I have seen this debate before on here(except it was only ground battles) and I have seen many IOM vs GE threads and I was wondering what would happen if there was a all out war between the two forces? We all know that the GE could win because it has faster FTL speeds and the IOM could win because it has more numbers. So here is my scenario for this debate
Scenario: What would happen if a few portals opened up in the IOM territory to several planets in Star Wars a few days after the battle of Hoth?
Also what would happen if one portal was opened during the battle of Hoth instead of many?
How much faster would this war go if every IOM ship was upgraded with Hyperdrives how would that work?
How would they do if the IOM invaded with just the way they are?
The IoM has far superior numbers, but not necessarily better technology, and that makes a huge difference. I doubt a squad of ten Jedi would have much trouble defeating hundreds of Guardsmen, or even Space Marines.
Although it entirely depends on the time. If this is The Old Republic time-framed then the IoM would lose. If this is Episode 4 (and indeed Galactic Empire) and onward time-framed, then the IoM would probably win, although I haven't read any of the Star Wars books. (I do recall there being lightsaber proof armor, which would probably equate to power-sword-proof armor).
Also, the basic soldier weapons of the SW universe are a heck of a lot more powerful than the weapons of the Imperial Guards lasgun.
I would give it to the Galactic Empire, simply because their tech is better and more powerful. and Jedi don't have the possiblity of having their brains explode when they use their powers. Force Lightning FTW.
While the Imperium has, indeed, a million worlds... it's only got one race. The Galactic Empire, the Republic, the Old Republic, the Sith Empire, whatever, has a million worlds (or more) of a thousand or more species, all of which bring their own special xeno abilities and technologies to the art of warfare and, like the IoM, are versed in the strategy of "total war". While both Librarians and Psykers can be (and are) rather powerful, the SW universe contains far more examples of "alpha-plus" than the 40K universe does. Also, the SW "psykers" don't risk warp corruption, daemonic incursion or rampant insanity.
The Galactic Empire has far superior ftl drives, far superior weapons ( at least if we go by the calculations on Stardestroyer.net and compare them to what we see in the warhammer fluff), including various planetkillers, shields which protect a planet from all conventional bombing, and possibly even comparable numbers as well as superior production capabilities ( when was the last time that the Imperium of Man built two moonsized stations, alongside a huge conventional fleet, in less than twenty years? ).
KingDeath wrote:The Galactic Empire has far superior ftl drives, far superior weapons ( at least if we go by the calculations on Stardestroyer.net and compare them to what we see in the warhammer fluff), including various planetkillers, shields which protect a planet from all conventional bombing, and possibly even comparable numbers as well as superior production capabilities ( when was the last time that the Imperium of Man built two moonsized stations, alongside a huge conventional fleet, in less than twenty years? ).
What do you mean various planet killers? There has only been one, and that was the deathstar.
KingDeath wrote:The Galactic Empire has far superior ftl drives, far superior weapons ( at least if we go by the calculations on Stardestroyer.net and compare them to what we see in the warhammer fluff), including various planetkillers, shields which protect a planet from all conventional bombing, and possibly even comparable numbers as well as superior production capabilities ( when was the last time that the Imperium of Man built two moonsized stations, alongside a huge conventional fleet, in less than twenty years? ).
What do you mean various planet killers? There has only been one, and that was the deathstar.
And superior weapons? Really?
They built two deathstars in the movies as well as various other superweapons in the various books.
The superior firepower comes from the nice calculations found here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html So far no Imperial Frigate, the closest equivalent to a stardestroyer in size, managed to show something comparable.
Hmm... I used to love Star Wars. Then episode 1 came out.
Well... where to begin. I'll start with my take on SW.
Star Wars is 3 movies known as episodes 4, 5 and 6. It was also a wonderful series of books that enriched the background and explained much about the SW universe.
Then one day some jerk with the initials JL felt he needed more money and completely destroyed the SW universe. After his evil masterplan (episode one) a huge army of newbs overwhelmed the universe of SW and it switched from a beautiful universe to a silly piece of junk.
I'm an ol' fassion SW fan. In my eyes, nothing exists outside of the original 3 films and the entire series of books up until the Jedi Academy novels (which almost coencided with the release of episode 1).
I feel that Jedi are over-rated. If you like the newer SW stuff then you like the idea of Jedi being killed by mass firepower (Episode 2).
The Imperium outclasses the empire in every way. The Empire is a racist force of humans trying to enslave or execute any non-human race. The common folk of the galaxy don't like Palpatine. The fleets of the empire require the Emperor to make their forces work in tandem. Star Destroyers are relatively small in comparison to IoM ships. GE ships are armed with lasers, laser cannons, ion cannons, tractor-beams and topedoes. They also have a large number of TIE craft and onboard stormtrooper formations. Star Wars space battles happen at incredibly close range. Unrealisticly close. The GE protects it's ships with energy sheilds, complicated manuvers overlapping feilds of fire and smaller fighting vessels.
The Imperium is also racist. However, they want the complete destruction of all non-humans and humans with different ideology. The citizens of the Imperium love the Emperor. The fleets of the Imperium need the Emperor to help them move great distances. Imperium ships are colossal vessels that dwarf any of the Empires ships barring the Eclipse Class star destroyer and the Death Stars (of which there were 3 btw). The IoM ships are armed with lasers, laser cannons, torpedoes, nova cannons and (If including Space Marines) drop pod assult transports and thunderhawks. They also have onboard defensive forces as well as possible armies in transport. The Imperial space battles happen at great range (hundreds of kilometers). The IoM defends its vessels with energy sheilds, complicated manuvers, overlapping feilds of fire and smaller fighting vessels.
The Empire could put up a fight but would ultimately fall. The Imperium can attack from longer range and upon reaching close quarters would be smashed under the firepower of the 40K ships or the unrelenting waves of boarding craft.
On the matter of land engagements it's also no contest. Everything the GE can bring to battle the IoM can bring aswell... only bigger and covered with more weapons.
On the matter of super weapons again it is no contest. The GE has the Death Star II (and technically the Darksaber) both fantastically powerful weapons that can shatter a ship or a planet.
The IoM has planet killing capabilities on most of the larger vessels in the form of Exterminatus payloads. Thou, Exterminatus isn't used on enemy starships but, that's what nova cannons are for.
The basic troopers of the armies (Guardsmen and Stoormtroopers) are quite equally matched but the IoM has a greater range of support for the troops on the ground.
Super soldiers... well we all know Space Marines. The Empire really doesn't have something on par with the Astartes. Perhaps a Jedi... but, we're talking about the "after Hoth" timeline. So we have Luke, Vader and a few other unknown Jedi at the time.
The Imperium is superior but, I'd actually see them teaming up if anything.
I still love Star Wars. It doesn't matter to me how bad Eps 1-3 were, they don't take away from the awesomeness of the setting for me. In fact, I think I like the EU more than the holy trilogy, over all, because the greatest thing Lucas ever did with Star Wars was give us a setting as a background in which to write original stories.
Star Wars is fine without canon-characters or original-movie-characters making any appearances. You can still have Jedi and Sith and droids and space ships and everything else and, so long as you don't go too way-out-in-left-field with the writing, still have a kick-ass Star Wars story.
Heck, as much as I dislike what the prequels established, I still love the current Clone Wars cartoons. They're better than the movies, that's for damn sure.
