From the fluff, who would win in 1v1 or 10v10 fight.
Both sides are wearing Carapace/Scout Armour to prevent bolt rounds from punching right through the Guardsmen
Combat Conditions, not arena combat.
Will there be any particular environment that would favour one over the other?


I think Guardsmen would have more experience after fighting for 20+ years, since Scouts IIRC are only about 14-18 years old.

Nah, scouts take it all the way. IIRC, to be a scout, you've already got enough experience and training to be considered combat ready, by SM standards. Also, are Space Wolf scouts allowed at this party?

Having read many books where bolt rounds go right through power armour, I don't think carapace armour is going to stop them.

Also, don't the fight for decades as scouts before being elevated to full battle brother? If so they could easily have more experience as well as most of the physical advantages marines have.

Not arena combat? Depends highly on the environment, then. I see the Marine Scout as having a big advantage thanks to his genetic modifications, but a veteran Guardsman/Storm Trooper knowing the area may be able to simply overwhelm him with some trick, even without weapons.

I mean, did you hear what Colonel Straken did to a Night Lords Chaos Lord? Strangling him to death. With a fething root. I kid you not.

Lynata wrote:Not arena combat? Depends highly on the environment, then. I see the Marine Scout as having a big advantage thanks to his genetic modifications, but a veteran Guardsman/Storm Trooper knowing the area may be able to simply overwhelm him with some trick, even without weapons.

I mean, did you hear what Colonel Straken did to a Night Lords Chaos Lord? Strangling him to death. With a fething root. I kid you not.

Woah, woah, woah. Source? Straken may be a badass, but I don't think he could take down a CSM with a root.

Scouts are NOT noobs.

Most are individualistic soldiers who cannot stand the front line rigidity.

Ditto for the IG.

The scouts do have the stats and genetic material, but the vets have survived despite all that......I play IG, but I think the SM scouts win.

First off, this matchup isn't quite right. An IG veteran and an IG Stormtrooper are *NOT* the same thing. Lets use the Stormtrooper here.

If you're comparing a Storm Trooper to an SM scout, in a fist fight the scout's going to win because his body is already all hulked out, in a general combat situation, the Storm Trooper will probably win out due to superior training (remember, a Scout is still in training and generating all his genetic modifications still, doesn't shoot as well, etc) and experience (having been in combat training since birth amongst the most grueling training regime outside the Astartes, and is basically the best thing out there after a Space Marine in terms of human soldiers)

sfshilo wrote:Scouts are NOT noobs.

Most are individualistic soldiers who cannot stand the front line rigidity.

Ditto for the IG.

The scouts do have the stats and genetic material, but the vets have survived despite all that......I play IG, but I think the SM scouts win.

SM Scouts actually are Novice Space Marines.

Stormtrooper would beat Scout.

I would imagine that a guard veteran squad would cut down a marine scout squad, any day of the week.

that extra 10-15 years of combat training will have them working as a team, to catch the scouts off guard and kill them.

One of the main advantages I always saw to space marines was their long lifespan, along with greater vitality. That long life span gives them experience, and skill way beyond what a normal man could ever achieve.

The scouts don't have that experience; They are basically just stronger, tougher guardsmen, who have been through a significantly more rigorous basic training course.

Coolyo294 wrote:Woah, woah, woah. Source? Straken may be a badass, but I don't think he could take down a CSM with a root.

Codex Planetstrike, the "Glorious Assaults" section. In all fairness, it was a poisonous root - but still, quite a feat, and goes to show how veteran Guardsmen who know the area may make use of that knowledge..

Catachan Bites Back - 972.M41
Chaos Lord Ratathrax of the Night Lords invades Catachan. Sending vast anti-plant barrages onto the planet, Rarathrax robs the Catachan Imperial Guard of their most natural defence before systematically bombing their bastion networks into rubble. Ratathrax makes planetfall to enjoy the butchery first hand. Unfortunately for him, Colonel Straken, lying in ambush in a quagmire of toxic sludge, waits for Ratathrax to remove his helmet before throttling him with a poisonous barb-root.

Straken is badass indeed.

The scouts win due to their 3+ cover save from the cover they are in and the camo cloaks they wear.

If it's a Catachan veteran, then I give it to the Guardsman. Otherwise, the Space Marine Scout gets my vote. That's just where I would place betting money, mind you. I'd still be pretty uncomfortable wagering on the outcome.

well if we are talking shooting, I would say the storm troops because their hotshot lasguns and their ranged training. The hotshot can go right through power armor so it would melt a scout. If we are talking a knock out drag out street brawl a scout would win because of the genetic mutations that they have.

STs win due to better equipment and experience

theman99808 wrote:well if we are talking shooting, I would say the storm troops because their hotshot lasguns and their ranged training. The hotshot can go right through power armor so it would melt a scout. If we are talking a knock out drag out street brawl a scout would win because of the genetic mutations that they have.

Hotshot lasguns do not go through the scouts 3+ cover save.

acekevin8412 wrote:Combat Conditions, not arena combat.
Will there be any particular environment that would favour one over the other?

Depends on what combat conditions really.

also hinges on what equipment they have at their disposal.

Vets can take camo cloaks too

Your argument is invalid

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120157/

This issue has already been answered by Kurt Russell.

Thanks for all the responses everyone.
After checking the Lexicanum, I'm going to clarify some of the parameters of the question.

According to the lex, a marine is a full marine when they receive the black carapace implant at around 18 years old. While scout sergeants are undoubtedly more experienced, the question is going to focus on just initiates. For the squad combat, the squad is led by a sergeant.

Next, the topic of battle circumstances. Under what conditions would the IG Vets/STs win, and under what conditions would scouts win.

Conditions encompass the environment and equipment available.

