Just curious in these pictures the Emperor is huge. hes taller then a space marines and custodes in most depictions of him. Is his depiction in the art just an exxageration, because he is just a normal man, despite the fact hes immortal and one of the the greatest psyker in the galaxy.
Is that just his actuall height cuz back on ancient Terra when he was secretly guiding humanity and posing as major and influential figures, well 9-10 feet is very tall, not very discreat.
But yeah, the Emperor can tell your mind how tall he is...He could probably make you see him as buggs bunny if he wanted to because he's just that good of a psyker. I'd say true form is 8' something...Astartes are something like 7' something?
The paintings are obviously commissioned and reveiwed by the admistortium and would turn a very critical eye upon the portrayal of the Emperor of mankind and how he is depicted..and if you are that artist, would you want to tempt their dis-pleasure at showing the god-emperor as a normal sized person...with his servants towering over him..hmmmm.
Art Critics in the 41st millenium tend to give very harsh reveiws..ending with smoking bolter holes in craniums.
The emperor would never be portrayed as anything other than a towering figure, likely he was 5'6" tall and balding, like a little Napoleon..... does not make him any less powerful, in fact I would like that image, underestimate the little guy do ya?
In "The Last Church," though he makes himself appear unassuming to the priest in it, the priest notices how heavy his steps are and how the sturdy chairs creak under his weight, which should not be possible for his build.
The Emperor was the greatest psyker in history, it is not above reason that he could manipulate his size. Biomancers can actually do some altercations to their body, Biomancy being a school of psychic powers.
I'd assume he was as tall as the average Primarch maybe. So, a little above 3 meters, ten feet, just like Lion El'Jonson.
Or it's mostly the armor (I dont trust artwork 100% in these things, its not like someone could have been around to observe the battle between the Emperor and Horus after all.) - it isn't unheard of for power armor to be much larger than the person wearing it.
Alternately he might just use the same superscience magic he used creating the Primarchs and Space Marines ot augment himself. Considering he was a warrior-leader for a good part of the Unification and Great Crusade he'd likely want to give himself every physical advantage he could.
I really do not like the idea that the Emperor is some kind of three metres tall giant freak. I'd like to think him as tall, but still looking like a normal human. 195cm or so.
The reason why he is depicted taller than anyone else in the art, might be the same reason why 165cm tall Stalin was the tallest person in any painting he appeared in...
Soladrin wrote:Yep, he is probably around 9-10 feet. But he can mindrape anything into seeing whatever the hell he wants them to see.
So maybe he was "just" 6 feet then, given people's average height when he was supposedly born.
DUN-DUN-DUNNN
j/k - truth is we'll probably never know. And even if somebody would write about it or if you'd take those commissioned artist drawings as "true" there's still the interpretations thing.
In the end, the Emperor is as big or as small as you deem it fitting.
If the Emperor was nine feet tall, it's a good thing he never tripped over. The speed his head would build up on the way down would've broken his neck.
Crimson wrote:I really do not like the idea that the Emperor is some kind of three metres tall giant freak. I'd like to think him as tall, but still looking like a normal human. 195cm or so.
The reason why he is depicted taller than anyone else in the art, might be the same reason why 165cm tall Stalin was the tallest person in any painting he appeared in...
I don't know, that makes the Emperor interacting with his Primarchs, especially giants like Magnus, kind of comical, IMO.
The Emperor was not limited to appearing to be of different sizes and shapes. He could actually be different sizes and shapes, but not like some super hero shapeshifter, just ordinary human-looking forms. It's one of his very few actually known powers.
It always seemed to me that the Emperor was born a normal man, but with extraordinary powers - the most powerful single psychic being who ever lived, probably. Biomancy was definitely one of his fortes, seeing as he crafted the Primarchs and Space Marines. He would definitely have used his biomancy introspectively, to improve his own form. I think this could have ended up being recursive - the more powerful you make yourself, the better your biomancy, and so the more you can perfect your own being and increase your power again. The Emperor was humanity maxed out - the perfection of the human form. He could have been 10 feet tall and glowing with power, but made himself appear as a normal man, or vice versa - his power could have been concentrated in the frame of a normal human, projecting the form of a 10 foot tall god whenever necessary. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Now it's time to veer off into conspiracy theory, but I really like this interpretation:
Spoiler:
The Emperor was born a normal-looking man and blended in with humanity for thousands of years. He was an incredibly gifted biomancer, among other abilities. I think all that's pretty well established.
But what's up with Malcador? A man with psychic power second only to the Emperor, entrusted with the full authority to act on the Emperor's behalf, who typically would speak for the Emperor when both were in the same location? This guy, who would be remembered as the most powerful human ever if he weren't overshadowed by the Big E (he moved Titan to a different part of the freaking solar system!) just so happens to come along at just the right time to aide the Emperor in the Great Crusade?
I don't buy it. When a smart little guy is attached at the hip to a big glowing Frankenstein who never talks, it's usually clear which one is the puppet and which is the master.
Now I know this isn't really supported in the fluff, but it isn't totally disproven by anything either. I believe that Malcador was the Emperor's original, true form. "The Emperor" as we know him was a shell, a golem of sorts, a vehicle for Malcador's power. This extended form was created to provide a natural figurehead, a perfect, inspirational being, for the unification of Earth and the Great Crusade. It also gave an Alpharius/Omegon type advantage: Malcador could split his consciousness between his bodies as he saw fit. He could lead from two places at once in totally different ways, or have both bodies in the same location, one providing the approachable voice, the other backing it up with the imposing visage.
