Students in a Texas public high school were made to stand up and recite the Mexican national anthem and Mexican pledge of allegiance as part of a Spanish class assignment, but the school district maintains there was nothing wrong with the lesson.
It happened last month in an intermediate Spanish class at Achieve Early College High School in McAllen, Texas — a city located about 10 miles from the U.S.-Mexico border.
(Related: Listen to Glenn Beck interview the father of the girl who refused to recite the pledge)
Wearing red, white and green, students had to memorize the Mexican anthem and pledge and stand up and recite them in individually in front of the class.
That didn’t go over well with sophomore Brenda Brinsdon. The 15-year-old sat down and refused to participate. She also caught it all on video:
“I just thought it was out of hand, I didn’t think it was right,” she told The Blaze. “Reciting pledges to Mexico and being loyal to it has nothing to do with learning Spanish.”
She said she was particularly offended because the presentations in teacher Reyna Santos’s class took place during “Freedom Week,” the week after the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, and on U.S. Constitution Day — the same day as Mexico’s Independence Day.
“Why are we doing their independence when it‘s Freedom Week and it’s also Constitution Day?” Brinsdon said.
Brinsdon said she complained to the school principal, Yvette Cavazo, who told her it was part of the curriculum and that she should participate. Her father, William, also got involved, calling the school district superintendent to complain.
When Brenda made clear she would not stand up and recite the pledge, she was given an alternative assignment: an essay on the history of the Mexican revolution.
Meanwhile, other students continued with their presentations, which took place over the course of several days.
When Brinsdon talked to Santos — a first-year teacher at Achieve — about her new assignment, the teacher told her she grew up in Mexico.
“She told me that she loved Mexico,” Brinsdon said.
School district spokesman Mark May defended the presentations, saying it’s a state requirement for upper-level language classes to teach about foreign culture.
According to the state’s Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills standards, students are expected to gain “knowledge and understanding” of other cultures and use the language to demonstrate understanding of different practices and perspectives. There are no specific requirements about learning to recite pledges or anthems.
May said it’s up to the teacher how to interpret and teach the standards.
“It wasn’t required to pledge loyalty and renounce the U.S., they were simply spreading the culture of another country,” May told The Blaze. “In my mind it’s no different from memorizing a poem or memorizing a passage from Shakespeare.”
William Brinsdon took issue with that notion, saying if that’s the case it cheapens the pledge.
“You‘re taking their allegiance and their oath from Mexico and cheapening it just as a grade or words don’t mean anything,” he said.
May reiterated that the lesson was all done within the context of meeting the state requirements, and that the school did its duty providing Brenda with an alternative assignment when she objected.
“The students came away with a better understanding of the culture, heritage and customs of a neighboring country where Spanish is the primary language,” he said.
May added that the lesson was “well received” by other students and parents.
“There’s always going to be people that always feel a little bit differently,” May said.
William Brinsdon is still having a hard time fathoming the idea of reciting foreign pledges and anthems in a U.S. public school in the first place.
“Our kids don’t even know the [American] national anthem and here we are…teaching them to memorize and perform the national anthem for Mexico,” he said. “I just think it’s so backwards.”
Yeah, that really got blown out of proportion. When I taught in S. Korea, some students wanted to know about the pledge of allegiance and even recited it; that didn't mean they cared about their country any less but it did help them understand a part of American culture. I suppose since I stood during the Japanese national anthem that I'm a secret fascist and will drive around in a black van now with loudspeakers on top proclaiming my love of the emperor (Uyoku Dantai).
And here I am proclaiming my love of the Emperor. Yankee go home! Oh wait, I already am.
corpsesarefun wrote:It was part of spanish class, so what?
What does Spanish have to do with reciting the Mexican national anthem? If you were going to recite any non-US/Texas anthem, it'd be...er Spain.
Well, the Mexican National Anthem, is in, you know, Spanish. So it's a great learning tool to study Mexican history and the language of the closest Spanish speaking country.
I can say the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish, and I dont see a mob coming after my teacher.
I don't really see the problem here, you're simply asking kids - who are learning to speak Spanish - to read and memorize a Spanish language text. Maybe there's something on the pledge of allegiance, but I think it's pretty clear that this was given as a 'recitation' exercise, not trying to get kids to actually pledge allegiance to Mexico.
She should have offered to do an essay on the Texas revolution instead. It's much more interesting than the Mexican revolution.
corpsesarefun wrote:It was part of spanish class, so what?
