I have to laugh at anyone who attends a private religious school and gets pissed that the school pushes it's religion. What did these guys expect? Prayer calls from a tower?
Kind of like buying a diesel BMW and then pissing and moaning that you have to fill it with diesel fuel.
"Ahh, dumba$$, what part of Catholic and cross do you not understand. Might I suggest if you don't like crosses, you should consider some other school than Catholic."
What did they expect to find in a Catholic school? Stars and crescents? Don't go there and expect them not to be Catholic. That's like attending the Republican national convention and then declaring the image of a elephant offends you.
You know the actual article is about a different subject right? They're not complaining about crosses at a Catholic school at all. They wanted a space for Muslim students containing no crosses/Christian symbols. That's not a silly request. It's quite reasonable. It would take five minutes to clear a room and tell them they can use it.
Ah. I'm trying to understand what their legal claim is. Its a private, religious intstitution. It seems their attorney (I like that he's previously sued the school before) seems to be admitting they don't have a legal claim. Its strange.
You know the actual article is about a different subject right? They're not complaining about crosses at a Catholic school at all. They wanted a space for Muslim students containing no crosses/Christian symbols. That's not a silly request. It's quite reasonable. It would take five minutes to clear a room and tell them they can use it.
Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
The Washington, D.C. Office of Human Rights confirmed that it is investigating allegations that Catholic University violated the human rights of Muslim students by not allowing them to form a Muslim student group and by not providing them rooms without Christian symbols for their daily prayers.
That bolded part seems a bit more serious.
“Our faithfulness to our Catholic tradition has also made us a welcome home to students of other religions,” said Victor Nakas, associate vice president for public affairs. “No students have registered complaints about the exercise of their religions on our campus.”
Thankfully, the complaints aren't from anyone who actually attends CUA. And then there's what students actually said:
Wiaam Al Salmi, a Muslim student at CUA who recently started the Arab American Association, which had is first meeting this week, said, “The community here is very respectful of other religions and I feel free to openly practice it.”
You know the actual article is about a different subject right? They're not complaining about crosses at a Catholic school at all. They wanted a space for Muslim students containing no crosses/Christian symbols. That's not a silly request. It's quite reasonable. It would take five minutes to clear a room and tell them they can use it.
Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
Except for the part where they aren't and you made that up in your head.
Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
And? It's not a ridiculous request to ask for a private space where Muslims may practice without Christian symbols present. I have no idea of the legality of whether the school can deny them this. I don't think its a stupid thing to ask for and I think it would be very respectful and amicable for the school to just say, "Okay, this room isn't used much. We'll clear it for you." A Catholic school doesn't need a cross in every room and a picture of Jesus on every mantle. They can clear a room.
Heck, the school doesn't even have to clear it. Just give the students the ability to clear the room do their thing and then put everything back.
You know the actual article is about a different subject right? They're not complaining about crosses at a Catholic school at all. They wanted a space for Muslim students containing no crosses/Christian symbols. That's not a silly request. It's quite reasonable. It would take five minutes to clear a room and tell them they can use it.
Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
They were complaining about the Basilica being there as well.
Yes, not only is it as silly as it sounds, its a designed insidious attack.
There are crosses and pictures of Jesus around for a reason. It signifies that this is a Catholic space. Muslim devotions are not really appropriate to that space.
These fething idiots. They applied not just to "a" Christian university but the one called "Catholic University of America" let's not stop halfway here. I'm sure the American flag deeply offends their civil liberties as well. They made a choice to attend that college, any rule made to remove Catholic icons at that university should be construed b the university as an prohibition of there right to free exercise. As it is a private institution and the students attendance at the school is a choice not a requirement, thier rights are being infringed upon by choice even if they had actually petitioned the school for a prayer space. Watch the language, AT. The swear filter doesn't catch everything. Thanks! ~Manchu
Btw Pentagrams are a Christian symbol, the wounds of Christ. You won't find it in all but plenty of older catholic churches. Swastikas and hexagrams too if you know where to look. Nepal isn't the only place where symbols that hold negative connotations today are plainly evident.
AustonT wrote:These fething idiots. They applied not just to "a" Christian university but the one called "Catholic University of America" let's not stop halfway here.
Truly, there's no need to blame the Muslim students -- they are happy at CUA and apparently find the atmosphere respectful and have no qualms about being openly Muslim.
Manchu wrote:There are crosses and pictures of Jesus around for a reason. It signifies that this is a Catholic space. Muslim devotions are not really appropriate to that space.
Exactly. In fact these schools could require compulsory church attendance.
You know the actual article is about a different subject right? They're not complaining about crosses at a Catholic school at all. They wanted a space for Muslim students containing no crosses/Christian symbols. That's not a silly request. It's quite reasonable. It would take five minutes to clear a room and tell them they can use it.
Why don't you go to a mosque and ask them to clear some space for some christian symbols.
I'd advise noting where the exits are first.
Frazzled wrote:In fact these schools could require compulsory church attendance.
Most parochial schools do. It's part of the package you sign up for, not some kind of bait and switch. But again, thankfully it's not Muslim students at CUA who seem to be complaining.
Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
And? It's not a ridiculous request to ask for a private space where Muslims may practice without Christian symbols present. I have no idea of the legality of whether the school can deny them this. I don't think its a stupid thing to ask for and I think it would be very respectful and amicable for the school to just say, "Okay, this room isn't used much. We'll clear it for you." A Catholic school doesn't need a cross in every room and a picture of Jesus on every mantle. They can clear a room.
Heck, the school doesn't even have to clear it. Just give the students the ability to clear the room do their thing and then put everything back.
The fact is, a privately funded religious school is under no obligation to provide religious space for other beliefs. Demanding it does so shows no respect on the students part for the host school's religion. As far as I know, any private school, such as this, gives prospective students a copy of the guidelines and practices right up front, so the student knows what they are signing up for.
Frazzled wrote:DOn't be daft. Of course it is. ITS A CATHOLIC SCHOOL.
Daft? Pot meet kettle?
A catholic school doesn't need a cross in every room. I'm a Christian and I'm the one saying this XD How did that happen? Has the world ended while I'm not looking
The basilica issue is much more absurd, but simply asking for a room isn't stupid in anyway.
Relapse wrote:The fact is, a privately funded religious school is under no obligation to provide religious space for other beliefs. Demanding it does so shows no respect on the students part for the host school's religion. As far as I know, any private school, such as this, gives prospective students a copy of the guidelines and practices right up front, so the student knows what they are signing up for.
I don't know the legalities of it. My first guess is that the school isn't under any obligation as well. I'm not saying they have to do it I'm saying it would be nice of them if they did and that a Muslim student isn't an idiot for making the request for use of a simple room.
LordofHats wrote:A catholic school doesn't need a cross in every room.
What a Catholic school needs or does not need is quite beside the point. Just so, with regard to what a Muslim student (or Muslim law professor from some other institution) demands from a Catholic school.
You know the actual article is about a different subject right? They're not complaining about crosses at a Catholic school at all. They wanted a space for Muslim students containing no crosses/Christian symbols. That's not a silly request. It's quite reasonable. It would take five minutes to clear a room and tell them they can use it.
Why don't you go to a mosque and ask them to clear some space for some christian symbols. I'd advise noting where the exits are first.
Good luck with that.
That's not an uncommon occurrence in smaller towns.
I'm wondering how many calls for " understanding" there would be in a reverse situation in which someone was asking Muslims to permit crosses and pictures of Jesus to be aloud within a specificaly " Muslim" establishment..?...or that symbols of their faith be removed for the accomidation of Christians?
