LunaHound wrote:The bottom torso looks abit different scale than the top.
Its like SM body with Eldar Guardian legs.
But its definitely quality sculpt, its what wargame factory should have done.
Its the angle of the shot and the large shoulder pads... look at this and you can see the difference. Shooting less than 1" from a model will distort the view.
Lower portion is still too feminine and stream lined.
They need some sort of plating on the leggings equivalent of the bulky shoulder plate upper torso has to " balance" the sculpt.
This is amazing, if the price point is good, I will be buying alot of these miniatures.
The level of detail is breath taking, and looks like this should be a miniatures line from a much larger company. I'm so happy to see this level of sculpting and execution in plastic as well (I assume?)
In fact, I wonder why another well known company hasn't managed to produce something like this? Style? Cost? or lack of talented sculpting staff?.....I wish I knew, whatever the reason, if these go to market and are as good as these prototypes, I will be replacing my IG troopers real so.
Wow...I was at first a bit worried since most of the 3d printed stuff out there by smaller companies seems to be rather crappy, but this is actually up to, if not better than, GW standard!
well i already donated/supported whatever its called for a platoon of Strumtruppen, and after the 15th will do so again for a platoon of Kreigsmarine, am really liking the way these are looking and will happily buy a whole lot more.
Thanks guys ! I am very happy with the prototypes. These will be released as metal minis. Plastic is out of my price range and resin is a biyatch to produce in quantity.
These are very clean models and I think it is a good project. Not something I could use for my army but it is a kickstarter which I hope grows more projects.
I've been steadily watching these guys develop and I really like the results. I just pledged for a squad of Strumtruppen, if they turn out well I will be buying much, much more.
You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).
Looking awesome. As soon as I have some spare $$ Ill be getting in on this. These are right up there with the Infinity models...more great work from Dreamforge.
poipo32 wrote:Those look ace.
Too bad they will produced in metal.
I despise multipart metal models.
So law of reversal?
monopart plastic=bad
multipart metal=bad
Single part plastic is bad because it generally looks like turd. Multipart metal is bad because you spend more time pinning and greenstuffing joints than you do having fun painting the model.
-Loki- wrote:Single part plastic is bad because it generally looks like turd
It is possible to make single-piece plastic models that look good, but it takes very clever sculpting, particularly on anything with a substantial amount of detail.
Multipart metal is bad because you spend more time pinning and greenstuffing joints than you do having fun painting the model.
That depends in large part on how the model fits together. In the case of GW's multi-part metals, I would largely agree with you... the joints tend to not fit together very well, and the models often need significant trimming, filing and pinning before they fit together properly.
I've had multi-part metals that didn't have that problem, though. If they're made through a competent mould-maker and caster, they don't necessarily have to be any harder to assemble than plastics.
chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).
How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?
Sure some others give you extra stuff like stickers, signed stuff or even limited edition stuff as a "thank you" but it has always been up to the artist/producer to determine what peeps get. What we as consumers and pledgers are responsible ofr is the amount we are willing to pledge, if anything at all.
Not as cheap as a box of Cadians (for non-Australians) but still Ok value for this type of Metal Mini.
-Loki- wrote:Single part plastic is bad because it generally looks like turd
It is possible to make single-piece plastic models that look good, but it takes very clever sculpting, particularly on anything with a substantial amount of detail.
Multipart metal is bad because you spend more time pinning and greenstuffing joints than you do having fun painting the model.
That depends in large part on how the model fits together. In the case of GW's multi-part metals, I would largely agree with you... the joints tend to not fit together very well, and the models often need significant trimming, filing and pinning before they fit together properly.
I've had multi-part metals that didn't have that problem, though. If they're made through a competent mould-maker and caster, they don't necessarily have to be any harder to assemble than plastics.
Spot on... I have some spun cast components from the Kriegsmarine in my hands right now. My Spincaster for this project is Fortress Figures, the same folks that do the MERCS minis. The areas that glue together are perfectly flat and smooth. Unlike traditional sculpting where they cut the components apart, these are 100% clean. If you pin these its because you want extra strength in case you drop it.
Dare I say, the joints are so clean that the supergule is all the filler you need... No green crud on these needed.
chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).
How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?
Its not supposed to be a promise to buy though. In fact most rewards are either done at cost/something near it or indirectly related to the project. Its evident by the fact that its called a 'reward' and not a 'return on investment'. I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder. Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed, but my altruism only goes so far when I'm lucky to have enough money to just get by) when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released? From an economics standpoint (time value of money), it actually would cost me MORE money to donate now and wait 3 months for the product than it would to just wait the 3 months (assuming the funding goal is met) and purchase it then. Why can't some of the rewards be limited run items? Hell, why can't it be a "Special Thanks to" on the box art? It doesn't have to be purely financial, I just don't like the idea of treating it as a preorder source and nothing else.
BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.
What beautiful miniatures! I am constantly amazed at what smaller companies like your own can produce when you put your mind to it! I think you should have no problem reaching your start up goal.
Liking all the new bits that I have not seen before like the command sprue and the scanner thingy, great work!
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder.
Of course you are. You're being promised a batch of minis from the first production run. You'll be one of the first people in the world to get your hands on these miniatures.
Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed...
Why indeed...
... when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released?
Have you seen the number of miniatures companies that come and go before you can say 'Make some female guard!'...? Supporting the kickstarter makes it easier for a company to get the project off the ground in the first place... which means a better chance they they will be developed and released. Sure, you can wait and hope for the best. Or, if the miniatures are something that you really want to see happen, you can support it in order to help ensure that the project goes ahead, and can wind up with the minis a little bit earlier as a result.