What does Spanish have to do with reciting the Mexican national anthem? If you were going to recite any non-US/Texas anthem, it'd be...er Spain.
Well, the Mexican National Anthem, is in, you know, Spanish. So it's a great learning tool to study Mexican history and the language of the closest Spanish speaking country.
I can say the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish, and I dont see a mob coming after my teacher.
So is Nicaragua, Spain, ElSalvador, Argentina, Paraguay, etc. ertc. whats your ing point?
The Aussie anthem is in English, yet I never recited the Aussie anthem in English class.
corpsesarefun wrote:It was part of spanish class, so what?
What does Spanish have to do with reciting the Mexican national anthem? If you were going to recite any non-US/Texas anthem, it'd be...er Spain.
Well, the Mexican National Anthem, is in, you know, Spanish. So it's a great learning tool to study Mexican history and the language of the closest Spanish speaking country.
I can say the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish, and I dont see a mob coming after my teacher.
So is Nicaragua, Spain, ElSalvador, Argentina, Paraguay, etc. ertc. whats your ing point?
The Aussie anthem is in English, yet I never recited the Aussie anthem in English class.
Like I said, it's the closest Spanish speaking country, 10 miles from the school.
And as for the Aussie Anthem, it has no practical purpose. It's in English, so the memorization would be useless. Unless you are in Australia.
Can't even fake outrage at this, I have no problem listening to ira songs and the like, I wouldn't mind having the goal of learning a national anthem as part of a foreign language course although the pledge would better serve in politics or history course.
Wonder if anyone would mind a class singing engeland lied (i like it)
I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.
Or if you take pledges seriously.
Sing after me children!
"I pledge my allegience to all things dark. And i promise on my damned soul to do as i am told, for Beelzebub has never seen a soldier quite like me; not only does his job but does it happily!"
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.
Or if you take pledges seriously.
Sing after me children!
"I pledge my allegience to all things dark. And i promise on my damned soul to do as i am told, for beelzebub has never seen a soldier quite like me; not only does his job but does it happily!"
Dude, they're in McAllen. They're already IN hell.
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
Truth be told I just copy/pasted the headline to the subject box. Was being too lazy to re-type. Thanks for the condescension though. Never get enough of it from you Shuma.
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
Truth be told I just copy/pasted the headline to the subject box. Was being too lazy to re-type. Thanks for the condescension though. Never get enough of it from you Shuma.
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
Truth be told I just copy/pasted the headline to the subject box. Was being too lazy to re-type. Thanks for the condescension though. Never get enough of it from you Shuma.
Don't worry about it. The exact same thing created the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.
I honestly have no idea what the problem is here. In a Spanish class they learnt something about the closest Spanish speaking country to them, but because it was Mexico and it was a pledge it suddenly becomes news. Seriously, does anyone take pledges seriously? Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
TrollPie wrote:Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
Yes, yes it does. Expect Matty to be about directly to terminate your command with extreme predjudice.
TrollPie wrote:Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
Yes, yes it does. Expect Matty to be about directly to terminate your command with extreme predjudice.
If we do have a pledge i've never heard it or heard it talked of... there's one for the armed forces IIRC...
TrollPie wrote:I honestly have no idea what the problem is here. In a Spanish class they learnt something about the closest Spanish speaking country to them, but because it was Mexico and it was a pledge it suddenly becomes news. Seriously, does anyone take pledges seriously? Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
It's god save the queen, which is also Englands unofficial anthem (also used by a fair bit of the common wealth) rule britannia is a military song mostly associated with the royal navy (also used by royal army) i think we have some kind of pledge, pledging loyalty to the queen, only used when becoming a british citizen and maybe at pompous displays so not really important.
TrollPie wrote:I honestly have no idea what the problem is here. In a Spanish class they learnt something about the closest Spanish speaking country to them, but because it was Mexico and it was a pledge it suddenly becomes news. Seriously, does anyone take pledges seriously? Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
It's god save the queen, which is also Englands unofficial anthem (also used by a fair bit of the common wealth) rule britannia is a military song mostly associated with the royal navy (also used by royal army) i think we have some kind of pledge, pledging loyalty to the queen, only used when becoming a british citizen and maybe at pompous displays so not really important.
I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!
/endsarcasm
That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.