FITZZ wrote: I'm wondering how many calls for " understanding" there would be in a reverse situation in which someone was asking Muslims to permit crosses and pictures of Jesus to be aloud within a specificaly " Muslim" establishment..?...or that symbols of their faith be removed for the accomidation of Christians?
Well, if we Catholics only need to be as tolerant to any given group as they are to us we won't get far living out that Gospel message. Read the Golden Rule the right way around: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, not as they have done or probably would do. But even according to the Golden Rule, there's no call to take down Crucifxes or pictures of popes. It's simple; whether or not some individual Catholic would demand that Muslims make room for Christian devotions in a Muslim the rest of us would consider it silly. I mean, it's a Muslim space and we have our own spaces. Like CUA, for example.
Frazzled wrote:DOn't be daft. Of course it is. ITS A CATHOLIC SCHOOL.
Daft? Pot meet kettle?
A catholic school doesn't need a cross in every room. I'm a Christian and I'm the one saying this XD How did that happen? Has the world ended while I'm not looking
The basilica issue is much more absurd, but simply asking for a room isn't stupid in anyway.
Well Lordohats:
1. The lawyers knows this is BS and he's looking for a headline not real government intervention
Banzhaf said that it is technically not illegal for Catholic University to refuse to provide rooms devoid of religious icons.
2. The Catholic school may not NEED a cross or icon in every room, but they have every RIGHT to have one.
3. Go downtown and ask St. Joe's to remove the icons from every room and stop giving the daily prayers. They'd be well within thier rights to laugh in your face, even if they probably won't.
When you utilize services from a Catholic institution you accept the Catholic tradition will be present. You shouldn't attempt to alter that institution, and if yo do they have the right to deny you thier services.
AustonT wrote:The lawyers knows this is BS and he's looking for a headline not real government intervention
That's exactly why he went to the farcical Human Rights Commission rather than to a proper court -- which he himself (along with Frazzled) notes is actually impossible.
FITZZ wrote: I'm wondering how many calls for " understanding" there would be in a reverse situation in which someone was asking Muslims to permit crosses and pictures of Jesus to be aloud within a specificaly " Muslim" establishment..?...or that symbols of their faith be removed for the accomidation of Christians?
Well, if we Catholics only need to be as tolerant to any given group as they are to us we won't get far living out that Gospel message. Read the Golden Rule the right way around: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, not as they have done or probably would do. But even according to the Golden Rule, there's no call to take down Crucifxes or pictures of popes. It's simple; whether or not some individual Catholic would demand that Muslims make room for Christian devotions in a Muslim the rest of us would consider it silly. I mean, it's a Muslim space and we have our own spaces. Like CUA, for example.
And I'd agree with you Manchu..
Being an Atheist , I've no " ax to grind" in the matter, but the idea of attempting to have Catholics remove symbols of their faith within a Catholic institution seems a bit daft to me.
Um, It's a Catholic University. Did they not read the sign before enrolling? Just Saying. It's like going to a strip club and being offended by nudity :-)
I have to agree with the guy that said it on their. I mean really?
You know the actual article is about a different subject right? They're not complaining about crosses at a Catholic school at all. They wanted a space for Muslim students containing no crosses/Christian symbols. That's not a silly request. It's quite reasonable. It would take five minutes to clear a room and tell them they can use it.
Why don't you go to a mosque and ask them to clear some space for some christian symbols.
I'd advise noting where the exits are first.
Good luck with that.
That's not an uncommon occurrence in smaller towns.
Really? Please cite an instance where a mosque has been asked to clear some space in it for Christian symbols. This should make for entertaining reading.
AustonT wrote:
When you utilize services from a Catholic institution you accept the Catholic tradition will be present. You shouldn't attempt to alter that institution, and if yo do they have the right to deny you thier services.
Why shouldn't you attempt to alter the institution?
I think he meant as a matter of courtesy. Of course, if you really believe that you have the only truth then it's pretty "courteous" in a strained sense to attempt to infiltrate and subvert false institutions. But I don't think that's what Muslims attending CUA are up to.
Frazzled wrote:In fact these schools could require compulsory church attendance.
Most parochial schools do. It's part of the package you sign up for, not some kind of bait and switch. But again, thankfully it's not Muslim students at CUA who seem to be complaining.
Agreed, it doesn't appear to be students but a malcontent professor from another school. I'd sue that SOB.
As someone genuinely unfond of the Catholic Church (their protection of child molesters denies they any right to the moral high ground, yet they INSIST they have it by right of the pope)... this is full of garbage.
It's a Catholic insitution. If you aren't even Catholic, what the heck are you doing there? It's like going to an American ballpark and being offended they serve hot dogs. If it bothers you that much, why did you go there in the first place?
The busybody needs to get a hobby, preferably one that doesn't involve sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. If the Muslim students aren't complaining, then why is he?
Frazzled wrote:DOn't be daft. Of course it is. ITS A CATHOLIC SCHOOL.
Daft? Pot meet kettle?
A catholic school doesn't need a cross in every room. I'm a Christian and I'm the one saying this XD How did that happen? Has the world ended while I'm not looking
The basilica issue is much more absurd, but simply asking for a room isn't stupid in anyway.
I am a firm believer in X. I support X to the point that we have started a school to promote X to the students. I expect that while my kids obtain their basic education in reading, writing and arithmatic, they are also going to have an emphasis placed on X. I willingly pay $$ to pay for my kids to go to the School of X.
Now we don't have an exclusionary enrollment policy and someone attends who believes in Y. They want my school, dedicated to X and supported by X believers to make allowances for the religious observance of Y. I feel since it is the dollars of believers in X that are supporting it, it is within my perogative to decide if you will be allowed space to perform Y observances within the confines of my building.
If they persist in a lawsuit to demand it, I would say sorry this is a school of X. If they don't like it, " I am sorry but this is a school of X and I guess you have a choice. Maintain membership in my school understanding that the principles of X are going to be taught or pound sand."
Vulcan wrote:As someone genuinely unfond of the Catholic Church (their protection of child molesters denies they any right to the moral high ground, yet they INSIST they have it by right of the pope)... this is full of garbage.
It's a Catholic insitution. If you aren't even Catholic, what the heck are you doing there? It's like going to an American ballpark and being offended they serve hot dogs. If it bothers you that much, why did you go there in the first place?
The busybody needs to get a hobby, preferably one that doesn't involve sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. If the Muslim students aren't complaining, then why is he?
Manchu wrote:I think he meant as a matter of courtesy. Of course, if you really believe that you have the only truth then it's pretty "courteous" in a strained sense to attempt to infiltrate and subvert false institutions. But I don't think that's what Muslims attending CUA are up to.
My thinking was that if Catholic school X has catholic icons in all possible Muslim prayer spaces, and you're Muslim and would like a prayer space at school, there seems to be no reason that you shouldn't attempt to acquire one by the alteration of school policy; ie. asking for a room without a Catholic icon.
It seems no more discourteous than a Catholic student, at a Catholic University, petitioning the administration for a change in policy regarding the presence of more Catholic icons.
Vulcan wrote:As someone genuinely unfond of the Catholic Church (their protection of child molesters denies they any right to the moral high ground, yet they INSIST they have it by right of the pope)... this is full of garbage.
It's a Catholic insitution. If you aren't even Catholic, what the heck are you doing there? It's like going to an American ballpark and being offended they serve hot dogs. If it bothers you that much, why did you go there in the first place?
The busybody needs to get a hobby, preferably one that doesn't involve sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. If the Muslim students aren't complaining, then why is he?
He's not a busybody. he's trying to get money off them.
