Raven Guard.

All HQ choices have dual Lightning Claw upgrades and Jump packs.
Assaults as Troop choice with dual Lightning Claw upgrades.
Cheaper Scouts and Bikes
Cheaper Drop pods

Dark Angels...

I mean of those who only have the Vanillna codex, which one of those deserves a codex the most.

*cough* Blood Ravens *cough*

As awesome as the Blood Ravens are (just check my name for one) they really aren't 'special' in the sense that they really don't need a unique codex, they are just Vanilla Marines with lots of Librarians.

White Scars?

Salamanders - heck they had one in 3rd ed which was fine. 2 specials in a tac squad and TH/SS termies that could take a heavy flamer! as well as I3 all round + the mantle!

All of them, so they can get out of my book and we can have another Codex: Ultramarines.

Seriously though...Imperial Fists. The things they could do with a very much siege oriented chapter...Iron warriors for loyalists, anyone?

None of them. Ever.

SOFDC wrote:Seriously though...Imperial Fists. The things they could do with a very much siege oriented chapter...Iron warriors for loyalists, anyone?

Imperial Fists are the second-most codex-adhering of the founding Chapters.

So it'd pretty much be Codex: Ultramarines with less speed, more firepower.

TO answer the question asked - Iron Hands, cyborg marines, mysterious ties to the Adeptus Mech, flying skull things, potential for cool vehicles and models.

But honestly, none of them. They need a vanilla book with a balanced traits system ala 4th or lots of WD lists ala 3rd edition.

Avatar 720 wrote:None of them. Ever.

This. For the love of [insert appropriate authority figure], this. Space Marines are meant to have far smaller numbers than the Guard, but for some reason they get far more codices. Guard tactics are just, if not more diverse than Marines. Why don't they get at least two codices? GW needs to concentrate more on Xenos and Chaos. And before you point out that Marines are the most played, maybe other armies would be played more if GW gave them as much attention instead of pointing all new players to the Ultramarines section.

SOFDC wrote:Iron warriors for loyalists, anyone?

OK, have an army with no benefits whatsoever.

Avatar 720 wrote:None of them. Ever.

The only correct answer.

Rules for playing different chapters? Fine.

Entirely separate codices? No way.

Honestly? None of them truly *need* their own book, especially before they started getting all sorts of crazy wacky stuff simply to continue to justify their existence (blood talons, TWC's, Wolf Claws, etc) and massive bloat of special rules/wargear leading to the creep we've got today.

GK's are the only exception to this, so they're pretty much the only ones that really *need* their own book, as opposed to a set of traits or a sublist.






Basically, the others boil down to the following without getting too much into the details that typically change from edition to edition:

Blood Angels: "Sometimes we're Fighter than normal Marines!". FoC changes and weapons swaps on dreads and predator turrets, Red Thirst rule, Death Company (basically super buffed tacs and/or assault marines)

Space Wolves: "We're Fighter than normal Marines Too!" or "We're Better Just Because!". Mostly a couple wargear loadout and stat changes to differentiate "-claw" units, more capable Tac equivalents than other marines just for kicks. Often basically CSM:Undivided with ATSKNF.

Black Templars: "We're Fighter than normal Marines Also!" Mix scouts with tac squads and prefer close combat wargear over shooting wargear. They like Chaplains alot. Some random vows that could be portrayed in any number ways, simple or complex.

Dark Angels: FoC swaps for Bikes and Terminators.


Nothing about any of these requires a separate book to portray accurately, especially given how much the details change every time they're redone.

none deserve a codex in my book, they are generally overpowered as it is

No Chapters deserve their own specific Codex, but they will get them based upon tradition.

If I had my way, we'd have "archetypes".

Traits and sublists just are boring. There's only so much you can put into a book without making huge swathes of it unusable to sections of the book's playerbase.

Iron hands.

You make the marine players and the players wanting the mechanicus codex happy.

Or, you could make the next marine codex have all the chapter special options, such as iron hands get x, salamanders get x, ect ect. Bonuses for running mono-army or none for mixed. Same deal with a CHAOS LEGION codex...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:But honestly, none of them. They need a vanilla book with a balanced traits system ala 4th or lots of WD lists ala 3rd edition.

Completely Agree. A few of the ones that currently have their own codex (Dark Angels, maybe Black Templars) could easily suffice with a good traits system with and a list of special characters.

I really wish GW went back to the trait system, it worked great for Guard, as well.

The trait system was crap for representing real Chapters with a healthy amount of established fluff, and quite frankly it gets remembered far too much with rose tinted glasses.

It's great for DIY Chapters, but for Dark Angels or Templars or Blood Angels--it's terrible.

It was a decent system, but I meant a well revised one. What would be better would be the old chapter approved pages in a separate book, but I think that the traits system was certainly good enough, and better than the current lack of any customization like that.

I think that the current full codexes are unnecessary: the old codex: armageddon rules and dark/blood angels/space wolves mini-codexes were plenty enough.

Honestly I think there are enough MEQ books already, allowing most players a decent “counts as” option at representing a chapter. Cluttering the release schedule with more IoM codices would be an incredibly stupid move IMO.

I agree with Kid_Kyoto regarding WD lists. The WD lists during third were especially great at representing chapters and I’d like to see them come back (with the rules collated into an annual book).

There's no revising it.

That Trait system was terrible to represent Chapters.

To represent different Companies it works fine.

Dark Angels, Templars, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels all need their own rules. I also argue for Iron Hands...but they seem to be less and less relevant to GW of late.

DA have the Dark/Ravenwing and other non-codex ideas (interogator chaplains etc)

BT lack devastators and mix their scouts in with their tactical marines, as well as having no librarians and requiring the Emperors Champ

Space Wolves deliberately do not adhere to the codex astartes at all, and as such should always have separate units/rules

Blood Angles...they have enough stuff to make them different, but the current codex does a poor job of accentuating that.

To be honest, Astartes do not need another codex, GW should be introducing a Mechanicus codex, and bring back some love to the Lost and the Damned.

I'd vote Salamanders or Carcharodons, but I don't think Marines need another Codex. I'd like more (as in a lot more) special characters, and I'd be fine. The general consensus in the thread about too many MEQ armies is probably right, but for the love of all things holy, can we not do a Mechanicus army?

SOFDC wrote:Iron warriors for loyalists, anyone?

And what rules do the Iron Warriors have to make them different?

That's right - none.


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Kanluwen wrote:No Chapters deserve their own specific Codex...

Except Space Wolves (and, to an extent, if you count them as a regular Chapter, the Grey Knights). I think the Wolves are unique as to be considered apart from other Marine Chapters.

Kanluwen wrote:If I had my way, we'd have "archetypes".

I mostly agree here. I'd prefer it if the Black Templars Codex wasn't actually a Black Templar Codex and was more along the line of a 'Crusading Marine Chapter' Codex, giving a 'template' for the various crusading Chapters out there. 'Bike armies' would be another archetype, as armies of bikes aren't unique to the White Scars or Ravenwing. 'Terminator armies' would be another, as the idea that the Deathwing is the only group that shows up in Terminator armour when no one else ever does is just silly. And so on.

Six separate codices is more than enough Space Marine codices, thank you very much. We don't need any more. Therefore, I wholeheartedly vote for none.

SOFDC wrote:All of them, so they can get out of my book and we can have another Codex: Ultramarines.

Seriously though...Imperial Fists. The things they could do with a very much siege oriented chapter...Iron warriors for loyalists, anyone?

You could try the SM Siege List in IA10.

Kanluwen wrote:No Chapters deserve their own specific Codex, but they will get them based upon tradition.

If I had my way, we'd have "archetypes".

Traits and sublists just are boring. There's only so much you can put into a book without making huge swathes of it unusable to sections of the book's playerbase.

+1

H.B.M.C. wrote:

SOFDC wrote:Iron warriors for loyalists, anyone?

And what rules do the Iron Warriors have to make them different?

That's right - none.

Ah yes, but they should.

No disagreement there.

Can we have rules for a Guard Regiment on roller blades with shuriken catapults and titans?

That would be awesome!

This goes out to a friend who lurks these forums...

Iron Hands, a first founding with little to no coverage, come on!

