People often claim that ogryns, being the same price as Terminators, are worthless. Well, let's examine that.
5 ogryn vs 5 Terminators with lightening claws.
The ogryns shoot before they charge, 15 shots at BS3 gives us 7.5 hits.
7.5 S5 against T4 gives us
5 wounds.
This will be one wound against EVERY member of the squad, giving us
0.83 deaths.

Now the ogryns charge.
The terminators go first with 3 hits each, 15 in total
7.5 hit
2.5 wound, then re-rolls get another 2 for 4.5 wounds.
So 4 of the ogryns are now down to 2 wounds each.
The ogryns strike back, with 20 attacks in total.
10 hit
6.6 wound.
this means 4 will take 1 wound, 1 will take two, doubling their chances of dying
so the 4 will cause 0.6 wounds, the 1 will take 0.3 wound, giving 0.9 wounds in total.

*ASSUMING THE OGRYNS DO NOT FLEE*

the terminators strike again next assault, only 4 this time so 12 attacks.
6 hit
3.3 wound (approx and with re-rolls)
Now 2 ogryns are on 1 wound, 3 ogryns are on 2.
the ogryns strike back, 15 attacks, 7.5 hit.
5 wound.
0.83 deaths
giving total wounds 3.3 to terminators, 7.7 to ogryns.

Now there are only 2 terminators left, they're still slogging away, giving 6 attacks.
3 will hit, 1.6 will wound, so now 3 ogryns are on 1 wound, 2 are on 2.
Ogryns strike back, still doing 15 attacks. 7.5 hit, 5 wound, another 0.83 deaths.
O-9.3 T-4.1

Now there's only one terminator left, doing 3 attacks. 1.5 hit, 0.8 wound. Now ALL ogryns are on 1 wound.
Nevertheless, they strike back, doing 15 attacks, 7.5 hit and 0.83 wound. Since I've not kept track of second decimal place in this count, I would hazard a guess this would be enough to kill the squad.
Obviously the ogryns would probably have to be fearless/stubborn in order for this to work, but it clearly demonstrates that ogryns can take the fight to the best i nthe galaxy-and win.

I thought we are supposed to allocate wound on one that has already taken a wound?
And the only way to dodge that allocation is the same way people set up Nob Bikers? that is all with different gears?

What? I've never heard of that rule.
*scurries off to consult rulebook*

Joey wrote:What? I've never heard of that rule.
*scurries off to consult rulebook*

Forgive me if im wrong, i don't play often xD

though i was sort of sure on the wound thing due to Nob Bikers used to be very popular and wound allocation abuse
was what made them good.

I can't find anything in the book and I haven't heard of it so i'd say I don't think such a rule exists.

Have you read the rulebook? You should have lost an ogryn, and lost a wound on another. Also don't EVER assume charges. The Ogryns WILL lose combat to Terminators, even tactical Terminators with stormbolters & pwrfists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think you quite understand wound allocation in 5th ed.

Mathhammer also should work both ways.

One that Ogre charges
and
One that Termies charges. ( so they also get to shoot )

Wound allocation doesn't work with Ogryns (except for the Bone 'Ead) as they all have the same wargear and stats. As such, they're groups of identical models and you have to take wounds from one at a time until it dies.


On another note, if it's not Templars, who the hell bothers taking LC Terminators when there's Hammernators?

I have NEVER played with this rule before. What page in the rulebook does it state this?
If it's true then yeah you can ignore everything i just put.

Look at the index, then look at wound allocation.

Lol, try page 39 'allocating wounds' and page 25 'complex' units. So you'd actually lose 2/3 ogryns from wounds, before the termies strike so you'd only get 8/12 attacks back, half miss, a third of these wound and then the terminator has a 2+ save, ogryns lose.

ah nevermind. page 26.

Lack of an invulnerable, more difficult due to the army (IG) to get a cover save, 2+ wound dead from str10 weapons. For those simple reason, not worth it.

Granted they are pretty hitty but they don't scale well. A small squad doesn't actually do much to anything and a bigger squad is too easy to break without support, with support is simply asks for it with the point value and unlike a nobz biker squad (for example) it cannot stand up to the punishment.

The support, btw, merely boils down to higher LD or fearless.

Useless is a strong term. Nothing is useless really. At worst anything with a mass can be used as a paperweight.

Instead, one can simply say that they perform no effective or efficient function.

They are a fluffy choice taken for reasons other than their function - unless you are over estimating their function.

I really, really wanted to like Ogryns, but they're just too little too late... maybe is they where 5 pts. less and had a way to kill Termies or Marines like Rending... as it is, they're fantastic anvil, but nothing in the IG book is a "hammer" type unit, so they fall a bit flat, IMO.

Er. Ogryns are NOT useless, however:

The mobility of a land raider/stormraven versus the finer points of trying to assault out of a chimera is going to mean that if the marine player doesn't want this fight to happen, it probably won't. If he does, the ogryns probably won't be the ones charging.

Two, what army is being played, and how often do you really see terminators on the board that aren't under the effect of some sort of special rule (to say nothing of IC) support? Whether it's SW counter-attack, BA/BT furious charge, BA local FNP, BT preferred enemy, Vulkan, etc.

The only conclusion I can reach is that these must be, in fact, Vanilla codex LC terminators. AKA The least useful of all assault terminators. These terminators got charged, and still seem to be dropping ogryns faster than they themselves are dying off...not a ringing endorsement.

Don't throw the ogryns at the Turbo Ginsu Over Nine Thoooussaaand terminator unit. Throw them at the power armor units who you might actually kill and have a viable unit remaining afterwards. I'd be more interested in a test up against the biggest, "Wow that's cheezy" unit of grey hunters possible or against Strike Squad.

With out thinking about too much at all 200 pts of guardsmen should do well against 200pts of assault termies with TH/SS.

In my defence if I'd have been correct about wound allocation rules, Ogryns would be a fair choice. Rules as stands, however, yes they are massively over-priced.

Ogryns, are not something to be taken lightly. They are one of those units that can really surprise you and definitely something you want to either Kill outright, or put at Arms length.

If you opt to Kill you need a fair bit of firepower to neutralise, leaving the rest of the enemy force unscathed. If you manoeuvre away, then you are altering your plans and making your life more difficult for yourself. Neither of these outcomes is foavourable and therefore they are fulfilling a role. On the subject of points yes they are expensive.

Except that line of thinking is flawed.

If you take the maneuvering option early in the game, you take the ogryns out of the fight. This means you now have an IG army with a couple hundred points less actually putting the hurt on. This also results in the opposing force being able to leverage more of its firepower against the ranged threats of the IG commander, neutralising them early. The earlier a ranged threat can be neutralized, the better off the opponent is.

Ogryns can be ignored and outmaneuvered early game and left to be dealt with late game. They don't have a huge impact when they force combat turns 3-4, if they are still alive.

IG does not have the tools to make good use of a unit like Ogryns, and any IG general is fooling himself if he think he can put on the kind of pressure he needs with them. They simply do not fit well with the rest of the tools in the IG arsenal.

