On two of my BA assault marine sergeants, I used the DC thunderhammer bit. Now the problem is in my list, I have all my ASM sergeants with thunderhammers + infernus pistols. The DC thunderhammers are two handed and look very cool, but it doesn't let me equip them with a pistol. I already have a sergeant with a thunderhammer + infernus pistol modelled on but that's only one of them. Would it be alright if I say that the other sergeants have the exact same armament?

Depends on the rigidity of where you're playing. In some tournaments, your models need to be WSYWIG. That is, everything needs to be represented. In a friendly game, I'm sure it won't matter - just let your opponent know.

You could just avoid all the mess though, and glue a plasma pistol to his hip or a holstered pistol to his belt.

You could go grey knight style and model it onto his wrist? make a small boxy greenstuff mount for it and slot it in? Or an MIU mount on the shoulder or something?

In case you expect anyone to whine, glue a pistol holster on the sarge. The fact the TH is modelled as twohanded has nothing to do with what weapons your model can buy, carry or use.

An infernus pistol is quite an important thing to model - so just "mag clamp" it to his armour.

Clamp it do his armor, or see if you can use one of the wrist mounted ones from the Sanguinary Guard box. Might take a bit of modelling, but it's an option.

Glue a holstered pistol on. You can then claim it as WYSIWYG for any type of pistol if you change your list later.

I'm currently leaning on the gluing a holster option, it saves me extra infernus pistol bits...

Eeps wrote:Glue a holstered pistol on. You can then claim it as WYSIWYG for any type of pistol if you change your list later.

An infernus is a unit upgrade, so if you do not show it you have NOT made your model WYSIWYG. You have shown A pistol, not THE pistol you paid for.

Carrying WYSIWYG a tad bit too far there NOS. So he has a holstered pistol on his side. Does it really matter if he paid points for an Infernus pistol or Bolt Pistol? Who is to say which one is inside the holster?

So... glue on the pistol holster. Make a paper clip rod with a nub on it's end. Stick it into the business end of the holster when it is an Infernus Pistol, keep it out when it is a bolt pistol. Save that for tournaments.

Homer

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Carrying WYSIWYG a tad bit too far there NOS. So he has a holstered pistol on his side. Does it really matter if he paid points for an Infernus pistol or Bolt Pistol? Who is to say which one is inside the holster?

No, not at all. It is ENTIRELY the point of WYSIWYG.

You have a paid for, VERY important upgrade, yet by looking at the model ALL I can see is a holster - for the bolt pistol the model comes with as basic equipment

If, when looking at the model, I cannot see an Infernus pistol - then you dont have an Infernus pistol

I find that if you just explain that the sargent is equiped with an Inferno pistol and hammer most opponets are fine with it... unless they are rules sticklers.

However when only some sarge's only have infernus pistols, you may find people being more than a little suspicous when they always kill the one without the expensive upgrade...

nosferatu1001 wrote:yet by looking at the model ALL I can see is a holster - for the bolt pistol the model comes with as basic equipment

If, when looking at the model, I cannot see an Infernus pistol - then you dont have an Infernus pistol

This first part is untrue.

All you see is a holster, that holster could have anything in it(even a holster!); there are plenty of models out there that have holstered weapons where the Holster does not look like anything out of the ordinary, but the weapon in not a standard side-arm(Creeed is an excelent example of this, twice. He has 2 holstered Hot-shot laspistols, but they look just like regular laspistols in the holsters; he also has a Sabre sheathed behind him, which is in the style of most IG PWs, but he has neither PW nor normal CCW)

The second portion is half-true; The point of WYSIWYG is simple, ready, and obvious identification: if you look at the model you should be able to readily identify that the model has the infernus pistol, but you will see that he has a holstered pistol, and said holstered pistol could be anything, therefore you need to ask the opponent what kind of pistol it is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:However when only some sarge's only have infernus pistols, you may find people being more than a little suspicous when they always kill the one without the expensive upgrade...

I do agree with this, if all your Sgts with TH+Holstered pistol have Infernus you are 100% golden(there is a visual representation of a holstered pistol, and you have explained what that pistol is); if not all of the have Infernus pistolsthen you should at least be constantly reminding your opponent of which ones have the Infernus and which don't.

No, they have a holster. There is no infernus pistol on the model, therefore the model does not have an infernus pistol

If youre playing counts-as, then every and any holster is now an infernus pistol.

No they have a holster that has an infernus pistol inside it. I guess there aren't any cheaters in my gaming club so if a model has a holster with an Infernus pistol in it we take him for his word. Still WYSIWYG in my book as there is nothing in the rules I could find that states a model looses a pistol if he holsters it. Now if you can show me a pahge number that states holstered weapons don't count for WYSIWYG I'll change my mind.

Model a shoulder mounted version. Wee bit of sprue cut to shape, take the pistol and glue it on top, peplcing the grip on the pistol. Or Do a wrist mount from San Guard.

Boss - can I see an Infernus? No. I can see a Holster, so what you get is a Holster

Find me a line that says what you SEE is what you GET doesnt mean exactly that, and youd have a point.

It is exactly that. It is just in the holster. I honestly don't see a problem where a pistol of any type that is modeled holstered isn't what the owner claims it is. It would be different if a player claimed his model had a pistol but there wasn't one displayer or one in a holster.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:It is exactly that. It is just in the holster. I honestly don't see a problem where a pistol of any type that is modeled holstered isn't what the owner claims it is. It would be different if a player claimed his model had a pistol but there wasn't one displayer or one in a holster.

