Ok so what are the undisputed worst units in the game? my friend and i were trying to come up with the worst one for each slot

So far we got this:

HQ: Aun'va, ethereals in general

Troops: Summoned Lesser Daemons (CSM)

Elites: Mandrakes/Pyrovore

Fast Attack: Furies

Heavy Support: Flash Gitz

Dedicated Transports: Standard SM Rhino

Awful Bonus: Chaos Spawn
Any ideas for the others?

Apoc. Unit:

These are not definate and are up for debate, i will change them as worse ones are unearthed

That-which-shall-not-be-named...


Chaos Sp-.... Nope.. can't say it..

Elites: Dark Eldar Mandrakes

Heavy Support: Flash Gitz

Also, Ravagers are very close to being the best thing ever.

Oh, and shouldnt there be a Dedicated Transports category as well?

Agreeable, the spawn are diabolical but they do not fit into any particular category, they can have their own section


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah i guess there should be a dedicated transports category, good idea

Troops: Penal Legion? I personally like them but there seems to be a lot of hate, the no special/heavy weapons, random bonus which can be pretty useless (woo, assault 2 lasguns). And they are 80 points

Yeah they are pretty awful, anyone come up with any worse?

And dedicated transports...vanilla SM rhino? or ork trukk? They are beaten out by chimeras, razorbacks, landraiders, raiders (I think).

Rhino is cheap and all, but it has only 2 firepoints and no real shooting, outclassed by chimera (shooting and more fire points), razorback (more shooting), landraider (cos its a mofo landraider), and raiders (zippy, open topped)

Unless you want to say devilfish as a dedicated transport for pathfinders, can we be that specific? You are not allowed to take your sneaky scouting unit without a big clunky transport which would be better used elsewhere?

Penal legion can outflank, and can gain rending, assault lasguns, and something else. That's pretty decent. Oh they have an armor save. FAR better than KROOT.

HQ: any ethereal

Elite: nercon flayed ones are probably the worst, tied with pyrovores

Troops: Kroot

Fast attack: I want to say furies from chaos demons are

Heavy: Flash gits, tied with biovores

So are chaos spawn.

Good point about the rhino, but the devilfish does have that nice ability to redeem itself.

But kroot are cheaper, have more variety in their options, have a good coversave in woods, can outflank too.

The rending is reliant on you getting just the right roll on a D6 before a game, the outflank kroot have, the armour save issue can be fixed by finding them cover, more attacks, I just cant see how kroot are worse overall.

Spawn are listed as Fast Attack for some reason... and for troops, I'd say the daemons the Chaos Marines can summon.

I'm very very new to chaos, so can someone explain the hate for summoned lesser daemons? At a glance they look fine to me?

Kroot are pretty darn good for tau. Definitely not the worst troop choice. They do their part well as a speed bump and die in one turn so you can shoot at whoever assaulted them in the following turn.

hemlighest wrote:I'm very very new to chaos, so can someone explain the hate for summoned lesser daemons? At a glance they look fine to me?

The hate for summoned lesser daemons stems from the fact that they used to be so much better.

motyak wrote:But kroot are cheaper, have more variety in their options, have a good coversave in woods, can outflank too.

Kroot are 10 points cheaper for the same amount of guys, and they don't have a 5+ save, or any at all, no stubborn (great for a speedbump), penal guys can outflank.

The only difference is the kroot get a better coversave in woods. If your looking for a shooting unit, the penal guys are better. If your looking for an assault unit... the penal guys are STILL better.

ceku wrote:Kroot are pretty darn good for tau. Definitely not the worst troop choice. They do their part well as a speed bump and die in one turn so you can shoot at whoever assaulted them in the following turn.

They are a good speed bump for tau, but compare them to the rest of the games troops choices. That's the question. They terrible.

juraigamer wrote:

motyak wrote:But kroot are cheaper, have more variety in their options, have a good coversave in woods, can outflank too.

Kroot are 10 points cheaper for the same amount of guys, and they don't have a 5+ save, or any at all, no stubborn (great for a speedbump), penal guys can outflank.

The only difference is the kroot get a better coversave in woods. If your looking for a shooting unit, the penal guys are better. If your looking for an assault unit... the penal guys are STILL better.

As imp guard, I cannot think of many cases you WANT a unit to stick around in combat. And kroot can outflank too, I don't see how that is a point against them.

ceku wrote:Kroot are pretty darn good for tau. Definitely not the worst troop choice. They do their part well as a speed bump and die in one turn so you can shoot at whoever assaulted them in the following turn.

They are a good speed bump for tau, but compare them to the rest of the games troops choices. That's the question. They terrible.