TO answer the question asked - Iron Hands, cyborg marines, mysterious ties to the Adeptus Mech, flying skull things, potential for cool vehicles and models.

But honestly, none of them. They need a vanilla book with a balanced traits system ala 4th or lots of WD lists ala 3rd edition.

^ this!

But if we can't have it that way the I would say Iron Hands for being enough different with the cybernetics bent to warrant a codex or a WD data sheet at least.

Legion of the Damned.

Raven Guard, of course.

There are enough already.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I mostly agree here. I'd prefer it if the Black Templars Codex wasn't actually a Black Templar Codex and was more along the line of a 'Crusading Marine Chapter' Codex, giving a 'template' for the various crusading Chapters out there.

It is. Counts As.

'Counts As' misses the point completely.

All of the chapters put in a single book would be nice.

Nah, it would be terrible. Legion rules are the way forward for those who want differentiation between Chapters.

H.B.M.C. wrote:'Counts As' misses the point completely.

I'm curious as to how that is?
I am just interested in the development of this idea because I don't quite understand it fully. Trying to get where you are coming from with this, and where you are going.

Jeez, don't we have enough already?
But if I had to choose, I'd honestly say my DIY chapter. Too long to explain in detail so I'm not going to bother.

Basically BT with more fire and heavy armour.

Blood_Raven wrote:Raven Guard.

All HQ choices have dual Lightning Claw upgrades and Jump packs.
Assaults as Troop choice with dual Lightning Claw upgrades.
Cheaper Scouts and Bikes
Cheaper Drop pods

This.
They have a different way of fighting that doesn't match any of the other Marines.
And they were one of the founding chapters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gaovinni wrote:All of the chapters put in a single book would be nice.

Yes, but it won't happen.
It'll be too big and require too much work. And if it does happen it'll be like 300 pages long and $150.

More marines. Yay.

Durza wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:None of them. Ever.

This. For the love of [insert appropriate authority figure], this. Space Marines are meant to have far smaller numbers than the Guard, but for some reason they get far more codices. Guard tactics are just, if not more diverse than Marines. Why don't they get at least two codices? GW needs to concentrate more on Xenos and Chaos. And before you point out that Marines are the most played, maybe other armies would be played more if GW gave them as much attention instead of pointing all new players to the Ultramarines section.

The difference is that each chapter has unique styles and unit types. The guard still falls into just a few categories.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yes, but it won't happen.
It'll be too big and require too much work. And if it does happen it'll be like 300 pages long and $150.

Hardly, at least half the stuff is identical between them, much of the rest mere weapon swaps or minor stat variations, and the army special rules could be done via a relatively simple HQ upgrade package (upgrade your Captain to a Wolf Lord for +X pts, army gains Y and loses Z) or the like. The biggest issue would be covering all the SC's. Easily coverable as a 200p book smaller than many books for equivalent games (e.g. Flames of War Eastern Front or the like). No way it'd need to be anywhere near triple digits in cost.

Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yes, but it won't happen.
It'll be too big and require too much work. And if it does happen it'll be like 300 pages long and $150.

Hardly, at least half the stuff is identical between them, much of the rest mere weapon swaps or minor stat variations, and the army special rules could be done via a relatively simple HQ upgrade package (upgrade your Captain to a Wolf Lord for +X pts, army gains Y and loses Z) or the like. The biggest issue would be covering all the SC's. Easily coverable as a 200p book smaller than many books for equivalent games (e.g. Flames of War Eastern Front or the like). No way it'd need to be anywhere near triple digits in cost.

But won't there be pages of fluff for each army, complete with special rules and chapter traits?

Chapter special rules are already encompassed on a single page in each book (right before the unit descriptions) which includes extraneous bits so could even be fit smaller, and many of them are simple USR's. The old Traits fit in what, 6 pages total?

Also, much of the fluff between these arme is shared, the first 2-6 pages of each one is the Horus heresy, and then there's the shared and minor variant units which can be described together rather easily, leaving plenty of room for several pages per major chapter (especially if they don't need to recopy the big timelines for each chatper and can just throw that sort of stuff online) and a couple pages of fluff for less renowned chapters.

Well, I'd say that first, all the non-Marine armies need a codex update for 5th (and Tyranids need another one as well).

Then, Xenos and non-loyalist SM armies should all get an expansion codex (Craftworlds, Speed Freaks, Catachans, Chaos Legions, unique Tomb Worlds, etc)

Next, all the forces that don't have a codex should get one (Lost and the Damned, Adeptus Mechanicus, Squats, Genestealer Cult, etc)

Then, once all of that is complete, we can talk about another SM codex. At that point, I'd vote Salamanders.

I always wonder why people want Salamanders to have their own codex...

They seem incredibly well represented by the Vanilla marine book, and Vulkan's special rules really exemplify their style of warfare.

In fact... most competitive Vanilla marine armies are salamanders armies and not Ultra Marine armies... So why would they be more deserving than any other chapter.

Anyway I agree. We have wayyyy to many special snowflake space marine chapters who have ridiculous naming conventions to try to justify them having their own book. Each one competing for the title of "most Eldar Avatar's Crumped!"

Space Marines are nice and all, and I have no problem with them being the flagship army. I just think that having >50% of the codex be loyalist space marines really hurts the game and removes a large amount of the potential depth.

I think the best solution would be one main Codex paired with some kind of GW-produced "Codex: Marine Chapters" adaption book (something like this), with sample chapter modifications included. To prevent manipulation of the rules, this probably wouldn't be allowed in tournaments (keeping the BTs, SWs, BAs and DAs, though, maybe?).

But anyway. CODEX: IRON HANDS FTQ.

Iron Hands! These guys need Terminator Sgts in all squads except JI obviously. And many, many Draeds!

Deadshot wrote:Iron Hands! These guys need Terminator Sgts in all squads except JI obviously. And many, many Draeds!

except their fluff very clearly states that these items, while highly venerated, are actually even rarer amongst the Iron Hands than other chapters.

Not any fluff I have read. I thought they would have easily crafted suits of TDA.

Already too many SPPEEIISSS MMAARIINNNZZZEESSSS!!!!

But if you really want something I would say the Salamaders earn one of their own, one very very flamy!!!!

IIRC reading the book Iron Hands (the last major piece of fluff I read about them) such things are actually rather rare.


EDIT: Equipment Shortfall (from 40k wiki)

The disastrous Drop Site Massacre on Istvaan V cost the Iron Hands many, if not most of their Dreadnoughts and suits of Terminator Armour. The limited number that remained became important relics to the Chapter, particularly the mighty Dreadnoughts who symbolise the epitome of the symbiosis of man and machine.

The various SM codeci were supposed to represent different organisational methods.
So basically only Vanilla, BT and SW make sense if you follow that theory...

Vaktathi wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Iron Hands! These guys need Terminator Sgts in all squads except JI obviously. And many, many Draeds!

except their fluff very clearly states that these items, while highly venerated, are actually even rarer amongst the Iron Hands than other chapters.

While this is correct, it is stated that they rever them more than any other chapter and so they often include them as sargeants to boost morale. It is however stated that they have many fewer than other chapters.

The Iron Hands revere the limited number of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts that they possess, and treat them with the utmost respect and devotion. Entire squads of Terminators are rare, however, for the inspiration they create amongst the ranks is better employed when they act as leaders of individual squads. Sergeants will often wear Terminator Armor that is rumored to be physically bonded to them, and it is not uncommon for battle forces to be led by Dreadnoughts. The inspiration that their presence causes among the Iron Hands proves to be of more benefit when acting within these roles.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440176a&categoryId=400028§ion=&aId=2500028

Blood_Raven wrote:As awesome as the Blood Ravens are (just check my name for one) they really aren't 'special' in the sense that they really don't need a unique codex, they are just Vanilla Marines with lots of Librarians.

I believe their should only be one space marine codex regardless...they are all just "space marines"

bombboy1252 wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:As awesome as the Blood Ravens are (just check my name for one) they really aren't 'special' in the sense that they really don't need a unique codex, they are just Vanilla Marines with lots of Librarians.

I believe their should only be one space marine codex regardless...they are all just "space marines"

Nah. My dream is for GW to finalize a core ruleset (hopefully 6th edition). Then, they can release balanced codexes that never need updating.