If that's not enough of an incentive for you, that's fine. You're under no obligation to support the project.
Offering rewards that are in excess of the donation being provided would be kind of counter-productive, given that the idea of the kickstarter is to provide funds to get the project started in the first place...
... when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released?
Have you seen the number of miniatures companies that come and go before you can say 'Make some female guard!'...? Supporting the kickstarter makes it easier for a company to get the project off the ground in the first place... which means a better chance they they will be developed and released. Sure, you can wait and hope for the best. Or, if the miniatures are something that you really want to see happen, you can support it in order to help ensure that the project goes ahead, and can wind up with the minis a little bit earlier as a result.
If that's not enough of an incentive for you, that's fine. You're under no obligation to support the project.
Offering rewards that are in excess of the donation being provided would be kind of counter-productive, given that the idea of the kickstarter is to provide funds to get the project started in the first place...
Well, the start-up phase is usually the most expensive one, as you need to actually buy the equipment, once you own the equipment, your need for funds to operate usually decreases drastically, so once you have gotten the money to make the initial investment, you should survive going in zero for a while. Also, people should be rewarded for taking the risk to pay money for something that might never exist.
Say you invest in something, you should expect to get more for your money if you invest in the very beginning than if you invest after the business is up and running because you have taken much more risk. This should be the same thing IMO, people giving money to this guy are taking a much larger risk than those that order once the business is up and running, and as such, they should (IMO) be rewarded for taking the risk.
I have donated some money to various Kickstarter projects. I gave the money because I wished the ventures to succeed I would get something out of project 'x' existence.
If I had the cash now I would pledge $50 or $100 or even more, the product looks to be great, if I got my hands on a box of figures before release so much the better. $50 is a hell of a lot cheaper than getting my own sculpts made or setting up my own company to make minis that I really like.
chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).
How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?
Its not supposed to be a promise to buy though. In fact most rewards are either done at cost/something near it or indirectly related to the project. Its evident by the fact that its called a 'reward' and not a 'return on investment'. I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder. Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed, but my altruism only goes so far when I'm lucky to have enough money to just get by) when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released? From an economics standpoint (time value of money), it actually would cost me MORE money to donate now and wait 3 months for the product than it would to just wait the 3 months (assuming the funding goal is met) and purchase it then. Why can't some of the rewards be limited run items? Hell, why can't it be a "Special Thanks to" on the box art? It doesn't have to be purely financial, I just don't like the idea of treating it as a preorder source and nothing else.
BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.
I think we have a difference of opinion on what Kickstarter is and is not. I would agree with you that it is not a pre-order venue, but it is not a wholesale discount-clearing house either.
Kickstarter is a social venture capital system used to get projects off the ground. They call them “rewards” because it has the ability for donors to receive copies or other incentives of the artists work. It also allows those who are so inclined, to donate beyond the reward level, say a $100.00 reward level but they choose to donate $150.00 because they believe in the project and would like to see it come to fruition. When you go to KQED or another public service station that is holding a funding drive, you are supporting the ability for that entity to continue brining you the products and services that you enjoy. Do they give you items commensurate with your donation? No… Here you are receiving items that match or exceed your donation. People who support the numerous movie and art projects are not receiving a dollar for dollar translation. They are helping the project producer make the project happen.
My project is to pull in $3000.00 to add to my $2000.00 and allow me to produce all the prototypes and molds needed for this product line. Will everything be in the black when all is said and done? I doubt it but I hope it would be. At the current costs and reward funding levels. We have the prototypes to pay for, the molds the miniatures and bases to fulfill the rewards, the credit card fees and the 5% Kickstarter fees. With $5000 invested I would need to sell 1497 miniatures (150 squads) to be in the black. Considering most miniatures sell about 400-600 units per year according to my spincaster, I would say that my prices are more than reasonable for what you receive. Will the MSRP be higher than the $5.00 you pay here? Yes. Most miniatures today are grouped in the $6.99 to $9.99 range. Why? Because they need to look at giving the brick and mortar stores a 40-50% discount while still paying for mold replacement costs (as I do). Do I know an exact retail right now? No. I need to see how close I am to being in the black when the project is complete.
I invite you to do a search for miniatures; you will see the other projects were charging more than I am for their completed rewards, in some cases $10.00 per mini.
Take Tom Mason’s project as an example, do you truly believe people would pay $10.00 a miniature without knowing that a good portion of that is simply to help Tom get some solid ground under his feet?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1470153821/effigy-miniatures-a-new-sci-fi-and-fantasy-miniatu?ref=live
I don’t expect to change your opinion on this, but since we keep coming back to it I felt I needed to state my case and allow you to decide if you would like to support this project or not.
NoseGoblin wrote:Dare I say, the joints are so clean that the supergule is all the filler you need.
Well instead of using a superghoul, I rather use my trusted 2part epoxy glue on metals and resins.
Never had a problem with that
I use that or "Gorrilla Superglue" it has an elastomer that allows the glue to remain less brittle and increases shear strength.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.
That comes down to knowledge and contacts. I know some fundamentals about mold design and I can tell you the current models are not suitable for injection mold machines due to undercuts and mold draft angles. It could be done as is but the molds would have to have sliders that turn each half of the mold into multi part assemblies. VERY expensive.
This is something I am still looking into but without a LOT more time revising the current CAD models, they are simply not suitable for that process. With all that in mind I did not seriously consider injection molding tools for these minis.
chaos0xomega wrote:You know, after lookin at the kickstarter, I'm really thinking you should reexamine your business model. If the reward for a 50 dollar investment is a box of 10 guys, then I would hate to see the full price of the figures (unless you're using kickstarter as a preorder system and that is the full price, which is not in the spirit of the site).
