This happened on the table next to me yesterday night and there is no clear answer in the rule books that I could find, looking to see other schools of though. Guy used Lash and pulled an enemy into a clump and dropped a template on them. Now the sorcerer using it was in the same unit with the noise marine that carried the template weapon. So the argument was "you drop the template at the same time you use the ability so the guys aren't there yet" vs "I use the lash and resolve the power then do my actual shooting attacks because lash although used in the shooting phase instead of a gun isn't actually an attack, no to hit roll or cover saves ect." I can see the arguement on both sides especially as Tau networked markerlights are similar in that they let the unit they are attached to benefit from them so they have to fire first before the rest of the unit to be useable.

The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

This right here.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

Incorrect. Lash is used at any time during the shooting phase, and you cannot fire a weapon while using it. Absolutely nothing in the rules for Lash requires it to be resolved at the same time as the squads shooting.

It is not a PSA. It has no language defining the speciic time you apply it, so the use the player made of Lash was absolutely correct.

Nos has it.

You can actually lash a seperate unit from what your unit is firing at.


You could lash a unit and assault a different one(useful for that squad of assault terminators that is a little too close to your daemon prince who is going to rip open that squad of Tactical marines.

Agreed with nos and Grey Templar.

From the FAQ:
Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Lash doesn't have a weapon profile and it doesn't specifically state it is a PSA. Ergo, it isn't a PSA and is just a psychic power that is used during the shooting phase and prevents the psyker from shooting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:The shooting and lash are done at the same time.

Even though Lash is not a PSA it takes the place of a Shooting weapon IIRC.

Incorrect. Lash is used at any time during the shooting phase, and you cannot fire a weapon while using it. Absolutely nothing in the rules for Lash requires it to be resolved at the same time as the squads shooting.

It is not a PSA. It has no language defining the speciic time you apply it, so the use the player made of Lash was absolutely correct.

No it isn't a PSA but it is used "instead of using another ranged weapon." (Chaos Space Marine Codex, page 88) The only permissible time a ranged weapon is used is when the unit is firing. Granted, the psyker can target a different unit then the one firing upon, but it happens as the same time the rest of the unit is firing. In the OP, the sorcerer was part of the same unit thus all shooting is happening simultaneously, therefor the noise marines template would not be in range until AFTER the unit has shot.

TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

Before dismissing my argument outright at least provide prove your argument is valid or at least address where you think my logic is flawed. I can make just as sweeping argument about your claim.

I've already proven my argument is valid: instead of firing a weapon I am using the power. This does not, at any point, require that I use it the same time that other members of my squad fire their weapons.

Your claim is unsubstantiated in the rules, as you are creating a rule that any "instead of using a weapon" effect must be carried out with the rest of the unit shooting their weapon - it doesnt exist in the rules.

You could also see the numerous other threads on this

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

How novel that you change yet another rule to suit your argument. The actual rule is,

Lash is used instead of firing another ranged weapon in the shooting phase.

The rule implies that instead of firing another ranged weapon, you will be firing a different ranged weapon. That is what prevents you from using a ranged weapon that turn, not your little half-truth rules quote.

While the new FAQ removes any doubt that Lash might be a PSA, that does not remove the rules entry above that points out that it is still considered a ranged weapon. It just happens to be a ranged weapon that is not a psychic shooting attack.

And Lash is not used whenever you would wish to do so. You are told that you specifically use which is instead of using another ranged weapon. So when a Slaanesh Sorcerer, with a bolt pistol and force weapon chooses to use Lash, he will be doing it instead of firing his bolt pistol. When does he use his bolt pistol? When the rest of the unit uses their ranged weapons.

Brother Ramses wrote:
How novel that you change yet another rule to suit your argument. The actual rule is,

How "novel" that you'd take something out of context and pretend its something that it isnt.

That wasnt a rules quote. Do you know how you tell? The fact I never claimed it was. Thats one clue. Its called "discussing the point", something everyone here has managed to do before you stepped in.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Lash is used instead of firing another ranged weapon in the shooting phase.

The rule implies that instead of firing another ranged weapon, you will be firing a different ranged weapon.

Please, find rules for a Psychic power ranged weapon that isnt a PSA. What, you cant find one? Youre relying on implication only to make up a position out of thin air? Say it isnt so!

Brother Ramses wrote: That is what prevents you from using a ranged weapon that turn, not your little half-truth rules quote.

See above. apparently you cant tell you difference between a quote and a discussion about a rule. And again, with the ad hominems - you just cant help yourself....

Brother Ramses wrote:While the new FAQ removes any doubt that Lash might be a PSA, that does not remove the rules entry above that points out that it is still considered a ranged weapon. It just happens to be a ranged weapon that is not a psychic shooting attack.

No, it implies it is a ranged weapon. It isnt actually one, because it doesnt follow the rules for any ranged weapon in any book, ever. If you want to break with tradition and use real rules, please find one stating it is a ranged psychic weapon that isnt a PSA, and find some rules for it. If youre saying its a weapon, you must find:

Range. AP. Strength (or substitute rules, such as poison), and type / number of shots. For example if we use your made up rules then you have NO idea if it can be used on the move or not - its not Assault like a PSA, because it isnt a PSA.

Of course the *lack* of the above is what makes it not a PSA, but good luck finding some real rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:And Lash is not used whenever you would wish to do so.

I didnt say that. I just said it was used during the shooting phase

Brother Ramses wrote: You are told that you specifically use which is instead of using another ranged weapon. So when a Slaanesh Sorcerer, with a bolt pistol and force weapon chooses to use Lash, he will be doing it instead of firing his bolt pistol. When does he use his bolt pistol? When the rest of the unit uses their ranged weapons.

Except he isnt firing a ranged weapon, so isnt constrained by the requirement to fire with the rest of the unit, which is a shooting restriction.

So, after your inability to tell the difference between a real quote and discussion about a rule, your made up rules, made up ranged weapon rule that doesnt exist anywhere, you have come up with a restriction that doesnt exist in actual rules. Or, in other words, you dont have an actual argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - using it instead of using a ranged weapn prevents you using a ranged weapon that turn. You have made an error of assumption there - no rule exists that you are claiming exists, making the rest of your argument null

All "shooting" is happening at the same time, Lash is used whenever you would wish to do so.

Note the emboldened text above Nos. Being disingenuous about what you present makes your argument invalid. Choosing to conveniently leave out the RAW in your argument to only support your flawed argument is the problem with what you post.

And second emboldened part is you saying that Lash can be used whenever you would wish to do so, despite it being used instead of ANOTHER ranged weapon.

And I just pointed out a ranged attack that is not a PSA, aka Lash. The FAQ does not define it as a PSA, but the rule for Lash defines it as being a ranged weapon in the implication that it is used instead of ANOTHER ranged weapon. Your own argument even defines it as using a ranged weapon because it prevents you from using another ranged weapon. Thanks.

