Not naming sources, but rumor has it that, in the new Tau 'dex being worked on, the Demiurg have a huge possibility of being Mercs, with their own Rock-like Golem MC's. Of course, salt it as needed, as even I am not 100% sure this is true, but I'd thought I'd share. Anyone else have any similar/corroborating/different info?

I can confirm that a unit of little rockmen in space suits and a great big troll beast have been in production. I have no idea where I saw the pic but it's out there.

This sounds fething aweful.

SickSix wrote:This sounds fething aweful.

Possible high-toughness bubble wrap and a CC Monster? That's EXACTLY what Tau need.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

SickSix wrote:This sounds fething aweful.

Possible high-toughness bubble wrap and a CC Monster? That's EXACTLY what Tau need.

Exalted, +1

Sherlock Holmes: It is a failure of logic to formulate an opinion without any evidence... Or something like that. I'd reserve the decision making, until you've got some idea what you are deciding.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

SickSix wrote:This sounds fething aweful.

Possible high-toughness bubble wrap and a CC Monster? That's EXACTLY what Tau need.

Getting a CC monster is awesome. As is getting an MC. So is getting the demiurg. But a giant rock golem? If only they could do it in a way that WASN'T aweful. Maybe a feth-huge kroot creature? Other than knarlocs. Maybe a kroot that ate an avatar

im2randomghgh wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

SickSix wrote:This sounds fething aweful.

Possible high-toughness bubble wrap and a CC Monster? That's EXACTLY what Tau need.

Getting a CC monster is awesome. As is getting an MC. So is getting the demiurg. But a giant rock golem? If only they could do it in a way that WASN'T aweful. Maybe a feth-huge kroot creature? Other than knarlocs. Maybe a kroot that ate an avatar

damn it... now i'm gonna have to mathammer out how many croot it would take to down an avatar>_<

im2randomghgh wrote:
Getting a CC monster is awesome. As is getting an MC. So is getting the demiurg. But a giant rock golem? If only they could do it in a way that WASN'T aweful. Maybe a feth-huge kroot creature? Other than knarlocs. Maybe a kroot that ate an avatar

Yeah, you gotta kill an Avatar. Isn't a proper 5th ed codex if it doesn't contain an Avatar being bitchslapped.

In fact Avatar-killing has become so diluted that the Tau codex will probably contain a passage where Puretide shoots two Avatars at once by splitting fire with his twin Hyper Advanced Super Multitracker Plasma Assault Cannons.

Puretide definitely Quigely-d them with a Broadside. Fits the Shooty Tau Fluff. (although i would love some super advance multi tracker goodness).

subbed for the funz x)

Sounds vaguely plausible, but then so does the rumour that the Tau aren't being worked on at all right now.

Without evidence of some kind (and 'I saw some pics, but won't tell you where.' is not evidence) it remains empty speculation.

peebzguy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

SickSix wrote:This sounds fething aweful.

Possible high-toughness bubble wrap and a CC Monster? That's EXACTLY what Tau need.

Exalted, +1

Is there anything that is the opposite of an exalt? Because I think we need one.
The Tau are supposed to be CC monsters. If we were, we just be some Mary Sue coalition that shoot the crap out of people and then charge in and wipe out the survivors, not unlike a certain group of marines of space.

The Tau are supposed to be a ranged/mobility focused army. To cover our asses, we hired the Kroot as tarpits, bubble wrap and counter-assault units. That's what we should stick with. More Guns, and defensive CC.

acekevin8412 wrote:

peebzguy wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

SickSix wrote:This sounds fething aweful.

Possible high-toughness bubble wrap and a CC Monster? That's EXACTLY what Tau need.

Exalted, +1

Is there anything that is the opposite of an exalt? Because I think we need one.
The Tau are supposed to be CC monsters. If we were, we just be some Mary Sue coalition that shoot the crap out of people and then charge in and wipe out the survivors, not unlike a certain group of marines of space.

The Tau are supposed to be a ranged/mobility focused army. To cover our asses, we hired the Kroot as tarpits, bubble wrap and counter-assault units. That's what we should stick with. More Guns, and defensive CC.

Exactly, so what's wrong with hiring Demiurg MC's to be CC beasts/Tarpits/Distraction so that the Tau can snipe out everyone else?

Assault units in a Tau army, with the exception of Kroot (who aren't that great in assault anyway) are probably not going to be troops choices. The army will still crumble to an assault.

You can stuff 12 fireknives into a 1000 point list. (Granted you have one scoring unit in a devil fish, and a foot slogging firewarrior squad) If they make those suits cheaper think how many shots you can get...

MORE DAKKA!

Brother SRM wrote:Assault units in a Tau army, with the exception of Kroot (who aren't that great in assault anyway) are probably not going to be troops choices. The army will still crumble to an assault.

This I agree with.

@KilroyKiljoy
We differ in our views on how the Tau should be developed. I feel that the Tau codex should be first and fore most, about the Tau, and the Tau are about shooting. I also feel that GW should bring back chapter approved stuff that is good. Not like the current Sisters of Battle, but like the mini-dexes of old. Here, lesser known armies, like Kroot, Elysians and Death Korp before Forge World showed up, and others can be developed.

G00fySmiley wrote:

damn it... now i'm gonna have to mathammer out how many croot it would take to down an avatar>_<

145 kroot attacking without getting the charge would statistically kill an avatar.

acekevin8412 wrote:I also feel that GW should bring back chapter approved stuff that is good.

GW has been doing a bit of that, like with the Eldar Nightspinner release. Adding a wacky xeno mercenary unit to the Tau would be a pretty cool thing to happen out of the blue.

Demiurg are allies of the Tau Empire according to the background and even field a ship in the BFG Tau fleet. So this is plausible.
And there have been other rumours about Demiurg being part of the next Codex. So .... could be happening.

I have no problem with the Demiurg themselves, I just don't think they should be close-combat specialists.

Rock Golem?

Why not just make Krootoxen good?

acekevin8412 wrote:I have no problem with the Demiurg themselves, I just don't think they should be close-combat specialists.

From what i gather, imagine this - Not CC powerhouses, but slow, tough tarpit units that can charge a unit that has been weakened from tau shooting, survive two rounds of combat, and then either by winning or breaking away doing it again the next tau turn. The obvious counter for this tactic is enemies that have mobility to avoid our rocky tarpits, thus allowing the tau to again counter and line up devastating fields of fire. It's a back-and-forth strategy that should be in the codex already but isn't thanks to the faster nature of units in 5th ed codices.

Ya something like a good meat(rock) shield. Maybe not to high weapon skill, but really high toughness so enemies are locked into CC unable to really hurt them, but unable to run away. Like what always seems to happen to my fire warriors.

The Tau do not need a rock golem MC. The Tau need all the FW Kroot units, with good rules, and we need our core army updated! Any CC should be done by Kroot and their various mutations. If they are going to give us space dwarves, they need to a tough close/midrange shooty unit that can survive assaults.

O only know that Matt Ward is possible writer...
And that is enough to me to imagine them as uber-powerful....

I've also heard the Tau are getting Demiurg allies rumor. But, the "Tau are currently not being worked on" rumor looks equally valid. Tau are in a tough spot, developmentally speaking. They're heavily focused on shooting with their big weakness being CC. However, with the improved mobility we've seen in 5th edition (transports everywhere) and with the focus on troops with amazing survivability, the Tau are in trouble. It will take a major overhaul to make them competitive.

juraigamer wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

damn it... now i'm gonna have to mathammer out how many croot it would take to down an avatar>_<

145 kroot attacking without getting the charge would statistically kill an avatar.

Kroot get 2 attacks (without charge), that's 2/3 hits, 1/9 wounds, 1/27 failed saves, 1/81 failed re-rolls (c'mon, what Avatar doesn't have a Farseer nearby with Fortune on him)
So, for every 81 Kroot, you'll put a wound on the Avatar. That's 324 Kroot to kill it!

And, since you can't fit 324 models in BtB or within 2", the Avatar will be just fine.

So, even if you had a unit of infinite Kroot, the Avatar will attack them, win combat, force them to run, and sweep them.

Brother Coa wrote:O only know that Matt Ward is possible writer...
And that is enough to me to imagine them as uber-powerful....

According to rumor, Matt ward is writing everything.

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:O only know that Matt Ward is possible writer...
And that is enough to me to imagine them as uber-powerful....

According to rumor, Matt ward is writing everything.

NOTE: The fallen bird is actually race that Matt Ward done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

Interesting philosophy stuff (to me) that might provide some insight into the concepts behind the Demiurg.

This passage in particular:
"Demiurge as the entity who “fashioned and shaped” the material world. Timaeus describes the Demiurge as unreservedly benevolent, and hence desirous of a world as good as possible. The world remains allegedly imperfect, however, because the Demiurge created the world out of a chaotic, indeterminate non-being."

So, we are going to start finding rumors that the Space Dwarves, and Elfdar created their little Sea Horses to make the world as a good as possible.

tetrisphreak wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:I have no problem with the Demiurg themselves, I just don't think they should be close-combat specialists.

From what i gather, imagine this - Not CC powerhouses, but slow, tough tarpit units that can charge a unit that has been weakened from tau shooting, survive two rounds of combat, and then either by winning or breaking away doing it again the next tau turn. The obvious counter for this tactic is enemies that have mobility to avoid our rocky tarpits, thus allowing the tau to again counter and line up devastating fields of fire. It's a back-and-forth strategy that should be in the codex already but isn't thanks to the faster nature of units in 5th ed codices.

This, I don't disagree with.

SickSix wrote:The Tau do not need a rock golem MC. The Tau need all the FW Kroot units, with good rules, and we need our core army updated! Any CC should be done by Kroot and their various mutations. If they are going to give us space dwarves, they need to a tough close/midrange shooty unit that can survive assaults.

This, I prefer.

CpatTom wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

Interesting philosophy stuff (to me) that might provide some insight into the concepts behind the Demiurg.

This passage in particular:
"Demiurge as the entity who “fashioned and shaped” the material world. Timaeus describes the Demiurge as unreservedly benevolent, and hence desirous of a world as good as possible. The world remains allegedly imperfect, however, because the Demiurge created the world out of a chaotic, indeterminate non-being."

So, we are going to start finding rumors that the Space Dwarves, and Elfdar created their little Sea Horses to make the world as a good as possible.

technically, you can already kill stuff with demiurg on the tt, as long as you don't mind BFG.

This isn't a rumour, but I hope they develop the Psychic potential of the Kroot more. I remember in the Kroot Mercenaries list, the Master Shaper could take minor psychic powers, some of which were pretty good. If I remember correctly, the only things that remain of this now that the Kroot list is defunct, is in the Kroot Mercs Apoc formation, and then its only by giving the Master Shaper a witchblade.

acekevin8412 wrote:This isn't a rumour, but I hope they develop the Psychic potential of the Kroot more. I remember in the Kroot Mercenaries list, the Master Shaper could take minor psychic powers, some of which were pretty good. If I remember correctly, the only things that remain of this now that the Kroot list is defunct, is in the Kroot Mercs Apoc formation, and then its only by giving the Master Shaper a witchblade.

Remember what happened to Humans worlds with psykers on them?

Jeremy Vetock wrote the new book. It's already done and just waiting for its time in the release schedual.

No, I don't remember, but I assume that they got hit with an exterminatus. Either that, or a visit from the black ships.

From ignoring that, isn't the Kroot Homeworld supposed to be deep within Tau territory where it would be safe from predations by the Imperium?

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Jeremy Vetock wrote the new book. It's already done and just waiting for its time in the release schedual.

I've never heard of this man. Plus you spelled 'schedule' wrong. SALT!


Edit - googled his name. He's a warhammer FB writer. Less salt!

tetrisphreak wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Jeremy Vetock wrote the new book. It's already done and just waiting for its time in the release schedual.

I've never heard of this man. Plus you spelled 'schedule' wrong. SALT!


Edit - googled his name. He's a warhammer FB writer. Less salt!

Well genius he happens to be the guy who wrote Skaven, Orcs, and Ogre Kingdoms. Where have you been?

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Jeremy Vetock wrote the new book. It's already done and just waiting for its time in the release schedual.

I've never heard of this man. Plus you spelled 'schedule' wrong. SALT!


Edit - googled his name. He's a warhammer FB writer. Less salt!

Well genius he happens to be the guy who wrote Skaven, Orcs, and Ogre Kingdoms. Where have you been?

I don't play WHFB. I think a new tau book would be awesome, i don't care who writes it as long as it's competitive.

This should be....interesting. WHFB writer writing a 40k codex? And, the least WHFB-ly Army to boot?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:This should be....interesting. WHFB writer writing a 40k codex? And, the least WHFB-ly Army to boot?

Maybe we will get tau mounted on dragons.

nomotog wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:This should be....interesting. WHFB writer writing a 40k codex? And, the least WHFB-ly Army to boot?

Maybe we will get tau mounted on dragons.

Their explanation will probably be something along the lines of: A KROOOOOOOT EATED THE VOID DRAGONZZZ.

@the talk about psykers above, I have always loved the thought of being able to use the Nicassar in battle.

Anyone else?

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Jeremy Vetock wrote the new book. It's already done and just waiting for its time in the release schedual.

Source? I've seen oodles of Tau rumours, but no basis for them outside of educated guesswork and wishlisting.

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:This should be....interesting. WHFB writer writing a 40k codex? And, the least WHFB-ly Army to boot?

Maybe we will get tau mounted on dragons.

Their explanation will probably be something along the lines of: A KROOOOOOOT EATED THE VOID DRAGONZZZ.

@the talk about psykers above, I have always loved the thought of being able to use the Nicassar in battle.

Anyone else?

But aren't Niccassar supposed be non-combatants? Well that didn't stop them from putting the Space Pope on the front lines....

The new MC for the Tau isn't a rock gollem. The Demiurg are rock gollems. Standing next to their models is a huge troll thing that looks like a larger version of the LotR trolls.
I can't remember where I saw the pics but it was a few years ago. It takes about 5 years for something like that to come into being (Chaos Terminaters for example).
There is also concept art by Jes Goodwin. That alone makes me happy. Jes can make anything look cool. But these new Demiurg figures seem like they wont have much conversion opertunities.
The look to be about 6 parts per model: Top half of their head (their collars cover up to their top lip), two legs, two arms and the torso.
I couldn't tell from the pic if the weapons were attached to the hands, nor could I see if they had backpacks.

DeffDred wrote:I can confirm that a unit of little rockmen in space suits and a great big troll beast have been in production. I have no idea where I saw the pic but it's out there.

You mean this pic?



Sorry to disappoint but AFAIK they were custom sculpts by the FFG guys for their own Dark Heresy campaign.