Imagine a codex for each and every SM founding chapter, one for each craftworld, one for each hive fleet, one for each clan, etc.


A man can dream...

Although I still think we have more than enough codices as it is, if one chapter were to get their own codex that doesn't already have one, it should be Iron Hands IMO.

They don't adhere to the Codex, have no Chapter Masters, and you can get some supar kewl Mechanicus goodies in it as well.

Also, Terminator Sarges? Manly.

Imperial Fists because they use loads of siege weapons and they are stuck with the basic space marine weapons.

Lascannons, Meltaguns/MM, melta bombs, chainfists, TH, Vindicators Ironclads for offense.

Predators, Devs, TFC, Whirlwind, Tarantula sentries for defense.

black templar wrote:Imperial Fists because they use loads of siege weapons and they are stuck with the basic space marine weapons.

They're highly Codex and don't use any weapons that other SM's don't, they just prefer to routinely field more heavy weapons and vindi's where other chapters may opt for other equipment. They aren't the siege legion they once were, they're a very codex chapter, probably the most codex outside the Ultramarines and their immediate 2nd founding chapters.

black templar wrote:Imperial Fists because they use loads of siege weapons and they are stuck with the basic space marine weapons.

Imperial Fists are second only to the Ultramarines for adhering to the Codex Astartes.

Hypothectically speaking the ultramarines since they wrote the codex which almost all marine chapters use.

Guess I would like to see one of the ones who have nothing but a name and a paint scheme cause it allows something new, there are no expectations, no it should be ______, it's a blank slate for creative to do what they want.

Grakmar wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:As awesome as the Blood Ravens are (just check my name for one) they really aren't 'special' in the sense that they really don't need a unique codex, they are just Vanilla Marines with lots of Librarians.

I believe their should only be one space marine codex regardless...they are all just "space marines"

Nah. My dream is for GW to finalize a core ruleset (hopefully 6th edition). Then, they can release balanced codexes that never need updating.

Imagine a codex for each and every SM founding chapter, one for each craftworld, one for each hive fleet, one for each clan, etc.


A man can dream...

*sniff* *sniff*

that dream is.....it's beautiful...

Coolyo294 wrote:

black templar wrote:Imperial Fists because they use loads of siege weapons and they are stuck with the basic space marine weapons.

Imperial Fists are second only to the Ultramarines for adhering to the Codex Astartes.

This say they are look

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists#.TpX8qpu6V9E

None.

I think they could all be done with special HQs and simple annexs in one book. But we know that won't happen...sadly.

black templar wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

black templar wrote:Imperial Fists because they use loads of siege weapons and they are stuck with the basic space marine weapons.

Imperial Fists are second only to the Ultramarines for adhering to the Codex Astartes.

This say they are look

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists#.TpX8qpu6V9E

Direct from the article

The Chapter has since assumed a place alongside the Ultramarines as exemplars of the Codex

They're still very siege oriented, but they aren't organized or equipped significantly differently than the majority of other chapters.

Grakmar wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Blood_Raven wrote:As awesome as the Blood Ravens are (just check my name for one) they really aren't 'special' in the sense that they really don't need a unique codex, they are just Vanilla Marines with lots of Librarians.

I believe their should only be one space marine codex regardless...they are all just "space marines"

Nah. My dream is for GW to finalize a core ruleset (hopefully 6th edition). Then, they can release balanced codexes that never need updating.

Imagine a codex for each and every SM founding chapter, one for each craftworld, one for each hive fleet, one for each clan, etc.


A man can dream...

QFT.
I would like this. I really would.
It will add a hell lot more variety to the current selection of armies.

Word bearers, World Eaters, 1k Sons, Death Guard.......

Imperial Fists.

More heavy weapons.

Devastators as trooops.

Increased WS on all models due to duelling.

Special Upgrade that causes feel no pain (due to recent stop at the pain glove).

Not able to leave combat until they win or die.

Or Raven Guard.

Or Iron Hands-
Iron Fathers
Bionic upgrade on all troops
More Vehicles/TF cannons.

Salamanders, and i agree with the guy who said Guard need more dexes.

Skal098 wrote:Salamanders, and i agree with the guy who said Guard need more dexes.

Oh hell yeah! A salamander dex would be awesome. Just imagine it - master crafted weapons everywhere, flamers for free without any limit.
And the Marines will have bits of dead dinosaur on them.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Skal098 wrote:Salamanders, and i agree with the guy who said Guard need more dexes.

Oh hell yeah! A salamander dex would be awesome. Just imagine it - master crafted weapons everywhere, flamers for free without any limit.
And the Marines will have bits of dead dinosaur on them.

And for a price increases, tac marines could have Artificer armour.

Beast.

im2randomghgh wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Skal098 wrote:Salamanders, and i agree with the guy who said Guard need more dexes.

Oh hell yeah! A salamander dex would be awesome. Just imagine it - master crafted weapons everywhere, flamers for free without any limit.
And the Marines will have bits of dead dinosaur on them.

And for a price increases, tac marines could have Artificer armour.

Beast.

Hmmm I wouldn't say Tac marines. Otherwise we'll have people screaming CHEESE at the tops of their lungs all over again. As elites though it should be acceptable.

Iron Hands rule


Tacs, Devs, Vets without JP, +25pts.

Any squad may upgrade their Sgt with TDA

Why do so many people seem to think that every chapter needs its own codex, when it's entirely possible to just set it up like the single page Legions got in 3rd ed Chaos, and have rules for your own chapter as well? Codices do not a cool chapter make.

None of them. The day the chaos marines or eldar craftworlds get their own codex is the day that ill approve of any marine codexs.
Except the space wolves. I like them.

Alpha Legion are the only chaos legion with tactics unusual enough to warrant their own codex. But, they sure deserve one more than certain Imperial chapters...

Deathly Angel wrote:To be honest, Astartes do not need another codex, GW should be introducing a Mechanicus codex, and bring back some love to the Lost and the Damned.

Aaaaaaaand SWOOSH! Deathly Angel FTW!

Have to agree with the "no new codex" crowd. So many Marine Chapters are as near-identical to another that any gear/stat differences can be illustrated in a Chapter-specific page within a single, overarching "Loyalist Space Marines Codex" book.

It's like... ok, you have a section on "Vanilla Marines" that gives stats, costs and war-gear prices for each kind of basic Marine. Tac, Dev, Assault, whatever. Then, in each Chapter-specific chapter, you add the extra notes.

Example: "The Iron Hands makes use of Bionic and Augmetics more than any other Chapter. To reflect this, you can upgrade any Marine with Bionic Wargear, adding +1S and +1T, for 5 points." You don't need a whole separate book for that.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Skal098 wrote:Salamanders, and i agree with the guy who said Guard need more dexes.

Oh hell yeah! A salamander dex would be awesome. Just imagine it - master crafted weapons everywhere, flamers for free without any limit.
And the Marines will have bits of dead dinosaur on them.

And for a price increases, tac marines could have Artificer armour.

Beast.

Hmmm I wouldn't say Tac marines. Otherwise we'll have people screaming CHEESE at the tops of their lungs all over again. As elites though it should be acceptable.

Let me rephrase that: for a STEEP price increase.

Answer is none of them, they do not deviate enough from the Codex Astartes to warrant it. Plus they are not one of the big now 5. Much as it hurts me to say this, the take an HQ to change your army kinda works for now.
But given my stubborn hatred of special characters I think a nice balance in tweaking a codex/codex enough chapters list would be a list of "Command model abilities". One HQ takes one of these so you have a default one for UM and Imperial Fists types as they're pretty much codex to the max!! Next another which allows bikers as troops, another which allows x, another which allows y and so on.
Set lists mean less abuse than the traits allowed in 4th ed (What I get imba stuff at the cost of not using stuff I wasn't going to? hell yes!) and lets some deviation from the norm be achieved.
Obviously no system is fool proof however.

SM's have enough books. Honestly though as greedy as it sounds I really wish they would make one for the Ravenguard. Never gonna happen, but it would be awesome!

There are other armies out there that need an update more than there needs to be another frakin SM dex

I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Well that's kinda the point. If they were codex astartes they'd follow the SM dex

im2randomghgh wrote:Imperial Fists.

More heavy weapons.

Devastators as trooops.

Increased WS on all models due to duelling.

