If you activate the wolf totem in the movement phase then randomly have the same guy who is carrying it die's before the assault phase. What happens to the power does it still exist or is it gone now. Iam asking this because i read it as : you need the totem in your unit to activate obiviously, but once it is activated or so called " called upon" I belive from reading it that they no longer need the standard in thier unit because 1, it met the previous requirement to have him in the unit when called upon and 2, thier is no limiter as to when the effect ends other then the end the following assualting phase and gives no mention of the totem having to be with you still.
So opinions?
But it was a unit with a wolf standard when it was activated. So how can it not benfit,
Does unit have totem, yes
Unit calls upon power does unit still have totem,yes
totem carrier now dies in movment phase.- no totem
assualt phase requirements for totem power
Was power called upon when unit had totem-yes
Is this still the same unit-yes
Both requirements are fullfilled, That the unit called upon the power of the wolf spirit while in possesion of a totem and the other requirement in which the unit is still the same unit.
Where does it say it has to have a Totem for them to benefit form the special rules, all they need is the totem for the activation and nothing more.
Direct quote- Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.- It is only required to be a "unit with a wolf standard" when the power is summoned.
Because it talks about a unit in THAT assault phase being able to do X(summon the power of the wolf). In summoning this power it is implied that it grants the combat effects stated in the next line. So the standard is required for the summoning and the power of the wolf granted by the summoning gives the combat bonus, I.E even though the totem is gone the power of the wolf stay's with the unit.
"all models in THAT unit"
This could also be used to indicate the unit that had called upon the power of the wolf, and in doing so I would not be wrong in my statement. Using that is too broad a term, for it could used to reference the unit in many different way.
THAT unit at the time of the the summoning had a wolf totem.
THAT unit indicating the unit specifically from other units.
Well, for vheicles I found this FaQ, not sure why it would work any differently for other units:
Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule
nosferatu1001 wrote:"a unit that includes a wolf standard "
Present tense. As in, a unit that CURRENTLY includes a wolf standard
"all models in that unit"
All models in that unit that includes a wolf standard are allowed a reroll. Not includED, past tense, but includes.
You still need the standard alive otherwise the RULES state you dont get the benefits
You are adding personal commentary here. That is not what the rules say.
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf.
That defines who can call upon the power of the wolf and when, ie, a unit that includes a wolf standard and once per game.
For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of 1.
That defines duration, who is eligible, and effect, ie, all models in that unit.
Now when the power of the wolf was called is an independent event from when the effect and duration occurs. When the duration and effect occurs, you are directed to who it affects, ie, all models in that unit. At no time does the death of the wolf standard bearer retroactively erase calling upon the power of the wolf event previously completed. Neither does the death of the wolf standard bearer change the unit that consists of models in that unit.
The only absolute way that would be possible is if the unit only consisted of an IC and a wolf standard bearer where they called upon the power of the wolf and then the IC was separated either by casualty to the wolf standard bearer or movement out of the unit by the IC because the IC becomes a unit on his own. However, at no time whatsoever does the unit not become the unit that called upon the power of the wolf when the standard bearer dies. Despite your claims of being based in the rules, as pointed out above, you position is based on added personal commentary.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Comparing apples to monkeys, there.
I'd say more like apples to applesauce.
Fortune is well defined; this is still same/similar fruit, just slightly mushier.
I rarely disagree with you, but in this case I think Brother Ramses hit the nail on the head as far as parsing the rule.
It has a defined activation and a defined duration. Unless something changes one of those to conditions it should remain active.
Well the issue at hand is that nothing changes the unit. Nos maintains that the unit is somehow transformed into some other unit that had not called upon the power of the wolf. The unit that had a wolf standard did indeed call upon the power of the wolf. Just because the standard bearer has died when the effects of calling upon the power take place does not suddenly erase the unit that called upon the power. The unit and said models are still present.
Explaining context while adding your own commentary to the rule that does not exist is just re-writing the rule to make your argument. Not the first time with you and i am sure not your last.
You keep glossing over the fact that the Grey Hunter unit that called upon the power of the wolf is still the same unit.
What happens if an IC joins the Grey Hunter unit after they have called upon the power of the wolf, but before the next assault phase? By your standard, the IC was not part of THAT unit, except that when the assault phase comes around, he is part of THAT unit.
By all means, point out in the BRB where units become a different unit.
What, its the same "unit that includes a wolf standard"?
Thats so laughably wrong....
Edit: to make it clear. That isnt "commentary" - thats the actual rules. Please, use some actual rules to explain how the defined unit (one with a wolf standard) is suddenly NOT that unit, and you may have an argument. Also, please point out thge commentary - i was explaining context, to make it clear where others were dropping context, same as you are doing and same as you keep on ignoring. Youre changing the context and hoping people will ignore it. Not happening.
Nos, you are forcing your interpretation of the word 'that' in the sentence, all of your comments so far have been based on the assumption that your interpretation is correct. But it can be seen both ways. If you could provide a quote from the BRB defining that your interpretation of 'that' in this context is correct, I'm sure everyone would be happy, and old mate Grey Eldar who started the thread would get a solid answer. If you can't provide a defining quote, it would have to be up to old mate and his friends to work out.
In my experience playing my brother's wolves, if someone has removed the banner bearer from the unit, re-rolling ones won't matter too much at all with how many men would be left.
Nos, I respectfully disagree with you. I understand what you are saying, but believe there is something that you are not considering:
There are 2 points of time involved with the Wolf standard: the trigger point and then the effect.
The trigger point is anytime, so long as the unit includes a Wolf standard.
the effect is the very next assault phase, and the unit that triggered the standard benefits from it'[s abilities whether or not the standard is still there.
Also the word "That" in the rule is used in 2 different definitions:
This first is used as a subject of a relative clause (ex: the boy that cried wolf) it is defining the possession of a Wolf standard in the unit in order to call upon the Standards power.
The Second is used as a pronoun to indicate the same unit who had activated the standard's power(and thus had a wolf standard in it at activation), is the unit who benefits from the re-rolls. Ex: This suit fits better than that one.
P.S. the word "that" has so many articles of use that it was very hard to write the above uses without using the word "that" at all in them(I felt it would have been confusing to use the first defined use in the definition of the second use; the bit it would have been used in was: The Second is used as a pronoun to indicate the same unit that had activated the standard's power)
nosferatu1001 wrote:What, its the same "unit that includes a wolf standard"?
Thats so laughably wrong....
Edit: to make it clear. That isnt "commentary" - thats the actual rules. Please, use some actual rules to explain how the defined unit (one with a wolf standard) is suddenly NOT that unit, and you may have an argument. Also, please point out thge commentary - i was explaining context, to make it clear where others were dropping context, same as you are doing and same as you keep on ignoring. Youre changing the context and hoping people will ignore it. Not happening.
As has been in several other instances your added commentary, not based in the rules, supports your flawed argument and thus you try and stand on your little mountain proclaiming that you are right. As before, you proof is based on what you add to the rule to make you right.
"That unit is still present, albeit with one less model. The unit still exists and that is all the rule cares about and that is all that the rule compells you to follow.
