So the other night i'm playing at my games club and this dude playing behind me kept commenting on my game (i was playing grey knights, my mate was playing dark elfdar), its quite common for spectators where we play, and people always comment and banter. This dude sat there quiet as a mouse whilst my mate deployed, then came my turn he stood just over my shoulder letting out the largest sigh every time a razorback or dread came onto the table (3000 points - it was a lot of sighs), so the game progressed, i have to ask him several times to stop giving my opponent advice (my opponent is in no way inexperienced), then on the second turn he goes livid, i kill a couple raiders and take out his incusbus squad and a fair amount of wytches (good turn but nothing major) he flips out and doesn't stop for an hour about how cheesy grey knights are.
So anyways when he starts its just him, but ofc people begin joining the bandwagon, everytime i do something it provokes more and more outrage (force weapon something, cleansing flame, heroic sacrifice etc etc) by about the forth turn there is a mob of about 6 guys stood round cheering everytime a grey knight model hits the dust, booing everytime i do something. My mate eventually told them to get lost/shut up etc, but I left that night looking like a complete donkey-cave, whilst someone actually offered my mate a drink as a "runners up prize".
Now i know this is a very unique incident. But in your experience who are the biggest cheese callers?
So far i have found it is the people who are incapable of making a competitive list, and will only play against other poor lists or weak armies. I offered the guy a match the next day on our forum (he plays gunline guard, and mechspam blood angels) he refused, unless i played my orks.
Is cheese calling justified in the majority of cases (bring 8 units with warp quake against daemons is i know) or is it just a case of bad losers hating?
The kind of people who play warhammer are not known for their social skills. Whether or not Grey Knights are cheese is irrelavent, they should have the good grace to be polite.
A lot of the time? If it's not a WAAC list or one pinched from the internet, then it's a case of soreloseritis. 40k Is about facing challenges and adapting, if they stubbornly want to keep playing the same list and demand that you change yours, then they're simply being arseholes.
Joey wrote:If you'll read what OP actually put, you'll notice his opponant was perfectly civilised throughout, it was other players that were the problem.
And if you read what the OP actually put, you'll notice that later on, a gunline guard and mechspam BA player refused to play his GKs.
I'm not a competitive player, which I freely admit (not in 40K anyway, i don't think the game is balanced enough for it, so play WM/Hordes for my tournament game).
So, when playing 40K, I generally ask if it's somebody I don't know whether they are playing a tournament, WAAC or optimised list. If they are, i'll either play them for fun anyway and see how I do with my silly fluff lists, or politley decline, depending on my mood.
However, the point is that a bit of communication SHOULD in theory remove any issues between the two players, who are really all that matter. As long as people don't lie about it in order to somehow make themselves feel better when their WAAC netlist crushes your painstakingly accurate and rather feeble pre-heresy foot marines (yep...my poor dudes :(), it's fine.
Sadly, as somebody pointed out, many Warhammer players are seriously lacking in social skills, and on top of being deeply obnoxious, love to jump onto the bandwagon. This is one reason I don't play at stores much (the other being if one more horrific teenage scumbag picks up my stuff without asking, i'll end up jail).
At the end of the day, as long as you and the opponent are having fun, nothing else is really relevant, especially the opinions of a bunch of howler monkey retards around the table. Ideally, you and your opponent should both tell them to sod off and take a shower (they probably smell, this kind usually does).
No idea where my point is now....I think it's "Have fun, let your opponent have fun, talk before hand, and sod the morons".
Personally, I wouldn't have said anything. I would have thunderstomped him into the ground, as hard as I could. I would have done everything I could to make sure there was not a model left on the table by the time I was done. Afterwards, I would have said, in the flatest tone possible, "What do you know, I guess they are cheesy. Huh." And then I would have found a game with someone who wasn't a part of the mob of tools.
For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.
I don't believe entirely in cheese, and while I prefer to see lists designed for fluff or not made to be hyper-competitive, I don't even mind people giving a player advice if there is a REAL disadvantage, however, it is extremely rude to stand by a table calling cheese on everything you do, and you should ask said players not to spectate on your game if they cannot behave appropriately.
daedalus wrote:Personally, I wouldn't have said anything. I would have thunderstomped him into the ground, as hard as I could. I would have done everything I could to make sure there was not a model left on the table by the time I was done. Afterwards, I would have said, in the flatest tone possible, "What do you know, I guess they are cheesy. Huh." And then I would have found a game with someone who wasn't a part of the mob of tools.
For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.
Again:
His opponent never said they were cheesy. He was entirely polite and civilised.
So your response would seem a little our of order....
daedalus wrote:Personally, I wouldn't have said anything. I would have thunderstomped him into the ground, as hard as I could. I would have done everything I could to make sure there was not a model left on the table by the time I was done. Afterwards, I would have said, in the flatest tone possible, "What do you know, I guess they are cheesy. Huh." And then I would have found a game with someone who wasn't a part of the mob of tools.
For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.
Again:
His opponent never said they were cheesy. He was entirely polite and civilised.
So your response would seem a little our of order....
As previously stated, his opponent was not the problem, in fact his opponent told off the trouble makers, it was spectators who caused the issue.
daedalus wrote:
For the uninformed: Grey Knights AREN'T cheesy. They're adaptable and versatile, but they're not unstoppable. I've won games using Nids (of all things) against them, and I've lost to Eldar Wraithspam using them. They have weaknesses, and it's just a matter of accounting for them.
So, they're just like every other codex released for the past 18 or so years.
I once tabled a BA spam list (at least 6 razorbacks) with pretty average Eldar list (2 prisms, 3x10 man avenger units in wave serpents + farseer).
Afterwards the guy I was playing started to said "there was nothing I could do, your list was really cheesey", I laughed at how hypocritical he was being and walked away. I haven't played him again since
I would have just picked up my stuff and never played at that club again. Talk about a group of just immature sore losers. GK aren't OP obviously people are too dumb to learn that they die just like any other MEQ.
Just take it in stride and when the next codex comes out just get ready for more people bandwagoning.
It defiantly shows that the guy is a poor sportsman, however I think it is a sign of what GW has done to the game. I have seen this kind of thing more and more on forums and in stores, though certainly not to this level. I think it is just peoples growing frustration with how OTT the most of the latest books are, i.e. SW, BA, and GK. GK are probably the worst culprit of this. I remember seeing stuff like this when fantasy Daemons came out at the end of 7th. People are getting tired of putting out hundreds of dollars and countless hours into armies only to be blown off the table by Matt Ward’s latest steam roller book. Marines in general have always been a safe point and click option, but GK do this to the extreme and have no draw backs. The guy is an A%$ for interfering in someone else’s game, but I think it is something you may have to be prepared for, people are getting pissed off. Stores and clubs are starting to split into camps, the Ward fans and everyone else. As wrong as his actions were he is obviously not alone in his opinions if others were joining in. Though the most ironic part is that he is a BA player.
Ah, my apologies, for some reason, I had conflated the situation into there being "the sighing Dude (who was playing)", "OP's friend (who was part of another game)", and "the angry mob". Rereading it, I understand my source of confusion and the correct interpretation.
I get irrationally pissed off when people 'call cheese'. I mean, it doesn't add value to the game, and it doesn't actually repair their bruised egos, and there's really just no point in it. I've had opponents whine about how stupid crazy cheesy my army is while they're WINNING. I'm honestly not sure what I would do in a circumstance when it's a bunch of people who have zero vested interest in the game.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Remember when Orks or Tau were crazy good?
Orks stopped being good? They still regularly win at Adepticon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something else I've noticed is that I get much less whining about GK when I bust out the metal guys compared when when I run an all plastic army. I've intentionally chose different percentages of metal vs. plastic to see if I get a different response.
From my experience the ones to call cheese the fastest are the least skilled. The reason OP probably got the worst of it was the GK are the newest book out, a few months back and they'd likely do the same for the DE player.
This used to happen to me when I used my Eldar (hybrid, some mobile units back by a block of guardians to hold the home base. I'm by no means a competitive player, I use what looks cool as long as it isn't entirely worthless (*cough*swooping hawks, such cool models such poor performance*cough*)), the same guy would generally give out tips to whatever my opponent was at the time, whether it be stealer spam (with the last codex) or blue Iron Warrors (full mech, razorback spam vanilla marines). My friends and I stopped going to that store and found a better one instead, though it did help to ignore them. Better yet when they say they made a cheesy list to defeat you, then get stomped instead.
300 would have been a pretty stupid movie if the Spartans got to have as many guys as cause they called cheese.
40k is all about the against all odds, no matter what, DEATH OR GLORY! If my opponent is running a super hyper competitive list, I'm at the advantage. A loss for me is expected, a tie is a win for me, and Winning is all the sweeter because it was my victory during the game.
Jollydevil wrote:Whats the problem with Tau? i always have trouble with them.
Same. My friend plays Tau and I have never EVER beaten him. I guess that's more of a testament to our relative skills at the game rather than the armies.
As a guard player i'm still upset the grey knights can out tactical genius creed, the tactical genius... lol
Jokes aside, it comes down to codex creep imo. It seems every codex tries to be a bit better then the last. And i'll call cheese on any cheesy thing, including my own codex, heres looking at you meltavet spam, or vendettas. Just not at the table. Every codex has a cheesy unit or three, however it just seems that anything matt touches becomes super cheesy. Dare i say, dangerously cheesy (sorry eating some cheetos and saw it.) Matts just a horrible codex writer. And i happen to agree with Mr. S. Baldrick, camps are being formed, matt ward supporters, and everyone else.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As a guard player i'm still upset the grey knights can out tactical genius creed, the tactical genius... lol
Jokes aside, it comes down to codex creep imo. It seems every codex tries to be a bit better then the last. And i'll call cheese on any cheesy thing, including my own codex, heres looking at you meltavet spam, or vendettas. Just not at the table. Every codex has a cheesy unit or three, however it just seems that anything matt touches becomes super cheesy. Dare i say, dangerously cheesy (sorry eating some cheetos and saw it.) Matts just a horrible codex writer. And i happen to agree with Mr. S. Baldrick, camps are being formed, matt ward supporters, and everyone else.