How is that not the spirit of the site? You mean getting enough people to promise to buy something so you can get that something off the ground? I thought that was the exact point of the site?
Its not supposed to be a promise to buy though. In fact most rewards are either done at cost/something near it or indirectly related to the project. Its evident by the fact that its called a 'reward' and not a 'return on investment'. I'm not being rewarded for donating if the 'reward' is effectively a preorder. Why should I fund a project (other than the fact that I think its really cool and want to see the company succeed, but my altruism only goes so far when I'm lucky to have enough money to just get by) when I can get the same stuff for the same price once its been developed and released? From an economics standpoint (time value of money), it actually would cost me MORE money to donate now and wait 3 months for the product than it would to just wait the 3 months (assuming the funding goal is met) and purchase it then. Why can't some of the rewards be limited run items? Hell, why can't it be a "Special Thanks to" on the box art? It doesn't have to be purely financial, I just don't like the idea of treating it as a preorder source and nothing else.
BTW Mark, I dont know if you considered it, but depending on the cost to go into plastic production, you could have set up a higher funding goal for your kickstarter project with the intent to do plastics first. Personally, I would have at least tried for it before resorting to resin/metal, especially for kits like these, I don't know what the costs of plastics for these minis would be, but I can't imagine a squad of 10 costing more than what could be feasibly achieved.
I think we have a difference of opinion on what Kickstarter is and is not. I would agree with you that it is not a pre-order venue, but it is not a wholesale discount-clearing house either.
Kickstarter is a social venture capital system used to get projects off the ground. They call them “rewards” because it has the ability for donors to receive copies or other incentives of the artists work. It also allows those who are so inclined, to donate beyond the reward level, say a $100.00 reward level but they choose to donate $150.00 because they believe in the project and would like to see it come to fruition. When you go to KQED or another public service station that is holding a funding drive, you are supporting the ability for that entity to continue brining you the products and services that you enjoy. Do they give you items commensurate with your donation? No… Here you are receiving items that match or exceed your donation. People who support the numerous movie and art projects are not receiving a dollar for dollar translation. They are helping the project producer make the project happen.
My project is to pull in $3000.00 to add to my $2000.00 and allow me to produce all the prototypes and molds needed for this product line. Will everything be in the black when all is said and done? I doubt it but I hope it would be. At the current costs and reward funding levels. We have the prototypes to pay for, the molds the miniatures and bases to fulfill the rewards, the credit card fees and the 5% Kickstarter fees. With $5000 invested I would need to sell 1497 miniatures (150 squads) to be in the black. Considering most miniatures sell about 400-600 units per year according to my spincaster, I would say that my prices are more than reasonable for what you receive. Will the MSRP be higher than the $5.00 you pay here? Yes. Most miniatures today are grouped in the $6.99 to $9.99 range. Why? Because they need to look at giving the brick and mortar stores a 40-50% discount while still paying for mold replacement costs (as I do). Do I know an exact retail right now? No. I need to see how close I am to being in the black when the project is complete.
I invite you to do a search for miniatures; you will see the other projects were charging more than I am for their completed rewards, in some cases $10.00 per mini.
Take Tom Mason’s project as an example, do you truly believe people would pay $10.00 a miniature without knowing that a good portion of that is simply to help Tom get some solid ground under his feet?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1470153821/effigy-miniatures-a-new-sci-fi-and-fantasy-miniatu?ref=live
I don’t expect to change your opinion on this, but since we keep coming back to it I felt I needed to state my case and allow you to decide if you would like to support this project or not.
I would like to (and I most likely will, you know I have been following your work for a while now, and helping out wherever I could) but I almost feel like I'm being taken advantage of, instead of actually supporting a startup I'm purchasing a preorder. It has been proven in management studies that depending on the implementation of incentive, it can actually have the reverse effect from what is desired, and I think thats probably whats happening to me. It also doesn't help that the stuff is just flat out expensive and there doesn't seem to be any real implementation of economies of scale:
If I donate 25 bucks I pay 5.00/mini
If I donate 49, I save .10/mini
If I donate 199, I actually only save .025/mini, which means its actually more economical (by about 3 dollars) to donate 49 dollars 4 times than it is for me to do one lump donation of 199 dollars (ignoring the fact that the minis are slightly different in the 199 package)
It really doesn't become economical for me to make a large donation to the cause until the 489 dollar level, assuming a baseline cost of 375 dollars for a leviathan (which actually brings the cost per mini down to the 2-3 dollar range). I hope you understand why this is problematic, especially for those of us that don't have 489 dollars to throw at you but would still like to help out.
The fact that you're asking for shipping fees on top of all this, even though its supposed to be a 'reward' makes me feel that I'm making a purchase from you rather than actually being rewarded for helping make your dream a reality, which is what kickstarter is really supposed to be about.
Its also worth noting that properly implemented economies of scale (in terms of price points) have been proven to see greater returns if you're talking about profits. If you can purchase 1 of item x for 10 dollars, or 2 of item x for 15 dollars, and your average customer wants a minimum of 4 of item x, you'll probably only push 4 items at 10 dollars, but you might be pushing 6 items if they are buying 2 for 15, and there is also a good chance that they will even go so far to purchase 8 items in that case.