Against a Skilled opponent on a standard board 6x4 you will struggle to avoid the Ogryn's. Especially in an Objective based game.

If you opt to Kill you need a fair bit of firepower to neutralise

I can only speak for MEQ armies, but S10 or otherwise ID/remove-from-play is not hard to come by, in shooting or assault varieties. "Don't put your TH/SS in CC with this" is not the same as "Change the entire battleplan." and it may not even go that far, should close support or something with the squad carry the ability to deal with ogryns already.

You also have to consider that the Ogryns, in their Chimera, should NEVER be getting the assault off on the Terminators, in their assault vehicle Land Raider.

Aside from the already mentioned inconsistencies in the example, with the wrong wound allocation and use of LC terminators which people really don't use that much, Ogryns CAN be used better than this.

They aren't there to take on Terminators, they won't win against any competent opponent (who wouldn't get charged, and would have TH/SS). They can provide a decent counter-charge unit, and a big meat shield/distraction, and scare the pants off stuff like Tau.

They aren't useless, but it has nothing to do with Terminators. On the other hand, they still aren't that great.

Again, I would love to see the math on ogryns v. harder hitting power amor squads, or against things like orks

SOFDC wrote:Again, I would love to see the math on ogryns v. harder hitting power amor squads, or against things like orks

How many orks? Points equivilent? Problem with that would be figuring out how many could actually be within 2" of an ogryn.
Maybe nobs would be interesting but i've no idea what their stats are.

mwnciboo wrote:Against a Skilled opponent on a standard board 6x4 you will struggle to avoid the Ogryn's. Especially in an Objective based game.

Avoid them the whole game? Probably not.

Avoid them for at least 2 turns? No problem. Objectives don't matter until turn 5.

The point is that avoiding them for 2 turns makes the battle somewhat lopsided.

Oh yeah, and that's with C:SM. With DE I could avoid them for as long as I wanted.

SOFDC wrote:I'd be more interested in a test up against the biggest, "Wow that's cheezy" unit of grey hunters possible or against Strike Squad.

Yes sir!

GREY HUNTERS UNIT ALPHA
9x Grey Hunters: Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Power Weapon - 180pts
Wolf Guard: Combi-melta and Powerfist - 43pts
Rhino - 35pts
TOTAL - 258pts

For pretty much the same price (250pts) we can get 5 Ogryns and a Bone 'ead. Just for fun, we'll see how this would play out when...

EVERYTHING GOES THE OGRYNS' WAY

Ogryns shoot at the Grey Hunters (for this, we'll assume they don't, or can't, use the Wolf Standard):
18 S5 shots at BS3 = 9 hit, 5.94 wound (let's round to 6), 2 Grey Hunters die.

The Ogryns then charge, and the Space Wolves fail their counter-attack roll. Poor buggers. Space Wolves strike first, however (except for the Wolf Guard).
WS4 vs WS4
10 attacks from the regular Grey Hunters = 5 hit, 1.65 wound (we'll round to 2), 1.32 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 1).
2 attacks from the power weapon = 1 hit, .33 wound (we'll round to 0).
On average, about 4 attacks for the Wulfen = 2 hit, 0.66 wound (we'll assume this doesn't rend), 0.43 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 0).

So, so far, only 1 wounded Ogryn. Ogryns' turn to strike back:
25 attacks at S6 (!!!) for Furious Charge = 12.5 hit, 10.38 wound, 3.42 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 3).

However, the Wolf Guard gets to strike back now.
2 attacks at S8 = 1 hit, 0.69 unsaved wounds... so probably 1 dead Ogryn.

So, at the end of the turn, we've got 5 dead Grey Hunters, 1 dead Ogryn and an Ogryn with 1 wound... assuming I did my Mathhammer right. Of course, that's with everything to their advantage, and even then it's about even, but to be fair they're fighting Grey Hunters.

They are very good against Lightly armored infantry

ChocolateGork wrote:They are very good against Lightly armored infantry

So are 20 Guardsmen with lasguns and two flamers.

Ogryn are neat, but a CC Elite should be able to steamroll a Troop choice that it gets to shoot and assault.

I stopped reading after I saw 5 LC termies....I mean does anyone run this unit over Hammer/shield termies? The hammers would be wounding the Ogryns on 2s.

Now if only Ogryns can diversify themselves and take a Power Fist...

I run some LC in an Assault Squad, because the TH whilst great against most comers, certain armies with lots of PW's can be a knightmare. The low initiative of TH can be their undoing, The LC allow you a simultaneous rolls (dependant on iniaitive obviously) thinning the Enemy unit, before the TH puts in the Coup de grace. I have lost many an Assault Termie unit, to a Counter assault with PW's. Yes you may lose a few termies, but if you put in the Wounds you can draw or win the combat.

SS its 3+ Inv, (e.g 1/3 Chance of death) there are plenty of things out there that can get passed an Inv or force you to reroll (Null Zone), Warscythes etc. Or force alot of wounds by sheer weight of attacks.

OT though, I think Ogryns round out the IG nicely. Otherwise the only thing you will see is Power Blobs, grinding forward and grinding through your ranks.

While ogyrns are not competitive against all armies they are not useless.

They are stubborn, so if they are in an army with a lord commissar they should have a very solid leadership.

Ogyrns are T5 so power fists and thunder hammers won't instant kill them. That gives them the ability to take on TH/SS termies in CC without getting slaughtered via instant death.

The main problem is the use of ogyrns is that they are difficult to use. Between their large bases and single access hatch of the chimera mechanized deployment can be tricky. The only thing IG has going for them with the use of Ogryns is the other side will almost always come to the IG lines, so they can make an effective counter attack unit. Now the difficult part with a counter attack unit in a gunline is the gun line needs to soften things up for the counter assault unit before they assault. Against MEQ the melta vets would fire first and the counter assault units charge a weakened opponent.

Ogyrns are T5 so power fists and thunder hammers won't instant kill them. That gives them the ability to take on TH/SS termies in CC without getting slaughtered via instant death.

This is true, the terminators will at best (With BA/BT) have S9 hammers, so they can't ID them.

But Lysander can.
Or Arjac.
Or any BA librarian with sanguine sword.
Or any GK with a hammer and hammerhand.
Or any DCCW.

None of these is exactly a rare thing to see in a Terminator heavy list in a MEQ army with the possible exception of Arjac, and four of the five in the above list may actually be IN the squad of terminators you are thinking of charging the ogryns at. Let's go on to the things that can wipe ogryns out in the shooting phase, specifically, shooting that may come OUT of a charging terminatorstar at the ogryns, or units in close support of the charge!

GK/Vanilla vortex of doom (Hi! I'm one of the psychos that will TDA his librarian and run this!)
Warp rift (No one but me seems to take this one, and I cannot for the life of me see why. A pittance for in this case "Roll a 3+? Remove an ogryn." No, saves are not allowed.)
Vindicator cannons

Now the difficult part with a counter attack unit in a gunline is the gun line needs to soften things up for the counter assault unit before they assault. Against MEQ the melta vets would fire first and the counter assault units charge a weakened opponent.