You're missing the point of WYSIWYG. The entire reason behind this rule is to allow your opponent to look at a model and know what it is equipped with. Having just a holster that could be either a bolt pistol or an infernus pistol doesn't solve the problem of identifying the equipment.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:It is exactly that. It is just in the holster.

*Looks at picture of infernus pistol in codex*

*Looks at holster*

*Looks back at picture*

Nope, not wysiwyg. What I SEE is a holster, not an Infernus pistol. Whats so hard to understand about this phrase? I need to be able to SEE the ACTUAL weapon. Anything else is "counts as"

Boss GreenNutz wrote: I honestly don't see a problem where a pistol of any type that is modeled holstered isn't what the owner claims it is. It would be different if a player claimed his model had a pistol but there wasn't one displayer or one in a holster.

You dont see why an expensive upgrade needs to be modelled, as per the concept of wysiwyg? An expensive, vehicle killing upgrade on a squad that generally loves to get the assault? You really dont get that?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Boss GreenNutz wrote:It is exactly that. It is just in the holster.

*Looks at picture of infernus pistol in codex*

*Looks at holster*

*Looks back at picture*

Nope, not wysiwyg. What I SEE is a holster, not an Infernus pistol. Whats so hard to understand about this phrase? I need to be able to SEE the ACTUAL weapon. Anything else is "counts as"

Boss GreenNutz wrote: I honestly don't see a problem where a pistol of any type that is modeled holstered isn't what the owner claims it is. It would be different if a player claimed his model had a pistol but there wasn't one displayer or one in a holster.

You dont see why an expensive upgrade needs to be modelled, as per the concept of wysiwyg? An expensive, vehicle killing upgrade on a squad that generally loves to get the assault? You really dont get that?

Raging nerd doesn't understand WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG =/= Everything the model uses must be in its hands. It means it must be on the model in some fashion. The argument you're making about how the Infernus Pistol HAS to be out of its holster to be used makes no sense. What about grenades? Like with the Tau, their grenades are meant to be glued onto their belt. So, if it's not in their hands, they can't use the grenade, even though it's on the model?

I guess I need to magnetize either the PK/Choppas/BCs or the Sluggas on my Nobz. That way when they assault into cover I can put a Stikkbomb in their hands so my opponent sees they can throw them the put the CCW weapon back in their hand so my opponent can see them. Nope that won't work since I'd be physically changing the model in game.

To take your analogy one step further. My KFF BM (the GW one mind you not a conversion) has his stikkboms in a knapsack under the KFF generator. All you can see are the handles of those. By your line of reasoning if I paid points for those, he wouldn't be WYSIWYG since my opponent can't see the entire grenade.

Gah

Seriously, do you have any idea what the phrase:

"What you see is what you get" means? The clue is in the bold, underlined part.

Can I see, anywhere on the model, the Infernus pistol? If the answer to that question is "Yes', then all is good. if the answer starts "No, but..." then you have not complied with WYSIWYG. I dont care that you say it is in the holster - i cannot see an Infernus. It doesnt exist.

Note: I have not, anywhere, said it must be in the models hands. If you;d read the thread, and read the posts with slightly more care than you apparently have done, you would see I even suggested clamping an infernus to the model! This render the rest of your rant, ironic given the "nerd rage" comment, moot.

BG - apparently you enjoy taking things out of context, and intentionlly misconstruing others.

You're the one talking about having to be in the hands. nos is just pointing out that it has to be modeled, and obviously an Infernus Pistol. It could be on a belt (outside a holster), it could be on a wrist mount, it could be over the shoulder (ala Predator) it could be laying on the ground. If you purchase an upgrade, you have to model it. Otherwise it's counts-as.

Attach the pistol to his forehead, like Marneus Calgar's sword.



Also, holster ≠ pistol.

Like a hand ≠ crushing claw/devourer/Power Fist/etc.

I agree with Kilroy, though I suggest he doesn't start calling names. No reason to get Moded over.

rigeld2 wrote:You're the one talking about having to be in the hands. nos is just pointing out that it has to be modeled, and obviously an Infernus Pistol. It could be on a belt (outside a holster), it could be on a wrist mount, it could be over the shoulder (ala Predator) it could be laying on the ground. If you purchase an upgrade, you have to model it. Otherwise it's counts-as.

And it could be on a belt IN it's holster, with the holster still visible. You CAN SEE it because it's right there.

No. I can see a handle. I cannot see that it is an Infernus pistol.

Instead of the holster, just glue the pitol tothe waist and wrap a paperclip around it.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You're the one talking about having to be in the hands. nos is just pointing out that it has to be modeled, and obviously an Infernus Pistol. It could be on a belt (outside a holster), it could be on a wrist mount, it could be over the shoulder (ala Predator) it could be laying on the ground. If you purchase an upgrade, you have to model it. Otherwise it's counts-as.

And it could be on a belt IN it's holster, with the holster still visible. You CAN SEE it because it's right there.

What, I can see a handle? Brilliant. I want to see an Infernus Pistol

Its a very, very simple concept: If an Infernus Pistol is not VISIBLE on the model, you have not required with WYSIWYG. Thats it - no ifs, buts, maybes. You have not complied with WYSIWYG

Let's take a page from Insaniak's book.