Though we've had this discussion before... Nova Cannons are great, but found on only a handful of IN vessels. Titans are cool, but there's only so many of them, and most of them seem to be smaller than an AT-AT. Space battles in SW seem to be at short-range only because we have very little to go by as a frame of reference. It's also a concession to a movie audience. What good is a space battle if all you see is one ship shoot a laser at... nothing, because the enemy ship is so far away you can't see it? If you want to know the actual ranges at which SW ships are in combat, check Wookieepedia or any of the SW tech books for the ranges of their weapons and Imperial tactics and such.
Also... yes, keep launching your boarding torpedoes and such at deflector shields. That's what the hundreds-to-thousands of point-defense turrets on Imperial starships are for. Boarding parties exist in SW, too. Shoot, I think there's a lot of one appearing in the other, and it's pretty well designed or intended that way. It's artistic inspiration... and artistic method, at this point. The two are so very similar.
We've had this conversation before, I would suggest finding the previous thread on it.
Is that even canon? And even then, I'm calling BS.
If they were really that powerful...how did they get slaughtered? No really, why didn't they just force push the Clone Troopers away against the walls when they turned traitor?
If they are powerful enough to pull a friggen starship out of orbit then they should be able to take out a bunch of foot soldiers without any difficulty.
It all comes down to how good are jedi against IoM forces when in "reality" the SW universe couldn't field jedi in a force that would counter a IoM battlefleet. Sure, 1 jedi can beat 1 SM (maybe), but let's say there are 3 companies of space marines sent the Hoth portal. That's roughly 300 space marines plus various vechiles and eqipment. Pretty sure there weren't 300 jedi during the GE era. Let's not forget the numerous IG regiments that would be sent there also. And while the GE may have stronger fleet weapons, their numbers pale in comparision. You would have something similar (in terms of space warfare) to the Battle of Thermopoly (spartans vs persians), eventually numbers will win.
There wasn't 300 Jedi during the GE era. There were, at most, 3. There were, however, a fethload of Sith-trained Force Users (Emperor's Hands... think Death Cult Assassins with throat-crushing, head-exploding, laser-and-explosion-dodging, lightning-throwing, red-lightsabre-wielding Force powers) running about bringing the unrighteous, stone cold secret Force-Ninja-Kill to anyone Palpatine pointed them at.
Is that even canon? And even then, I'm calling BS.
Yes and I don't care. Unlike GW, the Star Wars franchise has an established canon. Force Unleashed, as with any SW video game, is rated only S-Canon... but that establishes it as true within the SW universe until another source comes along and says that it, specifically, is not.
So, yeah, Galen Starkiller pulled a Star Destroyer out of orbit and crushed a small army with it.
Also didnt they cloan star killer, so in theory they could make multiple cloans of him giving them any army of jedis with that level or near it of ability?
Also if this conflict would occur remember that the IoM still has all of its other fronts as well.
Also is the Warp even in the SW galaxy? Because if its not, then the GM has it hands down as they have FLT and the Iom would only have sublight.
The argument is made, from the 40K perspective, that since it supposedly exists in all times and places, it exists in the SW universe.
Which is fine to me, because that does not interact with the Force in any way. The Force is not "psyker power", it's an energy created by all living things and, for some, it is life itself. Be Warp-Resistant all you like, the Force is not warp-craft and cares not for your little glowy runes.
The SW universe's FTL transport is a hundred times, or more, faster than anything in the 40K universe. Crossing the galaxy (whatever galaxy they're in) in SW is a trip of a couple weeks, at most. That is months to years in 40K, with no guarantee you will ever arrive. Of course, we don't know if the SW universe is smaller than the Milky Way or what, but even still... hyperspace is really, really, really fast.
Yeah, I was going to add that before we digressed any further...
... though Necros vs Anzat (the Immortal Space-Vampire Undeady Things) from SW might be an interesting thing... though as the Anzat only show up in a very few SW sources, I'm not sure what sort of military capabilities they have...
Simo429 wrote:I think people are vastly over rating Jedi's.
The clone troopers who at the end of the day were just very well trained normal humans took thousands of them down.
Exactly. So what if a solitary Jedi could take down a star ship? That was one guy, a rare occurrence. If every single Jedi could do that then they wouldn't have been wiped out.
That would be like saying any marine could rip tanks in half, just because a primarch could.
Again, they did clone star killer, so it could be doen again, ang again, and again, and again, etc etc.
Thus it could be possible to have an army of these individuals. Along with the cloaning techs that make cloans compleatly obidiant it would be a very potent force.
jacetms87 wrote:Again, they did clone star killer, so it could be doen again, ang again, and again, and again, etc etc.
Thus it could be possible to have an army of these individuals. Along with the cloaning techs that make cloans compleatly obidiant it would be a very potent force.
Until the thrawn books you couldn't clone people that quickly and then you had to have the specialised creatures that I can't spell to do it.
GKs are totally ass-kicking motherfethers with psychic powers and force weapons... until someone drops a psychic nullifying effect and takes all that away.
Sort of the same thing with the Jedi in the Clone Wars. The Force was becoming "clouded", which prevented most of their precognitive powers from working. Think of it as "Shadow of the Warp" or something similar to that.
Of course, there is also the fact that when you're filming a prequel trilogy that changes certain previously-fundamental facts about a setting or story, certain things are going to happen that might not otherwise have been possible. Think of it as "plot armor", but in reverse. There needed to be no Jedi at the end of the Clone Wars, excepting Yoda and Kenobi, balanced by 2 Sith on the other side, Sidious and Vader... and the 501st Stormtrooper Legion was already going to be a thing, and so you have Jedi dying by the dozens (not thousands, there weren't that many Jedi left at the time) to Clone Troopers.
This besides the fact that the Jedi of this era were a shadow of the former strength and glories of the Jedi (such as the Jedi of the Army of Light, circa 2000 years BBY)... of course, so were the Sith, but that's a different matter.
But, on yet another hand, do you really need more than one Jedi of that power? If a single Primarch on the field of battle during the Great Crusade could determine the course of the battle, then having a single Jedi of that power is much the same thing. You don't need an army of Primarchs when one will suffice. One Starkiller, or one Vader, or, hell, one Revan might be enough to swing the battle in the Empire's favor.
Getting more into the "mechanics" of the game, for example... let's say one of these Jedi has the Force-power Battle Meditation. This only makes an in-universe appearance in KOTOR, but is mentioned several times throughout EU novels, a couple comics, KOTOR2, and so forth. This power, in a 40K sense, adds a bonus to WS, BS and LD for your side, and requires the opposing side to take an LD test every time they want to do something.
Of course, this is not to say that the GE would stomp a mudhole in the IoM or anything like that... these will not be lopsided, easy win battles for either side, no matter who wins.
... but, again, this is old ground that we are treading here, and there's a thread on this very topic probably 5 pages back already in this or the Background forum.
Until the thrawn books you couldn't clone people that quickly and then you had to have the specialised creatures that I can't spell to do it
Yeah, sort of. However, they did clone Starkiller, that's part of the premise of Force Unleashed 2 since you (spoilery spoilers ahead if you care don't keep reading, omgomgomg spoilers, don't say I didn't warn you) die, like in a huge, violently explosive, ain't-no-way-anyone-survived-that way at the end of Force Unleashed.
I have played force unleashed but I'm not sure if you would class it as canon, normally games aren't written with fluff in mind.
I would, as the Holocron, Lucasarts' internal database of canon and continuity, lists all Star Wars video games as canon to the setting, assigning them a canon rating of S-canon (Secondary canon).
