What are some things(especially small things) that could of been done to prevent the Horus Heresy?

The Emperor telling the Primarchs about the Warp and its dangers.

The Emperor not telling Lorgar off is a pretty big one.

Coolyo294 wrote:The Emperor telling the Primarchs about the Warp and its dangers.

Sorta this.

Basically, the Emperor not being so secretive with his Primarchs.

Not being a total dick to some of them would probably help too.

Not leaving the Primarchs to play unsupervised would seem like the big one.

Telling them about the Warp wouldn't necessarily have helped. Might even have simply sped things along. 'Knowledge begets Heresy' after all...

The Emperor showing more understanding with the Primachs, telling the Primarchs what he was doing on Terra, and not creating the Senatorum Imperialis to rule over humanity, the Primarchs felt that right belonged to the Space Marines.

The Emperor should have read a couple guides to fatherhood. That may have helped.

Here's an easy one: Loken actually acting on his suspicion of Erebus, or at least friggin telling somebody about it.

Loken is a great character and I realize they couldn't have Loken prevent the heresy in the heresy novels. However it still annoyed me to no end when Loken noticed something wrong and decided to keep it to himself, determined to look into it more "later".

Kill Erebus and Kor Phareon, and probably kill Lorgar. Probably should purge the entire word bearers legion.

Really they were the key weak point in the entire plot. They wanted gods, the Emperor refused to give them a god, so they went looking elsewhere for gods. The Chaos Gods then used that as a wedge to bring down the Imperium.

I'm not saying that there wouldn't have bene other problems either (Magnus and the thousand sons are not a trivial problem in that regard, nor is the Cult of the Emperor, or the various daemonic forces they ended up exposed to) but failing to turn Horus would hamper them greatly.

Ther'es a host of other minor things that could have been changed to fix things: handling the growth of the bureacracy and administrato to handle the Imperium is one, Being more open with his inner circle (ESPECIALLY the Primarchs - one key factor in the fall was their sense of isolation and abandonment after the Emperor returned to TErra, and the Emperor was not trusting enough/too fearful to be honest.) Mor ehonesty about the nature or threat of Chaos would also have worked - don't call them gods or daemons, just call thema kind of Xenos creature like Enslavers who play at being gods. More flexibility on the use of psychic powers and in religion probably wouldn't have hurt either.

The Eldar could have just killed the human race when they were still nothing but comical tree beasts way back in the day and the Emperor would never have been born, the primarchs would have never been created, and Horus would have never rebelled against the big E...

That's one way it could have been prevented

I don't think it could've been prevented, since Chaos always finds a way. However, the damage it did to the Imperium could've been limited.

The emperor not overreacting and blowing Lorgar's city to oblivion....

Like some people have already said, communication would have stopped the Horus Heresey. Mainly, the emperor should have stayed with his armies and not left children with dangerous toys and the such.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:The Emperor telling the Primarchs about the Warp and its dangers.

Sorta this.

Basically, the Emperor not being so secretive with his Primarchs.

Not being a total dick to some of them would probably help too.

This. I mean think of how he dealt with Angron the first time they met. How hard would it have been to save his damn gladiator buddies from being slaughtered then he would have been loyal to the end. Same for giving Petrubo some actual credit for the sacrifices his legion made throughout the crusade and letting Horus know what his plan is when he left him in charge. For someone who spent thousands of years planning for his big moment he makes some obvious social blunders.

It never could have...tis all in the emperor's grand plan, you don't think that one of the most powerful warp presences other than the big 4 wouldn't notice one of his sons talking to possibly the most deadly of the chaos gods? We will never know what was said when the emperor boarded Horus' barge, but hey, the emperor can see the future and has been alive for some 48 000 years, and only decided to make his presence known in the 30th millennium I believe it would be impossible, it would of happened one way or another...

The emperor conceding that his "children" could be flawed.

Because his belief that they were not, and his stubbornly blind refusal to even consider the idea, meant the fall, when it did happen was just going to be so much worse.

Oh, he could have read "Paradise Lost" by Milton, too.
He is a mythical figure that is a combination of King Arthur, Jesus and Chuck Velociraptor, who was born a couple of thousand years ago (from our reckoning) - you'd have thought he might have at least picked up and read it.

Then he would have seen it coming. I did, and it blind freddy could have seen that one coming.

Deathsadvocate wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:The Emperor telling the Primarchs about the Warp and its dangers.

Sorta this.

Basically, the Emperor not being so secretive with his Primarchs.

Not being a total dick to some of them would probably help too.

This. I mean think of how he dealt with Angron the first time they met. How hard would it have been to save his damn gladiator buddies from being slaughtered then he would have been loyal to the end. Same for giving Petrubo some actual credit for the sacrifices his legion made throughout the crusade and letting Horus know what his plan is when he left him in charge. For someone who spent thousands of years planning for his big moment he makes some obvious social blunders.

I concur. With each Primarch bar maybe Fulgrim and Mortarion, he royally fethed them over.

1. Telling the Primarchs about the Warp and it's dangers.

2. Keeping a better eye on them.

3. Founding the Inquisition and giving them grater authority then he give to his Primarchs.

4. Start preaching to all Human worlds about science and philosophy and tell the Adeptus Mechanicus to stat inventing something for real and not just using STC to copy/paste it.

Teleporting himself down to Angron, instead of teleporting Angron up to him.

Going a different direction at Nikea and soulbinding the Sons, (totally stolen from Dornian Heresy alt-history)

Recognizing Kor Phareon as Chaos worshiping scum at some point would have helped.

Noticing that Caliban had a freaking daemon inside it wouldn't have hurt.

Remembering to send Horus a card on his birthday.

Phantom wrote:The Emperor not telling Lorgar off is a pretty big one.

This. I say again, THIS^^^^^

What he did to Lorgar was a monumental failure of good leadership. He publicly humiliated Lorgar. Instead of talking to him face to face somewhere like in a closed room on a battle barge, he HUMILIATED Lorgar and his entire legion, no less infront of his 'rival' brother.

Honestly, the Emperor brought the entire thing down on his own head. Angron, Lorgar, secrecy about his plans and I'm sure there are other specifics I'm forgetting right now.

Phantom wrote:The Emperor not telling Lorgar off is a pretty big one.

This. If the big E had never told lorgar to stop worshiping him, erebus would have never done any of that conspiring business.

Not made the primarchs in the first place....

There are a few,

1. The council of Nikea should have never reached its conclusion.
2. Actually listening to Magnus warning, that was later verified by a space wolf rune priest.
3. Having a better communication system in place in general.
4. tell them about the warp, chaos, webway.
5. When leaving the crusade, leave a combination of primarchs in charge ( check and balence)
6. Kill lorgar, the big E knows about chaos gods make the logical step that lorgar will find them and end him before it happens.

iproxtaco wrote:
I concur. With each Primarch bar maybe Fulgrim and Mortarion, he royally fethed them over.

Mortarion never really got on with the Emperor, not after the Emperor saved his butt and killed his once father on Barbarus, you know, what Mortarion swore he would do.

Angron for sure he did a number on and Curze, Magnus possibly was for his own protection, Lorgar should maybe have listened to what his father wanted in the first place, but his reprimand was rather OTT. Horus got rewarded, as did Fulgrim, Alpharius was closer to Horus as he was found by him and spent little time with the Emperor.

Now Peturabo, who was to blame, you could say the Emperor, but possibly it could have been Horus, after all, he was the Warmaster and in control of all the Imperiums forces. This is what the IA article on the Iron Warriors hints at.

So really, was the Emperor to blame for them turning?

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Phantom wrote:The Emperor not telling Lorgar off is a pretty big one.

This. If the big E had never told lorgar to stop worshiping him, erebus would have never done any of that conspiring business.

Erebus and Kor Phaeron would've found away to bring about some form of corruption. They never let the old ways of Colchis go.

I would say the only way to prevent the Heresy would be to stop the Chaos Gods from abducting the Primarchs, either that or just not bother with them.

1.Tell Lorgar not to spread lies about him being a god
2.Horus should have had the balls to just execute Erebus when he began whispering into his ear about the power of Chaos
3.Put Sanguinius in charge ( even Horus would have preferred that)
4.Give all the primarchs a ruling position among humanity, not making the senate.
5.Not making a gakload of ten-thousand strong legions. Instead, just make thousand strong chapters and put different primarchs as their grand masters (not give them absolute power over the chapters)
6.???
7.Profit

stitching logars mouth shut and telling fulgrim to put down the pwiddy sword would have been a start

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:1.Tell Lorgar not to spread lies about him being a god

He did that, that's the fething problem. Humiliating Lorgar and his entire Legion in amid the ashes of a city they created, in front of Guilliman and a bunch of Ultramarines. More imortantly, the Emperor wasn't even going to do himself. He had Malcador do the honors, and only cam down from his big ship once he discovered Lorgar wouldn't listen to someone who had no authority over a Primarch. Doing a bit sooner too, he only left the Word Bearers to do their thing for about 150 years.

2.Horus should have had the balls to just execute Erebus when he began whispering into his ear about the power of Chaos

The fault lies with the Emperor, again. Horus was vulnerable to Chaos because the Emperor didn't tell him why He left, and then started handing over control of the Imperium to a bunch of mortal humans back on Terra, without even as much as a thankyou to any of the Primarchs.

3.Put Sanguinius in charge ( even Horus would have preferred that)

I don't know about this one. Horus was always the best and brightest, the figure-head of the Primarchs, he was the best Warmaster.

4.Give all the primarchs a ruling position among humanity, not making the senate.

Depends. I'd never give the Lion, Curze, Angron, Perturabo, or any of the Traitor Primarchs any sort of authority except for Horus, of course.

5.Not making a gakload of ten-thousand strong legions. Instead, just make thousand strong chapters and put different primarchs as their grand masters (not give them absolute power over the chapters)

The system during the Heresy worked fine, it's the Primarchs that were the problem.

iproxtaco wrote:
The fault lies with the Emperor, again. Horus was vulnerable to Chaos because the Emperor didn't tell him why He left, and then started handing over control of the Imperium to a bunch of mortal humans back on Terra, without even as much as a thankyou to any of the Primarchs.