TrollPie wrote:I honestly have no idea what the problem is here. In a Spanish class they learnt something about the closest Spanish speaking country to them, but because it was Mexico and it was a pledge it suddenly becomes news. Seriously, does anyone take pledges seriously? Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
It's god save the queen, which is also Englands unofficial anthem (also used by a fair bit of the common wealth) rule britannia is a military song mostly associated with the royal navy (also used by royal army) i think we have some kind of pledge, pledging loyalty to the queen, only used when becoming a british citizen and maybe at pompous displays so not really important.
TrollPie wrote:I honestly have no idea what the problem is here. In a Spanish class they learnt something about the closest Spanish speaking country to them, but because it was Mexico and it was a pledge it suddenly becomes news. Seriously, does anyone take pledges seriously? Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
It's god save the queen, which is also Englands unofficial anthem (also used by a fair bit of the common wealth) rule britannia is a military song mostly associated with the royal navy (also used by royal army) i think we have some kind of pledge, pledging loyalty to the queen, only used when becoming a british citizen and maybe at pompous displays so not really important.
I agree it is a good tool to learn Spanish. The problem is all the bro-ha-ha over the US Pledge of Allegiance and the fact that it is no longer a part of the daily culture of schools. It does seem ludicrous to teach the Mexican Pledge and not cover the US pledge. I will query whether those same Spanish students have an idea of what the US Pledge says.
However it is a matter of a tool for teaching a language. It is NOT a political protest in favor of ceceding Texas back to Mexico. No matter who wants to make that the issue.
Blacksails wrote:I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!
/endsarcasm
That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
Frazzled wrote:
What does Spanish have to do with reciting the Mexican national anthem? If you were going to recite any non-US/Texas anthem, it'd be...er Spain.
Most high schools in America don't teach the Spanish dialect, they teach Mexican Spanish. The most notable difference is the use of vosotros, which is something you don't need to know unless you plan on speaking to a Spaniard.
Blacksails wrote:I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!
/endsarcasm
That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
Not really... Forgetting that the 'rivalry' between France and Britain is a touch different most people in Britain either don't care or don't really have a problem with the French... EDIT:That said you did say best comparison not perfect comparison...
Blacksails wrote:I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!
/endsarcasm
That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
Not really...
Forgetting that the 'rivalry' between France and Britain is a touch different most people in Britain either don't care or don't really have a problem with the French...
EDIT:That said you did say best comparison not perfect comparison...
Maybe this is more appropriate. Fans of Manchester United being forced to sing the team anthem from Liverpool?
Frazzled wrote:
What does Spanish have to do with reciting the Mexican national anthem? If you were going to recite any non-US/Texas anthem, it'd be...er Spain.
Most high schools in America don't teach the Spanish dialect, they teach Mexican Spanish. The most notable difference is the use of vosotros, which is something you don't need to know unless you plan on speaking to a Spaniard.
I'd disagree, that most are actually not teaching a Mexican dialect. The district in question though - you betcha.
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Goddard wrote:As soon as I Glenn Beck, I stopped reading.
What are you talking about? Whats with the O dear baby Speghetti Monster is this a Glen Beck monologue?
Frazzled wrote:
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
Somehow I doubt the student or parent involved know anything about that history....if Texas' standardized test results are any indication...
Frazzled wrote:
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
Somehow I doubt the student or parent involved know anything about that history....if Texas' standardized test results are any indication...
I didn't bother to read anything after the 5th post or so. You clearly missed the point. A pledge of allegiance is an OATH OF LOYALTY. I know most Americans, and presumably most people from other countries think of it as something they are forced to say every morning in secondary school, etc. But the words actually have a meaning and the Pledge has its purpose. Reciting another countries pledge of allegiance is in effect act of treason in its own subtle way. Besides that, reciting an oath/pledge without meaning the words that come out of your mouth is technically bearing false witness.
Theres a reason why its called a "Pledge of Allegiance" and not something to the effect of "Statement of National Solidarity" or somesuch. I couldn't care less about the national anthem, ultimately its a song and doesn't necessarily mean anything, but the Pledge is kind of, or is supposed to be, a big deal.
TrollPie wrote:I honestly have no idea what the problem is here. In a Spanish class they learnt something about the closest Spanish speaking country to them, but because it was Mexico and it was a pledge it suddenly becomes news. Seriously, does anyone take pledges seriously? Speaking of which, does the UK have a pledge? Was the UK's national anthem God Save the Queen or Rule Britannia? Does not knowing this make me a flag-burning terrorist?