The Galactic empire has clones. The imperium doesnt. If they managed to rebuild the Star Forge and have Bastillas battle meditation the Imperium would not have had a chance.
Besides if the elite clone troopers beyond the skill of stormtroopers cant kill a few teenagers running around, do space marines have a chance?
The Cheese! THE CHEESE!
Space Crusader wrote:The Galactic empire has clones. The imperium doesnt. If they managed to rebuild the Star Forge and have Bastillas battle meditation the Imperium would not have had a chance.
Besides if the elite clone troopers beyond the skill of stormtroopers cant kill a few teenagers running around, do space marines have a chance?
The Cheese! THE CHEESE!
Well yes, because the Marines are a lot nastier than the clone troopers.
Close combat/force on force; IoM will more likely win if SM were a huge component of the Task Force assigned for ground operation. If straight up between Imperial Guard and Clone/Storm troopers then GE will more likely win due to the amount fire power the GE is able to bring to bear. Course it depends who arrive on the battlefield with most infantry and support and able to dictate the flow of the battle. Terrain another major factor to.
Air Supremacy be up in the air due to how armor IoM aircraft air compare to the amount of Tie fighters/bombers the GE is able to field. Huge factor to determined that outcome is aircraft support IE; airfield support either on ground or vessel bays. Ability to replace, rearm, refuel, and repair aircrafts is a huge factor that plays out over the course of the battle.
Naval Combat; well....besides Star Destroyers I do know there were two super star destroyers GE had. As for naval make up of IoM no telling what would come into battle. All depends on the make up of the fleet and what each side is willing to commit. If protracted over a seris of battle I edge towards GE due to the fact the IoM flow of information is to say the least....slow. Information is gold
just saying this off the top of my mind. There's more to it then stating who will win and why. Logistics a Mofo and unforgiven if screwed up on the get go
Firstly quantity has a quality all of its own, the imperium can filled armies of trillions something that the emipre just cannot do.
Secondly because of elite troops, I don't believe that your average Jedi could take your average space marine and to go back to my first point there are a million space marines in the Imperium of man there are <10 Jedi in the empire.
Thirdly the length to win a war that the factions would go, the Empire destroyed one planet to win a war, the imperium would destroy a 100 planets just to slow down a loss.
I would say the imperuim of man is far superior to the Galatic Empire.
The IOM has lasted ten thousand years fighting multiple races and empires while the Galactic Empire struggles to fight rebels.
where you get force users in the Galatic Empire who are in small numbers you get psykers who are in large numbers in the IOM
And I'll sate this, if an Army of stormtroopers can get overwhelmed by 3ft tall ewoks then I don't see how they can face IOM without getting their arses handed to them.
Basing off the movies/hollywood/books on the capabilities of military units is far fetch. Ewoks won because ewoks were cute. Tyranids will win because they have the "Aliens" concept going for them. IoM will win because they have the human wave attacks. GE will win because of the emperor. IoM will win because they're willing to "scortch earth planets. GE will win because they experiment with a "Zombie" virus. IoM will win because they have Space Marines. GE will win because they have Dark Troopers. GE will win because they're willing to contaminate the Bacta supply for the galaxy. IoM will win because they have Ultramarines. GE will win because they employ Talon Karde/Bobba Fett. IoM will win because everyone thinks the Jedi/Sith will be a major factor in unit deployments. Are we including rebels with GE? IoM will win because they have Inquisition...who the hell would say no to a inquisitor besides a Space Marine Chapter Master? GE would win because when the population of the IoM see the higher standard of living of the typical GE civilian they will revolt and start a civil rights movement. GE civilian will enlist into the GE military cause they sure as hell don't want to live IoM standard of living. IoM will win because their society is geared towards war production. Rebels will join the GE when they see how worse the IoM government is compared to the Emperor.
well...
If I was GE...I do a drive by nuke sacraficing as many ships as I need too to vaporize the golden throne just to unleash the daemons from the warp to do clean up
Jihadin wrote:Basing off the movies/hollywood/books on the capabilities of military units is far fetch. Ewoks won because ewoks were cute. Tyranids will win because they have the "Aliens" concept going for them. IoM will win because they have the human wave attacks. GE will win because of the emperor. IoM will win because they're willing to "scortch earth planets. GE will win because they experiment with a "Zombie" virus. IoM will win because they have Space Marines. GE will win because they have Dark Troopers. GE will win because they're willing to contaminate the Bacta supply for the galaxy. IoM will win because they have Ultramarines. GE will win because they employ Talon Karde/Bobba Fett. IoM will win because everyone thinks the Jedi/Sith will be a major factor in unit deployments. Are we including rebels with GE? IoM will win because they have Inquisition...who the hell would say no to a inquisitor besides a Space Marine Chapter Master? GE would win because when the population of the IoM see the higher standard of living of the typical GE civilian they will revolt and start a civil rights movement. GE civilian will enlist into the GE military cause they sure as hell don't want to live IoM standard of living. IoM will win because their society is geared towards war production. Rebels will join the GE when they see how worse the IoM government is compared to the Emperor.
well...
If I was GE...I do a drive by nuke sacraficing as many ships as I need too to vaporize the golden throne just to unleash the daemons from the warp to do clean up
Have fun dying as you try to breach the most heavily defended areas in the Imperium of Man.
Jihadin wrote:Basing off the movies/hollywood/books on the capabilities of military units is far fetch. Ewoks won because ewoks were cute. Tyranids will win because they have the "Aliens" concept going for them. IoM will win because they have the human wave attacks. GE will win because of the emperor. IoM will win because they're willing to "scortch earth planets. GE will win because they experiment with a "Zombie" virus. IoM will win because they have Space Marines. GE will win because they have Dark Troopers. GE will win because they're willing to contaminate the Bacta supply for the galaxy. IoM will win because they have Ultramarines. GE will win because they employ Talon Karde/Bobba Fett. IoM will win because everyone thinks the Jedi/Sith will be a major factor in unit deployments. Are we including rebels with GE? IoM will win because they have Inquisition...who the hell would say no to a inquisitor besides a Space Marine Chapter Master? GE would win because when the population of the IoM see the higher standard of living of the typical GE civilian they will revolt and start a civil rights movement. GE civilian will enlist into the GE military cause they sure as hell don't want to live IoM standard of living. IoM will win because their society is geared towards war production. Rebels will join the GE when they see how worse the IoM government is compared to the Emperor.
well...
If I was GE...I do a drive by nuke sacraficing as many ships as I need too to vaporize the golden throne just to unleash the daemons from the warp to do clean up
Have fun dying as you try to breach the most heavily defended areas in the Imperium of Man.
This and...
There are beings in the Astartes that match the emperor.
Space Marines > Dark Trooper
I doubt Bobba Fett would kill anyone of importance
You all would still die.
Jihadin wrote:hence sacraficing ships to breach the defense around earth just to get a couple nukes in. Who says Tie fighters/shuttles can't carry nukes?
Who said they can?
Tie Fighters are pretty small, They arn't going to be carrying very big nukes. And does Star Wars even have Nukes?
Shuttles are very slow and clunky.
