Doc Grotsnik and a Wierdboy are in the same unit. The Wierdboy rolls a 5 on his psychic chart, ''Ere we go!" and teleports the unit using the depstrike rules . . . where? Do I decide where to Deep Strike the unit? Or does the Good Doctor's Special Rule, "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack", take over and put the Deep Striking unit 1" away from the closest enemy unit? If so, is he the first model placed? If not, can I set the Strike further away from the enemy unit and just place him closest to that unit? Any ideas where to start with this one?

Can you even have them both in the same unit?

I thought it was 1 IC per squad?

There are no limits on number of IC's attached to a squad.

I would say deepstriking is different than "normal movement", so you would deepstrike whereever you want. But then, in the next movement phase "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack" kicks in...

The closest you will get to a ruling on this is the vehicle clarification from the Ork FAQ:

Ork FAQ wrote:
Q. Can Grotsnik board a vehicle if doing so will get him
closer to the nearest enemy than if he moved
normally? (p59)
A. In the spirit of the rule, if embarking in a vehicle will
not prevent him from charging that turn and will also
get him closer to the nearest enemy than moving
normally that turn, he may do that. Once aboard, the
vehicle must always move in such a way as to move as
fast as possible towards the closest enemy and allow
Grotsnik to disembark and charge the closest enemy as
soon as possible

In the same spirit, I would go with requiring the Deepstrike to be as close as possible to the enemy. Picture it as Grotsnik grabbing the Wierdboy by the throat and growling 'Take me there!!!'

Which would automatically result in a mishap?

I don't think so. "One scalpel short of a medpack" doesn't affect deep strike any more than rage does (as in Death Company deep striking).

Jidmah wrote:Which would automatically result in a mishap?

I would take 'as close as possible' to mean 'as close as possible' rather than 'on top of'... but YMMV, obviously.

Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

This is one of the few rules which has a 'spirit of the rule' which cannot be parsed.

As close as possible would mean the unit would need to deepstrike 1" away from people, and would need to be the closest unit to where mad dok is at this time, you don't get to choose a new unit on the other side of the board.

Or don't do it because weirdboyz suck and deepstriking the grot would not be all that useful and it is a rules argument.

Yes, but if we want to follow spirit of the rules, weirdboys are not supposed to be fully in control of their powers. Them deepstriking wherever you choose to place them could represent their tenuous hold of their psychic powers.

I have run a variation of this combo with a unit of 'ard boys. Generally speaking, I wanted Dok and Zogwort in the thick of things as quickly as possible. So, I wanted to deepstrike as close as possible. However, this did not mean I set myself up for failure and placd them 1" away from the nearest unit.

Think about this then:
If a weirdboy, Dok, and a squad are in CC with another unit and you roll 'ere we go, where are you supposed to place the unit? By your logic, I should barely move and hope for the best.

insaniak wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Which would automatically result in a mishap?

I would take 'as close as possible' to mean 'as close as possible' rather than 'on top of'... but YMMV, obviously.

Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed. Trying to get the complete deep strike formation as close as possible would require you to place all models before scattering, which is against the deep strike rules. So either you deepstrike wherever you want, or you mishap automatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

Jidmah wrote:Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed

Depending on the size of the squad.

Good grief, if the deepstrike has to be pointblank, then I suppose if he arrived from reserve it'd have to be from the point closest to an enemy model a well!

As it is, Medpack does not tell you anything about where you have to deploy from reserve, so there's no strong argument IMO for not allowing you to drop wherever you like.

(Hmm... Green Tide + Grotsnik + Zogwort... tempting!)

rigeld2 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed

Depending on the size of the squad.

Which would any time except when you have exactly six or less models left, including the two ICs who both miraculously survived up until now, your opponent doesn't have any other models close enough and you roll a hit or a scatter not pointing towards the enemy unit at all. Note that I made up the 1", a true "as close as possible" would force you to auto-mishap due to deep striking within 1" of an enemy unit.

No one can argue that the "spirit of the rule" is supposed to be Grotznik automatically killing himself when with a weirdboy unless the stars align.

lindsay40k wrote:(Hmm... Green Tide + Grotsnik + Zogwort... tempting!)

Yeah, I ran that quite a few times. 30 'ardy boyz up front with 2-4 more mobs of 30 boys, some Lootas, and a few kannons and zzap guns in the rear.

Of course if I did it again, I would probably do nobs with Dok and Zog so they stay fearless and keep on running.

I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

Jidmah wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

No, completely true, medpack is not worded in exactly the same manner as rage. Well most of the nuts & Bolts are, but there are a few specifics that are different.

A Rage unit can string out because it is the unit that must follow the rage rules(so only 1 model need move closer to the nearest visible enemy, and other ICs are free to join or leave).

Medpack forces the entire unit to bunch up(since "this bloodlust is conferred to any unit he joins"); and other ICs may not Leave the unit once joined.

Is deep striking even movement?

Isn't it a form of deployment?

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

No, completely true, medpack is not worded in exactly the same manner as rage. Well most of the nuts & Bolts are, but there are a few specifics that are different.

A Rage unit can string out because it is the unit that must follow the rage rules(so only 1 model need move closer to the nearest visible enemy, and other ICs are free to join or leave).

Medpack forces the entire unit to bunch up(since "this bloodlust is conferred to any unit he joins"); and other ICs may not Leave the unit once joined.

None of this has any effect on deep strike, does it? So, for the reason of deepstrike, why is one "scalpel short of a medpack" different from rage in any way? As the singular model has no choice in movement in either case, none of your points add anything to the argument. Rage also isn't in the ork codex and has a different name if you want to add more random nitpicks.

lindsay40k wrote:I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

How could you deepstrike 100 models without mishapping? But man, it would be fun to try.....

Green is Best! wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

How could you deepstrike 100 models without mishapping? But man, it would be fun to try.....

very carefully... though as its template i'd thinnk as long as the tmeplate hit or didn't scatter you'd just piel everythign in a way it fit ... though I could be wrong

to the OP I'd think you deepstrike where you want then have to try to get at the closest unit

Green is Best! wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I'm thinking of the 100+boyz mob with Warboss and Nob Apoc unit!

How could you deepstrike 100 models without mishapping? But man, it would be fun to try.....

I've seen 10" pieplates miss and not hit anything. Can't be that hard

Jidmah wrote:Even if you place the first model as close as possible (1" away from the enemy unit) it would still result in a mishap as the unit can not be placed. Trying to get the complete deep strike formation as close as possible would require you to place all models before scattering, which is against the deep strike rules. So either you deepstrike wherever you want, or you mishap automatically.

Are you deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying, or genuinely missing the point?

There is no rule that covers this situation. I suggested a 'fix' in line with the one clarification that comes close to the situation. Exactly how that is interpreted (or whether to use it at all) is completely up to the players concerned... but for myself, I would be deep striking the unit as close as possible. Yes, that would mean placing the initial model just over an inch away, and yes, that may trigger a mishap if the unit is too large and doesn't scatter. You could as easily agree to place him far enough away that the unit would fit around... you don't have to place the rest of the unit to determine that, it's generally fairly easy to eyeball how much room the unit is going to take up.

Or, you could just let him Deep Strike wherever you want. My suggestion was just that, in line with what GW have indicated the spirit of the rule to be.

The spirit of the rule is that he wouldn't embark on a vehicle if it doesn't get him closer, unlike raging units who stay put until their transport drops them and then never embark again.

Deploying via deep strike has absolutely no connection to that "spirit of the rule" at all. Otherwise Grotznik couldn't choose freely where he enters the table when arriving from reserves, but obviously nobody plays that way to meet a random interpretation of a "spirit of the rule" given in an entirely different context. Snikrot ambushing with Grotznik has become a common appearance and nobody ambushes at the position of the enemy unit closest to any table edge. And nobody deploys Grotznik as close to the enemy as possible when simply putting him on the table during deployment.

There is a simple rule that covers this situation. It does not apply, because deployment is not movement.

Couldn't have put it better, Jidmah.

Yes, when coming from reserve, I try to angle him so that he doesn't have to pass through terrain. Putting him with Snikrot is an interesting idea as well.

Pg 95, par 2, line 1, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Deep Strike: "First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice." Unless someone can find otherwise, I reckon I can Deep strike as I please. Thanks for the input!

Jidmah wrote:The spirit of the rule is that he wouldn't embark on a vehicle if it doesn't get him closer, unlike raging units who stay put until their transport drops them and then never embark again.

Deploying via deep strike has absolutely no connection to that "spirit of the rule" at all. Otherwise Grotznik couldn't choose freely where he enters the table when arriving from reserves, but obviously nobody plays that way to meet a random interpretation of a "spirit of the rule" given in an entirely different context. Snikrot ambushing with Grotznik has become a common appearance and nobody ambushes at the position of the enemy unit closest to any table edge. And nobody deploys Grotznik as close to the enemy as possible when simply putting him on the table during deployment.

There is a simple rule that covers this situation. It does not apply, because deployment is not movement.

When arriving from reserves, special rules that force a specific direction or could prevent movement are ignored in the phase it arrives. This is on pg. 94.

So Grotznik can choose where to go freely, because his special rule forces a specific direction and is ignored when he arrives from reserves. I don't have the exact wording of "'Ere we Go!" on hand, so I can't check, but if it counts as arriving from reserves then Grotznik's rule would be ignored.

Chrysis wrote:

When arriving from reserves, special rules that force a specific direction or could prevent movement are ignored in the phase it arrives. This is on pg. 94.

So Grotznik can choose where to go freely, because his special rule forces a specific direction and is ignored when he arrives from reserves. I don't have the exact wording of "'Ere we Go!" on hand, so I can't check, but if it counts as arriving from reserves then Grotznik's rule would be ignored.

So Dok + Snikrot means he can come on anywhere but once he is on he is stuck moving toward the closest enemy.

'ere we go: The weirdboy closes his eyes tight and, in a storm of green light, teleports his unit to another part of the battlefield. The weirdboy and any unit he is with must be placed anywhere on the board as per the Deep Strike rules. This power must be used even if enemy models are in base contact if so the enemy models stay in place.

No remark of being deployed from reserves so no exemption from other rules. 'in the spirit of the rule' not only do they need to deepstrike as close to an enemy unit as possible, but they probably need to deepstrike to the closest unit, not simply close to any unit. 'the spirit of the rule' means an attempt to follow the rule needs to be done, not simply parsing the RAW.

Jidmah wrote:Deploying via deep strike has absolutely no connection to that "spirit of the rule" at all.

Of course it does. His rule is that he has to move towards the closest enemy. In that spirit, it's logical to assume that anything that moves him around the table should follow that same restriction, whether it specifies that it counts as his movement or not.

Again, I'm not saying that this is an iron clad rules argument... just that it's the interpretation that in my opinion fits best with the rule as presented, and with the ruling made on transports. You're perfectly free to play it differently if you disagree.

It's really not like you are going to deep-strike a mob of FNP/5++ combat experts somewhere in your back field. You'll want to deep strike grotznik somewhere within 12" of an enemy unit anyways, simply to charge them next turn.

