Saw this on another forum and thought I would bring it up here and see what you guys think.

I find this totally out of the spirit of the game but what would you say to someone trying to pull this? I read the BRB and couldn't find anything saying that it was Illegal.

SO say I have a unit with an IC who is jump infantry inside foot slogging unit, for an example:

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack
5 x Assault Termies w/ lightning Claws.

Now I look at the board and see that I am just outside the 12" (move + assault) range that these terminators would be able to make, it looks more like 13" maybe 14".

So I take my jump pack Sanguinary Priest and leave the unit moving him forward 8", I then proceed to move my Assault Termies up 6".

Now by the BRB this Sanguinary Priest is able to rejoin this assault termie unit due to being within 2" (as far as I can tell).

The unit now proceeds to Assault the unit that before was previously out of range but is now in range due to the 8" move of the Independent Character.


Also what If this is done from a less shady perspective, Say that the Sanguinary Priest was in a different unit from the Terminators. He moves out of the other unit, placed himself roughly 6 inches away, then had the previously out of assault range unit move up to him, they join as a unit, then Assault.

I know it likely that some of the models wouldn't get to attack in the assault phase as they would struggle to make it within that 2" off the model in base to base, but when attacking the right unit that would hardly matter. It may even be an advantage as you will be unlikely to kill them in your turn and then avoid the shooting phase before finishing them off in the opponents turn.

vossyvo wrote:Saw this on another forum and thought I would bring it up here and see what you guys think.

I find this totally out of the spirit of the game but what would you say to someone trying to pull this? I read the BRB and couldn't find anything saying that it was Illegal.

SO say I have a unit with an IC who is jump infantry inside foot slogging unit, for an example:

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack
5 x Assault Termies w/ lightning Claws.

Now I look at the board and see that I am just outside the 12" (move + assault) range that these terminators would be able to make, it looks more like 13" maybe 14".

So I take my jump pack Sanguinary Priest and leave the unit moving him forward 8", I then proceed to move my Assault Termies up 6".

Now by the BRB this Sanguinary Priest is able to rejoin this assault termie unit due to being within 2" (as far as I can tell).

The unit now proceeds to Assault the unit that before was previously out of range but is now in range due to the 8" move of the Independent Character.

Also what If this is done from a less shady perspective, Say that the Sanguinary Priest was in a different unit from the Terminators. He moves out of the other unit, placed himself roughly 6 inches away, then had the previously out of assault range unit move up to him, they join as a unit, then Assault.

I know it likely that some of the models wouldn't get to attack in the assault phase as they would struggle to make it within that 2" off the model in base to base, but when attacking the right unit that would hardly matter. It may even be an advantage as you will be unlikely to kill them in your turn and then avoid the shooting phase before finishing them off in the opponents turn.

This won't work, because an IC only joins a unit when HE moves into coherency, not when the unit does. So you have to move the unit, then jump the IC over them into cohesion, and charge range.

Remember that an IC can only move the speed of the slowest member of a combined unit, so you have to keep the IC more than 2 inches away from the terminators, before you make your jump move.

This is not an easy maneuver to pull off, but it is valid. Spacecurves over at BOLS uses it and he's one of the top players in the country, from what I understand.

Wait a moment.

I thought that if an IC w/ a jump pack starts in an infantry unit he can only move 6" due to the fact that an IC is considered to have left the unit until the end of the movement phase, and, as such, must move the speed of the slowest model.

KGatch113 wrote:This won't work, because an IC only joins a unit when HE moves into coherency, not when the unit does.

I know for certain that this is wrong. An IC is attached to a unit if a unit is within 2" of him at the end of the movement phase.

Yeah, it does work. But it's not easy to pull off

1) IC is not in the unit, but on his own or with another unit.
2) Move Terminators their normal 6"
3) Jump IC from his previous position to with 2" of the termies, in front of them by 2". Thus joining the unit
4) Assault with IC and Unit in tow

I'm not 100% sure how to actually rule this, just getting the relevant quotes here so people don't rely so much on memory.

BRB page 48

"In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase." .... "Note that after a character joins a unit, that unit may move no further that Movement phase."

Here GW has used definition "their Movement phase" in quite mixed way. I'm pretty sure rules define that only players have movement phases, not models. But if they meant player movement phase, the ending of the same paragraph would be meaningless, as IC could only join an unit at the end of the player Movement phase and thus such unit couldn't move anyway.

So the intention seems to be that IC joining the unit is done immediately after IC's movement has been finished.

BRB page 48

* While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.
* An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.

As far as moving over 6", it could be argued both ways, but I'd say that IC can move out full speed as he ceases to be member of the combined unit the moment he leaves coherency distance (assuming he can get out of coherency with 6" move). IC has to move first though.

vossyvo wrote:SO say I have a unit with an IC who is jump infantry inside foot slogging unit, for an example:

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack
5 x Assault Termies w/ lightning Claws.

Because the Priest is already attached, you cannot use his jump move - he has to move the 6" ground movement. Because of this, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

I thought I covered all this in my post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hellstorm wrote:Wait a moment.

I thought that if an IC w/ a jump pack starts in an infantry unit he can only move 6" due to the fact that an IC is considered to have left the unit until the end of the movement phase, and, as such, must move the speed of the slowest model.

KGatch113 wrote:This won't work, because an IC only joins a unit when HE moves into coherency, not when the unit does.

I know for certain that this is wrong. An IC is attached to a unit if a unit is within 2" of him at the end of the movement phase.

Wrong. Someone else already posted the correct rule.

Question since an IC fights by himself in assault, wouldn't the termies not be able to attack in that assault round anyway, since none of them can get to b2b or within 2" of a model in their unit that is b2b?

a) Defenders react, and
b) only when "resolving attacks" is an IC a separate unit

rigeld2 wrote:Because the Priest is already attached, you cannot use his jump move - he has to move the 6" ground movement. Because of this, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

I think you are missing his point.

Rules in question, which while shady seem fairly legitimate:

1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.
2. If an IC ends the movement phase within 2" of a unit, he has joined that unit.

Arugment being that IC leaves his movement to use his jump pack. Follow on unit moves its regular movement, ending within 2" of the IC. IC now rejoins the unit. Again, while it ,may violate the spirit of the rule, it seems completely legal.

Green is Best! wrote:
1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.

No, he may not. Until the movement phase is over, the IC is part of the unit, and must therefore move at the speed of the slowest model. The IC can move out of coherency, but he still can only move 6" as he is restricted by the rest of the unit.

Wasn't this off of Stelek's blog where he was talking about his wonderfully clever, if awfully rules ambiguous, slingshotting strategy?

Green is Best! wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Because the Priest is already attached, you cannot use his jump move - he has to move the 6" ground movement. Because of this, the rest of your post is irrelevant.

1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.

Citation needed. You started movement joined to the unit. Since you're joined to the unit, you move as fast as the slowest model. Even breaking coherency you don't leave the unit until after you and the unit have moved (because coherency isn't determined until after you move all the models in the unit).
You're restricted to a 6" move.

lledwey wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:
1. An IC may leave a unit and use his normal movement.

