Pacific wrote:You're lucky (in relative terms) that you are even able to buy the miniatures following the embargo. For some of us in other parts of the world that have no official GW presence, the GW hobby has effectively been smothered.

I've taken the hint, and have moved on (Infinity and gone back to doing some Flames of War stuff). As other posters have said, these days we are fortunate that there are so many other options.

I can atest to that, LA does not even have an online site, much less a retailor (not that we would pay artificialy inflated prices any way). On the bright side, my SW army is done, and i am waitting for Mantic humans to re do my Empire army or switch to undead if i dont like them. There are other options than GW minis out there, even if you are playing WH.

Give it a couple of years, once they realize they shoot their foot off, they will lift the embargo. Specially now that PP and Mantic will be becoming competition.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:You are so right
I am unemployed and at the behest of so many rightminded Dakka members have decided to forgo the pleasures of Games Workshop HHHobbying.

It was wrong to think that I could participate in a rich nerds' HHHobby and beg forgiveness for my impertinence and hubris.
Now it will be watching daytime tv for me like a good and proper benefit scrounger. The Jeremy Kyle Show awaits.
I humbly doff my cap and grovel at your feet.

Yours from the wrong side of the tracks,
Chibi "Please Sir May I Have Some More" Gutter-Snipe.

I was unemployed for 5 months, and under-employed going on 8 months. You know what I did for those 5 months? I quit buying hobby stuff. Not just GW hobby stuff but all hobby stuff that I did when I was employed.

The OP asked "How are kids and the unemployedsuppose to afford?" The answer... Their not. When I was fully employed I had a car, a truck, and a Sports car. When I lost my job, I gave up my hobby (My Mustang). I sold it because I could not afford it. I did not send Ford a letter complaining about the high price of their car, and the fact that I could no longer afford it.

Slipstream wrote:This is unbelievable! Because I'm unemployed I'm not allowed hobbies? Are you seriously trying to say you are not being elitist? I've always wondered where I've been going wrong all my life! Now the 'elitists' have shown me the error of ny ways. I'll be forever in your debt(sarcasm).

I guess we have to use smaller words or something here, since you seem unable to grasp the core concept. If you are unemployed, lacking a steady source of income, then ipso facto, you are not going to be able afford certain luxuries. Are you going to go bitch at Tesco about their prices because you want to buy some new video games, but can't afford them because you're unemployed?

guyperson5 wrote:Please help me in my urge to make GW prices lower. In Aus, they expect us to buy a (small) paint pot for $6 and $103 for a Land Raider. How are kids or unemployed people meant to get that much money? Also Terminator Squads cost $74 and all you get is a five little plastic men . I urge you to email Games Workshop about the prices.
End ramble

Well, AUS$103 equals 73 Euro. In Germany, a LR costs 52 Euro. That's an increase of 140%.

Portugal Jones wrote:

Slipstream wrote:This is unbelievable! Because I'm unemployed I'm not allowed hobbies? Are you seriously trying to say you are not being elitist? I've always wondered where I've been going wrong all my life! Now the 'elitists' have shown me the error of ny ways. I'll be forever in your debt(sarcasm).

I guess we have to use smaller words or something here, since you seem unable to grasp the core concept. If you are unemployed, lacking a steady source of income, then ipso facto, you are not going to be able afford certain luxuries. Are you going to go bitch at Tesco about their prices because you want to buy some new video games, but can't afford them because you're unemployed?

It's is just an example of the sense of entitlement people have nowadays. Folks just want things to benefit them, they don't see the big picture.

Bully for you
Is beside the point. There is always someone on Dakka willing to spout on about if you can't afford it you are not welcome.
That attitude stinks. If it is what GW want their HHHobby to be then I am glad to be out it (and no that is not sour grapes).

There is this tradition of receiving presents in cash or goods. There are second hand markets for cheaper toys.
And yet you feel that someone on the rock and roll is beneath your contempt for trying to spend their spare time doing something constructive.

That should be, "they're not" btw

Edit:
The bigger picture is still that in certain parts of the world, even people with plenty of spare dollars burning holes in their pockets are expected to pay even more over the odds than the rest of us.
Sheesh, I'm all right Jack!

Move to a real country not located at the ass-end of the world? You do live in a penal colony after all...

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Bully for you
Is beside the point. There is always someone on Dakka willing to spout on about if you can't afford it you are not welcome.
That attitude stinks. If it is what GW want their HHHobby to be then I am glad to be out it (and no that is not sour grapes).

There is this tradition of receiving presents in cash or goods. There are second hand markets for cheaper toys.
And yet you feel that someone on the rock and roll is beneath your contempt for trying to spend their spare time doing something constructive.

That should be, "they're not" btw

Edit:
The bigger picture is still that in certain parts of the world, even people with plenty of spare dollars burning holes in their pockets are expected to pay even more over the odds than the rest of us.
Sheesh, I'm all right Jack!

I'm not really following what you're trying to say. Can you rephrase?

This is why I prefer to winter in Warseer, their Proles know their place.

I keed, I keed!

mikhaila wrote:

kitch102 wrote:Just thinking outside the box here, no idea if it's even viable, but is it possible to set up a mail forwarding address in a northern hemisphere country? Ie, buy through GW UK website, ship to address in London, which has a mail divert to your real address in Aus?