Also, IMO forcing an increased chance of mishaps on somebody who obviously is playing a totally unusual combination of HQs for fun has nothing to do with any spirit concerning WH40k, see the most important rule.

nkelsch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

When arriving from reserves, special rules that force a specific direction or could prevent movement are ignored in the phase it arrives. This is on pg. 94.

So Grotznik can choose where to go freely, because his special rule forces a specific direction and is ignored when he arrives from reserves. I don't have the exact wording of "'Ere we Go!" on hand, so I can't check, but if it counts as arriving from reserves then Grotznik's rule would be ignored.

So Dok + Snikrot means he can come on anywhere but once he is on he is stuck moving toward the closest enemy.

'ere we go: The weirdboy closes his eyes tight and, in a storm of green light, teleports his unit to another part of the battlefield. The weirdboy and any unit he is with must be placed anywhere on the board as per the Deep Strike rules. This power must be used even if enemy models are in base contact if so the enemy models stay in place.

No remark of being deployed from reserves so no exemption from other rules. 'in the spirit of the rule' not only do they need to deepstrike as close to an enemy unit as possible, but they probably need to deepstrike to the closest unit, not simply close to any unit. 'the spirit of the rule' means an attempt to follow the rule needs to be done, not simply parsing the RAW.

The spirit of the rule is that Grotsnik is bloodthirsty, not suicidal. TBH, any kind of attempt to fudge this into 'you've got to DS into dangerous proximity to an enemy unit' smacks of TFG. DS is deployment, not movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, so those falling into the 'DS the unit close to an enemy unit' interpretation, how close? Can I place them 13" away, assert they're as close as possible, and then roll a D6 to settle it when you disagree? If it's a set distance (not mentioned int he rule itself) they have to land, this is going to involve premeasuring (which is something that hardly ever happens in 40K with a few very clear exceptions), so does the first member of the unit get to pre-measure their 1", or do you have to somehow work out how far away to premeasure him so that the outer ring of unit members is 1" away (which due to irregular ring size will require tight fractions of inches on units more than six strong)?

Or is the fudging unworkable in practice, and DS as normal without restriction is the only solution that's going to work?

It isnt premeasuring if, in order to comply with a rule, you must measure. So, in the case of Rage you DO get to measure the distance to other units - otherwise you cannot move towards the closest enemy unit. Same for Mad Doc. If you dont measure you may not comply with the rule.

Isn't 'move' in the context it's used in the Medpack rule the same 'move' used consistently to refer to when a model uses its own legs, wheels, jets etc to propel itself a certain limited distance that takes into account intervening terrain and models? 'Ere we go does not 'move' the unit, it 'places' it.

...using the Deepstrike Rules, which is a move (ref: may not move any further, requiring DS to be a move)

lindsay40k wrote:Isn't 'move' in the context it's used in the Medpack rule the same 'move' used consistently to refer to when a model uses its own legs, wheels, jets etc to propel itself a certain limited distance that takes into account intervening terrain and models? 'Ere we go does not 'move' the unit, it 'places' it.

Just a quick FYI, DEEPSTRIKING is movement.

It is foolish to try to force the ork player to put their mob 1 inch away from an enemy unit. 'Ere we go is deep striking, a form of deployment. Movement restrictions like rage are ignored the turn that they deploy(p 94), so medpack is not applicable to the situation as it is a redeployment.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It is foolish to try to force the ork player to put their mob 1 inch away from an enemy unit. 'Ere we go is deep striking, a form of deployment. Movement restrictions like rage are ignored the turn that they deploy(p 94), so medpack is not applicable to the situation as it is a redeployment.

-cgmckenzie

Deepstriking is a form of movement, if you can take a dangerous terrain test you're moving/have moved etc

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Deepstriking is a form of movement, if you can take a dangerous terrain test you're moving/have moved etc

Not true. You can take a DT test while running, which is technically a shooting action. We can argue the semantics until we are blue in the face, but running is done in the shooting phase. It is not considered part of movement (as done in the movement phase). And to those who say "running is a form of movement," I disagree. Per the FAQ, grotsnik has to MOVE (in the movement phase) towards the closest unit, assaulting if possible. In the shooting phase, he can run or shoot. If running was considered movement, the FAQ would have stated grotsnik has to run and can never shoot. But since the FAQ gives you the option to run or shoot (therefore ignoring Medpak since you are not moving as fast as possible towards the enemy), you can infer that running is not defined as movement per the 40k definition. (Now, I would say if you do run, you have to run towards the nearest enemy, but that is for another thread.)

With 'ere we go, you are deep-striking a unit. This is a form of deployment. If it was movement, I would be allowed to assault. But I am not, so it is not movememt. Since Medpak does not apply during the shooting phase, it would stand to reason it does not apply during deployment. After all, you do not have to deploy as close as possible to the nearest enemy, do you?

If you are going to try and state that 'ere we go must move towards the closest unit, what happens when you are locked in combat? You cannot deep strike closer than that. The game breaks down.

Simply put, 'ere we go trumps Medpak for one brief moment. Put the weirdboy where you want and enforce medpack once their boots are back on the ground.

Running is performed INSTEAD of shooting, and IS movement.

Green is Best! wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Deepstriking is a form of movement, if you can take a dangerous terrain test you're moving/have moved etc

Not true. You can take a DT test while running, which is technically a shooting action. We can argue the semantics until we are blue in the face, but running is done in the shooting phase. It is not considered part of movement (as done in the movement phasenowhere does it say movement is limited to the movement phase). And to those who say "running is a form of movement," I disagree. Per the FAQ, grotsnik has to MOVE (in the movement phase) towards the closest unit, assaulting if possible. In the shooting phase, he can run or shoot. If running was considered movement, the FAQ would have stated grotsnik has to run and can never shoot. But since the FAQ gives you the option to run or shoot (therefore ignoring Medpak since you are not moving as fast as possible towards the enemy), you can infer that running is not defined as movement per the 40k definition. (Now, I would say if you do run, you have to run towards the nearest enemy, but that is for another thread.)

With 'ere we go, you are deep-striking a unit. This is a form of deployment. If it was movement, I would be allowed to assault. But I am not, so it is not movememt. Since Medpak does not apply during the shooting phase, it would stand to reason it does not apply during deployment. After all, you do not have to deploy as close as possible to the nearest enemy, do you?

If you are going to try and state that 'ere we go must move towards the closest unit, what happens when you are locked in combat? You cannot deep strike closer than that. The game breaks down.

Simply put, 'ere we go trumps Medpak for one brief moment. Put the weirdboy where you want and enforce medpack once their boots are back on the ground.

In that case I strongly advise you to read the rules for Dangerous terrain tests, and know/understand they may only be taken when units move/moved etc

PS Running is movement, it's done instead of shooting yes. However it still follows rules for movement. Similar to assault moves ... You're confusing the movement phase and movement

Okay, so how does the Deepstrike Table work, then?

Let's accept that Grotsnik, despite having enough self-control to order his Shoota Boy mates to take positions and fire on a unit 7" away, the moment a Weirdboy starts the green glowy business preceding 'Ere We Go! will jump on him and demand that both of them and their accompanying mob be tellyported into a trap which will likely kill them unless the Weirdboy cocks up his orders.

Now, what happens on the various Deepstrike results?

Terrible Accident - the Ork's opponent gets their wish and has a dangerous unit removed from play by a suspiciously partisan-looking rules interpretation.

Misplaced - well, we've established that Medpack overrides the Deep Strike deployment rules, so the Orks' opponent is now mandated to place Grotsnik and co an inch away from the nearest enemy unit, ta very much. (Or does Medpack only apply when it inconveniences the Ork player?)

Delayed - oh, well now, the unit is no longer on the table and goes into Reserve and DS's in. Does Grotsnik STILL have to attempt suicide when he comes in, now there's no 'but he's not coming in from reserve as such, he's moving/being placed on the board (the two are the same apparently) by a mechanism that usually only ever applies to reserves' to claim? If so, on what unit?

TBH, if you're being forced to place them 1" away every time you deep strike, you might as well remove the unit. Unless you've suffered a lot of casualties you will mishap every time, guaranteed.

Jidmah wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Medpack is not rage and cannot be compared to rage.

Not true. For movement those two rules are worded exactly the same, with the slight difference that Grotznik doesn't need to see his enemy.

No, completely true, medpack is not worded in exactly the same manner as rage. Well most of the nuts & Bolts are, but there are a few specifics that are different.

A Rage unit can string out because it is the unit that must follow the rage rules(so only 1 model need move closer to the nearest visible enemy, and other ICs are free to join or leave).

Medpack forces the entire unit to bunch up(since "this bloodlust is conferred to any unit he joins"); and other ICs may not Leave the unit once joined.

None of this has any effect on deep strike, does it? So, for the reason of deepstrike, why is one "scalpel short of a medpack" different from rage in any way? As the singular model has no choice in movement in either case, none of your points add anything to the argument. Rage also isn't in the ork codex and has a different name if you want to add more random nitpicks.

Please make a note of how nothing I said had any connection to Deepstrike deployment.

It was more than just a nitpick, it is something I am rather passionate about: many people seem to think that "One scalpel Short" is just rage that does not require LOS, it is much more limiting however.

As for the Deepstrike argument...

we have 2 issues to contend with.

The first is that Deepstrike specifies that the initial model may be placed anywhere n the table, while OSS specifies that any movement by grotsnik must be directly towards the nearest enemy unit, as fast as possible(And the removal of forced movement on the turn that models arrive is in the reserves rules, not the deepstrike rules)

The second is that, per the Ork FAQ, Grotsnik's movement rules are conferred onto any vehicle he is embarked onto; thus leading us to a "spirit of the Rule" issue.

unfortunately I have to resort to a non-Ork FAQ for precedent, but then it is the Only FAQ that ever deals with non-reserves deepstriking; the grey Knights FAQ on "The Summoning":

Q: If a unit being transported with The Summoning
psychic power suffers a Delayed mishap what happens?
(p25)
A: They are placed in Reserve and will arrive by Deep
Strike anywhere on the board once they turn up again.

Since this is the only ruling we have for a unit on the board, deepstriking, and then suffering a deepstrike mishap; we can assume that all such instances would be counted as "arriving via deepstrke"(also the limitations on further movement and assaulting both refer to "arriving via Deepstrike") because of the "arriving" we can assume the reserves rules are in effect, and therefore may apply the removal of compulsory movement for the "arriving from reserves".

Therefore Deepstriking through a wierdboy'z 'Ere we go would not be subject to Grotsniks OSS, as it is placed via the "Deepstrike rules", which in turn are assumptive of "Arriving from reserves", which in turn specifes that compulsory movement is removed on the turn a unit so arrives.

The game after a game in which someone tried this 'suicide lol' interpretation on me, I'd take Zagstruck with a full unit of Stormboyz, and have two Warpheads join them ASAP. Each turn got a >50% chance of your choice of a fresh Deep strike, a free Waaagh! or Warpath.

rigeld2 wrote:TBH, if you're being forced to place them 1" away every time you deep strike, you might as well remove the unit. Unless you've suffered a lot of casualties you will mishap every time, guaranteed.

