Even worse? Really? The Vanquisher would gut the Abrams with a single shot from extreme range. This is a gun that can punch through Titan armour.

See it's statements like this that make it hard to take you guys seriously. So what? it can punch through more, when the original can do the same with a blast effect for infantry. By the way, the Vanquisher is basically an M256 120mm Sabot shot.

Once you both have the firepower to annihilate each other speed wins, and if you are matched in all taht, then infantry ability and skill prevail.

Contradicting sources.

Easily said about everything concerning the stuff from 40k.

A Lasgun isn't you're average kinetic round assault rifle. It causes a small plasma explosion on the surface, that's going to pulp the insides of any person it hits, knocking them over, with pin-point accuracy. Flak armor withstands this, it covers more of the body, and every single soldier has a set. The Lasgun is a weapon so vastly superior to anything we have as standard on inantry it's silly to even talk about it.

Source or GTFO cause inquisitor says your wrong.

Nah. You're just in denial.

Proove me wrong, I've shown sources both real world and fluff, all you've done is spew fanboysim out your ass. Also your wrong so go ahead and try to find sources, it'll take a LONG while.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Even worse? Really? The Vanquisher would gut the Abrams with a single shot from extreme range. This is a gun that can punch through Titan armour.

See it's statements like this that make it hard to take you guys seriously. So what? it can punch through more, when the original can do the same with a blast effect for infantry. By the way, the Vanquisher is basically an M256 120mm Sabot shot.

Once you both have the firepower to annihilate each other speed wins, and if you are matched in all taht, then infantry ability and skill prevail.

Contradicting sources.

Easily said about everything concerning the stuff from 40k.

A Lasgun isn't you're average kinetic round assault rifle. It causes a small plasma explosion on the surface, that's going to pulp the insides of any person it hits, knocking them over, with pin-point accuracy. Flak armor withstands this, it covers more of the body, and every single soldier has a set. The Lasgun is a weapon so vastly superior to anything we have as standard on inantry it's silly to even talk about it.

Source or GTFO cause inquisitor says your wrong.
Lexicanum, Codex:Imperial Guard, basically any other wikia I can think of.

Nah. You're just in denial.

Proove me wrong, I've shown sources both real world and fluff, all you've done is spew fanboysim out your ass. Also your wrong so go ahead and try to find sources, it'll take a LONG while.

Read my previous note.

Interceptor armor is rated to stop 9mm rounds moving @ 1,400 ft/s. Add the plates and it can stop upto 3 7.62x51mm NATO M80 ball.. Meaning it might not even stop one. And there has been controversey over how much it protects. It doesn't protect the sides or the shoulders. At best it provides a 6+ save.

A heavy stubber is equivalent to a heavy machine gun. A heavy machine gun is generally a .50 cal or 12.7mm. Flak armor will reliably stop one. Edge Flak Armor.

Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

Air force, well a modern helicopter cant take a direct missile hit. Vendettas and StormRavens can. Iom has edge in gunships. I dont know about lightnings and marauders. so i wont speculate.

Space marines are considered to be walking tanks. They shrug off small arms with ease. It would take a direct hit from a tow to bring one down, or a lot of dakka.

And your judging it from a US military perspective. Generally coincided the most advanced military in the world. And arguably the best all a round. About 2.4 million in total. However, other militarys arnt as good as ours.

IoM winds hand down, they have the firepower, the logistics, and the sheer numbers to beat us.

A shot from the Ambrams is equivalent to a blast from a rather large frag grenade.

wow, stupid statement is stupid. It's a shaped charge, not a simple explosive. the difference in penetrative qualities is quite litterally HUNDREDS of times, possibly even thousands of times more.

So you are saying that even laser cannot pierce a standard-issue body armor? Now, imagine a dozen industrial-grade lasers pointed at an armor. That is how powerful a lasgun is.

are you even familiar with what specific heat means? Also you are aware that the autoguns in inquisitor have a higher penetration than a lasgun right?

It is capable of penetrating light vehicles, Power Armor and even do some damage to heavy armor. Imagine the german Flak 88 on rapid fire. That is how an AC works.

Stop being so stupid, and german 88 was an 88mm gun, WAY different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

your wrong, but continue to believe so without any evidence supporting your side fanboys, i've prooven you wrong with math, fluff, and weapons data, and you still continue, you are idiots. Goodbye.

As much as comparisons of modern military tech to (often times) poorly described/conceived 40k weaponry is fun...i have to throw in my 2c.

The IoM would win the maneuver war. They would drop in and destroy our leadership and logistics, thus disorganizing us and removing our ability to fight in a protracted context. The Space Marines would take care of that bit. Once that was done they would bring down the IG and use them to crush the remained of the resistance with superior numbers and SM support.

Criticize teleportation and drop podding all you want...I agree that in a pitched battle situation they would be silly...but in the context of a global conquest they are masterful. Who cares how strong our militaries are if the nerve centres of all key armed forces are stuck simultaneously by overwhelming fire power. This combined with orbital and aerial strikes on key airfields, shipyards, supply depots, and bases would cripple our ability to fight in the opening hours of the war. If you thought that launching a bunch of cruise missiles and bombs at Iraq was Shock and Awe...the SM would take it to a whole new level.

Anyway. I maintain that Earth's ability to fight would be crippled within hours of refusing to submit, to be followed by a short and bloody pacification campaign.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

Shouldn't it be the other way round, since the Challenger 2 has superior armour to an Abrams? IIRC one took something like 70 RPG shots in Basra and survived. Another took 14 RPGs and a Milan and was operational again in 6 hours.

Concider you are right for a moment... ( even if your not) That Amurica!!!!!! is the BEST EVERZZZZ! And pwns everthing with its awesome guns. Consider the numbers game. Go on, think about. I'll wait.

Oh your back.

Then go ask nazi germany. They had the best tanks. The best tactics, the best planes, the best weapons. And they lost. Because they where out numbered.

Oh the challenger is better. Improves my argument even more. I was refering to this line from wikipedia when i wqas looking up rpgs. "August 2006, an RPG-29 round penetrated the frontal ERA of a Challenger 2 tank during an engagement in al-Amarah, Iraq and wounded several crew members"

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Concider you are right for a moment... ( even if your not) That Amurica!!!!!! is the BEST EVERZZZZ! And pwns everthing with its awesome guns. Consider the numbers game. Go on, think about. I'll wait.

The funny thing is, the Abrams uses Chobham armour, which is British.

Why do you even post on this forum? You say you use maths, facts, and examples from the fluff. I'm reality, you've used two facts from Inquisitor and Imperial Armour (neither of which are reliable) and your own rough comparisons, which aren't largely backed up by anything. So no, you aren't right, so I'd stop your arrogant insulting.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Even worse? Really? The Vanquisher would gut the Abrams with a single shot from extreme range. This is a gun that can punch through Titan armour.

See it's statements like this that make it hard to take you guys seriously. So what? it can punch through more, when the original can do the same with a blast effect for infantry. By the way, the Vanquisher is basically an M256 120mm Sabot shot.

Once you both have the firepower to annihilate each other speed wins, and if you are matched in all taht, then infantry ability and skill prevail.

You have proven that 1-on-1, the Abrams could win. However, for every shot 1 Abrams makes, there will be at least 4 or so shooting at that Abrams in return. The IG ALWAYS attacks with a large amount of armor and men, and quickly. When the huge IG drop pods are used, entire armoured companies can be deployed in a short amount of time.

There would also be aircraft to contend with, such as Vendettas, which would fire 6 lascannon shots at 1 target, which would most likely destroy an Abrams.

gendoikari87 wrote:your wrong, but continue to believe so without any evidence supporting your side fanboys, i've prooven you wrong with math, fluff, and weapons data, and you still continue, you are idiots. Goodbye.

You haven't actually proved much of anything, really.

You've cherry-picked at contradicting sources, name-dropped random sources without so much as a quote (For that matter, an autogun is similar in appearance and operation to a modern firearm, that does not in fact imply they are equivelant), brought up random scientific terms without explaining the context behind them to inform those who may not be familiar with them, and insulted anyone who disagreed with you.

You clearly have no concept of logical debate nor are you capable of adequately explaining your point to your opposition in an effort to get them to understand how you reached your conclusion. You're an immature brat who states things and then goes on a pathetic temper tantrum when people disagree with your view.

You're clearly the idiot here.

gendoikari87 wrote:

A shot from the Ambrams is equivalent to a blast from a rather large frag grenade.

wow, stupid statement is stupid. It's a shaped charge, not a simple explosive. the difference in penetrative qualities is quite litterally HUNDREDS of times, possibly even thousands of times more.

Source? Besides, it was about taking down infantry. A larger blast is more effective than a blast which is designed to take down armored targets.

So you are saying that even laser cannot pierce a standard-issue body armor? Now, imagine a dozen industrial-grade lasers pointed at an armor. That is how powerful a lasgun is.

are you even familiar with what specific heat means? Also you are aware that the autoguns in inquisitor have a higher penetration than a lasgun right?

And I take it that Inquisitor is the viable source? An armor can withstand a certain amount of heat, yes. Laser focuses that heat on a square-centimeter. Lasguns actually cause a small plasma-explosion on the surface. It blows a piece out of your chest. Imagine that effect on rapid fire.

It is capable of penetrating light vehicles, Power Armor and even do some damage to heavy armor. Imagine the german Flak 88 on rapid fire. That is how an AC works.

Stop being so stupid, and german 88 was an 88mm gun, WAY different.

The Flak 88 was devastating at its time. No tank could withstand prolonged fire from it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Still say the abrams is at best av 12. An RPG is prob equal to a str 6 weapon, and they can pen challenger II. And Damage abrams. Which would equal at least a glance. Hence AV 12 at best. Edge goes to Leman Russ for armor.

your wrong, but continue to believe so without any evidence supporting your side fanboys, i've prooven you wrong with math, fluff, and weapons data, and you still continue, you are idiots. Goodbye.

Personal attacks are against DakkaDakka rules. Thanks! ~Manchu

An autogun and a lasgun in Dark Heresy have the exact same statistics.

I am just saying.

Edited by Manchu

He was also not saying that the Flak 88 would work today. He was commenting on how the AC from 40K is comparable to the Flak 88, not that they are the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I would prefer if we did not comment on each others grammer. It does not matter much in this instance.

Void__Dragon wrote:An autogun and a lasgun in Dark Heresy have the exact same statistics.

I am just saying.

Question though, what sources did you use? hmmm. Non, and you just pulled dark heresy out of your ass which kind of helped my point. I'm done with this argument, i've won, not that you'll ever see much less admit that.

Lol? Did you see what he posted? Maybe you could comment on how he shouldn't insult other posters like he's done twice now?

gendoikari87 wrote:Question though, what sources did you use? hmmm. Non, and you just pulled dark heresy out of your ass which kind of helped my point. I'm done with this argument, i've won, not that you'll ever see much less admit that.

I quoted the Grey Knights codex for one.

I pulled Dark Heresy out of my ass? Both the lasgun and autogun have a pen of 0, and do 1d10+3 damage.

EDIT: Never mind...stated above.

Rule Number One of DakkaDakka is Be Polite! Please endeavor to follow this rule. Thanks! ~Manchu

hey when you say things like a 30mm grenade is the same thing as a 30mm cannon shell, it comes with a territory.

Calling you an idiot was out of line however, I'm sorry. but you are poorly misinformed on everything from the real world.

Once a ship enters our atomsphere we are basically screwed.

Asherian Command wrote:Once a ship enters our atomsphere we are basically screwed.

Well that goes without saying the dang things have freaking nova cannons, railguns as big as WWII battleships and torpedos that make the Tzar Bomba look like pop rocks. The argument is about everything ELSE. Mostly because some people think the rule of cool extends into reality.

gendoikari87 makes some good points (like SM tactics being slowed IRL), I think he underestimates the effect having all our leadership/command & control decapitated early int he conflict would have on organized resistance. Modern military tactics requires an enormous level of coordination, and early Space Marine attacks/orbital bombardment would take out most of our key centers of leadership. Terminators wouldn't teleport into the middle of Fort Bragg, they'd teleport into the middle of The Pentagon.

Imperium would also easily establish air superiority by taking out airfields, which you can't exactly hide. Their aircraft are VTOL or space-launched.

Actually the argument is the IoM vs the Earth. Which would include all the inferior earth militaries, and the Imperial Fleet.

gendoikari87 wrote:hey when you say things like a 30mm grenade is the same thing as a 30mm cannon shell, it comes with a territory.

Calling you an idiot was out of line however, I'm sorry. but you are poorly misinformed on everything from the real world.