One of us is using the rulebook here and one of us is trying to rewrite the rulebook. You can guess which one you fall under.

Conveniently leave out the RAW?

The rules for lash have been posted, and are widely available. When having an intelligent conversation about a rule it is quite useful to occasionally not robotically parrot the same words over and over and over again.

Your problem is you cant tell you difference between someone quoting a rule, when precision IS important, and when someone is conversing about a rule, when it is less so.

You even say it yourself - it implies it is a type of ranged weapon - but it isnt actually one. Same as the rules for vehicle movement imply they override the normal infantry movement rules, but they dont actually do so.

I'm not trying to rewrite the rulebook, but have an intelligent debate. Well done for stopping that from occuring.

I believe nosferatu1001 is correct, though he doesn't need to be indirectly insulting or aggressive about it. There isn't any need to call people unintelligent, because that is what you were doing, sneakily. It is just a game.

Deadshot wrote:I believe nosferatu1001 is correct, though he doesn't need to be indirectly insulting or aggressive about it. There isn't any need to call people unintelligent, because that is what you were doing, sneakily. It is just a game.

The problem is BR is notorious for turning every rule argument into a flame war and some of us are more than tired of it. Seriously. Look at any of his comments in any YMDC thread.

But back to the point at hand, yes Nos is right on this one. Lash is just one of those holdover awkard rules from 4th edition that will be fixed sooner than later.

I hope they fix it rather than "fix it".* For CSM sake.

*See 5th ed Codex Tyranids to see what I mean.

Deadshot wrote:*See 5th ed Codex Tyranids to see what I mean.

:(

Don't get me wrong, 5th ed is a good era for my own nids, but that is a sentence everyone here undersatnds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I've already proven my argument is valid: instead of firing a weapon I am using the power. This does not, at any point, require that I use it the same time that other members of my squad fire their weapons.

How does "...instead of using another range weapon" translate into using the power anytime in the Shooting phase? The rule is instead of shooting the psyker can use Lash. It DOESN'T say the power can be used at ANYTIME in the Shooting phase and that once used the psyker is not permitted to shoot.

It also does not say that it is used at the same time as the squad firing.

Even if it did, you can choose any order in which to resolve your shots. Simply resolve lash first and then the rest.

Please be mindful that common courtesy is not only suggested but actually required by DakkaDakka rules. If you are not sure whether something you want to post is impolite or not, please PM me and refrain from posting until after you receive a reply from me. Otherwise, as always, your account may be suspended for breaking Rule Number One. Thanks!

omg guys read the inat faq up at the top of the bar. NOSferatu you are wrong. period. it actually states the exact situation your in and gives the same example. do you research guys before you get all acro-flaggellent on each other. all the shooting phase actions from the same unit are resolved at the same time. then scroll to the CSM section and it describes lash in more detail.

pinksockpuppet wrote:omg guys read the inat faq up at the top of the bar. NOSferatu you are wrong. period. it actually states the exact situation your in and gives the same example. do you research guys before you get all acro-flaggellent on each other. all the shooting phase actions from the same unit are resolved at the same time. then scroll to the CSM section and it describes lash in more detail.

The INAT FAQ isn't "legal" to reference in YMDC.

edited to clarify:
From the YMDC Tenets:

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs.

pinksockpuppet wrote:omg guys read the inat faq up at the top of the bar. NOSferatu you are wrong. period. it actually states the exact situation your in and gives the same example. do you research guys before you get all acro-flaggellent on each other. all the shooting phase actions from the same unit are resolved at the same time. then scroll to the CSM section and it describes lash in more detail.

See the Tenets of the forum, specifically number 2. INAT is NOT an official FAQ

and even if the INAT was considered official, it would be suspect because the current INAT ruling was made before the current GW BRB FAQ and as such would likely be invalid considering GWs current definition of PSAs.

I think the next INAT update will do a 180 on their explaination of Lash.

Deadshot wrote:It also does not say that it is used at the same time as the squad firing.

It says it replaces the use of another ranged weapon. A ranged weapon is only used when the UNIT fires, so, yes, it does state the power is used at the same time the rest of the squad fires.

Even if it did, you can choose any order in which to resolve your shots. Simply resolve lash first and then the rest.

Actually, no. Look at the steps on page 15 of the BRB. Range is checked prior to shots fired. Thus, you check the range for Lash AND range for the weapons at the same time.

Yes. But I choose to resolve effects/damage in any order.

I fire 5 bolters and Lascannon at targte. Lascannon and 3 bolters hit. I could resolve-

Lascannon, Bolter, bolter, bolter
Bolter, LC, Bolter, Bolter.
Bolter, Bolter, LC, Bolter
Bolter, Bolter, Bolter, LC.

Simply replace LC with Lash and follow version 1.

Deadshot wrote:Yes. But I choose to resolve effects/damage in any order.

I fire 5 bolters and Lascannon at targte. Lascannon and 3 bolters hit. I could resolve-

Lascannon, Bolter, bolter, bolter
Bolter, LC, Bolter, Bolter.
Bolter, Bolter, LC, Bolter
Bolter, Bolter, Bolter, LC.

Simply replace LC with Lash and follow version 1.

It's not a matter of the order of resolving the damages (which happens simultaneously, btw, so the order of resolution is immaterial). You check for range of the weapon PRIOR to shooting (page 15 of the BRB for the sequence of steps for a unit to shoot, page 17 details what checking for range entails and the end result of a weapon is out of range). If the weapon is not in range it doesn't fire, thus, you can't Lash THEN check the other weapons for range THEN resolve damage.

However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

so let me see if i have this right..... games workshop has no clear definition for you guys as in too say "look at me im an example of lash" but inat does which is used by most major gts in north america and you still choose to ignore the exact inat wording? wich is almost always tournament binding (except for 'ard boyz), and instead choose to bicker over an obvious attempt to bend the rules. As a lash player i believe you cannot do that. its treated as a shooting attack with no to hit or wound and your unit must fire at the same target. My doom sirens tell me they want it so bad but my heart tells me it isnt meant to be anyways. sorry guys. its already the sickest power in the game, what do you want?

I can think of another example that can better explain why lash does not prevent shooting:

If you cast doom on a unit with a farseer, the squad he is in can still fire at a different target.

This is the exact same thing. Mind war would have worked the exact same way if not for the Eldar FAQ specifically declaring Mind war a psychic shooting attack.

pinksockpuppet wrote:so let me see if i have this right..... games workshop has no clear definition for you guys as in too say "look at me im an example of lash" but inat does which is used by most major gts in north america and you still choose to ignore the exact inat wording? wich is almost always tournament binding (except for 'ard boyz), and instead choose to bicker over an obvious attempt to bend the rules. As a lash player i believe you cannot do that. its treated as a shooting attack with no to hit or wound and your unit must fire at the same target. My doom sirens tell me they want it so bad but my heart tells me it isnt meant to be anyways. sorry guys. its already the sickest power in the game, what do you want?

