Which do you think is stronger, the hold ethereals hae on Tau or the Chaotic powers?

Etherea'ls powers seem more of the suggestive kind, while chaos can drive you completely insane.

I don't think this would be a contest. It's not that tau can't fall to chaos (some people think they cant). Just that ethereals hold that much more sway.

Depends on the person/species being lured.

I don't think they're really going to be directed the full brunt of Chaos. The IoM is an easier target and is less localised than the Tau allowing easier and less dectetable ways of breaching the Material realm.

That and there aren't many Tau Psykers now are there

Are we talking about Tau? Cause chaos doesn't effect them really human's on the otherhand can easily be made chaos' bitch.

Just wait until the new Codex. TAU PSYKERS/ANTIPSYKERS EVERYWHERE.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Just wait until the new Codex. TAU PSYKERS/ANTIPSYKERS EVERYWHERE.

Hopefully they won't rape the fluff that much...

yamgrenade wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Just wait until the new Codex. TAU PSYKERS/ANTIPSYKERS EVERYWHERE.

Hopefully they won't rape the fluff that much...

They will do worse. You know it's true.

im2randomghgh wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Just wait until the new Codex. TAU PSYKERS/ANTIPSYKERS EVERYWHERE.

Hopefully they won't rape the fluff that much...

They will do worse. You know it's true.

Sadly.....I do

yamgrenade wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Just wait until the new Codex. TAU PSYKERS/ANTIPSYKERS EVERYWHERE.

Hopefully they won't rape the fluff that much...

They will do worse. You know it's true.

Sadly.....I do

The fluff will be good if it's written by Ward, which it probably will...

Anyway, the Ethereals aren't as powerful as a Chaos god...It's just that chaos doesn't want Tau...except Khorne...he loves the Tau, theirs just SO good in close combat

Tau were never modified or engineered to my knowledge, so their connection to the warp isnt as strong or natural the way it is in humans, Orks or Eldar. That gives them significant protection from their souls being taken and used as "gateways" via daemonic possession.

They can, however, still be corrupted, mutated, etc. by proximity to the warping power sof Chaos, or corrupted by physical contact or other means (if even inert matter can be, I'd be safe to say the tau can.) Likely the Tau's fervent belief in the Greater Good and Ethereals (who are baiscally godlike figures to them for all intents and purposes) provides whatever shielding they may still need (although again they're as vulnerable to physical corruption as anyone/anything else is.) Belief is what matters most - whether it is in a religious figure or a principle makes no difference methinks. It's at least consistnet with the depiction in the Fire Warrior novel (which is probably my favorite Tau-oriented novel.)

Fire Warrior spoiler:

Chaos.
Because Grater Good is an idea and Chaos is a real deal.

bombboy1252 wrote:Anyway, the Ethereals aren't as powerful as a Chaos god...It's just that chaos doesn't want Tau...except Khorne...he loves the Tau, theirs just SO good in close combat

I lol'ed. But what about the Kroot?

bombboy1252 wrote:
Anyway, the Ethereals aren't as powerful as a Chaos god...It's just that chaos doesn't want Tau...except Khorne...he loves the Tau, theirs just SO good in close combat

I know your joking, but Khorne dose love tau. A single battlesuit can level the kind of destruction normally reserved for tanks. Not to mention how they can make the same tanks bleed. Khorne loves that. Actually the only chaos corruption tau have suffered so far is khorne's blood lust.

slice of toast wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:Anyway, the Ethereals aren't as powerful as a Chaos god...It's just that chaos doesn't want Tau...except Khorne...he loves the Tau, theirs just SO good in close combat

I lol'ed. But what about the Kroot?

Kroot have often been used by chaos, mostly because of their mercenary nature.

The question is a bit vague do you mean which is more powerful to Tau or which is more powerful in general.

If it to Tau the the answer is pretty obvious seeing as most of the species follow the greater good and only one Tau has eve been shown to have fallen to chaos (and only briefly).

Firewarrior is Canon?

Tau were never modified or engineered to my knowledge

Tau where engineered by the Eldar and the Ethereals are modified by the Eldar into a leader caste.

Water Caste atempts to lure allies or convince enemies to give up. (Slaanesh)
Air Caste is slowly mutating from the lack of gravity in their lives. (Tzeentch)
Fire Caste makes war. (Khorne)
Earth Caste is slowly helping the Tau expand and absorb throughout their area of the galaxy. (Nurgle)
Ethereal Caste united the other castes. (Undivided)

The Tau are like a "sane" version of Chaos. They evolved rapidly and changed into 4 species. (powers Tzeentch)
They expand from their homeworld by convincing the other races they meet to join, all the while keeping secrets. (powers Slaanesh)
They spread slowly and bring about the downfall of societies by either absorbing them or detroying them. (powers Nurgle)
They make war upon the Orks and Imperium and suffer from a condition where they may go into a rage. (duh Khorne)

I'd guess that since the Ethereals use pheramones they most closely resemble Slaanesh followers.
This would make sence as they are a pet prodject of the Eldar and Slaanesh is all about bringing an end to the Eldar.

DeffDred wrote:

Tau were never modified or engineered to my knowledge

Tau where engineered by the Eldar and the Ethereals are modified by the Eldar into a leader caste.

Water Caste atempts to lure allies or convince enemies to give up. (Slaanesh)
Air Caste is slowly mutating from the lack of gravity in their lives. (Tzeentch)
Fire Caste makes war. (Khorne)
Earth Caste is slowly helping the Tau expand and absorb throughout their area of the galaxy. (Nurgle)
Ethereal Caste united the other castes. (Undivided)

The Tau are like a "sane" version of Chaos. They evolved rapidly and changed into 4 species. (powers Tzeentch)
They expand from their homeworld by convincing the other races they meet to join, all the while keeping secrets. (powers Slaanesh)
They spread slowly and bring about the downfall of societies by either absorbing them or detroying them. (powers Nurgle)
They make war upon the Orks and Imperium and suffer from a condition where they may go into a rage. (duh Khorne)

I'd guess that since the Ethereals use pheramones they most closely resemble Slaanesh followers.
This would make sence as they are a pet prodject of the Eldar and Slaanesh is all about bringing an end to the Eldar.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Eldar had no part in the creation of Tau.

Aren't Etherals psychic to some degree?

Specific to Tau, the Greater Good is probably more powerful when they're in a group. Alone on a Chaos planet, they could fall.

To all other races, Chaos.

Durza wrote:Aren't Etherals psychic to some degree?

Specific to Tau, the Greater Good is probably more powerful when they're in a group. Alone on a Chaos planet, they could fall.

To all other races, Chaos.

Nope. Ethereals use pheromones, not mind powers.

Those are 2 completely different things.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Eldar had no part in the creation of Tau.

Since we refering to Firewarrior as canon I thought Xeneology would also count.

The Tau were created by the Eldar and then protected with a warp storm. The plan didn't go quite right as the Tau were warring with themselves.

The Eldar ask the Quarel (spelled right?) Queen if they could have an unborn queen. The Quarel said "Hell's nah" and the Eldar went to war with them.

The Eldar then stole a baby queen (BTW These aliens are completely dominated by pharamones), used the small crystal pheramone structure found inside and implaned it into a new Tau mutations head.

Thus the Ethereals were born. Then one stormy night the Eldar drop the Ethereals off on T'au and the rest is history.

Never heard that before...

Durza wrote:Never heard that before...

Because it's by no means confirmed.

It's always been hinted that the Old Ones created the Tau and protected them with the Warp Storm. It explains the 'affection' that the Eldar feel towards the Tau, in that they're the progeny of a dead race.

Why has no one read Xeneology?

It's like the conerstone of the 40k universe for the 3rd and 4th (maybe 5th) editions.

It lays out the main races aswell as others you haven't heard of. It's the book that clearly describes how the Kroot have a second brain in their stomach.
It shows how thick an Ork skull is, genestealers have a million tyranids living in their throats, all tyranids have a baby ripper inside, Necrons could talk and have emotions before this new codex next month,
Eldar poop crystals, all kinds of fun facts.

The two major points the book brings up are: Tau are a pet prodject of the Eldar to try to continue the Ancient Ones plans, and the tablet that shows the Ancient Ones creating the other races and fighting the C'Tan... all the while giving power (or something) to a human fetus in a star (Star Child? Emperor?).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because it's by no means confirmed.

It's always been hinted that the Old Ones created the Tau and protected them with the Warp Storm. It explains the 'affection' that the Eldar feel towards the Tau, in that they're the progeny of a dead race.

The Tau are 2000 years old. The Ancient Ones had long since been destroyed (or sent into hidding).
I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm making the only logical ones. Just read the book.

DeffDred wrote:Why has no one read Xeneology?

It's like the conerstone of the 40k universe for the 3rd and 4th (maybe 5th) editions.

It lays out the main races aswell as others you haven't heard of. It's the book that clearly describes how the Kroot have a second brain in their stomach.
It shows how thick an Ork skull is, genestealers have a million tyranids living in their throats, all tyranids have a baby ripper inside, Necrons could talk and have emotions before this new codex next month,
Eldar poop crystals, all kinds of fun facts.

The two major points the book brings up are: Tau are a pet prodject of the Eldar to try to continue the Ancient Ones plans, and the tablet that shows the Ancient Ones creating the other races and fighting the C'Tan... all the while giving power (or something) to a human fetus in a star (Star Child? Emperor?).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because it's by no means confirmed.

It's always been hinted that the Old Ones created the Tau and protected them with the Warp Storm. It explains the 'affection' that the Eldar feel towards the Tau, in that they're the progeny of a dead race.

The Tau are 2000 years old. The Ancient Ones had long since been destroyed (or sent into hidding).
I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm making the only logical ones. Just read the book.

Tau CODEX Page 4

...The Tau are a young race, barely 6000 years old...
The fact that they got something that simple wrong kinda hints that they're making stuff up.

Well I guess the Chaos gods are better at converting subjects forcibly but if you think what both sides offer...
I would say that units are more likely going to defect to the Tau side if it depends of their own will.

DeffDred wrote:Why has no one read Xeneology?

Probably because its nigh impossible to find that bloody book lol.

All hypnotic powers aside, chaos takes the cake no contest. Eternal life, power, knowledge, pleasure...
The list will go on and on with chaos. Tau greater good? Whats the gain here?
The greater good just doesnt have enough to offer when going up against the temptations of chaos.

...especially when Slaanesh is making the offer.

yamgrenade wrote:

DeffDred wrote:Why has no one read Xeneology?

It's like the conerstone of the 40k universe for the 3rd and 4th (maybe 5th) editions.

It lays out the main races aswell as others you haven't heard of. It's the book that clearly describes how the Kroot have a second brain in their stomach.
It shows how thick an Ork skull is, genestealers have a million tyranids living in their throats, all tyranids have a baby ripper inside, Necrons could talk and have emotions before this new codex next month,
Eldar poop crystals, all kinds of fun facts.

The two major points the book brings up are: Tau are a pet prodject of the Eldar to try to continue the Ancient Ones plans, and the tablet that shows the Ancient Ones creating the other races and fighting the C'Tan... all the while giving power (or something) to a human fetus in a star (Star Child? Emperor?).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Because it's by no means confirmed.

It's always been hinted that the Old Ones created the Tau and protected them with the Warp Storm. It explains the 'affection' that the Eldar feel towards the Tau, in that they're the progeny of a dead race.

The Tau are 2000 years old. The Ancient Ones had long since been destroyed (or sent into hidding).
I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm making the only logical ones. Just read the book.

Tau CODEX Page 4

...The Tau are a young race, barely 6000 years old...
The fact that they got something that simple wrong kinda hints that they're making stuff up.

I think that the Xenology puts Etherals at 2000, not the Tau as a whole (I could be way off base with that one, but the timeline would roughly work I think, 2000 years to go from sticking each other to Gundams under Space Pope rule)

p.s. The only reason Aun'Va pushed tech was to get his pope moblie.

Definatly one of the best books they wrote. I'm still curious why Tau have vertical rib cages.

I'd like to make an army of Umbra lol. Just a bunch of floating black marbles.

DeffDred wrote:

Tau were never modified or engineered to my knowledge

Tau where engineered by the Eldar and the Ethereals are modified by the Eldar into a leader caste.

Water Caste atempts to lure allies or convince enemies to give up. (Slaanesh)
Air Caste is slowly mutating from the lack of gravity in their lives. (Tzeentch)
Fire Caste makes war. (Khorne)
Earth Caste is slowly helping the Tau expand and absorb throughout their area of the galaxy. (Nurgle)
Ethereal Caste united the other castes. (Undivided)

The Tau are like a "sane" version of Chaos. They evolved rapidly and changed into 4 species. (powers Tzeentch)
They expand from their homeworld by convincing the other races they meet to join, all the while keeping secrets. (powers Slaanesh)
They spread slowly and bring about the downfall of societies by either absorbing them or detroying them. (powers Nurgle)
They make war upon the Orks and Imperium and suffer from a condition where they may go into a rage. (duh Khorne)

I'd guess that since the Ethereals use pheramones they most closely resemble Slaanesh followers.
This would make sence as they are a pet prodject of the Eldar and Slaanesh is all about bringing an end to the Eldar.

The Tau are ~6000 years old, their gene structure is mutable (notes this in the codex) to the point they will genetically mutate and develop to meet selective needs (the air caste used to glide on mebranous wings like a flying squirrel), and Ethereals can be resisted or outright ignored. The Tau are just heavily indoctrinated to not want to.

their gene structure is mutable (notes this in the codex) to the point they will genetically mutate and develop to meet selective needs (the air caste used to glide on mebranous wings like a flying squirrel),

So in about 200 years they'll have super strong hand to hand capabilities? I think all that mutating might have been a result of that warp storm they were in for 6000 years.