Even at the end, when Malcador holds down the fort on the Golden Throne while the Emperor battles Horus, I believe this theory isn't disproven. The Emperor/Malcador would leave behind just barely enough of himself in his human form to keep the webway gate closed, taking the lion's share of power in the fighting half of the duo to take out Horus. Upon his return, his mortal body was already nearly destroyed. He was forced to abandon the Malcador body and retreat to the Emperor body in order to keep powering the throne.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:It always seemed to me that the Emperor was born a normal man, but with extraordinary powers - the most powerful single psychic being who ever lived, probably. Biomancy was definitely one of his fortes, seeing as he crafted the Primarchs and Space Marines. He would definitely have used his biomancy introspectively, to improve his own form. I think this could have ended up being recursive - the more powerful you make yourself, the better your biomancy, and so the more you can perfect your own being and increase your power again. The Emperor was humanity maxed out - the perfection of the human form. He could have been 10 feet tall and glowing with power, but made himself appear as a normal man, or vice versa - his power could have been concentrated in the frame of a normal human, projecting the form of a 10 foot tall god whenever necessary. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Now it's time to veer off into conspiracy theory, but I really like this interpretation:
Spoiler:
The Emperor was born a normal-looking man and blended in with humanity for thousands of years. He was an incredibly gifted biomancer, among other abilities. I think all that's pretty well established.
But what's up with Malcador? A man with psychic power second only to the Emperor, entrusted with the full authority to act on the Emperor's behalf, who typically would speak for the Emperor when both were in the same location? This guy, who would be remembered as the most powerful human ever if he weren't overshadowed by the Big E (he moved Titan to a different part of the freaking solar system!) just so happens to come along at just the right time to aide the Emperor in the Great Crusade?
I don't buy it. When a smart little guy is attached at the hip to a big glowing Frankenstein who never talks, it's usually clear which one is the puppet and which is the master.
Now I know this isn't really supported in the fluff, but it isn't totally disproven by anything either. I believe that Malcador was the Emperor's original, true form. "The Emperor" as we know him was a shell, a golem of sorts, a vehicle for Malcador's power. This extended form was created to provide a natural figurehead, a perfect, inspirational being, for the unification of Earth and the Great Crusade. It also gave an Alpharius/Omegon type advantage: Malcador could split his consciousness between his bodies as he saw fit. He could lead from two places at once in totally different ways, or have both bodies in the same location, one providing the approachable voice, the other backing it up with the imposing visage.
Even at the end, when Malcador holds down the fort on the Golden Throne while the Emperor battles Horus, I believe this theory isn't disproven. The Emperor/Malcador would leave behind just barely enough of himself in his human form to keep the webway gate closed, taking the lion's share of power in the fighting half of the duo to take out Horus. Upon his return, his mortal body was already nearly destroyed. He was forced to abandon the Malcador body and retreat to the Emperor body in order to keep powering the throne.
I never liked this theory, though it is a good one dont get me wrong.
Master of Arms wrote:
I never liked this theory, though it is a good one dont get me wrong.
Yeah, I was violently opposed to it when I first saw it discussed, but the more I think about it, the more it grows on me. I mean, it really just makes sense. Yes the pieces fit in lots of other ways too, but this particular version of things rings truer somehow. Maybe because in reality, our myths and legends always seem to fall apart in the face of facts - even when something really happened, it never happened in the romanticized way we imagine it.
The real beauty of it is that it's so deliciously heretical, even we the readers/players seem to be offended by it on some level. It's the kind of theory that in-universe would earn you a bolt pistol round to the head, no questions asked - and whenever I see it brought up, it actually seems to provoke that level of fervor in some people in real life. It's really cool.
It's whatever he wants it to be. He can shapeshift.
Master of Arms wrote:I never liked this theory, though it is a good one dont get me wrong.
Not really, considering we frequently see them both at the same time and occasionally acting at cross purposes. And if anything, Magnus would have noticed.
I would guess 10-11 feet. My logic? He's atleast as tall as a primarch, who are as tall as termies, who are ~1m taller than unarmoured marines, who are 7-8 feet (though in my mind they're eight feet, I just included 7-8 because there are contradictory sources).
Jimsolo wrote:I love you Calgar. That's one sweet conspiracy theory! It also explains (to my mind) why Horus was able to do as well as he did against the Emperor.
Having the massed power of the four Chaos Gods inside him isn't a good enough reason for you?
I think the theory is very much implausible, as Omegus said, Magnus at the very least surely would of noticed this.
Theory gives GW too much credit. They might retcon it in somehow, if they really have a 'crack' squad of geeks combing forums to safe guard their interests though.
Either way, if Magnus noticed, so what? Why would he particularly care? The Emperor is still all powerful on a psyker level which is what Magnus really cares about, a cyclops ain't gonna be caring about a guy's physical appearance and would probably understand the utility
In order to be a theory, it has to be based on at least some evidence. At this point, it barely qualifies as a wacky idea.
Magnus (and even Ahriman) barely registered Malcador. That's unlikely to have been the case if Malcador was the real Emperor and the big glowy guy just a fancy prop. When Lorgar bitchslapped Malcador away from him, Malcador wouldn't have had to communicate Lorgar's disobedience to the Emperor. When John Grammaticus met the Emperor, Malcador didn't exist.
I can accept the possibility that Malcador may have been some fragment of the Emperor's great psyche, created so the Emperor could delegate more menial tasks (ya know, like running the Officio Assassinorium and Adeptus Administratum, and creating the Inquisition). It's unlikely, though not implausible, that he created Malcador so he could interact with his mortal subjects through a human face (mortals having a tendency to piss themselves from joy and dropping to their knees in supplication when in his presence).