For a control test, I suggest an open field with both sides within optimal firing range of their weapons. Vets w/ lasguns and Scouts w/ bolters or bolt pistol/ccw.

acekevin8412 wrote:
According to the lex, a marine is a full marine when they receive the black carapace implant at around 18 years old.

Where'd you find this?

Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

thenoobbomb wrote:Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

A storm trooper not only knows how to outflank, he also deep strikes. He is a better marksman than a scout too and tend to have better weapons.

acekevin8412 wrote:Next, the topic of battle circumstances. Under what conditions would the IG Vets/STs win, and under what conditions would scouts win. Conditions encompass the environment and equipment available.

Open field will favour the Scout. Even if his opponents are more experienced, he may soak a number of hits from a lasgun depending on where he is hit. A hellgun may take him out in one shot, but I wouldn't bet on it. A bolt weapon hit, however, will at least neutralize even a Storm Trooper or IG Vet. They are still only human.

That said, if there's cover (a forest or urban environment), advantage shifts to the Vet/ST, as their weapons will have more ammunition and thus prevail in a prolonged fire exchange. Experience will prevail here. Furthermore, cover would negate the Marine's ability to charge into close combat, where he would easily overpower a human. As long as it's not someone like Straken or Harker.

thenoobbomb wrote:Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

Not quite. Imperial Guard Storm Troopers are schooled from childhood in military tactics and weapon drills, and will have way over a decade of training under their belts even before graduating the Schola Progenium. Where do the average Marine Chapters recruit from? Feral worlds? When young barbarians become Aspirants they'll have a couple years of knowing how to throw spears and "beat people up" and that's about it. After their initiation, hypno-Indoctrination will negate part of this by flash-training, but imho, proper experience cannot be replaced but needs to be earned. Not to mention that many Space Marine Chapters have a culture favoring a brute force approach (doubtlessly fitting both to their homeworld's history as well as the general "shock and awe" modus operandi of the Astartes) over the kind of tactical finesse the Storm Troopers are known for. That said, this will depend heavily on the individual Chapter in question.

Essentially, a Storm Trooper will possess much more training and knowledge, whereas a fresh Scout will sport genetically-engineered superior physique. Both are advantages, but it will take the Scout some time until he can catch up to the ST's experience and enjoy the benefits of both ... at which point he'll likely make the transition to a fully-fledged Marine.

thenoobbomb wrote:Imagine a stormtrooper. But geneseed in him. Learn him how to outflank and do Space Marine stuff. There you go, one scout for you, sir.

We'll have to imagine him without a life-long brutal training regime from birth, the extensive years of combat experience since adolescence, intimate familiarity with technology, air drop capabilities, etc.

And a Stormtrooper is more than capable if infiltrating and outflanking.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:
According to the lex, a marine is a full marine when they receive the black carapace implant at around 18 years old.

Where'd you find this?

I found it here.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.TozClN6Ik8k

It seems the first hand source came from a WD though.

Lordraymond wrote:Vets can take camo cloaks too

Your argument is invalid

Point being Hotshot lasguns do not deny the marines a 3+ cover save.

It still hinges on the exact combat situation.

I was under the impression this was a fluff battle.

3+ cover saves have no place here.

Storm Troopers; better BS, can have move through cover and scouts, hotshot lasguns can punch through scout armor.

They both can have the same cover save, but if they hit open fields, ST have a 4+ armor, scouts got nothing. Alternatively, deep strike them with flamers.

If this is a straight-on Fluff Battle....

.... depends on who's fluff you're reading. Are these FluffMarines from the SupermanSpecialMarines Chapter? Or are these Regular Joes Marines from the Badass-but-not-Perfect Marines Chapter?

In the former case, the Marine wins, automatically. He'll get his carapace shot through half a dozen times from the ST's hellgun, be grievously wounded, pushing his implants to their limits... and then kill the ST in close combat with a space-spork or something.

In the latter case? Well, the SM will still probably win, because it's an SM, though I would give the Stormtrooper even odds. Regular IG? No way in hell.

Pen≥Sword wrote:I was under the impression this was a fluff battle.

3+ cover saves have no place here.

In that case the Marines would win.

They would make the use of cover if they find themselves outgunned while they advance and get into melee combat where the Stormtroopers do not have much of a chance.

DeathReaper wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:I was under the impression this was a fluff battle.

3+ cover saves have no place here.

In that case the Marines would win.

They would make the use of cover if they find themselves outgunned while they advance and get into melee combat where the Stormtroopers do not have much of a chance.

And the ST couldn't make use of greater experience to gain advantage on the scout ways to keep opening range to keep the Scout at bay? Keep in mind we're also talking about a 7ft dude in full carapace armor, not exactly the hardest thing to spot, and they don't always have camo cloaks by any means.

Seriously, Kurt Russel as Sgt Todd wins. Soldier. The Movie.

Vaktathi wrote:And the ST couldn't make use of greater experience to gain advantage on the scout ways to keep opening range to keep the Scout at bay? Keep in mind we're also talking about a 7ft dude in full carapace armor, not exactly the hardest thing to spot, and they don't always have camo cloaks by any means.

Remember the scouts are led by a full fledged Space Marine Sergeant, His experiences dwarf any and all ST experiences. I would imagine he would lead the combat squad around the flank while the dug in sniper scouts kept the ST's wondering. then once the Sgt launched the assault, its over for the ST's.

I've never served in any armed force, but how much does effective leadership affect how the unit performs as a whole?

Also, how many STs would it take to down a Scout Sergeant?

IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Jubear wrote:IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Wat.
First off, Storm Troopers are just as religious as Space Marines.
Second, a Scout doesn't just have the Carapace Armor and a Bolter. He is a Space Marine, sans Black Carapace.

I thought this was a one on one fight.

Actually we're discussing 1v1 and 10v10.