Yes, you have just pissed on the queen mothers grave as far as I am concerned and as such I have been forced to send the boyz round to deal with you.
If you look out your back window right about now....
chaos0xomega wrote: Besides that, reciting an oath/pledge without meaning the words that come out of your mouth is technically bearing false witness.
So's all that Latin drivel that the church spouts but it doesn't mean it's any less fun to translate when you're in HS. Words only have meaning when there is belief and intent behind them people reciting something that has cultural signifigance to another country's people, in their language, is nothing more than a means to create a deeper understanding of that culture, those people and that language. The intent of the recitation was clearly outlined and explained to be nothing more than a cultural exercise with options provided for anyone who objected; noone was forced to participate and noone was deported. The beautiful thing about this great country that some of us happen to live in is that we are all immigrants whose ancesters brought their disparate cultures and ideals with them...even their cultural and prior-citizenship. You want to see someone angry, force a group of traditionalist American-Indians to recite that pledge in primary/secondary school; it's like promising to support and defend the very ideals that destroyed your culture and decimated your people.
To me It's kind of like taking a tour of the DMZ in S. Korea; you walk into a building and move around while listening to the tour guide until he says "Ok, now everybody on this side of the room, you are now in N. Korean territory; if you want to defect, by treaty we are forced to inform you that you will not be stopped or hindered in any way, the door is behind you." Unless you have intent to defect to N. Korea, your little escapade is nothing more than a pre-planned quasi-joke made by a stone-faced, armed serviceman pulling double-duty as a tour-guide.
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Frazzled wrote:
On the positive, hurricanes are not ravaging death storms once they get there and I don't think the entire state was on fire, unlike texas.
Nah, we just get massive death funnels that wipe We hardly had any rain all year, there wasn't really all that much left to burn.
Blacksails wrote:I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!
/endsarcasm
That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
When did the French squat on the British Isles and then decide to kick the Brits off and claim it as their own? Sure they have warred against eachother, but I don't recall them completely taking over the British Isles. The Ex-pat American squatters are still in Texas, the French aren't still occupying Britain with the British of somewhere nearby mumbling to themselves in hushed tones and giving angry looks.
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.
Or if you take pledges seriously.
Yes, I am sure all the children at the beginning of school sing the Pledge of Alliegiance to the United States of America with all their heart and soul, and pay special attention to the most important part.."one nation, UNDER GOD!!!"
I don't think we even said the pledge in my school district after 5th grade, which would have been in 1996. Maybe there was a legal change, or maybe it was only a primary school thing, I don't really remember because I never paid any attention to it.
chaos0xomega wrote:I didn't bother to read anything after the 5th post or so. You clearly missed the point. A pledge of allegiance is an OATH OF LOYALTY. I know most Americans, and presumably most people from other countries think of it as something they are forced to say every morning in secondary school, etc. But the words actually have a meaning and the Pledge has its purpose. Reciting another countries pledge of allegiance is in effect act of treason in its own subtle way. Besides that, reciting an oath/pledge without meaning the words that come out of your mouth is technically bearing false witness.
Theres a reason why its called a "Pledge of Allegiance" and not something to the effect of "Statement of National Solidarity" or somesuch. I couldn't care less about the national anthem, ultimately its a song and doesn't necessarily mean anything, but the Pledge is kind of, or is supposed to be, a big deal.
I was gonna put a counter-point here but Agnosto did such a good job i won't bother...
I'm assuming you are referring to the Battle of Hastings and the Norman conquest of England. I didn't realize the Normans and the French were the same thing. I don't believe my statement said there were never any invasions or wars of any kind, just that the French didn't come squat in England, then declare war, and push all the English off and never leave. If he had used the Norman invasion as his example that would be more applicable.
Meh the normans were effectively french, it is a bit silly trying to talk about countries in europe over such a long period of time due to the boundries changing every hundred years or so.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Battle of Hastings and the Norman conquest of England. I didn't realize the Normans and the French were the same thing. I don't believe my statement said there were never any invasions or wars of any kind, just that the French didn't come squat in England, then declare war, and push all the English off and never leave. If he had used the Norman invasion as his example that would be more applicable.
Normans aren't French... or weren't.
Also William was mostly Viking descent anyway.
corpsesarefun wrote:Meh the normans were effectively french
I disagree, and I imagine they would to. Also, tell a Persian he is effectively Arab. They love that too.
corpsesarefun wrote:it is a bit silly trying to talk about countries in europe over such a long period of time due to the boundries changing every hundred years or so.