The Tau are ~6000 years old

My apologies, I meant 2000 years since they invented fire and tools (when the Adeptus Biologis first found T'au, btw the storms appeared after they left... suggesting that someone was watching and felt T'au needed to be protected).

Or it was their mutable gene-structure, hence why the different Castes adapted to their environments.

I think the Ethereals exert a kind of control similar to the Amplitur from Alan Dean Foster's The Damned trilogy. It's a combination of psychic/pheremonal influence, brainwashing via implanted messages in every facet of the Tau's daily lives, indoctrination through propaganda from the moment of birth, and tampering on a genetic level. They've been doing it for a long, long time, and the control they have is so ironclad it's almost impossible for any Tau to get off the leash. The rank and file members of the Tau race (in my opinion) lack the free will to even commit to Chaos anymore.

That's what makes the Tau so scary.

DeffDred wrote:

Because it's by no means confirmed.

It's always been hinted that the Old Ones created the Tau and protected them with the Warp Storm. It explains the 'affection' that the Eldar feel towards the Tau, in that they're the progeny of a dead race.

The Tau are 2000 years old. The Ancient Ones had long since been destroyed (or sent into hidding).
I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm making the only logical ones. Just read the book.

A. Tau are ~6000 old
B. It is Old Ones
C. It is believed that the Eldar (not the Old Ones) modified the Tau race and created the Ethereals.

This is perfectly resonable an idea due to the fact that the Tau rapidly advanced, the differences between castes (bar Etherael) can be explained by the selective breeding that has gone on within the Tau.

BluntmanDC wrote:

DeffDred wrote:

Because it's by no means confirmed.

It's always been hinted that the Old Ones created the Tau and protected them with the Warp Storm. It explains the 'affection' that the Eldar feel towards the Tau, in that they're the progeny of a dead race.

The Tau are 2000 years old. The Ancient Ones had long since been destroyed (or sent into hidding).
I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm making the only logical ones. Just read the book.

A. Tau are ~6000 old
B. It is Old Ones
C. It is believed that the Eldar (not the Old Ones) modified the Tau race and created the Ethereals.

This is perfectly resonable an idea due to the fact that the Tau rapidly advanced, the differences between castes (bar Etherael) can be explained by the selective breeding that has gone on within the Tau.

I would like to theorize that the Laughing God is in fact a surviving Old One(?), and used the Harlequins to steal the Q'orl queen to create the Tau, recognizing a race with limited ability to fall to the Chaotic Powers as the best way to save the Galaxy (The Tau live "THE IMPERIAL TRUTH", the Emperor's original plan to overcome Chaos)

Weren't the Old Ones an actual race though? Not gods I mean.

Durza wrote:Weren't the Old Ones an actual race though? Not gods I mean.

They were. It is possible for something to be called a God, and not actually be one. Especially with the level of Tech the Old Ones had (Not to mentoin the Laughing God knows all of the Webway, and the Old Ones made the Webway. Just a coincidence?

bombboy1252 wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Just wait until the new Codex. TAU PSYKERS/ANTIPSYKERS EVERYWHERE.

Hopefully they won't rape the fluff that much...

They will do worse. You know it's true.

Sadly.....I do

The fluff will be good if it's written by Ward, which it probably will...

Anyway, the Ethereals aren't as powerful as a Chaos god...It's just that chaos doesn't want Tau...except Khorne...he loves the Tau, theirs just SO good in close combat

I prey this was a sarcastic joke...

happygolucky wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:The fluff will be good if it's written by Ward, which it probably will...

Anyway, the Ethereals aren't as powerful as a Chaos god...It's just that chaos doesn't want Tau...except Khorne...he loves the Tau, theirs just SO good in close combat

I prey this was a sarcastic joke...

Nope. He thinks Draigo's fluff is well written and fits in with what came before it.

Chaos obviously. The Greater Good is more of a moral highground to keep the Tau Empire from collapsing on itself and by no means powerful enough to exert over other races.

With the Tau being so naturally blunt to the Warp, they don't understand it the way the imperium does and seek to observe it through controlled experiments (and to an extent, learn to use warp travel).

Remember the Fall of Medusa V? How Glorious was it for a Tau player to fight for sceintific study... :sarcasm:

So Chaos is stronger, but not strong enough to waver Tau mentally, since they have no connection to the warp at all.

God please spare him from ward fluff. so he likes BA teaming up with necrons and GK killing SoB, next you will tell me that the imperium is using monkeys as-

*thinks for a moment*

Thank Tzeench I chose CSM for an army...

Back to topic and Chaos wins HANDS DOWN!!!!
(mainly because when have tau been able to use daemons eh?).

StormForged wrote:So Chaos is stronger, but not strong enough to waver Tau mentally, since they have no connection to the warp at all.

Well, they have souls, and as such some connection to the Warp. Given time and prolonged exposure, some Tau will likely be corrupted.

Imagine Ward Chaos fluff...


Anyway, yeah... the Tau are resistant to Chaos purely because of their weak Warp connection, the Greater Good doesn't really do much to oppose it.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

StormForged wrote:So Chaos is stronger, but not strong enough to waver Tau mentally, since they have no connection to the warp at all.

Well, they have souls, and as such some connection to the Warp. Given time and prolonged exposure, some Tau will likely be corrupted.

The Grey Knights disprove this logic as a false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:Imagine Ward Chaos fluff...


Anyway, yeah... the Tau are resistant to Chaos purely because of their weak Warp connection, the Greater Good doesn't really do much to oppose it.

What was the purpose of the Imperial Truth, that scared the Chaos Gods into intervening in the Materium?

Humans have a far greater warp presence than Tau and psykers. The Imperial Truth was an alternative to actively worshipping the Chaos Gods, which would give them far more power than passively performing acts like scheming and such which would give them comparatively tiny amounts of energy to feed on.

DeffDred wrote:

their gene structure is mutable (notes this in the codex) to the point they will genetically mutate and develop to meet selective needs (the air caste used to glide on mebranous wings like a flying squirrel),

So in about 200 years they'll have super strong hand to hand capabilities? I think all that mutating might have been a result of that warp storm they were in for 6000 years.

The Tau are ~6000 years old

My apologies, I meant 2000 years since they invented fire and tools (when the Adeptus Biologis first found T'au, btw the storms appeared after they left... suggesting that someone was watching and felt T'au needed to be protected).

As noted though, the casts have always been different and mutated different to meet their niches. The Fire castes were plains dwellers and were always bigger and stronger. The air castes had 'wings' and now do not and are skeletal giants. In many respects the Tau are not unlike the Kroot in this aspect. The Kroot just mutate faster.

Chaos all the way, I dont recall the Tau trowing the enthier IoM into a massive civil war, or launching 13 black crusades.

CpatTom wrote:
The Grey Knights disprove this logic as a false.

The Tau aren't protected from it in the same way. They don't have the armour or rituals, and neither do they have the training and all the stuff that hurts Daemons. They also aren't specifically told how to counter the influence of Chaos.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

CpatTom wrote:
The Grey Knights disprove this logic as a false.

The Tau aren't protected from it in the same way. They don't have the armour or rituals, and neither do they have the training and all the stuff that hurts Daemons. They also aren't specifically told how to counter the influence of Chaos.

Or simply put, the Tau aren't Grey Knights.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Well, they have souls, and as such some connection to the Warp. Given time and prolonged exposure, some Tau will likely be corrupted.

The Tau aren't protected from it in the same way. They don't have the armour or rituals, and neither do they have the training and all the stuff that hurts Daemons. They also aren't specifically told how to counter the influence of Chaos.

My point still stands. The basis that Time and Exposure to Chaos (of which I assume the Grey Knights have had plenty), will eventually lead to corruption is false. Anything that has never happened over the course of thousands of years is not really a "likely" outcome.

The argument the Tau are not protected the same way and are thus more likely to succumb to Chaos is true, but The Emperor is more likely to succumb to Chaos than the Grey Knights.

No he isn't. The Emperor was called the Anathema for a reason.

I'm going to go with Chaos right now. We don't know enough (or I don't) about how the Tau work to say otherwise.

iproxtaco wrote:No he isn't. The Emperor was called the Anathema for a reason.

The Emperor created the Primarchs in his image. The Primarchs fell.

No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

The Emperor is more likely to fall to Chaos.

Haha

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No he isn't. The Emperor was called the Anathema for a reason.

The Emperor created the Primarchs in his image. The Primarchs fell.

No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

The Emperor is more likely to fall to Chaos.

Haha

The grey knights geneseed are taken from the emperor.

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No he isn't. The Emperor was called the Anathema for a reason.

The Emperor created the Primarchs in his image. The Primarchs fell.

No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

The Emperor is more likely to fall to Chaos.

Haha

Grey Knights bear his Geenseed, they are like Primarchs only less powerful and had actual anti-Chaos training.
And the day the Emperor fall to Chaos is a day I bound my legs to the metal ball and drop that ball from the bridge in to the river.

CpatTom wrote:
My point still stands. The basis that Time and Exposure to Chaos (of which I assume the Grey Knights have had plenty), will eventually lead to corruption is false. Anything that has never happened over the course of thousands of years is not really a "likely" outcome.

Fine. Allow me to rephrase my argument; given time and exposure and no physical or spirtual protection, the chances are some Tau will succomb to Chaos.

Besides, we know that the Grey Knights are a thousand Astartes among a million Astartes. They only take the best. The Tau? They have to take the entire species, the weak and the strong. The Grey Knights don't have anyone who is weak.

The argument the Tau are not protected the same way and are thus more likely to succumb to Chaos is true, but The Emperor is more likely to succumb to Chaos than the Grey Knights.

Not really. Chaos has little to tempt the Emperor with, same as the Grey Knights, and the Emperor can protect Himself in some of the same ways (i.e. Psychically).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Fine. Allow me to rephrase my argument; given time and exposure and no physical or spirtual protection, the chances are some Tau will succomb to Chaos.

Besides, we know that the Grey Knights are a thousand Astartes among a million Astartes. They only take the best. The Tau? They have to take the entire species, the weak and the strong. The Grey Knights don't have anyone who is weak.

Agreed.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Not really. Chaos has little to tempt the Emperor with, same as the Grey Knights, and the Emperor can protect Himself in some of the same ways (i.e. Psychically).

(For arguments sake ) The Emperor has much to be tempted with. The Salvation of man? The goal he has worked an incalculable number of life times in hopes to accomplish, and which is now on the brink of failure? That seems like a pretty big thing to tempt the Emperor with.

The Grey Knights are protected by their faith in the Emperor.

When the God of Man is held on the precipice of his own death, who shall the Immortal Emperor place his faith in?

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No he isn't. The Emperor was called the Anathema for a reason.

The Emperor created the Primarchs in his image. The Primarchs fell.

No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

The Emperor is more likely to fall to Chaos.

Haha

The Emperor had an intuitive understanding of the Warp, which he denied to his sons. He also knew exactly what the Chaos gods were, since he apparently witnessed the births of all of them. His sons were designed to display specific facets of him anyway, not the whole picture, which made it far easier for them to be corrupted, since they had a singular aim, whether it be the ambition of Horus or the quest for perfection of Fulgrim.

CpatTom wrote:
(For arguments sake ) The Emperor has much to be tempted with. The Salvation of man? The goal he has worked an incalculable number of life times in hopes to accomplish, and which is now on the brink of failure? That seems like a pretty big thing to tempt the Emperor with.

The Grey Knights are protected by their faith in the Emperor.

When the God of Man is held on the precipice of his own death, who shall the Immortal Emperor place his faith in?

The Emperor knows that it is a lie, though. It's hard to tempt someone who knows that you're just trying to screw them over. The temptation is theoretically there, but I doubt the Emperor really feels it.

Who knows? Himself? The fact that He is the only real hope for mankind at this point? Humanity itself? The fact that He knows that the Chaos Gods are His enemy?

The Greater Good is a philosophy, except for the Tau themselves as its been suggested that Ethereals have a kind of innate pheromone control over the Tau species. Outsider of that, races need to be convinced logically. Thus while the Tau themselves are fanatical about it, other races like the Kroot don't seem to be nearly as devoted (i.e. many Kroot are mercenaries and human defectors aren't screaming FOR THE GREATER GOOD).

Chaos you essentially give your soul to and there's really no going back once you're hooked in. Chaos is extremely easy to fall into and is a much faster process then the Greater Good (again, except for the Tau themselves). Traitor Guardsmen of Chaos come off as much more fanatical then Gues'va fighting for the Tau.

It also depends just on what you're imagining Chaos to do. since the Tau have no psykers or substantial connection ot the warp that we are aware of, it is nigh-impossible that they will be used as "gateways" - eg possessed in the way Psykers can be possessed. They probably are more immune to the subtle corrupting whispers of the warp (voices, etc.) compared to, say, Humans.

but that doesn't translate into 100% immunity. If they get caught in a warp storm or a warp rift, if they handle Chaos artifacts, etc. they likley can be tainted and corrupted in a phyiscal sense - any realspace matter is vulnerable to that sort of warp influence, even inert matter and it is unlikely that the Tau would be immune to that (resistant, maybe.) Likewise, we know psychic powers can affect them directly (eg no immunity there) so they can be psychically controlled/clouded/influenced that way as well. And if a tau were so inclined they probably could sign themselves over for power or such (EG sorcery, although tau society is unlikely to produce anyone who would willingly pursue that.)

so in short they're protected in some ways, but they're more vulnerable in others, especially since they don't seem to really believe in the existence of Chaos or Chaos Gods.

Yea IA states the IoM has already tested and falsified the claimes that Tau are controlled by pheramones ir psykers. The Tau are just sad, lonely, sane, blue people in a universe of crazy races bent on murder.