I am not agreeing that it is a 30MM shell, but it is still more than a 30MM grenade. A "bolt" is a .75cal rocket propelled explosive round. With Kraken bolts, i think that a normal bolter could punch through armor quite easily (not heavy armor mind you). A Kraken bolt is basically a small sabot round.

Well, we get fethed don't we.

I think he underestimates the effect having all our leadership/command & control decapitated early int he conflict would have on organized resistance.

I don't underestimate it I question the ability to actually do so by first announcing your coming to the doorstep and showing up.

A "bolt" is a .75cal rocket propelled explosive round.

Yes basically an XM307 only the xm307 is 1.00 Caliber.

With Kraken bolts, i think that a normal bolter could punch through armor quite easily (not heavy armor mind you).

Krakens possibly, still would be subject to chance and need a lot of them to do much to a tank.

Tarkand wrote:
Now to mention that war on Earth would be all about city conflicts... Titan are kinda meh in those settings.

And thus began the pre-firing rights to the "turn a city into a rubble strewn plain" cannon...

gendoikari87 wrote:

I think he underestimates the effect having all our leadership/command & control decapitated early int he conflict would have on organized resistance.

I don't underestimate it I question the ability to actually do so by first announcing your coming to the doorstep and showing up.

A "bolt" is a .75cal rocket propelled explosive round.

Yes basically an XM307 only the xm307 is 1.00 Caliber.

With Kraken bolts, i think that a normal bolter could punch through armor quite easily (not heavy armor mind you).

Krakens possibly, still would be subject to chance and need a lot of them to do much to a tank.

Meet Lascannon and Melta Gun. Are forces are gone. on the first strike. They would idenitfy all threat areas hit us where it hurts blowing up entire cities, nukes won't do anything. And our entire airforce is destroyed by a single hydra cannon.

Quite simple Chuck Norris will rise as one of the missing Primarch the Emperors greatest lost son, but he will refuse and proceed to rounhouse kick the imperium into submission

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Quite simple Chuck Norris will rise as one of the missing Primarch the Emperors greatest lost son, but he will refuse and proceed to rounhouse kick the imperium into submission

That is an entirely new argument isn't it, emporer V Chuck Norris

Edit: V Master Chief.

Edit2: also, Man portable Heavy bolter http://world.guns.ru/grenade/usa/xm25-e.html

Tarkand wrote:
The Germans attempted to build Super heavy tanks in real life after all, and those ended up being a failure because they made easy target for bombing run from enemy planes and the Germans simply couldn't make armor solid enough to survive the bombardment.

They were also temperamental (overengineered).

We may as well just surrender and join the Imperium (what's the worst that can happen?). All 40k players would probably be forced into service for the Inquisition.

Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

Things like a Tomahawk could kill or severely injure a squad of Space Marines, but I can't see hitting a unit that combines the mobility of an infantryman with the armour of a light tank as particularly easy. Like Heinlein's Mobile Infantry they wouldn't be standing still, they'd be here, there, and everywhere destroying, killing and generally raising hell. Ignore the "tactics" we see on the tabletop. Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth, with the possible exception of camouflage and concealment which isn't easy for someone seven foot tall in armour and painted in bright primary colours... but then they are wearing a suit of tank armour.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

It can reasonably be expected that technology has advanced in the 20-30,000 years between our time and the time of the Great Crusade. Drawing comparisons to weapons and armour of our day is how the writers build a link between ourselves and the game. The adamantium armour on a Land Raider would probably be closer to 500mm thick and provides the protection of 1000mm of steel armour which means it's still vulnerable to some weapons (like HEAT rounds) but that's okay. The point of any tank is that it balances the requirements of protection, firepower, and mobility. The Land Raider is (or should be) better protected, carries more firepower, and travels faster than any modern tank. It need not be invulnerable, after all there are a variety of weapons that destroy them easily even in the 41st millennium.

Lasguns are equivalent to an assault rifle, that is what they're supposed to be like. I'd say they're closer to a 7.62mm Nato than the 5.56mm in terms of power. Flak armour is superior to modern body armour, not just in terms of protection but also in terms of mobility and comfort while wearing it. Of course they could also field a thousand men for every soldier on Earth, so they'd swamp us with numbers if nothing else.

Imperium of Man versus Earth. We'd lose, of course, because we can't match the firepower, mobility, armour, or sheer numbers that the IoM would bring to bear if they really decided to whack us.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Things like a Tomahawk could kill or severely injure a squad of Space Marines, but I can't see hitting a unit that combines the mobility of an infantryman with the armour of a light tank as particularly easy. Like Heinlein's Mobile Infantry they wouldn't be standing still, they'd be here, there, and everywhere destroying, killing and generally raising hell. Ignore the "tactics" we see on the tabletop. Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth, with the possible exception of camouflage and concealment which isn't easy for someone seven foot tall in armour and painted in bright primary colours... but then they are wearing a suit of tank armour.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

It can reasonably be expected that technology has advanced in the 20-30,000 years between our time and the time of the Great Crusade. Drawing comparisons to weapons and armour of our day is how the writers build a link between ourselves and the game. The adamantium armour on a Land Raider would probably be closer to 500mm thick and provides the protection of 1000mm of steel armour which means it's still vulnerable to some weapons (like HEAT rounds) but that's okay. The point of any tank is that it balances the requirements of protection, firepower, and mobility. The Land Raider is (or should be) better protected, carries more firepower, and travels faster than any modern tank. It need not be invulnerable, after all there are a variety of weapons that destroy them easily even in the 41st millennium.

Lasguns are equivalent to an assault rifle, that is what they're supposed to be like. I'd say they're closer to a 7.62mm Nato than the 5.56mm in terms of power. Flak armour is superior to modern body armour, not just in terms of protection but also in terms of mobility and comfort while wearing it. Of course they could also field a thousand men for every soldier on Earth, so they'd swamp us with numbers if nothing else.

Imperium of Man versus Earth. We'd lose, of course, because we can't match the firepower, mobility, armour, or sheer numbers that the IoM would bring to bear if they really decided to whack us.

This about sums it up I think.

Imperium wins because they have learned from humanities pervious mistakes. Space Marines would tactically kill us slaughtering Al-Queda in the mountains. Each time a bomb goes off the Space marines shrugg it off like nothing actually happened.

iproxtaco wrote:Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

True the heavy bolter is a fully automatic grenade launcher. Which begs the question, HB V MK 19 40mm fully auto grenade launcher?

Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth

Except they don't even use them in the fluff. They might be clad in tank armour but real military forces are trained in hit and run ambushes and concealment, you wouldn't see US Special forces runnig up against marines, you'd see marines walking through a city, and suddenly from rooftops a few troops would lay down cover fire while another few lobbed explosive charges at them or sniped them from afar. Or better yet, you'd see space marines walking through a city and out of the blue a cruise missile just blows them to hell, guided in by a marine with a targeter hidden from view.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

wouldn't the nova cannon blast the whole planet to smitherenes?

4 psykers and a libby or two following any IG army could win almost any battle...

now imagine an entire 10th company of codex marines (or *shudder* a couple dozen wolf scouts) were turned loose on the Earth a few months before the attack...

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

True the heavy bolter is a fully automatic grenade launcher. Which begs the question, HB V MK 19 40mm fully auto grenade launcher?

No, not true. The Heavy Bolter isn't a grenade launcher of any kind.

Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth

Except they don't even use them in the fluff. They might be clad in tank armour but real military forces are trained in hit and run ambushes and concealment, you wouldn't see US Special forces runnig up against marines, you'd see marines walking through a city, and suddenly from rooftops a few troops would lay down cover fire while another few lobbed explosive charges at them or sniped them from afar. Or better yet, you'd see space marines walking through a city and out of the blue a cruise missile just blows them to hell, guided in by a marine with a targeter hidden from view.

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

wouldn't the nova cannon blast the whole planet to smitherenes?

Nope. It might cause a planet wide cataclysm depending on where it hit. They would us Lances for pinpoint strikes.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nah. It's a semi-automatic grenade launcher. The Heavy Bolter is not a semi-automatic grenade launcher.

True the heavy bolter is a fully automatic grenade launcher. Which begs the question, HB V MK 19 40mm fully auto grenade launcher?

Marines can be expected to use the best tactics of any military on Earth

Except they don't even use them in the fluff. They might be clad in tank armour but real military forces are trained in hit and run ambushes and concealment, you wouldn't see US Special forces runnig up against marines, you'd see marines walking through a city, and suddenly from rooftops a few troops would lay down cover fire while another few lobbed explosive charges at them or sniped them from afar. Or better yet, you'd see space marines walking through a city and out of the blue a cruise missile just blows them to hell, guided in by a marine with a targeter hidden from view.

Not to mention that firing a missile would instantly expose the missile carrier to retaliation from space. Something that would be true of any launch platform. Even submarines would be vaporized (along with a few million tons of sea water) by a Nova Cannon or the like.

wouldn't the nova cannon blast the whole planet to smitherenes?

HB.
I think that the Mk 19 might have some trouble getting through SM armor. Yes, it can go through steel, but ceramite and adamantium are much harder to punch through. A bolt can go through SM armor. And not every squad is equipped with a Mk 19, whereas every SM squad COULD be equipped with a HB.

Does a cruise missile using a targeting system held by a person need a satellite to track? If so, that point is moot because we established that the IoM would destroy/overtake/jam our satellites.

And no, the Nova Cannon will not obliterate a planet. It is powerful, yes, but not like the Chaos Planet Killer.

Nova Cannon is very powerful but is not a planet killer.

Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

I dont think our air superiority would win i just think it would be a temporary delay, like maybe 8 or 9 hours till the imperium got more then 1 whirlwind launcher per contenant.

iproxtaco wrote:Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

Ok, thanks. Did not know if they needed GPS or not.

You also have to remember that the people writing the fluff have almost know knowledge (besides other fiction) on tactics etc...on top of that they are selling the idea of demigod warriors. So of course space marines in the novels do not take cover, and just walk down roads etc. But it does not mean that if they end up in a situation where it would be prudent that they would not. Just because my tank is impervious to small arms fire does not mean that I expose myself to it needlessly.

As I said. Steel rain combined with orbital support and follow on IG elements would easily take out our command and control infrastructure and our ability to respond with force...within hours. By the end of the second day IG will be fighting their way into cities. The overwhelming show of force combined with the quick and decisive destruction of government and military leadership would result in a great deal of surrender...leaving only the most desperate and die hard to attempt to fight in an organized manner...which would eventually devolve into a guerrilla movement...and finally be stamped out by the occupying forces.
Sure its well and good that we should defend earth...blah blah blah...but in this case defeat is inevitable


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Our aircraft would just get shot of the sky by their space craft...and their air craft...and their missiles...etc

forruner_mercy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

Ok, thanks. Did not know if they needed GPS or not.

Still, any missile launch site is going to be operating on a one-shot basis. They can launch one missile before ship in orbit pick up that the missile(s) has launched, and take the sites out. Capability to fire them will be greatly reduced once any navy ships are taken out, which would be a priority for Imperial Forces. I agree that we would likely be reduced to nothing but short-range radio communications and small regional resistance within a few days at the most. This whole unified tactical defense wont happen, so there's probably not going to be many cruise missiles launched. Besides, what the hell are Astartes doing in the middle of a city? They're not going to spear-head a charge of a couple of thousand Guard into enemy territory, they're going to be at the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, the Kremlin, wherever the main command centers are, or where the main air bases and missile launch sites are, vital targets. No matter what you think, the respective nations aren't going to launch cruise missile at their most important locations.

iproxtaco wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Cruise Missile don't necessarily require GPS. They can use TERCOM to basically navigate their way to the target. It's a pre-programmed topical map of the route the missile will take, it sends out signals which bounce back to make sure it isn't hitting anything.

Ok, thanks. Did not know if they needed GPS or not.

Still, any missile launch site is going to be operating on a one-shot basis. They can launch one missile before ship in orbit pick up that the missile(s) has launched, and take the sites out. Capability to fire them will be greatly reduced once any navy ships are taken out, which would be a priority for Imperial Forces. I agree that we would likely be reduced to nothing but short-range radio communications and small regional resistance within a few days at the most. This whole unified tactical defense wont happen, so there's probably not going to be many cruise missiles launched. Besides, what the hell are Astartes doing in the middle of a city? They're not going to spear-head a charge of a couple of thousand Guard into enemy territory, they're going to be at the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, the Kremlin, wherever the main command centers are, or where the main air bases and missile launch sites are, vital targets. No matter what you think, the respective nations aren't going to launch cruise missile at their most important locations.

Even if they did launch missiles at important places, by the time they choose to it won't matter much.

