So if the sons of Russ continue to piss off the Inquisition to the point that one Rogue Inquisitor begins to get a lot of support behind the idea of dealing with them(Excommunication and the like). How far do you think it would progress? Would the Grey Knights be forced to get involved pr would they try to withhold their support?

My opinion: The Space Wolves can defend Fenris pretty well but I think they would definitely need allies which I imagine all the loyal founding chapters would fulfill but then you would have another civil war which would be pretty hard on the IoM. It could get pretty serious but I think the high lords of terra would side against the Inquisition because the conflict has the potential to leave the Imperium even weaker then it initially was after the Horus Heresy.

I don't think it would go anywhere. Space Wolves are a first founding.. EG they descend directly from the Great Crusade, and they have a long history which ties them to the Imperium. While all Chapters are supposed to be equal (in theory) the fact is First Foundings tend to have more power and influence due to history and Imperial Propoganda compared to other Chapters, and the Space Wolves (and Blood angels, and probably the Dark Angels and other first foundings) benefit from this. More than that Logan Grimnar is perhaps one of the more active, influential, and damn kickass Chapter Masters out there - he and the Space Wolves have been heavily involved in a great many of the major conflicts of the 41st Millenium, and they quite likely have built up as much goodwill (and contacts/influence) in the Imperium as they have made enemies (like their close links to House Belisarius.) There's also the politics angle. an Inquisitor's authority, despite being theoretically limitless, is in truth not really so - due to politics, perceptions of strength, standing in the Inquisition, etc. A single Inquisitor of no great fame trying to bring down a First Founding Chapter is probably not going to go well. Hell probably not even a Sector-levle Inquisitor Lord. Someone at the segmentum or higher level? Quite possibly, but I suspect that at that level other matters become important.

I'd also suspect that trying to toss out the Space Wolves would be coming dangerously close to opening the whole "history of the Horus Heresy" can of worms in addiiton to undermining millenia of Imperial Space Marine Propoganda.

I thought about starting this discussion with a friend of mine who is a serious Wolf player and his interpretation of the fluff, but have shyed away from it because we wouldnt get anywhere since he is in complete defense of the Wolves and I am in complete defence of the inquisition.

The Inquisition in general is driven by fear (Exluding Grey Knights becuase they are space marines and they fear nothing)... fear of the unknown, fear of loss of control, they are very human and they know it, yet they are the bravest in the Imperium due to their duties. They have to be brave to combat the horrors of the galaxy, whether they be Daemonic, Xenotic, or Heretical in nature. Sometimes harnessing this power they find it possible to overcome any odds. They are also responsible for the death of untold trillions and infinitely more depending on the number of Exterminati used. I believe that the Grey Knights would fight for the simple fact that they space wolves are space marines and the only true way to beat a space marine is with another of equal or greater power, which the Grey Knights are their superior. What would fuel this is the allegation of the pagan worship that exists within the SW chapter, and that what they are really worshipping is chaos gods/daemons. I do not believe the codex marines would send aid even on principle since the Wolves were the major Chapter to be against it. I could see another civil war breaking out, if only to reawaken the emporer in some way to have him stop the fighting, the SM armies crippled and the Inquisition broken... thus we have an opening for 6th edition... truely epic charaters wrecking untold havoc upon platoons and walking away scott free...

It does not even make sense for an Inquisitor, excluding their secret loyalties to Chaos or some stupid thing, to declare Space Wolves heretics or traitors. The Imperium is in such a perilous situation in both military and domestic terms with exterior threats abroad and chaos insurgents within, why would you cut away this huge, powerful and versatile ally (the Space Wolves)? It does not make any sense what so ever... It's almost like.... the Inquisition hates the Imperium?

Over the past couple millennia, the Space Wolves have managed to get into a fight with pretty much every other Imperial organization, from the Navy to the Guard to the Ecclesiarchy to the Inquisition. Given that the Council of High Lords is made up of people from these organizations, you can bet that there is at least a certain amount of animosity towards the Wolves present within the Senatorum.

Something to consider: The Ecclesiarch does not have the supreme authority to declare Wars of Faith alone - he must have consent from the High Lords of Terra. Given that the Church has already sent its armies to attack Fenris in retaliation for the slaughter of a bunch of clerics, it very much seems as if the verdict of the High Lords as well as the Ordo Hereticus (which monitors the Wars of Faith as well) is already cast.

I'm not sure about their standing with other Marine Chapters, though I would think that they have friends as well as rivals.

Still, I just don't see it happening. The Space Wolves have an insanely thick plot armour, up to the point of having gotten into a fight with more or less the entire Segmentum Pacificus - and still having managed to come out victorious. A logical conclusion would be to just drop an Exterminatus onto Fenris and call it a day, but as this is something the Wolves could not defend against (?) and since I see no sign of GW changing something about the Wolves' popularity-driven status, it remains out of the question.

The problem will be, of course, that the Space Wolves will likely continue to troll every Imperial faction without ever having to face any kind of consequence for their rebellious attitude and rampant geneseed mutation. They're "too cool to loose".

SW are "Frenemies" with the DA, having a long standing Rivalry.

The Wolves won't go too far.

Sure they like to push the envelope of what they can get away with, but a single chapter of Marines cannot stand against the unified might of the Imperium.

They would face the question of either being shattered by the Imperium, abandoning Fenris and fleeing into the Maelstrom, or go through a period of penance.

Fact is, as bad ass the Space Wolves (think they) are, they can not stand against the Imperium, nor can they expect the aide of other codex chapters- since the entire point of breaking into chapters was to isolate rebellions of Space Marines.

It would be a big war, and it would make Huron and the Astral Claws fiasco look like a minor conflict. But ultimately there wouldn't be any question about the inevitability of an Imperial victory.

It wouldn't even be a particularly huge war. The idea that one or two thousand marines with perhaps a dozen capital ships ( of which most are light cruisers ) can stand even against a single imperial sector with billions of soldiers ( if we include the planetary pdf ) and easily twice the amount of capital ships ( assuming a ratio of two escorts per capital ship ) is idiotic.
Sure, the Fang is mighty and Fenris is a deathworld but there comes a point when sheer numbers of men, heavy equipment and warships are just too much of an advantage to defend against for long.

akaean wrote:The Wolves won't go too far.

Sure they like to push the envelope of what they can get away with, but a single chapter of Marines cannot stand against the unified might of the Imperium.

They would face the question of either being shattered by the Imperium, abandoning Fenris and fleeing into the Maelstrom, or go through a period of penance.

Fact is, as bad ass the Space Wolves (think they) are, they can not stand against the Imperium, nor can they expect the aide of other codex chapters- since the entire point of breaking into chapters was to isolate rebellions of Space Marines.

It would be a big war, and it would make Huron and the Astral Claws fiasco look like a minor conflict. But ultimately there wouldn't be any question about the inevitability of an Imperial victory.

You got a few things wrong. There will be know unified might of the Imperium, the Space Wolves are to big and well known. And unless they do something stupid like join Chaos, atleast several chapters of Space Marines will support them. This war will somewhere between the Horus Heresy and the Babab War and will cripple the Imperium if not destroy it.

I say not just because I like the Space Wolves, I dislike those nutjobs.


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KingDeath wrote:It wouldn't even be a particularly huge war. The idea that one or two thousand marines with perhaps a dozen capital ships ( of which most are light cruisers ) can stand even against a single imperial sector with billions of soldiers ( if we include the planetary pdf ) and easily twice the amount of capital ships ( assuming a ratio of two escorts per capital ship ) is idiotic.
Sure, the Fang is mighty and Fenris is a deathworld but there comes a point when sheer numbers of men, heavy equipment and warships are just too much of an advantage to defend against for long.

Read The Battle of the Fang, Magus thought the same you.

If it did go that far, and I am not saying that it would, it wouldn't take armies and millions of troops and such. All it would require is a single ship, one not bearing the =I= on its prow, equipped with the tools for Exterminatus, and then Fenris would be no more. A single weapon that, say, causes a chemical reaction that converts all of the planet's water into its separate hydrogen and oxygen molecules would be the end of the story, as the entire planet would then explode. Given that Fenris is a world of barbarians living in wooden longhouses, caves and animal-hide ships and such... well, you know they eat around bonfires and the like. When their atmosphere suddenly becomes flammable? That's it. Those who survive the planet-wide conflagration then suffocate because there's no oxygen anymore.

Then what do you do? You deposit some captured Tyranid on the planet and let them undergo a few years of eating dead kraken and other biomatter so that you turn Fenris into a zoo of Tyranids. When anyone comes to see what happened to Fenris... you have the appearance of the fate the Squats all over again.

Or, if you just want to be a dick about it, you equip that ship with Cyclonic torpedoes, and fire them, not at the Fang, but at one of the shallower oceans of the world. Though, yes, these oceans are still very deep, these torpedoes are designed to burrow into the crust of a planet and cause its core to explode, thus literally shattering the planet.

No one survives that.

Will this ever happen? Of course not. While the Wolves might push the envelope and piss off a few random Inquisitors, they remain one of the most popular, gregarious Chapters of Space Marines in the Imperium. Tales of their adventures are told across the galaxy. I'm sure there's even a game using small tin soldiers where children of the Imperium, and particularly fanatic adult fans of the Chapter, can re-enact the greatest victories of the Space Wolves on table-top boards.

The Inquisition, as a body, isn't interested in causing that sort of upheaval and strife within the Imperium (though some factions, like Istavaanians, might...). What conflicts they have had with the Wolves hasn't really been enough to raise the question, within the Inquisition as a whole, as to the allegiance of the Space Wolves.

Should it get to that point, however, then the Wolves will need to be taking part in actions that appear to be extremely counter to the Imperium as a whole, actions that, if knowledge of them gets out, may cause them to lose the popular support of the Imperial citizenry.

Luna Dragon wrote:

KingDeath wrote:It wouldn't even be a particularly huge war. The idea that one or two thousand marines with perhaps a dozen capital ships ( of which most are light cruisers ) can stand even against a single imperial sector with billions of soldiers ( if we include the planetary pdf ) and easily twice the amount of capital ships ( assuming a ratio of two escorts per capital ship ) is idiotic.
Sure, the Fang is mighty and Fenris is a deathworld but there comes a point when sheer numbers of men, heavy equipment and warships are just too much of an advantage to defend against for long.

Read The Battle of the Fang, Magus thought the same you.

Even better, read the Plague of Unbelief. Here's a transcript: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief

In short: Space Wolves > an entire Segmentum. And people think Draigo is over the top.

Psienesis wrote:actions that, if knowledge of them gets out, may cause them to lose the popular support of the Imperial citizenry.

Actually, I wouldn't be so sure the Wolves are so famous anywhere beyond their own piece of space. It's not like the "Imperial citizenry" is well informed and has access to some galactic internet, what with communication between worlds basically being limited to astropathic transmissions and the good old "word of mouth" of travellers and pilgrims. I could believe that citizen Joe Smith isn't even aware of there being a difference between one Chapter of Space Marines and another. It's all part of the bigger legend. On most worlds, there's maybe a big statue of some Astartes hero, and that's that.

The problem I see with Space Wolves isn't that it would take more support for someone who wanted to wipe them out - the High Lords and the Inquisition like this idea already, and you don't need anything else to declare Exterminatus (you wouldn't even have to tell the other Marines...) - it's simply that their OOC importance for the franchise is too big to have them suffer the consequences that would otherwise be deemed necessary. This is pretty much a "get out of jail free" card for whatever dickery they could possibly come up with in the next couple years.

Don't forget that the 13th company and all of the space wolves that have recanted their oaths of loyalty would come back if the Space Wolf chapter were to face genocide. Leman Russ himself said he would too.

As Lynata pointed out, they've already withstood quite a large invasion force during the time of Goge Vandire. The only other citadel in the galaxy that is as powerful as the fang is the Imperial palace on Earth. The Emperor made sure of that during the Great Crusade.

And none of this is new fluff either. they've always had this much plot armor. It's even in the first 40k codex ever made...the Space Wolf codex from 2nd edition. There are plenty of people in GW that have always liked the Space Wolves and there probably always will be.