Ethereal control is alot like Ork reproduction.. the fluff (which is to say, those who write the fluff) tend to make up their own minds as to its truth or falsehood. There are still bits of fluff that insist the Orks really don't reproduce via spores despite the fact a good many sources have by now stated they do.

And that could be the most annoying part of it all.

One of the more bizarre ideas is that they aren't controlled per se by pheremones, but perhaps by some technology that emulates pheremones - some sort of microscopic machinery, or perhaps some sort of peculiar aura or emanation. Just because it isn't warp based does not mean the ethereal doesn't emit something tangible that can cause effects (Necrons have all sorts of weird non-warp field effects that can affect things in different ways. Including the guass and disruption fields.) '

Or it could be something realyl wacky, like microscopic mind control machines that infest and affec tthe tau directly.

All we really know is that Tau can get extremely disciplined and focused when an Ethereal gets involved, that they regard Ethereals with a near-religious sort of awe and obedience (total obedience), and they will go to any lengths to protect or save an Ethereal (absurd degrees.) In some ways this makes me think the Tau are more like the Jem'Hadar from Star Trek. The perverse part of me then considers Ethereals to just be tha tau equivalent of crack.

As a Tau player I have always felt genuenly offended by caims the Tau are controled in any way. I believe they are simply like humans, and just revear their leaders, like the native americans reveared their kings.

I don't know why players of other races rage that the tau aren't grim and dark enough.

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:As a Tau player I have always felt genuenly offended by caims the Tau are controled in any way. I believe they are simply like humans, and just revear their leaders, like the native americans reveared their kings.

I don't know why players of other races rage that the tau aren't grim and dark enough.

Tau are very Grimdark, they just like to hide under a Noblebright shell.

Again I would have to dissagree they are any amount of evil. I mean nature is gim and dark, but it's not evil.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Tau were never modified or engineered to my knowledge, so their connection to the warp isnt as strong or natural the way it is in humans, Orks or Eldar. That gives them significant protection from their souls being taken and used as "gateways" via daemonic possession.

They can, however, still be corrupted, mutated, etc. by proximity to the warping power sof Chaos, or corrupted by physical contact or other means (if even inert matter can be, I'd be safe to say the tau can.) Likely the Tau's fervent belief in the Greater Good and Ethereals (who are baiscally godlike figures to them for all intents and purposes) provides whatever shielding they may still need (although again they're as vulnerable to physical corruption as anyone/anything else is.) Belief is what matters most - whether it is in a religious figure or a principle makes no difference methinks. It's at least consistnet with the depiction in the Fire Warrior novel (which is probably my favorite Tau-oriented novel.)

If the warp is the ocean, with sentient beings being the surface level, the tau race are a puddle of urine on the other side of the world






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coolyo294 wrote:

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:As a Tau player I have always felt genuenly offended by caims the Tau are controled in any way. I believe they are simply like humans, and just revear their leaders, like the native americans reveared their kings.

I don't know why players of other races rage that the tau aren't grim and dark enough.

Tau are very Grimdark, they just like to hide under a Noblebright shell.

LIKE A COSMIC TURTLE

Chaos turned half the Space Marine Legions against the Emperor and they hold a lot of demon worlds. Chaos wins. Tau meanwhile is evil like Joseph Stalin evil and not so aluring.

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No he isn't. The Emperor was called the Anathema for a reason.

The Emperor created the Primarchs in his image. The Primarchs fell.

No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

The Emperor is more likely to fall to Chaos.

Haha

He also created the Grey Knights in his image, their geneseed was derived from the Emperor, they were gifted all of His knowledge on the warp.
I have a feeling you're thinking of the Emperor as just another human but with some nifty psyker powers. The fact that he was contacted by the Gods speaks for itself. Whatever they offered was refused.

iproxtaco wrote:
He also created the Grey Knights in his image, their geneseed was derived from the Emperor, they were gifted all of His knowledge on the warp.
I have a feeling you're thinking of the Emperor as just another human but with some nifty psyker powers. The fact that he was contacted by the Gods speaks for itself. Whatever they offered was refused.

His geneseed is conjecture (albeit very likely, but not a definitive yes, gifted his flesh or some nonsense, gotcha, that line in the GK dex is open to interpretation: if there is more evidence to this please bring it to my attention so I might revise my argument)

That is exactly what the Emperor is, despite what Lorgar and his band of religious idiots wanted to think and what the HLoT might want the regular man to believe, The Emperor was a Man (again, the greatest powers ever condensed into a single material existence, but still man)

Was whatever was offered refused, or like the previous two points is an outcome being assumed here? I believe it is a HH BL thing somewhere about The Dr. Dahli-Franken-Emperor in his Everest lab doing some Juu Juu, but I have no knowledge on this point.

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
He also created the Grey Knights in his image, their geneseed was derived from the Emperor, they were gifted all of His knowledge on the warp.
I have a feeling you're thinking of the Emperor as just another human but with some nifty psyker powers. The fact that he was contacted by the Gods speaks for itself. Whatever they offered was refused.

His geneseed is conjecture (albeit very likely, but not a definitive yes, gifted his flesh or some nonsense, gotcha, that line in the GK dex is open to interpretation: if there is more evidence to this please bring it to my attention so I might revise my argument).

"Where the other Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that came before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul." - Page 7.
Frankly, it's conjecture to suggest anything else. Their gene-seed was derived from the Emperor.

That is exactly what the Emperor is, despite what Lorgar and his band of religious idiots wanted to think and what the HLoT might want the regular man to believe, The Emperor was a Man (again, the greatest powers ever condensed into a single material existence, but still man)

We know otherwise. He was an amalgamation of Terran Shamans, he speaks to the Inquisitor Draco in a multitude of voices, each saying different things and conversing with each other. The Emperor is more than just a really powerful human Psyker.

Was whatever was offered refused, or like the previous two points is an outcome being assumed here? I believe it is a HH BL thing somewhere about The Dr. Dahli-Franken-Emperor in his Everest lab doing some Juu Juu, but I have no knowledge on this point.

Woot? The Chaos Gods gave him the means to create the Primarchs on the basis that he enlighten humanity to the worship of Chaos. The Emperor took what they offered, and then refused to fulfill his side of the bargain. And he's called the Anathema by Chaos. He's also been exposed to the Warp and Chaos more than anyone.

At this point I think it is almost gurnateed that the emporer will fall to chaos.

The emporer is not familiar with being truely mortal and as the golden throne continues to fail you know nurgle will make him the offer of continued life as long as he serves nurgle.

Fluff wise it would be amazing what would happen to the universe if the emporer accepted. Might be powerful enough to actually over throw nurgle and such things like that.

Erm, no, he wont accept. The Emperor hasn't spent the last 10,000 years protecting humanity from Chaos to then damn the entire race in a second. Of course, this is all under the assumption that Nurgle with offer the Emperor anything. Nurgle will not. They called Him the Anathema, he is literally the opposite of Chaos, they despise the Emperor, and vice versa.

iproxtaco wrote:
"Where the other Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that came before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul." - Page 7.
Frankly, it's conjecture to suggest anything else. Their gene-seed was derived from the Emperor.

The gift of the Emperor could be a resistance to Chaos, or improved psyker abilities, or yadayada.... It's a possible interpretation, and it can be interpreted as meaning The Emperor, (althoug not an Adeptus Astartes (thus lacking the proper organs) Used his gene seed (the one he created with his mind (which again, is possible)) To create the GK. Conjecture. That is all. Not: "one without the flaws of those that came before, and which" was the Emperors own gene seed created for the GK.

Not to mention you took the quote out of context, which IIRC is referencing the other chapters of the time having used Tithed Gene Seed, not new special issue GK gene seed.

We know otherwise. He was an amalgamation of Terran Shamans, he speaks to the Inquisitor Draco in a multitude of voices, each saying different things and conversing with each other. The Emperor is more than just a really powerful human Psyker.

Havent read this (it was published when i was two).
Terran Shamans=Human Psykers. Good logic there Russ.

Even in this scenario, he may be more than one human consciousness, but people with multiple personalities are still people. He occupies a singular form, thus he is a person. or Maybe he just went crazy sitting on the Throne for too long. All those voices could be the Emperor's New Imaginary Friends.

Unless you are saying he is a warp being, that is an interesting theory, but I already have a thread about that idea running concurrently with this one.

Not really. Chaos has little to tempt the Emperor with, same as the Grey Knights, and the Emperor can protect Himself in some of the same ways (i.e. Psychically).

Woot? The Chaos Gods gave him the means to create the Primarchs on the basis that he enlighten humanity to the worship of Chaos. The Emperor took what they offered, and then refused to fulfill his side of the bargain. And he's called the Anathema by Chaos. He's also been exposed to the Warp and Chaos more than anyone.

I would like to point this out. Please clarify. So, they have little to tempt him with, except what they already succeeded to tempt him with? Because, you do realize, the Emperor did fulfill his end of the bargain in this scenario. Humanity does on a very large scale worship Chaos.

The Emperor is willing to make deals with the devil, and the devil always gets his due.

Connor MacLeod wrote:It also depends just on what you're imagining Chaos to do. since the Tau have no psykers or substantial connection ot the warp that we are aware of, it is nigh-impossible that they will be used as "gateways" - eg possessed in the way Psykers can be possessed. They probably are more immune to the subtle corrupting whispers of the warp (voices, etc.) compared to, say, Humans.

but that doesn't translate into 100% immunity. If they get caught in a warp storm or a warp rift, if they handle Chaos artifacts, etc. they likley can be tainted and corrupted in a phyiscal sense - any realspace matter is vulnerable to that sort of warp influence, even inert matter and it is unlikely that the Tau would be immune to that (resistant, maybe.) Likewise, we know psychic powers can affect them directly (eg no immunity there) so they can be psychically controlled/clouded/influenced that way as well. And if a tau were so inclined they probably could sign themselves over for power or such (EG sorcery, although tau society is unlikely to produce anyone who would willingly pursue that.)

so in short they're protected in some ways, but they're more vulnerable in others, especially since they don't seem to really believe in the existence of Chaos or Chaos Gods.

Good explanation.
So from my understanding, physically the Tau are corruptable, as chaos affects all realspace matter. But mentally, and soul-wise, they are immune as they are not attuned to the warp as much as the other races. Plus with all the etherals and their conditioning

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
"Where the other Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that came before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul." - Page 7.
Frankly, it's conjecture to suggest anything else. Their gene-seed was derived from the Emperor.

The gift of the Emperor could be a resistance to Chaos, or improved psyker abilities, or yadayada.... It's a possible interpretation, and it can be interpreted as meaning The Emperor, (althoug not an Adeptus Astartes (thus lacking the proper organs) Used his gene seed (the one he created with his mind (which again, is possible)) To create the GK. Conjecture. That is all. Not: "one without the flaws of those that came before, and which" was the Emperors own gene seed created for the GK.

Not to mention you took the quote out of context, which IIRC is referencing the other chapters of the time having used Tithed Gene Seed, not new special issue GK gene seed.

We're talking about the gene-seed. That's the context, which this quote was firmly within. It references a new gene-seed that was derived from the Emperor. There's no dodging the issue here, deal with it.

We know otherwise. He was an amalgamation of Terran Shamans, he speaks to the Inquisitor Draco in a multitude of voices, each saying different things and conversing with each other. The Emperor is more than just a really powerful human Psyker.

Havent read this (it was published when i was two).
Terran Shamans=Human Psykers. Good logic there Russ.

No way? Yes, they were human before.

Even in this scenario, he may be more than one human consciousness, but people with multiple personalities are still people. He occupies a singular form, thus he is a person. or Maybe he just went crazy sitting on the Throne for too long. All those voices could be the Emperor's New Imaginary Friends.

Unless you are saying he is a warp being, that is an interesting theory, but I already have a thread about that idea running concurrently with this one.

Then he's not 'a' man, but an amalgamation of human minds forming a gestalt consciousness, so not what you think he is.

Not really. Chaos has little to tempt the Emperor with, same as the Grey Knights, and the Emperor can protect Himself in some of the same ways (i.e. Psychically).

Woot? The Chaos Gods gave him the means to create the Primarchs on the basis that he enlighten humanity to the worship of Chaos. The Emperor took what they offered, and then refused to fulfill his side of the bargain. And he's called the Anathema by Chaos. He's also been exposed to the Warp and Chaos more than anyone.

I would like to point this out. Please clarify. So, they have little to tempt him with, except what they already succeeded to tempt him with? Because, you do realize, the Emperor did fulfill his end of the bargain in this scenario. Humanity does on a very large scale worship Chaos.

They offered something, he took it, and told them screw themselves. I'd hardly call that success in tempting Him. And no, the Emperor had no intention of fulfilling his end of the bargain. In fact, he went and did the exact opposite of what the Chaos Gods wanted him to do.

How can a collection of deities weaker than he is corrupt the Emperor?

iproxtaco wrote:
We're talking about the gene-seed. That's the context, which this quote was firmly within. It references a new gene-seed that was derived from the Emperor. There's no dodging the issue here, deal with it.

This: "... derived from the Emperor" is an assumption that "...carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul", the same thing. It is very likely it is derived from the Emperor (and it is my interpretation); however, stating it as the only interpretation is wrong.
Again, they could be given some element of a gene seed allowing for incredible ability to withstand corruption of flesh and soul. Does not have to be the same reason the Emprah is resistant to Chaos.

Then he's not 'a' man, but an amalgamation of human minds forming a gestalt consciousness, so not what you think he is.