Agreed. I do not advocate throwing ogryns at the nearest terminator deathstar, but if its the best of bad options this is the way to do it. I still say it should be hitting the power armor units (Especially ones like long fangs or dev if they can be reached) where it seems to be a much more efficient killer.

Hückleberry wrote:I stopped reading after I saw 5 LC termies....I mean does anyone run this unit over Hammer/shield termies? The hammers would be wounding the Ogryns on 2s.

That's what everyone says when I play them as Templars. Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

It's off topic but throwing Ogryns away by coing into close combat with Terminators is a bit silly when for the points (roughly) you can have 2 squads of plasma vets to shoot them to death.
Not forgetting other Guard favorites like S10 AP2 pie plates.

Ogryns are good for trampling Tau to death though.

Ogryn's are overcosted like people say, but then again... There are many units in the Imperial Guard codex that are remarkably undercosted. So, they are a 'fair' choice for friendly games, and they're not entirely terrible either...

For example, I was playing an 1850 point game against your typical mechanised eldar list, with my Orgyns and Lord Commissar in a chimera, they literally rampaged through the eldar army. By the end of the game, they had accounted for a unit of Dire Avengers, 2 Wave Serpents and a Fire prism. It wasn't too shabby at all.

So yes, if you've got the models and are fed up with people complaining at your club about 'beardy guard' take a squad, they won't cripple your army and they can do some good.

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hückleberry wrote:I stopped reading after I saw 5 LC termies....I mean does anyone run this unit over Hammer/shield termies? The hammers would be wounding the Ogryns on 2s.

That's what everyone says when I play them as Templars. Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

Only if you put them in a crusader. Terminators don't have frag grenades.

I love these threads.

Joey wrote:People often claim that ogryns, being the same price as Terminators, are worthless. Well, let's examine that.
words.
Lack of understanding the rules+words
more words
...clearly demonstrates that ogryns can take the fight to the best in the galaxy-and win.

starts with a "huh?"

Joey wrote:What? I've never heard of that rule.
*scurries off to consult rulebook*

Joey wrote:I can't find anything in the book and I haven't heard of it so i'd say I don't think such a rule exists.

I have just been through the book (clearly) and cannot find it so it doesn't exist kthnx

Joey wrote:I have NEVER played with this rule before. What page in the rulebook does it state this?

"they seem to really really believe this rule exists! w-where in the rulebook could it be!

Joey wrote:ah nevermind. page 26.

D'oh!

SOFDC wrote:Er. Ogryns are NOT useless, however:

Good words, thought out words, reasoning etc

mwnciboo wrote:Against a Skilled opponent on a standard board 6x4 you will struggle to avoid the Ogryn's. Especially in an Objective based game.

Hmmm people who have some experience it seems are saying they aren't useless...

Joey wrote:In my defence if I'd have been correct about wound allocation rules, Ogryns would be a fair choice. Rules as stands, however, yes they are massively over-priced.

but the OP doesn't care, because he's found ogryns don't take on "the Turbo Ginsu Over Nine Thoooussaaand terminator unit."

These threads make me laugh

SOFDC wrote:

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective. They are tough enough that your opponent will have to divert firepower into them to take them down, and if they DON'T, then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Getting guardsmen up field, especially to the other side of the board, involves transportation or alot of sacrificed guard. Forcing the guard player to come forward to the objectives is one of the best things in my experience you can do, as guardsmen don't like orders to move up. Ogryns are nice simple violence unit- point at objective and send them in. They aren't useless, they just aren't up to competitive level.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective.

Hence why I was very interested in seeing the math on Ogryns v. GH, because if ogryns are a viable choice against THAT, they are certainly going to be smashing anything less capable (BA Assault marines, Tacticals, crusader squads that aren't gigantic, to name a few.) except for GKs, for a variety of reasons.

And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Yes and no, at least with vanilla and BA who didn't roll a 1 on deployment. Combat tactics shenanigans allows for a lot of leeway with this, but overall you are correct. I've been attempting to point out that a better use for these is to hit his PA squads and support, to FORCE the opponent to make decisions like this. A unit of TH/SS in a raider on most boards is a huge chunk of his army, and a misstep with it means the IG players life got a whole lot easier, even as something as simple as him diverting his TH/SS to wipe out the ogryns contesting an objective removes them as a threat to the parking lot for two turns, at best.

Jihallah wrote:then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat..

Combat Tactics

Razerous wrote:

Jihallah wrote:then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat..

Combat Tactics

Yeah, you mean when the Tactical Marines fall back and the Ogryns consolidate within' 6 inches and potentially chase them off the table?

Combat tactics is good and all, but it's not quite what some people make it out to be.

Monster Rain wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Jihallah wrote:then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat..

Combat Tactics

Yeah, you mean when the Tactical Marines fall back and the Ogryns consolidate within' 6 inches and potentially chase them off the table?

Combat tactics is good and all, but it's not quite what some people make it out to be.

Of course, if you charge and then they combat tactic, your expensive Ogryns are now open for everyone to shoot at. Including the fleeing unit.

Jihallah wrote:

SOFDC wrote:

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective. They are tough enough that your opponent will have to divert firepower into them to take them down, and if they DON'T, then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Getting guardsmen up field, especially to the other side of the board, involves transportation or alot of sacrificed guard. Forcing the guard player to come forward to the objectives is one of the best things in my experience you can do, as guardsmen don't like orders to move up. Ogryns are nice simple violence unit- point at objective and send them in. They aren't useless, they just aren't up to competitive level.

Not to mention the fact that Ogryns have Frag grenades, so they can actually assault into cover on their own, unlike a certain unit we have mentioned in this thread *cough* Terminators *cough*

PraetorDave wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

SOFDC wrote:

Then they realize that, thanks to Furious Charge and rerolls to hit vs. everything with a WS, Templar LC Termies will feth up pretty much anything they charge.

He has a point with the Ultramarines codex, however. What was tested in the OP was vanilla LC terminators...which suck compared to TH/SS from the same book and when compared to LC terminators from BA or BT.

Speaking of the ultramarines codex, how about we look at the mathhammer of that Marine squad sitting on an objective that just got assaulted by the ogyrns? I think Ogryns have a value in being able to assault an objective. They are tough enough that your opponent will have to divert firepower into them to take them down, and if they DON'T, then 10 tac marines are not going to be taking down those ogryns any time soon- the Ogyns might not take them down soon either, but the job of contesting is done. And marines lacking a DCCW nearby or a unit of hammernators is going to struggle to remove that tac squad out of close combat.

Getting guardsmen up field, especially to the other side of the board, involves transportation or alot of sacrificed guard. Forcing the guard player to come forward to the objectives is one of the best things in my experience you can do, as guardsmen don't like orders to move up. Ogryns are nice simple violence unit- point at objective and send them in. They aren't useless, they just aren't up to competitive level.

