Thats right, just got off the phone with ACD and they said begining in November all Distrubutors will now be treated like customers, as in they will recieve new releases when they drop on the street and no sooner. I think this is a terrible step for GW to be taking. Your thoughts?
Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.
Honestly are they wanting to make themselves bankrupt (because they will eventually, the market for overpriced minis wont hold forever...though I guess it just has to hold till the CEO's retired to Cyprus), or is this all just some really complex marketing scheme? ¬¬
You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
Surprised? No.
Laughing quietly to myself as GW potentially alienates stores? Yes.
I guess it could make sense for them financially. If their goal is to increase revenue in their stores specifically. That being said the lack of mark ups in retailers tells me that they're getting most of that money also. So what this does is make it so people like me who don't live within 10 hours of an actual GW store will have to either order online, which whatever that's fine in most cases. What concerns me is that their ethos seems backwards. Say I am going to release a new gaming system, car, tv show, whatever. I want people to know that my product is coming out. Make a release date and make sure everyone knows that at midnight that night their new shiny is coming out. Then you get people literally lining up to buy your product at launch. This produces good numbers to show investors that you have profitable launches and starts word of mouth more quickly.
I guess I'm not sure were GW is going with this. Are they just trying to keep their releases on their terms. I can understand that but I think other thriving industries have shown a little hype goes a long way. Maybe they're worried the necron models and rules will get bad reviews so they don't want people making purchasing decision ahead of time but that is a deeper problem on their part. It seems a little conspiracy-ish to assume it's a grand marketing scam, which it still could be i guess. Hype has been created but it usually helps a company's image and this has seemed to hurt in the eyes of a lot of player.
Grimstonefire wrote:Logically from their perspective they want:
> as many people in their stores as possible.
> as many paying full retail price as possible
So it doesn't surprise me as it's common sense really.
How far in advance were/ are they selling them these days anyway?
I see nothing in the OP that says this is a policy to get customers in to their stores, nor that indies can't sell at discount.
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Wyrmalla wrote:Honestly are they wanting to make themselves bankrupt (because they will eventually, the market for overpriced minis wont hold forever...though I guess it just has to hold till the CEO's retired to Cyprus), or is this all just some really complex marketing scheme? ¬¬
Overpriced? Expensive, yes, but feel free to justify it being overpriced.
Ain't got a problem with it. It's GW's train set and they can do what they want with it. While I keep liking the game and it's models I will keep on buying.
It's like people are scared to walk into a GW store these days. If you have to wait a day or two longer for it to hit a local independent so what. Wait and shut up.
The whole GW hate thing is really getting rather boring. If you don't like what they do find another game and associated forum. It really is that simple and means every doesn't have to read constant whining about some thing or another GW does with their product.
Chim, the GW hate has been going on for years. It will never stop. I totally agree with your comments. You can curse the darkness, or you can light a candle.
Chimaera wrote:Ain't got a problem with it. It's GW's train set and they can do what they want with it. While I keep liking the game and it's models I will keep on buying.
It's like people are scared to walk into a GW store these days. If you have to wait a day or two longer for it to hit a local independent so what. Wait and shut up.
The whole GW hate thing is really getting rather boring. If you don't like what they do find another game and associated forum. It really is that simple and means every doesn't have to read constant whinning about some thing or another GW does with their product.
This forum isn't just for 40,000, also this is another of GW making what we called a stupid move.
Where's the beef? Lots of things have street dates which means everyone gets them at the same time. Not sure that there is a problem with a product maker controlling the releases. It doesn't strike me as something that is bad for me, the customer.
Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it. I would want to hear from store owners like mikhaila and have them tell us what the policy actually is and how it actually impacts indy stores before I get my torch and pitchfork for another GW internet lynch mob.
If GW wants to withold information on releases, and independent retailers are leaking information that GW doesn't want them to why wouldn't they withold the data from them? Independent retailers should want to stock GW product if it makes them money, and should not stock the product if it doesn't. They should also abide by whatever terms of agreement GW requires, or again not stock the product. I'm not a fan of GW witholding advanced release information. I guess I just don't see why its such a big deal that they want to deny independent retailers a week or two head start in taking preorders that might otherwise just order from the GW website or in a GW store. Afterall anyone who wants to buy online at a discount won't care if they have to wait a few extra days to order and save all that money.
Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner, frankly.
You almost sound like you're defending this decision of theirs Kan. And 'spoiled'? Please...
Chimaera wrote:Ain't got a problem with it. It's GW's train set and they can do what they want with it. While I keep liking the game and it's models I will keep on buying.
It's like people are scared to walk into a GW store these days. If you have to wait a day or two longer for it to hit a local independent so what. Wait and shut up.
The whole GW hate thing is really getting rather boring. If you don't like what they do find another game and associated forum. It really is that simple and means every doesn't have to read constant whinning about some thing or another GW does with their product.
I think you're either mistaking "criticism" for "hate" or a large tub of blancmange for a brain.
My FLGS is fairly pissed at GW now, they basically are the largest store in Texas (2nd in the country) about the information blackout. I am sure they will be double pissed that not only can they not tell the casual player what is coming out next month but will also get their packages late.
Chimaera wrote:Ain't got a problem with it. It's GW's train set and they can do what they want with it. While I keep liking the game and it's models I will keep on buying.
So do you want a tapioca pudding cup as a prize?
Chimaera wrote:It's like people are scared to walk into a GW store these days. If you have to wait a day or two longer for it to hit a local independent so what. Wait and shut up.
Some of us do not like mixing screaming 13 year old boys or malodorous fatties breathing through their mouth wearing black Slayer t-shirts with a crust of greasy dandruff from their chinbeards if we have the option not to.
Chimaera wrote:The whole GW hate thing is really getting rather boring. If you don't like what they do find another game and associated forum. It really is that simple and means every doesn't have to read constant whinning about some thing or another GW does with their product.
<text redacted; if you disagree with another poster, surely you can convey that without resorting to rudeness and inappropriate imagery --Janthkin>
The fact Dakka remains one of the few places who does not give service to Games Workshop is one of it's few good remaining features.
Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner, frankly.
You almost sound like you're defending this decision of theirs Kan.
Yes. I'm completely defending this decision.
Or, more likely than not, you're reading my statement with a perception that no matter what I defend their decisions. It turns a matter of fact statement into "OMG WHITE KNIGHTING!", which it is not.
And 'spoiled'? Please...
Dread Fleet, Ogre Kingdoms, and Necrons off the top of my head.
I know, I know. "We should be getting information from GW themselves more than a week ahead of time!"--which is something I do agree with, frankly. However, GW for some reason does not want that done. That's what they want, for whatever reason, and they've come to an idea that it's easier for them to clamp down on outside distributors than it is to do some massive coordinated worldwide launch.
Although, come to think of it...it would also alter the dynamics of some of the proposals that were put forward for UK->Oceanic sales too.
From the look of things GW is making the direct to store push that effectively cuts out the distributors.
Of course those FLGS that prefer to not to pay the $3500 start up cost for carrying the GW set up or prefer to not dedicate the 32sqft of space required will just have to wait.
It makes perfect sense to punish 90% of your ground sales in the largest market you sell in because some Polish people did something that was immensely popular with your customers that you refused to do for some unknown reason.
BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Bingo.
This is an attempt to get those stores who use other distributors than GW for GW products to come back to them, pure and simple.
And from what I hear, GW is hell to use as a distributor.
You have to remember this only impacts stores that get their GW product from distributors like ACD or Alliance. Most FLGS get their product directly from GW (and have for the past 15+ years) so this doesn't impact them at all. It does suck for stores that use the distributors, but if you are a store that relies on GW for any decent chunk of your sales, you are dealing with GW Trade Sales and this will not impact you in the least.
Dread Fleet, Ogre Kingdoms, and Necrons off the top of my head.
I think it's the "spoiled," with the inherent negative connotations, that's at question here. I'll give you "leaked," but is there some evidence that those releases were damaged by the unofficial early disclosure?
Platuan4th wrote:
This is an attempt to get those stores who use other distributors than GW for GW products to come back to them, pure and simple.
Pretty much this. Either way, I didn't realize my countrymen were the source of all the recent "leaks" (can you call it a true leak if its only a week or two before the official reveal??). Go Poland!
Dread Fleet, Ogre Kingdoms, and Necrons off the top of my head.
I think it's the "spoiled," with the inherent negative connotations, that's at question here. I'll give you "leaked," but is there some evidence that those releases were damaged by the unofficial early disclosure?
I use 'spoil' and 'leak' interchangeably so there might be a contextual snafu going on here.
I can't say whether they were necessarily 'damaged' by the early disclosure--but it does kill the buzz and hype that Games Workshop themselves plan. Look at the reaction we had here on Dakka when GW put up their 'teaser' video on Monday. It was nothing but complaining that "why don't they just hurry up and show us the <insert whatever expletive you want here> models?!" or "stupid GW, we know this hurry up and put them up for preorder!".
I don't think that's very conducive to making GW want to make it easy for places to potentially leak information, do you?
nkelsch wrote:Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it.
No one's mentioned anything about retailers breaking street (and manufacturers have ways of punishing stores that do...). The only thing that anyone's brought up are some stores in Poland that apparently committed the horrible crime of informing their customers when product was going to be released.
nkelsch wrote:Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it.
No one's mentioned anything about retailers breaking street (and manufacturers have ways of punishing stores that do...). The only thing that anyone's brought up are some stores in Poland that apparently committed the horrible crime of informing their customers when product was going to be released.
Uh yeah. More like one of these store had a customer who worked for the publishing company which did White Dwarf, and camera phoned it up.
nkelsch wrote:Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it.
No one's mentioned anything about retailers breaking street (and manufacturers have ways of punishing stores that do...). The only thing that anyone's brought up are some stores in Poland that apparently committed the horrible crime of informing their customers when product was going to be released.
Uh yeah. More like one of these store had a customer who worked for the publishing company which did White Dwarf, and camera phoned it up.
How is something like that going to be affected by GW's new rule regarding distributors?
Dread Fleet, Ogre Kingdoms, and Necrons off the top of my head.
I think it's the "spoiled," with the inherent negative connotations, that's at question here. I'll give you "leaked," but is there some evidence that those releases were damaged by the unofficial early disclosure?
I use 'spoil' and 'leak' interchangeably so there might be a contextual snafu going on here.
Well, there you go then. For me, substituting "leaked" into your original post changes the tone significantly.
I can't say whether they were necessarily 'damaged' by the early disclosure--but it does kill the buzz and hype that Games Workshop themselves plan. Look at the reaction we had here on Dakka when GW put up their 'teaser' video on Monday. It was nothing but complaining that "why don't they just hurry up and show us the <insert whatever expletive you want here> models?!" or "stupid GW, we know this hurry up and put them up for preorder!".
I don't think that's very conducive to making GW want to make it easy for places to potentially leak information, do you?
Personally, I don't think my response would have changed - I find teasers uniformly annoying, and have ever since Lucas destroyed the Star Wars brand. In this context, and paired with the current silence policy, I can fully understand people's frustrations with teasers - it doesn't come off as "we're building buzz," it comes off as "we could tell you, but we're not going to."
The real problem here isn't the clamp down on leaks, it's screwing over the independent retailers by delaying them getting stock and effectively holding a monopoly on the stock for a few days.
Undoubtedly those first few days count because there are a lot of people who can't wait and have to buy as soon as possible. GW therefore deny the independents this part of the market and have it exclusively as their own.
Really that's very very poor form. The independents are being treated as competitors - not supporting retailers of their product. They apparently see independents as a necessary evil because they can't have stores everywhere particularly in the US, but they'll gladly hinder these stores and take their customers. A lot of game stores run on a tight budget and need the custom from the latest releases so to treat them like this is dreadful.
Howard A Treesong wrote:The real problem here isn't the clamp down on leaks, it's screwing over the independent retailers by delaying them getting stock and effectively holding a monopoly on the stock for a few days.
Undoubtedly those first few days count because there are a lot of people who can't wait and have to buy as soon as possible. GW therefore deny the independents this part of the market and have it exclusively as their own.
Really that's very very poor form. The independents are being treated as competitors - not supporting retailers of their product. They apparently see independents as a necessary evil because they can't have stores everywhere particularly in the US, but they'll gladly hinder these stores and take their customers. A lot of game stores run on a tight budget and need the custom from the latest releases so to treat them like this is dreadful.
Read it again Howard, I had to. It's the distributors they're going after, not the independent retailers directly.
Independents who stock via distributors which aren't Games Workshop though are going to be affected.
It's not about White Knighting Kan, it's just another in a long line of brainless business decisions by the folks at GW that once again you're lining up to defend.
Look at this from a store's perspective. Now they get their products after the release date, because their distributors cannot get them their products any earlier. That's an ass-backwards way of having a commercial relationship with distribution partners and the stores that push your products.
I get that GW has their own retail network as well, but they don't have to be complete fethers about it.
Howard A Treesong wrote:The real problem here isn't the clamp down on leaks, it's screwing over the independent retailers by delaying them getting stock and effectively holding a monopoly on the stock for a few days.
Undoubtedly those first few days count because there are a lot of people who can't wait and have to buy as soon as possible. GW therefore deny the independents this part of the market and have it exclusively as their own.