Pure question, no idea if it'd even work...?

Maybe one friend shipping to another, but not going to work after that. The poor guy doing all the work will also get the hassles when stuff is late or damaged, screwed out of money by someone eventually, or his wife will throw a fit about all the extra time he's putting in running to the post office. It would have to be set up like a business of some sort to do it, and then that can end up with it's own problems.

There are professional freight forwarding services that can do it. But the cost may eat up any savings.

CT GAMER wrote:Move to a real country not located at the ass-end of the world? You do live in a penal colony after all...

Great, now you've done it. Now all we're going to hear about from the UK posters is comments on the War of Insurrection.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Bully for you
Is beside the point. There is always someone on Dakka willing to spout on about if you can't afford it you are not welcome.
That attitude stinks. If it is what GW want their HHHobby to be then I am glad to be out it (and no that is not sour grapes).

There is this tradition of receiving presents in cash or goods. There are second hand markets for cheaper toys.
And yet you feel that someone on the rock and roll is beneath your contempt for trying to spend their spare time doing something constructive.

That should be, "they're not" btw

Edit:
The bigger picture is still that in certain parts of the world, even people with plenty of spare dollars burning holes in their pockets are expected to pay even more over the odds than the rest of us.
Sheesh, I'm all right Jack!

Nobody said those who had tighter purse strings were not welcome. On the flip side don't expect companies/others to make special exception based on that argument. If people want to get into something above their means the reality is it will take them longer to get what they want. Bitching because the price doesn't then accomodate them is just not logical.

I would imagine there are many more variables in the equation than just GW charges more for the greed of it. For example the UK has an average salary quoted as 31k where Aus has 66k. I would also imagine there is some sort of import duty imposed buy the Aus government, transit costs , currency variables and opening up a new market is always risky/costly as it requires a lot of capital to get it going.

If unemployed people want to do something constructive with their spare time I would imagine using their time constructively to get a job/increase earnings would be better advice than playing plastic soldiers.

On reading your post it would appear the world/GW owes some people a living. The reality is a lot harsher I am afraid.

Please feel free to use as many small words as you feel capable of! What stinks is you've dug yourself a hole in declaring that if you have no steady income that you have no right to a good life. As for a false sense of entitlement...what? You don't seem to realise that you are advocating an 'us and them' attitude and that is really really sad. What next? Will you refuse to play somebody if they can't prove that they have a job?
Please do not attempt to lecture me on what I can and cannot buy.
If you want to see the 'big picture' go to the movies, but don't spout patronising gibberish at me.

Chimaera wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Bully for you
Is beside the point. There is always someone on Dakka willing to spout on about if you can't afford it you are not welcome.
That attitude stinks. If it is what GW want their HHHobby to be then I am glad to be out it (and no that is not sour grapes).

There is this tradition of receiving presents in cash or goods. There are second hand markets for cheaper toys.
And yet you feel that someone on the rock and roll is beneath your contempt for trying to spend their spare time doing something constructive.

That should be, "they're not" btw

Edit:
The bigger picture is still that in certain parts of the world, even people with plenty of spare dollars burning holes in their pockets are expected to pay even more over the odds than the rest of us.
Sheesh, I'm all right Jack!

Nobody said those who had tighter purse strings were not welcome. On the flip side don't expect companies/others to make special exception based on that argument. If people want to get into something above their means the reality is it will take them longer to get what they want. Bitching because the price doesn't then accomodate them is just not logical.

I would imagine there are many more variables in the equation than just GW charges more for the greed of it. For example the UK has an average salary quoted as 31k where Aus has 66k. I would also imagine there is some sort of import duty imposed buy the Aus government, transit costs , currency variables and opening up a new market is always risky/costly as it requires a lot of capital to get it going.

If unemployed people want to do something constructive with their spare time I would imagine using their time constructively to get a job/increase earnings would be better advice than playing plastic soldiers.

On reading your post it would appear the world/GW owes some people a living. The reality is a lot harsher I am afraid.

Just have to bold that for truth. I have many friends and relatives that are unemployed, and I know how hard it can be. No, you aren't going to be able to keep your BMW or going out to five star restaurants every night. Thinking you would be able to afford expensive toy soldiers is ignorant as well. When in hard times, you must sacrifice. Complaining that this hobby is too expensive for people that don't have jobs is just....laughable, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipstream wrote:Please feel free to use as many small words as you feel capable of! What stinks is you've dug yourself a hole in declaring that if you have no steady income that you have no right to a good life. As for a false sense of entitlement...what? You don't seem to realise that you are advocating an 'us and them' attitude and that is really really sad. What next? Will you refuse to play somebody if they can't prove that they have a job?
Please do not attempt to lecture me on what I can and cannot buy.
If you want to see the 'big picture' go to the movies, but don't spout patronising gibberish at me.

So you believe that if you wake up every morning then you deserve a good life, even if you are lazy and have no intent to further yourself?

I believe everyone deserves a good quality of life. But if you want luxuries, like that 5000 point CSM army or that BMW, you have to work for it.