I have a few things about your post that bother me:
- Not every codex HAS been better than the last.
- Your post seems to indicate that you genuinely believe that anyone who is credited with writing a codex has sole and abosolute governance over its content.
- By your logic, Phil Kelly is at least as bad a codex writer because of Space Wolves; a codex that still stands competitively against Blood Angels and Grey Knights.
- You're implying that there are is a false dichotomy of people who are either 'against you' or 'with you'. You're completely writing off the people who have apparently caused themselves enough brain damage to believe genuinely that any given codex has the tools to be able to win against any other one, and that the game is just a little bit more balanced than every last Chicken Little would have you believe.
I would have (verbally) laid into that guy. I can't stand people like that. I have an absolute zero tolerance for behaviour of that kind.
I reserve cheese to list-tailoring and bending of the rules in beardy ways. I once thought certain armies were cheesy, but everything has its weakness.
Blacksails wrote:I would have (verbally) laid into that guy. I can't stand people like that. I have an absolute zero tolerance for behaviour of that kind.
I reserve cheese to list-tailoring and bending of the rules in beardy ways. I once thought certain armies were cheesy, but everything has its weakness.
Where is the weakness in GK, and you can't say model count because they can have as many models as SM it all depends on the list a player takes. For a book as a whole were is the weakness?
They die like Space Marines. Still a bunch of expensive power armoured models in AV11 tanks. My executioners, demolishers, battlecannons, mulitlasers, plasma guns and meltaguns kill them just as easily as they did other marines. In close combat, my vets die the same way they did before, only now its faster.
Its a good dex, but not stupid overpowered that we should stop playing 40k unless you play GK.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As a guard player i'm still upset the grey knights can out tactical genius creed, the tactical genius... lol
Jokes aside, it comes down to codex creep imo. It seems every codex tries to be a bit better then the last. And i'll call cheese on any cheesy thing, including my own codex, heres looking at you meltavet spam, or vendettas. Just not at the table. Every codex has a cheesy unit or three, however it just seems that anything matt touches becomes super cheesy. Dare i say, dangerously cheesy (sorry eating some cheetos and saw it.) Matts just a horrible codex writer. And i happen to agree with Mr. S. Baldrick, camps are being formed, matt ward supporters, and everyone else.
I have a few things about your post that bother me:
- Not every codex HAS been better than the last. Fair point, but the majorty of new codexes are better then previous codexes.
- Your post seems to indicate that you genuinely believe that anyone who is credited with writing a codex has sole and abosolute governance over its content. Well it does say written by X. Which implies that X had a fair amount of say into what goes into the codex. Sure you may have a few editors, or fact checkers but for the most part the writer writes what is in the codex.
- By your logic, Phil Kelly is at least as bad a codex writer because of Space Wolves; a codex that still stands competitively against Blood Angels and Grey Knights. Space wolves was pretty cheesy, but thats one codex. Matt Ward on the other hand, wrote Deamons of Choas, Codex Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angles, Codex Grey Knights, and the new Sisters Codex. All have had cheesy units and bad fluff or extreme mary sue fluff. - You're implying that there are is a false dichotomy of people who are either 'against you' or 'with you'. You're completely writing off the people who have apparently caused themselves enough brain damage to believe genuinely that any given codex has the tools to be able to win against any other one, and that the game is just a little bit more balanced than every last Chicken Little would have you believe. Well yes we tend to ignore the people with brain damage. They dont really matter in this game, since they have brain damage. In fact since they have brain damage maybe they should see a doctor instead of posting on dakka, or playing wargames. Ask a sarcastic question get a sarcastic answer my friend.
I said i aggred with Mr. S. Baldrick, when he said "Stores and clubs are starting to split into camps, the Ward fans and everyone else." Which is something thats happening at my store.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Where is the weakness in GK, and you can't say model count because they can have as many models as SM it all depends on the list a player takes. For a book as a whole were is the weakness?
Low model count. Still said it, because it's still true. They pay more for a 3+ save than anyone else does. They've an inability to buy storm shields.
Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. They cost 125% more than a tac squad marine does. That means that, per 1000 points worth of GK bodies, SM have spent only 800 points for the same amount. That's a low model count. Maybe not as low as you would prefer, but that doesn't make it any less true. That's for strike squads. The point only becomes that much more pronounced in Terminators, Paladins, or Purifiers.
Their weakness? Anything that is a weakness for any other marine army. Plasma guns, melta guns, power weapons, battlecannons, missile launchers, genestealers, and so forth.
I used to get angry about the new powerful army too, but then I realized that crying cheese and hiding under your bed doesn't make them go away. Understanding them and doing what you can to become a better player in spite of the new challenge before you is how you make them go away.
Blacksails wrote:They die like Space Marines. Still a bunch of expensive power armoured models in AV11 tanks. My executioners, demolishers, battlecannons, mulitlasers, plasma guns and meltaguns kill them just as easily as they did other marines. In close combat, my vets die the same way they did before, only now its faster.
Its a good dex, but not stupid overpowered that we should stop playing 40k unless you play GK.
The thing is they are not like playing regular SM, yes they have the same armour but that is about where it ends. Between all of the 4+ cover, jump troops, LR and Storm Ravens you can't shoot them all. They will get to you, even if it is a few with hammer they are going to clean house in combat. Every model has a power weapon, the same can not be said for SM. At least agaisnt SM your guard will get a save most ot the time in combat, not the same against GK. Don't count on being able to stay nice and safe in those chimeras either, with hammer hand and thunder hammers they won't last long, that is if they are not plown away from all the S8 rifle men dreads, or S7 assault cannons. If the GK player has any clue what he is doing you will only get one turn with those meta guns anyway. They have a 12 inch range if you are shooting this turn he is assaulting you next turn. You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat. Its not at all like playing against SM.
As someone said earlier, every codex has some cheese in it. Even as far back as 2nd Edition... anyone else remember Space Wolf Terminators with Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, and Cyclone Missile Launchers?
However, it seems as though with the last batch of codexes, there are more units that invite unbalanced exploitation. And I think the reason for this is the GW wants to sell more models. It used to be a model sold because it was awesome looking, or it fit with how an army played. Now people are scooping up models because they can spam them in an exploitative WAAC list. If the IG could only field Heavy Support tanks in single units, as opposed to groups of 3, would anyone buy a Manticore? Or nine of them?
daedalus/ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
- Not every codex HAS been better than the last. Fair point, but the majorty of new codexes are better then previous codexes.
- Your post seems to indicate that you genuinely believe that anyone who is credited with writing a codex has sole and abosolute governance over its content. Well it does say written by X. Which implies that X had a fair amount of say into what goes into the codex. Sure you may have a few editors, or fact checkers but for the most part the writer writes what is in the codex.
- By your logic, Phil Kelly is at least as bad a codex writer because of Space Wolves; a codex that still stands competitively against Blood Angels and Grey Knights. Space wolves was pretty cheesy, but thats one codex. Matt Ward on the other hand, wrote Deamons of Choas, Codex Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angles, Codex Grey Knights, and the new Sisters Codex. All have had cheesy units and bad fluff or extreme mary sue fluff. - You're implying that there are is a false dichotomy of people who are either 'against you' or 'with you'. You're completely writing off the people who have apparently caused themselves enough brain damage to believe genuinely that any given codex has the tools to be able to win against any other one, and that the game is just a little bit more balanced than every last Chicken Little would have you believe. Well yes we tend to ignore the people with brain damage. They don't really matter in this game, since they have brain damage. In fact since they have brain damage maybe they should see a doctor instead of posting on dakka, or playing wargames. Ask a sarcastic question get a sarcastic answer my friend.
Hey, I was serious about the last bit. Sometimes I feel like I'm either the sane guy in the nuthouse or the crazy guy everyone is trying to ignore. Since I can't tell, I err on the side of caution that I'm crazy. The corduroy trousers I'm wearing as a hat tend to agree with me.
The thing is, 3rd edition codexes are godawfulbad compared with 4th edition codexes. The 4th edition codexes are also, in turn, godawfulbad compared with the 5th edition codexes. There's very few 5th edition codexes that are honestly 'bad', except for Tyranids, and that's only because it's just so damn trendy to talk about how bad Tyranids are that I just can't help myself.
Something else to consider: 6th edition is coming. They're making changes, and surely have to be aware of a lot of those changes now. There's evidence in how a lot of trends have appeared lately. Non-independent characters running around on their own, psyker mastery levels, and a whole slew of special grenades? I think that 6th is going to pop out, and then a lot of the "balance issues" are going to be ironed out that way. But, again, that's just what my hat says.
Also, didn't Cruddace do Sisters? Are they really that cheesy?
daedalus wrote:They've an inability to buy storm shields.
Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. .
They don't need storm shields they have warding staffs, all you need is one per squad for the odd ball lascannon shot. On average even if it is a guard vet squad with 3 meltas only 2 will hit and wound, thats one save on a 4+ cover, or a 5+ invul, and the other goes on the staff 2+ invul. No weapon upgrads, what do you call S5 storm bolters, and thunder hammers, plus all the crazy grenades.
Nah. The peple who call Grey Knights cheese just don't know how to play. They are not that overpowered, altrough they are easy to play. With the right strategies, you can beat them easily. These people just show their own stupidity by disturbing your game and calling you a noob. If he had disturbed me like that he would have been busy removing my dreadknight from his ass even in the following morning.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
The thing is they are not like playing regular SM, yes they have the same armour but that is about where it ends. Between all of the 4+ cover, jump troops, LR and Storm Ravens you can't shoot them all. They will get to you, even if it is a few with hammer they are going to clean house in combat. Every model has a power weapon, the same can not be said for SM. At least agaisnt SM your guard will get a save most ot the time in combat, not the same against GK. Don't count on being able to stay nice and safe in those chimeras either, with hammer hand and thunder hammers they won't last long, that is if they are not plown away from all the S8 rifle men dreads, or S7 assault cannons. If the GK player has any clue what he is doing you will only get one turn with those meta guns anyway. They have a 12 inch range if you are shooting this turn he is assaulting you next turn. You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat. Its not at all like playing against SM.