Grakmar wrote:I've also heard the Tau are getting Demiurg allies rumor. But, the "Tau are currently not being worked on" rumor looks equally valid. Tau are in a tough spot, developmentally speaking. They're heavily focused on shooting with their big weakness being CC. However, with the improved mobility we've seen in 5th edition (transports everywhere) and with the focus on troops with amazing survivability, the Tau are in trouble. It will take a major overhaul to make them competitive.

....

I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

A lot more could be done to make things more interesting; by doing things with Ethereals, Vespids, Gun Drones, Skyrays, Krootox and Sniper Drones. That plus adding more drone types and other stuff would make the codex an awesomely fun and interesting book, and would take a lot longer to work out.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

And they would be OP like Grey Knights right?
1 battle-suit is already hard to combat with, get 3 more and you could rech havoc on enemy army.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

And they would be OP like Grey Knights right?
1 battle-suit is already hard to combat with, get 3 more and you could rech havoc on enemy army.

Yes, and we can't have any marine players getting butt-hurt with plasma, now can we?
I agree with most of the points here except for

a) decreasing the points cost of Battlesuits (they're like 50 right? For a 3+ save, 2W and the ability to carry and fire an armory that's pretty fair)
b) allowing the firewarriors to evade charges. Because...well, how? Some sort of tech, right? Because giving a low I unit such as them that ability would be a bit strange.

What do you mean by networked?

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

And they would be OP like Grey Knights right?
1 battle-suit is already hard to combat with, get 3 more and you could rech havoc on enemy army.

Battle suits already come in groups of 3. Except for farsight who was a group of 8.

Networked markerlight allow the firing squad to use the hit.
I agree that the Tau tech would be improving and as a logical next step, all markerlights should be networked.

acekevin8412 wrote:Networked markerlight allow the firing squad to use the hit.
I agree that the Tau tech would be improving and as a logical next step, all markerlights should be networked.

Isn't that what is already in the codex?
You fire a markerlight at a target, and it's +1 to hit against right?

For another unit. Networked can be used by the firing unit to boost its own shooting.

I just thought of this, but one of the persistent rumors I keep hearing about 6th edition is the idea that they are going to take all the side rules (apoc planetstrike citystrike) and make them core to the big rule book. Anyone else see what this means for the codex. It means they are probably going to pull all are side units (manta, tigershark, turrets.) directly into the codex. Wouldn't that be cool. I wonder what stragic assets we would get.

CpatTom wrote:For another unit. Networked can be used by the firing unit to boost its own shooting.

Oh in that case yeah. They should all be networked.
It makes so much more sense that way.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I've also heard the Tau are getting Demiurg allies rumor. But, the "Tau are currently not being worked on" rumor looks equally valid. Tau are in a tough spot, developmentally speaking. They're heavily focused on shooting with their big weakness being CC. However, with the improved mobility we've seen in 5th edition (transports everywhere) and with the focus on troops with amazing survivability, the Tau are in trouble. It will take a major overhaul to make them competitive.

....

I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

A lot more could be done to make things more interesting; by doing things with Ethereals, Vespids, Gun Drones, Skyrays, Krootox and Sniper Drones. That plus adding more drone types and other stuff would make the codex an awesomely fun and interesting book, and would take a lot longer to work out.

I still see Fire Warriors being a liability with these changes. 3" of extra double-tap still doesn't give them much of a punch, especially with BS3. I think they should have the ability to re-roll 1s to hit at range and be rolled back to 9 points. Also, Pulse Carbines should be Assualt 2 IMO.

Great information! A monstrous creature would be perfect for a Tau army to combat a DreadKnight! (or anything else). What about any new vehicles? Anything on like a new kind of troop transport? That would be pretty sweet! Or another HQ choice. Like some super ethereal thats not a special character. IDK just some ideas.

TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:Great information! A monstrous creature would be perfect for a Tau army to combat a DreadKnight! (or anything else). What about any new vehicles? Anything on like a new kind of troop transport? That would be pretty sweet! Or another HQ choice. Like some super ethereal thats not a special character. IDK just some ideas.

Hopefully, the Tau MC won't be as ridiculous looking as the Dreadbaby.
Well, judging by the recent trend of giving armies a flyer like unit (harpy, Stormraven, Valkyrie, Razorwing), it's likely that the tau will get something as well. Maybe some type of dropship, or gunship or something.

The tau already have several flayers.

They have Forgeworld fliers (I assume that's what you meant by 'flayers') but not codex fliers like IG, BA, DE, and GK have.

You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

Brother Coa wrote:You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

No. Just no.

I could see them bringing the XV9 into the Codex, but no close Combat units not named Kroot or Meatshield.

I think what's most important is for them to give several viable builds, the 5th edition codices (IG, GK, DE etc) have done this well so far, and I think it's really important to have builds other than as many suits as possible + railguns.

We also need much more fluff, we don't even know how the Crisis suits (the Tau's signature unit) work!

Brother Coa wrote:You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

That's completely against all Tau fluff. Tau see CC as barbaric and unnessessary, and all their efforts in battle are trying to avoid it. More Kroot stuff like Shamans, Knarloc Riders and Great Knarlocs would work. But a Tau in a Battlesuit woudn't.

As for fliers, Barracuda. Please.

I always envisioned tau having something called "failsafe drones"

Little buggers that would counter charge before assault moves, but after an assault was declared and blow up in their faces. Instead of avoiding melee by moving, tau avoid melee by blowing stuff up in your face.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

And they would be OP like Grey Knights right?
1 battle-suit is already hard to combat with, get 3 more and you could rech havoc on enemy army.

You have to pay something like 60pts for a model with the same punch as a guard vet with a plasma gun. In fact their actual plasma rifle costs as the same amount (20pts). Four suits is thus one, maybe two, veteran squads with max special weapons, all for a fraction of the cost. I' am not saying I haven't wreaked havoc on a MEQ army, but that took a specialised list with 12 suits with plasma and fusion with two ion hammerheads and even then I only won because he was an all jump pack assault army with a very low model count. If he had actually reached my lines and not had to go around a large central clump of cover he would have splatted me. Also, since true line of sight means its difficult to have a suit totally out of cover the pop in, pop out tactic doesnt work; so they're very vulnerable to return fire. Not just ordinance, but sporadic weapons fire and even rapid fire lasguns can pretty easily bring the things down with only two wounds and a 3+ armour (as tough as two space marines standing back to back) when most of their guns are short range.

Trouble with the evade charge thing is that there are other races that would have similar tech and would be just as useful ie eldar guardians and rangers; even Necron warriors. So dropping flashbangs ain't going to do it. Increasing their stopping power or dropping points is the way to go given the limit to the heavy and special weapons that go on the suits.

The whole rock monster thing, just seems out of place putting such a fantasy concept unit in the sci fi army and adding uber assault units would just be a cop out. Demiurg, again iam a bit iffy with the concept. Kroot and Vespid are aliens like the Tau; not space elves, space orks, space dwarfs, space gnomes, space knights, space daemons, space undead, space nuns and I'd rather they kept it that way.

TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: ..........LOL.....Tau on horses???

Well they are robot horses. *Nods to themselves like a wacko*

earlier in this thread, someone said something about FW being able to evade charges.

That's dumb, but something vaguely similar might be okay.

I think giving them a defensive weapon like a small pike-ish thing or discreet mines that give them +1A while being charged would be a good idea (obivously for a few extra points).

This would work because they would not be quite as fragile or easy to charge (getting charged by 10 conscripts and losing sucks) but without giving them the melee boost, discouraging assaults.

This would make them harder to kill in melee without making them an option for assaulting others. Very tau-y.

Also @whoever said pulse carbine should be assault 2, I agree, but it would have to be at an increased points cost.

im2randomghgh wrote:earlier in this thread, someone said something about FW being able to evade charges.

That's dumb, but something vaguely similar might be okay.

I think giving them a defensive weapon like a small pike-ish thing or discreet mines that give them +1A while being charged would be a good idea (obivously for a few extra points).

This would work because they would not be quite as fragile or easy to charge (getting charged by 10 conscripts and losing sucks) but without giving them the melee boost, discouraging assaults.

This would make them harder to kill in melee without making them an option for assaulting others. Very tau-y.

This... wouldn't work. Giving Fire Warriors CA means they suck in close combat, like they always have, and still can't hope to beat any full-sized squad in CC. Something I think might be useful is I4 when making Initaitive tests and Hit and Run, allowing them to retreat out of CC without being swept while still being I2 when hitting.

Also @whoever said pulse carbine should be assault 2, I agree, but it would have to be at an increased points cost.

Not really. If the standard PR becomes Rapid Fire, 30", 15" double-tap range, then a Pulse Carbine would be pretty much redundant next to it. By making it Assault 2 Pinning it becomes a decent enough option for mechanised squads.

TrollPie wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:earlier in this thread, someone said something about FW being able to evade charges.

That's dumb, but something vaguely similar might be okay.

I think giving them a defensive weapon like a small pike-ish thing or discreet mines that give them +1A while being charged would be a good idea (obivously for a few extra points).

This would work because they would not be quite as fragile or easy to charge (getting charged by 10 conscripts and losing sucks) but without giving them the melee boost, discouraging assaults.

This would make them harder to kill in melee without making them an option for assaulting others. Very tau-y.

This... wouldn't work. Giving Fire Warriors CA means they suck in close combat, like they always have, and still can't hope to beat any full-sized squad in CC. Something I think might be useful is I4 when making Initaitive tests and Hit and Run, allowing them to retreat out of CC without being swept while still being I2 when hitting.

Also @whoever said pulse carbine should be assault 2, I agree, but it would have to be at an increased points cost.

Not really. If the standard PR becomes Rapid Fire, 30", 15" double-tap range, then a Pulse Carbine would be pretty much redundant next to it. By making it Assault 2 Pinning it becomes a decent enough option for mechanised squads.

Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Firewarriors are the bulk of my army. I want them to be super better, so I have the bestest stand and shoot army around.

People who say tau shouldn't have units that are good in CC, as well as having good shooting units -- WHAT? Look at every other army out there-

Space wolves - Long fangs/Thunderwolf Cavalry
Eldar - Fire dragons/banshees
Dark Eldar - Warriors/Wyches
Tyranids - Hive guard/entire rest of army

It goes on and on - Yes CC shouldn't be what tau are good at as a general rule, but having one (or God forbid) two dedicated CC units is what makes them a balanced, and competitive codex. It is not OP. It can be as simple as making kroot I5 and adding one other unit that can handle themselves in CC.

I just had to shove that comment into this thread, because i've read some comments in other threads to the effect that tau should in no way be able to participate in the assault phase of the game, and i fully disagree.

Just thought I'd add my opinions,

1) Is increasing the rapid fire range of PR by 3" really going to make that much of a difference? I mean 18" would be sweet but its just not going to happen.
2) Do Fire warriors really need something to get them out of combat? And by this I mean something within the mechanic of the squad. Isnt it the players use of other units that should effectively "be" this mechanic.

3) Also as long as these new demiug guys dont "dilute" the Tau-iness of my Tau army i'm happy, because I took Tau for the cool looking Tau guys. Maybe also cause kroot look cool too but mainly for the tau.
4) I also second the networked marker light, and would love the markerlight to be assualt but it prolly wont be.
5) More options for kroot or new demiug units are good aslong as they are useful.

Increasing rapid fire to 15" has one very important reason - most threat ranges from infantry is 12" - the same as typical rapid fire. that means if you're double-tapping a unit, regardless of whether or not they have faster movement or fleet you are in charge range on their turn (for whatever doesn't die. When you increase double tap range to 15", only units with jump packs or beast charges or fleet will be able to charge you in the following turn, thus giving the fire warriors 2 shooting phases to double-tap a unit that is closing in on them instead of just one. That is where the extra 3" makes a difference, and I think it would fit the tau strategy perfectly.

Or, for CC, we could just give kroot armour without have to pay out the ass for it!

Sound good?

Also, we should be able to take the different kroot subspecies as their own unit. In the fluff there are described as deploying waves of hounds BEFORE the carnivores anyways.

Plus, how sick would it be to throw three dozen kroot hounds at any enemy instead of a huge complex unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:You know what would be realistic: that Tau get new kind of Battlesuit - but for close combat ( liek Dred ).
Imagine an XV8 with 2 plasma swords size of regular Guardsman and Tau are on the horse.

Well they have the XV9 which is designed for close range fire support.

I wouldn't mind either of those ideas - If all we get for CC are kroot then give us the kroot mercenaries at competitive points per model costs. There was a breed with wings, there was a tougher breed that had ork dna (extra attacks per model too i think), there was a sharpshooter breed, and maybe a couple others. The 'nid codex does upgrades with glands and kroot work similarly, i think it would be fine to pay for upgrades if the kroot themselves dropped to 4 or 5 ppm.

This is all wishlisting however...I hate GW's policy that keeps us out of the loop until right before a book is released. It'd be nice to know how long we'll be waiting for this illustrious update. I'm using my tau exclusively now until Necrons are released, then I'll dust off my robots for awhile. It'd be nice to come back to the Greater Good with a powerhouse Codex in the future though.

tetrisphreak wrote:I wouldn't mind either of those ideas - If all we get for CC are kroot then give us the kroot mercenaries at competitive points per model costs. There was a breed with wings, there was a tougher breed that had ork dna (extra attacks per model too i think), there was a sharpshooter breed, and maybe a couple others. The 'nid codex does upgrades with glands and kroot work similarly, i think it would be fine to pay for upgrades if the kroot themselves dropped to 4 or 5 ppm.

This is all wishlisting however...I hate GW's policy that keeps us out of the loop until right before a book is released. It'd be nice to know how long we'll be waiting for this illustrious update. I'm using my tau exclusively now until Necrons are released, then I'll dust off my robots for awhile. It'd be nice to come back to the Greater Good with a powerhouse Codex in the future though.

It almost makes me wish the Fish of Fury hadn't been fixed :(

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

Another wishlist tactic for firewarriors - the "Bushwhack" ability. Anybody who plays Warmachine/Hordes has seen units with this ability - instead of moving, then shooting (which is the norm in both game systems) the bushwhack units are allowed to shoot, then move in reverse order. That fits with the tau fluff, keeps the FW in range for their doubletap shots on approaching enemies (or allows them to fire single shot at full range) then they move backwards into safety immediately after shooting.

I'm full of ideas today.

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

tetrisphreak wrote:Another wishlist tactic for firewarriors - the "Bushwhack" ability. Anybody who plays Warmachine/Hordes has seen units with this ability - instead of moving, then shooting (which is the norm in both game systems) the bushwhack units are allowed to shoot, then move in reverse order. That fits with the tau fluff, keeps the FW in range for their doubletap shots on approaching enemies (or allows them to fire single shot at full range) then they move backwards into safety immediately after shooting.