Is Horus 5, does he need his hand held? He could have manned up to the task and took his fathers words for what they were, that he wasn't ready to reveal his plans yet. Wasn't being made Warmaster reward enough to make him feel appreciated? I agree with you on the mortals part, it must have been rather disheartening to say the least. You're out there building this Empire only to be bossed about by some pencil pusher.

iproxtaco wrote:The system during the Heresy worked fine, it's the Primarchs that were the problem.

I agree, it wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference. If you had even more Chapters doing what they want more trouble could have been caused. At least there were only 9 legions running around, not 500ish traitor Chapters if half turned based on now for example.

1: Instead of crushing Lorgar's beliefs, gently point out that he needed fast progress, and normal humans could be used to instruct the conquered planets in the religions of the Word Bearers. And kill Kor before he becomes a marine.

2: Help Angron instead of kidnapping him.

3: Tell the primarchs about daemons and how they can possess people.

4: Instead of Warmaster, divide authority equally among the primarchs.

5: Find a solution to the Nikea problem. Either personally teach Magnus and let him pass that on to his legion, or soul bind them.

6: Don't divide the Iron Warriors, or at least give them authority in siege warfare to represent the work they do.

It sounds like the Emperor didn't read the manual on parenting. If he had the Imperium would be better off.

To be fair, the guy was trying. He could keep constant watch on his sons while they played around in the wide world of the galaxy. I mean, twenty sons, sheesh, that's some serious parenting. Not to mention they're all demigods with bad attitudes. He may have wanted to sacrifice some speed for keeping them ALL on terra together for a short time. Family time. Loooovey time.

Pilau Rice wrote:Is Horus 5, does he need his hand held? He could have manned up to the task and took his fathers words for what they were, that he wasn't ready to reveal his plans yet. Wasn't being made Warmaster reward enough to make him feel appreciated? I agree with you on the mortals part, it must have been rather disheartening to say the least. You're out there building this Empire only to be bossed about by some pencil pusher

Why couldn't this of happened?

"Well son I'm going to leave the Crusade in your hands now. I've gotta go back to Terra so I can work on making the Webway Gate, which will make space travel safer, faster, and more efficient."

"Oh, okay dad, thanks for telling me. I'll see you later."

For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea. Horus felt like the Emperor was not merely abandoning him, but all they worked for.

At the very least, the Emperor should of told Magnus, IMO.

He should have told all the Primarchs at the very least. Chaos used their ignorance of the truth to make them think the Emperor was trying to ascend to Godhood. It wasn't just Horus who felt that, it was all the eventual traitors. Saying that he needs to work on a project to hack into the webway, it'll make travel much faster and safer would have been enough. Also saying he wouldn't have time to govern the Imperium by himself and is handing over responsibility to some officials, whilst actually saying thanks to each Primarch individually would have probably stopped the Heresy, and all that wouldn't have taken any effort at all.

Void__Dragon wrote:For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea.

Yeah, who does he think he is, anyway? The Emper...? Oh...

He should have been able to see it coming. Seriously, fulgrim wanting perfection and to kill anything nonhuman, as well as induldging in limitless pleasure, angron raging all over the place, hell, magnus even tried to warn him, but he didnt listen, and subsequently lost another legion.
Even some simple communication would have sufficed. Had he listened to magnus or worked out the problems with all of the rebellious legions, things wouldve been much better off.

The Emperor not nuking the crap out of Lorgar's planet.

Ooh, I have a list of stuff that would've helped.

1. Saving Angron and all of his gladiator buddies, even if it meant getting his hands dirty.

2. Giving Perturabo credit and encouraging him to stand up for himself, as opposed to letting the other Primarchs pressure him into unthanked garrison duty.

3. Spend some quality time with Alpharius and Omegon. Did he forget they even existed or something?

4. Help Horus more and try not to put so much pressure on him.

5. Teach the Primarchs about the Warp. He's like the crazy religious parent who refuses to talk about sex to his kids and then one of them gets someone pregnant. Yeah, way to go.

6. Show Konrad that there are other ways to ensure loyalty and he doesn't have to be so mean and mysterious.

7. Make Russ play nicely with his brothers and explain that everyone's Legion uses "sorcery," even his.

8. In addition to spending more time with AlphariusOmegon, he should've also spent more time with Mortarion.

9. Help Magnus understand the Warp and also restructure his Legion so that it wasn't so dependent on "sorcery."

10. Explain to Fulgrim that being perfect isn't everything. Also that drugs are bad.

11. Don't be so mean to Lorgar when he wants to worship him. Politely explain that he isn't a god and maybe Lorgar should spend more time on the Crusade and less time worshiping him.

Essentially, the Emperor should've been a better parent and spent more time with his kids. Instead of treating them like people, he just wanted them to support him when he got older. As a result they ed him up and left him in a life support machine in a dingy hospital.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Kill Erebus and Kor Phareon, and probably kill Lorgar. Probably should purge the entire word bearers legion.

The destruction of an entire Legion would be difficult, and would raise more than a few red flags. It isn't easy to convince zealots of their mistakes, but it would be easier than exterminating them.

On another note, not playing favorites is a good way to keep arguments (and homicide ) away. C'mon Empy, Perturabo can't be that bad!

To the above poster, he did it before. Twice.

The Emperor's time is super precious how many people you think he's got demanding his time? Besides, he couldn't see their immediate futures or his own future. Chaos is a $#@%@$

He expected the Primarches to live up to his expectations, he didn't count on them being so human.

But still...Not saving Angron's bros...Not cool.

Personally, even though it would pain the Emperor to do so, he should have let Angorn have his wish to die fighting beside his "bros" instead of saving him at the last minute.

He should have done the old: Teleport in with Custodes and members of Angron's legion to be, save and beat rear ends, show off martial prowess, impress Angron, earn love & loyalty of Angron

Void__Dragon wrote:

Why couldn't this of happened?

"Well son I'm going to leave the Crusade in your hands now. I've gotta go back to Terra so I can work on making the Webway Gate, which will make space travel safer, faster, and more efficient."

"Oh, okay dad, thanks for telling me. I'll see you later."

For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea. Horus felt like the Emperor was not merely abandoning him, but all they worked for.

At the very least, the Emperor should of told Magnus, IMO.

It would have been a good idea, but was it really necessary, should it have been necessary? If Horus loved his father as much as it is implied then couldn't he have just accepted that he wasn't ready to start revealing his plans. Looking back yeah, it was something that the Emperor should have told Horus, because Horus was weak.

I'm playing a bit of Devils Advocate here as I think that it would have been right for the Emperor to sit his Sons down and say look boys, I have to go and work on something very important it will do x, y and z etc etc. Rather than right I'm orf back to Terra, Horus you're in charge GOOD BAI!

In a way the Emperor did tell Magnus

insaniak wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea.

Yeah, who does he think he is, anyway? The Emper...? Oh...

Quite right.

Prevent the release of "Adeptus Titanicus"

The Hersey wouldn't had happened if Horus had not succumbed on Davin to the twisted view of the future chaos showed him.

If only the Interex's security was a bit better?

daveNYC wrote:Remembering to send Horus a card on his birthday.

When I first saw this thread i thought, "Man this is a great discussion, I really need to pick up the horus heresy series instead of just cruising lexicanum for factoids"

Then I saw this post and started giggling as I thought of the Eye of Terror cover with Horus wearing a party hat with a little tear in his eye.

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=I= White-Wolf wrote:It never could have...tis all in the emperor's grand plan, you don't think that one of the most powerful warp presences other than the big 4 wouldn't notice one of his sons talking to possibly the most deadly of the chaos gods? We will never know what was said when the emperor boarded Horus' barge, but hey, the emperor can see the future and has been alive for some 48 000 years, and only decided to make his presence known in the 30th millennium I believe it would be impossible, it would of happened one way or another...

He's the Emperor, not father christmas.

The chaos gods might have clouded his vision, or more likely he can't actually see into the future. If he could Horus probably would not have been able to beat him, he would have been able to forsee all his blows, and stuff.



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Red Comet wrote:It sounds like the Emperor didn't read the manual on parenting. If he had the Imperium would be better off.

Sig quoteable.

zilegil wrote:
The chaos gods might have clouded his vision, or more likely he can't actually see into the future. If he could Horus probably would not have been able to beat him, he would have been able to forsee all his blows, and stuff.

The Emperor could see the future, it says so in one of the short stories. However, He could not see past a certain point (which is never elaborated upon). That's not how the seeing the future works in 40K. There are many different strands of the future, and you can only determine which is the more likely (hence why the Eldar can actually lose in battle even if they have a Farseer). In close combat, it's unlikely that you'd be able to see the future sufficiently clearly, quickly enough, and with little enough effort to actually continue fighting.

Ref Angron

I believe Angron had steeled himself for his honorable death in a final glorious battle against his enslavers with his loyal gladiator buddies. He had two/three days to build himself up for that epic death. The Emperor took that death from him and that was what lost him to the Emperor forever. His Gladiator chums were just part of that grand stage Angron had built for himself.

Angron was a proud and consummate warrior and a warrior should die in an epic battle against the odds that meant something.

In the emperors defence he couldnt teleport down and interfere in Angron's battle as he would have lost him that way as well by stealing his moment/glory. The timing cost the Emperor with Angron, a week earlier and it all would have been so different, so i dont think anything the Emperor could do at that point other than save Angron and hope Angron would forgive him.

In stopping the Heresy.

1 Recognize the taint on Colcis when Lorgat was found, that the cult was a Chaos worshipping one and steering Lorgar away from it.

2 The Emperor underestimating the Chaos gods, he should have known they would have tried something big and his sons were prime targets as they were at their initial dispersal due to the raw chaos he had used to give them their powers in the first place.

3 He gave Horus too much power, he should have split it 4 ways, Horus, Sanginius, Gulliman and Fulgrim, either as a council or four crusade leaders (N, S, E W of the galaxy).

The Emperor should have let Horus keep his pets:

The Emperor, who can see the future, not creating Lorgar.

Pilau Rice wrote:It would have been a good idea, but was it really necessary, should it have been necessary? If Horus loved his father as much as it is implied then couldn't he have just accepted that he wasn't ready to start revealing his plans. Looking back yeah, it was something that the Emperor should have told Horus, because Horus was weak.

It's not just parental, it's professional. Horus was both his son and his greatest general. It is unusual for an Emperor to not consult those who work directly under him on his plans, it implied to Horus that the Emperor didn't trust him enough, despite all he had done. And really... There was no reason at all not to tell the Primarchs.