There is no "us and them". Everyone makes their own way. If you are not successful in your life, how can you blame someone besides yourself?

Slipstream wrote:Please feel free to use as many small words as you feel capable of! What stinks is you've dug yourself a hole in declaring that if you have no steady income that you have no right to a good life. As for a false sense of entitlement...what? You don't seem to realise that you are advocating an 'us and them' attitude and that is really really sad. What next? Will you refuse to play somebody if they can't prove that they have a job?
Please do not attempt to lecture me on what I can and cannot buy.
If you want to see the 'big picture' go to the movies, but don't spout patronising gibberish at me.

If I or anyone else had said half the things you claim you may have had some valid points. As it stands you are the only person spouting gibberish.

Feeling the desire to jump in here and point out that no-ones saying that an unemployed person must not be permitted to buy hobby related products. People are saying that if a person is unemployed, they should and likely will have more important things to pay for than hobby related goodness, such as food, rent, gas & electricity etc.

Elitism is not being spouted here, just common sense. I can see that as I am one of the people that, despite having no job, decided to rack up thousands of pounds of credit card debt. But we learn the hard way. That's an example of what not to do, and what is being advocated against here (I think that reads right...).

Sit, chill, take a breath and try to understand what the other person's saying before a knee jerk reaction of a post makes you a look a little.... well.... insert your own choice of word here

Slipstream wrote:Please feel free to use as many small words as you feel capable of! What stinks is you've dug yourself a hole in declaring that if you have no steady income that you have no right to a good life. As for a false sense of entitlement...what? You don't seem to realise that you are advocating an 'us and them' attitude and that is really really sad. What next? Will you refuse to play somebody if they can't prove that they have a job?
Please do not attempt to lecture me on what I can and cannot buy.
If you want to see the 'big picture' go to the movies, but don't spout patronising gibberish at me.

No one said unemployed people have no right to a good life. No one has even came remotely close to saying you have to have a job to play the game. However, if you don't have a job then you cannot expect to buy what ever you want, and you sure can't complain about the price of the toys. We are not talking about milk and bread here people.

I think too many people confuse NEEDS and WANTS. Anything GW related is a WANT. I might say "I need a Tact squad to finish my army", but what I really mean is "I WANT a tact squad to finish my army".

What I will not do is lecture people about not looking for a job versus playing 40K. When I was unemployed, there was only so much I could do in a day when it came to finding a job. So I do not agree with the people saying "put the toys down and start looking for a job."

However, there is no us and them attitude. There is a "Can i afford it?" question that needs to be asked by everyone. Yelling at the company because you can't afford it because you are young in school or unemployed is stupid. I make a decent living (less than what I use to but decent) and I can't always afford GW products. I might complain, but GW can still charge what ever they want for their stuff. My income bracket should not set their pricing levels. I either save my money for the purchases I WANT, get a second job, or find a way to increase my income. Telling GW it's not fair and they need to lower their prices because it better fits my life is not an option that will get results.

jbunny wrote:However, if you don't have a job then you cannot expect to buy what ever you want, and you sure can't complain about the price of the toys.

Why can't unemployed people complain about the price of toys? They've got just as much of a right to complain as the next person.

I agree that if you're unemployed you shouldn't buy miniatures (try painting your armies instead), but that doesn't mean they don't have a legitimate argument.

Agree with everything you say jbunny, though an interesting point / poll/ discussion part would be to find out what the average take home salary is per hobbyist, as it stands to reason that any company shouldn't price themselves out of their main market.

ie, if the majority of hobbyists have (for instance) £10 spare per month for luxuries, why then make a box £20? Stands to reason that if you made a £10 box then you'd sell twice as much.

Yes, I understand it would be at a lower product margin & what have you, I just think it would be an interesting point to discuss. Yes I know it's been done elsewhere on Dakka, I just think it fit well with this thread.

kitch102 wrote:Agree with everything you say jbunny, though an interesting point / poll/ discussion part would be to find out what the average take home salary is per hobbyist, as it stands to reason that any company shouldn't price themselves out of their main market.

A poll was done last year. You can see it here.

biccat wrote:

jbunny wrote:However, if you don't have a job then you cannot expect to buy what ever you want, and you sure can't complain about the price of the toys.

Why can't unemployed people complain about the price of toys? They've got just as much of a right to complain as the next person.

I agree that if you're unemployed you shouldn't buy miniatures (try painting your armies instead), but that doesn't mean they don't have a legitimate argument.

I think you misunderstood my point. Just because I have a job, gives me no right to complain and demand a lower price either. It is GW's right to set the price they want to. Do I complain about the price to friends? Yeah, Do I send letters to GW telling it's not fair because I can't afford their products? NO. I have no right to do so.

Seems a lot of people are given to equating GW products with quality automobiles in an incredibly unrealistic fashion. Failcost and little pots of paint are nowhere near the same thing, and the levels of disposable income required to fund them are nowhere near comparable. If you must make such comparisons, how about finding something that is genuinely comparable? Games and gaming is much closer than Lambos and Mustangs.

