Just an issue that came up and wondering what the dakkites feel about it.

Large flyers like valkries and vendettas and may some others to a lesser degree come on board and move 6" on. This means that part of the model is going to be off board.

1. Is this legal by the rules?
2. If it is legal, does this mean in subsequent rounds I can avoid targetability by always keeping the base on the board but hugging the edge and keeping the minimum of a large flyer targettable.

Personally, my feeling is too bad so sad but you have a large model and you have to deal with it and keep it all on board. And perhaps that may mean a forced movement of greater than 6" and thus not the ability to unload all weapon systems.

What do you think?

BTW the "semi-official" ruling from GW was that the base is what counts and only if a weapon system (say a rocket pod on a valkrie) that is currently off board cannot shoot.

Well its either you move greater than 6" to get on the board or you move 6" on and not make it completely on thus destroying your own unit. The choice is yours and yours alone.

Have a check of the FAQ, which confirms that any unit which fails to make it completely onto the board is destroyed

So if you choose to move your model partly onto the board it is destroyed.

What they said. And, those units aren't flyers. They're skimmers on large oval bases.

Edit: I was wrong. You have to move all the way on including the hull.

So as long as the base is completely on the board, the vehicle is also not destroyed?

geordie09 wrote:So as long as the base is completely on the board, the vehicle is also not destroyed?

No.

The base is used for determining if the vehicle is on difficult terrain or models. To determine if it is on the board, it's both the base and the model itself.

Move 6" on and the Valk is destroyed.

Akroma06 wrote:All that matters for things on the flying stand is the base. It's in the FAQ:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Otherwise while part of the vehicle is off the board it is still targetable as long as it is hull. So just because its hanging off the edge doesn't mean it is magicaly out of LOS.

Terrain /= "off the board", youre conflating two very different things there

If any part of your model is off the board when you ve moved on from Reserves, youre destroyed.

So if unit comes from reserve.. it has to be able to get all bases/hull to the board and so units coming from reserve always counting as moving in purpose for firing heavy weapons or rapid fire weapons?

Yes. I believe (don't have my books at work) that it says that in the rules

The rear wings are hull and a vehicle occupies the space of its hull. If that hull is beyond the edge of the playing area, it is not 'on the board' and is destroyed.

It is clear cut and simple.

-cgmckenzie

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:All that matters for things on the flying stand is the base. It's in the FAQ:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Otherwise while part of the vehicle is off the board it is still targetable as long as it is hull. So just because its hanging off the edge doesn't mean it is magicaly out of LOS.

Terrain /= "off the board", youre conflating two very different things there

If any part of your model is off the board when you ve moved on from Reserves, youre destroyed.

I could have sworn I saw it in the faq, and thought I grabbed the wrong one, but since I can't find it I must say I was wrong...

Edited previous post so no one reads it and messes up.

Raza` wrote:So if unit comes from reserve.. it has to be able to get all bases/hull to the board and so units coming from reserve always counting as moving in purpose for firing heavy weapons or rapid fire weapons?

Yes - read the reserve rules, and note you must MOVE to get on the board. You dont just magically appear there.

Iwould say just the base. that is what cou8nts foir large vehicles on flyer bases, eg, Valkeries, Vendettas, Stormravens.

@Akroma

The INAT FaQ, at the top of this page, is what says the whole model must be on.


What would all of youi guys say about Baneblades moving on from reserve. The thing is longer than its 6" move, so it counldn't possibly move on from reserve without cheating or dieing, as you guys seem to suggest that i
f it can't get on, it is dead.


@ Raza

Vehciles count as stationary for Rapid Fire nad Heavy weapons. So a Bolter monuted on a Rhino would always gety to fire 1 shot at 24" or rapid fire. A space marine would have to rapid fire.

Right My point was kinda the opposite. As for the Baneblade. That is apocalypse and alot of apoc stuff breaks the rules. Typically we just houserule it and say that it can hang off the edge but is still targetable by say a blast weapon.

In fact almost all super-heavys/gargantuan creatures are longer than 6". If they start in reserve, they would never be able to be used.

Long story short, a Vendetta will have to move on over 6" from Reserve, meaning it will never be able to fire all 3 lascannons from Reserve.

Deadshot wrote:I would say just the base. That is what counts foir large vehicles on flyer bases, Eg. Valkeries, Vendettas, Stormravens.

@Akroma

The INAT FaQ, at the top of this page, is what says the whole model must be on.
The GW FAQ says this as well
The GW FAQ says this as well
@ Raza

Vehciles count as stationary for Rapid Fire nad Heavy weapons. So a Bolter monuted on a Rhino would always gety to fire 1 shot at 24" or rapid fire. A space marine would have to rapid fire.

Note: I added the yellow/blue above
Note: I added the yellow/blue above

first off, the Hull needs to be on the table or the vehicle is destroyed. So it is not just the base.

For clarity you do not rapid fire a bolter.

Rapid fire is a type of weapon, just like a lascannon is Heavy 1, you wouldn't heavy a Lascannon would you?

Call it 'Double Tap' to reduce confusion.

Could you use yellow next time please? Blue is hard to read.

Deadshot wrote:Iwould say just the base. that is what cou8nts foir large vehicles on flyer bases, eg, Valkeries, Vendettas, Stormravens.

Wrong. The base only counts for determining if it is in difficult terrain/on top of models, assaulting them, or disembarking/embarking models. Otherwise it is treated the same as any other skimmer which still requires that the hull be entirely on the board.

The INAT FaQ, at the top of this page, is what says the whole model must be on.

So does the GW FAQ.

What would all of youi guys say about Baneblades moving on from reserve. The thing is longer than its 6" move, so it counldn't possibly move on from reserve without cheating or dieing, as you guys seem to suggest that if it can't get on, it is dead.

Yup

Deadshot wrote:Could you use yellow next time please? Blue is hard to read.

Blue is easy to read and yellow nearly impossible if you're using the workplace-safe theme.