Manchu wrote:I think he meant as a matter of courtesy. Of course, if you really believe that you have the only truth then it's pretty "courteous" in a strained sense to attempt to infiltrate and subvert false institutions. But I don't think that's what Muslims attending CUA are up to.
My thinking was that if Catholic school X has catholic icons in all possible Muslim prayer spaces, and you're Muslim and would like a prayer space at school, there seems to be no reason that you shouldn't attempt to acquire one by the alteration of school policy; ie. asking for a room without a Catholic icon.
It seems no more discourteous than a Catholic student, at a Catholic University, petitioning the administration for a change in policy regarding the presence of more Catholic icons.
Except of course the school is being sued by an outstider.
dogma wrote:My thinking was that if Catholic school X has catholic icons in all possible Muslim prayer spaces, and you're Muslim and would like a prayer space at school, there seems to be no reason that you shouldn't attempt to acquire one by the alteration of school policy; ie. asking for a room without a Catholic icon.
I disagree. I would not, for example, ask to sleep overnight at your house and then, upon receiving your hospitality, ask that you remove any objects that offended my religious sensibilities from the room or, at the very least, give me a room in which there were no such objects.
It seems no more discourteous than a Catholic student, at a Catholic University, petitioning the administration for a change in policy regarding the presence of more Catholic icons.
I think that's rather different inasmuch as I can only imagine petitioning more icons in harmony with further promoting the school's Catholic idenity -- for example, asking that another grotto or something be set up. Now if someone wanted to set up some icons not in harmony with that identity -- like icons of SSPX schismatics or something similar -- I would think of that as discourteous.
Manchu wrote:I think he meant as a matter of courtesy. Of course, if you really believe that you have the only truth then it's pretty "courteous" in a strained sense to attempt to infiltrate and subvert false institutions. But I don't think that's what Muslims attending CUA are up to.
My thinking was that if Catholic school X has catholic icons in all possible Muslim prayer spaces, and you're Muslim and would like a prayer space at school, there seems to be no reason that you shouldn't attempt to acquire one by the alteration of school policy; ie. asking for a room without a Catholic icon.
It seems no more discourteous than a Catholic student, at a Catholic University, petitioning the administration for a change in policy regarding the presence of more Catholic icons.
Except of course the school is being sued by an outstider.
Agreed, ASK and perhaps we can have a discussion. Sue and I will kick your butt out of my school and wish you all the best at starting your Muslim school if neither a public or Catholic school fits your desires.
Would I be a Catholic member supporting this school I would be tempted to issue a counter-suit of breech of contract on the school. Not to get any money but to provide them some backbone. Kick them out of school and strengthen the handbooks or permission slips to make this a non-issue in the future.
Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.
This post is in violation of DakkaDakka Rule Number One. Please avoid posting things like this in the future. Thanks! ~Manchu
Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
They appear to be asking for a single room without crosses in which to pray. Also they have not been allowed to 'form a Muslim student group'.
Neither of these requests are unreasonable. It's not that they are 'offended' by the sight of crosses as per this thread title, they just want a single room without crosses so they can do their worship. Also, I don't see why they are not allowed to form a student group like others. That is straight forward discrimination.
I don't get why people think they are so unreasonable. If you're offering a service like education in which you claim to be open to all faiths, it's hardly unreasonable for those attending to expect a little bit of cooperation in this regard. They aren't asking the earth.
warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.
And again IT'S NOT THE MUSLIM STUDENTS DOING ANYTHING.
A lawyer who is essentially an Ambulance Chaser but with anything to do with what might offend other parties is demanding it for people who never asked him to do anything and have gone on the record saying that they're happy with the school.
warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.
You don't have it right. A nationally famous class action attorney famous for such things as "potty equity" is making allegations to a human rights commissio of discrimination. If read carefully, there's nothing in the article that says students are supporting the action (which is weird). The actual complaint, may however, say otherwise.
warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.
To put it in layman's terms. I believe in widgets enough that me and my friends willingly put up hard earned dollars to make a widget factory. Now you believe in gadgets but still willingly join our widget factory. Now you have a choice, politely ask if you can tinker with gadgets in a room at the widget factory or go the full-blown legal route and slap us with a lawsuit demanding that the widget factory must allow for gadget believers as long as we allow gadget believers to work there.
I will then meet with the lawyer and inform him that we will indeed comply with this ruling (assuming it works) and fire any gadget fanatic that currently goes to the widget factory. I will sincerely wish you the best at starting up your own gadget factory.
Vulcan wrote:It's a Catholic insitution. If you aren't even Catholic, what the heck are you doing there? It's like going to an American ballpark and being offended they serve hot dogs. If it bothers you that much, why did you go there in the first place?
The busybody needs to get a hobby, preferably one that doesn't involve sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. If the Muslim students aren't complaining, then why is he?
I suspect the Muslim students believe the quality of the education makes it attractive.
As someone who went to Catholic grade schools that had Jewish and Protestant students who not only chose to go there, but to pony up the tuition (well, at least their parents did) I think there may be something to that train of thought.
The real issue is what doesn't some Muslim organization declare the Muslim students appostates? They obviously are submitting to another religion by paying tuition at that school.
warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.
And again IT'S NOT THE MUSLIM STUDENTS DOING ANYTHING.
A lawyer who is essentially an Ambulance Chaser but with anything to do with what might offend other parties is demanding it for people who never asked him to do anything and have gone on the record saying that they're happy with the school.
indeed correct.
Further, what is reasonable would be defined by the religous institution, not someone else.
Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
They appear to be asking for a single room without crosses in which to pray. Also they have not been allowed to 'form a Muslim student group'.
Neither of these requests are unreasonable. It's not that they are 'offended' by the sight of crosses as per this thread title, they just want a single room without crosses so they can do their worship. Also, I don't see why they are not allowed to form a student group like others. That is straight forward discrimination.
I don't get why people think they are so unreasonable. If you're offering a service like education in which you claim to be open to all faiths, it's hardly unreasonable for those attending to expect a little bit of cooperation in this regard. They aren't asking the earth.
What part of 'it's a Catholic school' is unclear? The school was established to teach Catholic beliefs alongside of college staples. 'Along side of', not 'along with these other options'. It's like going to a barbeque restaurant and trying to get them not to serve pork because it's against your religion. YOUR religion doesn't matter, it's the religion of the owner. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other options - kosher delis for restaurants; non-denominational schools for colleges.
A lot of muslims go to catholic schools because they feel they teach children better morals than secular schools.
There an open market here for someone to start the Islamic University of America. Clearly the Muslim community cries out for a moral education in the Muslim faith.
A lot of muslims go to catholic schools because they feel they teach children better morals than secular schools.
There an open market here for someone to start the Islamic University of America. Clearly the Muslim community cries out for a moral education in the Muslim faith.
Manchu wrote:I disagree. I would not, for example, ask to sleep overnight at your house and then, upon receiving your hospitality, ask that you remove any objects that offended my religious sensibilities from the room or, at the very least, give me a room in which there were no such objects.
But a school is not a house, and is not run in the same way. Notably, I might not seek to invite people to my home as a matter of course, while schools certainly do invite people to attend as a matter of course.
More directly, if, as guest, you are uncomfortable in my home for whatever reason, it is not necessarily discourteous to ask that your lack of comfort be attended to if the request is not overly demanding.
Manchu wrote:
I think that's rather different inasmuch as I can only imagine petitioning more icons in harmony with further promoting the school's Catholic idenity -- for example, asking that another grotto or something be set up. Now if someone wanted to set up some icons not in harmony with that identity -- like icons of SSPX schismatics or something similar -- I would think of that as discourteous.
The school I went to was ostensibly Presbyterian, but carried an image that entailed secularism, or outright atheism. Would it be discourteous for a student to request more Christian (Presbyterian) icons in that case? Or for another student to request the absence of a chapel?