I'm full of ideas today.

Maybe give them a 6' step back in the assault phase. I think I read a rule that some battle suits can do it, but I cant recall what one.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

So are you suggesting we can add 1 pulse carbine to a unit for free instead of paying per model in the squad to get the defensive grenades bonus?

No. Photon grenades are a specific model upgrade, and must be paid points for. The fluff description of the carbine tells where the photon grenades emit from, it does not say the model counts as having them.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

That pic is not the one I saw. I saw Demiurgs on Sprue next to a completed Demiurg. Though the big beasts do look like the troll thing I saw.

I agree with 15" rapid and IMO Photon Grenades should confer hit and run at +1/2 I

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

The hit and run would be interesting for a fire warrior squad, but how many are left after being in CC?

Kroot/Vespid any other allies dont have to be taken, so no worries there on making your clean pretty Tau Army not pretty.

As much as we read about the Gue'vesa you'd figure there would be an entry in the Codex (not some lil tiny passage in an IA, iirc).

XV9 are supposed to be the close range Tau fire support. Never used them, so can't vouch for their ability, but they have some pretty models (however I think that they have some really limited armory selections, but FW tends to err on the side of caution with their rules)

Wishlist: Stealth upgrades become an XV armory upgrade. Stealth suits drop points, drop auto stealth upgrade, gain wider access to armoury. Maybe 2 battlesuit systems for them, one weapon, one uprgrade. I'd love that.

CpatTom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

The hit and run would be interesting for a fire warrior squad, but how many are left after being in CC?

Kroot/Vespid any other allies dont have to be taken, so no worries there on making your clean pretty Tau Army not pretty.

As much as we read about the Gue'vesa you'd figure there would be an entry in the Codex (not some lil tiny passage in an IA, iirc).

XV9 are supposed to be the close range Tau fire support. Never used them, so can't vouch for their ability, but they have some pretty models (however I think that they have some really limited armory selections, but FW tends to err on the side of caution with their rules)

Wishlist: Stealth upgrades become an XV armory upgrade. Stealth suits drop points, drop auto stealth upgrade, gain wider access to armoury. Maybe 2 battlesuit systems for them, one weapon, one uprgrade. I'd love that.

@The photon grenade thing, I just found out I've been cheating for years Also, now I have to rip the Pulse carbines off my FW because they offer literally nothing.

XV9s are actually very solid. They are the backbone of my apocalypse army. They have a fairly good range of weapons too, with 4 weapons to choose from, each of which is achingly good except for TL BC.

So their options are only slightly less limited than crisis suits, but are so much more powerful it is more than worth it.

CpatTom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

That was my point.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, now I have to rip the Pulse carbines off my FW because they offer literally nothing.

They don't currently, but they might in the new codex. Assuming you've used plastic glue, I would just ask if you can play them as rifles, because you might end up doing more harm than good trying to remove the carbines.

Avatar 720 wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Except pulse carbines already have built-in defensive grenades and pinning. If they were twice as good at shooting without a points increase, they would be way too powerful. Maybe if they lost the grenade launcher, but otherwise it would need a points increase.

Carbines don't have a built in defensive grenade launcher, maybe you're confusing the descriptive text in the codex with its rules?

*Sigh* And this is in the armoury description of the weapon:

Codex Tau Empire Infantry Armoury wrote: The pulse carbine sacrifices range for portability and the chance to mount an underslung photon grenade launcher.

Yes, it has defensive grenades.

Important part bolded for emphasis. A weapon having the 'chance' to get something is not the same as actually having it. Nowhere in the weapon's profile or rules does it say it bestows defensive grenades onto the unit. It'd also make the Photon Grenades upgrade pointless when given Pulse Carbines.

Show me where it says 'A model armed with a Pulse Carbine counts as having Defensive Grenades'.

You want to know where it says that? It doesn't. Thats where.

That was my point.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, now I have to rip the Pulse carbines off my FW because they offer literally nothing.

They don't currently, but they might in the new codex. Assuming you've used plastic glue, I would just ask if you can play them as rifles, because you might end up doing more harm than good trying to remove the carbines.

I was joking about tearing them off, I have more than enough rifle FW to play my games.

How to fix the Tau Codex:

Move Vespids and Pathfinders into Troops

Add XV84/XV81/XV89 to Elites

Move XV25 TO Fast Attack

Add XV9/XV9-1/XV9-4 To Fast Attack

20% price cut on all units in Codex

Farsight Makes Crisis(8/81/84/89) Suits Troops

Shadowsun makes Stealth Suits Troops

Puretide(Broadside Commander?) makes Hazard(9/9-1/9-4) suits troops.

Remove Ethereals.


Codex is fixed, joyous days for all.

The removal of Ethereals is something i'd back. Not only does it make sense game-wise, but also fluff-wise, since there is no reason for them to be in the line of fire at all. Ethereals are negotiators, emissaries and inspirational leaders, they are not Chapter Masters or Inquisitors or any other form of front line leader as well as army commander; the role of front line command should be limited to Shas'El or Shas'O commanders, since Ethereals lack the combat ability, battlefield awareness, veterancy, and defense of trained warriors.

I think that aliens should act in a similar way to CSM daemons, in that they are troops for all purposes except FoC. With the amount of alien species that serve the Greater Good, it's nonsensical to have them battling for FoC places. Currently, it works due to two aliens, but if more are added like the Demiurg, the Nicassar, or Tarellians, then the codex can quickly become cluttered with units vying for spaces.

Either that or have a hard cap of alien units, or have them operate similarly to how Sniper Drones operate, buying several squads that only take up 1 FoC slot. In that case, Vespid should stay Fast Attack (since they are winged creatures), because they don't really suit the role of Troops.

Shifting Stealth Suits to FA makes sense, but only if more suit variants are added to Elites.

Avatar 720, from the rumours that were doing the rounds before, there will be special characters that allow some choices to be taken as a troop section. So, some kind of Demiurg commander that would potentially allow a complete Demiug army.

The problem is now though with the new secrets policy, we have no way of knowing whether they are in the works or not. Oh well, I can always by some Mantic Forgefathers for the time being

Avatar 720 wrote:The removal of Ethereals is something i'd back. Not only does it make sense game-wise, but also fluff-wise, since there is no reason for them to be in the line of fire at all. Ethereals are negotiators, emissaries and inspirational leaders, they are not Chapter Masters or Inquisitors or any other form of front line leader as well as army commander; the role of front line command should be limited to Shas'El or Shas'O commanders, since Ethereals lack the combat ability, battlefield awareness, veterancy, and defense of trained warriors.

I think that aliens should act in a similar way to CSM daemons, in that they are troops for all purposes except FoC. With the amount of alien species that serve the Greater Good, it's nonsensical to have them battling for FoC places. Currently, it works due to two aliens, but if more are added like the Demiurg, the Nicassar, or Tarellians, then the codex can quickly become cluttered with units vying for spaces.

Either that or have a hard cap of alien units, or have them operate similarly to how Sniper Drones operate, buying several squads that only take up 1 FoC slot. In that case, Vespid should stay Fast Attack (since they are winged creatures), because they don't really suit the role of Troops.

Shifting Stealth Suits to FA makes sense, but only if more suit variants are added to Elites.

The elites definitely need more variants/more suits. Maybe the BS4 honour guard FW without Ethereals added to elites?

And new suits. Maybe XV10, a walker?

Just give them the fantasy "Stand and Shoot" chage reaction to assaults (without markerlight support) and you've already gone a long way to making them more viable in 5th. You want to charge me? Fine but you're gonna lose 2 or 3 of your marines. Imagine your opponent's face when he fails to make it into assault and just lost 3 models AND is going to be double tapped again on your turn.

*sigh* I can dream, can't I?

We already have the eternal models. Seems like such a waste not to use them.

Objective markers. Now you have a use for them. Done.

nomotog wrote:We already have the eternal models. Seems like such a waste not to use them.

Since nobody uses them anyway, I doubt it'd make a difference.

CpatTom wrote:Objective markers. Now you have a use for them. Done.

That's a rather lame use for the model I would rather they keep them and just make them usable.

nomotog wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Objective markers. Now you have a use for them. Done.

That's a rather lame use for the model I would rather they keep them and just make them usable.

Better than Nothing. Poor Cypher has no reason to live.



Edit: Avatar, we could prolly add some Knarlocs into Elites if we really wanted to.

I heard something of a large crisis suit called something like an Extinction or Extermination suit as another Heavy Support. Supposedly fluff is that it was designed when fighting against the nids to take out swarms. Has twin linked Ion cannons as opposed to broadside rail guns. Also supposedly large enough to count as a MC. Not sure though.

I suggest that a Shas'o/'el starts off with a very low base cost and can then pick a certain suit: Crisis suit, Stealth suit, possibly a broadside suit?
Perhaps you could also field him on foot, but this allows the BS4 fire warriors as mentioned earlier to be troops choices instead of elites to make it more viable.

I think Ethereals could still find a place in the codex, maybe they could be the ones to make the BS4 fire warriors troops, or they could have a similar system to IG orders to boost the force, or they could call down Air Caste strikes a la Dawn of War.

Just throwing some suggestions out there.

tetrisphreak wrote:People who say tau shouldn't have units that are good in CC, as well as having good shooting units -- WHAT? Look at every other army out there-

Space wolves - Long fangs/Thunderwolf Cavalry
Eldar - Fire dragons/banshees
Dark Eldar - Warriors/Wyches
Tyranids - Hive guard/entire rest of army

It goes on and on - Yes CC shouldn't be what tau are good at as a general rule, but having one (or God forbid) two dedicated CC units is what makes them a balanced, and competitive codex. It is not OP. It can be as simple as making kroot I5 and adding one other unit that can handle themselves in CC.

I just had to shove that comment into this thread, because i've read some comments in other threads to the effect that tau should in no way be able to participate in the assault phase of the game, and i fully disagree.

Tau don't need a balanced, competitive H2H unit, they need a way to have a decent chance of evading charges. That is based on Tau mobility.

Because melee is so decisive compared to shooting, Tau also need improved firepower. That is provided by slightly cheaper suits, slightly longer rapid fire range pulse rifles, and slightly cheaper markerlights.

Brother Coa said the changes would make the army over powered. I think it needs careful thought about the balance of points costs and capabilities to make it fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I've also heard the Tau are getting Demiurg allies rumor. But, the "Tau are currently not being worked on" rumor looks equally valid. Tau are in a tough spot, developmentally speaking. They're heavily focused on shooting with their big weakness being CC. However, with the improved mobility we've seen in 5th edition (transports everywhere) and with the focus on troops with amazing survivability, the Tau are in trouble. It will take a major overhaul to make them competitive.

....

I reckon it can be easily done.

1. Special rule to allow Fire Warriors to attempt to evade charges.
2. Increase rapid fire range of pulse rifle to 15.
3. Battlesuits are made a bit cheaper and can be bought in units of four.
4. Five or 10 points off the cost of the vehicles.
5. Kroot to cost six.
6. All marker lights become networked and Assault.

That would take about 10 minutes to write up and the army would ROCK.

A lot more could be done to make things more interesting; by doing things with Ethereals, Vespids, Gun Drones, Skyrays, Krootox and Sniper Drones. That plus adding more drone types and other stuff would make the codex an awesomely fun and interesting book, and would take a lot longer to work out.

I still see Fire Warriors being a liability with these changes. 3" of extra double-tap still doesn't give them much of a punch, especially with BS3. I think they should have the ability to re-roll 1s to hit at range and be rolled back to 9 points. Also, Pulse Carbines should be Assualt 2 IMO.

The changes also deliver more, cheaper markerlights, and that makes the difference to the BS.

I personally think that Markerlights should be able to target any unit within their range and LoS. It doesn't make much sense of them to follow the regular shooting rules, since they're only for marking potential targets.

Having that 8-man Pathfinder unit target 4 squads with two markerlights each allows for minor increases against multiple squads, instead of what you normally get, which is sometimes an overabundance of markerlight hits against a single squad.

With BS3, and markerlights not being affected by markerlights when rolling to hit, it means that you're not guaranteed to hit all 4 squads with both markerlights, so the more units you want to target, the less chance you have of successfully lighting them up, but it makes them a lot better than simply picking one squad and finding out that you've got markerlights leftover that you can't or didn't use.

It also allows you to boost a wide variety of units. If a tank needs destroying, sending 3 markerlights at it to take away any cover saves and/or increase the BS of the firer, and use the remaining few markerlights on infantry that the crisis suits or FWs could do with targeting; currently, if the tank needs to go down, then you're stuck shoving a potential of 8 markerlight hits onto a model that really doesn't need that many at all.

They could easily just give them defensive grenades across the army. to help with CC then add some more mobility or something.

Defensive Grenades aren't all that great as Tau, since anything coming your way usually has at least 2 attacks basic anyway (1 from the profile, 1 from two CCWs), and since they're likely to be charging into cover, will lose that extra attack for charging by using frag grenades, rendering your defensive grenades pointless.

10 Marines charging you without the extra attack is 21 attacks, 14 hits, 9.338 wounds and 4.669 dead FWs, or 5. Remaining 5 FWs (assuming a unit of 10) get 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 0.8325 wounds and 0.2772225 dead marines, or 0.

We still lose that combat by a hell of a lot, and if anything, we want that to happen, since it means the marines are out of combat in our turn, and free to shoot. Defensive grenades have the possibility to prolong a combat by an extra turn (because it shouldn't take much longer than that unless you charged the FWs with another unit of FWs), which means the marines are out of combat in their own turn, and free to act.

Avatar 720 wrote:and since they're likely to be charging into cover, will lose that extra attack for charging by using frag grenades, rendering your defensive grenades pointless.

That is not a rule. Frag grenades allow you to strike at Initiative when charging into cover, nowhere does it stipulate that you lose the bonus CCW attack for doing so.

Please re-read where I said this:

...will lose that extra attack for charging...

EDIT: Re-read the rules, thought you lost the charging attack.

Even so, the post still stands, since I didn't mention losing the bonus CCW attack.

Yeah I read yours too quickly before responding. Apologies there. Either way frag grenades don't make you sacrifice any attacks, they're good jams.

I agree with the bottom of that post, btw, tau lose combat just by being in combat...even if you don't get wiped out (which is a lost KP, scoring unit, etc) then you're locked in CC with the offending unit, and can't shoot at him during your own turn...allowing that unit (dratted beast squads and thunderwolves) to run rampant through your army.

TWC can be dealt with by moving to the upper floors of terrain (if there are any) since Cavalry models can't ascend floors.

As can beast squads...you know as obvious and stupid (read: i should have figured it out myself lol) an answer that is for those two units, in tactical application it has eluded me to do exactly that.