GK get more 4+ cover, jump troops, Land Raiders and Stormravens than anyone else? I guess stormravens. Not everyone gets those. The thing is that the jump infantry that GK gets is actually pretty bad. I mean, at the end of the day, they only have one attack each. Sure, they have power weapons, but they also get about half the attacks. Concerning the dreadnoughts, all I have to say is that the game survived Long Fangs.
Your second to last statement confuses me:
You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat.
I am seriously confused with what army you are playing that two GK have wiped out a squad in combat? Which GK? You realize that GKSS only have one attack a piece right? Same thing with the jump infantry. They shouldn't be able to get more than 2 attacks on you on the charge. Have you actually read their codex? What army are you playing that you have so many problems with them? I'm really curious at this point, because it sounds like I must be playing mine severely wrong.
Some people will complain about anything that they think is better than what they have. It's not about challenge or fun to them, it's about WINNING, and if they don't win they throw a little temper tantrum.
daedalus wrote:They've an inability to buy storm shields.
Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. .
They don't need storm shields they have warding staffs, all you need is one per squad for the odd ball lascannon shot. On average even if it is a guard vet squad with 3 meltas only 2 will hit and wound, thats one save on a 4+ cover, or a 5+ invul, and the other goes on the staff 2+ invul. No weapon upgrads, what do you call S5 storm bolters, and thunder hammers, plus all the crazy grenades.
Ah, I get it now. You just confirmed my theory. Do yourself a favor and borrow your friends codex, read it, and then roll it up and smack him on the head with it. You're getting taken for a ride. The 4++ sword save and the 2++ staff save only apply in melee. Beyond that, they have their regular invul save. Also, if they don't normally get an invul save, then the swords don't give them a 6++.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
You might kill 2 or 3 on a lucky day, but it will only take 2 GK to whipe you out in combat.
I am seriously confused with what army you are playing that two GK have wiped out a squad in combat? Which GK? You realize that GKSS only have one attack a piece right? Same thing with the jump infantry. They shouldn't be able to get more than 2 attacks on you on the charge. Have you actually read their codex? What army are you playing that you have so many problems with them? I'm really curious at this point, because it sounds like I must be playing mine severely wrong.
Take a 10 man vet squad, the GK are first going to shoot with their S5 storm bolter hitting on 3 wounding on 2. That will kill probably 2 guardsmen, then they will assault, the justicar will have 2A base the Gk 1 so thats 5 on the assault w/hammerhand the will his on 3 wound on 2 killing three or four. So thats about 2 lost to shooting and lets even say 3 lost in combat, the GK was having an off day, the 5 guard left will do nothing in combat and the GK will win combat and kill them in the sweeping advance. Hence just 2 GK taking out a squad od guard. It has not happened to me, but I have seen it done to other IG players Eldar, DE, and my own Marines. I even saw an 8 man purifier squad whipe out a 10 terminator squad in combat after shooting before the assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nectarprime wrote:Some people will complain about anything that they think is better than what they have. It's not about challenge or fun to them, it's about WINNING, and if they don't win they throw a little temper tantrum.
I don't think that is the case at all. People don't mind loosing as long as they have a chance. There was never this much of a problem with SW or BA Ward just pushed things to the next level with GK.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nectarprime wrote:
Infreak wrote:Doesn't the warding stave only work in CC too? Those melta/lascannon shots are still gonna hurt.
I'm pretty sure you're right, but I don't use staves in my army and I don't have my codex with me to check.
If that is true I apologize I don't have my book infront of me, but they don’t even need that they are not paying that many points more than regular SM anyway
daedalus wrote:They've an inability to buy storm shields.
Sure, they can have as many bodies as a space marine army can, but then they don't have rides for them, weapon upgrades, or are lacking other heavy support. .
They don't need storm shields they have warding staffs, all you need is one per squad for the odd ball lascannon shot. On average even if it is a guard vet squad with 3 meltas only 2 will hit and wound, thats one save on a 4+ cover, or a 5+ invul, and the other goes on the staff 2+ invul. No weapon upgrads, what do you call S5 storm bolters, and thunder hammers, plus all the crazy grenades.
Somebody needs to read a Codex I think....it's definitely a lot less good then you are making out. Far worse than storm shields.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Take a 10 man vet squad, the GK are first going to shoot with their S5 storm bolter hitting on 3 wounding on 2. That will kill probably 2 guardsmen, then they will assault, the justicar will have 2A base the Gk 1 so thats 5 on the assault w/hammerhand the will his on 3 wound on 2 killing three or four. So thats about 2 lost to shooting and lets even say 3 lost in combat, the GK was having an off day, the 5 guard left will do nothing in combat and the GK will win combat and kill them in the sweeping advance. Hence just 2 GK taking out a squad od guard. It has not happened to me, but I have seen it done to other IG players Eldar, DE, and my own Marines. I even saw an 8 man purifier squad whipe out a 10 terminator squad in combat after shooting before the assault.
How many GKSS are in this squad? How did they get across the table? Why are the vets outside of their transport? Generally when I play IG I have enough vehicles to overwhelm target priority for the most part. Also: Power blobs can devour GK. When I play against blobs, I typically run for my life shooting behind me wildly and hope I can wear them down enough before they get to me.
Finally, you're comparing a 100 (because they have no transport) point unit to what is at least 140 (assuming a psycannon, psybolt ammo, and a hammer). Also, there should be less GKSS in the squad because the vets should have fired at them well within the 12" range needed to assault.
Frankly, either way, I would hope a 140 point unit designed to be decent at everything would be able to beat a 100 point unit designed to be a monster anti-tank in melee combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
If that is true I apologize I don't have my book infront of me, but they don’t even need that they are not paying that many points more than regular SM anyway
Don't worry, I can confirm, staves don't work for shooting. Their cost is also variable depending upon what you put them on. They're seriously not worth it though.
nectarprime wrote:Would my 2000 point list with only 2 LR, 1 LR Redeemer, 15 paladins and Draigo be called cheese?
Against some lists it would be unstoppable, against others it might well get owned horribly.Is it cheese? No.
Is it a competitive borderline WAAC list? yes.
I wouldn't call it cheese. I'd actually maybe call it overkill. If you're going to transport them, I'd maybe consider downgrading the Paladins in that case to Terminators and then packing in two psyfileman vendreads. That'd be cheesy.
daedalus wrote:Finally, you're comparing a 100 (because they have no transport) point unit to what is at least 140 (assuming a psycannon, psybolt ammo, and a hammer). Also, there should be less GKSS in the squad because the vets should have fired at them well within the 12" range needed to assault.
Frankly, either way, I would hope a 140 point unit designed to be decent at everything would be able to beat a 100 point unit designed to be a monster anti-tank in melee combat.
If you see some to the lists I see with 4-6 riflemen dreads, along with psybacks, storm ravens toting S7 assault cannons, those chimeras will not make it very long. The 30 inch shunt, plus being jump infantry will cut down on the tuns you can shoot at them.
I am not saying they are unbeatable; personally I have never lost to them. I have won about 5 or 6 and tied once. The issue is they are so OTT that they are not fun to play against. Even if you win the game is so ridiculous that you don’t want to play against them unless you have to. I even remember the days of 4th Ed daemonet spam and noise marines, or mob orks with the old chappa rules, insane Khorne berserkers with chain axes and none of that was as much of a tooth cracker as GK.
daedalus wrote:Finally, you're comparing a 100 (because they have no transport) point unit to what is at least 140 (assuming a psycannon, psybolt ammo, and a hammer). Also, there should be less GKSS in the squad because the vets should have fired at them well within the 12" range needed to assault.
Frankly, either way, I would hope a 140 point unit designed to be decent at everything would be able to beat a 100 point unit designed to be a monster anti-tank in melee combat.
If you see some to the lists I see with 4-6 riflemen dreads, along with psybacks, storm ravens toting S7 assault cannons, those chimeras will not make it very long. The 30 inch shunt, plus being jump infantry will cut down on the tuns you can shoot at them.
I am not saying they are unbeatable; personally I have never lost to them. I have won about 5 or 6 and tied once. The issue is they are so OTT that they are not fun to play against. Even if you win the game is so ridiculous that you don’t want to play against them unless you have to. I even remember the days of 4th Ed daemonet spam and noise marines, or mob orks with the old chappa rules, insane Khorne berserkers with chain axes and none of that was as much of a tooth cracker as GK.
Actually, I will back this.
Cheese or not, OP or not....ultimately, the GK netlists are incredibly boring to face. Hence I generally dont play against them, and since I don't play tournaments, that works well for me
daedalus wrote:Also, didn't Cruddace do Sisters? Are they really that cheesy?
Cruddace did the rules, Ward the fluff.
I haven't read the WD codex, but this is the first time I've heard anyone call them cheesy. People put me under the impression that the army was bad, lol.
Yeah, but all netlists are boring to play against. That's true if its razorspam, mechvets, tervigon spam, leafblower, or any list we can summarize in a single word.
daedalus wrote:Yeah, but all netlists are boring to play against. That's true if its razorspam, mechvets, tervigon spam, leafblower, or any list we can summarize in a single word.
True, I just personally find the GK ones even worse. I couldn't say why this is...maybe just soooo many of them.
I realise that may be unfair, but don't care.
if it's boring, i'm not wasting my time playing it
Being a player of armies such as eldar and brettonia (for fantasy), I know all about being OP. What I've found out while I steamrolled all my opponents is that there's very little point arguing with them on the matter. There is no build that cannot be beaten. So, what you do, it just sort of roll with the punches. For example, when I'm marching my guardians up the field slaughtering everything that stands, my opponent screams something along the lines of my units being "Over powered" and "let me see your army book". To this I respond, "I'm going to win this game and there's nothing you can do to stop me!" while laughing hysterically.
So yeah, just stomp face until they realize how to beat you.