Do note I'm not trying to say "Horus was right to join Chaos and betray the Emperor," but I can sorta see why he let this moment of weakness occur that allowed him to be corrupted.

At the same time, the Emperor did a lot of gak that led to his sons turning traitor. There is no justification for what he did to Angron.

I'm playing a bit of Devils Advocate here as I think that it would have been right for the Emperor to sit his Sons down and say look boys, I have to go and work on something very important it will do x, y and z etc etc. Rather than right I'm orf back to Terra, Horus you're in charge GOOD BAI!

I don't think you can argue otherwise, IMO, lol. There was no reason for the Emperor's secrecy with that in particular.

In a way the Emperor did tell Magnus

Spoiler:

after he discovers the webway portal on Aghoru and lets the Emperor know about it, who in turn says he already knows.

You could argue someone as intelligent as Magnus should of made the logical leap, or at least considered that, but I wouldn't consider tha telling him, myself.

Quite right.

It's thinking like that that put the Emperor on a chair for ten thousand years.


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heresy4life wrote:Ref Angron

I believe Angron had steeled himself for his honorable death in a final glorious battle against his enslavers with his loyal gladiator buddies. He had two/three days to build himself up for that epic death. The Emperor took that death from him and that was what lost him to the Emperor forever. His Gladiator chums were just part of that grand stage Angron had built for himself.

Angron was a proud and consummate warrior and a warrior should die in an epic battle against the odds that meant something.

In the emperors defence he couldnt teleport down and interfere in Angron's battle as he would have lost him that way as well by stealing his moment/glory. The timing cost the Emperor with Angron, a week earlier and it all would have been so different, so i dont think anything the Emperor could do at that point other than save Angron and hope Angron would forgive him.

In stopping the Heresy.

1 Recognize the taint on Colcis when Lorgat was found, that the cult was a Chaos worshipping one and steering Lorgar away from it.

2 The Emperor underestimating the Chaos gods, he should have known they would have tried something big and his sons were prime targets as they were at their initial dispersal due to the raw chaos he had used to give them their powers in the first place.

3 He gave Horus too much power, he should have split it 4 ways, Horus, Sanginius, Gulliman and Fulgrim, either as a council or four crusade leaders (N, S, E W of the galaxy).

According to After De'Shea, what bothers him most is that he can't give his due to his dead brothers and sisters the way the gladiators were taught to, because he didn't even see how they died. He didn't want to die, but he also didn't want to abandon his fellow slaves, without even being able to see their final moment.

Void__Dragon wrote:
There was no reason for the Emperor's secrecy with that in particular.

Reasons:

1) No Primarch other than Magnus knows the Webway even exists.

2) The Eldar absolutely can't find out about the project. It can't become common knowledge.

3) He had no idea if it would work and the Emperor of Mankind cannot fail or let anyone know he failed.

4) Perhaps he never wanted anyone to know the original purpose/construction of the Webway. Maybe he wanted credit for the whole thing.

5) Probably just that being the Emperor made him a little too self important.

I think it could all have been avoided if, when he was about make Horus Warmaster, he told the Primarchs to leave their best generals in charge of the legions for a while, then took all the Primarchs back to Terra with him, showed them the throne, talked them all through the plan, explained everything, listened to their thoughts on it, and told them his plans for each of them.
And cooking a nice family meal wouldn't have gone amiss either, I mean really, 48 00 years old, I'm sure he can cook a decent meal for his kids as a celebration for what they were about to do. Maybe have Christmas as a family for once. But I digress, he should have just given his sons the tour of Daddy's workshop and explained that he has to work long hours from home for a while, so the they have to take over the family business for a while.

BrainDeleted wrote:Reasons:

1) No Primarch other than Magnus knows the Webway even exists.

2) The Eldar absolutely can't find out about the project. It can't become common knowledge.

3) He had no idea if it would work and the Emperor of Mankind cannot fail or let anyone know he failed.

4) Perhaps he never wanted anyone to know the original purpose/construction of the Webway. Maybe he wanted credit for the whole thing.

5) Probably just that being the Emperor made him a little too self important.

Okay, no "good" reasons.

Were those reasons true, it really just supports the notion that the Emperor is a dick.

-From the very start telling the primarchs of the dangers of the warp.
-Letting Angron finnish his fight.
-Choosing a more 'subtle' way to caution both Lorgar and Magnus.
-Seeing the GC through to the bitter end.
-Telling the primarchs the importance of his webway project.

Given his sons 'the talk' instead of delaying it.

Alll of these are really good. One i'd like to add is the iron warriors. They were treated like crap, basically if they'd have been kept as a real legion and not spread out then istvaan would have probably turned out 100% differently. Considering they already pretty much hated the imperium by the time horus brought them a fruit basket.

Alll of these are really good. One i'd like to add is the iron warriors. They were treated like crap, basically if they'd have been kept as a real legion and not spread out then istvaan would have probably turned out 100% differently. Considering they already pretty much hated the imperium by the time horus brought them a fruit basket.

Pretty much.

The Emp did his fair share of scolding and wrist slapping. Magnus being a big one in my book. Council of Nikea tried to send him to his room with no video games. Nice try.

im2randomghgh wrote:The Emperor, who can see the future, not creating Lorgar.

I don't get how the Emperor who had unparalleled foresight didn't see the whole Heresy thing coming. I can only guess that it was down to the intervention of the Chaos Gods, but maybe he might have thought, hmm I can't see past this turn of events perhaps I should play it safe for awhile. I guess this could be why he left the Crusade when he did. He had spent enough time to see how loyal they were to him and decided that the end of Ullanor was the time to leave. I hope we get some insight into what was going on in the Emperors mind to see why he didn't see what was going to happen.

Void__Dragon wrote:It's not just parental, it's professional. Horus was both his son and his greatest general. It is unusual for an Emperor to not consult those who work directly under him on his plans, it implied to Horus that the Emperor didn't trust him enough, despite all he had done. And really... There was no reason at all not to tell the Primarchs.

Apart from the greatest human being there ever being believing that they weren't ready to find out? Maybe he was afraid what they might do, perhaps he was worried that if he told them they might be rather upset that they would be effectively redundant, I wonder what might have happened if they felt like that, maybe they might have rebelled?

Void__Dragon wrote:Do note I'm not trying to say "Horus was right to join Chaos and betray the Emperor," but I can sorta see why he let this moment of weakness occur that allowed him to be corrupted.

Oh yeah I entirely agree, I'm just sticking up for the Emperor, he gets a rough deal It's quite clear though that the Emperor was a bit of a nob.

Void__Dragon wrote:At the same time, the Emperor did a lot of gak that led to his sons turning traitor. There is no justification for what he did to Angron.

True, but then again some didn't help themselves and some like Mortarion, harboured grudges, not all entirely due to the Emperor. He could have handled Angron better for sure, that's undeniable. But maybe he teleported him off the planet out of Love, if not necessity? He's already had to lose two of his sons.

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't think you can argue otherwise, IMO, lol. There was no reason for the Emperor's secrecy with that in particular.

We might not think so, but the Emperor certainly did.

Void__Dragon wrote:You could argue someone as intelligent as Magnus should of made the logical leap, or at least considered that, but I wouldn't consider tha telling him, myself.

If Magnus was intelligent he would have stopped using Sorcery after Nikaea

Void__Dragon wrote:It's thinking like that that put the Emperor on a chair for ten thousand years.

Or was it other people Egos that were to blame?

Pilau Rice wrote:He could have handled Angron better for sure, that's undeniable. But maybe he teleported him off the planet out of Love, if not necessity? He's already had to lose two of his sons.

If the Emperor really loved Angron then He would have saved Angrons comrades as well. The fact that He didn't is suspicious. Either the Emperor just decided not to for no real reason, or it had something to do with that world in particular (the best argument I've heard was that it held important technology or information, so it was important to keep the high-riders on-board (and He probably figured that Angron would get over it)).

I think the Emperor was a bit peeved at this moment as Angron had killed 2 of his Custodes as well as been told to get bent by him as well.

Maybe if Angron had been a bit ... nicer about the whole situation the Emperor might have lent a hand?

Good idea though about the Tech.

The Emperor had just told him to abandon his allies in fairness to him. It's understandable he'd get a bit annoyed.

I thought the High Riders were Dark Eldar for some reason...

Pilau Rice wrote:I think the Emperor was a bit peeved at this moment as Angron had killed 2 of his Custodes as well as been told to get bent by him as well.

Maybe if Angron had been a bit ... nicer about the whole situation the Emperor might have lent a hand?

The Emperor had, however, just tried to get him to abandon his friends and comrades to die while Angron survived on a spaceship with no explanation given as to why Angron should trust the Emperor or why the Emperor would not save his comrades.

Good idea though about the Tech.

It's the only idea I've heard that seems to make sense. Otherwise it seems like the Emperor wanted to anger Angron.

Pilau Rice wrote:I think the Emperor was a bit peeved at this moment as Angron had killed 2 of his Custodes as well as been told to get bent by him as well.

Maybe if Angron had been a bit ... nicer about the whole situation the Emperor might have lent a hand?

Good idea though about the Tech.

Eh, there's plenty of instances where the first meeting between Emperor and Primarch was a tad hostile. You'd think that the Emperor would have cut Angron a little slack, what with the brain surgery that had been inflicted on him and the rather stressful situation that he was in. Instead he just dumps him off on the World Eaters, who end up having a half-dozen of their guys pulped before they're able to talk him down.

I think the Emperor thought the best way to ensure the primarchs' loyalty was to humiliate them if they didn't immediately submit to his authority. Russ, Angron, Mortarion... why didn't he just help them instead?

Yeah, lots of ways to avoid the big meltdown:

-Giving the primarchs and the legions some basic primer on Chaos. "They will try to corrupt you and will undo you through you very virtues. Give them no heed."

-Not crapping all over Lorgar and Magnus. Even if he wanted to get his way, he could have done it better.

-More practically, the Luna Wolves putting Horus in statis (as they eventually -did-) when he got wounded and going back to Terra so the Emperor could heal and reassure him.

One word. Boobs. 'Nuff said.

Thatguy91 wrote:One word. Boobs. 'Nuff said.

Empress of man?

Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

How can you embark on universal conquest when your wife keeps nagging "get your power armor out of the living room!" and "get that powerfist out of my sock draw!" for the next 10 thousand years?

what keeps all families together?


dinner. They needed more family dinners where they could speak

True, but it would have been one more thing to keep them at the emperors side. At the risk of sounding very corny I will say that the power Love has over people can be just as strong as the power that chaos has to subjugate.