Really that's very very poor form. The independents are being treated as competitors - not supporting retailers of their product. They apparently see independents as a necessary evil because they can't have stores everywhere particularly in the US, but they'll gladly hinder these stores and take their customers. A lot of game stores run on a tight budget and need the custom from the latest releases so to treat them like this is dreadful.
Read it again Howard, I had to. It's the distributors they're going after, not the independent retailers directly.
Independents who stock via distributors which aren't Games Workshop though are going to be affected.
That's exactly my point. By going after the distributors they hit the independents being supplied by them. So GW are responsible.
Once again, I'm not defending it. I'm simply stating what it is.
If I were defending it, I would be saying very different things. You automatically infer that just because I'm not shouting from the rooftops that it's the stupidest thing ever that I agree with it.
And quite frankly, there's no real other way for them to do anything to cut distributors out of the picture.
So what you're saying is...... I can get my GW product on the release date in a GW store, which is nowhere near me, for full retail, or I can wait an extra 3-5 days and get it at 25% off retail sent to my doorstep or off the shelf of the FLGS?
Grimstonefire wrote:Logically from their perspective they want:
> as many people in their stores as possible.
> as many paying full retail price as possible
So it doesn't surprise me as it's common sense really.
How far in advance were/ are they selling them these days anyway?
then maybe they should open a F*cking store in my state...
Kanluwen wrote:And quite frankly, there's no real other way for them to do anything to cut distributors out of the picture.
So?
This is why people are saying you're defending them, you honestly don't see a problem with them attempting to screw over other distributors and thus the stores that they supply.
Platuan4th wrote:This is why people are saying you're defending them, you honestly don't see a problem with them attempting to screw over other distributors and thus the stores that they supply.
There's a difference between agreeing with a decision and understanding the reasoning behind it.
In this case, GW have chosen a specific business plan. Distributors and retailers cause a potential issue with that plan... so GW have the option of either changing their plan, or changing how they deal with distributors and retailers.
In this case, they have chosen the latter, which shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone given their other recent policy decisions. It doesn't make it any more ridiculous... But it is an understandable decision based on their recent business direction.
Kanluwen wrote:Why should I see a problem with them screwing over distributors?
Really. I'd like to know why.
Because it does over independent stores being supplied by them. Something which I think people should care about.
Maybe you don't get it being in the US, but there are not many independent stores in the UK and rather a lots of GW stores and the industry is the poorer for it. Look after your independent stores because you'll miss them when they are gone.
nkelsch wrote:Where's the beef? Lots of things have street dates which means everyone gets them at the same time. Not sure that there is a problem with a product maker controlling the releases. It doesn't strike me as something that is bad for me, the customer.
Especially if people are frequently breaking street dates I can see why they would do it. I would want to hear from store owners like mikhaila and have them tell us what the policy actually is and how it actually impacts indy stores before I get my torch and pitchfork for another GW internet lynch mob.
The retailers always obtain the product beforehand though, so they can actually bloody sell it on the day.
If this is true, stores won't get ithe stuff at all until day of release and probably won't be able to sell it until a few days after because of the setup required.
Does that make it easier to understand? It's living hell for shop owners stocking GW product currently because they both have no news on releases, so can't take orders to stock up and now apparentlly they won't get the product regardless until the day of release.
I get they want people in their stores of the day, but this is the wrong way to do it. Offer some incentives to go into store, like prizes or competitions
To be fair, most independents get their GW stuff directly from GW, with no change happening. GW is just fighting the non-GW distribution chain. Fighting the distribution of your products sounds dumb in most cases, but fits GW's mentality. But then again, in most cases being treated like a customer doesn't sound like a threat as with GW ... and raising interest in your new products 2 weeks before release is not considered treason or spoiling
If you're not selling enough to go directly through GW then you're not going to miss things coming in a few days later than normal. It's really that simple. Any retailer that is concerned about his bottom line and sells enough already would be going through GW because that 3-5% that distributors take off the retail price adds up.
Kanluwen wrote:Why should I see a problem with them screwing over distributors?
Really. I'd like to know why.
Just spent about 20 minutes trying to word it and not sound extremely crass, so I'll sum up:
It screws stores that don't deal directly with GW.
And for the people saying the people that don't deal with GW directly aren't selling enough to make a difference, that's not always true.
From what I've been told by multiple store owners, GW is hell to deal with directly, to the point that some stores have considered dropping GW products entirely if they weren't able to use another distributor(which, yes, I'm sure is exaggeration and hyperbole). For areas that have multiple stores, they are now essentially forced to deal directly with GW if they wish to be able compete for sales on release day.
Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner, frankly.
You almost sound like you're defending this decision of theirs Kan.
Yes. I'm completely defending this decision.
Kanluwen wrote:Once again, I'm not defending it. I'm simply stating what it is.
If I were defending it, I would be saying very different things. You automatically infer that just because I'm not shouting from the rooftops that it's the stupidest thing ever that I agree with it.
And quite frankly, there's no real other way for them to do anything to cut distributors out of the picture.
Doubletalk much? I don't want to start up again about their whole information blackout policy but it only hurts everyone overall.
So in the interest of discussing this further. How would you handle this situation?
Get rid of the policy? Hunt down the offenders and have them fired? At the end of the day i don't see how any of this helps GW as a company.
If your major stores have no idea whats coming out whats to prevent them from taking pre-orders and stocking incredibly bad choices?
Sure bob I'll take 5 boxes of pyrovores, those are awesome right?
For the last year or so every policy shift that's come down as been heavy handed very little communication beyond the same back channel stuff we see from day to day. Every release someone finds a way to leak something despite their changes, when are they going to get the picture?
I have no clue why you believe that independent shops have no idea what's coming out.
As for how to handle the situation? I've got no real 'good' ideas, at least none that anyone here is going to think is worth implementing.
Nobody wants any kind of these plans to be implemented, where secrecy is still a key part. But if it were me...
1: An approximate release schedule is unveiled at the beginning of each year.
2: As the release date gets nearer, things are finessed further until two weeks prior when a solid date is finally put down alongside of prices.
For a third part, this one is going to be a US centric one. Allow for orders to be made via the US webstore and be shipped to your local independent to be picked up.
Guys, let's not turn this thread into a back and forth between 2 people please, lol, for your own sakes I wouldn't deperately try to get each other to admit one of you is wrong lol! Both have stated positions, and frankly, I think both are subjectively valid, it is simply a matter of whether or not you perceive an FLGS as an integral part of your personal gaming experience, or GW as your sole outlet.
There are justifications for both decisions like it or not, although I personally feel it is a bad move, it is one that serves to enforce a policy they have always been trying very hard to put in place... complete control over information distribution and no advance notice. I hate that policy, but this move is in furtherance of their goals. I don't have to like it for it to make 'sense' in terms of their stated intent.
BrassScorpion wrote:Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.
As Insaniak says, this is completely in line with the company's previous policies over the last 12 months, so I don't know why anyone is surprised by it.
I don't think there is any argument to be made at all that this is anything other than a bad thing for the customer, who will now have slightly less options on release day. The only thing in its defence (in that it won't probably matter that much) is that a lot of casual customers probably won't even know a release is coming at all, and so by the time they realise it will most likely be in the other independents and available at the lower price range!
But, in the context of customer-service related gaffs in 2011, an analogy of this would be a soft slap round the side of the head, compared to the repeated shoeings we received earlier this year.
I think this is more absurd to those of us that don't live anywhere near a GW store, but really, are we going to die if we have to wait a couple of weeks to get the new models? At least it gives you time to let the local know that you want them to order some of the new kits for you, since you didn't even know the freaking things existed aside from a few leaked pictures on the internet.
Surprised? God no, that just makes it about 100 times worse. That such plain idiotic moves are actually expected from an international company like GW is mindbogglingly stupid.
Munga wrote:I think this is more absurd to those of us that don't live anywhere near a GW store, but really, are we going to die if we have to wait a couple of weeks to get the new models? At least it gives you time to let the local know that you want them to order some of the new kits for you, since you didn't even know the freaking things existed aside from a few leaked pictures on the internet.
You are aware that just because you do not live near a GW store does not necessarily mean that you will not be able to get things on release day, right?
This only affects shops which are not using Games Workshop as their distributor. They have to wait for their distributor to get things in stock.
WARNING: SPECULATION AHEAD:
In all likelihood, from the way this reads it is that GW is not going to start supplying or taking orders from independent distributors until the street date.
This really doesn't affect me at all as my only local store option is a GW store and even if I chose to order from someone like The Warstore, I'm probably not going to jump on something at release.
I have plenty of stuff to work on. I'm not even bothering with Necrons. At all. Probably ever. And I like those models.
This is not just a GW problem it's an issue we have with how Boards and CEO's are compensated. The only thing they care about is the stock price in the next quarter not the long term solvency of the company since they will just sell there shares and make there money that way. I ton of companies do this and it sucks.
GW really thinks that if we know what is coming out we wont buy something that month leading up to it and that may damage sales for that quarter lowering the stock price.
I think this is a gross misjudgement on the customer base. If you play 40k and own say 2 armies and they are mostly fleshed out you will only buy a mini here or there or buy some paint. You will just show up to a GW to play that's it.
If you know ahead of time that a new army is coming out that you want to start are you really not going to buy that model for the new list you want to run? We all know the answer to that and it's no. You are going to buy that mini because you still have to wait a month to get the other stuff and then you have to build and paint it.
I think they are really wrong about this and so do most other companies in the industry because most of them don't do what GW is doing.
Ah, throw in a few "stock shortages" on new releases for retailers "but check the GW stores!!!".
Not sure why they have such a hate-on for their "partners" these days, guess they figure they are getting too big a piece of the pie (Mmmm pie...)
They want to be smart about all this? Get small warehouses, set aside large gaming areas, run out of the place as an internet distribution center that happens to sell product on site as well. Get <insert popular coffee shop here> to attach to the facility and have free wireless internet available. You have built in room for expansion or failing that open up more "gaming space". You will even have a loading dock so there is room for those Apocalypse tables!!!
I used to be in the biz when GW first went direct. GW treated stores and distributors the same, at the same time they stopped posting release schedules months out in advance. I think this was in 95 or so. The reason behind not posting release schedules was so stores didn't plan around releases (so I was told by the sales rep). Minimum orders were $250 or $500 and that could make it hard on a small store to order $500 a week. The other down side was customer reps would call their best customers first and sometimes your order would not go out same day if you were too far down the list.
Now much like before if a distributor has to order and have it shipped, received, inventory, repack and ship again valuable days will be lost. If a store orders directly they will have the product sooner.
Let’s look at monies. As I mentioned stores can get product sooner through GeeDub and most will if they can meet the minimum order. If GW gives everyone 45% off retail as opposed to giving a better discount to distributors they will make more by driving traffic to themselves. Also they will gain valuable market research as to where to open new stores.
And this matters why? Indies still get it at the same time, like they are meant to.
And in all honesty, what Indy in their right mind would go through a distributor to get GW product at a lower profit margin when they can just go direct to GW. If the start up cost was too much, you have bigger problems.
BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Bingo.
This is an attempt to get those stores who use other distributors than GW for GW products to come back to them, pure and simple.
And from what I hear, GW is hell to use as a distributor.
Just my opinion, but you are hearing wrong. I've placed orders on Mondays and Wednesdays with GW for a couple of decades. I get product into my store like clockwork at the end of the week. I get my 150.00 a month in free product for tournaments just by asking, free racks just by asking. Can special order anything they have on their website with one email. I never pay shipping charges. They are actually very easy to deal with.
The problem for some stores is one of volume. If they carry the bare minimum, and don't take advantage of the stockist program, then they are going to pay shipping, and not get the support other retailers do. It's sort of silly to complain about, because it's how the industry works. If you don't jump through all of WOTC's hoops you don't get to run events. If you don't order 400-500 each order from distributors, you pay shipping. Stores that order a little bit pay more than stores with high volume. These are standard business practices.
But somehow they aren't acceptable coming from GW, but are coming from Alliance, ACD, WOTC, and other distributors.
On the original topic: Not in favor of the policy, although it doesn't affect me one damn bit.
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Kanluwen wrote:
Munga wrote:I think this is more absurd to those of us that don't live anywhere near a GW store, but really, are we going to die if we have to wait a couple of weeks to get the new models? At least it gives you time to let the local know that you want them to order some of the new kits for you, since you didn't even know the freaking things existed aside from a few leaked pictures on the internet.
You are aware that just because you do not live near a GW store does not necessarily mean that you will not be able to get things on release day, right?
This only affects shops which are not using Games Workshop as their distributor. They have to wait for their distributor to get things in stock.
WARNING: SPECULATION AHEAD:
In all likelihood, from the way this reads it is that GW is not going to start supplying or taking orders from independent distributors until the street date.
Not quite. ACD or Alliance will place their orders on Monday, same time as I do, and recieve them by Friday, same as I do. The difference being my customers will get access to the product that weekend, and someone ordering through a distributor won't get their product until Mon/Tue/Wed of the following week.
Just my opinion, but you are hearing wrong. I've placed orders on Mondays and Wednesdays with GW for a couple of decades. I get product into my store like clockwork at the end of the week. I get my 150.00 a month in free product for tournaments just by asking, free racks just by asking. Can special order anything they have on their website with one email. I never pay shipping charges. They are actually very easy to deal with.
