Run across a few interesting things of late whilst surfing the internet. So to speak, a few academically/scientifically verified things that would seem to indicate our knowledge of the world may not be complete. I'm far from a conspiracy nut, but these are genuinely interesting and though provoking.

The first of these is the Antikythera Mechanism:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Tl;dr version:-

-It's a device recovered from a shipwreck off the Greek coast.
-Dated to about 150 BC.
-Is a tremendously sophisticated set of mechanisms, equivalent to a Swiss Clock from two millenia later. Far more complex than anything else known of the period.
-was capable of compensating for leap years, despite predating the first calendar that took these into account by a hundred years
-Accurately calculates astronomical data with regards to the movement of heavenly bodies.

The catch? This predates Newton and his theories of gravity by quite a long time. Humans in this period did not understand how and why heavenly bodies moved, nor understand the principles of why they did so. So precisely how does it do so? Some scientists think that this is simply a byproduct of the machine, and that it wouldn't have been used in such a way originally. I'll emphasise 'some' here, they're actually in the minority.

Interesting, either way, if simply for the fact that it pretty much revolutionises the concepts of how technologically capable the Greeks were. I mean, its actually considered to be complicated enough to be technically considered a computer.


Secondly, is the WOW! Signal:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal

Tl;dr version:-

-A radio signal detected from space in 1977 at the Big Ear Radio Telescope.
-Lasted for 72 seconds.
-Came from a location with no planets or stars, in other words, dead space.
-Initially thought to be some sort of bizarely misdirected feedback of a reflected transmission from Earth.
-Chap who detected it set out to prove this was the case (wanted to disprove any chance of it being aliens to shut nutjobs up).
-Basically failed to do so, and 99% proved that this could not be the case, eventually forcing him to reluctantly admit the tremendous unlikelihood of this being the case.

ET stories are the food of nutjobs around the world. I'm not saying anything is or isn't the case here. Nonetheless, the science involved is very interesting. I read a paper by the chap in question who found the WOW signal, before and afterwards. He actually sounds quite peeved later on he couldn't prove it to be a reflected earth transmission. Aliens or not, he read like one annoyed scientist.


Finally, I give you the Quackers:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quacker_(sound)

Tl;dr version:-

-In the 1970's.
-Soviet subs detected some bizare quacking noises in a certain region of the Arctic Ocean.
-The origin of these noises was undetectable on sonar.
-Application of the Doppler Shift (figuring out the speed of a noise by its frequency) indicated the origin of the noises was moving up to 200km/ph.
-The generator of these noises was detected circling the crafts that detected it/them
-When sounds were broadcast back at it, the origin of the noises shifted its own frequency or moved about, showing a clear reaction to the broadcast sounds.
-They began to crop up all over the place, including the North Sea, so the Soviets formed a Joint Commission with the Royal Navy, which proved completely inconclusive.
-The detection of these quackers increased for a period of time, and then began to slowly decrease.
-They gave up in the eighties trying to figure out what it was and monitoring it.

This is the one that interests me the most. Here's my thinking.

-The origin of the noises reacted to sounds being broadcast back at it/them. This implies some sort of sentience or recognition, be it marine life, or constructed machine.
-The noises cropped up all over the place. Seriously. This implies against it being a single experimental military craft being detected. It would have to be an operational craft if it were of US or Soviet origin, and there would have to be multiple copies of them. The odds of such a vessel not surfacing in the public knowledge forty years later is slim.
-It didn't show up on sonar. I don't know if that's possible today, but it wasn't back then. Something else to weigh against it being a US or Soviet device.
-It would have had practically no engine noise. Something that I know IS capable today, but again, not so certainly back then.
-It/they were travelling at 200 km/ph. Underwater. That is an insane speed. Let me put it in perspective. A killer whale, the fastest known marine life, moves at 35 km/ph. The fastest man built submarine today( the Alfa Class) only moves at 76 km/ph. If this were a man made device from forty years ago, the engines would have surfaced by now, because they would be a massive order of a magnitude more powerful than anything we currently have on our boats.


From this, it is possible to conclude that it is very, very unlikely it was a US or Soviet machine. The sheer speed alone makes it unlikely to be some kind of marine life. Compared with the lack of showing up on sonar, I'd say that makes it virtually impossible its an animal. It can't be dismissed as a mere machine malfunction, these 'quacks' were detected by the Soviet and Royal Navies in various locations across the North and Arctic Seas, and by different vessels.

That only leaves the option its a made device/machine in excess of technology we quite possibly possess today.

Such a thought makes me uncomfortable, simply because I'm far from a conspiracy nut, and I dislike the idea of anything being around to challenge human dominance. You show me a pic of a UFO or Nessie, and I'll laugh at you, and demand proper scientific readouts before we even talk.

Thing is though, for this one, the data is there. It's fact. And I'm not sure I like it......

Don't worry, be happy.

Personally I just put these kinds of things out of my mind. I have enough real gak to worry about.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:Don't worry, be happy.

Personally I just put these kinds of things out of my mind. I have enough real gak to worry about.

Congratulations, you've found the secret to happiness. Personally, I've discovered so much about what I thought was real in the last twenty years that actually was a lie or illusion that now I have developed the ability to compartmentalize to such a degree that it's like I have three or four complete realities going on in my head at any given time. I pick and choose from them like music to make up a playlist. I'm not exactly happy, but I am well entertained.

There are several stories about unknown objects parading around military vehicles and bases:

There were several instances in the Cold war on both sides when a missile or nuclear device was being tested,an object would appear in the airspace over the base and suddenly the test controls would malfunction, fighters would scramble and then the object would disappear...the test would be rescheduled and the object would appear again and feth up the controls right when it was supposed to launch...There are records (a few anyway, usually in these cases the first official reports are changed by the government) and instrument readouts that verify these things as actual objects and not just tricks of the camera or light.

There was another story in the fifties when a B-29 was over the gulf and something approached it going 5,000 mph. This was verified by the bomber's radar operator and the bright object even hovered around the aircraft for a few minutes before blasting off again at speeds never recorded for ANY aircraft then or now.

Im quite open to these kind of things ( well with some dissapointment if they turn out to be hoax )

But im all for the idea of lost technology and knowledge.
I mean just because something wasnt officially made into a formula or a book doesnt mean there are people that thinks they exist.

warpcrafter wrote:
Congratulations, you've found the secret to happiness. Personally, I've discovered so much about what I thought was real in the last twenty years that actually was a lie or illusion...

Are you sure you didn't create the illusion by determining it to be one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:
The first of these is the Antikythera Mechanism:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Of the three you listed, this is probably the most easily explained because we have textual references to similar mechanisms existing at proximal times.

Also, the notion that we have lost knowledge, for example theories of gravity, is not new Then there's the issue of popular misunderstand, or progressive disdain (ie. we're alive after they died, so we're better). Even Aristotelian gravity is more complex, and accurate, than its often given credit for.

Ketara wrote:
Secondly, is the WOW! Signal:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal

Clearly the result of S.R. Hadden's plots.

Otherwise, the Wow! Signal is a case of the absence of data preventing a conclusion.

Ketara wrote:
Finally, I give you the Quackers:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quacker_(sound)

Sean Connery defected from the Soviet Union, and was forced to take Alec Baldwin on board in order to be accepted by his intended port of call: Newfoundland. The "quacking" sound was in fact Mr. Connery cackling at the acting ability of Mr. Baldwin.

I don't beleive anything unless you provide blurry, obscure photos.

YOU HEAR THAT!?! BLURRY OBSCURE PHOTOS!

Slarg232 wrote:I don't beleive anything unless you provide blurry, obscure photos.

YOU HEAR THAT!?! BLURRY OBSCURE PHOTOS!

I'm right their with you Slarg...

I mean, that's how we know the Lock Ness monster is real...and bigfoot

Slarg232 wrote:I don't beleive anything unless you provide blurry, obscure photos.

YOU HEAR THAT!?! BLURRY OBSCURE PHOTOS!

You want photos of soundwaves and radio waves?

Slarg232 wrote:I don't beleive anything unless you provide blurry, obscure photos.

YOU HEAR THAT!?! BLURRY OBSCURE PHOTOS!

You are in luck Slarg. I happen to be an expert on BOP's. Im a BOPologist if you want to get technical... Let me present you with a few of my choice favorites.

This first one is the infamous "building with lipstick taken back in '04.

This one is the aliens dancing around their space ship. Im not sure when it was taken and was sent to me by a colleague. You can clearly see the xenos dancing around their hovering space craft as it emits a strong field of white light.