Jollydevil wrote:

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

How can you embark on universal conquest when your wife keeps nagging "get your power armor out of the living room!" and "get that powerfist out of my sock draw!" for the next 10 thousand years?

When they were on their home planet, though. Surely they would've been the most eligible bachelors in the world?

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

I'd have to imagine it'd be because the Primarchs are generally over ten feet tall with the strength to level mountains.

"Ouch" does not begin to describe it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:Apart from the greatest human being there ever being believing that they weren't ready to find out? Maybe he was afraid what they might do, perhaps he was worried that if he told them they might be rather upset that they would be effectively redundant, I wonder what might have happened if they felt like that, maybe they might have rebelled?

That doesn't make sense though. Why would they be redundant? "Oh, you mean we get to go to the planets we kick ass on even faster?" I see no logical reason why the Emperor would believe that.

Personally, my interpretation is that, like how every Primarch inherited aspects of the Emperor, the Lion inherited the Emperor's total lack of real charisma and inability to read others. Oh sure, his immense psychic powers that made everyone in the room get boners and his ability to read minds compensated when around lesser beings, but such methods didn't work on the Primarchs, who all had immense psychic defenses and were not as prone to insta-boners in the Emperor's presence. So, he didn't know how to really handle them in a way without pissing someone off. It helps that IMO the Emperor has never been portrayed as genuinely charismatic IMHO, he came off as kind of a ponce in "The Last Church" for example.

Oh yeah I entirely agree, I'm just sticking up for the Emperor, he gets a rough deal It's quite clear though that the Emperor was a bit of a nob.

Yeah. Don't mistake my opinion though either, I think the Emperor was sort of a dick, but he wasn't a monster, and is much less vile than many beings in the settings, and some Primarchs, like Mortarion for example.

True, but then again some didn't help themselves and some like Mortarion, harboured grudges, not all entirely due to the Emperor. He could have handled Angron better for sure, that's undeniable. But maybe he teleported him off the planet out of Love, if not necessity? He's already had to lose two of his sons.

Well, Mortarion I'll admit couldn't really be helped so easily. I don't know a whole lot about Mortarion, but from what I can tell, Mortarion's defining character trait is that he's sinister, to the core. I could buy the Emperor teleporting Angron off-planet to save him, but... Why not do that to his brothers and sisters to? Or better yet, why not use your massive ship to utterly annihilate the enemy force? Or just destroy them yourself? Which really would have given the Emperor Angron's respect, the Emperor riding into battle with him and crushing the enemy army under his own power. It wouldn't even be difficult for the Emperor.

We might not think so, but the Emperor certainly did.

I think it's more that the Emperor didn't think him not telling them would be of any consequence, rather than a conscious decision to withhold information.

If Magnus was intelligent he would have stopped using Sorcery after Nikaea

To be fair, he did stop, until he was able to make sense of his vision, discern that it was true, and used sorcery to trasmit a message to Horus and then the Emperor.

Or was it other people Egos that were to blame?

The Emperor is just as guilty of arrogance as the Primarchs, IMO. Though yes, many traitor Primarchs were horribly arrogant, like Fulgrim, Horus, and Magnus in particular.

Having just finished Outcast Dead I get the impression that there was no way the Heresy could have been avoided which makes me think the Emperor was a **** to half the primarchs so when it did happen He'd know who was on what side.

Female primarchs... now there's an idea...

The only way the Heresy could have really been prevented, 100%...Stop the scattering of the Primarches.

The Emperor tells Horus what he was gonna do on Terra.
Honestly, what reason did he have to not tell his most trusted son about it?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:One word. Boobs. 'Nuff said.

Empress of man?

Yes, children who weren't breastfed tend to turn out maladjusted. Bam, there's your Heresy right there.

For an all wise and smart dude that lived for thousands of years and has seen plenty of stuff he made some rather elementary mistakes...

a) Angorn : Get down there and help him, if you cant turn the tide offer him an escape for him and his surviving people
b) Mortarion : Dont be so gloomy...
c) Horus & Magnus & Lorgar : Tell them why you are doing what you are doing in each case (why you are leaving,why sorcery = bad , why you are not a god)
d) Explain Warp&Chaos (Summary: Fire burns wood, Chaos burns your soul and no you cannot tame it, I am looking at you Magnus)
e) Fulgrim : You are NOT supposed to be perfect, me loves you the way you are
f) Perturabo : Thank you for being there and doing the job no1 wants to, dont know what we would do without you. Now Dorn take his responsibilities and give the guy a break from sieges and garrisons
g) Russ : I use sorcery and you were created by it so stop nagging and whining like a pup
h) Guil : You are not superior so stop looking down your brothers
i) Alph & Omeg : You 2 are spenidng more time with me and enough with trying to confuse me on who is who, get your helmets off while you are talking to me
j) Lion : Dont be so secretive, we are not in Caliban and you are not in the woods any more
k) Cruze : Terror does not always work, try to be more polite

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
The Emperor had, however, just tried to get him to abandon his friends and comrades to die while Angron survived on a spaceship with no explanation given as to why Angron should trust the Emperor or why the Emperor would not save his comrades.

I think the whole meeting between the two when the Emperor tried to talk to him would have included the explanation. I am your father you are my son etc etc.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It's the only idea I've heard that seems to make sense. Otherwise it seems like the Emperor wanted to anger Angron.

Or maybe he didn't you know, want to see his son die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Why would they be redundant? "Oh, you mean we get to go to the planets we kick ass on even faster?" I see no logical reason why the Emperor would believe that.

Personally, my interpretation is that, like how every Primarch inherited aspects of the Emperor, the Lion inherited the Emperor's total lack of real charisma and inability to read others. Oh sure, his immense psychic powers that made everyone in the room get boners and his ability to read minds compensated when around lesser beings, but such methods didn't work on the Primarchs, who all had immense psychic defenses and were not as prone to insta-boners in the Emperor's presence. So, he didn't know how to really handle them in a way without pissing someone off. It helps that IMO the Emperor has never been portrayed as genuinely charismatic IMHO, he came off as kind of a ponce in "The Last Church" for example.

The Primarchs were created out of necessity, they were created to wage war across the stars. Like the Thunder Warriors were created to wage war across Terra. If the webway was completed before the Primarch Project then the Emperor would not have required the Primarchs. Read the Outcast Dead for an insight into this.

And on Lion, there's two conflicting accounts on him one that can and one that can't read people, Horus comments on it in I think Horus Rising.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, Mortarion I'll admit couldn't really be helped so easily. I don't know a whole lot about Mortarion, but from what I can tell, Mortarion's defining character trait is that he's sinister, to the core. I could buy the Emperor teleporting Angron off-planet to save him, but... Why not do that to his brothers and sisters to? Or better yet, why not use your massive ship to utterly annihilate the enemy force? Or just destroy them yourself? Which really would have given the Emperor Angron's respect, the Emperor riding into battle with him and crushing the enemy army under his own power. It wouldn't even be difficult for the Emperor.

That's my thoughts exactly, why didn't he help Angron like he did Corax on Deliverance? I think he let his humanity get in the way. Angron made him Angry

Void__Dragon wrote:To be fair, he did stop, until he was able to make sense of his vision, discern that it was true, and used sorcery to trasmit a message to Horus and then the Emperor.

No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Pilau Rice wrote:
No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Yes, they did. He ordered they abstain from all psychic powers and sent them to the libraries of Prospero to do research into the revelations given to him by that daemon. Then, when he gathered all the material and decided to try and save Horus/communicate with the Emperor, they were all uneasy with it because it seemed to ritualistic/sorcerous.

Please, if you're going to correct people, at least have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

The Emperor should have punished Lorgar differently after the events at Monarchia. If he had done so, Lorgar wouldn't have gone into the Eye of Terror, wouldn't have met Ingrethel, who wouldn't have taken Argel Tal the Gal Vorbak back to the creation of the Primarches. If this hadn't had happened, Argel Tal wouldn't have destroyed the Geller Field protecting the developing Primarches, preventing them from being sucked into the Warp, which subsequently prevents them being tainted by Chaos. If Lorgar wasn't tainted in this case then it is completly averted.

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Yes, they did. He ordered they abstain from all psychic powers and sent them to the libraries of Prospero to do research into the revelations given to him by that daemon. Then, when he gathered all the material and decided to try and save Horus/communicate with the Emperor, they were all uneasy with it because it seemed to ritualistic/sorcerous.

Please, if you're going to correct people, at least have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

But he didn't did he, contacting Horus on Davin via Sorcery check, contacting the Emperor on Earth via Sorcery check. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons had kept their noses clean, would the Emperor had to unleash the Wolves on them? No.

Knowing that there were instances I went home and flicked through the book a Thousand Sons, voila

We have Lemuels continued training, Amon and Ankhu Anen trying to discover what was bugging Magnus, Hathor Matt using his power to burn out the Psychneuein larva. Only they know what else the other Thousand Sons were getting up to.

They were uneasy because of the level of power required for the Sorcery.

Pilau Rice wrote:I think the whole meeting between the two when the Emperor tried to talk to him would have included the explanation. I am your father you are my son etc etc.

It was a terrible way to try and make a 'meeting'. You're my son, come leave your brothers-in-arms who you've just lead in rebellion to die. Noone is going to believe the Emperor in that situation. Angron didn't even know why he'd been taken when he was talking to Kharn.

Or maybe he didn't you know, want to see his son die.

The Emperor could have saved the rest of the gladiators. He chose not to. The High-Riders would not have been able to resist an entire Astartes Legion with the Emperor at their fore.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It was a terrible way to try and make a 'meeting'. You're my son, come leave your brothers-in-arms who you've just lead in rebellion to die. Noone is going to believe the Emperor in that situation. Angron didn't even know why he'd been taken when he was talking to Kharn.

But none of the other Primarchs that he sat down with and had a chat to tried to attack him. Challenged him, yeah, attacked him not quite.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
The Emperor could have saved the rest of the gladiators. He chose not to. The High-Riders would not have been able to resist an entire Astartes Legion with the Emperor at their fore.