No, he may not. Until the movement phase is over, the IC is part of the unit, and must therefore move at the speed of the slowest model. The IC can move out of coherency, but he still can only move 6" as he is restricted by the rest of the unit.

lledwey is 100% correct; The IC may leave a unit by moving away, and if 1 model in the unit moves, the whole unit counts as moving, and units all move together, and units all move at the speed of the slowest model. Lets say you have a Chaplain with a jump pack, Attached to a tac squad with a Missile launcher, and the chaplain wishes to move away; the Chaplain has to move only 6" as the tac squad only has a 6" move, furthermore the Missile launcher cannot fire because a model in the unit moved. On the flip side the Chaplain can move to join the unit from up to 14" away(if he was not attached to another squad), and the tac squad can have remained stationary and still fire the missile launcher because that is specified in the IC rules. On the other flip side(this is clearly a 3-sided coin); a Chapter master(or Conversion Beamer equipped Master of the Forge) standing still and then joined by a tac squad walking up to within 2" of him cannot fire his Orbital bombardment(or conversion beamer) as the whole unit counts as having moved.

The tactic does work for an unattached JP-IC bouncing from behind though.

When an IC with a jump pack leaves a unit, he moves at his movement rate. The unit he left does not count as moving. However, when an IC joins a unit, that unit is done moving and counts as having moved.

The tactic sounds legitimate.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
lledwey is 100% correct; The IC may leave a unit by moving away, and if 1 model in the unit moves, the whole unit counts as moving, and units all move together, and units all move at the speed of the slowest model. Lets say you have a Chaplain with a jump pack, Attached to a tac squad with a Missile launcher, and the chaplain wishes to move away; the Chaplain has to move only 6" as the tac squad only has a 6" move, furthermore the Missile launcher cannot fire because a model in the unit moved. On the flip side the Chaplain can move to join the unit from up to 14" away(if he was not attached to another squad), and the tac squad can have remained stationary and still fire the missile launcher because that is specified in the IC rules. On the other flip side(this is clearly a 3-sided coin); a Chapter master(or Conversion Beamer equipped Master of the Forge) standing still and then joined by a tac squad walking up to within 2" of him cannot fire his Orbital bombardment(or conversion beamer) as the whole unit counts as having moved.

The tactic does work for an unattached JP-IC bouncing from behind though.

The above is not 100% correct.

If an IC joins or moves away from a unit the unit does not count as having moved.
"If an IC moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the IC Counts as having moved in the ensuing shooting phase, but the unit does not." P.48

So in the underlined situation above, the Missile launcher can fire as the unit does not count as having moved.

As for the bold, I can not find rules one way or the other, but there is no reason to treat this any differently than an IC moving and the unit not moving.

In that case where the unit moves into coherency and the IC stands still The rules about the IC moving and the unit counting as stationary would be a fair way to play it.

Also, the Chaplain with a Jump pack can move away from the unit using the Jump pack to move 12"
"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

So the IC can use his Jump Pack as long as the unit does not "stay together" because they only move "at the speed of the slowest model while the stay together"

As for the OP, the move extension is not legal, since the IC started with the unit and did not leave the unit he has to move at the speed of the slowest model, and therefore can only move 6"

As Kel said: If the IC was not attached to that squad, you could use that tactic and it is legal.

yep missed the "or leaves" somehow; so the Tac squad can fire the missile launcher; but the Conversion Beamer/ Orbital bombardment still cannot be fired(as there is no specific rules changing the base).

DeathReaper wrote:As for the OP, the move extension is not legal, since the IC started with the unit and did not leave the unit he has to move at the speed of the slowest model, and therefore can only move 6"

Right, but I thought that the whole premise of this move was that the IC is leaving the unit to move on his own. The original unit follows, ending up 2" away from the IC. Since the IC is now 2" away from a unit, he is considered (re) joined to that unit. Again, shady, but it does sound like it follows the rules in order to circumvent the rules.

I think everyone is in agreement this tactic would work if the IC started out not attached to this unit (i.e. jumps 12" from somwhere else and lands 2" in front of other unit, joins, and then "pulls" other unit into assault). The big question is can the IC leave a unit and re-join that same unit in the same movement phase?

On a different note, it was said that an IC can join or leave a unit, the unit counts as not moving in the shooting phase (provided it did not move). What about the opposite?
If I have a Big Mek with a SAG and a unit joins, can he still fire? (I thought it was no in this case)
If I have same Big Mek and his attached unit leaves, can he still fire (I thought it was yes in this case).

There are not even any base rules that cover the Conversion Beamer/ Orbital bombardment situation.

The only rules we have that are even close are the rules about the IC joining a stationary unit where the stationary unit does not count as moving.

There are no rules covering it at all so using the IC rules for them joining a unit would be the best way to handle it.

Green is Best! wrote:Right, but I thought that the whole premise of this move was that the IC is leaving the unit to move on his own. The original unit follows, ending up 2" away from the IC. Since the IC is now 2" away from a unit, he is considered (re) joined to that unit. Again, shady, but it does sound like it follows the rules in order to circumvent the rules.

The IC can not remain with the unit if he leaves the unit and uses his Jump Pack movement.

"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If they stay together you have to move at the speed of the slowest model.

Yep. 2 problems with it

The IC would have to move and leave the unit - but you only check coherency at the end of the movement phase. So you havent left until the end and are thus restricted to the slowest speed

Second the unit would be trying to join the IC - when the IC has to join the unit.

You are only restricted " at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If you are leaving the unit you can move at whatever speed you are capable of since you are not staying together.

Since you don't discover whether an IC left the unit until after the movement phase you can't "leave" and "join" the same unit in the same phase. The IC is still with the same unit that he was with at the start of the movement phase so he never "left it" in the first place. As such he would be limited to the speed of the slowest member of the unit.
I can see you jumping to avoid a hazardous terrain test for the IC vis a vis the rest of the unit but he would still be limited in terms of distance travelled.

DeathReaper wrote:You are only restricted " at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If you are leaving the unit you can move at whatever speed you are capable of since you are not staying together.

If you're leaving the unit, you can't be in coherence at the end of movement.

That is what I said Rig.

if you are staying together you have to move at the speed of the slowest model, if not the IC with a Jump Pack or Bike can move whatever speed he wants.

Right, so you and nos are in agreement. I misread that originally.

rigeld2 wrote:If you're leaving the unit, you can't be in coherence at the end of movement.

This is where I think the OP was trying to skirt the issue. This is not covered in the brb. It just says at the end of your movement phase, IC's within 2" of a unit are considered joined. If within 2" of multiple units, they must declare which unit they are in. (Or something to that effect). There is nothing saying whether you can or can not rejoin a unit you have left.

Common sense dictates that this is not allowed and I would consider this "shady" at best.

From a strict rules interpretation, if the IC leaves the unit, he can move as fast as the model is allowed. Next, the unit can move. If it, or any other unit, ends within 2" of the IC, they are considered joined. The check for joining a unit is done at the end of the movement phase. From a step by step perspective, this works.