Don't attach mad dok to weirdboyz?

He can deepstrike from reserves just fine because reserves has a rule to override his rule. "'ere We Go" does not. So yes, Weirdboy + mad dok is basically suicide. Squigpoo happens...

Because GW decided to implement 'the spirit of the rule' due to a 4th edition rule in a 5th edition rulebook, people can validly argue 'intent' all day long because GW gave us intent with this particular character. If you don;t want to fight about it, then don't use the doc.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:In that case I strongly advise you to read the rules for Dangerous terrain tests, and know/understand they may only be taken when units move/moved etc

PS Running is movement, it's done instead of shooting yes. However it still follows rules for movement. Similar to assault moves ... You're confusing the movement phase and movement

OK. Maybe that was not the best way to convey what I was trying to say. Yes, I am well aware of tests, etc. for running. What I was trying to get across was that Grotsnik has the choice to either run or shoot. There was a long debate over this prior to the FAQ that since Grotsnik has to move "as fast as possible" he had to run every turn. This was proven false. So, since he can opt to shoot (and not run), there is already some limitation to his One Scapel rule.

Couple that with 'ere we go, and you now have a unit arriving on the field as if from deepstrike. With deepstrike, it is if you are coming in from reserves. When you come in from reserves, you are not reuquired to use One Scalpel rules from where they enter the table. It is only until after they arrive that they then must move towards the closest enemy. Would the same not apply towards deepstriking?

nkelsch wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:TBH, if you're being forced to place them 1" away every time you deep strike, you might as well remove the unit. Unless you've suffered a lot of casualties you will mishap every time, guaranteed.

Don't attach mad dok to weirdboyz?

He can deepstrike from reserves just fine because reserves has a rule to override his rule. "'ere We Go" does not. So yes, Weirdboy + mad dok is basically suicide. Squigpoo happens...

Because GW decided to implement 'the spirit of the rule' due to a 4th edition rule in a 5th edition rulebook, people can validly argue 'intent' all day long because GW gave us intent with this particular character. If you don;t want to fight about it, then don't use the doc.

I'm not defending either side - just pointing out that by saying he must deep strike at the 1" mark from an enemy unit, you're essentially removing the unit from the game.

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not defending either side - just pointing out that by saying he must deep strike at the 1" mark from an enemy unit, you're essentially removing the unit from the game.

Most of the time he's not actually going to wind up where you place him, due to scatter.

Assuming a fairly large Ork unit and target, the odds of a collision are pretty close to 50%.

Deep-striking (and teleportation) is not movement, it is deployment. In fact, it replaces movement. If deployment constituted movement, then any Ork playing fielding Grotsnik could then place Grotsnik's unit 1" away from the enemy, and not be constrained by deployment rules.

Deep-striking deployment has it's own rules - and they don't conflict with Mad Dok's rules, because one governs deployment and deepstrike re-deployment, while the other governs movement.

"may not move any further" dictates that it is, in fact, movement

Dashofpepper wrote:Deep-striking (and teleportation) is not movement, it is deployment. In fact, it replaces movement. If deployment constituted movement, then any Ork playing fielding Grotsnik could then place Grotsnik's unit 1" away from the enemy, and not be constrained by deployment rules.

Good point! I retract my position - enjoy a first turn multicharge by Ghazghkul and his mates, in a deathstar that makes Draigowing look a bit wimpy!

Dashofpepper wrote: If deployment constituted movement, then any Ork playing fielding Grotsnik could then place Grotsnik's unit 1" away from the enemy, and not be constrained by deployment rules.

Er... you have that backwards. It's the movement rules, not deployment rules, that force you to stay more than 1" from enemy models...

insaniak wrote:The closest you will get to a ruling on this is the vehicle clarification from the Ork FAQ:

Ork FAQ wrote:
Q. Can Grotsnik board a vehicle if doing so will get him
closer to the nearest enemy than if he moved
normally? (p59)
A. In the spirit of the rule, if embarking in a vehicle will
not prevent him from charging that turn and will also
get him closer to the nearest enemy than moving
normally that turn, he may do that. Once aboard, the
vehicle must always move in such a way as to move as
fast as possible towards the closest enemy and allow
Grotsnik to disembark and charge the closest enemy as
soon as possible

In the same spirit, I would go with requiring the Deepstrike to be as close as possible to the enemy. Picture it as Grotsnik grabbing the Wierdboy by the throat and growling 'Take me there!!!'

If the spirit of the rule is for Grotsnik to use the vehicle to allow him to CHARGE the closest enemy as soon as possible, how is Deep Striking 1" away from (or even on top of) an enemy unit with 7 or more models, and therefore greatly increasing his chance to mishap and NOT charge, in keeping with the spirit of the rule? I know people hate fluff on this site, but the spirit of the rule above is that he is a thinking creature who will embark on a vehicle if doing so helps him to get into close combat faster. He is not a mindless automaton like BA with Rage or Nids with instinctual behavior when separated from a synapse. I would like to think he should be Deep Striking intelligently, but that may be my own bias at work.

There is another crafty option that might be viable (READ: so crazy that it might just work!). The point has also been made that if he is coming on from reserves or ambushing with Snikrot, he does not have to enter from the point on the edge of the table closest to the closest enemy unit to that table edge. He can come on from my choosing. Why? Because there is no reference of distance to a model not on the table. I fathom that once he is removed from the table to Deep Strike via the 'Ere we go! rule, there is no longer a reference from him to ANY of the enemy models, and I can Deep Strike as I please. I am instinctively not confident that this is not an appropriate interpretation, but it would be cool.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:If the spirit of the rule is for Grotsnik to use the vehicle to allow him to CHARGE the closest enemy as soon as possible...

It's not. The spirit of the rule, as I see it, is simply that if he moves, he moves towards the enemy.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

insaniak wrote:In the same spirit, I would go with requiring the Deepstrike to be as close as possible to the enemy. Picture it as Grotsnik grabbing the Wierdboy by the throat and growling 'Take me there!!!'

If the spirit of the rule is for Grotsnik to use the vehicle to allow him to CHARGE the closest enemy as soon as possible, how is Deep Striking 1" away from (or even on top of) an enemy unit with 7 or more models, and therefore greatly increasing his chance to mishap and NOT charge, in keeping with the spirit of the rule? I know people hate fluff on this site, but the spirit of the rule above is that he is a thinking creature who will embark on a vehicle if doing so helps him to get into close combat faster. He is not a mindless automaton like BA with Rage or Nids with instinctual behavior when separated from a synapse. I would like to think he should be Deep Striking intelligently, but that may be my own bias at work.

There is another crafty option that might be viable (READ: so crazy that it might just work!). The point has also been made that if he is coming on from reserves or ambushing with Snikrot, he does not have to enter from the point on the edge of the table closest to the closest enemy unit to that table edge. He can come on from my choosing. Why? Because there is no reference of distance to a model not on the table. I fathom that once he is removed from the table to Deep Strike via the 'Ere we go! rule, there is no longer a reference from him to ANY of the enemy models, and I can Deep Strike as I please. I am instinctively not confident that this is not an appropriate interpretation, but it would be cool.

3 things:

1. If you are deepstriking from reserves, reserves has a rule that ignores other rules that conflict. Mad Dok coming in from reserves via deepstrike is not impacted by 'medpak' and may come in wherever.

2. If you mishap and are placed in reserves via DELAYED, then when you deploy next time, you are coming in from reserves where the disregarding of 'medpak' happens.

3. 'ere we go is mandatory and not optional. (unless you reroll something else) so it is forced upon the unit so the dok can't choose to not 'ere we go if it were to impact assaulting. You could not embark to avoid assault if you were going to be capable of moving and assaulting that turn to the closest unit (where embarking and moving would result in being closer but not assaulting) Because 'ere we go is forced, you have to deep strike but you must do it as close to the closest unit as possible... So say the Ghost of the GW FAQ that dictates 'the spirit of the game'

Or not... Whatever you and your opponent agree because Mad Dok is a total fight as people abuse and bend the already unclear rules for thier personal advantage. I would avoid deepstriking mad dok

nkelsch wrote:I would avoid deepstriking mad dok

That's probably the easiest option...

I would rather avoid making up arbitrary rules and simply stick to the books. Which contain none of the thing either of you suggested. After I've done that I'll field whatever units I feel like.

What I want is Deep Striking Terminators with Feel No Pain in my Ork Army. Is this too much to ask?

All kidding aside, to be able to Deep Strike the Good Doktor and a Warphead with Cybork Body Meganobs has some substantial tactical value. I am not looking for the easiest option of avoiding the discussion. I want to know if the rules allow it and how it will work.

CODEX: Orks
1. Pg 37, col 1, par 7, line 2, WEIRDBOYZ PSYCHIC POWERS: 5 'Ere We Go: "The Weirdboy and any unit he is with must be placed anywhere on the Board as per the Deep Strike rules."
RULE BOOK
2. Pg 95, col 1, par 1, line 2, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Deep Strike: "If you wish to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question must begin the game in reserve."
3. Pg 94, col 2, par 4, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Arriving from Reserve: "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserves."
4. Pg 95, col 1, par 2, line 1, MISSION SPECIAL RULES: Deep Strike: "First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, . . ."

1. The 'Ere We Go! special rule says that the Weirdboy and his unit may be placed on the board as per the Deep Strike rules.
2. In order to use Deep Strike, the Weirdboy and his unit are treated as though they are arriving from reserves.
3. Since they are treated as having arrived from reserves, special rules governing forced movement (such as One Scalpel Short of a Med Pack) are ignored.
4, 1. Two rules supporting the idea I can place the unit anywhere on the board I choose.

This is my possibly correct but highly biased interpretation of the rules. If it is refutable, please do so before I embarrass myself somewhere other than the internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I think about it, I don't think 1 treats them as Deep Striking from reserves, just that the Deep Strike rules will be used for deployment (like the moment rules are used for running and assaulting) and that Medpack will affect them. Thoughts?

EWG! does not move the models, it places them. AFAIK 'place' and 'move' are not used interchangeably.

OSS affects how Grotsnik and co move, and how a vehicle containing them moves. It doesn't mention anything about affecting how you can place Grotsnik and co.

If GW FAQ it to say 'yes, Grotsnik will attempt suicide, you get your wish non-Ork players', then so be it.

...yet DS IS movement. You cannot move any further, necessarily making it movement to begin with.

Okay then, so to follow this through to its logical conclusion, if a mishap 3-4 happens, the Orks' opponent must place Grotsnik and co an inch away from the nearest unit to their starting position (and presumably a CSM player who hits him with Lash of Submission basically gives him a 2D6" free move towards the nearest CSM unit). What happens on mishap 5-6, then? Does this DS finally follow the DS rules as normal in that situation?

No, because the rule for his movmenet only affects HIS movement, not forced movement. Lash's specific nature would override, as would the DS mishap allowing the opponent to place them anywhere.

On a 5 - 6, reserves, then yes he's in reserves, and would DS in when available.

So you would always have to move grotznik onto the table from reserve where the table edge(es) is/are closest to an enemy unit, is that what you're saying, nos?

Arriving from reserves is movement, too.