Even assuming this can happen, there are too many other variables for them to do this. How many ships would it take to create such an opening(my guess is the entire Imperial Fleet) How many fighters would it take to get past the defenses(uncountable) How do they know where the Sanctum Imperialis is? Can a Nuke even damage the darn thing(Shielding, Physical defense)
Grey Templar wrote:
Even assuming this can happen, there are too many other variables for them to do this. How many ships would it take to create such an opening(my guess is the entire Imperial Fleet) How many fighters would it take to get past the defenses(uncountable) How do they know where the Sanctum Imperialis is? Can a Nuke even damage the darn thing(Shielding, Physical defense)
This. There is no way whatsoever that the GE is gonna get through. Think the Death Star is impressive? Just look at Luna...
No doubt the Deathstar is awsome in a one on one fight, but there is only 1, its pretty slow, and its basically a planet.
I would like to see what a Clyclonic Torpedo does to the deathstar, and the IoM can fire lots of ordinance to break through the shields to deliver these planet killers.
I hesitate to bring something like the Death Star into the equation, because against the sorts of things the IoM fields in space, it's an "I win" button.
The super-laser of the DS is similar to a lance strike, in that it is a continuous pulse of energy rather than a "bolt" of energy. Concentrated for even a fraction of a second on a Void Shield, that shield is going to overload and collapse, shortly thereafter followed by the ship behind said shield exploding. The firing rate of such a weapon is fairly low... but it's still faster than anything of equal measure in the Imperium's side (based on length of combat rounds in RT and BFG).
Though, overall, while the Galactic Empire is iconic in the SW universe, there were much larger, much more powerful empires in the history of the SW universe.
Oh, also... forget clones, you can produce a legion of IG-88, or HK-47, assassin droids, or droids of similar models and capabilities, in a matter of hours.
Droids would be a force to be reckoned with, but hardly insurmountable.
The Ad mech could design a computer Virus to take them down if it really can to it, or use EMP attacks to just fry them.
And Assassin Droids would just be used as front line troops. using them as Assassins would be a little difficult as the IoM doesn't use robots, they would stick out like a Honda Civic at a Bike Rally.
Then the IoM has Guardsmen and tons of tanks. The Star Wars universe has tanks, but they don't seem to be a major focus. I don't see much in the way of infantry portable anti-tank weaponry, especially on droids. maybe a larger Blaster and a missile launcher, but they seem almost like afterthoughts in the way of dispensing them to troopers. They really rely on armor engaging armor.
Psienesis wrote:I hesitate to bring something like the Death Star into the equation, because against the sorts of things the IoM fields in space, it's an "I win" button.
The super-laser of the DS is similar to a lance strike, in that it is a continuous pulse of energy rather than a "bolt" of energy. Concentrated for even a fraction of a second on a Void Shield, that shield is going to overload and collapse, shortly thereafter followed by the ship behind said shield exploding. The firing rate of such a weapon is fairly low... but it's still faster than anything of equal measure in the Imperium's side (based on length of combat rounds in RT and BFG).
Though, overall, while the Galactic Empire is iconic in the SW universe, there were much larger, much more powerful empires in the history of the SW universe.
Oh, also... forget clones, you can produce a legion of IG-88, or HK-47, assassin droids, or droids of similar models and capabilities, in a matter of hours.
Yet the death star is destroyed by a few fighters in both movies.
Since this thread JUST happened...let's switch from the old topic to something new-how about the IoM vs. Magneto and his chosen team of mutants? Oh...right, Magneto wins. He crushes all the Space Marines in their armor, sics Wolverine, Sabertooth, X-23, and Deadpool on any survivors (healing factors, y'all), and Fabian Cortez boosts Magneto's powers to levels where he just crushes anything in his way. I'd say Mags and Cortez could do it alone, but I'm giving the IoM the benefit of the doubt. Plus Magneto has his little force-shield. I'd say he's pretty well safe, especially since we know the imperium uses a lot of adamantium based equipment, and we all know how he works with that Also...to the OP...did you REALLY start the IoM vs SW thread while the old one is LOCKED ON THE FIRST PAGE?!
well...first one by trusting in the force and when to apply the 5lbs trigger squeeze to launch a photon torpedo. 2nd one was design flaw. If planning the defense of the 2nd DeathStar I and the rest you all would not leave tunnels with a straight shot into the core undefended or open. As far advance as GE I'm sure they make small enough to get into a tie fighter. Over saturation of targets if a full court press into the solar system. something will get through. Of course that could be a diversion while a team of Yuuzhan Vong in a coral ship plant a dovin basal on earth surface to pull the moon from orbit to collide into earth. Since Tyranids are hard to detect untill its to late and the Vong has the same bio concept I see them being hard to detect and getting away with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That was IoM vs Earth.
Jihadin wrote:well...first one by trusting in the force and when to apply the 5lbs trigger squeeze to launch a photon torpedo. 2nd one was design flaw. If planning the defense of the 2nd DeathStar I and the rest you all would not leave tunnels with a straight shot into the core undefended or open. As far advance as GE I'm sure they make small enough to get into a tie fighter. Over saturation of targets if a full court press into the solar system. something will get through. Of course that could be a diversion while a team of Yuuzhan Vong in a coral ship plant a dovin basal on earth surface to pull the moon from orbit to collide into earth. Since Tyranids are hard to detect untill its to late and the Vong has the same bio concept I see them being hard to detect and getting away with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That was IoM vs Earth.
The entire debate is based around the IoM versus the GE, the Vong aren't part of this. If the GE get the Vong, then we add the Chaos Gods or the Necrons to the equation and giggle. And no, "something" isn't going to get through, Terra is unbelieveably well-defended.
Anything can get through a defense. Hell we had insurgents penetrate the wire into our FoB's in Afghanistan a few times. It doesn't have to be the Vong piloting the coral ship just some Imperial "volunteers" doing it with a instruction book to operate the basal. Just cause the books say the solar system is heavily defended and think all approaches are covered doesn't mean someone can think outside the box to penetrate the defense grid. Bet you Wedge Antilles and Wraith Sqaudron can do it
every ship that enters the system is boarded multiple times and is scanned both psychically and physically. a psychic scan is going to pick up the Vong signiture, namely because they don't have psykers and as such can't have any defense. any abnormalities will result in a swift end.
just cause some Insurgents can penetrate the wire in a modern conflict doesn't mean you can do this. its not even close in comparison.
If we are just grabbing things out of the SW universe to blow up Terra with, I'll take the Sun Crusher, please.
I don't even need to be in your Segmentum to blow up your local star, and the incoming missile is untouchable until it drops out of hyperspace nearly on top of its target.
The Chaos Cult that Ragnar Blackmane found that was operating for awhile went undetected on Earth? Whats the actual number of capital ships defending the system? Fighter aircraft? The number of battlestations? (Are they stationary?) defense platforms? Are you thinking an attack horizontal with the solar system? Why not vertical? Highly doubt the GE would go in with no intell on system defense. If they do it would be at the weakest point. If Thrawn lead the attack would you think he might actually pull it off? Reinforcement takes time to get there. Lets go with whats actually there. Problem though is no one knows the actual placement of fleets, battlestations, defense platforms and other defense points in the solar system. Lets not include ground force lol the idea is getting a nukes in. As for not knowing where to drop it well....be a glaze attempt
Jihadin wrote:well...first one by trusting in the force and when to apply the 5lbs trigger squeeze to launch a photon torpedo. 2nd one was design flaw. If planning the defense of the 2nd DeathStar I and the rest you all would not leave tunnels with a straight shot into the core undefended or open. As far advance as GE I'm sure they make small enough to get into a tie fighter. Over saturation of targets if a full court press into the solar system. something will get through. Of course that could be a diversion while a team of Yuuzhan Vong in a coral ship plant a dovin basal on earth surface to pull the moon from orbit to collide into earth. Since Tyranids are hard to detect untill its to late and the Vong has the same bio concept I see them being hard to detect and getting away with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That was IoM vs Earth.