Oh, and not everybody who is unemployed is a jobseeker, or capable of being employed. Or are we saying that the disabled shouldn't have hobbies either? I rather hope not...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chimaera wrote:

If unemployed people want to do something constructive with their spare time I would imagine using their time constructively to get a job/increase earnings would be better advice than playing plastic soldiers.

On reading your post it would appear the world/GW owes some people a living. The reality is a lot harsher I am afraid.

Such as.. painting GW figures and selling them on Ebay for profit?

You advocate 24-7 jobsearch then? Jobsearching even when the rest of the nation is not at work?

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Seems a lot of people are given to equating GW products with quality automobiles in an incredibly unrealistic fashion. Failcost and little pots of paint are nowhere near the same thing, and the levels of disposable income required to fund them are nowhere near comparable. If you must make such comparisons, how about finding something that is genuinely comparable? Games and gaming is much closer than Lambos and Mustangs.

Oh, and not everybody who is unemployed is a jobseeker, or capable of being employed. Or are we saying that the disabled shouldn't have hobbies either? I rather hope not...

Again, that is not what anyone here is saying, at all. "Unemployed" usually means between jobs and on unemployment pay, and looking for another job. Do I think prices should be cheaper? Of course. Then EVERYONE could play and field whatever army they wanted. Sadly that is not the case, as we do not make those decisions. Feel free to put your case towards GW with why you feel prices should be lower so the unemployed can continue the hobby. Your words will fall upon the deaf ears of GW.

And I still think equating luxury cars to a luxury hobby is fine, as they are both things that a person does not need to survive. Please put forth some examples as to why you think differently.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Seems a lot of people are given to equating GW products with quality automobiles in an incredibly unrealistic fashion. Failcost and little pots of paint are nowhere near the same thing, and the levels of disposable income required to fund them are nowhere near comparable. If you must make such comparisons, how about finding something that is genuinely comparable? Games and gaming is much closer than Lambos and Mustangs.

Oh, and not everybody who is unemployed is a jobseeker, or capable of being employed. Or are we saying that the disabled shouldn't have hobbies either? I rather hope not...

Poor arguement. The whole 'don't keep poor/unemployed/disabled people from having hobbies' is a red herring. Of course no one is saying the disabled shouldn't have hobbies. They can do whatever they want. But no one has some entitlement to being able to afford, or afford at a price they are comfortable, little toy soldiers. Each person has their own level of spending they feel comfortable with, and can make their own decisions.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Such as.. painting GW figures and selling them on Ebay for profit?

You advocate 24-7 jobsearch then? Jobsearching even when the rest of the nation is not at work?

I honestly don't see how someone could make a fulltime paying job out of painting minis. Please prove me wrong.

As for job searching, I know there's only so much that a person can do to find one. But if you really do want a job, you will continue to look no matter how long it takes. If you don't want a job, you will find endless excuses as to why you have not found one yet.

There are various issues brought up in this thread, all are valid though they shouldn't be intermingled together.

1) Are the prices too high? The general consensus is yes. It means it has long priced some customers out, while many others are feeling the pinch.
Some are rich and the price is still tolerable for them.

2) Are the prices fair? This refers to the base price difference. If we set U.K Price as base, USA pays 5% extra, Canadians pays 25% extra, Japan pays 40% extra and Aussies pays 50% extra.
Which means a GW purchased at UK for $100, would cost Aussies $150 for the very same purchase.

3) GW should be considered as Luxury good, and GW prices them at a premium just as such.

4) "But if GW is essential to me personally as a hobby, then its not really a luxury good" This is where people complain about unemployed can't afford a hobby.

Consider this. One can afford a hobby, but one might not be able to afford GW as a hobby. they are 2 very different things.

If painting miniature and wargame is what you look for as a hobby, there are cheaper alternatives. May it be another company's game system. Or proxy with another company's products.
Or ever paper hammer ( playing with printed paper units if you are just in it for gaming ). If you are in it for painting, you can still paint the little green soldiers in a bag for 5 cents each.
Or purchase the Historical miniatures which tends to be way cheaper than GW's.

nectarprime wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Seems a lot of people are given to equating GW products with quality automobiles in an incredibly unrealistic fashion. Failcost and little pots of paint are nowhere near the same thing, and the levels of disposable income required to fund them are nowhere near comparable. If you must make such comparisons, how about finding something that is genuinely comparable? Games and gaming is much closer than Lambos and Mustangs.

Oh, and not everybody who is unemployed is a jobseeker, or capable of being employed. Or are we saying that the disabled shouldn't have hobbies either? I rather hope not...

Again, that is not what anyone here is saying, at all. "Unemployed" usually means between jobs and on unemployment pay, and looking for another job. Do I think prices should be cheaper? Of course. Then EVERYONE could play and field whatever army they wanted. Sadly that is not the case, as we do not make those decisions. Feel free to put your case towards GW with why you feel prices should be lower so the unemployed can continue the hobby. Your words will fall upon the deaf ears of GW.

And I still think equating luxury cars to a luxury hobby is fine, as they are both things that a person does not need to survive. Please put forth some examples as to why you think differently.