More importantly, I hope that you keep the $899 package available as a purchasing option from your site after the minis are released so that I can actually take advantage of it when I start my job in 4-5 months.
chaos0xomega wrote:
I would like to (and I most likely will, you know I have been following your work for a while now, and helping out wherever I could) but I almost feel like I'm being taken advantage of, instead of actually supporting a startup I'm purchasing a preorder. It has been proven in management studies that depending on the implementation of incentive, it can actually have the reverse effect from what is desired, and I think thats probably whats happening to me. It also doesn't help that the stuff is just flat out expensive and there doesn't seem to be any real implementation of economies of scale:
If I donate 25 bucks I pay 5.00/mini
If I donate 49, I save .10/mini
If I donate 199, I actually only save .025/mini, which means its actually more economical (by about 3 dollars) to donate 49 dollars 4 times than it is for me to do one lump donation of 199 dollars (ignoring the fact that the minis are slightly different in the 199 package)
It really doesn't become economical for me to make a large donation to the cause until the 489 dollar level, assuming a baseline cost of 375 dollars for a leviathan (which actually brings the cost per mini down to the 2-3 dollar range). I hope you understand why this is problematic, especially for those of us that don't have 489 dollars to throw at you but would still like to help out.
The fact that you're asking for shipping fees on top of all this, even though its supposed to be a 'reward' makes me feel that I'm making a purchase from you rather than actually being rewarded for helping make your dream a reality, which is what kickstarter is really supposed to be about.
Its also worth noting that properly implemented economies of scale (in terms of price points) have been proven to see greater returns if you're talking about profits. If you can purchase 1 of item x for 10 dollars, or 2 of item x for 15 dollars, and your average customer wants a minimum of 4 of item x, you'll probably only push 4 items at 10 dollars, but you might be pushing 6 items if they are buying 2 for 15, and there is also a good chance that they will even go so far to purchase 8 items in that case.
More importantly, I hope that you keep the $899 package available as a purchasing option from your site after the minis are released so that I can actually take advantage of it when I start my job in 4-5 months.
I hear you and perhaps I could have approached it differently from a marketing standpoint…
I can see your point about the psychology of it. My only option would have been to raise the price on the rewards to couch shipping fees and raise the price of the lower level rewards to supply a perceived value of a better discount. Perhaps I should have? But I would undoubtedly be catching flack for not having cheap enough entry-level rewards.
-This is the bottom line- “With $5000 invested I would need to sell 1497 miniatures (150 squads) to be in the black.” No matter how I sell it or structure it, it has to make sense financially. I opted to go as low as I could across the board and hope that the interest was there. If not, it won’t get funded.
The $199 level is actually costing more to produce than your budgeting for… it’s the equivalent of 45 figures in production costs. If I unbundled this you would see the true costs involved.
Excellent work, especially for a company of your size. They look even better than the digital renders you've shown off before. With designs of this quality, I can't believe some large company hasn't snatched you up yet.
I was really against the concept being in metal until i realized that they were multipart kits, so it will be easy to make mods on the kits without cutting the metals. Also as an owner of one of the leviathan kits I can wrest to the quality mark stands for and know he won't allow crazy mold lines and such to ruin these.
I would like to (and I most likely will, you know I have been following your work for a while now, and helping out wherever I could) but I almost feel like I'm being taken advantage of, instead of actually supporting a startup I'm purchasing a preorder. It has been proven in management studies that depending on the implementation of incentive, it can actually have the reverse effect from what is desired, and I think thats probably whats happening to me. It also doesn't help that the stuff is just flat out expensive and there doesn't seem to be any real implementation of economies of scale:
You have made me re-examine this... The only thing I can change at this point is the shipping. the other stuff is locked in and I cant make changes.
I wanted to let you know that I have made domestic shipping within the US free. If you added shipping to the reward selection, please adjust your pledge to remove the extra cost.
I'm waiting for a check to come in, hopefully by this time next week, probably going to get one of the platoon packs, not that it matters, looks like you're going to hit your deadline very soon
Psychology besides, I believe this is gonna happen. With 28 days left and only US$49.00 to go I believe this is gonna happen. I would have liked to see these in plastic though. I will probably get a few to use as veteran guard or stormtroopers. The cost in metal is to high for me to get alot of these though.
chaos0xomega wrote:I'm waiting for a check to come in, hopefully by this time next week, probably going to get one of the platoon packs, not that it matters, looks like you're going to hit your deadline very soon
I don't believe anyone pays for anything until the closing date of the project? until then its just a pledge to pay.
As far a your pledge mattering..... Ohhhh but it does matter, $3000.00just gives me the minimum I need to have the prototypes made and the spin-casts completed for the project.
The tooling and prototypes wont be paid for until I go over the minimum project amount by another $3750.00 in sales.
So yes, your contribution and all further contributions make a HUGE difference to the speed I can deliver the next kits in.....
I justed added another 50.00 to the cause. I support you, I already bought a levithan from you already. You have a customer that believes in your work.
The prototypes look fantastic! And you've already rocketed past the initial kicktstarter goal... will have to think this over and think about getting in on it although I am really wanting to wait for your 15mm Crusader to put my funds towards!
Imo they would be improved x100 if the upper legs were either in baggy combat pants or skirted. At the moment it looks like they are wearing jodpurs. EDIT: They are technically impressive though.
RiTides wrote: I am really wanting to wait for your 15mm Crusader to put my funds towards!
Im looking forward to that as well. However, I might be very tempted by a squad of troops...after I get a few of the other things in on my "must have" gaming list.
Perkustin wrote:Imo they would be improved x100 if the upper legs were either in baggy combat pants or skirted. At the moment it looks like they are wearing jodpurs.
EDIT: They are technically impressive though.
Here is my perception of them:
Here is something I just sent to all the project backers.
This is the suggested change to the miniature to bring it into "correct" scaling.
Larger legs, thinner shoulders and re-scaled to bring the figure to 32mm scale. The project backers have the final say but I'm interested in what you think...
That is an awesome figure and infinitely better than most GW sculpts by far. I wish these could be produced in plastic, but I realize that plastic injection model production can be cost-prohibitive.