I agree, but, again, I didn't bring up the comparison.
I suppose coming from the UK makes me extremely lax on nationality, much of the north of England is of Scandinavian stock (much like the normans) yet would say they were English so I would consider the normans (normandy being in france at the momet) to be french.
This probably if offensive and incorrect but so are most of the other options.
The idea of nationality being explicitly tied to a region of territory is relatively new, which also creates some issues in translating the way it was into contemporary parlance.
My point still stands, the normans had relatively recently moved south before moving onto the UK but at the time were born and bread in what we would now call france.
Before scandavia they had come from anywhere, the ancestors of the joynson/johnsons/johansons were jewish if you go back far enough for example.
corpsesarefun wrote:Indeed dogma, considering how people have moved around europe trying to use bloodlines for nationality is equally silly though.
I'm not really talking about bloodlines, so much as things like language, cuisine, cermony, etc. Basically culture, and all its trappings, but language especially.
That doesn't make it any less complicated, but it does allow for more appreciation of variance over time in terms of identification.
corpsesarefun wrote:Indeed dogma, considering how people have moved around europe trying to use bloodlines for nationality is equally silly though.
I'm not really talking about bloodlines, so much as things like language, cuisine, cermony, etc. Basically culture, and all its trappings, but language especially.
That doesn't make it any less complicated, but it does allow for more appreciation of variance over time in terms of identification.
corpsesarefun wrote:My point still stands, the normans had relatively recently moved south before moving onto the UK but at the time were born and bread in what we would now call france.
I don't think that the fact they invaded northern France meant they stopped considering themselves Norman. I don't feel the point still stands.
Amore useful tool would be to teach the students to say the American Pledge of Allegiance or sing the American National Anthem in Spanish... then you are promoting patriotism and a form of spanish to better mesh things of this nature...
Now on to my feelings/opinion... I declare heresy against the spanish teacher and everyone on any school board that thinks using another nation/countries emblems as play things. Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to. I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims... I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity... George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!
WarlordRob117 wrote:Amore useful tool would be to teach the students to say the American Pledge of Allegiance or sing the American National Anthem in Spanish... then you are promoting patriotism and a form of spanish to better mesh things of this nature...
Now on to my feelings/opinion... I declare heresy against the spanish teacher and everyone on any school board that thinks using another nation/countries emblems as play things. Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to. I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims... I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity... George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!
WarlordRob117 wrote:Amore useful tool would be to teach the students to say the American Pledge of Allegiance or sing the American National Anthem in Spanish... then you are promoting patriotism and a form of spanish to better mesh things of this nature...
No you're not. It's called immersion, and it's been the best way to learn a language since man said "Ooga ooga!"
Now on to my feelings/opinion... I declare heresy against the spanish teacher and everyone on any school board that thinks using another nation/countries emblems as play things.
Teaching tool, not a play thing. There is a big difference. If kids were laughing, or mixing in words like "Puta" into there, yes. It would be made fun of. But they aren't. They are treating it with respect.
Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to.
For the sake of learning? America is about acceptance, and treated people as brothers and sisters. It's patriotic to learn.
I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims
Yeah, bs. I guarantee people in Mexico would applaud the teacher, for teaching the kids more than "Hey, kids! Mexico's a place where illegals come from!"
I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity...
People wanting to have a better life is bad, now?
George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!
Well, this is the most racist thing I have ever read on DakkaDakka. George Washington would be applauding, because his country has become accepting to the people he was oppressing.
Second, see "People wanting a better life is bad now?"
TL;DR: Look up "Ignorant American", and see the poster's Avatar.
WarlordRob117 wrote:Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of... I would rather kids who didnt want to do the Pledge of Allegiance sit down as they clearly have no respect for the freedoms they in debt to.
Well, those things mean something to some people, but not to others.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
I guarantee that there would be people in Mexico pissed about this, making similar claims... I lived in Florida for a good portion of my life and the language laws we are interring in order to benefit illegals and such are the same as this atrocity... George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. So because Cuba and Puerto Rico are a swim away, I have to pay homage to a state/territory the US already owns and a communist country... I call BS!!!
I didn't realize that having to endure the presence of Spanish translations on legal forms, and certain signs was a form of paying homage.
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Chowderhead wrote: It's patriotic to learn.
I don't know about that, but learning is something most people think of as good.