For troop tyranid rippers fast attack sky slashers (rippers with wings) they suck

HQ: Ethereals/Techpriest or Techmarine

Elites: Ratlings/Pariahs

Troops: Death Company/Penal Legion

Fast Attack: Furies/ Attack bikes

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Punisher (and most of the variants in general)/ Flash Gitz/ Deathstrike missile

Dedicated Transport: Rhino

Ogryn.

I still run them though.

At OP:
Summoned lesser daemons are actually a very good reserve unit. They're not amazing and I wouldn't build an army around them, but they're very useful in the right situation. Also, rhinos? Really? They're very good.

Also please don't use that awful facepalm emote like it's punctuation.

lesser Daemons are actually really nice units in certain situations, especially in CC, as they can be summoned then charge in the same turn, so they can definitely turn the tide in a game if your opponent doesn't remember them, and you can get a jump on them ( lord with icon in a rhino up front). Plus they are a troop choice, and for objective games, that can make a huge difference.

true dat

To Juraigamer:

You can't compare kroot to other troop choices by stats and ability alone. You have to judge units by their usefulness in the context of their codex otherwise it makes no sense to say one unit is the worst but is actually quite useful in that certain codex.

I actually like flash gitz. Though they shouldn't be in the heavy support slot. OK, they are expensive, but I've used them successfully on a few occasions.

Why all the rhino hate? I dont play codex Marines, so I dont have much experience with them. Obviously they dont have guns, but they're pretty damn cheap.

Kroot are pretty bad. Even as a "Speed-bump" *cringe* I haven't really seen them prove much worth. Also it's a bad idea to field them only for that +3 coversave, as who knows if the battlefield will conatin woods/jungle?

I'd also like to say the Devilfish is a pretty bad transport compared to the rest. It may be a brick to shoot at from a distance but it lacks punch (also does the warfish), and all those non D-pod upgrades, including seeker missiles, can be quite a point sink.

HQ: Ethereals from Tau and Big Mek with Nothing from Orks. No Shock Attack gun or the KFF. Just Big Mek. Even in a Vehicle list. He is 100% useless.

Elite Not sure. Never seen a "bad" Elite before. I would have to say Dreadnought if anything. Even with good weapons they suck hard core and get destroyed fast without getting back their points at all.

Troops Kroot are almost useless but for its army its OK. I might have to say Death Company is stupidest!

Fast Attack Land Speeders and War Buggies and that Tau Pariah equivalent are hands down the worst units in the game. The weapons are lame, They can to easily be destroyed and are Extremely limited in quantity. So lack of Quantity and Lack of Quality in Stats, Weapons, and they are just down right useless because of the other options in all codex that outshine them in every aspect of what they could do and what "you SHOULD be doing"

Heavy Support Flash Gits, I wanna use them at some point but Even I have to say that their cost needs to be reduced by a lot. Especially the upgrades that need to be reduced by 70% in order to make them good enough to be competitive enough to ever see the board ever again.

Look at the above poster. Look how gloriously wrong he is.

HQ- Etheral

Elite- Ogryns

Troops - hmmm...well.. uhh.. they all count as scoring so I can't hate

Field Gen wrote:HQ: Ethereals from Tau and Big Mek with Nothing from Orks. No Shock Attack gun or the KFF. Just Big Mek. Even in a Vehicle list. He is 100% useless.

Elite Not sure. Never seen a "bad" Elite before. I would have to say Dreadnought if anything. Even with good weapons they suck hard core and get destroyed fast without getting back their points at all.

Troops Kroot are almost useless but for its army its OK. I might have to say Death Company is stupidest!

Fast Attack Land Speeders and War Buggies and that Tau Pariah equivalent are hands down the worst units in the game. The weapons are lame, They can to easily be destroyed and are Extremely limited in quantity. So lack of Quantity and Lack of Quality in Stats, Weapons, and they are just down right useless because of the other options in all codex that outshine them in every aspect of what they could do and what "you SHOULD be doing"

Heavy Support Flash Gits, I wanna use them at some point but Even I have to say that their cost needs to be reduced by a lot. Especially the upgrades that need to be reduced by 70% in order to make them good enough to be competitive enough to ever see the board ever again.

Lots and lots of wrong here.

- Why would you ever take a Big Mek with no equipment? Why? For the love of god why? That's like saying IG veterans are the worst troops in the game without meltaguns, or that a Space Marine captain with no equipment is terrible, therefore Space Marine captains are worthless.

- Dreadnoughts are awesome and the cornerstone of plenty of Marine, Blood Angel, and Grey Knight lists. Bad Elites would be Ogryn and Stormtroopers, who frankly are just a bit overcosted and not worthless.