The problem for some stores is one of volume. If they carry the bare minimum, and don't take advantage of the stockist program, then they are going to pay shipping, and not get the support other retailers do. It's sort of silly to complain about, because it's how the industry works. If you don't jump through all of WOTC's hoops you don't get to run events. If you don't order 400-500 each order from distributors, you pay shipping. Stores that order a little bit pay more than stores with high volume. These are standard business practices.
But somehow they aren't acceptable coming from GW, but are coming from Alliance, ACD, WOTC, and other distributors.
On the original topic: Not in favor of the policy, although it doesn't affect me one damn bit.
This, here.
Of all the companies at I deal with, GW is the EASIEST and most PLEASANT to deal with. WoTC is a nightmare, and my distributors all have stipulations that can be annoying. As Mikhaila said, you need to take advantage of what they offer youm awesome price support, great customer service, and the partnership program is quite good
If stores order their items direct from GW, they wont have delays. This is GW selling to the distributors. It will encourage stores to set up an account with GW. If you are already direct, it wont even matter.
I have been dealing with them for almost two years and I feel they are a great company. Great customer service, free shipping, prize support. What more can I ask for?
ironicsilence wrote:Wont be long before FLGS get new releases a week or two after the GW stores start selling them
Nope. Vertically integrated company, makes them a bit vulnerable to treating direct accounts that badly. But mostly, it would lose GW money. Trade Sales, in the US at least, is quite profitable. Killing off their US market wouldn't help them in any way.
Would some one explain to me why GW is not releasing advance info on their advance releases?
I don't understand what GW is worried about.
Is GW worried that a codex will leak a couple of months in advance, and a company like Chapter House will read it and figure out what models GW isn't releasing in the same wave as the codex and a 3rd party will make those models or bitz?
Is GW worried that PP or FoW will copy them?
Or does GW think that if I buy $115 of Dread Fleet I won't spend $115 on Necrons?
Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner, frankly.
And the proof is where that Distributors are the ones that spoiled the release?
mikhaila wrote:Just my opinion, but you are hearing wrong. I've placed orders on Mondays and Wednesdays with GW for a couple of decades. I get product into my store like clockwork at the end of the week. I get my 150.00 a month in free product for tournaments just by asking, free racks just by asking. Can special order anything they have on their website with one email. I never pay shipping charges. They are actually very easy to deal with.
Aren't you lucky. You could be Maelstrom Games, a massive store that's a stone's throw away from GWHQ, yet is only allowed to order restock's once a week, has things delayed and held back, and generally has to jump through several hoops just to get new stock. And they're both in Nottingham!!!
Janthkin wrote:Personally, I don't think my response would have changed - I find teasers uniformly annoying, and have ever since Lucas destroyed the Star Wars brand. In this context, and paired with the current silence policy, I can fully understand people's frustrations with teasers - it doesn't come off as "we're building buzz," it comes off as "we could tell you, but we're not going to."
Same. There's a product I'm waiting for from another company that hasn't been "spoiled" at all, and I still find it annoying when they play coy about it.
Do you know what happens when GW's policy is successful?
The Nids and Beasts releases.
"Hu? What? There is a new book? And new models? I didn't notice that." Honestly, without the outcries and whine of the Nid players, that release could have gone unnoticed for months.
And looking at GK, Orcs and Tomb Kings... the "buzz" was nonexistant.
At this point, there are only two possibilities:
The guys they hired for making the PR and advertisments are completely incompetent.
or
The guys in charge are completely incompetent, making the job for the PR guys nigh impossible.
I know what's more likely...
Anyway, this decision was made to herd more people into their own stures.
Ineffectively. Now I have the choice between
-Getting it possibly on relase day, paying full price
-Getting it later, with a small discount and the knowledge that I supported an Indie
-Getting it later with a huge discount
I'll take the huge discount, thank you. They act as if they don't need independants and try to exterminate a pest, but in fact they just keep chopping at their own legs...
MDizzle wrote:This is not just a GW problem it's an issue we have with how Boards and CEO's are compensated. The only thing they care about is the stock price in the next quarter not the long term solvency of the company since they will just sell there shares and make there money that way. I ton of companies do this and it sucks.
GW really thinks that if we know what is coming out we wont buy something that month leading up to it and that may damage sales for that quarter lowering the stock price.
I think this is a gross misjudgement on the customer base. If you play 40k and own say 2 armies and they are mostly fleshed out you will only buy a mini here or there or buy some paint. You will just show up to a GW to play that's it.
If you know ahead of time that a new army is coming out that you want to start are you really not going to buy that model for the new list you want to run? We all know the answer to that and it's no. You are going to buy that mini because you still have to wait a month to get the other stuff and then you have to build and paint it.
I think they are really wrong about this and so do most other companies in the industry because most of them don't do what GW is doing.
Or look at it another way, it gives people time to save a bit and make that quarter stupidly profitable. Starting to save for any new eldar releases now for example is a thought I have had, breaking my "Don't care about buying more GW" stuff rule. Of course, this would not be at full retail price, and if discoubnted prices in 2012 are the retail prices this year GW have priced e out totally and mantic can have my custom.
The problem is, that they don't believe in saving, since they don't believe in retaining customers. By the time a spoilered release runs around, most of their target customers are already gone...
I am fully behind this move and other Games Workshop has made this year.
There is a lot up in the air with this thread. I think the main thing driving the Secrecy of GW releases is that you will find customers who will hear something is coming out and stop spending, sometimes for months, but will continue to come into my store and use my tables, use my time but not support my store until that release. Since the change in information I find that customers spend continuously and do not really worry about what is coming out next.
Next every well run store should be able to meet any requirement set to order from GW directly. GW's own stores with one employee will make anywhere from 150k to 250k a year on their own products alone every year. It just requires that you take the time to recruit new players and keep your customer base from becoming a club house. Now add in products like Magic, Warmachine, Hordes, flames of wars and etc. You should be able to grow in the correct direction. But in the end stores that can't make GW products work just don't know how to sell it or are unwilling to do what needs to be done.
Things that hurt independents more is discount retailers. The rely on volume because if you look at the basic accounting fundamentals a store down the street discounts product 20% has to sell 40% more to equal what I sell. Remember the saying work smarter not harder.
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
I am fully behind this move and other Games Workshop has made this year.
Me too. ( well as in an understanding kind of way, but certainly dislike it from customer point of view )
There is a lot up in the air with this thread. I think the main thing driving the Secrecy of GW releases is that you will find customers who will hear something is coming out and stop spending, sometimes for months, but will continue to come into my store and use my tables, use my time but not support my store until that release. Since the change in information I find that customers spend continuously and do not really worry about what is coming out next.
Impulse buys are indeed powerful. The less time a customer have to plan and and gauge their purchase, the higher the possibility of them getting both.
Things that hurt independents more is discount retailers. The rely on volume because if you look at the basic accounting fundamentals a store down the street discounts product 20% has to sell 40% more to equal what I sell. Remember the saying work smarter not harder.
Though im sure it works for them easily as well. They arnt bound by location.
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
Now thats not fair. I remember there is a discussing about GW claiming lots of the kits, and their pricing are to test water of what customer likes, and what they are willing to pay.
I'd like to think the price hikes have reached the ceiling, and so far we have seen the recent kit's pricing being reasonable.
I think for the people that are worried about been able to afford or not, might get a 2nd chance to look at warhammer again.
Also warmachine is still cheaper, been able to expand infinity is irrelevant compared to whats the core amount needed to play.
Caddery wrote:I am fully behind this move and other Games Workshop has made this year.
There is a lot up in the air with this thread. I think the main thing driving the Secrecy of GW releases is that you will find customers who will hear something is coming out and stop spending, sometimes for months, but will continue to come into my store and use my tables, use my time but not support my store until that release. Since the change in information I find that customers spend continuously and do not really worry about what is coming out next.
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
Thats so interesting, you seem to be interested in the style of customer that doesn't uses his brain cells and plans or saves ahead... no wonder you like GW actions of late... Good luck for you with that, I really hope that for each customer that doesn't buy every week but saves money and buys full armies in one go each couple months that you kick out of the door is replaced by people who buy a blister every week The guys that don't have money should just gtfo of my store and find anew hobby ehehehe good for you... you should put a paper on the store saying " only the filthy rich that don't have the habit to save money are welcomed"
Edit: Here's a question for you if a customer buys you a full nid army and paints and all hobby stuff to complete the army in your store and after that he has no intention to buy other armies is he not welcome to play in your tables? I mean GW only updates nids each 4 years so...
GW policy and products are aiming more and more to just one big sale start up and not catering for the slow burn customer or people who already have the armies they want completed, its OK but its costing them sales numbers every year... I wonder if thats the style of customer you wish because if thats the case you dont need more than 1 demo table instore.
Hulksmash wrote:If you're not selling enough to go directly through GW then you're not going to miss things coming in a few days later than normal. It's really that simple.
LunaHound wrote:
Also warmachine is still cheaper, been able to expand infinity is irrelevant compared to whats the core amount needed to play.
Yup! You spend a couple hundred and your good to go in warmachine, if people don't stop there its their choice really... how much hundreds you need to have a complete and finished wfb, 40k army? More! So the only conclusion is that warmachine is more collectable.
Caddery wrote:I am fully behind this move and other Games Workshop has made this year.
et cetera..
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
No idea if you're actually a store owner or a sock puppet, but what a lovely attitude you have towards your customers. Care to share your shop details?
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't you lucky. You could be Maelstrom Games, a massive store that's a stone's throw away from GWHQ ... . And they're both in Nottingham!!!
You've just described why Maelstrom gets a hard time. They are direct retail competition to GW. And they discount.
Yeah but the GWHQ/Warhammer World isn't really just a 'bigger store'. It's their head office. The presence of a store onsite is incidental, not central to the building's operation or purpose. It's not a store that also happens to have a museum and the design studio. It's a corporate building that happens to have a store.
BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Bingo.
This is an attempt to get those stores who use other distributors than GW for GW products to come back to them, pure and simple.
And from what I hear, GW is hell to use as a distributor.
Just my opinion, but you are hearing wrong. I've placed orders on Mondays and Wednesdays with GW for a couple of decades. I get product into my store like clockwork at the end of the week. I get my 150.00 a month in free product for tournaments just by asking, free racks just by asking. Can special order anything they have on their website with one email. I never pay shipping charges. They are actually very easy to deal with.
As I said, it's what I've heard. It could be personal bugbears against requirements on things that they have to order, it could be lingering resentment towards something that GW's done or how they operated in the past, it could be a personal despising of GW as a company or their products, I don't know, I'm not the store owners who've said it.
My guess is that GWs obsession with secrecy is not based on stupid marketing. My guess is a company that "borrowed" so much of its intellectual property, and then sued everyone who tried to do the same, is worried about copyright infingement. If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.
Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.
They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.
Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.
They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.
That argument is fundamentally flawed.
Not really, flawed. My company was recently part of a lawsuit regarding patent infingement. Company A was selling a product we had developed and licensed to them. They were supposed to be paying us royalties. They made a minor change to the process and claimed it was a different product. Long story short, after a lengthy lawsuit and a ton of lawyer costs, the court decided that the company would pay us one lump sum payment, and then never have to pay another dime, yet could still sell the product.
I imagine a similar situation could arise regarding little plastic models.
Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.
They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.
That argument is fundamentally flawed.
Not really, flawed. My company was recently part of a lawsuit regarding patent infingement. Company A was selling a product we had developed and licensed to them. They were supposed to be paying us royalties. They made a minor change to the process and claimed it was a different product. Long story short, after a lengthy lawsuit and a ton of lawyer costs, the court decided that the company would pay us one lump sum payment, and then never have to pay another dime, yet could still sell the product.
I imagine a similar situation could arise regarding little plastic models.
That not quite(or at all) like what you posted regarding GW.
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining.
Good grief Charlie Brown how often do we have to hear this posh tosh regurgitated?
Take a leaf out those well off Dakka members who spend fortunes on their GW hobby without having such a condescending attitude please.
Trouble is GW seeing the distributors as competition because there is no seperation between their manufacturing and retail arms.
Mango wrote: If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.
They could try that, but GW could just as easily prove that they designed and made the model first. If there's a picture of a model to be leaked, there's documentation as to WHEN that picture originated.
That argument is fundamentally flawed.
Not really, flawed. My company was recently part of a lawsuit regarding patent infingement. Company A was selling a product we had developed and licensed to them. They were supposed to be paying us royalties. They made a minor change to the process and claimed it was a different product. Long story short, after a lengthy lawsuit and a ton of lawyer costs, the court decided that the company would pay us one lump sum payment, and then never have to pay another dime, yet could still sell the product.
I imagine a similar situation could arise regarding little plastic models.
You're allowed to do that with patents, that's why they are public documents - to encourage innovation. If you make a significant improvement on the original patent then you can supersede the patent owners' rights. Though it is open to abuse as some people will copy the item and then do something minor like paint it red and claim "red wunz go faster" so they don't need to pay you.
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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining.
Good grief Charlie Brown how often do we have to hear this posh tosh regurgitated?
Take a leaf out those well off Dakka members who spend fortunes on their GW hobby without having such a condescending attitude please.
yeah apparently it doesn't matter if you've been in the hobby 20 years. You should take any old gak the company shovel at you and be happy or just clear off.
The city I'm living in now, I lived in about 13 years ago. I lived here about 4 years ago. And I've visited off and on in those intervening times.