This one has baffled the BOP community for many years. We havent foggiest clue of what this could be.





Anyway back on topic. OP that Antikythera Mechanism is very interesting. It doesn't surprise me that the Greeks would be the ones to make something like this, Technological whizbangs they were.

Ketara wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:I don't beleive anything unless you provide blurry, obscure photos.

YOU HEAR THAT!?! BLURRY OBSCURE PHOTOS!

You want photos of soundwaves and radio waves?

Pics or it didn't happen.

It isn't necessary to have a theory of gravity to make a machine to predict by clockwork the motion of the planets. It can be done using geometry, which the Greeks were pretty good at.

A killer whale, the fastest known marine life, moves at 35 km/ph.

Not sure where you got that "fact". A sailfish can hit over 110KPH/65MPH.

CptJake wrote:

A killer whale, the fastest known marine life, moves at 35 km/ph.

Not sure where you got that "fact". A sailfish can hit over 110KPH/65MPH.

Only when it's going to jump. I'm talking about pure underwater movement here.

Mako sharks move faster than 35kph, completely underwater.

http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/topics/p_shark_speed.htm

Holy mother. I've heard of the first one. The last two eluded me up until now. The second one sounds like something else I've heard of.... Something like a gigantic whale sound off the coast of chile. Oh well.

I've been hearing a lot about haarp lately.

Oh lord, what theories are going around about HAARP now?

That it's Muse's Live Album?

all 3 are very very cool!

Antikythera Mechanism: its function or purpose is actually not in the least bit amazing or impressive. You've kinda missed the point.

The workmanship/metalwork is the only standout attribute. It has gears ratio'd with amazing accuracy only matched in the industrial revolution. How they made the gears is the only mystery i'm afraid.

The part that makes you really think about the Antikythera Mechanism is that it would have changed the world if it wasn't lost in a shipwreck.

I already knew of the WOW signal, but while curious it is not a smoking gun. Now if we had heard it again that would be different...

USOs are not a new phenomena either.

Now then, while there are countless stories from nutjobs, there are still a huge number of strange encounters from reputable and professional sources. Out of all of that, every single strange tale of some encounter, you realize what it would mean it only even one were true?

The first doesn't surprise me, the greeks had steam engines but never thought to use them as such and instead just made balls spin with them.

The second is pretty weird, could be a radiation burst from some distant object perhaps?

The third doesn't surprise me either, the deep oceans (especially near the poles) are a total mystery to us so god knows what is down there.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f48/paranormal-thread-creepy-wiki-articles-other-links-tons-content-1418061/


there is some crazy stuff in that thread, have fun, and careful not to blow your mind

All jokes aside, I actually believe the Ancient Alien stuff.

Goddard wrote:

All jokes aside, I actually believe the Ancient Alien stuff.

he was on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, it was hilarious to say the least

Being a believer in cryptids, and in the vastness of the universe, I think it's quite likely and a little scary that the last two are true.

But I have better things to do than try to figure out the universe- we'll never be able to. We haven't even discovered everything on our own planet! Things just change so quickly, and over such wide spaces...

dogma wrote:...

Ketara wrote:
The first of these is the Antikythera Mechanism:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

Of the three you listed, this is probably the most easily explained because we have textual references to similar mechanisms existing at proximal times.

Also, the notion that we have lost knowledge, for example theories of gravity, is not new Then there's the issue of popular misunderstand, or progressive disdain (ie. we're alive after they died, so we're better). Even Aristotelian gravity is more complex, and accurate, than its often given credit for.
...

But here is the thing, these lost pieces of knowledge changes the advances of technology and understanding later down the road if they were not lost in the first place. A good example of this is Archimedies' The Method of Mechanical Theorems, a work by him on understanding of infinitesimals, the beginnings of elementary Calculus, which came to rise in the 17th century for use by Isaac Newton, but commented on by Archimedies in ~250BC.

While the mechanism may not seem like much today, it could have been the difference between a Isaac Newton of the 15 or 13th century instead of the 17th century.

Zyllos wrote:
But here is the thing, these lost pieces of knowledge changes the advances of technology and understanding later down the road if they were not lost in the first place. A good example of this is Archimedies' The Method of Mechanical Theorems, a work by him on understanding of infinitesimals, the beginnings of elementary Calculus, which came to rise in the 17th century for use by Isaac Newton, but commented on by Archimedies in ~250BC.

While the mechanism may not seem like much today, it could have been the difference between a Isaac Newton of the 15 or 13th century instead of the 17th century.

The same is true of all lost knowledge, though not relative to Newton.

Its a necessary truth that anything which is known can be forgotten. Its simply something you have to take for granted, and then write fictional explorations of what the world would be like if it were different. The "No Dark Ages" thing is quite popular.

Everytime someone calls themself a pro at halo. Turns out to be true sometimes.

also when someone starts talking about something that sounds like utter BS but turns out to be completely true.

Goddard wrote:

All jokes aside, I actually believe the Ancient Alien stuff.

This guy annoys me to no end.

The ancients did a lot of things we modern people won't (not can't, won't) by the simple expedient of incredibly cheap manpower. We simply can't afford the manpower to do the things they took for granted.

Case in point: The Pharoh, the richest man by far in the entire nation, also the absoulte ruler, and the next best thing to divine, says "I want an enormous pyramid." So the priests organize the religous for brute labor, and the Pharoh pays the experts to supervise, and over 20-30 years it all comes together.

Nowadays, we can't get a company to undertake a 20-month project without a bankruptingly-huge down payment. No wonder we can't figure out how we would recreate the wonders of the ancients; we don't think in terms of tens of thousands of workers over entire decades when it comes to getting work done.


And here this guy comes, "We can't do it today, obviously it was aliens!" Way to sell your ancestors short, dude!

Gah. This is why I hate the History channel. Aliens have no place there, but...

Damn you Erich von Daniken. Damn you! I blame you for this!

warpcrafter wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:Don't worry, be happy.

Personally I just put these kinds of things out of my mind. I have enough real gak to worry about.

Congratulations, you've found the secret to happiness. Personally, I've discovered so much about what I thought was real in the last twenty years that actually was a lie or illusion that now I have developed the ability to compartmentalize to such a degree that it's like I have three or four complete realities going on in my head at any given time. I pick and choose from them like music to make up a playlist. I'm not exactly happy, but I am well entertained.

The term we're looking for is cognitive dissonance. It's useful to make you sound smarter than you really are.

That's about all I can contribute here.

LordofHats wrote:Damn you Erich von Daniken. Damn you! I blame you for this!

He's got nothing on David Icke.

Lizard People for the win.

Brother Azul wrote:

Spoiler:

I wouldn't call my self an expert, but I think that this could be a bizarre alien ritual, maybe a funeral or something? notice the white pyramidal shape on the right hand side of the BOP, I think that it is very symbolic of the pain that the "person" in black must have gone through in this transition from life to death

Vulcan wrote:Nowadays, we can't get a company to undertake a 20-month project without a bankruptingly-huge down payment. No wonder we can't figure out how we would recreate the wonders of the ancients; we don't think in terms of tens of thousands of workers over entire decades when it comes to getting work done.


And here this guy comes, "We can't do it today, obviously it was aliens!" Way to sell your ancestors short, dude!

The original motivation behind the ancient aliens stories was from white folk, noticing that it was the ancestors of all kinds of black and brown folk that build all these incredible ancient wonders. They couldn't reconcile their beliefs in their own genetic supremacy with the achievements of other race's civilisations, so they decided all that awesome stuff must have been created by aliens.

It's evolved since then, and the racism has faded into the background. But in the beginning it was there just to explain the shortcomings of our own ancestors.

sebster wrote:

Vulcan wrote:Nowadays, we can't get a company to undertake a 20-month project without a bankruptingly-huge down payment. No wonder we can't figure out how we would recreate the wonders of the ancients; we don't think in terms of tens of thousands of workers over entire decades when it comes to getting work done.


And here this guy comes, "We can't do it today, obviously it was aliens!" Way to sell your ancestors short, dude!

The original motivation behind the ancient aliens stories was from white folk, noticing that it was the ancestors of all kinds of black and brown folk that build all these incredible ancient wonders. They couldn't reconcile their beliefs in their own genetic supremacy with the achievements of other race's civilisations, so they decided all that awesome stuff must have been created by aliens.

It's evolved since then, and the racism has faded into the background. But in the beginning it was there just to explain the shortcomings of our own ancestors.