Special Upgrade that causes feel no pain (due to recent stop at the pain glove).

Who on earth would IF's be shootier, fightier, and hardier than all other marines? If you want a gunline that bad, play Guard or Tau. The IF's are *very* codex, meaning they have ~100 Devastators, for the entire chapter, of which 40 have heavy weapons. Not really something to be made Troops. Furthermore, you can make just about any good reason for other chapters to have higher WS, why would the IF's have a higher WS than Black Templars/Blood Angels/Raven Guard/etc? It makes little sense for such a codex-adherent chapter to have such incredible bonuses. FNP on everything? Not really something the game needs, and tons of other chapters have similar rituals and whatnot that could easily justify that but don't. That sort of thing is already generally reflected in being T4 and high Ld with ATSKNF.

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Ion Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Skal098 wrote:Salamanders, and i agree with the guy who said Guard need more dexes.

Oh hell yeah! A salamander dex would be awesome. Just imagine it - master crafted weapons everywhere, flamers for free without any limit.
And the Marines will have bits of dead dinosaur on them.

And for a price increases, tac marines could have Artificer armour.

Beast.

Hmmm I wouldn't say Tac marines. Otherwise we'll have people screaming CHEESE at the tops of their lungs all over again. As elites though it should be acceptable.

Let me rephrase that: for a STEEP price increase.

Vulkan, Chapter Tactics Version 2


In an army including Vulkan, all Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Flamestorm Cannons, Inferno Cannons( basically all flame weapons) and all melrta weapons are twinlinked, and all CCW are MC. Any model may be upgraded with artificer armour for +5pts.

Can we have an add on book that allows for extra special characters or units for different chapters? Swaps around the FOC and any other changes needed? Just a thought. Bit like codex Armaggedon did for Templars and Salamanders.

Well I reckon they will sneak blood ravens with them been popular in the Dow games.
Is like crimson fists myself. Bring back Cortez

H.B.M.C. wrote:'Counts As' misses the point completely.

How?

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Why?

GK's arer the only chapter who are different and unique enough for thier own codex, other chapters could be add-ons in the vanilla codex, rather than having a seperate book

if GW insisted on creating another chapter-specific codex, then salamanders would be my choice, as they have a fairamount of uniqueness

perks would still be better though

Honestly, i think there should be NO MORE marine armies. There's already too many.

But, if they HAD to, i'd go Blood Ravens or or Iron Hands.

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Alpha...Legion.

Void__Dragon wrote:Although I still think we have more than enough codices as it is, if one chapter were to get their own codex that doesn't already have one, it should be Iron Hands IMO.

They don't adhere to the Codex, have no Chapter Masters, and you can get some supar kewl Mechanicus goodies in it as well.

Also, Terminator Sarges? Manly.

Iron Hands have been retconned. There is a quote from their Chapter Master in Codex: Space Marines. They are codex. And Roboute Guilliman is their spiritual liege.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Although I still think we have more than enough codices as it is, if one chapter were to get their own codex that doesn't already have one, it should be Iron Hands IMO.

They don't adhere to the Codex, have no Chapter Masters, and you can get some supar kewl Mechanicus goodies in it as well.

Also, Terminator Sarges? Manly.

Iron Hands have been retconned. There is a quote from their Chapter Master in Codex: Space Marines. They are codex. And Roboute Guilliman is their spiritual liege.

Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Probably the Iron Hands or Crimson fists, though I think the ravenguard would be a neat codex..

iproxtaco wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Although I still think we have more than enough codices as it is, if one chapter were to get their own codex that doesn't already have one, it should be Iron Hands IMO.

They don't adhere to the Codex, have no Chapter Masters, and you can get some supar kewl Mechanicus goodies in it as well.

Also, Terminator Sarges? Manly.

Iron Hands have been retconned. There is a quote from their Chapter Master in Codex: Space Marines. They are codex. And Roboute Guilliman is their spiritual liege.

Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Don't look at me. I'm not the one who wrote Codex: Space Marines.

iproxtaco wrote:Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Doobie? A troll? You ain't been here long enough to know much about him, so don't accuse him of trolling.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Doobie? A troll? You ain't been here long enough to know much about him, so don't accuse him of trolling.

You bettar watch yor step round' these purts, boya, lest you run inti truble.
What's this? The Wild West? Is he the dangerous crime-lord that's slightly insane but has the town of Ceeyote in a grip of fear but whose control is slipping preferably played by Jack Nicholas, and you're the gnarled cowboy whose seen it all done it all and is offering friendly advice because he holds a long-term grudge preferably played by Morgan Freeman? If that's not an attempt to troll I better catch the next wagon outa' hur.

iproxtaco wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Doobie? A troll? You ain't been here long enough to know much about him, so don't accuse him of trolling.

You bettar watch yor step round' these purts, boya, lest you run inti truble.
What's this? The Wild West? Is he the dangerous crime-lord that's slightly insane but has the town of Ceeyote in a grip of fear but whose control is slipping preferably played by Jack Nicholas, and you're the gnarled cowboy whose seen it all done it all and is offering friendly advice because he holds a long-term grudge preferably played by Morgan Freeman? If that's not an attempt to troll I better catch the next wagon outa' hur.

Notice how you focused your entire reply solely upon the word "ain't"?

iproxtaco wrote:What's this? The Wild West? Is he the dangerous crime-lord that's slightly insane but has the town of Ceeyote in a grip of fear but whose control is slipping preferably played by Jack Nicholas, and you're the gnarled cowboy whose seen it all done it all and is offering friendly advice because he holds a long-term grudge preferably played by Morgan Freeman? If that's not an attempt to troll I better catch the next wagon outa' hur.

Yes.

Heres an idea:

Codex Space Marines - Vanilla Marines

Codex Chaos Space Marines - Renegades, cultists & l&td

Codex Chaos Legions - Legion specific lists and rules

Codex Loyal Legions - BA, SW, DA, WS etc

Vaktathi wrote:Honestly? None of them truly *need* their own book, especially before they started getting all sorts of crazy wacky stuff simply to continue to justify their existence (blood talons, TWC's, Wolf Claws, etc) and massive bloat of special rules/wargear leading to the creep we've got today.

GK's are the only exception to this, so they're pretty much the only ones that really *need* their own book, as opposed to a set of traits or a sublist.

Heartily agree. It is the stupid crazy special rules that drive these books and also make me more and more annoyed with the game as things progress through the years. Grey Knights are a very distinct and different type of force to regular space marines. They start as regular marines, but are wholly different in the way they perform in battles and the types of threats they are designed to deal with.

I think the Space Marine codex version a couple back that allowed you to pick a focus and even disadvantages for your chapter which then affected where certain units fit in on the force organization chart was a really decent concept. You could build *any* of the chapters with special codex books using that book without difficulty. The only thing you couldn't do is get a bunch of super duper special rules that made blood angels (or whatever chapter) LEET... Heck if you wanted to take it a step further you could do something like the chaos plague, berserk, noise and tzeetch marines to give a specific chapter access to its supposed identifying unit.

A lot of people play space marines because they get all the love. While forces like Necrons, Eldar and Tau sit on crazy old codex books and forces like the Sisters get saddled with a WD codex, do we really need to see yet another Space Marine Chapter codex??

Skriker

somecallmeJack wrote:Heres an idea:

Codex Space Marines - Vanilla Marines

Codex Chaos Space Marines - Renegades, cultists & l&td

Codex Chaos Legions - Legion specific lists and rules

Codex Loyal Legions - BA, SW, DA, WS etc

If only. Though it'd be Codex: Founding Chapters or something for Loyal Legions.

Durza wrote:

somecallmeJack wrote:Heres an idea:

Codex Space Marines - Vanilla Marines

Codex Chaos Space Marines - Renegades, cultists & l&td

Codex Chaos Legions - Legion specific lists and rules

Codex Loyal Legions - BA, SW, DA, WS etc

If only. Though it'd be Codex: Founding Chapters or something for Loyal Legions.

Well, yeah. True. I suppose you'd need to put black templars in there so it couldn't be 'legions'.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Doobie? A troll? You ain't been here long enough to know much about him, so don't accuse him of trolling.