1v1 Scout sgt then?

sure why not. I think its agreed that in shooting the ST would win and in h2h the Scout would win.

Might as well do Scout Sergeants too.
Heck, while we're at it Wolf Scouts too.

Coolyo294 wrote:

Jubear wrote:IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Wat.
First off, Storm Troopers are just as religious as Space Marines.
Second, a Scout doesn't just have the Carapace Armor and a Bolter. He is a Space Marine, sans Black Carapace.

In your head the may be but in my head they are far to busy surviving to be bothered by something as stupid as religion.

And you know the best thing? You cant tell me otherwise because its a fictional universe there is no right answer.

Jubear wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

Jubear wrote:IG vets and storm troopers everytime. A bunch of religous fanatics in carapace armor is no match for proper professional soldiers.

Just like modern combat all the IG has to do is pin the scouts till they can call a arty strike to do away with them.

Wat.
First off, Storm Troopers are just as religious as Space Marines.
Second, a Scout doesn't just have the Carapace Armor and a Bolter. He is a Space Marine, sans Black Carapace.

In your head the may be but in my head they are far to busy surviving to be bothered by something as stupid as religion.

And you know the best thing? You cant tell me otherwise because its a fictional universe there is no right answer.

Yes, there is.
From Lexicanum:

Storm Trooper recruits are chosen from the progena of the Schola Progenium, where they have been raised and educated, and molded into loyal and dedicated servants of the Emperor

.

Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Jubear wrote:Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Yeah, so you know space marines are actually giant blue gerbils, right? Because the fluff always changes, it makes it true.

I think the Vets, or Storm troopers would win. This is based on the cunning and general survivability of most of these types of troops. Take Vets for example, they got the name of veteran because they've survived things that killed most of their comrades. Not only that, but many of the Vets have weapons they we're requisitioned or looted off the corpse of a fallen enemy (or friend). While scouts are powerful and a big threat the Vets have probablly gone up against even more insurmountable odds and overcome. They are survivors by their nature and the epitomy of what humans do best, which is adapt and overcome.

Storm Troopers have many of the same qualities Vets do, and with an even more intense training regiment they would easily destroy the Scouts in a fire fight. I think this because they are trained to be able to handle any combat situation from jumping out of an aircraft to infiltrating an enemy base and destroying everything in sight. Plus, Storm troopers are ready to lay down their lives just to complete their objective. This willingness to die, ontop of all of their training makes them a superior fighting force than Scouts. (Plus they are Elites compared to troops)

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Jubear wrote:Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Yeah, so you know space marines are actually giant blue gerbils, right? Because the fluff always changes, it makes it true.

Yeah they could be for all I know because fluff is always changing and if that is what SM are in your head then go with it who am I to tell you your wrong.

Those Storm Troopers that are meant for the one IG ST regiment all come from the Schola Progenium, which is run by the Ecclesiarchy. This should pretty much be an accepted fact for anyone who follows the setting as laid out by GW.

That said, I would not call them religious fanatics. Just like the Commissars, Assassins, Inquisitors, Scribes and NCOs the Schola churns out, they are far more "professional" than the Sisters, their upbringing focusing more on a deep sense of loyalty and devotion to the Imperium rather than religious zeal, though it should be noted that the two concepts are, in a way, only two sides of the same coin. But you won't see a Storm Trooper endanger his mission because it's prayer time or something like that.

When it comes to the Storm Troopers, I like to think of Schola education as akin to the Napola of Nazi-Germany, if that helps to convey the image: movie trailer

On another note, not all Space Marines are religious fanatics either. In fact, I only know a few Chapters I'd actually describe as such, as Astartes don't seem very religious in general. A more accurate term might be ... hm ... dedication to a cause? Similar to the Storm Troopers. The smarter kind of zeal, basically.

Jubear wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Jubear wrote:Lexicanum? Oh you mean a website run with no input from GW that lexicnum you mean?

Mate Ive been involved in the hobby since 91 Ive seen squats come and go Ive see the Tau appear from nowhere and Ive seen enough key points of the lore changed to know that anything can change at any time lore wise and there is never a "right" answer.

Yeah, so you know space marines are actually giant blue gerbils, right? Because the fluff always changes, it makes it true.

Yeah they could be for all I know because fluff is always changing and if that is what SM are in your head then go with it who am I to tell you your wrong.

The Zen-Reverse Troll!

If they're toting the camo cloaks, the Scouts, if they're carrying the Stalker-pattern (sniper) boltguns, take it by a mile. They can sit in the same place, not moving, for days on end, and remain fully functional, whereas a Stormtrooper, being merely human, cannot. The SM's body recycles his waste... the ST's, er, doesn't.

Psienesis wrote:The SM's body recycles his waste...

Only with power armour.
That said, I'm sure both the Storm Troopers as well as the Scout would carry ration packs. But the Scout would still be able to live a bit longer even when food runs out due to speshul gene magiks I reckon. And you make a good point about remaining motionless for extended amounts of time. I've never read that, but it seems believable.

I find the level of "survival skills" would be about equal. A scout could still be a scout for at least a decade of full combat before proper elevation to Battle-Brother status, and given their possible equipment choices (Sniper Rifle, Heavy Bolter, boltguns, etc) makes some REALLY nice firepower.

From what I understand the Stormtrooper's hellgun could kill a Scout, but Scouts fight smart, not nearly as bold as a full-Astartes.

They're Astartes without Power Armor, as by the age of 17 or so, that's all they need to be a full Marine, with all the training, skills, and genetic modification they would have. That alone could prove the difference.

Scouts win every time. they are stronger and faster than any IG vet. simple as that. they are trained to a much higher standard than the IG vets. Besides to be recruited and inducted as a scout in a SM fiorce in the first place you have to be one Bad ass Mofo. The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness. the vets are only vets because they have survived their first major conflict. scouts do that everyday.