"the effect is the very next assault phase, and the unit that triggered the standard benefits from it'[s abilities whether or not the standard is still there."
Thats my contention - that "that unit" must refer to "the unit with a wolf standard" to retain context - the only "unit" within grasp of the power, surely? I get your use on "that", but I see it as a different "that" - for both "units" mentioned they must be the unit with the wolf standard. If you dont have a wolf standard any longer, you are a different unit to the one mentioned.
BR - so, you were unable to point anything out as commentary, or use rules, as requested. Also if you could at least keep your ad hominems about me relevant to just this thread, it would be a help. Hard to counter "as has been in several other instances" when you wont even point them out in this thread, nor counter the point on context which you keep dropping.
Loss of the standard would not change the unit into a new unit, it is still the same unit that activated the standard.
If instead of just saying "that Unit", they had had added the words "containing a(or the) wolf standard"; then you would be correct in that the standard would still have to be in the unit.
But the unit is still the same unit(it is still "that unit") no matter who in that unit gets killed. To say that the unit is a different unit when the Wolf standard bearer is killed would mean that any of the USR's Logan Grimnar gives the unit he is with get negated if any models from that unit die(because the High king is not dependent on logan even remaining with the unit, he and his unit benefit for the rest of the turn). Or If Ragnar War Howls and a unit within 12" has a model die before I-step 5; it is no longer the same unit as received the war howl and as such none of their models benefit from Furious charge. Do you see how they must still be the same unit?
OK Nos, I am with you concerning RAI. The unit should have the wolf standard still alive in order to profit from it. At least it should survive until the relevant assault phase.
But I don't see a mistake in the OPs argumentation, though I see one in yours.
You say, having a model with a wolf standard is necessary to be "that" unit. This is imo not the correct definition of "that" in this context, because there could be other units with a wolf standard and following your argumentation would mean, that the rule applies to any unit with a wolf standard.
If you say that after the wolf standard bearer died the unit is no longer exactly the same, I ask: What happens after the first regular dies? The unit is not exactly the same as before...
In my opinion, "that unit" simply means "the unit upon which power of the wolf has been cast". So if you call this unit "Squad Alpha", does it remain "Squad Alpha" after the wolf standard died? I say, yes.
So the wolf standard is necessary for casting and thats it. Sadly...
No, I am saying "that unit" is "a unit that contains a wolf standard", from the first part of the rule.
We have a definition for "that unit": "a unit that contains a wolf standard" (that activated it - necessary condition for us to be discussing the rule)
Contains is present tense. If it contained a wolf standard, it isnt "that unit" any longer - it is "a unit that contained a wolf standard"
" Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."
That unit clearly references "a unit that includes a wolf standard"
Since the wolf standard is no longer there "That unit" is no longer "a unit that includes a wolf standard" so the power does not work.
But that is this whole argument, the interpretation of 'that' in the sentence. You are just making the same argument as nos, just claiming that the 'that' means what you interpret it to be. It is not able to be defined unless they faq it, in my opinion, because it is too subjective.
I happen to agree with Nos. If you actually read the sentence it is clear that "That unit" is referring to the "a unit that includes a wolf standard" clause in the previous sentence.
This is because the second sentence does not make any sense without the first.
This proves that they are referring to a unit that includes a wolf standard.
It is on you to disprove this.
Also, the FaQ ruled, for vehicles, that any upgrades or special rules vehicles have, cease to work once it is destroyed.
Why would it work differently for Infantry models?
Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
Just break down the rule.
"Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf."
Sets the standard when, who, and how many times the power of the wolf can be called upon.
"For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."
Set the timing, duration, who is eligible and what it means to to use the power of the wolf.
The unit has called upon the power of the wolf. Not the wolf standard nor the wolf standard bearer, but the unit. When the next Assault Phase comes around, it is the unit that previously called upon the power of the wolf. Again, not the wolf standard or the wolf standard bearer, but the unit.
There is where adding personal commentary fails. The unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the spirit of the wolf is still present the next Assault Phase.
By the standard of arbitrarily changing units based on casualties, a normal Grey Hunter dying in the movement phase, would not longer make the unit the same either and thus would not get to re-roll any dice rolls of 1. By that imaginary standard, THAT unit that contains a 10 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard is not THAT unit that contains 9 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard.
Just like the Blood Angels Blood Chalice that grants FNP and Furious charge to a unit within 6" if the Priest with the chalice dies at initiative 6 in a combat, the marines that strike at I4 do not get the +1 str/ +1 Init.
They will rule it how they ruled vehicles. Any upgrades or special rules vehicles have, cease to work once it is destroyed.
Why would it work differently for Infantry models?
Brother Ramses wrote:By the standard of arbitrarily changing units based on casualties, a normal Grey Hunter dying in the movement phase, would not longer make the unit the same either and thus would not get to re-roll any dice rolls of 1. By that imaginary standard, THAT unit that contains a 10 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard is not THAT unit that contains 9 Grey Hunters with a wolf standard.
Good luck THAT one.
This is not true, "that unit", that contains 10 Grey Hunters "that includes a wolf standard", is "that unit" that contains 9 Grey Hunters "that includes a wolf standard".
Since that unit still includes a wolf standard.
Once it becomes 9 grey hunters without a wolf standard, it is no longer "a unit that includes a wolf standard"
"who is eligible" is "a unit that includes a wolf standard", as defined by the first part of the rule.
Stop dropping the who to only be "a unit". Otherwise ANY unit gains the benefit - after all theyre "a unit", arent they?
And, again, stop with your "adding personal commentary" nonsense. Since you are unable to show any and are unable to refute the argument except by ignoring parts of the rules (again, at least youre consistent) I'd suggest "gracefully" retiring.
Who gains the benefit, is who triggered the ability.
The "Who can trigger" is a unit that contains a Standard.
The Benefit goes to the unit that triggered the ability.
The benefit itself does not require the standard, it merely requires the activation of the ability, which itself, requires a standard.
This seems to be one of those rare cases where a GW author decided to have a trigger with a later effect, and wrote in for that later effect to still occur whether or not the option to trigger it remains on table.
DR: The Blood Chalice and Vehicle upgrades are vastly different: they require the benefiting unit to be within x" from them; so if they are removed from table, or you move outside of x", then of course you could not benefit from being within x". The Wolf standard requires the unit to contain one in order to trigger the effect, but then the unit that triggered it("that unit") gains the benefit no matter where they are in relation to the standard(including it no longer being on table) when the benefit time comes.
Kel - the upgrade in question does not require you to be within X", just for you to have made an assault move the same turn you disembarked from the Crusader. In practice you need to be within 6", but this isnt a requirement. It is an exactly analogous situation.