The only time I ever call cheese is when I'm kidding. I know very well that if I had the chance I would probably do the same thing, and that every army has it's own variety of cheese.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
I am not saying they are unbeatable; personally I have never lost to them. I have won about 5 or 6 and tied once. The issue is they are so OTT
You have a logic failure here.
They're over the top powerful, but you've never lost to them? How can you claim both those things as true with good conscience?
I feel your pain on the cheese calling thing. It gets really annoying every time my tyrant uses paroxism, or when i make use of my deathleaper to nerf down libbies (TAKE THAT PSYCHIC HOODS!!!). One of the guys in my group started playing knights about a month ago. It took me a few games, but I found a reliable way to shut down pretty much his entire army. I outflank with two groups of genestealers, forcing his dreads/razorbacks into the center of the board. Then i take 2 groups of warriors and a tyrant and pretty much walk through everything he has. Paladins aren't so scary when you're getting 35 perfected enemy bonesword attacks on the charge, hitting/wounding on 3's. He then countered by using henchmen in a few games. Most people who play this game really don't get the strategic aspect of this game. Nearly every unit has a place in their army, and each can be devastating to the right opponent. All it takes is for them to think, which unfortunately is harder than them just raging over a unit or two. That being said, situations in which people cry cheese can be explained with two simple ideas;
1. Haters gonna hate
2. People are stupid
So keep playing the armies you like, and every once in a while field a weird list using units you'd normally never field. Makes it all the sweeter when you get walked on after everyone calls cheese on your army. Every once in a while a loss/tie can be a great thing to get the jerks off your back. If you're ballsy, I'd love to see a batrep using a crusader henchmen army.
P.S. I've never once had a person not say that the Doom is an absolutely rediculous unit, and that it should cost 3x what it does, or some such like that. I myself agree with them, and proceed to spirit leech their army away.
Oh man, I don't build a nid list without having at least 3 squads of Genestealers on it. They're expensive, but they get the job done, and they're fast too. I don't get the Tervispam that the netlists appear to insist upon, but now I fear this is getting offtopic.
My opinion has always been that if a person isn't playing a WAAC list, there's no reason why they shouldn't use units their codex provides if they want to. If you're playing for fun or to learn, then you might as well experience what your opponent can bring to bear against you.
On the other hand, GK are the only army against which I've felt I was out matched by the list rather than the player.
daedalus wrote:Oh man, I don't build a nid list without having at least 3 squads of Genestealers on it. They're expensive, but they get the job done, and they're fast too. I don't get the Tervispam that the netlists appear to insist upon, but now I fear this is getting offtopic.
And don't forget the Hive Guard. They will rape vehicles like no tomorrow.
That's rather ungentlemanly of them, to put it lightly. I won't deny that there is undercosted units and annoying lists, but generally it's better to keep polite and civil to other players, because they just want fun too (even if their idea of fun is squashing your self respect).
SlaveToDorkness wrote:"CHEESE!" Is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
This a million times. I played a SM player that would call cheese every single time I beat him with my Orks. Orks......... Like it was my fault he would bring non anti horde weapons and would set up to take out a mech army, when again, Im more horde style
Where is the weakness in GK, and you can't say model count because they can have as many models as SM it all depends on the list a player takes. For a book as a whole were is the weakness?
Well firstly, if he is taking bodycount, my Ultramarines are cheaper, and I will have a lot more shooting by the time all is said and done. For every strike squad member I have a tactical marine and then some. For every purifier I have a sternguard. Tailoring lists works both ways. But, onto the problems with the codex.
Lack of widespread melta without coteaz. Generally the only platform I see with it as my Ultramarines stare over the field is going to be a stormraven. I use land raiders. Glancing the thing to death, or trying to hit a moving vehicle in CC are going to cut down his effectiveness greatly. He could attempt to rend it with a psycannon, but that usually kills his mobility for the duration or it gets his terminators in the open to be shot at. Either is good. Meanwhile, you have a hojillion options for effective AV against any vehicle he could bring. You just have to keep firing until the thing dies or is immobilized, rather than stunning. Play it like you would against Daemonic posession vehicles with CSM.
His infantry really do just die as fast as mine, faster in the case of terminators. Rapid fire and special weapons work just as well here as anywhere else. TH/SS tend to roll their terminators up like newspaper even without null zone and vulkan. Sternguard hitting a unit of purifiers with rapid fire tends to result in pain and screaming. A four plasmagun command squad will result in similar hilarity.
Another massive weakness is the army wide reliance-to-over reliance on psychic powers. Runes, Njall, Shadow in the warp, boardwide hoods, regular hoods well-placed, even weaken resolve, can suppress all those shiny things they can do nicely...or shut them down almost completely. Their fortitude can be stopped. Hammerhand, stopped. Shrouding. Might of titan. Sanctuary. Etc. are all things the opponent has a chance to completely nullify. How many GKs do YOU know that take extra armor on their LRs/SRs? Almost none of them? Hope they roll well on hood tests!
There is a whole laundry list of places where an army can hit the GKs, but frequently the dicussion stops at "But force weapons in CEE CEE!1!1one-eleventy." and it's a shock, primarily to an apparently sizable group of marine players who aren't used to things like "Don't charge into CC with these."
"CHEESE!" Is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
Thirded. I've even heard it applied to my Ultramarines. Recently. My general guideline is that if you are hearing this phrase applied to you by the onlookers, you are doing something correct and should do it Harder.
to the OP, peopel will always be like that. heck I've played fun games with fluff lists and if they do well either the opponent or firends of the opponent will say it a cheese'overpowered list... hell I like to do shooting orks alot and it gets called cheese/overpowered when I roll well, btu the randomness of 45 lootas and 2 SAG eman I'll do well or do bad but have fun... but one thing a list like that is not... is cheesy
just roll with it, as long as you're using a legit list using a legit codex then there's no room for complaints. sure some things are overpowered ( /growl a JotWW snipign out my nob making my boyz useless) but most of those type of things are jsut what you have to deal with, makes things mroe challenging and rewarding if a win is pulled out
A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did
B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame
...so a new codex comes out, its different than the old one, provides new challenges, and gives old lists that were successful a real headache... and this is bad?!!
COME ON!! Strap on the thinking cap and your balls and figure out a way to beat it. If your list was beaten by his list rather than his tactics... maybe your favorite little army needs to evolve a little now.
Once I read through the GK codex, understood it as well (if not better) than my opponents, and I didn't have to ask what did what... they fell into the SM level of codex (solid, but very beatable). I hate to say it... but if your losing to a new dex when it comes out, that's good for the hobby (otherwise, why bother having new codices). If you're still losing to a new codex 6 months after its come out... its not the codex any more, its you and your sad little outdated army list.
Yep, even though I still run Nob Bikers in every friendly game I play against every army except Gray Knights, I don't run Nob Bikers at Tournaments any more. Though it did change my style of play and tactics, at least I have 600 points to move into more tournament vital units. This is probably how the massed cavalry charge felt about machine guns.
daedalus wrote:It's clearly your fault for not loading up on battlewagons and trukks.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:And for not having only grots in your army.
Well yea clearly! It reminds me of a battle rep I read on the internet once. Way back when APOC first started, and not everyone had a titan sitting in their garage this takes place. A fellow Ork player took his army to an APOC tourny with a gamble, he wanted to to field a HORDE Ork force against what he hoped was armies with super strong titan busters and lascannons, because those would do dick against all the Orks he brought. He knew if he faced an actual Titan, he was screwed.
So away he went, and ended up winning the whole competition because he got lucky and only faced armies with anti titan weapons Just FLOODED his opponents with boyz
*point was, taking an all comers is why all comer lists are the best lol
Lobukia wrote:I don't get two things in this thread
A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did
B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame
...so a new codex comes out, its different than the old one, provides new challenges, and gives old lists that were successful a real headache... and this is bad?!!
COME ON!! Strap on the thinking cap and your balls and figure out a way to beat it. If your list was beaten by his list rather than his tactics... maybe your favorite little army needs to evolve a little now.
Once I read through the GK codex, understood it as well (if not better) than my opponents, and I didn't have to ask what did what... they fell into the SM level of codex (solid, but very beatable). I hate to say it... but if your losing to a new dex when it comes out, that's good for the hobby (otherwise, why bother having new codices). If you're still losing to a new codex 6 months after its come out... its not the codex any more, its you and your sad little outdated army list.
To clarify, my GK experience was a week after the codex came out, against a player who wouldn't let me read it.
"He's playing Grey Knights! C'mon fellas! A lynch is a cinch!" (what a bunch of ers) Sod them, you find a club with some decent/non cheese calling players mate.
Lobukia wrote:I don't get two things in this thread
A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did
B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame
...so a new codex comes out, its different than the old one, provides new challenges, and gives old lists that were successful a real headache... and this is bad?!!
COME ON!! Strap on the thinking cap and your balls and figure out a way to beat it. If your list was beaten by his list rather than his tactics... maybe your favorite little army needs to evolve a little now.
Once I read through the GK codex, understood it as well (if not better) than my opponents, and I didn't have to ask what did what... they fell into the SM level of codex (solid, but very beatable). I hate to say it... but if your losing to a new dex when it comes out, that's good for the hobby (otherwise, why bother having new codices). If you're still losing to a new codex 6 months after its come out... its not the codex any more, its you and your sad little outdated army list.
To clarify, my GK experience was a week after the codex came out, against a player who wouldn't let me read it.
Now see, to me thats a cheat right there, even if the guy was being on the up and up. You should never, not be allowed to see a codex and how a rule/unit works. Ive asked people to show me a couple times, because sometimes rules just sound fishy. Perfect example is the ATSKNF rule. To a xenos player, that sounds at first, like a completely made up rule
Lobukia wrote:I don't get two things in this thread
A) how the OP was able to handle the neanderthal tribe as well as he did
i'm an old member of the club (as is he), i'm used to some of the idiots there complaining endlessly, and honestly i have better things to do, i enjoy my hobby, why rise to the bait and let them ruin it. The guy is now well aware that if his hostile behaviour carries on he's gonna get more than a casual "get lost"
B) why no one likes a challenge in a tactical table top wargame
This. i'll regularly test tourney lists in friendly games, and i'll freely admit i take the gaming side of the hobby as preference to the painting/modelling side. But i think most consderate gamers (lets be honest the win-at-all-costers, and the arrogant poor playing cheese shouters are in the minority, just draw the most attention) recognise when someone if playing a fluffy list, or playing something silly for giggles, and adapt their own list/playing style to accommodate, ofc when the tournaments come the gloves come off. i wouldn't play this game if it wasn't challenging (i guess some may argue this hence the rise in popularity for warmachine).