Can you provide textual evidence or sources for that sebster? That's not a view I've encountered before, and it sounds interesting.

sebster wrote:The original motivation behind the ancient aliens stories was from white folk, noticing that it was the ancestors of all kinds of black and brown folk that build all these incredible ancient wonders. They couldn't reconcile their beliefs in their own genetic supremacy with the achievements of other race's civilisations, so they decided all that awesome stuff must have been created by aliens.

It's evolved since then, and the racism has faded into the background. But in the beginning it was there just to explain the shortcomings of our own ancestors.

I find that a little hard to believe. That may have been a fringe concept, but I doubt it has any connection to the current trend which is a continuation of that from the 1960's and can trace its origin to the growth in the popularity of science-fiction media and amounted to nothing more than a cultural reaction. The ancient aliens bull is a relatively recent phenomena. Sure you can probably find theories going back a long time (The guy who discovered the double helix also proposed that humans originally came from space), but its only in the latter half last century that the idea of ancient aliens coming to Earth and bestowing their awesome stone working skills on us got started.

EDIT: The alien astronaut theory actually comes from science-fiction culture, not racism (is what I'm saying).

One would think that aliens from space could teach us more than how to pile rocks.

Yeah, 'aliens were created by racists' is certainly a new line of thinking for me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah, 'aliens were created by racists' is certainly a new line of thinking for me.

For once, you made me laugh.


Im open minded to the ancient alien theory. They can and do make some rather chin scratching points. And sometimes the truth really can be weirder then fiction. Im not saying that the Pharaohs couldnt use a gak ton of slaves to build pyramids, because that I think is totally how most of the ancient structures were built, the will to do it, and enough slaves to pull it off. But what gets me wondering, is when you have stone slabs that weigh over 20-100 tons, and they are rested on top of a couple other slabs of equal size, and they are perfectly aligned. Yes, today we can move objects that weigh that much, and get their edges lined up perfectly, but we have to use incredibly powerful cranes with hydraulics and steel cables that can handle the weight. They had rope and wooden tools. Does make you wonder just how the feth they pulled it off.

Not to mention alot of the ancients accounts of wars and such, that today we would say really sounded like a flying craft, or rokkits. And theres one place I think in India, that supposedly the gods got into a war, and one of the gods made the Earth shake and spewed great fire from its mouth. And the place is irradiated alot more then it should be, and they also found bodies buried with signs of radiation poisoning. Sure it could of been an asteroid or comet of some kind that was irradiated and it impacted the earth. Dunno, but like I said, makes ya wonder

Ketara wrote:Can you provide textual evidence or sources for that sebster? That's not a view I've encountered before, and it sounds interesting.

Donna Kossy's Strange Creations is a good place to start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:I find that a little hard to believe. That may have been a fringe concept, but I doubt it has any connection to the current trend which is a continuation of that from the 1960's and can trace its origin to the growth in the popularity of science-fiction media and amounted to nothing more than a cultural reaction. The ancient aliens bull is a relatively recent phenomena.

The ancient astronaut theory can trace its origin to the early part of the 20th century. I can assue racism was alive and well at that time.

As I stated above, the revival of this idea has stripped away most of the racist notions, instead relying on a general assumption about the stupidity of our ancestors, and ironically exaggerating the genius of the ancient artifacts. I wouldn't for one second believe that someone who fell for von Daniken's frauds to be racist, but there's no denying the origin of the theory as a way to explain away the achievements of ancient not-white people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah, 'aliens were created by racists' is certainly a new line of thinking for me.

It'd be a new line of thinking for everyone, because it's something you just made up inside your own head.

I didn't say the idea of aliens was made up by racists, I said that aliens as an explanation for ancient wonders found outside of historically white areas had a clear racist origin. No-one spent any time wondering how the greeks built the parthenon, but when it looked like brown people had built the pyramids, well then aliens was surely a more sensible option.

We can't explain where the idea that aliens were created by racists comes from. Therefor, it must have come from aliens.

Ancient alienception?

KingCracker wrote:Im not saying that the Pharaohs couldnt use a gak ton of slaves to build pyramids, because that I think is totally how most of the ancient structures were built, the will to do it, and enough slaves to pull it off. But what gets me wondering, is when you have stone slabs that weigh over 20-100 tons, and they are rested on top of a couple other slabs of equal size, and they are perfectly aligned. Yes, today we can move objects that weigh that much, and get their edges lined up perfectly, but we have to use incredibly powerful cranes with hydraulics and steel cables that can handle the weight. They had rope and wooden tools. Does make you wonder just how the feth they pulled it off.

Some believe that it was actually synthetic stone.

Link.

sebster wrote:As I stated above, the revival of this idea has stripped away most of the racist notions, instead relying on a general assumption about the stupidity of our ancestors, and ironically exaggerating the genius of the ancient artifacts. I wouldn't for one second believe that someone who fell for von Daniken's frauds to be racist, but there's no denying the origin of the theory as a way to explain away the achievements of ancient not-white people.

I think this is trying a bit too hard to inject racism somewhere, frankly.

I'm not saying I agree with the stuff, but a lot of the "Aliens built the Pyramids" stuff comes from the fact that it would be pretty hard to do, according to the engineering "experts" on these shows, even using today's technology.

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm not saying I agree with the stuff, but a lot of the "Aliens built the Pyramids" stuff comes from the fact that it would be pretty hard to do, according to the engineering "experts" on these shows, even using today's technology.

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

I'm pretty sure I've seen aliens mentioned as being involved with Stonehenge. Doesn't that throw a wrench in the "racists made up the aliens" theory?

The whole "aliens built stonehenge" thing is a continuation of the ancient aliens thing that is considerably more recent.

I have heard what sebster mentioned a few times before and it is a perfectly logical conclusion that there was a racial element given when and where the idea came about.

In fact I am more than a little surprised so many people are so defensive over the idea.

Most people have WGS (White Guilt Syndrome).

Got it. So when folks longer ago couldn't explain something as hard to explain as the pyramids, so went with the alien theory, they did so because they were racist.

But more modern folks who use that theory for Stonehenge are just screwballs.

corpsesarefun wrote:In fact I am more than a little surprised so many people are so defensive over the idea.

I for one am not defensive, I just disagree with the idea. I'm sure there are some people that have a racist angle on it, but I can't imagine this is true of the majority of people that subscribe to the idea.

CptJake wrote:Got it. So when folks longer ago couldn't explain something as hard to explain as the pyramids, so went with the alien theory, they did so because they were racist.

But more modern folks who use that theory for Stonehenge are just screwballs.

No, it's that White people of yesteryear couldn't believe that something like the Pyramids or stonehenge were not built by their "Master Race", and so they came up with that they were made by Aliens as a coping method.

The problem with that theory, chowderhead, is that Stonehenge likely would have been built by white people.

Which is why when the theory of "aliens did it" first came about stone henge wasn't mentioned.

So if the Pyramids had been located in, say, Sweden people wouldn't have the same questions?

Monster Rain wrote:The problem with that theory, chowderhead, is that Stonehenge likely would have been built by white people.

No, silly, they were filthy savages.

Filthy savages =/= White people in the past.

I don't know what that means.

Monster Rain wrote:I don't know what that means.

Back in the olden days, if you didn't take tea with 2 lumps, you weren't white.

I think it would have been a very different situation if they had, people tend to notice when things don't fit the pattern considerably more than when they do.

In said racists mind (the racism may not even have been conscious) he saw the pyramids as an abnormallity, the achievements of the greeks (who weren't really white to be honest) was taken to be obvious whereas the people viewed as inferior achieving something was strange.

Stonehenge was built by people that we would recognise as being white europeans. It's not even that old - there are stone houses in the British Isles that pre-date it by around 1000 years.

Stonehenge isn't really comparable to the pyramids anyway to be honest.

In fact stone henge is pretty crap, I live relatively close to it and there are far better stone circles near me.

Nothing the Greeks built is even close in scale to the pyramids.

You don't hear people saying the Forbidden City and Angkor Wat were built by aliens, and the the Chinese and Cambodians certainly aren't white.

Monster Rain wrote:Nothing the Greeks built is even close in scale to the pyramids.

You don't hear people saying the Forbidden City and Angkor Wat were built by aliens, and the the Chinese and Cambodians certainly aren't white.

You've never been around the Internet/'Ancient Aliens" then.

Albatross wrote:Stonehenge was built by people that we would recognise as being white europeans. It's not even that old - there are stone houses in the British Isles that pre-date it by around 1000 years.

So the aliens were there that early, helping the white man stay out of the rain? What were these aliens doing for non-white people at that point? Maybe it is the aliens who are racist?