Not to mention the fact that Ogryns have Frag grenades, so they can actually assault into cover on their own, unlike a certain unit we have mentioned in this thread *cough* Terminators *cough*

not to mention that they are I3 even with FC so would strike last anyway vs Marines

Well thats besides the point. At least if they charged terminators in cover they would hit before them. But we already covered why thats a bad idea.

Only real issue with Ogryns is their Ld value.

Otherwise, they are only internet-bad.

DarknessEternal wrote:Only real issue with Ogryns is their Ld value.

Otherwise, they are only internet-bad.

They are not bad per-se, in a vacuum they are okay. In the context of the IG playstyle they are a tool that is opposite to how the army plays best, and therefore are not good in most*** good IG lists.

Ratlings and Ogryns are both kind of a let down
Not either are really that bad, but they can all use a bit of boost.
For Ratlings, it's mostly the bad sniper rifle rule. They are actually one of the better sniper unit. Compare to Scouts or Rangers, they cost quite a lot less.
Ogryns can really use a Power Weapon, or some kind of upgrades for you to diversify them.

Jackster wrote:Now if only Ogryns can diversify themselves and take a Power Fist...

Here here!

I'd be happy really with the Bone'ead being able to take a power bayonet on his ripper gun like the Ogryns can in Dawn of War. that would at least give them some utility against things wearing armor.

To be honest, I always want Ogres to be decent, but every edition they end up lacking. At least we got the Penal Legion back in a rather interesting form. Maybe if the Ogryns got a chart to roll on like the Penal Legion that could give them better abilities (maybe based on how well they were fed before the battle?) A point cost reduction is a given. Quick idea just popped into my head, they get power bayonets that work for the first round of combat, but afterwards the abuse they take from being used as clubs renders them non functional for the rest of the battle? (power bayonet = regular power weapon for rules sake)

I have had ALOT of luck with Ogryn and have used them many times vs Terminators. Expecially Power fist terminators.

5 Ogryn charge, they get alot of attacks, high strength, The terminators counter attack (usually two or three down) and do a couple wounds, no ogryn die.

Well, people seem to have misunderstood the value of Ogryns. Sure, they may not have power weapons, but their statline+furious charge makes a horrible mess of troops like enemy guardsmen, hormagaunts, boyz and so on far more effectively than TH/SS termies. Their statline, practically equal of a Warboss, justifies their price.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Well, people seem to have misunderstood the value of Ogryns. Sure, they may not have power weapons, but their statline+furious charge makes a horrible mess of troops like enemy guardsmen, hormagaunts, boyz and so on far more effectively than TH/SS termies. Their statline, practically equal of a Warboss, justifies their price.

What would a 5 man Ogryn squad do vs a 30 man Ork boy unit? It would tie them up and might even kill them, and the Ogryns would cost more points, and use up an elite slot to tie up a troops slot.

I wish I could like Ogryns, but every edition of the Guard Codex has them flawed in some way.

They need something extra, pick one or more of the below:
1. Points cost reduction
2. Access to power weapons, even if only the Bone 'Ead.
3. Feel no Pain (fluff reasons, they are too dumb to die and shrug off just about anything)
4. Ogryn Commissars. (another great fluff piece, inspires them to greater acts of heroism since they see the commissar as having a direct line to the Emperor)
5. Rending, their insane strength lets them rip things limb from limb, and fluff has an Ogryn dragging a disabled chimera when asked to get the medkit that was inside of it for an officer.

They need something, right now, they have great looking models but rules that make them a poor choice.

Norsehawk wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Well, people seem to have misunderstood the value of Ogryns. Sure, they may not have power weapons, but their statline+furious charge makes a horrible mess of troops like enemy guardsmen, hormagaunts, boyz and so on far more effectively than TH/SS termies. Their statline, practically equal of a Warboss, justifies their price.

What would a 5 man Ogryn squad do vs a 30 man Ork boy unit? It would tie them up and might even kill them, and the Ogryns would cost more points, and use up an elite slot to tie up a troops slot.

I wish I could like Ogryns, but every edition of the Guard Codex has them flawed in some way.

Really, they aren't bad, they just don't fit in the guard codex
they clobber weak"ish" units, I have hundreds of lasguns in my lists that do this job
they throw tons of dice at thinks like TH terminators, again, lasguns
they are high toughness multiwound models, in may armies they will attract every heavy weapon on the board, defeating the purpose
they shoot a torrent of S5 fire at short range, which might be useful if they didnt wound the things I would want that for on a 5/6, when the 5 points guardsmen wound on a 6
Ive run them a few times, and while they do hammer T3/4 models fairly well, I really dont have an issue with those!

They are one of the best counter assault units for a hybrid list like mine. Also they are one of the units i can use to apply pressure on my opponents side of the board from the get go that does not require cover (they have a chimera). Did i mention that they can wreck transports pretty reliably in assaults? Their chimera will not be bogged down in terrain unlike infantry blobs that need to hug it to stay alive so by turn 3 i have reached the other side of the board while the opponent has to choose between firring at the ogryn's chimera, the veteran chimeras that are coming closer, the blob that is trying to tarpit him or the artillery/tanks/HWTs that are blasting him to kingdom come. No not useless...

Sorry, who is it in the whole world who's stupid enough to have a squad of 5 Lightning Claw terminators? And who's stupid enough not to have power weapons or plasma cannons specifically for such stupid units?

So here's what actually happens. Marine turn 1: Devestator squad kills off about 3 of the ogryns with heavy weapons. Guard turn 1: any attacks on the TH/SS terminators bounce off the armour/invun. The ogryn charges and gets mullered.

Ursa wrote:I have had ALOT of luck with Ogryn and have used them many times vs Terminators. Expecially Power fist terminators.

5 Ogryn charge, they get alot of attacks, high strength, The terminators counter attack (usually two or three down) and do a couple wounds, no ogryn die.

1. You are quite right, this was pure luck.
2. Yes, but that was power fist terminators. The only reason people have them is because: a) they got the assault on black reach set, or b) they want them to carry assault cannons of rocket launchers which can quite happily shred a squad of ogryns before the charge.
3. A lot of attacks at high strength are amazing at bouncing off a 2+ armour save, before you're wounded on a 2+ by even higher strength power fists.
4. There is no such word as "alot". It is, in fact, 2 words, namely "a" and "lot". It would be very nice if some people here learnt english before posting.

Your first three arguments are sufficient. There's no call for "learn English" type attacks. Thanks! ~Manchu

I think that post is really quite a fallacious statement.

For example, last I checked, Devastator (people in glass houses....) squads aren't armed with Demolisher Cannons, so it's going to be pretty difficult to instantly kill 3 Ogryns.

If anything, the most common devastator squad I see is 4 missile launchers, who'll kill... one ogryn, provided they all hit.

However, to clarify. Ogryn's are not going to be able to reliably take on terminators. That is playing into the Marines hands (fighting their opponents toughest units.) You're better off feeding the termies Guardsmen squads and using the ogryns on something else.