I have a soft-spot for 'Space Germans'... it's amazing what a little Stahlhelm-gas mask-like action can do for a figure. These would make brilliant Steel Legion figure for the 40k universe as mentioned elsewhere.
Please, don't make them fight 'Space Zombies'... that is so overdone it gives me gas...
This, and the commentary about the TIE pilot look.
I get that you're trying to make a 'futuristic' gas mask, but something about it just looks a little...'off'. I can't quite put my finger on it right now, but looking at it all taken together it doesn't really seem to be a single design aesthetic (if that makes sense).
The proposed model definitely looks better. However, the original still looks excellent, and I would still buy that one. I will say, the stormtrooper face mask looks much less obvious from any angle other than head-on. With the right paint job, it will probably be a non-issue.
I like the improved version methinks, the legs did look a bit thin, perhaps they could still use a bit more something as suggested, but the proposed I think is a good change either way.
Fabulous work. As soon as Amazon decides to cooperate you'll have another backer (assuming Amazon fixes whatever is keeping me from flinging shiny gold rocks at you in time).
Keep up the good work and I might have to get a collection going.
They look lovely, and the rescaling does wonders. The fact that their metal kind of puts me off, but I've bookmarked the kickstarter website and am still seriously considering putting in some money.
Fafnir wrote:They look lovely, and the rescaling does wonders. The fact that their metal kind of puts me off, but I've bookmarked the kickstarter website and am still seriously considering putting in some money.
Will the Kriegmarines also be rescaled?
Indeed... The project backers have given their consent to make the changes.
Look at where your hands are, they're on your hips, or very slightly below them.
Now, look at these models. If they were in the same pose, their arms would be nearly at their knees at worst, or halfway between the knee and crotch at best!
"Gorilla arms" syndrome strikes again. Fix it!
It's the #1 thing that wargames factory 3d sculptors constantly get wrong on every single kit they make, and it's the #1 thing you've got wrong here.
scarletsquig wrote:@NoseGoblin: These still aren't looking right.
The arm proportions are all wrong.
Stand up straight, with your arms straight.
Look at where your hands are, they're on your hips, or very slightly below them.
Now, look at these models. If they were in the same pose, their arms would be nearly at their knees at worst, or halfway between the leg and crotch at best!
"Gorilla arms" syndrome strikes again. Fix it!
It's the #1 thing that wargames factory 3d sculptors constantly get wrong on every single kit they make, and it's the #1 thing you've got wrong here.
Ideally, the shoulders need to be higher up too.
Dammit, that's exactly it!
Can't believe I didn't realize it until you said it. Something looked off, that's definitely it. The resized ones are a big improvement, but I'm sure you can do better.
scarletsquig wrote:@NoseGoblin: These still aren't looking right.
The arm proportions are all wrong.
Stand up straight, with your arms straight.
Look at where your hands are, they're on your hips, or very slightly below them.
Now, look at these models. If they were in the same pose, their arms would be nearly at their knees at worst, or halfway between the knee and crotch at best!
Not to say that the models couldn't be improved since all things can be, but I do think your anatomy example is a bit flawed.
When I stand up ram-rod straight with my hands at my side, my hip (where the ball-and-socket joint with the leg is, in case we define hip differently) lines up with about midway down my forearm meaning I have half my forearm plus my entire hand below my hip. My fingertips reach about halfway from my leg to my knee and even with a clenched fist it reaches about a third of the way down my thigh. Given that nobody I work with comments about my having freakishly long limbs nor does anyone hurl bananas at "Monkey Boy" (and believe me, they would), I'm going to say that it's within normal human variance for arms to be as long as mine.
Adjusting for the perspective since the legs are actually in a fairly open stance in the pictures, it seems to me that the arms are in the ballpark enough to say it's not wholly out of proportion while still providing an interesting model for pose and part interchangeability. Both of us can have our own opinions on whether or not that's acceptable and/or detracts from the model at all, I just wished to offer a counterpoint.
Another angle may help? Elbows are at the top of the hips "crest of the Ilium" where they should be.... Could the shoulders be thinner? yes but that causes collisions with the chest plate when the arms are posed. Not prefect but hardly gorilla arms
Thare1774 wrote:They look cool, my only question is about the comparison pic next to a Space Marine silhouette. Are they going to be the same size as a Space Marine?
The SM silhouette is a pretty good approximation of the SM actual mass and height, so what you see is a a good comparison of how the figs will appear next to a SM fig.
So are they super human? Just couldn't see them as a valid ST replacement if they are the same height as a Space Marine. I like truescale models but it would be weird to play these models as stormtroopers among regular sized guardsmen. I love the model itself though, just not for a 40k guard army.
Thare1774 wrote:So are they super human? Just couldn't see them as a valid ST replacement if they are the same height as a Space Marine. I like truescale models but it would be weird to play these models as stormtroopers among regular sized guardsmen. I love the model itself though, just not for a 40k guard army.
You do realize unaltered space marine models are the almost the same height as guardsmen
Why do you think so many people make heroic true scaled space marines?
I'm sure he realizes that - it would be nice, if unrealistic due to potential loss of sales, to see someone release a 'proper 28MM' futuristic human soldier - so I wouldn't 'have' to True Scale my Marines!
Alpharius wrote:I'm sure he realizes that - it would be nice, if unrealistic due to potential loss of sales, to see someone release a 'proper 28MM' futuristic human soldier - so I wouldn't 'have' to True Scale my Marines!
They are so close on scale to a Cadian that I doubt there would be an issue, they have the same mass as a Cadian due to GW over scaling and they are only half a head taller. They can sit right next to them on the gaming table and look quite at home IMO.