WYSIWYG is not a rule, but rather a common concept used to show wargear options on models such as characters, who have a variety of Wargear options, in a quick and simple manner to the opponent without them having to check your army list every time they want to know whether he has a Relic Blade or TH.

Actually it is a rule, that applies to all characters (and the whole of the Eldar codex) - which includes this sarge as he is a UC.

This is normally extended in tournaments to cover all optional equipment

Either way, a holster is not a pistol, and so does not count for wysiwyg.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Gah
BG - apparently you enjoy taking things out of context, and intentionlly misconstruing others.

So apparently if you can see the handle of a stikkbomb hanging out of a knapsack it is ok but if the butt of an infernus pistol is sticking out of a holster it is a no-go. I get it now. Selective choosing on your part is the rule of law.

Again--a powerfist is carried on a hand; it is ok to just have a hand to represent the powerfist?

Very no!

Why is it different for this weapon?

It isn't, that I have read.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Gah
BG - apparently you enjoy taking things out of context, and intentionlly misconstruing others.

So apparently if you can see the handle of a stikkbomb hanging out of a knapsack it is ok but if the butt of an infernus pistol is sticking out of a holster it is a no-go. I get it now. Selective choosing on your part is the rule of law.

Impressive amount of making gak up there. Care to rephrase?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Gah
BG - apparently you enjoy taking things out of context, and intentionlly misconstruing others.

So apparently if you can see the handle of a stikkbomb hanging out of a knapsack it is ok but if the butt of an infernus pistol is sticking out of a holster it is a no-go. I get it now. Selective choosing on your part is the rule of law.

Is there anything else that looks like a stikkbomb handle? (I'm honestly not sure). Is there anything else that looks like an Infernus pistol handle? Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol, ...

If there's confusion, it's not WYSIWYG.

Does it matter? If you play true WYSIWYG then you have to see it all. If not then it applies across the board. I see nothing that states partial is OK. I've said I don't care. Call the holstered weapon what you will it doesn't matter as long as the points were paid.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Does it matter? If you play true WYSIWYG then you have to see it all. If not then it applies across the board. I see nothing that states partial is OK. I've said I don't care. Call the holstered weapon what you will it doesn't matter as long as the points were paid.

You have to see upgrades. If nothing else looks like the handle of a stikkbomb, then modeling just the stick in a backpack is fine. Because there are multiple things that look like the handle of a pistol, modeling a holster isn't sufficient.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Does it matter? If you play true WYSIWYG then you have to see it all. If not then it applies across the board. I see nothing that states partial is OK. I've said I don't care. Call the holstered weapon what you will it doesn't matter as long as the points were paid.

You have to be able to see it is an X, whatever X is. If seeing just the handle identifies a stikkbomb (it does - there arent any other grenades it could be) then that is sufficient. I can see a stikkbomb and I get a stikkbomb

The handle of an infernus pistol looks like a bolt pistol (standard equipment), plasma pistol, etc. So what i see is "generic pistol", meaning what you get is a bolt pistol which is the standard equipment

The whole problem with the stikkbomb example is, what if you haven't paid for the upgrade? Where does this leave you?

... don't model it.

Sorry, was talking about the specific example used, the Big Mek.

UltraPrime wrote:The whole problem with the stikkbomb example is, what if you haven't paid for the upgrade? Where does this leave you?

The same place you end up when you model something that could POSSIBLY be any pistol but pay for an infernus pistol.
Outside of WYSIWYG.

UltraPrime wrote:Sorry, was talking about the specific example used, the Big Mek.

I'm not familiar with the Ork Codex - so the stikkbomb is an upgrade for them?

If you paid the points, model it.
If you haven't paid the points, don't model it.

I'm not sure where the confusion is. Either use magnets so you have options or always buy the same options for a specific model/unit.

When I build my models, I will choose what I perceive to be a useful loadout. However, as I have far, far more points than I can ever field in one go, I chop and change each time I play. This inevitably leaves me with points left over when constructing an army. This is where I add unit upgrades, regardless of what is modelled.

Am I the only person who does this? If it's relevant, I do not play the tournament scene, not my cup of tea.

UltraPrime wrote:Am I the only person who does this? If it's relevant, I do not play the tournament scene, not my cup of tea.

And that's the area that WYSIWYG is normally requested/demanded. In a friendly game it just doesn't matter - proxies/counts-as are fine in friendly games.

WYSIWYG is at least as much for your opponents.
Like the rest of the rules, if you and your opponent have no problems with using some and not others, there are no problems. In a tournament that requires WYSIWYG, you will have issues.

Outside of a tournament, I have a hard time imagining anyone complaining all that much--unless you are the sort that would claim that it was really the other pistol that was supposed to be the infernus. Then this rule is partly written just for you.

(Note: 'you' ≠ anyone in particular)

I do have some regard to WYSIWYG. This thread is about Infernus Pistols. All my BAs that use IPs are holding them, but when using my Orks, sometimes I take Stikkbombz, sometimes I don't.

Bottom line is how much of a douche do you want to be in regards to WYSIWYG? If you have no objections that a holstered pistol is what the points were paid for so be it. If you have to see the actual pistol then feel free to demand it. But make sure you enforce WYSIWYG for everything.

I find it extremely hard to believe that if you took the time to glue a holstered pistol on his hip, which he can't hold because his hands are full, and looks more correct than gluing an infernius to his leg, that the model would not be allowed even in a strict WYSIWYG tournament.

