'new' codex I bought was 'nids. None of the recent releases have grabbed my attention due to lack of variety.

Does this alternative codex list appeal to anyone else?:

1. Space Marines (Codex Chapters)
2. Blood Angels / Dark Angels
3. Space Wolves / Salamanders
4. Grey Knights / Deathwatch
5. Black Templars / White Scars

That gives a little more variety to marine releases, introduces more scope for people to update their old armies and compresses things down a little so we can enjoy more xenos releases.

We don't need more variety to Marines, we need more variety to everything else. Chaos Marines seem to follow exactly the same tactics for every legion judging by the current codex, wheras I've always felt there should be
1) Chaos Legions (Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons)
2) Renegade Legions (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords) Though the Word bearers worship the gods, they're undivided rather than changing like the Black Legion.
3) Alpha Legion. They follow completely different tactics to any other Marines, and this has yet to be represented.

Also two Imperial Guard codices to represent the difference in mechanised and foot slogging regiments.

xttz wrote:
Does this alternative codex list appeal to anyone else?:

1. Space Marines (Codex Chapters)
2. Blood Angels / Dark Angels
3. Space Wolves / Salamanders
4. Grey Knights / Deathwatch
5. Black Templars / White Scars

That gives a little more variety to marine releases, introduces more scope for people to update their old armies and compresses things down a little so we can enjoy more xenos releases.

I think this looks good. More chapters getting attention but one less codex. I would hate them to add another space marine codex though. Or even human. I would rather the Xenos get some love.

IMO
The IG should get more books
ie:
1 Catachans
2 Steel Legion
3 Cadia

(SM have like 5 , and there are billions more guardsmen)

So instead of "Yet another boring space marine codex that you don't personally like", you want "Yet another boring space marine codex that you do personally like"?

Give me a break, I'm glad you're not running GW, otherwise we'd have 20 space marine chapters on the shelves and nothing else.

All your picks are yet another tired rehash of space marines that will add yet another codex to the list of "stuff GW will update first before even thinking about giving [insert army that they've ignored for 5-10 years here] a refresh".

I want my Eldar codex dammit, I've been waiting since early 4th edition.

Not an 8th marine codex (yes there are currently 7 space marine codexes of some variety or another), not a 9th marine codex either, and certainly not a 10th marine codex. Got that?

And for the record, I have a black templars army, so I am in no way biased... I'm glad they got some new model kits, but I have no idea why they were given a codex when a single page in codex space marines (unlimited LR crusaders, a bunch of special rules) would have done the job.

scarletsquig wrote:So instead of "Yet another boring space marine codex that you don't personally like", you want "Yet another boring space marine codex that you do personally like"?

Give me a break, I'm glad you're not running GW, otherwise we'd have 20 space marine chapters on the shelves and nothing else.

All your picks are yet another tired rehash of space marines that will add yet another codex to the list of "stuff GW will update first before even thinking about giving [insert army that they've ignored for 5-10 years here] a refresh".

I want my Eldar codex dammit, I've been waiting since early 4th edition.

Not an 8th marine codex (yes there are currently 7 space marine codexes of some variety or another), not a 9th marine codex either, and certainly not a 10th marine codex. Got that?

Providing you weren't including Chaos in that (One codex? We'll show you, with your METAL BAWXES) then, this. There's enough marines. It's time to let normal troopers, Xenos, or the bad guys have some limelight.

Cerebrium wrote:Chaos Legions, for the love of all that is holy.

I miss my basilisks :(

You miss your basilisks? Feh, I played WordBearers/Alpha Legion. I miss my EVERYTHING!

Scarlet - and by "early 4th" you mean "last 18 months of 4th", right? (November 2006)

tedurur wrote:
So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect

Which is exactly hat should have been done a decade ago...

DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

And most never needed their own codex in the first place, and the DA have, since even back in 2nd edition, been stated as being a rather Codex chapter aside from the methods of operation of their Veteran and Bike companies (1st and 2nd IIRC?) being employed en-masse routinely rather than split up to support other companies.





As to what I'd rather see, I'd rather just amalgamate the various SM books and replace them with a couple new factions. Cut the 6 SM books to 3 (Codex Chapters, Non codex chapters, Chaos Legions) with an add-on to C:Codex Chapters for post-heresy Renegades, and toss in say, AdMech and something else, perhaps Hrud or something, and as a results we get two new factions with the same number of books without needing to add time to the marketing release pipeline while still covering all the bases and no longer needing to make more and more outlandish stuff for marine chapters which are essentially non-entities in the greater 40k universe simply to justify their own books for nothing more than their own sake despite sharing the vast majority of their statlines, wargear, special rules, weapons, vehicles, etc.

Cerebrium wrote:Chaos Legions, for the love of all that is holy.

I miss my basilisks :(

the inclusion of the bassy in all honesty was probably a mistake, while they'd appear in IW armies, they'd likely be relegated to what functionally would be traitor guard and Lost and the Damned forces that are fighting as slave troops for the Iron Warriors, and thus best represented with other books and Apoc battles.

I am pretty much against another Marines book. Would I prefer that all of the founding legions have their own things to make them unique? Sure. However the options for Space Marines is already varied enough.

I like suggestions for Rogue trader, Kroot, and Catachans interest me most.

1. Rogue trader- easily done with a mish mash of what's available. So many fun possibilities with this one.

2. Kroot - I thought the Kroot Merc rules were balanced and not overpowered in any way. The options were great and you can go so many ways based on what your forces are eating.

3. Catachans - were a great unique force with a lot of character. I think it's a shame that they were lumped in the IG codex.

Wouldn't mind seeing any of these. I think before this there really needs to be an emphasis on updating the current books. Don't care what army it is, start at the oldest and just update them.

$pider wrote:I am pretty much against another Marines book. Would I prefer that all of the founding legions have their own things to make them unique? Sure. However the options for Space Marines is already varied enough.

I like suggestions for Rogue trader, Kroot, and Catachans interest me most.

1. Rogue trader- easily done with a mish mash of what's available. So many fun possibilities with this one.

2. Kroot - I thought the Kroot Merc rules were balanced and not overpowered in any way. The options were great and you can go so many ways based on what your forces are eating.

3. Catachans - were a great unique force with a lot of character. I think it's a shame that they were lumped in the IG codex.

Wouldn't mind seeing any of these. I think before this there really needs to be an emphasis on updating the current books. Don't care what army it is, start at the oldest and just update them.

I would not mind a Catachans codex, but their models, oh god their models. DOW2 Ret made them look awesome because they had proper human proportions. Heck I almost started playing them because of that game, but then I saw derped out Rambo on the GW website.

scarletsquig wrote:
I want my Eldar codex dammit, I've been waiting since early 4th edition.