C:SW from as far back as 1992 states that the Wolves are the most popular Marine Chapter in the Imperium, with stories of their exploits being told across the galaxy, icons of their heroes, like Logan Grimnar and Bjorn the Fell-Handed being erected on Shrine Worlds and Hive squares in every Segmentum, yadda yadda. Part of this is due to their actions during their Great Hunts, which sees the Chapter going off across the Imperium to search for Russ and, in so doing, encountering, and kicking the ass of, Evil far from home, saving Hive Worlds and defending pilgrim ships and doing all that sort of heroic Space Wolf stuff they are famous for.

The Wolves have fan-boys even in the 40K universe.

Alright, you learn something new every day! I didn't know about these Great Hunts, I suppose that could explain a certain amount of fame.

The High Lords and the Ordo Hereticus still don't like them tho.

There's no reason for anyone to want to wipe out the Wolves. Maybe some nutter ultra-Puritan type might, but even then being First Founding probably gives them some cover. As long as the Wolves keep the status quo, they should be fine.

That said, any conflict would be very short. You'd just roll in with a major battlefleet, approach Fenris so that The Fang is on the opposite side of the planet, and then choose an option or two off of the Exterminatus menu. Fenris is a Death World after all, with meh resources and a potential infestation of early Tyranid organisms living on it. If someone wanted to get rid of the Space Wolves, there's no reason for them to care about keeping the planet usable.

It's been said already but, yeah Logan Grimnar is a huge celebrity in the Imperium. I don't know if he has the title "Hero of the Imperium" but the masses love him.

Well, yeah, they COULD do that, but honestly, where has that been a solution for the imperium, when they could be fighting on the ground? Exterminatus really isn't their first solution to any problem. And I think you are giving the space wolves too little credit. Given enough time, and they are going to get it, its rather hard to mask building up an army, especially when you have the resources at hand to a first founding, they are going to call in all their favours, petition any neutral factions for support, and generally build up a sizable force. A number of the first foundings are more than likely going to render support, they fought alongside each other in the crusades, at the very least. Give the Space wolves a little credit.

The =I= does all sorts of secret things that the rest of the Imperium, the High Lords included, have no right or remit to know.

Randomonioum wrote:Well, yeah, they COULD do that, but honestly, where has that been a solution for the imperium, when they could be fighting on the ground? Exterminatus really isn't their first solution to any problem. And I think you are giving the space wolves too little credit. Given enough time, and they are going to get it, its rather hard to mask building up an army, especially when you have the resources at hand to a first founding, they are going to call in all their favours, petition any neutral factions for support, and generally build up a sizable force. A number of the first foundings are more than likely going to render support, they fought alongside each other in the crusades, at the very least. Give the Space wolves a little credit.

I agree with this when I look at the Inquisition accusing the Space Wolves of any heresy due to their rituals or even how they may conduct themselves its going basically send a message to all the other Founding chapters that "this could be you but right now its not". The Astartes would side with the Space Wolves on principle alone at that point.
I don't think it comes down to just accusing a well loved chapter its the message that it sends.

Lynata wrote:Alright, you learn something new every day! I didn't know about these Great Hunts, I suppose that could explain a certain amount of fame.

The High Lords and the Ordo Hereticus still don't like them tho.

The Ordo Hereticus don't like *any* of the Space Marine chapters, as pretty much all of them have heretical practices. It's an open secret, though, that the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus largely ignore those practices in the interests of harmony between the marines and the rest of the Imperium as attempting to purge the chapters of those practices would essentially force the extermination of nearly all of the chapters.

That wouldn't go over too well with the general public. And there's the loss of fighting power that would be involved.

Instead, the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus largely turn a blind eye... until some particularly Puritanical Inquisitor or Ecclesiarchy evangelical type gets wind of these heresies and gets a bee in his bonnet over it. They're promptly provided with a seemingly large, yet still insufficient military force to go "deal with" the "heretics", and the predictable occurs.

I don't see the incident mentioned in the Space Wolf codex as anything other than one of these occasional occurances.

The first founding chapters have a lot of leeway in their rituals and beliefs because the Big E was there with them and approved of their teachings long before the "ecclesiarchy" existed. The whole Vandire debacle was about the ecclesiarchy trying to flex it's muscles over the space marines and it didn't work. The Inquisition remembers that lesson well and nothing short of the wolves openly declaring for chaos would be impetus enough to launch a campaign against them.
Bank on other marine chapters with unorthodox (but Big E approved) practices standing with them too. The resulting mess would be in nobody's interest, except for maybe Tzeench laughing in the background somewhere.

If the =][= wanted to get rid of the 'wolves, than they would throw wave after wave of guard after them...if they the wolves were summoning daemons......than the =][= would throw the Knights at them...

In the age of Goge Vandire they did throw wave after wave of Imperial Guard at them and the guard got nowhere fast. Like I said, the Fang is the best fortress in the galaxy except for the Emperors palace. And it took half the traitor legions to TRY to bring it down. You really think the Guard stand a chance against the fang? Not likely.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:In the age of Goge Vandire they did throw wave after wave of Imperial Guard at them and the guard got nowhere fast. Like I said, the Fang is the best fortress in the galaxy except for the Emperors palace. And it took half the traitor legions to TRY to bring it down. You really think the Guard stand a chance against the fang? Not likely.

If every Guardsman in the Imperium attacked it they could bury the planet in bodies...
As it is the Imperium doesn't have the resources to spare to attack and capture a major fortress on a death world held by a force willing to kill anyone who comes near them.

Here's how it could go:

The Inq would act as prosecutor.
The HLoT and most respected SM chapters would act as the jury deciding only guilt.
The most respected SM chapters would rightly insist (and the HLoT would most likely acquiesce) that the SMs decide on and carry out sentencing.
The respected SM chapters would offer the SWs terms of surrender.
The trajectory of negotiations, if any, with the SWs would be the SWs vindication or damnation.
GK assistance in purity testing of surrendered SWs may be requested or offered.
GK assistance in execution of any actions may be requested or offered upon confirmation of powerful demonic activity. (e.g. Russ returns as a demon primarch.)

It'd take a very serious offense for an all-out attack against the Space Wolves to be launched. Worshiping Chaos, raiding nearby worlds, defaming the Emperor, etc..

Inquisition wouldn't use the GK's unless there were Daemons involved. It'd mostly be other Space Marine Chapters (I can see the Dark Angels volunteering), SoB, and lots n lots of Imperial guard led by Inquisitors. Can see the Officio Assassinorum also getting involved to eliminate Grimnar.

In the end the SW would be crushed, but only after heavy IG losses and a long campaign on Fenris.

Not gonna happen unless, as someone else said, the SW starts going around with chaos (probably Khorne) insigna on their armor.
Let's face reality here, the Eclesiarchy is alread at odds with pretty much all the chapters out there and it's not really the Astartes problem, it's the clerics. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, the Astartes (with few exceptions) still follow the teachings of the Emperor, as passed on to them from their Primarches first and chapter masters later, which means they are still the true (and probably only) holder of the Imperial Truth. The SM might leave the Eclesiarchy alone because they see the use for the average citizen to believe in the Imperial Creed, but that doesn't mean they actually like the idea the Imperium as whole goes against the very will of the Emperor.
So let's say the eclesiarchy wants to put the dog down, what's gonna happen is most chapter might as well see it as the last straw, make a stand along with the SW and teach the Eclesiarchy once again what happens when they try to mess with the Emperor's Angels of Death. Even the most diplomatic chapters would most likely join side with the SW, even if it meant to destabilize the Imperium for a brief time because a SM, let alone a whole chapter, would never back down on their honor.

Heck, the Astartes could even start to re-educate the Imperium about the Imperial Truth, and it's likely the SM would win it. Why ? Because even the average citizen knows they are the chosen of the Emperor and who do you think they're gonna believe, a human cleric of an Adeptus Astates ?

I can't see anyone actually trying to kill off the SW. I mean wouldn't it just make more sense to ground them. Take away there battle barges and require them to ask for transport. Can they do that?

Of course the wolves couldn't survive the "unified might of the Imperium", but that really isn't the point.

The big problem is that unless they go full heretic the inquisition, HLOT, and various military resources would likely NOT be united against the wolves, and that is what protects them. As much as some inquisitors hate them, others don't. A first founding chapter has massive amounts of fame and loyalty. To many citizens of the imperium it would be akin to a cardinal trying to excommunicate an arch-angel.

Just like in the heresy you are going to be having traitors on both sides at all levels of leadership. It isn't the IoM vs the Wolves, it is the IoM pro wolves vs the IoM anti wolves.

What's most SM chapters are likely to side with the wolves as a matter of principle. They are technically supposed to be peers of the inquisition and not under their jurisdiction, and a such challenge to their autonomy can't go unchallenged. After all, if a first founding chapter can be pushed around like that, which chapter is safe?

For similar reasons you are likely to get the Rogue Traders in on the wolves side. They are also 'peers of the inquisition'. Factions of the adeptus mechanus and navigators nobilus are going to the in the same boat. When the inquisition starts throwing its weight around in such a huge way, and without a darn good reason, they are seriously threatening every major autonomus faction in the Imperium, upsetting the balance of power that keeps the IoM operating.

So no, no one, or even non-majority group of inquisitors could challenge the wolves. Not because the wolves themselves are so tough, but because of the delicate political situation in the IoM.

Honestly, the Inquisition has so many ties and allies that if the Space Wolves actually manage to start a war with them, they'll immediately be screwed. They've gotten away with more crap than any other Chapter (Wulfren, ignoring the Codex Astartes, refusing to believe they use psykers, ect.) and if they finally pushed a powerful organization too far everybody they had ever dissed would ally with that organization.

That being said, the Space Wolves are useful to the Imperium and it is unlikely that the Inquisition would actually deem it necessary to declare war on them.

The Space Wolves are a very valuable chapter for the Imperium and they have proven their loyalty time and time again. No Inquisitor worthy of the name would declare them to be traitors. Deviants is a possability, but the curse is relativly minor compared to what other marine chapters have had and it is relativly stable.

Truth be told, the Inquisition does suspect that the Space Wolves have some sort of mutation going on. they just don't have any proof.


Being an original Legion is another major boost. They were loyal during the Heresy and up to the current point.

The Space Wolves are also universally popular as a chapter with both the general populace of the IoM and with many of their military commanders and their fellow chapters. Inquisitors won't jeperdize the stability of the IoM over the Space Wolves.

I am under the impression that after the 13th Crusade and the stalemate in Cadia the last thing the IoM needs is another marine civil war and with a first founding chapter, where many worlds are in-debt to them and with a reputation of noble albeit a bit more savage warriors. The =][= has better chance declaring the Emperor a heretic at this particular time. Dont forget circumstances play a big role also; not only alliances and politics. You dont condemn someone who is fighting for you, especially when you have Chaos at your doorstep bashing the door in...

If now we are talking generally, still the answer is no for all the reasons everybody else said.

No explicit daemon worship no Exterminatus/excommunication/damnation/

Eumerin wrote:It's an open secret, though, that the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus largely ignore those practices in the interests of harmony between the marines and the rest of the Imperium as attempting to purge the chapters of those practices would essentially force the extermination of nearly all of the chapters.

Again, it already happened. The Ecclesiarchy's assault on Fenris must have been sanctioned by both the High Lords as well as the Ordo Hereticus (which, as an organization, also does not have an issue with all Marines btw). That's way more political enemies than any other still-loyal Astartes Chapter has made, because the vast majority of Marines is still playing by the unofficial rules and simply keep to themselves without pulling stupid gak like telling the Inquisition how to do its job or slaughter a bunch of visiting clerics at the door of their fortress. Most Chapters adhere to a certain balance between independence and deference in that they can at least be talked to, even if they won't divulge all their secrets or may not always follow a request. The Wolves just keep on being a loose cannon that doesn't bow to anyone, which is something many in the Imperium do not appreciate. Glorious past aside, they're as much an annoyance to the IoM as they are to its enemies.

Successfully purging or banishing Chapters also occurs somewhat more often than some seem to believe (i.e. not at all). In the current timeline, the Flesh Tearers are about to be excommunicated, following that "incident" at Point Gaius on Armageddon. Just like the Rainbow Warriors and the Sons of Malice were.