Cruise missiles, even while launched would do little in terms of relevant damage to the IoM without proper leadership/command & control/infrastructure to back it up. They could take out some IG or even some SM, but at the end of the day without the Command & Control to properly coordinate these strikes then follow up with counterattacks they would mean very little in the greater scheme of things.

Orbital bombardment would destroy most major military centers, Space Marines or even Assassins would quickly decapitate global leadership, IG would grind up whatever is left. I do think we could take down a goodly number of Guardsmen before we lose though if they're not from an elite regiment. Guys from some foresaken Hive World or the like, not Cadia.

Or the DKoK. If you want some urban fighters, get them or Valhallans.

TechMarine1 wrote:
We may as well just surrender and join the Imperium (what's the worst that can happen?). All 40k players would probably be forced into service for the Inquisition.

Would be my plan. If the Imperium ever did show up on earth to reclaim it, the first thing I would do is head to where the Imperial Forces are at and surrender. Maybe try to show off my Knowledge of Imperial Forces (while not the most knowledgeable person on the imperium, maybe enough to get a cushy job or executed on the spot[would prefer job]).

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now. Know why we don't? Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor. In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it, and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max. Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

I don't want to read all posts now, but I'll say a few things.

Our Terra is Holy Terra.

We are their past. Exterminating us would probably create some sort of time paradox and screw everything up.

I don't know if the big E was alive back now, but if he was, he wouldn't let it happpen.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).

Oh yay, lots of concentrated pebble fire! You've used the game-stats of a supplement, so no, you haven't proved anything to us.

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now.

No we couldn't. No nation on earth is even close to creating anything like Power Armour.

Know why we don't?

Because we can't.

Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor.

Oh, you think you have a reason. Well, any sort of fluff on Space Marines can throw you're ungainly and hard to maneuver misconceptions out the window. Marines are very maneuverable. If they have reflexes that are increased due to their armour, in the Deathwatch book by the way, are around 7 feet tall, and whilst they have bulk, your average corridor isn't built only to accommodate people below 5 foot 5. They could easily walk through the corridors of my school, and my FLGS with some head-room. Walls? Meet muscle-fiber enhanced ceramite fist. Stairs? I've never seen a Space Marine walk up a set of wooden-rickety stairs. Reason? Why the hell would they be walking up wooden stairs, any important building will have solid steal or concrete steps. I think we can throw anything to do with stealth out of the window as well. They aren't stealth fighters.

In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it

Neither will the Space Marine, when he's on his own, which is unlikely given the circumstances. The ratio of Astartes:Mortal increases as the number of Astartes increases. 1 will take 10, but 2 will take 25, and so on. By the time you get to 30 Astartes working together in a combat zone, well, you get the picture.

and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max

The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

Ground forces are able to keep the infrastructure of a planet largely intact, hence why they're used. And Titans, Super Heavies, and psykers.

Belexar wrote:I don't want to read all posts now, but I'll say a few things.

Our Terra is Holy Terra.

We are their past. Exterminating us would probably create some sort of time paradox and screw everything up.

I don't know if the big E was alive back now, but if he was, he wouldn't let it happpen.

IIRC he was at least alive in the Middle Ages, so yeah, he's alive now.

Good. So yeah, here's the deal:

Imperium forces enter orbit. The big E sends them a telephatic message to GTFO. They do. End of story.

Belexar wrote:Good. So yeah, here's the deal:

Imperium forces enter orbit. The big E sends them a telephatic message to GTFO. They do. End of story.

Wouldn't they first gak their pants, and scream like giddy school girls when they realized the emperor spoke to them?

The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

So your saying that hand to hand combat is a good tactic to use?

gendoikari87 wrote:Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).

Where is it shown that a lasgun is as strong as an assault rifle? Also, your fluff is outdated. In Dark Heresy, as I said, autoguns are exactly equivelant to lasguns in both damage dealing and penetration. And once more, autoguns=/=modern assault rifles. Just because they are similarly operated does not make them equivelants.

Also, Space Marines, as shown in the Chaos Marines codex, can take a bolt round to the face from point-blank range, and just be dazed. They also are shown in said book to take bolter fire to the chest and just get mad. This is also in Eisenhorn.

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now.

Primitive as in vastly and drastically inferior.

Know why we don't? Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor.

A Space Marine in power armour is just as nimble inside of it as he is outside of it. I would imagine he'd maneuver inside of the building by going through the walls, these are beings who can punch through ceramite and steels with their fists.. If he really needed to I mean. Most buildings can accomodate a squad or Marines.

Also, I am just saying, the moment a Space Marine has a bullet ping off his armour, his in-built sensors will go off and tell him where it came from. And after that happens, I wouldn't want to be the rifleman who shot him. Since depending on his equipment he can use a jump pack to blow through whatever structure (Assuming a position of high altitude) the rifleman was hiding in, or just plow through it (And keep in mind Marines do in fact use cover if they need to).

Hell, in Fallen Angels, we see an ambush by human Imperial Army men. Their lasguns could barely stop the rampaging Marines, any damage to the armour is swiftly repaired, what actually gets to the Marine is easily shrugged off.

In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it, and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max.

See here is the thing, the moment a bullet pings off the Marine's armour, the Marine knows exactly where it came from due to on-board armour sensors. Also, Marines don't usually go into a stand-up fight. They attack vital areas of the army, and crush it in one sweep.

Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

I find it funny that you deprive Marines of air-support while giving the modern military it. Realistically, any modern army would have no air support at all, not without a unified command structure and with the Imperium dominating the planet's skies.

Well, I haven't heard of the Imperium ever putting out something that can crank out 1,000,000 RPM

King Pariah wrote:Well, I haven't heard of the Imperium ever putting out something that can crank out 1,000,000 RPM

Metalstorm?

gendoikari87 wrote:

Belexar wrote:Good. So yeah, here's the deal:

Imperium forces enter orbit. The big E sends them a telephatic message to GTFO. They do. End of story.

Wouldn't they first gak their pants, and scream like giddy school girls when they realized the emperor spoke to them?

The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

So your saying that hand to hand combat is a good tactic to use?

Yes, because ceramite armor is equivalent to titanium, if not stronger.(C:SM, BRB) It is the strongest material known to man. We have absolutely no weapons which can do any damage to it. Nothing we can throw at it will even scratch the paintwork. Sources (C:SM, C:BA, C: DA, C:BT, BRB) mention that they are faster, more intelligent, and a lot stronger than a normal human. A SM has an implant called the black carapace, which interacts with his power armor, and efficiently turning it into a second skin. It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

They have mono-molecular blades (the edge is one molecule thick) which can cut through tank armor like butter. (C:SM, BRB) It is a pretty good tactic considering that if anyone survives a drop-pod crashing to his head, he will get killed in a second. Modern armies have little training in CC, and are not equipped to engage in it. And certainly not against 8ft tall superhumans who only get irritated when you are shooting them with our inferior weapons and grenades. They have bayonettes or knives at most. Besides, they would run in terror when they saw an enraged superhuman cleaving their friends in half. Space Marines would not have that problem. They have been given hypnotherapy, so they cannot know fear. (C:SM, BRB, all the other codices.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Lets watch as those rounds miss or ping of Power Armour like nothing more than small rocks. If a marine managed to somehow evade the auspex and the advanced targetting equipment of the Astartes, the Cruise missile is far from a guaranteed kill.

Weight of fire or percision stealth shots my friend. They've already shown that a lasgun is about as strong as an assault rifle, and we know lasguns can punch through weak points on a marines armor. and we know autoguns have more penetration than a lasgun (inquisitor).
And you expect the marines to just stand still and let the others snipe them? Their bolters shoot .75 miniature rockets on rapid fire. The moment someone would take a shot, the sky would be thick from bolter fire. (which can destroy buildings) Besides, they would not just roam around the streets. They would drop-pod right over their targets and make precision strikes. For this reason, our SpecOps are hardly seen on the front line, eh?

But the nail in your coffin of "OMG THE MARINES ARE SO HAXORS" is we could build primitive power armor equivalents now.
You pretty much made your own point invalid. Notice the word, Primitive.

Know why we don't?
Because our technology is primitive, remember?

Because they're ungainly, hard to manuver and hard to hide. Seriously, go into any building and imagine how a space marine would manuver in there, they're at least 8 feet tall and several feed wide with the armor.
Yes, because we don't have the technology which the IoM has, hence our versions would be crude contraptions and inferior in every way compared to the armor of the SM. It has been developed and improved for millenia.

In a stand up fight one SM might be able to take on a squad of special forces, but the special forces aren't going to go into a stand up fight if they can avoid it, and for every SM there's probably 100 special forces. I mean we're talking what, one maybe two marine chapters showing up max for a planetary reconquest that's 2000 marines max. Face it the only way the imperium wins is with the big space ships. And if your going to use the big space ships (or even the small ones), Then you don't really need ground forces at all.

You have completely ignored the Imperial Guard. Space Marines are not their front line troopers. They are not even called to assist if the Guard can handle things. Marines don't go into a stand-up fight either, they are drop-podded into special areas of value, where they proceed to destroy priority targets, and then leave. Now, about the Imperial Guard.

They use superior numbers in order to take down an opponent. Their tactics are usually a combination of 1700's fusillier tactics and WWII tacts. They have such massive numbers, that they outnumber any army by millions. Earth can't stand a war of attrition, especially not when it is under siege from all sides by millions of troopers and tanks. History has showed that nations like the Mongols, Soviet Union and Persians have won almost always because the enemy could not match their numbers. Imagine the look on the enemy's face when he saw hundreds of thousands of fanatical troopers charging them with tanks the size of buildings, so many aircraft that they darken the sky and artillery which can destroy platoons of infantry in one shot. Sure, they would suffer grievous losses, like always. But in the end they would just drown the enemy under their wave. Not to mention all the special and heavy weapons they pack. IoM has endless resources.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
The conditions will never be favorable for the Special Forces. Even if they can somehow mobilize to every critical area on the planet within a few hours of hostilities commencing, the Space Marines will always drop right on top of them. Good luck facing an enraged Space Marine with a chainsword after he's just dropped from orbit right through the building you were standing in.

So your saying that hand to hand combat is a good tactic to use?

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight. Bolters, whilst deadly accurate in the hands of Tactical Marine, aren't designed for long-range battles. They used for short ranged battles, it's why Astartes are always seen advancing towards the enemy, or dropped close to them. All the marines have are what the took with them on the ground. When against the Imperium, in which they have absolute orbital superiority, there is no tactical coordination, no crusie missiles, no air-support. At best, the marines are going to have an Abrams or two, maybe and Anti-Materiel rifle. Both of those could potentially kill an Astartes with a direct hit on a vulnerable body-part. The Abrams is for all intents and purposes, an Autocannon using the appropriate shell. Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets. An Abrams using anti-tank shells would likely damage Power Armour if not incapacitate the Astartes if it hits in the right area ie. on the joint's or stomach, but its till a very small target to hit with a tank cannon. A McMillan is the ideal weapon to use against Astartes. Precise, extremely long ranged, and powerful, a hit to a joint may not penetrate first time, but it would certainly crack the armour, and penetrate on a second hit. It probably wouldn't kill outright, Asartes physiology is still able to allow him to carry on with injuries that would outright kill several mortals.

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight.

Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets.

okay now i see your just an unreasonable fanboy who wants to think marines are unkillable monstrosities. Get this through your head, a 120mm cannon is not an autocannon, in fact it will defeat a land raiders armor. Unless you have another source of the armor equivalent of a land raider.

It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

yes I know this already, they're fast, does not mean they are agile. Hell in space marine they can't even jump, they're stopped by a tall pipe. They have less areas they can manuver in and still stick out like a sore thumb, you guys crack me up, you really have no idea about real warfare do you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tell me this if the marines are so vastly superior, how is it that imperial guard regiments have beaten them before.

gendoikari87 wrote:

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight.

And you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about? I take it you just ignored the reasons as to why that is.

Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets.

okay now i see your just an unreasonable fanboy who wants to think marines are unkillable monstrosities. Get this through your head, a 120mm cannon is not an autocannon, in fact it will defeat a land raiders armor. Unless you have another source of the armor equivalent of a land raider.

Or maybe I just read the fluff we're talking about. An Autocannon is based off of tank cannons used in the mid-80s. Guess what? The M1 Abrams main gun is such a weapon. It's a rapid-fire tank cannon, and Power Armour is able to protect against it. Still, the Abrams CAN still take out an Astartes.
No, it won't. One unreliable source that contradicts what actually happens the fluff does not make you right. Land Raiders have been known to absorb the fire of things like Hunter Missiles, Lascannons, Guass weaponry, things like that make an Autocannon look like a pee-shooter. A Land Raider is armoured with stronger material than anything we have on earth, ceramite conducts nearly no heat whatsoever. If Astartes and Land Raiders were armoured like paper, like you seem to think, they wouldn't even survive their first battle, but they do, and live for hundreds of years because they can't be killed by some random hit by a tank.
Oh, and Terminators, deal with that.