You bettar watch yor step round' these purts, boya, lest you run inti truble.
What's this? The Wild West? Is he the dangerous crime-lord that's slightly insane but has the town of Ceeyote in a grip of fear but whose control is slipping preferably played by Jack Nicholas, and you're the gnarled cowboy whose seen it all done it all and is offering friendly advice because he holds a long-term grudge preferably played by Morgan Freeman? If that's not an attempt to troll I better catch the next wagon outa' hur.

Notice how you focused your entire reply solely upon the word "ain't"?

No, I do not.

Weeel, I bettur just start causin' some trouble round' these parts, shake up the natural order of thangs.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Doobie? A troll? You ain't been here long enough to know much about him, so don't accuse him of trolling.

You bettar watch yor step round' these purts, boya, lest you run inti truble.
What's this? The Wild West? Is he the dangerous crime-lord that's slightly insane but has the town of Ceeyote in a grip of fear but whose control is slipping preferably played by Jack Nicholas, and you're the gnarled cowboy whose seen it all done it all and is offering friendly advice because he holds a long-term grudge preferably played by Morgan Freeman? If that's not an attempt to troll I better catch the next wagon outa' hur.

Notice how you focused your entire reply solely upon the word "ain't"?

No, I do not.

Weeel, I bettur just start causin' some trouble round' these parts, shake up the natural order of thangs.

Everyone could act mature here.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:What's this? The Wild West? Is he the dangerous crime-lord that's slightly insane but has the town of Ceeyote in a grip of fear but whose control is slipping preferably played by Jack Nicholas, and you're the gnarled cowboy whose seen it all done it all and is offering friendly advice because he holds a long-term grudge preferably played by Morgan Freeman? If that's not an attempt to troll I better catch the next wagon outa' hur.

Yes.

Does that make me the young inexperienced newcomer set to cause trouble when he doesn't need it and then has to flee for his life after he messes with the local crime-lord, but is aided by gnarled cowboy who eventually dies in a shoot-out after helping young inexperienced newcomer in a training montage where they work on their horse riding and pistol skills? Who wants to be the beautiful Bar-owner's daughter who gets caught up in it all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Do you ever post anything that isn't an attempt to troll people?

Doobie? A troll? You ain't been here long enough to know much about him, so don't accuse him of trolling.

You bettar watch yor step round' these purts, boya, lest you run inti truble.
What's this? The Wild West? Is he the dangerous crime-lord that's slightly insane but has the town of Ceeyote in a grip of fear but whose control is slipping preferably played by Jack Nicholas, and you're the gnarled cowboy whose seen it all done it all and is offering friendly advice because he holds a long-term grudge preferably played by Morgan Freeman? If that's not an attempt to troll I better catch the next wagon outa' hur.

Notice how you focused your entire reply solely upon the word "ain't"?

No, I do not.

Weeel, I bettur just start causin' some trouble round' these parts, shake up the natural order of thangs.

Everyone could act mature here.

Could, being the important word here. You only live once, and this is the Wild West, son! *fires revolver into air.

Just throwing out that there is law back east. So dont bring any of your trouble that way.

Probably salamanders. I see tons of army lists on here so I figure they must be a pretty popular vanilla chapter.

It is not that they are popular to start with. It spawns from Vulkan's awesome rules, and many people build a Salamander list/army to match.

Deadshot wrote:It is not that they are popular to start with. It spawns from Vulkan's awesome rules, and many people build a Salamander list/army to match.

QFT

Vulkan is competitive, and that is why you see Ultramanders of doom, of people trying to incorporate Vulkan into their own chapter, he makes your army significantly stronger

Deadshot wrote:It is not that they are popular to start with. It spawns from Vulkan's awesome rules, and many people build a Salamander list/army to match.

Well then I guess it's a good thing they don't hand out codices to chapters just because they became popular due to their powerful special rules in Codex: Armageddon Space Marines...

somecallmeJack wrote:Heres an idea:

Codex Space Marines - Vanilla Marines

Codex Chaos Space Marines - Renegades, cultists & l&td

Codex Chaos Legions - Legion specific lists and rules

Codex Loyal Legions - BA, SW, DA, WS etc

Probably the most sensible post so far this thread.

Deadshot wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Ion Hands.

No. Most Notably, Black Templars.
For chapters that have competely different things.
Iron hands do not stray the from the codex at all.
We are talking about loyalist chapters not traitor btw.

Asherian Command wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Ion Hands.

No. Most Notably, Black Templars.
For chapters that have competely different things.
Iron hands do not stray the from the codex at all.
We are talking about loyalist chapters not traitor btw.

I personally believe the space wolves would be the most notable exception.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Ion Hands.

No. Most Notably, Black Templars.
For chapters that have competely different things.
Iron hands do not stray the from the codex at all.
We are talking about loyalist chapters not traitor btw.

I personally believe the space wolves would be the most notable exception.

The space wolves are nothing like the Black Templars. The Space wolves really only get their codex because i don't want fanboys at my door with a fake spear of russ and an attempted murder.

So, I guess Black Templars got their own codex because people bashed down Nottingham with the Templar Cross, DA because they all sat outside in robes and prayed, and BA because their nipples were so many in number, that they blocked out the sun?

Asherian Command wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I want a codex for chapters that don't follow the codex astrates. that would be awesome.

Ion Hands.

No. Most Notably, Black Templars.
For chapters that have competely different things.
Iron hands do not stray the from the codex at all.
We are talking about loyalist chapters not traitor btw.

I personally believe the space wolves would be the most notable exception.

The space wolves are nothing like the Black Templars. The Space wolves really only get their codex because i don't want fanboys at my door with a fake spear of russ and an attempted murder.

Except their are more codex-deviant than the Black Templars. They RIDE WOLVES INTO BATTLE. They TURN INTO WOLVES. They actually use DIFFERENT WEAPONS. They are many times more codex deviant than the templars.

Chowderhead wrote:So, I guess Black Templars got their own codex because people bashed down Nottingham with the Templar Cross...

Actually, Black Templars got their own codex because Codex: Armageddon gave them hidden powerfists in 3rd edition when everyone else still had targetable vet srgs.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:So, I guess Black Templars got their own codex because people bashed down Nottingham with the Templar Cross...

Actually, Black Templars got their own codex because Codex: Armageddon gave them hidden powerfists in 3rd edition when everyone else still had targetable vet srgs.

LYSANDER!!!

So, the major differences between the Vanilla Codex and DAs/BTs are...?

I can personally see the Iron Hands being structured as differently as the SpezhWoolvs.

I like the way the vanilla codex works. Some special characters could have the ability to change some equipment on certain squads to make them more chapter spesific for example. That might make it possible to put all the marines in one book... except for the grey knights. They can and should keep their own book.

gaovinni wrote:I like the way the vanilla codex works. Some special characters could have the ability to change some equipment on certain squads to make them more chapter spesific for example. That might make it possible to put all the marines in one book... except for the Daemon Hunters. They can and should keep their own book.

Fixed. It was heresy before.

im2randomghgh wrote:

gaovinni wrote:I like the way the vanilla codex works. Some special characters could have the ability to change some equipment on certain squads to make them more chapter spesific for example. That might make it possible to put all the marines in one book... except for the Daemon Hunters. They can and should keep their own book.

Fixed. It was heresy before.

Ah. Thank you.

Deadshot wrote:It is not that they are popular to start with. It spawns from Vulkan's awesome rules, and many people build a Salamander list/army to match.

Have to agree here. Could count on one hand the number of local Salamanders forces I had seen in the previous 15 years before the latest SM codex came out. Now with those Vulkan special rules for flamers and meltas they are every where.

Skriker

I would have to say a codex that accuratly describes the Alpha Legion or the Sould Drinkers. I am under the impression that both these chapters are still loyal to the emperor but are slightly chaos tainted, the alpha legion more than the soul drinkers.

UNREALPwnage wrote:I would have to say a codex that accuratly describes the Alpha Legion or the Sould Drinkers. I am under the impression that both these chapters are still loyal to the emperor but are slightly chaos tainted, the alpha legion more than the soul drinkers.

But if they made an Alpha Legion book (which they should), they couldn't call it Codex. The Alphas didn't like them.

Traits.