Yes you would. Otherwise you have not moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy, have you?

So there is no point at all in joining Snikrot with Grotznik - something I find hard to believe.

No, nos. That is wrong. It says in the mission special rules how units arriving from reserve ignore movement restrictions, ie rage, on the turn they arrive. As was mentioned earlier, this is a movement restriction, comparable to rage. It is ignored on the turn that he arrives from reserve.

-cgmckenzie

nosferatu1001 wrote:...yet DS IS movement. You cannot move any further, necessarily making it movement to begin with.

I'm going to get my loaded dice (that only roll 3s and 4s) so that I can deep-strike a HUGE fething squad to mishap next to what I want to assault, mishap "Misplaced" and then scream and yell that the only place that you may place them on the entire board is 1" away from the unit I was trying to deep-strike next to in the first place.

cgmckenzie wrote:No, nos. That is wrong. It says in the mission special rules how units arriving from reserve ignore movement restrictions, ie rage, on the turn they arrive. As was mentioned earlier, this is a movement restriction, comparable to rage. It is ignored on the turn that he arrives from reserve.

-cgmckenzie

The distinction is 'ere we go' is not deploying from reserves. If he comes on with Snikrot, then he comes in from reserves which means his movement restrictions are ignored. 'ere we go does not deepstrike from reserves and are not being deployed from reserves so the restriction is not ignored.

This is just two wonky poorly written 4th edition rules for unused special characters that are conflicting with 5th edition rules... Why is it so hard that the unintentional result is suicide unit? bad things happen. Maybe it becomes a tactic if you take a weirdboy and mad dok your opponent will lash mad dok within 2" of the weirdboy and say 'MUHAHAHHAHAH! now your unit will implode! hahahahah!"

Using the deep strike rules includes ignoring all movement restrictions.

nkelsh, blaming it on the 5th edition doesn't work. Placing a model is not moving it. While the entire process of deep striking somewhere is movement, figuring out where you deep strike is not, and thus not bound by any movement rules at all. Otherwise, there is no reason to allow the "'ere we go"-deep strike to be further than 6" from it's starting position.

Cgm - oops, forgot that one, my bad!

Dash - brilliant, so once youve thrown your toys back in the pram, that IS the rules argument that you should follow.

Jidmah wrote:Using the deep strike rules includes ignoring all movement restrictions.

nkelsh, blaming it on the 5th edition doesn't work. Placing a model is not moving it. While the entire process of deep striking somewhere is movement, figuring out where you deep strike is not, and thus not bound by any movement rules at all. Otherwise, there is no reason to allow the "'ere we go"-deep strike to be further than 6" from it's starting position.

You may deepstrike from reserves, not all deepstrikes are deploying from reserves.

Deepstriking is movement.

So is movement, is not deploying from reserves, no exception is given.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:2. In order to use Deep Strike, the Weirdboy and his unit are treated as though they are arriving from reserves.

This is not precisely true. Ordinarily a unit woud have to be in reserve in order to Deep Strike. That doesn't mean that a unit that is granted the ability to Deep Strike by some other means is automatically assumed to be in Reserve. None of the various immediate teleportation psychic powers in the game at present refer to the unit being placed in reserve. They are just removed from the table, and then placed using the Deep Strike rules.


Edit: Missed this on the first read through:

As I think about it, I don't think 1 treats them as Deep Striking from reserves, just that the Deep Strike rules will be used for deployment (like the moment rules are used for running and assaulting) and that Medpack will affect them. Thoughts?

That's about how I see it, yes.

Incidentally, the fact that certain character combinations turn out to be useless doesn't necessarily mean that you're interpreting the rules incorrectly, as has been suggested at least once in this thread. It can also just mean that putting those characters together isn't particularly useful... While combining characters in units is allowed by the rules, it's not the driving force behind army creation.

The rules for deep striking say that the unit must be in reserve to deep strike, so when 'ere we go is activated, the unit is pulled into the reserves for a moment(however brief). The rules for 'ere we go say to place the unit as per the deep striking rules, which ignore the medpack rule because of the requisite of being in reserve to deepstrike.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:The rules for deep striking say that the unit must be in reserve to deep strike, so when 'ere we go is activated, the unit is pulled into the reserves for a moment(however brief).

That doesn't work. A rule saying that you must 'x' in order to do 'y' does not give you permission to do 'x'... it simply limits you to only being able to 'y' after you 'x'...

So if you take the view that the unit must be in reserve to deep strike, 'Ere We Go simply doesn't work at all, since it doesn't tell you to put the unit in reserve.

Very true, only a couple units in the game have rules that explicitly allow them to go into reserve. Swooping Hawks, and Mawloc come to mind.

'Ere we go says to place them on the board, following the deep strike rule.

You must be in reserve to deep strike according to the deep strike rule.

To follow both rules, you must put them into reserve so the power goes off. If you simply place them somewhere and roll for scatter, you do not satisfy the requirements for deep striking.

'Ere we go doesn't tell you to put them into reserve, but to be able to do the rest of the rule(deepstriking) you would have to reserve them.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:To follow both rules, you must put them into reserve so the power goes off.

That's not following both rules, because neither rule says to put them in reserves.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

cgmckenzie wrote:'Ere we go doesn't tell you to put them into reserve, but to be able to do the rest of the rule(deepstriking) you would have to reserve them.

Right. So again, if you follow the interpretation that you must be in reserve in order to deep strike, they can not do so since nothing says to put them in reserve.

It says to deepstrike them and one of the parts of deep striking is being in reserve. To be able to use the deep strike rules('ere we go specifically says to follow them) you must be in reserves. Part of following the order "deep strike the unit" is putting them in reserve, otherwise you cannot follow yhe deep strike rules that you are told to follow.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It says to deepstrike them and one of the parts of deep striking is being in reserve. To be able to use the deep strike rules('ere we go specifically says to follow them) you must be in reserves.

Ordinarily, yes. However, if a special rule allows you to deep strike without you being in reserves, then you don't go into reserves.

Part of following the order "deep strike the unit" is putting them in reserve, ...

No, it's not. The Deep Strike rules do not say to put the unit in reserve, they say that they deep strike from reserve.

If I can only spend money at the mall, and someone gives me money, that doesn't give me permission to go to the mall. So either I need a rule saying I can go to the mall, or I need a rule that lets me spend money without being at the mall.

Same thing here. Ere we go doesn't say to put the unit in reserve, just to use the deep strike rules to place them. So they don't go into reserve, they just get placed using the deep strike rules.

And a part of the deep strike rules is the unit having been in reserve.

For your analogy, it would be somebody telling you to buy a sweater from store x at the mall. To purchase your lovely sweater from store x, you have to go there and give them money. All these are requirements to get the sweater from store x but I don't need to tell you to go to the mall before buying the sweater, because that is the only way you can buy the sweater from store x(they don't have a phone or website and have a weird policy regarding buying things for other people. Don't ask).

Deep striking is like buying the sweater; the rules require that a deep striking unit be in reserve to be able to deep strike, placing the first model, rolling the scatter and scattering, then placing the unit around in the ring pattern. That series of steps are the rules for deep striking(simplified).

'Ere we go says to deep strike, following the rules for deep striking. To deep strike without breaking the deep strike rules, the unit must be in reserve to DS. Since we are not given permission to ignore this step but are told to DS, the unit must go to reserves to use DS.

-cgmckenzie

nothing states youre needed to go in reserves though. If you are going into reserves what breaks the restriction to make you available to deepstrike now?

If you fall in the "the spirit of the rule" must be obeyed...

What about placing Mad Dok and his unit (actually placing the models down) and pre-measure it so that they're 1" away. That way to satisfy Mad Dok's rule... THEN, roll for scatter... ?

Would that work?

Obviously dangerously close to mishap... but if you roll a hit, it'll satisfy Dok's rule.

Thought?

cgmckenzie wrote:And a part of the deep strike rules is the unit having been in reserve.

A part which you ignore if you are told to deep strike without going into reserve.

The unit doesn't have to be in reserve to deep strike. Being in reserve is simply normally the only way that the unit has the ability to deep strike.

For your analogy, it would be somebody telling you to buy a sweater from store x at the mall. To purchase your lovely sweater from store x, you have to go there and give them money. All these are requirements to get the sweater from store x but I don't need to tell you to go to the mall before buying the sweater, because that is the only way you can buy the sweater from store x(they don't have a phone or website and have a weird policy regarding buying things for other people. Don't ask).

Deep striking is like buying the sweater;

Ordinarily, yes. However, in this case, a Wierdboy has wandered over and said 'Ere you go, I found you this sweater.'

the rules require that a deep striking unit be in reserve to be able to deep strike, placing the first model, rolling the scatter and scattering, then placing the unit around in the ring pattern. That series of steps are the rules for deep striking(simplified).

And no matter how many times we revisit those rules, giving a unit the ability to deep strike won't mean that they are in reserve, and more than giving a unit the ability to shoot twice will mean that they have a rapid fire weapon.

Being in reserve allows a unit with the ability to deep strike to perform that deep strike. The ability to deep strike does not, in itself, grant the unit the ability to be placed in reserve.

Since we are not given permission to ignore this step but are told to DS, the unit must go to reserves to use DS.

Then the unit can not dep strike, since there is no rule that says that it goes into reserves.

CGM - listen to Insaniak, he is right.

The Reserve rules does NOT require you to be in Reserve initially, nor does it put you into reserve (find a rule saying it does - it talks about DS from Reserve, but has no rule putting you there in the first place) , meaning your argument doest hold water

So how has a rule restricting movement any effect on placing models anywhere on the table?

All I see here is a bunch of made up rules and random interpretation of "spirit of the rule". Not a single actual written rule. The spirit of the rules does not have to be followed at all - you don't do that for any other rule in the entire game either. Is simply an explanation from GW given for a funky ruling, just like a lot of other questionable explanations, for example a Land Raider's ancient and holy Machine Spirit being confused and disappointed if a skimmer dodges a ram.

If you want to force RAW on the "spirit of the rule"(which is a contradiction in itself) you must deepstrike on top of the closest model to the weirdboy's unit, anything else is not as close as possible. Nothing allows you to keep a safe distance to prevent mishaps. Or you scrap the stupid idea of randomly applying fluff to rules and simply play the game called WH40k. Applying "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack" to "'ere we go!" is no less of a house rule than giving gretchin lacannons.

As per RAW you can deep strike grotznik wherever you want. Not a single post on these three pages has posted a single rule even indicating the opposite.

Because DS is movement. As has been pointed out a number of times - at some point in the process DS IS movement.