A man can be home to more than one mind. The Lexicanum does touch on this subject, with the Shamans killing themselves, and what not. What exactly did they call their creation the Emperor? Oh, right, "The New Man". So despite the fact that he is nutjob (HERESY!) with multiple personalities, he is still a man. 40,000 years is long enough for imaginary friends to move in, get married, have kids, raise kids, have grandkids, and die. If imaginary friends died.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind#.TqtoqfSIk8k

They offered something, he took it, and told them screw themselves. I'd hardly call that success in tempting Him. And no, the Emperor had no intention of fulfilling his end of the bargain. In fact, he went and did the exact opposite of what the Chaos Gods wanted him to do.

What was that? Create an Empire based on faith and oppression no longer capable of sustaining its own existence? Yeah, that must have been the Emperors goal all along (Dark Age of Technology making people weak). Chaos is winning in 40k. Not the IoM.

Void__Dragon wrote:How can a collection of deities weaker than he is corrupt the Emperor?

How do flowing rivers wear away a stone?

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
We're talking about the gene-seed. That's the context, which this quote was firmly within. It references a new gene-seed that was derived from the Emperor. There's no dodging the issue here, deal with it.

This: "... derived from the Emperor" is an assumption that "...carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul", the same thing. It is very likely it is derived from the Emperor (and it is my interpretation); however, stating it as the only interpretation is wrong.

No, that's the only interpretation alright, I even double checked. It was special new gene-seed cooked up especially for the Grey Knights, and it contained part of the Emperor in order for them to be better at their assigned task. What was that task again?

Again, they could be given some element of a gene seed allowing for incredible ability to withstand corruption of flesh and soul. Does not have to be the same reason the Emprah is resistant to Chaos.

It does.

Then he's not 'a' man, but an amalgamation of human minds forming a gestalt consciousness, so not what you think he is.

A man can be home to more than one mind. The Lexicanum does touch on this subject, with the Shamans killing themselves, and what not. What exactly did they call their creation the Emperor? Oh, right, "The New Man". So despite the fact that he is nutjob (HERESY!) with multiple personalities, he is still a man. 40,000 years is long enough for imaginary friends to move in, get married, have kids, raise kids, have grandkids, and die. If imaginary friends died.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind#.TqtoqfSIk8k

And yet, the actual evidence tells us that the Emperor isn't just a single mind. He isn't a human in any form we know.

They offered something, he took it, and told them screw themselves. I'd hardly call that success in tempting Him. And no, the Emperor had no intention of fulfilling his end of the bargain. In fact, he went and did the exact opposite of what the Chaos Gods wanted him to do.

What was that? Create an Empire based on faith and oppression no longer capable of sustaining its own existence? Yeah, that must have been the Emperors goal all along (Dark Age of Technology making people weak). Chaos is winning in 40k. Not the IoM.

Is it an empire based on faith towards Chaos? Nope.

Void__Dragon wrote:How can a collection of deities weaker than he is corrupt the Emperor?

How do flowing rivers wear away a stone?

This formatting stuff isnt easy for me.

iproxtaco wrote: No, that's the only interpretation alright, I even double checked. It was special new gene-seed cooked up especially for the Grey Knights, and it contained part of the Emperor in order for them to be better at their assigned task. What was that task again?

Fair enough, English is my second language after argument, so I very well could be wrong.

It does.

Cool story

And yet, the actual evidence tells us that the Emperor isn't just a single mind. He isn't a human in any form we know.

The evidence with the squats running around in it?

If he isn't Human he should be purged. Just like those Space Marines, not human giants.

Is it an empire based on faith towards Chaos? Nope.

The direction is hardly relevant when it all feeds into the same Warp.

Depends on the permeability of the stone, otherwise, the river will flow round it. See where I'm going with this?

Yes, erosion is a lie being sold to elementary school children in a hopes that some will find geology interesting.

CpatTom wrote:This formatting stuff isnt easy for me.

iproxtaco wrote: No, that's the only interpretation alright, I even double checked. It was special new gene-seed cooked up especially for the Grey Knights, and it contained part of the Emperor in order for them to be better at their assigned task. What was that task again?

Fair enough, English is my second language after argument, so I very well could be wrong.

You are wrong.

It does.

Cool story

Cool story bro.

And yet, the actual evidence tells us that the Emperor isn't just a single mind. He isn't a human in any form we know.

The evidence with the squats running around in it?

If he isn't Human he should be purged. Just like those Space Marines, not human giants.

Nope.

The majority of the Imperium already thinks he's a God, and therefore not human. Oh, and Astartes are still of the homo-sapiens species.

Is it an empire based on faith towards Chaos? Nope.

The direction is hardly relevant when it all feeds into the same Warp.

Ok then. No not really, I think it matters just a bit whether the Imperium worships Chaos or not, considering not every little act humanity does feeds them, else they wouldn't need vast armies the wreak destruction as a form of worship.

Depends on the permeability of the stone, otherwise, the river will flow round it. See where I'm going with this?

Yes, erosion is a lie being sold to elementary school children in a hopes that some will find geology interesting.

It's Geography actually matey, geology is for weak-minded fools.

iproxtaco wrote:You are wrong.

Good thing we established that.

Cool story bro

Cool story broseph

The majority of the Imperium already thinks he's a God, and therefore not human. Oh, and Astartes are still of the homo-sapiens species.

Nope, can not reproduce with other Homo Sapiens. By definition not Homo Sapien.

Ok then. No not really, I think it matters just a bit whether the Imperium worships Chaos or not, considering not every little act humanity does feeds them, else they wouldn't need vast armies the wreak destruction as a form of worship.

Just all the acts that the IoM is engaged in. Good one Emperor, you really got one over on Chaos with those primarchs you stole didnt you.

It's Geography actually matey, geology is for weak-minded fools.

I don't need any maps. I have an excellent sense of direction, thank you very much.

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:You are wrong.

Good thing we established that.

Hmm, indeed.

Cool story bro

Cool story broseph

Cool story brosephus.

The majority of the Imperium already thinks he's a God, and therefore not human. Oh, and Astartes are still of the homo-sapiens species.

Nope, can not reproduce with other Homo Sapiens. By definition not Homo Sapien.

Organisms can be rendered infertile.

Ok then. No not really, I think it matters just a bit whether the Imperium worships Chaos or not, considering not every little act humanity does feeds them, else they wouldn't need vast armies the wreak destruction as a form of worship.

Just all the acts that the IoM is engaged in. Good one Emperor, you really got one over on Chaos with those primarchs you stole didnt you.

+Yeah, I did, didn't I+

It's Geography actually matey, geology is for weak-minded fools.

I don't need any maps. I have an excellent sense of direction, thank you very much.

CpatTom wrote:Nope, can not reproduce with other Homo Sapiens. By definition not Homo Sapien.

Nor can some men who have taken one too many hits to the nuts.

Are they no longer Homo Sapien?

I now await a childish "lost his manhood" joke.

iproxtaco wrote:Hmm, indeed.

Yes, yes, quite good. Pass the tea.

Cool story brosephus.

Cool story, brewsephus.

Organisms can be rendered infertile.

The problem with Homo Astartes. Stupid mule people.

+Yeah, I did, didn't I+

While I've got your attention, would you like to buy my book on parenting?

That's orienteering, silly billy.

I know the Geographers tricks. Trying to use maps of my brain to trick me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Nope, can not reproduce with other Homo Sapiens. By definition not Homo Sapien.

Nor can some men who have taken one too many hits to the nuts.

Are they no longer Homo Sapien?

I now await a childish "lost his manhood" joke.

Haha, to tired for that. Damaged nuts, are just damaged, and with science could be repaired (or maybe replaced, but thats Bile wierd (make for a good horror movie though)

No "lost his manhood" joke?

Son I am disappoint. Thoroughly disappoint.

Void__Dragon wrote:No "lost his manhood" joke?

Son I am disappoint. Thoroughly disappoint.

Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

Welcome, brostantinople, to the meme.

CpatTom wrote:Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

It is done. You are ready.

I am so proud of you.

I figure I should probably point out that, this being my first vaguely on-topic post in the thread, to all but a Tau, the lure of Chaos is obviously stronger.

Void__Dragon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

It is done. You are ready.

I am so proud of you.

I figure I should probably point out that, this being my first vaguely on-topic post in the thread, to all but a Tau, the lure of Chaos is obviously stronger.

Without a doubt. I voted for Chaos. Brosenstien.

The Meme is a magical place.

CpatTom wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Why are you disappoint?

And how did you become this, disappoint?

Edit for search engines: Ah, the internet. And google. Memes...

It is done. You are ready.

I am so proud of you.

I figure I should probably point out that, this being my first vaguely on-topic post in the thread, to all but a Tau, the lure of Chaos is obviously stronger.

Without a doubt. I voted for Chaos. Brosenstien.

The Meme is a magical place.

Indeed it is, fratello.

Ok now, this is one of the strangest debates I have read so far...

Has this silliness about Grey Knights having Emperor's geneseed* existed before Ward got his paws on the fluff? I just remember source of GKs genessed being 'unknown' in the older fluff, sometimes theorised being from those members of the traitor legions who remained loyal while rest of their brethren turned to Chaos (Thus proving to be particularly resistant to corruption.)

BTW, This and the thread about Emperor's height has made me aware of a rather amusing phenomenon. In the fluff Emperor always insisted being just a man, and did not wish to be worshipped as a God. But his followers did not want to hear any of that, and after he was incapacitated, deified him anyway. I see the exact same thing happening with the fans (and even with some writers) they do not wish to see the Emperor as a man, but as a God. And once enough writers buy this, Emperor retroactively becomes God, thus making him wrong about his own godhood...


*(Why would Emperor even have geneseed? He is not a Primarch. And if he could have just created Space Marines out of his own flesh, why he did not do so before this? There had been no need for Primarchs.)


As for Tau, I'm sure they can be corrupted, it just does not happen to them so easily.

I always thought that the Grey Knight geneseed came from the tithes from chapters, but I don't think Ward brought the Emperor thing in.

If we're talking about the hold on the respective followers, then I'd say chaos, because the ethereals are more you want to do what they say(due to the aftershave/pheromones) but chaos is actually control of the mind.

Are they no longer Homo Sapien?

Homo Sapien Sapien...

We are not cave men.

DeffDred wrote:Homo Sapien Sapien...
We are not cave men.

I dunno about all that.

List of Tau that have used the Help of a Chaos God:

La'Kias( Fire Warrior Novel)

List of Chaos Space Marines/ Chaos Daemons that have converted to the greater good:

N/A


As much as I love my Tau, Chaos wins.

Crimson wrote:Has this silliness about Grey Knights having Emperor's geneseed* existed before Ward got his paws on the fluff? I just remember source of GKs genessed being 'unknown' in the older fluff, sometimes theorised being from those members of the traitor legions who remained loyal while rest of their brethren turned to Chaos (Thus proving to be particularly resistant to corruption.)

BTW, This and the thread about Emperor's height has made me aware of a rather amusing phenomenon. In the fluff Emperor always insisted being just a man, and did not wish to be worshipped as a God. But his followers did not want to hear any of that, and after he was incapacitated, deified him anyway. I see the exact same thing happening with the fans (and even with some writers) they do not wish to see the Emperor as a man, but as a God. And once enough writers buy this, Emperor retroactively becomes God, thus making him wrong about his own godhood...


*(Why would Emperor even have geneseed? He is not a Primarch. And if he could have just created Space Marines out of his own flesh, why he did not do so before this? There had been no need for Primarchs.)

As for Tau, I'm sure they can be corrupted, it just does not happen to them so easily.

Well I'm not arguing that he's a God, simply that he isn't a man in any form we know.

No one has gene-seed like you think, not even the Primarchs. The Emperor didn't take the gene-seed from the Primarchs like it was already there, ready to use. It's an artificial creation.

iproxtaco wrote:
No one has gene-seed like you think, not even the Primarchs. The Emperor didn't take the gene-seed from the Primarchs like it was already there, ready to use. It's an artificial creation.

Well, marines have progenitor glands, that produce geneseed. I assume the Primarchs had those as well, as they are super-marines.

Crimson wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No one has gene-seed like you think, not even the Primarchs. The Emperor didn't take the gene-seed from the Primarchs like it was already there, ready to use. It's an artificial creation.

Well, marines have progenitor glands, that produce geneseed. I assume the Primarchs had those as well, as they are super-marines.

Primarchs aren't just over-sized Astartes, and do not have Progenoids. Besides, the gland is an implant, the geneseed does not come pre-packaged, it must be gathered.

Theblitzkrieg wrote:Chaos turned half the Space Marine Legions against the Emperor and they hold a lot of demon worlds. Chaos wins. Tau meanwhile is evil like Joseph Stalin evil and not so aluring.

Actually, the tau worlds are to ultramar what ultramar is to the rest of the imperium. They don't have slaves performing physical labour, they have drones. They don't have enormours habs full of unimaginable corruption, they have low density, self sustaining cities surrounded by farm lands. when the population reaches a certain point, they make another city. When the planet has about a million, they take a new world.

The Empire is what the Imperium wishes it was, except for the only having 100 worlds part.

Chaos is a little like a virus where the GG is a idea. I'd also say they the two do not automatically rule the other out. Chaos for the grater good maybe?

nomotog wrote:Chaos is a little like a virus where the GG is a idea. I'd also say they the two do not automatically rule the other out. Chaos for the grater good maybe?

For the Greater Gods!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Theblitzkrieg wrote:Chaos turned half the Space Marine Legions against the Emperor and they hold a lot of demon worlds. Chaos wins. Tau meanwhile is evil like Joseph Stalin evil and not so aluring.

Actually, the tau worlds are to ultramar what ultramar is to the rest of the imperium. They don't have slaves performing physical labour, they have drones. They don't have enormours habs full of unimaginable corruption, they have low density, self sustaining cities surrounded by farm lands. when the population reaches a certain point, they make another city. When the planet has about a million, they take a new world.