There is an FLGS in this town. They are the store that got me into Warhammer 13 years ago. They are where I bought my 2nd edition starter set. They are where I bought my first paints. They are where I entered my first miniature painting contest. They have always been huge flag-carriers for GW products. When I lived here 13 years ago, their main products were board games, pen and paper RPGs, and GW. Basically the only other miniatures they had were Reaper models for use in RPG, there were no other wargaming miniatures.
When I lived here 4 years ago, the RPGcraze had died down a bit. But GW was still there. They had an even bigger selection of GW stuff, board games, and those collectible D&D prepaints.
In May I came here to scout for housing. They still had tons of GW stuff. The only other miniatures they had were a single rack of Warmachine things.
This fall I visited the shop, and their GW selection seems to have some competition. Suddenly rival company hobby products (like Gale Force 9) have a significant presence. Reaper paints have their own rack. And Warmachine, Malifaux, and Infinity have their own sections.
Now, I wonder what could have happened to make them suddenly re-align the products they carry after years of strong GW support?
I'm not saying this latest move will cause them to hasten their move away from GW, but I can guarantee it won't bring them back to the good ole' days when GW was the only game in town.
And I'm not telling GW how to do their job, but there is no other miniature store in town and no GW store for miles and miles. If I were them, I wouldn't alienate the people who helped me make money.
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
There is the possibility that there are among us--gamers that can comfortably afford Games Workshop product but choose not to, as they disagree with their business practices. In my experience, those that are most vocal regarding 40k--be it critical or defensive--are the ones that tend to care the most about the company/universe. It certainly isn't a waste of energy complaining--and the only time it would be a waste--is if you continued to purchase as much as you generally do.
Which is something I do see often. People will state "Well, I disagree with what they are doing so I'll just spend my normal gaming budget and not a penny more". Well....yeah that's what they would hope that you do...get less product for the same amount of cash...
Also, while not a thread for the discussion, I would politely disagree with WM being as expensive as 40k. If you are an avid collector, yes you will likely purchase multiple armies and spend the same amount of money as you did previously with Games Workshop. But for those "I'm going to buy a SW army like XYZ and play it for the next 2 years in tournaments"--WM is much cheaper to start.
Mango wrote:My guess is that GWs obsession with secrecy is not based on stupid marketing. My guess is a company that "borrowed" so much of its intellectual property, and then sued everyone who tried to do the same, is worried about copyright infingement. If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.
I would love to see you get a comparable model line sculpted and produced in anything less than six months to a year from "leaked" material. And even if you were somehow able to get everything done in a week and out into stores, the GW artwork and models still pre-dated your own meaning you still don't have the IP on them if they are blatent copies of the GW models.
I have still not seen how this is a bad thing. If you want to have your products for the street date, then use GW as your distributor.
Other companies do this... most of the comments here are the same old 'GEEDUB SUCKS! THIS IS STUPID'
Customers want the plastic crack... and if a FLGS is unwilling to buy from GW directly then the customers will go elsewhere if they wish to get street date releases. If the FLGS wants to have releases then order from GW... or have customers who understand they have to wait for their 25% discount.
Doesn't hurt me, so I don't really care. My Stores deal with GW directly so doesn't hurt the owners I buy from. Not sure I care about stores who don't order from GW, they have an option if it is a real issue.
It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.
Mango wrote:My guess is that GWs obsession with secrecy is not based on stupid marketing. My guess is a company that "borrowed" so much of its intellectual property, and then sued everyone who tried to do the same, is worried about copyright infingement. If a picture of a model is leaked, a smaller company could get a similar model to market first, and then sue GW for copyright violations, and get royalties from the sales of the models.
I would love to see you get a comparable model line sculpted and produced in anything less than six months to a year from "leaked" material. And even if you were somehow able to get everything done in a week and out into stores, the GW artwork and models still pre-dated your own meaning you still don't have the IP on them if they are blatent copies of the GW models.
We are now entering copyright law that covers Derivative work, which is covered on other topics at this site.
aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.
Pretty much I've been saying for several months now.
aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.
Do they though? Or do distributors and retailers get the same discount from Games Workshop?
I ask, as before when our group checked into purchasing from distributors--the markup was generally 5-10% above buying straight from Games Workshop, which led me to believe they were afforded the same initial discount.
BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Indeed.
Also, Kan, they didn't "spoil" anything. They helped build up hype, something the company sucks ass at.
aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.
Do they though? Or do distributors and retailers get the same discount from Games Workshop?
I ask, as before when our group checked into purchasing from distributors--the markup was generally 5-10% above buying straight from Games Workshop, which led me to believe they were afforded the same initial discount.
Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.
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Melissia wrote:
BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Indeed.
Also, Kan, they didn't "spoil" anything. They helped build up hype, something the company sucks ass at.
Semantics. Spoiled = Spoiler. That we all want the info ahead of time has nothing to do with GW's veiwpoint that the information was leaked out.
Adam LongWalker wrote:We are now entering copyright law that covers Derivative work, which is covered on other topics at this site.
Indeed, though my key point was to address the recurrent idea that you can somehow instantaneously put products onto the market from seeing leaked material. Hell, we have codexes still lacking models from either GWor 3rd party companies years after they were released.
Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.
Ahh, ok thanks for the information. So, if Games Workshop's goal as stated by another poster was to cut out distributors (Not saying it is as I haven no idea), would this benefit GW?
I'm under the assumption that the reason retailers use distributors in the first place is due to their inability to afford initial buy in for a GW account. If that was true, how would taking away distribution help GW fiscally--other than the 2% margin (Which I would assume would be grossly off set by the volume the distributor moved)?
Adam LongWalker wrote:@JOHIRA All Indie stores that are out of the sphere of influence of a GW store in my region are doing exactly the same thing as you have posted.
That it's out of the 'sphere of influence of a GW store' is irrelevant, as the majority of indie stores are like that. They react to what their customers want, not stock one single range and tell their customers tough cookies.
An indy store which stocks exclusively stuff from one particular manufacturer, GW or not, is an indy store that's (in my opinion) likely to fail.
Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.
Ahh, ok thanks for the information. So, if Games Workshop's goal as stated by another poster was to cut out distributors (Not saying it is as I haven no idea), would this benefit GW?
I'm under the assumption that the reason retailers use distributors in the first place is due to their inability to afford initial buy in for a GW account. If that was true, how would taking away distribution help GW fiscally--other than the 2% margin (Which I would assume would be grossly off set by the volume the distributor moved)?
Not so much the initial buy in, althought that might be a factor for some, as:
- Ease of ordering. A store can make one phone call for all it's product.
- Ability to order blisters one at a time (when metal was out).
- Able to order a very small amount of GW product, tack it on to a larger order of games, and get free shipping.
- And some stores are so small they have trouble ordering the 400.00 a week in product from a distributor for free shipping, and may need the GW models to bulk up their order.
Caddery wrote:I am fully behind this move and other Games Workshop has made this year.
There is a lot up in the air with this thread. I think the main thing driving the Secrecy of GW releases is that you will find customers who will hear something is coming out and stop spending, sometimes for months, but will continue to come into my store and use my tables, use my time but not support my store until that release. Since the change in information I find that customers spend continuously and do not really worry about what is coming out next.
Next every well run store should be able to meet any requirement set to order from GW directly. GW's own stores with one employee will make anywhere from 150k to 250k a year on their own products alone every year. It just requires that you take the time to recruit new players and keep your customer base from becoming a club house. Now add in products like Magic, Warmachine, Hordes, flames of wars and etc. You should be able to grow in the correct direction. But in the end stores that can't make GW products work just don't know how to sell it or are unwilling to do what needs to be done.
Things that hurt independents more is discount retailers. The rely on volume because if you look at the basic accounting fundamentals a store down the street discounts product 20% has to sell 40% more to equal what I sell. Remember the saying work smarter not harder.
If you can not afford GW product maybe you should find a different hobby and quit wasting your energy complaining. That or you really think War Machine is cheaper..because I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.
Store owner? You should really learn some customer relations and service dude. As for that last part people don't need to be unable to afford stuff to say "whoa hold on a minute, prices here have crossed a line" and have their opinion. Now seeing as with no new sprue developed you get 75% less necrons for your money than a couple of months ago you are saying this is acceptable?
Sneak peeks and talking projects in the pipeline is good for creating excitement imo and if all the changes such as shipping to the southern hemishere is to truely help retailers and not line their own pockets than this had best be a wild rumour as it es all over them.
Meh rant over, just another nail in the coffin I fear for GW, stockpile for when Kirkby sells his shares off...
BrassScorpion wrote:Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.
JOHIRA wrote:This fall I visited the shop, and their GW selection seems to have some competition. Suddenly rival company hobby products (like Gale Force 9) have a significant presence. Reaper paints have their own rack. And Warmachine, Malifaux, and Infinity have their own sections.
Now, I wonder what could have happened to make them suddenly re-align the products they carry after years of strong GW support?
They decided to be a better store?)
Hell, I'm usually all "RAH! RAH! GAMES WORKSHOP!", but I've got a couple of dozen other lines of miniatures, and 5 other lines of paint.
Let's suppose GW did mistreat this store and caused a change. The irony is they are a better store for doing it.
BrassScorpion wrote:Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.
Agreed, they notoriously bullied the stores.
And yet each time they always gave them great intro sets, and support. My flatmate had a shop took in GW stuff, started doing really well with it, them suddenly GW opened up .
BrassScorpion wrote:Return to the "bad old days". In the 1990's GW had a terrible reputation with independent sellers and distributors. They've worked hard the past 10 years to rehabilitate that image. Sounds like they forgot everything they've learned and worked for to go back to policies that alienate a lot of customers and sellers.
Agreed, they notoriously bullied the stores.
And yet each time they always gave them great intro sets, and support. My flatmate had a shop took in GW stuff, started doing really well with it, them suddenly GW opened up .
Same thing happened to a store I know. Apparently GW was great with the service, until they opened their own store near-by. Next thing, orders begin arriving late, they aren't being told about new releases, etc. They eventually dropped GW games altogether, and have only now brought back a little bit of GW items. The store is dominated by FoW and WM/H, however.
Considering Dakka is among the most rampantly pro-GW forums out there, surprisingly seldom.
Once is too much, but given that it will crop up at least once on threads with certain recurring topics, it is too far too frequently spouted.
It is nothing to do with being proi GW. Some of the most vociferous GW supporters on the site don't see the need to say it.
Rather than being told I am too poor to play WH, I am more interested in someone explaining why GW have imposed this ruling and what the consequences might be for customers.
This is a very poor move on GW part. While it solidifies their control over the market for their good it weakens their distribution. GW is hedging its bet that by doing this consumers will migrate to stores that worship at the GW alter... and that stores who presently don't will capitulate by going directly to GW. They're hoping the numbers of those who don't care and the numbers who decide to do other wise aren't that significant. That was GW can continue operating under the pretense "if you don't buy from us, you're inconsequential."
In the mid-to-late 90's the store I shopped at stopped selling GW completely because of the way they were treated. They're still around, and they will likely stop selling again because of this type of move. I imagine this will be a bit more common than it was then, just by virtue of many more alternatives being available to the market.
Not so much the initial buy in, althought that might be a factor for some, as:
- Ease of ordering. A store can make one phone call for all it's product.
- Ability to order blisters one at a time (when metal was out).
- Able to order a very small amount of GW product, tack it on to a larger order of games, and get free shipping.
- And some stores are so small they have trouble ordering the 400.00 a week in product from a distributor for free shipping, and may need the GW models to bulk up their order.
Yeah, all good points. I would imagine this is more aimed at online shops that circumvent GW by going distributors more so than the actual distributors---just a guess though.
aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.
Do they though? Or do distributors and retailers get the same discount from Games Workshop?
I ask, as before when our group checked into purchasing from distributors--the markup was generally 5-10% above buying straight from Games Workshop, which led me to believe they were afforded the same initial discount.
Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Indeed.
Also, Kan, they didn't "spoil" anything. They helped build up hype, something the company sucks ass at.
Semantics. Spoiled = Spoiler. That we all want the info ahead of time has nothing to do with GW's veiwpoint that the information was leaked out.
spoil (spoil)
v. spoiled or spoilt (spoilt), spoil·ing, spoils
v.tr.
1.
a. To impair the value or quality of.
b. To damage irreparably; ruin.
2. To impair the completeness, perfection, or unity of; flaw grievously: spoiled the party.
3. To do harm to the character, nature, or attitude of by oversolicitude, overindulgence, or excessive praise. See Synonyms at pamper.
4. Archaic
a. To plunder; despoil.
b. To take by force.
v.intr.
1. To become unfit for use or consumption, as from decay. Used especially of perishables, such as food. See Synonyms at decay.
2. To pillage.
n.
1. spoils
a. Goods or property seized from a victim after a conflict, especially after a military victory.
b. Incidental benefits reaped by a winner, especially political patronage enjoyed by a successful party or candidate.
2. An object of plunder; prey.
3. Refuse material removed from an excavation.
4. Archaic The act of plundering; spoliation.
The word indeed has a pejorative meaning for the most part. The way you're understanding it requires explanation.
aka_mythos wrote:It sounds like GW really wants to cut out distributors from the food chain... if they're successful they sell to all stores and they do so at a higher margin than they sell to distributors.
Do they though? Or do distributors and retailers get the same discount from Games Workshop?