That is also true for any other army who wants to avoid a beast squad.

In other words it does nothing to balance Tau specifically.

King Pariah wrote:I heard something of a large crisis suit called something like an Extinction or Extermination suit as another Heavy Support. Supposedly fluff is that it was designed when fighting against the nids to take out swarms. Has twin linked Ion cannons as opposed to broadside rail guns. Also supposedly large enough to count as a MC. Not sure though.

TL Ion Cannon would kind of suck. With two Ion Cannon and for the price of a broadside (If they have comparable stats and aren't MC) that would be alright.

I think that Ethereals can be keepers, but they need some serious changes. Perhaps giving them the ability to do something equivalent to the Guard's orders or some other non-psychic psychic power.

Avatar 720 wrote:I personally think that Markerlights should be able to target any unit within their range and LoS. It doesn't make much sense of them to follow the regular shooting rules, since they're only for marking potential targets.

Having that 8-man Pathfinder unit target 4 squads with two markerlights each allows for minor increases against multiple squads, instead of what you normally get, which is sometimes an overabundance of markerlight hits against a single squad.

With BS3, and markerlights not being affected by markerlights when rolling to hit, it means that you're not guaranteed to hit all 4 squads with both markerlights, so the more units you want to target, the less chance you have of successfully lighting them up, but it makes them a lot better than simply picking one squad and finding out that you've got markerlights leftover that you can't or didn't use.

It also allows you to boost a wide variety of units. If a tank needs destroying, sending 3 markerlights at it to take away any cover saves and/or increase the BS of the firer, and use the remaining few markerlights on infantry that the crisis suits or FWs could do with targeting; currently, if the tank needs to go down, then you're stuck shoving a potential of 8 markerlight hits onto a model that really doesn't need that many at all.

That's an interesting proposal that would greatly improve the utility of Pathfinders. Instead of being able to light up one target per team, it gives the potential to get 4 hits on 4 separate targets! It can also be easily hand-waved in the fluff by saying that the Pathfinders all have target-locks.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:I personally think that Markerlights should be able to target any unit within their range and LoS. It doesn't make much sense of them to follow the regular shooting rules, since they're only for marking potential targets.

Having that 8-man Pathfinder unit target 4 squads with two markerlights each allows for minor increases against multiple squads, instead of what you normally get, which is sometimes an overabundance of markerlight hits against a single squad.

With BS3, and markerlights not being affected by markerlights when rolling to hit, it means that you're not guaranteed to hit all 4 squads with both markerlights, so the more units you want to target, the less chance you have of successfully lighting them up, but it makes them a lot better than simply picking one squad and finding out that you've got markerlights leftover that you can't or didn't use.

It also allows you to boost a wide variety of units. If a tank needs destroying, sending 3 markerlights at it to take away any cover saves and/or increase the BS of the firer, and use the remaining few markerlights on infantry that the crisis suits or FWs could do with targeting; currently, if the tank needs to go down, then you're stuck shoving a potential of 8 markerlight hits onto a model that really doesn't need that many at all.

That's an interesting proposal that would greatly improve the utility of Pathfinders. Instead of being able to light up one target per team, it gives the potential to get 4 hits on 4 separate targets! It can also be easily hand-waved in the fluff by saying that the Pathfinders all have target-locks.

You can actually give them TL I think. And multi-trackers, so they could markerlight AND shoot.

Unless you're in 18", which you shouldn't be, the multi-tracker is useless. And the TL comes with the Rail Rifle.

acekevin8412 wrote:Unless you're in 18", which you shouldn't be, the multi-tracker is useless. And the TL comes with the Rail Rifle.

The TL is also in the armoury as an option with it's own points cost. And I agree the Multitracker sucks.

Without RRs, though, the TL is only available to Pathfinder Team Leaders.

I think that I'd like not an assault unit, but a defensive unit- one to get into combat and stay there. Demiurg would suit that.

Tau should have access to a potent CC unit, just something to keep in the back field to make the idea of just rushing up on the tau not necessarily the best idea.

Just make it so you can't spam them and make an army out of them. Perfectly ok. Sometimes you need edge around the fluff just a bit so that the actual game is playable.

Will they fight with pickaxes? Drills?

Jayden63 wrote:Tau should have access to a potent CC unit, just something to keep in the back field to make the idea of just rushing up on the tau not necessarily the best idea.

Just make it so you can't spam them and make an army out of them. Perfectly ok. Sometimes you need edge around the fluff just a bit so that the actual game is playable.

0-1 CC Monster. They could get that through simply giving farsight a hefty upgrade. It would be good. Not something to make CC a bad idea for an army across the board, just something to dissuade them from charging up the centre of the board. Make them get creative and flank like those damn genestealers keep doing.

There is not much that seems to be 0-1 any more in the newer 40k dexes. I do agree that a counter assault unit would be nice...

Lightcavalier wrote:There is not much that seems to be 0-1 any more in the newer 40k dexes. I do agree that a counter assault unit would be nice...

Well if you have Farsight in your army almost everything is 0-1

Tau don't need a CC Monster.

Tau need drones carrying fail-safe detonators - anyone who assaults the Tau better kill them to a man in the first round, because when the Tau break, the bomb goes off and the Tau get away clean.

Jefffar wrote:Tau don't need a CC Monster.

Tau need drones carrying fail-safe detonators - anyone who assaults the Tau better kill them to a man in the first round, because when the Tau break, the bomb goes off and the Tau get away clean.

Or make the drones remote-detonate-able. On any turn you can declare that you are going to sacrifice your drone unit and every enemy model in B2B with a drone from said unit suffers a str 6 ap5 hit, unless they are a vehicle, in which case they roll a D6 with a five or six being a glancing hit.

Naw, that would end up being used as an offensive weapon. The Tau avoid contact, not try to pursue it.

Also failsafe detonators drop a large blast, Setting it off before the Tau unit gets it's chance to withdraw is pretty counter productive.

Tau need Stand and Shoot

You could have a way of avoiding assualt, something like:

We Shall Cover Your Retreat!:
The Shas'Ui makes the decision to flee, but several brave members of his squad volunteer to cover the retreat to ensure that they escape unharmed.

If a Fire Warrior squad numbering 4 or more models (including a Shas'Ui) with this special rule is ever the target of an assault, they may elect to avoid assault by passing a leadership test; if the test is passed, then the squad sacrifices D3 Fire Warriors who stay back to hold the assaulting enemy off and cover the retreat of their comrades. Remove these models as casaluties and immediately move 6" directly away from the assaulting unit. All terrain counts as open for the purposes of this move.

If any model from the retreating unit would come within 1" of an enemy model, angle the retreat to avoid collision by the minimum amount necessary. If no retreat is possible without coming within 1" of an enemy model, then this rule cannot be used, and the assault happens as normal.

If the leadership test is failed, then assault happens as normal.



Or you could, instead of making it a special rule, have a list of possible Tau Assault Reactions, similar to how WHFB has Charge Reactions. Hold would simply be taking the assault as normal, the Stand and Shoot reaction people have suggested is self-explanitory, and then a Flee reaction could be one of two things:
Without a Shas'Ui - Flee - Essentially a fall back move. Both you and your opponent roll and if you roll higher then you get away, however you do not auto-rally, and can continue to simply flee off the board.
With a Shas'Ui - Flee or WSCYR as detailed above - Simply choose which one you'd like to use.

Avatar 720 wrote:You could have a way of avoiding assualt, something like:

We Shall Cover Your Retreat!:
The Shas'Ui makes the decision to flee, but several brave members of his squad volunteer to cover the retreat to ensure that they escape unharmed.

If a Fire Warrior squad numbering 4 or more models (including a Shas'Ui) with this special rule is ever the target of an assault, they may elect to avoid assault by passing a leadership test; if the test is passed, then the squad sacrifices D3 Fire Warriors who stay back to hold the assaulting enemy off and cover the retreat of their comrades. Remove these models as casaluties and immediately move 6" directly away from the assaulting unit. All terrain counts as open for the purposes of this move.

If any model from the retreating unit would come within 1" of an enemy model, angle the retreat to avoid collision by the minimum amount necessary. If no retreat is possible without coming within 1" of an enemy model, then this rule cannot be used, and the assault happens as normal.

If the leadership test is failed, then assault happens as normal.



Or you could, instead of making it a special rule, have a list of possible Tau Assault Reactions, similar to how WHFB has Charge Reactions. Hold would simply be taking the assault as normal, the Stand and Shoot reaction people have suggested is self-explanitory, and then a Flee reaction could be one of two things:
Without a Shas'Ui - Flee - Essentially a fall back move. Both you and your opponent roll and if you roll higher then you get away, however you do not auto-rally, and can continue to simply flee off the board.
With a Shas'Ui - Flee or WSCYR as detailed above - Simply choose which one you'd like to use.

Or the get to use their carbines more actively, and it is essentially used in CC. Meaning Str5 AP5 attack. Idk, too good?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:You could have a way of avoiding assualt, something like:

We Shall Cover Your Retreat!:
The Shas'Ui makes the decision to flee, but several brave members of his squad volunteer to cover the retreat to ensure that they escape unharmed.

If a Fire Warrior squad numbering 4 or more models (including a Shas'Ui) with this special rule is ever the target of an assault, they may elect to avoid assault by passing a leadership test; if the test is passed, then the squad sacrifices D3 Fire Warriors who stay back to hold the assaulting enemy off and cover the retreat of their comrades. Remove these models as casaluties and immediately move 6" directly away from the assaulting unit. All terrain counts as open for the purposes of this move.

If any model from the retreating unit would come within 1" of an enemy model, angle the retreat to avoid collision by the minimum amount necessary. If no retreat is possible without coming within 1" of an enemy model, then this rule cannot be used, and the assault happens as normal.

If the leadership test is failed, then assault happens as normal.



Or you could, instead of making it a special rule, have a list of possible Tau Assault Reactions, similar to how WHFB has Charge Reactions. Hold would simply be taking the assault as normal, the Stand and Shoot reaction people have suggested is self-explanitory, and then a Flee reaction could be one of two things:
Without a Shas'Ui - Flee - Essentially a fall back move. Both you and your opponent roll and if you roll higher then you get away, however you do not auto-rally, and can continue to simply flee off the board.
With a Shas'Ui - Flee or WSCYR as detailed above - Simply choose which one you'd like to use.

Or the get to use their carbines more actively, and it is essentially used in CC. Meaning Str5 AP5 attack. Idk, too good?

Maybe on a roll, but not always. Their lower Toughness and Initiative do well to balance that out, but not by enough.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:You could have a way of avoiding assualt, something like:

We Shall Cover Your Retreat!:
The Shas'Ui makes the decision to flee, but several brave members of his squad volunteer to cover the retreat to ensure that they escape unharmed.

If a Fire Warrior squad numbering 4 or more models (including a Shas'Ui) with this special rule is ever the target of an assault, they may elect to avoid assault by passing a leadership test; if the test is passed, then the squad sacrifices D3 Fire Warriors who stay back to hold the assaulting enemy off and cover the retreat of their comrades. Remove these models as casaluties and immediately move 6" directly away from the assaulting unit. All terrain counts as open for the purposes of this move.

If any model from the retreating unit would come within 1" of an enemy model, angle the retreat to avoid collision by the minimum amount necessary. If no retreat is possible without coming within 1" of an enemy model, then this rule cannot be used, and the assault happens as normal.

If the leadership test is failed, then assault happens as normal.



Or you could, instead of making it a special rule, have a list of possible Tau Assault Reactions, similar to how WHFB has Charge Reactions. Hold would simply be taking the assault as normal, the Stand and Shoot reaction people have suggested is self-explanitory, and then a Flee reaction could be one of two things:
Without a Shas'Ui - Flee - Essentially a fall back move. Both you and your opponent roll and if you roll higher then you get away, however you do not auto-rally, and can continue to simply flee off the board.
With a Shas'Ui - Flee or WSCYR as detailed above - Simply choose which one you'd like to use.

Or the get to use their carbines more actively, and it is essentially used in CC. Meaning Str5 AP5 attack. Idk, too good?

Maybe on a roll, but not always. Their lower Toughness and Initiative do well to balance that out, but not by enough.

Yeah that makes more sense. 4+ they get to shoot?

Avatar 720 wrote:
Or you could, instead of making it a special rule, have a list of possible Tau Assault Reactions, similar to how WHFB has Charge Reactions. Hold would simply be taking the assault as normal, the Stand and Shoot reaction people have suggested is self-explanatory.

In a Stand and Shoot reaction, do they shoot as normal therefore get to rapid fire? Because while that wouldn't do much to a space marine squad it could do a lot of damage to an ork or tyranid unit that tried to assault them.

Stand and Shoot allows you to fire your weapon, i believe with normal rates of fire applying (so rapid fire would be allowed), but with a -1 BS. I forget what happens in close combat to a unit that stands and shoots, if they forgo their attacks that round, or what. But rapid firing on the Tau turn, plus an additional rapid fire (albeit at lower BS) on the enemy's turn, would make a nice dent even in a squad of MEQ's, and the best part is, sometimes you'll kill enough models to prevent the unit from having range to assault.

tetrisphreak wrote:Stand and Shoot allows you to fire your weapon, i believe with normal rates of fire applying (so rapid fire would be allowed), but with a -1 BS. I forget what happens in close combat to a unit that stands and shoots, if they forgo their attacks that round, or what. But rapid firing on the Tau turn, plus an additional rapid fire (albeit at lower BS) on the enemy's turn, would make a nice dent even in a squad of MEQ's, and the best part is, sometimes you'll kill enough models to prevent the unit from having range to assault.

Which would mean third double tap!

I'm glad you all like my idea.

A balancer would be to do stand and shoot in place of a close combat attack. In fantasy, the defenders still get to swing in close combat but we're dealing with weapons that are stronger in strength...

Bearing in mind that in fantasy, you often get a lot more shots for S&S, I don't think replacing CC would be all that amazing.

Since S&S is done at -1 to hit, FWs will be hitting on 5s, with no markerlight benefit due to the enemy moving too fast and unpredictably. 10 FWs without RF will be seeing 10 shots, with about 3.33 hits and about 2.22 wounds against T4, or 2.77 against T3 or less. If the opponent gets armour saves, it'll mean 0.37074 T4 with a 2+, 0.73926 dead T4 with a 3+, or 1.11 dead T4 with a 4+; or against T3, 0.46259 dead T3 2+ models, 0.92241 dead T3 3+ models, or 1.385 dead T3 4+ models.

If you get cover saves, then you can factor in those too, but the majority would likely just use the statistics for T3 or T4 4+ models. As you can see, the results are far from horrifically OP; MEQs come out of it with just 0.7 dead marines, or 1 dead marine, and T3 are no worse; both T3 and T4 3+ and 4+ models round to 1 casualty, and T3 and T4 2+ models both round to 0. If anything, that stand and shoot was hilariously ineffectual unless you're shooting at something that won't get a save.