So I did the math for Deep Striking 12 1 inch based Models with the first model being placed 1 inch away from an enemy unit. To be 'successful', the roll would have to scatter at some angle and distance that would prevent the first whole and second partial circle from being within 1 inch of the enemy models. There is no stacking the second partial circle of models on the far side away from the enemy since the Medpak rule is conferred to the entire mob and ALL of the models are attempting to get into CC as fast as possible. I argue against Deep Striking on top of enemy models because to do so would cause them to mishap and not help them get into CC any faster. They are sociopaths, not psychopaths. I also left out any other random detracting factors, like impassable terrain, other units close by, and irregularly shaped enemy squads. Here are my results:

H Freq D=>H Cos Angle Used %of 360 Chance
2 1 36 1.00 0.00 0.00 0.00% 0.00%
3 2 35 0.67 48.19 96.38 26.77% 26.03%
4 3 33 0.50 60.00 23.62 6.56% 6.01%
5 4 30 0.40 66.42 12.84 3.57% 2.97%
6 5 26 0.33 70.53 8.21 2.28% 1.65%
7 6 21 0.29 73.40 5.74 1.59% 0.93%
8 5 15 0.25 75.52 4.25 1.18% 0.49%
9 4 10 0.22 77.16 3.28 0.91% 0.25%
10 3 6 0.20 78.46 2.61 0.72% 0.12%
11 2 3 0.18 79.52 2.12 0.59% 0.05%
12 1 1 0.17 80.41 1.76 0.49% 0.01%
Total 38.52%
Scatter 66.67%
Probability 25.68%

I am rather stunned that the the success rate would be as high as 25.68%. The mob would have a slightly lower chance (24.77% each) to be destroyed, placed on the table by the enemy, or into reserves. Though perhaps foolish, this isn't as 'suicidal' a move as most of us suspected. This has no bearing on the rules discussion insofar as whether the possible success rate would be low enough to negate wasting any further energies investigating it.

I suspected the odds would be around a quarter a piece, though the presence of other units and the enemy squad's footprint would skew it further into the 'suicidal' odds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because DS is movement. As has been pointed out a number of times - at some point in the process DS IS movement.

So, please provide proof for "one scalpel short of a medpack" applying to placing a model via deep strike, while all other restriction placed on movement ever in the entire ruleset of WH40k do not apply.

The BRB explicitly says that an infantry may only move 6"/run 1d6", so why can 'ere we go, GoI or summoning move an infantry model further than 6"?

The BRB explicitly says that infantry may not move through impassible terrain, so why can you use 'ere we go, GoI or summoning to cross such terrain?

The BRB explicitly says that you can't move within 1" of an enemy unit, off the table or into impassible terrain/friendly units. So how is it possible to get mishaps at all if you use 'ere we go, GoI or summoning?

The BRB explicitly says that pinned units may not move, so how is it possible to move them via 'ere we go or summoning?

The only way of answering those questions without contradicting yourself is, placing models via deep strike is not bound by any movement restrictions.

The warphead rule unmistakably forces you to place your unit anywhere on the table, using the deep strike rules. While the process is movement, the unit has no choice in moving anwhere else other than the position where the initial model scattered to. So it is not possible to move closer to the enemy unit. The inital model is not moving, it is placed - if you claim placing is bound to "one scalpel short of a medpack", deployment at the beginning of the game is, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jon: Keep in mind that all ork HQs are on larger bases.

I argue against Deep Striking on top of enemy models because to do so would cause them to mishap and not help them get into CC any faster.

A 75% chance of mishapping will not get them there any faster either. Even if you deep strike directly onto a unit, there is a slim chance of scattering out of it, for that matter.

Explicit permission
Explicit permission
Explicit permission

Need anything more? Your questions are THAT facetious

So 'ere we go! gives explicit permission to move grotznik anywhere on the board. Thank you, that was exactly my point.

You have the wrong end of the stick

DS IS movement. Ere we go does not override any movement restrictions, because the initial placement cannot be movement - it is placement, and follows none of the rules. It gives you permission to *place*, not *move*. Two different concepts.

Aat some point, as i stated - DS becomes movment. Where and when that happens is not exactly clear, however if placement and DS scatter WERE movement, that causes issues in and of itself, which have been covered a number of times.

Am I missing something? This is exactly what I have been saying for the last three posts. This is why I have continously stated that "one scalpel short of a medpack" has no effect on "'ere we go!" at all.

You made an assumption about which "side" I was on. If you read back through the posts I have simply corrected issues where people got rules wrong - like saying DS ISNT movement. It IS movement, at some point in the process.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because DS is movement. As has been pointed out a number of times - at some point in the process DS IS movement.

This post was in response to my posts no even once claiming the opposite. How am I supposed to read this as anything else than you claiming that Grotznik affects the deep striking process?

Dash has claimed the opposite, a number of times. I was pointing out that hanging any claim on DS not benig movement is doomed to failure

Jidmah wrote:So 'ere we go! gives explicit permission to move grotznik anywhere on the board. Thank you, that was exactly my point.

Regular movement gives you explicit permission to move in any direction and Mad Dok overrides that...

'ere we go forces you to move via deepstrike and gives you the option of moving anywhere on the board and does not exempt you from MAD DOK's movement restrictions. Mad Dok's rule cannot prevent the deepstrike but can force you to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit, which means you can move anywhere on the board given mad dok's rule is satisfied by being moving as fast as possible to the closest enemy. This may result in a tiny little deepstrike if you are already near the closest enemy.

GW made the spirit of the rule official... because they made a rule which cannot be satisfied in all situations by RAW. Which means anyone can argue and not technically be wrong on this because RAW doesn't function by the spirit of the rule when it comes to transports.

Does "One Scalpel Short" allow you to premeasure???? So that to ensure everyone where the closest enemy unit is?

If so, when "'ere we go" goes off with Mad Dok, wouldn't you place Mad Dok down first 1" away from the closest enemy unit (after pre-measure it)??? Then you place the weirdboy by him and the rest of the unit...? Then at that point, you roll for scatter.

Would that work?

Yes, of course it does. How can you move towards the closest unit unless you know, with certainty, what unit that is?

Are there any rules governing which model you have to place first when Deep Striking? As far as I can reckon, I can place any model and arrange the others to have Grotsnik and the Weirdboy on the outside of the formation, not necessarily on the inside. And if I was trying to get Grotsnik into CC first, he would have to be on he outside ring, anyway. But since his Medpak Rule is conferred on the unit he is with, I don't think he would have precedence in placement or movement over any of the other models except as an IC in Assaults. Thoughts?

I premeasure a lot with the blank side of my measuring tape. A piece of unmarked string at least 87 inches long would work as well.

Side note: are Meganobz supposed to have the 1.5 inch bases like Terminators? Because I have the old school 1 inch based metal ones.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, of course it does. How can you move towards the closest unit unless you know, with certainty, what unit that is?

So, you would be okay with me if I did the following:
1) I premeasure to determine the closest enemy unit prior to me DS-ing that unit.
2) Once #1 is determined, then place Mad Dok 1" away from said enemy unit
3) Then, place the wierdboy right by Mad Dok and then encircle the wierdboy with the rest of the squad (as described by DS rules)
4) I may have to shift the whole unit a bit to make sure that Mad Dok is still 1" away and the rest of the models are deployed appropirately (which sorta breaks the rule, but Mad Dok is very specific).
5) Once it's all in placed, I roll for scatter...

Right?

If so... 'tis ain't so bad and it's still very orky.

No, because 4) isnt allowed - it isnt Mad Dok but the whole unit that must get as close, meaning anyone has to be closest.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because 4) isnt allowed - it isnt Mad Dok but the whole unit that must get as close, meaning anyone has to be closest.

OH... I gotcha.

Okay... THANKS.

Jidmah wrote:All I see here is a bunch of made up rules and random interpretation of "spirit of the rule". Not a single actual written rule.

Which I pointed out right at the start.

My take on this isn't RAW. It's a personal opinion on the best way to play it, based on the FAQ ruling for the Mad Dok and transports.

Working things out with your opponent in a friendly match is great, but if I am Deep Striking 10 Meganobz with a Painboy in somebody's backfield at NOVA, I need to have some substantial arguments to back up my actions.

You do not have to place ALL of the models before you Deep Strike. You only place one, then roll for scatter. After that is resolved, then you start placing the rest of the models around the first. That means that I can even place the first model right on top of an enemy model, impassable terrain, and friendly model, but not off the board. There are no mishaps until the scatter and placement is resolved. I also contend that the first placed model does not have to be an IC or Upgrade character, nor do they take precedence over any other model in the order that they are placed.

I have also been thinking about the concept of premeasuring and staying 1 inch away. I don't think the Medpak Rule overrides the Deep Strike condition of placing the initial model where I choose. Since I shouldn't be allowed to premeasure for the Deep Strike, I have to eyeball the distance just like everybody else. The Medpak Rule does not say that the Doktor and his Mob have to move 1 inch away from the nearest enemy to assault, but that they should always move towards it at the fastest speed possible in order to charge. I can charge from 6 inches away. It is also not so overriding and unbending a rule that I have to run towards the enemy in my shooting phase (when this Deep Strike would take place), and I can embark on vehicles if they would allow me to get into CC faster. I can even choose NOT to embark, even if the option is available AND it would get me into CC faster. If I am making the determinations of how to get into CC faster and of where to place the initial model for a Deep Strike and not the Medpak rule, then placement is at my discretion.

Specifically: the Medpak Rule does not address placement for Deep Striking. Both the Deep Strike and 'Ere We Go! Rules say that I place the models on the board, and Deep Strike says that I can place it where I would like the unit to arrive.

Ghenghis Jon wrote: I can even choose NOT to embark, even if the option is available AND it would get me into CC faster.

Actually, no you wouldn't. If getting in a transport was going to get you to assault 'the fastest' then you would be forced to do it and then the transport has the Mad Dok's rule forced upon it by the spirit of the rule. And while you are not forced to RUn, if you do run you are forced to do so by the medpak rule. If movement is forced on you outside movement and assault, then the movement must make every attempt to follow the Mad Dok's rules.

If I am making the determinations of how to get into CC faster and of where to place the initial model for a Deep Strike and not the Medpak rule, then placement is at my discretion.

Actually, you never get to make the determination, you have zero control over mad dok. your opponent controls everything about Mad dok by the nature of which unit is closest to his units. You simply get to agree or disagree if your opponent's unit that is the closest and the fastest way to get to him to assault.

Specifically: the Medpak Rule does not address placement for Deep Striking. Both the Deep Strike and 'Ere We Go! Rules say that I place the models on the board, and Deep Strike says that I can place it where I would like the unit to arrive.

Deepstriking is movement, so it does effect it. 'Ere we go says 'anywhere' the same way movement says you may move in any direction. Mad Dok's rule controls the movement of both rules.

Mad Dok basically requires you to vet every movement through your opponent because he controls your model by the nature of which unit is closest to your model when he ends his turn. You have no control over Mad Dok and do not get to optionally choose his movement as there is only ever one empirical shortest distance and assault if possible. If I was your opponent, If you made an action I did not agree was the shortest path or assault if possible, I would argue. Any action that breaks the spirit of the rule by you for an advantage gives me ground to contest your action because the FAQ says 'do the best you can fitting with the spirit of the rule.'

You could attempt to ask NOVA for a event specific ruling, but it sounds like you are trying to exploit rules for an advantage which isn't seen as cool.

If the advantage is there and it is legal, should I not pursue it? And yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate to find out the limitations of this combo. I believe I should only make my Deep Strike movement towards the nearest enemy unit in order to charge it as soon as possible. But where do I place the first model before the scatter is rolled? Does it have to be between my current location and the enemy? Is it on top of the middle of the enemy squad? Can it be on the opposite side of the enemy unit as long as it is closer to them than my present location? I do not think it is as arbitrary as my enemy's opinion.