Here I go, stirring up a storm of such proportions that the Gods themselves will tremble: Wait your turn. Templars are the oldest current Codex unless you include Assassins, Craftworld Eldar and similar.

Vaktathi wrote:

tedurur wrote:
As to what I'd rather see, I'd rather just amalgamate the various SM books and replace them with a couple new factions. Cut the 6 SM books to 3 (Codex Chapters, Non codex chapters, Chaos Legions) with an add-on to C:Codex Chapters for post-heresy Renegades, and toss in say, AdMech and something else, perhaps Hrud or something, and as a results we get two new factions with the same number of books without needing to add time to the marketing release pipeline while still covering all the bases and no longer needing to make more and more outlandish stuff for marine chapters which are essentially non-entities in the greater 40k universe simply to justify their own books for nothing more than their own sake despite sharing the vast majority of their statlines, wargear, special rules, weapons, vehicles, etc.

Chaos isn't meant to be played the same as Loyalist Marines! They're meant to have their own equipment and style, not to be 'Space Marines, but bad.' Splitting daemons from CSM was a terrible idea, since it left them without much of what made them unique, especially one they eliminated the gifts...

Cerebrium wrote:Chaos Legions, for the love of all that is holy.

I miss my basilisks :(

the inclusion of the bassy in all honesty was probably a mistake, while they'd appear in IW armies, they'd likely be relegated to what functionally would be traitor guard and Lost and the Damned forces that are fighting as slave troops for the Iron Warriors, and thus best represented with other books and Apoc battles.

I don't see how giving a Basalisk to one faction of CSMs is any worse than the special rules of loyalists to be honest...

I just think that there needs to be more focus on Xeno armies. Space Marines are great and all, but I'll bet Space Marine Players would like it if they occasionally faced something other than Space Marines. Right now the only Xeno faction that is remotely close to top Tier is Dark Eldar- and frankly that's ridiculous.

Tyranid's book is tough to compete against mech spam with, Eldar, Tau, and Necron haven't been updated in ages- which is why they are starting to fall off.

Hopefully when the Necron codex comes out we'll see some more Xeno armies afoot.

Seriously though, I know it will never happen but it would be awesome if GW scythed all but one Loyalist Marine Codexes. That way they can have a normal update schedule

SM, Guard, CSM, Deamons, Eldar, DE, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks and maybe Sisters.

That gives a far more manageable number of codexes to release and keep updated, which would make for more varied games at higher levels, make SM players feel like they are actually fighting the enemies of the Imperium rather than an endless civil war against other loyalist marine chapters and squabbling about "who loves the Emperor more".

This means that the update schedule won't be clogged with needing to get through a ridiculous number of special snowflake Chapters who keep getting more and more ridiculous fluff and naming conventions in order to justify them getting their own special snowflake book. Wolfy Wolfinson the wolf lord with his wolf tooth necklace and wolf claws riding on his thunder wolf. Same with the Blood Angels, everything in the codex has blood in its name- considering that they are more obsessed with blood than the World Eaters... its kind of ridiculous.

Seriously, as has been said all you need to do to make space wolf and blood angel codex is an HQ character like Salamanders, White Scars, Imperial Fists and all the others have.

Space Wolves- replace combat tactics with bolter, ccw, pistol and counter attack

Blood Angels- Assault marines can be taken as troops, option to include a squad of death company.

or are SW, BA, DA, and BT all somehow more special and deserving than the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, and White Scars are? Not to mention the entire lack of love given to Emporer's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons or Death Guard. Seriously, what makes those codexes so much more important than other founding chapters that they deserve their own books?

Its honestly kind of hard to have epic thousand sons v space wolf battles when the sons have 1 troop choices in a old book combining all of chaos space marines, and the space wolf codex is one of the strongest out there, its more like who wants to watch the Thousand Sons get curb stomped more than anything.

Durza wrote:
Chaos isn't meant to be played the same as Loyalist Marines! They're meant to have their own equipment and style, not to be 'Space Marines, but bad.'

Where did I say otherwise...?

Splitting daemons from CSM was a terrible idea, since it left them without much of what made them unique, especially one they eliminated the gifts...

In concept it's not a terrible idea, rather the execution. They wanted it to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Chaos which to a degree is understandable, they just botched the execution so bad they might as well have just made it Codex: Marines with spiky bits and Codex: Everything we took out of Chaos Space Marines.

I don't see how giving a Basalisk to one faction of CSMs is any worse than the special rules of loyalists to be honest...

It's not, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea, most of the loyalist special butterfly things aren't either. It basically amounted to simply taking a unit from an unrelated army where it really only fits in games where a larger strategic picture comes into play.

My opinion on how GW could be awesome, assuming there will be a new edition in 2012 (no facts, just speculation.) This also assumes a few things:

1) The First Founding Chapters that diverge from Codex get their own 'dex.
2) Update armies to 5th before we revise existing 5th Ed codexes.

Start up 2-4 project teams, who alternate down this list cleaning them up for 5th edition or prepping them for 6th.

Excluded from the lists - Necrons (getting theirs by years end,) Dark Eldar (just released,) Grey Knights (solid list already,) Blood Angels and Space Wolves (solid list already,)

12. Dark Angels
11. White Scars (Bikes+REd Paint Job from Orks+Furious Charge on bikes...)
10. Raven Guard
9. Orks
8. Imperial Guard
7. Eldar
6. Chaos Space Marines (closer to their "you are marked like your Lord or are unaligned," and return to the fluff that not all of them are out to kill the Empire, but rather to liberate it from 'mystecism and tyranny' as the dude says in 300.)
5. Eldar Harlequins
4. Tyranids (Lets get back to making them super customizable)
3. Lost and the Damned (The Fallen, Renegades, etc)
2. Sisters of Battle (Plastic Sisters or just kill the line for good)
1. Tau

Suggested New Codexes
Adeptus Mechanicus (as a web-only PDF or a 2-part WD release.)
Adeptus Arbites (as a web-only PDF or a 2-part WD release.)
Adeptus Custodes (as a web-only PDF or a 1-part WD release.)
Lost and the Damned (#3 on release)

Vaktathi wrote:

Durza wrote:
Splitting daemons from CSM was a terrible idea, since it left them without much of what made them unique, especially one they eliminated the gifts...

In concept it's not a terrible idea, rather the execution. They wanted it to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Chaos which to a degree is understandable, they just botched the execution so bad they might as well have just made it Codex: Marines with spiky bits and Codex: Everything we took out of Chaos Space Marines.