For Rapid Fire, you can effectively just double the results, and it turns out to be significantly more effective, but perhaps too much so against models that will not get a save; T4 without a save suffer 4 casualties, whilst T3 without a save suffer 6; you can impose a further BS modifier, but chances are that it'll just make them ineffectual.

Rapid-Firing at -2 gives the exact same results as single shots at -1 to hit, since the wounds stem from the number of hits, and the number of hits is identical.

Conclusion:
Single shot S&S at -1 to hit gives you 0 dead T3/4 models if they have a 2+ save, 1 dead T3/4 model if it has a 3+ or 4+ save, 2 dead T4 models without a save, and 3 dead T3 models without a save.
Rapid fire S&S at -1 to hit doubles the result, giving 1 dead T3/4 2+ model, 2 dead T3/4 3+/4+ models, but 4 dead T4 models without a save, and 6 dead T3 models without a save.

There is little you can do to find middle ground here, so it'd be one or the other.

Avatar 720 wrote:Bearing in mind that in fantasy, you often get a lot more shots for S&S, I don't think replacing CC would be all that amazing.

Since S&S is done at -1 to hit, FWs will be hitting on 5s, with no markerlight benefit due to the enemy moving too fast and unpredictably. 10 FWs without RF will be seeing 10 shots, with about 3.33 hits and about 2.22 wounds against T4, or 2.77 against T3 or less. If the opponent gets armour saves, it'll mean 0.37074 T4 with a 2+, 0.73926 dead T4 with a 3+, or 1.11 dead T4 with a 4+; or against T3, 0.46259 dead T3 2+ models, 0.92241 dead T3 3+ models, or 1.385 dead T3 4+ models.

If you get cover saves, then you can factor in those too, but the majority would likely just use the statistics for T3 or T4 4+ models. As you can see, the results are far from horrifically OP; MEQs come out of it with just 0.7 dead marines, or 1 dead marine, and T3 are no worse; both T3 and T4 3+ and 4+ models round to 1 casualty, and T3 and T4 2+ models both round to 0. If anything, that stand and shoot was hilariously ineffectual unless you're shooting at something that won't get a save.

For Rapid Fire, you can effectively just double the results, and it turns out to be significantly more effective, but perhaps too much so against models that will not get a save; T4 without a save suffer 4 casualties, whilst T3 without a save suffer 6; you can impose a further BS modifier, but chances are that it'll just make them ineffectual.

Rapid-Firing at -2 gives the exact same results as single shots at -1 to hit, since the wounds stem from the number of hits, and the number of hits is identical.

Conclusion:
Single shot S&S at -1 to hit gives you 0 dead T3/4 models if they have a 2+ save, 1 dead T3/4 model if it has a 3+ or 4+ save, 2 dead T4 models without a save, and 3 dead T3 models without a save.
Rapid fire S&S at -1 to hit doubles the result, giving 1 dead T3/4 2+ model, 2 dead T3/4 3+/4+ models, but 4 dead T4 models without a save, and 6 dead T3 models without a save.

There is little you can do to find middle ground here, so it'd be one or the other.

Or no accuracy decrease but only one shot per model, and maybe have to pay +1p per model for a targetting thing that grants this?

With no accuracy decrease:

10 shots, 5 hits, 3.335 wounds against T4, 4.165 against T3, 0.556945 dead T4 2+ models, 1.11 dead T4 3+ models, 1.6675 dead T4 4+ models, 0.695555 dead T3 2+ models, 1.386945 dead T3 3+ models, 2.08 dead T3 4+ models.

Against T4 with no save - 3.335 dead, against T3 with no save, 4.165 dead.

There is no increase in effectiveness against 3+ models, who all suffer 1 casualty, but there is enough increase against 2+ models to force 1 casualty each after substantial rounding, and an increase against 4+ T3 models, and 4+ T4 models (after substantial rounding) who suffer 1 casualty apiece.

T4 and T3 units with no saves suffer 3 and 4 dead models respectively.

MEQs therefore suffer no real change whether it be with no modifier or a -1 modifier, TEQs suffer a minor increase that is large enough to round up instead of down, the only large change seems to be against units with a 4+ or no save.

This brings me back to the point, why spend a minimum 6 points to improve my Fire warriors when I could be using that 6 points to put a down payment on something useful. Maybe if I have 6 points left over (but I would probably get some black sun filters instead, you never know when you are playing DoW.

I'm just saying it would be the easiest way to make FWs relevant without crazy special rules that require you to go outside and check what phase the moon is in. Just a simple response to an assault. You could even make it frontal assaults only (kind of makes sense) and no reduction to BS if the 'Ui in the unit has some sort of cheap wargear. They'll still crumble in close combat, they'll still rely on shooting but at least this way they have a chance.

Edit: actually, thinking about how most 5th edition units have had their points reduced, you could probably argue for FWs to remain the same cost...

In all honesty, charge reactions would be the same as WHFB has, and they only take a second to decide; it's not exactly rocket science.

EDIT: Or Astronomy, to use your example.

That was my point.

It seems that some of the special rules that are coming out are a bit out there. Stand and Shoot is pretty mundane compared to rolling with blood claws...

Well how about giving them a 'flee' reaction as well? Fits the fluff, run in the face of danger only to regroup and rapid fire again....

Choice you say.... hmmmm... I like it. Man, would that irk some stabby-marine players to no end.

Sure. Balance it all by making it contingent upon a leadership check, regardless of which you choose. Makes a Ld 8 Shas'ui a worthwhile upgrade in my opinon. what say you?

Minuses you say? Give a bonus, but add a penalty you say? All in the name of balance.

What sort of crap is that?

Seriously. Don't any of you remember the total ass whooping that was Fear the Darkness. Doesn't anyone realize the damage free heavy bolters do to our guys. Where is the balance now? Screw that, make Firewarriors hit stupidly hard. Give us a HTH threat that will make an assault termi wet his pants and think twice about advancing into our lines.

Balance comes from point costs, not book work, not on random dice rolls. Why do the Tau have to be the play nice guys. You all do realize the massive amount of built in advantages many of the other races enjoy over the tau don't you? Lets let all of them be feared for a change instead of the universes whipping boy.

The Tau have one phase per game turn in which to win the game. Everyone else has three (their shooting, their assault, opponent assault). Tau need to inflict heavy damage in their shooting phase or its game over. Tau already are at a disadvantage, why built in more to their own dex.

Jayden63 wrote:Minuses you say? Give a bonus, but add a penalty you say? All in the name of balance.

What sort of crap is that?

Seriously. Don't any of you remember the total ass whooping that was Fear the Darkness. Doesn't anyone realize the damage free heavy bolters do to our guys. Where is the balance now? Screw that, make Firewarriors hit stupidly hard. Give us a HTH threat that will make an assault termi wet his pants and think twice about advancing into our lines.

Balance comes from point costs, not book work, not on random dice rolls. Why do the Tau have to be the play nice guys. You all do realize the massive amount of built in advantages many of the other races enjoy over the tau don't you? Lets let all of them be feared for a change instead of the universes whipping boy.

The Tau have one phase per game turn in which to win the game. Everyone else has three (their shooting, their assault, opponent assault). Tau need to inflict heavy damage in their shooting phase or its game over. Tau already are at a disadvantage, why built in more to their own dex.

So...rapid fire no penalties?

Also, this shooting counts as being outside the shooting phase, right? So FW could Double Tap twice before their next movement phase?

To be honest from the "for the greater good" side of things, leaving a few guys (or drones) behind to save the rest of the squad is probably a bit more on track than stand and shoot imo.
I'm not entirely sure that the stand and shoot proposed rule is actually going to do anything (math hammered above by someone else). Sure against 5+ saves or what have you its potentially dangerous but on your average marine its almost pointless and im not sure if that would work as a deterrent.

On the other hand allowing your units to flee gives a few interesting tactical options, maybe loosing a few models in the FW unit, the others run away and the attackers are left in the open with (hopefully) multiple tau units to take them out.

I guess another option is a snare type thing thats placed infront of the FW unit (like that thing the commander has in Dawn of War). Reduces the assualt range of the attacker by a third or something like that. Takes longer to get to you so you get more time to shoot?


Or you could just reduce the cost of FW and keep them as they are and use the points you gain for other units that will back up the FW from a mele point of view. But thats a more unit synergy point of view.


Feel free to pick the huge gaps in my arguments lol

tetrisphreak wrote:Well how about giving them a 'flee' reaction as well? Fits the fluff, run in the face of danger only to regroup and rapid fire again....

That is what my proposed Evade! Evade! rule does.

New USR; Evade! Evade!

Knowing their weakness and distaste for melee combat, the Tau have developed tactical doctrine and equipment that allows their infantry to more easily avoid getting caught in this primitive activity.

Tau infantry units equipped with Photon Grenades are granted the new Universal Special Rule “Evade! Evade!”

1. When charged by an enemy unit, the leader may give the command, “Evade! Evade!” The soldiers then deploy Photon Grenades and make a fall back move (2D6, or 3D6 for jetpack equipped units) directly away from the direction of the charge, in order not to get caught. If this move carries the unit off the edge of the table, it is removed from the game.

2. Models which are contacted by the enemy fight at initiative 1.

3. Models not contacted by the enemy are not subject to the rule Defenders React (p.34 of the small rulebook). They do not have to move up to six inches to contact enemy models in order to fight.

Fixing Tau:
-Pulse Rifles - become assault 2
-Pulse Carbines - get blast - range 12"
-Kroot - 5pts
-Devilfish - 30pts off
-Hammerheads - 15pts off the railrifle
-Pathfinders - option of buying a stealth drone (gives them the ability of the stealthsuits) - if they do so then they don't have to buy a transport - or just give them infiltrate/outflank and not have a transport requirement - make the minimum unit size 5
-Markerlights - become assault 1
-Crisis/Broadside suits - streamlined options, a little cheaper
-Commander - option to take a stealth suit
-Stealth suits - weapon options other than burst cannon/fusion blaster
-Special character that allows suits to be taken in other force org slots (say elite and fast attack)

Tau don't need anything in h2h for their fire warriors. Armies "should" have a weakness, catching Tau troops (not their allies) in h2h should be their weakness. It's tau, play better and your troops won't see h2h.

Kilkrazy.

I like your idea and applaud the orignality; however, I like the simplicity that borrowing charge reactions from fantasy would bring to the table (no pun intended).

The choice to stand and shoot vs. horde/high save units or if you think you can get out of assault range, choose the flee reaction. The downside to Flee! would be a leadership check to rally on your following turn. The downside to stand and shoot would be well, you're Tau and at least one marine is going to make it to you....having the ability to make wiping your unit a pyrrhic victory for your opponent is attractive IMO.

I'm going to talk to my friend that I usually play against and see if he wouldn't mind me experimenting with it a bit (no playing around with point costs).

A "flee" or "evade" type mechanic is already int he Tau codex.

Just throw a fail-safe detonator into a drone and make it available for general issue.

elrodogg wrote: Tau don't need anything in h2h for their fire warriors. Armies "should" have a weakness, catching Tau troops (not their allies) in h2h should be their weakness. It's tau, play better and your troops won't see h2h.

See Im kind of with this which is why im a bit against the whole stand and shoot thing. If you think FW are bad in H2H why should you give them H2H? Just make sure your troops dont get into that position in the first place. If you think they are bad by other troops standards, shave a few points off them.

Is it because you feel that the strength and accuracy of firewarriors does not make up for their lack of H2H ability? In that case you could increase the strength of the gun and/or accuracy as stated with various options (A2 weapons, different weapon profiles, increasing str, increasing bs or whatever). Im rather against increasing BS as I think markerlights do that effectively already, maybe networked would be nice but you catch my drift. And Str 6 standard weapons is stupid.


If they still need some type of defence after you've done all that for whatever reason, as said before I'm game for the evade option if an option must be chosen, but really I think unit synergy should be the way to go rather than making our baseline troops able to hand everything. If the evade option is unlocked by say an ethereal being on the board, then ok thats better.

Give Firewarriors Rail Rifles.

Boom. Headshot.

CpatTom wrote:Give Firewarriors Rail Rifles.

Boom. Headshot.

Why should firewarriors be the only troop choice in the game with zero options? I could see a unit of 12 having 2 railrifles.

You know we are really jumping through all kinds of hoops to make FW better. Isn't there an easier way to do it. One that doesn't require complex rules.

You want an awesome firewarrior? Same points cost, BS4 base with charge reactions....maybe, maybe special weapons in the squad (ie railrifle). Done.

Bump the points cost. Just let them upgrade to Rail Rifles and give them some sort of Squad Targeting Array. Makes them better than Sniper Scouts, and Meq's will have to ponder real hard whether they want to eat those S6 Ap3 shots.

This gives them an offensive capability. Firewarriors with the ability to cause damage, at range. Haha.

You mean a shooting-centric army that can actually produce quality shooting? Now that's crazy talk!

I've fallen prey to the madness of reason.

My suggestion Keep 10 points. BS 4, WS 1, and let them move after shooting. (I forget what ability dose that.) Move points up and down for balance.

I think based on everything I have seen, I can piece together an imagine of how firewarriors should be.

10 points
BS4 WS1 other stats the same.
For +5 points unit gets railrifle.
Option to take a Devilfish at 50pts.
Pulse Rifles can double tap at 15"

Pathfinder:
12 points.
BS4 other stats the same
Can pay bonus 2(?)pts per model for stealth field generator
Can infiltrate/outflank.

Fixed?

im2randomghgh wrote:I think based on everything I have seen, I can piece together an imagine of how firewarriors should be.

10 points
BS4 WS1 other stats the same.
For +5 points unit gets railrifle.
Option to take a Devilfish at 50pts.
Pulse Rifles can double tap at 15"

Pathfinder:
12 points.
BS4 other stats the same
Can pay bonus 2(?)pts per model for stealth field generator
Can infiltrate/outflank.

Fixed?

Looks good to me. what does a Stealth field do though? Isn't that what Stealth Suits have?

Yeah. Shooting at them is the same as night-fighting. I think they should simplify the stealthfield to just give a 4+ or 5+ cover save.

agnosto wrote:Yeah. Shooting at them is the same as night-fighting. I think they should simplify the stealthfield to just give a 4+ or 5+ cover save.

Nah, I like it this way. Especially when they're far, you get a good chance of taking NO saves.

I would be happy if losing drones didn't force a leadership check on Firewarriors.

I would be estatic if losing drones didn't force a leadership check on other drones.

They're friggin' drones. Let 'em be cheap, expendable items. They shouldn't be able to take objectives, only incoming fire.