It's still unfounded, and the face-value interpretation that Malcador was simply a powerful psyker who was a close and trusted associate of the Emperor makes just as much sense. I mean, why would the Emperor use the Malcador-shard to offer spiritual guidance to Dorn when the Primarchs saw Malcador as "a great man, but just a man"? More of his bad parenting style?
But regardless, despite not having any evidence to support it, I could conceive that of being the case. But the proposal that Malcador is the actual Emperor? That's just stupid and wrong.
the thing about theories like that is, as long as you stay strictly hypothetical, and you can invoke magic, you can explain away any apparent inconsistency. That's one plus about it. The downside is, just about any other competing theory can do the same thing, so there is functionally nothing that can "prove" one theory as superior to another.
If we stick to something simple such as Occam's Razor, its pretty unlikely that the theory about Malcador being the Emperor (or however it goes, I'm too lazy to check) is true. It's just as likely (and more easy to explain) that super Psyker Emperor has some super science or super magic that allows him to look bigger (or smaller) or he just changed over time.
I love the this Emperor Oz Theory. Nobody wants the lil guy to be in charge of their big shiny leader man. Haha, it is quite the little twist to be sure.
everythingi have read has it like this, normal person 5.5-6.0 ft tall, astartes about 2 ft taller 7.5 to 8.0 ft tall, custodes - about 2 ft taller - 9.5-10' and emp being 11.5-12
but he can project himself to be whatever he needs to be. the way a charismatic man can project confidence or sort of own a room, the emp is the same way, the power is just a little amped up
Always when I read discussions like these, I get the feeling like people have no grasp of what these numbers mean. 12 feet tall Emperor is just a ludicrous idea. Anyone taller than eight feet pretty much stops being able to interact with the normal human scale world.
Furthermore, I find this whole bigger=awesomer idea to be rather infantile. It works for orks, but I really see no reason to apply that pattern to the Imperium.
More I think of this, I prefer Emperor to be just a tallish normal man, six and half feet maybe. When imagine him fighting, I assume him to be more like a jedi knight rather than the Incredible Hulk.
The thing that really disproves this for me is the amount of times that GW use the whole 'He would have been the greatest X of the age, if not for Y, but he still served Y to the full extent of his abilities in X'. The prime example being Luther.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if the Emperor was twelve feet tall, how did an ork almost strangle him? Did it stand up straight or something?
Yeah, I am comfortable with the idea of the primarchs and the Emperor topping out around 8.5 ft, maybe 9 ft at the max. Anything past that would seem to indicate that the leaders of humanity couldn't even fit into 99% of the structures and vehicles they ruled over without crawling around on their hands and knees. The Emperor could certainly project himself to be any height he wished at any time though, so for all we know he really did look 12 feet tall in certain instances.
As for the Malcador-as-Emperor theory, yeah it's a wacky twist, has no real evidence, and incites a lot of strong reactions. It works just as well if Malcador was created by the Emperor to be his human face.
Either way it's just fun to think of, and hard to actually disprove considering how flexible any theory about the Emperor could be. In the presence of Magnus, or other powerful psykers, I have no doubt the Emperor could spoof Malcador to appear as a separate individual from the outside, and the link between them to be a normal telepathic conversation. Similarly, any debate occurring between Malcador and the Emperor might be for the benefit/manipulation of those around Him, say to squash a dissenting idea before it can gain any traction. The point isn't that the Emperor is a stage prop and Malcador is the real deal, it's that they're two vessels sharing one consciousness, which can split itself between them as needed.
I mean really, what's a body anyway to someone whose warp presence rivals the power of the Chaos Gods? When you're talking about a being of incalculable power, there are few limits to what is possible, story-wise. It's like debating over religion, there are few ways to really prove or disprove anything.
Edit for clarification: I'm not saying I believe this is true, and DEFINITELY not saying this is what Games Workshop intended. It's just a fun thought experiment, and I wanted to point out how tough it is to really prove or disprove anything about certain areas of fluff.
He is got to be as tall as a primarch or taller, considering that he was forced to fight some of them in order to convince them to join him. They would have wtfpwned him if he only was a 6ft tall midget
Johnnyboy955 wrote:everythingi have read has it like this, normal person 5.5-6.0 ft tall, astartes about 2 ft taller 7.5 to 8.0 ft tall, custodes - about 2 ft taller - 9.5-10' and emp being 11.5-12
but he can project himself to be whatever he needs to be. the way a charismatic man can project confidence or sort of own a room, the emp is the same way, the power is just a little amped up
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:He is got to be as tall as a primarch or taller, considering that he was forced to fight some of them in order to convince them to join him. They would have wtfpwned him if he only was a 6ft tall midget
As amazing as it may seem, a person's martial prowess is not based solely on his height...
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:He is got to be as tall as a primarch or taller, considering that he was forced to fight some of them in order to convince them to join him. They would have wtfpwned him if he only was a 6ft tall midget
As amazing as it may seem, a person's martial proves is not based solely on his height...
No, but usually it means more strength also. And the Primarchs were two times as large as a normal man (plus more powerful, faster and more cunning than a normal human). I think the Emperor would have had hard time beating them with those traits.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
No, but usually it means more strength also. And the Primarchs were two times as large as a normal man (plus more powerful, faster and more cunning than a normal human). I think the Emperor would have had hard time beating them with those traits.
I think thousands of years of battle experience and being the most powerful psyker who ever lived might help a little bit though.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:He is got to be as tall as a primarch or taller, considering that he was forced to fight some of them in order to convince them to join him. They would have wtfpwned him if he only was a 6ft tall midget
The Emperor never once fought purely physically. He was, in fact, incapable of such a thing based on his unique nature.