I get that, but this is after Angrons attacked him.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Yes, they did. He ordered they abstain from all psychic powers and sent them to the libraries of Prospero to do research into the revelations given to him by that daemon. Then, when he gathered all the material and decided to try and save Horus/communicate with the Emperor, they were all uneasy with it because it seemed to ritualistic/sorcerous.

Please, if you're going to correct people, at least have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

But he didn't did he, contacting Horus on Davin via Sorcery check, contacting the Emperor on Earth via Sorcery check. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons had kept their noses clean, would the Emperor had to unleash the Wolves on them? No.

Knowing that there were instances I went home and flicked through the book a Thousand Sons, voila

We have Lemuels continued training, Amon and Ankhu Anen trying to discover what was bugging Magnus, Hathor Matt using his power to burn out the Psychneuein larva. Only they know what else the other Thousand Sons were getting up to.

They were uneasy because of the level of power required for the Sorcery.

So you are just confirming what I said, they didn't use any sorcery except for the rituals Magnus decided were necessary, and they were all uncomfortable with the ritualistic/pagan (for a lack of a better word) nature of them.

Lemuel's training and Hathor Mat's therapy are not sorcery, there is no indication that they were sorcery. Yes, these things went against Magnus' order to follow the Emperor's prohibition against psychic powers, but it seems every other Legion ignored that as well.

And the Emperor didn't "unleash" the Wolves on them, they were sent to bring Magnus to Terra, but rabid dogs are easily manipulated/misdirected.

Omegus wrote:
So you are just confirming what I said, they didn't use any sorcery except for the rituals Magnus decided were necessary, and they were all uncomfortable with the ritualistic/pagan (for a lack of a better word) nature of them.

Lemuel's training and Hathor Mat's therapy are not sorcery, there is no indication that they were sorcery. Yes, these things went against Magnus' order to follow the Emperor's prohibition against psychic powers, but it seems every other Legion ignored that as well.

And the Emperor didn't "unleash" the Wolves on them, they were sent to bring Magnus to Terra, but rabid dogs are easily manipulated/misdirected.

Sorcery and the use of psychic powers with the Thousand Sons is one and the same. They were told not to use any power, but they still continued to do so. Where in A Thousand Sons does it say that Magnus ordered his troops to cease the use of their powers?

Yeah so the Emperor Unleashed them to bring Magnus back to Terra, they are little more than Dogs so that terms correct. Unleashed is the term used in Outcast Dead, Horus just changed the order. Unleashed, sent, directed, doesn't matter. Magnus still caused the Emperor to send the Wolves to Prospero because he decided to ignore what the Emperor said.

Pilau Rice wrote:
But none of the other Primarchs that he sat down with and had a chat to tried to attack him. Challenged him, yeah, attacked him not quite.

None of them were kidnapped and effectively made to stand idly by while their comrades were being slaughtered.

I get that, but this is after Angrons attacked him.

Angron attacked the Emperor after the Emperor kidnapped him via teleportation (an entirely justifiable response). Didn't the Emperor ask him to leave his comrades while actually on the planet, and then when Angron refused returned to His ship and teleported Angron up?

If the Emperer hand't been a prat and sent Leman Russ to wipe out the Thousand Sons perhaps both of those legions would have been available for the fight at terra and the loses would have been far less severe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OR MAYBE IF THE EMPERER HAD LISTENED TO MAGNUS! Magnus busts through reality and F's some stuff up, maybe he had a really good reason to go so far as he did. The emperer should have atleast asked why he did it, then things might have been different if the Emperer had known about the heresy.

ZombieJoe wrote:If the Emperer hand't been a prat and sent Leman Russ to wipe out the Thousand Sons perhaps both of those legions would have been available for the fight at terra and the loses would have been far less severe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OR MAYBE IF THE EMPERER HAD LISTENED TO MAGNUS! Magnus busts through reality and F's some stuff up, maybe he had a really good reason to go so far as he did. The emperer should have atleast asked why he did it, then things might have been different if the Emperer had known about the heresy.

If Magnus had listened to the emporer than his legion wouldnt have been caught up in this mess. The Emporer had told him not to use psychic powers, because hed be playing right into the hands of the chaos gods. And, lo and behold, geuss what happened?

He told him not to use Sorcery, but yes, you're right.

ZombieJoe wrote:If the Emperer hand't been a prat and sent Leman Russ to wipe out the Thousand Sons perhaps both of those legions would have been available for the fight at terra and the loses would have been far less severe.

Unless it's been retconned, he didn't. He ordered Russ to go retrieve Magnus and bring him back to Terra. Horus manipulated Russ into being more aggressive.

OR MAYBE IF THE EMPERER HAD LISTENED TO MAGNUS! Magnus busts through reality and F's some stuff up, maybe he had a really good reason to go so far as he did. The emperer should have atleast asked why he did it, then things might have been different if the Emperer had known about the heresy.

I'm pretty sure Magnus' message did get through. However, the Emperor wasn't exactly going to believe one of his sons who had disobeyed him over his favoured son who hadn't shown any signs of treachery (yet. Maybe. Apparently 'The Outcast Dead' muddies the waters. We'll have to wait and see.)

Pilau Rice wrote:The Primarchs were created out of necessity, they were created to wage war across the stars. Like the Thunder Warriors were created to wage war across Terra. If the webway was completed before the Primarch Project then the Emperor would not have required the Primarchs. Read the Outcast Dead for an insight into this.

Uh, unless Lexicanum is wrong, The Outcast Dead isn't actually out. How would I get around to reading this?

Why would he not of required the Primarchs? And all this is really saying to me is that the Primarch's fears that they would be rendered obsolete in the new Imperium, and their disapproval towards the High Council of Terra was entirely justified.

And on Lion, there's two conflicting accounts on him one that can and one that can't read people, Horus comments on it in I think Horus Rising.

When in Horus Rising is the Lion's status as a douchey douchebag who is also a douche contradicted?

That's my thoughts exactly, why didn't he help Angron like he did Corax on Deliverance? I think he let his humanity get in the way. Angron made him Angry

I should probably point out Angron only killed two of the Emperor's Custodians (With his bare hands, like a badass) after being teleported from De'Shea, due to being angry that his homies were getting slaughtered without him. Which is entirely justified. Personally, I view it like this: Angron defied the Emperor, so the Emperor made him suffer. He does that kind of thing on occasion, like with Lorgar.

No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Sorcery=/=Psychic abilities.

And really, you're holding killing Psychneuein larva before it could be born against the Sons? Really? Training Lemuel wasn't sorcery, nor was trying to make sense of Magnus' prophecy.

Also, no, Ahriman notes specifically they were uneasy because of how the ritualistic nature of what they were doing in transporting Magnus reminded them of the Witches and Wyrds they have encountered before, not just the power required.

Sometimes you cant tell your kids about all the bad things that are out there in the world (universe) because they aren't ready for them yet. You cant crush their hopes and dreams by telling them that there are things out there that will destroy them, defile them and crush everything they love and care about. You cant create the devil and give him to children.

Sometimes you just have to handle the problem yourself, the Emperor - being a parent - apparently believed that his children - the primarchs - were not ready for the things that go bump in the night and that he could solve them. But then you have to ask yourself, "Is the Emperor a stupid jerk?" He is suppose to be the Master of Mankind, but what if some injected theme of this story is, "Your parents might seem invincible and all knowing, but they aren't."

Or if he knows what is going to happen and doesn't care then he has to have some alternate motive. I'm confused now.

Or GW is just trying to make an interesting story, wrapped in betrayal, revenge and mystery.

Being a good father, and then telling them about the dangers of the warp and to be ready if they try and corrupt them.

The Emperor was a fool to allow Horus to run the Crusade.
I'm sure another Primarch could have overseen the protection of Terra.
Being secretive about the warp was foolish too.

I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

Jollydevil wrote:I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

He did, don't worry.

Horus killed him so hard the Blood Angels are still feeling it.

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

While Russ probably wasn't married, it's safe to say he probably partook of the pleasures of the flesh.

From the Saga of the Wolf-King:

"No man nor beast could best the Wolf-King,
No tribe could stand against his armies,
Within Russ' Kingdom a truce
existed between man and wolf,
His court was attended by the fiercest of
Warlords and the most beautiful of maidens".

This was before the Emperor came to collect him but one could see that Russ probably did what his fellow fenrisians did.

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

He is one of the better Primarchs, with probably the least amount of psychological issues.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
None of them were kidnapped and effectively made to stand idly by while their comrades were being slaughtered.

Angron attacked the Emperor after the Emperor kidnapped him via teleportation (an entirely justifiable response). Didn't the Emperor ask him to leave his comrades while actually on the planet, and then when Angron refused returned to His ship and teleported Angron up?

I'll have a reread, as I guess it depends on the situation. I remember it as the Emperor went down to Angron, had his little chat, Angron got mad killed some Custodes, the Emperor got annoyed and went back to his ship and Teleported Angron to the War Hounds ship, leaving them to deal with him, such a nice guy.

If I have how it went down right then what I mean is maybe if Angron had been a bit more civil, had a nice cup of tea and a biscuit rather than a fistfight, things might have been different. The Emperor might have helped him, but Angron isn't the kind of guy to ask for help really is he? Corax spoke to the Emperor for a day and a night and the Emperor only agreed to help Corax fight the Tech - Guilds as Corax made it one of the terms before accepting command of the Raven Guard.

But if I'm wrong, and I often am, then he handled it even worse than I thought.

He handled Angron badly for sure, I'm not denying that at all, I'm just trying to give a justification, if a bad one, as to why the Emperor did what he did.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Uh, unless Lexicanum is wrong, The Outcast Dead isn't actually out. How would I get around to reading this?

Why would he not of required the Primarchs? And all this is really saying to me is that the Primarch's fears that they would be rendered obsolete in the new Imperium, and their disapproval towards the High Council of Terra was entirely justified.

It's out on the Black Library site and our local GW had it's Birthday, I picked up Deliverance Lost as well

They are his generals to wage war across the stars, with the Webway complete he wouldn't need to rely on them so much, if at all. The Emperor would be able to send his troops through the gateway himself. He managed with the Primarchs well enough in the early days of the Great Crusade. That's what I think anyhoo. And that's kinda what I am saying if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs that they weren't going to be waging war anymore, that they would be playing scrabble and baking cakes, then they would be a bit miffed and yeah, justified. The Emperor creates tools that he can throw away when he doesn't need them anymore. His main concern is for humankind.