It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

yes I know this already, they're fast, does not mean they are agile. Hell in space marine they can't even jump, they're stopped by a tall pipe. They have less areas they can manuver in and still stick out like a sore thumb, you guys crack me up, you really have no idea about real warfare do you?

Fairly agile. If an Astartes can hang from the ceiling of a room undetected by a person standing right beneath, and then slowly lower himself down with one arm, still undetected, then we can say they retain a good deal of their agility.

tell me this if the marines are so vastly superior, how is it that imperial guard regiments have beaten them before.

Numbers, and the fact that they have vastly superior fire-power to any force we have on Earth. But you tell me, what's your source for this event. And give the details, like the numbers of Astartes, tanks, Guard, what weapons, the environment etc.

Dude I was just flipping through one of the old compendiums and spock shows up as a sanctioned psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

One unreliable source that contradicts what actually happens the fluff does not make you right.

and I will end this by saying the same thing about everything you've posted. at least I gave my source, Imperial armour volume II

also the only place that says they're the same as 20th century tank guns, which is a large umbrella which encompasses 25mm cannons which is what they are, also has Space marines listed as Toughness 3. You sir are using antiquaited data.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact your source says nothing about them being equal to 20th century tank guns, but ONLY them using a CONCEPT similar to them.... which is fairly accurate.

gendoikari87 wrote:Dude I was just flipping through one of the old compendiums and spock shows up as a sanctioned psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

One unreliable source that contradicts what actually happens the fluff does not make you right.

and I will end this by saying the same thing about everything you've posted. at least I gave my source, Imperial armour volume II

also the only place that says they're the same as 20th century tank guns, which is a large umbrella which encompasses 25mm cannons which is what they are, also has Space marines listed as Toughness 3. You sir are using antiquaited data.

Which is game-stats and therefore exempt from the background discussion. The fluff stands.

gendoikari87 wrote:

For a squad of Astartes its no better a tactic than partaking in a long-range firefight.

They are tactical marines. If you knew the fluff, you would know that they have been trained for hundreds of years in the art of close combat and ranged warfare alike.

Power Armour has been known to protect against such fire, but an Autocannon is still principally used on armoured targets.

okay now i see your just an unreasonable fanboy who wants to think marines are unkillable monstrosities. Get this through your head, a 120mm cannon is not an autocannon, in fact it will defeat a land raiders armor. Unless you have another source of the armor equivalent of a land raider.

Basically the fluff says that they are unkillable monsters enhanced with implants that make them night invulnerable. I am beginning to wonder if you know any decent fluff at all, besides your beloved Inquisitor?

It is not a clumsy and heavy contraption, it boosts his movement, and he moves in it as easily as if he was naked.(C:SM,C:BT,C:BA,C:BT,C: DA,BRB)

yes I know this already, they're fast, does not mean they are agile. Hell in space marine they can't even jump, they're stopped by a tall pipe. They have less areas they can manuver in and still stick out like a sore thumb, you guys crack me up, you really have no idea about real warfare do you?

Space Marine was written before the background was even completed. Information in that book is outdated and not a real source anymore. You don't see our troopers hopping around the field of battle, do you? They don't need to manouver and duck, their armor stops all possible attacks. Besides, inside buildings they just bash through walls. Have you ever heard of Space Hulk? That's cramped corridors for you. Again, they are not using the same tactics as we are, invalid point.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tell me this if the marines are so vastly superior, how is it that imperial guard regiments have beaten them before.

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

You used a videogame as a source? Really?

Game mechanics have nothing to do with the fluff, because, guess what? It's a game!

As for weaponry, I'll concede that assault rifles and lasguns are on par for power, but thats it. Lasguns are more accurate and are more efficient.

Your tank arguments are also useless, because we don't know the properties of adamantium. It might as well provide triple the amount of protection of anything we know. All speculation at best.

You say CC isn't a good tactic. The problem you have here is; it's not a good tactic for US, our training nor gear, or even natural aptitude leans towards this type of combat. The force we are facing (SM in this case) are fully trained and geared for this purpose alone. All of their tactics and deployment methods are made to get stuck in from the word go.
Assault marines wil absolutely dominate urban enviroments. By either hopping around town, gunning and cutting down any possible threat or smashing through the buildings themselves, while their speed and maneuvrability will keep them protected from any incoming fire, which still has to deal with tank armor if it does connect.

Also, have fun when a vehicle with a flamestorm cannon rolls into town.

As for detection, the IOM uses scanners and sensors vastly superior to ours, almost any major move will be seen by auspexes on the ground.

As for weaponry, I'll concede that assault rifles and lasguns are on par for power, but thats it. Lasguns are more accurate and are more efficient.

you forgot the #1 reason the imperium uses them over autoguns, resupply, you can't have a lot of supply trains going after IG armies to resupply them, so they use a lot of las weaponry.

Game mechanics have nothing to do with the fluff, because, guess what? It's a game!

and the fluff comes from where?

Your tank arguments are also useless, because we don't know the properties of adamantium. It might as well provide triple the amount of protection of anything we know. All speculation at best.

Imperial armour, 98mm thick, provides equivalent to 300mm conventional steel

You say CC isn't a good tactic. The problem you have here is; it's not a good tactic for US, our training nor gear, or even natural aptitude leans towards this type of combat.

Because we have evolved technologically, the reason big heavy armors aren't worth while is that you need mobility, and even if you are just as fast, you can't get into the small spaces you could before. you are harder to hide, and even marine armor has weak points, and heck the eyes can be take out, after that they have to take thieir helmet off, and BAM one headshot and they're gone. There was a reason we abandoned the big thick armor for military applications, after a certain point it becomes negatively effective in terms of battle potential, and then we have IFV's to protect us until we get to the battle. So individual armor has been thrown away outside of basic kevlar and in some armies cases, ceramic inserts. (I don't think any army has or should adpted dragon skin yet, but in fair weather it's basically carapace armour).

while their speed and maneuvrability will keep them protected from any incoming fire

Jetpacks too were abandoned because it became increasingly clear that when you don one, unless your going jet speeds, you are just providing a good target for your enemy.

which still has to deal with tank armor if it does connect.

If the 2" of armor holds true for marines and the ratio for adamantium to CS holds then the marines have an equivalent to 150mm conventional steel armor, which is about 6 inches, which while yes, can be considered 60's and 70's level tank armor is easily defeated by some small arms weapons we have to day such as the 12ga Shaped charge developed for the AA12.

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

true but man for man we're still the superior force against guard.

As for detection, the IOM uses scanners and sensors vastly superior to ours, almost any major move will be seen by auspexes on the ground.

MLRS sensor fused warheads, nicknamed the square kilometer denial service, because it's intellegent submunitions can bust tanks apart, no GPS guidance needed, and basically anything in 1 square kilometer is gone, including tanks. So pretty much the whole marine and guard arguments are invalid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:



go to about 3:30 and this is the early version, the one in the field now is 10x more powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also the german 88mm flack gun that was mentioned.

Pak 43 (abbreviation of Panzerabwehrkanone 43) used a new cruciform mount with the gun much closer to the ground, making it far easier to hide and harder to hit. It was also provided with a much stronger and more angled armour shield to provide better protection. All versions were able to penetrate about 200 mm of armour at 1,000 m, allowing it to defeat the armor of any contemporary tank.

even if this WAS what the autocannon was, 200mm of penetration is about 1/3 of the abrams sabot, and the heat round even more.

gendoikari87 wrote:

As for weaponry, I'll concede that assault rifles and lasguns are on par for power, but thats it. Lasguns are more accurate and are more efficient.

you forgot the #1 reason the imperium uses them over autoguns, resupply, you can't have a lot of supply trains going after IG armies to resupply them, so they use a lot of las weaponry.

Game mechanics have nothing to do with the fluff, because, guess what? It's a game!

and the fluff comes from where?

The books, and backgound information. That's why it's called fluff, and not game mechanics.

Your tank arguments are also useless, because we don't know the properties of adamantium. It might as well provide triple the amount of protection of anything we know. All speculation at best.

Imperial armour, 98mm thick, provides equivalent to 300mm conventional steel.

Fair enough, though I still think the stats in Imperial Armour are completely moronic.

You say CC isn't a good tactic. The problem you have here is; it's not a good tactic for US, our training nor gear, or even natural aptitude leans towards this type of combat.

Because we have evolved technologically, the reason big heavy armors aren't worth while is that you need mobility, and even if you are just as fast, you can't get into the small spaces you could before. you are harder to hide, and even marine armor has weak points, and heck the eyes can be take out, after that they have to take thieir helmet off, and BAM one headshot and they're gone. There was a reason we abandoned the big thick armor for military applications, after a certain point it becomes negatively effective in terms of battle potential, and then we have IFV's to protect us until we get to the battle. So individual armor has been thrown away outside of basic kevlar and in some armies cases, ceramic inserts. (I don't think any army has or should adpted dragon skin yet, but in fair weather it's basically carapace armour).

Well, you still can get into any "small spaces" cause wars on earth aren't being fought in pipes the last time I checked. Also, due to the increased strenght and reflexes, you can argue that they are actually more mobile. As for taking out the eyes, good luck with that. Your not gonna hit a 2 inch surface on a big moving target with any reliabilty to make this a viable strategy. And even if they took their helmets of, a SM's reinforced skull can take a direct hit from regular small arms without any fatal damage.

And yes there was a reason we abandoned our big thick armor, it wasn't actually that thick, and it wasn't powered. The negeative effects you have summed up are all countered by the fact that we are talking about power armor here.

while their speed and maneuvrability will keep them protected from any incoming fire

Jetpacks too were abandoned because it became increasingly clear that when you don one, unless your going jet speeds, you are just providing a good target for your enemy.

Once again, difference in Technology levels, you can't compare those crapfest jetpacks we've managed to make to an Assault marines pack, they work, ours don't because a human body can't even deal with the physical stress it would put on you.

which still has to deal with tank armor if it does connect.

If the 2" of armor holds true for marines and the ratio for adamantium to CS holds then the marines have an equivalent to 150mm conventional steel armor, which is about 6 inches, which while yes, can be considered 60's and 70's level tank armor is easily defeated by some small arms weapons we have to day such as the 12ga Shaped charge developed for the AA12.

Which hasn't seen any major deployment or distribution among armed forces to be considered a giant risk, and it's range isn't all that great to begin with. 12ga rounds also don't have much in the way of muzzle velocity to be able to accurately take down a fast enemy moving in any direction he damn well pleases.

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

true but man for man we're still the superior force against guard.

As for detection, the IOM uses scanners and sensors vastly superior to ours, almost any major move will be seen by auspexes on the ground.

MLRS sensor fused warheads, nicknamed the square kilometer denial service, because it's intellegent submunitions can bust tanks apart, no GPS guidance needed, and basically anything in 1 square kilometer is gone, including tanks. So pretty much the whole marine and guard arguments are invalid.

Apart from the fact these target vehicles only, and require an air force to be delivered. Also, it finds targets by patern matching, good luck with that on previously un-encountered targets.

oh and the M430A1 munition for the M240 grenade launcher is fully capable of piercing that.

No it's not, they have a penetration of 50mm.

The books, and backgound information. That's why it's called fluff, and not game mechanics.

and where is the most reliable information, in the background section of the rulebook.

Well, you still can get into any "small spaces" cause wars on earth aren't being fought in pipes the last time I checked. Also, due to the increased strenght and reflexes, you can argue that they are actually more mobile.

more mobile, POSSIBLY, but then again, the X-15 was "more Mobile" than the X-29, but the X-29 was more manuverable. Point being speed matters for nought when you are having to squeeze into your environment, which is something you can do much easier without said armor.

Your not gonna hit a 2 inch surface on a big moving target with any reliabilty to make this a viable strategy. And even if they took their helmets of, a SM's reinforced skull can take a direct hit from regular small arms without any fatal damage.

Source, type of armament used? Lasguns don't count as they don't have the penetration of assault rifles, at least not M14's which are actually being pulled out of being mothballed.

And yes there was a reason we abandoned our big thick armor, it wasn't actually that thick, and it wasn't powered. The negeative effects you have summed up are all countered by the fact that we are talking about power armor here.

Your right about that, it's called a V8 engine. and the guys inside can get out and hide and actually maneuver.

Once again, difference in Technology levels, you can't compare those crapfest jetpacks we've managed to make to an Assault marines pack, they work, ours don't because a human body can't even deal with the physical stress it would put on you.