The benefit only applies to "that unit", which is "a unit that contains a wolf standard"
nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - the upgrade in question does not require you to be within X", just for you to have made an assault move the same turn you disembarked from the Crusader. In practice you need to be within 6", but this isnt a requirement. It is an exactly analogous situation.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. That is not a Snarky comment, I seriously do not know which upgrade you are referring to. i was referring to things like grisly trophies or Torment grenade launchers(both requiring a unit to be within 6" of the vehicle). Frag assault launchers also still work even if the LRC is destroyed, because the unit did assault after disembarking from the crusader
nosferatu1001 wrote:The benefit only applies to "that unit", which is "a unit that contains a wolf standard"
No it is not. If it were then there is no need to ever activate it, or, when 1 unit activates it any/every unit that contains a wolf standard benefits.
"That unit" must refer to the unit that calls upon the power(triggers the effect), otherwise the "once per game" limitation is removed, or the activation itself is.
Do you also claim that the benefit is lost when the Wolf standard dies to an attack during the benefiting assault phase? Or how about when the standard bearer dies on his way into the assault during the benefiting phase(via that 1-in36 chance of rolling 2 "1's" for dangerous terrain)?
Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule
Kommissar Kel wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about here. That is not a Snarky comment, I seriously do not know which upgrade you are referring to. i was referring to things like grisly trophies or Torment grenade launchers(both requiring a unit to be within 6" of the vehicle). Frag assault launchers also still work even if the LRC is destroyed, because the unit did assault after disembarking from the crusader
As I have posted earlier, and now Nos has posted, the Frag assault launchers do not work if the LRC is destroyed. In fact you can not even assault out of a destroyed LR that rammed, since you have moved and the Assault Vehicle rule no longer applies.
As long as people arbitrarily add their own commentary to the debate as their, "proof" this discussion is useless. The hilarious part is that it is basic grammar as pointed out, not some self-created definition of what the word, "THAT".
1. Once per game,
Not three times per game or ten times per game.
2. a unit that includes a wolf standard
Not a unit that contains a monkey standard or does not contain a wolf standard.
3. may call upon the power of the wolf.
ACTIVATION!!!!!!
4. For the duration of the next Assault Phase,
Not the current Assault Phase, not the Movement Phase, or not the Shooting Phase.
5. all models in that unit
Not models in another unit, not models in a unit that called upon the power of the monkey, or models that did not have a wolf standard to call upon the power of the wolf. JUST the models in the unit that called upon the power of the wolf can then move onto the next step.
6. may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
EFFECT!
For the imaginary rules writers, what you need is the rule to say,
"Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard can re-roll any dice rolls of a 1 for the duration of an Assault Phase."
You are golden if the effect of re-rolling dice rolls of 1 was tied into having a wolf standard except that is not how the rule is written. The effect of re-rolling dice rolls of 1 is tied into the unit calling upon the power of the wolf.
Read the above breakdown but stop adding,
"THAT unit is THAT unit which includes a wolf standard"
to step 5 because that is not the rule. It isn't the unit that includes a wolf standard that is eligible to re-roll dice rolls of 1, it is the unit that called upon the power of the wolf that is eligible to re-roll dice rolls of 1.
A unit that includes a wolf standard can run around all game but never able to re-roll dice rolls of 1. Why? Because the unit never called upon the power of the wolf thus allowing them to re-roll dice rolls of 1.
Kel - GW consistently rule that you must be in range / be alive / still be a unit at the time you wish to use the rule. THats why Infantry are unlikely to be ruled differently
The Frag Launcher rule is exactly analogous to this situation, and we know how GW ruled that one.
BR - yawn. Your argument still ignores what "that" unit is.
That unit is not the unit that includes a wolf standard. Keep trying to change the rules Nos to make your argument valid and keep failing at it.
I can have 6 Grey Hunter units, all of them including wolf standards and yet not a single one of them can re-roll dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase.
However, I can have 6 Grey Hunter units, that include a wolf standard, call upon the power of the wolf. Then and only then are they allowed to re-roll any dice rolls of 1.
That is where your utter fail comes in, you tie the effect (re-rolling any dice rolls of 1) into possession of the wolf standard. That is not RAW. The effect (re-rolling of any dice rolls of 1) is tied into calling upon the power of the wolf.
1. Inclusion of a wolf standard allows calling upon power of the wolf. STOP!
2. Calling upon power of the wolf allows re-rolling of any 1 in the next Assault Phase. STOP!
As I have pointed out, a Grey Hunter unit can run around all game with a wolf standard and NOT be able to re-roll dice rolls of 1, UNLESS the unit calls upon the power of the wolf. The effect is tied into calling upon the power of the wolf, not possession of the wolf standard.
I'm not changing the rules - "that unit" is defined, it was "unit with a wolf standard" that activated it in the first place. You keep dropping context, repeatedly
Actually the "power of the wolf" is whats known as fluff. im sure youre aware of what that is, yes?
Seriously, enough with the ad hominems. You appear incapable of actually arguing the point and not the person or adding commentary that has nothing to do with the argument. I'd say I'm shocked....
As usual arguing with you is less than productive. Bye.
BR's argument only ignores your definition of what "that unit" is.
Let me give you an example of why your definition cannot be the definition they are going for(or at least a huge available exploit based on your definition):
2 Grey hunter units, both with Wolf Standards, they will be designated Unit A, and Unit B.
SW players turn; Unit A is in a razorback, Unit B is on foot. Unit A's razor back move s in the movement phase, and Unit B walks. Unit A's razorback fires in the Shooting phase, Unit B fires only assault weapons + pistols and activates their Wolf standard(this is their once per game activation), Unit B is in assault range of the enemy unit they just shot at. SW assault phase Unit B assaults the enemy unit they just shot at and benefits from their activation of the Wolf standard(everything right now is copacetic with both interpretations of "that unit") at the end of the combat the Wolf standard bearer model is still alive, and Unit B is locked in combat. Enemy movement phase: Unit A(still safely inside their Razorback) activates their Wolf standard(this is again still following the Once per game portion of the rule). The opponent looks perplexed and decides not to even shoot at, nor assault the razorback(let's say it is in a position that makes it inconsequential), shooting phase goes off without a hitch. Assault phase: SW player now states that Unit B receives the benefit of Unit A's Wolf standard because by your definition it is "that unit'(which is "a unit that contains a wolf standard"); and a wolf standard has been activated.
Do you see now why "that unit" must be defined as "the unit that activated the wolf standard"(or rather "called upon the power of the wolf")?
Then you have the Duration of the benefit: "the duration of the next assault phase". "That unit", being the unit that activated the ability; has a benefit for the listed duration; this can be seen as analogous with Grimnar's "high king" rule; with lasts the duration of the turn whether or not Grimnar stays with the unit.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually the "power of the wolf" is whats known as fluff.
This claim does require some pretty severe changing of the rules.
Declaring these undefined terms(which are obvious from context to be analogous to "activate the wolf standard") to be Fluff, and thus not rules would turn the first portion of the rules into this: "Once per game, a unit that contains a wolf standard may."
That then leaves us with further complications. now we have an incomplete rule, so the Once per game bit can be thrown out the window because we do not know what can be done once per game.
So we move on to the next bit: "For the duration of the next assault phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."