Crusader like adjustes the army to be BT like.
Clan adjusts it to be IH, Salamanders like
Emo vampire adjusts to BA, Ravenguard like
Closetemo for DA like
Codex for UM, IF, etc

Gets rid of special character stigma, give each triat a set advatages and flaws set in stone and not abusable. Oh trait names are WiP

Traits were and still are terrible for representing Chapters. They're fine for representing Companies or "Mary Sue" forces--but by their very nature they will not necessarily be expansive enough to showcase those forces which we have descriptions of. Heck, if you do it right you could maybe give generic characters a 'Trait' system which lets them influence how their army list is built with a trade-off list.

Characters are a good way to add flavor, given that characters are characters for a reason--namely that they have done something 'heroic'. They have a set history, they have set ways of operating, etc.

Ideally, if Games Workshop were calling me and saying "Hey Kan, make a good way for us to stop making Chapter Codices"...I'd reply with "Okay, but it'll still be more than one book and I want to do the same thing with Chaos."

Why would I say that?

Because cramming a practically innumerable setup for Chapters into one book is ridiculous.

My 'Ideal Setup' is this:
Book I: "Angels of Death". This will be your "Codex" Chapters. Your Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines and their Successors, etc. Two or three "major" characters for each of the Chapters outlined within, with a small "Chapter" section of unique weapons and/or units or formations associated with those characters.

Book II: "Savage Faith". This will be your "non-Codex" Chapters which focus mostly on close combat. Your Blood Angels and their Successors, the Space Wolves, and the Black Templars. Again, follow the setup of the above.

Book III: "Angels of Wrath". This will be your "Close to but Not Quite" Codex Chapters. Iron Hands,White Scars, and both the Raven Guard and Dark Angels along with their Successors. Same setup in regards to characters, formations, etc.

I think Chaos would end up with four books in my way of thinking, but I've not done too much brainstorming on them...yet.

Where are the fething Salamanders? Or Angry marines?

Why would anyone want Angry Marines?

Anyways. Salamanders can fall into either AoW or AoD, imo.

I notice you left out the Dark Angels in your examples Kan.

I did. The annoying thing is I'd originally written them right after "Raven Guard+Dark Angels and their Successors".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's fixed now.

Sorry, I thought it was an intentional omission. My mistake. The only problem I have with your idea is the Savage Faith Codex.

Space Wolves - Non-Codex Chapter with unique units.
Black Templars - Non-Codex Chapter with a unique structure, if not unique units (they still have bikes, Assault Squads, etc.).
Blood Angels - Codex Chapter with three different units (DC, Sang Priests & Sang Guard).

I just don't think a 'Chaper section' is enough to cover the BT's and the Woofs, and I don't think the BA's are different enough from a Codex Chapter to warrant being separate from the rest. They'd fit better in the third Codex.

I agree a bit that the Blood Angels are not different enough from a Codex Chapter to warrant their own book...but at the same time, I think that if the Blood Angels(and their Successors like the Flesh Tearers and Soul Drinkers) were to be in Angels of Wrath--the book would be kinda cramped.

With having the Blood Angels in "Savage Faith", you've got a kind of "Generic Close Combat Chapter" if that makes sense. Taking specific traits on your generic characters(or one of the special characters within the Blood Angels and their Successor's list for that matter) allows you to field either side of the Sons of Sanguinius.

The calm, collected warrior-poets...or the savage and bloodthirsty warriors who know their death is upon them.

So you’d still link army types to Special Characters? Or characters in general? Why can't an army just be an army. Why must everything stem from the HQ choice?

It doesn't have to. Legion rules godammit! Your HQ takes the rule, it unlocks whatever the Character would. Some Special Characters and HQ's come with the rule already, some HQ's can't take it. You can apply whatever constraints or extras you want. Yeah, its still connected with the HQ, but it's a lot more open than "you have to take named Character X to play Legion Y".

H.B.M.C. wrote:So you’d still link army types to Special Characters? Or characters in general? Why can't an army just be an army. Why must everything stem from the HQ choice?

Not entirely to Special Characters, if that makes sense.

Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

To use an example: Belial, Master of the Deathwing, and a high-ranking member of the Dark Angels.
We all know him, we love him, and we know how he operates.

If you have Belial leading your force, your Terminator squads are Troops choices and gain access to a specific piece of wargear associated with him within the Wargear slot. In my case, I imagine him as leading the most veteran members of the Deathwing, those who would be leading Companies into battle if they'd not decided to stay in the Deathwing under his command. No Storm Bolters and Powerfists for these lads, they bear weapons with a lineage stretching back centuries if not longer. Relic Powerswords and Master Crafted Combi-Weapons
as their 'standard' wargear. This does not come cheaply, however. Belial's forces are predicated upon striking hard and striking at the right moment. You need to have a Teleport Homer upon the field, whether it be on a vehicle or purchased by itself as a piece that 'counts as' Troops and is deployed upon the field but cannot be directly targeted.

That does not mean though that "In order to field Terminators as Troops, you need to pay for Belial".
You can take a generic Captain or other HQ and Honor Guard in Terminator Armor and for something like 30 points can opt to take Terminators as Troops.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:So you’d still link army types to Special Characters? Or characters in general? Why can't an army just be an army. Why must everything stem from the HQ choice?

Not entirely to Special Characters, if that makes sense.

Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

To use an example: Belial, Master of the Deathwing, and a high-ranking member of the Dark Angels.
We all know him, we love him, and we know how he operates.

If you have Belial leading your force, your Terminator squads are Troops choices and gain access to a specific piece of wargear associated with him within the Wargear slot. In my case, I imagine him as leading the most veteran members of the Deathwing, those who would be leading Companies into battle if they'd not decided to stay in the Deathwing under his command. No Storm Bolters and Powerfists for these lads, they bear weapons with a lineage stretching back centuries if not longer. Relic Powerswords and Master Crafted Combi-Weapons
as their 'standard' wargear. This does not come cheaply, however. Belial's forces are predicated upon striking hard and striking at the right moment. You need to have a Teleport Homer upon the field, whether it be on a vehicle or purchased by itself as a piece that 'counts as' Troops and is deployed upon the field but cannot be directly targeted.

That does not mean though that "In order to field Terminators as Troops, you need to pay for Belial".
You can take a generic Captain or other HQ and Honor Guard in Terminator Armor and for something like 30 points can opt to take Terminators as Troops.

I love the idea, DIY would definitely get a boost out of that. How easily would it be to balance those different "Legion" rules? And, would it become convoluted trying to sort all of them out?

Kanluwen wrote:Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

Special character ‘signature’ armies. Now that idea I like. It’s much better to take Vulkan to play his signature army than having to take Vulkan in order to play Sallies. So it’s a bit like how Farsight had his special bodyguard, only expanded to cover the entire army.

You could apply that almost anywhere, eg. Anyone can play a hot-blooded Farsight Enclave Tau army, but Farsight himself has a special elite Cadre of troops that builds on the standard Farsight Enclave list. Captain Sicarius has his special formation (the one they sold as a big no-discount-included army deal a while back), and so on.

What exactly is a signature Vulkan army? And how would it be different from a Sallies army?

They should just divorce the army-wide special rules from the special character. Just allow a bunch of different options for Combat Tactics (e.g. the standard Ultramarine type we have now, the White Scars hit & run type, a Raven Guard deep striking type, etc.). Tie them to the HQ - the list you choose from depends on which HQs you take (e.g. chapter master, chaplain, librarian etc.). They don't even have to be explicit about which version of Combat Tactics goes with which chapter - simply include some chapter-specific special characters which come with specific choices to give players a "hint".

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Under my "vision", special characters would have kind of a "signature" formation that they're famed for and receive a bonus for.

Special character ‘signature’ armies. Now that idea I like. It’s much better to take Vulkan to play his signature army than having to take Vulkan in order to play Sallies. So it’s a bit like how Farsight had his special bodyguard, only expanded to cover the entire army.

You could apply that almost anywhere, eg. Anyone can play a hot-blooded Farsight Enclave Tau army, but Farsight himself has a special elite Cadre of troops that builds on the standard Farsight Enclave list. Captain Sicarius has his special formation (the one they sold as a big no-discount-included army deal a while back), and so on.

Yeah, that's kind of how I've been thinking about it.