Other than that, stay fluffy. Low H2H, shooty, with many allied races. I wept a little every time DE got another non-Eldar aux - the Sslyth would've been a dandy addition to The Greater Good.

Yeah, Ld test cause my shield drones blew up? I mean, maybe if these lil guys had personalities. If R2 and C-3PO are going up in smoke, yeah, maybe a feel a lil emotion then. If I'm taking fire, and my shot blocking frisbees go up in lil bits of plastic, thats what they were there for.

What would you guys hope for where models are concerned?

I'm hoping for a suit in the same weight class as the XV15-XV25 suit series that is like smaller xv8.

im2randomghgh wrote:I think based on everything I have seen, I can piece together an imagine of how firewarriors should be.

10 points
BS4 WS1 other stats the same.
For +5 points unit gets railrifle.
Option to take a Devilfish at 50pts.
Pulse Rifles can double tap at 15"

Fixed?

Fixed.

However, I would take the option for give the WHOLE squad rail rifles, rather than sprinkling them in.

One of the larger issues is the FW team size. In such small squads, unless the markerlight system changes, it's hard to get a good bonus going for anything but one unit. Changing the rapid fire range however fixes the issue with getting one round of rapid in and then just dying next turn to what survives.

As for models, I am hoping for some of the forgeworld stuff, and "maybe" a flyer, since it's the tau's thing. However, a flying transport, I forget what it's actually called, would be incredible, and forge world has one.

I would like the Tetra model, but the rules need to be upgraded if it is to be at all useful.

An Orca gunship/transport model would be awesome. I think it's over 12 inches long so it may not be do-able as a model on table.

They should include some of the forge world battle suits and hammerhead models. Tau should get another type of battle suit but it should still have the same functions as the XV8 except different armor type, maybe toughness 5??? Then give the hammerhead another weapon besides an Ion Cannon, or update the Ion Cannon with s 8 and I would be satistfied. Another alien race or two would be much appreciated as well. And the next codex must have a GOOD battle scene in it to read. The first codex had a great battle scene against the Imperium where they destroyed their tanks and made all the little guardsmen scatter and let the kroot mop up all the rest.

Some larger transport flyer might be cool, but nothing orca sized, as that is truly enormous.

TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:They should include some of the forge world battle suits and hammerhead models. Tau should get another type of battle suit but it should still have the same functions as the XV8 except different armor type, maybe toughness 5??? Then give the hammerhead another weapon besides an Ion Cannon, or update the Ion Cannon with s 8 and I would be satistfied. Another alien race or two would be much appreciated as well. And the next codex must have a GOOD battle scene in it to read. The first codex had a great battle scene against the Imperium where they destroyed their tanks and made all the little guardsmen scatter and let the kroot mop up all the rest.

You know you can give hammerheads railguns right. str 10 ap 1

I actually am not to fond of the forge world suits. Dose that make me the minority here?

He's probably talking about the forge world variant turrets for the hammerheads though they suck IMHO.

im2randomghgh wrote:I think based on everything I have seen, I can piece together an imagine of how firewarriors should be.

10 points
BS4 WS1 other stats the same.
For +5 points unit gets railrifle.
Option to take a Devilfish at 50pts.
Pulse Rifles can double tap at 15"

Pathfinder:
12 points.
BS4 other stats the same
Can pay bonus 2(?)pts per model for stealth field generator
Can infiltrate/outflank.

Fixed?

I would prefer something like this:

Fire Warriors

9 points each.
BS3 WS2 Re-roll 1s to hit at range
Evade! Evade! rule
Can purchase 1 SW per 6 FWs. Options are: Plasma Rifle, Rail Rifle, Burst Cannon (which I think should be Assault 4 and R24"), Fusion Blaster, Flamer (possible with the special Hellhound firing rules), Rail Rifle and Ion Blaster with appropriate costs.
New weapon: Ion Blaster, S4 AP3 Assault 3 18".
Pulse Carbines Assault 2
Pulse Rifles 15" double tap.

Pathfinders

12 points each
BS3 WS2 Re-roll 1s to hit at range
Evade! Evade! rule
May take as many Rail Rifles as they want at +3 points each
May fire Carbines in addition to their MLs, and when doing so they may use one of the bonuses.
ML tokens removed; all units firing at a ML'd unit may take 1 bonus
Can infiltrate

What if we let SL take battlesuits?

TrollPie wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:I think based on everything I have seen, I can piece together an imagine of how firewarriors should be.

10 points
BS4 WS1 other stats the same.
For +5 points unit gets railrifle.
Option to take a Devilfish at 50pts.
Pulse Rifles can double tap at 15"

Pathfinder:
12 points.
BS4 other stats the same
Can pay bonus 2(?)pts per model for stealth field generator
Can infiltrate/outflank.

Fixed?

I would prefer something like this:

Fire Warriors

9 points each.
BS3 WS2 Re-roll 1s to hit at range
Evade! Evade! rule
Can purchase 1 SW per 6 FWs. Options are: Plasma Rifle, Rail Rifle, Burst Cannon (which I think should be Assault 4 and R24"), Fusion Blaster, Flamer (possible with the special Hellhound firing rules), Rail Rifle and Ion Blaster with appropriate costs.
New weapon: Ion Blaster, S4 AP3 Assault 3 18".
Pulse Carbines Assault 2
Pulse Rifles 15" double tap.

Pathfinders

12 points each
BS3 WS2 Re-roll 1s to hit at range
Evade! Evade! rule
May take as many Rail Rifles as they want at +3 points each
May fire Carbines in addition to their MLs, and when doing so they may use one of the bonuses.
ML tokens removed; all units firing at a ML'd unit may take 1 bonus
Can infiltrate

I Dunno about the Special Weapons for the Fire Warriors. It goes against Tau Battle Doctrines to have Special Weapons with the Fire Warriors.

If the battlesuit squad size becomes four, there won't be so much need to give special weapons to Fire Warriors.

nomotog wrote:

TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:They should include some of the forge world battle suits and hammerhead models. Tau should get another type of battle suit but it should still have the same functions as the XV8 except different armor type, maybe toughness 5??? Then give the hammerhead another weapon besides an Ion Cannon, or update the Ion Cannon with s 8 and I would be satistfied. Another alien race or two would be much appreciated as well. And the next codex must have a GOOD battle scene in it to read. The first codex had a great battle scene against the Imperium where they destroyed their tanks and made all the little guardsmen scatter and let the kroot mop up all the rest.

You know you can give hammerheads railguns right. str 10 ap 1

I actually am not to fond of the forge world suits. Dose that make me the minority here?

The look or the rules? Because I run XV9s and there is just so much they can do that XV8s can't.

Like termie popping with Fusion Cascades. 2D3 Melta per suit/turn? Yes please.

Or do you mean the commander XV8s?

Kilkrazy wrote:If the battlesuit squad size becomes four, there won't be so much need to give special weapons to Fire Warriors.

I don't think the entire codex should be hinged on one unit like that. I think we should have multiple sources of special weapons or every list will simply spam the hell out of Crisis suits.

TrollPie wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If the battlesuit squad size becomes four, there won't be so much need to give special weapons to Fire Warriors.

I don't think the entire codex should be hinged on one unit like that. I think we should have multiple sources of special weapons or every list will simply spam the hell out of Crisis suits.

Well XV88s are already at least as good as crisis suits. So 2 things to spam

A lot of these modify the Tau things are based more on what players would like to see and less on what the Tau would actually do.

The Tau like everything to do one thing almost to the exclusion of all else. Kitting out the Firewarriors with a variety of weapons is directly counter to that.

I'm also still not keen on this evade-evade rule. The Tau solve problems through technology, not training (which is why they are BS 3 and WS 2).

So upgrade the photon grenades so they force the enemy to make a difficult terrain check as well as strip away the charge bonuses and give the Tau access to drones that carry fail-safe detonators.

This works out for the Tau because 1) the attackers might not reach the Tau lines 2) The attackers loose the benefit of the charge and drop to initiative 1 meaning they will kill less Tau and 3) Failsafe Drone allows the Tau to successfully break away without being swept.

and we stay with Firewarriors still following the fluff.

Now if we want weapon upgrades for the Firewarriors I suggest something that applies to the whole unit, like a special ammo that makes the Pulse weapons AP 3 or something like that.

Jefffar wrote:

I'm also still not keen on this evade-evade rule. The Tau solve problems through technology, not training (which is why they are BS 3 and WS 2).



Now if we want weapon upgrades for the Firewarriors I suggest something that applies to the whole unit, like a special ammo that makes the Pulse weapons AP 3 or something like that.

1. They are trained basically from birth. So...there's that.

2. That I can Agree with.

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:They should include some of the forge world battle suits and hammerhead models. Tau should get another type of battle suit but it should still have the same functions as the XV8 except different armor type, maybe toughness 5??? Then give the hammerhead another weapon besides an Ion Cannon, or update the Ion Cannon with s 8 and I would be satistfied. Another alien race or two would be much appreciated as well. And the next codex must have a GOOD battle scene in it to read. The first codex had a great battle scene against the Imperium where they destroyed their tanks and made all the little guardsmen scatter and let the kroot mop up all the rest.

You know you can give hammerheads railguns right. str 10 ap 1

I actually am not to fond of the forge world suits. Dose that make me the minority here?

The look or the rules? Because I run XV9s and there is just so much they can do that XV8s can't.

Like termie popping with Fusion Cascades. 2D3 Melta per suit/turn? Yes please.

Or do you mean the commander XV8s?

The look. I don't like how the models look. They just seem to match poorly.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. They are trained basically from birth. So...there's that.

and can onl get to a BS of 3 and a WS of 2. Training does not seem to be the way they get things done.

Hi all. I'm a first time poster so please forgive any errors in my understanding of the rules.
I have always thought of the Tau as a highly mobile army that uses combined arms and high mobility to win. At present, however, the basic Fire Warrior is treated as a gunline troop as the risk of getting close to the opponent is too great to justify the benefit of rapid fire. I also agree with an earlier poster that their technology is their main way of overcoming their shortcomings and in the current codex this means the markerlight.

1. Give Fire Warriors a special rule that enables them to fire a rapid fire weapon at full range, even if they moved. This would probably also require Pulse Carbine to be made better to compensate for the Pulse rifle’s improvement. I would suggest ‘12” Range, Assault 2, Pinning’.
2. Make Markerlights Assault 1 and allow any squad, even the squad that fired to use the effects.
3. Simplify Markerlights to the following effects.
a. Allow the firing squad to re-roll misses
b. Force the target squad to re-roll cover saves
c. Force the target squad to re-roll pinning tests
d. Fire a seeker missile (as current)
4. Give Fire Warrior Shas'ui BS4, as they currently have an option for taking markerlights.
5. Give Pathfinders the choice of the existing Scout USR and the upgraded Devilfish or the Infiltrate USR without the transport.
6. Add a new variant of the Markerlight, let's call it the Blinderlight, that forces the enemy squad to treat all terrain as difficult terrain in their next movement phase.

1: I don't see happening, there'd be no reason to take carbines due to all the morale immune units, and it doesn't make much sense.
2: done
3: I like the current system. It works and IMO is slightly better than yours.
4: done
5: done
6: couldn't this be done through another weapon or missile? Also, don't most forces have visors/autosenses that can overcome that effect?

Jefffar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. They are trained basically from birth. So...there's that.

and can onl get to a BS of 3 and a WS of 2. Training does not seem to be the way they get things done.

It's more of a game balance thing, I believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:

TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:They should include some of the forge world battle suits and hammerhead models. Tau should get another type of battle suit but it should still have the same functions as the XV8 except different armor type, maybe toughness 5??? Then give the hammerhead another weapon besides an Ion Cannon, or update the Ion Cannon with s 8 and I would be satistfied. Another alien race or two would be much appreciated as well. And the next codex must have a GOOD battle scene in it to read. The first codex had a great battle scene against the Imperium where they destroyed their tanks and made all the little guardsmen scatter and let the kroot mop up all the rest.

You know you can give hammerheads railguns right. str 10 ap 1

I actually am not to fond of the forge world suits. Dose that make me the minority here?

The look or the rules? Because I run XV9s and there is just so much they can do that XV8s can't.

Like termie popping with Fusion Cascades. 2D3 Melta per suit/turn? Yes please.

Or do you mean the commander XV8s?

The look. I don't like how the models look. They just seem to match poorly.

The XV9s don't match with crisis suits, but they actually match better with the gentle curves of their vehicles/Stealth suits/Drones.

IMO Crisis suits contrast greatly with the rest because of their hard, blocky lines.

Jefffar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. They are trained basically from birth. So...there's that.

and can onl get to a BS of 3 and a WS of 2. Training does not seem to be the way they get things done.

Cadians are also BS3 and trained from birth to be nothing but warriors as well as being supposedly among the best guard regiments around. Its a little crowded having all of the armies basic troops vying between BS3 and BS4. Veteran squads are either the hard bitten survivors of countless wars that have left hundreds of their comrades dead, or really elite guard like Gaunts Ghosts. Fire warriors having BS3 is thus technically appropriate.

But, Tau are an enlightened race who don't believe in throwing lives away, or not making the best out of what they have. Also there've been a few descriptions of Tau training domes having left the Imperials in awe of the facilities available to even the basic soldiers; equal to full mock battles and the like. Thats a bit more than cleaning the rifle and putting a bayonet into a straw maniqin. So fluff wise they kind of do use training to get things done, they don't just hand out plasma weapons off a rack and let um figure it out for themselves.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The XV9s don't match with crisis suits, but they actually match better with the gentle curves of their vehicles/Stealth suits/Drones.

IMO Crisis suits contrast greatly with the rest because of their hard, blocky lines.

I just don't like them. The look too Japanese. (I can explain what I mean if you want.) I also like how I can use magnets in my crisis suits. I wouldn't be able to do that with the XV9.


I kind of expect to see an expansion to the marker light rules with different units being able to spend mark tokens to perform different powers. Like maybe an aun can call down a orbital strike by spending 4 marker tokens or a engineer being able to heal a cisssis suit by hitting it with a markerlight.

Sure they're BS3 and WS2 but so what? How do we know what their starting stats were? Humanity is a savage, war-like race, built for combat. The Tau, by contrast, may well be more inherantly civilised. They may not have the inherant willingness to kill another as humans do (BS) or instinctive killing behavior (WS).

It's all about external and internal balance. Internally, Firewarriors are the basic troop type of the Tau military. They're the infantry linesmen, they have BS3 because that represents them as grunts. Yes, you can go on about how they're trained from birth, which isn't necessarily true, but what then makes the Crisis suits different? It's them who should gain BS3, on account of their experience and rank. Externally, thay have to be balanced with the troop types of other armies. Space Marines are super-soldiers, they're leaps and bounds better than a Firewarrior, it's why they have BS4. All the other races that have BS4 have it for a reason, because they're better than a Tau.