Don't underestimate Guard veterans. A CSM -Lord- did that and got strangled by one.

DeathReaper wrote:
Remember the scouts are led by a full fledged Space Marine Sergeant, His experiences dwarf any and all ST experiences.

IIRC this was a straight comparison of an average scout against an average ST, where this wouldn't come into play. That said, ST's aren't exactly nubcakes, and we're talking an entire unit of the best trained, most experienced troops the Imperium has to offer outside the Space Marines, the IG's equivalent of SAS/SEALS.

I would imagine he would lead the combat squad around the flank while the dug in sniper scouts kept the ST's wondering. then once the Sgt launched the assault, its over for the ST's.

Agan, this is assuming the ST's are pants on head slowed and not insanely trained, highly experienced special forces assault troops.

The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness.

Not really, but whatever.

the vets are only vets because they have survived their first major conflict.

Again, not entirely accurate, and keep in mind that a major conflict for the IG makes the Second World War look like a skirmish. To survive that probably means you're a pretty badassmofo.


Also, there's Vets and then there are Stormtroopers.

Scouts would probably win, unless it was on Catachan..
The scouts have similar combat skill, better equipment, stronger, faster, tougher, and they have the sarge, who is a space marine, without the armor.

Catachans always win. Cause they are the last action heroes of 40k.

Vaktathi wrote:

beef wrote:The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness.

Not really, but whatever.

To be fair, that depends highly on the individual homeworld. They share all the same stats in the TT right now because they have a single Codex, but judging from the fluff I see a huge disparity in quality between, say, a Catachan regiment and the Jopall Indentured. That said, the Storm Troopers are arguably one of the best regiments of the Imperial Guard as a whole (and they do hold a very unique role), whereas it is safe to say that IG Veterans must have been good enough to survive the many battles to actually be counted vets. The Codex entries on those blooded and decimated Veteran units are fairly grimdark, anyways, and sound very much like professional Darwinism to me.

And yeah, OP was asking to compare a Scout Initiate to a Guard Veteran and/or Storm Trooper. Scout Sergeants only come into play for the squad-level comparison.

On squad level, I could see the Scouts having a much easier win than in a one-on-one, as they'd profit from the experience of their leader, and the genetical superiority of their bodies would increase group efficiency exponentially. Just an "educated guess", though.

Lynata wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The IG takes on anybody who can pass basic fitness.

Not really, but whatever.

To be fair, that depends highly on the individual homeworld. They share all the same stats in the TT right now because they have a single Codex, but judging from the fluff I see a huge disparity in quality between, say, a Catachan regiment and the Jopall Indentured. That said, the Storm Troopers are arguably one of the best regiments of the Imperial Guard as a whole (and they do hold a very unique role), whereas it is safe to say that IG Veterans must have been good enough to survive the many battles to actually be counted vets. The Codex entries on those blooded and decimated Veteran units are fairly grimdark, anyways, and sound very much like professional Darwinism to me.

And yeah, OP was asking to compare a Scout Initiate to a Guard Veteran and/or Storm Trooper. Scout Sergeants only come into play for the squad-level comparison.

On squad level, I could see the Scouts having a much easier win than in a one-on-one, as they'd profit from the experience of their leader, and the genetical superiority of their bodies would increase group efficiency exponentially. Just an "educated guess", though.

Please do not misquote me.
Not really sure where you got that quote from, but I never said that in the Orange up there...

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Remember the scouts are led by a full fledged Space Marine Sergeant, His experiences dwarf any and all ST experiences.

IIRC this was a straight comparison of an average scout against an average ST, where this wouldn't come into play. That said, ST's aren't exactly nubcakes, and we're talking an entire unit of the best trained, most experienced troops the Imperium has to offer outside the Space Marines, the IG's equivalent of SAS/SEALS.

The Scouts are equally similar to the SAS/SEALS, but (at least) a decade of intense training, many implants (like the brain compartmentalization, where sleep is not needed for up to 2 weeks, nigh on impervious to extreme weather, Larraman's Organ (swift healing of wounds), the Omophagea (the 'learn by eating' organ, where genetic memories are absorbed by consuming the flesh, so a Scout could potentially eat a local animal and have a strong understanding of the area), the heavily increased vision, and the Betcher's Gland (aka, the acid-spitting gland).

They also have intense reaction speeds.

ST's may not be nubcakes, but a Space Marine Scout is still on a higher level playing field, between his heavy firepower, genetic modifications, and other things even an ST would lack.

Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.

Pouncey wrote:Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.

wtfamireading.jpg

Pouncey wrote:Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.

You sir are my hero may the dice gods bless you with luck and courage.

However I think your forgetting the "snuggle" gland that Space Marines have implanted as part of the space marine makeover they all recieve. This gland allows the space marine to snuggle at maxium efficiency with out his arm falling asleep under his partner. They truly are super human

Concealment: Both tend to use camo to fit the terrain (even if most scouts are modeled in flashy colors...) Also both can take Camo cloaks to further increase concealment Edge: DRAW

Tactics: Scouts are newly inducted space marines. They don't have much experience in the arts of war. The IG on the other hand have seen the elephant, they've experience war in its horror. Their experience on the battlefield will show. Edge: IG

Weapons: This one is tough, on one hand you got the scouts with their bolters, compared to the IG with the lasgun. However IG can take plasma guns, but for the basic weapon, the higher stopping power of the bolter wins out. Edge: Scouts.