Green is Best! wrote:From a strict rules interpretation, if the IC leaves the unit, he can move as fast as the model is allowed.

That's debatable, as has already been pointed out.

Next, the unit can move. If it, or any other unit, ends within 2" of the IC, they are considered joined.

If the unit finishes its movement within 2" of the IC, they never left in the first place, since the unit (which on that turn included the IC) all moves at the same time. Whether or not the IC is joined to the unit is determined after everyone has moved, not just when you're halfway through moving the unit.

For the IC to leave the unit, he has to be more than 2" away when the unit's movement is complete. So if you have determined that he has left the unit, you can not then go and move the unit... they've already had their movement, otherwise the IC couldn't have left.

you only have to move "at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

If you are not staying together you fall back on the normal movement rules.

Not sure where the debate is.

This was debated at the B&C after the whole Stelek blog issue. Frankly, Stelek is full of crap and most if not all of his leet strats are only understandable by him. If you disagree with him, it is because you do not have his superior gaming intellect, not because he is wrong or just a flat out cheater.

The entire sling-shotting tactic is based on the false premise that a unit can move to within 2" of an IC and therefore the IC is joined to the unit. However there are absolutely no rules for units joining an IC.

Now, people have tried to backdoor the actual rule by saying that the IC is moving so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their movement, however the wording and grammar of the actual rule do not allow for this attempted loophole.

When you read the rule, the present indicative of the word, "is", prohibits the IC from moving to a place on the board where he will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement. The present indicative use of the word "is" puts the burden on the IC to move within 2" to join a friendly unit. It does not give permission to the IC to move to a spot that will be within 2" of a friendly unit, it tells him that he has to move to a spot that he is within 2" of a friendly unit.

DeathReaper wrote:Not sure where the debate is.

The debate is simply that you don't determine the IC to have left the unit until after the unit's movement is completed... because that's when you check whether or not the IC is still in coherency.

If you have to bend the rules to win are you really winning? It can be done but should it be done?

Jwalker52 wrote:If you have to bend the rules to win are you really winning? It can be done but should it be done?

I don't see how this is bending the rules. You're either breaking them (if the jumping IC is in the assaulting squad), or you're using a perfectly legal tactic (if the IC is in a separate squad capable of moving 12" or if he is alone).

Cheating is one thing. Moving tactically is another. The ideal player would foresee such a tactic, and adjust his/her tactics accordingly. While we can't all be the ideal player (I'm certainly not), being aware of valid tactics and understanding when someone has outplayed oneself is an important part of any competitive game. Immediately crying that it's "bending the rules" or "cheesy tactics" is just refusing to adapt and improve.

Now, if a tactic is continuously wrecking your army regardless of all reasonable attempts to counter it, then perhaps there is an aspect of the tactic that unfairly disadvantages you, but I seriously doubt that between two equally skilled players, these sorts of assault shenanigans make a game-breaking difference.

/2cents

I am pretty much on the 'Slingshot isn't legal' side of the fence but something I have been noticing posted I want to see if I can get a clear understanding of what is being said, insaniak I am going to use something you posted as an example for what I am trying to say/ask.

insaniak wrote:For the IC to leave the unit, he has to be more than 2" away when the unit's movement is complete. So if you have determined that he has left the unit, you can not then go and move the unit... they've already had their movement, otherwise the IC couldn't have left.

The way some of the posts on this are written seems like the IC can't use their normal movement mode if they are choosing to leave a unit (meaning they wont be within 2" after IC and Unit have moved). However from my understanding of the rules if (using OP example) a jump pack equipped IC is with a unit of Terminators wishes to advance further then the Terminators can he moves the distance he wises to move (up to 12") while the Terminators can move their 6", only stipulation is at the end of this combined movement the IC needs to be 2.01" away from the Terminators. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Saiisil wrote:I am pretty much on the 'Slingshot isn't legal' side of the fence but something I have been noticing posted I want to see if I can get a clear understanding of what is being said, insaniak I am going to use something you posted as an example for what I am trying to say/ask.

insaniak wrote:For the IC to leave the unit, he has to be more than 2" away when the unit's movement is complete. So if you have determined that he has left the unit, you can not then go and move the unit... they've already had their movement, otherwise the IC couldn't have left.

The way some of the posts on this are written seems like the IC can't use their normal movement mode if they are choosing to leave a unit (meaning they wont be within 2" after IC and Unit have moved). However from my understanding of the rules if (using OP example) a jump pack equipped IC is with a unit of Terminators wishes to advance further then the Terminators can he moves the distance he wises to move (up to 12") while the Terminators can move their 6", only stipulation is at the end of this combined movement the IC needs to be 2.01" away from the Terminators. Am I wrong in this assumption?

The only thing is when does the unit stop being 1 and become 2? IIRC it checks at the end of the units movemet

Saiisil wrote:The way some of the posts on this are written seems like the IC can't use their normal movement mode if they are choosing to leave a unit (meaning they wont be within 2" after IC and Unit have moved).

This is correct. It's not how a lot of people play it, though.

However from my understanding of the rules if (using OP example) a jump pack equipped IC is with a unit of Terminators wishes to advance further then the Terminators can he moves the distance he wises to move (up to 12") while the Terminators can move their 6", only stipulation is at the end of this combined movement the IC needs to be 2.01" away from the Terminators. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Technically yes.

The thing is. at the time you choose to move the IC, he is a part of the unit. As such, he has to move at the same speed as the unit. The fact that he chooses to move off in a different direction makes no difference to this, because there is no 'declaration' for leaving a unit. You just move the IC and/or the unit, and if the end result is that the IC is more than 2" away from the unit, he has left them.

So as the IC hasn't left them until he has completed his movement, and he is a part of the unit when he performs that movement, he is constrained by their movement rate.

On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

But the SM's have to react to the nobz. You must try to b2b any model in a unit that assaulted you. Since the nobz will be within 6" and not all of the SM's can simply mob the warboss, some will have to engage the nobz unless the SM's are strung out as well...

Allow me to make a slight change to the question. Instead of a group of SM, it's a single model, whether an IC, MC, or Walker.

If it's a single model, I have already been locked in combat by the warboss, so it can't engage anything else.

Since none of the nobz got b2b, then none of them can attack the model assaulted nor can that model allocate any attacks vs the nobz.

We have a player that does this Shrike. Our group seems to be of the opinion that this is a legal move. All this thread has done is made me want to re-read the IC rules. I believe that Insaniak has the right of this. When I have played I have always declared my IC as leaving the unit and moved his full distance (I use Shrike exclusively with my Codex Marine Army). Interesting arguement.

Happyjew wrote:On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

An IC has to move to join a unit, the unit cannot move to join him. So you would have to move the unit of nobz first, and then hope your warboss can get through without passing "through" the nobz.


Technically you onlyu determine who can attck once, BEFORE you resolve any attacks. P49 states an IC is a separate unit during "Resolve attacks", meaning when you work out who can attack it is one unit, and so the nobz can attack even a single model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

An IC has to move to join a unit, the unit cannot move to join him. So you would have to move the unit of nobz first, and then hope your warboss can get through without passing "through" the nobz.