Chowderhead wrote:
Yeah, bs. I guarantee people in Mexico would applaud the teacher, for teaching the kids more than "Hey, kids! Mexico's a place where illegals come from!"
Some might, others might not, but most people probably don't care.
Chowderhead wrote:
George Washington would be applauding, because his country has become accepting to the people he was oppressing.
George Washington wouldn't have known what a Mexican, Cuban, or Puerto Rican was; not in the sense we do anyway. And he certainly wouldn't have been oppressing them.
Its not much to me... For I am one of the individuals responsible for the rights of Americans... I think if anyone should have a say to dictate a particular thought process its those who fight for said freedoms. In the military we have Culture awareness months where we have things ranging from salsa dance classes to speeches about how the average worked his way to becoming an equal in American Society... These things are inspiring as they truly teach the cultures of these great nations...
To Chowderhead:
How dare you accuse me of being a Racist when you have no idea my upbringing or my life... especially when you apparently dont even know what the word means... To be a racist is to be hateful towards a group due to their skin color... I am an American who has earned his place and I have a Puerto Rican father... your hypocrisy based on your ignorance is astounding...
People wanting to have a better life is one thing... people wanting to have a better life and do it the legal way that is established in law is the law... period... you dont just pass off judgment on a group because they have an admirable cause... if you are in America illegally then you are a dishonorable individual and should be immediately deported... its called life, deal with it...
I am further disturbed that you decided to take my statement out of context... My statement was in reference to the traditional mexican who would be offended that we are so casually teaching a very important part of mexican tradition for which we have no idea what its stands for until we live it. Stop being like every other person who claims to have an education and then let the veil fall because you have a brain fart... it makes you look unintelligent...
And I refuse to call anyone brother/sister unless theycome to America and follow American laws in doing so... again not racist in any way... America is not about acceptance its about Freedoms for Americans... not people who just live in America...
I consider it a play thing when a person stands up against their will... I wouldnt give a damn if I went back to school and I were the only one standing... I am man who went to hell and back to be able to say the Allegiance with pride, just like every mexican did the day the fought to regain control of the Alamo...
To Dogma: it is paying homage when you chose to forgoe basic American principles when you choose to accomodate rather force people who are here illegally that its ok to be here and break the law...
To all those reading this, take a step back and look at the big picture... I have the greatest respect for true Mexican American, African Americans, Asian Americans and every other nationality that followed the rules when the attempted to come here... When we stray from the rules for sympathy sake, we are dishonoring what we stand for as patrons and citizens of our own countries... to place priority over any other nationality than Americans in America is spitting on the graves of those I have fought with.
Its not much to me... For I am one of the individuals responsible for the rights of Americans... I think if anyone should have a say to dictate a particular thought process its those who fight for said freedoms. In the military we have Culture awareness months where we have things ranging from salsa dance classes to speeches about how the average worked his way to becoming an equal in American Society... These things are inspiring as they truly teach the cultures of these great nations...
I'd say learning the oath of alliegance of another country in their language can tell you a bit about a country...
You don't need to remember it or put meaning behind the words, if someone learnt my national anthem for instance i would be sincerely glad they were trying to learn more about my culture...
WarlordRob117 wrote:
To Dogma: it is paying homage when you chose to forgoe basic American principles when you choose to accomodate rather force people who are here illegally that its ok to be here and break the law...
I'm confused as to which basic American principles, whatever those are (probably just your principles), are being forgone. Its not like we have a national language.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
When we stray from the rules for sympathy sake, we are dishonoring what we stand for as patrons and citizens of our own countries...
Ah, I see, you care about honor. That's your first problem.
Your second problem is that you think this is a matter of sympathy by necessity.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
...to place priority over any other nationality than Americans in America is spitting on the graves of those I have fought with.
How dare you accuse me of being a Racist when you have no idea my upbringing or my life... especially when you apparently dont even know what the word means... To be a racist is to be hateful towards a group due to their skin color... I am an American who has earned his place and I have a Puerto Rican father... your hypocrisy based on your ignorance is astounding...
People wanting to have a better life is one thing... people wanting to have a better life and do it the legal way that is established in law is the law... period... you dont just pass off judgment on a group because they have an admirable cause... if you are in America illegally then you are a dishonorable individual and should be immediately deported... its called life, deal with it...
Oh ho ho, now you're saying that only white people can be racist?