The entire debate is based around the IoM versus the GE, the Vong aren't part of this. If the GE get the Vong, then we add the Chaos Gods or the Necrons to the equation and giggle. And no, "something" isn't going to get through, Terra is unbelieveably well-defended.
QFT, if you add other SW factions, then you should be able to add other 40k factions, then we know what would happen.
Jihadin wrote:The Chaos Cult that Ragnar Blackmane found that was operating for awhile went undetected on Earth? Whats the actual number of capital ships defending the system? Fighter aircraft? The number of battlestations? (Are they stationary?) defense platforms? Are you thinking an attack horizontal with the solar system? Why not vertical? Highly doubt the GE would go in with no intell on system defense. If they do it would be at the weakest point. If Thrawn lead the attack would you think he might actually pull it off? Reinforcement takes time to get there. Lets go with whats actually there. Problem though is no one knows the actual placement of fleets, battlestations, defense platforms and other defense points in the solar system. Lets not include ground force lol the idea is getting a nukes in. As for not knowing where to drop it well....be a glaze attempt
The defenses are in all directions, not just a horizontal plane. and yes the orbital platforms can move.
Chaos Cults are slightly different, they can get in simply by one individual giving into dispair and then the chaos gods offer him power. they basically start on their own, some cults may have existed in the underbelly of the Planet City since the Heresy.
Humans trying to sabotage the system could get to Terra, but they wouldn't be able to smuggle equipment in. they would have to start from scratch with what they could find.
And why are Nukes the supposed weapon of choice here? Radiation is hardly the worst thing you can throw at the IoM. You can be sure that there are massive safety measures to defend against radiation.
Attacking Terra is attacking the stronghold of a mighty god. the Emperor does mostly keep daemons from entering realspace, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do anything. he is quite capable of effecting the material realm. Heck, he might allow daemons to board GE ships attacking Terra.
Grey Templar wrote:
Attacking Terra is attacking the stronghold of a mighty god. the Emperor does mostly keep daemons from entering realspace, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do anything. he is quite capable of effecting the material realm. Heck, he might allow daemons to board GE ships attacking Terra.
Grey Templar wrote:
Attacking Terra is attacking the stronghold of a mighty god. the Emperor does mostly keep daemons from entering realspace, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do anything. he is quite capable of effecting the material realm. Heck, he might allow daemons to board GE ships attacking Terra.
He can do that? Since when?
Since he got plugged in.
What the Emperor does sitting up on the Golden Throne is hold the daemons back so they can't enter the physical universe at will. they have to enter through the body of a psyker or a warp rift and even then its a difficult transition.
Now the Emperor could decide to loosen his hold in specific spots, and those spots could just happen to be inside the GE ships attacking Terra. As a result the daemons eat the GE crew, the IoM can then come back later and blast the hulks to clean the daemonic taint.
course..probaly just at that crucial moment...someone trips over the power cord that leads to the golden throne....murphy's law....GE doesn't have geller fields so I can see it happening. guess getting a nuke to earth is out the window......give me a minute to think of another attempt
Automatically Appended Next Post: propaganda. I try propaganda just to get the IoM population to rebel.
Grey Templar wrote:
Attacking Terra is attacking the stronghold of a mighty god. the Emperor does mostly keep daemons from entering realspace, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do anything. he is quite capable of effecting the material realm. Heck, he might allow daemons to board GE ships attacking Terra.
He can do that? Since when?
Since he got plugged in.
What the Emperor does sitting up on the Golden Throne is hold the daemons back so they can't enter the physical universe at will. they have to enter through the body of a psyker or a warp rift and even then its a difficult transition.
Now the Emperor could decide to loosen his hold in specific spots, and those spots could just happen to be inside the GE ships attacking Terra. As a result the daemons eat the GE crew, the IoM can then come back later and blast the hulks to clean the daemonic taint.
That's imperial propaganda. The only thing we can say for sure is that the carriongod somehow keeps his failed (thanks to Magnus) webway portal shut. While this is most certainly an impressive feat it is by no means a singular one. There have been documented cases of Eldar Farseers doing the same/ permanently sealing a webway portal.
The problem with the GE vs IoM argument is that we have some ideas about the general powerlevels of GE ships ( http://stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html ) but very little about those of imperial ships.
If we assume that both have a comparable amount of firepower ( which i honestly doubt, after all why develop exterminatus class weaponry when a single frigate is enough to perform a base delta zero/exterminatus equivalent? ) then the imperium has an advantage.
It all comes down to which side has what and what amount is each side is willing to commit to presecute a war on each other. IoM has quite a few fronts going on while GE has rebels to contend with. Is IoM willing to strip capital ships and assets from other fronts to prosecute a war with GE at once or lincoln log their way at GE. All depends on how much intelligence is gathered from opposing forces and how fast each side can react to them.
Grey Templar wrote:
Attacking Terra is attacking the stronghold of a mighty god. the Emperor does mostly keep daemons from entering realspace, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do anything. he is quite capable of effecting the material realm. Heck, he might allow daemons to board GE ships attacking Terra.
He can do that? Since when?
Since he got plugged in.
What the Emperor does sitting up on the Golden Throne is hold the daemons back so they can't enter the physical universe at will. they have to enter through the body of a psyker or a warp rift and even then its a difficult transition.
Now the Emperor could decide to loosen his hold in specific spots, and those spots could just happen to be inside the GE ships attacking Terra. As a result the daemons eat the GE crew, the IoM can then come back later and blast the hulks to clean the daemonic taint.
That's imperial propaganda. The only thing we can say for sure is that the carriongod somehow keeps his failed (thanks to Magnus) webway portal shut. While this is most certainly an impressive feat it is by no means a singular one. There have been documented cases of Eldar Farseers doing the same/ permanently sealing a webway portal.
It's in the rulebook fluff, presented to us as the omniscient reader. I'd hardly call that "propaganda".
Like we didn't beat them in almst every other scifi thread......
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, but this just devolves into SW vs everything 40k. and 40k has Chaos.
Chaos is bigger then any silly Suncrusher.
This. Even if we count SW vs. 40k. Star Wars don't have anything that can counter Chaos and we all know that magic>>>>>technology. And + Star Wars primary race are Humans, who say they are not corruptible?
Grey Templar wrote:The Ad mech could design a computer Virus to take them down if it really can to it
Computer virus? Really? Considering that the Ad Mech's idea of maintenance can basically be summed up by "annointing the machine spirit with sacred ungents while chanting the litany of restoration"... surely you jest! Against a droid army the Ad Mech would light sacred insense and then sit in a circle singing Kum By Ya while sliently weeping that the machine spirit has forsaken them.
Grey Templar wrote:The Ad mech could design a computer Virus to take them down if it really can to it
Computer virus? Really? Considering that the Ad Mech's idea of maintenance can basically be summed up by "annointing the machine spirit with sacred ungents while chanting the litany of restoration"... surely you jest! Against a droid army the Ad Mech would light sacred insense and then sit in a circle singing Kum By Ya while sliently weeping that the machine spirit has forsaken them.
No actually. They would see the use of droids as heresy, and begin a crusade to destroy every last one of them. Any form of advanced AI is considered heretical by the IoM. Think the society in Dune, but only slightly more tolerant.