I suggest Red.

So, if a guy can't fit the Baneblade on the board at all, because of models or impassable terrain, and absolutely had to put it in reserve, would automatically lose it, if you had your way, because it couldn't comeon fully?

Grakmar wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Could you use yellow next time please? Blue is hard to read.

Blue is easy to read and yellow nearly impossible if you're using the workplace-safe theme.

I suggest Red.

Fixed with yellow and blue so everyone can read it.

I do not like to use red, because that is what the mods generally use to add notes and such to peoples posts.

Deadshot wrote:So, if a guy can't fit the Baneblade on the board at all, because of models or impassable terrain, and absolutely had to put it in reserve, would automatically lose it, if you had your way, because it couldn't comeon fully?

Strict answer, yes.

Real answer, no, since playing Apoc requires a fair bit of houserules, just make up a rule that allows it to come on the board, like it must move onto the board at the first available moment. so 6 inches the first turn it arrives, then another 4 or so to make sure it is fully onto the board in its next turn.

Thanks.

DeathReaper wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Could you use yellow next time please? Blue is hard to read.

Blue is easy to read and yellow nearly impossible if you're using the workplace-safe theme.

I suggest Red.

Fixed with yellow.

I do not like to use red, because that is what the mods generally use to add notes and such to peoples posts.

Yeah, now I can't read your text without highlighting it. Perhaps orange would make everyone happy.

Why do we all not just make the text bigger or bopld or something?

Deadshot wrote:So, if a guy can't fit the Baneblade on the board at all, because of models or impassable terrain, and absolutely had to put it in reserve, would automatically lose it, if you had your way, because it couldn't comeon fully?

From the GW FAQ:

Games Workshop wrote:. . .if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play.

So is there a diference between a wing and a tailfin?

Sometimes GW be damned with their rulings.

The only place you may be able to move 6" and be completely on is the corner move on 6 pivot your butt end into the corner, you may than fit. I'm unsure as I've sold off my Vendettas.

The rear wings are structural and important to the flight of the valkyries just as much as the main wings, so I insist on them being hull when I play with or against them(I do run guard on occasion). Calling it a tail allows people to start claiming that it falls into decorative features, which is wrong.

-cgmckenzie

Just play with the Pacific Mauraders. They feel that to not allow a person to play their models would be wrong. "Those vehicles are expensive" was what I was told by the TO when I sited the FAQ. They simply ruled that the base was to be used for all measuring purposes, except firing.
Looking forward to missing the Broadside Bash this year.

This was our reply from our local store manager: ill let you read and weight in.

RE: Large Flying Oval Bases, edge of the board, and moving on from reserves - I had my GW rep pass this question up the corporate ladder (let's face it - sales reps aren't the best source for rulings). He got the following response back. I am not sure what the name attached to this ruling is; he said he sent it to the design team and this is what he got back.
For vehicles with large oval flying bases, use the base to determine whether or not the vehicle is on the table or not. A vehicle on a large flying base can move six inches onto the board so that it can fire all weapons. This should be considered the same as using the base to determine if the model is in terrain or on enemy/friendly models. Note that if the vehicle is turned so that a weapon is hanging off the edge of the board, that weapon should not be allowed to fire.

That's all well and good, but does not matter for this discussion. We don't know what cubicle drone wrote that or even if it wasn't the night janitor. Their call/email system is notoriously inconsistent and should not be brought into rule discussions. The only valid sources for these discussions are the BGB/codexes and FAQ's.

-cgmckenzie

Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

augustus5 wrote:Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

But there are penalties when they move more than 6 inches, and some people think they should be able to move on from reserves and not suffer those penalties.

augustus5 wrote:Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

Some vehicles (examples: the Monolith, Walkers, and most superheavies) can only move 6" max.

rigeld2 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:Vehicles can move more than 6 inches so this should never really be an issue.

But there are penalties when they move more than 6 inches, and some people think they should be able to move on from reserves and not suffer those penalties.

I'll bet the same people that cry about penalties for moving over 6" will be the first ones to claim the save for moving them flat out. My Battlewagons are over 6" long. If I want to fire the Big Shootas I start them on the board. Problem solved.

Millin wrote:This was our reply from our local store manager: ill let you read and weight in.

RE: Large Flying Oval Bases, edge of the board, and moving on from reserves - I had my GW rep pass this question up the corporate ladder (let's face it - sales reps aren't the best source for rulings). He got the following response back. I am not sure what the name attached to this ruling is; he said he sent it to the design team and this is what he got back.
For vehicles with large oval flying bases, use the base to determine whether or not the vehicle is on the table or not. A vehicle on a large flying base can move six inches onto the board so that it can fire all weapons. This should be considered the same as using the base to determine if the model is in terrain or on enemy/friendly models. Note that if the vehicle is turned so that a weapon is hanging off the edge of the board, that weapon should not be allowed to fire.

No offense, but this is about as valid as my little sister telling me how the rule works. He-said/She-said rulings cannot be trusted or confirmed and about 50% of the time, contradict themselves.

puma713 wrote:

Millin wrote:This was our reply from our local store manager: ill let you read and weight in.

RE: Large Flying Oval Bases, edge of the board, and moving on from reserves - I had my GW rep pass this question up the corporate ladder (let's face it - sales reps aren't the best source for rulings). He got the following response back. I am not sure what the name attached to this ruling is; he said he sent it to the design team and this is what he got back.
For vehicles with large oval flying bases, use the base to determine whether or not the vehicle is on the table or not. A vehicle on a large flying base can move six inches onto the board so that it can fire all weapons. This should be considered the same as using the base to determine if the model is in terrain or on enemy/friendly models. Note that if the vehicle is turned so that a weapon is hanging off the edge of the board, that weapon should not be allowed to fire.

No offense, but this is about as valid as my little sister telling me how the rule works. He-said/She-said rulings cannot be trusted or confirmed and about 50% of the time, contradict themselves.