Also, as has been pointed out many times in this very thread, the Emperor could alter his own physical properties.
Well with absolute zero psychic power the Emperor would likely just be a wise man. If it is passive psychic enhancement that just sorta happens, like his height and strength, then I don't think it would count as using psychic power.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:He is got to be as tall as a primarch or taller, considering that he was forced to fight some of them in order to convince them to join him. They would have wtfpwned him if he only was a 6ft tall midget
As amazing as it may seem, a person's martial proves is not based solely on his height...
No, but usually it means more strength also. And the Primarchs were two times as large as a normal man (plus more powerful, faster and more cunning than a normal human). I think the Emperor would have had hard time beating them with those traits.
More than twice as large. They were about twice as tall, but you have to take into account their other dimensions would be proportionate, and maybe even greater, plus the square/cube law comes into effect...they'd be several times larger.
im2randomghgh wrote:
More than twice as large. They were about twice as tall, but you have to take into account their other dimensions would be proportionate, and maybe even greater, plus the square/cube law comes into effect...they'd be several times larger.
Yeeah... I do not buy that either. I think Primarchs were just slightly taller than a normal Space Marine (Magnus being the exception), so they were from 7'6" to 8' tall. 6'6" Emperor could have sparred with them just fine.
I think Emperor being a giant makes him less awesome, not more. It is much more impressive if a normal looking man knocks the mighty Russ out.
im2randomghgh wrote:
More than twice as large. They were about twice as tall, but you have to take into account their other dimensions would be proportionate, and maybe even greater, plus the square/cube law comes into effect...they'd be several times larger.
Yeeah... I do not buy that either. I think Primarchs were just slightly taller than a normal Space Marine (Magnus being the exception), so they were from 7'6" to 8' tall. 6'6" Emperor could have sparred with them just fine.
I think Emperor being a giant makes him less awesome, not more. It is much more impressive if a normal looking man knocks the mighty Russ out.
No, because Mortarion was stated as being as tall as a terminator while in bare feet, and TDA adds 1m to height IIRC. 3ft + 7-8ft=10-11 feet. There were enormous. And the Emperor was as tall as them because they were imperfect clones of him.
im2randomghgh wrote:
No, because Mortarion was stated as being as tall as a terminator while in bare feet, and TDA adds 1m to height IIRC. 3ft + 7-8ft=10-11 feet. There were enormous. And the Emperor was as tall as them because they were imperfect clones of him.
First of, there is no fething* way a terminator armour adds a metre of height. Stuff that adds height is the soles of the boots and that thing above the head, nothing else. That is a foot of height at most.
And even though Emperor made them, Primarchs are not clones of him. They are completely new beings. There is no reason that he has to be as tall as them.
(Furthermore, I'd take any Black Library sources with a huge dose of salt. Space Marine height inflation is rampant in that stuff.)
*(EDIT: Ok, what the hell is this? Is there a way to turn this profanity filter off?)
Durza wrote:The thing that really disproves this for me is the amount of times that GW use the whole 'He would have been the greatest X of the age, if not for Y, but he still served Y to the full extent of his abilities in X'. The prime example being Luther.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if the Emperor was twelve feet tall, how did an ork almost strangle him? Did it stand up straight or something?
Considering that Ghazghkull, a small Ork by comparison, is around 20 feet or 6 meters tall, I wouldn't call that impossible at all...
im2randomghgh wrote:
No, because Mortarion was stated as being as tall as a terminator while in bare feet, and TDA adds 1m to height IIRC. 3ft + 7-8ft=10-11 feet. There were enormous. And the Emperor was as tall as them because they were imperfect clones of him.
First of, there is no fething* way a terminator armour adds a metre of height. Stuff that adds height is the soles of the boots and that thing above the head, nothing else. That is a foot of height at most.
And even though Emperor made them, Primarchs are not clones of him. They are completely new beings. There is no reason that he has to be as tall as them.
(Furthermore, I'd take any Black Library sources with a huge dose of salt. Space Marine height inflation is rampant in that stuff.)
*(EDIT: Ok, what the hell is this? Is there a way to turn this profanity filter off?)
Well You're thinking of terminator armour as armour in a very literal sense. Think of it more like Ironmonger from Iron man. DAT GUY'S HUGE!
Those suits are MASSIVE! There is a reason it is called tactical dreadnought armour. Rather than being heavy power armour, it is almost a light dreadnought.
I'd stake an "average" SM at around 7'6"-8', with exceptionally large marines (Pasanius, B'aken) being a few inches over eight feet.
I'd stake a Primarch at about 2' taller than a marine. this would mean a primarch of "average" height would be about 9'6". ex: in the HH series, Loken was described as coming up to Horus' chest.
And as for marine height exaggeration, Personally a marine is 7'6"-8" to me, but I am fine even with the description of 8'6" even in some books (i.e. night lords) it is not until the truly ridiculous one where I get annoyed, like in one of the short storied from Legends of the Space Marine where a Dark Hunter was 9' without PA.
Though I guess this could in theory be explained away by the fact that all the chapters have different home worlds, with different gravity strengths, as did the primarchs. I guess we should use the IF as a reference then since Terra maintains one of their bigger recruitment chapels.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Well You're thinking of terminator armour as armour in a very literal sense. Think of it more like Ironmonger from Iron man. DAT GUY'S HUGE!
Those suits are MASSIVE! There is a reason it is called tactical dreadnought armour. Rather than being heavy power armour, it is almost a light dreadnought.
That's just silly. I'd like to you to attempt to draw a schematic of a marine inside such an armour. Unless the marine simply sits completely in the torso like a tiny pilot, it is impossible.