Void__Dragon wrote:When in Horus Rising is the Lion's status as a douchey douchebag who is also a douche contradicted?

When Horus is having a breakdown he says that being the Warmaster is too much and that he can't read men like the Lion or something like that. I'll find the page and update later.

Void__Dragon wrote:I should probably point out Angron only killed two of the Emperor's Custodians (With his bare hands, like a badass) after being teleported from De'Shea, due to being angry that his homies were getting slaughtered without him. Which is entirely justified. Personally, I view it like this: Angron defied the Emperor, so the Emperor made him suffer. He does that kind of thing on occasion, like with Lorgar.

I'll have a refresh later, but what you've said is along the same lines as what I have said. The Emperor got angry at Angron.

Void__Dragon wrote:Sorcery=/=Psychic abilities.

And really, you're holding killing Psychneuein larva before it could be born against the Sons? Really? Training Lemuel wasn't sorcery, nor was trying to make sense of Magnus' prophecy.

Not at all. I'm just reiterating the point that they didn't stop using their powers. Sorcery probably was the wrong term in reference to the use of their powers, but the two major incantations performed by Magnus with aid of his Sons were major use of Sorcery. He had good intentions, fair enough, but he still chose to ignore all that the Emperor said, after the first one where he contacted Horus, perhaps he should have thought to use an Astropath? I know he dismisses it as unreliable but the outcome would have been better for him and Terra. With Amon and Ankhu Anen, we don't know what they did to try and discern what Magnus was doing, maybe they had the assistance of their Tutelaries.

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, no, Ahriman notes specifically they were uneasy because of how the ritualistic nature of what they were doing in transporting Magnus reminded them of the Witches and Wyrds they have encountered before, not just the power required.

Fair enough, only partial merit for me

Edits: Many

The Emprah! was a huge hypocrite...

Just sayin'

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

Pilau Rice wrote:Sorcery and the use of psychic powers with the Thousand Sons is one and the same.

And that's where you're completely wrong. Sorcery by definition in 40K is making pacts with daemonic entities to fuel your powers. The only Thousand Sons that came close to meeting that definition were a small handful that had familiars.

They were told not to use any power, but they still continued to do so.

So did everybody else.

Where in A Thousand Sons does it say that Magnus ordered his troops to cease the use of their powers?

This point I may have to concede. My first exposure to A Thousand Sons was via audiobook format during a road-trip, and I could have sworn I remembered an exchange between Ahriman and Magnus regarding the judgement, but after flipping through the book I can't find the appropriate quote. The closest thing I can find is that Magnus had all of his warriors buried in libraries doing research since the moment they got back from Nikaea.

Omegus wrote:
And that's where you're completely wrong. Sorcery by definition in 40K is making pacts with daemonic entities to fuel your powers. The only Thousand Sons that came close to meeting that definition were a small handful that had familiars.

Fair enough and I admit my failing here. Sorcery was wrong but I was right about Psychic powers. It also doesn't change the fact that two massive events of Sorcery were carried out.

Maybe Ahriman and the others used their Tutelaries as a matter of course.

Omegus wrote:
So did everybody else.

But were any so brazen as the Sons, apart from the Wolves? It doesn't make the others ignoring the edict right either. The Ultramarines stuck to Nikaea, it's in, is it Oath of Moment, where the guy who joins Garro uses his power? I can imagine that Corax and Mortarion would have stuck to it, more out of the lack of psykers than anything though.

Omegus wrote:The closest thing I can find is that Magnus had all of his warriors buried in libraries doing research since the moment they got back from Nikaea.

I found that also, it's roughly around where Kallimakus is talking to Lemuel and advises him that being taught by Ahriman is against the ruling at Nikaea.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Sorcery and the use of psychic powers with the Thousand Sons is one and the same.

And that's where you're completely wrong. Sorcery by definition in 40K is making pacts with daemonic entities to fuel your powers. The only Thousand Sons that came close to meeting that definition were a small handful that had familiars.

Fair enough and I admit my failing here. Sorcery was wrong but I was right about Psychic powers. It also doesn't change the fact that two massive events of Sorcery were carried out.

Which they thought were the lesser of two evils at the time, knowing they would likely be damned for it.

They were told not to use any power, but they still continued to do so.

So did everybody else.

But were any so brazen as the Sons, apart from the Wolves? It doesn't make the others ignoring the edict right either. The Ultramarines stuck to Nikaea, it's in, is it Oath of Moment, where the guy who joins Garro uses his power? I can imagine that Corax and Mortarion would have stuck to it, more out of the lack of psykers than anything though.

Surely it's worse that one of the chapters that campaigned most vigourously against psychic powers continued to use them? The other legions never had noteworthy psykers to start with, so it wouldn't be as obvious whether they continued or not. Though Zahariel of the Dark Angels continued to use his powers.

Pilau Rice wrote:But were any so brazen as the Sons, apart from the Wolves? It doesn't make the others ignoring the edict right either. The Ultramarines stuck to Nikaea, it's in, is it Oath of Moment, where the guy who joins Garro uses his power? I can imagine that Corax and Mortarion would have stuck to it, more out of the lack of psykers than anything though.

Mortarion definitely, since he was one of the "prosecutors" at Nikaea in the first place. Ultramarines, not so sure. coughcodexastartescough

Durza wrote:
Which they thought were the lesser of two evils at the time, knowing they would likely be damned for it.

Ok, that's a given, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. But wouldn't they rather not be damned and have to fight the Space Wolfs and be regarded as traitors. Ahriman expressed his concerns at what they were doing, but Magnus 'knew' it was right to do it. Was it though?

Durza wrote:Surely it's worse that one of the chapters that campaigned most vigourously against psychic powers continued to use them? The other legions never had noteworthy psykers to start with, so it wouldn't be as obvious whether they continued or not. Though Zahariel of the Dark Angels continued to use his powers.

Yeah, it's hypocritical. But the Space Wolves were dense. It's nothing to do with the Warp it all comes from Fenris. But you aren't on Fenris ... LA LA LA LA I AM NOT LISTENING.

He was the Psyker stuck on Caliban wasn't he, so was he aware of Nikaea? The Lion hadn't been in contact with the Marines stuck behind for some time if I recall.

Omegus wrote:
Mortarion definitely, since he was one of the "prosecutors" at Nikaea in the first place. Ultramarines, not so sure. coughcodexastartescough

Fulgrim and Sanguinius were supposed to be on Magnus side, but who's side were they on, the one of not Magnus

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:Surely it's worse that one of the chapters that campaigned most vigourously against psychic powers continued to use them? The other legions never had noteworthy psykers to start with, so it wouldn't be as obvious whether they continued or not. Though Zahariel of the Dark Angels continued to use his powers.

Yeah, it's hypocritical. But the Space Wolves were dense. It's nothing to do with the Warp it all comes from Fenris. But you aren't on Fenris ... LA LA LA LA I AM NOT LISTENING.

He was the Psyker stuck on Caliban wasn't he, so was he aware of Nikaea? The Lion hadn't been in contact with the Marines stuck behind for some time if I recall.

They're still powers though, and Russ would've had to have known it was a violation of the Emperor's edict.

I'm not sure about Zahariel knowing about Nikea, but it seems likely he would.

Omegus wrote:
Mortarion definitely, since he was one of the "prosecutors" at Nikaea in the first place. Ultramarines, not so sure. coughcodexastartescough

Fulgrim and Sanguinius were supposed to be on Magnus side, but who's side were they on, the one of not Magnus

A good commander only fights when he can win. It was pretty obvious the Magnus was going to loose.

Durza wrote:
They're still powers though, and Russ would've had to have known it was a violation of the Emperor's edict.

He wasn't a feral barbarian all the time, so I reckon he did, he just pleaded ignorance. Even when Magnus pointed it out to him. Wyrds, wards and totems, not just for decoration.

Durza wrote:A good commander only fights when he can win. It was pretty obvious the Magnus was going to loose.

Nothing like stabbing your brother in the back is there, a lot of it goes on amongst the Primarchs

Would they have lost though if the majority had said actually we think it is a good idea, with guidelines

Durza wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

How does hesitating before confronting Horus makes him a poor warmaster? Heck the Emperor himself hesitated when he was confronting Horus. Does that make him a poor Emperor?
Gulliman and Fulgrim would have flaunted their alleged superiority over the others and many Primarchs wouldn't accept their authority because of that.
Dorn doesnt have much talent in negotiating with others, which is basically half of the duty of the Warmaster.
Pertuabo, oh god thats not even go there.

As Horus himself admitted, Sanguinius would have been better, since he is respected by most other primarchs.

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

How does hesitating before confronting Horus makes him a poor warmaster? Heck the Emperor himself hesitated when he was confronting Horus. Does that make him a poor Emperor?
Gulliman and Fulgrim would have flaunted their alleged superiority over the others and many Primarchs wouldn't accept their authority because of that.
Dorn doesnt have much talent in negotiating with others, which is basically half of the duty of the Warmaster.
Pertuabo, oh god thats not even go there.

As Horus himself admitted, Sanguinius would have been better, since he is respected by most other primarchs.

Horus, who at the time was poisoned and hallucinating.

Who did Fulgrim flaunt his superiority to?

Pertuabo wouldn't have needed to negotiate, because the enemy would know he could rip their defences apart. And he could just recognise that he comes off as heartless and get someone else to play diplomat for him. It's not as if Space Marine diplomacy is all that hard. "Surrender and join the Imperium in good will, or we'll kill you all and re populate your planet with people who will."

I think you should take a look at WWII and Allied command on the Western Front in Europe. Eisenhower was not the best battlefield general available, but he absolutely was the best choice for SCAEF. That's because the job of Supreme Commander (or Warmaster) is more about coordinating actions and cooperation between a whole bunch of Titan sized egos than it is about actually commanding troops in battle.

Durza wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

How does hesitating before confronting Horus makes him a poor warmaster? Heck the Emperor himself hesitated when he was confronting Horus. Does that make him a poor Emperor?
Gulliman and Fulgrim would have flaunted their alleged superiority over the others and many Primarchs wouldn't accept their authority because of that.
Dorn doesnt have much talent in negotiating with others, which is basically half of the duty of the Warmaster.
Pertuabo, oh god thats not even go there.

As Horus himself admitted, Sanguinius would have been better, since he is respected by most other primarchs.

Horus, who at the time was poisoned and hallucinating.

Who did Fulgrim flaunt his superiority to?