- Death Company aren't scoring but are deadly as sin. Kroot are basically Ork Boyz and are marginally more useful than Fire Warriors in many situations. IG conscripts are actually the most useless troops choice in the game since for only 1 more point you get better stats and access to heavy/special weapons and commissars with regular IG platoons.

- What the hell are you talking about? You're high right now aren't you. These vehicles have meltas or rockets, and can move fast enough to get in close and hit side armor. They're all fragile, but they're fast. They were never meant to take a beating.

- Your line on Flash Gits is the only thing keeping me from thinking you're just a bad troll.

Retinue: SM servitor

The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

Attack bikes are bad? Excuse me? MM Attack bikes are wonderfully durable, very fast and deliver a good clean MM shot where you need it. And, if needs be, you can tie up weaker units as its still a T4/5 marine with 2 wounds.

Possessed are fething awful, agreed.

Lucius the eternal is a terrible HQ, but not as bad as Aun'va - nothing is.

Hormagaunts are a fairly bad troops choice - slower than they used to be and dont unlock anything useful, like troops choice tervigon.

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

What do you think went through Thorpe's head when the rules were made? One stupidly simple change and they'd be at least viable as a choice.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

What do you think went through Thorpe's head when the rules were made? One stupidly simple change and they'd be at least viable as a choice.

I think it probably went something along the lines of 'Chaos is random, so possessed should be random, but if I give them good random abilities, the Imperial fanboys will get annoyed, and if I give them upgrades, the randomness will be diluted.' Then his head exploded from trying to balance randomness and the only notes they found were the planned points cost and a rough sketch of what not to use as abilities. Unfortunately, it was the last incomplete entry, so they stuck the codex together and sold it. Oh, then they made a clone of him so no one would ever know.

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

What do you think went through Thorpe's head when the rules were made? One stupidly simple change and they'd be at least viable as a choice.

I think it probably went something along the lines of 'Chaos is random, so possessed should be random, but if I give them good random abilities, the Imperial fanboys will get annoyed, and if I give them upgrades, the randomness will be diluted.' Then his head exploded from trying to balance randomness and the only notes they found were the planned points cost and a rough sketch of what not to use as abilities. Unfortunately, it was the last incomplete entry, so they stuck the codex together and sold it. Oh, then they made a clone of him so no one would ever know.

Sounds plausible. Although it begs the question; shouldn't GW be spending money on new Design studio members that can make me an Adeptus Mechanicus codex rather than using the money on expensive cloning techniques?

im going to defend the humble trukk here:

if you get a penetrating 6 with a melta cannon on it from a warlord titan, it could zip forwards INTO the enemy lines and then blow up!

they may suck by themselves, but they are fast, cheap, and you can use powerklaw armed nobs on enemy vehicles without disembarking!!
(you dont have to wait a turn for a charge move)

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

What do you think went through Thorpe's head when the rules were made? One stupidly simple change and they'd be at least viable as a choice.

I think it probably went something along the lines of 'Chaos is random, so possessed should be random, but if I give them good random abilities, the Imperial fanboys will get annoyed, and if I give them upgrades, the randomness will be diluted.' Then his head exploded from trying to balance randomness and the only notes they found were the planned points cost and a rough sketch of what not to use as abilities. Unfortunately, it was the last incomplete entry, so they stuck the codex together and sold it. Oh, then they made a clone of him so no one would ever know.

Sounds plausible. Although it begs the question; shouldn't GW be spending money on new Design studio members that can make me an Adeptus Mechanicus codex rather than using the money on expensive cloning techniques?

It was an experiment. Soon they shall have a Matt Ward for every codex, with new editions coming out monthly. It's all part of their master plan to alienate their consumer base.

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

What do you think went through Thorpe's head when the rules were made? One stupidly simple change and they'd be at least viable as a choice.

I think it probably went something along the lines of 'Chaos is random, so possessed should be random, but if I give them good random abilities, the Imperial fanboys will get annoyed, and if I give them upgrades, the randomness will be diluted.' Then his head exploded from trying to balance randomness and the only notes they found were the planned points cost and a rough sketch of what not to use as abilities. Unfortunately, it was the last incomplete entry, so they stuck the codex together and sold it. Oh, then they made a clone of him so no one would ever know.

Sounds plausible. Although it begs the question; shouldn't GW be spending money on new Design studio members that can make me an Adeptus Mechanicus codex rather than using the money on expensive cloning techniques?

It was an experiment. Soon they shall have a Matt Ward for every codex, with new editions coming out monthly. It's all part of their master plan to alienate their consumer base.

Oh god the horror. Not my beloved Chaos Codex, please

iproxtaco wrote:Oh god the horror. Not my beloved Chaos Codex, please

I can only hope that's sarcasm or you're talking about 3rd ed...