I'd stake an "average" SM at around 7'6"-8', with exceptionally large marines (Pasanius, B'aken) being a few inches over eight feet.
Jes Goodwin says 7' to 7'6'. Good enough for me.
I'd stake a Primarch at about 2' taller than a marine. this would mean a primarch of "average" height would be about 9'6". ex: in the HH series, Loken was described as coming up to Horus' chest.
Almost three metres tall primarchs just seem goofy to me. It is hard to imagine them living in normal human societies as they did, if they were that huge.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Well You're thinking of terminator armour as armour in a very literal sense. Think of it more like Ironmonger from Iron man. DAT GUY'S HUGE!
Those suits are MASSIVE! There is a reason it is called tactical dreadnought armour. Rather than being heavy power armour, it is almost a light dreadnought.
That's just silly. I'd like to you to attempt to draw a schematic of a marine inside such an armour. Unless the marine simply sits completely in the torso like a tiny pilot, it is impossible.
I'd stake an "average" SM at around 7'6"-8', with exceptionally large marines (Pasanius, B'aken) being a few inches over eight feet.
Jes Goodwin says 7' to 7'6'. Good enough for me.
I'd stake a Primarch at about 2' taller than a marine. this would mean a primarch of "average" height would be about 9'6". ex: in the HH series, Loken was described as coming up to Horus' chest.
Almost three metres tall primarchs just seem goofy to me. It is hard to imagine them living in normal human societies as they did, if they were that huge.
1. Again, think IRONMONGER
2. The sources differ too much. If you take a single, individual source (like you just did) then I could take any other, individual source. Like that silly short story where they're 9'.
8' is just an all too common description of them. Unless every single source that ever said they were 8' were retconned, but then BL wouldn't exist.
3. You are aware that Fulgrim killed an avatar by caving it's skull in with his fist right? It wasn't described as having any kind of size advantage over him. And they are at LEAST 10' tall, probably more, as Thirianna described it is more than twice her height.
2. The sources differ too much. If you take a single, individual source (like you just did) then I could take any other, individual source. Like that silly short story where they're 9'.
8' is just an all too common description of them. Unless every single source that ever said they were 8' were retconned, but then BL wouldn't exist.
3. You are aware that Fulgrim killed an avatar by caving it's skull in with his fist right? It wasn't described as having any kind of size advantage over him. And they are at LEAST 10' tall, probably more, as Thirianna described it is more than twice her height.
1. I DO! And I have no idea how a person is supposed to fit in that either. Where are his real legs, where are his real arms? It is too small that a complete person could fit in the chest alone, and too big that limbs could be in the armour's limbs in a manner that would allow the joints to be even in remotely right places.
2. You are right that it is matter of preference. The canon is not consistent. I just think that BL authors are prone to silly exaggeration, so I rather trust Goodwin. BTW Deathwatch RPG gives unarmoured Space Marine height of slightly over 2,1 metres (so under seven feet.) That is again one divergent datapoint.
3. And Alpharius can be mistaken for a normal space marine. Fluff is inconsistent.
In the end, I am not trying to prove anyone wrong. This is fiction, nothing of this is real. I just try to illustrate why I personally prefer more conservative height numbers.
They wouldnt have to worry about normal doors, cause they didnt spend all that much time in normal society. The only time they would spend in regular human sized domains they would probably be on a mission of some sort, and in that case they could just shoot the door out. Collateral damage, boo hoo.
Lion El'Jonson was explicitly stated to be slightly taller than three meters, which is ten feet tall. This is while wearing power armour that isn't really power armour, and he was noted to tower over the fully armoured Marines who landed on Caliban.
Lion El'Jonson isn't even a particularly large Primarch. Ferrus Manus, Leman Russ, and especially Magnus the Red, were all larger than he was.
I do believe Marines are slightly over 2.1 meters, or seven feet tall, as Deathwatch states. But Primarchs making Marines look puny in comparison is pretty much fact, and Alpharius is very much the exception, not the rule. He was the shortest Primarch, to the extent that some Marines could masquerade as him.
The Emperor was directly stated in "The Last Church" to be superhumanly tall and large. I don't know why people think the Emperor would be the size of a normal human, literally no evidence points to this being the case. While it is true that the Emperor could alter his size (Or at least the perception of his size), his "default" form was never described as anything but "Very big."
Where the concept of canon is absent, there is no "right" or "wrong". Only differing interpretations. The Emperor is as big or small as you like.
I for myself find the idea of Primarchs or the Emperor being unable to ride in a Rhino or an Aquila Lander to be silly, hence I'll not subscribe to this supposed "who has the longest" (body) contest amongst Astartes and Big E.
Lynata wrote:Where the concept of canon is absent, there is no "right" or "wrong". Only differing interpretations. The Emperor is as big or small as you like.
I for myself find the idea of Primarchs or the Emperor being unable to ride in a Rhino or an Aquila Lander to be silly, hence I'll not subscribe to this supposed "who has the longest" (body) contest amongst Astartes and Big E.
(Where is that even from? BL going wild again?)
But that interpretation has to my knowledge absolutely no fluff at all backing it. Which is basically what I'm saying. An interpretation can only be valid if there is fluff to back it up, and all fluff concerning the matter dictates the Primarchs and the Emperor being gigantic.
And Primarchs don't ride in normal transports, their transport is usually custom-made for them, like Fulgrim's Stormbird he made himself. And frankly, why would a Primarch need a transport?
There is no fluff at all concerning a Primarch being anything but "bigger than a Marine," and why should the only actual statement on a Primarch's height be thrown out?