So freaking true. As of now we're playing codex spiky marines.

There are enough new books IMO. Having waited some 8 years for a new ogre book. Hey necron players do you want to wait another 10 years for a new book because GW is pleasuring all these space marine players? Combine some codex if you want more IMO.

GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

Seaward wrote:GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

I really think you're wrong! We're telling them to start producing more devilfish varieties

Kid_Kyoto wrote:9 - White Scars: Cooler bikes than the Raven Wing, bold color scheme, non-European background AND they would fill a niche of fast cavalry marines which the other chapters really don't do.

What's wrong with European background? Is it because of western civization is formed in there or what?

Codex: Death Korps of Krieg would be really nice to see with 3rd Reich background.

Doesn't the Krieg design follow WWI French more than WWII era Germans? Steel Legion fill that role a bit better (going as far as to have the lightning bolt symbol in their collars).

Seaward wrote:GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

It also doesn't help that non-SM armies will often go a 6-10 years without an update with nowhere near the model or marketing support.

Of course the line isn't going to sell as well if it's not updated or supported and is portrayed most often in marketing materials and stories simply an adversary for Space Marines.

Why buy the army that costs half again as much and won't get updated for years with an incomplete model line when you can do Space Marines instead?

Kylis wrote:

What's wrong with European background? Is it because of western civization is formed in there or what?

Codex: Death Korps of Krieg would be really nice to see with 3rd Reich background.

the DKoK background is not related in any way to the second world war, nor is their visual appearance. They are an amalgamation of WW1 french/german uniforms with a far greater inspiration from WW1 for their story than anything WW2.

Durza wrote:We don't need more variety to Marines, we need more variety to everything else. Chaos Marines seem to follow exactly the same tactics for every legion judging by the current codex, wheras I've always felt there should be
1) Chaos Legions (Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons)
2) Renegade Legions (Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords) Though the Word bearers worship the gods, they're undivided rather than changing like the Black Legion.
3) Alpha Legion. They follow completely different tactics to any other Marines, and this has yet to be represented.

Also two Imperial Guard codices to represent the difference in mechanised and foot slogging regiments.

I'm totally for this, but it could probably be condensed to one book, Chaos Legions, with each getting a set of special rules and units, which build upon the 4th ed. codex. Maybe each cultist legion gets a point reduction for their corresponding units (ie, Death Guard get Plague Marines for cheap), along with Plague Dreads/Tanks, or something along those lines, and even better would be a special rule making their FNP ID resistant or something. And then do this with everyone else. Like, with alpha legion, give near everyone scout, deep strike, and/or infiltrate, or with Night Lords give them an extra D6 movement on everything, like Ork Stormboyz, with an reasonable drawback.

As a side note, do Chaos Marines count as Space Marines? I ask this because if so, it could be next after Necrons.

tedurur wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect
DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

My sentiments exactly and they have been around just as long as the BA. The DA codex was the testbed for the new SM codex, but still suffers from all the problem they found and fixed in the SM codex. Do I think it should be next? Maybe not, Necrons and Tau need it more, but I do think it needs fixing.

For the Lion!

I, for one, would support the idea of more IG codices.

Particularly the idea of making one main book for standardized Imperial Guard that's longer than a normal codex and expands upon as many Imperial Guard regiments as possible, various battles and such and give the base rules for playing Imperial Guard.

In addition to that, they could make several much shorter booklets on specific regiments - one for Praetorians, one for Cadians, one for Mordians, one for Tallarn, one for Vostroyans, one for Catachans, one for Valhallans, etc.
Give all of them plastic kits and then release more regiments - Savlar Chem Dogs, Necromundans, etc. - and upgrade packs that you could make these regiments with. Not exactly the most economically viable solution, but it'd make everything more interesting. Same system could be used for other armies, I guess.

Even Codex: DKOK would be really interesting.

I'd also support bringing back as many of The Lost and Damned as possible - Heretic Guardsmen, etc.

Although, before releasing anything new, they should really update everything to 5th Edition. Move on from there.

Vaktathi wrote:

Seaward wrote:GW throws out more Marine books because Marines sell. Want more xenos books? Buy more xenos.

The analogy I always use in this situation is that it's like telling McDonald's to cut back on burgers and start producing more fish sandwich varieties.

It also doesn't help that non-SM armies will often go a 6-10 years without an update with nowhere near the model or marketing support.

Of course the line isn't going to sell as well if it's not updated or supported and is portrayed most often in marketing materials and stories simply an adversary for Space Marines.

Why buy the army that costs half again as much and won't get updated for years with an incomplete model line when you can do Space Marines instead?

Chicken or the egg, which came first?

There was a time when everything was brand new, prior to Necrons, Tyranids, Tau...and people still went for Space Marines. The majority of GW's fan base likes Space Marines. Thus, the majority of what GW produces is Space Marines.

Games Workshop is in the business of selling overpriced plastic toy mens. If they thought they could increase profits by dumping everybody but Space Marines, they would do so. If they thought they could increase profits by writing thirteen Eldar codices, they would do so. They're driven by the market.

How about a more radical solution and separate the rules and the fluff?

For example you could have "Forces of the Imperial Guard", which lists all the different unit rules /points etc.

You can then have a Codex: Cadians, Codex: Catachan, etc that provide background, painting guides, mission archives and the like. They could also be used to give force specific modifications (such as minimising tanks in Catachans), force specific battle mission scenarios, etc.

Great thing with that is when you want to update the rules the fluff books can stay on the shelves. And you can progressively add more fluff books as and when a designer has some time or a cool idea, or you want to just sell another damn book, without it screwing with game balance.

Seaward wrote:There was a time when everything was brand new, prior to Necrons, Tyranids, Tau...and people still went for Space Marines. The majority of GW's fan base likes Space Marines. Thus, the majority of what GW produces is Space Marines.

But that is based on four points that don't change:

* Easy to paint (ie "huge" areas of featureless armor)
* Super easy to play (I don't even play my Loyalists or my Chaos that much but have the base statline memorized)
* They come in every starter box
* They are THE iconic poster child for Games Workshop's 40K line

What would doing an Tau/Ork starter do? Or an Eldar/Dark Eldar starter?

I think the "vanilla" armies should Codexes while the variant groups/cults/chapters/legions/lists could get "books" through WD or purchasable as online PDFs. Fewer actual books to revise, PDFs could be kept to a reasonable, printable length, and so you'd have your codex and maybe 5 printed pages that would represent your army.

The DA codex has always seemed like a mess to me. It's like they are trying to do EVERYTHING! I mean, How exactly are Deathwing and RavenWing even in the same ballpark?