And by the way, neither during the Plague of Unbelief nor the Ecclesiarchy's last attack on Fenris did any other Marine Chapter or even a Rogue Trader (why on Terra would...?) show up to reinforce them. Granted, the last campaign only lasted weeks, which probably was simply too short, but you'd imagine that the 3 years of siege warfare due to Bucharis should've been enough time for all those alleged allies of the Space Wolves to join them. And just for the record - neither the millions of Guardsmen nor the crews of the hundreds of Navy warships seemed to throw a major fit over being ordered to attack the SW. You are underestimating Imperial faith/discipline/loyalty and overestimating the various Marines' ties (how many Chapters managed to rally to besiege Vandire? A whopping four?). As the past has shown, there is no "delicate political situation" with the SW (not anymore at least), only plot armour protecting a fan-favorite that acts way too rebellious in an environment that should be dominated by order.

Lynata wrote:

Eumerin wrote:It's an open secret, though, that the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus largely ignore those practices in the interests of harmony between the marines and the rest of the Imperium as attempting to purge the chapters of those practices would essentially force the extermination of nearly all of the chapters.

Again, it already happened. The Ecclesiarchy's assault on Fenris must have been sanctioned by both the High Lords as well as the Ordo Hereticus (which, as an organization, also does not have an issue with all Marines btw). That's way more political enemies than any other still-loyal Astartes Chapter has made, because the vast majority of Marines is still playing by the unofficial rules and simply keep to themselves without pulling stupid gak like telling the Inquisition how to do its job or slaughter a bunch of visiting clerics at the door of their fortress. Most Chapters adhere to a certain balance between independence and deference in that they can at least be talked to, even if they won't divulge all their secrets or may not always follow a request. The Wolves just keep on being a loose cannon that doesn't bow to anyone, which is something many in the Imperium do not appreciate. Glorious past aside, they're as much an annoyance to the IoM as they are to its enemies.

Successfully purging or banishing Chapters also occurs somewhat more often than some seem to believe (i.e. not at all). In the current timeline, the Flesh Tearers are about to be excommunicated, following that "incident" at Point Gaius on Armageddon. Just like the Rainbow Warriors and the Sons of Malice were.

And by the way, neither during the Plague of Unbelief nor the Ecclesiarchy's last attack on Fenris did any other Marine Chapter or even a Rogue Trader (why on Terra would...?) show up to reinforce them. Granted, the last campaign only lasted weeks, which probably was simply too short, but you'd imagine that the 3 years of siege warfare due to Bucharis should've been enough time for all those alleged allies of the Space Wolves to join them. And just for the record - neither the millions of Guardsmen nor the crews of the hundreds of Navy warships seemed to throw a major fit over being ordered to attack the SW. You are underestimating Imperial faith/discipline/loyalty and overestimating the various Marines' ties (how many Chapters managed to rally to besiege Vandire? A whopping four?). As the past has shown, there is no "delicate political situation" with the SW (not anymore at least), only plot armour protecting a fan-favorite that acts way too rebellious in an environment that should be dominated by order.

In fairness we get very little information on the situation regarding both the Attack by Bucharis and also the attack by the Ecclesiarchy later on...

purplefood wrote:In fairness we get very little information on the situation regarding both the Attack by Bucharis and also the attack by the Ecclesiarchy later on...

To the second I'm inclined to agree, but the Plague of Unbelief is fairly well fleshed out - what would you like to know more about in that regard?

nomotog wrote:I can't see anyone actually trying to kill off the SW. I mean wouldn't it just make more sense to ground them. Take away there battle barges and require them to ask for transport. Can they do that?

Nope not how it would work, the wolves have a protection pact with on of the astropath houses, they get first dibs on transports/

I'm a bit puzzled why a conflict between the Space Wolves and a faction of the Inquisition (or the Ecclesiarchy) is treated as such a big deal. STuff like this happens all the time, and only sometimes does it escalate to the sort of thing people are proposing - and usually it stems directly from the very same political infighting that is part and parcel of the Imperium. Even the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy fights with itself (the former because there is no real unity in it, and the puritans see the radicals as a dire threat and vice versa, and the latter because its composed of so many different even contradictory creeds.) Hell the Inquisition will even fight with the Ecclesiarchy (which includes the Hereticus) due to that whole "Reign of Blood" thing - as I recall the SoB are supposed to be watching over the Ecclersiarchy as much as serving as its army.

We know of Space Marine chapters getting purged by the Inquisition (privately) - EG such as the Celestial Lions, or the Relictors, but it's not really all that common. You start wiping out Space Marine chapters willy nilly and you start causing problems.

nomotog wrote:Take away there battle barges [...]

For some reason I read that in Carron's voice.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I'm a bit puzzled why a conflict between the Space Wolves and a faction of the Inquisition (or the Ecclesiarchy) is treated as such a big deal. STuff like this happens all the time, and only sometimes does it escalate to the sort of thing people are proposing

I think it's because the Space Wolves are pretty much the one and only Chapter that keeps "stepping out of line", getting into trouble with so many other powerful Imperial organizations. They're just the "odd man out" and have crossed that thin line more than one time, and many players think there should be consequences for that kind of behavior. Many other Chapters have been purged for much less, it's just that the SW keep appearing as using that "get out of jail free", with pretty much every other Imperial faction being their punching ball when they feel like it.

I kinda doubt that. The Flesh tearers have done it (including Slaughtering SoB quite a bit, and complaining) - the Blood Angels AND the Dark Angels have come into conflicts with various organizations in the past (both because of their respective little secrets) and I'm pretty sure the Black Templars have as well (if for no other reason they ignore the Codex.) There are Space Marine Chapters who get in trouble with the Inquisition and AdMech for not obeying that Gene-seed tithe, and even Huron didn't really gain the serious notice of the High Lords until he told them to feth off.

There's like thousands of sectors, tens of thousands of subsectors in the Imperium, and each has its own little subset of the larger Imperial organizations. Infighting like this happens all the time, and even if the Space Wolves piss off the local branches of those organizations it hardly means the organization as a whole must take notice. Particularily when those selfsame organizatiosn will be fighting with each other for power, influence, etc. (EG Calixis, Scarus, Jericho's REach, etc.) And its doubtful the Space Wolves are going to earn any special recognition because of what they do.

The Inquisition has thrown its weight around before. The SM like to maintain their autonomy if you go so far as to accuse a founding chapter then you are basically accusing them all.

You take the one chapter who has clashed with them the most and progress it to the worst outcome possible which is a civil war between two factions of the IoM.

Space Marines aren't quite as prone to infighting as other organizations, but they have their own politics and issues, so they do fight or even kill each other as well.

The main thing is, so is everyone else, and it creates a very messy situation. Even IF the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition were as a whole pissed off at the Wolves, taht doesn't mean they can fixate on them to wipe them out because they're too busy fighting other internal and external threats across the galaxy as well as fighitng political battles to maintain their power against the other organs of Imperial government.

Space Marines do have their squabbles, but when it comes down to it they are all Battle Brothers and they will consider both sides before they answer the call of the Inquisition to purge a fellow chapter.

I'd think its more likely that the High Lords and the various other, highly political (And not fanatical) factions of the Imperium would weigh the consequences of letting a well known Chapter that has strong roots in the dawn of the Imperium being wiped out just because it pissed some priests and Inquisitors off. They don't go initiating pogroms in the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition (That we know of) just because one priest, Inquisitor, or whatever fethed up some other organization's stuff (like say Siege of Vraks, or any random "destroy part of the Imperium to make the rest strnger" type of radical Inquisitor.)

Space Marines are and have always been known as an independent faction and they always do things their own way, much like the AdMech. And its well established that the independent factions will do what they need to do to stay independent, which by definition brings them into conflict (Because most of the organizations of the Imperium deep down believe they should be running things and resent the fact that everyone else gets in the way.)

Don't forget there's factions in the Imperium (esp among the Ecclesiarchy and puritanical Inquisitors) that would love to purge the Navigators and abhumans too because they are FILTHY MUTANTS that must be destroyed.

Politics is one of the biggest unifying factors (and problems) the Imperium faces. Its what helps keep it together (or at least the mutual self interest part of it does) and it sone of the things that keeps it from unifying to wipe out everything else facing it (Because it wastes resources in fighting itself as much as it fights others.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:Space Marines aren't quite as prone to infighting as other organizations, but they have their own politics and issues, so they do fight or even kill each other as well.

Badab War lol.

Badab War is the most recent example, but the Black Templars have fought with the RElictors on Armageddon as well, and conflicts between the Salamanders and Marines Malevolent have almost lead to conflicts. And of course there are the Soul Drinkers

Hell the Marines Malevolent are a good example of a Chapter who have pissed off a good many people and yet survive, as are the Flesh Tearers. And neither is a particularily numerous, well-supplied, or well-connected Chapter. As are the Minotaurs, Black Dragons... there's lots of Chapters that get into conflict with different groups (usually someone the Inquisition doesn't like) if you look hard enough. And many of them piss off the AdMech and the "scions of Gulliman" by either not conforming to AdMech stirctures regarding technology, withholding technology, or giving the finger to the Codex.

It's a galaxy of conflict after all

Connor MacLeod wrote:Don't forget there's factions in the Imperium (esp among the Ecclesiarchy and puritanical Inquisitors) that would love to purge the Navigators and abhumans too because they are FILTHY MUTANTS that must be destroyed.

Navigators are so useful that one could probably gun down an inquisitor in the street and get off with a slap on the wrist, as long as he keeps guiding the ships the IoM needs to survive. Politics, aye... but in the end it's naked practicality and money counting that wins the day.

If the guy (or in this case the Space Wolves) is of more use than hindrance it's not worth the resources to get rid of them - I don't mean just the army or fleet that wipes them out but the new chapter that must be provided to fill the place of the SW. Founding a new chapter and supplying it with starter gear is costly and not done just because you want to replace a chapter that's still working for the IoM, mostly. The price is simply too high considering the SWs crimes are mostly barking loud and sometimes killing a few easily replaced priests.

Navigators are useful, but they're not exactly vital. You can travel through the warp without them (Chartist captains do it all the time, and you can use computers and stuff) but its just vastly slower than it is with a Navigator. The Imperium would lose speed and what passes for mobility and their logistics woudl suffer, but they could survive losing Navigators. (Especially if they kept Astropaths)

What they can't stand losing is Terra and the Emperor, for various reasons.

Space Marines are going to be at least as useful as a Navigator because they're what passes for Quick response forces in the Imperium (The Navy is sort of, and Storm Troopers are too) but the Space Marines are the point of the spear, as they are oftend escribed. They're the ones who take on the toughest threats, they're the ones who carry the offense (when they are present) and they face up to the sorts of threats that the Guard usually isn't designed to face. And while yes, they can create more Space Marines, I wouldn't call that a trivial or cheap endeavour. SPace Marines take years to create, condition, equip, and you can't make just ANYONE a marine.

Besides which there's that whole propoganda/mythology angle to deal with - Space Marines have been around for thousands of years and are as much objects of veneration in some ways as the Emperor is (more like saints than gods, or maybe demigods.) in no small part because they are descendents of the Emperor. You can't just throw a Chapter out because it causes trouble and not have repercussions with that. It would be as drastic a change as purging theAdministratum Ecclesiarchy from a region of space would - and both of those factions can be just as troublesome (if not moreso) than the Space Marines are.

indeed, I would argue that the Ecclesiarchy and the Adminstratum are perhaps the more self-destructive elements of the Imperium. But they are also so entrencehd by now you can't deal without them, so they have to stay or the Imperium woudl cease to exist.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I kinda doubt that. The Flesh tearers have done it (including Slaughtering SoB quite a bit, and complaining)

Actually, I have just gotten my hands on the original source (WD #251) - and this seems to be another of those "urban myths" that just started to circulate with everyone picking it up without doubting its truth. I dunno if it was already falsified to begin with or if word of mouth has twisted it.