There was some maths earlier on Ogryns V Grey Hunters. I'm not certain Ogryns in reality cause many more points than the hunters, and after the fight will still be around to do some good.

The thing to remember is, are the things shooting at the ogryns enough to do damage, going to be shooting at something else if they weren't there. If they are, then they've bought your tanks some time. If they're just taking bolter fire that otherwise wouldn't have been able to shoot.... Then maybe it's worth rethinking.

In any case, my experience as I mentioned is. I wouldn't take them to a tournament again, but they're fun for club nights or games round mates houses.

p_gray99 wrote:1: Devestator squad kills off about 3 of the ogryns with heavy weapons.

man, that was some good lucky plasma fire or way more than one squad of devestators

Grundz wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:1: Devestator squad kills off about 3 of the ogryns with heavy weapons.

man, that was some good lucky plasma fire or way more than one squad of devestators

True, but I don't even need to use the devestators. I was simply making a point that it's never as simple as one squad vs. another squad.

Norsehawk wrote:I'd be happy really with the Bone'ead being able to take a power bayonet on his ripper gun like the Ogryns can in Dawn of War. that would at least give them some utility against things wearing armor.

To be honest, I always want Ogres to be decent, but every edition they end up lacking. At least we got the Penal Legion back in a rather interesting form. Maybe if the Ogryns got a chart to roll on like the Penal Legion that could give them better abilities (maybe based on how well they were fed before the battle?) A point cost reduction is a given. Quick idea just popped into my head, they get power bayonets that work for the first round of combat, but afterwards the abuse they take from being used as clubs renders them non functional for the rest of the battle? (power bayonet = regular power weapon for rules sake)

No one-use power weapons please. The Tallarn Rough Riders (and their horses) would like to have a word with you.

Ogryns are one of those units where it would be nice to have a squad, however, you could buy so many things in their stead, replacing their purpose with more bodies and bullets, which the Guard are infamous for. I could buy a Leman Russ in exchange for 5 Ogryns.

I've seen a couple people take a squad of five and a Lord Commissar and outflank using Creed to smash into enemy held objectives or combo-assault transports. It works to a degree but doesn't really make up their points, but its fun to watch a Long Fang's eyes pop out of their sockets when a hulking monstrosity clobbers the Alpo out of him.

I like the idea of their own 'combat drugs' chart, since their considered Ab-Human Mutants anyway. They could have a Mutation Chart which affects their statlines...

Why does everyone hate lightning claw termies they aren't as good as storm shield termies but I managed to kill five tyranid warriors with bone swords and a squad of hormagauntsthey can work well with chaplain

kavyaanshrike wrote:Why does everyone hate lightning claw termies they aren't as good as storm shield termies but I managed to kill five tyranid warriors with bone swords and a squad of hormagauntsthey can work well with chaplain

It's simply that you don't take a whole unit of them, else any decent opponent will wipe them out first turn with plasma cannon fire. 3 TH/SS minimum works well, more than 3 invun saves is either unlucky or the squad's had it anyway.

Well, ogryns are not supposed to fight things with a save better than 3+, since you have demolisher cannons and battle cannons that does that job. No, imagine this.
Your big combined squad is in melee with a squad of 10 necron warriors and a lord with RO. This melee could take a LONG time, and your big squad is all but tied up. Massed lasguns? they can't fire into melee, so good luck with them. Buuuuut.... enter the ogryns. They cant fire, but since the melee is already in action, they get a gauranteed charge. they can clobber a lot of Warriors, and while some might clamber to their feet, the RO makes sure that power weapons wouldn't have made as much difference. If you have a commissar with power fist/PW you can end the melee swiftly, and necrons are certainly not cheap. (yeah, i know, necrons will get new codex that doesnt seem....good) but this should work.

StormForged wrote:
Ogryns are one of those units where it would be nice to have a squad, however, you could buy so many things in their stead, replacing their purpose with more bodies and bullets, which the Guard are infamous for. I could buy a Leman Russ in exchange for 5 Ogryns.

Yes, but that's a silly thing to say, an Ogryn Squad cannot be wiped out by a single Krak missile can it? But a Leman Russ Tank can, it's too simplistic to say this is better than this because it is the same points.

Comparing like for like is fairer, for example a tactical Squad with a Grey Hunter Squad etc, etc. Saying things like take ML's instead of HB's because of longer range and the ability to be Anti Tank and anti infantry makes it more flexible than a Heavy Bolter is pretty fair.

kavyaanshrike wrote:Why does everyone hate lightning claw termies they aren't as good as storm shield termies but I managed to kill five tyranid warriors with bone swords and a squad of hormagauntsthey can work well with chaplain

Agreed, people who have hammernators only, will be vulnerable to high initiative assault units, like Genestealers with adrenal sacs and poison claws or DE assault units for example . On equal initiative, the LC's really help thin the ranks of attacks, with the re-roll to wound and that people get no armour save, so unless they have Inv, they is dead. The real killer is theThunderhammer but you need to protect them as they take time to strike, force enough wounds and you are laughing. 1/3 to kill on the Storm shield, so 15 PW or equivalent wounds will kill the Squad outright. But you don't even have to kill them all, just kill a few and instantly you have reduced the amount of returning attacks.

Lightning Claws get the re-role to wound, and don't suffer initiative problems, you get a pair so +1 attack, on the charge +1 attack. Lightning claws are design to thin enemy ranks before their weight on numbers cripples the Storm shield and hammer termies in the strike back. Terminator Chaplains and Assault termies are devastating.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Well, ogryns are not supposed to fight things with a save better than 3+, since you have demolisher cannons and battle cannons that does that job. No, imagine this.
Your big combined squad is in melee with a squad of 10 necron warriors and a lord with RO. This melee could take a LONG time, and your big squad is all but tied up. Massed lasguns? they can't fire into melee, so good luck with them. Buuuuut.... enter the ogryns. They cant fire, but since the melee is already in action, they get a gauranteed charge. they can clobber a lot of Warriors, and while some might clamber to their feet, the RO makes sure that power weapons wouldn't have made as much difference. If you have a commissar with power fist/PW you can end the melee swiftly, and necrons are certainly not cheap. (yeah, i know, necrons will get new codex that doesnt seem....good) but this should work.

Firstly, I agree. Ogryns are good at taking out Fire Warriors.

Secondly, Imagine this. There is a combined squad in melee with a squad of 10 necron warriors and a lord with RO. The melee could take a long time, so you decide to charge in the ogryns. Just before the ogryns reach the melee they are blown up by the new necron super-cannon-thing, or charged by flayed ones, or something else, and you lose the game.

What I'm saying is that, yes, in this situation ogryns work. However, what if they're on the other side of the board? or are blown up first turn? Or they're unlucky in close combat and get annihilated?

Ogryns can't be relied upon.


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mwnciboo wrote:

StormForged wrote:
Ogryns are one of those units where it would be nice to have a squad, however, you could buy so many things in their stead, replacing their purpose with more bodies and bullets, which the Guard are infamous for. I could buy a Leman Russ in exchange for 5 Ogryns.