The point being that, even if a school is X, it is not necessarily disrespectful or discourteous to request a concession to something that is not X. Certainly there are disrespectful ways of going about doing so, but the request itself does not carry that meaning (unless the request is something like "You're all morons, ergo I request that you leave this place").
A lot of muslims go to catholic schools because they feel they teach children better morals than secular schools.
There an open market here for someone to start the Islamic University of America. Clearly the Muslim community cries out for a moral education in the Muslim faith.
dogma wrote:But a school is not a house, and is not run in the same way.
True, it's only a mataphor but I think the similarities cover what is important in this case. The school in this instance, like one's home, is not a space that is open to definition by all parties who may possibly attend. The way CUA decorates it's buildings, similar to the way one decorates one's home, reflects a certain set of values. In the case of a Catholic school, those values are central to the identity and mission of the institution. Given that the decorations are connected in this way to the identity and mission, asking that the decorations be removed (whether intentionally or not, hence my use of the word "discourteous") reaches as a sort of critique regarding the identity and mission. When I say that all your pictures are rubbish and your curtains are awful, I am saying (assuming you chose them) that you have bad taste. If you put all of those things up to proclaim your taste and your whole reason for even having a home in the first place is to proclaim your taste ... well, I think you'd be a bit put out.
The point being that, even if a school is X, it is not necessarily disrespectful or discourteous to request a concession to something that is not X.
I still disagree, because the case is loaded. We aren't talking about something incidental, like someone's allergy to down pillows. Rather, the decorations themselves stand so closely for the values that they become entangled -- you might say, this is a sort of sacramentalism. If you smash an icon, you're not just breaking a picture -- there's some kind of blasphemy in addition to the violence. Similarly, saying that the icon offends you is itself offensive to a person for whom that icon is sacred.
I'm so miserably tired of hearing about Soros, please at least tell me you weren't egged on by Glenn Beck and some other compelling evidence pointed you at Soros.
Manchu wrote:The school in this instance, like one's home, is not a space that is open to definition by all parties who may possibly attend. The way CUA decorates it's buildings, similar to the way one decorates one's home, reflects a certain set of values. In the case of a Catholic school, those values are central to the identity and mission of the institution. Given that the decorations are connected in this way to the identity and mission, asking that the decorations be removed is (whether intentionally or not, hence my use of the word "discourteous") reaches as a sort of critique regarding the identity and mission.
I think that's a stretch, particularly given that CUA apparently does not require that all its students be Catholic in the way that, say, Wheaton College* used to require that its students be Christian (though the present pledge is essentially tantamount to it).
*Not to pick on Wheaton, I simply grew up nearby.
Manchu wrote:
When I say that all your pictures are rubbish and your curtains are awful, I am saying (assuming you chose them) that you have bad taste. If you put all of those things up to proclaim your taste and your whole reason for even having a home in the first place is to proclaim your taste ... well, I think you'd be a bit put out.
Right, but if I say X offends me I'm not necessarily calling them rubbish, particularly in the context of a religious ritual.
A thing can be of extreme quality given, and still be offensive for reasons that extend beyond its intended purpose.
Manchu wrote:
Similarly, saying that the icon offends you is itself offensive to a person for whom that icon is sacred.
Sure, though I think that reaction is irrational. But we're not talking about a person, we're talking about an institution, and institutions don't have feelings. The people that participate in them do, sure, but the institution itself does not. Asking an institution to make concessions is entirely distinct from asking a person to do the same, largely because institutional decisions tends towards being calculated rather than felt; even in the case of something like religion.
Manchu wrote:The school in this instance, like one's home, is not a space that is open to definition by all parties who may possibly attend. The way CUA decorates it's buildings, similar to the way one decorates one's home, reflects a certain set of values. In the case of a Catholic school, those values are central to the identity and mission of the institution. Given that the decorations are connected in this way to the identity and mission, asking that the decorations be removed is (whether intentionally or not, hence my use of the word "discourteous") reaches as a sort of critique regarding the identity and mission.
I think that's a stretch, particularly given that CUA apparently does not require that all its students be Catholic in the way that, say, Wheaton College* used to require that its students be Christian (though the present pledge is essentially tantamount to it).
*Not to pick on Wheaton, I simply grew up nearby.
Manchu wrote:
When I say that all your pictures are rubbish and your curtains are awful, I am saying (assuming you chose them) that you have bad taste. If you put all of those things up to proclaim your taste and your whole reason for even having a home in the first place is to proclaim your taste ... well, I think you'd be a bit put out.
Right, but if I say X offends me I'm not necessarily calling them rubbish, particularly in the context of a religious ritual.
A thing can be of extreme quality given, and still be offensive for reasons that extend beyond its intended purpose.
Manchu wrote:
Similarly, saying that the icon offends you is itself offensive to a person for whom that icon is sacred.
Sure, though I think that reaction is irrational. But we're not talking about a person, we're talking about an institution, and institutions don't have feelings. The people that participate in them do, sure, but the institution itself does not. Asking an institution to make concessions is entirely distinct from asking a person to do the same, largely because institutional decisions tends towards being calculated rather than felt; even in the case of something like religion.
Here's the essential problem though. Absent someone being included in the actual complaint, no actual student is alleging this. Its all made up in the head of trial lawyer.
if this were an actual case, it would be kicked out immediately as the lawyer has no standing to sue.
Frazzled wrote:
Here's the essential problem though. Absent someone being included in the actual complaint, no actual student is alleging this. Its all made up in the head of trial lawyer.
if this were an actual case, it would be kicked out immediately as the lawyer has no standing to sue.
I agree.
I'm not necessarily addressing the case in question specifically, but the abstract concept of challenging the identity of an institution and how it is expressed.
dogma wrote:Asking an institution to make concessions is entirely distinct from asking a person to do the same, largely because institutional decisions tends towards being calculated rather than felt; even in the case of something like religion.
There are many facets to a Catholic understanding of institution but one of the more prominent ones is community. A community is made up of individuals who feel and belief. The way that they feel and what they believe motivates them, for example, to build certain infrastructure in and through which their feelings and beliefs as a community can be better expressed. And when people, from within or without the community, ask that the infrastructure be changed in a way that seemingly blunts that expression it isn't "irrational" that the reaction would be negative.
Manchu wrote:There are many facets to a Catholic understanding of institution but one of the more prominent ones is community. A community is made up of individuals who feel and belief. The way that they feel and what they believe motivates them, for example, to build certain infrastructure in and through which their feelings and beliefs as a community can be better expressed. And when people, from within or without the community, ask that the infrastructure be changed in a way that seemingly blunts that expression it isn't "irrational" that the reaction would be negative.
Sure, it isn't irrational for the reaction to be negative, at least in the sense that it might take the form of "No." My point is that to be offended by the request is irrational, as it speaks to a lack of perspective regarding one's place in the world; regardless of whether or not you believe you have a window on absolute truth.
Keep in mind that I say this as a professional cynic who strives to believe as little as possible.
Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.
They appear to be asking for a single room without crosses in which to pray. Also they have not been allowed to 'form a Muslim student group'.
Neither of these requests are unreasonable. It's not that they are 'offended' by the sight of crosses as per this thread title, they just want a single room without crosses so they can do their worship. Also, I don't see why they are not allowed to form a student group like others. That is straight forward discrimination.
I don't get why people think they are so unreasonable. If you're offering a service like education in which you claim to be open to all faiths, it's hardly unreasonable for those attending to expect a little bit of cooperation in this regard. They aren't asking the earth.