Technically you onlyu determine who can attck once, BEFORE you resolve any attacks. P49 states an IC is a separate unit during "Resolve attacks", meaning when you work out who can attack it is one unit, and so the nobz can attack even a single model.

Also, if the large base size of the ork warboss on a bike enhances this tactic (assuming you do it legally like Nosf says), prepare to be called ont he carpet for an oversized or elongated bike base.

Happyjew wrote:On a related note - I move my warboss on a bike 8" in front of a group of SM (who are now 6" away). I then move a group of nobz forward 6". The nobz are 2" behind the Warboss and I declare the Warboss joining the nobz. I then declare an assault on the SM. As it stands ONLY my warboss is in b2b contact, and the nobz are at best 2" away from the warboss. Would I be right in assuming ONLY the warboss gets to attack (assuming the SMs made their defenders react move towards the warboss)?

As I have pointed out and as Nos has pointed out, Nobz cannot move to join a warboss. The warboss is compelled by the rules to be the party that joins and or leaves a unit.

Brother Ramses wrote:As I have pointed out and as Nos has pointed out, Nobz cannot move to join a warboss. The warboss is compelled by the rules to be the party that joins and or leaves a unit.

Since the check for joining is simply 'Is he within 2" at the end of the phase' it is commonly played that it doesn't matter which of them moves into that range, regardless of what the rules seem to indicate in this situation though.

insaniak wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:As I have pointed out and as Nos has pointed out, Nobz cannot move to join a warboss. The warboss is compelled by the rules to be the party that joins and or leaves a unit.

Since the check for joining is simply 'Is he within 2" at the end of the phase' it is commonly played that it doesn't matter which of them moves into that range, regardless of what the rules seem to indicate in this situation though.

The check is based upon a specific direction given in the rule itself;

The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

I don't see permission for the unit to move within 2" of an IC so he will be within 2" of them at the end of their movement phase. What I see is that the IC has to make the move so that he is, not will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

That leaves only one possible scenario for an IC to join a unit,

1. The friendly unit either moves/does not move.

2. The IC moves so that he is within 2" at the end of their movement phase.

Any attempt to first move the IC and then move a unit so they are within 2" of the IC to join is changing the rule to read,

"The IC can move so that he will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase."

I understand what the rules say. My point was simply that a lot of players don't care, and play that it doesn't matter who moves.

I think this needs a 'how would you play it' poll for both situations. People play it 'wrong' but don't care because it 'feels' right to them.

For this "tactic" to work, you'd have to play 3 rules wrong:

1) an IC can leave a unit using his own movement
2) an IC can leave a unit then be joined by the same unit during the same movement phase
3) a unit can join an IC by moving close enough to an IC

Yes, if you normally play all 3 of those rules wrong, this tactic works just fine.

rigeld2 wrote:For this "tactic" to work, you'd have to play 3 rules wrong:

1) an IC can leave a unit using his own movement

Actually an IC can use his movement to leave a unit, as he is only bound by the speed of the slowest model whilst they stay together.

rigeld2 wrote:2) an IC can leave a unit then be joined by the same unit during the same movement phase

This is correct.

rigeld2 wrote:3) a unit can join an IC by moving close enough to an IC

The rules state that "in order to join a unit, an IC has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase."

So as long as the IC moved.

and is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

he can join the unit.

DR you last point is wrong.

The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement.

not

The IC has to move so he will be within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement.

When you say the IC moved and then add your period as if that is the limit of his action, you are wrong. He has to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their movement. As I pointed out, there is only one possible scenario for that to happen.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the last part of the joining rule. The IC has to move so that he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their move. Presumably the "their move" refers to the unit he wants to join. So it is not as clear cut as everyone is making it out to be. It seems that so long as the IC and unit are within 2" of each other regardless of who moves first they are joined.

Given context "their" means the IC

IMHO, we have to remember that every member of the unit has to move like the slowest one... Saying that you can leave the unit and join it again at the end of movement phase... totally invalidate the rule( and jump packs are not the only example... what if I move out of a terrain first to use the 3d6 roll and then I move the unit?)... or am I wrong?
From a RAW perspective such a move could even be legal but... I think that a little common sense would help...

Although ‘their’ is sometimes used as a singular pertaining to an individual it is most often used as a singular pertaining to a group (a team, a class, a unit, etc). I think, given the context, the fact that ICs are referred to quite consistently throughout the section as he/his/it when in the singular indicates that ‘their’ pertains to ‘a unit’. Granted, GW are inconsistent with their phrasing but to me this seems at best readable either way (ie it might mean the character, it might just as sensibly mean the unit).

Actually whe nyou read the whole sentence it only really makes sense if it were the IC. Otherwise the IC can be "joined" to the unit by simply passing within 2" at some point during their movement

Actually, that would assume every unit has a ‘movement phase’ rather than just the side. It’d be more sensible to assume that ‘their’ applies to both the IC and the unit.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:For this "tactic" to work, you'd have to play 3 rules wrong:

1) an IC can leave a unit using his own movement

Actually an IC can use his movement to leave a unit, as he is only bound by the speed of the slowest model whilst they stay together.

Actually, since he's a member of the unit at the beginning of his movement, and a unit must move at the speed of the slowest member, he may not. The "while they stay together" portion of the rule is a reminder that he's not restricted after he leaves the unit. But until he ends out of coherency, he is still a member of the unit since the rules mention nothing of intent.

There is only one movement phase. Individual models do not have their own movement phase. So at the end of the movement phase you determine if an IC is within 2" of another unit. If so he joins. Or are you telling me that I have an IC completely by himself. He never moves. a Unit moves in and completely surronds him, you are telling me he is not a part of that unit???

No, because HE did not move, as required by the rule. What it means is the unit must stay more than 2" away

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because HE did not move, as required by the rule. What it means is the unit must stay more than 2" away

Exactly.

The rule tells you specifically, that the IC HAS to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. Those are the specific conditions. There is no permission for a unit to move within 2" of a friendly IC at the end of their Movement phase and force him to join. This isn't a blind 2" check at the end of their Movement phase to determine if the IC is joined to a unit. You have to follow the rules for joining an IC to a unit and it does not include units moving to within 2" of a friendly IC.

In the context "Their" is referring to both the IC and the unit, since the IC has to be "within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase."

There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC; and neither of them are truly the unit joining the IC, they are still the IC joining the unit.

The first is for the Unit to move up and the IC to either not move during the movement phase, or for the player to declare the IC as then not moving, this would have the IC "moving" to join in that he was able to move and chose not to; thus joining the unit.

The second is for the unit to move up, and then the IC move but remains in coherency(the IC may move at whatever speed he can individually move at during this movement as he is still not a part of the unit yet).

There is sort of a third Option, wherein you move 2 units up to within 2" of the IC, then at the end of the movement phase, he must decide which unit to join.

Finally the rules are fairly clear if you do not intend an IC to join a unit he must be more than 2" away from any units, and if he moves first your unit cannot end within 2" of him(to avoid confusion, and because units do not join ICs).