They weren't abandoned because the ones we HAD were crap, they were abandoned because the ones we could ever possibly HOPE to make were going to be useless. It was an analysis of future prospects, much like the gyrojet which was abandoned because of inherent flaws in the core design. Granted the marines Magic or electronically guided bolts and pre-charge almost make up for that, and given marines size, they actually make a good weapon. but only with the guidance system, and only with 8 foot tall genetically engineered superhumans.

Which hasn't seen any major deployment or distribution among armed forces to be considered a giant risk, and it's range isn't all that great to begin with. 12ga rounds also don't have much in the way of muzzle velocity to be able to accurately take down a fast enemy moving in any direction he damn well pleases.

No they haven't seen adoption because we aren't fighting 8 foot tall humans with 2 inches of armor. and Slow? do you know what you're talking about? 800-900FPS is not slow.

Apart from the fact these target vehicles only, and require an air force to be delivered. Also, it finds targets by patern matching, good luck with that on previously un-encountered targets.

No they target humans too, and any vehicle like object. that's why they call it the square kilometer denial service, it strips a square kilometer of pretty much all human activity, possibly of all animal activity.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soladrin wrote:No it's not, they have a penetration of 50mm.

your thinking the XM25 round, it's got a penetration of 50mm. I'm talking the 40mm HEAT round, the HEDP might have a slightly lower penetration though, but still useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

As for taking out the eyes, good luck with that.

Shotguns.....

Yea, 50 is the HEDP.

Also, Lasguns have great penetration, a bullet can be deflected.

Source? Numerous IG novels, we have lasguns going through concrete like butter.

Soladrin wrote:Yea, 50 is the HEDP.

Also, Lasguns have great penetration, a bullet can be deflected.

Source? Numerous IG novels, we have lasguns going through concrete like butter.

Then we have extremely conflicting sources because most of the rulebooks backgrounds shows they are less penetrative, but easier to manufacture. Not to mention in rouge trader and Inquisitor lasguns have no penetrative qualities where as even basic primitive black powder have some. at least until you get to the cool las weapons like the sollex death light, and hell pistols.

This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

gendoikari87 wrote:

The books, and backgound information. That's why it's called fluff, and not game mechanics.

and where is the most reliable information, in the background section of the rulebook.

Yeah, the background section. The rules and fluff are separate from each other.

Well, you still can get into any "small spaces" cause wars on earth aren't being fought in pipes the last time I checked. Also, due to the increased strenght and reflexes, you can argue that they are actually more mobile.

more mobile, POSSIBLY, but then again, the X-15 was "more Mobile" than the X-29, but the X-29 was more manuverable. Point being speed matters for nought when you are having to squeeze into your environment, which is something you can do much easier without said armor.

Depends on the environment.

Your not gonna hit a 2 inch surface on a big moving target with any reliabilty to make this a viable strategy. And even if they took their helmets of, a SM's reinforced skull can take a direct hit from regular small arms without any fatal damage.

Source, type of armament used? Lasguns don't count as they don't have the penetration of assault rifles, at least not M14's which are actually being pulled out of being mothballed.

I know Talos in Blood Reaver took a bunch of bolt rounds to the head and survived his helmet being almost destroyed by it.
You're using the game-stats again, point is negligible.

And yes there was a reason we abandoned our big thick armor, it wasn't actually that thick, and it wasn't powered. The negeative effects you have summed up are all countered by the fact that we are talking about power armor here.

Your right about that, it's called a V8 engine. and the guys inside can get out and hide and actually maneuver.

But the point there being that they have to leave their armoured shell to do it, Astartes don't. Well, they can't hide, but they can maneuver as much with the same protection.

Once again, difference in Technology levels, you can't compare those crapfest jetpacks we've managed to make to an Assault marines pack, they work, ours don't because a human body can't even deal with the physical stress it would put on you.

They weren't abandoned because the ones we HAD were crap, they were abandoned because the ones we could ever possibly HOPE to make were going to be useless. It was an analysis of future prospects, much like the gyrojet which was abandoned because of inherent flaws in the core design. Granted the marines Magic or electronically guided bolts and pre-charge almost make up for that, and given marines size, they actually make a good weapon. but only with the guidance system, and only with 8 foot tall genetically engineered superhumans.

Then the point is moot, since we are talking about supersoldiers here. It works for them. If you want an example, read First Heretic, they use Jump Packs very effectively when purging a city of huge glass constructs.

Which hasn't seen any major deployment or distribution among armed forces to be considered a giant risk, and it's range isn't all that great to begin with. 12ga rounds also don't have much in the way of muzzle velocity to be able to accurately take down a fast enemy moving in any direction he damn well pleases.

No they haven't seen adoption because we aren't fighting 8 foot tall humans with 2 inches of armor. and Slow? do you know what you're talking about? 800-900FPS is not slow.

Relatively, it's slow.

Apart from the fact these target vehicles only, and require an air force to be delivered. Also, it finds targets by patern matching, good luck with that on previously un-encountered targets.

No they target humans too, and any vehicle like object. that's why they call it the square kilometer denial service, it strips a square kilometer of pretty much all human activity, possibly of all animal activity.

Do you still need an airforce or launch site to deliver them? If so, you aren't going to see a whole lot of them.

As for taking out the eyes, good luck with that.

Shotguns.....

Lol? If you're that close you might as well give up.

Soladrin wrote:This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

Fluff comes from the rules, remember where the fluff comes from, the games. If a las gun has better penetration they aren't going to make it worse, and then turn around in their description and say it's better. So balance comes from cost, the rules then create fluff. Because otherwise there is no connect between rules and fluff, which is what they try to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I know Talos in Blood Reaver took a bunch of bolt rounds to the head and survived his helmet being almost destroyed by it.
You're using the game-stats again, point is negligible.

and yet in the Space marine movie shots to the gut both penetrated and killed. The point is not negligible because the rules are the core of where the fluff comes from, writers who go off track are not generally reliable, or do you think that ultramarines carry around multi-lasers. because that's in the black library.

also was talos a psyker, that could explain a lot.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

Fluff comes from the rules, remember where the fluff comes from, the games. If a las gun has better penetration they aren't going to make it worse, and then turn around in their description and say it's better. So balance comes from cost, the rules then create fluff. Because otherwise there is no connect between rules and fluff, which is what they try to do.

Wrong, the fluff isn't based on the rules, nor vice versa, the fluff is purely there to flesh things out, this is why so many things GW puts out contradict themselves.

Wrong, the fluff isn't based on the rules, nor vice versa, the fluff is purely there to flesh things out, this is why so many things GW puts out contradict themselves.

So throwing a rock at a wave serpent will make it blow up? Farseers surf to war atop eldar grav tanks and marines carry around multi-lasers?

Le sigh...

Soladrin wrote:Le sigh...

Hey, that's what your saying. the truth is the novels are not a good source at all.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Le sigh...

Hey, that's what your saying. the truth is the novels are not a good source at all.

Thank you for acknowledging our victory.

Soladrin wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Le sigh...

Hey, that's what your saying. the truth is the novels are not a good source at all.

Thank you for acknowledging our victory.

your logic makes no sense but if that's what you want to believe, then by all means, continue in your own deception.

Your grabbing at straws, this discussion is over.

Has anyone seen independence day? The US would totally win.
But in reality I would be the first one to surrender as soon as thiere ships landed.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:This mistake comes up a lot:

Rules =/= fluff, rules should never be interpreted as fluff. Stats need to be balanced.

Fluff comes from the rules, remember where the fluff comes from, the games. If a las gun has better penetration they aren't going to make it worse, and then turn around in their description and say it's better. So balance comes from cost, the rules then create fluff. Because otherwise there is no connect between rules and fluff, which is what they try to do.

You're in denial. The Game-rules are changed to make it balanced, or as what the author thinks is balanced. They aren't related.

I know Talos in Blood Reaver took a bunch of bolt rounds to the head and survived his helmet being almost destroyed by it.
You're using the game-stats again, point is negligible.

and yet in the Space marine movie shots to the gut both penetrated and killed. The point is not negligible because the rules are the core of where the fluff comes from, writers who go off track are not generally reliable, or do you think that ultramarines carry around multi-lasers. because that's in the black library.

also was talos a psyker, that could explain a lot.

I dunno about Ultramarines carrying round multi-lasers, since it was the Blood Ravens, but you know go on. Use two universally panned sources that the community at large generally thinks should be exempt from any discussion thanks to a little bit of Land Raiders transforming into Razorbacks, and back flipping Terminators. Nearly every other source has Power Armour taking a lot more than two hits. The Horus Heresy series, Blood Reaver, Soul Hunter, the Ultramarines series, they all have pretty much the same consensus, that Power Armour isn't make of wicker.
Also, Talos could only see the future. Xarl went through the same punishment.

So what makes C.S. Goto so much more unreliable as a source than all the others in the black library?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You're in denial. The Game-rules are changed to make it balanced, or as what the author thinks is balanced. They aren't related.

By this reasoning guardsmen could be more skilled than marines, or bigger, and stronger.

From my friend (this is copied from a message on facebook) - The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75. The Imperium has better equipment, better training and MUCH more manpower. No one has said the autocannon is a 120mm more likely a 60-70mm. To make thing fair, let's remove both navies. That means the vast majority of you're cruise missiles will disappear and our orbital firepower goes. Despite this, the IoM would still have the edge in firepower, equipment (if you dispute this, try and argue with plasma, melta, laser and vortex technology), maneouvrability and manpower. Then we have your sources: Imperial armour (everyone agrees is unreliable), you're knowledge of American weaponry which has most likely been affected by propaganda, and inquisitor which is a game. See a problem there?

Exterminatus... OR THEY COULD SIT BACK AND WATCH US KILL OUR SELVES IN OUR OWN WARS, PLAGUES AND GLOBAL DISASTERS...

Blood Angels, sit back and watch the show as the an Alternative us Kills them selves.

gendoikari87 wrote:So what makes C.S. Goto so much more unreliable as a source than all the others in the black library?

Back-flipping Terminators. The constant use of multi-lasers. Transforming Land Raiders. All Eldar secretly worship Slannesh. Eldar Farseer falling in love with a Space Marine. A 30 year-old random guy being turned into a Space Marine, and isn't killed when he has weird tentacle hands. There's more, believe me.

You're in denial. The Game-rules are changed to make it balanced, or as what the author thinks is balanced. They aren't related.

By this reasoning guardsmen could be more skilled than marines, or bigger, and stronger.

Lolwut? You can't get that from this line of reasoning in any way!

First off, we're screwed, our leaders incompetent, trying to fight a more numerically and scientifically advance force with air supremecy.

We should capitulate.

I would personally try and join the guard citing previus military experience. Always wanted to see other planets... and hey, I get a laser gun. Can't beat getting a laser gun.

Colonel Dakura wrote:From my friend (this is copied from a message on facebook) - The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75. The Imperium has better equipment, better training and MUCH more manpower. No one has said the autocannon is a 120mm more likely a 60-70mm. To make thing fair, let's remove both navies. That means the vast majority of you're cruise missiles will disappear and our orbital firepower goes. Despite this, the IoM would still have the edge in firepower, equipment (if you dispute this, try and argue with plasma, melta, laser and vortex technology), maneouvrability and manpower. Then we have your sources: Imperial armour (everyone agrees is unreliable), you're knowledge of American weaponry which has most likely been affected by propaganda, and inquisitor which is a game. See a problem there?

Yes because propaganda changes the laws of physics? Also, what makes your sources so much more reliable, and imperial armour unreliable, you haven't really said that yet, and your novels are at best inconsistent. Your argument is falling apart. Also plasma technology? Not really better than shaped charges, maybe cheaper. Melta? Close range, Might be a lot more powerful but the guy with it has to get close, which might be possible for a guardsmen, but a marine? well you can see them coming from a mile away, and they can't just sneak up, even drop podding in they're vulnerable. Lasers? yeah they're good, guided missiles are better.

Back-flipping Terminators. The constant use of multi-lasers. Transforming Land Raiders. All Eldar secretly worship Slannesh. Eldar Farseer falling in love with a Space Marine. A 30 year-old random guy being turned into a Space Marine, and isn't killed when he has weird tentacle hands. There's more, believe me.

Your point? your sources have people getting shot in the head, and surviving, Magic armor that's impenetrable, and an infantry weapon that can kill a tank. All of which is just unlikely. So again, why is your source so much more reliable than C.S. Goto, is it your opinion, because that's the only thing separating it, both are just as far from the source material.

The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75. The Imperium has better equipment, better training and MUCH more manpower.

Uh huh, and why did we get beaten again? I'll give you a hint it wasn't because they were all wearing power armor.

Lolwut? You can't get that from this line of reasoning in any way!