It's from Descent of Angels. It is also the only statement on Primarch height I can recall, in terms of actually giving it a number. Though every other source also makes it clear that Primarchs are bigger than Marines.
Though this is all really irrelevant to the discussion at hand, as like DarknessEternal has been saying, the Emperor, though his default form was large, could alter his size easily.
Void__Dragon wrote:An interpretation can only be valid if there is fluff to back it up
All an interpretation needs is the opinion of its holder, though it is certainly shaped at least to a large part by what he or she has read/seen before. Still, perhaps this could be compared to the people who make up their own Marine Chapters - they don't exist in the fluff, but they're certainly part of their players' interpretation of the setting.
Fluff gets made up all the time, quite often in contradiction to other fluff - and with how I now understand the setting, there is just no difference between you as a reader or the author who wrote book X. It's all equally valid. All that matters is that you pick something you like.
"To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
- Gav Thorpe
Void__Dragon wrote:Though this is all really irrelevant to the discussion at hand, as like DarknessEternal has been saying, the Emperor, though his default form was large, could alter his size easily.
I'm just saying that a consensus cannot be achieved, and another three pages of supposed facts won't change that. Actually, I think it's even better that way. It gives a false sense of a canon that doesn't exist.
Lynata wrote:All an interpretation needs is the opinion of its holder, though it is certainly shaped at least to a large part by what he or she has read/seen before. Still, perhaps this could be compared to the people who make up their own Marine Chapters - they don't exist in the fluff, but they're certainly part of their players' interpretation of the setting.
Fluff gets made up all the time, quite often in contradiction to other fluff - and with how I now understand the setting, there is just no difference between you as a reader or the author who wrote book X. It's all equally valid. All that matters is that you pick something you like.
"To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
- Gav Thorpe
Then Mr. Thorpe and I obviously disagree, and according to him my opinion is no less valid than his.
I'm just saying that a consensus cannot be achieved, and another three pages of supposed facts won't change that. Actually, I think it's even better that way. It gives a false sense of a canon that doesn't exist.
Perhaps not.
Personally, I prefer my Primarchs larger than Marines, with my Marines at on average a little above seven feet in power armour.
Crimson wrote:First of, there is no fething* way a terminator armour adds a metre of height. Stuff that adds height is the soles of the boots and that thing above the head, nothing else. That is a foot of height at most.
Terminator armor is more than just a heavier suit of armor. They are more of a completely enclosed exo-suit where their hands end somewhere in the forearm region, and the feet somewhere around the calf.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Personally, I prefer my Primarchs larger than Marines, with my Marines at on average a little above seven feet in power armour.
I think pretty much everyone agrees that Primarchs were bigger than normal marines. The disagreement is about how much bigger. I personally find the idea of three metres tall primarchs goofy. And frankly, I just do not trust any numbers from Black Library books. Some novels have had normal marines to be nine feet tall, and that is obviously totally off.
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Omegus wrote:
Terminator armor is more than just a heavier suit of armor. They are more of a completely enclosed exo-suit where their hands end somewhere in the forearm region, and the feet somewhere around the calf.
So terminator's feet are not actually in his boots? Those are some kind of robot feet? This idea seems being completely fabricated out of thin air.
ShatteredBlade wrote:I always imagined him 9 to 10 feet, but find it would awesome if he was actually danny devito sized.
There thats better now
I think it is stated that the order is as follows: (shorter to taller)
Human
Marine
Primarch
(?)Emperor
How much taller? I think its a personal preference thing. For me being superhuman does not mean a Godzilla type of man.
IMO the height was something like that:
Human
Marine/Emperor
Primarch
Yeah accuse me of heresy
But the fact is that my zujitsu teacher(hopefully this translates correctly ) is still 1 head shorter than me (I am 1.83m, 6.04 ft) and he still tosses me around like a rugged doll (ouch! )
So martial proweness has nothing to do with height >
I think the Emperor made himself look bigger for the effect though, rather than any real advantage it would give. If the primarchs had been looking down when talking to him, it would've detracted from the shock and awe factor a bit.
Durza wrote:I think the Emperor made himself look bigger for the effect though, rather than any real advantage it would give. If the primarchs had been looking down when talking to him, it would've detracted from the shock and awe factor a bit.
This is a really valid point and I agree on that, at least as far as the common crowd is concerned. But apparently Primarchs had really strong psychic defenses so the effect would be lost on them anyway(or at least this is what I think ). On the other hand they would remeber that the "little" handed their arse to them so they would stay silent
Crimson wrote:First of, there is no fething* way a terminator armour adds a metre of height. Stuff that adds height is the soles of the boots and that thing above the head, nothing else. That is a foot of height at most.
Terminator armor is more than just a heavier suit of armor. They are more of a completely enclosed exo-suit where their hands end somewhere in the forearm region, and the feet somewhere around the calf.
This is just extremely wrong. No model or illustration has ever been done that would show a roughly normally proportioned space marine fitting in this armor in any way other than hands-in-gauntlets and feet-in-boots. No fluff has ever described this either. The only time the hand would end up somewhere in the "forearm" is when wearing a power fist, but that's to be expected.
In fact, check out this illustration:
That's what a marine looks like inside terminator armor. It's a giant exoskeleton that has to pretty much be built around him to put it on, but it doesn't make him any taller or his limbs longer. Anywhere that states terminator armor adds anything more than a foot or so of height is just wrong. It's wrong based on models, wrong based on illustrations, and wrong based on logic.
That's just one illustration, there are plenty of others where the proportions simply don't make any sense unless Terminator armor is an exo-suit like that massive prototype armor in the first Ironman movie. In the novels, Space Marines in terminator armor are also frequently described as "towering" over their brethren.