In the modern British circles populated by those who allow tabloid newspapers to form opinions for them, there is no distinction between "unemployable through disability" and "unemployed through lack of a job." All are considered one great scrounging gestalt of poor people bleeding the state dry on their "huge" benefits, with their "free" cars and huge houses. However inaccurate that view might be, it is propagated by the very people who pay those benefits, such that the politician responsible for benefits does not know that Motability cars are NOT free. (Amongst other examples.)

And the equating is fail, because of the massive price disparity. If you are lucky enough to have a job where you can afford a luxury sports car, and then unlucky enough to lose that job and join the ranks of "scroungers" (because yes, even if you have been gainfully employed beforehand, you are still tarred with the same lie-brush) then you are probably taking a massive cut in wages. The drop from lower wages is much smaller, so a more realistic comparison serves better. Comparing things most of us will never have to some plastic toys is ridiculous. Some people are so poor that they can't afford to be in the places where they could look at a premium sports car. Should the poor feel some empathy when they are told that rich people can't afford to have that second private jet?

Begrudging people a touch of escapism and colour from the dreary soul-destroying monotony of long term unemployment is frankly callous. Especially during a global recession where there are few jobs for people who have skill-sets, training, experience and a good CV, (resume?) never mind anyone else. Of course I'm in the UK, where we have a functioning welfare state, and (at least for now) state-funded healthcare for even the poorest. I imagine that's Utopian compared to living in a modern and civilised first-world superpower that allows its citizens to die of treatable ailments because they are poor.

When I had a job, I bought models. Now that I'm jobless and waiting for my welding course to begin, I paint the models I already have. Thankfully I pay board not rent so I'm able to budget for some paint and glue once in a while.

Although I have to say, assuming that "the jobs are out there" might be a fallacy in some places. For example if I was looking for a job in this city (rather than just riding it out until I can begin study), it would be hell. This is a predominantly hospitality and civil services town, and if even a single barista position opens at a cafe, you're looking at around 200 people applying for the one job. Apparently even more than that applied for the(single) checkout job at my local supermarket recently.

Now, the obvious answer would be re-locate, and I'm doing just that for study, where hopefully I'll be able to get some sort of hospo job to supplement my study. I just think that claiming that anyone can find a job if they look hard enough might not be 100% accurate in the current, über competitive jobmarket. I mean hell, I got a diploma at age 16, and I can't find work in the 3rd biggest city in the country. (hence going back to school to study engineering)

nectarprime wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Such as.. painting GW figures and selling them on Ebay for profit?

You advocate 24-7 jobsearch then? Jobsearching even when the rest of the nation is not at work?

I honestly don't see how someone could make a fulltime paying job out of painting minis. Please prove me wrong.

As for job searching, I know there's only so much that a person can do to find one. But if you really do want a job, you will continue to look no matter how long it takes. If you don't want a job, you will find endless excuses as to why you have not found one yet.

@ bold: How about the entire staff of the Eavy Metal department at GW? I know a guy who works there, and its his job. Painting little men. (Or it was until he got bumped up to the art department..but surely nobody can make a living drawing pictures of little toy soldiers??!!)

How many jobs do you think one can apply for in a given day? How many jobs do you think there are in a given area? Where I live, 30 posts at a new store received 500 applications. Suffice to say, most of them did not get a job out of it. In the current climate there really are limited job opportunities, especially in a country that has 20,000 less businesses in it than it did a decade ago, is downsizing its entire public sector (flooding the jobmarket with skilled and experienced workers) and giving away what is left of its industry to overseas concerns. I don't know about over there, but over here it isn't all that easy anymore. Judging from some of the media reports that do get out from "The Land of the Free", seems that its not so easy to just "get a job" there either. Our Macdonalds are full of degree-holders for a reason. So are yours.


Also, People who are paid to work don't work 24-7 and are not expected to work 24-7 , so its a bit rich to expect 24-7 work from people who are surviving on sub-minimum wage.

guyperson5 wrote:Please help me in my urge to make GW prices lower. In Aus, they expect us to buy a (small) paint pot for $6 and $103 for a Land Raider.
Also Terminator Squads cost $74 and all you get is a five little plastic men . I urge you to email Games Workshop about the prices.
End ramble

Edited and posted to remind people what the thread is really about.

Easy fix,Buy from ebay stores.Money is money theese days.If Gw wants stupid prices go on the web and find somebody who does not car about Gw embargo.Aka ebay stores.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

And the equating is fail, because of the massive price disparity. If you are lucky enough to have a job where you can afford a luxury sports car, and then unlucky enough to lose that job and join the ranks of "scroungers" (because yes, even if you have been gainfully employed beforehand, you are still tarred with the same lie-brush) then you are probably taking a massive cut in wages. The drop from lower wages is much smaller, so a more realistic comparison serves better. Comparing things most of us will never have to some plastic toys is ridiculous. Some people are so poor that they can't afford to be in the places where they could look at a premium sports car. Should the poor feel some empathy when they are told that rich people can't afford to have that second private jet?

Begrudging people a touch of escapism and colour from the dreary soul-destroying monotony of long term unemployment is frankly callous. Especially during a global recession where there are few jobs for people who have skill-sets, training, experience and a good CV, (resume?) never mind anyone else. Of course I'm in the UK, where we have a functioning welfare state, and (at least for now) state-funded healthcare for even the poorest. I imagine that's Utopian compared to living in a modern and civilised first-world superpower that allows its citizens to die of treatable ailments because they are poor.