At least the BA have a consistent theme. FAST and assaulty. What the hell are the DA trying to do? Who knows. They don't even know.

How about no 'new' codexs and just get the darn TAU redone! As some of the ideas for 'new' codices are very nice and tempting, let's just try to update what is already there! Necrons, Tau need it bad. Chaos needs "Legions".

No more Marine Chapters please. No new Codices anyway. I'm all for the current ones being redone like all the others, it would be doing a disservice to the people who play those armies if they were combined into one book.

It either means they have to buy a giant Codex that costs five times as much and includes a whole lot of useless information, or they'd buy a smaller one that cuts out the majority of the army's content. So, keep the current ones.

For the other Legions, Salamander's, Raven Guard etc. simply create Legion rules along the lines of JustDave's Chaos fandex (again, good job JustDave, you've probably solved the problem of having too many Marine Codices). Salamanders Legion rule unlocks special character Vulkan He'stan, allows all the rules He'stan gives regular armies without the need to take him, a couple of wargear options, and one or two new units, like dedicated flamer/melta units or an advanced Dreadnought suit.

It's as simple as that. Codex marines do not choose a Legion rule, but because of this, Legion Rules also handicap an army in one or another.

The Chaos Legions Codex follows the same principle, and is accompanied by another Chaos Codex, Chaos Renegades. This includes options for the Lost and the Dammed and Renegade Marines, but it does not have access to most units in the Legion codex.

Add in an Inquisition Codex, which includes Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and all the Inquisition stuff ripped from the Grey Knights codex.

Then create an Adeptus Mechanicus codex. I had an idea that would allow people to play both the Dark and Loyal Mechanicus. You have a standard list of units, Skitarii, Robots, warmachines, etc.
Out with this you have two rules that you pick, Dark Mechanicus, or Adeptus Mechanicus. The former allows Daemon Engines and Daemonic Gifts in addition to standard units and wargear, whilst the latter allows access to some really old and advanced wargear and units.

Seaward wrote:

Chicken or the egg, which came first?

There was a time when everything was brand new, prior to Necrons, Tyranids, Tau...and people still went for Space Marines. The majority of GW's fan base likes Space Marines. Thus, the majority of what GW produces is Space Marines.

Games Workshop is in the business of selling overpriced plastic toy mens. If they thought they could increase profits by dumping everybody but Space Marines, they would do so. If they thought they could increase profits by writing thirteen Eldar codices, they would do so. They're driven by the market.

This is assuming GW is a competent business responding to market forces. Remember that many things, especially back in RT/2E that were pet projects that continued out of momentum, usually because there was something broken about them (Space Wolves in 2E for instance). Also, this is the same business that operated in violation of UK law with the same person as CEO and Chairman of the board, *borrowing* money to pay dividends (which usually are only done when there is excess cash to distribute) enabling him to double his yearly income.

Trusting GW to be competent in this regard is rather difficult.

Honestly, the loss of Lost and the Damned was what pushed me over the edge, in terms of leaving 40k. It was the most entertaining and characterful 40k force I'd ever played, and now it's dead.

I miss the days of the mini-dexes: Codex Armageddon and Codex Eye of Terror were some of the best variant armies GW ever produced.

Seriously, they took a Vanilla army, gave it 2-6 pages of changes (mostly a couple pieces of wargear, a couple new units, and a list of what you couldn't field), and they had done plenty to make a new army.

Why invest the time in making a 100 page book (codes: BT or whatever) when a 10 page book of alterations is all you need?

EDIT: 4th(?) edition Codex Guard's doctrines really weren't perfect, but they were enough to make it so Steel Legion and Catachans didn't play exactly the same. I'd be fine with any small scale changes that allowed my old Ulthwe Strike force to hit the field (a half page of limitations and one new piece of wargear); my old Lost and the Damned to be legal (2-3 units and a new list of which CSM/Guard units were legal); etc.etc. Not even mini-codexes, just a handful of alterations.

what about the black templars? they need a new dex, they are still somewhat competitive but get stomped by every other marine chapter besides dark angles. I would like to see a deathwatch and legion of the damned dex also but who knows.

tedurur wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Put me down for the 'we have far too many space marine codexes already' camp.

Space Marines, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels. And Grey Knights and Chaos Space marines have become way too similar to 'normal' type marines.

Frankly I agree that Dark Angels do not require their own codex, all that is needed is a master of the ravenwing, master of the deathwing and maybe Chapter master character, in the normal codex. These HQ choices could alter the force organisation chart and have some mutable equipment options. Add in a few pages of background about the layout, aims, objectives, characteristics of the chapter and you're done. It'll never happen though.

Jeesh, Grey Knights should not be a fully fledged army. SW and BA I will give a pass to because they've been around forever (BA could have been done as a few options to regular marine armies at one point) BT probably should never have had an independent release, but they're just so cool.

So you think that the BA codex should be scraped as well? Just make a captain with jump pack count ASM as troops, done (more or less). SW, pretty much same thing. Give them a character that trades combat tactics for FC and CA, done (more or less)...ect ect
DA is most certainly just as unique as the other marine chapters with their own codex.

Yes, that's exactly what I think (I've bolded the bit where I note that).

I know it will absolutely not happen, it's not good for business to 'scrap' armies once they've got their own codex. But really I find every player's need to have a codex solely for their favoured faction quixotic. Look at this thread - as soon as the topic comes up everyone starts to say how X specific marine chapter or IG regiment really really needs its own book. Why the need to have a seperate publication for every little thing. Once GW used to produce things like the craftworld eldar army lists or the special rules for chaos legions/index astartes, special variant army lists popping up right and left. They stopped because it was a nightmare to keep track of and led to loads of dead-end concepts.
I completely agree with this decision. There should be a limited number of codexes. Each should have a comprehensive selection of units, plenty of special characters, loads of different possibilities for building armies. But what we absolutely do not need is a seperate publication for each sub-sub-sub-force. That way lies madness. It mucks up the release schedule, it creates stupid contradictions in the rules (like the massive changes in options and even equipment rules between 4th and 5th edition marine codexes) and is part of why we have so much material detailing the different fashion choices of space marines but only 20 page leaflets for potentially-interesting armies like necrons.

Realistic answer: yes, I think that 5+ marine codexes is one of the overlapping problems with WH40k, its linked with the stupid way of releasing new books in sequence. But it is not going to change, DA and BA will remain seperate armies with loads of illogical minor differences, and we will not see Codex White Scars, Codex Savlar Chem Dogs, or anyone else's favourite unique-snowflake codex.

Sorry if I sound worked up. But seriously, do people really think that having seperate armies for dozens on dozens of organisations would be an improvement? It would be a nightmare!