If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC

Depending on how you read it and how you measure (and how inclusive you were being), there is another option: have the unit embark in a transport that has an IC in it.

But that is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

DeathReaper wrote:If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Wrong.

Again, your scenario is moving the IC so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase. That is not the rule. The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.

You keep ignoring the present indicative that the rule is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC

Depending on how you read it and how you measure (and how inclusive you were being), there is another option: have the unit embark in a transport that has an IC in it.

But that is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

It is irrelevant. Not because it doesn't pertain to the discussion, but because the rule detailing a unit embarking into a transport and joining the already embarked IC is a specific rule for that instance. No such rule exists for units joining IC any other way.

Brother Ramses wrote:It is irrelevant.

I think I mentioned that.

Brother Ramses wrote:No such rule exists for units joining IC any other way.

Until now no one included the part in bold. I kept seeing "That cannot happen" or some variation thereof.

It actually seems that it can be said to happen, just in a manner that does not help assaults.

Brother Ramses wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are 2 ways for a Unit to "join" an IC

Depending on how you read it and how you measure (and how inclusive you were being), there is another option: have the unit embark in a transport that has an IC in it.

But that is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

It is irrelevant. Not because it doesn't pertain to the discussion, but because the rule detailing a unit embarking into a transport and joining the already embarked IC is a specific rule for that instance. No such rule exists for units joining IC any other way.

In Kirsanth's defence he is correcting me on a technicality; which I wholly endorse. As Bureaucrat 1.0 says "You are Technically correct correct, which is the best kind of correct!"

Although Ramses(and Kirsanth) are also technically correct that it is irrelevant to this discussion; but then my statement had no qualifiers, merely that there were only 2 ways(plus a third), and although I did not say "only" 2 ways, the authoritative tone of my post did indicate that that was my meaning.
So; Good RC Kirsanth!

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because HE did not move, as required by the rule. What it means is the unit must stay more than 2" away

Exactly.

The rule tells you specifically, that the IC HAS to move so he is within 2" of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. Those are the specific conditions. There is no permission for a unit to move within 2" of a friendly IC at the end of their Movement phase and force him to join. This isn't a blind 2" check at the end of their Movement phase to determine if the IC is joined to a unit. You have to follow the rules for joining an IC to a unit and it does not include units moving to within 2" of a friendly IC.

Please quote the page number and exact rule that says you must stay more than 2" away from an IC.

jbunny wrote:Please quote the page number and exact rule that says you must stay more than 2" away from an IC.

Page 48. . ."If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

Not at the end of any particular move in that phase.

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Wrong.

Again, your scenario is moving the IC so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase. That is not the rule. The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.

You keep ignoring the present indicative that the rule is written.

It not wrong if you actually read the whole rule.

The IC moving then the unit moving to be within 2" is the IC moving so that he is within 2" at the end of their movement.

After all units involved have moved (Known as "the end of their Movement phase") if the IC is within 2" (Known as "an IC has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit") then he joins said unit.

So if the IC moved and, at the end of their movement phase, he will join that unit as per the rules.

"the end of their movement phase" can only mean the players movement phase, (It may mean all units involved, but each unit does not have their own movement phase) Though the rule still works as I have shown even if you count each unit to have its own movement phase, since they say their movement phase, they can only be referencing both units movement.

DeathReaper wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If the IC moves first he can join a unit that moves up to him, as he only needs to be within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase.

so at the end of their movement phase, if the IC is within 2" he joins them.

Wrong.

Again, your scenario is moving the IC so he will be within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase. That is not the rule. The IC has to move so he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.

You keep ignoring the present indicative that the rule is written.

It not wrong if you actually read the whole rule.

The IC moving then the unit moving to be within 2" is the IC moving so that he is within 2" at the end of their movement.

After all units involved have moved (Known as "the end of their Movement phase") if the IC is within 2" (Known as "an IC has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit") then he joins said unit.

So if the IC moved and, at the end of their movement phase, he will join that unit as per the rules.

"the end of their movement phase" can only mean the players movement phase, (It may mean all units involved, but each unit does not have their own movement phase) Though the rule still works as I have shown even if you count each unit to have its own movement phase, since they say their movement phase, they can only be referencing both units movement.

It is wrong, if you actually read the whole rule: "The IC simply has to move so that he is within 2 at the end of their movement phase(paraphrased, but only leaving out some minor details that do not change the sentence)" this Plainly states the IC must move to join the unit.

The next bit requires that the IC is within 2" of multiple units at the end of the movement phase; which I covered as Option 3 for a unit joining the character: it requires 2 units.

The last of the Rules states that all units must remain more than 2" from any IC that does not wish to join them.

When you're parsing sentences there are no minor details and paraphrasing is unacceptable. Every word in its exact order with the punctuation shown in its exact place is needed. The changing of even the most "minor" of wording/punctuation can change the entire meaning of the sentence. So either use the sentence as a whole and unadulterated or don't bother with the rest of your statement since there is no way to verify the accuracy of your statement.

Right as long as the IC moves, and he is within 2" of the unit he is joining at the end of their movement phase, he joins them.

You check to see if he is in range at the end of the movement phase, not beforehand, so as long as he is within 2" at that point, and has moved, the order of operations are inconsequential.

*throws wrench*

Can anyone explain to me what the phrase "... and vice versa" in the last bullet of those IC rules means?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:So either use the sentence as a whole and unadulterated or don't bother with the rest of your statement since there is no way to verify the accuracy of your statement.

Except, you know, referencing the rules in the rulebook.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:When you're parsing sentences there are no minor details and paraphrasing is unacceptable. Every word in its exact order with the punctuation shown in its exact place is needed. The changing of even the most "minor" of wording/punctuation can change the entire meaning of the sentence. So either use the sentence as a whole and unadulterated or don't bother with the rest of your statement since there is no way to verify the accuracy of your statement.

Ok; The list of Omitted words(in order): In order to join a unit, an, coherency distance of a friendly unit.

So I will add those words to the sentence:
"In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase"

That does not at all change the meaning that the IC must move to join the unit(And "their" in this case is used as an indefinite singular antecedent; making it the IC & Their movement phase; but of course we all know models do not have their own phases).

And, of course, as rigeld2 pointed out anyone with the BRB can verify the accuracy of my statement, and we would know that that is the book that is to be used as it and the Page reference has be cited earlier in this thread(possibly a number of times).

Kommissar Kel wrote:And "their" in this case is used as an indefinite singular antecedent

A colloquialism I have always despised and questioned the validity of.
Questionable that it is used as such in any case.

somerandomdude wrote:*throws wrench*

Can anyone explain to me what the phrase "... and vice versa" in the last bullet of those IC rules means?

Good Catch.

That means if an IC, that has gone to ground, is joined by a unit that has not, the unit immediately goes to ground as well.

kirsanth wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:And "their" in this case is used as an indefinite singular antecedent

A colloquialism I have always despised and questioned the validity of.
Questionable that it is used as such in any case.

How else do you refer to a gender-indeterminate unknown?