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh god the horror. Not my beloved Chaos Codex, please

I can only hope that's sarcasm or you're talking about 3rd ed...

If what you said is a prediction of the future, I don't want Mat Ward even having a hand in by beloved Chaos Legions Codex.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh god the horror. Not my beloved Chaos Codex, please

I can only hope that's sarcasm or you're talking about 3rd ed...

If what you said is a prediction of the future, I don't want Mat Ward even having a hand in by beloved Chaos Legions Codex.

Hell, give him the rules, but burn any attempt he makes at fluff, hire an editor so it all makes sense and then get a decent writer to do a bit of background. It couldn't be any worse than the current one, right?... right?

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

Followed closely by Dark Angels scouts.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

What do you think went through Thorpe's head when the rules were made? One stupidly simple change and they'd be at least viable as a choice.

To be fair, Alessio also did a large part of the rules design, and the unit isn't *that* bad, it's not good, but there are far worse units out there, it's just that they're abilities aren't really something you can use to make a battle plan around and Terminators do the job better.

It's not like they're Ogryn or Spawn bad. They're simply mediocre and anything you'd use them for Terminators or basic CSM's can do better for the points.

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

What do you think went through Thorpe's head when the rules were made? One stupidly simple change and they'd be at least viable as a choice.

To be fair, Alessio also did a large part of the rules design, and the unit isn't *that* bad, it's not good, but there are far worse units out there, it's just that they're abilities aren't really something you can use to make a battle plan around and Terminators do the job better.

It's not like they're Ogryn or Spawn bad. They're simply mediocre and anything you'd use them for Terminators or basic CSM's can do better for the points.

I don't think they're horribly bad, I still run them in some lists mainly for fluff reasons and they aren't complete failures. It just irks me that they aren't that viable, but they could be with such a simple change to their rules, so it makes me wonder why the hell the design team didn't choose the other option.

DAaddict wrote:

Durza wrote:The worst elites in my opinion would be Possessed Marines.

Followed closely by Dark Angels scouts.

Who are honestly just terrible because they take up an elites slot. As troops they'd be okay, but not great. As elites there's too many good options to waste your time on them.

It pains me to say this - it REALLY does.

Wraithlords. I love em, but in this arena of nasty MC's (Trygons + Dreadknights), they just don't match up. With no invun, and only 3 wounds, some concentrated krak missiles can just end their day. Not that my wraithguard army leaves home without them much!!!!

Lets see...
HQ - Ethereal of all kind
Elite - Pyrovore, Beast of Nurgle or Possessed
Troop - This one is hard... Rippers?
Fast Attack - Vespids, Chaos Spawn
Heavy - Flash Gitz
Transport: Immolator? Honestly this one is hard since transports are so important in 5th.

Worst transport (in the context of comparison to other transports) has to be either Wave Serpents or Devilfish. Both are expensive without enough protection or oomph to justify it when compared to stuff like Rhinos or Venoms.

They're not bad, per se. Just not much bang for your buck compared to their peers.

Why the mandrake hate? Is it just the no shooting until gained a kill or something else? I have 10...

kitch102 wrote:Why the mandrake hate? Is it just the no shooting until gained a kill or something else? I have 10...

Not good at assault and as you said, cant shoot till you get a pain token.
That and they are in the same slot with Incubi and Trueborn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hormagaunts are a fairly bad troops choice - slower than they used to be and dont unlock anything useful, like troops choice tervigon.

Yes, but they are dirt cheap, make good shields, and look awesome!

Field Gen wrote:HQ: Ethereals from Tau and Big Mek with Nothing from Orks. No Shock Attack gun or the KFF. Just Big Mek. Even in a Vehicle list. He is 100% useless.

Elite Not sure. Never seen a "bad" Elite before. I would have to say Dreadnought if anything. Even with good weapons they suck hard core and get destroyed fast without getting back their points at all.

Troops Kroot are almost useless but for its army its OK. I might have to say Death Company is stupidest!

Fast Attack Land Speeders and War Buggies and that Tau Pariah equivalent are hands down the worst units in the game. The weapons are lame, They can to easily be destroyed and are Extremely limited in quantity. So lack of Quantity and Lack of Quality in Stats, Weapons, and they are just down right useless because of the other options in all codex that outshine them in every aspect of what they could do and what "you SHOULD be doing"

Heavy Support Flash Gits, I wanna use them at some point but Even I have to say that their cost needs to be reduced by a lot. Especially the upgrades that need to be reduced by 70% in order to make them good enough to be competitive enough to ever see the board ever again.