What part of 'it's a Catholic school' is unclear? The school was established to teach Catholic beliefs alongside of college staples. 'Along side of', not 'along with these other options'. It's like going to a barbeque restaurant and trying to get them not to serve pork because it's against your religion. YOUR religion doesn't matter, it's the religion of the owner. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other options - kosher delis for restaurants; non-denominational schools for colleges.
Why even accept their applications then? If you're willing to take someone's money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of an effort to cooperate with them so that everyone can get along a bit better.
My point is be careful how hard you want to push. The idea of a lawsuit would make me want to say fine, we will no longer accept those of another faith. We are sorry it has come to this but understand we are paying the bills for this institution with an idea or belief behind it. If you don't like the idea or belief then I guess you had better go elsewhere. Sadly our diversity suffers for it.
@Howard: If you're willing to give someone money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of effort to get along with the tenor of the place so that everyone can get along better.
Manchu wrote:@Howard: If you're willing to give someone money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of effort to get along with the tenor of the place so that everyone can get along better.
I accept that. My point is that it works both ways.
They are making 'some sort of effort' to fit in with the place are they not? They aren't asking that all the crosses are ripped out, they haven't shown any antagonism I can see towards the christian practice in the place, they aren't trying to change the core values of the place. They just want a plain room in which to pray. And they want a Muslim society like the jewish society and other societies. Wow, that's really anti social of them.
I really don't see the muslims as being the unreasonable ones here, it's the University who appear to not be accommodating. The university claim “Our faithfulness to our Catholic tradition has also made us a welcome home to students of other religions" so really they should try to live up to that if they are charging people to come and study there.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Why even accept their applications then? If you're willing to take someone's money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of an effort to cooperate with them so that everyone can get along a bit better.
I think it is safe to assume that they will accept anyone who meets their criteria, but they expect their students ot understand what the whole CUA experience is about and attend with in that environment vice insist the very well established environment change.
Howard A Treesong wrote:They are making 'some sort of effort' to fit in with the place are they not? They aren't asking that all the crosses are ripped out ...
Fitting in at a Catholic school means that you don't ask that any of the crosses be ripped out.
They just want a plain room in which to pray. And they want a Muslim society like the jewish society and other societies. Wow, that's really anti social of them.
Actually, if by "they" you mean "the Muslim students at CUA" then no, they don't want either of those things. The spokesperson I quoted earlier said there have been no student complaints. And the girl who founded the Arab Students Association said that she has no problems at CUA at all, regarding being Arab or Muslim.
I really don't see the muslims as being the unreasonable ones here, it's the University who appear to not be accommodating.
There's no question as to CUA being accommodating. In fact, that is beside the point. CUA need not be accommodating to Muslim students using its infrastructure for Muslim worship and/or devotions and there is no reason that it should be.
Clearly a culture clash here. In the UK you can't offer services to the public without showing you don't discriminate. Religion gets a fair bit of leeway but you probably wouldn't be allowed to encourage people to apply, take money from them and then not offer something as basic as a neutral place for students of other faiths to pray.
Well Lordohats:
1. The lawyers knows this is BS and he's looking for a headline not real government intervention
And I never talked about the lawyer. I talked about the validity of Muslim students asking a Catholic institution that they pay to attend if they can use a room and have Catholic symbols void from that space.
2. The Catholic school may not NEED a cross or icon in every room, but they have every RIGHT to have one.
Why do you assume I think they'd don't have a right?
3. Go downtown and ask St. Joe's to remove the icons from every room and stop giving the daily prayers. They'd be well within thier rights to laugh in your face, even if they probably won't.
Generally speaking, unless you attend a mega-church, Christian services are free and you don't pay to attend. You don't have to pay to attend them, and you don't live in the Church like you do at a university (I assume they live on the campus anyway, maybe they don't).
When you utilize services from a Catholic institution you accept the Catholic tradition will be present. You shouldn't attempt to alter that institution, and if yo do they have the right to deny you thier services.
They aren't trying to get rid of Catholic in Catholic school. They just want a room.
I've never talked about forcing Catholic schools to allow worship of other religions on their grounds despite what everyone seems to be assuming, I'm talking just about the request. The request isn't outrageous nor is it ridiculous. The school can say no and that's not outrageous either.
I merely commented that it would be nice if the school allowed it which is my opinion. It's just one room. I don't see the big deal in that. I go to a secular state funded school and I appreciate that space is provided for religious student groups. I'd wish that consideration on anyone, even at a Catholic school. The difference is that the Catholic school has a legal right (I assume) to refuse, and being a Catholic school, it's not a silly stance to take. It's not my preference but that's they're choice and right apparently.
Manchu wrote:@Howard: If you're willing to give someone money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of effort to get along with the tenor of the place so that everyone can get along better.
How is requesting the use of a room devoid of crosses and pictures of Jesus disruptive to everyone getting along? The refusal can be equally disruptive (like getting you on the news or reported for violating civil rights by some random lawyer).
Manchu wrote:Fitting in at a Catholic school means that you don't ask that any of the crosses be ripped out.
Then why is Notre Dame allowed to grant tacit support to a President who contravenes Catholic doctrine?
Manchu wrote:
CUA need not be accommodating to Muslim students using its infrastructure for Muslim worship and/or devotions and there is no reason that it should be.
Well, there are reasons, they just aren't necessary ones.
I attended two semesters of divinity classes at a school funded and owned by the Southern Baptist Coalition. They had a Muslim professor who taught Islamic religion in the department. Being Catholic is not the same as being anti-Muslim. They can choose to grant such a request, or they can refuse. The refusal doesn't even necessarily make one anti-Muslim, nor would granting it necessarily make you pro-Muslim.
I go to a secular school. There are student groups for every religion (there are four for Christians) except of Hinduism and all those ones no one has ever heard of.
It's a private school, they're extremely Catholic and like having their iconography displayed. If this is an issue for someone, why not go to any of the many schools that don't fit that description?
And I went to a Presbyterian school that ranked highly (maybe even 1st, I don't recall) in the "Most Godless" list that Princeton Review publishes.
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Frazzled wrote:
You might bring your track shoes...
Oh, I assure you, I'm an experienced IRL troll.
Nah. You haven't lived until some old fart's hearing aid starts having a reverb with the sound system and doing a high pitched whine that starts multiple babies screaming . And that was a Bishop.
LordofHats wrote:How is requesting the use of a room devoid of crosses and pictures of Jesus disruptive to everyone getting along?
If it's anything like the school I went to, there are a few rooms without a crucifix: janitor's closet and bathrooms. Now, clearly, these aren't appropriate for prayer. All rooms that are appropriate for prayer have a crucifix on the wall -- you know, because Catholic may want to pray there. The issue is not whether Muslims can or cannot pray in that same room. Catholics prefer to have a crucifix on a wall to facilitate their Catholic devotions at a Catholic school. It's a Catholic space. Muslims offended by the crucifx are simply out of luck.
Monster Rain wrote:I don't know why it's even being discussed.
It's a private school, they're extremely Catholic and like having their iconography displayed. If this is an issue for someone, why not go to any of the many schools that don't fit that description?
It just smacks of some more of that IRL trolling.
Ironically, large numbers of Muslims do like attending Catholic and other Christian schools. Someone, Corpse I think, mentioned previously that they do it because they think the morals (and in many cases the education itself) are superior to other institutions. To add to that, Christian schools, tend to be higher quality and have less strict entrance requirements than some secular schools. Some non-Christians actually attend these schools for the same reasons.
Why don't they form a school for Muslims? Try finding a way to finance that project. You can't start a university on wishes and a dream. It takes a lot of financial backing, and I'm unsure if that exists in the US for such a small minority as the American Muslim population.