Pertuabo wouldn't have needed to negotiate, because the enemy would know he could rip their defences apart. And he could just recognise that he comes off as heartless and get someone else to play diplomat for him. It's not as if Space Marine diplomacy is all that hard. "Surrender and join the Imperium in good will, or we'll kill you all and re populate your planet with people who will."

Other legions certainly thinks he and his legions flaunts their superiority everytime they can.
Fulgrim was also a poor judge of character, putting someone like Eidolon in charge?
And Heresy would have probably happened if Fulgrim is the warmaster, he would have been possessed by that daemon sword anyway.

And being warmaster, diplomacy is not just with your enemies, but also with other legions and the administrations of Terra, which Pertuabo would fail at.

Again, which legions and when. And Fulgrim isn't the only one who promoted someone with the potential to fall. Eidolon was good at what he did. There was no reason for him not to be in charge, since the Emperor was smart enough to know that telling his sons about the biggest threat they would ever face was a bad idea.

As long as the Word Bearers were out there mucking around, the Heresy would have happened in some form. Remember that not only were they the first Legion to turn to Chaos, they were the first to turn by decades. And it's not just that they turned from the Emperor to Chaos, they had actively been looking for someone other than the Emperor to follow for decades before that. They wanted to believe, follow and worship something greater than themselves so badly that if Chaos hadn't existed, they'd have just ended up on the side of the Tyranids or C'Tan/Necrons. Those are kind of crappy substitutions for the Dark Gods, but they are impressive enough that those spamheads would probably have fallen for them.

Durza wrote:Again, which legions and when. And Fulgrim isn't the only one who promoted someone with the potential to fall. Eidolon was good at what he did. There was no reason for him not to be in charge, since the Emperor was smart enough to know that telling his sons about the biggest threat they would ever face was a bad idea.

Iron Hands, the closest legions to them, Fulgrim apparently feel slighted by being rescued, for it suggest that he actually made a mistake.
Luna Wolves, not Fulgrim himself, but Eidolon acted all high and mighty despite the fact Tarik just saved their asses.
Horus himself thought to reprimand Fulgrim for his legion's attitude, but Sanguinius persuaded him not to.
Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

What was Eidolon good at doing? Telling his men to go on suicide missions then claim all the credits to himself?

>Implying this wasn't the Emperor's plan from the beginning.

Come on, the Emprah isn't slowed, he knew all this stuff would happen, he's that bloody powerful. The only thing he couldn't see was who would win the fight between he and Horus, and even then Big E had an "I Win" button just in case things didn't go well, which of course he used. The Emperor's plan was probably to ascend to godhood at some point anyways, since even IF he managed to conquer the Webway and kill all the Eldar the warp would still be around. Him being on the Throne for 10,000 years getting fed psyker souls is probably just Plan B, though he most likely wasn't looking forward to it.

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:Again, which legions and when. And Fulgrim isn't the only one who promoted someone with the potential to fall. Eidolon was good at what he did. There was no reason for him not to be in charge, since the Emperor was smart enough to know that telling his sons about the biggest threat they would ever face was a bad idea.

Iron Hands, the closest legions to them, Fulgrim apparently feel slighted by being rescued, for it suggest that he actually made a mistake.

Yeah, them daemons do mess people up a bit.

Luna Wolves, not Fulgrim himself, but Eidolon acted all high and mighty despite the fact Tarik just saved their asses.

Yes, Eidolon is annoying, but that's one person.

Horus himself thought to reprimand Fulgrim for his legion's attitude, but Sanguinius persuaded him not to.

Maybe because Sanguinius thought it might be a bit insulting to tell him that one of his commanders is a childish baby? Any of them would've been annoyed about it, but Fulgrim would've probably acted on it.

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.

What was Eidolon good at doing? Telling his men to go on suicide missions then claim all the credits to himself?

Personal combat. He was self obsessed, but he must have been good at something to get promoted. And Fulgrim wasn't the only primarch to promote someone like him anyway.

Eidolon wasn't just one man. He was a Lord Commander, that out-ranked the other Lord Commander. Literally, he was the highest ranking Astartes in the Emperor's Children.

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

You know I thought about this question in the OP again and decided to look at things another way. There was no way the rebellion wasn't going to happen. Simply because of the visions Horus received about what the held. Each one was what happened when Horus rebelled and lost possibly implying the Gods could see what was to come, but not what might come to pass like the Eldar farseers and the cabal claimed to have been able to.
From the scattering of the Primarchs (perhaps to not so random places ), to laying the trap of "salvation" for Magnus to use for his Legions to the Chaos Gods being able to prophesise Lorgars arrival on Cadia... With all the planning the powers did in order to have these events turn their way it would seem Chaos actually got exactly what they wanted .

So them IF the Emperor is indeed the end all be all of foresight, surely on that narrow road Humanity's path would have to take to survive in the galaxy, he would have seen that warp powered superbeings were a bad idea mmmmkay Or does the long game have a longer game, like this is the fire what shall temper the sword of humanity to take their brand of speciesism to the stars and make sure no other species exists. (Barring orks unless they get some really good weedkiller).

The single thing that would have prevented all of this is simply if the emperor had never been "born".

Either he was:

1. A complete and total blind fool who happened to have some neato powers; or,

2. He orchestrated the whole thing to become a warp god.

Either way, the Emperor himself has been the danger to humanity.

There's really no other way to describe it. Either he completely failed at keeping 21 primarchs (Alpharius you know..) together on his path, or he has thus far succeeded by both throwing humanity into a never ending war and creating a massive religion around him.

At this point I think the jury is still out; however, there are numerous hints that everything happened as he wanted it to: Blood to keep Khorne sated, intrigue to blind Tzeentch, disaster and a rotting imperium for Nurgle, and more dead Eldar to feed Slaanesh.

Basically, keep Chaosoccupied until enough of humanity worships Him and his Throne finally fails allowing for his release back into the warp as it's conqueror.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:What are some things(especially small things) that could of been done to prevent the Horus Heresy?

Not having primarchs in the first place.

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

Exactly. They made all the big moves. Definite Warmaster material.

clively wrote:The single thing that would have prevented all of this is simply if the emperor had never been "born".

Either he was:

1. A complete and total blind fool who happened to have some neato powers; or,

2. He orchestrated the whole thing to become a warp god.

Either way, the Emperor himself has been the danger to humanity.

There's really no other way to describe it. Either he completely failed at keeping 21 primarchs (Alpharius you know..) together on his path, or he has thus far succeeded by both throwing humanity into a never ending war and creating a massive religion around him.

At this point I think the jury is still out; however, there are numerous hints that everything happened as he wanted it to: Blood to keep Khorne sated, intrigue to blind Tzeentch, disaster and a rotting imperium for Nurgle, and more dead Eldar to feed Slaanesh.

Basically, keep Chaosoccupied until enough of humanity worships Him and his Throne finally fails allowing for his release back into the warp as it's conqueror.

... Thanks to Him humanity survived at least another 10,000 years and still have a fairly powerful galactic empire.
There wouldn't have been any heresy without Him but there would also be no Imperium and the scattered remains of humanity would slowly die out, even those that survive the Age of Strife would still be eaten by the nids or killed by the necrons without a fight when they came around.

Durza wrote:Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.

Saul Tarvitz was repeatedly stated to be a rare exception among the haughty ranks of the Emperor's Children, and was essentially ostracized by the other commanders for his lack of a pompous attitude.

Pilau Rice wrote:It's out on the Black Library site and our local GW had it's Birthday, I picked up Deliverance Lost as well

Ah, I see. Unfortunately pressed for funds, so I can not get it.

They are his generals to wage war across the stars, with the Webway complete he wouldn't need to rely on them so much, if at all. The Emperor would be able to send his troops through the gateway himself. He managed with the Primarchs well enough in the early days of the Great Crusade. That's what I think anyhoo. And that's kinda what I am saying if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs that they weren't going to be waging war anymore, that they would be playing scrabble and baking cakes, then they would be a bit miffed and yeah, justified. The Emperor creates tools that he can throw away when he doesn't need them anymore. His main concern is for humankind.

So... Their fears that they would be rendered obsolete were justified then? Welp, that's not speaking very well in the Emperor's defense, if he really did consider the Primarchs tools to be discarded when no longer useful.

When Horus is having a breakdown he says that being the Warmaster is too much and that he can't read men like the Lion or something like that. I'll find the page and update later.

Where? Are you referring to his short breakdown when gak with the Interex goes south? Just read it and the Lion was not mentioned once.

I'll have a refresh later, but what you've said is along the same lines as what I have said. The Emperor got angry at Angron.

Yeah man, how unreasonable of Angron, not abandoning those he considers family to die.

Not at all. I'm just reiterating the point that they didn't stop using their powers. Sorcery probably was the wrong term in reference to the use of their powers, but the two major incantations performed by Magnus with aid of his Sons were major use of Sorcery. He had good intentions, fair enough, but he still chose to ignore all that the Emperor said, after the first one where he contacted Horus, perhaps he should have thought to use an Astropath? I know he dismisses it as unreliable but the outcome would have been better for him and Terra. With Amon and Ankhu Anen, we don't know what they did to try and discern what Magnus was doing, maybe they had the assistance of their Tutelaries.

Oh no doubt, Magnus did use sorcery to contact Horus and the Emperor, at the very least it resembled sorcery and would not help his case. I would not argue against Magnus being arrogant and believing he knew better than the Emperor. I personally believe he wanted to validate his beliefs to the Emperor, showing the good they can do, but that kind of backfired when he accidently ruined the Webway. But honestly, before the Council of Nikaea, the Thousand Sons were hardly dangerous sorcerers, the few using Tutelaries being largely in control of them (This being their only shown use of sorcery as well), until Tzeentch decided their powers were waaaaay too stable for his tastes.

The Emperor just sticking with his Sensei children instead of making other behemoths capable of killing him.

Some sort of civil war was bound to happen. It may or may not have already happened with the two "unmentionable" Legions depending on how you want to interpret all those little hints. The Night Lords seemed bound for some sort of break with the Imperium, for example. The World Eaters and Angrons practices would have lead them to Chaos (or a break with the Imperium) as well. I suspect Perturabo and the Iron Warriors would have done so as well. And given how McNeill structured the Thousand Sons, they were doomed to be pawns of Chaos in the future and probably would have had to flee the Imperium or be hunted down (if Magnus hadn't done what he'd done to breach Terra's wards, he probably would have done something else.)
And the Word Bearers want gods to worship, and there is no way to dissuade them.