McNinja wrote:I doubt a squad of ten Jedi would have much trouble defeating hundreds of Guardsmen, or even Space Marines.
My friend, you are off your rocker
No-name mook Jedi are total garbage. Multiple "squads" of Jedi experienced great difficulty against a bunch of Mandalorians. Four Jedi were defeated by an unarmed, outnumbered Jango Fett...
(I do recall there being lightsaber proof armor, which would probably equate to power-sword-proof armor).
That's a big assumption...
Lightsabres are heat-based, burning through stuff. Power weapon fields "disrupt matter". Not quite the same.
Also, the basic soldier weapons of the SW universe are a heck of a lot more powerful than the weapons of the Imperial Guards lasgun.
Are you comparing SW blasters to 40K lasguns. If you are, I fail to see how blasters are so much more powerful then lasguns...BTW, I'm going by the SW movies.
Anytime someone starts to w@nk Jedi, I point to this:
if you watch from 1:10, the Jedi is Ki Adi Mundi (a Jedi council member)...he's only able to a block a few rapid-fire blaster shots before the clone troopers mow him down
I would like to interject that from my readings of Star Wars fluff nearly every type of projectile weapon (barring Verpine shatter weapons which are basically hand-held railguns) are practically looked down upon as primitive because they are just so *not* effective against shields... Yes the Imperium has trillions of men and 1 tank to every 100 men makes billions of tanks, but if the meager Rebel Alliance on some backwater planet with a single generator can shield an entire planet so well that the Empire had no weapons to pierce it even though they could camp outside and blast it for months with the entire fleet, I think that the Empire may be able to hold out if nothing else against the Imperium. Yes the Imperium has laser and plasma technology and I do love it so, but when a lascannons are rather few and far in between except on some vehicles and the occasional heavy weapons squad and plasma weapons have a 16.3% or so chance of vaporizing the user while the Empire fields 65+ massive turbolasers able to individually level a city block (or somewhere around there) on a ship only 1.6 klom long with individualized deflector shielding... And don't forget that AT-ATs had armor "too strong for blasters" which are quite the equivalent of lascannons and ground forces such as that... I'm not sure how lasguns would compare to blasters, they are probably better, but oh well. And superweapon-wise the Empire had plenty of superweapons. The Death Star was a failure in technological design but take a look at the Sun Crusher. Armor that wouldn't get scratched by plowing straight through a Star Destroyer, torpedoes which can cause suns to SUPERNOVA and destroy entire systems, and not to mention it got literally thrown into a sun and pulled back out weeks to months later and was able to be used perfectly right off the bat...
In extended warfare I'd say it'd be pretty dang close. The Empire (in my eyes) has a good edge due to superior tech (yes they have superior tech otherwise the Imperium wouldn't be using ballistics anymore. Deal with it) but the Imperium's sheer size... I shudder to think of the space battles (in a good way)
And yet the tiny Stardestroyer seems to have comparable or even more firepower than the much larger battleship.
The history has shown that super-heavy ships are not as effective as lots of small ones (remember two German Bismarck-class battleships which sunk in the WWII). And in the case of spaceships, it'll be much easier and less costly to construct ships of the proper size - how large and powerful should be the engines carrying Warhammer starships? And why do Imperials decorate their ships as cathedrals - they simply spend resources on that. What do you think about of the amount of stone or metal spent on that grimdark Gothic angel at the top of that ship?
I like both SW and WH40k but I think that SW Star Destroyer is more proper for space battles than WH40k Imperial starships.
And yet the tiny Stardestroyer seems to have comparable or even more firepower than the much larger battleship.
The history has shown that super-heavy ships are not as effective as lots of small ones (remember two German Bismarck-class battleships which sunk in the WWII). And in the case of spaceships, it'll be much easier and less costly to construct ships of the proper size - how large and powerful should be the engines carrying Warhammer starships? And why do Imperials decorate their ships as cathedrals - they simply spend resources on that. What do you think about of the amount of stone or metal spent on that grimdark Gothic angel at the top of that ship?
I like both SW and WH40k but I think that SW Star Destroyer is more proper for space battles than WH40k Imperial starships.
Considering that many Imperial Ships have been in service for thousands of years, your view appears to be false.
Don't mistake the size and power of Imperial ships for them lacking numbers. A Cobra escort(same size as an ISD) can be constructed in a day at the proper facilties(Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Port Maw, any Forge World with a shipyard)
Cruisers and Battleships are rarer, but they are hardly uncommon. Gothic Class cruisers are present nearly everywhere.
Star Destroyers arn't exactly coming out of the GE's ears either.
Grey Templar wrote:Now the Emperor could decide to loosen his hold in specific spots, and those spots could just happen to be inside the GE ships attacking Terra. As a result the daemons eat the GE crew, the IoM can then come back later and blast the hulks to clean the daemonic taint.
I'll back 40K over SW any day of the week, but your argument relies too much on speculation
why hasn't the Emperor "loosened his hold on specific spots" against the Tyranids, Tau, Orks, etc.
I don't think tactics that have never been seen in the fluff before should be brought up in a vs. thread
Imperium of man would absolutely stomp the Galactic empire. No ifs and no buts. Id like to see a lightsaber stop a bolter round. HA take that, werent expecting exploding bullets now were you?
And im not even a Star wars hater, I like the series. So I dont think im particularly biased.
IoM 50-75 ships assigned to a sector, 200 sectors in the Imperium 65 as an average 13000 up to several squadrons of frigates/destroyers assigned to a fleet
cobra class is a torpedo boat
Grand Crusier 5KM
Chapter fllets are assorted sizes
GE
24 Star Destroyers, up 2,400 ships Sector fleet
Way to many sectors
Peaked over 25K Imperial Class Star Destroyer
Super Star Destroyers were 3.8 KM estimated like 800 were bult of assorted classes
well..tried to make the attempt on the actual size of both navy's. I had to stop since it wasn't really making sense for either side
The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.
Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.
Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.
Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.
Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.
The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.
Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.
We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.
So. My take on this is:
The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.
OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.
So what I gathered from that discussion is that High-end 40k calcs(most powerful/uber level) puts them at the point where a single Cruiser could take the Death Stat out, and low end calcs put Star Wars ISDs pretty much even with an IoM cruiser, possably a slight advantage.
also that 40k ships tend to move through space at .57c(where c = speed of light)
Depends. Pre- the Imperium's 3 Blackstone Fortresses being destroyed/self-destructing, definitely the Imperium. After that, likely still the Imperium, but a closer fight.
We've had this conversation before, I would suggest finding the previous thread on it.
Is that even canon? And even then, I'm calling BS.
If they were really that powerful...how did they get slaughtered? No really, why didn't they just force push the Clone Troopers away against the walls when they turned traitor?
If they are powerful enough to pull a friggen starship out of orbit then they should be able to take out a bunch of foot soldiers without any difficulty.
Because they weren't expecting it, even jedi have to sleep/take a dump sometimes
Also, if it's Old republic era, Star Wars; GE era, IOM
Also battles may be won by landslides depending on who's commanding which army. Lord Creed can make a Titan pop out from behind a street light but Grand Admiral Thrawn can tell exactly what species is commanding a ship and which tactic to use against them and when simply by comparing methods of the enemy to various art forms... Tactical Genius battle of the century right there.
keezus wrote:The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.
Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.
Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.
Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.
Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.
The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.
Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.
We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.
So. My take on this is:
The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.
OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.