So how would you model upgrade abilities, such as powers (whether they are psychic or not)? After all I want to make sure there is no confusion that my Dire Avenger Exarch has Bladestorm and Defend...

Happyjew wrote:So how would you model upgrade abilities, such as powers (whether they are psychic or not)? After all I want to make sure there is no confusion that my Dire Avenger Exarch has Bladestorm and Defend...

You 'model' those in your army list, as only wargear needs to be shown in WYSIWYG.

Fearspect wrote:

Happyjew wrote:So how would you model upgrade abilities, such as powers (whether they are psychic or not)? After all I want to make sure there is no confusion that my Dire Avenger Exarch has Bladestorm and Defend...

You 'model' those in your army list, as only wargear needs to be shown in WYSIWYG.

But then my opponent wouldn't know what model had what power upgrades by looking at it. He would have to look at my army list. Hmmm...

I see what you are trying to do, Happyjew, but you are failing at it. Those powers are not wargear, and only wargear upgrades require modelling for WYSIWYG.

Just paint the words "Infernus Pistol" on the holster.

All kidding aside, how does WYSIWYG work with conversions, especially if the conversions don't look identical.
For example, if the guns on one of my Medusas is made from copper pipe and the other is made from standard PVC pipe, and the guns do not look the same (the PVC pipe is 3/4" vs the copper piping is 1/2") do they both "count as" or are they WYSIWYG Medusas?

Conversions are always count-as. There's two things to think about though - the Rule of Cool, and if they are obviously Medusas. If you don't have anything else that looks similar to either of them, and they both look the part of a Medusa (big mortar thing) then sure - it's fine.

A pistol in a holster looks like *any other pistol in a holster*. That is by definition not WYSIWYG.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Bottom line is how much of a douche do you want to be in regards to WYSIWYG? If you have no objections that a holstered pistol is what the points were paid for so be it. If you have to see the actual pistol then feel free to demand it. But make sure you enforce WYSIWYG for everything.

No, just for upgrades. As usual.

Fearspect - if you take the time to glue a holster, which could contain a bolt pistol, plasma pistol, infernus pistol.... do you not see how that fails wysiwyg? This isnt being "strict", this is making it clear to your opponent what your model has been upgraded with.

Its exactly equivalent to creating a combi-weapon with melta / flamer / plasma components. Is it ok in friendly games? Sure. Is it ok in a tournament? No way.

Happyjew - powers /= wargear, only upgraded wargear needs to be modelled.

Get a spare bolt pistol, glue it to his side and give it a big GS silencer looking thing. stick some holes in a melta pattern on the GS on the barrel, and maybe a half-cylinder on the outside of the bolt pistol so it is like that bump on a meltagun. Not counting drying time, it'd be an effort of 20 minutes tops.

Oh, also, cut the ammo clip off the bolt pistol.

Would that be close enough for WYSIWYG nos? Or does it need to be more heavily converted from the initial pistol.

Does it look like an Inferno Pistol? If the answer is "Yes", then you have met WYSIWYG requirements.

This isnt a hard concept people...

Sure it looks like one to me. It looks like an inferno pistol in a holster.

You are correct in that it isn't that hard of a concept.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Sure it looks like one to me. It looks like an inferno pistol in a holster.

You are correct in that it isn't that hard of a concept.

Does it look like it could be anything else? What if it's supposed to be a plasma pistol in a holster? Or a bolt pistol in a holster?
If it could be any of them, but is not guaranteed to be one of them, it's not WYSIWYG.

That is the problem. If it "could be" anything else then even conversions are not allowed as 2 different people making similar looking conversions could call them totally different weapons.

All I'm saying is that I'm not so anal that I demand to see the whole piece of wargear. Heck I don't have an army that is even capable of fielding one of those weapons yet I wouldn't think twice about calling someone out if he says his guy has his holstered as long as it is in his list and I see the points were paid for it.

2 people making conversions that are similar but are counted as something different won't ever be a problem - because they won't be playing against the same person at the same table.
I already addressed conversions anyway - rule of cool applies, and as long as you don't have 2 in your army that look similar but count as something different it should be fine.

I don't care in friendly games, but in a tournament that enforces WYSIWYG I'm going to call it out.

Guess we differ there. If a player has one model with a holster and says that guy has a pistol in it I'm not going to cry about it. It would be easily identifiable to me. Now if he has 20 guys with holsters that would be a different story.

My assumption was that, since I have (out of about 20-30 space marine models) 4-5 models with holsters (and I'm not going out of my way to collect either marines or holsters), that there are holsters on the generic units.

Yes, if there's only one holster in the army, or all holsters have an infernus pistol, I don't care if it's 100% modeled or not. Since that is not usually the case, I would care.

Its not a matter of being a cry baby or not. Nobody cares about proxies, proxies are the opposite of WYSIWYG and they exist so you can figure out if you want a unit or not.

What is being asserted is that you might be in for a nasty surprise if you show up to a tournament with holsters.

Tournament WYSIWYG rules =/= what's acceptable in a pickup game

By NOS's definition, the holstered pistol bit doesn't look like ANY pistol, bolt, Infernus or otherwise. Also by NOS's definition, every type of grenade needs to be modeled onto a Tactical Marine, as well as actual bolt pistol bitz (since the holstered pistol looks like nothing, and isn't even representative of a bolt pistol-sans-clip in size). Also by NOS's definition of WYSIWYG, Eldar Dire Avenger models that have been assembled with the hand drying cloth, crotch-covering bits that have Eldar "grenades" are modeled incorrectly...they clearly represent something the model is not allowed to have and must be removed lest an opponent make a decision based on the false assumption that Dire Avengers have and/or may have assault grenades.