Also some are asking wether this guy is 12yrs or something, he is in his late 50's, just had his hip replacement and should know better.
Kinsella wrote:
Also some are asking wether this guy is 12yrs or something, he is in his late 50's, just had his hip replacement and should know better.
Classy. There's only one just response to such buffoonery.
Joking aside, you behaved in the most restrained manner possible under the circumstances, as did your DE friend. Maybe you should buy your critic a ball gag?
I'd be lying if I said I'm immune to a bit of Ward hating from time to time but ultimately its a game. If I turn up and my opponent has a tricked out Tournie juggernaught and I've thought it would be fun to give my Rough Riders and Ratlings a day out, I'm not going to call cheese and take my toys home in a sulk. I'll probably get beaten but hey, last time I checked its mainly about having fun.
Also I have an uncanny ability to beat hardcore lists by using my fluff armies in the most inappropriate manner to the opponent's confusion and steadily increasing rage. But that's neither here nor there.
I think the only thing that is true cheese, but completely unforseen by GW are the Runes of Warding. 15pts to completely neuter almost every race's abilities. Mephiston isn't so scary when he can't fly any more.
Ofc the main victim of runes of warding are GK . . . so I suppose they kinda deserve that from Eldar.
On a side not, I feel that Eldar's guide should re-roll to hit in CC as well.
There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.
I don't really find many cheesey units in this game since there are tactics to get around the tough stuff. You notice people aren't scared of nob bikers or TWC anymore?
Not really, 4+ poison is basically just S4 against T4, which means it's about as scary as bolters are. Compare that with an army that can take upgrades to go on I6 and that has basic weapons with the ability to glance a vehicle (and penetrate if you have an upgrade), it's easy to understand why DE vs GK feels like having the deck stacked against the DE player.
I have a feeling that people always will struggle against the new codex's especially ones where the lists are different in some way or another just because they arnt used to playing the new codex its a case of finding ways to beat an army rather than simply calling cheese.
DarknessEternal wrote:And game balance is not related to how fun or popular games are.
Game balance does relate to fun when the game is meant to be open to the player's choices and abilities, yet there are a few top tier armies that are just better.
While at GW and sitting with a friend talking a small idiotic kid came over and asked;
"Are you the guys who plays Chaos? "
I answered Chaos Daemons and Chaos marines and he went onto say that Chaos Daemons are so ultra over powered without providing any real aurgument exept that they have 'unfair armour saves'. I told him he was a twit and quite stupid for approaching people only to start arguments and told him to shout at his friends who are only inches away from each other.
lol If this is 7th ed fantasy it'd be true, but wow
On the subject matter, after playing all the supposedly more balanced game like warmachine and FoW, I find that they are not really that much better than 40K.
It annoys more when the players of the said game get all high and mighty about how their game of toy soldier is more better than yours.
Guess its people like that makes me not want to play Warmachine, well, that and the ridiculous 80 bucks bane thralls.
blood reaper wrote:While at GW and sitting with a friend talking a small idiotic kid came over and asked;
"Are you the guys who plays Chaos? "
I answered Chaos Daemons and Chaos marines and he went onto say that Chaos Daemons are so ultra over powered without providing any real aurgument exept that they have 'unfair armour saves'. I told him he was a twit and quite stupid for approaching people only to start arguments and told him to shout at his friends who are only inches away from each other.
Did he say why their armour saves were unfair, or was it just 'only Ultramarines can have a 3+'?
No, but he does play Sphees marhens and I told him if Daemons where overpowered then marines where, he's one of the kids who have tons of Space Marine models and play massive battles where they pile their own models on each side of the table and scream at each other when one decides the other cheated.
The ravening hordes... Well, not much you can do but ignore him. Or point out the reasons why Chaos being OP would mean the majority of other armies are gods descended to fight mortals.
Durza wrote:The ravening hordes... Well, not much you can do but ignore him. Or point out the reasons why Chaos being OP would mean the majority of other armies are gods descended to fight mortals.
Yes, if Chaos Daemons where overpowered then Space Marines are Space Gods with ultra super awesome powers granted by their amazing overlord Mat Ward.
ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.
I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...
ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.
I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...
Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.
ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.
I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...
Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.
i assume the IC(with a jump pack or wings or even with a bike) leaves the unit in question moves his 12" in front of the unit than joins the unit again at the end of the movement phase since there is no restriction about when to leave units for IC s. But this will only get you 2"+the base size of the IC as a bonus since you actually have to have coherency
ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.
I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...
Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.
i assume the IC(with a jump pack or wings or even with a bike) leaves the unit in question moves his 12" in front of the unit than joins the unit again at the end of the movement phase since there is no restriction about when to leave units for IC s. But this will only get you 2"+the base size of the IC as a bonus since you actually have to have coherency
...I don't think it works like that.
I'm pretty sure you can't leave and join in the same unit in the same turn.
I'm one of those people who'll tell you that 90% of the game is strategy, that the better player, or the one who makes the least mistakes, will win the vast majority of the time, regardless of codex, army list, or dice. I'm also one of those people who'll tell you that GK are grotesquely overpowered. The problem, and what so many people seem to overlook, is that they don't actually PAY for the abilities they receive. A standard MEQ will run you around 16pts. A power weapon; another 15. A storm bolter about 5. Upgrade said MEQ to a psyker, and we can probably tack on another 5pts. Add a second psychic power, maybe a point or two. Grant said psyker the ability to activate its force weapon at one time with the rest of its unit, making only one perils of the warp test, maybe another 2 or 3. A grand total of 39-41pts. How a GK strike squad model costs only twenty is beyond me. A discount is in order, obviously, considering that these upgrades are non-optional, so let's call 35pts a fair price. I'm fully aware of the fact that every codex has access to very (even unfairly) cost efficient models. This alone WOULD balance out the example I've just given, but no other codex I've seen runs an entire army of vastly under-priced units.
Most of the balancing factors that people attribute to the GK Codex are ones that apply specifically to lists that are either poorly built, or to an issue of neglect or play style choice. I've heard people claim That GK lacks long-range fire support. They actually have access to what might be, arguably, the single best long-range fire support unit in the game. VenDread Psyflenauts. I've heard people claim that GK doesn't have access to a lot of tank-busting units. Honestly, the codex gives you access to some of the cheapest, most efficient tank busting gear I've yet to see, albeit a short-range one. If you're not running a 25pt Inquisitor as a second HQ choice with an eleven-man melta-gun wielding warrior acolyte squad in a twelve capacity armor 12 transport with six fire points at 55pts, then you have no one to blame but yourself for a lack of tank-cracking units. (I'm pretty sure with servitors, you can run 3 MMs and 3 meltaguns. With I don't know, maybe eight meltabombs? Correct me if I'm wrong) Not to say that it's always the RIGHT choice, just that it IS a choice.
I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.
My point is this: if at any point, my opponent is running close to 750 more points (or more) of upgrades than I am, without actually having to PAY for them, there's a balancing factor issue there. I wouldn't play a game at 2000pts vs. 2750pts without getting a little snarky. Nor would I play a game of Space Wolves VS. Space Wolves where I have to buy my missile launchers and my opponent doesn't. And if I was about to sit down for a game with a buddy and this conversation happens, I'd crap my underwear:
"Hey, do you mind if I give my entire sternguard squad a power weapon?"
"Umm...I guess not. What do they cost?"
"About 15pts. each."
"Well, yeah, sure, okay. Just pay 150pts and we'll say your whole squad has power weapons. No biggie."
"Well, no I wasn't actually going to pay for them. Can't I just take them?"
"No."
"Matt Ward says I can, so F%^$ you."
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH, but yeah, those guys were jerks. Jerky cheese-callers.
Magpiesouth wrote:I'm one of those people who'll tell you that 90% of the game is strategy, that the better player, or the one who makes the least mistakes, will win the vast majority of the time, regardless of codex, army list, or dice. I'm also one of those people who'll tell you that GK are grotesquely overpowered. The problem, and what so many people seem to overlook, is that they don't actually PAY for the abilities they receive. A standard MEQ will run you around 16pts. A power weapon; another 15. A storm bolter about 5. Upgrade said MEQ to a psyker, and we can probably tack on another 5pts. Add a second psychic power, maybe a point or two. Grant said psyker the ability to activate its force weapon at one time with the rest of its unit, making only one perils of the warp test, maybe another 2 or 3. A grand total of 39-41pts. How a GK strike squad model costs only twenty is beyond me. A discount is in order, obviously, considering that these upgrades are non-optional, so let's call 35pts a fair price. I'm fully aware of the fact that every codex has access to very (even unfairly) cost efficient models. This alone WOULD balance out the example I've just given, but no other codex I've seen runs an entire army of vastly under-priced units.
Most of the balancing factors that people attribute to the GK Codex are ones that apply specifically to lists that are either poorly built, or to an issue of neglect or play style choice. I've heard people claim That GK lacks long-range fire support. They actually have access to what might be, arguably, the single best long-range fire support unit in the game. VenDread Psyflenauts. I've heard people claim that GK doesn't have access to a lot of tank-busting units. Honestly, the codex gives you access to some of the cheapest, most efficient tank busting gear I've yet to see, albeit a short-range one. If you're not running a 25pt Inquisitor as a second HQ choice with an eleven-man melta-gun wielding warrior acolyte squad in a twelve capacity armor 12 transport with six fire points at 55pts, then you have no one to blame but yourself for a lack of tank-cracking units. (I'm pretty sure with servitors, you can run 3 MMs and 3 meltaguns. With I don't know, maybe eight meltabombs? Correct me if I'm wrong) Not to say that it's always the RIGHT choice, just that it IS a choice.