The Empire is what the Imperium wishes it was, except for the only having 100 worlds part.

I have a feeling you're mixing your perception of Ultramar with any old story of a back-water Hive World. Ultrmar is not like you described it.

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure he was describing Tau worlds, not Ultramar.

He said that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like Ultramar is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultamar is a veritable paradise. People are efficient, the architecture is made of white marble and glass, it's a very, very nice place to live. Slaves do not exist, each and every person sees him/herself as an asset that takes great joy in performing tasks no matter how mundane, to the highest possible standard. The Tau worlds are most certainly not that much better. They're better on account of using drones as manual labor, but we know very little about Tau society. Are some people valued more than others? Is there such a thing as employment? Surely not every Fire Caste member is a Firewarrior or even fighting in the front lines, so there must be other jobs that they do that aren't involved with fighting.

iproxtaco wrote:He said that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like Ultramar is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultamar is a veritable paradise. People are efficient, the architecture is made of white marble and glass, it's a very, very nice place to live. Slaves do not exist, each and every person sees him/herself as an asset that takes great joy in performing tasks no matter how mundane, to the highest possible standard. The Tau worlds are most certainly not that much better. They're better on account of using drones as manual labor, but we know very little about Tau society. Are some people valued more than others? Is there such a thing as employment? Surely not every Fire Caste member is a Firewarrior or even fighting in the front lines, so there must be other jobs that they do that aren't involved with fighting.

I'm confused, are you saying that tau cites are paradise or are you saying something else?

Chaos. The Greater Good may be a strong belief its nothing compared to a emotion spawned, galaxy spanning religion with proof of their gods existence.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:He said that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like Ultramar is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultamar is a veritable paradise. People are efficient, the architecture is made of white marble and glass, it's a very, very nice place to live. Slaves do not exist, each and every person sees him/herself as an asset that takes great joy in performing tasks no matter how mundane, to the highest possible standard. The Tau worlds are most certainly not that much better. They're better on account of using drones as manual labor, but we know very little about Tau society. Are some people valued more than others? Is there such a thing as employment? Surely not every Fire Caste member is a Firewarrior or even fighting in the front lines, so there must be other jobs that they do that aren't involved with fighting.

I'm confused, are you saying that tau cites are paradise or are you saying something else?

Kind of. Every Tau undoubtedly have a much higher standard of living compared to the vast majority of the Imperium. I'm not convinced of the statement that Tau worlds are to Ultramar like it is to the rest of the Imperium. Ultramar is idyllic, in this galaxy where the prospects of the average human is servitor, guardsmen, or manual labour, Ultramar is a paradise. It's what the Imperium was envisioned as by the Emperor, Guilliman took that to heart and created the perfect Imperium. Like I said, we know so little of Tau society, and that I can see them haveing a very easy existence, with so many automated systems, I don't think the difference is huge, if there is one. A big part of it is the attitudes of the people. In Ultramar each person values his role in the upkeep of the Emperor's domain, has hope for the future, that's ingrained into society, that everyone should emulate a perfect example of efficiency and compliance. So, people are happy with their situation. I imagine this respect the Tau are the same, but I think the difference lies in how the higher echelons of governance value each person. Are all Tau valued the same? We don't know, but at least people in Ultramar are all valued members of society.

The Tau generally have a better standard of living in the sense everyone's basic necessities are taken care of, and they have room for art, trade, etc. so long as it doesn't break caste or violate the Greater Good. This also explains why their technology is better as welll - not only do they not have an AdMech (which actually is sort of a necessity for the Imperium, given that human technology has a tendency to get possessed or corrupted) but their "greater good" attitude makes working together easier.
It also helps that Tau as a race are designed to maximize biological utility - they have short childhoods and short old ages before death, and they have a long "productive" lifetime of 40 years or so (humans live longer, but the first 10-15 years aren't of much use, and the last 15-30 aren't going to be either.) That means you don't waste decades of resources on the parts of Tau life that are least productive (not many old folks to support, or children either.)

They are also a highly regulated and tightly controlled society. They practice genetic and reproductive management of the populace (especially for the tau races - this seems to be the origin of the "sterilization" thing - its a population control measure for them, as abhorrent as it is to us.) and they pretty much regulate the purpose of everyone in society (everyone has a place, and everyone should be happy with that place.) The Tau are (cuturally and genetically) conditioned to be content with that, and their belief in the greater good coupled by the presence of Ethereals reinforces that. They believe in the group as a whole over the individual, they will lack the sorts of petty emotions and negative feelings that can give Chaos an in, etc. There are limits though - the Ethereals are essential to reinforce and maintain the cultural and genetic side, without them bolstering it it will fade and the tau can risk falling into disunity (as noted in Mark of the Xenos). It's also why isolated tau like Kais (especialyl who have doubts and insecurities - Kais was in a way sort of an exception to the Tau way of life I think) was vulnerable to Chaos.

What it comes down to is Tau society asks the person to trade freedom for security and a place - you basically give up your ability to choose (not that you had much in the Imperium unless you were rich, but the potential is there regardless) so that you can have regular meals, a regular job, and are protected from threats. In return the tau expect you to toe the line, be happy with what you do and don't make trouble. And if you aren't happy well.. too fricking bad. They can and will make you be happy.

Now this isn't a matter of "good/bad" - that's going to be more of a subjective, personal assessment (some people will value freedom over security, or vice versa.) and the Tau doing things their way does not automatically make them objectively "evil" (otherwise the xenophobic, enslaving, and theocratic totalitarian practice of the Imperium are the same.) but from their viewpoint it is right and proper (for the greater good). Of course, it doesn't exactly make them white hats either, although they're still a force for order, and therefore arguably much better than Chaos.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The Tau generally have a better standard of living in the sense everyone's basic necessities are taken care of, and they have room for art, trade, etc. so long as it doesn't break caste or violate the Greater Good. This also explains why their technology is better as welll - not only do they not have an AdMech (which actually is sort of a necessity for the Imperium, given that human technology has a tendency to get possessed or corrupted) but their "greater good" attitude makes working together easier.
It also helps that Tau as a race are designed to maximize biological utility - they have short childhoods and short old ages before death, and they have a long "productive" lifetime of 40 years or so (humans live longer, but the first 10-15 years aren't of much use, and the last 15-30 aren't going to be either.) That means you don't waste decades of resources on the parts of Tau life that are least productive (not many old folks to support, or children either.)

They are also a highly regulated and tightly controlled society. They practice genetic and reproductive management of the populace (especially for the tau races - this seems to be the origin of the "sterilization" thing - its a population control measure for them, as abhorrent as it is to us.) and they pretty much regulate the purpose of everyone in society (everyone has a place, and everyone should be happy with that place.) The Tau are (cuturally and genetically) conditioned to be content with that, and their belief in the greater good coupled by the presence of Ethereals reinforces that. They believe in the group as a whole over the individual, they will lack the sorts of petty emotions and negative feelings that can give Chaos an in, etc. There are limits though - the Ethereals are essential to reinforce and maintain the cultural and genetic side, without them bolstering it it will fade and the tau can risk falling into disunity (as noted in Mark of the Xenos). It's also why isolated tau like Kais (especialyl who have doubts and insecurities - Kais was in a way sort of an exception to the Tau way of life I think) was vulnerable to Chaos.

What it comes down to is Tau society asks the person to trade freedom for security and a place - you basically give up your ability to choose (not that you had much in the Imperium unless you were rich, but the potential is there regardless) so that you can have regular meals, a regular job, and are protected from threats. In return the tau expect you to toe the line, be happy with what you do and don't make trouble. And if you aren't happy well.. too fricking bad. They can and will make you be happy.

Now this isn't a matter of "good/bad" - that's going to be more of a subjective, personal assessment (some people will value freedom over security, or vice versa.) and the Tau doing things their way does not automatically make them objectively "evil" (otherwise the xenophobic, enslaving, and theocratic totalitarian practice of the Imperium are the same.) but from their viewpoint it is right and proper (for the greater good). Of course, it doesn't exactly make them white hats either, although they're still a force for order, and therefore arguably much better than Chaos.

Actually, that was really well said. *gentlemanly clap*

Connor MacLeod wrote:The Tau generally have a better standard of living in the sense everyone's basic necessities are taken care of, and they have room for art, trade, etc. so long as it doesn't break caste or violate the Greater Good. This also explains why their technology is better as welll - not only do they not have an AdMech (which actually is sort of a necessity for the Imperium, given that human technology has a tendency to get possessed or corrupted) but their "greater good" attitude makes working together easier.
It also helps that Tau as a race are designed to maximize biological utility - they have short childhoods and short old ages before death, and they have a long "productive" lifetime of 40 years or so (humans live longer, but the first 10-15 years aren't of much use, and the last 15-30 aren't going to be either.) That means you don't waste decades of resources on the parts of Tau life that are least productive (not many old folks to support, or children either.)

They are also a highly regulated and tightly controlled society. They practice genetic and reproductive management of the populace (especially for the tau races - this seems to be the origin of the "sterilization" thing - its a population control measure for them, as abhorrent as it is to us.) and they pretty much regulate the purpose of everyone in society (everyone has a place, and everyone should be happy with that place.) The Tau are (cuturally and genetically) conditioned to be content with that, and their belief in the greater good coupled by the presence of Ethereals reinforces that. They believe in the group as a whole over the individual, they will lack the sorts of petty emotions and negative feelings that can give Chaos an in, etc. There are limits though - the Ethereals are essential to reinforce and maintain the cultural and genetic side, without them bolstering it it will fade and the tau can risk falling into disunity (as noted in Mark of the Xenos). It's also why isolated tau like Kais (especialyl who have doubts and insecurities - Kais was in a way sort of an exception to the Tau way of life I think) was vulnerable to Chaos.

What it comes down to is Tau society asks the person to trade freedom for security and a place - you basically give up your ability to choose (not that you had much in the Imperium unless you were rich, but the potential is there regardless) so that you can have regular meals, a regular job, and are protected from threats. In return the tau expect you to toe the line, be happy with what you do and don't make trouble. And if you aren't happy well.. too fricking bad. They can and will make you be happy.

Now this isn't a matter of "good/bad" - that's going to be more of a subjective, personal assessment (some people will value freedom over security, or vice versa.) and the Tau doing things their way does not automatically make them objectively "evil" (otherwise the xenophobic, enslaving, and theocratic totalitarian practice of the Imperium are the same.) but from their viewpoint it is right and proper (for the greater good). Of course, it doesn't exactly make them white hats either, although they're still a force for order, and therefore arguably much better than Chaos.

Are there any sources that show Tau being forced into the fold? I know there are a few leaders like Brightsword and Farsight who forsake the Greater Good, but are there any times when the regular Tau Joe doesnt (at the very least think) want to do there work for the Greater Good?

CpatTom wrote:
Are there any sources that show Tau being forced into the fold? I know there are a few leaders like Brightsword and Farsight who forsake the Greater Good, but are there any times when the regular Tau Joe doesnt (at the very least think) want to do there work for the Greater Good?

It's a line in the codex talking about how some species are draw into peace talks under threat of arm. It's one mention that easily gets ignored. I didn't notice it myself till someone pointed it out to me. Then i was like . Unless your talking about the tau species, then there is really only one (named) rebel tau. Most tau like/love working for the GG. Even brightsword he just got a little carried away.

CpatTom wrote:Are there any sources that show Tau being forced into the fold? I know there are a few leaders like Brightsword and Farsight who forsake the Greater Good, but are there any times when the regular Tau Joe doesnt (at the very least think) want to do there work for the Greater Good?

I dont think there is any coercion involved. From their point of view, anyone who does not accept the greater good, or who actively opposes it, is unenlightened and barbaric and backward. They need (and will) be brought into it by any means neccessary. For the tau themselves I doubt it ever comes up. Cultural pressures, educational propoganda and quite simply the way they are all seem to go towards creating the sort of conformity that holds Tau society together in the presence of Ethereals. Tau society is interesting in that the tau themselves, a a race have virutally no crime - they view crime as antisocial behaviour and those who have antisocial or aberrant behaviour need "help".

The fire warrior novel has some interesting comments in this regard.

FW, Page 21

Kais said nothing, sinking back into his deployment seat in astonishment at El’Lusha’s open disapproval of his own superiors. Had a shas’la ever dared express such sedition they could be guaranteed an intensive course in mental correction at the very least, not that any were foolish enough to do so.

FW, Page 56

The very existence of an edifice designed solely for the incarceration of the socially incompatible was beyond Lusha’s understanding. On T’au those few who failed to conform were considered worthy of sympathy and help, not punishment. He dismissed again the illogic of their conventions and regarded the brooding construct dispassionately.

FW, Page 120

Four tau’cyrs of policing the virtually crime-free streets of T’au, marching along its polished thoroughfares to protect its bright towers and domes from the terrors of antisocial behaviour.

the short of it is: Any tau who showed sign of straying from the "Greater Good" line too much would probably be 'corrected' - much in the same way you would fix a malfunctioning or broken machine, so it can continue to do its duty.
What's more, the bulk of the 'greater good' stuff - the discipline, the utter loyalty (especially to Ethereals), etc. is bound into the tau at the cultural or genetic level. The sort of thing that might make them want to break caste or not follow the greater good would be, to them, mental illness or sign of an actual inherent defect that needed guidance and correction. We have this from Deathwatch RPG:

Mark of the Xenos, page 6 wrote:
the Hunter Cadre, a group of Fire Warriors who serve together and are linked by unbreakable bonds of loyalty and duty. This in itself is not too different from the codes that bind such warriors as the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, but it is a bond ingrained not by tradition or psycho-conditioning, but, apparently, by genetics. Fire Warriors possess an innate sense of their place within the Greater Good, which is magnified by the presence of a member of the Ethereal Caste to extraordinary levels.