I agree with you as bigger often isn't better at war (real-world wars have proven that). Given that the resources of IoM worlds are limited, they should build smaller but more efficient ships. Even if they would be as comfortable as submarine, the Imperials would spend less resources and be able to construct more ships. I doubt that other races except Orks have such goofy ships as the IoM does.
But I have an addition to your thoughts. Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
I will understand that if this is a missionary ship constructed to look solemn and impressive, but what's with simple military ships? Should they be decorated as Gothic cathedrals and why?
Grey Templar wrote:So what I gathered from that discussion is that High-end 40k calcs(most powerful/uber level) puts them at the point where a single Cruiser could take the Death Stat out, and low end calcs put Star Wars ISDs pretty much even with an IoM cruiser, possably a slight advantage.
also that 40k ships tend to move through space at .57c(where c = speed of light)
Those calcs are highly suspect. The whole thing falls apart as soon as you pit 40k ships against their counterparts. Ignoring the implausibility that fusion reactors could generate so much power... it still makes no sense to have such a huge spread in weapon yields, considering that if the lower yield weapons are effective, higher yield ones are inefficient, and if the higher yield weapons are needed, the lower yield ones are ineffective.
keezus wrote:The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.
Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.
Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.
Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.
Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.
The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.
Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.
We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.
So. My take on this is:
The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.
OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.
I agree with you as bigger often isn't better at war (real-world wars have proven that). Given that the resources of IoM worlds are limited, they should build smaller but more efficient ships. Even if they would be as comfortable as submarine, the Imperials would spend less resources and be able to construct more ships. I doubt that other races except Orks have such goofy ships as the IoM does.
But I have an addition to your thoughts. Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
I will understand that if this is a missionary ship constructed to look solemn and impressive, but what's with simple military ships? Should they be decorated as Gothic cathedrals and why?
The ships themselves are ancient, venerable, and sacred. There are alot of ships that have been around since the Emperor walked amoung men, its natural they will decorate them.
The fact that they have survived for thousands of years suggests that their designs are sturdy, never assume that decadence = flimsy. a pretty ship can also be a deadly one.
And lets face it, the Imperium just likes to pimp everything out. Deadly Beauty.
I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Grey Templar wrote:Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
You almost make it sound like Warp travel is precise and reliable.
Grey Templar wrote:Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
You almost make it sound like Warp travel is precise and reliable.
Define "Precise" and "Reliable"
If by precise you mean "I can appear within 3,000 kilometers of my destination coordinates 85% of the time" then yeah, its precise.
If by reliable you mean "We only have a 10% chance of getting lost" then yeah, its reliable.
You seem to think that a huge % of all IoM warp jumps have something terrible go wrong. I am sure that the success percentage is in the 90s.
The chance of something happening goes up if you are operating in areas of warp trubulance, but why should we assume that it isn't calm in the theoretical area that this conflict is taking place?
Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.
Brother Coa wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.
And they also like all their ships, buildings and vehicles to be pimp-up with Emeperor's Gothic style things.
Grey Templar wrote:
Farseer Petriel wrote:
keezus wrote:The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.
Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.
Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.
Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.
Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.
The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.
Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.
We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.
So. My take on this is:
The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.
OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.
I agree with you as bigger often isn't better at war (real-world wars have proven that). Given that the resources of IoM worlds are limited, they should build smaller but more efficient ships. Even if they would be as comfortable as submarine, the Imperials would spend less resources and be able to construct more ships. I doubt that other races except Orks have such goofy ships as the IoM does.
But I have an addition to your thoughts. Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
I will understand that if this is a missionary ship constructed to look solemn and impressive, but what's with simple military ships? Should they be decorated as Gothic cathedrals and why?
The ships themselves are ancient, venerable, and sacred. There are alot of ships that have been around since the Emperor walked amoung men, its natural they will decorate them.
The fact that they have survived for thousands of years suggests that their designs are sturdy, never assume that decadence = flimsy. a pretty ship can also be a deadly one.
And lets face it, the Imperium just likes to pimp everything out. Deadly Beauty.
Psienesis wrote:
Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.
So you don't see any rational reasons to do that. I don't find them too.
P.S. Though many Middle-Eastern states are built upon the Muslim faith, they don't have tanks and ships looking like Arabian palaces and mosques - it would be impractical and ridiculous.
Grey Templar wrote:If by precise you mean "I can appear within 3,000 kilometers of my destination coordinates 85% of the time" then yeah, its precise.
If by reliable you mean "We only have a 10% chance of getting lost" then yeah, its reliable.
Reliable = Throwing 10 darts at a dart board and getting all of them on the board - not necessarily in the same spot, but they are all on the board.
Precise = Throwing 10 darts at a dart board and getting them all clustered in one spot - not necessarily even on the board, but they are all in one spot.
I concede that in 40k fluff, Warp travel could be considered "reliable". Precise, IMHO, not so much.
Warp travel is travelling outside the known universe through the immaterium and then popping back out somewhere else in space time. The reason why the IoM usually doesn't get lost is because they can latch onto the psychic beacon of the Astronomicon which continues to exist as a fixed point in the immaterium. Depending on distortions to the Astronomicon while in the immaterium, the exit point will be proportionally displaced in space/time. Considering that the distortions are completely random, due to the nature of the warp, your exit point will vary widely. Even if we assume that all distortions are minor and one appears in a 3000km radius of the intended location, +/-5 minutes... at 0.1c sublight speeds, that still puts over 8 million km between you and your intended foe.
If the Astronomicon signal is lost, then the ships have a very high chance of never returning to our material plane. Ergo, unless one assumes that the Astronomicon reaches "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... While it might be argued that it reaches a galaxy far, far away (since the psychic signature of the Great Devourer can be detected in our galaxy), it is unlikely that it reaches "long ago" from the "grim darkness of the far future", considering that the Imperium didn't use the present system of warp travel until the Astronomicon was put into place - I can only conclude that in this context, Warp travel can not be considered reliable in the least.
The Astronomican doesn't even cover the entire Milky Way. There are regions to the far eastern fringe of the Segmentum Ultima and the galactic north-east that are "outside the light of the Emperor", and Navigators have to rely on local fixed points and guess-work in order to safely navigate the Warp.
Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
On the subject of IoM ships being decorated all pretty like. Do recall that warp travel sucks, and almost all IoM ships are built with gargoyles and/or religious iconography to ward of daemonic incursions while traveling. The theory is they scare the daemons away, this is in addition to the Geller Field of course.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.
Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.
Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.
Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.
Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.
And what is this? Is it a specialized weapon, or when a bunch of ships target a planet?
You guys are taking this way too seriously. In a straight up fight, the ridiculous numbers that the IoM puts up pretty much equals curb-stomp. I just like pulling the IoM numbers apart, since they make no sense even within the context of 40k.
This might help you guys out with respect to warp travel. Work outside the normal warp chanels, and outside the Astronomicon, and you're inviting issues. Seems to have limitations regarding dropping directly into systems as well.
Regarding the forces of Chaos, considering that for them, it is like travelling inside your own house, I doubt that they'd have any issues.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.
Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.
Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.
AFAIK, the Empire didn't have the ability to destroy an entire planet before the Deathstar was created(Han Solo: New Hope)
They could wipe a planet's population out, but not destroy the planet.
The Imperium can actually destroy a planet with a couple of well placed Clyclonic Torpedos, Torpedos that can be launched from just about any ship the Imperium has. Same goes for Virus bombs. All thats required is the Authorization to use said weaponry.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.
Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.
Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.