P.S. there's a post just up the page wishing for a codex with some nice '3rd reich background'. At least we can all agree in hoping that guy doesn't get his wish!

Most of the variants, I think, could be summed up with very simple changes, for instance (not saying these would be balanced):

Imperial Guard:
-all infantry has +1 cover saves and +1 BS but costs 2 more points, and a maximum of 2 non-walker vehicles=Catachans, First and Only, etc.

Space Marines:
-Plasma weapons cost 2 points less, terminators or bikers can be taken as troop choices with a commander with the respective upgrade (terminator armor/ bike), stubborn instead of They Shall Know No Fear = Dark Angels
-All tactical squads may replace bolters with CCWs for free, scouts may be added to tactical squads; no librarians or scout squads= Black Templars

Chaos Space Marines:
Can only take one cult, all cult units of the appropriate number get one point off per model

… Stuff like that would cover 90% of the variant lists, especially with 1-2 special characters. It'd add 10-40 pages to each book, but consolidate them all in to one.

There would still be tricky ones, like Lost and the Damned, but there'll always be exceptions.

1- Tyranids (done right)
2- Tau
3- Hrud (Because we need a Skaven analogue. The balance must be maintained)
4- Inquisition (basically combines SoB, GK and Deathwatch)
5 - Necrons
6 - Arbites
7- Traitor Guard
8 - Demons (done right)
9 - Craftworld Eldar
10 - Exodite Eldar (Because we need a Wood Elf analogue. The balance must be maintained)

CthuluIsSpy wrote:1- Tyranids (done right)
2- Tau
3- Hrud (Because we need a Skaven analogue. The balance must be maintained)
4- Inquisition (basically combines SoB, GK and Deathwatch)
5 - Necrons
6 - Arbites
7- Traitor Guard
8 - Demons (done right)
9 - Craftworld Eldar
10 - Exodite Eldar (Because we need a Wood Elf analogue. The balance must be maintained)

What the hell's a Hrud?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:1- Tyranids (done right)
2- Tau
3- Hrud (Because we need a Skaven analogue. The balance must be maintained)
4- Inquisition (basically combines SoB, GK and Deathwatch)
5 - Necrons
6 - Arbites
7- Traitor Guard
8 - Demons (done right)
9 - Craftworld Eldar
10 - Exodite Eldar (Because we need a Wood Elf analogue. The balance must be maintained)

What the hell's a Hrud?

Another thing that comes up alot in 40K fluff, but isn't actually shown. (well, they used to anyway)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hrud#.Tot29rK9uuI

Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

Yep. In fact, the old models for it looked like rat people. There is a picture of one in this link.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrud

CpatTom wrote:Tau, haha, who am I kidding. Seriously though. I want Tau.

More Marines? Ah, yeah, probably more marines.

In the grim darkness of the future there exists small groups of highly trained super soldiers. They fight with the might and ferocity of 500 men, watched in awe by regular men like angels carving death across a battle field. They are the elite fighting force of the Imperium, they are Space Marines, and they are everywhere.

That made me laugh. But its the damn truth. Sheesh! Ive had more then a couple new players ask me "If there are so few SM out there....then why do they have more codices then any other army?" and I really cant answer that other then "Because they sell well?"

KingCracker wrote:
Ive had more then a couple new players ask me "If there are so few SM out there....then why do they have more codices then any other army?" and I really cant answer that other then "Because they sell well?"

Sure you can make answers that aren't the typical smartalecky remarks of "They sell well".

Codices are there to represent 'divergent forces'. Black Templars are different in organizational structure and the types of units they field from the "Codex Marines" who are different from the Dark Angels who are different from the Space Wolves(...well, at least they were before Kelly wrote C: SW) who are different from the Blood Angels.

Yeah, Kan, c'mon - they make more Marine Codices because they make money. There's no need to be intentionally ignorant of the realities of sales figures.

If the 'divergence' argument held any water well... we'd see more Guard and Chaos Codices than Marine ones.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

Yep. In fact, the old models for it looked like rat people. There is a picture of one in this link.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrud

Isn't that just a converted Skaven? I'm pretty damned sure there have never been official Hrud models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: yes, those are definitely old Skaven models with Rogue Trader-era plastic weapons.

If they're gonna pump out some more "divergent" codices, I'd rather see some guard. I mean, it seems stupid that they take existing stuff and say "Slap on a different paint job and you have yourself a new codex!" But then they have tons of pretty sweet models already being pumped out for guard, and the regiments don't even have their own units in the codex - let alone their own codex entirely.

The thing is, they can't really publish divergent ones for other races because most other races are usually almost totally unified on school of thought and such. I can't think of a Tau or Eldar force that's noteworthy enough to get their own codex.

Am I the only one who senses the OP's inherent racism, as a European-American, I hate to look at a thread and see various Marine chapters being praised solely for not being white. If I went out of my way to join in and state that my only requirement for a new codex was that they be based on European culture I would be almost universally seen as loony, I hope the OP recognizes this.

rickross wrote:Am I the only one who senses the OP's inherent racism, as a European-American, I hate to look at a thread and see various Marine chapters being praised solely for not being white. If I went out of my way to join in and state that my only requirement for a new codex was that they be based on European culture I would be almost universally seen as loony, I hope the OP recognizes this.

He means black as in the color of their power armor, not skin color. Look at what he said for Salamanders. Now who's the racist, racist.

He stated White Scars are interesting primarily because of their Non-European culture.

rickross wrote:He stated White Scars are interesting primarily because of their Non-European culture.

1) No, that was one of multiple reasons
2) That's not racist in the slightest. That's like saying being interested in the Eldar for their Celtic-references, or being interested in the Tau for the greater anime fan, is racist. Is GW racist for making armies that aren't purely Anglo-Saxon in nature? God no, and it's not racist to like a little diversity. In fact, it's pretty arguable that that's in fact the opposite.

I think the OP wasn't trying to be racist by wanting a non-European culture, but rather was more interested simply in diversity of style. We've got two Space Marine armies based on knights and three Space Marine (Since SoB are MEQ) armies with lots of angelic and Catholic imagery. It just gets a bit repetitive.

Lordraymond wrote:The thing is, they can't really publish divergent ones for other races because most other races are usually almost totally unified on school of thought and such. I can't think of a Tau or Eldar force that's noteworthy enough to get their own codex.

*Cough* Kroot *Cough*

Kylis wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:9 - White Scars: Cooler bikes than the Raven Wing, bold color scheme, non-European background AND they would fill a niche of fast cavalry marines which the other chapters really don't do.