As far as vetting his every move through my opponent, I do agree somewhat. Movement phase movement, running, and assaulting: yes. I do not agree that the FAQ says that I HAVE to place him in a transport if it would get him closer, it just says that I MAY.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:If the advantage is there and it is legal, should I not pursue it? And yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate to find out the limitations of this combo. I believe I should only make my Deep Strike movement towards the nearest enemy unit in order to charge it as soon as possible. But where do I place the first model before the scatter is rolled? Does it have to be between my current location and the enemy? Is it on top of the middle of the enemy squad? Can it be on the opposite side of the enemy unit as long as it is closer to them than my present location? I do not think it is as arbitrary as my enemy's opinion.

As far as vetting his every move through my opponent, I do agree somewhat. Movement phase movement, running, and assaulting: yes. I do not agree that the FAQ says that I HAVE to place him in a transport if it would get him closer, it just says that I MAY.

The issue is there are so many "what if" situations with mad dok and so many interpretations of as fast as possible and assault if possible he becomes a cluster F.

Friendly play expect to do a lot of disagreeing and 4+ roll offs. But for a huge tactic like deep striking mad dok a 4+ could end the game if ruled against you.

For tourneys, it can be even worse especially with no clear FAQ. Ask the TO and get your tactic in writing. If he says it is cool, it is cool for that event but like the other thread showed, people who ask for a ruling pre tourney who seems to manipulate a TO ruling by presenting the question with an agenda and then springs that ruling on opponents may be seen as bad guys... Especially if you are deep striking a deaf star with MANZ on 25mm bases in your opponents backfield using a tactic based off an application of unclear function of a 4th edition special characters rules interacting with 5th edition rules.

It is enough of an argument that it should be avoided because it is not currently fAQed and can swing either way depending on the judge.

nkelsch wrote:

Ghenghis Jon wrote: I can even choose NOT to embark, even if the option is available AND it would get me into CC faster.

Actually, no you wouldn't. If getting in a transport was going to get you to assault 'the fastest' then you would be forced to do it and then the transport has the Mad Dok's rule forced upon it by the spirit of the rule. And while you are not forced to RUn, if you do run you are forced to do so by the medpak rule. If movement is forced on you outside movement and assault, then the movement must make every attempt to follow the Mad Dok's rules.

I'm fairly certain the rule won't apply while their in a vehicle eh? As the vehicle is not part of his unit and he is not *doing* moving( the vehicle is)

If I am making the determinations of how to get into CC faster and of where to place the initial model for a Deep Strike and not the Medpak rule, then placement is at my discretion.

Actually, you never get to make the determination, you have zero control over mad dok. your opponent controls everything about Mad dok by the nature of which unit is closest to his units. You simply get to agree or disagree if your opponent's unit that is the closest and the fastest way to get to him to assault.

Specifically: the Medpak Rule does not address placement for Deep Striking. Both the Deep Strike and 'Ere We Go! Rules say that I place the models on the board, and Deep Strike says that I can place it where I would like the unit to arrive.

Deepstriking is movement, so it does effect it. 'Ere we go says 'anywhere' the same way movement says you may move in any direction. Mad Dok's rule controls the movement of both rules.

Mad Dok basically requires you to vet every movement through your opponent because he controls your model by the nature of which unit is closest to your model when he ends his turn. You have no control over Mad Dok and do not get to optionally choose his movement as there is only ever one empirical shortest distance and assault if possible. If I was your opponent, If you made an action I did not agree was the shortest path or assault if possible, I would argue. Any action that breaks the spirit of the rule by you for an advantage gives me ground to contest your action because the FAQ says 'do the best you can fitting with the spirit of the rule.'

You could attempt to ask NOVA for a event specific ruling, but it sounds like you are trying to exploit rules for an advantage which isn't seen as cool.

I'm actually torn here, as DS is movement and so his rule gos willy nilly. I'd always as a TO before a tournament about something like this, possibly before on boards, Open club Gaming, ETC

JD - except hte FAQ tells you the vehicle must keep moving.

nkelsch wrote:it sounds like you are trying to exploit rules for an advantage which isn't seen as cool.

The same can be said of a non-Ork player who insists that a unit containing Grotsnik and a Weirdboy must attempt suicide at every opportunity.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:It is also not so overriding and unbending a rule that I have to run towards the enemy in my shooting phase (when this Deep Strike would take place)

Not likely to budge an entrenched opponent, but food for thought.

nkelsch wrote:

Jidmah wrote:So 'ere we go! gives explicit permission to move grotznik anywhere on the board. Thank you, that was exactly my point.

Regular movement gives you explicit permission to move in any direction and Mad Dok overrides that...

'ere we go forces you to move via deepstrike and gives you the option of moving anywhere on the board and does not exempt you from MAD DOK's movement restrictions. Mad Dok's rule cannot prevent the deepstrike but can force you to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit, which means you can move anywhere on the board given mad dok's rule is satisfied by being moving as fast as possible to the closest enemy. This may result in a tiny little deepstrike if you are already near the closest enemy.

GW made the spirit of the rule official... because they made a rule which cannot be satisfied in all situations by RAW. Which means anyone can argue and not technically be wrong on this because RAW doesn't function by the spirit of the rule when it comes to transports.

Unless you can quote even a single rule about:

- Placing a model being restricted by movement rules
- "The spirit of the rule" applying to anything other than transports

all of this is nowhere even near RAW, and thus, wrong. So please quit telling people this is the correct way to play it, because, outside of house rules, it is not.

Jidmah wrote:
Unless you can quote even a single rule about:

- Placing a model being restricted by movement rules
- "The spirit of the rule" applying to anything other than transports

all of this is nowhere even near RAW, and thus, wrong. So please quit telling people this is the correct way to play it, because, outside of house rules, it is not.

The quote in the FAQ applies to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING other than transports... Basically the spirit of the rule applies to everything which is why transports are impacted. There are so many kinds of movements they would have to write a FAQ 10 pages log to impact all the places in the game where movement can happen and how Mad Dok's rule potentially interacts with it.

Deepstrike is movement, parsing the word placement doesn't make it not movement.

If you think deepstriking your rogue trader MANZ is legal, then ask your TO. If you plan to do it, get clarification first because basically as fast as possible and assault if possible is always going to be an argument.

And besides... Mad Dok with MANZ sucks... It is quite possibly the worst deathstar ever. They are too slow and can easily be lead off target. Deepstrike means they can't assault which gives your opponent a full turn to reposition to drag your MANZ to the corner of the board to sit there and do nothing because remember... your opponent has 100% control over your unit. If he puts a skimmer one millimeter closer than the unit you wanted to wreck, your unit goes to oblivion. The correct way to use MANZ and dok is go get cybork then let the MANZ do their own thing and put doc somewhere else... like FNP kommandos.

Orks FAQ wrote:Q. Can Grotsnik board a vehicle if doing so will get him closer to the nearest enemy than if he moved normally? (p59)

A. In the spirit of the rule, if embarking in a vehicle will not prevent him from charging that turn and will also get him closer to the nearest enemy than moving normally that turn, he may do that. Once aboard, the vehicle must always move in such a way as to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy and allow Grotsnik to disembark and charge the closest enemy as soon as possible.

The FAQ on Grotsnik's movement applies to transports and transports alone. The spirit of the rule is being extended to say that you aren't allowed to use transports to leash Grotsnik when he's going to charge something you'd rather he didn't, and that Grotsnik makes drivers step on it until he's got something to duff. Without something like a 'Grotsnik must always Death or Glory! when tankshocked' rule, you can't really say the spirit of the rules justify a 'Grotsnik must force a Weirdboy to attempt mass suicide whenever possible' interpretation.

It's not as if an Ork player with a MANZstar in charge range is going to seek to deny them a charge by aiming for EWG, nor is likely to use it when it happens to tellyport them to a position well out of next turn's charge range.

It's a safe bet the next Orkdex will give MANZ a Painboy and Cybork option, and maybe even Painbosses, and Grotsnik will have generic Rage, so by then the dispute will be moot

lindsay40k wrote:The same can be said of a non-Ork player who insists that a unit containing Grotsnik and a Weirdboy must attempt suicide at every opportunity.

For what it's worth, I am an Ork player... and I don't know anyone else who is, so the only person who would be suffering from my interpretation of the rules here is me.

Now, I wasn't naming names, was I?

Seriously, though, there's plenty of scope for entrenchment and partisanism in rules disputes and I was merely intending to retort to what looked like a suggestion that Ork players are trying to pull a MANZstar o'death that's completely un-fluffy.

I personally see the slapstick humour in Grotsnik running headlong at an Ogryn gunline, Mean Machine Angel style, only to find himself momentarily blinded by green light and looking at the backs of a Conscript platoon and deciding they need "kustomisin'"

lindsay40k wrote:Now, I wasn't naming names, was I?

Seriously, though, there's plenty of scope for entrenchment and partisanism in rules disputes and I was merely intending to retort to what looked like a suggestion that Ork players are trying to pull a MANZstar o'death that's completely un-fluffy.

I personally see the slapstick humour in Grotsnik running headlong at an Ogryn gunline, Mean Machine Angel style, only to find himself momentarily blinded by green light and looking at the backs of a Conscript platoon and deciding they need "kustomisin'"

I am nothing but an ork player with tens of thousands of ork points and own almost every ork model ever produced by GW armorcast and forgeworld.

I didn't say anything about fluff and I don't really care about your slapstick humor.

I do care about people abusing 25mm meganobz for advantage.
I do care about people using the already undefinable MAD dok rule in a way not intended by the rule writers and then claiming RAW RAW RAW where there is none due to the vauge intent of the rule and the conflict in editions due to the rule.
I do care about people putting forth false tactics out there usually by people who have never even used Mad Dok and the only way Mad Dok is as effective as people claim is by cheating either by intentionally disregarding the medpack rule or applying a liberally advantagous application to it. Most battle reports I have seen where mad Dok is used, he makes illegal movements.

Mad Dok is all but unuseable when attached to Meganobz against a skilled opponent who is fully aware how Mad Dok's rules are supposed to be played. He is a devastating wrecking ball when played against someone who assumes dok has simple rage or players simply assume the ork player is playing the rules correct.

If someone showed up with the intent to deepstrike 25mm MANZ with a dok and weirdboy I would immediately be on guard knowing this opponent was going to be constantly trying to misapply or fight about Mad Dok's rules. Building an army to exploit an unFAQed, unclear rule. This is the same 'Mad dok can give Kanz cybork because nothing says they can't and the FAQ assumes vehicles cannot be cyborked but the answer never confirms it.'

If you want to do it, prepare for fights, you better be damn precice in the rest of your movement (including your opponent kiting your models away from where you want them) and get your tactic vetted before showing up at a tourney. Personally, I don't need to win that way and there are plenty of clear ways to play the ork army where you don't need to take unclear parts of the rulebase to win more games.