Joey wrote:Sure they're BS3 and WS2 but so what? How do we know what their starting stats were? Humanity is a savage, war-like race, built for combat. The Tau, by contrast, may well be more inherantly civilised. They may not have the inherant willingness to kill another as humans do (BS) or instinctive killing behavior (WS).

Humans in 40k weren't (so far as iam aware) created for a prupose like Nids, or eldar, or orks, or necrons to fight they pretty much just evolved from primordial ouze.

A race that belives it has a manifest destiny to conquer the galaxy isn't aggressive? Also Tau are very aggressive, especially the Fire Caste, they were killing eachother quite well enough until the Ethereals showed up and in Courage and Honour one captured Fire Warrior has a nervous breakdown; becoming murderous and vicious. The fluff reason is they don't bother to train in CC at all since its beneath them and irrational, whilst low BS is apparently down to poor eyesight. Personally I think BS4 suits and even a veteran squad (already have honour guard) are perfectly justified since they are the Veterans of the Tau and using a one line throw-away piece of fluff to define the army is pretty silly; I could honestly see them retconning it. Theres nothing wrong with BS3 FW, its just price is a tad high and nobody takes hordes; and their special weapons support (Crisis suits) are horrendously expensive for such a fragile unit.

BTW since every recent codex has had at least one mega unit (Valkyrie, Trygon, DreadKnight etc) what do you think is most likely for Tau?

* Tau flier (Barracuda?)
*Transport aircraft (a mini orca?)
* Great Knarloc (a Vespid monstrous creature?)
*A big battlesuit (not XV-88)

Barracuda would be cool. They might need to change the armaments a little though. Right now it's a little like a hammer head taped to a sky ray.

Great knarloc would be cool too.

Joey wrote:Sure they're BS3 and WS2 but so what? How do we know what their starting stats were? Humanity is a savage, war-like race, built for combat. The Tau, by contrast, may well be more inherantly civilised. They may not have the inherant willingness to kill another as humans do (BS) or instinctive killing behavior (WS).

Although the Fire Caste is literally bred for war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Joey wrote:Sure they're BS3 and WS2 but so what? How do we know what their starting stats were? Humanity is a savage, war-like race, built for combat. The Tau, by contrast, may well be more inherantly civilised. They may not have the inherant willingness to kill another as humans do (BS) or instinctive killing behavior (WS).

Humans in 40k weren't (so far as iam aware) created for a prupose like Nids, or eldar, or orks, or necrons to fight they pretty much just evolved from primordial ouze.

A race that belives it has a manifest destiny to conquer the galaxy isn't aggressive? Also Tau are very aggressive, especially the Fire Caste, they were killing eachother quite well enough until the Ethereals showed up and in Courage and Honour one captured Fire Warrior has a nervous breakdown; becoming murderous and vicious. The fluff reason is they don't bother to train in CC at all since its beneath them and irrational, whilst low BS is apparently down to poor eyesight. Personally I think BS4 suits and even a veteran squad (already have honour guard) are perfectly justified since they are the Veterans of the Tau and using a one line throw-away piece of fluff to define the army is pretty silly; I could honestly see them retconning it. Theres nothing wrong with BS3 FW, its just price is a tad high and nobody takes hordes; and their special weapons support (Crisis suits) are horrendously expensive for such a fragile unit.

BTW since every recent codex has had at least one mega unit (Valkyrie, Trygon, DreadKnight etc) what do you think is most likely for Tau?

* Tau flier (Barracuda?)
*Transport aircraft (a mini orca?)
* Great Knarloc (a Vespid monstrous creature?)
*A big battlesuit (not XV-88)

It'd say a pimped out battlesuit.

Actually, their eyesight is slower to adjust, but much better once it does. Like, MUCH better. They see further into both UV AND IR, Implying they are tetrachromatic, meaning they would see roughly 1000xtimes the colours and hues humans do, meaning they would see in much greater detail.

Tetrachromatic is a fun word.

Everybody gets something new and shiny.

Farsight Enclave CC Power Weapon for suits? Let all the little Gundam fans really go at it. Seems like a fun idea to me. Jet packing around, cutting people apart, being all angry cause the Etherals lied to us and it hurt our feelings. Haha.

Edit: I'm usually super anti CC for Tau, but this might be a fun idea.

It would build on the Farsight == Badaaaaaassss idea that is in the existing fluff.

The Farsight army has limitations on the other equipment it can take so should not become the default choice for Tau players because of being better at melee.

CpatTom wrote:Tetrachromatic is a fun word.

Everybody gets something new and shiny.

Farsight Enclave CC Power Weapon for suits? Let all the little Gundam fans really go at it. Seems like a fun idea to me. Jet packing around, cutting people apart, being all angry cause the Etherals lied to us and it hurt our feelings. Haha.

Edit: I'm usually super anti CC for Tau, but this might be a fun idea.

That would make sense, actually. As I recalled Farsight's warriors loved to get stuck in. Plus, this could help limit their expednditure of ammunition, 1 CC weapon and one gun means less bullets need be forged.

and to make it interesting, make them able to charge then boost out off CC, so basically just hit and run, but 3d6+3, and counter attack incase they boost only six inches. This gives you the ability to make CC kills with them and their power weapons (reverse-engineered Dawn Blade?) without giving them such a huge WS boost that they could take on termies.

Too good?

I think a power weapon would be a bit too powerful, even in the hands of a Tau. Since basic suits get 2 attacks, I think a vibro/mono-molecular type weapon that conferred rending to cc attacks at the expense of a weapon slot would be more balanced.

acekevin8412 wrote:I think a power weapon would be a bit too powerful, even in the hands of a Tau. Since basic suits get 2 attacks, I think a vibro/mono-molecular type weapon that conferred rending to cc attacks at the expense of a weapon slot would be more balanced.

Or how about a saw hand thing that is +1str, rending and +1 attack in cc would be better, a good large points cost.

Is that even necessary? S5 A2 rending x 3 battlesuits is pretty powerful in my opinion.

S6 A3 rending x 3 would be a little abusive. How many points are you talking about? If it's going to be a battlesuit weapon, it should cost as much as the others.

acekevin8412 wrote:Is that even necessary? S5 A2 rending x 3 battlesuits is pretty powerful in my opinion.

S6 A3 rending x 3 would be a little abusive. How many points are you talking about? If it's going to be a battlesuit weapon, it should cost as much as the others.

25? a bit more/less? Because blasting away with plasma rifles than closing is appealing, and it wouldn't be so over powered because you'd be hitting most thing on like, what, 5+? that's 1 hit per suit, three hits in total for the whole unit. They'd hardly be a CC unit, but they'd be able to at least inflict SOME damage on meqs/teqs

Sorry if this has already been discussed but i always thought the idea of tau having a dual armour save 3+ vs shooting and 6+ in combat as it would fit their theme almost like refractive armour another idea i thought would be tracer rounds for against night vision and built in markerlights but at the cost of +1ap or -1 strength

im2randomghgh wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:Is that even necessary? S5 A2 rending x 3 battlesuits is pretty powerful in my opinion.

S6 A3 rending x 3 would be a little abusive. How many points are you talking about? If it's going to be a battlesuit weapon, it should cost as much as the others.

25? a bit more/less? Because blasting away with plasma rifles than closing is appealing, and it wouldn't be so over powered because you'd be hitting most thing on like, what, 5+? that's 1 hit per suit, three hits in total for the whole unit. They'd hardly be a CC unit, but they'd be able to at least inflict SOME damage on meqs/teqs

Well, If were to make a rule for Farsight, I'd add something like this.
Hardened Warriors: Every Tau unit, not auxiliaries, receive +1WS (maybe +1I?)
Now at WS3(I3), they'll be hitting on 4+ until WS7.
and then,
Close-Combat Aptitude: Shas'Ui Team Leaders and battlesuits may take a rending close combat for xpts. This weapon uses a system slot on battlesuits.

This strengthens Farsight FWs enough so that they can now fight toe-to-toe with guardsmen, which is what I think Farsight FW should be able to do.

Also, Farsight Enclaves should probably have access to Kroot. In the fluff, the Kroot are depicted as working as mercenaries behind the Tau's back, so why not help the Enclaves? This will keep them with access to Tau weapons and they could probably teach a thing or two to Farsights troops about cc.

acekevin8412 wrote:Is that even necessary? S5 A2 rending x 3 battlesuits is pretty powerful in my opinion.

S6 A3 rending x 3 would be a little abusive. How many points are you talking about? If it's going to be a battlesuit weapon, it should cost as much as the others.

technically under 12'', 3 suits can fire 6 str6 ap2 shots and 3 str8 ap1 as bs4. Its just that then your average suit costs near a 100pts, is easy to knock out with shooting and shooting that close is last resort.

acekevin8412 wrote:Well, If were to make a rule for Farsight, I'd add something like this.
Hardened Warriors: Every Tau unit, not auxiliaries, receive +1WS (maybe +1I?)
Now at WS3(I3), they'll be hitting on 4+ until WS7.
and then,
Close-Combat Aptitude: Shas'Ui Team Leaders and battlesuits may take a rending close combat for xpts. This weapon uses a system slot on battlesuits.

This strengthens Farsight FWs enough so that they can now fight toe-to-toe with guardsmen, which is what I think Farsight FW should be able to do.

Also, Farsight Enclaves should probably have access to Kroot. In the fluff, the Kroot are depicted as working as mercenaries behind the Tau's back, so why not help the Enclaves? This will keep them with access to Tau weapons and they could probably teach a thing or two to Farsights troops about cc.

I'd say Farsight's Tau might get a WS and/or Initiative Boost but rending weapons don't work for me for fluff reasons. Though I do consider that a battlesuit's strength bonus means that each of it's fists should count as a close combat weapon, thus giving them a bonus attack. I also think that Shas'ui and up - who are supposed to be veterans of combat and or survivors of a Trial by Fire, should have WS +1 in general.

As for Farsight and the Kroot, from Farsight's commentary in the codex it is apparent that he is a racial supremacist on a campaign of conquest and genocide. So the Kroot in his forces would have been among his first victims and Kroot Mercenaries he encounters he would attack.

Jayden63 wrote:Minuses you say? Give a bonus, but add a penalty you say? All in the name of balance.

What sort of crap is that?

Seriously. Don't any of you remember the total ass whooping that was Fear the Darkness. Doesn't anyone realize the damage free heavy bolters do to our guys. Where is the balance now? Screw that, make Firewarriors hit stupidly hard. Give us a HTH threat that will make an assault termi wet his pants and think twice about advancing into our lines.

Balance comes from point costs, not book work, not on random dice rolls. Why do the Tau have to be the play nice guys. You all do realize the massive amount of built in advantages many of the other races enjoy over the tau don't you? Lets let all of them be feared for a change instead of the universes whipping boy.

The Tau have one phase per game turn in which to win the game. Everyone else has three (their shooting, their assault, opponent assault). Tau need to inflict heavy damage in their shooting phase or its game over. Tau already are at a disadvantage, why built in more to their own dex.

Yeah, because Tau were so bad during 4th, which the current dex is written for...

acekevin8412 wrote:I think a power weapon would be a bit too powerful, even in the hands of a Tau. Since basic suits get 2 attacks, I think a vibro/mono-molecular type weapon that conferred rending to cc attacks at the expense of a weapon slot would be more balanced.

Yeah and GK Paladins are so much more balanced with their WS4, BS4, I4, 2 attacks, 2 wounds 2+ save, access to FnP, psychic powers, shunting and force weapons. I'd pay 55pts for a crisis suit that does all of that because they already cost that much or more when they're kitted out anyway.

Nope, I'm not full of angst at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:Is that even necessary? S5 A2 rending x 3 battlesuits is pretty powerful in my opinion.

S6 A3 rending x 3 would be a little abusive. How many points are you talking about? If it's going to be a battlesuit weapon, it should cost as much as the others.

25? a bit more/less? Because blasting away with plasma rifles than closing is appealing, and it wouldn't be so over powered because you'd be hitting most thing on like, what, 5+? that's 1 hit per suit, three hits in total for the whole unit. They'd hardly be a CC unit, but they'd be able to at least inflict SOME damage on meqs/teqs

25 points?! Thats how much you pay for a power fist. Which is x2 strength, AND its an actual power weapon (not rending). What if we pulled a relic blade, so +2 str power weapon for 15 points. That way they are only str7, so they aren't IDing MEQ. Just a thought, that seems balanced to me.

agnosto wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:I think a power weapon would be a bit too powerful, even in the hands of a Tau. Since basic suits get 2 attacks, I think a vibro/mono-molecular type weapon that conferred rending to cc attacks at the expense of a weapon slot would be more balanced.

Yeah and GK Paladins are so much more balanced with their WS4, BS4, I4, 2 attacks, 2 wounds 2+ save, access to FnP, psychic powers, shunting and force weapons. I'd pay 55pts for a crisis suit that does all of that because they already cost that much or more when they're kitted out anyway.

Nope, I'm not full of angst at all.

Paladins are WS5 but can absolutely not shunt.

What's up with people complaining about GK not getting stuff right?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

agnosto wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:I think a power weapon would be a bit too powerful, even in the hands of a Tau. Since basic suits get 2 attacks, I think a vibro/mono-molecular type weapon that conferred rending to cc attacks at the expense of a weapon slot would be more balanced.

Yeah and GK Paladins are so much more balanced with their WS4, BS4, I4, 2 attacks, 2 wounds 2+ save, access to FnP, psychic powers, shunting and force weapons. I'd pay 55pts for a crisis suit that does all of that because they already cost that much or more when they're kitted out anyway.

Nope, I'm not full of angst at all.

Paladins are WS5 but can absolutely not shunt.

What's up with people complaining about GK not getting stuff right?

You mean there's one thing they can't do? wow!

About getting things wrong, I figured I'd just list everything in the book and I'd be mostly right....and I was. Are they 55pts though? And way to nitpick without adressing the issue that for less points you get a unit that's twice as good as a crisis suit.

Jefffar wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:Well, If were to make a rule for Farsight, I'd add something like this.
Hardened Warriors: Every Tau unit, not auxiliaries, receive +1WS (maybe +1I?)
Now at WS3(I3), they'll be hitting on 4+ until WS7.
and then,
Close-Combat Aptitude: Shas'Ui Team Leaders and battlesuits may take a rending close combat for xpts. This weapon uses a system slot on battlesuits.

This strengthens Farsight FWs enough so that they can now fight toe-to-toe with guardsmen, which is what I think Farsight FW should be able to do.