I ask, as before when our group checked into purchasing from distributors--the markup was generally 5-10% above buying straight from Games Workshop, which led me to believe they were afforded the same initial discount.
Distributors get a 2% higher discount than retailers. Alliance and most distributors sell to stores at 35% off, and free shipping over 400.00, so they are 10% higher than GW direct, but your profits on the product are slashed by about 22%. E-Figures sells at 40% discount on GW, with a flat 5.95 shipping charge, for a bit better deal. Stores won't see better than that, as I can't imagine a distributor working on less than 7% margin, with shipping charges and CC fees to eat, and have anything left over to pay for the staff, packing materials, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
BrassScorpion wrote:Distributors sell to independent sellers. If they get the product on the street date that means they cannot get it to retailers till after the street date.
Distributors need to have it before the street date in order for them to have it to the retailers they service on the street date. Otherwise, independents aren't able to be competitive on street date.
Indeed.
Also, Kan, they didn't "spoil" anything. They helped build up hype, something the company sucks ass at.
Semantics. Spoiled = Spoiler. That we all want the info ahead of time has nothing to do with GW's veiwpoint that the information was leaked out.
spoil (spoil)
v. spoiled or spoilt (spoilt), spoil·ing, spoils
v.tr.
1.
a. To impair the value or quality of.
b. To damage irreparably; ruin.
2. To impair the completeness, perfection, or unity of; flaw grievously: spoiled the party.
3. To do harm to the character, nature, or attitude of by oversolicitude, overindulgence, or excessive praise. See Synonyms at pamper.
4. Archaic
a. To plunder; despoil.
b. To take by force.
v.intr.
1. To become unfit for use or consumption, as from decay. Used especially of perishables, such as food. See Synonyms at decay.
2. To pillage.
n.
1. spoils
a. Goods or property seized from a victim after a conflict, especially after a military victory.
b. Incidental benefits reaped by a winner, especially political patronage enjoyed by a successful party or candidate.
2. An object of plunder; prey.
3. Refuse material removed from an excavation.
4. Archaic The act of plundering; spoliation.
The word indeed has a pejorative meaning for the most part. The way you're understanding it requires explanation.
Always glad to help. Athough I'm pretty sure if you can find 'spoil' in a dictinary, you could find 'spoiler'. I highlighted number 5 for you.
spoil·er (spoilr)
n.
1. One who seizes spoils or booty.
2. Something that causes spoilage.
3.
a. A long, narrow hinged plate on the upper surface of an airplane wing that reduces lift and increases drag when raised.
b. An air deflector mounted usually at the rear of an automobile to reduce lift at high speeds.
4. A candidate for office whose chances of winning are slight but who may get enough votes to prevent one of the leading candidates from winning.
5. A published piece of information that divulges a surprise, such as a plot twist in a movie.
Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner, frankly.
If by 'spoiled' you mean 'actually made me give a gak about' then yes, I suppose they spoiled them massively.
Since GW don't publicise any releases anymore, you just wait until something is released on the GW website, then order it from Maelstrom or Wayland as usual.
So long as you are not an impatient teenager, that is.
Kilkrazy wrote:I don't think this will make a lot of difference.
Since GW don't publicise any releases anymore, you just wait until something is released on the GW website, then order it from Maelstrom or Wayland as usual.
So long as you are not an impatient teenager, that is.
Kilkrazy wrote:I don't think this will make a lot of difference.
Since GW don't publicise any releases anymore, you just wait until something is released on the GW website, then order it from Maelstrom or Wayland as usual.
So long as you are not an impatient teenager, that is.
Or you wait and buy it at your local independent/GW shop/whatever place you go to.
Not buying from Maelstrom or Wayland means nothing in the grand scheme of things. If there's something my independent does not have in stock, they'll order it for me and I can pick it up the next time I make a trip out there.
I'm sure that they're not the only ones who do such a thing though.
Defeatmyarmy wrote: In an economy as bad as this, I wonder how sales will fair for this "last minute" release
This is a pretty valid point. I wound up dropping a few hundred bucks on Necrons largely because I had a good idea of when they were coming out due to leaks and so was able to save up cash over the last month. If this was am actual surprise release, I probably would have only bought one or two kits for now since Christmas is coming. I guess that cuts both ways though, with impulse buyers.
The Son Of Russ wrote:Wait, i don't understand what this thread is about? Is it GW blocking off their independant stores or raising prices or what?
Apparently, they're making it so that independent distributors such as Alliance Games are going to be receiving their stock on the same date that you or I do.
The Son Of Russ wrote:Wait, i don't understand what this thread is about? Is it GW blocking off their independant stores or raising prices or what?
Apparently, they're making it so that independent distributors such as Alliance Games are going to be receiving their stock on the same date that you or I do.
oh ty, and its bad as it takes longer to ship to pre-orderers?
The Son Of Russ wrote:Wait, i don't understand what this thread is about? Is it GW blocking off their independant stores or raising prices or what?
Apparently, they're making it so that independent distributors such as Alliance Games are going to be receiving their stock on the same date that you or I do.
oh ty, and its bad as it takes longer to ship to pre-orderers?
It gives customers no incentive to order from Indi sellers.
If you order before the Wednesday of the release--your preorder will ship on that Friday. Orders placed after that Wednesday will not ship until the next Monday.
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LunaHound wrote:
The Son Of Russ wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
The Son Of Russ wrote:Wait, i don't understand what this thread is about? Is it GW blocking off their independant stores or raising prices or what?
Apparently, they're making it so that independent distributors such as Alliance Games are going to be receiving their stock on the same date that you or I do.
oh ty, and its bad as it takes longer to ship to pre-orderers?
It gives customers no incentive to order from Indi sellers.
You have no idea what you're speaking of.
"Indie sellers" are not the same as "indie distributors". Customers do not buy from distributors.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah but the GWHQ/Warhammer World isn't really just a 'bigger store'. It's their head office. The presence of a store onsite is incidental, not central to the building's operation or purpose. It's not a store that also happens to have a museum and the design studio. It's a corporate building that happens to have a store.
That's not the point. The point is that they're local, direct competition. It doesn't matter if GW corporate has an ice-cream factory attached to the roof. The same stuff happened to MG's Melbourne at one point when GW moved in a few blocks away in Melb. Suddenly weird things started happening to their orders. Delays, etc.
If Mik has no GW store anywhere near him, there's no incentive for them to screw with him. When they open up down the road, then he'll have something to worry about..
scipio.au wrote:That's not the point. The point is that they're local, direct competition. It doesn't matter if GW corporate has an ice-cream factory attached to the roof. The same stuff happened to MG's Melbourne at one point when GW moved in a few blocks away in Melb. Suddenly weird things started happening to their orders. Delays, etc.
If Mik has no GW store anywhere near him, there's no incentive for them to screw with him. When they open up down the road, then he'll have something to worry about..
There are 2 GW hobby centers about 30-40ish minutes from both of the Showcase comics locations, and of those he's the only one store that is expanding. I'm not quite local to that area and haven't been up there in some time, but there may have been a 3rd relatively close to one of his stores at some point as well in the past.
In Glen Burnie (Maryland) there is Games and Stuff, which operated before and after GW had its HQ/Battle Bunker in the same town, 15 minutes down the road for at least a decade before The Kirbster moved it to Memphis. In that time, G+S also expanded (moved to bigger locale a couple doors down). If a store went out of business when another chain opened up that sold 1 brand of product at regular retail , then that failed business had other problems, not some sort of conspiracy about missing orders and such.
I really don't see any reason to get up in arms about this development. Its not a malicious act, nor unsual in my experience.
The Son Of Russ wrote:Wait, i don't understand what this thread is about? Is it GW blocking off their independant stores or raising prices or what?
Apparently, they're making it so that independent distributors such as Alliance Games are going to be receiving their stock on the same date that you or I do.
oh ty, and its bad as it takes longer to ship to pre-orderers?
It gives customers no incentive to order from Indi sellers.
Only if that indie seller (by which I assume you mean store) orders from other distributors. If the store orders from GW directly, then they will not be affected.
One of my previous employers did the same thing, backed out of reseller / distributor arrangements. They were supported for a while by direct sales but at the end of the day they didn't have the smaller store support, and sales plummeted. They tried to get back in to distribution routes and, as expected, not so politely told to f off.
scipio.au wrote:That's not the point. The point is that they're local, direct competition. It doesn't matter if GW corporate has an ice-cream factory attached to the roof. The same stuff happened to MG's Melbourne at one point when GW moved in a few blocks away in Melb. Suddenly weird things started happening to their orders. Delays, etc.
If Mik has no GW store anywhere near him, there's no incentive for them to screw with him. When they open up down the road, then he'll have something to worry about..
There are 2 GW hobby centers about 30-40ish minutes from both of the Showcase comics locations, and of those he's the only one store that is expanding. I'm not quite local to that area and haven't been up there in some time, but there may have been a 3rd relatively close to one of his stores at some point as well in the past.
In Glen Burnie (Maryland) there is Games and Stuff, which operated before and after GW had its HQ/Battle Bunker in the same town, 15 minutes down the road for at least a decade before The Kirbster moved it to Memphis. In that time, G+S also expanded (moved to bigger locale a couple doors down). If a store went out of business when another chain opened up that sold 1 brand of product at regular retail , then that failed business had other problems, not some sort of conspiracy about missing orders and such.
I really don't see any reason to get up in arms about this development. Its not a malicious act, nor unsual in my experience.
There's another south of me about 20-25 minutes in Bear, Deleware. Used to be one on South Street in Philly, but GW closed it. I bought all the stuff and moved in, still have some of the cool old posters, now up in my new store in the Mall. So 3 GW stores fairly close to me. Never had problems with my GW orders that could in any way be attributable to proximity to those stores.
I will say, that over the years I've investigated many claims by people that "My local store got screwed with by GW because they were near a GW store". Haven't found any evidence or had a store owner tell me that directly. Did find a few stores that used "GW screwed me" as an excuse for why their product was late, or special orders got screwed up.) Won't say it hasn't ever happened, but I think that at least in the US, it's more myth than fact.
Having seen the set up for orders being placed and picked, and how their corporate works, I think it would be damn hard for it to happen. Trade sales keep their jobs by making LGS happy. Screw that up and it screws up their job. If someone in retail was to try and screw with Trade Sales, it wouldn't go over well. Retail would have to work with the warehouse to do it. Tough, since US Trade buys from the UK owned and operated warehouse. Again, someone from retail asking for a favor of screwing up an order? Difficult to hide and make happen.
"Hey MR. LGS, did my Space Marines come in? Huh? Did they? "....."Nope, sorry about that Timmy, It's those damn guys at GW screwing with my orders again. I think they hate me personally and are working to put me out of business" "WOW, that sucks. I want my Space Marines. I'm going to go repeat this story on the internet. Darn those GW guys."
mikhaila wrote:
I will say, that over the years I've investigated many claims by people that "My local store got screwed with by GW because they were near a GW store". Haven't found any evidence or had a store owner tell me that directly. Did find a few stores that used "GW screwed me" as an excuse for why their product was late, or special orders got screwed up.) Won't say it hasn't ever happened, but I think that at least in the US, it's more myth than fact.
Yes I think this has come up in discussion before, and I believe the conclusion was a different situation in the US to that of the UK during the 90's.
Certainly, I was working for an Indie that had no problem at all with GW prior to the GW store opening down the road - as soon as that happened, late deliveries, not getting new releases in for 2 weeks after they had been with the GW store, and a host of other niggling difficulties. It frustrated the owner to the point where he stopped selling GW at all. I'm not sure if it still goes on these days (that was probably 15 years ago now) but the whole Indie vs. GW store problems has been commented on on numerous occasions.
Yeah, this was in the 90's in Australia, and was told to me by the staff member who was in charge of the miniatures stuff - who was also an actual friend and guy who was in our gaming group. So it wasn't in terms of "making excuses" but informal chat talking about stuff that had started happening at work. They didn't go out of business or anything, and are still going today, though we've all moved on. None of us were children by any means, even in the 90's though, so "Little Timmy" doesn't factor into the experience.
If Mik's experience is all positive, that's great, but back to the older point, if Maelstrom (who also don't seem to be going out of business) are getting mucked about while only a hop skip and a jump away from GW, you would wonder why this is the case...
Is this change for US distributors only or worldwide? I know that many of the US bits places use the middlemen distributors to get their stock to get around GW's policies regarding bits. And a few of the bits sites have the bits before release.
I had a store near me close after a GW store moved in, though all of the 'GW sponsored them until the market was there and then moved in' was spouted by customers. I never heard the owners say it. In fact, all they did was move to a better location in a city an hour away.
To be fair, the most I saw in there was the same ~10 customers week in, week out, who mostly played Warzone, so it's not like they built up a customer base for GW.
scipio.au wrote:Yeah, this was in the 90's in Australia, and was told to me by the staff member who was in charge of the miniatures stuff - who was also an actual friend and guy who was in our gaming group. So it wasn't in terms of "making excuses" but informal chat talking about stuff that had started happening at work. They didn't go out of business or anything, and are still going today, though we've all moved on. None of us were children by any means, even in the 90's though, so "Little Timmy" doesn't factor into the experience.
If Mik's experience is all positive, that's great, but back to the older point, if Maelstrom (who also don't seem to be going out of business) are getting mucked about while only a hop skip and a jump away from GW, you would wonder why this is the case...