Than Obviously your lil sister is a genious and should be in charge of the next core rulebook and all FAQ's.
Agreed though it's not vallid no matter how much sense it makes.

Although thinking more about it, there are only 2 wings on a plane left and right. The rear section is the Tailfin, so by GW's own FAQ not part of the hull. my .02

No, by GWs own FAQ they didnt even discuss it. They didnt say it WASNT hull, they just didnt even mention it.

It is hull, RAW, because it is not decorative

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, by GWs own FAQ they didnt even discuss it. They didnt say it WASNT hull, they just didnt even mention it.

It is hull, RAW, because it is not decorative

looking back on it more now, why on earth did they bother FAQ'ing it in the first place.
Ah how did I forget that when trying to snag on the FAQ...

I'll go back to my previous I'm faily certain it can come on 6 and pivot to its tail into a corner.

(I can always fall back to the DE thread about aethersails and say but it has Jets?) (LOL)

Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'll go back to my previous I'm faily certain it can come on 6 and pivot to its tail into a corner.

Doesn't work, still need at least 8-9" of movement to pull that off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'll go back to my previous I'm faily certain it can come on 6 and pivot to its tail into a corner.

Doesn't work, still need at least 8-9" of movement to pull that off

DODcrazy wrote:Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

Nope, up to 6" is combat, 6"-12" is cruising, 12+ is flat-out. The speed ranges don't change one bit. The only thing that changes is what weapons a fast vehicle is allowed to fire.

DODcrazy wrote:Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

But a vendetta can then only shoot one TL lascannon, and so many guard players seem to think that this is "unfair", like it being so tall they almost never get cover saves.....

If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

Okay sorry to bring this back into the light, but I did not want to start my own Topic for this when this is already here.

Like previously stated that a wing is part of the hull per GW FAQ:

Q: Are a vehicle’s wings considered to be part of its hull? (p60)
A: Yes

This referring to page 60 for shooting at a vehicle and whether or not a wing can be measured to for being in range or under a template to be hit.

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.
This question is referring to the following statement from the big rule book.
Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move – it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!

This Errata/FAQ overrides the BRB in terms for how to treat a flying skimmer.

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead. (p3)

The reason that I am quoting this from the BRB is that the bold portion comes into effect when you consider a valkyrie or stormraven. That the base IS the area it occupies in terms of reference to other models. Only when it is supplied without a base do you consider the hull instead.

A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size. A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases – this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting. (p11)

The reason that I am quoting this is that no two models can occupy the same place at the same time, but since previously stated a Large Oval Base is considered to be the space that flying skimmers occupy when you take into consideration for disembarking or assaulting a vehicle of this status.

If the vehicle pivots on the spot (to shoot at its attackers for example), move these models out of the way as you shift the vehicle and then place them back into base contact with the vehicle. (p66)

The reason that I am bolding this is that when you wreck a vehicle and it loses its base you just shift the models out of the way and then put them back into base contact after you move them.

If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. If this is not possible (the base might have been glued in place, for example), don’t worry about it. The skimmer’s anti-grav field is obviously still working and an immobilised skimmer will simply remain hovering in place, incapable of any further movement (including turning on the spot); a wrecked one is now a floating, burning wreck. Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above, as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions. (p71)

The reason that I am quoting this is that when you wreck a vehicle it loses its flying base. So when it is lowered you are shifting it from flying to the table. So if something is under it move it back and then place it back into contact with its hull. If you cannot remove the base for any reason treat it as normal as you did before.

Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively become a piece of terrain, counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain, and providing cover. Players must clearly mark that a vehicle has been wrecked in any way they consider suitable. For example, they can turn the vehicle or just its turret upside down (and not sideways to gain extra cover!), place a marker or cotton wool on it to represent smoke and flames, and so on. (p72)

So when you consider a large flying base not being removed you just treat the base as the difficult terrain. If it is removed you just treat the whole thing as normal

The skimmer’s base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both. (p80)

So for people who are talking about assaulting a vehicle if you can make contact with its hull for any reason you are still considered to be in contact with it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

You cannot modify a flying stem on the large base that holds the model.

Zedrenael wrote:

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.
This question is referring to the following statement from the big rule book.
Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move – it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!

This Errata/FAQ overrides the BRB in terms for how to treat a flying skimmer.

It does, but only for this specific situation. It does not impact interaction with the edge of the table, just with terrain and other models.

Zedrenael wrote:

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead. (p3)

The reason that I am quoting this from the BRB is that the bold portion comes into effect when you consider a valkyrie or stormraven. That the base IS the area it occupies in terms of reference to other models. Only when it is supplied without a base do you consider the hull instead.

No, this section is overridden by the more specific rules for Skimmers, which tell us that like all other vehicles, the hull is what matters for all measurement purposes, and the base is ignored, except that models may also assault a skimmer's base if they can't reach the hull.

The FAQs create a couple of additional exceptions for the large oval-based skimmers (terrain, disembarkation and embarkation, and contesting objectives), but they do not create an exception to the rules about a skimmer occupying the area of its hull, as all vehicles do. The rules also define "hull" for the purposes of 40k, as everything apart from gun barrels and purely decorative elements like banners and aerials. The wings and tail of a flying vehicle are clearly not decorative.

Mannahnin wrote:

Zedrenael wrote:

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.
This question is referring to the following statement from the big rule book.
Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either. Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move – it cannot be left hovering in mid-air!

This Errata/FAQ overrides the BRB in terms for how to treat a flying skimmer.

It does, but only for this specific situation. It does not impact interaction with the edge of the table, just with terrain and other models.

Zedrenael wrote:

A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring distances between two models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points. For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the model’s hull or body instead. (p3)

The reason that I am quoting this from the BRB is that the bold portion comes into effect when you consider a valkyrie or stormraven. That the base IS the area it occupies in terms of reference to other models. Only when it is supplied without a base do you consider the hull instead.