I had a test print done at "true" 28mm and it looked small and emaciated next to most minis including GWSM and Cadians... True 32 really is a sweet spot. you match the mass of the "Heroic" 28mm and only get a slight increase in height. Looking down onto the game table they look right at home.
Part of the problem is that very few mini makers are actually the scale they list... take a SM scout. to the eyes it 28mm, so its 28mm scale, right? Not exactly, take the figure out of its pose and into a fully upright position and its actually a 30mm scale with 33mm plus scale proportions for limb thickness. My troopers are 32mm when fully erect. Posed they are 30 to 30.5 mm to the eyes.... They are 2mm taller than a SM scout but have just slightly thinner limbs than a SM scout. Don't get me started on GW weapon sizes... these are 34 to 50mm scale.
I’d personally be interested in buying a small squad if these guys were 28mm but not if they’re 32mm as they look out of place any army that contains 32mm power armoured miniatures.
True I will admit that the models themselves probably look better as in 32mm scale but not in proportion to the rest of my models. I can see these being good replacements for GW Cadians though.
You do realize unaltered space marine models are the almost the same height as guardsmen
Why do you think so many people make heroic true scaled space marines?
You can definitely tell the size difference between space marines and guardsmen. It doesn't make this model bad, just IMO they would look strange amongst other guardsmen.
Alpharius wrote:I'm sure he realizes that - it would be nice, if unrealistic due to potential loss of sales, to see someone release a 'proper 28MM' futuristic human soldier - so I wouldn't 'have' to True Scale my Marines!
They are so close on scale to a Cadian that I doubt there would be an issue, they have the same mass as a Cadian due to GW over scaling and they are only half a head taller. They can sit right next to them on the gaming table and look quite at home IMO.
I had a test print done at "true" 28mm and it looked small and emaciated next to most minis including GWSM and Cadians... True 32 really is a sweet spot. you match the mass of the "Heroic" 28mm and only get a slight increase in height. Looking down onto the game table they look right at home.
Part of the problem is that very few mini makers are actually the scale they list... take a SM scout. to the eyes it 28mm, so its 28mm scale, right? Not exactly, take the figure out of its pose and into a fully upright position and its actually a 30mm scale with 33mm plus scale proportions for limb thickness. My troopers are 32mm when fully erect. Posed they are 30 to 30.5 mm to the eyes.... They are 2mm taller than a SM scout but have just slightly thinner limbs than a SM scout. Don't get me started on GW weapon sizes... these are 34 to 50mm scale.
Oh, I agree!
GW scale is out of whack.
FW Elysians and Krieg are OK, I think.
GW standards are... not well proportioned.
Still, it is the world we live in if we want to play 40K!
Anyway... your sculpts are quite nice and I'm certainly thinking about picking up a squad or two!
Just to update that I heard back from Mark about the timetable for the 15mm Crusader, and he said he's not sure but his best guess is mid-December, but he's hoping for sooner.
Here's hoping! Mid-December would be fine with me, as long as I can preorder / order some before Christmas and get them by/before early spring (need a few in time to paint up for Adepticon in mid-April).
Dammit, I'm still saving up for the big GK robot thing you make! "Investment", "Preorder" who cares what you call it? The prototypes look great. I grew up with metal minis, so I'm down with metal.
The thing with metal is: it's a pain to convert. Therefore, the 'original' better look damn good right out of the box (positioning/coolness wise...I understand there may be some flash removal and filing to do)
I really like the helmets. The weapons look very good. Proportionally they look great. My one concern is the thickness of the biceps compared to the thighs. It could just be an optical illusion of the photography, but it looks like the biceps should either be a tad smaller or the thighs a tad thicker.
I think I'm sold. These may turn out to be my new IG Stormtroopers.
Alpharius wrote:I'm sure he realizes that - it would be nice, if unrealistic due to potential loss of sales, to see someone release a 'proper 28MM' futuristic human soldier - so I wouldn't 'have' to True Scale my Marines!
To echo ChocolateGork (in a way) I'd been asking about the 15mm Crusader Leviathans, and NoseGoblin said he thought he'd have them up for preorder by mid-December. I've been trying to wait until the 15th to ask about them, but since this thread is back up, anyway... is this still on track?
Sorry we're always asking for more but that just means we love your stuff!!
Hah, and here I was thinking I was the only one wishing this.
On that note, how do they compare to Guardsmen? Are they more Space-Marine-bulky? I notice you put it on a 30mm Lipped base.
If the line does well enough I will make some greatcoat legs
There are two shots with a metal guardsman... not sure how they compare to the plastic? They are thinner than the GW over-sized dwarf proportions... On the up side, If you use these as your only guard models on the table your SM will look more like a true scale SM due to the bulk difference
Grundz wrote:man i'm so regretting not kickstarting this time, lol
def will when those mini crusaders come out!
Got off the phone with the caster today.... I already have the first article cast and a built 5.5" mini-me but I have been delaying posting anything due to my caster inability to stick to deadlines
When he delivers the first 50 out of the 100 ordered I'll post them up for a gander.
Grundz wrote:man i'm so regretting not kickstarting this time, lol
def will when those mini crusaders come out!
Got off the phone with the caster today.... I already have the first article cast and a built 5.5" mini-me but I have been delaying posting anything due to my caster inability to stick to deadlines
When he delivers the first 50 out of the 100 ordered I'll post them up for a gander.
Now you really have my attention. The troops are cool, but Im deep into a fantasy project...however there is always time for big robots.
Grundz wrote:man i'm so regretting not kickstarting this time, lol
def will when those mini crusaders come out!