There most certainly IS a problem with taking WYSIWYG too far, and this holster/no holster blather just proves it. Hard line WYSIWYG observers need a dose of their own medicine from the other perspective, so if they have something on their model(s) that will cause a player to question the legality of a model having the availability for said and such upgrade in the first place said bit(z) need to be removed in order to comply with WYSIWYG...

Or, when the guy says "The holster on his hip represents an Infernus pistol.", you could say "Cool. Good luck, friend. Let's have a good game."

commissarkurn wrote:By NOS's definition, the holstered pistol bit doesn't look like ANY pistol, bolt, Infernus or otherwise.

Sure. But if it's a bolt pistol (on a model that has a bolt pistol standard) it doesn't matter.

Also by NOS's definition, every type of grenade needs to be modeled onto a Tactical Marine, as well as actual bolt pistol bitz (since the holstered pistol looks like nothing, and isn't even representative of a bolt pistol-sans-clip in size).

False. Only upgrades must be modeled. Grenades on tac marines are standard equipment, as are bolt pistols (iirc).

Also by NOS's definition of WYSIWYG, Eldar Dire Avenger models that have been assembled with the hand drying cloth, crotch-covering bits that have Eldar "grenades" are modeled incorrectly...they clearly represent something the model is not allowed to have and must be removed lest an opponent make a decision based on the false assumption that Dire Avengers have and/or may have assault grenades.

I'll refrain since I'm not familiar with the Eldar codex.

There most certainly IS a problem with taking WYSIWYG too far, and this holster/no holster blather just proves it. Hard line WYSIWYG observers need a dose of their own medicine from the other perspective, so if they have something on their model(s) that will cause a player to question the legality of a model having the availability for said and such upgrade in the first place said bit(z) need to be removed in order to comply with WYSIWYG...

Bring it on. I'm already buying the toxin sacs to put on my genestealers and hormagaunts. If a tournament says WYSIWYG, then you better believe I'm going to call it out.

Or, when the guy says "The holster on his hip represents an Infernus pistol.", you could say "Cool. Good luck, friend. Let's have a good game."

In a friendly game, yes.

Commisarkurn - so, another reading fail there.

Reread my posts. Note that bit about "upgrades"? Note that we're talking about an infernus pistol, whicih is an UPGRADE?

UPGRADES must be modelled. Sheesh, NOT a hard concept!

Boss - no, it looks like a generic pistol. So, its a bolt pistol, because that is what the model is armed with by default.

If you want an infernus, model an infernus, or dont go to a tournament where WYSIWYG is a requirement. Otherwise - guess what, that model doesnt get to play (at best!) when someone complains. ESPECIALLY if you have 10 guys with holsters, 2 have infernus, 1 has plasma and 7 have bolt pistols. I am not going to spend time and effort remembering something the rules of the tournament told you YOU must comply with.

Yes...I understand...upgrades.
Does every player memorize every upgrade option for every unit in every codex. Possible, but I'm sure not every single player does, even tourney attendees. So, by the very definition of WYSIWYG nothing may be added that isn't allowed for, nor may anything be omitted, regardless if it's standard or not. Otherwise "WHAT YOU SEE" is not applicable.

This response is not about you, NOS. This is about WYSIWYG.
And in future, if you would like to make an obscure reference to something I have posted in the past that you disagreed with, I kindly ask you now and in the future to stow it.

commissarkurn wrote:Yes...I understand...upgrades.
Does every player memorize every upgrade option for every unit in every codex. Possible, but I'm sure not every single player does, even tourney attendees. So, by the very definition of WYSIWYG nothing may be added that isn't allowed for, nor may anything be omitted, regardless if it's standard or not. Otherwise "WHAT YOU SEE" is not applicable.

Upgrades must be WYSIWYG. If someone uses grenades with a space marine unit, and is questioned about the models lacking grenades, an answer of "standard issue" is enough. If you don't believe him, check his codex. You're taking this into a straw man extreme.

Far Seer - go Holster, bro. It's a good call.

commissarkurn - chillax, mayne. Yes, every good player memorizes every upgrade for every unit in his own codex (or codices). If you think someone modeled something that is BS ask them to show you in their codex, or call over a judge. WYSIWYG should actually read WYSIWYGBIWYMICOTLTYCUTMAWMLL, which means "what you see is what you get, but if what you modeled isn't codex or tournament legal then you can't use that model and will most likely lose".
Acronyms...

You also have to account for tastes visually. If I model a Khorne berserker with two chain axes that doesn't mean that he get's extra attacks, it just means he looks cool. Conversely, if you model a dreadnaught with two ccw and lascannons strapped to the bottom of them you are going to get confused looks from everyone (unless it's like a GK dread, they probably get stuff like that standard).

Really, it comes down to "If you model it, you better have paid the points for it - and if you pay points for it, it better be modeled."

I think it would be fine with the holster on the sargent, as long as other sargents don't have a holsters.

The point of wysiwyg is so that there is no confusion for your opponent on what guy has what upgrades. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal to some of you, but it causes a disadvantage because the opponent has to remember that their is a holster on that guy, and that it contains a infernus pistol, rather than just seeing the pistol.