It is a little of a culture blame, the Anglicans. The reconciliation and guarantee of religious freedoms in this country established a tradition of non-interference with religious institutions so long as they didn't harm anyone elses rights. The UKs experience with religion has been more...public, and somewhat more turbulent. But it's suffice to say that certain rights that guarantee religious freedom also guarantee that the institutions cannot be forced to give up thier religious traditions just because they offer a service to thier parishioners.
The catholic church could sustain you from cradle to grave in a catholic hospital, Orphanage, primary school, secondary school, university, the church itself, back to the hospital, and interred in a catholic tomb. At no step in that process is the churc required to open it's doors to non Catholics, when it does it does so out of charity, which in it's own way is an extension of thier free practice of religion...
dogma wrote:Then why is Notre Dame allowed to grant tacit support to a President who contravenes Catholic doctrine?
You mean JFK or Barack Obama?
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dogma wrote:
Manchu wrote:CUA need not be accommodating to Muslim students using its infrastructure for Muslim worship and/or devotions and there is no reason that it should be.
Well, there are reasons, they just aren't necessary ones.
LordofHats wrote:To add to that, Christian schools, tend to be higher quality and have less strict entrance requirements than some secular schools. Some non-Christians actually attend these schools for the same reasons.
Whatever their reasons for attending, it doesn't change the fact that the school is a private institution and should be allowed to continue to do things the way that they want to. Insert legal/ethical qualifier here for the pedantry brigade.
Monster Rain wrote:Whatever their reasons for attending, it doesn't change the fact that the school is a private institution and should be allowed to continue to do things the way that they want to.
No one is saying they can't do it the way they want to. All I've ever argued is that asking isn't stupid or some diabolical plot to take over the world and destroy all Catholicism. All they asked for was a room, not the Pope's hat on a platter.
LordofHats wrote:All I've ever argued is that asking isn't stupid or some diabolical plot to take over the world and destroy all Catholicism. All they asked for was a room, not the Pope's hat on a platter.
All anyone here, besides you, has been talking about is a room.
Monster Rain wrote:Whatever their reasons for attending, it doesn't change the fact that the school is a private institution and should be allowed to continue to do things the way that they want to.
No one is saying they can't do it the way they want to. All I've ever argued is that asking isn't stupid or some diabolical plot to take over the world and destroy all Catholicism. All they asked for was a room, not the Pope's hat on a platter.
And all we're saying is that the owner of the school oddly enough the Catholic Church has every right to say no, because tha. Does not conform with Catholic practices.
The FIRST section of the student code is:
Authentic Catholic community is born of deliberate ongoing commitment from every student to live in accordance with Catholic values and expectations...Students who enroll at the University assume an obligation to conduct themselves in a manner compatible with the University’s interests as a Catholic educational institution.
AustonT wrote:And all we're saying is that the owner of the school oddly enough the Catholic Church has every right to say no,
So then why are we banging our heads into the wall? Read:
No one is saying they can't do it the way they want to.
When and where did I argue that the room must be provided? This has been applied to me for four pages now, and it's ridiculous. I never said the school had to do it. I stated my personal preference for what be done and that's it. Why are people arguing with me about a position I don't hold? I stated my position clearly on page two of this thread:
I'm not saying they have to do it I'm saying it would be nice of them if they did and that a Muslim student isn't an idiot for making the request for use of a simple room.
Reading comprehension is simple when you actually read.
LordofHats wrote: Reading comprehension is simple when you actually read
Sho is boss. 4 pages ago in the original post a linked article said that the only one making these claims is a well known lawyer and the school had received no complaints.
LordofHats wrote:I'm saying it would be nice of them if they did and that a Muslim student isn't an idiot for making the request for use of a simple room.
To be fair, people who accused Muslims students of being foolish for accepting a place at a Catholic university and then complaining about there being a crucifix on a wall in every room suitable for prayer are right. That is foolish. To continue being fair, people who thought that was what was going on in this case did actually read ... they read the title of the thread.
Manchu wrote:CUA need not be accommodating to Muslim students using its infrastructure for Muslim worship and/or devotions and there is no reason that it should be.
Well, there are reasons, they just aren't necessary ones.
Yes, sorry, that's more accurate.
There are reasons to do that as well, especially from an institutional perspective.
olympia wrote:The Muslim students will have the last laugh when all the Catholics get sent to hell and have their bowels tormented as the Qu'ran dictates.
Okay, so I missed the part about the scumbag lawyer making trouble on their behalf, my bad. But you have to admit, if they continue to out-reproduce Europeans, in fifty years, Europe will be just another bunch of poor Muslim countries under Sharia law and the few hereditary Europeans left will be forced out. Then they will tear down the Vatican and replace it with a Mosque, and y'know who will be their next target? Yeah...
warpcrafter wrote:Okay, so I missed the part about the scumbag lawyer making trouble on their behalf, my bad. But you have to admit, if they continue to out-reproduce Europeans, in fifty years, Europe will be just another bunch of poor Muslim countries under Sharia law and the few hereditary Europeans left will be forced out. Then they will tear down the Vatican and replace it with a Mosque, and y'know who will be their next target? Yeah...
Islam had a healthy stronghold on the Iberian from the early 8C to the late 15C if/when political correctness loses out to survival Europe can forcibly expel the Muslims should they desire.
warpcrafter wrote:Okay, so I missed the part about the scumbag lawyer making trouble on their behalf, my bad. But you have to admit, if they continue to out-reproduce Europeans, in fifty years, Europe will be just another bunch of poor Muslim countries under Sharia law and the few hereditary Europeans left will be forced out. Then they will tear down the Vatican and replace it with a Mosque, and y'know who will be their next target? Yeah...
A well reasoned argument, that is completely free from prejudice.
warpcrafter wrote:Okay, so I missed the part about the scumbag lawyer making trouble on their behalf, my bad. But you have to admit, if they continue to out-reproduce Europeans, in fifty years, Europe will be just another bunch of poor Muslim countries under Sharia law and the few hereditary Europeans left will be forced out. Then they will tear down the Vatican and replace it with a Mosque, and y'know who will be their next target? Yeah...
A well reasoned argument, that is completely free from prejudice.
AustonT wrote:Sho is boss. 4 pages ago in the original post a linked article said that the only one making these claims is a well known lawyer and the school had received no complaints.
And no one is really talking about the lawyer. That discussion folded into talking about Muslims being offended by crosses, which isn't even close to what the article is about, and if Muslim students can make requests for a space void of Catholic symbols. Besides, the Lawyer isn't just talking about Catholic symbols, he's also interested in why there is no Muslim student association. Apparently the school has the position that they don't want one (but a Jewish student association is okay with the school, at least according to the lawyers claim, which is a somewhat dicey position to hold).
EDIT: Honestly, the lawyer isn't even really relevant. If the question is "Do Muslim students have a right to a space devoid of Catholic symbols at a private Catholic institution," that a complaint was filed by some random third party isn't even pertinent to the question at all unless we're trying to figure out what ax he's trying to grind.
None of which is at all connected to people somehow reading and replying to my posts while completely missing what I'm saying.
Manchu wrote:To be fair, people who accused Muslims students of being foolish for accepting a place at a Catholic university and then complaining about there being a crucifix on a wall in every room suitable for prayer are right. That is foolish.
If that was the actual issue, as I made clear in the very first post I made before the article was posted for accessibility, yes it is foolish. Except that isn't what happened and I've somehow become trapped between trying to talk about what's actually going on and what people in the thread are babbling about *brain hurts*
AustonT wrote:
Islam had a healthy stronghold on the Iberian from the early 8C to the late 15C if/when political correctness loses out to survival Europe can forcibly expel the Muslims should they desire.