Salamanders are a Chapter that's close to the Codex(their only real trait was that they had really finely crafted weapons, a knack for using flame and melta weaponry, and what amounted to Slow and Purposeful), but with Vulkan(their Master of the Forge) it becomes a radically different army.

What would I like to see? A short supplement book for Space Marines containing rules for certain chapters (for example you could buy x ability for xx points, but if you do you can't use x unit, or you lose combat tactics). It could also contain new units for certain chapters, and contain fluff for these chapters.

The next space marine chapter to get a codex should be all of Chaos. /thread.

White Consuls

Salamanders.

DarthDiggler wrote:White Consuls

Normal Codex Chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:Traits were and still are terrible for representing Chapters. They're fine for representing Companies or "Mary Sue" forces--but by their very nature they will not necessarily be expansive enough to showcase those forces which we have descriptions of. Heck, if you do it right you could maybe give generic characters a 'Trait' system which lets them influence how their army list is built with a trade-off list.

Characters are a good way to add flavor, given that characters are characters for a reason--namely that they have done something 'heroic'. They have a set history, they have set ways of operating, etc.

Ideally, if Games Workshop were calling me and saying "Hey Kan, make a good way for us to stop making Chapter Codices"...I'd reply with "Okay, but it'll still be more than one book and I want to do the same thing with Chaos."

Why would I say that?

Because cramming a practically innumerable setup for Chapters into one book is ridiculous.

My 'Ideal Setup' is this:
Book I: "Angels of Death". This will be your "Codex" Chapters. Your Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines and their Successors, etc. Two or three "major" characters for each of the Chapters outlined within, with a small "Chapter" section of unique weapons and/or units or formations associated with those characters.

Book II: "Savage Faith". This will be your "non-Codex" Chapters which focus mostly on close combat. Your Blood Angels and their Successors, the Space Wolves, and the Black Templars. Again, follow the setup of the above.

Book III: "Angels of Wrath". This will be your "Close to but Not Quite" Codex Chapters. Iron Hands,White Scars, and both the Raven Guard and Dark Angels along with their Successors. Same setup in regards to characters, formations, etc.

I think Chaos would end up with four books in my way of thinking, but I've not done too much brainstorming on them...yet.

That...makes more sense than anything else written so far. IMHO

I think for chaos I'd have four:

1. Chaos Daemons.

2. Undivided chaos warbands.

3. Warbands with a patron.

4. Renegades.

That way you get your daemons, your standard CSM, Your 1k sons, berserkers etc. and your Soul-Drinker-esque thing.

Also, the Undivided Warbands could take a limited number of patron'd units, but very limited.


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Ogryn wrote:Salamanders.

Codex

I wouldn't give Daemons their own book, frankly. But I would have some overlap going on I guess.

It's kind of hard to really divvy Chaos up well without going silly.

Ideally, I'd do this:
Book I: "Servants of the Dark God". 'Generic' Undivided forces--Black Legion, Word Bearers, and the Thousand Sons.

Book II: "The Touch of the Corrupt".
'Generic' Tzeentchian Warbands(read: not Thousand Sons proper, but something similar might be workable) and Nurgle warbands+Death Guard.
I know that Tzeentch and Nurgle are diametrically opposed, but they also have a lot in common. Both play "the long odds", and manipulate circumstances to their favor.

Book III: "Gaze of the Gods".
Khornate warbands and Slaaneshi warbands. World Eaters and Emperor's Children get their own lists in here.
Again, they're diametrically opposed...but again very similar. They both favor their heroes who perform well, and enjoy punishing those who fail.

Book IV: "Shattered Oaths".
This one will be...well. This one is kinda tough.
I'm thinking that Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Red Corsairs all have some good tie-ins. They try to get rid of 'marked' units--but they're not entirely opposed to making use of said 'marked' units.

Daemons would be available to all of them, so that's kind of my biggest fear right there.

...Thousand Sons aren't undivided though.

best way is to have 2 Chaos Codex's.

1. Undivided
Includes basically everything with cheaper but more numerous units

2. Dedicated
Includes the 4 singular worships with more expensive more powerful units. Shares the same lists except for specialised units such as Rhubric, Berserkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines which also dictate your HQ and Daemon choices etc.

DarkCorsair wrote:What would I like to see? A short supplement book for Space Marines containing rules for certain chapters (for example you could buy x ability for xx points, but if you do you can't use x unit, or you lose combat tactics). It could also contain new units for certain chapters, and contain fluff for these chapters.

A system like that doesn't work. Any system where you give up something to gain something else is inherently flawed because you can get away with taking bonuses whilst taking 'penalties' that aren't really penalties. It's the reason why the Trait system (and the Doctrine system before it) didn't work. If the thing you lost was something you were never going to take in the first place, then you haven't really lost anything, have you?

I mean if, for exammple, you could pay X points to get twin-linked on all your Meltas and Master Crafting on all Thunder Hammers, but you lost the ability to take Assault Squads but were never going to take Assault Squads in your army, then there's no down side to this ability. Its like how in the old Trait system you could take a bonus, and then take a penalty, and you could take the 'No allies allowed' penalty which was great if you never intended to take any allies.

Blood_Raven wrote:...Thousand Sons aren't undivided though.

Thousand Sons aren't Undivided, but they're also not solely Tzeentchian.

There's two 'flavors' of Tzeentchian elements right now. There's Thousand Sons...and then everybody else.

The Thousand Sons are distinct enough that putting them into the book alongside other Tzeentchian forces just confuses everyone.

I understand that not all Tzeentchian Marines are Thousand Sons... but aren't all Thousand Sons Tzeentchian Marines?

All the Rubric Marines are essentially automatons.

They don't care about Tzeentch or Chaos period, they just follow the orders passed to them by their sorcerous brothers.
People like Ahriman or the other more 'famous' Thousand Son sorcerers seem to be less of the "Tzeentch" devotion, more of the "I am above such petty things as simple devotion, and will use whatever tool I want for the job".

I know it feels silly to separate the two, but the fluff has (to me at least) always painted the Thousand Sons being split into two distinct factions.
You've got Ahriman's faction, who are the most common ones going out into the Materium and scouring for a way into the Black Library to get at the knowledge necessary to reverse the Rubric.

Then you've got Magnus' faction, who seemingly aren't doing too much outside of quiet contemplation on the Planet of Sorcerers. These ones would be more of your 'traditional' Tzeentchian faction.

Kan is correct with his distinction and there is a clear separation from a fluff perspective. From a rules perspective, separating the two would cause further confusion IMO. It would be simpler to leave both factions in the same book and leave it up to fluff entries and user creativity to emphasise a distinction.

I could see chaos being done adequately as two books:

Chaos Renegades
• Contains rules for Alpha Legion, Red Corsairs, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Traitor Guardsman/cultists.
• Does not contain marked daemons or greater daemons but has almost as much toys as loyalist forces.


Chaos Legions
• Contains the big 4 + Black Legion + Word Bearers + God specific daemons.
• Book would make use of a strong mark system plus FOC unlocks to represent god specific units and warbands.
• Less toys than loyalist and renegades. Operates as a smaller numbers, elite type MEQ force.

Vermillion wrote:Traits.

Crusader like adjustes the army to be BT like.
Clan adjusts it to be IH, Salamanders like
Emo vampire adjusts to BA, Ravenguard like
Closetemo for DA like
Codex for UM, IF, etc

Gets rid of special character stigma, give each triat a set advatages and flaws set in stone and not abusable. Oh trait names are WiP

lol Emo Vampires.. perfectly describes Blood Angels and those who play them *Duck*

Kanluwen wrote:All the Rubric Marines are essentially automatons.

They don't care about Tzeentch or Chaos period, they just follow the orders passed to them by their Sorcerous brothers.

Ok, well yes, but they're still Tzeentchian automatons in the sense that there are no Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Thousand Son Marines being directed around by Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Sorcerers.

Kanluwen wrote:People like Ahriman or the other more 'famous' Thousand Son sorcerers seem to be less of the "Tzeentch" devotion, more of the "I am above such petty things as simple devotion, and will use whatever tool I want for the job".

I agree here, especially Ahriman who started this whole thing to both save his Legion and to master Chaos in order to defeat it. Of course, his chosen tool is Tzeentch, and him and his disciples all fall under the ‘Tzeentchian’ heading as well, if only because they’re not unaligned (they certainly are dedicated, even if out of convenience or necessity rather than any real devotion) and they’re not aligned to any other Chaos God.