I mean we could follow Futurama and refer instead to "shkle" instead of "he" or "she," and "shklim" or "shkler" instead of "him" or "her"?

we instead only have They, them, and their

Portugal Jones wrote:Wasn't this off of Stelek's blog where he was talking about his wonderfully clever, if awfully rules ambiguous, slingshotting strategy?

Shocking...

somerandomdude makes an interesting point. The last bullet point states that if an IC joins a unit that has gone to ground, he immediately goes to ground as well, and vice versa.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if an IC has gone to ground, he cannot move. If he cannot move, he cannot move to be within 2" of a unit, however, they would still be able to move up to the IC and he could join, although the unit would immediately go to ground as well.

Another interesting note is that with the exception of "he is within" all other references to the IC is "it" i.e. "which unit it is joining", it must remain more than 2" away"

The simple fact that the check for whether or not he is joined is simply 'is he in coherency at the end of the phase?' is going to mean that people will take the suggested 'requirement' of the IC doing the moving as not really being that important.

Going back and referencing which unit actually moved is uneccessary. He's within 2", therefore he is joined to the unit. Keeps it simple.

Note that this interpretation still doesn't allow the 'slingshot' maneouvre that prompted this discussion in the first place. If he finishes the phase in coherency with the unit he started the phase with, he never left them and so would have had to move at the same rate as them.

insaniak wrote:The simple fact that the check for whether or not he is joined is simply 'is he in coherency at the end of the phase?' is going to mean that people will take the suggested 'requirement' of the IC doing the moving as not really being that important.

Going back and referencing which unit actually moved is uneccessary. He's within 2", therefore he is joined to the unit. Keeps it simple.

Note that this interpretation still doesn't allow the 'slingshot' maneouvre that prompted this discussion in the first place. If he finishes the phase in coherency with the unit he started the phase with, he never left them and so would have had to move at the same rate as them.

This is how I and every one I have played with does it. And, if an IC finishes a move within 2", he has technically joined that unit whether you say so or not. (As the brb says if he is not joining a unit, you need to keep the unit more than 2" away). If it seems like it is remotely going to be an issue, (and it is not my army), I would ask at the end of their movement phase what is going on.

Discussing the meaning of "is" and its tense, while interesting, doesnt really matter.

We need to consider where the IC is located *at the end of its movement phase*.





The IC has to move so that he is within 2" of a unit at the end of their Movement phase.




Please note that there is a movement phase for a player, not for each individual unit. So it does not matter whether their refers to the IC, the unit, or both. The time that we perform the check is the same in any case.


This means that an IC certainly can move to a random point on the table, and then be joined to a unit that then later in the same movement phase moves to within 2" of the IC.

The IC has to move, and it has to move to a point that is within 2" when the movement phase ends.


Sliggoth

He IS, not he WILL BE.

If he moves to a space that WILL BE within 2", he has not moved to a place that IS

nosferatu1001 wrote:He IS, not he WILL BE.

If he moves to a space that WILL BE within 2", he has not moved to a place that IS

So, you're just claiming this is a matter of timing? This is obviously solved by just moving your ICs last (if they are not already attached to a unit).

And, you are also saying that if a unit moves to within 2" of an IC, the IC cannot join unless he moves at least a fraction of an inch?

@Nos, I've read your posts, and you are actually one of the few people here who seem to grasp the rules. So I'm asking YOU personally, to explain the last bullet point to me. Specifically the vice versa portion. If an IC has gone to ground, he cannot do anything until the end of his next turn (with some exceptions). If he cannot move, than according to you he cannot join a unit, but the last bullet point says that he can join a unit, but the unit immediately goes to ground as well. Thoughts? (And sorry if I come off as an ... (removed as it is a dirty word...)

GW dont actually know their own rules?

Green - given the first requirement for an IC joining is tht THEY move, then yes thats exactly what im saying.

ANd yes, it is a matter of timing - the IC MUST MOVE to be within 2" of the unit, meaning the bounce trick cannot work from the same unit - you leave the unit, meaning the unit must stay 2" away (if you want to use your movement) or you never leave, meaning you cannot use your own movement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:GW dont actually know their own rules?

.

Or it could be that people over read, over lawyer things to the point that the game completely breaks.

So you dont think the shuffle move is itself a sign of a broken game?

you can only use the shuffle move if the IC is not a part of the unit to begin with, I do not see the issue with using a move like that.

Are you talking about IC leaves unit, moves 8" than rejoins unit? if so yes, that is broken, since a) he has to move at the speed of the slowest model, and b) you check for coherency at the end of the movement phase. As it is since "their" is open to interpretation, moving an IC then moving another unit so hte IC is within 2" to have the IC join, is not necessarily against the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you dont think the shuffle move is itself a sign of a broken game?

Shuffle Move - IC in back Jumps ahead moving 12" and reattaching to the same unit? That is not broken. It is illegal.

IC moving 12" away from unit while unit can only move 6", broken? Nope, again it's illegal.

Saying that an IC cannot join a unit unless it moves, and it has to move last, is over reading the rules, and over lawyering the rules. Esp since the best arguement agaisnt the "Vice Versa" clause is well "GW does not know their own rules."

I should have clarified.

I am talking about an IC that is not attached to a unit using his movement to be the lead model in a unit and attaching, thus extending their assault range.

Happyjew wrote:Are you talking about IC leaves unit, moves 8" than rejoins unit? if so yes, that is broken.

It is actually against the rules to try to do that.

If the IC leaves unit and moves 8" he can not rejoin the unit in the same phase, since the unit has to move at the speed of the slowest model.

jbunny wrote:IC moving 12" away from unit while unit can only move 6", broken? Nope, again it's illegal.

This is actually legal, since the IC is only bound by the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

DeathReaper wrote:

jbunny wrote:IC moving 12" away from unit while unit can only move 6", broken? Nope, again it's illegal.

This is actually legal, since the IC is only bound by the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

No, they were together when the unit was chosen to move. So he's restricted until he breaks coherence. He's only not together with the unit after the end of the movement phase.

He is only restricted by the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

If the IC is leaving the unit, they are not staying together and can use whatever normal movement speed he is capable of using.

"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

So the IC can use his Jump Pack as long as the unit does not "stay together" because they only move "at the speed of the slowest model while the stay together"

They stay together until the end of the movement phase. It does not say "while they intend to stay together". They stay together until after all moves have been made.

as jbunny said. "stay together" means while they're a single unit. They're a single unit until the end of the movement phase.

The while they stay together clause lets the IC use his movement when he is moving away from the unit.

No, the "while they stay together" clause clarifies that he can use his movement after he separates himself. Your statement allows a player to use intent

"Well, I intended to split him off, but changed my mind. I'm not allowed to go back and re-move him, so I guess he gets to stay there."

Can't change your mind once you move the IC away, and if you follow up with a unit you would then have to stay more than 2" away from him, since that IC did not move at the speed of the slowest model.

Can you cite the rules that explain that?

Sure:
"An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." P.48

So when leaving, and moving out of coherency distance he is not bound by the rule of "the speed of the slowest model" since they do not "stay together".