What if an opponent told you an infernus was in the holster at the beginning of the game. Now fast forward to turn 6. It's super competitive and you guys are nearly tied. The game has been hard fought for 2 hours. You tank shock him to move his troops off an objective, but angle over his sergeant because you forgot he had the infernus because the holster isn't very visable. He blows your tank up in a death and glory and you end up losing. How does that feel? If the pistol was visable you would have automatically known and won instead of losing. He gained an advantage from modelling, and that is not fair.

commissarkurn wrote:Yes...I understand...upgrades.

Which means only upgrades, as thats what tourney packs say.

commissarkurn wrote:Does every player memorize every upgrade option for every unit in every codex. Possible, but I'm sure not every single player does, even tourney attendees. So, by the very definition of WYSIWYG nothing may be added that isn't allowed for, nor may anything be omitted, regardless if it's standard or not. Otherwise "WHAT YOU SEE" is not applicable.

Again, youre twisting this around.

What "every player" does, generally, is know what basic equipment models come with. So BP/Bolter/Frag/Krak for a standard codex marine. This means that you know to expect that a meltagun in the unit would be modelled, as it is an upgrade. Its not tricky.

commissarkurn wrote:And in future, if you would like to make an obscure reference to something I have posted in the past that you disagreed with, I kindly ask you now and in the future to stow it.

sigh

OK, how about this - you posted

"By NOS's definition, the holstered pistol bit doesn't look like ANY pistol, bolt, Infernus or otherwise. "

This is False. I actually posted that a holstered pistol looks like a GENERIC pistol -as in, it could be any of bolt, plasma, infernus. So, lying about what I said? Fail

"Also by NOS's definition, every type of grenade needs to be modeled onto a Tactical Marine,"

This is False. I NEVER stated anything like that. I stated *upgrades* must be modeled and - guess what. Theyre standard equipment. So, lying about what I said? Fail

"as well as actual bolt pistol bitz (since the holstered pistol looks like nothing, and isn't even representative of a bolt pistol-sans-clip in size). "

Thats 2 lies right there.

Understand now? In future, when you maie gak up about what I supposedly said, or insert words into my mouth that I never posted, dont.

I would strongly reccomend that everyone stops and takes a deep breath before posting further in this thread. For good measure, maybe remind yourselves that you're discussing the rules of a game of toy soldiers. The snark is unnecessary, and adds nothing constructive to the discussion.

nosferatu1001 wrote: If you want an infernus, model an infernus, or dont go to a tournament where WYSIWYG is a requirement. Otherwise - guess what, that model doesnt get to play (at best!) when someone complains. ESPECIALLY if you have 10 guys with holsters, 2 have infernus, 1 has plasma and 7 have bolt pistols. I am not going to spend time and effort remembering something the rules of the tournament told you YOU must comply with.

I run RTTs almost every other month for my gaming club and you are wrong. If someone brings a SGT with a holstered pistol and paid the points for an infernus pistol I will allow it as long as no other models have holstered weapons. Oddly enough in the 4 years I've been here in this area doing this I haven't had a single WYSIWYG complaint. Go figure.

Are they tournaments within your club? Thats a bit different to running a 120 player tournament with people turning up from all over the country to play.

Nice logical fallacies there though - appeal to authority and personal experience as objective fact

Also: "paid the points for an infernus pistol I will allow it as long as no other models have holstered weapons."

Did you read any of my other posts? For example the one about "counts as " (which the holster is doing) and being consistent? You're not exactly making a new point here...

Well if you include folks coming in from 2 other states to enter tournies I run that aren't club regulars then yes. And oddly enough we don't even use the INAT and still have fun competive tournies.

And again the holstered weapon is not a "counts as" unless you can can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that infernus pistols in holsters are different.

I have always taken WYSIWYG as there to remove confusion. So, if you have 3 Sgts, 2 of which have IP upgrades and those two models have a holstered pistol, that should be good enough. If however all three have holstered pistols representing both IP and Bolt Pistols, then that is confusing.

Homer

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Well if you include folks coming in from 2 other states to enter tournies I run that aren't club regulars then yes. And oddly enough we don't even use the INAT and still have fun competive tournies.

We dont use INAT either, as a general rule - its not seen often in the UK.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:And again the holstered weapon is not a "counts as" unless you can can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that infernus pistols in holsters are different.

ERm, come again? I need to prove that a HOLSTER is different to an INFERNUS PISTOL? Are you kidding now?

When I see a holster, are you saying you see an Infernus pistol? Because if not then you are indeed in the realms of "counts as" - the "holster" is counts-as an Infernus pistol, because the two are in no way shape or form the same items.

Homer S wrote:I have always taken WYSIWYG as there to remove confusion. So, if you have 3 Sgts, 2 of which have IP upgrades and those two models have a holstered pistol, that should be good enough. If however all three have holstered pistols representing both IP and Bolt Pistols, then that is confusing.

Homer

This, exactly.

So in your world a holstered weapon is not allowed to be used for anything other than decoration? I'm saying I see an infernus pistol in a holster. It isn't that difficult a concept to grasp as long as no other models have holsters that carry other weapons then I do no have an issue with it and would allow it.

I believe this is at the point where we will never agree and I'm fine with that.

Erm, can you please, for once, point out where those words youre putting into my mouth come from?