Armor: They both wear the same armor. Edge: Draw

Accuracy: The IG are better marksmen then the scouts. Which ensures the ig will hit more then the scouts. EDGE: IG

Close Combat: Both are equally skilled in Close combat EDGE: DRAW

Attributes: The scouts are faster, stronger, and tougher. EDGE: Scouts

If we tally up the totals the Scouts have an edge in 2 of the categories. While the IG have an edge 2 Categories. Seemingly this is a draw and could go either way. However, the IG have the edge in a very crucial category, they are more experienced in actual combat. Which is a major factor. And the other is their superior accuracy. Drawing from this, I have come to the conclusion that the IG will use their experience to force the scouts to engage at range, negating the superior strength of the scouts. Also using their experience the IG will use the battlefield to their advantage better then the scouts would. I'd say its extremely close but i'd say the IG would win 55-60% of the time.


Now feel free to disagree with me, i mean its only a game, and if we count in plot armor the scouts will slaughter over 9000 guardsmen without a single causality. And why did i do this post, well i'm at work and really @#$%&% bored.

I have to disagree with the close combat result. They do fight the same, but Scouts hit harder.

Yeah i was think purely in terms of skill.

Scouts are faster, stronger, and tougher, but still fail in close combat?

And how do IG have better accuracy? Scouts are often the marksmen, using high-power sniper rifles from great distances. The whole point is, y'know marksmanship. Not to mention the better reflexes and eyesight of a Scout. (not even in rules-terms does this work, at best ST's are their equals with a BS of 4, never mind in the fluff)

Not sure when ST's start training, but Scout starts when he was 10, and at the earliest becomes a full battle-brother 10 years later or so. Possibly longer.

And a Scout would take part in battles alongside normal Marines regularly, facing the same war, and taking down the same horrors. Both might be similar in some areas, but the Scouts would clearly come out on top.

I believe being able to eat things and gain their knowledge of the area would help the Scouts quite a bit with the whole "being able to use his environment to his advantage" bit.

(Also, I'd suggest not using IG as an alternate term for Stormtroopers. An average Guardsman would die 1v1 100% of the time, and their average lifespan of a new guardsman is about 15 hours. Not much experience there. I can see you're trying to use ST as your point, but the IG is a very different beast.)

I did say IG Veteran...

Referring to ObliviousBlueCaboose's big post.

Not yours, sorry about that.

Scout - everyone keeps saying the IG have 'more experience' - the scout has the codex astartes, remember that IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. The scout has superior traiing, technology, equipment and skills. He is hypno-indoctrinated (think neo in the matrix ... 'I know kung-fu!') with tons of knowledge and wisdom. He knows no fear. I'm not saying the vets would be push overs but the scouts would probably have them for breakfast

Phototoxin wrote:Scout - everyone keeps saying the IG have 'more experience' - the scout has the codex astartes, remember that IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. The scout has superior traiing, technology, equipment and skills. He is hypno-indoctrinated (think neo in the matrix ... 'I know kung-fu!') with tons of knowledge and wisdom. He knows no fear. I'm not saying the vets would be push overs but the scouts would probably have them for breakfast

THANK YOU!

I get *some* IG special warriors can have a lot of experience, but I can never get that argument that they'd have that more experience than a Scout. (The Imperial Guard isn't a career for long, full lives. 10 years is a pretty darn long time to be in active duty, and still be alive)

They both go out in a blaze of glory. Most likely scenario by far.

Fluff-wise, even Scouts should mop the floor with anybody but the most legendary IG hero (i.e. Straken, Yarrick). You don't get to be a Space Marine by lottery, most of their inductees are the smartest, toughest, and strongest from very scary death worlds, who then get genetically enhanced and hypno-trained to be superhuman fighting machines on top of being Rambo. A Scout's spit could kill a Stormtrooper, and a Stormtrooper could shoot a Scout with his lasgun point-blank and stands a good chance of just leaving scorch marks. You are talking Navy SEALS versus comic-book superheroes.

In game terms, Scouts need a 4+ to hit at range and a 3+ to wound at range (with a bolt pistol), and the Stormtroopers need a 3+ to hit and a 5+ to wound. Advantage Scouts. In CC, they are on equal terms, but the Scouts hit first and only need a 3+ to wound again, while the Stormtroopers still need a 5+ to wound, and only the survivors get to swing back. Space Marines mop the floor with them on equal terms.

Jubear wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Hm, well... The first objective would obviously be to see who can give the best bearhug. The Space Marine Scout is significantly stronger than a "normal" human, even a Stormtrooper or Imperial Guard Veteran. So the Scout would have the advantage in round one - especially if he manages not to break any ribs on the person being huggled.

The second objective would obviously be to give good backrubs. I'd certainly volunteer to be a judge, and I'd imagine that both would possess the necessary strength to really make me all comfy, but the Veteran/Stormtrooper would have the advantage of years more experience, and so would have learned the best ways to apply his strength. Hm, maybe a tie, and I'd probably end up taking a good nap - backrubs make me all calm and sleepy. If the particular Scout were to use all his strength, he'd probably end up hurting me more than anything else, so he'd lose points there.

The third and final objective would be cuddling. The Scout would likely be brawny enough to hug me close and keep me safe and comfy, but so would an Imperial Guard Veteran or Stormtrooper, and the latter two would probably, again, have more experience.

Hm, the Scout's superior strength may actually be a disadvantage in this contest, especially seeing as he'd just be learning to use his newfound strength and so may end up harming me more than anything else. The Veteran and Stormtrooper would both possess enough strength, but have learned how to use it best given their years of experience.

Gotta give it to the Veterans or Stormtroopers.

You sir are my hero may the dice gods bless you with luck and courage.