What's wrong with European background? Is it because of western civization is formed in there or what?

Because we have the European Knight Marines, the European Monk Marines, the OTHER European Knight Marines, the European Viking Marines, the European Vampire Knight Marines and the European Roman Marines. Since I spend most of my time outside the US and Europe it irks me how limited GW's horizon is.

An Asian Indian themed chapter would get me excited. THe other other other European Knights would not.

Codex: Death Korps of Krieg would be really nice to see with 3rd Reich background.

Yeah.

Cause ain't nothing cooler than Nazis.

Hey Kid, have you heard of the Emperor's Shadows?
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Shadows

SM Ninjas, basically.

rickross wrote:Am I the only one who senses the OP's inherent racism, as a European-American, I hate to look at a thread and see various Marine chapters being praised solely for not being white. If I went out of my way to join in and state that my only requirement for a new codex was that they be based on European culture I would be almost universally seen as loony, I hope the OP recognizes this.

I mentioned this earlier but let me follow up. I spend a lot of time in Asia and the Caribbean so I tend to be very aware of the 90% of the human race that's not white. So I always get irked at visions of the future that do not show some of that diversity.

I've only been to the UK twice but from what I see it's far from being all white. But you wouldn't know it from GW's paint jobs or artwork.

So yeah, I wish they'd do more.

I would really like to see some of the xenos races get updates, especially Tau and Tyranids. The more up to date the codexes, the more squishy aliens for our marines to shoot at. Look, I love my Deathwatch marines, just look at my avatar. But I don't think they deserve their own codex before any of the 3rd and 4th edition codexes get updated.

I think the solution is to use WD updates to add characters that can give SMs special abilities or update their codexes. Maybe a standard faq could be released that brought all the abilities and costs of marine gear in line with each other.

For the sake of bolter lovers everywhere, please give us some fresh aliens to shoot.

And y'know there've been 3 non-white chapters that I'm aware of.

Dark Angels (native Americans) - retconned into white monks.
Salamanders (Africans) - retconned into inhuman mutants
And White Scars.

So yeah Marines could do with a bit more color.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:And y'know there've been 3 non-white chapters that I'm aware of.

Dark Angels (native Americans) - retconned into white monks.
Salamanders (Africans) - retconned into inhuman mutants
And White Scars.

So yeah Marines could do with a bit more color.

Paint the marines whatever color you want and print the codexes in gray scale.

EDIT: This came off a lot harsher than I meant it to. I know I've painted my models different races.

Why does colour matter at all? Marines could be blue under those helmets and it wouldn't make any difference.

Honestly, why should the colour of their skin matter in a game where the so-called 'good guys' consider genocide the appropriate responce to anything that isn't them.

Like it or not, GW is a British company, the vast majority of players are also of European descent, therefore the majority of armies appear to be of European descent. It's simple marketing, I gather you are East Asian, or of East Asian descent. If GW had a strong East Asian playerbase than there would be more chapters reflecting the Asian players. I live in Houston, Texas, an area where the majority of the human race is not white, (probably around 40 percent). The vast, the VAST majority of players at the flgs are white, I've only seen one non white person at the store, and he was hispanic, no he didn't want a Latino chapter, even though they are the majority of the population. Bottom line, GW is based on Anglo-Celtic Civilization, same as the countries it is most popular in (America, UK, Oz, NZ, Canada). Your argument for marinaversity is flawed from the start, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play the game Shogun: Total War(a great game) with the contemporary Holy Roman Empire landing, simply because the Japanese culture was getting old.

rickross wrote:Like it or not, GW is a British company, the vast majority of players are also of European descent, therefore the majority of armies appear to be of European descent. It's simple marketing, I gather you are East Asian, or of East Asian descent. If GW had a strong East Asian playerbase than there would be more chapters reflecting the Asian players. I live in Houston, Texas, an area where the majority of the human race is not white, (probably around 40 percent). The vast, the VAST majority of players at the flgs are white, I've only seen one non white person at the store, and he was hispanic, no he didn't want a Latino chapter, even though they are the majority of the population. Bottom line, GW is based on Anglo-Celtic Civilization, same as the countries it is most popular in (America, UK, Oz, NZ, Canada). Your argument for marinaversity is flawed from the start, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play the game Shogun: Total War(a great game) with the contemporary Holy Roman Empire landing, simply because the Japanese culture was getting old.

That argument makes zero sense. For one, I'm a white guy. Secondly, there are more races on Earth than just white guys, which is something that should be reflected in 40k, since it deals with the whole god damn milky way. Just because GW is based in England doesn't mean only white people should be in (or play, as you seem to infer) 40k. Shogun: Total War is a game based ONLY on Japan, so of course it will have japanese people. But, since 40k is based on the whole world + galaxy, it'd be racist NOT to include any sort of other races. Just because you can't relate to other people of different races doesn't mean other people can't. Now please, gtfo, racist.

1: Nids
2: Crons
3: Orks
4: some sort of actual traitor guard codex
5: Squats ( hey, an ork can dream right?)
6: Grot rebellion
7: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines
8: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines
9: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines
10: Anything else that has nothing to do with marines

Kilroy, stop being so confrontational, I think you would have an EXTREMELY difficult time arguing that the MAJORITY, not an absolute! isn't white. I NEVER said 40k marine chapters should only represent Europe, I said that a chapter being based on a non-european culture shouldn't be their primary qualification to be interesting. I deserve you're respect, as I had previously given you mine freely. My arguments are valid.

rickross wrote:Like it or not, GW is a British company, the vast majority of players are also of European descent, therefore the majority of armies appear to be of European descent. It's simple marketing, I gather you are East Asian, or of East Asian descent. If GW had a strong East Asian playerbase than there would be more chapters reflecting the Asian players. I live in Houston, Texas, an area where the majority of the human race is not white, (probably around 40 percent). The vast, the VAST majority of players at the flgs are white, I've only seen one non white person at the store, and he was hispanic, no he didn't want a Latino chapter, even though they are the majority of the population. Bottom line, GW is based on Anglo-Celtic Civilization, same as the countries it is most popular in (America, UK, Oz, NZ, Canada). Your argument for marinaversity is flawed from the start, I sure as hell wouldn't want to play the game Shogun: Total War(a great game) with the contemporary Holy Roman Empire landing, simply because the Japanese culture was getting old.

Really? Wow, that's totally different from my experiences.

I live up in Denver, Colorado, which is 70% white, and we've still got quite a few black and hispanic players (In fact, most of the younger regulars are non-white).

I'm guessing the majority of wargamers are white, but I doubt that's the reason Games Workshop makes most of their minis European-based. Blizzard still has the majority of the Terrans in Starcraft 2 based on Southerners from the United States, even though South Korea provides an insane amount of Starcraft players.