GW declared RAI in their effect when applying Dok's movement restrictions. "the spirit of the rule" explicitly means any attempt to argue RAW instantly is wrong for Mad Dok. If you expect GW to FAQ the Mad Dok's rules in relation to every form of movement in the entire ruleset, GW should instead just remove mad Dok from the ruleset.

I asked about the bases because those are the only ones I've ever had. If I need to update them, it would change my calculations on surviving if the first model was placed in base to base contact before scattering, or 1 inch away, or wherever. That 'wherever' is the crux of my original post, to know what I CAN do if the situation presents itself. Hey man, I just looked into using Ork combos I've never seen and wanted to know what others have found out. Most of the posts I have read here against applying a liberal interpretation of the abilities of this combo are opinions and off topic. They address informing the TO, being knowledgeable of the risks of having him attached to a unit, to not be sneaky, etc. None of these discussions has anything to do with what I want to know: if I put this Painboy with a Weirdboy, where would they Deep Strike? Anyone?

And I just thought of the Weirdboy ability to Reroll on their Chart. If the movement phase left the Doktor's unit within assault range and I roll a 5 at the beginning of the shooting phase (and therefore not being able to assault this turn), would I HAVE to make a reroll in an attempt to remain and charge?

Ghenghis Jon wrote: if I put this Painboy with a Weirdboy, where would they Deep Strike? Anyone?

That's been answered with a fairly conclusive 'The rules don't really cover it.'

You're not going to get a definitive answer on this one. You'll need to discuss it with your opponent or the TO before the game if you are intending to run this combo.

nkelsch wrote:If you expect GW to FAQ the Mad Dok's rules in relation to every form of movement in the entire ruleset, GW should instead just remove mad Dok from the ruleset.

Well no, I'd just like them to FAQ his rules in relation to the three types of movement he could quite conceivably undertake in a 1750 battle with a straight Codex army; walking, riding and EWG'ing. Walking is pretty clear from the rule itself (though to my understanding the issue of running being an option or compulsory is open), riding is clearly defined, and EWG is undefined. There's any number of obscure and unlikely things that could happen in, say, Apocalypse that this FAQ might leave open - your opponent lets you and your Ultramarine partner buddy up units, how does Gate of Infinity work? - but that doesn't make it unreasonable or far-fetched to expect that the Ork Codex be patched to at least work with itself.

Failing that, rewrite him to have generic Rage and give that rule a comprehensive FAQ'ing.

nkelsch wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:Now, I wasn't naming names, was I?

Seriously, though, there's plenty of scope for entrenchment and partisanism in rules disputes and I was merely intending to retort to what looked like a suggestion that Ork players are trying to pull a MANZstar o'death that's completely un-fluffy.

I personally see the slapstick humour in Grotsnik running headlong at an Ogryn gunline, Mean Machine Angel style, only to find himself momentarily blinded by green light and looking at the backs of a Conscript platoon and deciding they need "kustomisin'"

I am nothing but an ork player with tens of thousands of ork points and own almost every ork model ever produced by GW armorcast and forgeworld.

I didn't say anything about fluff and I don't really care about your slapstick humor.

I do care about people abusing 25mm meganobz for advantage.
I do care about people using the already undefinable MAD dok rule in a way not intended by the rule writers and then claiming RAW RAW RAW where there is none due to the vauge intent of the rule and the conflict in editions due to the rule.
I do care about people putting forth false tactics out there usually by people who have never even used Mad Dok and the only way Mad Dok is as effective as people claim is by cheating either by intentionally disregarding the medpack rule or applying a liberally advantagous application to it. Most battle reports I have seen where mad Dok is used, he makes illegal movements.

Mad Dok is all but unuseable when attached to Meganobz against a skilled opponent who is fully aware how Mad Dok's rules are supposed to be played. He is a devastating wrecking ball when played against someone who assumes dok has simple rage or players simply assume the ork player is playing the rules correct.

If someone showed up with the intent to deepstrike 25mm MANZ with a dok and weirdboy I would immediately be on guard knowing this opponent was going to be constantly trying to misapply or fight about Mad Dok's rules. Building an army to exploit an unFAQed, unclear rule. This is the same 'Mad dok can give Kanz cybork because nothing says they can't and the FAQ assumes vehicles cannot be cyborked but the answer never confirms it.'

If you want to do it, prepare for fights, you better be damn precice in the rest of your movement (including your opponent kiting your models away from where you want them) and get your tactic vetted before showing up at a tourney. Personally, I don't need to win that way and there are plenty of clear ways to play the ork army where you don't need to take unclear parts of the rulebase to win more games.

GW declared RAI in their effect when applying Dok's movement restrictions. "the spirit of the rule" explicitly means any attempt to argue RAW instantly is wrong for Mad Dok. If you expect GW to FAQ the Mad Dok's rules in relation to every form of movement in the entire ruleset, GW should instead just remove mad Dok from the ruleset.

Yes, I expect them to do exactly that. Other games who actually care about making solid rules do it, the should do it, too. In addition, "the spirit of the rule" is not given in that FAQ. It's not there. I don't know what you are seeing, but I see an explanation of how transports work for Grotznik. Anything you claim to be the spirit of the rule is just as good as anything I make up on the fly. If I actually am missing something, please quote the exact spirit of the rule.

Seriously, this is a back against the wall post. There is absolutely no indication of Mad Dok having any effect on weirdboyz at all. Nowhere. I gave you a chance to posts something of the like. You can't, because there is nothing. This has nothing at all to do with exploiting old models or other loopholes. You can't even proof that it is a loophole, you just feel that way. It's on par with other random "spirits of the rule" some people enforce in their games, like:
- Only one Warboss per army
- Only one unit of nobz per army
- Kanz are not units
- Nobz must be joined by your warboss
- Lootaz must be joined by at least one mek
- If you are playing blood axes, you may not field battle wagons
- If you are playing evil sunz, you may not field walkers, kannons or any footslogging unit.
- May not field any unit twice.

All of this is arguably the "spirit of the rule".

Mind you, you are calling all of us cheaters, just because we don't share your opinion on how it should be played. Which has nothing at all to do with RAW. If you force someone playing dok+weirdboy into automatic mishaps, you are just as much TFG than the guy bringing in his old trukks with old manz and hides them all out of sight behind new boyz.

You are also pretty wrong on "one scalpel short of a medpack" being undefinable or in need of a FAQ. There is no actual rules hole in it. Every model has to move as fast as possible towards the closest enemy. No one may leave unless dead. If you can use a transport to get close you may do so, and leave it to charge ASAP. Pretty simple to understand when compared to the KFF or Deff rolla, if you ask me.

Bottom line: Exact quote of "the spirit of the rule", or you have no leverage at all.

Lack of FAQ doesn't make RAW. "spirit of the rule" is RAI which means there is no quoted rule which basically means anyone who makes any argument is never right or never wrong.

This is one of the reasons GW didn't do FAQs in the beginning because they assumed players were mature enough to know how the rules were supposed to work. Since you are putting up blinders and segmenting "the spirit" to only work on transports and ignore all other movement, like deep striking shows you are ignoring "the spirit" by not following all movement that puts you as fast as possible to the closest unit.

The answer is "clarify with your opponent or TO before the game."

If you are not moving as fast as possible, prepare to be called on it... And a lack of FAQ doesn't make your interpretation right... Especially since GW gave us "the spirit of the rule" which is to move as fast as possible towards the closest unit and assault if possible. If you make actions that slow the doc, don't move towards opponents or block assault, you are breaking the spirit of the rule and the RAI GW gave us.

Yes, a lack of FAQ does make it exactly that. Everything else is a "it doesn't say that!" argumentation. Like the codex also doesn't say that may gretchin don't have lascannons.

Placing a model for whatever reason is not affected by any movement restrictions, we have proven that. This includes placing a model for the purpose of moving somewhere by deep strike, which also has been proven. There is no exception to this rule found in neither Codex:Orks, nor the FAQ.

Rules that are written apply unless any other consent has been reached. Rules that are not written in an official rules text must not be followed at all, unless a consent has been reached. By consent you can change the playing board to a 8x8 checkered board and play chess with your orks. If no consent is reached, Grotznik may deep strike whereever you wish him to, because that's what the rules say.

You failed to show that the rules are preventing grotznik from deepstriking. You failed to show that there is any loophole in his rules at all, or an exploit thereof. You failed to show the exact spirit of the rules, because we don't know it. All remains is your opinion of grotznik deep striking is cheating. You are free to have that opinion and play it that way yourself, but are not free to force it onto others.


We both know that if someone brings old trucks to a table and does shady cover moves with them, he deserves a dreadsock.
We both know that ambushing Ghazghkull with Snikrot is a legal move.
We both know that someone keeping Grotzniks boyz spread out or even moves them freely is a cheating git.
We both know that deff rollas work on vehicles.

What we both don't know is what this ominous "spirit of the rule" is. That's why we stick to the rules, and don't make up totally random stuff.

Well, for people applying "spirit of the rule," how do you play when this unit is already in close combat and now gets sucked out? You are now leaving base to base in order to get at best, 1" away.

I have run a list with this combo with 30 'ard boyz, Dok, and Zogwort. I was not trying to gain some loophole advantage, I just personally liked the way it played. I also played it with Flash Gitz, Dok, and Zogwort. I was not trying to be TFG, I just wanted to screw around with different units to see what happened. And, I find Zogwort to be fun just for that one chance in about ten where you actually get to turn someone's IC into a squig.

And, at a tournament, I did happen to have this exact situation come up. I was tied in CC and 'ere we go went off. (Dok and Zogwort with the remnants of 30 'ard boyz). I asked my opponent how he thought we should play it. He really didn't care and just said place him wherever you want. This hurt me more than him. Zogwort and the Dok WANT to be CC most of the time. EWG removed me from CC, forces me to bunch up and be subjected to template weapons, and keeps me from assaulting that turn. So, before you accuse people of maliciously cheating, it does have its drawbacks.

Not all ork players are conniving cheats. If my opponent had said you need to teleport to the closest unit, I would have been fine with that. However, I would have at least asked "Let's figure out the minimum footprint I need to safely teleport, add 1" to that and that is how far away I will place the initial model."

Jidmah wrote:Yes, a lack of FAQ does make it exactly that. Everything else is a "it doesn't say that!" argumentation. Like the codex also doesn't say that may gretchin don't have lascannons.

Placing a model for whatever reason is not affected by any movement restrictions, we have proven that. This includes placing a model for the purpose of moving somewhere by deep strike, which also has been proven. There is no exception to this rule found in neither Codex:Orks, nor the FAQ.

Deepstriking is movement.

When placing the deepstriking model, did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy? If Yes, then you are good. if you answer no. then you haven't followed Mad Dok's rule.

Rules that are written apply unless any other consent has been reached. Rules that are not written in an official rules text must not be followed at all, unless a consent has been reached. By consent you can change the playing board to a 8x8 checkered board and play chess with your orks. If no consent is reached, Grotznik may deep strike whereever you wish him to, because that's what the rules say.