Little Timmy is an in joke in my store, I may overuse it in analogies.) From what I can tell, the US had it a lot better than the rest of the world in terms of GW's treatment of Independent stores. Might stem from the shear number of independent stores and lack of coverage by GW in the us.
They screw with us less, because we make them money and they can't replace the lost sales without opening up 200-400 stores.
That said, what has been going on lately is mystifying, because I absolutely believe what they are doing is losing GW money, losing indepependent stockists in the US money, and losing ME money. The disinformation policy is frustrating. This last move is confusing.
-It only delays shipments to stores going through a distributor, not stops them. It won't hurt many online stores, since most have a B&M store as well, and can get the models by the weekend.
-It hurts stores that might be starting out with GW stock, and will hamper growth.
-Not enough GW stores around to get those lost sales, and many won't be going through mailorder if it's only a couple day delay in picking up their stuff.
-How the hell do those stores do any release day events with no stock?
Only thing I can see is a push to get stores to go with GW direct vs. a distributor.
You would be amazed at what having to order with additional shipping can do to a small shop's bottom line. Even if its something small like $10 per order, 2 orders per week every week of the year is an additional $1040 of overhead for a business that has a notoriously low profit margin, especially during dry spells like the current economy.
Not having to ship another order every week alone is worth quite a bit of savings to your average FLGS.
if GW is going to keep trying to make releases top secret and all, they could at least manipulate what it is that they "leak" to create hype at the same time. They should learn to play some instruments, no more of this military-level secrecy. Yes, I know I use weird metaphors.
I have a GW store about 20 minutes from me now. Since its opened, my business has increased from people that Kenny (the store manager) sends to me to get games in with the larger community. GW opening =/= plan to shut down indy store
If you were getting your GW products through Alliance, what would your opinion of this change by GW be?
Oh hell, I'd be pissed. I'd be getting things late continuously, and never have them for customers on the day that GW said they were out.
At that point, not only are you paying more for your stuff, but it gets to you later than everyone else. I can't see this going over well with any stores that is carrying GW, but for some reason not direct.
Because they used the leaked information to put Necrons up for pre order before GW. It's a bit coincidental that this happens so close to Wayland putting the Necrons up off leaked information. That is, of course, if they use a distributor.
I really actually expected something like this to happen when they did that.
Very smart of them too - lets them gauge the interest of the release, how much product to order so no customer is left without.
I am willing to bet that if they got a codex early they would even allow customers, coming into the store, to have a look, and make an informed decision as to what to buy.
You know, customer service and respect for your consumers etc.
Based on my store numbers last year I was around 1.2 million over two different locations. Games Workshop accounted for around 57% of my business. I am at about 18% growth this year so over all things are going in a good direction, looking at adding a 3rd location this coming year.
A couple of Facts
Games Workshop Tradesales and Games workshop Retail are two different areas of the same company. Games workshop makes more from trade sales with indie retailers than it does from their own stores. It's important to understand that Games Workshop retail stores are more about recruiting new hobbyist and growing the over all community. The are a boon to Indie store as long as that indie store knows how to sell the product. I would put real doubts on any store that says they are having issues because a store opened up in their area.
Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it. I would argue that sometimes choice can be just as bad as lack of choice. I would say that my average turn over on product is between 6 or 7 times in a year. You need to make every square foot count for you and not burden your business with slow moving product. If your carrying 16 feet of roleplaying books you have other issues with your store.
Warmachine does have a lower start up cost but the cost to stay competitive in the game is higher over a longer period. War Machine is all about arms race, as a shop owner it's my job to keep that arms race going forward.
That leaves you with the last question of a Tyranid player who buys their army and sticks with it for years after painting it and such. As a shop owner do you think it's in my best interest to let that customer come in and play without buying anything for years? No it's my job to challenge his hobby and/or get him excited about other aspects of the hobby. Throw those curve balls that get him to add a unit or go down a different road and buy a different army/game. It's not that hard to do.
Yes GW is expensive, but they are making the best miniatures out there. They are growing the hobby in many different areas. Yes things were cheaper in the past. I started playing when you could buy a gallon of gas or 4 candy bars for a dollar. You can't do either now. But I can still play with my beaky space marines that I bought. What is the cost of those minatures now that I've played with them all these years? What will be the cost of the space marines I bought today at 37.75 after 10 years of playing with them?
These changes that GW is doing now are great for my stores.
Grimstonefire wrote:Logically from their perspective they want:
> as many people in their stores as possible.
> as many paying full retail price as possible
So it doesn't surprise me as it's common sense really.
How far in advance were/ are they selling them these days anyway?
They got the information from the BoW leak, but it was Wayland that put them up early based on that information.
But is there anything at all to stop Wayland taking pre-orders again based on leaks? The fact is that WD still has to go to the printers in time for it to be distributed EU wide from Poland, human beings still have access to it, and this is apparently where BoW got the information from. Short of some kind of spacial anomaly that allows the magazine to go on sale before it has been printed, or mind-wiped slave drones working in the printers, this kind of thing is difficult to prevent. So even if the new releases are being sent to distributors at a later date, then surely this won't effect what Wayland have done? Even if they have to wait a week or so until after the GW official launch, I'm sure that most collectors will do so if it means they can save 20% on the costs.
Sorry if I have got this completely arse about face!
They got the information from the BoW leak, but it was Wayland that put them up early based on that information.
But is there anything at all to stop Wayland taking pre-orders again based on leaks? The fact is that WD still has to go to the printers in time for it to be distributed EU wide from Poland, human beings still have access to it, and this is apparently where BoW got the information from. Short of some kind of spacial anomaly that allows the magazine to go on sale before it has been printed, or mind-wiped slave drones working in the printers, this kind of thing is difficult to prevent. So even if the new releases are being sent to distributors at a later date, then surely this won't effect what Wayland have done? Even if they have to wait a week or so until after the GW official launch, I'm sure that most collectors will do so if it means they can save 20% on the costs.
Sorry if I have got this completely arse about face!
That's not the point. There's absolutely nothing they can do to prevent Wayland from doing that, and if the prices are accurate, then hey, they might as well.
However, there's also nothing they can do if GW decides to do something like this. If they're going through a distributor rather than ordering directly from GW (I doubt it, with the amount of stuff they move). But I was really expecting something like this - put up our products weeks before us? Your customers won't get it until after our direct customers.
It is, however, a stupid decision. The distributors customers are still GW's customers if they're ordering GW products, and GW is still getting money. The better thing to do is, if they knew who Waylands supplier was, is delay shipments to them, or is Waylands had an account with them (which I assume would be the case for such a large store), delay their orders this one time.
That leaves you with the last question of a Tyranid player who buys their army and sticks with it for years after painting it and such. As a shop owner do you think it's in my best interest to let that customer come in and play without buying anything for years? No it's my job to challenge his hobby and/or get him excited about other aspects of the hobby. Throw those curve balls that get him to add a unit or go down a different road and buy a different army/game. It's not that hard to do.
That's quite a different approach from the GTFO of the hobby that you started with
GW armies today are NOT impulse buys and there's a clear contradiction between this clamped info thing and the investment and planning any customer should do before he commits into making a army with hundred of miniatures and hundred's of dollars... One thing is dreadfleet one shot closed game another thing is a full WFB/40k Army... I'm happy for you because you seem to accept that if that Tyranid guy who got his gears at your store and only updates nids every 4 years has as much right to keep on playing as the guy that buys you a pot of paint every week... Blame GW for the release schedule hiatus not the tyranid player. Is it reasonable for the nid fella not to spend any more dollars apart from the hundreds he already gave you for the bugs as he waits for the dex update? Personally I dont think any player of any race stops there and its your job to lure him, but yet the principle is the important thing here... You would not be able to lure him if you kicked him out of the store.
I will not debate with you the " best models are from GW" or " GW expands the hobby" because thats a different debate really and would run for many paragraphs but the Warmachine thing about being more expensive it still doesn't cut it because to be competitive is not everyones target but even those that have to update armies are NO diferent from a warhammer army update... and updating a WFB army for example is a LOT more expensive than updating a hordes faction...
A guy that spends 200 on his hordes and needs 200 more a couple years later is never as expensive as one 400 wfb army with no updates and lets not even talk about the hobby paints brushes basing etc expenses that involves getting stuff for hundreds of wfb minis...
Mr Short-sighted store owner also seems to be missing the benefit that our theoretical Tyranid player brings to his store - participation. Unless you're SO busy all the time that barely anyone can get use of an instore table, people gaming instore with painted armies attract more of the same, and make the casuals who wander in keen to try new games and join in for a game.
Back in the day (of my last post) the FLGS ended up being our defacto club on Friday evenings/nights. There were a good 10-15 of us who as regulars would come in, play games - both one-offs and campaigns, paint sometimes, hang out, and buy shirtloads of stuff. Because we were welcome, we were also welcoming to new players and did things like run demo games for newbies, paint lessons - you know, the GW newbie welcome stuff, except we did it off our own backs unasked. We bought a lot of stuff, and were also directly responsible for a lot of stuff passing over the counter from demos, recommendations, and general advice.
So go ahead and tell that guy who spent $500 in 2010 but $25 in 2011 to GTFO out of your store. Hopefully he'll take his friends and their business with him as well. As well as those other "little things" as described above.
Chim, the GW hate has been going on for years. It will never stop. I totally agree with your comments. You can curse the darkness, or you can light a candle.
What if I curse the darkness for making me have to go through the trouble of having to buy and then light the candle in order to see well? I don't need a candle in the daytime.
-Loki- wrote:The better thing to do is, if they knew who Waylands supplier was, is delay shipments to them, or is Waylands had an account with them (which I assume would be the case for such a large store), delay their orders this one time.
The 'best thing to do' is to punish a store for putting up pre-orders even through that information is now in the public domain? To deliberately delay shipments to a store just to hurt their sales is likely a breach of contract and highly unethical IMO. What a devious mind, to frighten stores into conforming with GWs silly rules by strangling off their supplies, you should be working for the mighty Workshop itself with that kind of thinking.
In the end, it all boils down to the price and that's what really matters to me. Yes, it certainly is a bad change for us customers since it means either waiting for the retailer to stock up on the new products or pay the full price at GW, but in the end, it's up to you.
I will still buy my stuff at Wayland, simply because it is a lot cheaper...when I can get two boxes of immortals for almost the same price as one bought at GW (~36€ at Wayland, 30€ at GW), I rather wait for 3 weeks until the shipment arrives. Nobody likes waiting, but I prioritize waiting over paying significantally more.
The only thing I still buy at the local store are ICs and, of course, new codices.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:2)GW changes terms of service so indies can only stock GW products.
I don't think they can legally demand that a shop only stock their stuff.
I'm pretty sure they can make it a term of service when it's time to renew contracts, then the retailer has a choice wether to accept new terms or cease trading with GW, your not forcing them per se. Plus GWs idea of what is and isn't legal is certainly "interesting" at best lol.
Other companies constantly work on new marketing and advertising strategies, GW constantly works on new strategies to punish customers, stores and now distributors. Guess their punishment department is now bigger than their marketing department, if they actually have the latter. But noone will tell the raging managers that punishing customers doesn't prevent leaks.
BTW whatever the leak for Wayland was, it wasn't aware of the Cryptek, of Flayed Ones being Finecast and Lychguard/Praetorians and Immortals/Deathmark being one kit.
The problem for GW is that they do not advertise or have curtailed their previews..
Distributors in other industries have shipped product so it hits on day of release. I worked in video game distribution and a lot of our releases, such as AAA titles were shipped to land on day of release. Did this for other products too.
Here though, there was marketing and advertising prior to release.
As long as distributors can get the goods out in time I don't see a real problem, other than the lack of information forthcoming from GW.
Caddery wrote:
It's important to understand that Games Workshop retail stores are more about recruiting new hobbyist and growing the over all community. The are a boon to Indie store as long as that indie store knows how to sell the product.
I have heard similar statements from GW. However, if you examine their behaviour you see a different picture. They get FLGS build up a community of sufficient mass to support a GW store and then open the store. This obviously has a negative effect on the FLGS, especially if a large portion of their sales come from GW products.
Caddery wrote:
Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it. I would argue that sometimes choice can be just as bad as lack of choice. I would say that my average turn over on product is between 6 or 7 times in a year. You need to make every square foot count for you and not burden your business with slow moving product. If your carrying 16 feet of roleplaying books you have other issues with your store.
Although this may be true from the business' perspective it is most definitely not true from the consumers'. You may be able to get a customer to settle for another product and still make the sale, but the customer would be better served with the product of his choice.
patrickparker wrote:Well I guess we can all thank wayland for this one.
Please retract that, its utter nonsense.
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-Loki- wrote:
Pacific wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
LunaHound wrote:I thought it was Beast of War?
They got the information from the BoW leak, but it was Wayland that put them up early based on that information.
But is there anything at all to stop Wayland taking pre-orders again based on leaks? The fact is that WD still has to go to the printers in time for it to be distributed EU wide from Poland, human beings still have access to it, and this is apparently where BoW got the information from. Short of some kind of spacial anomaly that allows the magazine to go on sale before it has been printed, or mind-wiped slave drones working in the printers, this kind of thing is difficult to prevent. So even if the new releases are being sent to distributors at a later date, then surely this won't effect what Wayland have done? Even if they have to wait a week or so until after the GW official launch, I'm sure that most collectors will do so if it means they can save 20% on the costs.