Firstly the INAT FAQ has no place in YMDC, this was noted on Pg:1

Secondly GW FAQ'd what a PSA is and surely Lash is not one.

Last but not least, I still believe it works out as I said. Just how it reads to me.

Fearspect wrote:I can think of another example that can better explain why lash does not prevent shooting:

If you cast doom on a unit with a farseer, the squad he is in can still fire at a different target.

This is the exact same thing. Mind war would have worked the exact same way if not for the Eldar FAQ specifically declaring Mind war a psychic shooting attack.

What is the exact entry for Doom? I just checked my closet and cannot find my Eldar codex and now think I might have left it at the last store I was in a tournament.

"The Farseer searches for the threads of destiny that spells the destruction of an enemy and draws it into being. The Farseer can target any non-vehicle unit within 24". All hits caused upon that unit gain a re-roll to wound until the start of the next Eldar turn."

-Codex: Eldar, p. 28

Doesnt Doom happen at the beginning of the turn though?

I was going to use Doom as an example, but the OP's question relies on the target squad being in a different position after Lash than it was before it; Doom requires no such movement, and therefore the thread's question doesn't come into it, as the squad will still be in the same place.

Grakmar wrote:Agreed with nos and Grey Templar.

From the FAQ:
Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Lash doesn't have a weapon profile and it doesn't specifically state it is a PSA. Ergo, it isn't a PSA and is just a psychic power that is used during the shooting phase and prevents the psyker from shooting.

I have to agree with old mate here (and through him nos n co.). He's provided a perfectly good, clear explanation, with a GW FAQ (which is legit in this forum, unlike INAT).

Lash doesn't have a weapon profile. It doesn't matter that you can't fire your bolt pistol when you use it. That doesn't come into it at all. Since it is not a Psychic Shooting Attack, it does not have to be at the same time as the unit, because it is not a shooting attack, no matter if you have to sacrifice your bolt pistol shooting attack, or your left leg.

P.S. God bless Dakka for providing endless procrastination from uni assignments

Avatar 720 wrote:I was going to use Doom as an example, but the OP's question relies on the target squad being in a different position after Lash than it was before it; Doom requires no such movement, and therefore the thread's question doesn't come into it, as the squad will still be in the same place.

I understand, but I hope that my example, coupled with the known fact that Lash is not a PSA shows that a non-PSA can target a different enemy than the rest of the unit. Using it just prevents you from being able to shoot, just like Turboboosting restricts a jetseer from casting powers, or flat out on a transport prevents a disembark. They aren't necessarily related, it's just a restriction placed by your action.

Targeting a different squad isn't the trouble here, it's the fact that LoS is used "instead of firing another ranged weapon", and people are trying to use something that is implied ("instead of another ranged weapon"), as a solid rule to say that lash is a ranged weapon, and must be resolved at the same time as the squad's shooting, as opposed to before or after it.

Well, several others already covered that quite completely, and there were still arguments, so I figured I'd try a different angle.

"instead of another ranged weapon"
to me implies done in place of shooting other said ranged weapon

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:"instead of another ranged weapon"
to me implies done in place of shooting other said ranged weapon

I've highlighted the important bit.

It is implied, but it is never specifically stated. There is also the issue of Daemon Princes with Lash, who have no 'other ranged weapon', does that mean they cannot use LoS?

Can a Gunless Dreadnought run?

Pg 16 of the BRB under 'Run!':
"(we find that this is a popular choice for units that have no ranged weaponry or no target!)"

Yes, they can.

at times like this I like to quote myself,

"In the Grimdarkness of YMDC, there is no interperation, no extrapolation, no implication, there is only RAW" !!!

Love it GT

mind if i put it in my sig?

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

motyak wrote:Love it GT

mind if i put it in my sig?

Go ahead

Sorry for a minor threadjack: If Lash is not a PSA, does that mean that Ahriman can cast it multiple times?

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

Replacing an action doesn't mean that it becomes what it is replacing. It doesn't matter that ranged weapons are used when the unit is firing, since the Lash is not a ranged weapon and so it doesn't follow the rules for one. Again, I direct you to the Lash Prince, a model devoid of any ranged weaponry for the Lash to replace; using your logic it can't use the lash.

The ability to use it at any point in the shooting phase comes from it NOT being a ranged weapon, and NOT having any restrictions on when it can be used apart from "in the shooting phase". Things like Warptime state specifically that they must be used at the start of the turn, not simply during the movement phase; lash is devoid of any such specifics - Does Lash say it must be used when the squad the model is accompanying fires? No. Does it say it must be used at the start or end of the shooting phase? No. It just says "in the shooting phase". There is nothing implied about that statement, it is stated in black and white.

I fail to see what your point is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baragash wrote:Sorry for a minor threadjack: If Lash is not a PSA, does that mean that Ahriman can cast it multiple times?

No, because he doesn't have access to the Lash of Submission power.

There is no order of priority because Lash is a psychic power, not a PSA. It happens in the shooting phase but can be before or after actually shooting. So you can lash an opponent within range of the guns, or after shooting the crap out of the opponent lash him further away.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, you can assault instead of shooting... that doesn't mean it happens at the same time.

Just because you may use Lash instead of firing doesn't mean that they happen at the same time.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

I'm no expert here, but perhaps time for some common sense, maybe?

I've read this thread with some interest, as I'm an avid hater of the old LoS. Causes me no end of issues, but still...
Personally, having read all the evidence put forward, I would have to say that you can use LoS at any time.

I see it this way:
The rule is written in a way that says you can only hold one thing in your given hand at any one time, which I am inclined to believe (I cant hold a dremel and a drill at the same time if I dont want to lose a finger somewhere). The guy holding the Lash can only use one weapon in the shooting phase. I am also aware that this is applying real world logic to a game rule, but this appies across the game in terms of models having to choose one or the other weapon.

Yes, the model is in a unit, and yes it trades the 'ranged weapon' for LoS, but no it is not a PSA.

The way I see it, they can use it anytime before or after the shooting unit does theirs.

As much as I'd like to castrate LoS, it is not a shooting weapon or shooting psychic weapon.
It does not have a profile like the FAQ states, and the rule is only stating that he swaps his 'ranged weapon' for LoS.

It is not simultaneous.

Since Lash is not a PSA is can be used against any squad, including one that the rest of the squad is not shooting at. It simply means that if the sorcerer uses this ability then he will not be able to shoot with the rest of the squad.

Avatar 720 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

Replacing an action doesn't mean that it becomes what it is replacing.