The truth is:
- The Flesh Tearers never got to "slaughter the SoB quite a bit", as the latter have withdrawn from Point Gaius upon seeing something was "wrong"
- The Flesh Tearers are about to get purged

If you don't want to hunt down WD #251 for this, it's also referenced a little on the old Armageddon campaign website, which you may still reach by using the Waybackmachine internet archive:
Canoness Carmina's After Action Report
Firewastes area background, mentioning the entire FT Chapter being close to be excommunicated

Connor MacLeod wrote:Navigators are useful, but they're not exactly vital. You can travel through the warp without them (Chartist captains do it all the time, and you can use computers and stuff) but its just vastly slower than it is with a Navigator. The Imperium would lose speed and what passes for mobility and their logistics woudl suffer, but they could survive losing Navigators. (Especially if they kept Astropaths)

Not so sure about that, the Imperium's reaction time to threats is pathetic even with the Navigators. Without them, they wouldn't have a snowball's chance of mustering forces to counter any waagh or hive fleet attack. Consider what would have happened at Armageddon if the reinforcements had showed up even a week or two later than they did.

Anyway, if an Inquisitor decided the Wolves were a threat, he wouldn't necessarily need to destroy them, he could just work to make sure they're never strong enough to be a major threat. He'd talk to contacts in the Mecanicum and Administratum and decrease the availability of supplies. Make it harder for them to replace and repair their equipment. Then throw in requests for aid against suicidal odds at various battlespaces in the galaxy to draw off strength from Fenris and keep the Grand Companies understrength. Wolves would still be around, but they'd be much weakened.

Still though, you'd have to find the nuttiest Puritan out of a whole bunch of nutty Puritans to think that's a good idea. Though having an Istvaanian deciding that the Wolves had gotten lazy, and needed a good stiff kick to make them strong again would make a good hook for a Dark Heresy game.

The Space Wolves are too powerful a force and too strong an ally for the Imperium to go through with it IMHO.

Whilst they have their disagreements, the Space Wolves and Inq. are ultimately on the same side and are both valuable allies. The Space Wolves are a highly-popular, first-founding Chapter with a huge amount of backing from the common man, likely support from several other Chapters, a very-well defended World, an impressive combat record and (in all likelihood) a number of Space Marines in excess of that dictated by the Codex Astartes.

It would take a lot of man-power for the IoM to take out the entire Space Wolves chapter. The idea of an exterminatus has to still deal with the entire SW fleet and Fenris' orbital defences; again, no mean task.

Space Wolves are popular among the populace - as has been stated - as a result of their fame, history and tendency to look out for your average person (e.g. standing up for Armageddon's populace), so taking them out probably wouldn't be a popular move with your average person, whilst many military sources (including other SM Chapters) are also likely opposed to the idea, particularly one involving a notorious founding-Chapter/Legion, even more so when such military assets are so desperately needed in current 40k.

Furthermore, whilst they don't exactly fight for the Imperium itself, the Space Wolves are loyal to the Emperor and humanity as a whole and are a valuable fighting force/asset. Whilst they don't share the best relationship with the IoM and High Lords, the Space Wolves are still allies and valuable allies at that. The IoM can't really afford to loose them as an ally, nor spare the manpower to remove them as an opponent.

Whilst they may not be the best friends, the situation is much better for both parties if they just get along/leave each other alone, rather than go for one-anothers head, and this is how it is at the moment and will stay (in all likelihood).

-------

And why do people keep mentioning the Grey Knights?!

Just Dave wrote:Whilst they may not be the best friends, the situation is much better for both parties if they just get along/leave each other alone, rather than go for one-anothers head, and this is how it is at the moment and will stay (in all likelihood).

I agree, although I think you're overstating how important the SW's good reputation would be. They only have that reputation because Imperial propaganda lets them have that reputation. If they changed their mind about the usefulness of the Wolves, you could look forward to about a decade of stories pushing the opposite line.

(not saying that the Space Wolves aren't 'good guys' in the 40k setting, just that their reputation is whatever the Minitrue of the Imperium wants it to be)

daveNYC wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Whilst they may not be the best friends, the situation is much better for both parties if they just get along/leave each other alone, rather than go for one-anothers head, and this is how it is at the moment and will stay (in all likelihood).

I agree, although I think you're overstating how important the SW's good reputation would be. They only have that reputation because Imperial propaganda lets them have that reputation. If they changed their mind about the usefulness of the Wolves, you could look forward to about a decade of stories pushing the opposite line.

(not saying that the Space Wolves aren't 'good guys' in the 40k setting, just that their reputation is whatever the Minitrue of the Imperium wants it to be)

That's very true; the Imperium could potentially push some propoganda about them being Chaos-hugging loonies, but as you said yourself, they're currently being painted with a good reputation by the Imperium and with their history, this could be harder to remove than some chapters...

One thing I did forget to mention is that many other forces do also dislike the Space Wolves, but again, allies is still better than enemies.

akaean wrote:
but a single chapter of Marines cannot stand against the unified might of the Imperium.

KingDeath wrote:It wouldn't even be a particularly huge war. The idea that one or two thousand marines with perhaps a dozen capital ships ( of which most are light cruisers ) can stand even against a single imperial sector with billions of soldiers ( if we include the planetary pdf ) and easily twice the amount of capital ships ( assuming a ratio of two escorts per capital ship ) is idiotic.

The bit you are forgetting is that it won't be just the Space Wolves against all of the Imperium. Even with all of the small conflicts over the ages the Space Wolves have many allies and most of them are military.

If a late founding chapter such as the Astral Claws can get support during the Badab war, what do you think will happen if someone tries to to exterminate the Space Wolves? Nearly every single first founding will aid them, this will cause nearly all the chapters to aid them, also include all the military factions that would side with Logan Grimnar and you would have one massive war.


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Lynata wrote:Successfully purging or banishing Chapters also occurs somewhat more often than some seem to believe (i.e. not at all). In the current timeline, the Flesh Tearers are about to be excommunicated, following that "incident" at Point Gaius on Armageddon. Just like the Rainbow Warriors and the Sons of Malice were.

So you give only 2 actually references among more than a thousand chapters (and missed the Relictors), it is still uncommon to purge a chapter. But as alot of people forget First Founding chapters follow a different rule book and are practically untouchable, due to the massive support they have within the IoM. The Space Wolves get called savages alot on threads, but it was Logan Grimnar who wanted to safe the population of Armageddon after the 1st war, it is actions like this that have gained them alot of support.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Navigators are useful, but they're not exactly vital. You can travel through the warp without them (Chartist captains do it all the time, and you can use computers and stuff) but its just vastly slower than it is with a Navigator.

You are missing the point, yes warp travel is possible without Navigators, but Navigators are vital in keeping the IoM going, without the level of speed they allow in travel the IoM would not be able to work, just think about fleets and IG forces taking years/decades to get to a war zone, there would be nothing to save and a whole load of Xeno waiting.

BluntmanDC wrote:
You are missing the point, yes warp travel is possible without Navigators, but Navigators are vital in keeping the IoM going, without the level of speed they allow in travel the IoM would not be able to work, just think about fleets and IG forces taking years/decades to get to a war zone, there would be nothing to save and a whole load of Xeno waiting.

"years or decades to a war zone?" Are we talking about hauling regiments in from across the Segmentum or something? With the current sector/subsector makeup of the Imperium, you have small clusters of humanity (separated by no more than a few score or a few hundred LYs) that are separated by vast distances. (hundreds or thousands of light years). Each sector and subsector is a node of localized industrial and military power in an interdependent relationship (CG Scarus, Calixis, etc.) and for the most part self sufficient, and they accomplish this without relying entirely on Navigators to provide it (EG Chartist captains. Its slow but still viable. One obvious example is Tobias Maxila from Eisenhorn, whose ship was noted in the first novel to be entirely servitor run. Are there servitor Navigators in 40K that I haven't heard of?). I will also note that early 40K pretty much had the "unbearably slow but still possible" sorts of transit times that non-Navigator warp travel has (transit speeds were like a few hundred or a few thousand c, and youc ould spend literally decades trying to cross the galaxy, as opposed to the "months or years" of more recent 40K - and that was WITH Navigators.

So if they somehow lost the Navigator houses, yes, this would become a crippling blow, and it hampers their ability to coordinate and travel easily across thousands of light years (since Navigator-assisted travel is faster than non-navigator by at least an order of magnitude if not more), but it doesn't mean the Imperium suddenly totally, utterly disintegrates - it reverts back to an iteration from a much earlier era (greater levels of isolation, longer transit times, etc.) The only way that will happen is if the Emperor is lost.

BluntmanDC wrote:So you give only 2 actually references among more than a thousand chapters (and missed the Relictors), it is still uncommon to purge a chapter.

3 Examples. And there could easily be more in sources I've never even read or just don't recall at the moment. You're forgetting that the vast majority of Marine Chapters isn't even covered anywhere in the available material, be it studio or licensed, for whatever that's worth. Do we even have a list of the names of half of their number? Let alone their history or what their relationship with the IoM is.

All we know is that it happens, which some people in this thread didn't seem to believe at all, so I pointed out the above. *shrugs*
Does it happen often? Probably not (though the AS keep special equipment in store just for this singular purpose, if Andy Hoare's article in CJ49 is to be believed). But with such a limited force such as the Marines, I guess it happens "often enough". The old WH Codex certainly provided sufficient potential story arcs for a campaign background in that vein as well, and whilst this will not serve as a "proper" example it does let the whole affair look somewhat less exceptional than you insinuate.

A quick internet search added the Soul Drinkers, the Flame Falcons, the Grey Slayers to the list, by the way ... and you already mentioned the Relictors. How many more would be enough?

BluntmanDC wrote:But as alot of people forget First Founding chapters follow a different rule book and are practically untouchable, due to the massive support they have within the IoM.

Well, that's your opinion. The SW's alleged "massive support" obviously didn't prevent the High Lords from sanctioning an Ecclesiarchal attack on their planet.

Being a First Founding Chapter undoubtedly grants some clout, but it shouldn't (in my opinion) grant total immunity. And at the end of the day, the Space Wolves are the one and only Chapter that keeps getting attention by regularly screwing with the IoM whilst not having to suffer consequences. They let the entire Imperium look like a pushover. I'm totally okay with them remaining in the loyalist fold, they're a fan-favorite after all - I'm just saying that GW could at least either tone down the rebellious attitude a bit or hint at an ongoing investigation with potentially grave results (which will simply never matter in the timeline of the game). My thoughts on the subject, anyways.

BluntmanDC wrote:The Space Wolves get called savages alot on threads, but it was Logan Grimnar who wanted to safe the population of Armageddon after the 1st war, it is actions like this that have gained them alot of support.

If the Imperium were a democracy, I'm sure this would count for something.
Or maybe not even then. In the IoM, people generally do what the Ecclesiarchy tells them. Religion is a wonderful tool when you want to control a populace, and it might be comparatively easy for a Confessor to convince his flock, the people to whom he has been preaching for many years, that the Wolves have been corrupted and need to be purged. Who would shoot an appointed emissary of the Imperial Church in cold blood if not a heretic? And we're only talking about the truth here - imagine the wonderful propaganda they'd be able to come up with. Cannibalism, men turning into animals that hunt down helpless villagers, Chaos sorcery and arcane rituals!
That is, if such convincing is even deemed necessary. Why does everyone feel the Imperium would have to broadcast its plans to purge the SW across all its worlds before they do something? Imperial commoners don't have a galactic internet, and in the 3 years that Bucharis laid siege to the Fang, none of the citizens of the entire Segmentum Pacificus gave a grot's ass.

Again, this alleged support the Wolves enjoy didn't prevent their homeworld from getting assaulted by Imperial forces two times already. I'm sorry, I guess I just fail to see what should make a third time so much harder. Other than plot armour, ofc.

The Ecclesiarchy does not need the High Lords' sanction to do whatever the hell they please.

They constantly meddle in affairs that they should not be meddling in(without sanction from the High Lords), and their Witchfinders do come into conflict with the Inquisition in pursuit of psykers.

Kanluwen wrote:The Ecclesiarchy does not need the High Lords' sanction to do whatever the hell they please.

According to the 2E Codex, all Wars of Faith need approval by the Council of High Lords. In addition to this, the Ordo Hereticus may also intervene. It's part of the safeguards to prevent another Age of Apostasy. The SoB can act alone, but not the Ecclesiarchy.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Ecclesiarchy does not need the High Lords' sanction to do whatever the hell they please.