Sorry if I have got this completely arse about face!
That's not the point. There's absolutely nothing they can do to prevent Wayland from doing that, and if the prices are accurate, then hey, they might as well.
However, there's also nothing they can do if GW decides to do something like this. If they're going through a distributor rather than ordering directly from GW (I doubt it, with the amount of stuff they move). But I was really expecting something like this - put up our products weeks before us? Your customers won't get it until after our direct customers.
It is, however, a stupid decision. The distributors customers are still GW's customers if they're ordering GW products, and GW is still getting money. The better thing to do is, if they knew who Waylands supplier was, is delay shipments to them, or is Waylands had an account with them (which I assume would be the case for such a large store), delay their orders this one time.
This has nothing to with us thanks, you are massively over estimating the impact of the leak of information. When we listed the products it was from information in the public domain. That only a few stores followed suit is an example of their failure to seize an great sales window. Other stores often have products listed before us, I don't come and whine on the internet about it. Its business.
Regarding products being witheld from us or suffering slow deliveries, we operate in the EU and there are laws in place to ensure anti competitive practices are severely punished. GW are more than aware of risks presented in the EU if they were to pursue such policies. We have never suffered slow deliveries or anything like it.
Regarding this distro action in the US, again I suggest small store owners whom already cannot plan purchasing for anything regarding GW items will look to cultivate othe revenue streams. What might not be evident here is this is likely an anti online store move in the US, online stores are likely to buy from a distro in the US... and one of the largest retailers is also a distro - well a sister company is. This is actually designed to both hurt them and drive sales to GW's own web property.
Caddery wrote:Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it.
In my case, yes.
Games Workshop
Privateer - Because the players specifically ask for it and buy a ton of it.
Howard Hues - Historical miniature painters buy a ton of this from me, and no one else around carries it.
Vallejo Military colors - Because if you're painting Flames of War, all those hues for German Tanks are tough to get off a GW rack.
Reaper Triads - No clue why they sell so good, but many people prefer them.
Does 5 racks mean 5 times the sales? No. Probably closer to 1.8 times the sales, as the bulk is still GW, as are my miniature sales. But I don't see any reason not to give better selection to my customers while increasing my profits.
And I wouldn't recommend this for newer stores. 20+ years gives a store a more established clientel, and you can judge what product ranges you need. I need a ton of paints, bitz, scenery, etc. I also run a ton of events that pull in people from other stores which don't have my selection, and they do a lot of shopping on tournament days.
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patrickparker wrote:Well I guess we can all thank wayland for this one.
This doesn't affect Wayland at all. They don't go through a distributor. The timing is coincidental. This has been in the works longer than the BOW leak.
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UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:Tin foil hat conspiracy time
1)GW makes it a better proposition to use them as a distributor and chokes other distributors out the market.
2)GW changes terms of service so indies can only stock GW products.
3)With no alternative distributors most indies have to agree or most likely close (due to % of income from GW).
4)GW has stifled competitors out the market due to lack of retail outlets.
5)GW raises prices even further due to monopoly position.
That or I'm just a cynical old nut job :-p
1) This has always been true. I can go through distribution, have access to less product, lose 10% discount, and not get 1800 a year in prize support, plus free advertising, racking, etc. Or I can go through GW...
2) Pretty damn sure this violates a few laws in some countries.
3) I'd be hurting if I dropped GW, then again, GW hurts as well.) Many other shops don't do the % I do though, and Warmachine and FOW would have a big surge.
4) Lots of places wouldn't play ball, many already carry more PP or FOW than GW, others would learn.
5) Raise prices even more than they do now? I think the universe would implode.)
Which other company can do something like this:
"Another leak and we treat you like CUSTOMERS!"
"Oh no, not like customers! Anything but not like customers! Have mercy!"
Caddery wrote:Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it.
In my case, yes.
Games Workshop
Privateer - Because the players specifically ask for it and buy a ton of it.
Howard Hues - Historical miniature painters buy a ton of this from me, and no one else around carries it.
Vallejo Military colors - Because if you're painting Flames of War, all those hues for German Tanks are tough to get off a GW rack.
Reaper Triads - No clue why they sell so good, but many people prefer them.
Does 5 racks mean 5 times the sales? No. Probably closer to 1.8 times the sales, as the bulk is still GW, as are my miniature sales. But I don't see any reason not to give better selection to my customers while increasing my profits.
And I wouldn't recommend this for newer stores. 20+ years gives a store a more established clientel, and you can judge what product ranges you need. I need a ton of paints, bitz, scenery, etc. I also run a ton of events that pull in people from other stores which don't have my selection, and they do a lot of shopping on tournament days.
- Games Workshop has the best washes
- Privateer the best pigment
- Howard hues never used them
- Vallejo the best pots in the market they keep paint safe for many years
- Reaper only have 10 or so and some colors are a nice alternative to vallejos.
So yes me as a hardcore Hobby junkie would be at your store for sure... Instead of hunting down the pots I want from the brands I need in several different stores and ultimately doing my math and going online to save on driving to 4 different stores to find 4 different brands of paints...
Seasoned painters will love your store because they know exactly what brands and colors they want to mix... Imagine that I go for a P3 Coal black and they only have GW and try to shove me a chaos black pot! Lol not going to happen totally different colors.
So it may take space but I bet the hobby geeks will be very pleased with your store.
One thing that really annoys me so much is trying to support a local store that only has 1 paint brand and then I take the time to go there and the paints I want are out of stock, waste my time and money on transports just to be dumped and my painting weekend is screwed... One time thing is ok but constantly? Bye bye.
Caddery wrote:Yes an Indie store can carry a selection of 5+ different paints but they are really doing any more business because of it.
In my case, yes. Games Workshop Privateer - Because the players specifically ask for it and buy a ton of it. Howard Hues - Historical miniature painters buy a ton of this from me, and no one else around carries it. Vallejo Military colors - Because if you're painting Flames of War, all those hues for German Tanks are tough to get off a GW rack. Reaper Triads - No clue why they sell so good, but many people prefer them.
Man, I wish you were closer. It's always 2 lines only at the stores here(2 have GW/Vallejo, 1 GW/Reaper, 1 PP/Reaper, 1 PP/GW).
That's a lot of driving to get the specific colors I use currently.
Sergeant Horse wrote:I have a GW store about 20 minutes from me now. Since its opened, my business has increased from people that Kenny (the store manager) sends to me to get games in with the larger community. GW opening =/= plan to shut down indy store
While I'm glad that Kenny is doing that, it wasn't the GW SOP in years past. When I first took a trip to Georgia years ago, I stopped by the Hobby Hangout in Douglasville and asked them about the GW store that had opened up <5 minutes away... the owner wasn't flattering in his response. The same thing happened to my old store in another state in the mid/late 90's when the second GW store in the whole state opened up a <5 minutes down the same road in the same suburb. All of a sudden, their orders started getting delayed while their rep just lied to them about what the store down the road was selling/doing. That isn't third or even second hand knowledge as I specifically went to that GW store as part of an amateur sting to purchase two blisters that GW wouldn't ship the FLGS until release day and claimed they held their store to the same requirement.. yet were available for purchase several days before at the GW store. The owner faxed them a copy of the receipt and a photocopy of the back of the blister. While I'm glad that GW seems to have changed their attitude towards indie stores in the meantime, it doesn't erase the past for those of us who witnessed their skulduggery first hand.
Sergeant Horse wrote:I have a GW store about 20 minutes from me now. Since its opened, my business has increased from people that Kenny (the store manager) sends to me to get games in with the larger community. GW opening =/= plan to shut down indy store
While I'm glad that Kenny is doing that, it wasn't the GW SOP in years past. When I first took a trip to Georgia years ago, I stopped by the Hobby Hangout in Douglasville and asked them about the GW store that had opened up <5 minutes away... the owner wasn't flattering in his response. The same thing happened to my old store in another state in the mid/late 90's when the second GW store in the whole state opened up a <5 minutes down the same road in the same suburb. All of a sudden, their orders started getting delayed while their rep just lied to them about what the store down the road was selling/doing. That isn't third or even second hand knowledge as I specifically went to that GW store as part of an amateur sting to purchase two blisters that GW wouldn't ship the FLGS until release day and claimed they held their store to the same requirement.. yet were available for purchase several days before at the GW store. The owner faxed them a copy of the receipt and a photocopy of the back of the blister. While I'm glad that GW seems to have changed their attitude towards indie stores in the meantime, it doesn't erase the past for those of us who witnessed their skulduggery first hand.
Did they take any action against the manager? That's definitely against their corporate policy, and should have had some reprecussions.
Ironically, they have a set street date now, that applies to GW stores. But indie retailers can in most cases put the product out when they recieve it. So I'll be able to sell newcrons on thur/friday, but the GW stores will put them out saturday. Which makes the move to have stores that go through distribution get product later so odd.
This thread reads like desperate detractors trying to get some mud to stick to GW. Having said that, I see loads of books and computer games up on Amazon and the like way before the games are given a release date. Wether this is worth it for Necrons is up to individual stores. I'm not much interested in 40k until 6th ed comes out. I'm not a Necron fan and I don't think they are one of the main armies so I'm still bemused by the fuss. I wonder what people are hoping to see happen. There isn't going to be a single event where GW have a public spat and beg people to come back. The worst that would happen would be that they get bought out by another company because their IP can still generate a large revenue. Like I say, I dont know what people are expecting to happen with GW, they aren't about to collapse and they have a large fanbase and with the Hobbit coming they will regain customers.
This thread reads like people discussing why a toy soldier company made a decision not to inform distributors about the wares they may be about to distribute.
If that is not worth the fuss to you then no probs, but your statement is a personal opinion rather than a reason for justification of implimenting the policy, or what the effects might be.
mikhaila wrote:
Did they take any action against the manager? That's definitely against their corporate policy, and should have had some reprecussions.
Ironically, they have a set street date now, that applies to GW stores. But indie retailers can in most cases put the product out when they recieve it. So I'll be able to sell newcrons on thur/friday, but the GW stores will put them out saturday. Which makes the move to have stores that go through distribution get product later so odd.
I can't say if they took action against the GW manager as I only went to that store maybe twice before it closed down (and only when my FLGS was out of stock of something I needed). When I came back with the receipt proving they sold the product and gave it to the owner (and got my money back as I bought it for him by request), the FLGS owner got on the phone with his GW rep and faxed the receipt to him as he was still denying that stuff happened. After a reaming the rep a bit, he got his ship date changed to *arrive* on new-release fridays (to match the GW store's shipping schedule) instead of having it *shipped* to him on fridays as it had been for the previous years. This was back in the days of 3rd edition when GW actually told you what was coming out months in advance (as well as having 2-3 separate preview pics weekly on their website) so people anxiously awaited products with many of my fellow players buying them during the first few days of release. He still had stock problems once the competing corporate store opened up for another year or so, though.. but at least he was putting the new stuff on the pegs the same day as the GW store from then on.
I just think its hilarious how secretive and cuthroat a company for kids 12+ can be. From what a store manager of GW said to me once, they aim for people who get excited about new games and new releases and if they sell 1 starter army for every 10-15 peope that check out the store and never return its still profit. However, when they bogart the news of releases, many people who follow the game tend to drift away and spend their money on other entertainment. Kids spend their money on: Video games, toys, movies, etc. Adults spend their money on: Everything they need to live, and if no news of whats coming out is announced publicly in advance, a good amount of people will not save up for a new release.
Yeah, I don't get that. I can understand not wanting a release "spoiled" earlier than they want it to be, and GW isn't really alone in that regard, either, because Wizards recently punished a few people for spoiling the entire New Phyrexia set for Magic before they had revealed all the cards on their own website. But even then, Wizards does reveal every card in the set weeks before the set's release, and not only that but they make a whole event out of getting to play with the new cards early in the form of their Pre-releases, giving you the chance to not only buy packs early, but giving you a special promo and holding a tournament, the prize of which is more cards from the new set.
Magic also has an actual competitive scene, too, so you can kinda understand why they would want to control the info somewhat. You don't want some people to get an unfair advantage by being able to study the set early and figure it all out before everyone else. GW's competitive "scene" is a joke by comparison, a laughable fething joke, and it's all been said before so I'm not going to derail the thread over it...but the point is there isn't much of a point in all the secrecy surrounding a GW release. At least not to the point where we're only "allowed" to see the new models a week before they're available. For the most part people will have their minds made up about them whether the models are revealed three months or a week ahead of time. For example, people who don't like the funky headdresses on some of the new Necrons, would you have necessarily changed your mind if the first you'd seen them was Friday on GW's website instead of the BoW leak? No, probably not. If you don't like the "Tomb Kings in Space" direction they went in you probably still wouldn't like it on Friday, either. Seeing the storm raven at it's "proper" scheduled reveal (GW has no one to blame but themselves for that slip, too) wouldn't have made anyone like it more, the only thing that killed that model was having a really weird, unpopular design that was unlike anything anyone expected or wanted. Likewise, seeing a model early isn't going to make someone lose interest by the time it's actually available, and if they do they probably didn't really want it in the first place and probably would have skipped buying it anyway. I loved the DE razorwing when we saw the first pics of it (and the price too, oddly enough), still loved it when it went up for advance order, and I eventually bought one despite the fact that before the model was revealed I was perfectly content with filling my HS with ravagers and calling it good. I plan on buying two more, too, unless the price jumps again.