Also, keep in mind that most of the factions are based on European groups, including most of the Imperial Guard factions (The only exceptions are Catachans, Rough Riders, and maybe Tallarn), so it's not just ethnic, it's also regional preference. I'd say it's just because GW was most familiar with that sort of culture when it started out; their attempt at USA Vietnamese troops was almost completely based on movies instead of real life.

GW is primarily interested in profit, and white scars based on Mongolian culture have been around for a long, long time. Yet they have never been as popular as the Greco-Roman Ultramarines, or the Norse Space Wolves. Ultra's or Wolves just interested people more. To many GW customers, these periods represent their pasts, or culture they grew up well informed about (try the iconic "viking helmet") This generation has more exposure to the Orient through cartoons, samurai etc (I would really like a Japan-inspired chapter) but the Imperium is based on a gothic-EUROPEAN catholic suppresion type culture. Worlds are brought to the Imperial banner under the understanding they will adhere to the Imperium's cultural norms. Promoting armies of different races, simply because we need more "color" is just as hateful as stating that no one wants color in 40k, just look at, this kind of thing doesn't mesh with the customers or the fluff. If you want Asiatic-inspired go Tau, if you want nuns with guns, go sisters, if you want archetypal Roman Stoics, go Ultra's. There's options for everyone, take them or leave them, modeling is up to you, if you want a variety of skin colors, it's a GALAXY! Paint your warriors in all manners of skin color/ national icons etc. Its up to you!

rickross wrote:Kilroy, stop being so confrontational, I think you would have an EXTREMELY difficult time arguing that the MAJORITY, not an absolute! isn't white.

No, I'm arguing that it doesn't matter WHAT color the people making the game or gamers are. Just because the majority is doesn't mean that it will sell any better if they're the same color. That's just pure racism, plain and simple. As this thread should have probably taught you by now, some people actually enjoy diversity

rickross wrote:I NEVER said 40k marine chapters should only represent Europe, I said that a chapter being based on a non-european culture shouldn't be their primary qualification to be interesting.

And again, as I pointed out before, not only WASN'T it the primary qualification for the OP, just one of many, but this argument you have constantly repeated about it being unethical to like an army based off of a different race than the mainstream is completely nonsensical and EXTREMELY racist. How can you sit there and say "You shouldn't like an army if it isn't white"? That's absolutely ludicrous.

rickross wrote: I deserve you're respect, as I had previously given you mine freely. My arguments are valid.

Flawed racism is never a valid argument. That being said, I do feel sorry for your soul, and hope that you can work past those issues.

rickross wrote:GW is primarily interested in profit, and white scars based on Mongolian culture have been around for a long, long time. Yet they have never been as popular as the Greco-Roman Ultramarines, or the Norse Space Wolves. Ultra's or Wolves just interested people more. To many GW customers, these periods represent their pasts, or culture they grew up well informed about (try the iconic "viking helmet") This generation has more exposure to the Orient through cartoons, samurai etc (I would really like a Japan-inspired chapter) but the Imperium is based on a gothic-EUROPEAN catholic suppresion type culture. Worlds are brought to the Imperial banner under the understanding they will adhere to the Imperium's cultural norms. Promoting armies of different races, simply because we need more "color" is just as hateful as stating that no one wants color in 40k, just look at, this kind of thing doesn't mesh with the customers or the fluff. If you want Asiatic-inspired go Tau, if you want nuns with guns, go sisters, if you want archetypal Roman Stoics, go Ultra's. There's options for everyone, take them or leave them, modeling is up to you, if you want a variety of skin colors, it's a GALAXY! Paint your warriors in all manners of skin color/ national icons etc. Its up to you!

If they're going to make a Japanese-based anything, I'd like an Imperial Guard regiment based on either side of the Pacific in World War 2; there's a lot of potential for a Guard regiment with more connection to the navy there. I'm actually surprised GW hasn't made one yet.

But a samurai chapter could work. I'd like to see them play up the fuedal aspect, since only Ultramar has that in the fluff, and Ultramar isn't the sort of GRIMDARK place you think of when you hear "feudal lords ruling over peasants."

I'd honestly love a marine chapter based on one of the many, many, MANY Sub-Saharan tribes. They have a really distinctive visual style that would be a diversion from the norm.

Agreed, I'd love to see non-white regiments/chapters. All I'm saying is that they shouldn't be added simply based on the fact that they AREN'T white. If an army based on European culture has a better concept as a whole/ is more fleshed out, id rather see that play out, but if they both have good concepts/ sketches, rule concepts, I'd be fine with either

We're all racist on the inside. http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2004/pr040305.cfm
Its no excuse to act like an a**hole though.

If it had to be another Marine Codex, a Samurai based codex would be pretty interesting. Although, I think plenty of stuff could use updates first.

On another reason why an Adeptus Mechanicus codex would be awesome: THINK OF THE CONVERSIONS! The amount of awesome Ork conversions I've seen on these forums is mind-boggling, and the Mechanicus have a similar "anything-goes" style when it comes to some of their personal and devices.

English Assassin wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Whaaaaat. That swamp-thing is a Skaven analog?

Yep. In fact, the old models for it looked like rat people. There is a picture of one in this link.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrud

Isn't that just a converted Skaven? I'm pretty damned sure there have never been official Hrud models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: yes, those are definitely old Skaven models with Rogue Trader-era plastic weapons.

Really? Well damn.
to me.
But seriously though. Fielding Hrud would be neat. I would like to see more of the minor alien races in game honestly.

I want to see a Chaos Cultist list for feth's sake. Seriously. 99% of all rebellions in the IoM involve ordinary people. 99% of those rebellions involve Chaos. That means most of all Chaos worshippers are ordinary people. So why is Chaos represented solely by the rare super-soldiers, of which there are a limited supply? You can't wage a war for 10,000 years without taking casualties. If Chaos marines are doing all of the fighting (as they are on the tabletop) they will eventually (about 5,000 years ago) atrit themselves out of existence.

Give me Chaos cultists!

As for the discussion about race in 40K, I addressed this on an older thread; but GW isn't bleaching all the melanin out fo their armies for racist reasons; they are doing it to avoid charges of racism. The Salamanders were black guys of African appearance. GW's lawyers might have been concerned that their portrayal would offend real-life black guys of African descent. IRL I don't think it would, but lawyers get paid to be afraid of lawsuits. The DAs lost their Native American flavor for the same reason: fear of lawsuits.