Oh so the rules mean something now? The background stuff in the rulebooks suddenly is valid when it supports YOUR oppinion?

gendoikari87 wrote:

Back-flipping Terminators. The constant use of multi-lasers. Transforming Land Raiders. All Eldar secretly worship Slannesh. Eldar Farseer falling in love with a Space Marine. A 30 year-old random guy being turned into a Space Marine, and isn't killed when he has weird tentacle hands. There's more, believe me.

Your point? your sources have people getting shot in the head, and surviving, Magic armor that's impenetrable, and an infantry weapon that can kill a tank. All of which is just unlikely. So again, why is your source so much more reliable than C.S. Goto, is it your opinion, because that's the only thing separating it, both are just as far from the source material.

My sources were books from renowned Black Library authors that have time, and time again, proven that they can be consistent within the universe. You won't find crap like the above in any of Graham McNeil's or Aron Dembski-Bowden's books. C.S Goto just invented stuff, his Dawn of War books are not good sources of reason and reliability.

Lolwut? You can't get that from this line of reasoning in any way!

Oh so the rules mean something now? The background stuff in the rulebooks suddenly is valid when it supports YOUR oppinion?

Now you're not making any sense. The background section in the rulebook is always valid, I've never said otherwise. The RULES aren't, because they don't stick to what the fluff says.

My sources were books from renowned Black Library authors that have time, and time again, proven that they can be consistent within the universe. You won't find crap like the above in any of Graham McNeil's or Aron Dembski-Bowden's books. C.S Goto just invented stuff, his Dawn of War books are not good sources of reason and reliability.

Black library author v Black library author.

Now you're not making any sense. The background section in the rulebook is always valid, I've never said otherwise. The RULES aren't, because they don't stick to what the fluff says

.............. You mean like the background section in imperial armour Volume II on the landraider?

.... Do you even get that your logic is inconsistent?

Colonel Dakura wrote:The U.S was beaten by a bunch of illiterate rice farmers in 1965-75.

Militarily speaking, the US dominated the Vietnam War. The fact that they eventually left wasn't actually because the Vietcong were defeating the US forces.

gendoikari87 wrote:

My sources were books from renowned Black Library authors that have time, and time again, proven that they can be consistent within the universe. You won't find crap like the above in any of Graham McNeil's or Aron Dembski-Bowden's books. C.S Goto just invented stuff, his Dawn of War books are not good sources of reason and reliability.

Black library author v Black library author.

Yep. And as such, C.S Goto is the worst author we've seen for Black Library, hence why no one uses his books as a source for anything, even when it would benefit them. Example, the agility of Space Marines, if a Terminator can backflip, Power Armoured Marines can parkour like champs. But, I wouldn't because they source is unreliable. Soul Hunter however, is very reliable.

Now you're not making any sense. The background section in the rulebook is always valid, I've never said otherwise. The RULES aren't, because they don't stick to what the fluff says

.............. You mean like the background section in imperial armour Volume II on the landraider?

.... Do you even get that your logic is inconsistent?

I do not. It's you who aren't making the blindest bit of sense. The game-rules are exempt from a discussion on the background, because the two are separate. What you cited was a source that contradicted what the Land Raider can actually do in the fluff.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Because, as I have already said, they have so many troopers that they swarm around them and overwhelm them with sheer numbers.

true but man for man we're still the superior force against guard.

That's not true in any way. Flak armour is far superior to IBA, the Lasgun is more accurate, efficient and penetrative than any modern assault rifle, Guardsmen have experience of full scale war whereas modern soldiers haven't, Elysian and Cadian Guardsmen especially have far more thorough training than our most elite SF, and it isn't even worth mentioning Kasrkin and similair. I imagine the second we see thousands of laser and plasma shots flying towards us we'd run for the hills- because modern soldiers aren't any where near as experienced as the average Guardsman.

Soul Hunter however, is very reliable.

Only your opinion not fact.

Let me put it to you simple like.


You

The background section in the rulebook is always valid

Imperial Armour GW officially sanctioned rulebook

Page 82 Background Section

The front armor is 98 mm Thick, but provides protection equivalent to approximately 300mm conventional steel armor

Chapter Approved Page 78, background part of the entry, diagram

91-95mm (note: 2 layers of ceramite, 1 titanium/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, equivalent to 365mm conventional steel armour)

same thing shows up in Lexicanum. three sources in general agreeance.

Now if you want consistency, the autocannon at 25-30mm Cannot penetrate it, the basic gen 2 Imperial guard Krak missile is just shy. ALL IN AGREEANCE. You have selected a source from a pool that is extremely inconsistant and often written by people who do not care much about the background, and therefore cannot be trusted. Not only that, but they are NOT DIRECT SOURCES, mine are.

You loose. Period, you have no argument against this unless you can pull from material DIRECT from GW, or forgeworld to prove otherwise.

I'm not making sense to you, because you don't want me to.

It's valid alright, it still contradicts with what Land Raiders are seen as doing in the fluff. Have a look at what First Claw's Land Raider manages to shrug off in Soul Hunter. That's what a Land Raider is like, not what the idiots writing stats for Imperial Armour think. Yes, they are fools to think that Adamantium, a substance even GW says is stronger than anything we have on earth, coupled with two layers of a substance that shrugs of multiple Autocannon shots and conducts almost no heat is equal to not even half of what is on an Abrams. And this is apparently the most heavily armoured vehicle the Astartes can field. I can guarantee there's a few examples in that very book that contradict the stats they give.


Oh, and Lexicanum isn't an extra source for you to add on there.

Why does everyone assume the Imperial Guard is a bunch of bumbling fools? I know someone has to be the butt monkey of the game to make the poster boys look better, but honestly your flanderizing them to death. A single regiment will have no combined arms tactics because regiments are comprised of either Infantry, Armor, or Artillery as stated in Codex Imperial Guard. An Imperial Battle group is made up of multiple regiments. So you'll have the ability to have combined arms type warfare. The Imperial Guard is the best of the planets PDF, either having actual combat experience, or trained in military academies. Again, Imperial Guard Codex, so its canon. Dark Hersey states The Guard is the back bone of the Imperium's military might. Proving Millions UPON millions of well-trained men and women. The Guard has many different styles, from vast conscript armies ("Conscription: compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service" from Marriam-Webster), elite special forces, massive tank columns and glorious sabre welding cavalry.

Imperial Guard commanders can rely on advisers who can predict the future (the astrpath), or Can coordinate with the navy to disrupt enemy reinforcements. (Officer of the fleet)

The standard body armor of the guard is sufficient to stop a .50cal round.
Carapace, which grenadiers and heavy assault regiments are equipped with can stop bolters, which must have more penetrating power then a .50cal.

The humble lasgun has better range than an autogun (equivalent to or better then our assault rifles) has a bigger clip, is more reliable, cost less and can be recharge by either the sun, electrical outlets, or in emergencies, fire. (source: Dark Hersey)

The Imperious will have complete air superiority. The whole space ships in orbit that the us cant hurt ensures this. They will target military installations, and destruct manufacturing plants and the ability to move troops.

The Imperium will outnumber us significantly. Thats SOP with the Guard.

Now the whole time you've been using the US army as the main opponent. Guess what, most of the worlds militarizes are not as advanced as us. South and Central America, falls almost immediately. Africa same. Russia and China might hold them off for a while, but again they are not as advanced as the US. So you got North America, and Europe left, with a pocket of US soldiers in Iraq who will hold out. Eastern Europe is not as advanced as the west, so it falls. The Lord General Militant's Tacticians realizes we are reliant on fossil fuels. Imperial Spec ops and/or Navy assets target our refineries and oil fields. The US runs out of oil. Its tanks mean nothing. Its planes mean nothing. Its reduced to a army 100 years out of date.

Now if you want to see an example of this on a smaller scale, i suggest you research World War 2. Germany was denied oil, its superior tanks and planes where no use. The allies had air superiority so the Germans had trouble moving troops. And the allies out numbered the Germans. The allies also struck at Germany's weaker allies and took them out of the fight. This would be the IoM annexation of Earth.

Now your going to cherry pick and only answer one thing, and this discussion will continue to be one giant circle. Long story short, WE LOSE.

Note: Not to dis any other country out there, i'm just proving a point, I honestly dont think my country could fight the IoM either, and our military is one of the biggest and most advanced in the world.

Edit: I forgot all about psykers. Something Earth has never seen before. So just using the Imperial Guard codex, they will make infantry abandon their post out of fear, sheer mind numbing fear. Rip them to shreds with warp energy, or electrocute them with warp lightning (i always imagine the Emperor's lightning from Return of the Jedi). Using other sources, it gets worse.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Has anyone seen independence day? The US would totally win.
But in reality I would be the first one to surrender as soon as thiere ships landed.

So a crappy american scifi-movie proves that they would win the IoM? All Hollywood movies have that inevitable "happy ending".

@ gendoikari87 (again from my friend) - no they were not wearing power armour, I used it to get it through that thick skull of yours that the US armed forces are NOT invulnerable as you seem to believe. And my source is called common sense and history. And you appear to believe that superheated ionised gas (superheated as in 50,000+ .C) isn't as good as a shaped charge. There are shaped charge equivalents in 40K too, they're called Krak missiles/grenades. And to represent their obviously superior pentetrating power, they have an AP higher than plasma in all forms. And no propaganda doesn't change physics it just makes people like you blindly believe that their weapons are vastly superior to everything else. Mano a Mano, the US military may be superior than the average guardsman, it's funny to see how drastically the odds change when you throw the rest of the Imperium in. They will outnumber you at least 20:1 an exceptionally conservative estimate if you ask me more likely 100,000:1 really minus marines, air support and armour.

@somerandomevilguy (again from my friend) - Technically the VC were because they booby-trapped everything, and as such made the marines suspicious which in turn made them "waste" civvies, who then became VC and the fact that the kill ratios are generally exaggerated. The Australian kill ratios are much smaller because they said only a corpse or a 200m blood trail counts as a kill.

@ gendoikari87 (from me) - I personally have NO interest on any level of any military organisation (and therefore next to nothing in the way of knowledge) as i find it waste of time, resources and people, but i know that continuing this argument is completely pointless as regardless of skill or an infantry's wargear, a vast space fleet ready to annihilate any and all ground forces with a very fierce orbital bombardment kind of overrules any ground infantry. Even without Orbital support, how do you plan on dealing with Terminators? Bearing in mind a scout is essentially the equivalent of today's Juggernaut.

Guess what, most of the worlds militarizes are not as advanced as us.

Only using them as an example because they are the standard. For instance most modernized tanks are roughly equivalent to the M1A2 Abrams. Challenger 2, Leopard, Chinese Type 99, T-12 and T-90. Most of the world uses some form of 5.56x45NATO assault rifle, but have access to 7.62x51Nato assault rifles. Most have some form reuseable Gen III RPG capable of 600mm penetration or better, and a disposable. Forms differ, but it mostly stays the same.

sabre welding cavalry

Lol, roughriders would be fethed, and pretty useless.

The standard body armor of the guard is sufficient to stop a .50cal round.

This is bs. Flack armor is flexible even if the round doesn't penetrate it's going to kill.

Carapace, which grenadiers and heavy assault regiments are equipped with can stop bolters, which must have more penetrating power then a .50cal.

False notion, Greatly reduced weight and density, even with the hardened tip mean they're not anywhere near as penetrating. Even with increased speed.

The humble lasgun has better range than an autogun

does it say what the range was?

The Imperious will have complete air superiority. The whole space ships in orbit that the us cant hurt ensures this.

Which almost completely negates the need for a ground war in the first place.

Russia and China might hold them off for a while, but again they are not as advanced as the US

Guess I probably shouldn't mention that the Chinese have just as good, if not better tech than we do.

Eastern Europe is not as advanced as the west

Again bs, supplied by the russians.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

And you appear to believe that superheated ionised gas (superheated as in 50,000+ .C) isn't as good as a shaped charge.

it's not it dissipates quickly and the jet of the shaped charge is a copper spear that travels in excess of 10k/s

So a crappy american scifi-movie proves that they would win the IoM? All Hollywood movies have that inevitable "happy ending".

That was sarcasm. Seriously, people, get you a snark-o-meter when reading on the internet. Much will make sense.

As far as the IoM versus Earth?

Earth loses. There's a reason we separate our military into "regular dudes/dudettes" and "Special Forces". Fighting the Imperial Guard is like fighting several million dudes and dudettes from "the Special Forces" all at the same time.

And they have laser guns.

You cannot possibly fathom what an army that is ten million soldiers strong looks like. China, with the world's largest land military, doesn't even get to half that. The IoM may deploy that many just to make a strong impression, and not feth around with the operation for too long.