According to the 2E Codex, all Wars of Faith need approval by the Council of High Lords. In addition to this, the Ordo Hereticus may also intervene. It's part of the safeguards to prevent another Age of Apostasy. The SoB can act alone, but not the Ecclesiarchy.

Is the 2ed codex still valid?

Y'know, it's kind of funny.

The only example of the Ecclesiarchy attacking Fenris that I can find is Bucharis' "Empire"...which took place during the Age of Apostasy.


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Admittedly, I'm not looking too hard as I'm also writing a paper--but still.

purplefood wrote:Is the 2ed codex still valid?

I've never heard of this fluff having been retconned anywhere, at least. In fact, WD #292 made it clear that nothing ever published about the Sisters, including the ancient Rogue Trader fluff, was ever retconned.
Granted, this only means that any GW SoB fluff up until and including the Witch Hunters Codex is 100% consistent, but it's not like the Ecclesiarchy received much limelight after that.

Kanluwen wrote:Y'know, it's kind of funny.
The only example of the Ecclesiarchy attacking Fenris that I can find is Bucharis' "Empire"...which took place during the Age of Apostasy.

Aye, it only shows up in the 5E Space Wolves Codex... I wouldn't be aware of it either if someone else hadn't pointed it out.

I think the issue is that while I don't find it hard to believe that the Space wolves have angered alot of other people in Imperial organizations.. that isn't neccesarily the same as angering the organization as a whole. Sometimes it can be - it depends on how many and who you anger, but you can piss off an Inquisitor (for example) or even a group of them and not bring the wrath fo the whole inquisition down on you (which is usually too busy with other things it deems important, up to and including fighting with itself.) Also the whole "ticking people off" angle does not occur in isolated cases - ALL various factions aggravate one another at one point or time - the Ecclesiarchy fights with the Inquisition (Secular vs Religious) Or Perhaps its Adminstratum vs Ecclesiarchy. Or the military vs the Ecclesiarchy - alot of that friction will stem pretty much from Vandire and events leading up to and following after that. the Ecclesiarchy is not too different from the rest of the Imperial Government - they see themselves as important, as bein gthe sole arbiters of the Emperor's will, and they often think that the Imperium would be much better off if everyone else did what they said. The military, the Administratum, the Inquisition, etc. all more or less think that way, and will squabble over it incessantly (noone wants to surrender their power or position, especially not to another faction.)

And on top of that, you have the fact that most Imperial organizations will have a degree of infighting as well. The Inquisition is an obvious example (puritans vs Radicals) but the Ecclesiarchy, composed of a myraid of creeds and cults from a million or more worlds, is not any less prone to infighting (each particular creed being convinced their view of the Emperor is the TRUE WAY) and that is likely to be a source of squabbling as well as clawing for secular authority.

Which again gets back to the point. Whether or not the Space wolves can weather an "assault" by another faction of the Imperium depends largely on the size and composition and influence of that faction. I will not ethat if you look at the Space Marine codex for 5th edition (which echoes much of the 2nd edition stuff) the Wolves have a large domain they have sovereighty over (5th ed mentions over a hundred worlds, which I assume are places similar to Garm in the Spce Wolf novel Gray Hunter and they also mention the fang is home to hundreds of Space wolf Warships (which I assume are liekly to be the strike/escort elements of the Wolf fleet, rather than the flagships/battle barge analogues.) so they do have considerable resources and defenses, not including those of the Fang and whatever orbital/system defence elemens they may have.

Lynata wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:But as alot of people forget First Founding chapters follow a different rule book and are practically untouchable, due to the massive support they have within the IoM.

Well, that's your opinion. The SW's alleged "massive support" obviously didn't prevent the High Lords from sanctioning an Ecclesiarchal attack on their planet.

Being a First Founding Chapter undoubtedly grants some clout, but it shouldn't (in my opinion) grant total immunity. And at the end of the day, the Space Wolves are the one and only Chapter that keeps getting attention by regularly screwing with the IoM whilst not having to suffer consequences. They let the entire Imperium look like a pushover.

Sorry... What? When? When did the High Lords sanction an Ecclesiarchal attack on Fenris?

Being a 1st founding chapter doesn't grant total immunity and I'm unsure what the Space Wolves have done to deserve yours and the High Lords/Ecclesiarchy's ire. They don't go out and attack the Ecclesiarchy and I don't know how they are 'regularly screwing with the IoM'; they fight to protect the realm of man, they led the defence of the 13th Black Crusade, they led the defence of Armageddon and they have helped the IoM in many other ways (hence, additional clout/support).
I'm still unsure why you think they are 'regularly screwing with the IoM'; AFAIK they attacked an Inquisitional Force attempting to investigate and other than their usual anti-authoritarian nature, that's about it? Unless you know something I don't?

Again though, the IoM is much better off with the Wolves as allies, rather than enemies.

Just Dave wrote:

Lynata wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:But as alot of people forget First Founding chapters follow a different rule book and are practically untouchable, due to the massive support they have within the IoM.

Well, that's your opinion. The SW's alleged "massive support" obviously didn't prevent the High Lords from sanctioning an Ecclesiarchal attack on their planet.

Being a First Founding Chapter undoubtedly grants some clout, but it shouldn't (in my opinion) grant total immunity. And at the end of the day, the Space Wolves are the one and only Chapter that keeps getting attention by regularly screwing with the IoM whilst not having to suffer consequences. They let the entire Imperium look like a pushover.

Sorry... What? When? When did the High Lords sanction an Ecclesiarchal attack on Fenris?

Being a 1st founding chapter doesn't grant total immunity and I'm unsure what the Space Wolves have done to deserve yours and the High Lords/Ecclesiarchy's ire. They don't go out and attack the Ecclesiarchy and I don't know how they are 'regularly screwing with the IoM'; they fight to protect the realm of man, they led the defence of the 13th Black Crusade, they led the defence of Armageddon and they have helped the IoM in many other ways (hence, additional clout/support).
I'm still unsure why you think they are 'regularly screwing with the IoM'; AFAIK they attacked an Inquisitional Force attempting to investigate and other than their usual anti-authoritarian nature, that's about it? Unless you know something I don't?

Again though, the IoM is much better off with the Wolves as allies, rather than enemies.

The Ecclesiarchy and the SoB (3 Orders of them i might add) moved to attack Fenris but gave up soon after...
Though considering the SoB are the Ecclesiarchy's troops i don't see why they made a distinction...
Not sure if the Frateris Militia count as troops or not...

purplefood wrote:The Ecclesiarchy and the SoB (3 Orders of them i might add) moved to attack Fenris but gave up soon after...
Though considering the SoB are the Ecclesiarchy's troops i don't see why they made a distinction...
Not sure if the Frateris Militia count as troops or not...

Oh yeah, but it mentions neither the High Lords nor was it an 'attack'. I got the impression it was the Ecclesiarchy attempting to investigate a rumour and they brought some SoB along for back-up... Maybe that's just me though, 'enter fenrisian space in force' could suggest an attack I suppose...

I'm fairly certain all they did was blockade Fenris. It lasted three years, and they eventually gave up. It was not a full out war between the Space Wolves and the Ecclisiarchy.

Just Dave wrote:

purplefood wrote:The Ecclesiarchy and the SoB (3 Orders of them i might add) moved to attack Fenris but gave up soon after...
Though considering the SoB are the Ecclesiarchy's troops i don't see why they made a distinction...
Not sure if the Frateris Militia count as troops or not...

Oh yeah, but it mentions neither the High Lords nor was it an 'attack'. I got the impression it was the Ecclesiarchy attempting to investigate a rumour and they brought some SoB along for back-up... Maybe that's just me though, 'enter fenrisian space in force' could suggest an attack I suppose...

Well the Sw blew away some tresspassers so they were kind of warranted in that though Adeptus Astartes homeworlds are sovereign territory in the Imperium. 3 Orders of SoB is some back-up...
Though you're right, it doesn't mention the High Lords but apparently they need the High Lords' permission for attack and such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:I'm fairly certain all they did was blockade Fenris. It lasted three years, and they eventually gave up. It was not a full out war between the Space Wolves and the Ecclisiarchy.

The attack by Bucharis lasted 3 years, the 'attack' by the actually Ecclesiarchy lasted 3 weeks.
Though considering the SW attitude to anything in their space there probably would have been a fight.

iproxtaco wrote:I'm fairly certain all they did was blockade Fenris. It lasted three years, and they eventually gave up. It was not a full out war between the Space Wolves and the Ecclisiarchy.

It says three weeks in the Codex.

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but it doesn't sound like a real 'attack' to me, nor does it certainly sound like full-on 'war'. They're not going to try and take out the Space Wolves with 3 Soritas Orders...

It sounds like a skirmish or maybe just a face off, neither side would be willing to start the fight since they would be the ones censured by the Imperium at large for the attack.

I'm confusing two separate incidents. I know there was a long-term blockade, but I think that was during the Apostasy or around that time.

iproxtaco wrote:I'm confusing two separate incidents. I know there was a long-term blockade, but I think that was during the Apostasy or around that time.

Switch blockade for full-on siege...
Cardinal Bucharis made himself a little empire just after the Apostasy stopped, he eventually bumped into Fenris and for some reason attacked it and got his arse handed to him...

Just Dave wrote:
Oh yeah, but it mentions neither the High Lords nor was it an 'attack'. I got the impression it was the Ecclesiarchy attempting to investigate a rumour and they brought some SoB along for back-up... Maybe that's just me though, 'enter fenrisian space in force' could suggest an attack I suppose...

The way it's worded makes it sound like the Ecclesiarchy showed up, demanded access to the "pagan savages who we want to purge if they don't accept the Imperial faith" that the Wolves recruit from...and the Wolves responded with "NOPE!" in the form of anti-ship defenses opening up.

Just for references, here is the full Codex quote:

The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris 886.M41
A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces.

I'm aware.

It's supremely unhelpful for establishing anything.

Kanluwen wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
Oh yeah, but it mentions neither the High Lords nor was it an 'attack'. I got the impression it was the Ecclesiarchy attempting to investigate a rumour and they brought some SoB along for back-up... Maybe that's just me though, 'enter fenrisian space in force' could suggest an attack I suppose...

The way it's worded makes it sound like the Ecclesiarchy showed up, demanded access to the "pagan savages who we want to purge if they don't accept the Imperial faith" that the Wolves recruit from...and the Wolves responded with "NOPE!" in the form of anti-ship defenses opening up.

Yup, thats pretty much what happened. My thanks to Lynata for posting the actual information.


Also, with a few notable exceptions most of SW vs IOM tussles all start from the IOM side of things. The wolves don't pick these fights, they just tend to respond with overwhelming force.

Jayden63 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
Oh yeah, but it mentions neither the High Lords nor was it an 'attack'. I got the impression it was the Ecclesiarchy attempting to investigate a rumour and they brought some SoB along for back-up... Maybe that's just me though, 'enter fenrisian space in force' could suggest an attack I suppose...

The way it's worded makes it sound like the Ecclesiarchy showed up, demanded access to the "pagan savages who we want to purge if they don't accept the Imperial faith" that the Wolves recruit from...and the Wolves responded with "NOPE!" in the form of anti-ship defenses opening up.

Yup, thats pretty much what happened. My thanks to Lynata for posting the actual information.


Also, with a few notable exceptions most of SW vs IOM tussles all start from the IOM side of things. The wolves don't pick these fights, they just tend to respond with overwhelming force.

That is what they were made to do...

When I read that passage I saw it as the Ecclesiarchy sticking their nose in where it didn't belong and getting warned off for invading Space wolf territory. Then they get mad and come back in force to press the issue.. what do they expect? Hell this is what I tend to expect from the Ministorum. They think everyone should be worshipping the Emperor the way they think (because it means tithe money to them and more and more secular power, because they are the ones who control the Imperial cult) They really hate the fact there are factions independent of the Imperial cult (the Marines and the AdMech in particular) even though its well known and estalbished that both factions cherish and defend their independence fiercely. Had the Ecclesiarchy approached the AdMech in that same way I can imagine the response would be the same. does that suddenly mean that a forge world suddenly needs to be declared hereitc and purged just because it doesn't want to bow down to the Ecclesiarchy?