No, this section is overridden by the more specific rules for Skimmers, which tell us that like all other vehicles, the hull is what matters for all measurement purposes, and the base is ignored, except that models may also assault a skimmer's base if they can't reach the hull.

The FAQs create a couple of additional exceptions for the large oval-based skimmers (terrain, disembarkation and embarkation, and contesting objectives), but they do not create an exception to the rules about a skimmer occupying the area of its hull, as all vehicles do. The rules also define "hull" for the purposes of 40k, as everything apart from gun barrels and purely decorative elements like banners and aerials. The wings and tail of a flying vehicle are clearly not decorative.

MEASURING DISTANCES
Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent ‘flying bases’ under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer’s hull, with the exceptions of the vehicle’s weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer’s base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both.

It is assumed that a "skimmer" has a transparent 'flying base' not the large oval base. I have no problem measuring anything from the hull that is not an issue. Also another thing a tail fin or twin boom tail fin of a valkyrie is not a wing thus not truly covered in the FAQ, neither is it an extension of the fuselage that is the primary makeup of the hull. So for all intensive purposes it is completely decoration.

Also only when a large vehicle is supplied without a "base" (large oval base) do you use the model's hull instead. It also does not say all vehicles or only says "some".

Zedrenael wrote:

Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

You cannot modify a flying stem on the large base that holds the model.

Citation needed.

Also, tail fins are absolutely not decoration.

You ignore the base for all purposes except for those specifically mentioned in the faq. In the section on vehicles and measuring distances, it says that because not all vehicles come with bases you cannot use the 'measure to the base' rule when dealing with vehicles.

There are specific exceptions to this rule but it only applies to those exceptions.

-cgmckenzie

rigeld2 wrote:

Zedrenael wrote:

Happyjew wrote:If my opponent wants to model his vendettas closer to the ground for cover saves, that fine. After all, you're losing the LOS over all terrain.

You cannot modify a flying stem on the large base that holds the model.

Citation needed.

No, its the other way around. A citation is needed to prove that modification is legal and allowed.
Otherwise it isn't, as the rules tells us what we are allowed to do, not what we are prohibited from doing.

This is the infamous "The rules doesn't say I cannot do it"-argument.

Conversions are fine. Conversions and modifications are allowed/encouraged by the rules. (can't remember the page number atm) That's like saying you're not allowed to use a Tervigon because the model doesn't exist, and converting a Carnifex into one is not allowed.

You need to cite something that says you're not allowed to modify the flying stem.

No, that is simply not how the rules work.

It is really a very fundamental thing, and totally necessary to understand and accept in order to discuss the rules of this game.

Okay, so you're completely unable to modify or convert any mini. Awesome - thanks for that clarification.

While trying to be witty and sarcastic you have actually hit the nail on the head.

Gamesworkshop encourages conversions and modifications to the models. The rules also encourage conversions and modifications to the models(see all the galleries where a non standard pose is followed by "X runs this model as Y" in WD or the BGB). Hell, the ork kodex even has a page dedicated to showing you how to convert orks into even more awesome orks!

-cgmckenzie

p3 second paragraph under Bases, of the BRB allows for non-standard bases to be used with opponents permission. I hope that that is enough of a citation for you.

Steelmage99 wrote:While trying to be witty and sarcastic you have actually hit the nail on the head.

As was said, p3. Now that I've shown where I have permission (with my opponents permission) to modify the base, can you cite where it says I can't modify the large skimmer base?

Zedrenael wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

No, this section is overridden by the more specific rules for Skimmers, which tell us that like all other vehicles, the hull is what matters for all measurement purposes, and the base is ignored, except that models may also assault a skimmer's base if they can't reach the hull.

The FAQs create a couple of additional exceptions for the large oval-based skimmers (terrain, disembarkation and embarkation, and contesting objectives), but they do not create an exception to the rules about a skimmer occupying the area of its hull, as all vehicles do. The rules also define "hull" for the purposes of 40k, as everything apart from gun barrels and purely decorative elements like banners and aerials. The wings and tail of a flying vehicle are clearly not decorative.

MEASURING DISTANCES
Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent ‘flying bases’ under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances are measured to and from the skimmer’s hull, with the exceptions of the vehicle’s weapons, access points and fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer’s base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both.

You're making a causal link between the first sentence and the second sentence. Take "the skimmer's base is effectively ignored" out of context and the meaning doesn't change. That clause doesn't rely on the first sentence. In fact, that clause stands alone. No matter what kind of base the skimmer came with, it is "effectively ignored". Otherwise, the burden of proof is on you to show that they're talking about only the transparent flying base. The first sentence does not prove this. In fact, the first sentence does nothing for the rest of the paragraph. You could remove the first sentence and the paragraph would still mean the same thing.

Zedrenael wrote:It is assumed that a "skimmer" has a transparent 'flying base' not the large oval base.

You're making an assumption here that you're not given permission to make. They point out that skimmers have those bases. There is nothing in the rules above that suggests the rules don't work when they do not have those bases. Just because not all skimmers come with transparent flying bases doesn't mean the rules only pertain to the vehicles that come with them.

Zedrenael wrote: I have no problem measuring anything from the hull that is not an issue. Also another thing a tail fin or twin boom tail fin of a valkyrie is not a wing thus not truly covered in the FAQ, neither is it an extension of the fuselage that is the primary makeup of the hull. So for all intensive purposes it is completely decoration.

Also only when a large vehicle is supplied without a "base" (large oval base) do you use the model's hull instead. It also does not say all vehicles or only says "some".

These two statements are just plainly incorrect. The more specific skimmer rules override the more general vehicle rules. And I would call any part of the vehicle the hull. What gives you permission to dissect the Valkyrie into hull and non-hull pieces? Where are those guidelines so I can follow along?