Got off the phone with the caster today.... I already have the first article cast and a built 5.5" mini-me but I have been delaying posting anything due to my caster inability to stick to deadlines
When he delivers the first 50 out of the 100 ordered I'll post them up for a gander.
I cast a /little/ too and man its hard to get the motivation to get the job done sometimes! Really looking forward to it.
In the wait ive picked up 3 dreadknights off of good deals, so, not sure what I'll be doing with those! XD
sharkticon wrote:NoseGoblin, I missed out on the kickstarter, and was wondering if there will be any opportunity to order these models in the future?
Yep, I hope to list them for sale to everyone before the end of this month... I'm just trying to figure out what shopping cart software to integrate, because Paypals inventory tracking and shopping cart leave a lot to be desired.
sharkticon wrote:NoseGoblin, I missed out on the kickstarter, and was wondering if there will be any opportunity to order these models in the future?
Yep, I hope to list them for sale to everyone before the end of this month... I'm just trying to figure out what shopping cart software to integrate, because Paypals inventory tracking and shopping cart leave a lot to be desired.
I hope some of those kickstarter packages come back in the future. I would definitely invest my money in the top tier one if I had a job (which will hopefully be soon).
Also, any idea when the other 3 Leviathans might be expected? I wants me an Azazel :3
Just got my platoon in the mail too. nice clean casts but man there are alot of parts. still I'm very happy with what I see and I just started to assemble them
Grundz wrote:man i'm so regretting not kickstarting this time, lol
def will when those mini crusaders come out!
Got off the phone with the caster today.... I already have the first article cast and a built 5.5" mini-me but I have been delaying posting anything due to my caster inability to stick to deadlines
When he delivers the first 50 out of the 100 ordered I'll post them up for a gander.
Mmmmmm, tempting to see that built 5.5" one!
For myself the timing is unfortunate, as I had to commit to different models since it was an army for Adepticon that I had hoped to use them for (I now have it assembled and am about to start painting).
Still looking forward to seeing them, though! I think they will sell like hotcakes, if you can get the inventory.
Your both wrong, The design came to me when I burned a piece of toast. What I saw there, was either the head of a saint or an Eisenkern Sturmtruppen. I settled on the latter
Your both wrong, The design came to me when I burned a piece of toast. What I saw there, was either the head of a saint or an Eisenkern Sturmtruppen. I settled on the latter
ok having assembled about 12 models (out of 40, platoon) two things come to mind.
1st these are gorgeous models when assembled. clean casts the right size for my needs at least. the anti tank team with tripod in particular looks very nice.
2nd I haven't cursed so much in a long time. I love miniatures in 1 piece because because I don't have to assemble them. these buggers...to put it nicely are a challenge to assemble. the advice you gave about gluing the gun arm on first, not always the best idea, the flat surface were the arm and torso meet always seems to have a gap. thankfully the shoulder pads cover the gap up.
All those pieces do have a nice advantage no two models look alike. I like that. these models look terrific when fully assembled. it's just a bear to get to that point.
Gamingdog wrote:ok having assembled about 12 models (out of 40, platoon) two things come to mind.
1st these are gorgeous models when assembled. clean casts the right size for my needs at least. the anti tank team with tripod in particular looks very nice.
2nd I haven't cursed so much in a long time. I love miniatures in 1 piece because because I don't have to assemble them. these buggers...to put it nicely are a challenge to assemble. the advice you gave about gluing the gun arm on first, not always the best idea, the flat surface were the arm and torso meet always seems to have a gap. thankfully the shoulder pads cover the gap up.
All those pieces do have a nice advantage no two models look alike. I like that. these models look terrific when fully assembled. it's just a bear to get to that point.
I just assembled a squad and command squad and found the problem.... My apologies for the frustration I have caused you. There should not be gaps of any kind!
Some of the arms were not properly matched Left to Right on the sprue.... This affects all hip fired weapons. The correct arm for the hip fired weapons is the one that is sprued with the AT-RPG.
Furthermore the arms that are currently sprued with the hip fired weapons is the correct arm for the AT-RPG.
I think this error happened at the digital printers, he did not group the correct left and right and the caster simple sprued up the pieces he was given.
I will have the spincaster make me a bunch of correct left arms for your hip fired weapons and get the replacements out ASAP.
Looking real nice, they remind me of the soldiers from Jin-Ron (you ever seen it?), Love the fact that their more realistically proportioned, rather than GW Heroic style. Quick question I noticed on the Light Anti-Tank Gun that its a manually reloaded by the crew, are you going to include extra ammo boxes/shells for base decoration purpose's with the kit or are you going to make that sort of thing a separate bits pack at a later date?
Rolt wrote:Looking real nice, they remind me of the soldiers from Jin-Ron (you ever seen it?), Love the fact that their more realistically proportioned, rather than GW Heroic style. Quick question I noticed on the Light Anti-Tank Gun that its a manually reloaded by the crew, are you going to include extra ammo boxes/shells for base decoration purpose's with the kit or are you going to make that sort of thing a separate bits pack at a later date?
I'm really tempted to make custom bases for these so you don't have to cut the tab off.... If I do I will mold in an ammo box to the base.
Rolt wrote:Looking real nice, they remind me of the soldiers from Jin-Ron (you ever seen it?), Love the fact that their more realistically proportioned, rather than GW Heroic style. Quick question I noticed on the Light Anti-Tank Gun that its a manually reloaded by the crew, are you going to include extra ammo boxes/shells for base decoration purpose's with the kit or are you going to make that sort of thing a separate bits pack at a later date?
I'm really tempted to make custom bases for these so you don't have to cut the tab off.... If I do I will mold in an ammo box to the base.