Yes, but that's a silly thing to say, an Ogryn Squad cannot be wiped out by a single Krak missile can it? But a Leman Russ Tank can, it's too simplistic to say this is better than this because it is the same points.

Comparing like for like is fairer, for example a tactical Squad with a Grey Hunter Squad etc, etc. Saying things like take ML's instead of HB's because of longer range and the ability to be Anti Tank and anti infantry makes it more flexible than a Heavy Bolter is pretty fair.

Firstly, one lucky krak missile, especially if against it's front armour: a hit, then a 6, then a 5 or 6!

Also, we compared ogryns with their like, termies, and found that they fell down dead at first sight of them.

There is no such thing as luck, it's just chance. Like everything in this universe.

mwnciboo wrote:There is no such thing as luck, it's just chance. Like everything in this universe.

I couldn't agree more. Chances are that ogryns will fall down dead when they meet any real resistance. Chances are that a leman russ will survive such resistance, even if it came out damaged.

Fair enough, I just don't see the logic of replacing an Assault Infantry formation with a Tank. However yes, it is unlikely head on, it is still possible to total a Leman Russ with a single missile. An Ogryn squad however will take a single wound, I agree with all your earlier comments however.

So we've decided that ogryns aren't worth their points, and I think everyone here has agreed with this. However, don't let this put you off getting them: They're good models and probably fun to play with. Just don't expect them to be competitive.

Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

I have seen ogryns work ok in 2 ways. One we played a few test games with 3 groups of 5 ogryns in chimera's running down the middle of the field and some cheap shooty vets for objectives. Didn't work great, still lost the games to be honest, but that many tough mutli-wound models is just tough to deal with. The gmaes I tested where they worked ok was advancing in front of blobs as a screen. They need to be taken out because of the cover save they confer to the unit behind them and draw anti tank weapons off of other targets because their hi T makes them resistant to low str guns. They will never shine as a unit, they do either need a points reduction or a rending/power weapon option.

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

What about diversified nobz? I think it would go to the nobz everytime, but the ogryns could possibly tie up the nobz for awhile. Though it would honestly go down to who gets the charge, because whoever does strikes first. Anyone want to run the numbers?

PraetorDave wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

What about diversified nobz? I think it would go to the nobz everytime, but the ogryns could possibly tie up the nobz for awhile. Though it would honestly go down to who gets the charge, because whoever does strikes first. Anyone want to run the numbers?

I think we're missing the point here. IG have tanks and hordes of infantry that can deal with pretty much anything in the game. What they don't have is survivable units that aren't tanks, and even their tanks die if hit in the back with a heavy bolter.

Ogryns may be useful at surviving, and simply distracting any enemies. One possible tactic is charging towards Tau, and either using up their frepower for a turn, or do amazing amounts of damage.

However, I think it is their points cost that makes them so unusable

p_gray99 wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on...Just because they don't perform well against one enemy Unit e.g. Terminators. Is that enough to say it isn't competitive, bearing in mind that unit only features in two armies out of total of what 10? Surely we need a better Benchmark than just Hammernators?

At competition level tournaments, you don't just fight space marine terminators. It seems far to sweeping to say that Ogryn's aren't competitive. Versus assault Termies yes, you will probably lose but is that enough to say it is not competitive?

What about diversified nobz? I think it would go to the nobz everytime, but the ogryns could possibly tie up the nobz for awhile. Though it would honestly go down to who gets the charge, because whoever does strikes first. Anyone want to run the numbers?

I think we're missing the point here. IG have tanks and hordes of infantry that can deal with pretty much anything in the game. What they don't have is survivable units that aren't tanks, and even their tanks die if hit in the back with a heavy bolter.

Ogryns may be useful at surviving, and simply distracting any enemies. One possible tactic is charging towards Tau, and either using up their frepower for a turn, or do amazing amounts of damage.

However, I think it is their points cost that makes them so unusable

well the question mwnciboo posed was if orgyrns could hold up against something other than TH/SS terminators, and I posed a different unit. One that is also considered competitive, but for different reasons, and that would possibly be a more fair fight.

Norsehawk wrote:
What would a 5 man Ogryn squad do vs a 30 man Ork boy unit?

Win the assault. It's simple math.

Agreed, people who have hammernators only, will be vulnerable to high initiative assault units, like Genestealers with adrenal sacs and poison claws or DE assault units for example . On equal initiative, the LC's really help thin the ranks of attacks, with the re-roll to wound and that people get no armour save, so unless they have Inv, they is dead.

I'm sorry, but these are bad examples. Against dedicated DE assault units and genestealers (Or halberds, or LW + BS warriors, slaanesh marked CSM, hormagaunts, etc.) you swing last regardless of whether or not you have a hammer and shield, except some of your models are taking the heavy hits on a 5++ instead of a 3++. On equal initiative, you prevent nothing from coming in, and you again have reduced the amount of stormshields availible to take the harder smacks.

The best use I have found for taking LCs outside of a BA or BT list is to open up a second wound allocation group. That's about it. The lack of reliable access to furious charge or straight I5 makes them pretty horrible for forgoing the stormshield, the anti tank/MC/character ability of the hammer, the perks like one would get from vulkan in vanilla marines, etc. If you want to soften something up for the hammer units...Shoot it. Lightning claws are less than stellar at the role. (SW Wierdos, this does not apply to you. The huge cost increase you people take for the TH/SS combo gives you a very real reason to take claws instead. Yours are better than ours too.)

Anyway, back on topic. The new necrons are out, and it appears that almost everything they have to throw into CC is at I2, barring wraiths and HQs, and not many have better than a 3+ to protect them. So, this opens up new avenues for the Ogryns to prove their worth. Let's run the numbers on Ogryns against...say... Lychguard and Praetorians.

Ogryns got the triple whammy of ignored units: Does bad against the meta, goes against the army's style, and is not uniquely useful. They can be useful, with the current points, with the currents options, they just don't do well now.

I don't have the necron codex, but it looks like they are really similar. It would be hard to say, since Ogryns have more attacks, and if they get the charge, they swing first, but the lychguard have 3+ saves. I would probably give it to the lychguard, since they ignore the orgryns (admittedly awful) save, and have a good save. However, if the ogryns get the charge, they would definitely do a lot of damage.

I've tried Ogryns a few times and have been pretty disappointed.

Despite decent offensive presence, they aren't a true "hammer" unit.

And T5 with 3 Wounds does not a rock unit make. They do ok against most things, but anything that can throw out a large number of S5 hits will be taking them down quickly. I.e., BA on the charge, Berzerkers, most Tyranids.... you see what I'm driving at.

If they where about 10 points less, than I could forgive those deficiencies, but as it is... they're pretty tough to work with.

The only viable Ogryn is Nork, only because, fluff wise, he is the most badass non-space marine in the game. NORK!