As above. The Skimmer rules say that their base is always ignored except for certain specified purposes. Vendettas, Valkyries, Stormwavens (etc.) are all Skimmers, and so abide by those rules.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:p3 second paragraph under Bases, of the BRB allows for non-standard bases to be used with opponents permission. I hope that that is enough of a citation for you.

Right. You need your opponent's permission to modify a base. If you make any modification to it, he is within his rights to deny you permission to use that model. Normally this only happens if your modification has given you an noticeable in-game tactical advantage.

To create greater consistency, most large tournaments specifically forbid such modifications in their rules packets, or state that if a model has been modified, and in a game situation it derives an advantage over the stock model from that modification, it will be played as if it were the stock model. Adepticon and NOVA are two major events with such clauses in their rules packs.

The rear wings are structural and important to the flight of the valkyries just as much as the main wings

I find arguing that the tailfin is called rear wing is a little stretch of the rule even when INSISTING they play that way and then back up the claim using the aerodynamics of a plastic model.

I think the vast majority of Players if you ask them how many wings does a Valkyrie have would answer 2.

While I play it that the whole model has to fit on the table with my IA Elysians (7 outflanking skimmers at times) to avoid this type of argument the rule states the hull. The wings are part of the hull, the tail nor tail fins nor tail wings or any other name for it are not wings but are part of the models hull.

edited as already posted

p.s. Just tried to fly (throw) one of my Valks with a Tailfin and another without they both crashed 1.73 metres away so no difference (not really)

So what part(s) consititute "the tail" as opposed to "the hull"? The struts that are attached to the main body of the valkyrie, or the stabilizers, or the tail flaps? The rules say everything is considered hull except the following things: "gun barrels, dozer blades, antenaes, banners and other decorative elements" (quoted from p56 of the BRB). I don't see tail fins or even tail listed as an exception. So unless you think that they fall under the "decorative elements" part of the exception they still count as part of the hull.

If the original rule was that ambiguous that they had to FAQ in the word "wings" why not add other parts of the model into the FAQ. The rule/FAQ should simply state the whole of the model or the whole of the base and there would be no need for interpretation.

Also note just edited my post above as it was ambiguous in itself

I cannot fathom where the confusion lies - GW faqed this and you come in from reserve, you shoot 1 gun, period. Not vague, noe ambiguous, and not debatabe. You don't have to like the rule, but trying to argue clear rules because you don't like them? Really?

The FAQ about the wings on a vehicle is because the rules state that wings are not targetable. This is, of course, referring to models like Sanguinary Guard and other infantry with big, fancy wings, not to vehicles. People who want to make their vendettas less shootable argue that the rule applies to all types of wings, not just those on infantry models.

-cgmckenzie

I think the next time someone argues a rule like this I'm going to have them write their arguement out for me on a peice of paper. I'll have them sign it, and I'll post it here for others to know who to avoid at the game table.

Until a new edtion, Flyers are skimmers and skimmers count the whole model as hull. Just move at cruising speed and be done with it. That is unless you're buddy buddy with the fellows in Pacifc Marauders who feel that the Dollar price of the model means that it should only count the base for the purposes of getting onto the table, as to consider anything else would make the model unplayable. It's a paraphrase, but it is the argument they gave me.

rigeld2 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:While trying to be witty and sarcastic you have actually hit the nail on the head.

As was said, p3. Now that I've shown where I have permission (with my opponents permission) to modify the base, can you cite where it says I can't modify the large skimmer base?

No, and I never had any intention to provide such as restriction......because that is not how the rules work. This has been my point all along.
You asked for a citation that modifying the base was disallowed.....and I pointed out that that is not how the rules work.

It seems like you have now accepted that a permission is needed, not a restriction....and as such we are in agreement.
This has never been about the specific example of modifying the base of a model, but the correct way of reading and presenting the rules.


And, no, we are still not given any permission to modify or convert our models (apart from the base). Most of us choose to overlook this and happily convert, but we aren't actually allowed to do so by the rules.

Well, again, orks are specifically allowed to convert because of the page in the codex that encourages it and tells you how to do it. IG and SM(my only other codexes) apparently don't have such liberties. Puny 'umies...

-cgmckenzie

DODcrazy wrote:Isn't combat speed for skimmers 12 inches? I'm pretty sure it says in the rulebook that further than 12 inches is flat out and treated the same as cruising speed for other vehicles. If so then this shouldn't even matter, just move the vehicle up to whatever you need and you can still shoot.

Combat speed is the same for all vehicles, skimmers included.

FAST vehicles get an upper speed band called "flat out". FAST skimmers get a further boost on top of this (it's just a bigger "flat out" speed band). Non-fast vehicles CANNOT go "flat out", cruising speed is their absolute limit (and some cannot move more than 6" a turn, period - except for special rules).
Fast vehicles also get to fire more weapons (generally) at a given speed band than non-fast ones.

Actually the book covers conversions as well by requiring the use of Citidel models. It doesn't say unaltered so you can reposition them and add anything to them made by Citidel which would still fulfill the requirement. Sadly this does preclude the use of any other company's product by RAW (including, ironically, Forgeworld products) [BRB p3].

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Actually the book covers conversions as well by requiring the use of Citidel models. It doesn't say unaltered so you can reposition them and add anything to them made by Citidel which would still fulfill the requirement. Sadly this does preclude the use of any other company's product by RAW (including, ironically, Forgeworld products) [BRB p3].

You seem to be in the same boat as rigeld2.

This is not how the rules work. In order to do X, you must be given specific permission to do X. Now replace X with "Conversions" and you'll see.

No, in this case, as long as I am using Citidel miniatures and, by extension their parts, I have fulfilled the rule in the book. Now it is up to you to show me where the limitation for converting said model is located.
For example, if I saw off an arm from a space marine and have it pointing in another direction how is this violating the rule? Or, if I take a head from one figure and put it on a different figure what rule have I violated? By rule as long as I am using Citidel models I am allowed to do this (since only the manufacturer is limited by rule).
And for the record it is not that you need a specific rule to give permission it is that you need a general rule to give permission and that a specific rule over rides that instance of the rules. If the rules are silent on an issue then you can not proceed. For instance there is a general rule that says that models may be moved during play. There are specific rules that say how/whether you may move specific types of models.