I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.
My point is this: if at any point, my opponent is running close to 750 more points (or more) of upgrades than I am, without actually having to PAY for them, there's a balancing factor issue there. I wouldn't play a game at 2000pts vs. 2750pts without getting a little snarky. Nor would I play a game of Space Wolves VS. Space Wolves where I have to buy my missile launchers and my opponent doesn't. And if I was about to sit down for a game with a buddy and this conversation happens, I'd crap my underwear:
"Hey, do you mind if I give my entire sternguard squad a power weapon?"
"Umm...I guess not. What do they cost?"
"About 15pts. each."
"Well, yeah, sure, okay. Just pay 150pts and we'll say your whole squad has power weapons. No biggie."
"Well, no I wasn't actually going to pay for them. Can't I just take them?"
"No."
"Matt Ward says I can, so F%^$ you."
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH, but yeah, those guys were jerks. Jerky cheese-callers.
funny to actually read something like this. so i assume the regular MEQ shouldnt be able to take any predators, vindicators ,whirlwinds and even drop pods or lets take the chimera out of IG .
I admit that the new gk is overpowered when you face it vs a single marine to marine basis. But you shouldnt expect people to clap your logic with the idea of inquistorial henchmen melta spam which always has the problem of getting across the table or all those psychic powers are simply nullified by a librarian on the opposite side.
Note: I am not here to say the GK isn't overpowered i even have a list of 16 psycannons in a 1500 point army ready to go. But please don't compare one unit vs one unit. Unless its land raiders or sth since i agree on fortitude being complete bs. Really 5 points and you ignore all 1 and 2 s in dmg table? (assuming there is no psychic hood or eldar on the other side)
Didn't mean to compare single units. I meant to point out that the existence of those units means that the codex as a whole is not lacking in what said units do.
well it certainly felt like when you made a grey knight worth 40 points...
and even when you compare 2k vs 2750 it comes up from single unit comparisons like gk and meltaguns
and can you open this sentence "I meant to point out that the existence of those units means that the codex as a whole is not lacking in what said units do." I honestly don't think i understand it well. There is no troll intended
Magpiesouth wrote:
I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.
Really you don't. Shouldn't better strategy, tactics, and forethought be the ONLY reason someone win so called "tactical" game. It funny how the Necron player at my LGS never lost with them. Even vs. netlist (sure the netlisters are 15 years old or less), but if the amry of the month is so overpowered how could this be.
P.S. So my point isn't missed. Don't blame the codex, Change your game up.
ivangterrace wrote:There are not that many cheesey things in this game. The only time I find things cheesey is when using weird rules (or lack of) to pull off maneuvers like the "sling-shot" which is where some jump pack ICs will move forward in something like a terminator squad and give that termi squad extra movement.
I've never heard of this before. Please elaborate...
Yeah, I think your opponent may have been cheating there.
i assume the IC(with a jump pack or wings or even with a bike) leaves the unit in question moves his 12" in front of the unit than joins the unit again at the end of the movement phase since there is no restriction about when to leave units for IC s. But this will only get you 2"+the base size of the IC as a bonus since you actually have to have coherency
It doesn't work like that. You can only leave or join a unit at the end of the movement phase.
pizzaguardian wrote: you can only join a unit at the end of the movement phase yes , but it doesn't prevent it from leaving the unit whenever he wants.
But he can't do both. It's leave or join, not leave and join
My understanding of the slingshot tactic was that you leave one unit, and join the unit you want to increase the assault distance of at the front, after it has moved. In this way, as you are leaving/joining two separate units, you do not violate the rules (I think...)
Magpiesouth wrote:
I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.
These are the EXACT reasons why a player should win. Always. If you're losing in spite of these, then something has gone wrong.
My point is this: if at any point, my opponent is running close to 750 more points (or more) of upgrades than I am, without actually having to PAY for them, there's a balancing factor issue there. I wouldn't play a game at 2000pts vs. 2750pts without getting a little snarky.
"No fair, your Fire Dragons should be at least 25 points each, because a IG Vet with Melta gun and carapace is 20 a piece. Plus you get better leadership and improved weapon skill. AND A MELTA BOMB! This game sucks cuz MAT WARD"
Joey wrote:The kind of people who play warhammer are not known for their social skills. Whether or not Grey Knights are cheese is irrelavent, they should have the good grace to be polite.
This to the Nth power.
At least your buddy was acting like a normal person, just let those others go pound sand.
Magpiesouth wrote:
I don't disagree that a player CAN still win with better strategy, tactics, and forethought, I'm only saying that he shouldn't HAVE to. Sounds petty, but it's also very true.
These are the EXACT reasons why a player should win. Always. If you're losing in spite of these, then something has gone wrong.
My point is this: if at any point, my opponent is running close to 750 more points (or more) of upgrades than I am, without actually having to PAY for them, there's a balancing factor issue there. I wouldn't play a game at 2000pts vs. 2750pts without getting a little snarky.
"No fair, your Fire Dragons should be at least 25 points each, because a IG Vet with Melta gun and carapace is 20 a piece. Plus you get better leadership and improved weapon skill. AND A MELTA BOMB! This game sucks cuz MAT WARD"
1. "... then something has gone wrong" - That's what magpiesouth is saying, sounds like you're agreeing with him.
2. "... cuz MAT WARD" Why is it so hard for people to accept that grey knights are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more.
There's validity to the point that compared especially to other space marine chapters, the Grey Knights are, point for point, far more cost effective.
It doesn't mean that the game is broken, or that grey knights win every time, but they enter the race with a head start.
Yes, you still need to build intelligent lists, and not play like an idiot, grey knights don't just auto-win, and while Magpiesouth may have been exaggerating for emphasis, you're just being a troll.
It's undercosted, because for anything other than the Imperium to field units with the abilities and upgrades of the Knights, it would cost at least one and a half times more.
junk wrote:
1. "... then something has gone wrong" - That's what magpiesouth is saying, sounds like you're agreeing with him.
Rereading it, I do not believe so. He is saying that you shouldn't have to have better strategy, tactics, and forethought to win, but it's possible to win if you do. I'm saying that the exact and only reason why a person SHOULD win a 'tactical wargame' is by virtue of having better strategy, tactics, and forethought.
2. "... cuz MAT WARD" Why is it so hard for people to accept that grey knights are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more.
There's validity to the point that compared especially to other space marine chapters, the Grey Knights are, point for point, far more cost effective.
It doesn't mean that the game is broken, or that grey knights win every time, but they enter the race with a head start.
Yes, you still need to build intelligent lists, and not play like an idiot, grey knights don't just auto-win, and while Magpiesouth may have been exaggerating for emphasis, you're just being a troll.
Absolutely... but on the other hand:
"Why is it so hard for people to accept that fire dragons are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more."
I was going to come up with a long mathhammered evaluation of opportunity cost in not getting plasma/melta like all the other marines do and discuss the 16% chance of having AP2 vs the guaranteed of the aforementioned guns, not to mention the losing out on standard heavy weapons such as missile launchers and lascannons. I was also going to point out the pitfalls of comparing units in a vacuum since the point of my initial Fire Dragon comparison was missed, but I'm off work in 4 minutes. Besides, apparently I'm just trolling, apparently.
junk wrote:
1. "... then something has gone wrong" - That's what magpiesouth is saying, sounds like you're agreeing with him.
Rereading it, I do not believe so. He is saying that you shouldn't have to have better strategy, tactics, and forethought to win, but it's possible to win if you do. I'm saying that the exact and only reason why a person SHOULD win a 'tactical wargame' is by virtue of having better strategy, tactics, and forethought.
2. "... cuz MAT WARD" Why is it so hard for people to accept that grey knights are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more.
There's validity to the point that compared especially to other space marine chapters, the Grey Knights are, point for point, far more cost effective.
It doesn't mean that the game is broken, or that grey knights win every time, but they enter the race with a head start.
Yes, you still need to build intelligent lists, and not play like an idiot, grey knights don't just auto-win, and while Magpiesouth may have been exaggerating for emphasis, you're just being a troll.
Absolutely... but on the other hand:
"Why is it so hard for people to accept that fire dragons are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more."
I was going to come up with a long mathhammered evaluation of opportunity cost in not getting plasma/melta like all the other marines do and discuss the 16% chance of having AP2 vs the guaranteed of the aforementioned guns, not to mention the losing out on standard heavy weapons such as missile launchers and lascannons. I was also going to point out the pitfalls of comparing units in a vacuum since the point of my initial Fire Dragon comparison was missed, but I'm off work in 4 minutes. Besides, apparently I'm just trolling, apparently.
Of course you are trolling since saying anything remotely close to "GK is not undercosted" as people say ,is obviously an attempt to troll the dakka community.
Except for the psyfleman dreadnoughts the GK effective range in shooting is below 24 " which is why a sm or guard gun line blasts me apart from the table edge and the only way i beat my tau friend is to distract him with a terminator squad until i get close.
Everybody seems to miss that point here. GK suck at long range shooting
junk wrote:
2. "... cuz MAT WARD" Why is it so hard for people to accept that grey knights are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more.
Why is it so hard for some people to accept that Codex unit cost are balance for there Codex chooses not by what the other Armys Codex price there stuff. Long Fang are better then SW Trems, guess what Trems are cheaper for them.
I cried cheese when i faced diversified Tau battlesuits. Then they died to earthshaker shells and i stood there stunned. I then cried cheese when my marine opponent (with a beautifuly painted army) wanted to introduce the Cestus Assault Ramp. I was intimidated. I still am. BUT he bought, assembled (no mean feat that) and painted a nice model so by all means i gave myself the opportunity to see how it died. You know what? It did (to carapaced Veterans with meltas shotguns and a PF). It isn't cheese if it dies to two meltas that's what i say. Now Eldar are frustrating... but in no way cheese
junk wrote:
1. "... then something has gone wrong" - That's what magpiesouth is saying, sounds like you're agreeing with him.