ShumaGorath wrote:CAPS LOCK MAKES THIS THREAD MORE IMPORTANT
I don't see anything wrong with this. Famous or often used phrases are used to teach foreign languages all the time and mexico is the closest spanish speaking country. This is only questionable if you're a hyperconservative demagogue or one of their sheep.
Or if you take pledges seriously.
Sing after me children!
"I pledge my allegience to all things dark. And i promise on my damned soul to do as i am told, for Beelzebub has never seen a soldier quite like me; not only does his job but does it happily!"
AHEM!
As for the topic.
Do I like it?
meh.
It's a Spanish class. They are learning to speak spanish. Whats the problem?
Now, if it were a math class, THEN it would be cause for concern.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
How dare you accuse me of being a Racist when you have no idea my upbringing or my life... especially when you apparently dont even know what the word means... To be a racist is to be hateful towards a group due to their skin color... I am an American who has earned his place and I have a Puerto Rican father... your hypocrisy based on your ignorance is astounding...
That's not what hypocrisy is.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
its called life, deal with it
Well, not really, its called a judgment made by a particular person relative to a particular issue.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
My statement was in reference to the traditional mexican who would be offended that we are so casually teaching a very important part of mexican tradition for which we have no idea what its stands for until we live it.
Better stop teaching American children about the Revolution then, they didn't live it, after all.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
Stop being like every other person who claims to have an education and then let the veil fall because you have a brain fart... it makes you look unintelligent...
George Washington wouldn't have known what a Mexican, Cuban, or Puerto Rican was; not in the sense we do anyway. And he certainly wouldn't have been oppressing them.
He did know who the native residents of the land were though and considering the known trade relations with the Mayans went all the way to the Ohio river valley and beyond...ya see, the world's not as big as some peopel think, silk road and what not. Not a big difference back then between a "Mexican" and "Cuban" or a "Puerto Rican" native resident (not transplated slave or white settler). If by oppression you mean "killing" well, you're wrong because there was lots of that going on though Washington, himself, was slightly more altruistic since he pushed the continental congress to be more friendly to the natives but that was more survival than anything else since nobody sane wants to fight a two front war.
WarlordRob117 wrote:Now on to my feelings/opinion... I declare heresy against the spanish teacher and everyone on any school board that thinks using another nation/countries emblems as play things.
It's not a plaything. It's a learning tool. Just like an earlier poster talked about his students in South Korea learning to recite the American Pledge of Allegiance. No disrespect is given or implied. The language learner is learning something about the culture along with the language. That's a normal and traditional part of language learning.
WarlordRob117 wrote:Those allegiances and pledges mean something to people, and when someone recites something out for the sake of...
Context matters. Do you also believe that if you learn and recite a prayer from another religion while studying Comparative Religion that it changes your religion? Or that if you play Dr. Faustus in a play, by reciting your lines you are literally making a deal with the devil? Of course not.
WarlordRob117 wrote:George Washington would turn butt up in his grave if he knew stuff like this was going on. !!!
I strongly suspect the George Washington knew at least a little French. And that he would be entirely supportive of this learning exercise. I rather suspect that Jefferson might have sung La Marseillaise at some point after it was adopted as France's anthem in 1795.
agnosto wrote:
He did know who the native residents of the land were though and considering the known trade relations with the Mayans went all the way to the Ohio river valley and beyond...ya see, the world's not as big as some peopel think, silk road and what not. Not a big difference back then between a "Mexican" and "Cuban" or a "Puerto Rican" native resident (not transplated slave or white settler). If by oppression you mean "killing" well, you're wrong because there was lots of that going on though Washington, himself, was slightly more altruistic since he pushed the continental congress to be more friendly to the natives but that was more survival than anything else since nobody sane wants to fight a two front war.
At the time, oppressing Cubans, Puerto Ricans, or Mexicans would have meant invading Spanish territory; which Washington did not do. Nor did he oppress native residents of those places.
Native does not mean "Native of Cuba, Puerto Rico, or spain."
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WarlordRob117 wrote:
I will not entertain the notion that you fools are trying to get e rise out of me by refering to my profession in a condescending tone, along the with ones who have died throughout history because they died for freedom based on rules and laws which are basic to every man, not just Americans...
Is that why the American Civil War happened, because freedom based on rules and laws have been basic to every man?
WarlordRob117 wrote:
You all lack ambition, and its no wonder why you focus all your time on a wargamming forum talking about issues of this matter because to you its big joke.