No, you STILL have it the wrong way round.

Please show a rule allowing you to alter said citadel miniature.

You are going by "it doesnt say I cant", when you have yet to find the general permission to do what you want to do.

I think this has gone too far off topic. If you want to argue about whether conversions are legal/illegal then someone should start another thread.

Here is the crux of the problem:
these guard players, for some reason, think that their skimmer with 3 twin linked las cannons for 130 points should be able to get 3 shots off before being targetted. Ignoring or attempting to reinterpret GW rules and FAQs, they try to justify using a unit incorrectly in an army that is already solid to the core. Seriously guys, do you just want a 300 point "I win" button?

The FAQ is clear, you move on flatout and get your cover save and shoot nothing, you move on and shoot 1 las cannon, or you start on the board and take your chances.

Wait - isn't that how every other army already works?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think this has gone too far off topic. If you want to argue about whether conversions are legal/illegal then someone should start another thread.

Oh....My....God!

We are not discussing whether conversions are illegal or not....just like we weren't discussing whether one was allowed to alter the flying base of a Valkyrie.

We ARE discussing the apparent inability of some people to understand that to do anything, anything at all, in this game we need a specific permission to do so.

Have you ever read any of GW's guides to painting and modeling?

Look at their articles on their website. You have permission to convert.

Look at GW's "How to Paint Citadel Miniatures". You have permission to convert.

Hell, the Painting Citadel Mini's guide even says you can build models from scratch.

Codex: Witch Hunters, pg. 57.

Do a small amount of research before you post. It reflects better on you.

Nocturn wrote:Have you ever read any of GW's guides to painting and modeling?

Look at their articles on their website. You have permission to convert.

Look at GW's "How to Paint Citadel Miniatures". You have permission to convert.

Hell, the Painting Citadel Mini's guide even says you can build models from scratch.

Codex: Witch Hunters, pg. 57.

Do a small amount of research before you post. It reflects better on you.

Except the How to Paint Citadel Miniatures" is not in the Rules.

the articles on their website are not rules.

The Painting Citadel Mini's guide is not the Rules or the BRB either.

The only thing you list that is even a book with rules is Codex: Witch Hunters, but pg. 57 is not rules either.

So, based on your way of thinking...

The models can't be removed from the sprues or painted, right?

It's not rules that say you can do it. It's just implied that you can.

Nocturn wrote:So, based on your way of thinking...

The models can't be removed from the sprues or painted, right?

It's not rules that say you can do it. It's just implied that you can.

All I am saying is that It is not a rules question since there are no rules about converting models.

Not that I would ever do this, but what if I simply glued the model in a nose dive or other way that it is still the unmodified model and it is on an unmodified base? How many people would allow that versus telling the person no way?

I am not sure how this is a you make the call thread. There is no unclear part about the rules.

The whole model must be on table.

The model IS capable of moving wholly onto the table, no it cannot fire all 3 of its weapons if it does so, but it can still physically move on as per the rules. Its not as if its so big it cannot move onto the board, there is no ambiguiity here.

And the cost of the model shouldnt mean anything, that would be as ridiculous as saying "well i spent 90$ for this stompa so your tourney has to let me play it" or "my dark eldar beast pack cost me $214 for 12 models, so you can't shoot me until I charge you because I cost too much to not get to use my abilities."

blaktoof wrote:I am not sure how this is a you make the call thread. There is no unclear part about the rules.

The whole model must be on table.

The model IS capable of moving wholly onto the table, no it cannot fire all 3 of its weapons if it does so, but it can still physically move on as per the rules. Its not as if its so big it cannot move onto the board, there is no ambiguiity here.

And the cost of the model shouldnt mean anything, that would be as ridiculous as saying "well i spent 90$ for this stompa so your tourney has to let me play it" or "my dark eldar beast pack cost me $214 for 12 models, so you can't shoot me until I charge you because I cost too much to not get to use my abilities."

It is in "You make the call" since the whole point of this was a questionable ruling sent down from GW. I too think it is all wet but I didn't want to just rant and rave about it. I wanted the input of Dakkaites on this. I am pleased that the majority feel as I do and that the Reserves rule makes entry of the entire vehicle a black and white necessity. So a DE razorwing can move on 6" and still fire. It is small but before some IG player howls about the inequity, the valkrie/vendetta also has an AV of 12 versus 10. Too bad you have to move more than 6" and the result is you cannot enter from reserves and unload all 3 of your lascannons.

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Think this should clear up the issue, taken from page 6 of version 1.4 FAQ for the rulebook



Oops my bad, read this wrong and posted before reading it through.

That doesn't clear up anything, as "in/on terrain" has nothing to do with being on the board.

I believe I read somewhere that GW have a section of their site that says "GW have the autority to press charges on any who alter the models without direct authorisation", or something. Basically, if you build the Land Raider differently than the instruction manuel syas, GW can press charges, and this includes adding a Hunter Killer from an Ironclad Dread because it is cooler.

I would love to see them try that. They would get annihilated in court. Once you purchase something, you can do whatever you want to it.

You can sell it.
You can modify it.
Hell, you can even set it on fire.

Once you pay for it. It is yours. There is no legal way that they can tell you what you can or cannot do to your own property.

This would only apply to codices and other media, in regards to creating duplicates and distributing them for personal gain.

The section of the site you are referring to specifically refers to the site, not the product.

"All materials on this site, including but not limited to images, artwork, text, audio clips, and video clips, are, unless otherwise stated, owned and controlled by GW and may not be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, transmitted or distributed in any way. Modification of the materials or unauthorized use of the materials for any purpose is a violation of our legal rights. The unauthorized posting of any of our intellectual property, including any images of our products or other artwork on any other website, including, but not limited eBay, Amazon or Craigslist is strictly prohibited."