Ok so there are some hard rules in there... but wait, now we have 0 definition of what "that unit" means because we had to throw out the first part of the rule since it does nothing at all. Actually, your definition of "that unit" can be used here because while we do not even know what can be done once per game, we are already talking about "a unit that contains a wolf standard". Now, since the second portion of the rule has some actual rules we can see that "For the duration of the next assault phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."... but wait, "Next assault phase"? Next assault phase from when? shouldn't it be "For the duration of every assault phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.", I mean with it being Next assault phase that would mean that it would never come into play because we have no reference points in time for the next assault phase to occur from.
nosferatu1001 wrote:I'm not changing the rules - "that unit" is defined, it was "unit with a wolf standard" that activated it in the first place. You keep dropping context, repeatedly
Actually the "power of the wolf" is whats known as fluff. im sure youre aware of what that is, yes?
Seriously, enough with the ad hominems. You appear incapable of actually arguing the point and not the person or adding commentary that has nothing to do with the argument. I'd say I'm shocked....
As usual arguing with you is less than productive. Bye.
Nos, you keep adding,
"that unit with the wolf standard."
Care to point out the page number with that text? Or is it only in the Nos edition of the BRB?
And fluff has now been indictated to be included in the rules per GW with the new codexes. It is essential in this case and you are trying to use the now defunct argument that fluff =/= rules.
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
Without the "fluff" that you want to dismiss, how is the wolf standard activated per RAW? Let me act like you for a moment and create some BroRam rules,
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may activate it. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
Oh look, my argument still stands by taking out the "fluff" because the effect (re-rolling any dice rolls of 1) is still tied into activation and NOT inclusion of the wolf standard.
BR - and /ignore. Apparently you cant argue without attacking the person, in violation of the rules of the forum. I'm not actually putting you on ignore, because being able to see your attacks on other posters and to be able to report them is kinda important.
KK - "a unit that includes a wolf standard that has called upon the power" - fully defines the unit.
So we are now fully defining the unit that is eligible to re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase? Where is that found in the rule?
The RAW of the rule tells us the following;
To call upon the power of the wolf you need to have a wolf standard in the unit.
To re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase, the unit must have called upon the power of the wolf.
That it it.
There is no RAW that the wolf standard must be in the unit to be able to re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase. There is no RAW that requires that you fully define the unit to include the wolf standard to re-roll any dice rolls of 1 in the next Assault Phase.
There was a drinking game back in college that we used to play with new friends, GWAR (Game Without Any Rules). We just arbitrarily made up rules as we were drinking, pretty much ensuring that our new friend would be drinking copious amounts of booze based upon our "rules". You would have been great at that game Nos.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Not changed the argument, explaining what I was meaning all the way through.
Still violating rule 1
Do you even know the rules here or are adding your personal commentary to them as well?
Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC):
1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give a basis for a statement; without this, there can be no debate.
1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.
1. You are adding commentary to the rule to make your view appear correct. "That unit is that unit which includes a wolf standard" is your commentary and is NOT the RAW. You call it context, I call it commentary. Either way, it is not the rule as written.
1a. Your opinion that you think adding your personal commentary to the rule (that is not founded in the RAW) as the proof that your opinion is correct is wrong. Prove that you are right using the rule, not what you create or add to the rule.
I want to see a quote from the BGB that says that if a piece of wargear is lost, in this case due to a casualty, it's activated ability, which has been activated, is negated.
I know static abilities are always lost (ie. Brotherhood Banner for GKs, if you loose the banner that unit no longer gets +1 attack per model)
Brother Ramses wrote: 1. You are adding commentary to the rule to make your view appear correct. "That unit is that unit which includes a wolf standard" is your commentary and is NOT the RAW. You call it context, I call it commentary. Either way, it is not the rule as written.
It is not commentary, it is basic reading comprehension.
"Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."
Lets break it down: Once per a game(Times it can be used per game(Rules)), a unit that includes a wolf standard(Target of the power(Rules)) may call upon the power of the wolf(Fluff).
For the duration of the next Assualt Phase(When it works(Rules)), all models in that unit(Reference to the Target of the power(Rules)) may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1(What the special rule does(Rules)).
As far as the rules go, "all models in that unit" reference the (Target of the power) which is "a unit that includes a wolf standard".
No wolf standard in a unit, then there are no models in the unit that includes a wolf standard.
CrashCanuck wrote:I want to see a quote from the BGB that says that if a piece of wargear is lost, in this case due to a casualty, it's activated ability, which has been activated, is negated.
I know static abilities are always lost (ie. Brotherhood Banner for GKs, if you loose the banner that unit no longer gets +1 attack per model)
The also ruled on other things that grant bonuses like a blood chalice in the FaQ:
Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52) A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model makes its close combat attacks
And as has been pointed out to Nos, the "fluff" that you want to deride is how the power is activated thus breaking the defunct, fluff =/= rules argument.
The Blood Angels FAQ referencing the Blood Chalice is a nice little tidbit, however it is addressing an always on, "bubble" effect. Whereas the wolf standard is specifically activated or as the rule tells us, "the power of the wolf is called upon."
You check to see if you are within the Blood Chalice "bubble" when you make your attacks to see if you get FnP and FC. You do not check if you have a wolf standard in your unit when you roll a 1 in the next Assault Phase, you check to see if the unit, "called upon the power of the wolf."
CrashCanuck wrote:I want to see a quote from the BGB that says that if a piece of wargear is lost, in this case due to a casualty, it's activated ability, which has been activated, is negated.
I know static abilities are always lost (ie. Brotherhood Banner for GKs, if you loose the banner that unit no longer gets +1 attack per model)
The also ruled on other things that grant bonuses like a blood chalice in the FaQ:
Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of
a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the
model makes its close combat attacks
Blood chalice would be a static ability(as in always in effect, not requiring and "activation"); it is also an ability that is purely dependent on proximity to the bearer.
As far as your RC breakdown, there is a failure when it comes to some of your assertions; not in the comprehension itself, but in the application.
DeathReaper wrote:As far as the rules go, "all models in that unit" reference the (Target of the power) which is "a unit that includes a wolf standard".
"That unit" would not be the target of the power(because there is no target), "that unit" can only mean the unit that activated the power; Yes, at activation, the unit was required to contain the Wolf standard, but the effect of that activation does not require the Wolf standard to remain in the unit, this is covered by the duration to the power(throughout the entirety of the next assault phase).
You would not claim that the unit loses the benefit of the standard if the Standard bearer dies to a higher-I wound, or to a Dangerous terrain test when making the assault move would you?
The last sentence if fallacious: No wolf standard in a unit that already activated the standard(but before the next assault phase), is still the same unit that activated the Wolf standard, and as such is That(pointing motion) unit.
Brother Ramses wrote:And as has been pointed out to Nos, the "fluff" that you want to deride is how the power is activated thus breaking the defunct, fluff =/= rules argument.
the wolf standard is specifically activated or as the rule tells us, "the power of the wolf is called upon."... "called upon the power of the wolf."
Both of your quotes above are fluff.
If they are not, could you please show us rules how one calls upon the power of the wolf?