AFAIK, the Empire didn't have the ability to destroy an entire planet before the Deathstar was created(Han Solo: New Hope)
They could wipe a planet's population out, but not destroy the planet.
The Imperium can actually destroy a planet with a couple of well placed Clyclonic Torpedos, Torpedos that can be launched from just about any ship the Imperium has. Same goes for Virus bombs. All thats required is the Authorization to use said weaponry.
Wait...they can actually destroy planets? Like, into little chunks? I thought they just made it inhospitable and volcanic, like in DoW2 retribution.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.
Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.
Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.
AFAIK, the Empire didn't have the ability to destroy an entire planet before the Deathstar was created(Han Solo: New Hope)
They could wipe a planet's population out, but not destroy the planet.
The Imperium can actually destroy a planet with a couple of well placed Clyclonic Torpedos, Torpedos that can be launched from just about any ship the Imperium has. Same goes for Virus bombs. All thats required is the Authorization to use said weaponry.
Wait...they can actually destroy planets? Like, into little chunks? I thought they just made it inhospitable and volcanic, like in DoW2 retribution.
You see there are several levels of Exterminatus.
General flow of Exterminatus is as follows.
1) Preliminary Bombardment with conventional weapons to destroy particular hardpoints like underground bunkers and other potential escape routes.
2) Dropping of Virus Bombs. Virus eats away all living matter, causing it to rapidly decompose.
3) Lance Strike to ignite the gas released from the decayed life(Life Eater Virus basically causes a rapid decomposition of living material) which causes a planet wide firestorm which will also blow the atmosphere away.
Then we have an optional 4th step.
4) Fire Clyclonic Torpedos. These Torpedos burrow deep into the crust of the planet, setting off massive melta charges that cause the planet to experience massive teutonic destablization. the destabilization causes the planet to wrench itself apart into an asteroid field. The planet's molten core(if any) will slowly dissapate and cool in the vaccum of space.
Clyclonic Torpedos are usually only used to destroy Necron Tomb Worlds, even a lifeless husk of rock can still be potentially useful.
Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?
And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.
And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.
Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.
Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)
And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.
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KingDeath wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.
its going to be a horrible horrible mess.
Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)
Shock and Awe FTW!!!
Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.
There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.
Here's another LOLWUT moment brought to you by 40k.
Novacannon calculated yield from Spacebattles.com: 661 teraton.
Torpedo stated yield: 600 gigaton.
Batteries caculated yield: Low teraton range - we'll go with 10x torpedo power per battery.
Cyclonic Torpedo caculated yield: Planetbusting (shatter): 46 petatons (using handy: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Asteroids.html)
Described fact: Cyclonic Torpedos can destroy a planet. (Used Earth's radius in above)
Stated fact (BFG rulebook and otherwise): Shields don't stop torpedoes.
Stated fact (BFG rulebook and otherwise): Torpedoes can kill capital ships.
Calculated fact: Novacannon is reduced by void shields.
Stated fact (BFG rulebook and otherwise): Weapons batteries can kill capital ships AND are reduced by void shields.
These can't all be true. The novacannon is 1000x more powerful than torpedoes, and 100x more powerful than batteries. If cumulative torpedoes are enough to kill a capital ship, then the shields must be sufficient to block at least 99% of the damage, meaning that battery firepower should be entirely soaked.
Even more baffling, an Ork Rok 20km across can only sustain around 40 gigatons in damage, and that's assuming the entire thing is made of solid nickel-iron. These things are known to survive the IoM's orbital defense batteries, which are supposed to repel enemy ships - Ork Fields are non starters, as they ignored by torps and a single torpedo would one shot the damned thing, yet somehow Orks are considered competitive against the Imperium - and Ork Roks are KNOWN to land on planets, even considered the most fortified... such as Armageddon and Cadia. They would have to have some sort of "structural enhancement field" which increases their durability by 100-1000x for this to make sense.
Cyclonic torpedos ignore shields as well - if these things are readily available, you'd think that the IoM would have curb-stomped everyone by now.
GW's fluff basically consists of each side having super weapons with power levels and effects described for juvenile "wow" factor, and plot armor as durable as necessary. There's an old Chinese proverb where there's a guy selling weapons and armor, advertising the weapons as being able to pierce any armor and the armor as being proof against every weapon. A clever customer asked him which would break first if he put his weapon against his armor... Either way, you're going to find one of the items not as advertised.
Clyclonic Torpedos are NOT used against space targets as a general rule, only the Necron World Engine was large enough to warrent their use.
We can't rely on GW's stated power yields because they have no clue how they are under-powering their weaponry. We must instead go off of the described results and toss the stated yields.
GE has way more ships then the Imperium. 200 sectors in the Imperium from what I found (think I'm wrong). Each sector is 50-75 capital ships along with a possible seven squadrons of fast attack ships. While GE sectors are over thousand (+84) with 24 ISD I/II with 2400 additional warships assigned to a sector.
2) We arn't given exact strengths for Imperial Battlefleets, only "typical" numbers. a Battlefleet near Cadia is going to be WAY larger then a Battlefleet stationed somewhere out in the boonies.
keezus wrote:
Regarding the forces of Chaos, considering that for them, it is like travelling inside your own house, I doubt that they'd have any issues.
Tell that to the Death Guard, Iron Warriors, and the Emperor's Children... it's more likely traveling in the mansion of horrors with your 4 drunk, PO'ed uncles coming off a bender while they're fighting over the same girl.
Grey Templar wrote:We can't rely on GW's stated power yields because they have no clue how they are under-powering their weaponry. We must instead go off of the described results and toss the stated yields.
Let me get this straight. The stated 600GT canon yield on torpedoes is under powered because the writers are wrong - The canon yield is already 10-100x more powerful than should be needed to one-shot an Ork Rok. Based on described results, all weapons should be orders of magnitudes weaker, unless they are called on by the storyline to destroy a planet etc.
Let's use your described results approach:
Novacannon shot = 661 Terraton - If we go by described results, this weapon is at least 100 000x more powerful than torpedoes, since Torps are now power limited due to described ship-to-ship actions vs inferior xenos technology (but are also effective vs. Imperial technology). Ergo, shields must be able to absorb almost all the blast.
661 Terraton = 2.5104x10^24 J
As shield output is considered to be constant output, we'll consider the void generators to be outputting this number continuously during combat operations, and we'll also assume that it's the pooled output of all void generators - in actual fact - the full amount would probably be at least 5x that amount.
The SUN has a per second output of 3.86×10^26 J/s. So, that means the ship's plasma reactor is putting out 1% the sun's output for shields alone. GW uses Plasma and Fusion interchangably.
The SUN is a fusion reactor.
40k's power levels don't become any less nonsensical even if you go only by described results. You are just moving the goal posts around by disallowing print material just because it seems to contradict your POV. At least with the stated 600GT torpedo yield (which actually HELPS your arguement), you have a basis on which to structure everything else around.
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Lobukia wrote:
keezus wrote:
Regarding the forces of Chaos, considering that for them, it is like travelling inside your own house, I doubt that they'd have any issues.
Tell that to the Death Guard, Iron Warriors, and the Emperor's Children... it's more likely traveling in the mansion of horrors with your 4 drunk, PO'ed uncles coming off a bender while they're fighting over the same girl.
Well... I didn't say that the house was a safe place to be. Only that it affords some familiarity, meaning that they are less likely to get lost.
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Close Shut the Jaws of Oblivion 
Also...to the 