You're making ludicrous statements not based off any thing ive actually stated.

No, as I've said AT LEAST 3 times now, a holster can be used to represent a pistol in a "counts as" fashion. The fact it can stand in for Infernus, Plasma or Bolt is the PROBLEM you are not acknowledging here - by definition unless you represent the actual piece of wargear, you are playing Counts-As. It doesnt get simpler than that - unless you represent the actual piece of wargear somewhere on the model you have not complied with WYSIWYG, but are attempting counts-as. These are separate concepts.

This is fine for most places- as I've said and even commented on YOU stating this - as long as it isnt confusing. I even gave an example of 10 guys with holsters to illustrate the issue. But it is NOT wysiwyg. It cannot be because what you see (a holster containing A generic pistol) is NOT what you are "getting" (an infernus pistol, aka a specific pistol)

"I'm saying I see an infernus pistol in a holster."
This, by definition, is a strict lie - you cannot make that statement with certainty. You are seeing A pistol in a holster that you have been TOLD is an Infernus pistol. That is NOT wysiwyg. I'm an auditor by trade so I'm being precise with my language here - not trying to offend but to explain, using the limited mode of communication that is text only, the differences in concept here.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:So in your world a holstered weapon is not allowed to be used for anything other than decoration? I'm saying I see an infernus pistol in a holster. It isn't that difficult a concept to grasp as long as no other models have holsters that carry other weapons then I do no have an issue with it and would allow it.

I believe this is at the point where we will never agree and I'm fine with that.

It can be used to represent a specific pistol, if no other holster in the army is being used to represent a different specific pistol.

Which is what we've been saying. You keep strawmaning.

WYSIWYG is making this deal even more complicated, but I do understand the value of it. The problem is if I want to take another pistol instead of the infernus, I'd have to find a way to magnetise both of the pistols onto the guy''s arm, shoulder, whatever, etc. Since bolt pistols are standard equipment, if my sergeants with the 2 handed TH had NO pistol modelled on them, would I be allowed to use his bolt pistol?

Yes. As we've said - places that try to enforce WYSIWYG across all equipment - even standard issue - are silly. You should only have to worry about upgrades.

And yes. Modeling upgrades isn't always trivial. But it's part of the hobby.

Perfectly fine with me, but if your really worried about it, just glue one of the holstered pistols bits on them. Problem solved

Far Seer - yes, if you havent bought an upgrade you dont need to model anything special. As long as he looks like a sarge I know he comes with a pistol, so you get to use it.

Boy do some people know how to take the joy out of playing a game. If you tell me it is an inferno it is an inferno, get over your nitpicking, anal attitudes and remember we are mostly adullts playing with toy soldiers!

Sheesh, we'd never have thought of that

OK, so what if there are 10 guys with holsters, all identically painted, 3 have infernus, 2 plasma and the rest bolt pistols. Now imagine its the 3rd or 4th game of the day, and you're suddenly expected to remember who has what (because they all look identical) because the person couldnt be bothered to follow the rules of the tournament

THAT sucks mroe fun out of the game, especially when coincidentally its always the squad within 3" that has the infernus, and the plasma are next to your terminators.

Except he's talking about two Sgts, not ten, and they're all equipped the same way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sheesh, we'd never have thought of that

OK, so what if there are 10 guys with holsters, all identically painted, 3 have infernus, 2 plasma and the rest bolt pistols. Now imagine its the 3rd or 4th game of the day, and you're suddenly expected to remember who has what (because they all look identical) because the person couldnt be bothered to follow the rules of the tournament

THAT sucks mroe fun out of the game, especially when coincidentally its always the squad within 3" that has the infernus, and the plasma are next to your terminators.

I agree, if you have multiple models with different pistols all in holsters it is confusing. If the different pistols are differentiated somehow, it makes it a bit easier.

Fearspect wrote:Except he's talking about two Sgts, not ten, and they're all equipped the same way.

ANd its still not WYSIWYG. It's counts -as

"These Holsters COUNT AS infernus pistols"

If you are entering a competition which requires full wysiwyg on upgrades, and disallows Counts as, then using holsters is NOT wysiwyg and is therefore against the rules

Conflating the two terms is misleading.

I am going to model 100 orks with long capes and backpacks. Then I will tell opponents that all the weapons of these orks are held under the capes and backpacks. If they could cross-section the plastic backpack, you would find a slugga on this one and a loota on this one.

My entire army is WYSIWYG.

nkelsch wrote:I am going to model 100 orks with long capes and backpacks. Then I will tell opponents that all the weapons of these orks are held under the capes and backpacks. If they could cross-section the plastic backpack, you would find a slugga on this one and a loota on this one.

My entire army is WYSIWYG.

Love it!

@nosferatu1001
After reading your posts, I realised that I would never play you, you just sound pathetic.

'All I can see is a holster, not a weapon' well by that logic, I cannot see your space marines, all I can see is a lot of dynamically posed armour. I can even take this to the next level, I see no space marines, I only see some toy soldiers.

Personal attacks are against DakkaDakka rules. Any legitimate point can be made without resorting to insults. Thanks! ~Manchu

K? I agree with him. A holster by itself is not a weapon.

edit: Also, you don't need to resort to insults. You should probably edit that out.

Its odd. I have plenty of opponents who seem to enjoy playing me....*shrug*

If you cant see why being able to actually see an infernus pistol is sometimes important, despite 4 pages of people trying to explain it - not sure you'll ever understand.