"While an IC is part of a unit,...The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together" P.48

The second point is your opinion on not infact a rule.

DeathReaper wrote:"An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." P.48

Apparently then, the issue is whether "during the Movement phase" includes at the end of the Movement phase? Or am I mis-reading again?

DeathReaper wrote:Sure:
"An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." P.48

So when leaving, and moving out of coherency distance he is not bound by the rule of "the speed of the slowest model" since they do not "stay together".

Is he part of the unit during that movement phase - he only leaves the unit at the end of the phase, right?

No, apparently he "can leave a unit during the Movement phase"
not just at the end, as per P.48

There is no "End of the Movement phase phase." There is Movement phase and then Shooting phase.

Unless you are saying the IC does not leave until the Shooting phase, the end of the phase is part of the phase.

kirsanth wrote:There is no "End of the Movement phase phase." There is Movement phase and then Shooting phase.

Unless you are saying the IC does not leave until the Shooting phase, the end of the phase is part of the phase.

Then there is no Beginning of X Phase, and the game breaks.

The precise moment something stops being, is the end. Therefor the precise moment your moment phase turns into the Shooting Phase is the end of the Movement phase.

That's his point - the end of the phase is still part of the movement phase.

But if you do anything after he leaves, then it is not THE END.

.. Right. You and I agree.

You only check coherency at the end of movement, so while he is moving away he has NOT left the unit.

So since he and the unit are still together... (I'll let DeathReaper fill in the blank).

The quote about him moving away during the movement phase lets him move away during the movement phase.

So he is not still with the unit since he is moving away during the movement phase.

DeathReaper wrote:The quote about him moving away during the movement phase lets him move away during the movement phase.

So he is not still with the unit since he is moving away during the movement phase.

So what would happen if a squad of terminators moves up and is 7" away from an enemy squad. The IC then moves 6" away from his squad (even though he has a jump pack he just moves 6") This puts him 2" away from the terminators and 5" away from the enemy squad. If the other squad that the IC started with moves away from him 6" so as to avoid any confusion.

Wouldn't the IC seperate from his squad at the end of his movement phase since they are more than 2" apart. Since he moved second couldn't he join the terminators? Then couldn't he and the terminators assault the enemy squad? Granted the enemy squad...say orks would then have to use their defenders react move to get into base to base with the terminators, esentially allowing the terminators to get into CC despite being more than 6" away?

Akroma06 wrote:So what would happen if a squad of terminators moves up and is 7" away from an enemy squad. The IC then moves 6" away from his squad (even though he has a jump pack he just moves 6") This puts him 2" away from the terminators and 5" away from the enemy squad. If the other squad that the IC started with moves away from him 6" so as to avoid any confusion.

Wouldn't the IC seperate from his squad at the end of his movement phase since they are more than 2" apart. Since he moved second couldn't he join the terminators? Then couldn't he and the terminators assault the enemy squad? Granted the enemy squad...say orks would then have to use their defenders react move to get into base to base with the terminators, esentially allowing the terminators to get into CC despite being more than 6" away?

Yes this is correct.

rigeld2 wrote: At the movement speed of the slowest of the unit he's attached to. He's still with the unit as he is still attached until the end of the phase.

at his own movement speed.

Since "The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together" the JP could use the JP movement since "An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

The combined unit moves at the slowest speed, since the IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency, he is allowed to use whatever form of movement he is capable of using.

DeathReaper wrote:Since "The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together" the JP could use the JP movement since "An IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

But on the turn that he is leaving the unit, he starts his movement as a part of the unit. He has left the unit if he finishes his movement out of coherency, but that movement is made while he is still with the unit, so he is still constrained by their movement limits.

Actually the wording of it isn't that at the end of his movement if he is out of coherency, it is by moving out of coherency. This I believe is where the thought of him being allowed to move his full distance comes from. ex. IC and Unit start moving, IC moves 2.01" away from unit and continues his move, as he is no longer within coherency he is no longer part of the combined unit therefore no other model to slow him down. Now even with that line of thought if for some reason he ends up within coherency with the same unit again (as all movement theoretically happens at the same time) he hasn't left the unit so he should have been limited to the slowest model.

Saiisil wrote:Actually the wording of it isn't that at the end of his movement if he is out of coherency, it is by moving out of coherency.

Which comes to the same thing. You don't determine that the unit is out of coherency while they are moving... that would be pointless, since the unit is always going to have broken coherency after you move the first model. Instead, as per the Unit Coherency rules on page 12 of the rulebook, coherency applies after the unit has moved. During the unit's movement, you would obviously be checking that each model is finishing his movement in coherency, but you're not checking for the unit to be in coherency at this point, you're just checking where the models are finishing their movement.

If you move the unit and the IC in opposite directions, obviously you're going to know that he's going to be out of coherency after the unit has finished their movement... but he's not actually out of coherency until that movement is completed. There simply is no opportunity to determine that he has left the unit before that movement is complete.

DeathReaper wrote:
The combined unit moves at the slowest speed, since the IC can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency, he is allowed to use whatever form of movement he is capable of using.

And when do you determine if he's out of coherency?

hint: It's not while he's moving. And since you cannot determine coherency until the end of the movement phase, the IC may not use his own (faster) movement during the movement phase.

DR - you only check for coherency when you have FINISHED moving. Meaning he is only out of coherency when he has finished his move, meaning he cannot move away at full speed. Otherwise anytime you move the IC more than 2" away he has left the unit - which is obviously an absurd position to take,

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - you only check for coherency when you have FINISHED moving. Meaning he is only out of coherency when he has finished his move, meaning he cannot move away at full speed. Otherwise anytime you move the IC more than 2" away he has left the unit - which is obviously an absurd position to take,

Incoming from DR,

"whilst they stay together"

And together means as one unit - similar to "with" for GoI. They're one unit till the end of the phase.

I think the next two sentences in the IC joining a unit rules are important to possibly bring more clarity to the situation, or at the very least clarify something for me.

BRB wrote:If the character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.

This may just be me here, but aren't those two statements contradictory? How can an IC end his move within more than one unit in the first place if the IC does not intend to join one of said units? Would not the IC have to move in a way so that it is within 2" of the unit it will be joining, while at the same time remaining more than 2" away from units that it does not intend to join as per the second sentence? I cannot for the life figure out how these two sentences can work together as they seem mutually exclusive of one another as an IC cannot be within a 2" of a unit it is not joining or cannot join while at the same time somehow being within 2" two units of which one by manner of the IC rules it cannot join as an IC can only be joined to one unit at a time. So how could the first sentence even happen as the IC must remain more than 2" away from a unit it is not joining by the end of the Movement phase?

Well, during a large assault an IC could easily end up within 2" of more than one unit for one possibility.



Sliggoth

Irrelevant in assault, as you only join / leave during the movement phase, and cannot join / leave while locked in combat....

I enjoy overcomplicating things, so I thought I would here.

What if our character is on a bike/jetbike and turbo-boosts into coherency with some other unit? The way I read it I think his unit can assault but he can't? Maybe?