, a vast space fleet ready to annihilate any and all ground forces with a very fierce orbital bombardment kind of overrules any ground infantry.

I believe I already made this point a while back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You cannot possibly fathom what an army that is ten million soldiers strong looks like. China, with the world's largest land military, doesn't even get to half that. The IoM may deploy that many just to make a strong impression, and not feth around with the operation for too long.

So much bs here, chinas army is 300million strong. 2million active duty and can call up 300million

If the imperium is only throwing 10,000,000 guardsmen and 2000 space marines at us, excluding the giant space ships we win, big.

Likely they would throw something like a BILLION at us.

300 million? Riiiiiiiight. In what imaginary world is this? They have around 4.5 million, with the capability to enroll a huge amount of ordinary citizens. Not much an army considering this would A. Never happen, because they aren't going to call up every single soldier they can find at once B. Never happen because the logistics would be impossible. C. Never happen because it would cripple China's war capability due to the resources and D. Never happen because all command within every major country in the world will be taken out within a few days, that includes China.

If the Imperium throws that at us we're doomed. Those forces are superior in every way.
Still, what can we do against Titans, against Psykers, against Super-heavies, against all the other tech Space Marines bring to the field?

iproxtaco wrote:300 million? Riiiiiiiight. In what imaginary world is this? They have around 4.5 million.

2.2 Million Active duty
800,000 Reserve
385,821,101 men availible for military duty
363,789,674 Women availible for military duty.

america
1.4M active
1.4M Reserve
only 73M and 72M availible for Duty

@ gendokari87. The fething navy is not being excluded. Its not called IoM landforces vs earth. Its IoM vs Earth. Sure we'd put up a fight, sure we'd kill some guardsmen, but we will lose. Stop cherry picking or admit defeat.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:300 million? Riiiiiiiight. In what imaginary world is this? They have around 4.5 million.

2.2 Million Active duty
800,000 Reserve
385,821,101 men availible for military duty
363,789,674 Women availible for military duty.

america
1.4M active
1.4M Reserve
only 73M and 72M availible for Duty

Your point fails. Neither country is capable of enlisting it's entire adult population, even during peace-time, let alone when facing a force as dominating as the Imperium.

against all the other tech Space Marines bring to the field?

Hellfire missiles, G2G missiles, MLRS, we've got a lot

Titans, against Psykers, against Super-heavies

tactical nuclear weapons work nicely. failing that Strategic weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your point fails. Neither country is capable of enlisting it's entire adult population, even during peace-time, let alone when facing a force as dominating as the Imperium.

The earth is being invaded by aliens and you don't think they're going to call up everyone that's able? Hell most of the american population already has some form of rifle.

Besides china and america along have nearly 4 million ACTIVE duty personell. and that's just america and china, not even mentioning russia, france, germany, israel, sweden, Britan, or a slew of a LOT of other first class armies. It's going to take a lot more than just 10 million

@ gendoikari87, Quit cherry-picking.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:@ gendoikari87, Quit cherry-picking.

Hey, i'm not the one rejecting GW official books as cannon. Quit being Space marine Fanboys.

gendoikari87 wrote:

against all the other tech Space Marines bring to the field?

Hellfire missiles, G2G missiles, MLRS, we've got a lot

Explained before, any sort of long-range tactical coordination is gone within a few days, be it by Orbital bombardment, or Orbital insertions. No one is going to drop a few cruise missiles on the Earth's most important locations.

Titans, against Psykers, against Super-heavies

tactical nuclear weapons work nicely. failing that Strategic weapons.

Ah of course! We'll Nuke ourselves! Not an option, see previous reasons as to why any of this kind of tactical response is gone within a few days. Anyway, even if we could, by that point I think it would be fairly obvious the situation is hopeless and we've lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:@ gendoikari87, Quit cherry-picking.

Hey, i'm not the one rejecting GW official books as cannon. Quit being Space marine Fanboys.

GW doesn't have a thing called canon.

Lol? They still can't feasibly call up the entire adult population, especially not with numbers like that, it's literally impossible for reasons already given.

gendoikari87 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:@ gendoikari87, Quit cherry-picking.

Hey, i'm not the one rejecting GW official books as cannon. Quit being Space marine Fanboys.

Hey neither am I. Infact i'm using the rulebooks. If you read my post you'd know that, and i've never once mention Space marines. So quit being illogical super patriot 'Murican!

This is still goin?

I believe I already made this point a while back.

Then why are you still arguing?

I enjoy it.

forruner_mercy wrote:This is still goin?

I like poking at the faboys who know nothing about war and think Marines are "THE ROXORS!!" When the guys that write this stuff even don't know anything about real military tech or tactics.

gendoikari87 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:This is still goin?

I like poking at the faboys who know nothing about war and think Marines are "THE ROXORS!!" When the guys that write this stuff even don't know anything about real military tech or tactics.

Mate do you even read posts. If you truely believe the Earth could hold out against the IoM, I got a bridge to sell you...

Also i hate the Space Marines. Which is why i play and read imperial guard.

Explained before, any sort of long-range tactical coordination is gone within a few days, be it by Orbital bombardment, or Orbital insertions. No one is going to drop a few cruise missiles on the Earth's most important locations.

You do realize not all weapons are GPS guided and not all are visible from space right, and that's assuming the imprium has space ships, which kind of negates the ground war to start with.

Hey neither am I. Infact i'm using the rulebooks. If you read my post you'd know that, and i've never once mention Space marines. So quit being illogical super patriot 'Murican!

Quit being an illogical GW fanboy!

Mate do you even read posts. If you truely believe the Earth could hold out against the IoM, I got a bridge to sell you...

No, but only because they have space ships. No other reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ah of course! We'll Nuke ourselves! Not an option, see previous reasons as to why any of this kind of tactical response is gone within a few days. Anyway, even if we could, by that point I think it would be fairly obvious the situation is hopeless and we've lost.

Do you even know what a tactical warhead is? They aren't GPS, or silo based, most of them aren't even guided.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:This is still goin?

I like poking at the faboys who know nothing about war and think Marines are "THE ROXORS!!" When the guys that write this stuff even don't know anything about real military tech or tactics.

Mate do you even read posts. If you truely believe the Earth could hold out against the IoM, I got a bridge to sell you...

Also i hate the Space Marines. Which is why i play and read imperial guard.

Do ANY of you read mine, I already showed what the armor equivalent was of the land raider, and how it stacks up to modern weapons. Which by extrapolation, can then be used for the rest of the imperium.

@ gendoikari87 - Do you play 40k at all?

Colonel Dakura wrote:@ gendoikari87 - Do you play 40k at all?

Imperial Guard yes.

Okay, So limitless numbers of men armed with superior armor and weapons doesn't matter. Or people who can explode your head with their mind. Not being a fanboy, being realistic.


And actually i'm starting to believe you don't actually know any thing about the military. The only way to control an area is with boots on the ground. By your logic having air/space superiority would have meant the US didn't need troops in Vietnam. Or Iraq or Iraq II. I'm so glad we have such skilled military genius such as you in command, i mean other wise we'd have to actually have troops in Iraq...

gendoikari87 wrote:

Explained before, any sort of long-range tactical coordination is gone within a few days, be it by Orbital bombardment, or Orbital insertions. No one is going to drop a few cruise missiles on the Earth's most important locations.

You do realize not all weapons are GPS guided and not all are visible from space right, and that's assuming the imprium has space ships, which kind of negates the ground war to start with.

Yeah, it was me who went and wrote a whole paragraph detailing how TERCOM systems work. That wasn't why we'd have no air or missile support. We'd have none because any sort of place that has the capability to fire them will be targeted by orbiting ships via bombardment or troop insertion, or the hot-spots will be exactly where we don't want to fire Tomahawk missiles at.
Yes, they would have ships. How do you think they got to Earth in first place?

Hey neither am I. Infact i'm using the rulebooks. If you read my post you'd know that, and i've never once mention Space marines. So quit being illogical super patriot 'Murican!

Quit being an illogical GW fanboy!

Yay, we're fanboys because we disagree with you. Not really. The Imperium has crushed countless worlds like ours in the past.

Oh, so you're basing your entire argument by "extrapolating" from an already contradicted piece of information. You just lost the argument.

Also, a single tactical nuke wouldn't even kill a Warlord class titan.

I agree with ObliviousBlueCaboose. Also @ gendoikari87 - I think you might be happier playing Call of Duty, of Flames of War.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Okay, So limitless numbers of men armed with superior armor and weapons doesn't matter. Or people who can explode your head with their mind. Not being a fanboy, being realistic.


And actually i'm starting to believe you don't actually know any thing about the military. The only way to control an area is with boots on the ground. By your logic having air/space superiority would have meant the US didn't need troops in Vietnam. Or Iraq or Iraq II. I'm so glad we have such skilled military genius such as you in command, i mean other wise we'd have to actually have troops in Iraq...

when you have the ability to raize a planet to the ground boots on the ground don't matter when your goal is total conquest. You can basically hold them at gunpoint until they submit. Iraq, Vietnam, and the like, our goal was not to completely conquor nor did we want to raise the nations to the ground, kinda get bad rep for that in the international community.


If they are truely limited then yes, they will, however that is not what i'm arguing, what i'm arguing is this insane notion that the IG and space marines are "THE HAXORS AWESOME" when anyone with any real military experience knows just how outlandish most of the marines style and equipment is, and the guard aren't much better in terms of actual tech than WWII era soldiers with assault rifles. Plasma guns? HA, plasma repels itself and dissipates quickly. Now, the guards missile launchers, autocannons, assault rifles and tactics, are at least reasonable however they might be as well trained but excluding lascannons, they are outdated or their tech is a joke concieved by people who know nothing about how gak actually works, and the only reason it's believable that they stand a chance against tyrannids, orks and eldar, is A) rule of cool, B) the other races tech is even more outlandishly stupid. Save maybe for tau who at least have tactics figured out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yay, we're fanboys because we disagree with you. Not really. The Imperium has crushed countless worlds like ours in the past.

yeah because they can crush under weight of numbers, when the guard mobilize for campaigns they aren't numbered in millions but billions.

Oh, so you're basing your entire argument by "extrapolating" from an already contradicted piece of information. You just lost the argument.

yeah and your information is WAY more contradictory, inconsistent, and untrustworth.

I agree with ObliviousBlueCaboose. Also @ gendoikari87 - I think you might be happier playing Call of Duty, of Flames of War.

Nah, Flames f war doesn't have 8foot tall guys with giant freaking swords. I'm just smart enough to realize that's not a good way to wage war, no matter how cool it is.

gendoikari87 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Okay, So limitless numbers of men armed with superior armor and weapons doesn't matter. Or people who can explode your head with their mind. Not being a fanboy, being realistic.


And actually i'm starting to believe you don't actually know any thing about the military. The only way to control an area is with boots on the ground. By your logic having air/space superiority would have meant the US didn't need troops in Vietnam. Or Iraq or Iraq II. I'm so glad we have such skilled military genius such as you in command, i mean other wise we'd have to actually have troops in Iraq...

when you have the ability to raize a planet to the ground boots on the ground don't matter when your goal is total conquest. You can basically hold them at gunpoint until they submit. Iraq, Vietnam, and the like, our goal was not to completely conquor nor did we want to raise the nations to the ground, kinda get bad rep for that in the international community.


If they are truely limited then yes, they will, however that is not what i'm arguing, what i'm arguing is this insane notion that the IG and space marines are "THE HAXORS AWESOME" when anyone with any real military experience knows just how outlandish most of the marines style and equipment is, and the guard aren't much better in terms of actual tech than WWII era soldiers with assault rifles. Plasma guns? HA, plasma repels itself and dissipates quickly. Now, the guards missile launchers, autocannons, assault rifles and tactics, are at least reasonable however they might be as well trained but excluding lascannons, they are outdated or their tech is a joke concieved by people who know nothing about how gak actually works, and the only reason it's believable that they stand a chance against tyrannids, orks and eldar, is A) rule of cool, B) the other races tech is even more outlandishly stupid. Save maybe for tau who at least have tactics figured out.

In other words, US Military is better because Warhammer 40k is a SCI-FI universe, and has SCI-FI weapons, and since you want to transplant them into reality, none of them actually work. Good job mate, good job.

So you're arguing that it can't compare because you simply don't like the fiction? You lost the argument when you said you based it on an "extrapolation" of an already contradicted piece of information, but jesus.

iproxtaco wrote:So you're arguing that it can't compare because you simply don't like the fiction? You lost the argument when you said you based it on an "extrapolation" of an already contradicted piece of information, but jesus.