Now, before the outrage begins, I'm going to point out that what I said are not an effort to portray the Tau as being "lol evil" or "Tau suck" - this is simply how they are, and this is completely consistent with their mindset and beliefs insofar as it pertains to the greater good. The Tau view it as their solemn duty to share the Greater Good with the rest of the galaxy, because they believe that it will solve any and all problems. If people do not WANT to be in the Greater Good, it simply means they don't understand or really know where their best interests lay (but the Tau do) and they must be brought to understand what is best for them - by any means neccessary. The Greater Good excuses any action to achieve that end. For them, that is good and failing to bring the Greater Good to the unenlightened is evil.. it is failure.

All this also means that the only ones who will be 'forced' into submitting to the greater good are going to be non-Tau basically, and even in that regard they haven't had difficulty assimilating races (eg the Kroot - but then again they also let the Kroot eat dead sentients for their goal and for some reason that meshes in with their idea of unity and the greater good...)

Those sentients are dead. What harm is eating them going to do? It's just meat, after all.

If you look at the dietary habits of the Kroot from the Tau place of dispassionate observation and clinical, critical analysis, you can see it as simply a thing Kroot do. A Tau won't do it, of course, but a Tau doesn't have a need to do it. Besides, it's not harming the dead guy any further, as he's already dead.

I'm not sure if Tau believe in souls or spirits or anything of the sort, being something of a psychically-dull race, but they may simply view the body, post-mortem, as an empty shell or lump of meat, not requiring any further attention or regard, apart from removal for the public health.

It depends on your POV. Some cultures have strong feelings or taboos about the dead. And don't forget Space Marines can value their dead highly (for the gene-seed if nothing else.) Thus some in the Imperium who look on Kroot habits as filthy and disgusting, but it's also true that the Imperium has whole hive worlds and forge worlds that subsist on recycled human corpses too. And the AdMech will recycle that stuff for their minions and troops as well, so...

On the other hand they don't start out dead... its only "dead flesh" after battle, and I don't think the Kroot take prisoners (I was remebering that short story in "Fear the Alien" called Unity. They took an IG and Raven Guard alive, and then turned them over to the Kroot because the Kroot wanted their superior genetics.)

From the Tau POV it probably isn't bad. The Kroot aren't snacking on their allies and it keeps the Kroot happy,

Well the kroot have to eat people or they turn into feral animals. The tau don't like it, but it's not as if they can help it. It's a sticky spot.

Nom nom's make better Kroot. Better Kroot means it takes longer for the enemy to get to Tau lines.

Its a win win. Its a win delicious. mmm. Nom nom.

CpatTom wrote:Nom nom's make better Kroot. Better Kroot means it takes longer for the enemy to get to Tau lines.

Its a win win. Its a win delicious. mmm. Nom nom.

But what about the moral implications. At the very least it's offensive to your opponents. Armies like the IoM might not give a damn about there enemy, but the tau do.

The Greater Good comes before the enemies feelings.

Yes, if you are trying to convince a new world how awesome and civilized your culture is, the Water Caste would appreciate it if the Fire caste kept the people eatings to a minimum, but if things devolve to conflict, the Kroot have proven valuable allies to the Tau, and thus their relationship to the Kroot would be more valuable to maintain.

nomotog wrote:
But what about the moral implications. At the very least it's offensive to your opponents. Armies like the IoM might not give a damn about there enemy, but the tau do.

Actually if they're defying the greater good, they don't. That's why they kill the enemy rather than try to stun or incapacitate them. That's why they'll happily bomb planets and sterilize even compliant populaces. They aren't above killing people (Even civilians) if it serves the greater good. They will even sacrifice themselves en masse in the right cirucmstances (EG protecting an Ethereal. They are so driven to protect ethereals they will even abandon their current fight to rush and kill whoever is attacking the Ethereal.)

And as far a the tau are concerned, that is perfectly acceptable. It's in their best interests to protect and preserve their own allies and people before anyone not part of their tribe. Survival isn't always "moral", but in 40K it's a necessity.

Also as far as the Kroot go, I recalled some interesting tidbits from the "Fear the Alien" anthology:

Fear the Alien, page 320&321 wrote:"The kroot seek only unity, and your meat tells the kroot how to be. They give the gift of unity, and they become stronger. They will take your flesh in unity and become better fighters in low gravity. They will see better. They need fresh meat. Their only constant is change.”
...
"Your Emperor and priests fill their giant warriors with machines and organs to make them strong. Their meat is powerful, but the kroot need all kinds. Otherwise they would break down. You’re saving their race. You should be proud. "

The need for "fresh meat" seems to be a biological imperative (MArk of the Xenos implies this) and it seems to have deterimental consequences if they don't keep seeking out new (and different) flesh to consume - I'm not knoweldgable enough about biology to speculate as to why they would "break down" but I imagine that given how volatile/active and rapidly adaptive it is, it may not be very stable by itself.

There are limits though according to Mark of the Xenos. They won't eat Tyranids (no reason given) they won't eat the flesh of anyone touched by chaos (mutation and corruption, I'd guess.) and they are forbidden by the Shapers from eating tau flesh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also while trying to run down what I recalled, I ran across this fun little tidbit regarding some of my earlier comments about the Tau and GReater Good

Deathwatch Core Rulebook, page 352 wrote:
The Tau teach that the perfect society, one modelled after the Tau themselves, has a place for every creature; with every creature in that place, fulfilling their assigned roles without question, for the good of the Sept as a whole. Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue’la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue’la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.
...
One such city, Beldar, is home to the Gue’Retha, a research institute and university to which the Tau transport all the brightest and most talented humans to educate them in Tau philosophy and technology. Attached to the Gue’Retha is a place which the
Tau decline to name, but which human malcontents call the Lacuna. This underground research facility, it is rumoured, is where the Tau conduct psychological experiments on gue’la prisoners. The results supposedly help the Tau refine their
methods of social manipulation, but no one can be sure since any heard to utter such thoughts vanish, quite possibly into the Lacuna itself.

One way or another, they'll make you conform to what they think is best, and they'll bring you to the Greater Good whether you want to or not.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Now, before the outrage begins, I'm going to point out that what I said are not an effort to portray the Tau as being "lol evil" or "Tau suck" - this is simply how they are, and this is completely consistent with their mindset and beliefs insofar as it pertains to the greater good.

If anyoone trolls you Connor, ignore them. Not one of them seem to understand that the Tau are undergoing the same change in attitude that turned humanity and Eldar into such bastards in the 41st millennium which is the psychotic nature of the 40k galaxy. I liken the Tau to the humanity during the expansion years of before and during the DAoT, of course the Tau are nothing compared to the tech of DAoT humans, who went into space filled with hopes of exploration and peace and finding the galaxy to be somewhat crazy started developing WMD's* in a frenzy which eventually turned into the attitude of the IOM or even Eldar. But to people who complain, the Tau are perfect and can never fall into the same pits of immorality that Eldar and Humanity currently wallow in.

* All those Exterminatus weapons have to come from somewhere.

nomotog wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Nom nom's make better Kroot. Better Kroot means it takes longer for the enemy to get to Tau lines.

Its a win win. Its a win delicious. mmm. Nom nom.

But what about the moral implications. At the very least it's offensive to your opponents. Armies like the IoM might not give a damn about there enemy, but the tau do.

Well the kroot see it as honouring the fallen, so to them their is no moral implication, much like what the Fremen do to extract water.
Others are offended but tolerate it and see the necessity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:Well the kroot have to eat people or they turn into feral animals. The tau don't like it, but it's not as if they can help it. It's a sticky spot.

What turns them into animals is when they eat to much of a specific creature, and take on too many of it's traits for it to be reversible.

CpatTom wrote:The Greater Good comes before the enemies feelings.

Yes, if you are trying to convince a new world how awesome and civilized your culture is, the Water Caste would appreciate it if the Fire caste kept the people eatings to a minimum, but if things devolve to conflict, the Kroot have proven valuable allies to the Tau, and thus their relationship to the Kroot would be more valuable to maintain.

Aren't you the poster who said that the Imperium doesn't build new factories or something like that cause they rely on old templates? Your debate in that thread where you had the Tau just calmly packing their entire civilization onto ships and flying them, something the Imperium can't do, across all of Imperium space without maps and not getting attacked by pirates, Orks and whatever and getting destroyed is just madness.

Connor MacLeod wrote:It depends on your POV. Some cultures have strong feelings or taboos about the dead. And don't forget Space Marines can value their dead highly (for the gene-seed if nothing else.) Thus some in the Imperium who look on Kroot habits as filthy and disgusting, but it's also true that the Imperium has whole hive worlds and forge worlds that subsist on recycled human corpses too. And the AdMech will recycle that stuff for their minions and troops as well, so...

Actually, from what I can tell its not something that is broadcasted to everyone so that they know the they are eating human flesh. Its a secret seeing as Acolytes of the Inquisition are horrified when they find out about such things. I pretty much take this as a thing that some worlds do. As for the Mechanicus, they don't care about the flesh or people anyway. They want to be machines so they recycle the weak flesh to be used again.

im2randomghgh wrote:
But what about the moral implications. At the very least it's offensive to your opponents. Armies like the IoM might not give a damn about there enemy, but the tau do.

Well the kroot see it as honouring the fallen, so to them their is no moral implication, much like what the Fremen do to extract water.
Others are offended but tolerate it and see the necessity.

What turns them into animals is when they eat to much of a specific creature, and take on too many of it's traits for it to be reversible.

This is pretty much Cultural and moral relativism in that what one finds offensive is not offensive to another species.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

CpatTom wrote:The Greater Good comes before the enemies feelings.
Yes, if you are trying to convince a new world how awesome and civilized your culture is, the Water Caste would appreciate it if the Fire caste kept the people eatings to a minimum, but if things devolve to conflict, the Kroot have proven valuable allies to the Tau, and thus their relationship to the Kroot would be more valuable to maintain.

Aren't you the poster who said that the Imperium doesn't build new factories or something like that cause they rely on old templates? Your debate in that thread where you had the Tau just calmly packing their entire civilization onto ships and flying them, something the Imperium can't do, across all of Imperium space without maps and not getting attacked by pirates, Orks and whatever and getting destroyed is just madness.

I had offered that as an alternative to the options the Tau were being given in the thread to stand and fight against an overwhelming Tyranid Hive fleet.

1 I fail to follow your train of thought about why this is relevant.
2 Yes, an Empire sized armada would make a perfect target for pirates and Orcs (Thats sarcasm, an armada that big would not make a good target for piracy)
3 You dont have to know where you are going when you are falling back out of the face of a superior force.
4 The Tau are capable of plenty of things the IoM are not, AI, Railguns, not being corrupted by chaos (The thing that caused the Eldar and Human falls)
5 No mention of anything about STC's or IoM production capabilities

CpatTom wrote:
I had offered that as an alternative to the options the Tau were being given in the thread to stand and fight against an overwhelming Tyranid Hive fleet.

1 I fail to follow your train of thought about why this is relevant.

Nothing, its just your comments in that thread were faceplam worthy to me.

2 Yes, an Empire sized armada would make a perfect target for pirates and Orcs (Thats sarcasm, an armada that big would not make a good target for piracy)

Actually it would, Hit and Run attacks by either the Imperium or Orks who don't care about casualties or the countless other alien menaces hiding in the spaces between the Stars.

3 You dont have to know where you are going when you are falling back out of the face of a superior force.

Yeah. Not knowing where one is going doesn't matter. After all the Tau could ste course for Terra and get wiped out by the Fleet defenses or arrive at their destination to find that its the Eye of Terror but the Tau arr perfect, right? The Eye of Terror would close up by itself due to the presence of the Tau .

4 The Tau are capable of plenty of things the IoM are not, AI, Railguns,

The AI is a stupid reason seeing as the Imperium deliberately doesn't want to build an AI due to the Iron MEN rebellion. I believe that the BattleFleet Gothic rulebooks have ships have weapons batteries which mentions railguns as one of those weapons. Also the Imperium has Ion cannons.

not being corrupted by chaos (The thing that caused the Eldar and Human falls)

Where has it ever been stated that Tau are immune to Chaos?

5 No mention of anything about STC's or IoM production capabilities

What?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

CpatTom wrote:The Greater Good comes before the enemies feelings.

Yes, if you are trying to convince a new world how awesome and civilized your culture is, the Water Caste would appreciate it if the Fire caste kept the people eatings to a minimum, but if things devolve to conflict, the Kroot have proven valuable allies to the Tau, and thus their relationship to the Kroot would be more valuable to maintain.

Aren't you the poster who said that the Imperium doesn't build new factories or something like that cause they rely on old templates? Your debate in that thread where you had the Tau just calmly packing their entire civilization onto ships and flying them, something the Imperium can't do, across all of Imperium space without maps and not getting attacked by pirates, Orks and whatever and getting destroyed is just madness.

Connor MacLeod wrote:It depends on your POV. Some cultures have strong feelings or taboos about the dead. And don't forget Space Marines can value their dead highly (for the gene-seed if nothing else.) Thus some in the Imperium who look on Kroot habits as filthy and disgusting, but it's also true that the Imperium has whole hive worlds and forge worlds that subsist on recycled human corpses too. And the AdMech will recycle that stuff for their minions and troops as well, so...

Actually, from what I can tell its not something that is broadcasted to everyone so that they know the they are eating human flesh. Its a secret seeing as Acolytes of the Inquisition are horrified when they find out about such things. I pretty much take this as a thing that some worlds do. As for the Mechanicus, they don't care about the flesh or people anyway. They want to be machines so they recycle the weak flesh to be used again.

im2randomghgh wrote:
But what about the moral implications. At the very least it's offensive to your opponents. Armies like the IoM might not give a damn about there enemy, but the tau do.