Most decriptions I've read have a human coming up to about the chin of a marine, which would make a marine about 7' -7'6" to my mind. Marines are described as coming to about the same area on a primarch maybe a bit lower, so I would put a Primarch at about 8'6" to 9' with the taller primarchs at around 9'6". As for the Emperor, I reckon he was born normal sized, but biomanced himself up to around primarch height/+, although he could probably appear however he wanted (e.g. super xenos psyker kitten! Put the chainswords away, I was kidding! )
Omegus wrote:That's just one illustration, there are plenty of others where the proportions simply don't make any sense unless Terminator armor is an exo-suit like that massive prototype armor in the first Ironman movie. In the novels, Space Marines in terminator armor are also frequently described as "towering" over their brethren.
Or maybe terminators are 25 metres tall, the three metres tall space marine pilot completely enclosed in the helmet!
Omegus wrote:That's just one illustration, there are plenty of others where the proportions simply don't make any sense unless Terminator armor is an exo-suit like that massive prototype armor in the first Ironman movie. In the novels, Space Marines in terminator armor are also frequently described as "towering" over their brethren.
Even then, that's just bad illustration or writing. Unless the marine fits entirely within the torso, or is outside the armor (see the "Baby Carrier"), when they move their arm, the arm of the suit will not be able to move in a corresponding way, and vice-versa. The joints will not line up. Even lining up the wrong joints doesn't work. If the elbow ends up in the shoulder joint, the shoulder is limited to the elbow's range of movement, and the marine inside can't move his shoulder. So the armor's upper arm is now the marine's lower arm, and the armor's lower arm is now... what? It doesn't work.
I understand the vast majority of 40k fluff and novels aren't hard sci-fi. But if we're going to discuss 40k as if it is hard sci-fi, we should at least try to keep basic things straight, like the physical possibility of moving inside the suit of armor.
When I hear descriptions that say terminator armor towers over power armor I often think not only is it slightly taller ( a foot or so) but also much bulkier which adds to the perception that it is much larger. Plus, think about what it is like hanging out with someone a foot taller than you. I have had a couple friends that top out around six foot five. One was fairly thin and the other was heavy set. I don't often notice how much taller my thinner friend is than me ( 5'7), but my heavier friend always seems to loom over everyone. Bulk defintly enhances perception of height.
It's crazy how enormous a 2-2.5 foot difference really is. Now just make him twice or three times as wide and bulky, and you have yourself a large Astartes specimen.
That dude's ~8'3".........Frickin huge. Imagine him bulked the hell out and without all the awkward lankiness. Space Marines would be intimidating as heck (Though most wouldn't be THAT tall). Maybe he's Alpharius height.
This guy was 8'11" so...Primarch scale about? Filled out with appropriate muscle mass and awesomeness.
Crimson wrote:I think pretty much everyone agrees that Primarchs were bigger than normal marines. The disagreement is about how much bigger. I personally find the idea of three metres tall primarchs goofy. And frankly, I just do not trust any numbers from Black Library books. Some novels have had normal marines to be nine feet tall, and that is obviously totally off.
The difference is that we have other statements that tell you the height of a Marine that allow use to confidently say "That seems like bs."
Three meter tall Primarchs is the only number I can recall for the height of a Primarch. What is there to contradict it?
Master of Arms wrote: Is his depiction in the art just an exxageration, because he is just a normal man, despite the fact hes immortal and one of the the greatest psyker in the galaxy.
Here's the part that I don't understand (and right there in the first post, no less!). Where are you getting that he's 'just a normal man', despite being immortal and psychic? While BL fluff isn't forced to be consistent, it's been repeatedly written that:
He has appeared as many different personages throughout history. Presumably people would have noticed if Caesar looked like Churchill (pick your own examples).
He was surrounded by a glowing golden light that obscured or completely hid his true visage at times.
So, you have a glowing, golden being who could appear to be different people of different nationalities (and different ages). How is this 'normal' in appearance? How is it anything BUT someone who can appear to others as he chooses, making questions like "how tall is the Emperor?" relatively meaningless without adding "in this particular instance?"
It's like asking what James Bond looks like. Unless you specify further, you're not gonna get much more than "human male, standard number of limbs".
Void__Dragon wrote:
The difference is that we have other statements that tell you the height of a Marine that allow use to confidently say "That seems like bs."
Three meter tall Primarchs is the only number I can recall for the height of a Primarch. What is there to contradict it?
It is not like heights of Primarchs and Space Marines are completely unrelated matters. If they got Space Marine height 25% wrong, then it is perfectly plausible to assume that they got Primarch height wrong in similar degree. A ten feet tall Primarch is ludicrous, but makes more sense if they ended up there by first assuming that marines were nine feet tall.
Omegus wrote:In order to be a theory, it has to be based on at least some evidence. At this point, it barely qualifies as a wacky idea.
Magnus (and even Ahriman) barely registered Malcador. That's unlikely to have been the case if Malcador was the real Emperor and the big glowy guy just a fancy prop. When Lorgar bitchslapped Malcador away from him, Malcador wouldn't have had to communicate Lorgar's disobedience to the Emperor. When John Grammaticus met the Emperor, Malcador didn't exist.
I can accept the possibility that Malcador may have been some fragment of the Emperor's great psyche, created so the Emperor could delegate more menial tasks (ya know, like running the Officio Assassinorium and Adeptus Administratum, and creating the Inquisition). It's unlikely, though not implausible, that he created Malcador so he could interact with his mortal subjects through a human face (mortals having a tendency to piss themselves from joy and dropping to their knees in supplication when in his presence).