I would play Nos, he seems to know what he is doing, and with the record he has on Dakka, he clearly knows hopw to play a game. Look me up if you are ever in Belfast.

Will do City I've never been to , will have to try to get a work trip over one day!

I too would love to try going against Nos, unfortunately, he would hate to play me (too many "counts as" until I can finish modding)

I dont have a problem with Counts As. Not at all - as I've *repeatedly* said! I love awesome looking armies - hell I played (5th game Indy GT 2011, Maelstrom games) an entirely "counts as" army of Ad Mech, using nid rules. It was *awesome*

All I am doing is showing the difference between WYSIWYG and Counts as, and explaining why one isnt the other - and if your event requires the former what that means.

Far Seer wrote:WYSIWYG is making this deal even more complicated, but I do understand the value of it. The problem is if I want to take another pistol instead of the infernus, I'd have to find a way to magnetise both of the pistols onto the guy''s arm, shoulder, whatever, etc. Since bolt pistols are standard equipment, if my sergeants with the 2 handed TH had NO pistol modelled on them, would I be allowed to use his bolt pistol?

I keep a magnet on the rear left/right of most of my sergeant's belts, for attaching additional wargear, like Melta Bombs and such. The same concept should work just fine for Infernus Pistols and Bolt Pistols (you're not required to model a Bolt Pistol, but I try to do so anyway on models that don't have any other gun).

@nosferatu1001 I realise I may have been a bit OTT there, what I mean is, if you are playing to the levels of strict WYSIWYG that you are describing, I think that you would take things to stupid levels of RAW, which would make you undiserible to play against IMHO.
Of course, I don't know you IRL, so I can't really make any sort of judgement on you.

OT; I think that if you clearly state which unit has what, and that said sergeant has his inferno pistol in his holster because he hasn't got it in his hand, it should be alright, although make sure your opponent is OK with it.

Hey,


There is a very simple solution to this.

Put the holster on the Sgt.

Clip the handle.

Replace with an infernus pistol handle or something something similar so it doesn't look like a standard holster.

Problem solved.

Nothing says the model has to be holding the weapon ready to fire. I do agree that it does need a bit more representation than a plain holster.


Good luck!

empirespy wrote:
OT; I think that if you clearly state which unit has what, and that said sergeant has his inferno pistol in his holster because he hasn't got it in his hand, it should be alright, although make sure your opponent is OK with it.

But 'you should have to remember what I saw and not what you can see on the model' is a burden on your opponent. And your position is if he doesn't want to be burdened, then something is wrong with him.

In competitive environments with WYSWIYG rules, you do not have the right or expectation to force burdens on opponents, regardless if you think it is reasonable to do so.

Holsters are not WYSIWYG or COUNTS AS, especially if you have 10 models with holsters and only 3 of them have inferno pistols. This is the same garbage of the chainsword being power weapons or CC weapons because people don't want to model simple and clear upgrades. If you opponent has to 'remember' anything, then it is a burden and you shouldn't expect to get away with it when WYSIWYG is required. It is an entitled 'rules don't apply to me' attitude.

empirespy wrote:@nosferatu1001 I realise I may have been a bit OTT there, what I mean is, if you are playing to the levels of strict WYSIWYG that you are describing, I think that you would take things to stupid levels of RAW, which would make you undiserible to play against IMHO.

He's stated - many times - that when he's discussing WYSIWYG it's in relation to tournaments/events that require WYSIWYG. If you sign up for such an event, and show up with something like holsters instead of pistols, or all LasCannons where you mean to have Missile Launchers, it's your fault for not complying and you should expect someone to call over the TO.

@Nos
Apologies. From reading your posts it seemed to me that you only play strictly WYSIWYG. Then again as only Character models (which I'm assuming to be IC's as named characters don't normally have options) have to be WYSIWYG, maybe there wouldn't be a problem...

Yes but you can see its a holstered infernus pistol.

But hey, if you want to get extreme RAW, you dont have to use WYSIWYG for your non character models. So man go save some cash, and buy the cheapest models gw sells and model them as what ever. Completely RAW. [/sarcasm]

Edit: If you clear it with a TO before hand, (as in not the day of the tournement) and they approve your good to go. I got the same set up with my company commander.

Outside of tournaments with wysiwyg rules I really dont mind - the more difficult it is for me to remember what is what, the more silly questions I'm likely to keep on asking, however

UCs are characters as well, so normally you would expect those to be modelled correctly as well.

Thanks for apologies guys - on a rules forum I'm naturally a fairy RAW heavy guy - because otherwise you dont come to a solution on a question However IRL - well I *hope* i'm a good opponent, I do my absolute best to be!

I'm saying that if you have one model with a holster, and a thunderhammer, And its clearly visible hostler too, then it is WYSISYG as a X pistol. I have a Company Command that has a plasma pistol, but its holstered. only guy with this set up. No TO has said boo.

I got custom meltas too, where they are ig flamers that i've converted to a melta gun. It is clearly a meltagun, but from what i've read these are not WYSIWYG, because they are not GW made meltas. Even though there isnt a rule on conversions. Except it has to be a gw product to start with. Just an observation from this thread.

This discussion seems to have gone as far as it is going to. As with any WYSIWYG issue, ultimately the key is to make your army as easy to understand as you can, and discuss any tricky bits with your opponent.

Moving on.