Chowderhead wrote:No, it's that White people of yesteryear couldn't believe that something like the Pyramids or stonehenge were not built by their "Master Race", and so they came up with that they were made by Aliens as a coping method.

Why would they care? Rome conquered all those non-whites and achieved similar if not greater feats. I'm not saying that there wasn't at some point some racist who suggested aliens did it. I'm saying that theory is not connected to current shenanigans, and that the racist one was never a widespread belief among westerners.

Everything that I've seen about Angkor Wat and Aliens is that the population disappeared, not that it was impossible to be built by humans at the time.

Do you have any links to the contrary?

No sir I do not, I would contend that the western view of china and the far east as a whole at that time was considerably different to it's view of africa.

Possibly.

Still, I would contend that if the Pyramids were somewhere else the same questions would have be raised.

And I agree.

However I do still believe there was a racial element to some prominent advocates of the ancient aliens theory when it first arose (which as far as I know was the mid 20th cenutry).

White people are good at killing loads of dudes though, so, we got that at least.

OH YEAH! In your country killing your dudes and kicking over your sandcastles!

Ketara wrote:

Finally, I give you the Quackers:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quacker_(sound)

Tl;dr version:-

-In the 1970's.
-Soviet subs detected some bizare quacking noises in a certain region of the Arctic Ocean.
-The origin of these noises was undetectable on sonar.
-Application of the Doppler Shift (figuring out the speed of a noise by its frequency) indicated the origin of the noises was moving up to 200km/ph.
-The generator of these noises was detected circling the crafts that detected it/them
-When sounds were broadcast back at it, the origin of the noises shifted its own frequency or moved about, showing a clear reaction to the broadcast sounds.
-They began to crop up all over the place, including the North Sea, so the Soviets formed a Joint Commission with the Royal Navy, which proved completely inconclusive.
-The detection of these quackers increased for a period of time, and then began to slowly decrease.
-They gave up in the eighties trying to figure out what it was and monitoring it.

Quacking is a simple sound, it could be reproduced electronically.

It could appear to be moving at 200kph by stringing a number of quack signal generators on a towed array or boom, it may also possible to make an 'audible illusion' that appears to be doing something it is not.

I suspect that the signals were generated by a western naval intelligence agency for the following purposes:
- Get the Soviet Navy to waste time and money in an investigation. Even the Soviet union cannot have too manty veteran submarine crews. They need to be focused on their real jobs.
- A 'leak test' for want of better description. Generate phenomena worth chatting about and observing who does.
- Hoodwinking Soviet subs into using active broadcast and sonar systems thus giving away their positions and allowing observers to analyse the active sonar signals. This appears to have been successful, getting a sub to give away its immeidate position is useful even in expected peace time because you can better track that sub and record it. The recording used are fed into computer giving a better audible sugniture of the sub type, and the same signal is then listened for by on board computers thus improving sonar efficiency. A lot of clues can also be gleaned by listening to a subs active sonar.
- Royal Navy/Soviet cooperation is an excuse to spy, if you are directing the input you can beter analyse the output. If there is a data exchange the original signals can be compared to Soviet sonar logs, it will tell us far more than our own sonar logs will tell them without said signals.
- It sounds like a jolly good bit of fun, in an tweedy intellectual sort of way, with real Russians to bait to boot! What more could you ask.

This whole set up sniffs of MI6, especially back then. It looks like one of their lateral thinking jobs, that dont appear to do much but can yield a lot. Its a pity that the Uk national culture doesnt encourage thinking of this quality anymore.

corpsesarefun wrote:(which as far as I know was the mid 20th cenutry).

Racism has nothing to do with the rise of the current theory in the 1960's. That got started by Erich von Daniken and his book Chariots of the Gods, which wasn't even about Africa but Asia, the Americas, Stonehenge, and the Indies as well. The earliest author of an articulate ancient aliens idea was Zacharia Sitchin of Planet X/Nibiru fame. His work was not racist, not in the sense you mean anyway. If anything the ancient astronauts idea is most heavily invested in the idea that human intelligence was actually bred into our species through interaction with aliens and certain physical acts. The theory suggests all humanity achieved what it did because of aliens, not just one group.

Monster Rain wrote:I think this is trying a bit too hard to inject racism somewhere, frankly.

At the same time these ancient aliens theories developed there was also a whole host of theories about lost tribes of white people setting up in these locations, building these great monuments before disappearing mysteriously.

So no, it really isn't that much of a stretch at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:I'm pretty sure I've seen aliens mentioned as being involved with Stonehenge. Doesn't that throw a wrench in the "racists made up the aliens" theory?

Only if you don't read what I'm saying.

Stonehenge as an alien thing is relatively new idea in kookland. The idea that white people created it was fine, as was the idea that white people created the Parthenon and all kinds of other ancient stuff.

The ancient alien thing has taken on a life of it's own, and long since distanced itself from its racist origins (as I've said several times now, the ancient alien folk now overstate the achievements of the ancient wonders, in order to justify their aliens theories, ironically enough).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

corpsesarefun wrote:The whole "aliens built stonehenge" thing is a continuation of the ancient aliens thing that is considerably more recent.

I have heard what sebster mentioned a few times before and it is a perfectly logical conclusion that there was a racial element given when and where the idea came about.

In fact I am more than a little surprised so many people are so defensive over the idea.

It is really kind of odd, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:Got it. So when folks longer ago couldn't explain something as hard to explain as the pyramids, so went with the alien theory, they did so because they were racist.

But more modern folks who use that theory for Stonehenge are just screwballs.

Are you actually going to sit there and feign surprise at the idea that people in the late 19th and early 20th century were racist? Are you actually going to sit there and be that ridiculous?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:So if the Pyramids had been located in, say, Sweden people wouldn't have the same questions?

Maybe, maybe not.

As we've seen in the last few decades, the fringe industry of pseudo-science can fuel itself quite happily by people letting to believe exciting stuff about aliens. So it likely could have developed without any orginal need to reconcile racist notions about the world with all the cool stuff that not white people built.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:Why would they care? Rome conquered all those non-whites and achieved similar if not greater feats. I'm not saying that there wasn't at some point some racist who suggested aliens did it. I'm saying that theory is not connected to current shenanigans, and that the racist one was never a widespread belief among westerners.

First up, no-one is saying that there's any strong racist component to the modern day kooks.

Second up, are you claiming that 'aliens did it' was never a widespread belief (in which case I agree) or are you saying that there was no racist component to the majority of early aliens did it beliefs - in which case you're simply wrong.

I think maybe people aren't aware how strong racist beliefs were at the end of the 19th century...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:Racism has nothing to do with the rise of the current theory in the 1960's.

That is what everyone is saying. That theory had it's origins in earlier ideas, which wer considerably more racist.

That got started by Erich von Daniken and his book Chariots of the Gods, which wasn't even about Africa but Asia, the Americas, Stonehenge, and the Indies as well. The earliest author of an articulate ancient aliens idea was Zacharia Sitchin of Planet X/Nibiru fame.

That's the revival of the theory, and yes, that stuff isn't racist.

For the racist origins of the theory you have to look at the stuff written in the late 19th and early 20th century to see it's original, racist component.

sebster wrote:First up, no-one is saying that there's any strong racist component to the modern day kooks.

No one said it wasn't (explicitly) and I hoped to make that clear so we wouldn't have people going around claiming that the current theory is racist. Apparently I failed.

Second up, are you claiming that 'aliens did it' was never a widespread belief (in which case I agree)

I agree as well.

or are you saying that there was no racist component to the majority of early aliens did it beliefs - in which case you're simply wrong.

I'm saying that the belief that "aliens did it" is not an integral aspect of the racism of Western society. That few westerners took aliens an answer to the question. If there's a crazy idea, someone's proposed it somewhere at sometime. It's a given It's just a question of if anyone listened. In this case I don't think anyone did.

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

malfred wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

Citizen of an ancient kingdom that was south of Egypt until Egypt conquered them... lots of gold mines.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

malfred wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

Citizen of an ancient kingdom that was south of Egypt until Egypt conquered them... lots of gold mines.

They're also cultural ancestors to the Numidians, a later North African neighbor of Carthage.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

malfred wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the race of the people involved. I'm sure they don't think that the Ancient Celts or whatever would have been able to do it better than the Nubians or Egyptians.

*raises hand*

What's a Nubian?

Anyway, I had heard of the first, but not the second two. Thanks for the post.

Citizen of an ancient kingdom that was south of Egypt until Egypt conquered them... lots of gold mines.

Sorry, movie reference.

sebster wrote:At the same time these ancient aliens theories developed there was also a whole host of theories about lost tribes of white people setting up in these locations, building these great monuments before disappearing mysteriously.