Well a Mustang or Camero which cost between $35,000 and $45,000 depending on upgrades is hardly unreachable, but it does come with a trade off. So comparing owning a Sports car with buying GW products is comparable.

The bold part is wrong on so many levels. People are not begrudging people an escape, nor a hobby. People begrudge once a group starts crying foul because they can't afford the same things as better off people. I work and like to play golf, but I can't afford a membership to a country club. Should I complain to them about their fees? Should I demand they lower the cost of membership so I can have the same oppertunities of the CEO's that play there? After all I can still go play on public courses. But it's not the same thing. Just like I can buy cheaper company models so I can still paint and have a hobby.

col. krazy kenny wrote:Easy fix,Buy from ebay stores.Money is money theese days.If Gw wants stupid prices go on the web and find somebody who does not car about Gw embargo.Aka ebay stores.

How does ebay work for getting stuff for cheap?

If different people all want the same "cheap" auction, wouldn't it just climb up?
Factor in Aussies's base price is already 50% more expensive, wouldn't the bids sky rocket from that as well?

One thing to consider is that GW used be dirt cheap, I remember being able to buy a tactical squad for a tenner, and I don't think there was a huge difference between what you get in the pack then and now. Prices have risen over the last ten years to a (debatedly) extortionate amount and it's a matter of you can afford it or you can't.

Country clubs have always meant to be expensive though, to ensure that "the riff raff" don't get in.

But some things have always been out of the reach of "the poor", and been safely ensconced in privilege. (Country Club membership being a very obvious one.) Whether that is "right" or not is a different, slightly Communist argument, involving such issues as how much it actually costs to stick some holes in a field. GW was the realm of "pocket money" prices.. costs that could be safely absorbed by a paper-round, or saving up "sweets money". "The poor" could and did play it. It was a cheaper and more creative hobby than many others. Country Club golf was always some gold-plated exclusivity monster, which GW has now become despite being exactly the same thing as it was 30 years ago, but with cheaper materials. Its fair to complain that something that has seen no substantial increase in value should be priced out of the reach of the lowest wage-bands. Even more so when you deliberately over-price it for a whole nation, arbitrarily.

And still, not one good point as to how the car analogy is not correct.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I do feel for those of you who are out of a job right now, and I wish it was easier for you folks to enjoy the hobby. I really wish GW would change but they won't.

nectarprime wrote:And still, not one good point as to how the car analogy is not correct.

Because luxury cars are out of the price range of most individuals. GW (until it started ramping up its prices) products were not. The problem people have is not "I can't afford this thing I've never been able to afford anyway." The problem is "I can no longer afford this thing that I used to be able to afford, for no other reason than the personal greed of the shareholders."

<stay on topic>

Anyone care to explain Gillard's 'fair price laws', and how it relates to GWOZ? I've not heard of any 'fair price' legislation before.

Is this some sort of (typically) reactionary law to appease the retail sector over the strength of the Aussie dollar (not that it's as strong right now as it was a month ago), or something else?

guyperson5 wrote:Please help me in my urge to make GW prices lower. In Aus, they expect us to buy a (small) paint pot for $6 and $103 for a Land Raider. How are kids or unemployed people meant to get that much money? Also Terminator Squads cost $74 and all you get is a five little plastic men . I urge you to email Games Workshop about the prices.
End ramble

Stop playing and move on to other gaming.

GW's idea that they actually want you as a customer is a joke. Add it to the finecrap, and you have a great excuse to move on.

You know that you and I see eye-to-eye on most things Grot, but ‘move onto something else’ isn’t really a good solution. Some people only play 40K and not because they don’t know about anything else because they genuinely like it and don’t feel the need or desire to start a new game.

Take me as an example. I fully acknowledge that 40K is a terrible game with slapdash rule set that could do with a major overhaul. I also acknowledge that GW is a company that seemingly has no clue when it comes to business decisions (embargo, Failcost hyperbole, absurd pricing structure, focus on short-term profits with no eye to the future, etc.) – but y’know what? I like the 40K universe, and I don’t care if Warmachine or Malifaux are better games because I don’t have any interest in the universes the games inhabit. We’ve mostly switched over to FFG’s RPG’s rather than 40K-proper as, to quite a friend of mine, games of that feel like how games of 40K should feel. The only game outside of 40K related games that I play (excluding Warhammer Quest) is BattleTech, and, again, it’s because I love the universe (thankfully BTech’s rules are a lot better... but sadly the models are not). The only ‘new game’ I’ve branched out to in recent years is my pre-order for Soda Pop’s Super Dungeon Explore.

Disliking the company in charge doesn’t make for a compelling argument to throw it all away and search for greener pastures.

I'm sorry guys, but all of this talk of sports cars and GW has left me with a craving that I know can only be satisfied in one way:



Ahem.. sorry about that.

I think going back to the OP, a point which has been forgotten in the maelstrom, the price increases are gradually pushing more and more people out of the hobby. That much is inarguable. The ridiculous decision to make Aus prices linked to long out of date exchange rates has meant that that part of the world is simply ahead of the curve in terms of what the rest of us can expect to pay, although no doubt other places will catch up in time.