As shown, the rules state that "all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1" we know "That unit" means "a unit that includes a wolf standard"
Brother Ramses wrote:And as has been pointed out to Nos, the "fluff" that you want to deride is how the power is activated thus breaking the defunct, fluff =/= rules argument.
the wolf standard is specifically activated or as the rule tells us, "the power of the wolf is called upon."... "called upon the power of the wolf."
Both of your quotes above are fluff.
If they are not, could you please show us rules how one calls upon the power of the wolf?
As shown, the rules state that "all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1" we know "That unit" means "a unit that includes a wolf standard"
this is proven.
I already pointed out if you choose to ignore that part of the rule as fluff, then the whole rule ceases to function.
You cannot describe in rules term how you "call upon the power of the wolf"(unless you read this as activating the ability), therefore you ignore all of the first rule line, since you no longer have any definition of what the unit may do once per game.
Then you cannot define a starting point for you to get to the "next" assault phase, therefore you never get to use the re-rolls.
Brother Ramses wrote:And as has been pointed out to Nos, the "fluff" that you want to deride is how the power is activated thus breaking the defunct, fluff =/= rules argument.
the wolf standard is specifically activated or as the rule tells us, "the power of the wolf is called upon."... "called upon the power of the wolf."
Both of your quotes above are fluff.
If they are not, could you please show us rules how one calls upon the power of the wolf?
As shown, the rules state that "all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1" we know "That unit" means "a unit that includes a wolf standard"
this is proven.
"Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."
That emboldened part right there DR? That would be how one calls upon the power of the wolf.
How about an exercise?
What unit can call upon the power of the wolf? A unit that includes a wolf standard.
What unit can re-roll any dice rolls of 1? A unit that called upon the power of the wolf.
That is the RAW. I know you want the last one to read,
What unit can re-roll any dice rolls of 1? A unit that called upon the power of the wolf and includes a wolf standard.
But sadly that is not the RAW. You have no other requirement then that the unit that called upon the power of the wolf is the only unit able to re-roll dice rolls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here DR, I will do you a favor and just copy/paste from my previous post:
Without the "fluff" that you want to dismiss, how is the wolf standard activated per RAW? Let me act like you for a moment and create some BroRam rules,
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may activate it. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
Oh look, my argument still stands by taking out the "fluff" because the effect (re-rolling any dice rolls of 1) is still tied into activation and NOT inclusion of the wolf standard.
That does not explain how to "call upon the power of the wolf" there are no rules on how to "call upon the power of the wolf" taken the context it most likely means activating the power.
Q: So who can activate the power?
A: A unit that includes a wolf standard
Q: Why may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1?
A: That unit
Q: What unit?
A: the unit that includes a wolf standard that called upon the power of the wolf (activated the power)
DeathReaper wrote:That does not explain how to "call upon the power of the wolf" there are no rules on how to "call upon the power of the wolf" taken the context it most likely means activating the power.
Q: So who can activate the power?
A: A unit that includes a wolf standard
Q: Why may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1?
A: That unit
Q: What unit?
A: the unit that includes a wolf standard that called upon the power of the wolf (activated the power)
No wolf Standard in the unit, no Re-rolls.
This is RAW
The above emboldened is where you are adding a requirement that is not RAW. The RAW is the unit that, "called upon the power of the wolf" or since you need it explained, the unit that activated the wolf standard.
Woooooooooo! SEMANTICS! Yea! Attempting to apply order to chaos one overanalyzed sentance at a time. This argument is looking like a rabbit-duck:
So which is it? A rabbit or a duck?
As an upgrade item assigned to a specific model, I'm inclined to agree that once the model with the upgrade is removed from play, the effects it provides are no longer available to the unit. Aspect Warrior Exarch abilities and the like are no longer available to the squad if the exarch is killed.
However, in this case the effect the upgrade provides has been activated and the cause-effect instructions of the upgrade seems to indicate that the Wolf Standard is a specific exception to this rule. My interpretation of the rule as it is written says nothing about the Wolf Standard model being required to be in the unit in the following assualt phase, only to be in the unit at the time "the power of the wolf is called upon". I'd give my opponent the chance to dice me for it if he disagreed. After all, I'm a gentleman.
I'm not married to the idea though, seeing as there may be broader implications for armies as a whole if nos' and DR's argument holds true. How would this affect my army with Pedro Kantor and scoring Sternguard? If Pedro dies, he is no longer in the army. Do my Sternguard no longer have Hold the Line as a result? I don't have my codex on hand, so I can't see the exact wording for the rule, but the concept falls in the same broad question: do models that provide a permanent or temporary effect still provide that effect after their removal if the qualifications for the effect is in play prior to their removal?
DeathReaper wrote:As shown, the rules state that "all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1" we know "That unit" means "a unit that includes a wolf standard"
this is proven.
This is not proven. You just say it is. You and Nos agree on this, but you do not manage to convince anyone else, so you just say 'its proven' and leave it at that? That doesn't prove it, you have to keep going and actually prove it.
And you continue to use examples for vehicles and static bonuses (like the blood chalice) to explain something completely different which has an activation. They aren't the same, you can't just draw an imaginary line between the two and says 'that proves it, ta dah' and stand there panting with the rabbit you just pulled.
"Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."
Q: So who can activate the power? A: A unit that includes a wolf standard
Q: Who may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1? A: That unit
Q: What unit? A: the unit that includes a wolf standard that called upon the power of the wolf (activated the power)
No wolf Standard in the unit, no Re-rolls.
This proves it, now find rules to refute this or concede the point.
But you aren't writing rules. Those Q and A aren't rules. I don't have to find rules to refute your opinion, unless you have to find rules to refute mine. And I mean real rules, not FAQs you make up in your mind and write up here to justify your opinion.
Actually, nos and DR have convinced someone besides each other that they're right. I just don't feel like arguing in the thread. Have fun with your incorrect assumptions though.
motyak wrote: You and Nos agree on this, but you do not manage to convince anyone else, so you just say 'its proven' and leave it at that?
motyak wrote:That's nice mate, contribute then, and help the discussion, help stop incorrect assumptions.
I did.
Nos and DR have convinced me, and my posting would only clutter the thread. I wouldn't say anything different from what they are, so I see no reason to post.
Ok then.
As an aside, how would someone lose their wolf totem before an assault. The only way I can think of is with a DT test, because it can't be picked out of a unit by someone with high initiative, and if someone like that does lay enough smack onto your unit to kill the bearer, who would normally be one of the last guys given the flick, i doubt rerolling the 1's which come up from the 4 or 5 attacks you have in reply will do too much...
But I remain unconvinced that Nos, DR and rigy's interpretation of 'that' is the correct one. And don't repost your self written questions and answers DR, they answer them in the way you interpret it.
motyak wrote:Ok then.
As an aside, how would someone lose their wolf totem before an assault. The only way I can think of is with a DT test, because it can't be picked out of a unit by someone with high initiative, and if someone like that does lay enough smack onto your unit to kill the bearer, who would normally be one of the last guys given the flick, i doubt rerolling the 1's which come up from the 4 or 5 attacks you have in reply will do too much...
But I remain unconvinced that Nos, DR and rigy's interpretation of 'that' is the correct one. And don't repost your self written questions and answers DR, they answer them in the way you interpret it.