It's still unfounded, and the face-value interpretation that Malcador was simply a powerful psyker who was a close and trusted associate of the Emperor makes just as much sense. I mean, why would the Emperor use the Malcador-shard to offer spiritual guidance to Dorn when the Primarchs saw Malcador as "a great man, but just a man"? More of his bad parenting style?
But regardless, despite not having any evidence to support it, I could conceive that of being the case. But the proposal that Malcador is the actual Emperor? That's just stupid and wrong.
Agree, sorry havent been on to comment on my own post for a while, been really busy lately.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Castiel wrote:(e.g. super xenos psyker kitten! Put the chainswords away, I was kidding! )
Heights of Space Marines (or even primarchs) is not fixed, any more than the heights of normal humans is fixed. Especially when you have to factor in the extreme genetic engineering that goes on. Creating any sort of super tall, super bulky entity requires some pretty exceptionally fancy genetic engineering, because in real life the extremely tall/gigantic people tend to have some pretty hefty biological problems (because they're carrying around alot more bulk than the body is designed to handle - it puts a strain on their body. Andre the Giant is, IIRC, the best example of this.)
Crimson wrote:It is not like heights of Primarchs and Space Marines are completely unrelated matters. If they got Space Marine height 25% wrong, then it is perfectly plausible to assume that they got Primarch height wrong in similar degree. A ten feet tall Primarch is ludicrous, but makes more sense if they ended up there by first assuming that marines were nine feet tall.
You say it's ludicrous, only... We don't know of any other source for the height of a Primarch. Only that they are bigger than Marines.
And frankly, why would a ten foot tall Primarch not be able to board a transport? Ogryns do all the time, and are similarly large.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Heights of Space Marines (or even primarchs) is not fixed, any more than the heights of normal humans is fixed. Especially when you have to factor in the extreme genetic engineering that goes on. Creating any sort of super tall, super bulky entity requires some pretty exceptionally fancy genetic engineering, because in real life the extremely tall/gigantic people tend to have some pretty hefty biological problems (because they're carrying around alot more bulk than the body is designed to handle - it puts a strain on their body. Andre the Giant is, IIRC, the best example of this.)
Yeah most humans over 7' tend to die before 30. Manute Bol was an exception because his HUGE height wasn't due to a tumor or other discrepancy, it was actually natural. He only made it to 47 though...
Robert Wadlow, the tallest man ever, (8'11") only made it to 22.
However, Space Marines have some serious fancy genetic engineering. The second heart and third lung really help them support their much larger body size. Reinforced bones also help them move without breaking.
When I was a kid, I remember always being freaked out watching Bol play. I kept expecting those ridiculous legs to snap out from under him. He was also pretty terrible at basketball, but regardless, someone his size but five times the girth would be a freaky, scary thing. They'd make this guy look itty-bitty by comparison.
Space Marines really don't need to be 9' or whatever ridiculous heights they reach in some BL novels to be intimidating.
a bit bigger than a primarch, space marines being 8ft, primarchs 10ft, emperor would be around 11ft. I don't like thinking of primarchs/space marines being small or around the same height. They are HUGE. they need to be to fight their enemies
2. The sources differ too much. If you take a single, individual source (like you just did) then I could take any other, individual source. Like that silly short story where they're 9'.
8' is just an all too common description of them. Unless every single source that ever said they were 8' were retconned, but then BL wouldn't exist.
3. You are aware that Fulgrim killed an avatar by caving it's skull in with his fist right? It wasn't described as having any kind of size advantage over him. And they are at LEAST 10' tall, probably more, as Thirianna described it is more than twice her height.
1. I DO! And I have no idea how a person is supposed to fit in that either. Where are his real legs, where are his real arms? It is too small that a complete person could fit in the chest alone, and too big that limbs could be in the armour's limbs in a manner that would allow the joints to be even in remotely right places.
2. You are right that it is matter of preference. The canon is not consistent. I just think that BL authors are prone to silly exaggeration, so I rather trust Goodwin. BTW Deathwatch RPG gives unarmoured Space Marine height of slightly over 2,1 metres (so under seven feet.) That is again one divergent datapoint.
3. And Alpharius can be mistaken for a normal space marine. Fluff is inconsistent.
In the end, I am not trying to prove anyone wrong. This is fiction, nothing of this is real. I just try to illustrate why I personally prefer more conservative height numbers.
At least we can agree to disagree. Marines are 8' for me, primarchs are 10'+. I especially like these numbers because that would put marines at roughly half way in between the height of a primarch and a human.
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BrainDeleted wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Heights of Space Marines (or even primarchs) is not fixed, any more than the heights of normal humans is fixed. Especially when you have to factor in the extreme genetic engineering that goes on. Creating any sort of super tall, super bulky entity requires some pretty exceptionally fancy genetic engineering, because in real life the extremely tall/gigantic people tend to have some pretty hefty biological problems (because they're carrying around alot more bulk than the body is designed to handle - it puts a strain on their body. Andre the Giant is, IIRC, the best example of this.)
Yeah most humans over 7' tend to die before 30. Manute Bol was an exception because his HUGE height wasn't due to a tumor or other discrepancy, it was actually natural. He only made it to 47 though...
Robert Wadlow, the tallest man ever, (8'11") only made it to 22.
However, Space Marines have some serious fancy genetic engineering. The second heart and third lung really help them support their much larger body size. Reinforced bones also help them move without breaking.
Plus, despite being huge, they are also disproportionately strong.
heresy 
) is still 1 head shorter than me (I am 1.83m, 6.04 
)
Put the chainswords away, I was kidding! 