However I think your forgetting the "snuggle" gland that Space Marines have implanted as part of the space marine makeover they all recieve. This gland allows the space marine to snuggle at maxium efficiency with out his arm falling asleep under his partner. They truly are super human

Your prayer to the dice gods was not in vain. Tonight, the friendly Space Marines I was fighting with my Eldar were dealt crippling blows. My two squads of Banshees cleared enemy troops from their held objectives without suffering so much as a single casualty, as the enemy were slaughtered before they could act. My Dark Reaper Exarch personally claimed the lives of an entire 8-man Assault Squad, 6 Tactical Marines, and an unknown number of another Assault Squad, even as his whole squad each took a krak missile for him. My Banshees are closing in on the remaining humans, eager for vengeance for the two Dire Avengers squads, the Fire Dragons squad, and the four Dark Reapers who have all fallen in an ultimately pointless battle between friend and ally. Victory is near, as only a handful of the humans remain alive.

:: snaps out of it ::

Hmm, I hadn't heard of this snuggle gland. It may indeed prove to increase their potency in the ultimate contest of snuggletime.

1. I was using the IG vet, assumed everyone would be reading from the beginning and would know we are comparing vets or stormtroopers to scouts. I went with vets since its more of a fair fight. Stormtroopers would have slaughtered the scouts, being the best of the best the guard has to offer. Also the 15 hours you refer to is a book called 15 hours This was the expected lifespan of a new guardsman on a ork controlled world. Not he average lifespan of a regular guardsman. Good book, suggest you read it if you haven't already. http://www.amazon.com/Fifteen-Hours-Warhammer-40-000/dp/1844162311

2. Close combat was comparing skill vs skill. So their WS was both 3. Hence Equally skilled.

3.Vets are BS 4. Scouts BS 3. 4>3. Hence Vets have better accuracy

4. Personal experience is alot better then using a guide. Example, putting together a model for the first time. Sure you have the guide, but once you actually know how its done the next one you build is a lot faster.

5. Bolters being better are covered in equipment. As is the scouts being tougher faster and stronger being covered in attributes. Really its making me think you guys just skipped to the end.

6. Fluff wise it depends on who writes it. Matt ward would have scouts owning every time hands down. While on the other hand someone like dan abnett would have the IG Win. So i've been using the stat line as a guide line for how they'd would be in "real life"

DeathReaper wrote:Please do not misquote me. Not really sure where you got that quote from, but I never said that in the Orange up there...

No idea how your name slipped in there, it's fixed now with the person who actually said it. Sorry! :(

Phototoxin wrote:Scout - everyone keeps saying the IG have 'more experience' - the scout has the codex astartes, remember that IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. The scout has superior traiing, technology, equipment and skills. He is hypno-indoctrinated (think neo in the matrix ... 'I know kung-fu!') with tons of knowledge and wisdom. He knows no fear. I'm not saying the vets would be push overs but the scouts would probably have them for breakfast

Elector wrote:I get *some* IG special warriors can have a lot of experience, but I can never get that argument that they'd have that more experience than a Scout. (The Imperial Guard isn't a career for long, full lives. 10 years is a pretty darn long time to be in active duty, and still be alive)

Storm Troopers and IG Veterans are bound to have way more experience based on how they got where they are. The former literally had decades of training, conditioning and battle simulations starting right in their childhood, and the latter must have obviously seen enough real combat and survived to be called "vets". I really wouldn't compare them to ordinary Guardsmen, which I think is happening here.

And yes, IG combat doctrines can be a bit backwards. Very much depending on the regiment and the commander in charge. The Storm Trooper regiment is a huge exception from this - they don't even fight like a "proper" regiment, instead specializing in deep infiltration and support/specops missions. Also, there's a huge difference between wisdom and (technologically induced) knowledge. What kind of "wisdom" does a freshly inducted Marine Scout who still remembers his time as a feral warrior with spear and bow have? Not as much as a true veteran, I'd wager - regardless of said vet being a Marine or a Guardsman.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

5. Bolters being better are covered in equipment. As is the scouts being tougher faster and stronger being covered in attributes. Really its making me think you guys just skipped to the end.

6. Fluff wise it depends on who writes it. Matt ward would have scouts owning every time hands down. While on the other hand someone like dan abnett would have the IG Win. So i've been using the stat line as a guide line for how they'd would be in "real life"

My point with the gear and close combat is that the attributes and weapons directly affect their success in other groupings. If you're stronger, tougher, and faster, and can spit a highly caustic blinding acid-poison into their eyes, how do you lose in close combat, assuming neither has special weapons? Same if you've better ranged weapons.

Rules don't give as clear an idea of the unit's capabilities (balance terms and such, can't have a scout equal to regular marines in some stats or they'd only use them), hence going by fluff. I don't know about you, but I don't think it would only be Mat Ward who would write the scouts as winning.

(And I read the book, that's where I got it from. Having just re-read the passage, I forgot it was about specifically for Broucheroc. My bad there. But I still can't help but feel like the Scouts would still succeed. Sure ST's are the best of the best of the guard, but the Astartes are something else entirely, even for Scouts. You forget all they're missing from full battle-brothers at their peak is the Black Carapace, and thus only the Power Armor)

Astartes or no Astartes, I'd wager a hit from a bolt weapon or a hellgun will both take you out (welcome to the 41st Millennium, where weapon power is determined by how many times a single shot could kill a person over again). It may well come down to who shoots first, which is where I at least think it possible that simple experience and a whole life of training may give STs an edge over some Scout newb.

Just my two shells, of course. I could see it swing either way, hence my earlier opinion that it may depend on the environment.

A vet with a normal lasgun will have a harder time, though ... unless he manages a headshot!

People forget Scouts aren't mere "newbs". They've been training almost constantly for a decade. AND the implants.

The weapon would take either out, but a Scout could fight for up to 2 weeks without any sleep/rest.