Also, Farsight Enclaves should probably have access to Kroot. In the fluff, the Kroot are depicted as working as mercenaries behind the Tau's back, so why not help the Enclaves? This will keep them with access to Tau weapons and they could probably teach a thing or two to Farsights troops about cc.

Any quotes in particular? I looked through the Tau codex again as well as the Lexicanum, and I still can't find anything

I'd say Farsight's Tau might get a WS and/or Initiative Boost but rending weapons don't work for me for fluff reasons. Though I do consider that a battlesuit's strength bonus means that each of it's fists should count as a close combat weapon, thus giving them a bonus attack. I also think that Shas'ui and up - who are supposed to be veterans of combat and or survivors of a Trial by Fire, should have WS +1 in general.

As for Farsight and the Kroot, from Farsight's commentary in the codex it is apparent that he is a racial supremacist on a campaign of conquest and genocide. So the Kroot in his forces would have been among his first victims and Kroot Mercenaries he encounters he would attack.

Fluff reasons? can you elaborate on that? You are also right about the +1A and +1WS.

Also, are there any particular quotes that implies that Farsight is a racial supremacist? I looked through the codex again, as well as the lexicanum, and I can't find anything that says that. I thought he just hated the "normal" Tau and left to fend for himself.

I'vve packed my boxes for a move, but in his commentary about how the other great starfairers being unwilling to ally with other races leads into statements that the Tau should also not ally with other races (ie Vespid and Kroot).

Speculation is all on the Farsight front. Nothing of substance as to why he does not use Kroot. (although with the lack of etheral guidance the Tau were pretty racist/xenophobic/ going to kill each other, so there might be something to that).

PraetorDave wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:Is that even necessary? S5 A2 rending x 3 battlesuits is pretty powerful in my opinion.

S6 A3 rending x 3 would be a little abusive. How many points are you talking about? If it's going to be a battlesuit weapon, it should cost as much as the others.

25? a bit more/less? Because blasting away with plasma rifles than closing is appealing, and it wouldn't be so over powered because you'd be hitting most thing on like, what, 5+? that's 1 hit per suit, three hits in total for the whole unit. They'd hardly be a CC unit, but they'd be able to at least inflict SOME damage on meqs/teqs

25 points?! Thats how much you pay for a power fist. Which is x2 strength, AND its an actual power weapon (not rending). What if we pulled a relic blade, so +2 str power weapon for 15 points. That way they are only str7, so they aren't IDing MEQ. Just a thought, that seems balanced to me.

I hadn't thought about it that way.
That actually makes perfect sense.

For an Empire small enough that it can afford to equip all it's warriors with the best possible equipment, that sounds reasonable enough that I'm actually pissed it isn't ours already

im2randomghgh wrote:I hadn't thought about it that way.
That actually makes perfect sense.

For an Empire small enough that it can afford to equip all it's warriors with the best possible equipment, that sounds reasonable enough that I'm actually pissed it isn't ours already

Well maybe thinking close combat is abhorrent and barbaric and not a proper way to wage warfare and therefore not worth the investment has something to do with that.


In short, it, like all other close combat weapon ideas for the Tau, just doesn't fit the Tau character.

If you want a real Tau Close Combat unit give it the ability to avoid being charged and break contact if it does get charged. That's what the Tau want to do in close combat.

The Hazard Suits are as close combat as the Tau should get.

@Jefffar

You mean this quote?
"...The hand of each of the starfarers is turned against the other; none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper. Neither should we."

I understand most of it, except for one line, "none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper." Particularly the "just to see their enemies prosper part." Wouldn't two races working together make it harder for the enemy to prosper?

acekevin8412 wrote:@Jefffar

You mean this quote?
"...The hand of each of the starfarers is turned against the other; none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper. Neither should we."

I understand most of it, except for one line, "none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper." Particularly the "just to see their enemies prosper part." Wouldn't two races working together make it harder for the enemy to prosper?

I think it is adhering to more archaic grammar rules, and that the meaning is "They try to standalone and not have allies, which only strengthens their foes"

But isn't that an argument against isolation? If standing alone, makes your enemies stronger, doesn't that mean they should band together?

Sorry to OP if this is jacking the discussion from your thread.

agnosto wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

agnosto wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:I think a power weapon would be a bit too powerful, even in the hands of a Tau. Since basic suits get 2 attacks, I think a vibro/mono-molecular type weapon that conferred rending to cc attacks at the expense of a weapon slot would be more balanced.

Yeah and GK Paladins are so much more balanced with their WS4, BS4, I4, 2 attacks, 2 wounds 2+ save, access to FnP, psychic powers, shunting and force weapons. I'd pay 55pts for a crisis suit that does all of that because they already cost that much or more when they're kitted out anyway.

Nope, I'm not full of angst at all.

Paladins are WS5 but can absolutely not shunt.

What's up with people complaining about GK not getting stuff right?

You mean there's one thing they can't do? wow!

About getting things wrong, I figured I'd just list everything in the book and I'd be mostly right....and I was. Are they 55pts though? And way to nitpick without adressing the issue that for less points you get a unit that's twice as good as a crisis suit.

Yes, they're 55 points actually.

acekevin8412 wrote:@Jefffar

You mean this quote?
"...The hand of each of the starfarers is turned against the other; none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper. Neither should we."

I understand most of it, except for one line, "none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper." Particularly the "just to see their enemies prosper part." Wouldn't two races working together make it harder for the enemy to prosper?

Actually, the intention of Farsight's statement is that two powers will not work together against a common foe because it may benefit the other power who, in the past has been their enemy.

Or perhaps to make it a little more sensible . . .


The Imperium and the Eldar have a very similar enemies list - orks, necrons, chaos, dark eldar . . . yet the Imperium and the Eldar have yet to form a lasting alliance with each other and are actually more likely to fight each other than help each other. Why? Because, for all the common goals the two share, at the end of the day they are competitors and enemies. So the Eldar doesn't want the humans to prosper and the humans don't want the Eldar to prosper.

Or to paraphrase Farsight "No-one out here works together because everybody has wronged everybody else in the past. So it is pointless for us to be any different. Instead of trying to convert people to our way, we should treat everyone as our enemy and destroy them."

Ahhhh, Thanks it all makes sense now.

Well, back on topic, I heard over on BoLS, that in the new IAA 2nd Edition, the barracuda entry is missing. Supposedely, this implies that GW has taken over its use and it'll be in the next Tau codex.

acekevin8412 wrote:Ahhhh, Thanks it all makes sense now.

Well, back on topic, I heard over on BoLS, that in the new IAA 2nd Edition, the barracuda entry is missing. Supposedely, this implies that GW has taken over its use and it'll be in the next Tau codex.

Seems like it would imply that it has been cut?

According to BoLS, when GW acquires a FW unit, like the Valkyrie, FW aren't supposed to have it in their future books.
And because the barracuda is missing, and that 6th edition supposed to integrate flyers, he think that it's going to be in the next codex.

I am in agreement with a few of the posters here when they say the Tau need to have at least one capable CC unit. With the codex shifts occuring in all 5th ed. books there would be little trouble explaining why the Tau have started looking at the problems associated with fighting only at range. The Tau are a scientific and technical society which would realize their vulnerability in Close Combat.
This does not mean they have to wield power swords or powerfists but they would find ways to fight in the CC phase of the game.

Here are a few ideas:
Flechette Drones...used to repel assaults. Just like Vehicle flechette rules
Power Fields on vehicles and suits...everytime a hit is scored in CC the attacking force also takes a lower st hit.
Assault Drones....flying Buzzsaws....high Initiative and Rending....

They don't need a CC unit, They just need the ability to make a move backwards in the assault phase equal to their initiative, or something. Or rapid fire at 15 inches.

Every Army in the game has multiple Long range and CC based units....except the Tau...they get Kroot, that is their only CC option, and it pales in comparison to almost all others.

Drones really seem to be where you would fit this type of unit in...like my previous post...Flechette and Assault drones, either attached to FW squads/Suits or set up in their own units like Gun Drones are in the current Dex.
Maybe give the new CMD units some form of weapon....powersword/mace/whip...Suits with a weapon do look cool and a CMDR would have enough experience to justify using it.

After purchasing several XV-9 suits and playing them multiple times, I have found them very useful for the role of CC fire brigade, alot of close range firepower and the hit and run with JSJ makes these guys work well to react to enemy CC incursions.

Granted its not a CC unit per-say but it does CC the way I have always envisaged the Tau would " the best way to win in CC is not to engage in CC "

So hopefully with the eventual release of a future codex the XV-9 will be standardized and more units like them maybe implemented, I personally dont want a Tau CC unit, Aux are fine but lets keep the Tau on a higher path, besides there are plenty of CC armies out there already, viva la differance!

juraigamer wrote:They don't need a CC unit, They just need the ability to make a move backwards in the assault phase equal to their initiative, or something. Or rapid fire at 15 inches.

or kroot with a 5+ and no points increase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:After purchasing several XV-9 suits and playing them multiple times, I have found them very useful for the role of CC fire brigade, alot of close range firepower and the hit and run with JSJ makes these guys work well to react to enemy CC incursions.

Granted its not a CC unit per-say but it does CC the way I have always envisaged the Tau would " the best way to win in CC is not to engage in CC "

So hopefully with the eventual release of a future codex the XV-9 will be standardized and more units like them maybe implemented, I personally dont want a Tau CC unit, Aux are fine but lets keep the Tau on a higher path, besides there are plenty of CC armies out there already, vive la différence!

I love my XV9s. My apoc games are almost exclusively XV88, XV9 and mantas.

And the best way to describe the XV9s isn't Close Combat, it would be Close Quarters, as in shooting from the end of a hallway rather than from across enormous plains miles away.

P.S. corrected your french.

One thing I have seen occur on this thread quite a bit which I would like to point out:

A number of individuals point to other Armies (codices?) and say, they can do this and that, so why cant the Tau?

My Response is this: 40k is not chess. If all the Armies can do exactly the same thing, that is in essence what you have made the game.

If you want your army to do all of the things the opponents army can do, and you still want to play 40k, play that army.

If you like the Tau's aesthetic, but some other armies rules, convert and backstory it up. 40k is the perfect place for that.

Mostly, please, dont ask for the Tau to be like everybody else. I like my special little blue hoofed snowflake.

CpatTom wrote:One thing I have seen occur on this thread quite a bit which I would like to point out:

A number of individuals point to other Armies (codices?) and say, they can do this and that, so why cant the Tau?

My Response is this: 40k is not chess. If all the Armies can do exactly the same thing, that is in essence what you have made the game.

If you want your army to do all of the things the opponents army can do, and you still want to play 40k, play that army.

If you like the Tau's aesthetic, but some other armies rules, convert and backstory it up. 40k is the perfect place for that.

Mostly, please, dont ask for the Tau to be like everybody else. I like my special little blue hoofed snowflake.

I agree with that completely, actually.

Anyways though, the XV9 is actually really good when working in conjunction with XV8, because the XV8 and XV88. The XV88 excels at great ranges, the XV8 at middle ranges, and the XV9 at fairly short ranges.

I have always thought it was very Tau-y, having everyone play their own part.

if they want some balance for Tau in regard to all the speedy CC in the game now they can do some easy tweaks for all the DS armies oh the Tau have a scrambler field now you scatter more (F you BA and drop pods) for trying to drop within 18 in (basicly reducing their droping to infultraiting distances) or just give the Tau a shooting round against it. Tau fluffwise are all about tech so let us take tech up grades to screw up our enemies.

Id love to see marklights on all vehicles they can be out defensive weapons 4-6 on a hammerhead/skyray, 2 on a piranha 3-4 on a devilfish. troop battle suit squads - limited builds and upgrades HQs that dont blow. more from our guns BC 4-6 shots plasma assault 2 or 3, MP assualt 3 or see our suit squad number increase along with out LD values. troops that get grenades FREE, stealth drones and suits that acually get a stealth bonus not just a mobile cover save, kroot with more ini and a dodge save (maybe even a kroot psyker :read savage scars they exist!) Im hoping for some special rulles some small buffing and point cost reductions the new tank would be cool but I dont want to have to get 3 to be competitive I want to see the army get some balancing out against all these ridiculous CC armies, its a damn sci-fi game if i wanted melee focus id play fantasy

atlas_garon wrote:if they want some balance for Tau in regard to all the speedy CC in the game now they can do some easy tweaks for all the DS armies oh the Tau have a scrambler field now you scatter more (F you BA and drop pods) for trying to drop within 18 in (basicly reducing their droping to infultraiting distances) or just give the Tau a shooting round against it. Tau fluffwise are all about tech so let us take tech up grades to screw up our enemies.

Id love to see marklights on all vehicles they can be out defensive weapons 4-6 on a hammerhead/skyray, 2 on a piranha 3-4 on a devilfish. troop battle suit squads - limited builds and upgrades HQs that dont blow. more from our guns BC 4-6 shots plasma assault 2 or 3, MP assualt 3 or see our suit squad number increase along with out LD values. troops that get grenades FREE, stealth drones and suits that acually get a stealth bonus not just a mobile cover save, kroot with more ini and a dodge save (maybe even a kroot psyker :read savage scars they exist!) Im hoping for some special rulles some small buffing and point cost reductions the new tank would be cool but I dont want to have to get 3 to be competitive I want to see the army get some balancing out against all these ridiculous CC armies, its a damn sci-fi game if i wanted melee focus id play fantasy

If we added all that, tau would never lose, ever.

It's that simple.

CpatTom wrote:One thing I have seen occur on this thread quite a bit which I would like to point out:

A number of individuals point to other Armies (codices?) and say, they can do this and that, so why cant the Tau?

My Response is this: 40k is not chess. If all the Armies can do exactly the same thing, that is in essence what you have made the game.

If you want your army to do all of the things the opponents army can do, and you still want to play 40k, play that army.

If you like the Tau's aesthetic, but some other armies rules, convert and backstory it up. 40k is the perfect place for that.

Mostly, please, dont ask for the Tau to be like everybody else. I like my special little blue hoofed snowflake.

Well said!

The game needs a variety of army styles to be interesting.

Kilkrazy wrote:

CpatTom wrote:One thing I have seen occur on this thread quite a bit which I would like to point out:

A number of individuals point to other Armies (codices?) and say, they can do this and that, so why cant the Tau?

My Response is this: 40k is not chess. If all the Armies can do exactly the same thing, that is in essence what you have made the game.

If you want your army to do all of the things the opponents army can do, and you still want to play 40k, play that army.

If you like the Tau's aesthetic, but some other armies rules, convert and backstory it up. 40k is the perfect place for that.

Mostly, please, dont ask for the Tau to be like everybody else. I like my special little blue hoofed snowflake.

Well said!

The game needs a variety of army styles to be interesting.

Thank you, kindly.