"4 Ownership of Products
4.1 You will become the owner of the Products when they have been delivered to you.
4.2 Once Products have been delivered to you they will be held at your risk and we will not be liable for their use, loss or destruction."

Some will say that posting that specific text violates GW's legal rights. They are incorrect, as it is legal material, and therefore usable in and out of context.


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http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=community&pIndex=12&aId=9300010&start=13&multiPageMode=true

In case there are any doubts.

Thanks.

First I think that. The whole "wings as decorative" debate was really just for INFANTRY with wings etc, so as not to punish highly flamboyant or decorative modeling jobs. Somehow that. Got transferred to vehicles.

Second.... The. FAQ pretty clearly describes the idea of decorative. Spikey bits, antennas, gun barrels, ( although the housing is still valid target IMHO), crew etc, flags and so on. ANYTHING else is hull. So your valk tail IS HULL since its -not- an antennae or something simaler.

Third, since in numerous entries GW mentions the "edge of the board is the edge of the world" and "if ANY PART" of the model is off the table it's destroyed, well there you go.

Forth, the base thing is only for assault. Since the height of the model would make it impossible for all but c'tan and other tall MC to reach its hull, it was made ok to assault the base in place of reaching the hull in assault. Measuring movement, shooting to and from, etc is all done the same as normal vehicles. To and from its hull, and gun barrels. (when moving shooting at or shooting with respectively)

Fifth, as mentioned easy solutions.
- deploy the darn thing.
- move it on at cruising speed and fire 1 weapon + defensives.
- move it on faster and claim your obscured flat out save.
- move on at combat speed and risk not getting on th table and being called on it thus having your toy airplane removed from the game.
- deep strike it if able.

Every. Other model and vehicle in every other army follows those rules. Monoliths, dark eldar raiders (with sails), land raiders, wave serpents, and so on. Everyone has models that provide a slight disadvantage or advantage in differing situations. A good general identifies this, and compensates, without allowing it to affect his/her mood or battle plan.

Finally.... A mentioned I'm casting vote for if it's not fully on the table it's done. the rules support that argument. It does not support the "m y tailfin structure is decorative so can overhang" all we have is misinterpreted assault rules, and hearsay from a store rep.

PS: changing a models base etc would seem to be conversion work to me, and unless it's a blatant attempt at modeling for advantage, (such as trimming and reducing the length of tailfins on Valks so they have less then 6" length...) I dot have a problem. Just keep in mind you use TLOS either way. Bt I have seen plenty. Of cool valk base conversions that are clearly done as part of a fantastic modeling job, and it may raise or lower it's height a bit. But whatever. Modeling for advantage is usually pretty obvious. Especially when the perpetrator goes "oh this model is taller/shorter/bigger/smaller etc) so it CAN/CANT do/be affected by "X"


Sorry for the wall of text.

Your Fourth point is wrong DarthSpader the base counts as to whether the vehicle is in difficult terrain and for passenger disembarkation/embarkation.


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I was trying to wrack my brain as to where Id seen a FAQ that went against the GW FAQ and finally remembered. Below is the Throne of Skulls FAQ in full, maybe a reason why some people play it 6" on is OK.

"The majority of movement related distances should be resolved using the oval base supplied with the model. Moving a Valkyrie 6" onto a table from reserves allows the base to be completely on the board while having the tail section extend past the table edge by a few inches. This means these vehicles can come on from reserves and fire all their weapons provided they did not move more than 6". This is an exception to the rule that states that a model that cannot completely move onto the table counts as destroyed, and this exception is made to take into consideration the protruding wings and tail sections of the models in question.

Note that the base is also used in relation to enemy models, and as long as the Valkyrie, Vendetta or Storm Raven's base is not within 1" of enemy models at the end of its movement, it is perfectly legal to have enemy or friendly models, terrain, etc. underneath the wing, tail or nose of the vehicle.

For the purposes of contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie, Vendetta, or Storm Raven, also measure to and from the model's base.

However, when determining LOS to, shooting at, or assaulting a Valkyrie, Vendetta or Storm Raven, you should use the model itself, ignoring any vertical height the flying stand provides. This means melta guns can gain their added dice for armor penetration if within 6" horizontally of the model. The same holds true for template weapons. If in doubt, take the model from its flying stand and place it on the table to resolve such disputes."

So all I need to do for my Vendetta conversion is significantly cut back the tail in order to be able to move on 6" and fire all my lascannons?

Bit of a pain, but sure.

Panzerboy26 wrote:So all I need to do for my Vendetta conversion is significantly cut back the tail in order to be able to move on 6" and fire all my lascannons?

Bit of a pain, but sure.

Bit of modeling for advantage, but sure?

Well, I'd refuse to play you, and a TO would probably count the model out... so have fun with your dudes!

How is it modeling for advantage?

There is no Vendetta model. Any model I make will be a conversion. Whose to say that it's tails aren't shorter?

If people are going to rules lawyer that my plane is 'too big' to move 'only' 6 inches onto the table without destroying itself, then I'm sure as heck going to rules lawyer right back.

The vendetta is a variant of the Valkyrie. They use the same hull. Much like the lemur Russ variants. Significantly altering the tail section of said to allow a 6" move IS modeling for advantage.

As for fourth point, yea disembarking and being over dangerous / difficult terrain. Still does not apply to board edge though.

What's the problem with moving 12" and firing one gun on your arrival turn? Its still a 12" moving twin linked Lazcannon. If you want to fire 3 on your first turn, then deploy it on the field. Everyone else who reserves transports or tanks deals with the same issue! Why should imperial skimmers get anything diffrent?

DarthSpader wrote:The vendetta is a variant of the Valkyrie. They use the same hull. Much like the lemur Russ variants. Significantly altering the tail section of said to allow a 6" move IS modeling for advantage.