As I said, this is all about politics. Stuff like this happens in the Imperium, including to the point where it spills into actual conflict and bloodshed.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm aware.
It's supremely unhelpful for establishing anything.

Given how many times this passage was referred to in a different way than it is actually written down ("no war", supposed lack of respect whose mention is absent from the original quote), I just wanted to make sure.

Connor MacLeod wrote:When I read that passage I saw it as the Ecclesiarchy sticking their nose in where it didn't belong and getting warned off for invading Space wolf territory.

Absolutely. It's just the "manner of response" that makes the SW stand apart from other Marine Chapters. You simply don't go around killing Imperial emissaries in cold blood just because you don't want to talk to them. Well, you can, but then we should expect there'd be consequences. And so far, these consequences are not what we are used to from the Imperium. 's all I'm saying. Then, this was about the Ecclesiarchy, which has a gak-ton of political influence throught the Imperium, but admittedly isn't all powerful. If you're fine forcing off the Inquisition, things just start to look odd, because the Inquisition > all.

You're forgetting context here though Lyn.

Fenris is completely offlimits to the Imperium at large. Even the Wolves let them just do whatever, provided they don't start worshiping Chaos.

The people of Fenris know about the Emperor in his role as "The Allfather" and "Russ the Wolf-Father", but there's not all that much else they're exposed to.

The Ecclesiarchy shows up, declaring that they're there to investigate the "worship of pagan gods"...that's pretty dang insulting to the Space Wolves, who have had that method of 'worship' going since the Great Crusade and the reunification of Russ with the Emperor.

And let's not forget that dependent upon whether or not the Age of Apostasy and the invasion of Fenris(and the slaughter of Fenris' population happening during it) is retconned or not...it suddenly becomes a case of the Wolves behaving in a manner that makes far, far more sense.

Especially if said Ecclesiarchal quorom just up and decided to show up, without getting the "approval of the High Lords"(which isn't always done, as I've said).

Lynata wrote:Absolutely. It's just the "manner of response" that makes the SW stand apart from other Marine Chapters. You simply don't go around killing Imperial emissaries in cold blood just because you don't want to talk to them. Well, you can, but then we should expect there'd be consequences. And so far, these consequences are not what we are used to from the Imperium. 's all I'm saying. Then, this was about the Ecclesiarchy, which has a gak-ton of political influence throught the Imperium, but admittedly isn't all powerful. If you're fine forcing off the Inquisition, things just start to look odd, because the Inquisition > all.

You kinda lost me here.

Are you saying they murdered people in the first case (when they opened fire as Ecclesiarchy agents approach to "investigate the purported heretics" - which is a pretty foolish thing to level at a Space Marine, especially with regards to his view of their Primarch) or when the Ecclesiarchy comes back, in force demanding that the Space Wolves let them in and submit to Ecclesiarchal authority at the barrel of a gun?

The former doesn't really say that anyone died - it just says they opened fire, which means anything from "warning shots" to "shooting to blow a ship out of the water" - and it doesn't even provide context beyond that they want to investigate the Space Wolves as supposed heretics.

In the second case, you have the Eccelsairchy bringing military force into a sovereign, Imperial-allied system, without permission, and attempting what amounts to an invasion.

Either way I'm at a loss to understand how the Space Wolves brought this on themselves because the Ecclesiarchy comes in making high-handed demands and expecting capitulation, then getting mad and trying to force the issue when the Wolves don't submit. If anything it sounds like extreme stupidity on the part of the Ecclesiarchs - I even feel sorry for the Sisters who would have gotten killed, because they're dying not for the Emperor, but for the ego and pride of a bunch of stupid priests.

This seems like another instance of the Inquisition throwing its weight around. The fact that they came back with a force after previously being scared off tells me someone was probably uncomfortable with the level of autonomy they have.

Then again most factions in the Imperium need this autonomy to do their jobs. Ad Mech or any other Space Marine chapter wouldn't stand for it but provoking a very volatile chapter like the Wolves just seemed ridiculous.

Russ Mandarin wrote:This seems like another instance of the Inquisition throwing its weight around. The fact that they came back with a force after previously being scared off tells me someone was probably uncomfortable with the level of autonomy they have.

Then again most factions in the Imperium need this autonomy to do their jobs. Ad Mech or any other Space Marine chapter wouldn't stand for it but provoking a very volatile chapter like the Wolves just seemed ridiculous.

It would be anoher case if it has been the Inquisition and not the Ecclesiarchy...
IMO the Inquisition only really throws its weight around when all that cna be achieved through sneaking has been achieved and what they really need now is a big gun and some handy meatshields.

If that ever happened the Imperium would of lost one of its most powerful chapters.

Harriticus wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:Space Marines aren't quite as prone to infighting as other organizations, but they have their own politics and issues, so they do fight or even kill each other as well.

Badab War lol.

The Badab war is a case of Astartes fighting Astartes, but as a rule they don't come to blows very often.

Space Marines may have a deep suspicion of chapters with different traditions, but as a group they will still side with a fellow Astartes over an Inquisitor any day of the week. they prefer to take care of divergent Astartes themselves and not get other Imperial organizations involved.

Grey Templar wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:Space Marines aren't quite as prone to infighting as other organizations, but they have their own politics and issues, so they do fight or even kill each other as well.

Badab War lol.

The Badab war is a case of Astartes fighting Astartes, but as a rule they don't come to blows very often.

Space Marines may have a deep suspicion of chapters with different traditions, but as a group they will still side with a fellow Astartes over an Inquisitor any day of the week. they prefer to take care of divergent Astartes themselves and not get other Imperial organizations involved.

In fact, this appears to be why some of the chapters ended up on the wrong side during the Badab War. They misunderstood what was going on, and thought that it was a case of the Imperium throwing its weight around against a fellow chapter. It wasn't until Huron's forces raided another chapter's shipping that the Marine chapters at large finally realized what Huron was up to.


As for the Ecclesiarchy's actions against the Wolves...

As I stated earlier, this merely appears to have been an instance of a particularly puritanical Ecclesiarchy official with some major political pull getting a bee in his bonnet about the Wolves for some reason. He probably chanted "Emperor Protects" one too many times during the services and thought that he could waltz right into Fenris without a care in the world. So he did something stupid and attempted to break the informal truce between the Ecclesiarchy and the marines. Once the marines responded in the predictable manner, the Ecclesiarchy was forced to give him some support. So they gave him just enough military force to make it look like he had some power but not enough to actually get anywhere, and let him run off to Fenris. The snubbing by the Wolves *required* some form of response. The Wolves' ability to keep the Ecclesiarchy fleet away from Fenris made the Ecclesiarchy look weak. But the Ecclesiarchy would have looked even weaker if it hadn't done anything at all (it's "The Wolves held us back, but YOU'RE not the Wolves!" vs "Thumb your nose at us with impunity; we won't do anything in response."). And breaking the informal truce would have been the biggest disaster of all.

And there's no way that the High Lords of Terra were involved in that mess. There simply wasn't enough turn around time between when the initial visitors were run off and when the military mission arrived. It's entirely possible that Earth didn't even hear about the incident until *after* the whole mess was over, let alone formulate a response and send it back.

Kanluwen wrote:Fenris is completely offlimits to the Imperium at large.

And where have you read that? Autonomy of a region isn't the same as isolation thereof, and the Space Marines are still an Imperial force, subject to Imperial decrees.

Kanluwen wrote:The Ecclesiarchy shows up, declaring that they're there to investigate the "worship of pagan gods"...that's pretty dang insulting to the Space Wolves

I posted the actual quote above, why are you again starting to say things that the source didn't mention?

Kanluwen wrote:Especially if said Ecclesiarchal quorom just up and decided to show up, without getting the "approval of the High Lords"(which isn't always done, as I've said).

Oh, I don't claim those priests had any approval (although they may have had the consent of the Ecclesiarch, who is at least one High Lord). It's just that the Ecclesiarchy needs approval of the entire Council to engage in a War of Faith. The only ones free to attack some Space Marine Chapter without green light from Terra are the SoB alone, though they usually only do so ad-hoc when their suspicions are aroused (see Argent Shroud vs Angels Vermillion). The Ecclesiarchy's operations, however, are tightly controlled by the Ordo Hereticus as well as the decrees passed after the Age of Apostasy.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Are you saying they murdered people in the first case (when they opened fire as Ecclesiarchy agents approach to "investigate the purported heretics" - which is a pretty foolish thing to level at a Space Marine, especially with regards to his view of their Primarch) or when the Ecclesiarchy comes back, in force demanding that the Space Wolves let them in and submit to Ecclesiarchal authority at the barrel of a gun?

The former, of course. And I really don't think the clerics have called the Marines "heretics".
Usually stuff like this goes: (a) Imperial emissary approaches and wants to talk, (b) Space Marines tell him to feth off, (c) guy leaves.
In this case, however, and unlike any other loyalist Chapter, the Wolves have waived the off-fething phase and killed them in cold blood. That's a damn suspicious thing. For the SW, I imagine they just had a good laugh at their style of flipping the IoM the finger, but I wager there's a couple highly influential people who think the furballs are currently "huronizing".

Connor MacLeod wrote:The former doesn't really say that anyone died

To quote, they "open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy". Warning shots from the Fang's guns will have a pretty devastating effect when detonating in the midst of a bunch of robed clergy.

Alas, I suppose this will be another topic where the opinions are just too far apart and surely influenced by personal perception. Due to the nature of how the franchise works, all of our interpretations are equally valid, anyways. I suppose all the stuff we already posted will be sufficient for any other readers to form their own opinion, too.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Fenris is completely offlimits to the Imperium at large.

And where have you read that? Autonomy of a region isn't the same as isolation thereof, and the Space Marines are still an Imperial force, subject to Imperial decrees.

Gee, let's see...everywhere that we've had an in-depth look at Fenris.

There's a reason that Fenris is at an Iron Age civilization level.

Kanluwen wrote:The Ecclesiarchy shows up, declaring that they're there to investigate the "worship of pagan gods"...that's pretty dang insulting to the Space Wolves

I posted the actual quote above, why are you again starting to say things that the source didn't mention?

That's what is in the quote.
The Ecclesiarchy was there, investigating the "worship of pagan gods".

Kanluwen wrote:Especially if said Ecclesiarchal quorom just up and decided to show up, without getting the "approval of the High Lords"(which isn't always done, as I've said).

Oh, I don't claim those priests had any approval (although they may have had the consent of the Ecclesiarch, who is at least one High Lord). It's just that the Ecclesiarchy needs approval of the entire Council to engage in a War of Faith. The only ones free to attack some Space Marine Chapter without green light from Terra are the SoB alone, though they usually only do so ad-hoc when their suspicions are aroused (see Argent Shroud vs Angels Vermillion). The Ecclesiarchy's operations, however, are tightly controlled by the Ordo Hereticus as well as the decrees passed after the Age of Apostasy.

With how many Wars of Faith get declared, are you really going to say every one of them has the entire Council behind them?

No, they don't. Just like every Imperial Crusade is not a War of Faith, every War of Faith does not necessarily have the full backing of the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While we're at it, let's clear something up.

Huron went rogue for a dang good reason. The guy was given the task of protecting critical Imperial worlds...and was expected to do it with practically nothing. His Chapter, the Astral Claws, was a newly founded one and shoved out there to tame a nearly wild sector of space.

They not only tamed it, but they made it into a highly productive and extremely well-trained sector of space in terms of the militia.

If they hadn't been goofing around with cloning Astartes and the Inquisition hadn't gone butting its head in, we very well could have had another Ultramar system.

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, let's see...everywhere that we've had an in-depth look at Fenris.

I presume you don't happen to have a quote at hand?

Kanluwen wrote:There's a reason that Fenris is at an Iron Age civilization level.

And this isn't it.

Kanluwen wrote:That's what is in the quote.
The Ecclesiarchy was there, investigating the "worship of pagan gods".

No, it is not. You keep writing it as if the clerics would have used that exact same wording just to antagonize the Marines and hence give them a better reason for the killing. You simply presume.