Please elaborate since that's the basis of your argument and it makes no sense. The Lash rule is clear, instead of using a ranged weapon the psycker can use the power. So, where and when the range weapon is used the psyker and substitute the use of Lash.

It doesn't matter that ranged weapons are used when the unit is firing, since the Lash is not a ranged weapon and so it doesn't follow the rules for one.

Lash not being is PSA is moot. The fact the act of using Lash is a substitute for the act of shooting limits the use of the power to when shooting can be done. If the psyker cannot shoot he cannot use Lash.

Again, I direct you to the Lash Prince, a model devoid of any ranged weaponry for the Lash to replace; using your logic it can't use the lash.

How a model is depicted has no baring on the rules.

The ability to use it at any point in the shooting phase comes from it NOT being a ranged weapon, and NOT having any restrictions on when it can be used apart from "in the shooting phase".

Ah, there is a restriction, the use of Lash is used instead of shooting. As noted above, the act of shooting is replace with the act of using Lash. Substituting the shooting ac doesn't automatically grant cart blanche use of Lash.

Things like Warptime state specifically that they must be used at the start of the turn, not simply during the movement phase; lash is devoid of any such specifics - Does Lash say it must be used when the squad the model is accompanying fires?

YES! Again, the act of using Lash substitutes the act of shooting thus limiting the use to when the model shoots.

Does it say it must be used at the start or end of the shooting phase? No. It just says "in the shooting phase".

Finish the sentence: The power is used in the Shooting phase replacing shooting with Lash.

There is nothing implied about that statement, it is stated in black and white.

Agreed. The psyker is free to use Lash when the unit he is in shoots.

Page 15 is clear:

* All the firing of a unit must completed before selecting another unit to shoot.
* There are six steps implemented by each unit firing. All steps must be completed prior to selecting a different unit.

If a psyker uses Lash, per the Lash rule, he is in the act of shooting. If he is shooting he is limited to shooting when the rest of the unit shoots.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:[
Agreed. The psyker is free to use Lash when the unit he is in shoots.

Page 15 is clear:

* All the firing of a unit must completed before selecting another unit to shoot.
* There are six steps implemented by each unit firing. All steps must be completed prior to selecting a different unit.

If a psyker uses Lash, per the Lash rule, he is in the act of shooting. If he is shooting he is limited to shooting when the rest of the unit shoots.

I would like to point out lash is not a shooting attack and therefore you are being inconsistent with saying it should follow rules for shooting (anyone else enjoying people saying this?). lash should be treated as a 'normal' psychic power that just happens to be used in the shooting phase.


However since GW doesn't keep up to date FAQ's (GW if you are reading this please hire me to do it) simple fix of errata saying 'psycher may not shoot a ranged weapon in the same turn as he uses los' (NB this is what it basically what it says now since it is not a psa and there is no precedence saying psychic powers which are not psa used in the shooting phase must be used when the model's unit fires, people please feel free to list these, I don't have my massive collection of codexes on me).

Ah chaos how i love you and your psychers especially the ones who can use the same power twice (non psa) and can't at the same time


also anyone know how the hell you spell psycher?

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:However the Lash is NOT a weapon, it is a Psychic Power; the fact it can be used in place of "another ranged weapon" is unimportant, as it neither states it is a psychic shooting attack or even a weapon, it only implies it, and implications are not rulings in and of themselves; unless the lash states clearly that it is a ranged weapon, then it isn't one.

I never said it was a weapon. I said the act of using the power replaces the act of using a ranged weapon. The only time a ranged weapon can be used is when the unit is firing. Again, the rule states the psyker may use the power [i]instead[i] of a ranged weapon. It doesn't state the power can be used at any time in the Shooting phase. If anything is implied it is that notion, the ability to use the power anytime during the Shooting phase.

What rule permits the power to be used anytime in the Shooting phase?

Replacing an action doesn't mean that it becomes what it is replacing.

Please elaborate since that's the basis of your argument and it makes no sense. The Lash rule is clear, instead of using a ranged weapon the psycker can use the power. So, where and when the range weapon is used the psyker and substitute the use of Lash.

It makes perfect sense. If you replace wheels with anti-grav engines, are they still wheels because that's what they replaced? Yes, the rule is clear, he can use the lash instead of using a ranged weapon, but that does not make the lash a ranged weapon, this is what you are failing to comprehend and failing to disprove. Your final sentence makes no sense, please rewrite it.

It doesn't matter that ranged weapons are used when the unit is firing, since the Lash is not a ranged weapon and so it doesn't follow the rules for one.

Lash not being is PSA is moot. The fact the act of using Lash is a substitute for the act of shooting limits the use of the power to when shooting can be done. If the psyker cannot shoot he cannot use Lash.

Please provide solid ruling for this view; "instead of firing another ranged weapon" does not give any sort of specific limit, all it does is imply. If it was limited to when shooting would be carried out, then it would become a shooting weapon, and therefore a PSA, which it is not, thus the point is far from moot.

Again, I direct you to the Lash Prince, a model devoid of any ranged weaponry for the Lash to replace; using your logic it can't use the lash.

How a model is depicted has no baring on the rules.

I disagree, please answer the question. Using your logic, if a Prince has the Lash of Submission power, and it requires the act of shooting to be given up before it can be used, then the Prince cannot cast it, correct?

The ability to use it at any point in the shooting phase comes from it NOT being a ranged weapon, and NOT having any restrictions on when it can be used apart from "in the shooting phase".

Ah, there is a restriction, the use of Lash is used instead of shooting. As noted above, the act of shooting is replace with the act of using Lash. Substituting the shooting ac doesn't automatically grant cart blanche use of Lash.

That is not a restriction of the use of lash, unless you would like to go back to the Daemon Prince example that you seem intent upon ignoring. The only specific restriction of the lash is its use in the shooting phase.

Things like Warptime state specifically that they must be used at the start of the turn, not simply during the movement phase; lash is devoid of any such specifics - Does Lash say it must be used when the squad the model is accompanying fires?

YES! Again, the act of using Lash substitutes the act of shooting thus limiting the use to when the model shoots.

Where? Please point out where it says "Lash of Submission must be used at the same time any accompanying unit shoots." Again, Lash does not inherit the type of ability it is replacing; otherwise it would say Lash of Submission is a ranged weapon, which it does not.

Does it say it must be used at the start or end of the shooting phase? No. It just says "in the shooting phase".

Finish the sentence: The power is used in the Shooting phase replacing shooting with Lash.

Don't try and avoid the question, "in the shooting phase" is all that is required, "instead of firing another ranged weapon" does not change the fact that it is used in the shooting phase, and does not give a specific point in it.

There is nothing implied about that statement, it is stated in black and white.

Agreed. The psyker is free to use Lash when the unit he is in shoots.

Page 15 is clear:

* All the firing of a unit must completed before selecting another unit to shoot.
* There are six steps implemented by each unit firing. All steps must be completed prior to selecting a different unit.