Whut?
You're really citing the political situation from 500+ years ago as precedent that has any bearing on the one that exists today?
LordofHats wrote:EDIT: Honestly, the lawyer isn't even really relevant. If the question is "Do Muslim students have a right to a space devoid of Catholic symbols at a private Catholic institution," that a complaint was filed by some random third party isn't even pertinent to the question at all unless we're trying to figure out what ax he's trying to grind.
and that is the question to which I have tried to answer. From what I've seen of the public and protected instiutions code. The answer is no, if the question is one of religious freedom the answer is still no, if the question is should it even be asked, again no. There is nothing to compel the CUA to provide them with a space to pray in except the goodness of thier heart.
AustonT wrote:and that is the question to which I have tried to answer. From what I've seen of the public and protected instiutions code. The answer is no, if the question is one of religious freedom the answer is still no,
Legality and morality don't go hand in hand. That said, I think that these two questions are straight forward. The first more so than the second. The second is debatable but that one will always boil down to "why are you at a Catholic school in the first place" assuming we agree they have a moral right to such a space.
EDIT: Then again, that brings up a similar issue in the context of secular schools. The more I think about it the more I don't like the implications.
if the question is should it even be asked, again no.
I think that's a position with no leg to stand on. Asking a question is simply asking a question. Surely even a Catholic school doesn't have a moral objection to students, no matter what their religion, asking for something. This is more a matter of whether or not what is being asked is reasonable or not, and if it is reasonable to refuse/accept. I obviously don't find this request unreasonable. What they're asking for is done all over the country in numerous schools, including non-secular ones. They have nothing to lose in asking (I hope) and I can't see how it's an insult or inconsiderate to ask. It's just a question.
There is nothing to compel the CUA to provide them with a space to pray in except the goodness of thier heart.
Assuming they have to be compelled. Assume maybe the school just never considered it. Running a university isn't an easy job. Things get forgotten. There's no harm in asking in such a case. The school might just go "oh" and give the space out of the "goodness of their hearts" or maybe they just want their students to be pleased or feel a moral responsibility to serve the needs of the student body.
This obviously isn't the case at CUA, but there's no desire apparently from the students to compel the school to do anything. Should a student make such a request it's not really compulsion until they sue. The school is make a choice. Do or do not.
Frazzled wrote:DOn't be daft. Of course it is. ITS A CATHOLIC SCHOOL.
Daft? Pot meet kettle?
A catholic school doesn't need a cross in every room. I'm a Christian and I'm the one saying this XD How did that happen? Has the world ended while I'm not looking
The basilica issue is much more absurd, but simply asking for a room isn't stupid in anyway.
thats not how it ends, only how it starts.
If you watch Islam for any length of time you will see a pattern, want concession, then another one, then another, ad mauseam with little reciprocation.
First its no crosses in a room, then it no crosses in most rooms, or one room for a Moslem prayer room, or both.
Its worse in the UK, while the majority of the pandering stopped with the change of government the damage had mostly been done. One supply teacher I know told me of how one example school that because multi faith is now. The government formally made the school (a state school) multi faith, that much sounds fair and logical. However now the moslem students pay attention to teaching on Islam then get very disruptive during any other faith teaching, en masse. They say quite openly that they don't want to hear about any other faith, and clearly don't want anyone else to either. Any attempt to teach non-Islamic religious studies is met with protest and disruption irregardless of whether other kids want to listen. This is by no means isolated, kids are easy to radicalise, if one or two hardline non cooperate Islamic families bring their kids up to think of Islam as a dominant force that does not share a cultural milieu with others then the rest of the Moslem kids will end up following suit because noone in their community says otherwise, especially in inner city schools.
Time and again I see the same thing happening, multi faith is not reciprocated by Moslems, in fact hardliners think multi faith is a sign of western weakness and how it is wide open to a 'stronger' religion like Islam. While such activism is still a minority occurance, its a much larger minority than many are prepared to admit and more tellingly the majority does little to counter the protest. In Christian, Jewish and Oriental relgious cultures the majority criticise reign in the fanatics, and educate their own kids agaisnt fanaticism (by and large) wheras there is very little criticism of hardline Islam by moderate Moslems and little of that trickles into the schools.
@LordofHats
Forgive me I'm not going to use quotes.
The second question of the religious compulsion to provide a space.
I contend that Muslim students by accepting admission to the Catholic University of America agree to abide by it's student code and mission statement. Both clearly indicate that the Universities primary goal is to promote Catholic traditions and education. By accepting those rules these Muslims have indicated they are aware that the institution promotes one and only one faith. To invoke the protections of for the free exercise of religion to force the University to remove it's icons would force the GOVERNMENT to enact prohibition against the University. The students having no reasonable expectation to practice thier religion at the CUA, cannot hold that thier religious freedoms are being restricted. The CUA on the other hand can, having established thier institution openly on religious principles. That's my argument against any students of any other faith attempting to receive a space free of catholic articles.
As for ASKING for one, there's certainly no harm done. But a quick skin of the student code makes it clear that as thier practices are not in keeping with the catholic tradition they shouldn't expect any answer but no.
AustonT wrote: To invoke the protections of for the free exercise of religion to force the University to remove it's icons would force the GOVERNMENT to enact prohibition against the University.
Or revoke their funding of it, should such funding exist.
AustonT wrote: I contend that Muslim students by accepting admission to the Catholic University of America agree to abide by it's student code and mission statement.
That doesn't mean they can't take action to try to get the school to change the student code and mission statement. As American citizens, we presumably agree to obey the laws of the United States of America. That doesn't mean we can't protest or petition for reform in or out of courts etc.
The students having no reasonable expectation to practice thier religion at the CUA, cannot hold that thier religious freedoms are being restricted.
Sure they can. And their freedom is in a way being restricted. The issue is that they have, presumably, agreed to it. But that doesn't mean they can't request changes be made. Another possibility though is finding nearby space that is not the property of the campus which may or may not be possible.
The CUA on the other hand can, having established thier institution openly on religious principles. That's my argument against any students of any other faith attempting to receive a space free of catholic articles
I'd contend both parties may take action to pursue their own interests, the school board just has the added benefit of being the final authority baring interference from outside parties. I find no issue with Muslim students making their requests apparent and the school responding no. It's not my preference, but the school is private and ultimately I see no reason for them to change their mind unless they start losing money and I doubt they'll lose much over this.
LordofHats wrote:
Sure they can. And their freedom is in a way being restricted. The issue is that they have, presumably, agreed to it. But that doesn't mean they can't request changes be made. Another possibility though is finding nearby space that is not the property of the campus which may or may not be possible.
Or praying in front of the main chapel.
But then confrontation is sort of my thing, and probably not well suited to ending this diplomatically.
The students having no reasonable expectation to practice thier religion at the CUA, cannot hold that thier religious freedoms are being restricted.
Sure they can. And their freedom is in a way being restricted. The issue is that they have, presumably, agreed to it. But that doesn't mean they can't request changes be made. Another possibility though is finding nearby space that is not the property of the campus which may or may not be possible.
I think you are stretching here, and not just a little bit. The CUA is in essence a church that happens to offer an education. As a Muslim could not reasonably expect to freely practice his/her religion inside of a Catholic Church, the equally can have no reasonable expectation to practice their religion in THE National University OF the Catholic Church. As any curtailment of the churches activities are a direct infringement of thief right to practice religion freely. While the Muslim(and Jew, and Protestant, etc) has made a conscious decision to receive the services and the inherent restrictions of entering an institution wholly owned by the Catholic Church.