So no, it really isn't that much of a stretch at all.

Something something correlation, something something causation.

I thought Nubians were from Star Wars 1. Guess you learn something new every day.

malfred wrote:What's a Nubian?

Shut the up!

... and scene.

Coolyo294 wrote:I thought Nubians were from Star Wars 1. Guess you learn something new every day.

That's even funnier given the context of the movie reference.

Indeed.

That was pretty much perfect.

LordofHats wrote:I'm saying that the belief that "aliens did it" is not an integral aspect of the racism of Western society. That few westerners took aliens an answer to the question. If there's a crazy idea, someone's proposed it somewhere at sometime. It's a given It's just a question of if anyone listened. In this case I don't think anyone did.

Sure, it wasn't popularised until von Daniken and co. I guess there was a tougher market for fantastical silliness in the late 19th century.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:Something something correlation, something something causation.

sebster wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I'm saying that the belief that "aliens did it" is not an integral aspect of the racism of Western society. That few westerners took aliens an answer to the question. If there's a crazy idea, someone's proposed it somewhere at sometime. It's a given It's just a question of if anyone listened. In this case I don't think anyone did.

Sure, it wasn't popularised until von Daniken and co. I guess there was a tougher market for fantastical silliness in the late 19th century.

Madam Blavatsky's Theosophical Society would like a word with you.

sebster wrote:Sure, it wasn't popularised until von Daniken and co. I guess there was a tougher market for fantastical silliness in the late 19th century.

It helped when people finally had a firm grasp on what an extraterrestrial was

Orlanth wrote:
This whole set up sniffs of MI6, especially back then. It looks like one of their lateral thinking jobs, that dont appear to do much but can yield a lot. Its a pity that the Uk national culture doesnt encourage thinking of this quality anymore.

Interestingly enough, I was discussing the issue with someone I know, and whilst we came up with that as a possibility, we also come up with the potential for it to be a Soviet exercise, in which they supposedly came to the Navy for help, in order to see precisely what kinds of readings the Navy were capable of getting on their equipment. So reverse reverse psychology, so to speak.

Here's my thoughts on your above points:-

Quacking is a simple sound, it could be reproduced electronically.

No doubt, although it wasn't actually 'quacking' like a duck per se, that was just how the Soviet sailors described the noise.

It could appear to be moving at 200kph by stringing a number of quack signal generators on a towed array or boom, it may also possible to make an 'audible illusion' that appears to be doing something it is not.

The first of these is impossible, simply because the originator of the noises was detected to be 'circling' the submarine. A surface boat would also have been visible to detection equipment. Wherever these noises were coming from was underwater, and moving under independent power (as they slowed, turned, ascended, etc).

I suspect that the signals were generated by a western naval intelligence agency for the following purposes:

I think it definitely could be. The only thing that disturbs this train of thought is the supposed logical impossibility between what was picked up as a matter of record, and the limitations of this theory.

- Get the Soviet Navy to waste time and money in an investigation. Even the Soviet union cannot have too manty veteran submarine crews. They need to be focused on their real jobs.
- A 'leak test' for want of better description. Generate phenomena worth chatting about and observing who does.
- Hoodwinking Soviet subs into using active broadcast and sonar systems thus giving away their positions and allowing observers to analyse the active sonar signals. This appears to have been successful, getting a sub to give away its immeidate position is useful even in expected peace time because you can better track that sub and record it. The recording used are fed into computer giving a better audible sugniture of the sub type, and the same signal is then listened for by on board computers thus improving sonar efficiency. A lot of clues can also be gleaned by listening to a subs active sonar.
- Royal Navy/Soviet cooperation is an excuse to spy, if you are directing the input you can beter analyse the output. If there is a data exchange the original signals can be compared to Soviet sonar logs, it will tell us far more than our own sonar logs will tell them without said signals.
- It sounds like a jolly good bit of fun, in an tweedy intellectual sort of way, with real Russians to bait to boot! What more could you ask.

I can certainly agree with all of these as motivations. I could paint a similar picture for either the US or Soviet intelligence services as being the originators of the 'quackers'.

The only issue I have is that absolutely none of the motivations explain the issues with the capability of the Royal Navy, the US Navy, or the Soviet Navy to perpetrate the scenario as it occurred (no engine noise, imperceptible to sonar, the speeds in excess of what our engines are capable of, and the widespread phenomena at one stage of the game). These are all accomplishments that we know of at the moment as being incredibly difficult/maybe impossible to replicate with current day technology, yet alone that of 40 years ago.

Hence as the title says,.....things you'd usually dismiss as hoaxes....but aren't.

Arkon wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Im not saying that the Pharaohs couldnt use a gak ton of slaves to build pyramids, because that I think is totally how most of the ancient structures were built, the will to do it, and enough slaves to pull it off. But what gets me wondering, is when you have stone slabs that weigh over 20-100 tons, and they are rested on top of a couple other slabs of equal size, and they are perfectly aligned. Yes, today we can move objects that weigh that much, and get their edges lined up perfectly, but we have to use incredibly powerful cranes with hydraulics and steel cables that can handle the weight. They had rope and wooden tools. Does make you wonder just how the feth they pulled it off.

Some believe that it was actually synthetic stone.

Link.

I wasnt talking about the pyramids in Egypt TBH, but that is a pretty interesting link. Thanks for sharing that one.

Monster Rain wrote:Madam Blavatsky's Theosophical Society would like a word with you.

Ha! I had forgotten all about those guys until you just reminded me. Cheers for that.

No problem, buddy.

I'm a student of the strange.

Ketara wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
This whole set up sniffs of MI6, especially back then. It looks like one of their lateral thinking jobs, that dont appear to do much but can yield a lot. Its a pity that the Uk national culture doesnt encourage thinking of this quality anymore.

Interestingly enough, I was discussing the issue with someone I know, and whilst we came up with that as a possibility, we also come up with the potential for it to be a Soviet exercise, in which they supposedly came to the Navy for help, in order to see precisely what kinds of readings the Navy were capable of getting on their equipment. So reverse reverse psychology, so to speak.

This is true, hence the paranoia over even simple things. Russians have long known how to play this game well. Uk and Soviet intelligence had similar mentalities in early years they had 'wheels within wheels' wheras most agencies were on the mentality of 'cops and robbers'. It took a while for others to learn but eventually they caught up with the concept of subtle, however the convoluted mentality remained still a key part of the way British and Russian agencies liked to do things and from what little that reached the public some of the games played on each other were subtle and indirect to the pioint that practically anything could be seen to be taken as part of a plot.

Ketara wrote:

It could appear to be moving at 200kph by stringing a number of quack signal generators on a towed array or boom, it may also possible to make an 'audible illusion' that appears to be doing something it is not.

The first of these is impossible, simply because the originator of the noises was detected to be 'circling' the submarine. A surface boat would also have been visible to detection equipment. Wherever these noises were coming from was underwater, and moving under independent power (as they slowed, turned, ascended, etc).

What you can do with light you can do with sound, only easier and harder to detect, eyes work better than submarines sonar to people fathoming out what is going on.
I do not know how a magician can make something disappear or appear to be elsewhere but rest assured all those tricks are known to intelligence agencies. In WW2 stage magicians were employed to disguise terrain features against aircraft to the extent that the same technique used by a stage magician to make someone disappear was used to make the Suez canal invisible to German bombers.

I would not say you couldnt make a sound appear to circle a submarine. Sonar is cripplingly basic even now compared to our mortal senses. I bet it would be relatively easy to fool a sub with the right set up, apprently for illusionist tricks angle and set up are important and that should be simple to arrange. Especially if sonar is the only sense the target has to go with. Just think of the Russian sub as the mark in a competent magicians stage show, how far could you go with hoodwinking it. Perhaps jokingly equivalent to: "Comrade, they have sawn the Kirov in half!"

Ketara wrote:
I can certainly agree with all of these as motivations. I could paint a similar picture for either the US or Soviet intelligence services as being the originators of the 'quackers'.

Maybe but its not really fits the profile for US mentality, they tend to work on a problem more directly. Though they are aware of this and going against type is a standard tactic.

Ketara wrote:
The only issue I have is that absolutely none of the motivations explain the issues with the capability of the Royal Navy, the US Navy, or the Soviet Navy to perpetrate the scenario as it occurred (no engine noise, imperceptible to sonar, the speeds in excess of what our engines are capable of, and the widespread phenomena at one stage of the game). These are all accomplishments that we know of at the moment as being incredibly difficult/maybe impossible to replicate with current day technology, yet alone that of 40 years ago.