Kanluwen wrote:With how many Wars of Faith get declared, are you really going to say every one of them has the entire Council behind them?

Given that's what the Codex said, I suppose it must be so.
That said, I must admit I am actually unaware of the number of Wars of Faith that the Ecclesiarch declares in a year - or a millennium. I must have missed that source, care to enlighten me?

Kanluwen wrote:No, they don't. Just like every Imperial Crusade is not a War of Faith, every War of Faith does not necessarily have the full backing of the Imperium.

Apples and oranges. Every Imperial Crusade still has the full backing of the High Lords also.

Kanluwen wrote:While we're at it, let's clear something up.
Huron went rogue for a dang good reason. The guy was given the task of protecting critical Imperial worlds...and was expected to do it with practically nothing. His Chapter, the Astral Claws, was a newly founded one and shoved out there to tame a nearly wild sector of space.
They not only tamed it, but they made it into a highly productive and extremely well-trained sector of space in terms of the militia.
If they hadn't been goofing around with cloning Astartes and the Inquisition hadn't gone butting its head in, we very well could have had another Ultramar system.

I feel like in a courtroom already.

Call it what you want - withholding tithes, including gene-seed requested for purity screening, is an act of treason against the Imperium of Man. Shooting down the investigators that come looking where the tithe went is an act of war against the Imperium of Man. Huron was a megalomanic that wasn't satisfied with what he had and didn't understand that the Imperial resources he wanted for the Crusade that was to carve out his little pocket empire were needed elsewhere. You don't want to play ball, the Imperium comes for you. Sooner or later. Regardless of whether you're a governor or a Marine Chapter Master.

*: Again, my perception is shaped by the stuff I've read. Obviously you must have read different things, else our opinions wouldn't be so far apart. We're moving in a circle here, so I suppose we can only agree to disagree (again). At least none of us can be wrong.

Huron was a megalomaniac like another famous H-named person was a humanitarian.

Before the Imperium started pulling the defenses he worked so diligently to establish, everything was hunky-dory. It's not even like the guy chose to just say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day because an Inquisitor was mean to him.

Kanluwen wrote:Huron was a megalomaniac like another famous H-named person was a humanitarian.

Before the Imperium started pulling the defenses he worked so diligently to establish, everything was hunky-dory. It's not even like the guy chose to just say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day because an Inquisitor was mean to him.

Sane, rational folk don't decide to sacrifice planets worth of people so that they can become a daemon-god.

And he didn't do that until after the Badab War's conclusion, and even then it took a few decades to do it.

Lynata wrote:The former, of course. And I really don't think the clerics have called the Marines "heretics".

As I recall things, accusations of worshipping "Pagan gods" - eg anyone NOT the Emperor, is heresy. Or even if they are worshipping the Emperor, they may not be doing so in the Ecclesiarchy approved manner, which is also heretical. This also amounts to telling the Wolves that the way in which they regard their Primarch and Emperor is wrong, and Astartes regardless of the Chapter do not take well to people belittling their Primarchs and practices.

Usually stuff like this goes: (a) Imperial emissary approaches and wants to talk, (b) Space Marines tell him to feth off, (c) guy leaves.
In this case, however, and unlike any other loyalist Chapter, the Wolves have waived the off-fething phase and killed them in cold blood. That's a damn suspicious thing. For the SW, I imagine they just had a good laugh at their style of flipping the IoM the finger, but I wager there's a couple highly influential people who think the furballs are currently "huronizing"

The quote said nothing about anyone actually dying from being fired on though. If the Wolves had wiped out the delegation entirely, then why did the Ecclesiarchy return and try to force an invasion? The fact they return a year later suggests someone got away to tell the story, and the context makes it clear their ship was fired upon (they were still in orbit, they never reached the ground.)

Also I dispute the notion that the Ecclesiarchy is the representation of the IOM as a whole.

To quote, they "open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy". Warning shots from the Fang's guns will have a pretty devastating effect when detonating in the midst of a bunch of robed clergy.

Depends on what they fired and what kind of ship it was, wouldn't you say?

Alas, I suppose this will be another topic where the opinions are just too far apart and surely influenced by personal perception. Due to the nature of how the franchise works, all of our interpretations are equally valid, anyways. I suppose all the stuff we already posted will be sufficient for any other readers to form their own opinion, too.

I suppose, but I'm not sure how this can be interpreted as anyone dying, when no mention of what happens when the ship is fired upon even occurs. That strikes me as pure inference, unless there is more data I am somehow missing?

Kanluwen wrote:Before the Imperium started pulling the defenses he worked so diligently to establish, everything was hunky-dory. It's not even like the guy chose to just say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day because an Inquisitor was mean to him.

When did GW add THAT to the Badab War fluff?

The original fluff was that yes, indeed, he did more or less say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day - although there's no indication that an Inquisitor had anything to do with it. Actually, there was the minor detail of the Imperium realizing that something was wrong, sending forces to go investigate, getting involved in a shooting war with him, having a couple of chapters get involved on Huron's side because they didn't realize he was in the wrong, and finally Huron's piracy of the shipping of yet another space marine chapter finally causing the chapters at large to realize that Huron was the bad guy and bringing in enough marines to crush him.

Only after all of that did he finally run off to Spikymarine Land.

The Ministrorum is not known for been diplomatic or subtle either, they want it done their way, period.
So if the ecclesiarchy sent some clerics to Fenris to investigate those would have surelly acted all high and mighty with the Wolves and the way I see it, they got it lucky with warning shots heh

Can I just say, you know your argument is unlikely to get anywhere when it's gone down to the 'multiple-mini-quotes' stage...

---------

Lynata wrote:Oh, I don't claim those priests had any approval (although they may have had the consent of the Ecclesiarch, who is at least one High Lord)

Ummm...

Lynata wrote:Well, that's your opinion. The SW's alleged "massive support" obviously didn't prevent the High Lords from sanctioning an Ecclesiarchal attack on their planet.

Being a First Founding Chapter undoubtedly grants some clout, but it shouldn't (in my opinion) grant total immunity. And at the end of the day, the Space Wolves are the one and only Chapter that keeps getting attention by regularly screwing with the IoM whilst not having to suffer consequences. They let the entire Imperium look like a pushover. I'm totally okay with them remaining in the loyalist fold, they're a fan-favorite after all - I'm just saying that GW could at least either tone down the rebellious attitude a bit or hint at an ongoing investigation with potentially grave results (which will simply never matter in the timeline of the game). My thoughts on the subject, anyways.

I thought this whole thing was settled anyway, after what was pretty much a realisation that the Space Wolves weren't really the aggressors or at the very least the only ones to blame. Going in, accusing a 1st founding Chapter (that led the defence in both the 1st war for Armageddon & the 13th Black Crusade, as well as other numerous campaigns) of wrong-doing is a pretty big accusation to make, particularly to one such as the Space Wolves, let alone then doing it with a blatant display of force (the 2nd time)...

I don't get why you think they may not "remain in the loyalist fold", or how they are "regularly screwing with the IoM", or how "they let the entire Imperium look like a pushover". Honestly, Lynata, if you could tell me your reasoning for these thoughts, I'd love to know.
I'm not a relentless SW fanboy, I just genuinely don't see much basis behind these claims.

Connor MacLeod wrote:As I recall things, accusations of worshipping "Pagan gods" - eg anyone NOT the Emperor, is heresy. [... ]This also amounts to telling the Wolves that the way in which they regard their Primarch and Emperor is wrong, and Astartes regardless of the Chapter do not take well to people belittling their Primarchs and practices.

The Codex didn't say anything like that, though - like Kan, you presume. It is just as likely that they didn't even get a chance to say anything because they were fired upon as soon as they got in range - even more if it really was a ship (see below). Personally, I think contact was made, but in a manner that was neither "properly submissive" (in the ways of the Wolves) nor as arrogant and demanding as you think - the golden medium, so to say. At least I don't have reason to believe otherwise.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The quote said nothing about anyone actually dying from being fired on though. If the Wolves had wiped out the delegation entirely, then why did the Ecclesiarchy return and try to force an invasion? The fact they return a year later suggests someone got away to tell the story, and the context makes it clear their ship was fired upon (they were still in orbit, they never reached the ground.)

I actually took it in a way that the Wolves did not fire upon a ship but on a bunch of people as they were walking up to their gates (with their ship then making off). I can see now how it could be interpreted either way, however, depending on the angle they approached the planet from, and perhaps also depending on whether you believe the Ecclesiarchy has its own ships.

As for the news, there's always a way to explain it. There could have been escorts, or there could have been a last-minute transmission by the ship's astropath. Or maybe the Ecclesiarchy simply assumed the worst when a ship sent to investigate rumours of heresy didn't return. Or, yes, if it really was the ship, maybe it was only damaged but not destroyed. Whatever it was, it was subjected to some direct hits from pretty impressive weapons.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Also I dispute the notion that the Ecclesiarchy is the representation of the IOM as a whole.

Well, they're no Inquisitors of course, but they certainly have influence - given that they have a seat on the Council of High Lords and have Ecclesiarchal clergy and operates on each Navy vessel, in each Guard regiment and in many noble houses, not to mention the countless Confessors tending to the faithful masses of commoners. Generally, I'd consider all high officials of the Imperial Adepta as Imperial envoys (regardless of whether it's an Ecclesiarchal quorum, a senior Arbiter or an Adeptus Terra tithe assessment clerk), but I suppose this is a matter of semantics.

Just Dave wrote:I don't get why you think they may not "remain in the loyalist fold", or how they are "regularly screwing with the IoM", or how "they let the entire Imperium look like a pushover". Honestly, Lynata, if you could tell me your reasoning for these thoughts, I'd love to know.

Eh, it's just that they are the one and only Chapter where such stories of defiance and outright armed conflict keep popping up. Then there's also the rampant geneseed-mutation, and now apparently pagan beliefs beyond the normal scope of Astartes deviation from the Creed. Other Marine Chapters have been excommunicated for less. Let's just say I'm criticizing the lack of consequences - it really doesn't mesh with my interpretation of the power and authority of various Imperial organizations (first and foremost the Inquisition itself) and thus the entire Imperium.

If none of you have a problem with that kind of history and really consider the Wolves above any kind of retribution, alright. As I said, none of our interpretations can be wrong, regardless of what any of us will post. I shouldn't have gotten involved into the debate so deeply just because of my personal perception, but I suppose this is one of my character flaws. I'll try to refrain from adding promethium to this thread's fire any further from now on.

Lynata wrote:I actually took it in a way that the Wolves did not fire upon a ship but on a bunch of people as they were walking up to their gates (with their ship then making off). I can see now how it could be interpreted either way, however, depending on the angle they approached the planet from, and perhaps also depending on whether you believe the Ecclesiarchy has its own ships.

Just Dave wrote:I don't get why you think they may not "remain in the loyalist fold", or how they are "regularly screwing with the IoM", or how "they let the entire Imperium look like a pushover". Honestly, Lynata, if you could tell me your reasoning for these thoughts, I'd love to know.

Eh, it's just that they are the one and only Chapter where such stories of defiance and outright armed conflict keep popping up. Then there's also the rampant geneseed-mutation, and now apparently pagan beliefs beyond the normal scope of Astartes deviation from the Creed. Other Marine Chapters have been excommunicated for less. Let's just say I'm criticizing the lack of consequences - it really doesn't mesh with my interpretation of the power and authority of various Imperial organizations (first and foremost the Inquisition itself) and thus the entire Imperium.

If none of you have a problem with that kind of history and really consider the Wolves above any kind of retribution, alright. As I said, none of our interpretations can be wrong, regardless of what any of us will post. I shouldn't have gotten involved into the debate so deeply just because of my personal perception, but I suppose this is one of my character flaws. I'll try to refrain from adding promethium to this thread's fire any further from now on.

Personally, I interpreted as shot at their ships whilst they were in space, much more easy to 'warn' then, whilst I can't imagine A) the wolves wanted them on Fenris at all, and B) landing on Fenris isn't the easiest thing in the world...