As for fourth point, yea disembarking and being over dangerous / difficult terrain. Still does not apply to board edge though.

What's the problem with moving 12" and firing one gun on your arrival turn? Its still a 12" moving twin linked Lazcannon. If you want to fire 3 on your first turn, then deploy it on the field. Everyone else who reserves transports or tanks deals with the same issue! Why should imperial skimmers get anything diffrent?

And where are the rules that state that a Vendetta isn't a Vendetta if it's hull is based on a modified Valkyrie hull? Can you show me in a rule book where it specifically lists this situation?

There is no official model for a Vendetta. You can assume it has the same hull as a Vendetta, but that doesn't make it a fact. Until there's an official Vendetta kit released, we'll never know.

Yes, I am aware of how asinine the above sentence is. It's exactly as asinine as the argument that Vendettas can't move onto the table and fire all three lascannons. Realistically, the reason for it is a stupid game-ism that involves multiple FAQ interpretations, and generally isn't something people would spot at all. While that part on the Vendetta is 'technically' correct, it is also 'technically' correct that I can modify my Vendetta any way I choose without it 'technically' being modeling for advantage, because I have no 'official' model to base it from.

I find this whole thread very amusing. It is easy to see who plays with and who plays against a Vendetta. Personally, I am up to four of them but only intend on using them in Apocalypse games (where they are flyers not skimmers) Anyway my two cents are that I have no problem playing against someone who wishes to fire all three lascannons the turn it comes in. Yes I see how the rules would suggest this is not possible, but at the same time I remember this is a game and I am here to have fun. This game has way too many small instances of bad worded rules and somewhat confused interpretations. It is easy to get into a discussion every time your opponent does anything. In the end it leads to little playing and a lot of arguing. This is why GW tells us to roll off or get a TO.

Just my two cents, you guys can resume the argument, and please accept my apology for this interruption.

Panzerboy26 wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:The vendetta is a variant of the Valkyrie. They use the same hull. Much like the lemur Russ variants. Significantly altering the tail section of said to allow a 6" move IS modeling for advantage.

As for fourth point, yea disembarking and being over dangerous / difficult terrain. Still does not apply to board edge though.

What's the problem with moving 12" and firing one gun on your arrival turn? Its still a 12" moving twin linked Lazcannon. If you want to fire 3 on your first turn, then deploy it on the field. Everyone else who reserves transports or tanks deals with the same issue! Why should imperial skimmers get anything diffrent?

And where are the rules that state that a Vendetta isn't a Vendetta if it's hull is based on a modified Valkyrie hull? Can you show me in a rule book where it specifically lists this situation?

There is no official model for a Vendetta. You can assume it has the same hull as a Vendetta, but that doesn't make it a fact. Until there's an official Vendetta kit released, we'll never know.

Yes, I am aware of how asinine the above sentence is. It's exactly as asinine as the argument that Vendettas can't move onto the table and fire all three lascannons. Realistically, the reason for it is a stupid game-ism that involves multiple FAQ interpretations, and generally isn't something people would spot at all. While that part on the Vendetta is 'technically' correct, it is also 'technically' correct that I can modify my Vendetta any way I choose without it 'technically' being modeling for advantage, because I have no 'official' model to base it from.

Actually no, modelling for advantage is whatever the TO deem was such. It may be a Lascannon that's a 1/4" too long or a Razorback turret thats placed with the "hole" up front. I find it as stupid as you do, however you'd be cutting off part of the hull shrinking down the body of a vehicle (making it easier/possible for blast weapons to miss) not to mention the only drawback the Vendetta has the has to move over 6" to get onto the board. It's a drawback deal with it, so what your horribly underpriced overperforming space plane can't shoot all 3 lascannons when it arrives from reserves ..

panzer, check page 56 of your IG codex. second paragraph top right section of the page.

here it is in case you cant find it

"Vendetta Gunship
the valkyrie can be outfitted with a wide variety of weapon payloads, one of which is dubbed the vendetta. multiple lazcannon hardpoints allow the vendetta to function as a dedicated gunship, often formed into roving search-and-destroy wings that hunt enemy battle tank formations."

that pretty much indicates that the vendetta is a valk, simply with diffrent weapons. if the vendetta was a diffrent hull or diffrent vehicle it would have a diffrent entry, not simply a subsection on another vehicle.

changing your model to reduce its length and allow it to move on and fire, outside its above mentioned rules, IS modelling for advantage. the simple truth is this: you can move it on short and risk players calling you on this and the vehicle is either removed or moved on untill its not overhanging the table edge. some players will let it go, others wont. personally i won't and i explain this to enemy opponent brinigng said vehicle BEFORE the game. alternatly just move the thing on or deepstrike it like everyone else.

unless you can cite specific rules in a book that allow you to move your gunship on so it overhangs the board, or otherwise allows models to exist half on and half off the table edge? - and no the oval base ONLY applies when determining if the vehicle is in terrain and required to make a DT check, assaulting the vehicle or disembarking.

if you argue the oval base = hull size, then you measure movements from it, measure weapons to and from it, LOS etc. since the BRB section on vehicles very CLEARLY contradicts that, and actually even explains oval bases... (either BRB or FAQ) then i guess thats not an option.

Good lukc with modelling for advantage

Also there is an OFFICIAL conversion kit (as in, produced by FW, owned by GW) which only contains lascannon. That, plus the quote from the codex, proves your "interpretation' wrong.
It isnt rules lawyering to asking you to move your model all the way onto the board.

I won't ask him to move onto the board. I'll just call a judge over after movement, before shooting to have his model removed.

I won't go that far. I would make it clear he's required to move onto the board fully, then measure the move. If he's overhanging the edge I'll give him a chance to complete the move and bring his unit on, or face the fact it's getting remove from the game. Any further dispute brings over the TO or other authority. If friendly game then point out the rules and hope the argument ends. In friendly games tho good to make your posistion clear before the game.