Kanluwen wrote:I know it feels silly to separate the two, but the fluff has (to me at least) always painted the Thousand Sons being split into two distinct factions.

It’s not silly at all. I’ve long thought that the 1KSons should exist in two distinct factions – those that went with Ahriman, and those that stayed with Magnus. In our own fluff/campaigns we even had a disciple of Ahriman who eventually lost confidence in his master and rose to be a major champion for Magnus’ side.

I’m completely down with the idea of splitting the two (more Rubric Marines for Ahriman as he hates the changing nature of Tzeentch, and more Possessed (and similar) for Magnus as he accepts and embraces all that comes with the God of Magic and Change). I would still argue that both factions are still Tzeentchian, even if one worships Tzeentch whereas the other simply uses it as a means to an end.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:All the Rubric Marines are essentially automatons.

They don't care about Tzeentch or Chaos period, they just follow the orders passed to them by their Sorcerous brothers.

Ok, well yes, but they're still Tzeentchian automatons in the sense that there are no Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Thousand Son Marines being directed around by Slaaneshi or Nurglesque Sorcerers.

See, but here's where I take issue with putting them in under the Tzeentch heading.

There's nothing about them where it comes up and slaps you upside the head saying "TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH!".

The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.

To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.

Kanluwen wrote:People like Ahriman or the other more 'famous' Thousand Son sorcerers seem to be less of the "Tzeentch" devotion, more of the "I am above such petty things as simple devotion, and will use whatever tool I want for the job".

I agree here, especially Ahriman who started this whole thing to both save his Legion and to master Chaos in order to defeat it. Of course, his chosen tool is Tzeentch, and him and his disciples all fall under the ‘Tzeentchian’ heading as well, if only because they’re not unaligned (they certainly are dedicated, even if out of convenience or necessity rather than any real devotion) and they’re not aligned to any other Chaos God.

See, if it were me?

I'd go a bit further and kind of do a 'retcon' of Ahriman using Tzeentch as his chosen tool.

Ahriman as a kind of 'Sorcerous Cabal' example, where he gets his own special formation, replete with cultists and Rubric Marines--it would be very different say to if we introduced a character and archetype in the actual Tzeentch list where he is focused more upon the scheming aspect, while Ahriman is focused more upon the anarchy and exploitation of knowledge he requires in the main book and Ahriman isn't limited to just Tzeentchian "Lore", but knows how to exploit all the Ruinous Powers to his own advantage.

Kanluwen wrote:I know it feels silly to separate the two, but the fluff has (to me at least) always painted the Thousand Sons being split into two distinct factions.

It’s not silly at all. I’ve long thought that the 1KSons should exist in two distinct factions – those that went with Ahriman, and those that stayed with Magnus. In our own fluff/campaigns we even had a disciple of Ahriman who eventually lost confidence in his master and rose to be a major champion for Magnus’ side.

I’m completely down with the idea of splitting the two (more Rubric Marines for Ahriman as he hates the changing nature of Tzeentch, and more Possessed (and similar) for Magnus as he accepts and embraces all that comes with the God of Magic and Change). I would still argue that both factions are still Tzeentchian, even if one worships Tzeentch whereas the other simply uses it as a means to an end.

It comes down to splitting hairs but I'd feel more comfortable doing Tzeentch as not an organization that was forced into Tzeentch's grasp like the Thousand Sons were, instead focusing upon those who go willingly seeking the Changer of Ways.


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I should also add that I've been thinking a bit more about how I'd do 'something' to tie the various books for the Loyalists together, and that would be one section shared amongst all of them...and even adapted for all the races, given some brainstorming.

H.B.M.C., you'll love this one.

Section: "Deathwatch Veteran Honors".

Veteran Sergeants(any squad, from Scouts to Terminators), Terminator, Sternguard, Vanguard, and whatever the specific book's equivalent to those categories are can be given a specific Honor from a list within.

Examples would be:
Scout Veteran Sergeant is given the "Strike Swift, Strike Silent" Veteran Honor.
He exchanges his normal Bolter and Bolt Pistol/CCW combination for a Stalker Bolter and his armor is exchanged for "Infiltrator" Scout Armor rather than the "standard" pattern(which I don't think has ever been named, but "Rites of Battle" does make it clear that it's not 100% the same, apparently). This allows the Scout Veteran Sergeant to have an Interlocutor Beacon, which gives the owner the ability to ignore things which would disrupt Deep Striking units or stuff of that nature.

Kanluwen wrote:See, but here's where I take issue with putting them in under the Tzeentch heading.

There's nothing about them where it comes up and slaps you upside the head saying "TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH! TZEENTCH!".

Other than the fact that they're the Cult Troops of the Tzeentch-serving Legion, and always have been in every single iteration of the 40K fluff since the 1KSons' inception in Lost & The Damned (page 267 if you want to check). There's 'interpreting' the fluff Kan, and then there's what I'll call 'wilful creative ignorance'.

Kanluwen wrote:The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.

That's because Rubric Marines are not an organisation or entity unto themselves. They are foot soldiers wielded as weapons by their (Tzeentch-aligned) Sorcerer masters. Just because they are automatons doesn't mean they aren't of Tzeentch. They might have no say in the matter, but they fight in armies dedicated to, fighting for or simply using the powers granted by Tzeentch. They never fight as forces aligned with Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh or unaligned. They always fight under the banner of Tzeentch, even if they themselves no longer have any real understanding of the concept.

Kanluwen wrote:To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.

Not really the same thing.

Kanluwen wrote:See, if it were me?

I'd go a bit further and kind of do a 'retcon' of Ahriman using Tzeentch as his chosen tool.

Ahriman as a kind of 'Sorcerous Cabal' example, where he gets his own special formation, replete with cultists and Rubric Marines--it would be very different say to if we introduced a character and archetype in the actual Tzeentch list where he is focused more upon the scheming aspect, while Ahriman is focused more upon the anarchy and exploitation of knowledge he requires in the main book and Ahriman isn't limited to just Tzeentchian "Lore", but knows how to exploit all the Ruinous Powers to his own advantage.

Ok, that's fine, but as he is written now, he is a Tzeentch Sorcerer, even if he is only a Tzeentch sorcerer because it suits his current needs.

Kanluwen wrote:It comes down to splitting hairs but I'd feel more comfortable doing Tzeentch as not an organization that was forced into Tzeentch's grasp like the Thousand Sons were, instead focusing upon those who go willingly seeking the Changer of Ways.

And, again, that's fine, but as it is written currently the 1KSons are the Tzeentch-aligned legion.

Kanluwen wrote:I should also add that I've been thinking a bit more about how I'd do 'something' to tie the various books for the Loyalists together, and that would be one section shared amongst all of them...and even adapted for all the races, given some brainstorming.

I had an idea ages ago about something called Heraldic Titles, essentially taking those 'Master of the Fleet', 'Master of the Watch' and other various titles most Marine Chapters have (in one form or another) and turning them into character 'packages' that give them set Wargear (ie. 'Traditional' weapons) and a special rule or two for +X points.

I should just have said that I just have a hard time holding the Thousand Sons up as an 'exemplar' of the Tzeentchian warbands, if only because we've not seen anything else to indicate that the Rubric Marines are having numbers added to their ranks.

Kanluwen wrote:The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.

To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.

That's way it is in the current fluff, but I heard that in the next codex the new fluff is going to have them rise up and turn against the sorcerers. They will have much more personality (they will have hobbies like gardening and stamp collecting) and the sorcerers will actually be sorcerer shards which are controlled by the rubric marines. No foolies.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Rubric Marines, as it stand now, have no real organization nor any motives. They're reliant entirely upon the Sorcerers of the Cabals and the like.

To use a hesitant metaphor: they might as well be Tyranids guided by the Hive Mind, for all the interaction they currently have.

That's way it is in the current fluff, but I heard that in the next codex the new fluff is going to have them rise up and turn against the sorcerers. They will have much more personality (they will have hobbies like gardening and stamp collecting) and the sorcerers will actually be sorcerer shards which are controlled by the rubric marines. No foolies.

I'm gonna a go with stupidly sarcastic. No one is slow witted enough to take this bait.