On a side note, if a character with a jetbike turbo-boosts 18" and joins an infantry squad that was within 6" of where he started his turbo-boost after that squad has moved, it seems like he doesn't get his cover save. Is this right?

No, they cannot assault. If a member of the unit cannot assault, the unit cannot assault.

That is correct. You must end up more than 18" away from where you started; it is one of the few areas where the rules care about displacement.

Pg 48 BRB First Bullet:

'In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase. If the character is within 2" of more than one unit and the end of the Movement phase, the player must declare[i] which unit it is joining. If a character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must remain [i]more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement Phase. This is to make clear to the opponent if the character has joined the unit or not.'

Seems pretty straightfoward to me. If an IC is within 2" coherency of a friendly unit at the end of the movement phase, he joins the unit. If there's more than one unit within 2" you must declare which unit he is in. If the IC doesn't want to join a unit he has to stay out of coherency with that unit.

If he doesn't want to be in a unit he has to stay out of coherency. In doing so the opponent can shoot at him knowing that the IC isn't apart of any squad.

Pg 48 3rd Bullet:

While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

Pg 48. 4th Bullet:

An independent character can leave a unit during the movment phase by moving out of coherency with it.

The independent character must obey coherency rules while he's apart of a unit and thus move and assault at the speed of the slowest model. However, if the IC wants to leave the unit all he has to do is stay out of coherency, regardless of how far he can move, during the movement phase, just as long as its out of coherency with the unit he's leaving.

...now look at when you check coherency: after you have finished moving. It's pointless doing it before, as a model will always be out of coherency unles syou only move 2" straight forward.

So the IC has only moved away after it has finished its movement, so it cannot leave during its movement, meaning it is still with the unit, so it is restricted to the movement of the lowest speed in the unit.

Question. What if you have an IC with a unit that is Slow and Purposeful, and you roll a 1" movement? If the IC wants to leave the unit he can only move 1".

Then he cant leave the unit. Same as if you're in terrain and roll a double 1, you're not leaving your unit.

Actually, I just realized he could either stay still (moving 0") or he could move 1" in the opposite direction.

He would still be within 2", as the unit will also only be able to move 1"

nosferatu1001 wrote:...now look at when you check coherency: after you have finished moving. It's pointless doing it before, as a model will always be out of coherency unles syou only move 2" straight forward.

So the IC has only moved away after it has finished its movement, so it cannot leave during its movement, meaning it is still with the unit, so it is restricted to the movement of the lowest speed in the unit.

BRB, Pg. 47 under Character Types, First Bullet:

Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight units in their own right. One of the mose useful abilities of independent characters is to join other units in battle, so that they can move in to bolster the battle line where the fighting is fiercest. If a model is an independent character, it will have its own entry in the appropriate Codex, and its rules will also clearly state that the model is an independent character. Bear in mind that there are other models that only ever fight as units of one model, but are not independent characters.

Since independent characters are one model, as such they do no need check coherency because they're one model. Even though the independent character has joined a unit, they are still their own unit, which means the independent character can move out of coherency (i.e leaving the unit) independently regardless of the unit because it is an independent unit and because it is an independent unit it does not have to check for coherency. As long as the independent character stays out of coherency from the unit its leaving, it can move its full distance.

So your above example is moot because an independent character is ONE model.

Actually Nos, if the IC isn't surrounded or in b2b contact with the rest of the unit, he could move 1" the opposite way, and end up more than 2" away.

Page 48 AND 49 disagree with you - "normal member of the unit", page 49.

While joined to a unit they are NOT a separate unit. this is why you are specifically told on page 49 that they are a separate unit in CC, and only while you resolve attacks

So no, you STILL check coherency with ICs.

Happyjew wrote:Actually Nos, if the IC isn't surrounded or in b2b contact with the rest of the unit, he could move 1" the opposite way, and end up more than 2" away.

Yeah, so long as he's on the edge of the unit and not currently in base contact with a model from that unit, him moving 1" one way and the unit moving 1" the other way would put him more than 2" away.

StormForged wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:...now look at when you check coherency: after you have finished moving. It's pointless doing it before, as a model will always be out of coherency unles syou only move 2" straight forward.

So the IC has only moved away after it has finished its movement, so it cannot leave during its movement, meaning it is still with the unit, so it is restricted to the movement of the lowest speed in the unit.

BRB, Pg. 47 under Character Types, First Bullet:

Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight units in their own right. One of the mose useful abilities of independent characters is to join other units in battle, so that they can move in to bolster the battle line where the fighting is fiercest. If a model is an independent character, it will have its own entry in the appropriate Codex, and its rules will also clearly state that the model is an independent character. Bear in mind that there are other models that only ever fight as units of one model, but are not independent characters.

Since independent characters are one model, as such they do no need check coherency because they're one model. Even though the independent character has joined a unit, they are still their own unit, which means the independent character can move out of coherency (i.e leaving the unit) independently regardless of the unit because it is an independent unit and because it is an independent unit it does not have to check for coherency. As long as the independent character stays out of coherency from the unit its leaving, it can move its full distance.

A unit must move as slow as the slowest member.
The IC is part of the unit (he joined the unit).
He is part of the unit until he moves out of coherency, which is checked at the end of the movement phase.
Since he is a member of the unit during the movement phase, he cannot move faster than the slowest member of the unit he joined.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 48 AND 49 disagree with you - "normal member of the unit", page 49.

While joined to a unit they are NOT a separate unit. this is why you are specifically told on page 49 that they are a separate unit in CC, and only while you resolve attacks

So no, you STILL check coherency with ICs.

Independent Character ARE always an individual unit. They have their own statline, price, and abilities. Joining a squad is one of thier abilities, it does not erase their 'independent character' special rules.

The only way you cannot target an independent character is shooting at him in a unit because that is the ability of joining a squad. You can single him out in close combat because he's an independent unit.

Only if they're apart of the unit. Independent characters can still move their full distance in the movement phase while leaving a unit because they are a one model unit that does not need to check unit coherency because its one model. If they move outside of coherency their not apart of the unit anymore. Regardless of how far they move, Independent characters can leave a unit as long as their out of coherency of that unit.

Simple. As. That.

IC /= always their own unit. For a start page 49 disagrees with you most vehemently, in the entirety

Arguing they are still a separate unit while joined to another unit has been tried in the past. It isnt true. Do a search before starting this again
Simple. As. That.

StormForged wrote: Regardless of how far they move, Independent characters can leave a unit as long as their out of coherency of that unit.

Even if I agree with everything else you've posted (which I don't) - you start in coherency. Since you're in coherency, you are part of the unit. You can only move as fast as the slowest model in the unit.

Simple. As. That. (to use your language)

I'm tired of arguing about this grey area.

StormForged wrote:Since the independent character is an independent unit it can move its full distance and check for coherency.

So false it hurts. Citation needed.

So you can move your full distance every single turn, zipping around the unit you're joined with?

StormForged wrote:I'm tired of arguing about this grey area.

It isnt a grey area.

Seriously - do some research on this. Its a tired, tired argument. If you REALLY want the IC to ALWAYS be their own unit, then i am going to declare them as the target of my shooting.