If a psyker uses Lash, per the Lash rule, he is in the act of shooting. If he is shooting he is limited to shooting when the rest of the unit shoots.

Page 15 only applies to shooting, which would make Lash a PSA, which it is not; once again, this 'moot' point pops up. If, by using lash, he is in the act of shooting, then that makes lash a shooting attack, which it is not, and therefore is not limited to having to use it with the rest of the squad, since he is not firing a weapon.

Is there any chance of replying without picking the paragraph apart sentence by sentence? It stretches the page and makes replying a hassle.

What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

It isn't GW if the rules aren't murky, you can argue both that a tzeentch sorcerer (inc. arhriman) can both use warptime 'more than once' and 'only once' correctly at the same time.

TGA - replacing firing a weapon does not mean you must then use that power at the same time as you would have shot. That is an entirely made up restriction that does not exist.

The rules say it can be used instead of another ranged weapon ranged weapon right, OK, think of this, I could stab you with this fork later to kill you, but instead I will stab you with this knife now.

Out of context I know, but still a valid argument.

Also, It states the it can be used instead of a ranged weapon, it does not say it has to be used while the squad is firing their guns.

curtis wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

It isn't GW if the rules aren't murky, you can argue both that a tzeentch sorcerer (inc. arhriman) can both use warptime 'more than once' and 'only once' correctly at the same time.

Actually, 'only once' for Ahriman would be incorrect thanks to the CSM FAQ:

Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three
times during the same turn?
A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be
used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple
times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is
true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in
using this power more than once per turn!

Avatar 720 wrote:

curtis wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:What I am gleaning from all of this is that the new GW FAQ has invalidated the previous INAT ruling. Where we were once prohibited from lashing and then shooting the now clustered target unit, if the lasher and the shooting models were all in the same unit.

Now we are free to do that. And, the rules are still as murky as they ever were, only now its slanted the other way.

It isn't GW if the rules aren't murky, you can argue both that a tzeentch sorcerer (inc. arhriman) can both use warptime 'more than once' and 'only once' correctly at the same time.

Actually, 'only once' for Ahriman would be incorrect thanks to the CSM FAQ:

Q. Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three
times during the same turn?
A. Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be
used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple
times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is
true for Warptime, but of course there is no point in
using this power more than once per turn!

Q: Can a pysker attempt to cast the same psychic
power more than once in a turn? (p50)
A: No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows
it.

And then the convoluted mess begins all depending on how you read them together, since the 40k rule book FAQ is clarifying something instead of giving out a new rule (should be errata/ amendment if indeed it is a new rule) it all boils down to out of date FAQs. one 'no' arguement is basically now that the rule book faq has changed how double tapping works the big cheese himself has no rule allowing him to double tap at all except a FAQ which reiterated you can't double tap PSAs in accordance with the rule book which now includes you can't double tap ever. (note I have no idea when no double tapping ever was wrote I don't have every version out there but if it was before the chaos one they really suck at consistency, why can he break one rule and not the other).

Also don't you hate it that GW doesn't think that warptime could not be successfully cast you know 11 or 12 pychic hood, runic weapon ect?

in fact the ahriman question in the FAQ should really apply to all tzeentch sorcerers since it indirectly allows them to double tap non PSA powers. ah tzeentch i wonder if you have a hand in this...

Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Not quite. The sorceror still ahs the weapons, but is using something else. A combi-weapon would be more appropriate, but niot much.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

Leo actually has a point some how *straches head* indeed a ccw which replaces a ranged weapon should not be treated as a ranged weapon just as a 'normal' psychic power cast in the shooting phase should not be treated as a psa, thanks to the new faq update the instead of another weapon is the wrong wording and should be erattaed to 'a psyker who uses lash of submission can not use a ranged weapon in the same turn'

Sorry for another threadjack, but this seems the place. If a Daemon Prince uses LoS on a unit, can he assault a DIFFERENT unit in the assault phase?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

No, but the rulebook says to replace the boltgun with the thunder hammer. So by your logic (since A replaces B, B must follow A's rules) the thunder hammer must be used in the shooting phase since the thing that it replaced must be used in the shooting phase.
Also note that the rules for the thunder hammer don't say when it is to be used only how it is to be used when you use it so your question doesn't have any basis.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

No, but the rulebook says to replace the boltgun with the thunder hammer. So by your logic (since A replaces B, B must follow A's rules) the thunder hammer must be used in the shooting phase since the thing that it replaced must be used in the shooting phase.
Also note that the rules for the thunder hammer don't say when it is to be used only how it is to be used when you use it so your question doesn't have any basis.

But is does not equate with your example because a thunderhammer is not, "another ranged weapon". Lash is used, "instead of another ranged weapon". That indicates that Lash is a ranged weapon. You cannot replace "another ranged weapon" unless you already using a ranged weapon.

Instead of using a machine gun, I am going to use a javelin.

Not the same, but both ranged weapons.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Since people seem to be hung up on the replaces a ranged weapon, does this mean that if I exchange my boltgun with a thunder hammer I get to attack with it in the shooting phase? I mean I'm replacing my normal ranged attack with the thunder hammer therefore it should follow all of the normal rules for making a ranged attack.

Does the thunderhammer rules tell you that instead of using another ranged weapon you use the thunderhammer? Didn't think so.

No, but the rulebook says to replace the boltgun with the thunder hammer. So by your logic (since A replaces B, B must follow A's rules) the thunder hammer must be used in the shooting phase since the thing that it replaced must be used in the shooting phase.
Also note that the rules for the thunder hammer don't say when it is to be used only how it is to be used when you use it so your question doesn't have any basis.

But is does not equate with your example because a thunderhammer is not, "another ranged weapon". Lash is used, "instead of another ranged weapon". That indicates that Lash is a ranged weapon. You cannot replace "another ranged weapon" unless you already using a ranged weapon.

Instead of using a machine gun, I am going to use a javelin.

Not the same, but both ranged weapons.

Then we hit the Daemon Prince issue of him having no ranged weapon to replace, and the fact that if lash does become a ranged weapon, then it is performing a shooting attack when used, but since Lash isn't a PSA...

Or in other words you just have ot make up a whole host of rules.

Or, you avoid the implication (after all, theyve told us it isnt a PSA, so it isnt any form of Psychic Shooting attack) and treat it as is.

Much, much easier all round.

Not being well steeped in Chaos Marine rules, but looking at it from a general game perspective, let me ask a few questions:

Generally, can a unit with a psyker (sorcerer, magic genie, whatever) cast his psychic abilities on one target and have the rest of his unit shoot at a different target (or none at all)? If they can target different units, do they have to use their psyker's ability and their shooting attacks at the same time?