This sums up this whole post:
http://youtu.be/gZVsbpvjETs

From my limited knowledge (so just IG & Tau, which accounts for half the games' useless units):

HQ: Ethereals, especially Aun'va, Primaris Psyker, Techpriest

Troops: Conscripts, FW, Penal Legion, both Harker & Bastonne

Elites: Ratlings

Fast attack: Gun drones, Vespid, Mogul Kamir

Heavy Support: Skyray, all LRBT's except basic, Demolisher and Executioner, all IG Ordnance except the Basilisk, Pask, Deathstrike

DC: Devilfish

I think that's all

Ratlings are actually fairly good for snipers, it's just the sniper rifle rule blows.

If your troops are in a vehicle then the Ethereal dying won't affect them, so you can try to get him killed first turn to help make Tau not worry about morale. (like everyone else starts) Only useful if mechanized though. (then again foot Tau, it makes me slap knee)

Penal legion are points efficient, just not slot efficient. If you could take 30 man squads of them they would be decent.

Ratlings are still better then ogryns

Mogal Kamir is good for only one thing: evidence that lances are compatible with furious charge, cause that's the only thing explaining him. Though Straken giving rough riders furious charge does have an appeal

Osyr wrote:If your troops are in a vehicle then the Ethereal dying won't affect them, so you can try to get him killed first turn to help make Tau not worry about morale. (like everyone else starts) Only useful if mechanized though. (then again foot Tau, it makes me slap knee)

Penal legion are points efficient, just not slot efficient. If you could take 30 man squads of them they would be decent.

Ratlings are still better then ogryns

Mogal Kamir is good for only one thing: evidence that lances are compatible with furious charge, cause that's the only thing explaining him. Though Straken giving rough riders furious charge does have an appeal

Fire Warriors are always in a vehicle; if they're not then something's gone wrong. But the Battlesuits, the things you actually want on the table, usually have jetpacks and therefore retreat 3d6, as well as having crappy leadership.

Penal Legion are extremely unreliable.

Ratlings would be better than Ogryns if the current Sniper rules didn't suck. At least Ogryns can take some fire, and if you give them Yarrick you have one of the IG's only decent CC units.

The hunting lance rules specifically state that they always strike at S5 I5 AP2 the first time they charge IIRC, therefore overriding the FC rules. Then given Mogul's cost, Rage, and the fact that Rough Riders are already pretty bad...

Oh, and I forgot one. HQ: Nork Dedogg.

lukyboi wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hormagaunts are a fairly bad troops choice - slower than they used to be and dont unlock anything useful, like troops choice tervigon.

Yes, but they are dirt cheap, make good shields, and look awesome!

And at their base cost, fairly reasonable. Also, if you want to play and assaulty army you really don't have to worry about synapse... *AGGGH! Out of Synapse!!* I am forced to assault things with my assault troops. Drat!!!

TrollPie wrote:From my limited knowledge (so just IG & Tau, which accounts for half the games' useless units):

HQ: Ethereals, especially Aun'va, Primaris Psyker, Techpriest

Troops: Conscripts, FW, Penal Legion, both Harker & Bastonne

Elites: Ratlings

Fast attack: Gun drones, Vespid, Mogul Kamir

Heavy Support: Skyray, all LRBT's except basic, Demolisher and Executioner, all IG Ordnance except the Basilisk, Pask, Deathstrike

DC: Devilfish

I think that's all

Why are LRBTs bad? Basilisks are actually pretty much the worst IG ordnance as well, and Harker is actually pretty awesome. He gives your squad stealth and lets them infiltrate or outflank, which means you can just come in and ruin someone's day with a bunch of plasma/melta and mobile heavy bolter fire. Harker is awesome, even if he's a little pricey for a tourney list.

Brother SRM wrote:

TrollPie wrote:From my limited knowledge (so just IG & Tau, which accounts for half the games' useless units):

HQ: Ethereals, especially Aun'va, Primaris Psyker, Techpriest

Troops: Conscripts, FW, Penal Legion, both Harker & Bastonne

Elites: Ratlings

Fast attack: Gun drones, Vespid, Mogul Kamir

Heavy Support: Skyray, all LRBT's except basic, Demolisher and Executioner, all IG Ordnance except the Basilisk, Pask, Deathstrike

DC: Devilfish

I think that's all

Why are LRBTs bad? Basilisks are actually pretty much the worst IG ordnance as well, and Harker is actually pretty awesome. He gives your squad stealth and lets them infiltrate or outflank, which means you can just come in and ruin someone's day with a bunch of plasma/melta and mobile heavy bolter fire. Harker is awesome, even if he's a little pricey for a tourney list.

Basilisk arent terrible, the min range is not great, but it's fairly cheap for what it does.

It's not terrible, it's just not as good as many of the other ordnance battery options for cost and power.