I don't see what ambition has to do with this, free time sure, but ambition...not so much.
WarlordRob117 wrote:
All of our tenants, Truth, Justice, Honor, Personal Courage, Respect, things that used to matter are now lost to people who would rather free a murderer than give the citizen back their status... meanwhile my real family has to accept the fact that they may not get paid in a week or two because the defense budget hasnt been approved...
Perhaps you should, then, stop being involved in such an expensive hobby. Unless you aren't involved in this hobby, in which case: why are you here?
WarlordRob117 wrote:
I dont expect you to understand, but ask yourself an honest question, without cynacism or immaturity... how long would you last in our shoes?
Presuming you mean those who live under liver fire, probably not long, but that's why I chose a life which is distinct from that one.
WarlordRob117 wrote:Its obvious that Im surrounded by individuals who have no respect for being a responsible human being, let alone an American.
You seem to have trouble with people not thinking like you. Considering the population of the planet, you must have a rough time of it. When we add in that you have been way off base as well, it just makes the whole thing kind of sad.
WarlordRob117 wrote:I will not entertain the notion that you fools are trying to get e rise out of me by refering to my profession in a condescending tone
I would say you were trolling at this point, but I don't think you have the creativity for that. No one has besmirched being in the military in the slightest. We have pointed out that soldiers aren't super being from which all laws, life, and love flow from. If anything, you have been doing a disservice by severely misrepresenting the military by trying to pretend you speak for all servicemen as well as having a profound misunderstanding of the role of the military within the context of the United States. The brand of militarism you are spouting off is the kind of thing even the conflicted Founding Fathers worried about.
WarlordRob117 wrote:I pity you...
Why thank you.
Having grown up in and around the military, you come off as sounding more like someone not in the military but someone that really, really wants to be. Perhaps you couldn't pass the psych evaluation or ASVAB, who knows, but your idolizing of it smacks more of having experience with Tom Clancy novels than the reality of service.
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dogma wrote:
agnosto wrote:
He did know who the native residents of the land were though and considering the known trade relations with the Mayans went all the way to the Ohio river valley and beyond...ya see, the world's not as big as some peopel think, silk road and what not. Not a big difference back then between a "Mexican" and "Cuban" or a "Puerto Rican" native resident (not transplated slave or white settler). If by oppression you mean "killing" well, you're wrong because there was lots of that going on though Washington, himself, was slightly more altruistic since he pushed the continental congress to be more friendly to the natives but that was more survival than anything else since nobody sane wants to fight a two front war.
At the time, oppressing Cubans, Puerto Ricans, or Mexicans would have meant invading Spanish territory; which Washington did not do. Nor did he oppress native residents of those places.
Native does not mean "Native of Cuba, Puerto Rico, or spain."
Not to mention of the Native American tribes he did have to deal with as President he tried to make sure that colonists stopped screweing with them. The letters between him and the Secretary of War are good reads.
dogma wrote:How long would you last in my shoes?
How long can you stay in grad school with a 1.2 gpa?
Indeed. The British kings didn't speak English for generations. They spoke French.
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Melissia wrote:Personally, I sang "Under Zod".
But then, I'm a nerd.
Thats because Zod has a cool beard.
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corpsesarefun wrote:Meh the normans were effectively french, it is a bit silly trying to talk about countries in europe over such a long period of time due to the boundries changing every hundred years or so.
Except for Switzerland. No one s with Switzerland. Freedom, chocolate, and excellent time pieces. Is there a connection?
Blacksails wrote:I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!
/endsarcasm
That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
I learned and sang the French national anthem in French class.
It is a pretty standard way of studying another country's language and culture.
Blacksails wrote:I was under the impression that if you said aloud another nation's anthem and pledge of allegiance/similar written document, that you automatically revoked your current citizenship and adopted that nation's citizenship. That whole class just became Mexican! Heresy!
/endsarcasm
That student took it WAY too seriously. Blown way out of proportion. This is why we can't have nice things.
You're forgetting, there's a bit of history between Mexico and Texas. I think the best comparison would be for a Brit to be told to recite the French pledge of allegiance (again if they have one).
I learned and sang the French national anthem in French class.
It is a pretty standard way of studying another country's language and culture.
No-one batted an eyelid.
I took German for years, but the last year the German teacher quit and I was put into French 1. Hated it. It is wrong to be French, and the urge to demand the teacher's surrender was overpowering.
ing point?