Calling it in before your enemies shooting phase in which the situation happens to be that thier is a good chance that the bearer will die and so before he dies you call the power thusly allowing you to treat him with less importnace for his ability has been used and you no longer have to guard it or worry that he will die in the line of fire. ANd as you said DT is a vialbe cause for worry.
Oh right, forgot you could call it in their turn too. Cheers.
I still reckon they should still benefit. Even if the totem is dead and falls, they'd just be so enraged at his death that they'd re-roll ones!
Atleast that'd be cool...
motyak wrote:But you aren't writing rules. Those Q and A aren't rules. I don't have to find rules to refute your opinion, unless you have to find rules to refute mine. And I mean real rules, not FAQs you make up in your mind and write up here to justify your opinion.
Actually I am writing rules.
Those are the questions you need to ask to determine what the rules are. Those answers are the rules, in this case.
If those questions are not asked, how do you know what the rule does?
motyak wrote:Those answers are all based on your determination of the word 'that'. It is a 50/50 call, it'll be up to players in each situation to be decided.
You mean based on the first sentences determination of the word 'that'
I did not make that determination, the first sentence made that determination.
It says 'That unit', what is it referring to? The unit that is described in the first sentence.
It could also refer to 'that unit' as the unit which had the upgrade at some point, the unit which had the wolf standard activated in it, regardless of it's current presence. Nowhere does it explicitly say it isn't this unit. That is why it can't be decided, why we cannot agree. Not because I can't see that you have a point, you do, but there are two sides to it, two interpretations. Not just yours.
It can only be referring to the first sentence, since 'That unit' is not defined in the second sentence.
the first sentence says "Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf."
So 'That unit' has to be referring to 'a unit that includes a wolf standard'.
No, that is your interpretation. You cannot just state that something is the standard English interpretation and expect people to meekly accept it. Because you do not define what English as a language is. You cannot say 'this is definitely how it is' because it is not a matter of a 'standard interpretation'. There are two, equally valid interpretations.
Yes, it says a unit that includes a wolf standard. That is for the activation. It has to be defined, that is why it is. The second one is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Not bound by the previous sentence. Do not impose restrictions which do not exist.
It is open to either side to decide, and will have to be decided pre-game by the players unless it is answered by Games Workshop in an official FAQ on this topic specifically, not vehicles, not blood chalice's , but on this topic, because it is different to those others in several ways.
motyak wrote:No, that is your interpretation. You cannot just state that something is the standard English interpretation and expect people to meekly accept it. Because you do not define what English as a language is. You cannot say 'this is definitely how it is' because it is not a matter of a 'standard interpretation'. There are two, equally valid interpretations.
Reading comprehension, and the English language disagree with your argument here.
motyak wrote:Yes, it says a unit that includes a wolf standard. That is for the activation. It has to be defined, that is why it is. The second one is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Not bound by the previous sentence. Do not impose restrictions which do not exist.
No its not ambiguous and open to interpretation, if it were the second sentence would be a stand alone sentence, but it is not.
motyak wrote:It is open to either side to decide, and will have to be decided pre-game by the players unless it is answered by Games Workshop in an official FAQ on this topic specifically, not vehicles, not blood chalice's , but on this topic, because it is different to those others in several ways.
Again, not open for either side to decide, since the second sentence is not a stand alone sentence.
Look at the context. Does the second sentence make any sense without the first?
"For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1." This sentence means nothing without the first. that unit relies on a pre-defined unit from the earlier sentence.
Death Reaper, you do not rule what the English language does and does not disagree with. You think it disagrees with me, that is your view. I think you are being inflexible and refusing to understand that it can be seen both ways.
Yes, it is open for them to decide. And my argument doesn't rest on the second sentence standing by itself, do not try to tell me what I am arguing. Instead, read without extrapolating. My argument is that the first sentence is only concerning the activation. This means that the second sentence need not stand alone.
The interpretation of these rules which has the first sentence as an activation allows for the 'that' in the second sentence to mean what I believe it means, that being that it is the same unit, with or without the standard. Before you can make assumptions about the sole way that it should be interpreted in the English language, you have to eliminate the other scenarios which mean it cannot be interpreted that way.
Or, if you do not want to eliminate them, you can agree that it can be seen both ways and is up to the players to decide, pending an FAQ.
Yes, it references the first sentence, because that is when it is activated. If it did not reference the first sentence, it would make no sense. But the first sentence does not mandate that the 'that' from the second sentence means what you claim it to mean. The first sentence is the activation, the second sentence limits who benefits from the rule, being the unit which activated it. Now the unit which activated it which still has the wolf standard. Just the unit which activated it.
And please stop saying things like 'permissive ruleset does not allow for anything other than...', because phrases like that work of the assumption you are correct. An assumption which is not correct.
So lets go with the argument that the second sentence "that" doesn't refer to having the wolf standard.
"For the duration of the next Assualt Phase, all models in a unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1."
So you get to nominate a unit? I can pop a wolf standard to make some other unit reroll ones?
The second sentence only ever makes sense if you include the wolf standard requirement. Saying you don't need it means you are using the second sentence as I posted.
I never said change the 'that' to an 'an'. You have just conjured that from nothing.
I claim that the 'that' doesn't require the wolf standard to still be there. Not nominate another unit, I never said that in any of my argument. If I was unclear and you interpreted something as meaning that, quote it for me and I can edit it to make more sense, apologies.
My interpretation is that;
"For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of one"
My argument is not that the 'that' changes into an 'an'. It is that the 'that' has a different meaning to what you are claiming. That it is the same unit, regardless of the presence of the wolf standard in the assault phase. It requires the standard to activate, which happens in the first sentence. Then in the second sentence, it is referring to that same unit.
If it helps, I can explain it as 'that same unit on the army list'. It is the same unit, even if some members have died. I believe that if you claim the unit is a different unit because the bearer of the wolf standard has perished, as you are, then if any members died, it changes it from 'that' unit to a completely different one. I know that this is not what you mean, but if the loss of the wolf standard changes the unit, would the loss of the pack leader or wolf guard attached not also change it? Because it is not the same unit which called upon the power, it is different after casualties.
That is why I think that the 'that' means that the unit is just the unit in the army list, or the unit which takes up that part of the force organization chart. And that it does not require the wolf standard to still be present to benefit, just to activate it.
motyak wrote:I never said change the 'that' to an 'an'. You have just conjured that from nothing.
I claim that the 'that' doesn't require the wolf standard to still be there. Not nominate another unit, I never said that in any of my argument. If I was unclear and you interpreted something as meaning that, quote it for me and I can edit it to make more sense, apologies.
All I did was replace the word "that" with the phrase from the first sentence that describes the unit, minus the wolf standard requirement. Since your argument is that the wolf standard requirement isn't valid in the second sentence, I removed it.
If it helps, I can explain it as 'that same unit on the army list'. It is the same unit, even if some members have died. I believe that if you claim the unit is a different unit because the bearer of the wolf standard has perished, as you are, then if any members died, it changes it from 'that' unit to a completely different one. I know that this is not what you mean, but if the loss of the wolf standard changes the unit, would the loss of the pack leader or wolf guard attached not also change it? Because it is not the same unit which called upon the power, it is different after casualties.