Not beyond the possibility of 'stage' illusion. Its not what happened it its what appearted to happen, and with a sonar signal that leaves a lot of room for some jiggery pokery.

So Orlanth........your logic is that even though you don't know how it could be done, and how it defies all apparent science, you're sure it could be?

Not sure I go with you there. Your reasoning on it being some sort of illusion jiggery pokery seems to be faith based, rather than logic-based.

Ketara wrote:So Orlanth........your logic is that even though you don't know how it could be done, and how it defies all apparent science, you're sure it could be?

Not sure I go with you there. Your reasoning on it being some sort of illusion jiggery pokery seems to be faith based, rather than logic-based.

Sound and light travel in waves and can be intercepted and redirected. We know for a flat fact that this is the case and that people use optics to decieve, some of the deceptions are very convincing. Audible illusions also occur, a cheap example is a ventriloquist 'throwing' his voice. Making the sound appear like its coming from a dummy carried off by an assistant. Thats an exampe of sound based redirection right there, and thats just a trick for human ears.

Therefore I see little reason why the same cannot be true to a submarine. A submarine is a like a blind man relying entirely on his ears and an internal map to get on in the world. That sounds like quite a vulnerable target to the right sort of trick to me.

Of course I cannot tell you how, just as I cannot tell you how to make the Statue of Liberty disappear. Both quackers and disappearing landmarks are equally incredulous, one occurs why not the other. Are quackers electronic 'ventriloquism', possibly. We have motive, we have the technology to produce the sound. Do we have the skill to add a ventriloquist act to make the sound appear in very peculiar patterns, maybe maybe not, but it is not too far fetched. With multiple playing devices you could make a sound 'jump' about. Can you make a signal appear to move by reflecting it off something similar to how a lot of disappearing acts involve a mirror.

If I knew for sure I probably wouldnt be allowed to say.

Orlanth, I just spend a good half an hour going into the relative science detailing how stealth submarines and sonar work, and outlining the flaws, but then I accidentally erased it. And I genuinely cannot be arsed to type it all out again. *headdesk*


So, to summarise the large interesting post that was just deleted:-

-Ventriloquism is more optical illusion, any sound detecting device would not be fooled.

-Two types of sonar, passive and active.

-passive involves listening for soundwaves, and using the doppler shift to gauge the rough distance away, and speed of a craft.

-active involves emitting soundwaves, bouncing them off things, and building a virtual picture using the echoes.

-Passive sonar detected the quackers, however active could find nothing, an analogy would be hearing a voice, and firing echolocation at the source to find nothing there.

-Anechoic tiles/compartments can cloak submarines to an extent by absorbing sound generated within, and sound bounced off from without.

-The difficulty with applying this as the answer to the Quackers are several, to wit, the ones trialled by the soviet union in the seventies are full public knowledge, they were not in use by the US or Britain during the period, they only obscure sound at long distances (and the ones of the time were considerably less efficient than the ones deployed today), and even presuming for some kind of super tile still not know today, it would only absorb sound, meaning that the craft would still have to be travelling at 200 km/ph, an impossible speed for a sub even now.

-The other sonar countermeasures involve creating a large false signature (clearly not in effect here), reverberation (scattering any active sonar search attempt, not the case here as the sonar was not scattered, it simply picked up nothing), mounting sound generators in anechoic compartments to create misleading sounds (not the case again, no sounds at ALL were picked up by the active sonar, let alone misleading ones).


In short, of the countermeasures and science involved in sonar, none are applicable.

DemO wrote:The original motivation behind the ancient aliens stories was from white folk, noticing that it was the ancestors of all kinds of black and brown folk that build all these incredible ancient wonders. They couldn't reconcile their beliefs in their own genetic supremacy with the achievements of other race's civilisations, so they decided all that awesome stuff must have been created by aliens.

It's evolved since then, and the racism has faded into the background. But in the beginning it was there just to explain the shortcomings of our own ancestors.

Dude clearly your forgetting about stonehenge. Built in Wiltshire England believed to have been erected in around 2500BC in Neolithic Britain. These so called 'white folk' made it and yet people belive that it was also made by aliens, does that make them racist ? I dont get your point. Just because 'Black and Brown folk' made these things doesnt make me as a white man feel inadaquate, and therfore try and discredit there creations. Yet you imply that white folks are jealous so they made up these outlandish claims to make there egos feel better. Race or creed doent even come into it its just hard to explain how any civillisation with such basic tools could create such wonders with which modern accomplishments pale in comparison.

You my friend are confusing doubt with racism.

(edit) Quote got fethed up somehow that was a reply for sebster.

He's already answered this if you go back a page. Now normally I wouldn't take the liberty of telling you this for him, but I would like to say that I for one don't think the Burj khalifa 'pales in comparison' to a bunch of rocks in a field.

Taking all bets folks! Place your bets now for the titanic battle of structures!



vs



My money is on Stone Henge

Oh cmon thats an easy one. The first, anyone can have, as long as you throw enough money at it. The second one.....clearly gravity canceling technology

Ketara wrote:Orlanth, I just spend a good half an hour going into the relative science detailing how stealth submarines and sonar work, and outlining the flaws, but then I accidentally erased it. And I genuinely cannot be arsed to type it all out again. *headdesk*

Done that. It grates doesnt it.

Ketara wrote:
-Ventriloquism is more optical illusion, any sound detecting device would not be fooled.

Ventriloquism was a buzz word used to showe that aubible illusions exist as well as optical ones.

Ketara wrote:
-passive involves listening for soundwaves, and using the doppler shift to gauge the rough distance away, and speed of a craft.

Similar to binocular vision, which can be fooled.

Ketara wrote:
-active involves emitting soundwaves, bouncing them off things, and building a virtual picture using the echoes.

Active sonar can easily be fooled, we normally call fooling active scanning stealth materials technology, though there is more to it than that.

Ketara wrote:
-Passive sonar detected the quackers, however active could find nothing, an analogy would be hearing a voice, and firing echolocation at the source to find nothing there.

If the signal generator was small enough perhaps it might not be detected. It could also help explain a theory.

Ketara wrote:
-The difficulty with applying this as the answer to the Quackers are several, to wit, the ones trialled by the soviet union in the seventies are full public knowledge, they were not in use by the US or Britain during the period, they only obscure sound at long distances (and the ones of the time were considerably less efficient than the ones deployed today), and even presuming for some kind of super tile still not know today, it would only absorb sound, meaning that the craft would still have to be travelling at 200 km/ph, an impossible speed for a sub even now.

A phenomenon appeared to be moving at 200kph, that is different from an actual object moving at 200kph in water.
The latter would send shock waves detectable in seperation to the quack signal, however none were detected. This reinficred the idea that the speed of the signal, was illusory.



This is where my thinking goes. Cut for brevity.

1. Why a signal from an intelligence agency as a likely explanation of origin.

- Good motive to do so has already been established.


2. Can you back this up, in comparison to other claims?

- Yes. The phenomena was detected by soviet naval forces, specifically submarines. it did not appear to be a phenomena of concern to anyone else except briefly the Royal Navy, and that can be explained esily if they were in on it. Genuine phenomena would have been detected by more than one nations submarines and it would have aroused great interest in NATO. Unless they already knew what it was.
to counterpouint this other options do not make sense. Strange geological phenomena would be detectable to all.
Extremely fast moving sea creatures (ignoring the general implausibility for now) would appear to more than just Soviet submarines.
Likewise 'Ducks from Mars' make the least sense. To travel to Earth or to the near surface from some hiden alien oceanic civilisation is far fetched enough, though a popular idea. Its the idea that they reserve contact exclusively for Soviet submarines that is especially incredulous.

Ketara wrote:Your reasoning on it being some sort of illusion jiggery pokery seems to be faith based, rather than logic-based.

No, claiming this phenomena is the work of audible ilusions by intelligence agencies is the logical call, the alternatives are the faith choices.


3. How do we know NATO didnt care, or were even there.

Because at the time the phenomena was ongoing and Soviets heard it frequently enough for it to be of long term concern. This can only mean the signals occured in the Bastion. Soviet submarines sdo not ptrol anywhere else in large numbers and those that do tend to evade all pursuit. the very idea that the Soviets used active sonar indicated that the phenomena existed in their 'patch'. Naval doctrine dictates that a Soviet submarine that is exposed in general waters is expected to evade, certainly not light up its sonar. Submarines in the Bastion on the other hand investigate openly, they are there to defend the Soviet coast and most importantly the rergion of sea the Soviets habitually deployed their strategic missile submarines.