Rereading it, I do not believe so. He is saying that you shouldn't have to have better strategy, tactics, and forethought to win, but it's possible to win if you do. I'm saying that the exact and only reason why a person SHOULD win a 'tactical wargame' is by virtue of having better strategy, tactics, and forethought.
2. "... cuz MAT WARD" Why is it so hard for people to accept that grey knights are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more.
There's validity to the point that compared especially to other space marine chapters, the Grey Knights are, point for point, far more cost effective.
It doesn't mean that the game is broken, or that grey knights win every time, but they enter the race with a head start.
Yes, you still need to build intelligent lists, and not play like an idiot, grey knights don't just auto-win, and while Magpiesouth may have been exaggerating for emphasis, you're just being a troll.
Absolutely... but on the other hand:
"Why is it so hard for people to accept that fire dragons are undercosted? Their suite of abilities, using any other codex as a basis of comparison, should cost more."
I was going to come up with a long mathhammered evaluation of opportunity cost in not getting plasma/melta like all the other marines do and discuss the 16% chance of having AP2 vs the guaranteed of the aforementioned guns, not to mention the losing out on standard heavy weapons such as missile launchers and lascannons. I was also going to point out the pitfalls of comparing units in a vacuum since the point of my initial Fire Dragon comparison was missed, but I'm off work in 4 minutes. Besides, apparently I'm just trolling, apparently.
Trolling, as in, comparing what magpiesouth said to "this game sucks cuz MAT WARD", was just mocking. Not saying that you don't raise fair points, but theres no need to imply that the person that you're arguing with is a crybaby.
Also, I love the grey knights codex; I'm a fan of GK, of the fluff, the feel of the army, the way that it plays. I run a 2,500 point Draigowing and a 5000 point list called "nobody expects the flying inquisition", and PGK at nearly every point cost; but I can't help the feeling when I'm playing that I have a distinct advantage, sometimes I pull out one of my other armies only because i want my opponents to have a chance, or specifically so I don't have to listen to people calling BS on my army. But more importantly, I'll be three turns into a game with a draigo wing and I'll be down maybe 1 or 2 models, while my opponent is down like 3 or 4 full units, and I have to think to myself, I'm not this good. Sure I get a good square fight against super tight space wolves netlists, shadow-spamming nids handled by excellent players; but on the average, when I put GK on the table, I feel like I can only lose if I get awful dice or make some colossal mistakes. It's not 'GK are so unfair because they beat me' it's 'this seems too easy'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and to the GK suck at long range shooting thing, we have razorbacks, dreadnoughts in 2 different force org spots, access to landraiders, we can stick lascannons on stormravens with power of the machine spirit, inquisitorial henchmen with a variety of armaments, and deep striking multi-wound wound terminators that can drop 16 str 7 rending shots into anything, and if we so choose, mastercraft their guns, and that's not even the best thing about them.
I love Paladins, I even keep a paladin in my sig. I'd be furious if someone came along and changed the codex and took my paladins away, but the fact that this topic even exists is kind of a testament to how good the GK codex is, compared to other codexes or not.
junk wrote:
Trolling, as in, comparing what magpiesouth said to "this game sucks cuz MAT WARD", was just mocking. Not saying that you don't raise fair points, but theres no need to imply that the person that you're arguing with is a crybaby.
Perhaps I did come off a little too snide, but any time Ward is brought up, I have a hard time resisting looking at their argument with complete skepticism. Argument from Mat Ward comes up so often that I'm considering adding it to the Wikipedia list of common logical fallacies. There have been plenty of cheesy face dominating armies that weren't written by him.
Also, I love the grey knights codex; I'm a fan of GK, of the fluff, the feel of the army, the way that it plays. I run a 2,500 point Draigowing and a 5000 point list called "nobody expects the flying inquisition", and PGK at nearly every point cost; but I can't help the feeling when I'm playing that I have a distinct advantage, sometimes I pull out one of my other armies only because i want my opponents to have a chance, or specifically so I don't have to listen to people calling BS on my army. But more importantly, I'll be three turns into a game with a draigo wing and I'll be down maybe 1 or 2 models, while my opponent is down like 3 or 4 full units, and I have to think to myself, I'm not this good. Sure I get a good square fight against super tight space wolves netlists, shadow-spamming nids handled by excellent players; but on the average, when I put GK on the table, I feel like I can only lose if I get awful dice or make some colossal mistakes. It's not 'GK are so unfair because they beat me' it's 'this seems too easy'.
I feel the need to call into question the skill of your opponents then, or perhaps I'm actually a lot worse at the game than I give myself credit for. I haven't yet tried Draigowing. It could well be one of the power builds though. I've won more games than I've lost with GK, but I honestly don't think I've won more games that I feel I should have. And the ones I've lost I've lost HARD. Like, damn near got myself tabled hard. Maybe it's the list carrying me, and I'm too arrogant to tell the difference. I've even played a few games against GK as different armies, 'Nids included, and won those games too though. It's just from where I sit, I don't see cheese. I see an army that has the advantage of not everyone having had the time to get experienced enough with it to actually be prepared to deal with the weird builds (like all paladins) that the codex can offer.
Oh, and to the GK suck at long range shooting thing, we have razorbacks, dreadnoughts in 2 different force org spots, access to landraiders, we can stick lascannons on stormravens with power of the machine spirit, inquisitorial henchmen with a variety of armaments, and deep striking multi-wound wound terminators that can drop 16 str 7 rending shots into anything, and if we so choose, mastercraft their guns, and that's not even the best thing about them.
Other than the Razorback and the heavy slot Dread, you pay for it though. Razorback's the only one you can get as a dedicated transport, and so unless you're spamming MSU to maximize razorbacks (which has it's own problems) or saving all of your FOC slots for dreadnoughts, you can only have maybe two of those other options in a 1500-2000 point list due to cost. Henchmen are an option, but they're an expensive and bad BS option. 35 points for a Jokearo isn't really such a great deal, especially when you need an Inquisitor to unlock it. And you have to have a special character to get more than one squad of them, so even if you have a monkeyspam squad, you're still only shooting at one thing a round. Also, food for thought, but I believe 35 points is the rough point cost of a single IGHW Squad model with lascannon.
Finally, concerning the paladins' psycannons, you're looking at a (roughly) 730 point unit by that point. Isn't a Warhound Titan only 750?
I love Paladins, I even keep a paladin in my sig. I'd be furious if someone came along and changed the codex and took my paladins away, but the fact that this topic even exists is kind of a testament to how good the GK codex is, compared to other codexes or not.
This topic exists every time a new army comes out though. Well, at least, a new Space Marine army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, can someone break down the point cost of the aforementioned Fire Dragon without it being cheaper than the IG Vet with Melta?
Yep. Those claiming it costs 15 points to give someone a power weapon obviously arent aware of Banshees or Incubi. They dont pay 15 points for their weapons, so they must be undercosted!!!!?!?!?
Utter tosh to come up with 35 - 40 points for each strike squad. Complete and utter rubbish.
Daedalus - try coteaz + 5 x 3man squads with 1 x DCA unit, some meltas if you can afford it, in psy-HB razorbacks, 3 x riflemen and 3 x 5 man purifiers also in razorbacks. The amount of dakka this puts out is crazy
I wouldn't go so far as to say complete and utter rubbish concerning a 35-40pt cost per model on your strike squad. To be fair, I'm not including the standard reduction for non-optional upgrades there. But to call 'utter tosh' is a bit silly. It's just math. A standard MEQ is roughly 16 pts. A power weapon is 15. That makes 31 pts. They have two psychic powers. Give a point or two per model? Let's call it 32pts. Storm bolters, or it's statline equivalent, will run you 3-10pts from pretty much any codex. Let's call it 5pts. We're up to 37 point models so far. The entire squad's power weapons are force weapons that function better than standard force weapons in that only one psychic test is required to activate them all. Let's call that 1pt per model. That makes a 38pt model. Let's factor in an arbitrary point cost reduction, say 5pts. That makes a strike squad model 33pts, for which you only need pay 20, and I'm being generous. Now, I don't know anything about Banshees, Incubi, or fire dragons, but let's try and remember that on average, a non-MEQ is significantly cheaper. A power weapon on a 3-statline model WILL cost much less than a 15pt average. A unit with a strength 3 and 5+ save can afford to be given a power weapon for practically nothing. That being said, I'm not sure why listing those examples is such a hard point. Maybe they are under-priced. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that they are. So I suppose we all agree, then. There are a lot of under-priced models floating around. I now reiterate. Again. The problem is not single models. I am not trying to compare single examples of GK models to single examples from other codexes. My point, again, is that the entire codex is filled with incredibly cost-effective, under-priced models. That, to me at least, is broken. Any GK army list versus any other army list has a huge point advantage in upgrades. I've seen and heard of them losing plenty of times. In fact, even if they lost every single game they ever played, even with a one hundred percent loss record, that would not change the fact that they get a lot of really good crap for free, and therefore have an advantage to start. My point is not that they are unbeatable, nor that they have 'cheesy' powers or abilities, because frankly, they don't. Not anymore than any other codex, at least. Sanctuary and the like are awesome, very strong tactical abilities. But so is the C:SM ability to assault first turn with everything. Or to drop 30 meltaguns without chance of mishap behind your lines first turn. None of these things break the game. My point, (one more time) is that they have a huge point advantage in free upgrades. Not broken cheesy stuff, which seems to be the running argument. My concern is that everyone seems to be missing the point that free upgrades all over the place equals point advantage from the start. Show me a power that hits every unit in your opponent's army, on the board or not, with D6 STR10 AP1 hits that costs you 2,000pts to field and I won't complain. It seems about fair for 2k. A really good force weapon for free, however, is not.