Yeah that's a good idea, preparing individual ammo shell/case's could be a little fiddly for a lot of people. Either way sounds great, thanks for letting me know.
Just got my mini's yesterday, they look excellent, haven't had a chance to put them together yet but I'm very impressed, I'll be ordering more soon likely
Vaktathi wrote:Just got my mini's yesterday, they look excellent, haven't had a chance to put them together yet but I'm very impressed, I'll be ordering more soon likely
If you have not done so, read the backers updates on Kickstarter... Due to the wrong sprueing of the arms left to right I created a image of what arm swaps you need to make.... I will get this fixed before release but I don't want you to get frustrated
They look spindley and to thin.. but actually the proportions are spot on, Im just corrupted by a decade of GW Heroic scale..
Apart from the scale looking "off" to me, they are absolutely gorgeous models, the 3D design/printing has really worked!!
My only minor criticism is the shoulder pads look to "flat", overall great work, Id certainly pick up a box if I wasnt so snowed under with making my own minis! :p
Anvils hammer wrote:They look spindley and to thin.. but actually the proportions are spot on, Im just corrupted by a decade of GW Heroic scale..
Apart from the scale looking "off" to me, they are absolutely gorgeous models, the 3D design/printing has really worked!!
My only minor criticism is the shoulder pads look to "flat", overall great work, Id certainly pick up a box if I wasnt so snowed under with making my own minis! :p
AH
Thank you! They are a little wide in the shoulders but that could not be helped. Making these posable meant the arms needed to clear the chest. Ah well a small sacrifice for getting units that wont look the same
I like both the sturmtruppen and kriegsmarn models. Cool looking, realistic proportions, actual anatomy, poses with sense... brilliant work. I don't understand why so many companies are so scared to make proper proportions and anatomy for miniatures... The better they look, better they will sell, or at least i think so...
I guess since you have sculpted them by computer, the legs and other parts of both kits will be interchangeables, or am i wrong?
Hoarmurel wrote:I like both the sturmtruppen and kriegsmarn models. Cool looking, realistic proportions, actual anatomy, poses with sense... brilliant work. I don't understand why so many companies are so scared to make proper proportions and anatomy for miniatures... The better they look, better they will sell, or at least i think so...
I guess since you have sculpted them by computer, the legs and other parts of both kits will be interchangeables, or am i wrong?
Now the questions are: How much? and When?
Thank you!
I should have these posted on my website by the 9th. I still need to go back over all invoices to get a $$
Awesome squads, both of them. They are very inspiring with a bit of the german we're all used to seeing, but not overwhelming and they look very like they could be real troops somewhere! Also I stopped by your blog and checked out your heavies and assault power armours....NICE! Keep it up man.
The only critique I'd give on the heavies are the backpacks are seem to be a bit too similiar considering that you've got 4-5 very different weapons. The backpack for the quadgun doesn't look like it distributes ammunition, looks more like a power generator - so unless the quad G42s spit out energy rounds you may want to consider changing it up a bit. The AnitiTank cannon uses the same backpack as the Nova and HEL cannons which I thought you may want to reconsider since the AntiTank cannon is a slug thrower and the Nova and HEL cannons are enervy weapons. Just a thought.
And your assault power armors I really like! Hey man keep up the good work!
Kinda digging that 2nd from the right command guy without the helmet.. will there be a bunch of no helmet heads, enough to make the whole squad like that? or is he just a special guy?
Looked all over your site trying to order these guys. Tried to pledge for the kickstarter only to realize that you've already finished it.
You said they might be out on the 9th, do you mean the 9th of this month?
Also, checked out your site, but the only things I could find for sale were some "Titan" esque models. Am I looking in the wrong spot or something? I really would love to order a few of these, as they look awesome and would make a great addition to the little IG army I'm making. These are going to make some seriously awesome stormtroopers!
Can't say I'm a fan of the bare heads on the command squad. They just don't look 'right'...
I would suggest either something elaborate on the helmet to denote commanders, or if you really want to go the bare head approach, have them in different/less armour. More of a formal uniform, maybe with shoulder pads and a breasplate.
Those models have great potential, but I feel there's something wrong with the proportions. The ones without helmets look like cyborgs whose head is the only thing that's not robotic. Maybe it's because the armor is too thin for a person to fit inside? I dunno.
SgtSixkilla wrote:Those models have great potential, but I feel there's something wrong with the proportions. The ones without helmets look like cyborgs whose head is the only thing that's not robotic. Maybe it's because the armor is too thin for a person to fit inside? I dunno.
The "style" is awesome though.
Look at it as body armor, not power armor.
This stuff is lightweight high strength protective armor, not the same as their heavy troopers that have fully powered and enclosed suits.
SgtSixkilla wrote:Those models have great potential, but I feel there's something wrong with the proportions. The ones without helmets look like cyborgs whose head is the only thing that's not robotic. Maybe it's because the armor is too thin for a person to fit inside? I dunno.
The "style" is awesome though.
Depends on what your used to.... anything by this manufacturer would look right at home with these minis. http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf.asp?IDNOTICIA=95 With the exception of the large shoulder pads, the scaling is pretty damn close.
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ski2060 wrote:
SgtSixkilla wrote:Those models have great potential, but I feel there's something wrong with the proportions. The ones without helmets look like cyborgs whose head is the only thing that's not robotic. Maybe it's because the armor is too thin for a person to fit inside? I dunno.
The "style" is awesome though.
Look at it as body armor, not power armor.
This stuff is lightweight high strength protective armor, not the same as their heavy troopers that have fully powered and enclosed suits.
I'll be getting a box of those for sure!
although I am really wanting to wait for your 15mm Crusader to put my funds towards!