YOUR INFORMATION IS JUST AS CONTRADICTORY I SWEAR IT"S LIKE TALKING TO REPUBLICANS!! I take it you deny global warming too!

Skal098 wrote:The only shot earth would have at delaying/annoying the imperium is in the worlds collective air force, 40k universe has crap for air support, and most of the nations with a decent military all believe that air superiority=win.

Which is gonna do jack, what with they have starships and all.
Besides, Lightnings dont seem to be terrible by modern standard.
Their air to ground attack capability is much better than ours.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Yay, we're fanboys because we disagree with you. Not really. The Imperium has crushed countless worlds like ours in the past.

yeah because they can crush under weight of numbers, when the guard mobilize for campaigns they aren't numbered in millions but billions.

Billions? Not too sure about that one. In fact, I've NEVER heard of them being mobilized for any old campaign in the billions. Even Heresy-era Crusade Fleets had no where near these kinds of numbers, but they still conquered planets like ours, probably hundreds of them.

Oh, so you're basing your entire argument by "extrapolating" from an already contradicted piece of information. You just lost the argument.

yeah and your information is WAY more contradictory, inconsistent, and untrustworth.

Go one, detail how this info is like how you say.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:So you're arguing that it can't compare because you simply don't like the fiction? You lost the argument when you said you based it on an "extrapolation" of an already contradicted piece of information, but jesus.

YOUR INFORMATION IS JUST AS CONTRADICTORY I SWEAR IT"S LIKE TALKING TO REPUBLICANS!! I take it you deny global warming too!

Global warming as prophesized by that nutter over there is gobshit. It's the earths natural warming up and cooling down cycle it's always had, we have no hand in it.

But lets not get into a enviromental discussion here, cause you clearly aren't up for that.

Whats a "THE HAXORS AWESOME"?

See how can you say outdated? If the weapons are outdated how come we don't have any lasguns? You don't know what the exact specification are, how they perform or really anything. And plasma guns are highly effective in fluff, which may mean they have discovered a may to use it effectively.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:So you're arguing that it can't compare because you simply don't like the fiction? You lost the argument when you said you based it on an "extrapolation" of an already contradicted piece of information, but jesus.

YOUR INFORMATION IS JUST AS CONTRADICTORY I SWEAR IT"S LIKE TALKING TO REPUBLICANS!! I take it you deny global warming too!

So you admit your info is contradictory? I disagree that mine is, but it's nice to see you concede the argument for a third time.

Do the imperial fighters even have missiles? That's the one area the imperium outclasses real world otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:So you're arguing that it can't compare because you simply don't like the fiction? You lost the argument when you said you based it on an "extrapolation" of an already contradicted piece of information, but jesus.

YOUR INFORMATION IS JUST AS CONTRADICTORY I SWEAR IT"S LIKE TALKING TO REPUBLICANS!! I take it you deny global warming too!

So you admit your info is contradictory? I disagree that mine is, but it's nice to see you concede the argument for a third time.

MY sources are consistent with themselves, they only contradict yours. YOUR information contradicts itself. Mines also actually from GW. YOUR's is from fans that got published, which isn't much more reliable than most fanworks.

gendoikari87 wrote:Do the imperial fighters even have missiles? That's the one area the imperium outclasses real world otherwise.

They fly as fast as our jet fighters, whilst armoured like a Leman Russ. Yes they have missiles, they have lascannons, and don't need air-strips.
So it's like every area of military tech with the Imperium, generally better than what we have.

See how can you say outdated? If the weapons are outdated how come we don't have any lasguns? You don't know what the exact specification are, how they perform or really anything. And plasma guns are highly effective in fluff, which may mean they have discovered a may to use it effectively.

Even their desriptions in the fluff show how useless they are, they're only worth using because they're cool. Otherwise the same can be done cheaper with other methods, that don't give away your position, and/or require getting close.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:So you're arguing that it can't compare because you simply don't like the fiction? You lost the argument when you said you based it on an "extrapolation" of an already contradicted piece of information, but jesus.

YOUR INFORMATION IS JUST AS CONTRADICTORY I SWEAR IT"S LIKE TALKING TO REPUBLICANS!! I take it you deny global warming too!

So you admit your info is contradictory? I disagree that mine is, but it's nice to see you concede the argument for a third time.

MY sources are consistent with themselves, they only contradict yours. YOUR information contradicts itself. Mines also actually from GW. YOUR's is from fans that got published, which isn't much more reliable than most fanworks.

Now you're doubling back on yourself and just making stuff up. But again, how do my sources contradict each other?

So it's like every area of military tech with the Imperium, generally better than what we have.

Nah, only the imperial air force. I think you forgot some of them are also capable of interstellar flight.

gendoikari87 wrote:

See how can you say outdated? If the weapons are outdated how come we don't have any lasguns? You don't know what the exact specification are, how they perform or really anything. And plasma guns are highly effective in fluff, which may mean they have discovered a may to use it effectively.

Even their desriptions in the fluff show how useless they are, they're only worth using because they're cool. Otherwise the same can be done cheaper with other methods, that don't give away your position, and/or require getting close.

You call killing marines with a single shot useless? And felling most of the more powerful troops in the universe with 1 or 2 shots? Plasmaguns are one of the most potent hand held weapons in the IOM, the only problem is their volatile nature.

And let's not get into what a Plasmacannon would do with any of our current tech...

Now you're doubling back on yourself and just making stuff up. But again, how do my sources contradict each other?

C.S. Goto? You have to take him if your taking black library sources. otherwise it's ALL ONLY YOUR OPINION.

gendoikari87 wrote:

So it's like every area of military tech with the Imperium, generally better than what we have.

Nah, only the imperial air force. I think you forgot some of them are also capable of interstellar flight.

Um, yeah. I'd like to see what your oh so fantastic Earth forces could do against the other races of the universe.

You call killing marines with a single shot useless? And felling most of the more powerful troops in the universe with 1 or 2 shots? Plasmaguns are one of the most potent hand held weapons in the IOM, the only problem is their volatile nature.

thank you for making my point for me. All of that can be done with disposeable RPG's or better with longer range, and also being MUCH faster than a plasma blast.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Now you're doubling back on yourself and just making stuff up. But again, how do my sources contradict each other?

C.S. Goto? You have to take him if your taking black library sources. otherwise it's ALL ONLY YOUR OPINION.

No I don't. C.S Goto is a stupidly unreliable source. Although he'd only benefit me if I did. You've failed to answer the question three time now, I'm not using C.S Goto as a source, so how can my sources contradict each other? They remain consistent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

You call killing marines with a single shot useless? And felling most of the more powerful troops in the universe with 1 or 2 shots? Plasmaguns are one of the most potent hand held weapons in the IOM, the only problem is their volatile nature.

thank you for making my point for me. All of that can be done with disposeable RPG's or better with longer range, and also being MUCH faster than a plasma blast.

RPGs? Good one.

iproxtaco wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

So it's like every area of military tech with the Imperium, generally better than what we have.

Nah, only the imperial air force. I think you forgot some of them are also capable of interstellar flight.

Um, yeah. I'd like to see what your oh so fantastic Earth forces could do against the other races of the universe.

Tau, probably not a whole lot.

Eldar, Depends on if they are reasonable tacticians or utterly stupid, their tech is better though.

Orks. Psychic, hard comparison.

Tyrannids, no idea

Chaos, oh holy feth no.

Imperium ground to ground, we win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

No I don't. C.S Goto is a stupidly unreliable source. Although he'd only benefit me if I did. Although you've failed to answer the question, I'm not using C.S Goto as a source, so how can my sources contradict each other?

Still black library, any other distinction is up to opinion. Pull out some offical GW material.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

So it's like every area of military tech with the Imperium, generally better than what we have.

Nah, only the imperial air force. I think you forgot some of them are also capable of interstellar flight.

Um, yeah. I'd like to see what your oh so fantastic Earth forces could do against the other races of the universe.

Tau, probably not a whole lot.

Eldar, Depends on if they are reasonable tacticians or utterly stupid, their tech is better though.

Orks. Psychic, hard comparison.

Tyrannids, no idea

Chaos, oh holy feth no.

Imperium ground to ground, we win.

Yet the Imperium competes with all of those, and wins a good deal of the time, so your conclusion makes little sense.

No I don't. C.S Goto is a stupidly unreliable source. Although he'd only benefit me if I did. Although you've failed to answer the question, I'm not using C.S Goto as a source, so how can my sources contradict each other?

Still black library, any other distinction is up to opinion.

Doesn't matter, it's all official, and none of it is.

RPGs? Good one

they are, afterall the Gen II the imperium relies on, simply compresses a hollow cavity into a plasma, effectively being a directed plasma weapon, these however, are OLD news.

gendoikari87 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

So it's like every area of military tech with the Imperium, generally better than what we have.

Nah, only the imperial air force. I think you forgot some of them are also capable of interstellar flight.

Um, yeah. I'd like to see what your oh so fantastic Earth forces could do against the other races of the universe.

Tau, probably not a whole lot.

Eldar, Depends on if they are reasonable tacticians or utterly stupid, their tech is better though.

Orks. Psychic, hard comparison.

Tyrannids, no idea

Chaos, oh holy feth no.

Imperium ground to ground, we win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

No I don't. C.S Goto is a stupidly unreliable source. Although he'd only benefit me if I did. Although you've failed to answer the question, I'm not using C.S Goto as a source, so how can my sources contradict each other?

Still black library, any other distinction is up to opinion. Pull out some offical GW material.

We'd be crushed by all of them.
Imperium would beat us ground to ground, because by the time they get to the ground, we wont have much to fight them with due to orbital bombardments.
If all fails, Exterminatus.
There is really no way we can beat an interstellar race.

Imperium would beat us ground to ground, because by the time they get to the ground, we wont have much to fight them with due to orbital bombardments.

Only point in 3 pages that's made any sense.

Yet the Imperium competes with all of those, and wins a good deal of the time, so your conclusion makes little sense.

yeah what was the average life expectancy of the average guardsmen again? an hour?

Doesn't matter, it's all official, and none of it is.

Thank you Imperial armour IS offical and I win. Thank you. Goodbye.

1. Lasguns are cheaper to make, more reliable and have equivalent stats to an autogun, which is an assault rife.

2. What you said

gendoikari87 wrote:

Fluff comes from the rules, remember where the fluff comes from, the games.

Hence, since a heavy stubber is equal to a .50 cal. Has an ap6. Flak armor has a 5+ save. Rules to fluff, Flak armor can stop a .50 cal round. And the wears lives.

Carapace is even stronger, giving a 4+ save, which is enough to stop a bolter round.

Bolter round has an ap5. Which means it can penatrate further then a .50cal round.

So we have established that Imperial Guard armor is better than anything we have on earth.

3. All Chimeras are armed with a weapon that is stronger then a 50cal, but has same ap or better.

4. You haven't mention any anti-psyker defense. Our military will run screaming from their foxholes, trying to escape from the horrors in their head. Or get ripped to shreds by warp energy.

5. Oil. We need it for our vehicles. IoM can deny us this asset.

6. The IoM isnt stupid. They will try to annex a planet with a hospitable atmosphere. They are rare. Hence the ground invasion.

7. Earth doesnt rate space marines.

8. Where does it say an Imperial Guardsman life expectancy is an Hour?

9. Plasma is ap2. Meaning it can penetrate any bodyarmor with ease. An disposable RPG is already represented by Krak Gernades, AP4. Or the more expensive (not disposable) Krak Missile Ap3, which will be rarer due to it being more expensive

gendoikari87 wrote:

You call killing marines with a single shot useless? And felling most of the more powerful troops in the universe with 1 or 2 shots? Plasmaguns are one of the most potent hand held weapons in the IOM, the only problem is their volatile nature.

thank you for making my point for me. All of that can be done with disposeable RPG's or better with longer range, and also being MUCH faster than a plasma blast.

You are aware that plasma weapons are semi-automatic, have a good firing rate, good accuracy, and don't require reloading right? OK good, now let's see how your RPG compares...

Yeah, that's what I thought.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Imperium would beat us ground to ground, because by the time they get to the ground, we wont have much to fight them with due to orbital bombardments.

Only point in 3 pages that's made any sense.

Yeah I didn't think you were making any sense either.

Yet the Imperium competes with all of those, and wins a good deal of the time, so your conclusion makes little sense.

yeah what was the average life expectancy of the average guardsmen again? an hour?

Since they have veteran squads, pretty decent, obviously not really good. Still, if they have a fairly low life-expectancy, and are still able to compete and win against the Eldar and Chaos, they would crush us.

Doesn't matter, it's all official, and none of it is.

Thank you Imperial armour IS offical and I win. Thank you. Goodbye.

You missed my point completely. GW doesn't have an official or canon rating.