Why haven't the SWs and White Scars been changed up? Well, when was the last time you met a Norse raider or Mongolian warrior? Those cultures are ancient, and dead. There are still Mongolians, yes, but they aren't currently rampaging through Europe. Neither are the Vikings. And the Romans aren't dominating Europe and feeding Christians to the lions right now. It's safe to base an army off of those cultures, because it's hard for anyone to sue you for portraying them offensively.

But there are still Native Americans around, and black guys of African descent, and they might (I said 'might') take offense at an ignorant white guy's depiction of them/their culture/ etc in his silly plastic army men game.

In my experience, nobody was actually offended by these armies, but that doesn't mean the lawyers weren't keyed-up looking for trouble. In an effort to avoid causing offence, GW made a lot of their armies bland.

squidhills wrote:I want to see a Chaos Cultist list for feth's sake. Seriously. 99% of all rebellions in the IoM involve ordinary people. 99% of those rebellions involve Chaos. That means most of all Chaos worshippers are ordinary people. So why is Chaos represented solely by the rare super-soldiers, of which there are a limited supply? You can't wage a war for 10,000 without taking casualties. If Chaos marines are doing all of the fighting (as they are on the tabletop) they will eventually (about 5,000 years ago) atrit themselves out of existence.

Because Speese Mahrines sell better.
But yeah, they do need a real cultist army.
If you want, the IA siege of Vraks series have rules for fielding renegades, who are basically traitor guard.

How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

Yeah, it could be like the old Daemonhunters codex. You know, like you can have a choice of traitor stormtroopers and CSM terminators.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

Yeah, it could be like the old Daemonhunters codex. You know, like you can have a choice of traitor stormtroopers and CSM terminators.

And bringing back Beastmen. Diseased Goatpeople and Minotaurs would make my day.

I have no idea why LatD don't have a codex.Traitor Guardsmen/PDF are probably the second most common enemy the Imperium faces after Orks.
Also, I think the standard Guard codex should provide supplemental rules for Stealthy (Catachan, Tanith), Mechanised (Armageddon), Drop Troop (Elysian, Harakoni), Human Wave (Death Korps, Valhallan) and Elite (Cadian) Imperial Guard regiments.

5. Hrud
4. Kroot
3. Arbites
2. Mechanicus
1. LatD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:How awesome would a combined CSM/CIG codex be?

That would be like a combined SM/IG Codex. Fluff wise it would make a lot more sense but game wise and sales wise it wouldn't.

1. Necrons, Tau and The Inquisistion (SoB + Henchmen and allies/inducted troops), because the players who have thoose armies deserve it (Oh dear Emperor, please no more loyalist marines!).
2. Chaos Legions - because the current codex is a mess and not very fluffy either. They really deserve a proper codex.
3. Catachans/deathworlders/underhive millitia - for a very unique playing style, very different from IG and generally all other armies. It wouldn't require that many new models either.
4. Chaos traitors/renegades. I know FW did this, but I think the Renegades from all over the Imperium are so important in the story of the Imperium that they should really have their own codex and a GW miniature line that supports it.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

And bringing back Beastmen. Diseased Goatpeople and Minotaurs would make my day.

Fething YES. Gimmie gimmie my beastmen! The things I used to do with them in 2nd Edition....

squidhills wrote:

As for the discussion about race in 40K, I addressed this on an older thread; but GW isn't bleaching all the melanin out fo their armies for racist reasons; they are doing it to avoid charges of racism. The Salamanders were black guys of African appearance. GW's lawyers might have been concerned that their portrayal would offend real-life black guys of African descent. IRL I don't think it would, but lawyers get paid to be afraid of lawsuits. The DAs lost their Native American flavor for the same reason: fear of lawsuits.

I really doubt that. Unless UK law is really different from US no one can be sued because of how a race, religion or ethnic group is portrayed. Only living individuals can sue for liable or slander, not groups.

Anyway, my last word on race, I think we're all in agreement. GW can/should look beyond Europe for inspiration. Not to fulfill an imaginary quota, but because there is cool and interesting stuff out there.

Then agian I look at their take on the Aztecs in the Lizard men (Tik Tak Toe? Grimloq? Lord Kroak? Really guys? Really? THat's the best you can do?) or the Tau (who seem to be modeled on anime, as understood by a blind man who once had anime described to him) and I think, maybe GW just aren't the guys to do it.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Then agian I look at their take on the Aztecs in the Lizard men (Tik Tak Toe? Grimloq? Lord Kroak? Really guys? Really? THat's the best you can do?) or the Tau (who seem to be modeled on anime, as understood by a blind man who once had anime described to him) and I think, maybe GW just aren't the guys to do it.

Catachans are funnier, since at least the Tau and Lizardmen are treated seriously.

Apparently, their only source of lore for the US troops in Vietnam was Predator. The actual Vietnamese troops would have been a great idea for troops from a Death World (Skinny, paranoid of everything around them); instead we get Jesse Ventura and Ahnold. Not that I'm complaining.

Codex: Death Korp of Kreig
GW, You listenin'?

Molten Butter wrote:
Apparently, their only source of lore for the US troops in Vietnam was Predator. The actual Vietnamese troops would have been a great idea for troops from a Death World (Skinny, paranoid of everything around them); instead we get Jesse Ventura and Ahnold. Not that I'm complaining.

The really funny thing is if they wanted an army that was one with the night, that ruled the jungle, that melted away like shadows, that had a fantaical devotion to their cause, they should have gone with the Viet Cong.

Now that would be a bold move...

forruner_mercy wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Imperial Fists? Really? The very image of a codex Marine chapter? God no. I love my Crimson Fists and I wouldn't want them or anyone else to have a new Marine codex. As the owner of entirely too many Marine armies, we don't need any more loyalist Marine books. Now a Chaos Legions one, that I'm all for. Aside from them and something like LatD/Genestealer cults/Adeptus Arbites I don't want any new armies in the game. GW takes long enough to update existing ones.

What about a joint Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Codex? GW already sells things that can apply to both.

Pages and pages late, but still no. There's literally nothing to justify them having their own codex. I'm saying this as someone who literally just primed his 6th tactical squad to go into his Crimson Fists battle company. What would the Crimson Fists have to justify their own codex? More veterans? Pedro already makes them scoring. What about Imperial Fists? There's nothing stopping you from taking 3 vindicators or devastator squads. They're both codex chapters, and the Imperial Fists are listed as being closer to codex than everyone but the Ultramarines.

Deathwatch don't need a codex. There's once again no reason for it. Just take sternguard veterans, they have almost the exact same rules as Deathwatch used to have. Sheesh.

Molten Butter wrote:Where's "Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus"? quote]

Omg yes this would be sooo awesome!