Specifically, does the Lash SAY it is a shooting attack (like a Weirdboy's Frazzle and Zzap)? Can it still be used (as per pg 50, Psychic Shooting Attacks) if the psyker has no line of sight on the target, is locked in combat, or ran during the shooting phase?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does Lash say it replaces a ranged attack?

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Not being well steeped in Chaos Marine rules, but looking at it from a general game perspective, let me ask a few questions:

Generally, can a unit with a psyker (sorcerer, magic genie, whatever) cast his psychic abilities on one target and have the rest of his unit shoot at a different target (or none at all)? If they can target different units, do they have to use their psyker's ability and their shooting attacks at the same time?

Specifically, does the Lash SAY it is a shooting attack (like a Weirdboy's Frazzle and Zzap)? Can it still be used (as per pg 50, Psychic Shooting Attacks) if the psyker has no line of sight on the target, is locked in combat, or ran during the shooting phase?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does Lash say it replaces a ranged attack?

Yes, if the power is not a psychic shooting attack. No, not unless specified or if it is a PSA.

No, the GW FAQ states that Lash is not a PSA. It requires LoS, but since it is not a PSA, there is no restriction on use during combat or running.

Lash is used instead of using another ranged weapon, however there are certain faults in the logic that is being used to argue that "Instead of another ranged weapon = Lash is a ranged weapon and the model must forfeit its usual shooting in order to use it", namely the fact that if it was a ranged weapon, its use would be counted as a shooting attack, which is is stated to not be, and the fact that if it requires a ranged weapon to replace, then a Daemon Prince would not be able to use it.

As Nos said, the only rules that are being provided to back-up the claim that lash is a ranged weapon are quite simply made up.

It seems simple to me, but i'll toss this out there and hope it helps those of you on the fence, or willing to change opinions.

The Sorcerer has the option to use Lash or shoot. Now this isn't because Lash is a PSA, it's simply that it is a ranged ability that requires focus and prevents him from shooting with his squad. Because of this his squad can still shoot at a unit of their choosing while he concentrates on controlling the enemy and moving them into a position of his choosing. This being said it explains why the sorcerer can still lash other units while tied up in CC. The rest of his squad is too busy fighting to shoot, but he can still utilize his psychic power to control his enemies.

I understand that some people might have a problem with this due to the first sentence of Lash "may use this power during the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon". This would imply it as a PSA and would be the only way you could justify that it has to be used in unison with his squad shooting. The problem is that Lash does not count as a PSA due to the FAQ. That being covered I don't see how the discussion continues, however if you have justification to refute this point then I would appreciate to see your logic behind it (preferably clear cut and supported through rules.)

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Interesting. So lash can be used...

If he is in a rhino and the rhino moves more than 6", then he can still use lash.

If the rhino pops smoke, then he can still use lash.

If the rhino is stunned or shaken, then he can still use lash without disembarking.

I guess if you can pop smoke and use lash, than

You can move 12" and lash
or Even lash while locked in CC

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I guess if you can pop smoke and use lash, than

You can move 12" and lash
or Even lash while locked in CC

I would suppose as long as you didn't target the unit you were locked in cc with...

Well I don't believe there is anything against targetting them, just that moving them as normal wouldn't exactly happen (lol)

Not to mention that lash can be used if you run. That might have been mentioned already...

I do enjoy the sarcasm

Sadly the RAW provides nothing to counter any of the points jamesdean or weasel provided. Regular psychic powers are not constrained by many of the rules that limit shooting abilities.

Now that being said, I would like to give my own personal opinion (based on fluff and what I perceive as common sense) on the statements. These are obviously personal views and in no way are validated for the purposes of the game.

"If he is in a rhino and the rhino moves more than 6", then he can still use lash."

From how I have always looked at it, the reason passengers cannot fire from a vehicle moving more then 6" is because at higher speeds it would become difficult and dangerous to expose yourself (even impossible due to the tactical driving), therefore the Sorcerer wouldld NOT be able to use Lash since he's unable to look out from the top hatch and draw a LoS to a target.

"If the rhino pops smoke, then he can still use lash."

Once again, to obscure a vehicle with smoke you would then eliminate the Sorcerer's ability to see anything and would prevent him from drawing LoS.

"If the rhino is stunned or shaken, then he can still use lash without disembarking."

The passengers are shaken around (head aches ahoy!) and unable to steady themselves to get up top and do anything.

Not to mention that lash can be used if you run. That might have been mentioned already...

This one is actually tough for me. Originally I wanted to say "Yeah of course you can lash and run or run and lash", but then I thought about this. First off it's not all that fair to be able to move an additional 1" to 6" in order to get LoS to a target, but since Lash never specifies when it has to be used during the shooting phase I could see how this argument could be valid. At the same time I also think that if the Sorcerer is using this ability instead of shooting a weapon or firing a PSA then the ability must require a great deal of focus in order to use. That being said if the Sorcerer is busy running for his life with his buddies then he probably isn't reaching his tendrils into the souls of his enemies and walking them about as he wishes.

That all said, since Lash isn't a PSA all of my opinions are just...opinions. I would never expect to be able to out debate someone by using fluff and logic against RAW. I was genuinely sincere in my last post about wanting someone to find a rule to limit the use of Lash (INAT obviously is out of the question). Sadly I cannot and therefore am supporting its diversity. Good luck and good gaming!

Let's set some things straight:

* Lash is NOT a PSA. I never suggested it and it's not germane to the discussion. Just because it's not a PSA doesn't mean the use isn't restricted.
* Analogizes regarding replacing the psyker's weapon aren't not relevant. The use of Lash doesn't replace the weapon, the USE of Lash replaces the USE of the weapon. Replacing a range weapon with a CCW weapon doesn't make the CCW a range weapon instead, the act of firing is replaced with the act of assaulting.

In general, the only time a model can shoot is during the Shooting phase when the accompanying unit shoots (page 15, BRB). The rules also state a unit must complete all shooting before another unit can shoot. Thus, a player cannot alternate shooting between several units, one unit shoots then the next then the next and so on.

The Lash rules state the power is used instead of using another ranged weapon meaning the act of shooting is replaced with the act of using the Lash psychic power. This limits the use of Lash to when the model can shoot.

A very clear example of one action replacing another is Running. Running replaces the act of shooting, just as Lash. This substitution doesn't absolve the player from having to resolve the running action before moving on to another unit. In other words, a player cannot simultaneously Run multiple units, each unit must complete the Run action before moving on to the next unit.

Lash works in a similar manner, only at the model level instead of the unit level. When the unit shoots, the psyker can substitute using his ranged weapon with using Lash.

The notion that Lash can be used anytime during the Shooting phase implies a model from one unit can shoot (the act being replaced) prior to the rest of the unit, in fact, prior to other units firing. Futher, this notion suggests multiple models from different units can shoot (the act being replaced) prior to the accompanying units thus having multiple units partially shooting Nothing in the rules suggests any of this as being valid.