However, without Horus, any civil war would not have been even remotely as effective - Horus was a focal point - the only person in the Imperium as charasmatic and popular as the Emperor - the only one who could have truly divided it the way it was. Had he stayed loyal, its likely that many of the 'traitor' chapters would have also. The Alpha Legion may or may not have (depends on how you feel about the Cabal and all that.) I am pretty sure the Emperor's Children would have (mostly) stayed loyal, Fulgrim got possessed by a daemon after all. And as dour as Mortrarion was (and however much he may have hated the Emperor) he never actually seemed like he was prone to betraying the Imperium - he only "turned" when Nurgle pulled his little trick.

But even if the Emperor's Children and Death Guard turned, and even the Alpha Legion, Horus' Legion would still be with the loyalists, and more importantly so would Horus. Noone could have unified the Traitors, or encouraged so many planets to defect to the side of Chaos. What's more, Isstvaan woudl not have happened, which means in turn that even the "Traitor" Legions would likely have had their loyalists remain loyal and they wouldn't be wiped out. Nor would the Drop Site Massacre happen.

Connor MacLeod wrote:And as dour as Mortrarion was (and however much he may have hated the Emperor) he never actually seemed like he was prone to betraying the Imperium - he only "turned" when Nurgle pulled his little trick.

Nurgle did that when the Death Guard were terrabound, at Istvaan they weren't touched by them yet still participated. We haven't really seen much of Mortarions reasoning for siding with Horus yet, shall be interesting to see his motivations. It may simply have been akin to Horus and Lorgar, the company he kept influencing him as it's mentioned Erebus had already showed Typhon the way to Chaos through the Lodges and Mortarion supported the idea of the Lodges, possibly bitterness as suggested in the scene where Mortarion and Garro are on their way to the Warmasters ship before Istvaan 3.

NOTHING

This is The Emperor's whole plan


he is the ultimate troll, he is just messing around with everything. He is a Chaos God, he became one when "MANY" phychers killed themselves and then billions of souls worshiped him. He is getting off that throne soon, and he is gonna LOL, HARD.

Void__Dragon wrote:
So... Their fears that they would be rendered obsolete were justified then? Welp, that's not speaking very well in the Emperor's defense, if he really did consider the Primarchs tools to be discarded when no longer useful.

Indeed, so him not telling the Primarchs was best choice for him at the time. It's only a theory so maybe he did have intentions for the Primarchs and was going to keep using them, well, we know that Magnus was going to be used as massive battery but you know what I mean.

Void__Dragon wrote:Where? Are you referring to his short breakdown when gak with the Interex goes south? Just read it and the Lion was not mentioned once.

I didn't get a chance as I was browsing through Tales of Heresy, this will be my next stop though. I know it's there somewhere as I made a list of things that aren't consistent or made me think about another instance of other things in other books. Lokens hair, the Anathame, Lupercal, stuff like that.

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah man, how unreasonable of Angron, not abandoning those he considers family to die.

Come on, I'm not saying that at all, just trying to put a bit of perspective into possibly what happened

Ok, so here's what happens. The battle appears to be going on as the Emperor arrives. The Emperor and his bodyguards fight towards Angron killing some High Riders. Emperor tries to talk to Angron who isn't being very talkative. Angron kills a Custodes. The Emperor Teleports back to his ship and Angron to the War Hounds vessel. So we wer're both right in a way, but only half. The Emperor did abduct Angron and it was after he killed a Custodes.

Maybe the battle was nearly over, maybe it was the Emperors only choice to save Angron? If the Emperor had arrived sooner perhaps he could and would have assisted Angron in his battle but it was already to late. For the Emperor to arrive in the middle of a battle and slay some High Riders just to get to Angron says something of the urgency. Whether that's it we won't know unless they go further into Angron, which I hope they do.

Void__Dragon wrote:But honestly, before the Council of Nikaea, the Thousand Sons were hardly dangerous sorcerers, the few using Tutelaries being largely in control of them (This being their only shown use of sorcery as well), until Tzeentch decided their powers were waaaaay too stable for his tastes.

Or at least until Tzeentch decided it was time to cash in his cheque with Magnus.

Durza wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

Exactly. They made all the big moves. Definite Warmaster material.

What did he actually do that shows he would make a great Warmaster?

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

Exactly. They made all the big moves. Definite Warmaster material.

What did he actually do that shows he would make a great Warmaster?

He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

Jackster wrote:
What did he actually do that shows he would make a great Warmaster?

Cause agro amongst his brothers, he was better than Horus at that

Connor MacLeod wrote:Some sort of civil war was bound to happen. It may or may not have already happened with the two "unmentionable" Legions depending on how you want to interpret all those little hints. The Night Lords seemed bound for some sort of break with the Imperium, for example.

The Night Lords had "broken" with the Imperium well before the Heresy. The Night Haunter almost beat Dorn to death, was scheduled to be taken to Terra for trial (and probable sanction of his whole Legion), so he killed all the Custodes and other Astartes guarding him and took off for the far reaches of space.


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iproxtaco wrote:
He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

Until they said something he didn't like, and he started murdering them wholesale.

iproxtaco wrote:He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

The Laer campaign is there to show the bad aspects of Fulgrim's personality and his obsession with perfection.

1. The final battle is over complicated, and relies on everyone hitting their targets at exactly the right time. This doesn't happen and the battle goes pear shaped for a little while.
2. The entire timeline of the campaign is over ambitious, and it is specifically mentioned in the book that the agressive timeline leads to excessive casualities among legion forces.

I mean, nice job on Fulgrim for pulling it off, but it's really to show how his persuit of perfection can lead to situations that are anything but perfect. Also too, that meshes nicely with the theme from A Thousand Sons, where Magnus' persuit of knowledge and control over the warp leads to him being unknowingly being used as a tool by the warp.

daveNYC wrote:As long as the Word Bearers were out there mucking around, the Heresy would have happened in some form. Remember that not only were they the first Legion to turn to Chaos, they were the first to turn by decades. And it's not just that they turned from the Emperor to Chaos, they had actively been looking for someone other than the Emperor to follow for decades before that. They wanted to believe, follow and worship something greater than themselves so badly that if Chaos hadn't existed, they'd have just ended up on the side of the Tyranids or C'Tan/Necrons. Those are kind of crappy substitutions for the Dark Gods, but they are impressive enough that those spamheads would probably have fallen for them.

*insert joke about religion here*

OMAHBAD was it wrong of me to compare raving lunatics to contemporary believers in certain religions? trololol

daveNYC wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

The Laer campaign is there to show the bad aspects of Fulgrim's personality and his obsession with perfection.

1. The final battle is over complicated, and relies on everyone hitting their targets at exactly the right time. This doesn't happen and the battle goes pear shaped for a little while.
2. The entire timeline of the campaign is over ambitious, and it is specifically mentioned in the book that the agressive timeline leads to excessive casualities among legion forces.

I mean, nice job on Fulgrim for pulling it off, but it's really to show how his persuit of perfection can lead to situations that are anything but perfect. Also too, that meshes nicely with the theme from A Thousand Sons, where Magnus' persuit of knowledge and control over the warp leads to him being unknowingly being used as a tool by the warp.

Agreed, although when asked, those are the only two that I could think of, and Fulgrim has an entire book dedicated to him and his Legion that could have showed other events. He was far from an ideal candidate, what you've described is his greatest weakness, that led to arrogance without any sort of modesty. The pinnacle of what the Emperor's Children sought to achieve was in Saul Tarvitz, and it wasn't just because he was loyal to the end.

In legion it talks about the fall of the alpha legion,and what the farseers saw in the future. Without the aid of alpha legion there would have been no drop site massacre (which if I undrstand right was devised by alpharius) with out that the traitor legions would have never had the edge and the destruction of horizon would have happened there not after he fought the emporer. I pin the entire heresy though on the eldar... If not for them there would be no salaanesh and thus only three chaos gods and those three wouldn't have swayed the emporers children then numbers would go back to the loyalists.

gh05tdemon wrote:Without the aid of alpha legion there would have been no drop site massacre (which if I undrstand right was devised by alpharius)

It is suggested in the Index Astartes article on the Alpha Legion if I recall correctly. It was not necessarily his idea, and even if it was, it does not necessarily follow that someone else would not have come up with a similar plan (it wasn't exactly complicated, afterall).

On the subject of Cruze though, if he and his legion were to get to terra to have their wrists slapped then why were they allowed to partake in Istvaan?

Also wasn't the whole root of his problem seeing that the Imperium wouldn't last because of the heresy in his visions?

Vermillion wrote:On the subject of Cruze though, if he and his legion were to get to terra to have their wrists slapped then why were they allowed to partake in Istvaan?

Also wasn't the whole root of his problem seeing that the Imperium wouldn't last because of the heresy in his visions?

Apparently reasons were given for the Night Lords presence at Istvaan in The Outcast Dead, a new Horus Heresy book if you weren't aware.

iproxtaco wrote:

Vermillion wrote:On the subject of Cruze though, if he and his legion were to get to terra to have their wrists slapped then why were they allowed to partake in Istvaan?

Also wasn't the whole root of his problem seeing that the Imperium wouldn't last because of the heresy in his visions?

Apparently reasons were given for the Night Lords presence at Istvaan in The Outcast Dead, a new Horus Heresy book if you weren't aware.

Aye waiting till 11 November for Play.com to be getting them. At half the price I'm not going to complain . Wasn't aware the reasons were in there, been trying to avoid anything about the book till I get it, but this makes me more curious.

Stark reminder to a lot of you all to ensure your newly borned are actually breast fed...........bad things happen later in life when bottles are used.

The Thousand Sons Tutelaries summed up their existance and future fates. At the battle of Prospero as soon as the Thousand Sons let their guards down, the Tutelaries tapped the power on their own and rebelled possesing those that werent of a high level.

The Thousand Sons thought they controlled the daemons but there were letting them think that, just waiting for their chance, as was Tzeentch and his bargain with Magnus.

So the Sons were doomed one way or another when Magnus made his pact.

We have talked about the Emperor having his eyes of the ball. But what about Valdor, Malcador and there Assassins and spy networks why didnt they pick up the rumblings of discontent. Or perhaps they did and let it happen!