Not to mention superior vision and reflexes. I still think they would play a pretty major role in a shoot-out (A scout could go from longer range, and aim as well, or he could attack at night, where his low-light vision would pay off)

A whole life of combat effectiveness with a human lifespan is 20 years, at max (assuming you start at around 10, to 30, when your body isn't as fit as it used to be). Space marines live for centuries, a Scout would be at a MINIMUM be training for a decade. And have the physical capabilities of a human at their absolute peak throughout. By the time a ST's vast experience is enough, their body will start lagging behind. (More than a decade and a bit puts them in their twenties, but that might not be enough. If you expect them to thoroughly trounce the Scout, they'd have to be another 5 years beyond that to make it count. That puts them in the 30's, by then time and the stress of war will hurt them more than help them).

ST's are very human, and if they're that experienced, enough to overcome all of the Scout's advantages, war will take its toll.

Elector wrote:People forget Scouts aren't mere "newbs". They've been training almost constantly for a decade. AND the implants.

Isn't "being a Scout" their training? I thought this stuff would run simultaneously/parallel to each other. Do they really only enter "Scout-hood" at the age of ~25?

I'm not too versed with Marine training programs, so it could well be that I was talking BS in that regard.

Elector wrote:ST's are very human, and if they're that experienced, enough to overcome all of the Scout's advantages, war will take its toll.

That is quite true, the attrition rate in the Storm Trooper regiment is very high. The 2E dex had cool rules to represent this - a typical ST squad was basically a mix of fresh recruits and veterans. It's a constant rotation of new people joining a unit whilst old ones die, with few badass exceptions.

Just pointing out that the more important units, such as Storm Trooper Regiments may be able to receive rejuvenation treatments to keep them at their peak.

Lynata wrote:

Elector wrote:People forget Scouts aren't mere "newbs". They've been training almost constantly for a decade. AND the implants.

Isn't "being a Scout" their training? I thought this stuff would run simultaneously/parallel to each other. Do they really only enter "Scout-hood" at the age of ~25?

I'm not too versed with Marine training programs, so it could well be that I was talking BS in that regard.

Elector wrote:ST's are very human, and if they're that experienced, enough to overcome all of the Scout's advantages, war will take its toll.

That is quite true, the attrition rate in the Storm Trooper regiment is very high. The 2E dex had cool rules to represent this - a typical ST squad was basically a mix of fresh recruits and veterans. It's a constant rotation of new people joining a unit whilst old ones die, with few badass exceptions.

Yes. For the ten or so years of Scout-hood they are training. Constantly.

In full war.

They would enter full-Astartes at the age of 20-ish, they start as Scouts at the age of 10-ish (fluff I have on me is vague about that).

(Granted, I am assuming these aren't Scouts who were just picked, as then, to make things equal, the ST wouldn't have trained either. So it's two angry 10-year olds wailing on each other.)

Scouts are the new guys, or as people with low iqs say newbs (hate that word) Its their training period they spend as scouts. Via lexacanum

Scouts are the new recruits of a Space Marine chapter who have advanced far enough in their training and biological transformation that have begun to take part in battle with the rest of the Chapter.

So while they may have been in training since 10ish, they probually will not actually be put into battle until 15 or 16. My guess here, for the implants have to have time to be... well implanted.

Again, since they are the recruits first going into battle, they will have theoretical knowledge of how to fight. Vets and ST, will have practical experience on how to fight.

I will concede the scouts will have a fighting chance against the vets. However, with the superior training and experience of a sstormtrooper, plus the superior weapons they have, would wipe the floor with the scouts.

wib wrote:Having read many books where bolt rounds go right through power armour, I don't think carapace armour is going to stop them.

Also, don't the fight for decades as scouts before being elevated to full battle brother? If so they could easily have more experience as well as most of the physical advantages marines have.

This. Plus only the best humans possible are suited to become a scout. ST and Vets aren't so picky, there's just a lot of training.

They have equivalent weaponry at worst.

Sources seem to differ on when they start their training. Most books I've read (James Swallow's Blood Angel books and the BA codex, the books I have on hand) indicate there is a year spent "under" as the genetic modification does its work, vastly increasing their physical capabilities. Then they train. Then Lexicanum says they are getting their implants all along. So I'm not sure, but they're sure to not have such a small amount of training before becoming a full battle-brother. You don't become a Scout based on anything but merit. Then you become the pinnacle of humanity.

And as I explained earlier, for the experience to overcome all the other advantages a Scout has, they would be well past their prime.

I doubt chemical life-enhancers would be common for soldiers in the IG (even ST's) given their large numbers and lack of importance of the individual. Maybe a prosthetic limb, but given the rate of deaths.... well, war as an un-augmented human in the Imperium isn't good for the health.

Not exactly. Just because you're physically strong doesn't mean you can become a Scout if you suffer from implant rejection. The ones that do become Scouts are the ones that survive the screening process, implantation, and then Scout duty.

Another thing to point out is that just because a Scout gets his Black Carapace at around age 19, it doesn't mean he immediately leaves the 10th Company. I'm sure all the Scout Sergeants are veteran marines who have forsaken the normal progression to train recruits.

Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Psienesis wrote:Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Exactly. They are usually so exceptional that at ten years old, even before the chapter finds them, they can call themselves veterans and warriors.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Exactly. They are usually so exceptional that at ten years old, even before the chapter finds them, they can call themselves veterans and warriors.

I'd take an accomplished special ops Vet experienced in the use of modern tactics and armaments, over the biggest, strongest, and smartest neanderthal everyday of the week.

CpatTom wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Aspirants who make it to the "Scout" stage have not only passed the "Provings", as befits the nature of the homeworld and the Chapter in question, but have undergone implantation of most of the organs and glands that converts a normal human male into a Space Marine. This is not an overnight process.

Most planets from which Space Marine Chapters recruit have some sort of "Circus Maximus" or other contest, which is almost always lethal to the losers, in order to select those who may attempt to become Space Marines. The children selected to begin the training are already battle-trained and battle-experienced. They're certainly not some Boy Scout selected because he helps old ladies across the street and cleaned up a public park.