The Bastion was a major gathering point for NATO submarine forces, and is also covered by SOSUS. If something was making a noise there long term Washington would know about it very quickly, so would London.


4. Any reasonable backing to the idea of an 'audible illusion' travelling at 200kph.

yes. We can demonstrate this easily enough. we can create an optical illusion and make it appear to travel at 200kph or more with the flick of a wrist and a light pen. the phenomena being the 'red dot'. the dot of a light pen is a reflected signal this is important.


5. Why are reflected signals a clue?

Most illusion works by reflection. You need two mirrors to give the illusion opf invisibility to an object, three to make it appear to jump elsewhere. An optical illusion and an audible illusuion have similar properties, but based on directed and redicted enemrgy waves, one light the other sound. As submarines see with sonar detectors the analogy is very apt.


6. Ok so if illusions need mirrors where are the mirrors?

All around them. A submarine is surrounded by effective mirrors to sound enemrgy , one is the thermocline, the other the surface. Submarines use these mirrors to see 'bands' of sonar energy beyond their actual range. these same sense can be used to fool them.
a good reason to suggest this is so is because only submarines heard quackers, not surface ships. surface ships like bystanders to a magic event may not be able to see the illusion. Proper placement is important. If out of alignment with the mirrors an illusion wont work. This doesnt mean that large scale objects cannot be fooled, we know the oposite is true. If German bomber squadrons can be prevented from seeing an object as wide as the Suez Canal via obtical illusion techniques then there is plenty of room to work some mid games on a sub trapped in a magicians playpen betwween two collossal oceanic mirrors.


7. Does the signal have any clues as to how this would work?

The fact that the signal is a quack is telling. Its a pulsing signla rather than a continuous signal. So how it moves (if at all) and how it appears to move can be completely unrelated. A good example of this is reel film. 24 frames a second of reel film makes a set of static images appear to come to life as one fluid moving image. Intermittent quacks might work the same way giving a 'cinematic' appearance of movement to a series of static signals.


8. How are the signals placed?

As with the red dot from the light pen its possibly a reflected signal. Sound signals can be channeled in tight channels in a way similar to as sonic 'laser' with a fairly tight reflected sound. Sonar might not be able to pick up what it is because like a red of red light a quack is a simple return signal. Also most telligly all signals have no effective human throughput. To all intents and purposes to a man on a hydrophone all sounds are poor quality mono. Its the boats computer that analyses the quack, and it is not set up to handle this sort of data. The computer tries to anaylse what type of object is making the signal when in fact no object is, at least in the location from where the signal source appears to be.


9. What eventually happened?

The Soviets lost interest in object able to travel 200kph in water. Sorry I do not buy that. Obtaining the technology to make objects capable of travelling 200kph in water would made the next generation of Soviet torpedoes unstoppable.
the only reason to cease any interest is because the Soviets solved or had a solid theory as to what the phenomeon was and that it had no value. This could mean 200kph fauna, but that would reach the press, otherwise it could mean they realised it was a hoax perpetrated by an intelligence agency or other empowered body.

I cannot claim this for certain. But it fits logically by motive and is at a minimum partly plausible and possibly very real. A sonar expert could possibly tell us more. At any rate as the only other candidate explanations are aliens or extremely fast sea creatures this one deserves a second look under Holmesian logic. The above theory holds merit because all others are practially impossible, and this solution is the 'improbable answer that remains', and improbable being unnecessarily harsh.

DemO wrote:Dude clearly your forgetting about stonehenge. Built in Wiltshire England believed to have been erected in around 2500BC in Neolithic Britain. These so called 'white folk' made it and yet people belive that it was also made by aliens, does that make them racist ? I dont get your point.

You need to read the thread, that's been explained. To sum up, the original alien astronaut theories didn't even consider Stonehenge, it just looked at the mysterious wonders in places inhabited by not-white people. It was only with the revival of the theory by von Daniken and others that more and more mysterious things where included, as it was now divorced of the original racist mindset.

Just because 'Black and Brown folk' made these things doesnt make me as a white man feel inadaquate, and therfore try and discredit there creations.

This works as fairly solid evidence you are not living in 1894, but little else.

You my friend are confusing doubt with racism.

I'm not. I'm repeating a common observation made by people who've studied the origins of modern myths.

Orlanth my friend, your logic for motive is impeccable, and goes beyond even what I had considered.

Unfortunately, you still seem to be unable to provide the scientific means to fit the scenario. You've made a lot of generalised comments about laser pens and light refraction based subjects, but haven't actually translated that into actual hard science as to how this occurred in even the most isolated of cases with the quackers.


When I say your logic is faith based, I mean that you use your logic to determine motive, and then use that to determine your opinion, regardless of hard fact backing it up. A suitable analogy would be going after a supposed murderer because he had the most motive to commit the murder, despite him seemingly having an alibi. Sure, the fact he might have made death threats to the murder victim in the past is a reason to have him picked up, but you wouldn't be able to convict on suspicion alone, y'know?


I did a spot more research and managed to grab a few more facts about the case off the web, although like this entire thing, I couldn't personally testify as to its veracity, having never seen the actual primary source material myself.

-Detected only at depths starting at two hundred feet and below.

-Detected initially in the Barents Sea, however, at the height of Quacker detections, they were detected as far as the Atlantic Ocean.

-Were actively detected to 'pursue' craft, not just circle, destroying a theory they were stationary objects.

-Defense Minister Marshal Grechko ordered a special group in Soviet Naval Intelligence to investigate it, suspecting it was a new American mini-stealth submarine.

-Several Soviet intelligence craft were set to record and attempt to interpret the Quackers. The most notable of these was the Khariton Laptev, who was diverted temporarily in its mission after detecting the Soviet K-8 submarine in distress.

-Quackers appeared initially at the start of the 70's, sightings reached their highest in 1975-80, and then began to decrease.

-The joint Commission between the Soviet Academy of Sciences and the Royal Navy operated for a decade (until the early eighties), but eventually disbanded, as their research supposedly proved entirely inconclusive. All material gathered was placed into 'Top Secret' security classification on both ends, where it remains to this day.

-In the nineties, whilst the US Navy was conducting an inspection of the ocean floor, the press reported that they had repeatedly recorded Quacker signals.


Presuming this is accurate information, it actually counters a number of the suppositions you made above, such as:-

-Only detected by Soviet submarines. (The Khariton Laptev was a surface trawler).

-Only detected in Soviet controlled territory.

-The Soviets didn't necessarily lose interest so to speak, it just seems to have been classified quite extensively, both on the Soviet end, and on the Royal Navy, and, now it seems, possibly the US as well.

-Only detected in Soviet controlled territory ( they were detected across the Atlantic as well).



Interestingly enough, another theory I stumbled across was simply some sort of prehistoric dinosaur species still alive deep under the sea (like the goblin shark). There have been enough other USO's such the 'The Bloop' for that to be a plausible alternative, although it wouldn't explain the subsequent security classification.

Ketara wrote:
Unfortunately, you still seem to be unable to provide the scientific means to fit the scenario. You've made a lot of generalised comments about laser pens and light refraction based subjects, but haven't actually translated that into actual hard science as to how this occurred in even the most isolated of cases with the quackers.

Perhaps not, but then I gave enough ideas generalised as they were. I can make a theory by comparing like to like even if without actual proof, that is more than good enough. I am not here to find proof, and it is an unfair bar to set before me, plausibility I have shown, and plausibility is enough. I am a better poltical analyst then I am a physicist anyway.

This whole study is only part oceanography and physics, its also military and politcal history, and it along those lines that I am working this through. As a bit of historical analysis I dont think its bad work. Got any former submariners who want to help with the physics? Pity is due to the subjects sensitivity i dont think we will find anyone other than another 'armchair' who can/will help.

Ketara wrote:
When I say your logic is faith based, I mean that you use your logic to determine motive, and then use that to determine your opinion, regardless of hard fact backing it up. A suitable analogy would be going after a supposed murderer because he had the most motive to commit the murder, despite him seemingly having an alibi. Sure, the fact he might have made death threats to the murder victim in the past is a reason to have him picked up, but you wouldn't be able to convict on suspicion alone, y'know?

No, its analogous to an accused murderer for whome there is no scientific DNA evidence or direct witnesses but who has clear motive supported by multiple corroborating witnesses who saw him at the place and time with the victim and can testify noone else was around. They just didnt physically see the guy doing the murder.
No direct proof per se, but plenty of evidence that would place the case beyond reasonable doubt. Sure a Duck from Mars might have arrived at 200kph, killed the victim and set up the defendant, but dont hold your breath trying to convince a jury on that one.