Because luxury cars are out of the price range of most individuals. GW (until it started ramping up its prices) products were not. The problem people have is not "I can't afford this thing I've never been able to afford anyway." The problem is "I can no longer afford this thing that I used to be able to afford, for no other reason than the personal greed of the shareholders."

While your final point is a different issue entirely, I agree with the first one you have made. GW games used to be far, far more easily accessible to those with a modest budget. These days, there is no skirmish or introductory board game option provided by the company, and seemingly nothing short of a massive horde of infantry and tanks/monsters on the tabletop will do if you collect in a way that both the rules systems and White Dwarf encourage. Certainly, getting into the hobby these days is a far more intimidating prospect for parents than when I was a child.

The game was never that accessible to "unemployed" people, no matter what era you played in. However, being a kid does not mean you have no income.. it means your income is dependent on your parents. PLENTY of kids have a lot of warhammer models

Most hobbies arent that accessible to the very poor, warhammer is no different. Is it overly expensive now? Probably but you DO have the option to buy everything used

I grew up without much money surrounded by much more wealthy kids and I kept up. You gotta learn to trade and buy stuff used.. Ebay is great, so is barter town. Making friends with a rich kid who plays the armies you like also helps when he gets bored :p

Again the point is not that is it is an expensive hobby, but for some crazy reason, it is relatively even more expensive in Australia.
Even allowing for possible excuses for transportation (ahem) and exchange rates, it is an expensive hobby PLUS. The plus being loads more dollars than the UK and USA are paying.

And we still await an explaination of this Fair Price comment

Transportation is just an excuse used by GW and pro GW group.
Maelstrom and Wayland have no issue with shipping that far yet GW insist on giving them embargo.

GW even uses the transportation excuse as a reason why the realm of battle board is 50$ more in the US (Or it was anyway).. despite having a factory here!

At the OP: I keep wanting to post "You must be new here..." and I've avoided it. But seriously...the only way to get GW to lower prices is for everyone to boycott. Not for a day. Not for a week. Not for a month. A year. If everyone stopped buying for a year, they'd have to listen. Is it possible? No. Nerds need their crack. But asking people to help you send an email is futile and won't work-it's been discussed to death already-hence questioning if you are new.

And as for the argument of "unemployed being able to afford it," well...I was living at poverty level for months during grad school. I had no options to spend money other than necessity to survive and pay bills. Did I buy any warhammer during that time? Nope, not a model. And I'm heavily addicted to it. Warhammer is a "want," not a "need." Hobbies are needed (otherwise you go stark-raving bonkers), but Warhammer may not be the best option. Nobody is saying to avoid hobbies. They are suggesting to avoid Warhammer, as it is not cost effective for everybody.

timetowaste85 wrote:At the OP: I keep wanting to post "You must be new here..." and I've avoided it. But seriously...the only way to get GW to lower prices is for everyone to boycott. Not for a day. Not for a week. Not for a month. A year. If everyone stopped buying for a year, they'd have to listen. Is it possible? No. Nerds need their crack. But asking people to help you send an email is futile and won't work-it's been discussed to death already-hence questioning if you are new.

And as for the argument of "unemployed being able to afford it," well...I was living at poverty level for months during grad school. I had no options to spend money other than necessity to survive and pay bills. Did I buy any warhammer during that time? Nope, not a model. And I'm heavily addicted to it. Warhammer is a "want," not a "need." Hobbies are needed (otherwise you go stark-raving bonkers), but Warhammer may not be the best option. Nobody is saying to avoid hobbies. They are suggesting to avoid Warhammer, as it is not cost effective for everybody.

Amen!

Buy Mantic Games miniatures and use them as GW proxy.

As of today, I finished checking every US seller, they cant sell out of USA, not even to Canada.

Well ...................... now what.

All the US sellers, Luna?

H.B.M.C. wrote:There is no need to buy from anywhere in Australia.

Are those AUD prices? If so, like it, a direct stick the finger to GW policy.

They're US prices, so roughly 1:1 depending on what day of the week it is. And their supply isn't coming direct from GW from what I understand, rather a middleman supplier, so they can sell them to whomever and in whatever manner they please.

H.B.M.C. wrote:They're US prices, so roughly 1:1 depending on what day of the week it is. And their supply isn't coming direct from GW from what I understand, rather a middleman supplier, so they can sell them to whomever and in whatever manner they please.

No need. the middleman is there to keep GW from refusing to sell to Dicebucket, which the only thing still in their power to do to stop them.
Dicebucket is acting legally because they are a second hand goods seller. Second hand goods are not subject to sellers terms and conditions in fact with notable exceptions such as underwear there are no legislations or restrictions at all. GW has no legal right to interfere with the sale of unboxed items, as far as the law is concerned whoever unboxes the product is the end user, and any subsequent sale is of second hand goods. This is the real reason why the boxes are chucked. Although it does also result in a genuine postal saving, I had all my US purchases for AT-43 directed to a US adress for depackaging and it resulted in a huge saving.