So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

rigeld2 wrote:So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

Which is why they need a better FAQ or a new codex

rigeld2 wrote:So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

Run replaces shooting attack and is restricted by shooting rules, but is not a PSA.

As I noted above, Lash not being a PSA is moot. Lash doesn't have a weapon profile nor the limiting rules relegating to a PSA. Lash has it's own set of rules (like Running) that replaces the act of shooting. It's still bound by the general shooting rules related to the act of shooting, however (just like Running).

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So it replaces a shooting attack, and is restricted by shooting rules, but it's not a PSA.

I'm ... I'm not sure I can buy that.

Run replaces shooting attack and is restricted by shooting rules, but is not a PSA.

As I noted above, Lash not being a PSA is moot. Lash doesn't have a weapon profile nor the limiting rules relegating to a PSA. Lash has it's own set of rules (like Running) that replaces the act of shooting. It's still bound by the general shooting rules related to the act of shooting, however (just like Running).

Except Running isn't a psychic power, so comparing the two doesn't really work.

And Lash not being a PSA is *not* moot. Because it isn't a PSA, it's not treated like a shooting attack. Meaning it's not restricted by the same things that restrict shooting.

GreyChaos wrote:It seems simple to me, but i'll toss this out there and hope it helps those of you on the fence, or willing to change opinions.

The Sorcerer has the option to use Lash or shoot. Now this isn't because Lash is a PSA, it's simply that it is a ranged ability that requires focus and prevents him from shooting with his squad. Because of this his squad can still shoot at a unit of their choosing while he concentrates on controlling the enemy and moving them into a position of his choosing. This being said it explains why the sorcerer can still lash other units while tied up in CC. The rest of his squad is too busy fighting to shoot, but he can still utilize his psychic power to control his enemies.

I understand that some people might have a problem with this due to the first sentence of Lash "may use this power during the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon". This would imply it as a PSA and would be the only way you could justify that it has to be used in unison with his squad shooting. The problem is that Lash does not count as a PSA due to the FAQ. That being covered I don't see how the discussion continues, however if you have justification to refute this point then I would appreciate to see your logic behind it (preferably clear cut and supported through rules.)

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Quoted for truth... This is some logic.

Why is it that nobody is disproved the above statement?

"The Lash rules state the power is used instead of using another ranged weapon meaning the act of shooting is replaced with the act of using the Lash psychic power. This limits the use of Lash to when the model can shoot. "

You see that "Meaning" in the middle? That is your unsupported leap based off an implied but never stated part of the Lash power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"The Lash rules state the power is used instead of using another ranged weapon meaning the act of shooting is replaced with the act of using the Lash psychic power. This limits the use of Lash to when the model can shoot. "

You see that "Meaning" in the middle? That is your unsupported leap based off an implied but never stated part of the Lash power.

What does "...instead of using another range weapon" mean to you? Using the power Lash is substituted for using a range weapon. No leap, no implication. It's right there on page 88 of the codex.

One part ("...instead of using another ranged weapon.") is, the other part (your interpretation of its meaning) is not.

What it means to us is unimportant, since we do not create the rules, and there are currently no rules to support your argument; or if there are, then you have not stated them.

Instead of using another ranged weapon - so you cant shoot. Thie "another" simply implies it is a ranged weapon - but there are no rules for it, so it isnt.

This is pretty funny to me, because lash clearly is and should be treated as a psa (as should anything that targets an enemy unit), but has just never been FAQed, so we get into this mess.

Actually its been FAQ'd the other way - it isnt a PSA because GW have said it isnt.

What about powers that target enemy units but are not cast during the shooting phase like Doom? Does that model still get to shoot during the shooting phase?

Doom should have been erratad with the new edition.

Nos: you're giving the games designers waaaaay too much credit.

My point is that it was never stated to be a psa, so we should play it as such. I just happen to think it's an omission due to neglect.

There's a FAQ answer that is right on point regarding what is and what is not a PSA. There is no neglect. Lash is not a PSA.

Avatar 720 wrote:One part ("...instead of using another ranged weapon.") is, the other part (your interpretation of its meaning) is not.

What it means to us is unimportant, since we do not create the rules, and there are currently no rules to support your argument; or if there are, then you have not stated them.

You keep saying the rules don't support my argument but don't show where or how the argument fails. I'm willing to debate ideas but so far all you have done is post simple dismissive rhetoric like above with out and substance to back it. I've stated where I felt the rules supported my argument. If you think I'm wrong show me where the logic is faulty. Provide the rule set backing up you claim. Provide page numbers to rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Instead of using another ranged weapon - so you cant shoot. Thie "another" simply implies it is a ranged weapon - but there are no rules for it, so it isnt.

So if it's done instead of using another ranged weapon when can it be done? Is there anything that ties it to the shooting phase?

It's not a PSA however it is done instead of using another ranged weapon, when can a unit use a ranged weapon? When the unit fires.

The power itself says that it is to be used in the shooting phase. The "instead of", IMHO, is meant to clarify that you can't cast the power and shoot in the same phase.

That would have been (instead of using a ranged weapon)

not instead of using another ranged weapon

Lash of submission isnt a weapon ( Insert exclamation mark here ) (it doesnt cause damage last time I checked)

Lash isn't a PSA due to the FAQ.

So to argue that it is a psychic shooting attack even when an FAQ clearly states it isnt makes the you one of the following: illiterate for being unable to read , incompetent for failing to comprehend it even after it was explained to you multiple times , or TFG who just doesn't like the one power that is good in his opponents codex .

Sorry for being an a$$ or coming off as mean but sometimes some people just need it told to them in a more explicit manner. Hate me if you will, I act to save your opponents from you arguing them into submission. (catch what i did there )



Edited to remove quotes as to not single people out!

By lashes own text "instead of using another ranged weapon"

Lash is a weapon, just not one defined by the BGB

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:One part ("...instead of using another ranged weapon.") is, the other part (your interpretation of its meaning) is not.

What it means to us is unimportant, since we do not create the rules, and there are currently no rules to support your argument; or if there are, then you have not stated them.

You keep saying the rules don't support my argument but don't show where or how the argument fails. I'm willing to debate ideas but so far all you have done is post simple dismissive rhetoric like above with out and substance to back it. I've stated where I felt the rules supported my argument. If you think I'm wrong show me where the logic is faulty. Provide the rule set backing up you claim. Provide page numbers to rules.

Nos already pointed it out, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it is your problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Instead of using another ranged weapon - so you cant shoot. Thie "another" simply implies it is a ranged weapon - but there are no rules for it, so it isnt.

It's not a PSA however it is done instead of using another ranged weapon, when can a unit use a ranged weapon? When the unit fires.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:By lashes own text "instead of using another ranged weapon"

Lash is a weapon, just not one defined by the BGB

You're not being consistent in your argument.