I don't see where else this post can go. We've worked out that ogryns aren't viable pointswise: They aren't tough enough, they aren't strong enough, they aren't cheap enough. Whatever anyone else says, it won't really matter. They may be able to do a little damage to necrons, so will be taken out by numerous S10 blasts before they get there.
The thread may as well be closed. We've pretty much looked at every single aspect of the Ogryn and found that it isn't quite good enough. Don't bother arguing: There's 3 pages of posts before this to argue against before you argue with this one.

Ogryns are good to use as full backs in a foot slogging army and thats about it IMO. If the enemy shoots them then your big guns get close if they don't they have really disruptive melee units in thier ranks. but yeah ogryns are over costed and underpowered.


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Config2 wrote:The only viable Ogryn is Nork, only because, fluff wise, he is the most badass non-space marine in the game. NORK!

and points wise is proabably the wost buy in the whole codex

Majsharan wrote:Ogryns are good to use as full backs in a foot slogging army and thats about it IMO. If the enemy shoots them then your big guns get close if they don't they have really disruptive melee units in thier ranks. but yeah ogryns are over costed and underpowered.


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Config2 wrote:The only viable Ogryn is Nork, only because, fluff wise, he is the most badass non-space marine in the game. NORK!

and points wise is proabably the wost buy in the whole codex

And saying that he is the best non-space marine in the game is ridiculous. You claim that he is better than Ghazzy? Or Eldrad? Or Vect? The list goes on...

This thread can be summarized with a title change-

"Ogryns are NOT useless... Just mediocre"

And mediocre isn't particularly bad, depending on your local environment.

As part of a traditional British gaming club, ogryns fit in perfectly fine here,

Anyone thought to use the new mantic orc warboss or 'nob' equivalent units to model ogyns cheaply?

I love the ogryns. Everybody whines about how they can be oneshotted by demolisher cannons and such. Hello? Wake up please. If you know the slightest bit about IG, you have heard the word Chimera.

Simply hold them back, and either 1. the enemy shoots your army, in which case you win due to your artillery, or 2. the enemy charges forward. When in range, you just jump out of the chimera, take a turn of shooting (should be possible if you hide behind the chimera) and assault in, and what you do not crush is now held up for the rest of the game (unless they're supermonsters, in which case you should use lascannons and assault something else) Ogryns take care of almost everything, and what they don't kill, your vendettas can.



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Supermonsters and terminators.

I don't think IG want Ogryns to tangle with terminators unless there is no other choice. However there is evidence the IG player might need some Ogryns to help repel a Necron scarab swarm attack. I would think the Ogryns would be a good choice to help IG deal with that.

scarab farms can get to 28 scarabs on turn 2 and when spread out no amount of templates can do much damage to them, but when spread out to mitigate templates, then the scarabs are weakened versus an Ogryns attack on an edge.

kyranzor wrote:Anyone thought to use the new mantic orc warboss or 'nob' equivalent units to model ogyns cheaply?

No, but my current Ogryn squad are just WHFB Ogre leadbelchers, with the gnoblars filed off and grenades glued on.

My experience has been that Ogryn are useful against Tau and Eldar, and beyond that they are worth a ton of style points. Aside from them being cheaper, I really agree that the Bone 'ead needs the option of a power weapon, and maybe some other ranged weapon option, like maybe a grenade launcher, or flamethrower, but not plasma nor melta (too complex and fragile).

Also in the fluff, Ogryns have this weird mix of Bad and heartwarming. Tons of style point for using them.

Joey wrote:In my defence if I'd have been correct about wound allocation rules, Ogryns would be a fair choice. Rules as stands, however, yes they are massively over-priced.

You mean if we were playing a completely different game?

This and ID are why multi-wound model units are generally very weak.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

SOFDC wrote:I'd be more interested in a test up against the biggest, "Wow that's cheezy" unit of grey hunters possible or against Strike Squad.

Yes sir!

GREY HUNTERS UNIT ALPHA
9x Grey Hunters: Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, Power Weapon - 180pts
Wolf Guard: Combi-melta and Powerfist - 43pts
Rhino - 35pts
TOTAL - 258pts

For pretty much the same price (250pts) we can get 5 Ogryns and a Bone 'ead. Just for fun, we'll see how this would play out when...

EVERYTHING GOES THE OGRYNS' WAY

Ogryns shoot at the Grey Hunters (for this, we'll assume they don't, or can't, use the Wolf Standard):
18 S5 shots at BS3 = 9 hit, 5.94 wound (let's round to 6), 2 Grey Hunters die.

The Ogryns then charge, and the Space Wolves fail their counter-attack roll. Poor buggers. Space Wolves strike first, however (except for the Wolf Guard).
WS4 vs WS4
10 attacks from the regular Grey Hunters = 5 hit, 1.65 wound (we'll round to 2), 1.32 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 1).
2 attacks from the power weapon = 1 hit, .33 wound (we'll round to 0).
On average, about 4 attacks for the Wulfen = 2 hit, 0.66 wound (we'll assume this doesn't rend), 0.43 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 0).

So, so far, only 1 wounded Ogryn. Ogryns' turn to strike back:
25 attacks at S6 (!!!) for Furious Charge = 12.5 hit, 10.38 wound, 3.42 unsaved wounds (we'll round to 3).

However, the Wolf Guard gets to strike back now.
2 attacks at S8 = 1 hit, 0.69 unsaved wounds... so probably 1 dead Ogryn.

So, at the end of the turn, we've got 5 dead Grey Hunters, 1 dead Ogryn and an Ogryn with 1 wound... assuming I did my Mathhammer right. Of course, that's with everything to their advantage, and even then it's about even, but to be fair they're fighting Grey Hunters.

Ogryns are T5 so are not instant deathed by the Pfist. Overall very informative, but no Ogryns would die one would only have lost two wounds.

I went into cc w 3 ogryns v.s 5 sw terms geared for cc and 1 captin guy. I lasted 5 turns of cc, killed 3 terms and caused a wound on the commander. OGRYNS ARE NOT USELESS!! HO RAA!!!!

Ogryns are quite similar to orks, in physiology (though they lack fungus) and mind (simply like to smash things, and a simple faith in their respective deities)
Though, I dont care about theyir competetiveness. (though they are competetive) no, I take them for the same reason i take all the other things in 40k- i like the model/fluff.
Though they need to be made in plastic, and a drop in price.

I don't care if they aren't worth the points. I'm building a Brimlock Dragoon Regiment loosley based on the book Imperial Glory, and i plan on putting 6 Ogryns in a Vendetta. Expensive, yes, but intimidating i think.

Woah, woah, people are missing the point entirely here (mostly). If you are looking at ogryn ONLY by how much damage they do, and then compare that amount of damage per point to other units in the guard codex, you are ENTIRELY missing the point of ogryn.

The point of ogryn is field position. Power blobs may do more damage, but they take up a very large footprint, and so their force concentration is actually rather poor (which is why they have to win by attrition). Likewise, vehicles tend to be bad with field position as they can only get SO close to certain areas without just being horribly melta'd to death.