A few months ago we discussed how e-tailers would get around GW's ban on selling to Oz. Dicebucket is doing precisely what I predicted would happen right down to masking purchases and GW cannot do a thing about it.

Other option is to just buy them, sell them at a lower price to each other, Trade/ Swap them between each oter, pull them out of the box and sell them by sprue, and even so much as to intentionally go put a few together, halfway, and just put them in baggies and sell them that way.

That milflove goes a long way in helping to lower the price as well. You can go aroround, snatch up the stuff of the feebay, craigs list, and here, and resell it between what you pick up, trade, or find, you can more or less start selling kits off the cuff.

Seeing as it would theroeticly be third hand, I see no reason to not sell it as a lower price. GW can Blow, they have no leg to stand on in thrid hand markets.

Oz, some of you should take note.

I could see a very good market in your areas in doing this. Yes, there might be a little more legwork, but in a month or so, as GW keeps peeing on thier shoes, someone could easily get together with a couple of dudes and make this happen.

You put it in a regular place, such as over here in the swap shop, or an add in barter town and you have a steady flowing goldmine.

H.B.M.C. I had to rethink your position on that, and this is as near as I could come up with as a solution. Your point is well taken, seeing as I am going through this sort of a split personality fight myself.

Loves me some RT, Hate me some GW.

The other option is to deep dive off of were ever that ship went down with those loads of GW minis, and try to raise the titanic, but this was a better option.

Buy Mantic.

Problem solved.

Alternatively, rant at GW because you hate their prices, then rant at mantic because you hate their models, then cry yourself to sleep before buying a new plastic giant the next day.

Grot 6 wrote:Other option is to just buy them, sell them at a lower price to each other, Trade/ Swap them between each oter, pull them out of the box and sell them by sprue, and even so much as to intentionally go put a few together, halfway, and just put them in baggies and sell them that way.

A simplified corporate version of that is what I beleive is happening. Though swaps are nort feasible, instead agreement for some companies to buy from GW and where permitted, others take a little mark up hit on resale but get markets outside those GW sales terms allows. To remain legal the resellers themselves must make the product legally second hand in some fashion and their purchase must be in a geographic location the direct order suppliers can sell to under current conditions ie.e in US, Canada or Europe.

GW is stuffed because its a UK company and it is operating under that Data Protection Act, as are its primary suppliers.

All the suppliers need do is jump through GW's hoops and sell only where they are allowed, which includes a mask adress for companies like Dicebucket. GW cannot ask if a company is selling to Dicebucket because that is against Data Protection legislation. You or I might also be buying from the same online retailer, we have rights under Uk law even if the payee adress is outside the UK.

As possible comfort to HBMC and other antipodean buyers stung by GW's inept and insidious policy changes, perhaps (and this is not a finger pointing) perhaps Maelstrom or another well known e-tailer is selling to Dicebucket, and will get away with it because buyers like HMBC have their right not to have their purchase details shared with a third party under law. Maybe the same sale account that sold Dakka members stuff in South africa, New Zealand and Australia is the same sales account that supplies places like Dicebucket and your previous custom is their legal shield against detection.

scarletsquig wrote:Buy Mantic.

Problem solved.

Alternatively, rant at GW because you hate their prices, then rant at mantic because you hate their models, then cry yourself to sleep before buying a new plastic giant the next day.

Says the guy with the Mantic tag.....


How random is that? LMAO

Grot 6 wrote:

Says the guy with the Mantic tag.....


How random is that? LMAO

Says the guy working for the...CDC Voodoo Division.

scarletsquig wrote:Buy Mantic.

Problem solved.

Alternatively, rant at GW because you hate their prices, then rant at mantic because you hate their models, then cry yourself to sleep before buying a new plastic giant the next day.

Believe me, I'd like to. I have another 40 or so Ghouls and Zombies to buy as well as another 70 Skeletons. My FLGS stocks Kings of War stuff. I just have a thing against buying terrible models, no matter how cheap they are.

Although I don't think the Mantic Elves are very good, the skeletons and zombies are very good and I think actually a bit better in terms of their proportions. Especially in the quantity zombie are usually present on the tabletop small differences don't matter that much. Although I agree if you don't like the style of something at all the price won't be an issue.

Here are some comparison pics Mantic vs. GW

From this forum, a post by Osymandias


Mantic on the left, GW on the right.

I already have a VC army but if I was starting a new one, at half the price and comparable style and quality there is no question which ones I would buy.

I was being a tad harsh. I don't like the Ghouls at all, but the zombies and skeletons aren't as terrible as the rest of their undead range. They're just not my style, and I find there's a far better level of detail on the GW skeletons.

Skeletons are fine, because skeletons are generally not as bulky as the fleshy coverings on normal infantry.

I'm using mantic elves as HE for WHFB - because I don't care for the GW HE (and I loathe ALL LOTR to the extent of NEVER using ANY of the game stuff for it, ever) and other elves by other companies also aren't cost-effective (and if I start KoW, then they swap over fine).

I am using Mantic dwarves as proxies of the GW ones.

Capt. Camping wrote:I am using Mantic dwarves as proxies of the GW ones.

Out of curiosity, how do they compare sizewise?