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Again, what evidence is there "that they are the one and only Chapter where such stories of defiance and outright armed conflict keep popping up"?! There's 2 (related, so what? 1.5) incidents with the ecclisiarchy wanting to investigate Fenris - where, to be fair, many Chapters would tell 'em to shove it - or when they opposed the Inquisition's plan to have "all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps, with their world being re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war". That's all that's really noted AFAIK and the 2nd one's not really a bad thing.
The Space Wolves aren't known for opposing Imperial decrees for fun, they typically do it because they believe it opposes the interests of humans themselves (rather than the Imperium itself).

You mention other Chapters being excommunicated for less; these other Chapters didn't so doggedly defend humanity like the Space Wolves do, nor would they have the reputation of the Space Wolves. The IoM has nothing to gain from losing the Wolves, they really don't. Furthermore, the Space Wolves are one of the most popular and arguably most powerful Chapters in the Imperium.

The gene-seed, whilst a problem, is not something isolated to the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and more all suffer from similar problems and the Blood Angels arguably even more so. The MotW is something the Space Wolves work to control and have REALLY worked to remove all-together, whilst it also isn't obvious to outsiders - who typically either don't know of it, or think of it as a myth brought about by their feral reputation/appearance and Chapters name. Most Chapters have problems with their geneseed, very very few don't. Again, the Space Wolves is clearly a problem, but it can also help and doesn't really concern the Imperium...

Finally, you mention "power and authority of various Imperial organizations"; this power doesn't typically extend to (any) Space Marines. They are autonomous organisations and don't really follow the chain of command within the Imperium itself, like other organisations such as the IG or Ecclisiarchy might. Just look at the Dark Angels for example.

I'm not saying you're wrong or you shouldn't necessarily partake in the discussion/thread, I just feel a lot of your claims are either exaggerated or without sufficient basis in all honesty. The Space Wolves come under a lot of flak (clearly), and IMHO this is often unwarranted or inaccurate...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Huron was a megalomaniac like another famous H-named person was a humanitarian.

Before the Imperium started pulling the defenses he worked so diligently to establish, everything was hunky-dory. It's not even like the guy chose to just say "Screw it! Let's go spiky!" one day because an Inquisitor was mean to him.

Sane, rational folk don't decide to sacrifice planets worth of people so that they can become a daemon-god.

You are majorly underestimating the upside to becoming an immortal daemon-god. Not to mention that sane and rational is not the same thing as ethical and moral.


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Just Dave wrote:The gene-seed, whilst a problem, is not something isolated to the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and more all suffer from similar problems and the Blood Angels arguably even more so. The MotW is something the Space Wolves work to control and have REALLY worked to remove all-together, whilst it also isn't obvious to outsiders - who typically either don't know of it, or think of it as a myth brought about by their feral reputation/appearance and Chapters name. Most Chapters have problems with their geneseed, very very few don't. Again, the Space Wolves is clearly a problem, but it can also help and doesn't really concern the Imperium...

Well, there's problems with the geneseed, and then there's problems with the geneseed. Among the First Founding, the Wolves and Blood Angels both have very serious issues with their geneseed. Not gamebreakers, but the Wulfen Curse and the Red Thirst and Black Rage are decidedly worse than goofy skin color (Salamanders and Raven Guard) or missing giblits (Fists and probably others).

Not nearly enough to get them purged, but I wouldn't call the geneseed issues of the Wolves and BA 'similar' to what other First Founding legions face.

If a decree to do something stupid about the Space Wolves ever came down the pike, I'm sure they'd stick Mutant! in among the charges, but lets face it, in the IoM, there ain't nothing like a good mutant hunt to get the blood flowing.

Lynata wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:As I recall things, accusations of worshipping "Pagan gods" - eg anyone NOT the Emperor, is heresy. [... ]This also amounts to telling the Wolves that the way in which they regard their Primarch and Emperor is wrong, and Astartes regardless of the Chapter do not take well to people belittling their Primarchs and practices.

The Codex didn't say anything like that, though - like Kan, you presume. It is just as likely that they didn't even get a chance to say anything because they were fired upon as soon as they got in range - even more if it really was a ship (see below). Personally, I think contact was made, but in a manner that was neither "properly submissive" (in the ways of the Wolves) nor as arrogant and demanding as you think - the golden medium, so to say. At least I don't have reason to believe otherwise.

You clearly have little experience with religious nutjobs and priests. I'm born and raised in Rome, here those kind of people are everywhere and they act like the own the universe, now I let you imagine how arrogant can be someone that actually does. The ecclesiarchy has no manner to speak ok, they believe they ARE the truth and the rightful, and every other imperial organization can't wait to get rid of them, fact is, they are at war with pretty much all the other HLoT you know. Knowing this kind of people they probably DEMANDED access to their planed and DEMANDED access to the population for holy screening or something. Keep in mind that this has most likely happened while in space when they asked permission to land. You can not simply go where you want and just land, you ask authorization and so forth.

daveNYC wrote:

Just Dave wrote:The gene-seed, whilst a problem, is not something isolated to the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Salamanders and more all suffer from similar problems and the Blood Angels arguably even more so. The MotW is something the Space Wolves work to control and have REALLY worked to remove all-together, whilst it also isn't obvious to outsiders - who typically either don't know of it, or think of it as a myth brought about by their feral reputation/appearance and Chapters name. Most Chapters have problems with their geneseed, very very few don't. Again, the Space Wolves is clearly a problem, but it can also help and doesn't really concern the Imperium...

Well, there's problems with the geneseed, and then there's problems with the geneseed. Among the First Founding, the Wolves and Blood Angels both have very serious issues with their geneseed. Not gamebreakers, but the Wulfen Curse and the Red Thirst and Black Rage are decidedly worse than goofy skin color (Salamanders and Raven Guard) or missing giblits (Fists and probably others).

Not nearly enough to get them purged, but I wouldn't call the geneseed issues of the Wolves and BA 'similar' to what other First Founding legions face.

If a decree to do something stupid about the Space Wolves ever came down the pike, I'm sure they'd stick Mutant! in among the charges, but lets face it, in the IoM, there ain't nothing like a good mutant hunt to get the blood flowing.

I agree. I admit, I didn't do a good enough job of acknowledge that, but yes I agree, that it's worse than most, although still not purge-worthy...

One thing to also keep in mind is that the Space Wolves' geneseed mutation appears to have been present for 10,000 years with little or no change. It's not something that's steadily gotten worse over millenia, as is the case with the Blood Angels' Red Thirst problems. There's no indication that more and more wulfen mutations are occuring. That doesn't completely innoculate them from any fanatical zealot who might show up on their front doorstep. But it does suggest that those who are in the know in the Imperium have likely been aware of the problem for a very, very, very long time.

It also explains why Space Wolf geneseed doesn't get used to create successor chapters. Is there any other First Founding chapter that's only had one successor? Even the Blood Angels have multiple successors.


So while mutation may likely be an official explanation provided if the Imperium ever decides to purge the Space Wolves, it likely will have little to do with the real reason.

The existance of Salamander successor chapters is iffy, at best. Which is really kind of strange considering that there's really no reason not to want more Salamander type chapters roaming around. The Imperium doesn't seem to have much of a problem creating more emo vampire marine chapters.

Lynata: at this point I don't see much purpose in arguing. It comes down entirely to whether or not the quote means the Wolves killed some Priests or not, as well as whether or not they were offending them (neither the deaths nor the accusations of heresy are actually stated, but one or the other may be implied there.) And without further evidence it can't be resolved on the evidence as is.

Russ Mandarin wrote:So if the sons of Russ continue to piss off the Inquisition to the point that one Rogue Inquisitor begins to get a lot of support behind the idea of dealing with them(Excommunication and the like). How far do you think it would progress? Would the Grey Knights be forced to get involved pr would they try to withhold their support?

My opinion: The Space Wolves can defend Fenris pretty well but I think they would definitely need allies which I imagine all the loyal founding chapters would fulfill but then you would have another civil war which would be pretty hard on the IoM. It could get pretty serious but I think the high lords of terra would side against the Inquisition because the conflict has the potential to leave the Imperium even weaker then it initially was after the Horus Heresy.

The simple answer is: it will not happened. HLoT and Inquisition will not allow for a original Legion Chapter to go Excuminate Traitor because some Inquisitor get in argument with them. They are not stupid to lose support of over 1000 Astartes when they need them the most.

Bottom line is: ask yourself this - While Space Wolves have around 1200 Astartes how large force can the big summon ( That include AM, IG, SoB, other Astartes chapters etc... ).

How large a force can the Inquisition summon?

Entire Crusade fleets and armies. Titan legions. Space Marine Chapters. Entire Orders of the Sisters of Battle. The entire populace of worlds as militia forces. The Naval strength of an entire Segmentum. Anyone and everything short of the God-Emperor, Himself.

There is no one and nothing an Inquisitor cannot call upon, either by force of will, personal charisma, long-standing alliances or agreements, or the weight and authority of the rosette.

I don't think it would ever get to that point. They're a founding chapter, and I doubt the inquisution will ever give them more than a slap on the wrist

However. If it did come to that, the SW would be toast :3

What about the war against Angron? Logan swore vows of vengeance that one day will be met after what the Adeptus Administratum did to the people after that fight.


that could easily start a civil war with the wolves. and after all at some point in time Logan will have to live up to his vows.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I don't think it would go anywhere. Space Wolves are a first founding.. EG they descend directly from the Great Crusade, and they have a long history which ties them to the Imperium. While all Chapters are supposed to be equal (in theory) the fact is First Foundings tend to have more power and influence due to history and Imperial Propoganda compared to other Chapters, and the Space Wolves (and Blood angels, and probably the Dark Angels and other first foundings) benefit from this. More than that Logan Grimnar is perhaps one of the more active, influential, and damn kickass Chapter Masters out there - he and the Space Wolves have been heavily involved in a great many of the major conflicts of the 41st Millenium, and they quite likely have built up as much goodwill (and contacts/influence) in the Imperium as they have made enemies (like their close links to House Belisarius.) There's also the politics angle. an Inquisitor's authority, despite being theoretically limitless, is in truth not really so - due to politics, perceptions of strength, standing in the Inquisition, etc. A single Inquisitor of no great fame trying to bring down a First Founding Chapter is probably not going to go well. Hell probably not even a Sector-levle Inquisitor Lord. Someone at the segmentum or higher level? Quite possibly, but I suspect that at that level other matters become important.

I'd also suspect that trying to toss out the Space Wolves would be coming dangerously close to opening the whole "history of the Horus Heresy" can of worms in addiiton to undermining millenia of Imperial Space Marine Propoganda.

Not only that, but is it any coincidence that the SW are based on a world close to the EoT (say, to help protect the IoM)?

TechMarine1 wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:I don't think it would go anywhere. Space Wolves are a first founding.. EG they descend directly from the Great Crusade, and they have a long history which ties them to the Imperium. While all Chapters are supposed to be equal (in theory) the fact is First Foundings tend to have more power and influence due to history and Imperial Propoganda compared to other Chapters, and the Space Wolves (and Blood angels, and probably the Dark Angels and other first foundings) benefit from this. More than that Logan Grimnar is perhaps one of the more active, influential, and damn kickass Chapter Masters out there - he and the Space Wolves have been heavily involved in a great many of the major conflicts of the 41st Millenium, and they quite likely have built up as much goodwill (and contacts/influence) in the Imperium as they have made enemies (like their close links to House Belisarius.) There's also the politics angle. an Inquisitor's authority, despite being theoretically limitless, is in truth not really so - due to politics, perceptions of strength, standing in the Inquisition, etc. A single Inquisitor of no great fame trying to bring down a First Founding Chapter is probably not going to go well. Hell probably not even a Sector-levle Inquisitor Lord. Someone at the segmentum or higher level? Quite possibly, but I suspect that at that level other matters become important.

I'd also suspect that trying to toss out the Space Wolves would be coming dangerously close to opening the whole "history of the Horus Heresy" can of worms in addiiton to undermining millenia of Imperial Space Marine Propoganda.

Not only that, but is it any coincidence that the SW are based on a world close to the EoT (say, to help protect the IoM)?

Kind of. It's a bigger coincidence that Russ's gene seed seems to only like Fenrisians.