Well the kroot see it as honouring the fallen, so to them their is no moral implication, much like what the Fremen do to extract water.
Others are offended but tolerate it and see the necessity.

What turns them into animals is when they eat to much of a specific creature, and take on too many of it's traits for it to be reversible.

This is pretty much Cultural and moral relativism in that what one finds offensive is not offensive to another species.

As to the mechanicus recycling human flesh, no. That is a heretical act performed by the dark mechanicum, the Imperium sends it's fallen to grave worlds. Or just leaves them lying around, whichever.

Take the reason why Tau are uprooting their civilization out of the equation, and I am sure it seems like a bad idea.

I'm sure they would run into a few pirates. The few that did decide to attack would be destroyed. Most wouldn't, because most like continuing to be pirates instead of dead. (Orks being the exception, but i dont think Ork spacecraft to be particularly suited to hit and run tactics).

I imagine the Tau to continue on the fringes of the IoM's space in that thread, as already stated because that is logical. Who knows though. Maybe they would ignore the IoM's existence and manage to make it to the western side of the galaxy. Look where the Eye of Terror is.

The Tau are probably not corruptible, but they aren't particularly easy o corrupt either, hence the one example I know of was the fire warrior main character in a FPS who soloed a Daemon.

Please provide some sort of reasons for your responses and statements, they help discussion from devovling into mindless drivel.

CpatTom wrote:Take the reason why Tau are uprooting their civilization out of the equation, and I am sure it seems like a bad idea.

I'm sure they would run into a few pirates. The few that did decide to attack would be destroyed. Most wouldn't, because most like continuing to be pirates instead of dead. (Orks being the exception, but i dont think Ork spacecraft to be particularly suited to hit and run tactics).

I imagine the Tau to continue on the fringes of the IoM's space in that thread, as already stated because that is logical. Who knows though. Maybe they would ignore the IoM's existence and manage to make it to the western side of the galaxy. Look where the Eye of Terror is.

The Tau are probably not corruptible, but they aren't particularly easy o corrupt either, hence the one example I know of was the fire warrior main character in a FPS who soloed a Daemon.

Please provide some sort of reasons for your responses and statements, they help discussion from devovling into mindless drivel.

You may want to make your last statement more clear. Lots of FW could solo a daemon. You should mention that it was a GREATER daemon. A nurgling is a daemon too

CpatTom wrote:
The Tau are probably not corruptible, but they aren't particularly easy o corrupt either, hence the one example I know of was the fire warrior main character in a FPS who soloed a Daemon.

This is true, but in the Novel the game is based off of (and the more official source, I would guess) has the Fire Warrior Taking on the Greater Daemon with a squad of Crisis suits( led by his Commander, a Shas'el) and a Good backing of Space Marines that had teamed up to take out said Daemon.

It's also Implied in the book that our lil' Shas'la friend had some....outside help.... from a Certain Blood God we all know and love.

Long story short, Our poor little Shas'la is currently in a coma, clutching a sliver of a Wafer that his father (a Shas'o) gave him when La'Kias (the FIre Warrior's Name) was just a wee Shas'saal.

That part made me cry when I read it

Anyways, The book was a fun read. Really like that I found it so cheap. Literally screamed like a school girl that just saw Justin Bieber IRL when I found Fire Warrior(novel) for 50 cents at the Flea market.

Also, I heard a rumor a while ago that some up and coming BL author has been working on the sequel to Fire Warrior since 2010. I really hope so. Books with Tau Protagonists are almost non-existent.

CpatTom wrote:
I'm sure they would run into a few pirates. The few that did decide to attack would be destroyed. Most wouldn't, because most like continuing to be pirates instead of dead. (Orks being the exception, but i dont think Ork spacecraft to be particularly suited to hit and run tactics).

A lot of pirates in 40k happen to belong to pirate clans which can have dozens or 20 ships. And the Imperium is just going to let the Tau cross Imperium space without stopping them? And the other obscene alien races in 40k like the Slaught and the Rakghoul alone will cause attrition among the Tau

I imagine the Tau to continue on the fringes of the IoM's space in that thread, as already stated because that is logical. Who knows though. Maybe they would ignore the IoM's existence and manage to make it to the western side of the galaxy. Look where the Eye of Terror is.

I welcome the Tau entering the Eye of Terror. The whole race would go extinct from insanity and daemon rape and I'll be happy , but I hope that the Kroot survive, I like the Kroot.

The Tau are probably not corruptible, but they aren't particularly easy o corrupt either, hence the one example I know of was the fire warrior main character in a FPS who soloed a Daemon.

Please provide some sort of reasons for your responses and statements, they help discussion from devovling into mindless drivel.

How about humans working for the Tau? Who corruptible are they?

My entire problem with your argument is that you presume that the Tau wil actually abandon their homeworld while somehow manage to put the entire population of their empire aboard their ships, something the Imperium who have more ships than the Tau and a larger population and industrial base can't achieve.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:If anyoone trolls you Connor, ignore them. Not one of them seem to understand that the Tau are undergoing the same change in attitude that turned humanity and Eldar into such bastards in the 41st millennium which is the psychotic nature of the 40k galaxy. I liken the Tau to the humanity during the expansion years of before and during the DAoT, of course the Tau are nothing compared to the tech of DAoT humans, who went into space filled with hopes of exploration and peace and finding the galaxy to be somewhat crazy started developing WMD's* in a frenzy which eventually turned into the attitude of the IOM or even Eldar. But to people who complain, the Tau are perfect and can never fall into the same pits of immorality that Eldar and Humanity currently wallow in.

* All those Exterminatus weapons have to come from somewhere.

No they're not. They're the same as they have always been.. its just further information clarifies that fact. I've seen the earlier codexes and stuff, and nothing about it really made them any less different then than they are now - there's just more clarifying detail. The tau are not moustache-twirling bad guys just becuase they bomb planets or do the forced sterilization - that's just part of the whole "Greater Good" motif, and they see it as the best solution for achieving Greater Good. Other people (like the Imperium) may view that as evil, but ten again the imperium is hardly better since they have more than their share of religious fanatics, xenophobes, and genocide.

The same is true of Eldar and humanity. "Good and evil" is simply trying to oversimplify it, because its silly to assume everyone is "all good" or "all bad".

Corporal_Reznov wrote:A lot of pirates in 40k happen to belong to pirate clans which can have dozens or 20 ships. And the Imperium is just going to let the Tau cross Imperium space without stopping them? And the other obscene alien races in 40k like the Slaught and the Rakghoul alone will cause attrition among the Tau

Pirates are strong enough to wipe out an Empire sized Armada? How does anything get done in the IoM if pirates are so powerful?

I welcome the Tau entering the Eye of Terror. The whole race would go extinct from insanity and daemon rape and I'll be happy , but I hope that the Kroot survive, I like the Kroot.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13269685/images/1293177690608.jpg You need to look at this, because you at least either dont know where the Tau Empire or the Eye of terror is.

How about humans working for the Tau? Who corruptible are they?

Corruptible enough, although in an emergency evactuation where the entire Empire is being uprooted, I dont know how many humans would warrant getting a ride (I'm guessing not enough to matter).

My entire problem with your argument is that you presume that the Tau wil actually abandon their homeworld while somehow manage to put the entire population of their empire aboard their ships, something the Imperium who have more ships than the Tau and a larger population and industrial base can't achieve.

My entire problem with your argument is it doesnt follow logical sense.
1. They aren't doing this because its fun, they are doing it because they are being attacked by a hivefleet they have no hope of stopping. Stop ignoring this fact, and maybe the argument makes more sense.
2. The Tau wouldnt take their entire population, just as many as possible.
3. Being a smaller Empire both geographically and population wise (not to mention having a working and efficient governmental structure), it would be easier to board the Empire onto ships, not harder as you seem to think.

4. Is the IoM industrial base actually greater per capita, or are you just making this up?

CpatTom wrote:
Pirates are strong enough to wipe out an Empire sized Armada? How does anything get done in the IoM if pirates are so powerful?

Ever heard of attrition?

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13269685/images/1293177690608.jpg You need to look at this, because you at least either dont know where the Tau Empire or the Eye of terror is.

I know where the Eye of Terror is located. I was making a jest based on your statement that the tau would enter Imperium space without any directions on where to go and because of this they arrive at the EOT.

Corruptible enough, although in an emergency evactuation where the entire Empire is being uprooted, I dont know how many humans would warrant getting a ride (I'm guessing not enough to matter).

Completely corruptible.

My entire problem with your argument is it doesnt follow logical sense.
1. They aren't doing this because its fun, they are doing it because they are being attacked by a hivefleet they have no hope of stopping. Stop ignoring this fact, and maybe the argument makes more sense.

And they would actually consider this idea? Would they have the time to implement it? Would the Tau not fracture due to this event and no longer remain united? Would they actually survive the journey without getting destroyed by whatever nasty thing exist in space in 40k.

2. The Tau wouldnt take their entire population, just as many as possible.

3. Being a smaller Empire both geographically and population wise (not to mention having a working and efficient governmental structure), it would be easier to board the Empire onto ships, not harder as you seem to think.

Fine.

4. Is the IoM industrial base actually greater per capita, or are you just making this up?

I thought the existence of a million worlds and the unofficial worlds part of the Imperium would be enough evidence of this.

Corporal_Reznov wrote: Ever heard of attrition?

Yes, it takes a long time and someone unwilling to adapt to a threat. These are qualities the Tau do not have.

I know where the Eye of Terror is located. I was making a jest based on your statement that the tau would enter Imperium space without any directions on where to go and because of this they arrive at the EOT.

Apologies, I did not realize it to be a joke, well because its something I could see someone saying on Dakka earnestly. Its a good one though.

Completely corruptible.

All six that get space on a ship.

And they would actually consider this idea? Would they have the time to implement it? Would the Tau not fracture due to this event and no longer remain united? Would they actually survive the journey without getting destroyed by whatever nasty thing exist in space in 40k.

In the scenario presented, they are being confronted by a hivefleet, and the ability to defeat this fleet was determined to be impossible. Presented with this scenario, instead of continuing to argue, "no the Tau would win", I decided to consider what the Tau would do, if they were faced with a Hivefleet they knew they could not defeat.
The Tau have fractured a grand total of once. As long as they have an Etheral they are good.
Again, I find it unlikely an Empire sized armada of ships would simply be destroyed by a few pirates, but it certainly is possible that it might occur.
(Its also possible that a GK might fall to chaos...)

I thought the existence of a million worlds and the unofficial worlds part of the Imperium would be enough evidence of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita
I think the Tau would have a greater per capita technological base, actually. Considering how well standard line soldiers are equipped, tech available to everyone etc, but I have no evidence for this.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

CpatTom wrote:
Pirates are strong enough to wipe out an Empire sized Armada? How does anything get done in the IoM if pirates are so powerful?

Ever heard of attrition?

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/13269685/images/1293177690608.jpg You need to look at this, because you at least either dont know where the Tau Empire or the Eye of terror is.

I know where the Eye of Terror is located. I was making a jest based on your statement that the tau would enter Imperium space without any directions on where to go and because of this they arrive at the EOT.

Corruptible enough, although in an emergency evactuation where the entire Empire is being uprooted, I dont know how many humans would warrant getting a ride (I'm guessing not enough to matter).

Completely corruptible.

My entire problem with your argument is it doesnt follow logical sense.
1. They aren't doing this because its fun, they are doing it because they are being attacked by a hivefleet they have no hope of stopping. Stop ignoring this fact, and maybe the argument makes more sense.

And they would actually consider this idea? Would they have the time to implement it? Would the Tau not fracture due to this event and no longer remain united? Would they actually survive the journey without getting destroyed by whatever nasty thing exist in space in 40k.

2. The Tau wouldnt take their entire population, just as many as possible.

3. Being a smaller Empire both geographically and population wise (not to mention having a working and efficient governmental structure), it would be easier to board the Empire onto ships, not harder as you seem to think.

Fine.

4. Is the IoM industrial base actually greater per capita, or are you just making this up?

I thought the existence of a million worlds and the unofficial worlds part of the Imperium would be enough evidence of this.

I'm just gonna reply to your first and last post.

1. Attrition generally doesn't work considering the tau have their entire art of war centered around mobility and support, whereas the IoM uses slow, unstoppable force. The only armies with more mobility are Eldar and Necrons.

As for the last one, that absolutely does not answer it. Do you know what per capita means? That means how much is being produced relative to the population. The tau almost cerainly exceed the IoM there, especially considering unemployment is a thing in the IoM but not in the Empire.

Tau absolutely have more per capita. The IoM whould lose out to the anyone on that stat. That's one crazy thing about the Iom. They have almost zero labor er saving devices.

nomotog wrote:Tau absolutely have more per capita. The IoM whould lose out to the anyone on that stat. That's one crazy thing about the Iom. They have almost zero labor er saving devices.

They almost intentionally avoid it. They'd rather use slaves with pick axes than drilling machines, except on forge worlds.

bombboy1252 wrote: Snip

BRAVO GOOD SIR! It takes commitment to keep trolling this long. You have will power hereto unseen and you should be proud.

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:Tau absolutely have more per capita. The IoM whould lose out to the anyone on that stat. That's one crazy thing about the Iom. They have almost zero labor er saving devices.

They almost intentionally avoid it. They'd rather use slaves with pick axes than drilling machines, except on forge worlds.