No... That is not what the rules say. Only if you imply 'ere we go is arriving from reserves because all deepstrike movements are arriving from reserves. That is not supported by the rules.

if Mad Dok arrives FROM RESERVES via deepstrike, the from reserves overrules his movement rules. 'ere we go does not make you arrive from reserves, and being allowed to be placed anywhere doesn't override Mad Dok's movement.

You have nothing to support your claims accept unFAQed interpretations of the mechanics you are using. Nothing says All Deepstrikes are from reserves, nothing says 'ere we go overrides Medpak, nothing says Deepstrike is not movement.

You failed to show that the rules are preventing grotznik from deepstriking.

He may Deepstrike... he must deep strike as close as possible because it is movement and his rule is not ignored because 'ere we go is not moving from reserves.

You failed to show that there is any loophole in his rules at all, or an exploit thereof.

You have failed to explain how Deepstrike is not movement. You have failed to explain how Deepstriking with 'ere we go counts as deploying from reserves. You have failed to show how 'ere we go overrides mad dok's movement restrictions.

You failed to show the exact spirit of the rules, because we don't know it. All remains is your opinion of grotznik deep striking is cheating. You are free to have that opinion and play it that way yourself, but are not free to force it onto others.

Apply the following to every movement action:

did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?

If the answer is YES, you are within the spirit of the rule. If the answer is NO you broke the spirit of the rule. The RAW rule doesn't allow embarking transports. The FAQ allows it based upon the spirit of the rule which can be followed by asking that important question.

We both know that if someone brings old trucks to a table and does shady cover moves with them, he deserves a dreadsock.
We both know that ambushing Ghazghkull with Snikrot is a legal move.
We both know that someone keeping Grotzniks boyz spread out or even moves them freely is a cheating git.
We both know that deff rollas work on vehicles.

What we both don't know is what this ominous "spirit of the rule" is. That's why we stick to the rules, and don't make up totally random stuff.

But your version of the rule requires a bunch of unFAQed and arguably debated issues to work.

You require people to accept ALL deepstriking is from reserves so movement rules are ignored. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.
You require people to accept deepstriking is not movement. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.
You require people to accept 'ere we go's ANYWHERE over rides Grotsnik's as fast as possible. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.
You require people to accept answering NO to "did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?" to accept it is following a rule that requires to move as fast as possible when the FAQ clearly shows such a rule has many caveats and there is a 'spirit of the rule' Now you want a FAQ to what moving as fast as possible means?

It is not as clear as you think it is and not a tactic anyone should hang their hat on because evn if it DID work how you claim, mad dok MANZ are a terrible combination.

All I said was clarify with your TO or opponent.

However, I would have at least asked "Let's figure out the minimum footprint I need to safely teleport, add 1" to that and that is how far away I will place the initial model."

I would say an argument can be made that this is legal... More legal than pretending DS isn't movement. Since the rule allows pre-measuring and a 100% chance of being placed correctly VS a 75% chance of mishap means it is the fastest way to move as close as possible and assault if via a clean deepstrike.

The only restriction is I would say you would have to do it in a straight line from Dok's current position to whomever is the current closest unit. No choosing a different unit. I would say pre-measuring for a safe initial deepstrike results in a closer to the enemy and as fast as possible to assault which is a valid position to take for friendly play. I would also ask your TO.

nkelsch wrote:When placing the deepstriking model, did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy? If Yes, then you are good. if you answer no. then you haven't followed Mad Dok's rule.

See, this is not a rule. You argument dies here.

No... That is not what the rules say. Only if you imply 'ere we go is arriving from reserves because all deepstrike movements are arriving from reserves. That is not supported by the rules.

I never said that. Placing models is not movement. Grotznik has no choice where to go. If placement were movement, you would be forced to deploy Grotznik as close as possible to enemy units, which you are very obviously not.

He may Deepstrike... he must deep strike as close as possible because it is movement and his rule is not ignored because 'ere we go is not moving from reserves.

You failed to show that again - by quoting a single rule. You also failed to understand my argument.

You have failed to explain how Deepstrike is not movement. You have failed to explain how Deepstriking with 'ere we go counts as deploying from reserves. You have failed to show how 'ere we go overrides mad dok's movement restrictions.

You're right, I failed that. Because I never attempted to, because all these points are right. The process of deep striking overrides movement restrictions. Just like the process of firing a template weapon overrides the process of rolling to hit.

did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?

If the answer is YES, you are within the spirit of the rule. If the answer is NO you broke the spirit of the rule. The RAW rule doesn't allow embarking transports. The FAQ allows it based upon the spirit of the rule which can be followed by asking that important question.

So how about lash of submission? Tank shocks? Mawlocs? Monoliths? Magna grapple on Grotzniks Transport? Kareen? I just found six rules explicitly contradicting your imaginary rule, without even trying.

You require people to accept answering NO to "did you move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy?" to accept it is following a rule that requires to move as fast as possible when the FAQ clearly shows such a rule has many caveats and there is a 'spirit of the rule' Now you want a FAQ to what moving as fast as possible means?

This is not a rule. "Gortznik moves" is a defined action in WH40k. Placing a model somewhere is not movement.

You know, you still haven't given an exact quote of the spirit of the rule. Reread you post, you'll find you're basing your entire argument on something non-existent.

My answer is: it is unclear

DS IS MOVEMENT, period. What is NOT clear is - when it becomes movement.

Also Jidmah - stop with the "show me the wording of spirit of the rule" schtick, its intellectually dishonest of you as yo know what they mean by it. They are saying " the spirit of his rule is to keep on moving towards the enemy as fast as possible", by using a transport as a specific example of the spirit. We know the spirit, but what cant be certain is when DS becomes movement.

Nkelsch - if you are saying the initial placement is movement, then I presume you NEVER scatter this model through impassable terrain, and take dangerous terrain tests if you pass through difficult terrain? Placement is not movement - its just not clear WHEN it becomes movement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nkelsch - if you are saying the initial placement is movement, then I presume you NEVER scatter this model through impassable terrain, and take dangerous terrain tests if you pass through difficult terrain? Placement is not movement - its just not clear WHEN it becomes movement.

Well, depends. If he deepstrikes from reserves, then his rule is nullified due to movement restrictions upon deployment exception.

Since we don't know what counts as movement for deepstriking, we have no way to apply a RAW movement restriction, though with the spirit of the rule and combining 3-4 mechanics, 2 of which are conflicting special characters from 4th edition. I do know that deepstriking away from the closest unit or changing targets with another unit sure doesn't sound like the intended action of the rule.

I may not be able to tell you what part of Deepstriking *IS* movement but I can tell you what actions are not 'fast as possible to the closest enemy unit'.

Hence: Discuss with your TO, ask for a clear ruling and don't try to use this as a tactic as people can legitimately argue different aspects. I think unclear mechanics that break the game should be avoided especially when the people know it breaks the game and there is no clear answer.

nkelsch wrote:Hence: Discuss with your TO, ask for a clear ruling and don't try to use this as a tactic as people can legitimately argue different aspects. I think unclear mechanics that break the game should be avoided especially when the people know it breaks the game and there is no clear answer.

Yes, but you imply people would do this strictly to get this one oddball combination to go off. I ran it because I wanted a unit up front that was hard to kill while my other boyz advnaced behind. I also wanted to keep Zogwort alive vis a vis FNP, so I stuck him in there. This is an unintended by-product that only occurs less than 1 in 6 times (not sure on the math with a warphead).

But I agree I would ask to clear this up in advance as well for all rules that you feel are nebulous. I generally try to point out any issue in my army I aware of in advance (i.e. what part of the BW and deffrolla is hull, etc.) And, really, if you want to avoid unclear mechanics of 40k, than you has best throw out half the codexes and brb and we can all play with one squad of marines with bolters only.

Green is Best! wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Hence: Discuss with your TO, ask for a clear ruling and don't try to use this as a tactic as people can legitimately argue different aspects. I think unclear mechanics that break the game should be avoided especially when the people know it breaks the game and there is no clear answer.

Yes, but you imply people would do this strictly to get this one oddball combination to go off. I ran it because I wanted a unit up front that was hard to kill while my other boyz advnaced behind. I also wanted to keep Zogwort alive vis a vis FNP, so I stuck him in there. This is an unintended by-product that only occurs less than 1 in 6 times (not sure on the math with a warphead).

But I agree I would ask to clear this up in advance as well for all rules that you feel are nebulous. I generally try to point out any issue in my army I aware of in advance (i.e. what part of the BW and deffrolla is hull, etc.) And, really, if you want to avoid unclear mechanics of 40k, than you has best throw out half the codexes and brb and we can all play with one squad of marines with bolters only.

Well if it is decided your unit mishaps into oblivion due to the unintended combination of the two SCs rules, then use your warphead rerolls to avoid 'ere we go.

nkelsch wrote:You require people to accept 'ere we go's ANYWHERE over rides Grotsnik's as fast as possible. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.

And some people require others to accept that Grotsnik's as afast as possible overrides 'ere we go's ANYWHERE. This also is not supported by the rules or FAQS. If it was there would be no argument.

Happyjew wrote:

nkelsch wrote:You require people to accept 'ere we go's ANYWHERE over rides Grotsnik's as fast as possible. This is not supported by the rules or the FAQs.

And some people require others to accept that Grotsnik's as afast as possible overrides 'ere we go's ANYWHERE. This also is not supported by the rules or FAQS. If it was there would be no argument.

Specific movement overrides general movement. 'Ere we go says you may go anywhere, Dok's rule tells you that anywhere better be as fast as possible to the closest unit.

Regular movement can be made in any direction, mad Dok's rule overrides that. By your logic, Mad Dok can always move whatever direction he wishes because the rulebook allows free movement in any direction.

nkelsch wrote:

Well if it is decided your unit mishaps into oblivion due to the unintended combination of the two SCs rules, then use your warphead rerolls to avoid 'ere we go.

I doubt anyone would allow that. You roll for the power and get 'ere we go. Once you agree to that and set the model down for scatter, I think pretty much everyone would say you are past the point for re-rolling your weirdboy powers.

That's like saying if I rolled Zzap and fail to damage a vehicle, I can reroll his power and try for something else.

Again, back to the original topic. While I don't think Grotsnik's rule should apply to this power (after all, weird boyz are not supposed to "be in control" hence random abilities) and you should be able to place your teleporation wherever. If my opponent insisted, I would say that it needs to be placed in a spot where the unit will not mishap if I roll a hit.

Now, here is another question. Since time and space are relative travelling through the warp, *if* we did agree that the unit must deepstrike as close as possible, does it have to be the nearest unit or can it be any enemy unit as long as you end up within an inch away?

No, his point is that if you decide that ere we go + mad dok == oblivion, then you dont even need to place a model -you know youre going to die, so you just reroll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, his point is that if you decide that ere we go + mad dok == oblivion, then you dont even need to place a model -you know youre going to die, so you just reroll.

Basically if you play this combo and for whatever reason the unfavorable ruling is seen as the one you must follow by TO mandate or losing a 4+ roll-off, then anytime you get 'ere we go just reroll your psychic power selection before executing. You can basically give yourself a 1/36 chance of getting that power.

Just ask 'how it will work' before it happens and you can avoid game-ending conflict by blipping 800 points to oblivion.