Brother SRM wrote:It's not terrible, it's just not as good as many of the other ordnance battery options for cost and power.

Only because the Manticore is too good really. I'd say bassies are pretty even with Griffons, Medusas and Colossi

HQ: ethereals
Elite: beasts of nurgle
Troops: can't think of any
Fast: spawn
Heavy: whirlwinds

TrollPie wrote:From my limited knowledge (so just IG & Tau, which accounts for half the games' useless units):

HQ: Ethereals, especially Aun'va, Primaris Psyker, Techpriest

Primaris Psyker can be a good unit also, especially in smaller games.

Troops: Conscripts, FW, Penal Legion, both Harker & Bastonne

Harker and Bastonne are good, especially Harker. He gives you stealth and a mobile HB. Combine that with meltaguns and goodbye armor. They just cost a lot of points, thats all.

Elites: Ratlings

Agreed.

Fast attack: Gun drones, Vespid, Mogul Kamir

Agreed.

Heavy Support: Skyray, all LRBT's except basic, Demolisher and Executioner, all IG Ordnance except the Basilisk, Pask, Deathstrike

LRBT Exterminator MIGHT be useful, if you have no Hydras in your army, and have Pask with it. Otherwise, not worth it. Deathstrike? Are you kidding? That's a comedy piece, not a good unit. It takes 6+ turns for it to even get a shot, by which your enemy has killed it three times. Even if it did get a chance to launch, the effect is not that devastating. It will take some troops with it, yes. But 6+ turns? Even LRBT Punisher is better than that thing.

DC: Devilfish

Agreed.

I think that's all

Ratling is certainly not the worst Elite unit in this game...

Elite: Necron Pariahs

Heavy Support: mawloc,for 170 points you get about 3 bursts a game before its destroyed.

I've got to defend possessed marines. Best unit in the codex for taking out your enemies units with massed power weapon stuff.

With the MOT they have a 4+ invun save, sure they don't have grenades, but they are str 5 and if you roll right, you get str 6, feel no pain, or power weapons (and consequently +1 attack on each model)

Everything else is lackluster but can work. Fleet helps them do their job, scout works GREAT if they start in a transport, and rending is always welcome.

If anything, they are too expensive, points wise. I enjoy the random aspect of their rules, as I enjoy the CSM dreads and demon weapons. Take a chance, it doesn't hurt bad everytime.

TrollPie wrote:Heavy Support: Skyray, all LRBT's except basic, Demolisher and Executioner

You forgot to 'except' the Vanquisher - S8 with 2D6 armour penetration? Whack a lascannon on the hull and you've got a long ranged anti-tank gun, range 72", with a handy shorter ranged anti-tank weapon. Put it in the corner of the board and almost everything will be hitting it's frontal armour of 14, when they get in range, whilst it can dish out punishment from a long way away. With Pask in it it will become rather deadly; +1 to armour penetration rolls and hitting with BS4. For 220 points I'd take that Vanquisher.

Must admit I do have a soft spot for the Exterminator, but thats because I used one to annihilate an Ultramarines mechanised list several years ago - lascannon in the hull took out the land raider & the Exterminator autocannon chewed up everything else. Even the sponson heavy bolters got in on the act when taking on the Rhino's, but that was back when the Exterminator only had 2 autocannon shots, twin-linked. Now it has 4. I wish I had one again... but the Vanquisher is still the best option from the LRBTs in my eyes.

Pask Vanquishers are really expensive though. Considering for cheaper you can get veterans with melta guns in a chimera to serve the same purpose, the Vanquisher kind of pales. It's a very cool unit though, and one I hope to use in the future. Standard LRBT is the best all-round option since it can do well against everything short of Terminators.

HQ: Nork Deddog, I mean come on, you can wound him with a lasgun on a 4+

Elites: Ratlings

Troop: The new 5th ed Necron Warrior (jk jk jk)

Heavy Support: Carnifex (it costs too much now)

DT: Vanilla Rhino

Other/2nd placers: Sgt Bastonne, Space Pope, Lucuis, Fabius Bile, Pyrovore, Shrikes

Aun'va is the worst hq. You spend 200 points to make your army worse. I don't care that you can wound Nork on a 4 with a Lasgun, You can do the same to Aun'va.

Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

Beastmaster wrote:Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

Tell me how lesser daemons are almost Ethereal bad, and at that worse than Chaos Spawn by exclusion? They're cheap, can assault out of deep strike, and are reasonably tough with T4 and 5++. They're a good tarpit for Banshees, Terminators and the like, and are a useful distraction and harassment unit. 3.5 codex Daemonbomb they are not, but they're not useless or actively detrimental to your army like Ethereals.

lesser daemons have won me games before, they're cheap, don't take up any space on the force org chart and people tend to ignore them
the summoned greater daemon is my favorite
spawn are good only if created via the psychic power
I might run them here and there, mostly because I like the models and it fits the theme


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Beastmaster wrote:Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

they have one job, sitting on objectives, and you can have as many units as you can cram into your list

HQ: One I haven't seen, Commissar Yarrick. He's extremely overpriced and not worth taking as a supposed CC beast.

Brother SRM wrote:Pask Vanquishers are really expensive though. Considering for cheaper you can get veterans with melta guns in a chimera to serve the same purpose, the Vanquisher kind of pales. It's a very cool unit though, and one I hope to use in the future. Standard LRBT is the best all-round option since it can do well against everything short of Terminators.

But the Veterans have to get to the target, especially if they want the 2D6 armour penetration and that Land Raider* could be sitting right at the back of the enemy army/board - advantage of a Pask Vanquisher, whilst it is expensive, is that it allows you to strike from outside Lascannon range with an excellent chance of hitting (above average chance) with high chances of penetrating. The Pask Vanquisher LRBT also has the advantage of being armour F14 - armour F12 Chimera is easier to blow up, especially when you're having to drive it into range of enemy units when even the autocannon can take it down - all you need is a crew stunned/immobolised result and your veterans are in firing range of the enemy. For the points I'd rather have the surety of the Vanquisher but I do prefer to sit further back and fire away, but I suppose it also depends what your opponent is doing, what army setup you and they have and what mission you're doing.

*I'll use the Land Raider as an example as SM armies are common and you rarely see one without a Land Raider, It's also a very tough nut to crack.

Pyrovore

Mawloc

Bright lances (for the cost, look good but never get anywhere near the enemy)

Im going to bet, that EVERYONE that has said FlashGits as heavies, either never used them, or used them incorrectly. Firstly they are not AT what so ever, any attempt in using them that way is an auto lose. I use FlashGits regularly and love them, they have a playstyle you have to get used to, and a certain build to take (leave the blastas out for 1) and they can really kick teef in.

Seriously, build a non kan wall/BW spam list, with some thought and they can handle their gak

And Badrukk is pretty awesome!

Brother SRM wrote:

Beastmaster wrote:Ethereals are quite possibly the most useless thing in all of warhammer 40k, and summoned daemons for CSM aren't much better

Tell me how lesser daemons are almost Ethereal bad, and at that worse than Chaos Spawn by exclusion? They're cheap, can assault out of deep strike, and are reasonably tough with T4 and 5++. They're a good tarpit for Banshees, Terminators and the like, and are a useful distraction and harassment unit. 3.5 codex Daemonbomb they are not, but they're not useless or actively detrimental to your army like Ethereals.

Summned daemons aren't cheap. They cost just a bit less than chaos marines, have no armoursave, a crappy invulsave and the only thing they can kill in an assault are those things that can be killed just as well by your normal chaosmarines. To use them as a tarpit is to throw away points which could be used for something actually useful.

Flashgitz, the red head step child of the ork codex!

KingDeath wrote:
Summned daemons aren't cheap. They cost just a bit less than chaos marines, have no armoursave, a crappy invulsave and the only thing they can kill in an assault are those things that can be killed just as well by your normal chaosmarines. To use them as a tarpit is to throw away points which could be used for something actually useful.

They can assault out of deep strike, and they're a good wildcard. They're not generally the game winners or anything, but they serve their purpose. Also, that 5++ shouldn't be discounted entirely. I'd rather have them tying up Terminators, Banshees and the like than my Marines.

By "just a bit less" you mean "1/3rd less", right? They tarpit banshees or anything else rocking power weapons FAR better than a marine, because they can actually tarpit them. A crappy inv is better than none at all, especially on a model only 2/3rds the cost of what you would have used...

Hornifex wrote:Heavy Support: mawloc,for 170 points you get about 3 bursts a game before its destroyed.

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE MAWLOC! FOR THIS, YOU SHALL BURN!

Ahem...

But seriously. For only 10 more points than a Carnifex you get an instant Terminator-killer that isn't that bad in CC. Plus it's durable, can leap around the board, and looks awesome.

nosferatu1001 wrote:By "just a bit less" you mean "1/3rd less", right? They tarpit banshees or anything else rocking power weapons FAR better than a marine, because they can actually tarpit them. A crappy inv is better than none at all, especially on a model only 2/3rds the cost of what you would have used...