Yep. In the IoM, lives are cheap. Tech is often old, expensive and unrepairable. This is the army that makes bridges out of there infantrymen.

nomotog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

nomotog wrote:Tau absolutely have more per capita. The IoM whould lose out to the anyone on that stat. That's one crazy thing about the Iom. They have almost zero labor er saving devices.

They almost intentionally avoid it. They'd rather use slaves with pick axes than drilling machines, except on forge worlds.

Yep. In the IoM, lives are cheap. Tech is often old, expensive and unrepairable. This is the army that makes bridges out of there infantrymen.

Literally.

I remember a par in GG where they made a hill out of bodies because they couldn't wait 5 MINUTES for their LRBT support to blow it apart.

CpatTom wrote:
Yes, it takes a long time and someone unwilling to adapt to a threat. These are qualities the Tau do not have.

So the Tau will adapt to Rakghoul raiders, warp storms, temporal dislocations, raids by Imperial fleets in just a snap of a finger?

Apologies, I did not realize it to be a joke, well because its something I could see someone saying on Dakka earnestly. Its a good one though.

Thanks. Just have fun, don't be so serious .

All six that get space on a ship.

What?

In the scenario presented, they are being confronted by a hivefleet, and the ability to defeat this fleet was determined to be impossible. Presented with this scenario, instead of continuing to argue, "no the Tau would win", I decided to consider what the Tau would do, if they were faced with a Hivefleet they knew they could not defeat.
The Tau have fractured a grand total of once. As long as they have an Etheral they are good.
Again, I find it unlikely an Empire sized armada of ships would simply be destroyed by a few pirates, but it certainly is possible that it might occur.
(Its also possible that a GK might fall to chaos...)

The Tau fleet separates a few ships from itself to scout ahead of the main fleet and these get destroyed and the Tau fleet continue forward to get ambushed a an Ork raid etc.

im2randomghgh wrote:
I'm just gonna reply to your first and last post.

1. Attrition generally doesn't work considering the tau have their entire art of war centered around mobility and support, whereas the IoM uses slow, unstoppable force. The only armies with more mobility are Eldar and Necrons.

We are talking about spaceships not the ground army.

As for the last one, that absolutely does not answer it. Do you know what per capita means? That means how much is being produced relative to the population. The tau almost cerainly exceed the IoM there, especially considering unemployment is a thing in the IoM but not in the Empire.

You're right here, although thats because of the sheer size of the Imperium's population which makes the Tau insignificant. Also, can you post a quote where its said that the Tau have no unemployment.

nomotog wrote:Tau absolutely have more per capita. The IoM whould lose out to the anyone on that stat. That's one crazy thing about the Iom. They have almost zero labor er saving devices.

They actually do, they just don't use it everywhere due to sheer size of the Imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:
They almost intentionally avoid it. They'd rather use slaves with pick axes than drilling machines, except on forge worlds.

Hive worlds use machines, Agri-worlds use machines. Its the feral worlds that don't do that.

nomotog wrote:
Yep. In the IoM, lives are cheap. Tech is often old, expensive and unrepairable. This is the army that makes bridges out of there infantrymen.

Not everyone does this.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:So the Tau will adapt to Rakghoul raiders, warp storms, temporal dislocations, raids by Imperial fleets in just a snap of a finger?
The Tau fleet separates a few ships from itself to scout ahead of the main fleet and these get destroyed and the Tau fleet continue forward to get ambushed a an Ork raid etc.
We are talking about spaceships not the ground army.

Why are you scouting ahead, in space and not seeing the ambush/ork raiders IN SPACE (The big empty thing with not a whole lot to hide behind)? As for the IoM, they would probably be busy, with that Hive Fleet. The one that the Tau didn't have a chance in hell of defeating. By and large Imperial Commanders aren't going to engage the Tau in this situation given they are probably going to have orders to report to whatever is left of Ultramar in order to attempt to stop the Nids before they eat the Golden Throne. Or if they dont have orders, then the nids have already nom'd on the Golden Throne, and the Greater Good is probably sounding pretty good right now.

The Tau would probably have a specific star cluster in mind they would be traveling to. They do have limited warp travel, but warp travel nonetheless, which negates a lot of the risk associated with flying into pirate traps (although the Demuirig are a ship bound race, and they still exist, so it would be possible to continue to exist on board ships). Thinking they north or south along the IoM fringe, instead of to terra. Unless the fringe of Imperium space has some sort massive amount of defenses I'm not aware of.

All six that get space on a ship. What?

Humans wouldn't be a priority in an evacuation scenario. Not many would rate a space on a ship, thus negating the danger that chaos corruption would have. (Not to mention all of the different Tau systems in place that recognize behaviour that doesnt fit the norm, and steps taken to "correct" said anti-social tendencies ould significantly curb Chaos). As well as the Greater Good having inherent similarity to the Imperial Truth, which really has no impact at this scale of belief, I just find it interesting.

What are we talking about? I thought this was about which was a stronger force in the galaxy, the Greater Good or Chaos...

CpatTom wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:So the Tau will adapt to Rakghoul raiders, warp storms, temporal dislocations, raids by Imperial fleets in just a snap of a finger?
The Tau fleet separates a few ships from itself to scout ahead of the main fleet and these get destroyed and the Tau fleet continue forward to get ambushed a an Ork raid etc.
We are talking about spaceships not the ground army.

Why are you scouting ahead, in space and not seeing the ambush/ork raiders IN SPACE (The big empty thing with not a whole lot to hide behind)? As for the IoM, they would probably be busy, with that Hive Fleet. The one that the Tau didn't have a chance in hell of defeating. By and large Imperial Commanders aren't going to engage the Tau in this situation given they are probably going to have orders to report to whatever is left of Ultramar in order to attempt to stop the Nids before they eat the Golden Throne. Or if they dont have orders, then the nids have already nom'd on the Golden Throne, and the Greater Good is probably sounding pretty good right now.

If the Tau can't beat the Nids then why would the IG and whatever want to join the Tau, is it because you say so.

Also fluff has mention that the death of the Emp may doom the galaxy in way of a huge warp storm similar to the EOT by the size of the Imperium or Chaos daemons invade the galaxy in mass or Chaos armies invade the galaxy in mass or the Nids now have free reign to eat everything which kills the Tau too.

Finally, why would the Tau scout? If they had any brains, tthey would scout so as to know the places to avoid like crashing into a black hole, arriving at the heat of an Ork empire, arriving at an area of temporal instability or arriving in the middle of a battle between Imperium and Chaos or by accident hitting a WARP RIFT. Orks and their ships can be sneaky when they want to be; read the RT rpg's to find out about this.

Humans wouldn't be a priority in an evacuation scenario. Not many would rate a space on a ship, thus negating the danger that chaos corruption would have. (Not to mention all of the different Tau systems in place that recognize behaviour that doesnt fit the norm, and steps taken to "correct" said anti-social tendencies ould significantly curb Chaos). As well as the Greater Good having inherent similarity to the Imperial Truth, which really has no impact at this scale of belief, I just find it interesting.

Provide evidence that the Tau can even recognize subtle Chaos religions in their midst. Atleast, you admit the Tau would they morally grey or bad things depending on ones point of view .

wow alot of Tau doom wishers here, why is it anytime somebody starts talking about the Tau, it usually devolves into how they will be wiped out/ corrupted/ eaten by poodles etc.

Guess people dont like getting any optimism in their grimdark huh..( you got chocolate in my peanut butter!! )

Well since I like the little blue dudes, and have a sizeable finacial investment in their well being, guess I will contribute my 2 creds/workchits to this love fest.

In the eventuality that the Tau were forced to abandon thier home planets in order to ensure the continued survival of the race, alot would have to do with the onset time, and the amount of breather they could have to build up a sizable evacuation fleet and make all the preperations for the Exodus, likely this would involve calling in all their favors from allied races, ( Demiurg , Nicassar , kroot etc ), and gather the flock as it were, since if the Tau are in the grinder so are their allies.

So gathering a ragtag fugitive fleet ( que battlestar galactica music ) they would set course for safety, likely in several mutually supporting fleets, with adequate defenses.

The Fleets would be stocked with the best and brightest they could muster and likely include even their allied non space faring races, as long as they bring something useful to the survival table, ( not because the blue guys are nicey nice, but they are logical, and having a diverse force expands their options for colonization. )

All that cannot be evacuated would prepare to hold for aslong as is possible to give the exodus as much time as possible. ( the greater good can be a bitch.)

Now space is a vast place..a vasty vast place..in fact its so big its hard to even imagine it, and a fleet even a emipire size evacuation fleet would be but a speck in its vasty vastness, and pirates..being pirates tend to hang araound known space lanes and near occupied systems. ( since no ships to loot make for a sad space pirate, and a dead space pirate captain.)
So by merely avoiding all the standard spacelanes and occupied systems, most of the potential pirate silliness could be avoided.

And as for Imperial fleets and such, just dont poke the tiger, avoid imperial planets, avoid imperial space, go around, evade escape, and if discovered, make sure what ever scout element that discovers you never gets back to mommy, get my drift?

Likely these Exodus fleets would use Recon drones to scout out systems that they had no intel on, and if scout drones dont report send another one..if it does not report dont send anymore and push on.

Once these fleets either reach their destination ( star cluster, safe worlds or what ever ) and providing its not a heavily defended imperial planet, which the recon drones would have sniffed out ( see above ), then they could begin colonization operations, since the Tau seem pretty able at droping colonies and building up infrastructure, a new start would not be to difficult, and if the targeted planets have squatters, well a hungry heavily armed refugee force is not something to trifle with, likely it would be in the best interest of the squatters to deal with the water caste diplomats...nicely.

Now I am sure all the blue haters out there can easily conjure up a black hole or star demon or a space squid to eat all the tau up and burp twice, but fortuntaly my blue dudes packed disaster repellant spray.

gee that was fun.

( spaced for easy quote clipping we Tau try to be helpful. )

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:wow alot of Tau doom wishers here, why is it anytime somebody starts talking about the Tau, it usually devolves into how they will be wiped out/ corrupted/ eaten by poodles etc.

Guess people dont like getting any optimism in their grimdark huh..( you got chocolate in my peanut butter!! )

Well since I like the little blue dudes, and have a sizeable finacial investment in their well being, guess I will contribute my 2 creds/workchits to this love fest.

In the eventuality that the Tau were forced to abandon thier home planets in order to ensure the continued survival of the race, alot would have to do with the onset time, and the amount of breather they could have to build up a sizable evacuation fleet and make all the preperations for the Exodus, likely this would involve calling in all their favors from allied races, ( Demiurg , Nicassar , kroot etc ), and gather the flock as it were, since if the Tau are in the grinder so are their allies.

So gathering a ragtag fugitive fleet ( que battlestar galactica music ) they would set course for safety, likely in several mutually supporting fleets, with adequate defenses.

The Fleets would be stocked with the best and brightest they could muster and likely include even their allied non space faring races, as long as they bring something useful to the survival table, ( not because the blue guys are nicey nice, but they are logical, and having a diverse force expands their options for colonization. )

All that cannot be evacuated would prepare to hold for aslong as is possible to give the exodus as much time as possible. ( the greater good can be a bitch.)

Now space is a vast place..a vasty vast place..in fact its so big its hard to even imagine it, and a fleet even a emipire size evacuation fleet would be but a speck in its vasty vastness, and pirates..being pirates tend to hang araound known space lanes and near occupied systems. ( since no ships to loot make for a sad space pirate, and a dead space pirate captain.)
So by merely avoiding all the standard spacelanes and occupied systems, most of the potential pirate silliness could be avoided.

And as for Imperial fleets and such, just dont poke the tiger, avoid imperial planets, avoid imperial space, go around, evade escape, and if discovered, make sure what ever scout element that discovers you never gets back to mommy, get my drift?

Likely these Exodus fleets would use Recon drones to scout out systems that they had no intel on, and if scout drones dont report send another one..if it does not report dont send anymore and push on.

Once these fleets either reach their destination ( star cluster, safe worlds or what ever ) and providing its not a heavily defended imperial planet, which the recon drones would have sniffed out ( see above ), then they could begin colonization operations, since the Tau seem pretty able at droping colonies and building up infrastructure, a new start would not be to difficult, and if the targeted planets have squatters, well a hungry heavily armed refugee force is not something to trifle with, likely it would be in the best interest of the squatters to deal with the water caste diplomats...nicely.

Now I am sure all the blue haters out there can easily conjure up a black hole or star demon or a space squid to eat all the tau up and burp twice, but fortuntaly my blue dudes packed disaster repellant spray.

gee that was fun.

( spaced for easy quote clipping we Tau try to be helpful. )

This is actually the most sensible escape plan for the Tau I've read. CpatTom's one is just full of holes to me. Well done .

Still the very fact that Space is huge and full of dangers means that the Tau will lose ships(attrition) but not the whole fleet.

Well having space living-in races such as Demiurg and Nicassar and using alot of Drones for dangerous spots would severly mitigate those space dangers, also not having all their eggs in one basket is also a good way to succed as well, if any race has the cultural cohesivness to actually pull off a Exodus of this size the Tau are the best suited for it in 40k...minus Farsight of course, but maybe he would come back aboard the Greater good wagon....cause dieing is no way to prove a point, at least not the best way.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:This is actually the most sensible escape plan for the Tau I've read. CpatTom's one is just full of holes to me. Well done .
Still the very fact that Space is huge and full of dangers means that the Tau will lose ships(attrition) but not the whole fleet.

I'm glad you agree with me, because they are in fact the same plans. I may not have presented it in a way you could understand, and I apologize for that.

Once you join Chaos, you can never leave. Even Arguleon Veq/Karnulon, who rebelled against the Word Bearers and the Dark Gods, said he is nothing, just a rogue consumed by desire revenge against Chaos for what it did to him.