There is a difference, with respect to this pair of sentences, between losing the standard bearer and losing the pack leader. The pack leader is never mentioned as a requirement of the power at any time. The standard bearer is - and the second sentence references that requirement.
That is why I think that the 'that' means that the unit is just the unit in the army list, or the unit which takes up that part of the force organization chart. And that it does not require the wolf standard to still be present to benefit, just to activate it.
I understand your thought process, I just believe you're wrong.
In regards to the first bit of your response, my view doesn't necessitate the removal of the 'that', you did that on your own volition.
For the second part, the second sentence only states the requirement in your point of view, not mine.
Finally the third part, yeah, I think we are pretty much just butting heads here, me and you and me and death reaper, we aren't really making any headway, and we aren't helping old mate who started the thread much I don't think. I'll just call it here, he can judge from the thread what he wants to do. Hope the whole argument/discussion thing never got out of hand. He can follow yours or mine, either way the point is he has fun, right?
But it was amazing for procrastination. Damn uni assignments ha.
motyak wrote:In regards to the first bit of your response, my view doesn't necessitate the removal of the 'that', you did that on your own volition.
"That", when used as a reference, needs to be interchangeable with what you're referring to. If it's not, it's being used wrong.
Since it should be interchangeable, I tried your interpretation. It didn't make sense.
But yeah - there's enough info here for the OP to figure out for himself.
Start around :31 and we'll have a summary of this thread...
rigeld2, motyak's entire point is that you can't agree on the grammatical interpretation of the rule. I happen to agree on that point, but also agree that there's some broader implications if your own interpretation is correct (per my earlier post). That said, ask to dice it off like a gentleman to avoid being TFG.
*My account was abused by a friend I allowed to use it to post an argumentative and unrepentantly rude text, please disregard my last post in this forum, I apologize to this forum, and to the members mentioned in the post* Have a great day everyone I will now go hide my self in shame
See the tenets of the forum. Assuming we're not SW players is making a BIG mistake. Your ad hominem attacks are noted
Also - my weapons dont remove you - the Remove Casualties rule does. That rule doesnt go away. Your fallacious attempt at arguing rules is ignored. when you hagve a real argument, try it here.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Oh wow!! If I had to play against EITHER you, nos, or deathreaper, as a space wolves player and you pulled this worthless attempt at gimping an army you don't like, I would promptly start replacing all the models of mine you killed, back on the table if the unit of yours that destroyed them had been destroyed. Because by your "logic" your units don't exist anymore to have used their weapons to kill mine, therefore I removed them mistakenly.
Nice straw man - that's not at all anything like what we've said.
If you earnestly think that the rule for wolf standards is interpreted in the way you three claim, I have a hard time believing you have anything but the most basic of high school reading levels.
I'd be happy to show you my unofficial college transcript (that shows I don't have a degree) that shows otherwise, or list the books I read.. but it wouldn't be worth feeding this attack.
Per the space wolves codex: Once per game, for a unit that includes a wolf standard, may call on the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next assault phase, all models in that unit may reroll any dice rolls of 1.
Yes, we've had the rules posted in this thread more than a couple of times. Thanks for adding another.
Calling on the power of the wolf, per the rule, would be the same M.O. as calling a waaagh as an ork player. There is no "rule" for how to call a waaagh, and I cannot believe that ANYONE would be so asinine as tell the ork player "therefore you cannot call a waaagh."
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. There absolutely are rules for both calling a waaagh and using a wolf standard.
NOWHERE does the rule for wolf standards state that the standard must be in the unit POST ACTIVATION for its effect to still apply. As has been stated before, if an Eldar farseer fortunes another unit in its army, and then dies, the fortune does not suddenly go away.
Read the second sentence. Without referencing the first sentence, can you show me rules that indicate the definition of "that"? Because ignoring the wolf standard requirement means you're ignoring the first sentence.
I truly cannot describe how sick this whole discussion has made me, of players like you! I sincerely hope you do not behave this way in general to your opponents as I don't understand how you could get someone to play a game with you more than once. /rant
I'm sorry you felt the need to post in this thread. To be honest, I'm not this semantically inclined when playing, because I have more fun in the moment playing the game... but I realize afterward things that I screwed up during the game. I know, for example, exactly how cover saves for MCs work. I've posted about it here, and I discuss with my opponent sometimes when required. The last game I played, however, I completely forgot and when my opponent told me to roll cover saves for my Hive Tyrant, I did (not that it mattered - I failed them all). I discuss rules here partially for enjoyment, partially because if I discuss/read about them enough, eventually I won't forget them.
You know that whole Rule #1 of the dakka forums and the Tenets of YMDC? Yeah, since I've tried to be polite and discuss an argument instead of an individual, I'd appreciate if you extended the same politeness to me.
DeathReaper wrote:The second sentence clearly references the first sentence.
without the first you have no reference for 'That unit'
That unit clearly means what the first sentence notes as that unit.
Permissive ruleset does not allow for anything other than a unit that includes a wolf standard to be that unit.
remember the rules tell you what you are allowed to do, not what you are not allowed to do.
That unit that your are referencing from the first line still has the possibility to call upon the power of the Wolf Spirit, and the unit which is now being defined(by your thinking) by the term of THAT UNIT has already used it's one shot WOLF SPIRIT, Yet you are trying to define it by calling It so. With this incorrect definition taken out of the equation it only leaves units that have used a their Wolf totems to call upon the WOLF SPIRIT.
Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf." For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.”- THAT unit may no longer call upon the power because they have already used it. And hence can no longer be the unit to which you were hoping to reference in that first line. Leaving only the Wolf spirit as the possible reference point in terms of THAT UNIT.
English. The Wolf Spirit is not a unit, let alone that unit.
If you were meaning the ability to call one, it is still false, as the unit with the wolf standard is the only unit mentioned--the standard simply allows the wolf spirit to be channeled.
Editing to add: The ability of the standard to call a wolf spirit is also irrelevant, only that the unit have one.
What I meant was the only viable reference point to the words THAT UNIT was a unit who has used a Wolf Totem to call upon the power of the Wolf Spirit.(french canadian here)
That unit cannot be a unit capable of calling upon the Wolf Spirit, because the unit with the standard is no longer capable of summoning the Wolf Spirit by the time the assault phase occurs.
Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf.
So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).
For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
The next Assault Phase has come around, the wolf standard no longer exists as it was used in the previously "once per game" instance. All that remains to reference is the unit that called upon the power of the wolf.
Did I get that right Grey? It has quite a bit of merit as well as presenting an even more interesting scenario in casualty removal prior to the next Assault phase.
The Grey Hunter unit that included the wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf at the at the beginning of his opponents turn. The opponent completes his Movement phase and during the Shooting phase he causes 8 wounds. Now the wolf standard bearer is just a normal Grey Hunter now, correct? He is no longer equipped with a wolf standard as it has been used and now has a standard Grey Hunter load out. He would be batch rolled with the other standard load out Grey Hunters.