Magpiesouth wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say complete and utter rubbish concerning a 35-40pt cost per model on your strike squad. To be fair, I'm not including the standard reduction for non-optional upgrades there. But to call 'utter tosh' is a bit silly. It's just math. A standard MEQ is roughly 16 pts. A power weapon is 15. That makes 31 pts. They have two psychic powers. Give a point or two per model? Let's call it 32pts. Storm bolters, or it's statline equivalent, will run you 3-10pts from pretty much any codex. Let's call it 5pts. We're up to 37 point models so far. The entire squad's power weapons are force weapons that function better than standard force weapons in that only one psychic test is required to activate them all. Let's call that 1pt per model. That makes a 38pt model. Let's factor in an arbitrary point cost reduction, say 5pts. That makes a strike squad model 33pts, for which you only need pay 20, and I'm being generous.
Terminators have power weapons, storm bolters, improved leadership, and an extra attack, all at 40 points by default. You're saying that your strike squad guy is really worth being only 7 points cheaper than a terminator? And you're being generous.... Do you think that GK terminators should be 55 points? How does that balance with the fact that they can't take storm shields at ANY cost, let alone for free like a lot of other terminators can? How expensive should paladins be? Also, I think people VASTLY overrate force weapons over power weapons. Many times I never end up in a situation where I need to bother activating them. Most of the time there's just too much psychic protection. The rest of the time, there's just not any multiwound models worth hitting with it.
A power weapon on a 3-statline model WILL cost much less than a 15pt average. A unit with a strength 3 and 5+ save can afford to be given a power weapon for practically nothing.
Infantry Squad Sergeant, IG, 15 points with power weapon. Commissar with power weapon, 45 points.
That being said, I'm not sure why listing those examples is such a hard point. Maybe they are under-priced. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that they are. So I suppose we all agree, then. There are a lot of under-priced models floating around. I now reiterate. Again. The problem is not single models.
But your argument was centered around the Tac marine vs GKSS breakdown.
I am not trying to compare single examples of GK models to single examples from other codexes. My point, again, is that the entire codex is filled with incredibly cost-effective, under-priced models. That, to me at least, is broken. Any GK army list versus any other army list has a huge point advantage in upgrades.
Like what? Fortitude at 5 points and Dreadnought psybolt ammo are the only ones I can really think of, but the dreads end up coming out 20 points more expensive than a Long Fangs squad. And while the long fangs might not be twin-linked, they can split fire, and in a lot of ways are more resilient. A single lucky lascannon shot isn't dropping the Long Fangs squad. As far as fortitude goes, well, I almost think I'd rather have fast vehicles in a lot of situations.
Magpiesouth , first of all never post everything in a single paragraph. It is boring and generally harder to read and you have several places that you can split them as paragraphs. And that whole paragraph starts with oooh GK s are so ridicolously undercosted qq into , but they are cool can we be friends? You are just throwing gas in a fire but leaving a fire brigade at the back if you get burned. As deadalus stated you are making this comparison from a regular MEQ vs GKSS which is just a wrong comparison to start with since that comparison will only work with a few units that have similar attributes like terminators and devastators.
To my post below thanks for pointing out my mistakes, i really should check my writing before i post. And i actually made a single criticism which is not my personal opinion but an all around thing as far as I know, if it sounded like a silly thing well i don't care since it wasn't meant for that. And writing style and grammar are different things i wholly accept that my typing skills are horrible when i dont go back and check every single thing that i wrote.
Regarding the content of your post, I believe that you were attempting to state that a 'regular' MEQ is not equivalent to a GKSS, and if this is the case I'm curious as to what you determine an MEQ to be. How are devastators more similar to terminators than MEQs are to GKSS? I always assumed that the GKSS was an MEQ. Regarding the grammar of your post, I don't think you're in any position to criticize someone else's writing style.
A regular MEQ is what you find under the space marines section in the games workshop site which is "http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat440176a&rootCatGameStyle=".
In this section every single marine in a tactical squad is not a psyker or have the potential for red thirst or a blood claw ....
For the devastators and terminators part i just didn't want to clog the post. I obviously meant devastators can be compared to purgators , and terminators to terminators.
"Terminators have power weapons, storm bolters, improved leadership, and an extra attack, all at 40 points by default. You're saying that your strike squad guy is really worth being only 7 points cheaper than a terminator?"
Yes. That is exactly was I was saying.
Considering a strike squad is similarly equipped, why not? They're not as resilient, but the abilities even out. Besides, your 100 troop squad is going to beat my 200pt elite a little more than half the time. And any one of those guys,even a single 20pt model, stands a solid chance of murdering my 175pt Pedro Kantor. Or my 275 point Tyranofex, which even the th/ss termie can't do. There really isn't much justification for that, or if you can think of one, please let me know. I would love to hear why you think 20pts IS an appropriate cost as opposed to grumpy rhetorical questions.
And pizzaguardian: no extraneous indentations for you.
th/ss terminators can one shot pedro kantor.(str 8 toughness 4 - am i missing something here?)
or a single guardsman with a stray lascannon or a LRBT. There are alot of stuff which can instant kill a T4 character out there.
Magpiesouth wrote: Besides, your 100 troop squad is going to beat my 200pt elite a little more than half the time.
Terminators are twice as hard to kill as power armored strike marines. They also get half as many shots. Neither wants to be in assault with the other.
If every codex had everything valued at the same across the board, what do you have? Some armies are better at things, so they should get those things cheaper, some are worse, some are limited by FOC selections, some are limited by scoring unit...
Voids are a terrifically bad place to compare things that work in concert with others to accomplish their purpose.
I to am under the assumtion that GK is undercosted as a Codex, rather then overpowered.
Force Weapons, Great grenades, and psychic powers across the army are rough, then throw in psi bolt ammo, and Fortitude, ontop of things like quicksilver or sanctuary and things get pretty mean.
As for "Fire dragons and Banshee's being undercosted" i wont buy that. Sure they can murder a unit of marines if the stars and sky align just right and the astral signs are in good moods. But really? in a good fight, banshees will hit on 4's and wound on 5's so a unit of 10 MAY kill 2 marines. MAYBE. then the marines hit back hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's. There goes most the squad (im not throwin in farseer's or doom on the banshee' unit cause they dont come with that basic, where as a unit of strike squad DOES come with hammerhand) As for firedragons having a unit of melta. Yeah its really nasty for a 12 inch range shot that will slag pretty much everything that moves in this game. And the unti is very cheap for what it does....but the second they come out, they die pretty much right after. Heck most of them die in the blast radius of what they just slagged! (always happens to me anyhow) So i dont think they are undercosted because they are still only S3, T3 with a 4+ up save. Easy as heck to burn out.
Grey knights are highly survivable even without stormshields, (Shrouding anyone? 3+ coversave stormravens or paladins?) And they all have MUTLIPLE special abilites, not just like "prefered vs daemons" they all have special grenades, prefered vs daemons, force weapons, psychic abilites, and can come equiped differently with unique weapons that are really well. Not to mention they can all have Str5 stormbolters. (at a cost but seriously....str 5 stormbolters are awesome)
The downfall to the GKs isnt nearly as much as their benifits. No stormshields, not as many attacks vs SW/BA/BT/Other assualt books.....and thats about it.
Their shooting is top notch btw, Psifulman dreadnaughts, regardless of Venerable or not are HARD to put down, you cannot hope to just shake them like other armies, as they can just use fortitude to shoot you up again...with Str8 shots. Psycannons are also great. and Str5 stormbolters destroy at ranged wars. (granted you have to be 24 inchs from something but still...not unlikely to happen alot) and yes stormbolters will only do something to a vehicle if its generally in rear armour, but again thats what the psycannons are for.
there is more, but it just feels most the time to me when i fight grey knights im in an uphill battle no matter what codex i bring, (dark eldar, Eldar, or Daemons) Eldar is probably my strongest dex vs them just because of stones of warding. but its still always feels in at a base disadvantage
Well I was called a cheese for the first time at a tourney against a Necron Player. My BA list was not competitive at all, but he kept on complaining away and not wanting to play against me because he had no chance. I had enough with his complaints and curbed stomped his crons and made them phase out in a capture and control game. He cursed and called my army cheese some more, peged my sportsmanship score (which didn't matter couldn't place since I lost against two good Tau players), and left angerly. Worst game I have ever played, this 20ish year old man acted like he was 12 thoughout the entire game. But itended ended well because the store manager saw me crush him and gave a box of chaos warriors.
junk wrote:Trolling, as in, comparing what magpiesouth said to "this game sucks cuz MAT WARD", was just mocking. Not saying that you don't raise fair points, but theres no need to imply that the person that you're arguing with is a crybaby.
Also, I love the grey knights codex; I'm a fan of GK, of the fluff, the feel of the army, the way that it plays.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:"CHEESE!" Is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
Going in my Sig
oh but on the OP Those guys were the donkey caves, you were playing a tournament? If it was a friendly game then I wouldnt care, but a tournament, i would have cussed them out like a marine sargent. Im 13.
junk wrote:Trolling, as in, comparing what magpiesouth said to "this game sucks cuz MAT WARD", was just mocking. Not saying that you don't raise fair points, but theres no need to imply that the person that you're arguing with is a crybaby.
Also, I love the grey knights codex; I'm a fan of GK, of the fluff, the feel of the army, the way that it plays.
Now who's trolling?
Don't tempt me, man, I'll crawl out from under this bridge and start regenerating all my hit points. Seriously, I'll stick you with my poisoned ring. I'll gobble up your billy goats. I'll pop a pink tuft of hair out the top of my head and headbang to Dovregubbenshall.
Grey Knights can be cheesyawesomesuper when looking at some units in isolation and in their favoured scenario (Purifiers using cleansing flame against a bunch of basic ork boyz and knowing that after cleansing flame, 10 halberds are going to swing down). But you can probably say the same for any codex.
Grey Knights weaknesses: Low model count. Lack of decent invul saves against ranged attacks. No storm shields on Terminators/Paladins. Generally short ranged - 24". Lack of ranged weaponry that has higher strength than 8. Lack of AP1/AP2 weaponry.
Now, there is the Henchmen side of the Codex that addresses some of these issues but then you're talking about far squishier troops as well. Overall, calling Grey Knights as a whole cheesy is a daft argument. The odd unit here and there is cheesy but the grey knights codex isn't the only one guilty of having those, and that's a fact.
dorks. Civility is truly dead.
Both sides play with the exact same thing.