Ketara wrote:
I did a spot more research and managed to grab a few more facts about the case off the web, although like this entire thing, I couldn't personally testify as to its veracity, having never seen the actual primary source material myself.

Nor will you. Russians are understandably tight lipped. In fact other than the captain and some officers noone will be able to tell exactly where and when phenomena were detected. Its easy to keep secret in a submarine right down to the boats actual position being on a need to know basis.

Ketara wrote:
-Detected only at depths starting at two hundred feet and below.

That fits the pattern, 200ft is about a third of the way to the thermocline, this rings a bell here. I dimly remember a magic trick spoiler on large scale illusions and a the mark being between a third of the way between mirrors or something,anyone know more my Google-fu failed me at the moment. However possibly this means an optimal depth for reflected signals at 200-400ft. I would not be suprised if the maximum depth recorded is not listed; submarine services are tight lipped about how deep subs can go as much as they are about where they go. However it would be interesting if phenomena petered out around 400ft, perhaps with a second band of phenomena below the thermocline.

Ketara wrote:
-Detected initially in the Barents Sea, however, at the height of Quacker detections, they were detected as far as the Atlantic Ocean.

Sounds like the Bastion then. The Bastion extends into the Atlantic, and where it doesn't the perimeter hunter sub patrols are. Possibly this could mean at first the team set up suignals in the middle of the Bastion to ensure we got the Russians attention. Later we didnt have to bother creeping inand out undetected, we could just play mind games from more easily concealable positions in the Atlantic. easy to set up easy to disperse and closer to friendlier waters. Why go the extra mile when we can get the Russians to.

Ketara wrote:
-Were actively detected to 'pursue' craft, not just circle, destroying a theory they were stationary objects.

Stationary objects would be boring and easy to go up to and take a look see. You can easily fit underwater cameras to subs, they may even be standard equipment on some boats.

Ketara wrote:
-Defense Minister Marshal Grechko ordered a special group in Soviet Naval Intelligence to investigate it, suspecting it was a new American mini-stealth submarine.

If it was set up as bait, then consider that part of the mission accomplished. also it means the Russians dismissed Ducks from Mars and ultra fast sea fauna. Smart guys.

Ketara wrote:
-Several Soviet intelligence craft were set to record and attempt to interpret the Quackers. The most notable of these was the Khariton Laptev, who was diverted temporarily in its mission after detecting the Soviet K-8 submarine in distress.

Timewaster box ticked. Also if you want to know which Soviet merchantmen are intelligence craft and which are not see which change course if the sea goes quack.

Ketara wrote:
-Quackers appeared initially at the start of the 70's, sightings reached their highest in 1975-80, and then began to decrease.

Ahh the Winter of Discontent 1980, a funding lowpoint, followed by Thatchers cuts. That helps point to MI6 rather than CIA behind it then. If Carter was paying for it and it appeared to be working, Reagan would not have slowed funding.

Ketara wrote:
-The joint Commission between the Soviet Academy of Sciences and the Royal Navy operated for a decade (until the early eighties), but eventually disbanded, as their research supposedly proved entirely inconclusive. All material gathered was placed into 'Top Secret' security classification on both ends, where it remains to this day.

Or bundled into the case files for the misdirection operation.

Ketara wrote:
-In the nineties, whilst the US Navy was conducting an inspection of the ocean floor, the press reported that they had repeatedly recorded Quacker signals.

Maybe they thought it might work on Yeltsins lot, or the Chinese? Americans like to play with our old ideas, oftimes it ends up with healthy improvements. I wouldn't try it on China though, wrong profile mentality.

Ketara wrote:
Presuming this is accurate information, it actually counters a number of the suppositions you made above, such as:-

-Only detected by Soviet submarines. (The Khariton Laptev was a surface trawler).

I suspected as much when you mentioned it. Actually Ketara this really helps piece the puzzle. Soviet submarines and Soviet trawlers detect quackers. Cool, let me tell you what that means.
While other intelligence craft moved faster and were better for overall spying, trawlers had their advantages. First they actually got some fishing done, wheras other intelligence craft 'exported' cameras and radar sets and 'imported' the same ones home again.
A trawler is able to easily do what an ASW frigate cannot, dump large volumes of hardware into the sea and recover it again, and from the point of view of a spy trawler this is more than just nets. A deployed trawler hears as well as a submarine does, which is a lot better than a towed array or dipping sonar, it will also be able to dip a lot deeper than either and while 'trawling' will run a lot quieter than a frigate normally does.
Khariton Laptev helps identify the parameters of where the signals come from, while some signal leakage is inevitable it might not be enough to be a quack without the mirroring effect.

Ketara wrote:
-Only detected in Soviet controlled territory.

-The Soviets didn't necessarily lose interest so to speak, it just seems to have been classified quite extensively, both on the Soviet end, and on the Royal Navy, and, now it seems, possibly the US as well.

-Only detected in Soviet controlled territory ( they were detected across the Atlantic as well).

According to Admiral Gorshkov much of the Atlantic was, or ought to be Soviet territory. Its not like we or the Yanks don't get the same ideas.

Ketara wrote:
Interestingly enough, another theory I stumbled across was simply some sort of prehistoric dinosaur species still alive deep under the sea (like the goblin shark). There have been enough other USO's such the 'The Bloop' for that to be a plausible alternative, although it wouldn't explain the subsequent security classification.

If anyone prefers to believe in that I don't want to dispel their wish to live in a more magical world than we do. If we had not those yearning ourselves we would not be on Dakka. Stuff like yeti and Nessie hunts are not so much an obsession but a determination not to let go of the fantastical. I would love to believe in lost pleisosaurs of the Barents sea, but I dont have the luxury, my mind is chock full of fantasy as it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:-Were actively detected to 'pursue' craft, not just circle, destroying a theory they were stationary objects.

Fun though it would be this may not be the job for me. When on active duties on sub vs sub exercises (which is what this would be) you have to keep still and quiet. Crew noises can be picked up by other subs at suprising distances. Were I the operator of the emitter making directional quack noises, and here I am presuming that existed, making the wierd sound appear like its chasing a Soviet sub at 200kph.... well lets just say I am finding it funny enough here at my computer, the guys on watch on the sub that day must have had difficulty controlling their mirth when the Russian sub got spooked.

Saying that rolling around on the control deck laughing isn't very British, its just not done, stiff upper lip and all that. First get back to port then settle down in he officers mess with a pink gin and those boffins you invited up from London then you may start rolling around laughing.

Orlanth wrote:

Ketara wrote:
Unfortunately, you still seem to be unable to provide the scientific means to fit the scenario. You've made a lot of generalised comments about laser pens and light refraction based subjects, but haven't actually translated that into actual hard science as to how this occurred in even the most isolated of cases with the quackers.

Perhaps not, but then I gave enough ideas generalised as they were. I can make a theory by comparing like to like even if without actual proof, that is more than good enough. I am not here to find proof, and it is an unfair bar to set before me, plausibility I have shown, and plausibility is enough. I am a better poltical analyst then I am a physicist anyway.

That's fair enough. I'm a postgrad in that sort of field (War Studies), so believe it or not, I'm fully familiar with the sort of argument you're making here. Heck, to be honest, I agree with you to a large extent, I'm not generally a fan of the old 'aliens in submarines' angle.

I just refuse to commit myself to the analysis that it HAS to be the Soviets, the US, or the British playing tricks on each other. I agree it is the most likely possibility, but due to the extent to which the facts are uncorroborated or unexplainable by physical sciences (and they are, despite your repeated attempts to link it to light refraction), and known technological capacities of the era (and today), I'm going to keep an open mind on the topic.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the 'dinosaur' argument though. When you jump to the conclusion that that view is just by people who 'want to believe' as well, you're forgetting just how many interesting things have been found over the years. Goblin sharks, coelacanth; heck, its entirely possible that at those sorts of depths, there's a lot of marine life we don't even know about capable of generating these types of signals. I mean, bats use echolocation, as do dolphins and whales, its not too far a cry to presume that there could be some sort of other marine life capable of similar feats. The only thing that renders it unlikely would be the speeds, but again, I'd be loath to dismiss it as 'impossible' based on just that.

Hell, there've actually been several unidentifiable signals picked up on US hydrophones over the years coming from the deepest parts of the oceans, including one that was clearly of marine life origin(from audio profiling), but was eight times louder than the loudest marine animal known of to date (the blue whale).


Be funny if it came out it WAS aliens in twenty years though.