The same instance would happen if the power is called before a dangerous terrain test as the wolf standard no longer exists once the power of the wolf has been called and the bearer is now just a normal Grey Hunter with the standard load out.
Now that I am thinking about more, pretty damn nice angle Grey.
Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).
Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?
English.
The Wolf Spirit is not a unit, let alone that unit.
If you were meaning the ability to call one, it is still false, as the unit with the wolf standard is the only unit mentioned--the standard simply allows the wolf spirit to be channeled.
Editing to add:
The ability of the standard to call a wolf spirit is also irrelevant, only that the unit have one.
1 The ability to call upon the Wolf is very important because it seperates the re-rool effect from the totem by means of the Wolf spirit.
2. Totem grants ability to call upon the wolf spirit,----> wolf spirit grants the ability to re-roll.
3. With the first line it never states that the totem has to be kept for any amount of time after for the unit to keep the power of the wolf , once it is called it stays.
4. Definition of "That unit" kicks in and then determines who is subject to the power of the Wolf Spirit.
Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).
Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?
I said it was not part of my argument, but DR kept trying to reference Hunter Killer missiles that are no longer present for weapon destroyed results after they have been fired. In addition, other arguments have been presented in this forum that once a combi-weapon fires it's special weapon, the bearer is no longer equipped with a combi-weapon and creates a new wound allocation group. The IG bomb carrier guy as well after he has used his one time bomb toss thing, is replaced with a normal equipped model and joins like wound allocation groups from then on as well.
As I said, I was just trying to get the point of Grey's argument.
Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).
Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?
What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.
Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).
Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?
What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.
If the standard still exists, then "that" still references "unit that includes a wolf standard" and everything works - as long as the standard bearer is still alive. When that model dies, the unit ceases to be a "unit that includes a wolf standard" and cannot benefit from the second sentence of the ability.
Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).
Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?
What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.
Ahhh, I see Grey!
10 man Grey Hunter unit with wolf standard
is not the same as
10 man Grey Hunter unit that has used wolf standard
When the second sentence references, "that" unit, they cannot possibly reference the same unit that contains a wolf standard because one has been used and one has not been used. So when the second sentence references "that" unit, they are referencing one that has called upon the power of the wolf versus one that has not.
That unit cannot be a unit capable of calling upon the Wolf Spirit, because the unit with the standard is no longer capable of summoning the Wolf Spirit by the time the assault phase occurs.
Editing for silly words.
But it's possible because the Wolf SPirit can be summoned before combat, it can be summoned at any time in the game. Also the bearer dosn't need to be around the whole time for the summoning as it is a Simultaneous action. Once you Summon it , pop, it's up for good , and then once You say it's summoned you no longer need the totem for the Wolf Spirit re-roll effect.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Ramses wrote:
Grey elder wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:So the unit that includes a wolf standard calls upon the power of the wolf. From that point on the wolf standard then ceases to exist as does most one use items (not part of my argument, but expressing it to see if I understand Grey).
Erm - where does it say they cease to exist? They can only be used once, sure - but where is the rule that says one use items cease to exist after being used?
What I meant was the Totem still exist . Therefore even if they were to reference a full functioning unit with the a baerer still alive it would not fit the first line's definition because that unit has already called upon the power of the wolf, hence they may not summon the power of the wolf anymore since you can only call upon once per a game and then fail to meet all the requiments in the first line. So they cannot possible be the unit refernced in the first line for they have used thier totem.
Ahhh, I see Grey!
10 man Grey Hunter unit with wolf standard
is not the same as
10 man Grey Hunter unit that has used wolf standard
When the second sentence references, "that" unit, they cannot possibly reference the same unit that contains a wolf standard because one has been used and one has not been used. So when the second sentence references "that" unit, they are referencing one that has called upon the power of the wolf versus one that has not.
Does the phrase "used a wolf standard" or anything like it appear in the rules for the wolf standard?
Are there actually rules for one use items or is it just understood common sense english? (Asking because I can't remember, not trying to be inflammatory)
Well GW in their infinite wisdom gave us one of their fluff driven devices as rules,
Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
The wolf standard is used by, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf". We have no other way given to use the wolf standard. We are told that they can only, "call upon the spirit of the wolf" once per game. That gives us the limitation of how many times you can, "call upon the spirit of the wolf." The second sentence then goes on to tell us exactly what, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf" does.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
NOWHERE does the rule for wolf standards state that the standard must be in the unit POST ACTIVATION for its effect to still apply. As has been stated before, if an Eldar farseer fortunes another unit in its army, and then dies, the fortune does not suddenly go away.
And yet, if a Sanquinary Priest is killed prior to his unit making attacks on the turn they charge, his former unit does not benefit from Furious Charge.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
NOWHERE does the rule for wolf standards state that the standard must be in the unit POST ACTIVATION for its effect to still apply. As has been stated before, if an Eldar farseer fortunes another unit in its army, and then dies, the fortune does not suddenly go away.
And yet, if a Sanquinary Priest is killed prior to his unit making attacks on the turn they charge, his former unit does not benefit from Furious Charge.
Already addressed.
Sang Priest has an always on, "bubble effect". Wolf Standard is activated.
Brother Ramses wrote: I said it was not part of my argument, but DR kept trying to reference Hunter Killer missiles that are no longer present for weapon destroyed results after they have been fired.
I have not referenced Hunter Killer missiles in this thread at all...
DeathReaper wrote:Well, for vheicles I found this FaQ, not sure why it would work any differently for other units:
Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule
GW have consistently ruled that you must have X available when you make use of the ability X provides in order to benefit from it.
Frag Launchers is an "activated" ability (not one use, but that isnt relevant) that you lose if the vehicle is destroyed in tyhe same turn you have disembarked from it, because of the FAQ
Attempting to claim that another activated ability ISNT lost if, when you want to use it, the ability - granting model isnt around, flies in the face of the FAQ.
The front of the Land Raider Crusader is studded with explosive charges designed to hurl shrapnel at the enemy as the troops inside charge out. Any unit that charges into close combat on the same turn as it disembarks from the Crusader counts as having frag grenades.
Absolutely NOTHING like a wolf standard. It is active at all times whose effect takes place the same turn when a unit charges from a Crusader. You do not activate it like the wolf standard at all.
Brother Ramses wrote:Well GW in their infinite wisdom gave us one of their fluff driven devices as rules,
Once per a game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.
The wolf standard is used by, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf". We have no other way given to use the wolf standard. We are told that they can only, "call upon the spirit of the wolf" once per game. That gives us the limitation of how many times you can, "call upon the spirit of the wolf." The second sentence then goes on to tell us exactly what, "calling upon the spirit of the wolf" does.
So if they lose the standard they can't reroll 1's makes perfect sense to me.
So, when GW consistently rule that what provides X must still be alive when you try to benefit from X, you think they dont mean exactly the same thing here?
We've shown that without including the rquirement to be the unit that contains a wolf standard that activated the wolf standard you have no ability to know what "that unit" is
We shown the GW consistently rule EXACTLY this way
Yet you still claim otherwise.