AustonT wrote:The CUA is in essence a church that happens to offer an education.
No, it was founded as a University, and has been one for its whole existence. It is affiliated with the Church, but it is not a church. Pretending otherwise is deliberate distortion.
AustonT wrote:
As a Muslim could not reasonably expect to freely practice his/her religion inside of a Catholic Church, the equally can have no reasonable expectation to practice their religion in THE National University OF the Catholic Church.
olympia wrote:The Muslim students will have the last laugh when all the Catholics get sent to hell and have their bowels tormented as the Qu'ran dictates.
Or the Jews will...
Or the Mormons. will have the last laugh
Anyway its kind of a silly thing to think about. Its a catholic school... Not a bring your own religion and remove crosses of that school's property. Its their property they can do what ever they want with it. It is not the kid's property. It is the Universities.
DIDM wrote:
I hate the modern age, a bunch of pansies IMO. Cry Cry Cry, over gak that has been and always will be the same. Why waste your breath silly fools
I wouldn't have trouble praying in a mosque. I find the students request odd and hold nothing against the school for refusing. I also hold nothing against the muslim students for asking.
@LordofHats, I'm pretty sure the outrage you're bemoaning is over the scenario where, after being refused a room, the muslim students sue the school. I hold that would place the students firmly on the nutters side of the equation. Fortunately everything is a lot more peachy right now at the school we're discussing than it is on this topic here on the boards.
One is muslims supposedly being offended by christian symbols when the moon and crescent that was the symbol of the ottomans and continues to be used on the flags of muslim countries and various muslim organizations/buildings/art was a christian symbol prior to them supplanting it ( and christianity took it from a pagan religion). They also revere Jesus as highly as Mohammad, so its weird that they'd be so offended by pictures of him. I get that certain hardline sects are against "idolatry", but they had to know to expect this prior to attending. Catholicism is heavy on the idols, amongst other things.
Another is the wording by the lawyer, muslim prayer is not meditation as he words it. Nor at any part in their ritual do they look up, its all about prostrating before god in the direction of mecca. I also believe their eyes are closed during this as well. There are a few rules about where to pray and such, and nowhere in my cursory knowledge of islam does it say you can't be surrounded by things that don't conform to Islam. Caveat here is that I'm not an expert on Islam, I just remember this from high school when we studied world religions, so I may have a few things wrong here. If this is legit, it says more about the religious focus and spiritual intentions of the muslims involved then it does about discrimination.
Also, this lawyer also tried to sue this same university over same-sex dormitories and called it discrimination or some such nonsense. It seems to me that this lawyer is trying to grab headlines by attacking high profile targets. Like an atheist Westburo Baptist Church.
Lastly, I have trouble seeing who truly benefits from this. If the muslims that supposedly feel discriminated get their way, it plays right into the hands of every Quran burning pastor, islamaphobic extremist in both political parties, Glenn Beck/his followers and just fuels the narrative that Islam is trying to Islamicize the west. All this does is set back the image of every muslim american.
NELS1031 wrote:They also revere Jesus as highly as Mohammad...
No, not at all. Islam acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, but he is not held in the same regard as The Prophet (Muhammad). Its sort of like how Christianity views Moses.
The Lawyer is certainly just trying to get attention - that seems apparent.
So many analogies here - so many accurate similarities between the huge differences of Tolerance levels.
Simply put - dont come to my 40K Tourny(To hopefully gain insight/increased capabilities of game-play), pay for entry - then state that you want a Table dedicated to Tau battles ONLY, as you find Space Marines(HURR) are given too much 'space' - or Imperial Terrain offends you.
I would essentially say this "Cool mate - I am sure there is a room in YOUR house you can set a Table up with those parameters - but you won't find a 2' x 2' table here that I would 'move' my Imperial terrain for you to play on. So - like it, or not - but whilst here - YOU WILL PUT UP WITH IT OR GO AWAY!"
*...Money refunded - door swings momenterily as they leave.
As far as I'm aware there is no requirement for Muslims to pray in a separate room free from other religious icons. From what I remember devout Muslims will pray wherever when the time for prayers comes along, even in the streets.
The college isn't stopping them praying, it does appear to be trying to prevent them from segregating themselves from the rest of the college community however.
Remember kiddies segregation is bad wether self imposed or imposed by other parties (except for criminals).
dogma wrote:
No, not at all. Islam acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, but he is not held in the same regard as The Prophet (Muhammad). Its sort of like how Christianity views Moses.
But its sort of not like that.
Belief in the gospel of christ is required alongside the quran of mohammad in islam, they just regard mohammad as the last prophet who came and corrected what man adjusted in jesus gospel. He is even mentioned more by name then any other prophet in the quran, including Mohammad.
They regard him as more then a prophet, he is their messiah to them as well as to christians and will kill the false prophet ( anti-christ in christian mythos) at the end of days in muslim theology. To say that they don't revere him at all is misinformed.
To be fair if I went to an Islamic school and wanted a room with a crucifix or whatever I've a feeling I'd be laughed if not stoned out of the place.
Islam is spread by the sword according to some Catholics that i know, whereas christianity is supposed to be spread by love and thrives under persecution.
Also Muslims tend to have larger families and will outbreed most protestants (and contraceptive using Catholics) since they tend to practice birth control. Only the 'quiverfull' guys in the states might out breed!
Since I have been a loyal customer of Burger King for years it is but reasonable for me to request an area in their restaurant where I can eat my Big Mac in peace.
NELS1031 wrote:They also revere Jesus as highly as Mohammad...
No, not at all. Islam acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, but he is not held in the same regard as The Prophet (Muhammad). Its sort of like how Christianity views Moses.
Moses. Now there was a man who could adapt to changing circumstance.
Phototoxin wrote: Islam is spread by the sword according to some Catholics that i know, whereas christianity is supposed to be spread by love and thrives under persecution.
I'm all about slamming Islam but let's not exchange history for propaganda.
Ira Lapidus wrote:
It is now apparent that conversion by force, while not unknown in Muslim countries, was, in fact, rare...Muslim conquerors ordinarily wished to dominate rather than convert, and most conversions to Islam were voluntary.
I think that perhaps the Saxons, specifically might argue against the spread of Christianity by love. There's plenty of other examples but that will do just fine. Islam expanded as an empire first and conversion second. Early on conversion to Islam granted economic and social benefits that Arab merchants didn't want to allow to compete with their domination of the growing Islamic empires. Anyways...
The Ottomans, IIRC, conquered areas that were Christian and allowed them to retain their religion and churches as long as they promised to be good little territories. Incredibly tolerant for their times compared to the Christian churches of the time.
But this is case is just silly and this lawyer is very silly.
Islam is an incredibly tolerant and compassionate religion, just as Christianity is. Anyone whom thinks otherwise is under Western indoctrination (IMHO) and has failed to read into the Qu'ran and the Bible simultaneously. The problem always lies within the interpretation of scripture and writing. Religion is not the problem, it is the people whom wield it.
I generally avoid religious threads in forums, especially threads that relate to Islam. Muslim-bashing almost always follows. Understanding of all religions is key to compassion and love, not the one-sided hardline Christian view or 'extremist Muslim view' that so many are quick to jump to. S'pose it's a fine job that I begin Buddhism classes again in November, eh?
Political Correctness is the work of the Devil. I personally don't care that there are crosses at a Christian University and no-one should feel offended.
Welcome to American politics. Guns, God, and Gays. It's all we talk about.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
Theblitzkrieg wrote:Political Correctness is the work of the Devil.
Uhm. No.
No it is not.
One can argue that people go too far in tryingto achieve it, but it is not a bad thing in and of itself.
"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