First you say it's done instead of using another ranged weapon, and try to link it to when ranged weapons are used in order to make your point, however you then go on to state that lash is weapon that is not defined by the rules.

In fact it's not defined as a weapon anywhere. It's a psychic ability. So, in this case, you can use a psychic power or another ranged weapon.
Maybe you would have been happier if they used the word "attack" as opposed to "weapon" but then you would be arguing that Lash is a PSA because it used the word "attack". So it's a no win for the writers in regard to your argument. In either event Lash is neither a ranged weapon nor a PSA. It is a psychic power that is allowed to be used in the shooting phase.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:In fact it's not defined as a weapon anywhere. It's a psychic ability. So, in this case, you can use a psychic power or another ranged weapon.
Maybe you would have been happier if they used the word "attack" as opposed to "weapon" but then you would be arguing that Lash is a PSA because it used the word "attack". So it's a no win for the writers in regard to your argument. In either event Lash is neither a ranged weapon nor a PSA. It is a psychic power that is allowed to be used in the shooting phase.

If it's not a ranged weapon there is no way to use it, as the rules clearly state that its used *edited* instead of another ranged weapon

and yes the writing of the rules are quite terrible


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:

You're not being consistent in your argument.

First you say it's done instead of using another ranged weapon, and try to link it to when ranged weapons are used in order to make your point, however you then go on to state that lash is weapon that is not defined by the rules.

The BGB defines what a weapon is, however the BGB is not the final say in the 40k universe as we all know.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:In fact it's not defined as a weapon anywhere. It's a psychic ability. So, in this case, you can use a psychic power or another ranged weapon.
Maybe you would have been happier if they used the word "attack" as opposed to "weapon" but then you would be arguing that Lash is a PSA because it used the word "attack". So it's a no win for the writers in regard to your argument. In either event Lash is neither a ranged weapon nor a PSA. It is a psychic power that is allowed to be used in the shooting phase.

If it's not a ranged weapon there is no way to use it, as the rules clearly state that its used *edited* instead of another ranged weapon

and yes the writing of the rules are quite terrible

It never once says that the lash IS a ranged weapon though, to say it is is assuming something that the rules do not state, and that is the core issue, the fact that the end result is an assumed meaning. Just because the lash is used instead of another ranged weapon does not make it a ranged weapon for a plethora of reason that have already been stated multiple times over the course of this rather repetative thread.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:

You're not being consistent in your argument.

First you say it's done instead of using another ranged weapon, and try to link it to when ranged weapons are used in order to make your point, however you then go on to state that lash is weapon that is not defined by the rules.

The BGB defines what a weapon is, however the BGB is not the final say in the 40k universe as we all know.

I didn't say the rulebook is the final say, I said that you were not being consistent in your argument. You stated that lash was a ranged weapon, and that the BRB does not define lash as a weapon, but nor does the codex, therefore you are not being consistent, since the rules do not define it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Instead of using another ranged weapon - so you cant shoot. Thie "another" simply implies it is a ranged weapon - but there are no rules for it, so it isnt.

As Nos has already said ^^

The way lash tells you to use it spells it out for you.

Now I ask you how do you use a Non PSA psychic power, that is a ranged weapon?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Instead of using another ranged weapon - so you cant shoot. Thie "another" simply implies it is a ranged weapon - but there are no rules for it, so it isnt.

As Nos has already said ^^

The way lash tells you to use it spells it out for you.

Now I ask you how do you use a Non PSA psychic power, that is a ranged weapon?

Care to explain how this quote supports your argument? Or are you simply ignoring the second part of it?

Also, your final question is unimportant, since lash is not a ranged weapon.

Except for the fact it is a ranged weapon.

"Instead of using another ranged weapon"

This right here says Lash is a ranged weapon.

*another*

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Except for the fact it is a ranged weapon.

"Instead of using another ranged weapon"

This right here says Lash is a ranged weapon.

*another*

No, it implies it is a ranged weapon.

Implies =/= Is

Implications are all I need.

Nothing points the other way, all evidence gos towards ranged weapon

Edit **

well probably not, yet this is how I interperate and how we play it in our community. Discussed it with players and TO's alike and we all came to the same consensus.

An implication is NOT a rule, so no, you need more than that.

As for your second senetence, are you simply ignoring the vast majority of evidence given in opposition to your stance?

If it is a ranged weapon, then its use constitutes a shooting attack, therefore making it a psychic shooting attack, which is is not, as it must be specifically stated as such or carry the profile of such a weapon.

/cycle starts over and the thread goes nowhere.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Implications are all I need.

Nothing points the other way, all evidence gos towards ranged weapon

Edit **

well probably not, yet this is how I interperate and how we play it in our community. Discussed it with players and TO's alike and we all came to the same consensus.

Or you could just say we play are own in house rules.

The thing about warhammer and its rules is that you cant assume. Your assuming based on a poorly worded sentence. Be it the only possible way you can come to your conclusion yet you hold to it as if it were an entire book of support. The sentence can mean several things. You chose the one. Are you right? That is for you and you alone to think at this moment in time. The consensus here says its not a ranged shooting attack, BECAUSE WHO IS IT ATTACKING? It is a lash whip. The reason it cant shoot is because it whips out and grabs the foe moving them. sigh* some people are just hopeless...

Tomb King wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Implications are all I need.

Nothing points the other way, all evidence gos towards ranged weapon

Edit **

well probably not, yet this is how I interperate and how we play it in our community. Discussed it with players and TO's alike and we all came to the same consensus.

Or you could just say we play are own in house rules.

The thing about warhammer and its rules is that you cant assume. Your assuming based on a poorly worded sentence. Be it the only possible way you can come to your conclusion yet you hold to it as if it were an entire book of support. The sentence can mean several things. You chose the one. Are you right? That is for you and you alone to think at this moment in time. The consensus here says its not a ranged shooting attack, BECAUSE WHO IS IT ATTACKING? It is a lash whip. The reason it cant shoot is because it whips out and grabs the foe moving them. sigh* some people are just hopeless...

Note that it also causes pinning, so who would it be "attacking" the unit that it pinned(possibly). There is an effect on it aside from the movement. This is also seen on one of the C'tan IIRC, I can't recall how it was done there if it's resolved as shooting etc.

Tomb King wrote:sigh* some people are just hopeless...

Remarks like this are what start flame wars and obscenities going back and forth, was this needed, no I don't think so.

Tomb King wrote:sigh* some people are just hopeless...

Remarks like this are what start flame wars and obscenities going back and forth, was this needed, no I don't think so.

I think we've covered all the salient points here really.

The arguments for both sides have been put forth, fairly clearly, t'would seem it's really up to how one RAI here.

.. in a GW book ! Go figure !