It's 14% less. Yes, paying 13 points for something that is at best a tarpit is ineffective when an overal better unit costs just two points more.
My point is, to make summoned daemons effective ( 10 daemons at least are required ) you have to pay far too many points for them.
For the same amount of points you can almost have a 5man csm squad ( champion, melter, combimelter ) in a rhino., something which can block movement and los, tankshock, destroy vehicles and infantry and, if the marines decide to stay in their transport, is completely immune to small arms fire.
The ability to assault after deepstriking ( which requires an icon, which means that one of your units has to be nearby ) is nice in theory but without a sufficiently killy unit to deepstrike it fails
to impress.
If lesser daemons would be significantly cheaper ( perhaps costing 8-9 points instead of 13 ) then one could think about using them as tarpit but atm they simply fail to deliver.

You entirely ignored the point about tarpitting: daemons tarpit a hell of a lot more effectively than CSM do, becase they have an invulnerable save.

Having an invulnerable save >> not having one, when it comes to facing down banshees, terminators, etc.

And having guns> not having guns in every other conceivable situation.

Squigsquasher wrote:

Hornifex wrote:Heavy Support: mawloc,for 170 points you get about 3 bursts a game before its destroyed.

HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE MAWLOC! FOR THIS, YOU SHALL BURN!

Ahem...

But seriously. For only 10 more points than a Carnifex you get an instant Terminator-killer that isn't that bad in CC. Plus it's durable, can leap around the board, and looks awesome.

That made me chuckle.

That also proves that carnifex is no longer desirable

I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet -

Vespid. The second biggest waste in the Tau 'dex

mega_bassist wrote:I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet -

Vespid. The second biggest waste in the Tau 'dex

Its been mentioned but yeah, I agree with ya. From what I see, everyone who has vespids proxy them as stealth suits

Commissar Typhus wrote:

mega_bassist wrote:I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet -

Vespid. The second biggest waste in the Tau 'dex

Its been mentioned but yeah, I agree with ya. From what I see, everyone who has vespids proxy them as stealth suits

Haha, whoops! I went through the first two pages and only noticed people mentioning Etherals...I'm so glad I proxied BEFORE I bought the actual models

And being a cheap scoring unit that can quite happily sit in cover and be harder to shift than CSM....while you spend points on plagues and zerkers

Durza wrote:And having guns> not having guns in every other conceivable situation.

Yeah, but deep striking them straight into assault means they're not going to get shot until they've either somehow won the fight or they're dead anyway.

Pyrovore... seriously , he's the worst...

Brother SRM wrote:

Durza wrote:And having guns> not having guns in every other conceivable situation.

Yeah, but deep striking them straight into assault means they're not going to get shot until they've either somehow won the fight or they're dead anyway.

First you need an icon to do any of this. Icons are not always avaiable, perhaps because you prefer to field cultmarines or you simply don't waste any extra points on your chaosmarine squads ( even chaosglory is a waste on a 5man melter/combimelter squad ). Even if you have plenty of icons you need to have one of your icon bearing units close to the enemy to actually use your 13 points a pop daemons.
Assuming you have this, well, congrats, you just "tarpited" the enemy with a sizeable chunk of your army ( one which will be be destroyed in a round if you are unlucky, oh, and no retreat wounds with a 5+ invulsave suck, badly ).
To make matters even worse the deepstriking rules don't even allow you to "summon" the daemons exactly when you need them but when they become avaiable.

Using lesser daemons as objective grabbers is equaly inefficient. You still have little control over when the daemons actually arrive on the field, which means that you
need to have an icon nearby until they do. Unlike normal chaosmarines, daemons lack the 3+ save ( although the coversave can compensate that somewhat ) and have no aditional ability
to actually influence the battle (by shooting) while sitting on an objective. So what does this mean? Assuming you were lucky and your daemons arrived early and now sit on an objective. It is true that they will not run away but they aren't particularly durable, even with the 4+ coversave. In fact a moderate (30) amount of normal boltershots is probably sufficient to wipe them out, not to mention flamers and the like.
So you either have to invest into larger daemonsquads or...well, you put some chaosmarines into a rhino which will not care about most anti infantry weapons while still costing less than a larger daemonsquad (10).

So once again i think that daemons are severely overpriced for what they do. They are unreliable, not particularly durable and lack all the nice upgrades that make chaosmarines somewhat passable in close combat ( mainly boltpistols, fraggrenades ). Fearless, a bad invulsave and the ability to assault once they arrive at the table are nice, but hardly sufficient to waste so many points for little gain which could be utilised for something more useful.

Invul saves, t4 and fearless make summoned daemons a decent tarpit, send them in on an objective later in the game, if they lose combat and don't die off, they contest, if they win, they hold the objective.

Kingdeath - fair enough, we'll bow to your tactical acumen, that goes against some of the most successful chaos players out there...

Theyre still not the worst troops, by any mark