Ogryn are a "linebacker" squad that is used to force your way into certain areas on the field that you want to take posession of (which you then hold with different units like blobs). Very, very little else fills this role in the codex. You don't NEED to have this kind of a squad in a guard army, but they are very useful should you so choose to include them.

To give some examples of what I mean about ogryn and field position, take a look here or here, the former in which they hold down half of the opponent's forces by themselves (yes, they were terminators too), and in the latter, they push their opponent's off an objective, and then shield it from recapture.

They are not the most killy, but they are killy ENOUGH to do their job, which is to take hits (T5 units in cover are pretty tough to route out with shooting), take objectives, and take field position, all of which they do very well, even for their cost.

Couldnt agree more with Ailaros here. Ogrnys dont need to be as good as terminators. There an umph to your force your enemy probably isnt expecting.

Unlike killy terms, ogryns soak up a lot of fire, and distract multiple squads a turn (not to say terms dont do this as well) ogryns generaly do it better


Recomendation, a couple small ogryn squads near stracken.

Even as a firemagnet/tarpit, Ogryn are still overcosted. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the fluff and if the models weren't expensive and metal I would run them in my army, points cost be damned. And a unit working in a battle is not evidence of a unit not being overcosted, they do draw fire, and they make units nervous, but they A) are in the same slot as veterans, and B) they suck up points which could be more heavy/special weapons, tanks, other upgrades.

Ogryn aren't a tarpit unit. If they were, then I'd totally agree that they are overcosted for a tarpit unit, especially when two barebones infantry squad with a naked commissar is only 135 points.

As a fire magnet (once again, not something that's strictly speaking their job), they're actually not so bad. They provide target saturation with all guard vehicles, except they're much easier to get a 4+ cover save for. Plus, unless it's S10, it's basically worthless to shoot at them. 6 ogryn hiding inside a guard blob takes 8 marines with missile launchers TEN TURNS to wipe out.

Plus, in lists that aren't so hot on vehicles, they also provide target saturation with HWSs, which are actually somewhat tricky to keep alive in foot horde lists.

As such, when considering their cost with regards to them being a fire magnet, you have to reduce their cost by the number of points of stuff they help keep alive for another turn or two.

I would rather use TH/SS termies against ogryn... Lets see who wins that battle.

it's not about who does more damage with ogryn - they can't be judged purely by merits of their killing power.

Plus, if you're going just to say X counters Y, then I can say Z counters X, and we can go on forever.

Yes, they need to have some sort of power weapon or rending attack to be more competitive.

They are effective tarpits but not efficient tarpits.

They are expensive because they are elite units and offer something IG does not otherwise have - T5 and 3W.

To the Vendetta comment, ogryns cannot be transported there as per rules IIRC.

I ran them a lot and so speak from experience when I say they are underwhelming and too expensive for what they do, but are a lot of FUN to play because they are fluffy and surprise and scare the opponent. I normally ran them in a chimera with a Lord Commissar, who gives them leadership, summary execution, and a power weapon (they are already stubborn). But the lord is IC, so he gets singled out, and for him to hurt something, he needs a power fist, which makes him strike last. Once the commissar is dead, they will eventually run, even with stubborn, and then get swept. Or they will just die eventually. That buys more time for IG to shoot the rest of the army, but it also keeps the tarpitted units safe from being shot.

So, it is really a mixed bag and no way around it. I would take them in friendly games. Don't bring them to tournaments.

There is only one way to play ogryns. Put five in a chimera, put a dozer blade on it, extra armour, and shove yarrick in there for good measure. the extra armour to keep you moving, and, the dozer blade to keep you moving over that terrain without issues.

when you charge, with yarrick in the mix, it is a blend of superb kick butt goodness.

Yes, i know it is a major point sink, but, hey, it is fun as all gets out. nothing like wiping out a squad of some sort of marines or there unit they thought was going to to good. it is more fun when they blow up the chimera, then, there are 5 ogryns and yarrick looking all mad because they have to walk. the attack on the charge is great. re-rolls, strength 6, it goes on and on.

I'm trying to revive my old 4th edition army, and I have 5 Ogryns with 2 CCW and no ripper guns. Are they useless now?

martin74 wrote:There is only one way to play ogryns. Put five in a chimera, put a dozer blade on it, extra armour, and shove yarrick in there for good measure. the extra armour to keep you moving, and, the dozer blade to keep you moving over that terrain without issues.

when you charge, with yarrick in the mix, it is a blend of superb kick butt goodness.

Yes, i know it is a major point sink, but, hey, it is fun as all gets out. nothing like wiping out a squad of some sort of marines or there unit they thought was going to to good. it is more fun when they blow up the chimera, then, there are 5 ogryns and yarrick looking all mad because they have to walk. the attack on the charge is great. re-rolls, strength 6, it goes on and on.

Lash+vindicator makes yarrick a lonely man. It's a huge point sink for a unit that's pretty much only useful in CC and is pretty easy to negate.

They aren't horrendous, but I'd never throw them into a unit of terminators, especially LC ones

Even against rank and file marines, they can do well.

I have run the Yarrick/ogryn (5 strong)/chimera for a while now in 2000 points or more. The first time someone plays against it they pretty much ignore the fact that it is a guard unit. Once the assault is on, the Ogryns get the charge, they soon become a priority target, thus, freeing up the demolishers, battle tanks, and other heavy fire power that the guard is known for.

I have seen 2-4 LC termies with 4-6 THSS just for I4 against against Tau/Crons/Orks
But I rock 7 THSS with a Lib and LRR!!

AllYourBase wrote:I have seen 2-4 LC termies with 4-6 THSS just for I4 against against Tau/Crons/Orks
But I rock 7 THSS with a Lib and LRR!!

Uh, okay?

I was replying to what i now know was way earlier in the post.. /facepalm

ChronoDK wrote:I'm trying to revive my old 4th edition army, and I have 5 Ogryns with 2 CCW and no ripper guns. Are they useless now?

So - I revive this thread asking a question and everybody starts talking about something else. Please, are my Ogryns useless when armed with 2 CCW and no ripper guns?

ChronoDK wrote:

ChronoDK wrote:I'm trying to revive my old 4th edition army, and I have 5 Ogryns with 2 CCW and no ripper guns. Are they useless now?

So - I revive this thread asking a question and everybody starts talking about something else. Please, are my Ogryns useless when armed with 2 CCW and no ripper guns?

Yes. There is no option for that weapon loadout in the current IG Codex. Ripper guns are the only weapon they have.

Just strap a big gun on their backs in a sling - as they can not have 2 CCW and have no options to speak of, they would be fine to use then!

Massaen wrote:Just strap a big gun on their backs in a sling - as they can not have 2 CCW and have no options to speak of, they would be fine to use then!

This. Hell, you could use a couple of plastic Autocannons from the IG heavy weapons set, cut down a bit.

Allright, I will try something like that. Too bad they changed the rules. Ogryns look awesome with two CCWs.