Exactly. They are usually so exceptional that at ten years old, even before the chapter finds them, they can call themselves veterans and warriors.

I'd take an accomplished special ops Vet experienced in the use of modern tactics and armaments, over the biggest, strongest, and smartest neanderthal everyday of the week.

Except the scouts are more experienced better trained and augmented and chosen much, much, MUCH more selectively.

Also, if you read Sons of Dorn, these ten year old kids who hadn't even been scouted yet were rampaging through experienced knights in full armour.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:...Again, since they are the recruits first going into battle, they will have theoretical knowledge of how to fight. Vets and ST, will have practical experience on how to fight.

I will concede the scouts will have a fighting chance against the vets. However, with the superior training and experience of a sstormtrooper, plus the superior weapons they have, would wipe the floor with the scouts.

#1 Scouts are battle trained, they have much experience, probably the same amount as the Vets for the guard.

#2 The weapons scouts have are superior, not the other way around, Scouts can carry a missile launcher or Heavy Bolter, and their Boltguns are all very lethal.

DeathReaper wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:...Again, since they are the recruits first going into battle, they will have theoretical knowledge of how to fight. Vets and ST, will have practical experience on how to fight.

I will concede the scouts will have a fighting chance against the vets. However, with the superior training and experience of a sstormtrooper, plus the superior weapons they have, would wipe the floor with the scouts.

#1 Scouts are battle trained, they have much experience, probably the same amount as the Vets for the guard.

#2 The weapons scouts have are superior, not the other way around, Scouts can carry a missile launcher or Heavy Bolter, and their Boltguns are all very lethal.

Remember that ST's are the IG's equivalent of SEALs/SAS, except even moreso. These guys have lived and breathed military training since birth, and seen more conflict than most humans could possibly imagine. At the least each guy is as well experienced as most Scout Sergeants, possibly more.

Don't forget that the ST's and Vets generally have access to a greater number and variety of weapons than Scout Squads.

Don't use the Sergeants. Many Scout Sergeants stay at their rank for centuries to teach the new recruits. No IG will top that.
And while the IG Vets and STs *may* have more variety (the scout sergeants get combo-meltas, power fists, power weapons, plasma pistols, combo-plasmas, and power fists. Normal scouts get heavy bolters, normal bolters, sniper rifles, and missile launchers.)

They have about the same number of weapons as a ST, but a heavy bolter and ML are better than a grenade launcher and flamer.

Elector wrote:Don't use the Sergeants. Many Scout Sergeants stay at their rank for centuries to teach the new recruits. No IG will top that.

You never know, there's all sorts of rejuvenat treatments and cybernetic options for extending the life of useful soldiers

And while the IG Vets and STs *may* have more variety (the scout sergeants get combo-meltas, power fists, power weapons, plasma pistols, combo-plasmas, and power fists. Normal scouts get heavy bolters, normal bolters, sniper rifles, and missile launchers.)

They have about the same number of weapons as a ST, but a heavy bolter and ML are better than a grenade launcher and flamer.

Keep in mind that ST's can have 2 plasma/melta weapons plus a PP, Vets can have 3, a heavy weapon, and a PP, and of course stuff like demo charges and meltabombs.

I agree that once Scout Sergeants and Wolf Scouts get brought into the discussion, it skews it on the side of the Astartes. However, While the Scouts do have experience to warrant their induction into the Marines, the experience is mostly in survival and tribal conflicts, not high-tech warfare against denizens of chaos and xenos.

That's fine,

Since this is either 1v1 or 10v10 match between the two sides. Where survival is pretty important.

(And while they may last longer than normal, that's generally for high-ranking officers or the rich. You don't live long in the Imperial Guard without coming away with some scars that could hinder you severely.

So they might be living a bit over a hundred, but a Scout Sergeant could be training recruits for over 3 centuries, possibly more, depending on the Chapter.)

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:...Again, since they are the recruits first going into battle, they will have theoretical knowledge of how to fight. Vets and ST, will have practical experience on how to fight.

I will concede the scouts will have a fighting chance against the vets. However, with the superior training and experience of a sstormtrooper, plus the superior weapons they have, would wipe the floor with the scouts.

#1 Scouts are battle trained, they have much experience, probably the same amount as the Vets for the guard.

#2 The weapons scouts have are superior, not the other way around, Scouts can carry a missile launcher or Heavy Bolter, and their Boltguns are all very lethal.

Remember that ST's are the IG's equivalent of SEALs/SAS, except even moreso. These guys have lived and breathed military training since birth, and seen more conflict than most humans could possibly imagine. At the least each guy is as well experienced as most Scout Sergeants, possibly more.

Don't forget that the ST's and Vets generally have access to a greater number and variety of weapons than Scout Squads.

Scout sergeants are veterans, just like termies. A sergeant usually has several hundred years of experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

acekevin8412 wrote:I agree that once Scout Sergeants and Wolf Scouts get brought into the discussion, it skews it on the side of the Astartes. However, While the Scouts do have experience to warrant their induction into the Marines, the experience is mostly in survival and tribal conflicts, not high-tech warfare against denizens of chaos and xenos.

Except you could remain a scout until ~50-60 years old.

Keep in mind that ST's can have 2 plasma/melta weapons plus a PP, Vets can have 3, a heavy weapon, and a PP, and of course stuff like demo charges and meltabombs.

Irrelevant. A Scout has a camo-cloak and a Stalker-pattern boltgun. The ST's head vaporizes. Battle's over.

This is what Scouts *do*. It is the role they fill for the Astartes. Infiltrate enemy lines, execute clandestine operations, assassinate enemy leaders and important personnel and destroy lines of supply.

Say what you will about the training of ST and IG Vets. The former, especially, is very good... but they're not Space Marines.