You can't really "spoil" a model release. People will either like it or they won't, and seeing/not seeing it early isn't going to change minds. GW are being fools by convincing themselves it makes a difference.
M:TG is as "competitive" as "competitive" Warhammer. Who ever spent the most to build the internet meta-game "winner" Deck/Army wins unless they run into someone that took the internet Deck/Army that someone else made just the put a screw to their own internet Deck/Army.
See also: "Leafblower" and "Fairies" and cross-reference it to "LOL Ardboys."
So how long do you guys think it is until 3D printers like MakerBot and stuff become common in houses. I think within the next 5-10 years pirated 3d models of GW units will be available for dl and printing in 3d printers. It is doable now if money isnt really an issue. I have a feeling that unless gw steps up customer service they are going to be bent over by customers mass producing their armies for the cost of plastic and electricity. If the 3d printer is a high enough quality and you use a similar plastic they would never even be able to tell once painted up.
Sid - actually you CAN "spoil" a miniature release, certainly when it comes to the hobby buying spiral. Early release of informtion at the wrong point does negatively impact sales.
But of course you'd know all of this, having researched the actual economics of hobby selling in detail, yes?
Not saying what GW always makes sense, however if they have decided to be secretive then you cant really react to them following logical steps to enforce that secrecy with such shock and suprise. WEll, you can if youre a fan of hyperbole, but thats not to everyones taste.
I like it when people assume winning is as easy as going online, copying a deck or an army card for card/unit for unit, and then just mindlessly throwing down cards or dice and beating people in the face without any effort at all. In reality, those people get their asses kicked because they don't know how this gak all works together. You'll often see a lot of people try to run the "super broken netdeck" at major tournaments, and they get put down pretty easily if they don't know what they're doing (I would know, having played with exact copies of decks I've seen online and gotten rolled over because I don't understand the basics of competitive play, like not keeping one land hands and hoping you draw into more).
Believe it or not, winning actually does depend on the player and not just what they're playing with. A Corvette won't help you win a race if you don't know how to drive. Owning a $5,000 gaming PC won't make you an expert at Call of Duty. And having the money to run Solar Flare won't help you win a Grand Prix if you've never played a game of Magic in your life.
Hox wrote:
So how long do you guys think it is until 3D printers like MakerBot and stuff become common in houses. I think within the next 5-10 years pirated 3d models of GW units will be available for dl and printing in 3d printers. It is doable now if money isnt really an issue.
I don't think that's going to happen. And I honestly wish people would stop saying "3D printing will ruin GW!"...
nosferatu1001 wrote:But of course you'd know all of this, having researched the actual economics of hobby selling in detail, yes?
Since you're a master of toy soldier economics I guess you can explain to me exactly how huge the negative impact of having the Necron release spoiled two weeks before they went on sale, as opposed to just one, really is. Seeing as how I'm just a lowly pleb and wouldn't know, of course.
In particular I'm really interested in watching you explain how the reaction to the stormraven would have been overwhelmingly positive if it were shown at the "right" time, instead of overwhelmingly negative when it was accidentally spoiled due to GW's own feth-ups.
This doesn't make any sense, when I worked in my local retailer the whole point was that I got advanced notification of new products so I could make shelf space, make posters etc and gauge interest and stuff. Oh dear.
sphynx wrote:This doesn't make any sense, when I worked in my local retailer the whole point was that I got advanced notification of new products so I could make shelf space, make posters etc and gauge interest and stuff. Oh dear.
Quiet you! Go drink more kool-aid!
....yeah, as a retailer, I'm horribly curious as to the reasons behind this. I've been told it's a very long explanation best given by someone in the UK. I'm not sure if I really want to hear it. Over the years, I've catagorized GW speak into 4 catagories.
When there isn't a problem:
1) The normal down talk I have with a good sales rep, like the one I have now, where we discuss the games and models, how to sell more, and figure out how much I'm getting each week.
2) The 'party line', which is pretty much what you hear in a GW store, rah rah sisboombah.
When I do have a problem and want it solved:
3) A serious talk where we cut the BS and partyline, and get things solved.
4) A horrifying attempt to make the upset retailer feel better with a hyper version of GW speak. I call this "Handling". Rather than solving problems, the person does his best to make you understand why there isn't a problem, or why you should like the problem, and see it as a challenge.
Having a Masters in statistics, 22 years of retailing, and quite a bit of backgroud that includes advertising, and economics, I really am curious to have a serious discussion about the merits and thought process behind the current marketing technique.
But if some fething limey tried to 'handle' me, I'd probably beat his head soft with a dreadsock. Very frustrated with the disinformation policy at this point.
On the original topic: Doesn't affect me at all, but also curious as how the hell it accomplishes anything good. We used to joke about the 3 important rules at GW:
#1 Sell more lead.
#2 Space Marines always win.
#3 See #1.
Over the years, I actually started taking #1 very serious. How is what I'm doing in my shop selling more product, both in the short term and in the long term? Applying rule #1 to some of GW's policies lately, I've got no clue.
Now it's time to get to work on rule#1, call my sales rep, and order one crapton of Newcrons. The irony is, no matter what GW does, I'm still going to work hard to sell the hell out of their product. (and PIP, FOW, Raging Heroes, Scribor, MAS, DnD, zombie jerkie, sixsiders, archie......).
Well clearly mikhaila, even though you're a business owner for 20+ years and having a background in economics, you don't know anything about economics, because what GW is doing is not only perfectly sane but makes every bit of sense to someone who knows how to make money.
I guess. I dunno. Don't worry, nosferatu will explain everything when he gets back.
mikhaila wrote:
....yeah, as a retailer, I'm horribly curious as to the reasons behind this. I've been told it's a very long explanation best given by someone in the UK.
Why? Do they think it would sound better with a British accent?
Sidstyler wrote:Well clearly mikhaila, even though you're a business owner for 20+ years and having a background in economics, you don't know anything about economics, because what GW is doing is not only perfectly sane but makes every bit of sense to someone who knows how to make money.
I guess. I dunno. Don't worry, nosferatu will explain everything when he gets back.
You just dont quit with the hyperbole, do you. Shouldnt be too shocked, it is you...
Did i say EVERYTHING was "perfectly sane"? No, thats your fallacy ridden bletherings. What I ACTUALLY said is that, IF you are following a policy of restricting information, then continuing to do so shouldnt come as a surprise.
the way people spend money is, despite your incredulity otherwise, able to be deflected by untimely releases of news.
So, to sum up: stop spouting hyperbole laden rubbish, stop using the worst logical fallacies to decry others, and you may appear slightly less hysterical than your posts make out and therefore slightly worth paying any attention to.
I clearly see both sides of this but does a few days really make that much of a difference? How much of the hobby is people that have to have it the earliest possible day they can get it? I don't ever do that, finish your current project, read the new codex, make an informed purchase. *shrug*
Whenever these threads pop up, I wonder if some of the hardcore GW fans on this board will say "that's it, that's the line, I can defend GW no further!"
Occasionally a person who tends to support GW will decide that they can no longer support them (Australia situation), but for the hardcore fans, it seems that GW can do no wrong.
This really is a stupid decision by GW. The rumor mill does far more to drive their sales than it does to slow them.
edit: No, dakka filter, I didn't mean "slow." I meant a close synonym of "impede" or "hinder."
Worglock wrote:M:TG is as "competitive" as "competitive" Warhammer. Who ever spent the most to build the internet meta-game "winner" Deck/Army wins unless they run into someone that took the internet Deck/Army that someone else made just the put a screw to their own internet Deck/Army.
See also: "Leafblower" and "Fairies" and cross-reference it to "LOL Ardboys."
Originally, I had something else typed, but I'll settle with this: That's wrong. Please do not talk about things you do not understand.
mikhaila wrote:
....yeah, as a retailer, I'm horribly curious as to the reasons behind this. I've been told it's a very long explanation best given by someone in the UK.
Why? Do they think it would sound better with a British accent?
I detect a distinct lack of Infinity and Malifaux in your product lineup!
Forgot Malifaux, have a minimum of two each of every single blister, box, or deck.)
Didn't forget Infinity. Tried to sell it, hasn't caught on in this area. Sold 0 blisters, books or sets in 2 months, back it went to the distributer. Not sure why.
biccat wrote:edit: No, dakka filter, I didn't mean "slow." I meant a close synonym of "impede" or "hinder."
Then try "impede" or "hinder," or perhaps "impair." It's a rich language.
One which I sought to use to its fullest potential. Simply because the Dakka filter is niggardly about the scope of its use doesn't mean that I should be similarly constrained.
Seems like this is all because GW is peeved they keep getting leaks.
Must be one of the CEO's pet peeves that he cannot pull off a big secret release very well.
I would not be surprised if the leak was Jervis himself,the guy is a gamer at heart if it were up to him he would probally let people see what they were sculpting.
Didn't forget Infinity. Tried to sell it, hasn't caught on in this area. Sold 0 blisters, books or sets in 2 months, back it went to the distributer. Not sure why.
It's nice that your distributor lets you do that. If you didn't sell something of GW's (like if for some odd reason you sold zero of your upcoming necron order hypothetically), would GW let you return the items for full credit?
This will absolutely affect my FLGS as they order through Alliance, I believe. Does anybody know when this goes into effect? Are my Necrons going to be late?
Hox wrote:So how long do you guys think it is until 3D printers like MakerBot and stuff become common in houses. I think within the next 5-10 years pirated 3d models of GW units will be available for dl and printing in 3d printers. It is doable now if money isnt really an issue. I have a feeling that unless gw steps up customer service they are going to be bent over by customers mass producing their armies for the cost of plastic and electricity. If the 3d printer is a high enough quality and you use a similar plastic they would never even be able to tell once painted up.
I don't think it will happen because I can't see an every day household use for a 3D printer.
Hox wrote:So how long do you guys think it is until 3D printers like MakerBot and stuff become common in houses. I think within the next 5-10 years pirated 3d models of GW units will be available for dl and printing in 3d printers. It is doable now if money isnt really an issue. I have a feeling that unless gw steps up customer service they are going to be bent over by customers mass producing their armies for the cost of plastic and electricity. If the 3d printer is a high enough quality and you use a similar plastic they would never even be able to tell once painted up.
The real problem is print quality. I don't know if you've ever seen makerbot products, but their level of detail isn't even close to what is necessary for wargaming figs. At the level that the technology is at now, it's probably easier to sculpt and cast your own models by hand. In a decade or two, maybe.
To the OT, it's really sad that GW feels the need to screw with their customer base even more. It's even sadder that this move isn't the least bit surprising to so many of us.
TCWarRoom wrote:If stores order their items direct from GW, they wont have delays. This is GW selling to the distributors. It will encourage stores to set up an account with GW. If you are already direct, it wont even matter.
I have been dealing with them for almost two years and I feel they are a great company. Great customer service, free shipping, prize support. What more can I ask for?
I'm across town from giga, and probably have the same GW rep. In my brief experience with them they have been the most on point manufacturer I have ever dealt with.
Didn't forget Infinity. Tried to sell it, hasn't caught on in this area. Sold 0 blisters, books or sets in 2 months, back it went to the distributer. Not sure why.
It's nice that your distributor lets you do that. If you didn't sell something of GW's (like if for some odd reason you sold zero of your upcoming necron order hypothetically), would GW let you return the items for full credit?
If I couldn't sell any of the Necrons I ordered, it means I'm dead and they can just bury me surrounded by Ghost Arks and Command Barges.)
Wow so mass hate on the 3d printer. I've done lots of architectural work and I can tell you a decade ago any 11 by 17+ printer was thousands of dollars. You can pick one up for a couple hundred bucks now that literally prints at about 50 times the speed. The quality and speed of computer components double every 3 year and cost fractions of their predecessors. A decade ago there were tube TVs and wifi was almost non existent. Are you really unable to look at the world and see this technology will be readily available for cheap in a couple years? I'm a naval weapons tech, you should see the stuff thats out there. This WILL be a reality in a couple years. Whether you choose to embrace technology and its perks or get bent over by GW is up to you. Wifi was patented 14 years ago and started with wireless A with a 30 foot range and a 1mbit/s speed. The lowest end N model now is about a 300ft range and speeds exceeding 300 times the A. You can buy a C&C model machine now that can cut these models out with all the insane details they have. This will happen.
I don't think it will happen because I can't see an every day household use for a 3D printer.
Oh I dont know, maybe the hobby you spend thousands of dollars on might be a good enough reason? GW can charge 300 for a damn paintset and people buy it. You would say no to a 400 dollar machine that lets you print land raiders?
I don't think it will happen because I can't see an every day household use for a 3D printer.
Oh I dont know, maybe the hobby you spend thousands of dollars on might be a good enough reason? GW can charge 300 for a damn paintset and people buy it. You would say no to a 400 dollar machine that lets you print land raiders?
3D printers of sufficient quality are $50K+. Between the time it takes to print and clean, and the cost of power and materials... its cheaper to produce a master and cast in resin. Even going by your generous estimate of improvement and cost decline, of halving the price every three years, it would take 18 years for machines of a sufficient quality to be cheap enough.
To be economically feasible with the printer alone you'd need a quality printer for less than $1000, and to produce 4 times that dollar value in miniatures to break even and even more to justify the capital investment. I have over $10k worth of miniatures, I don't think I'd need another $5k worth, and the people who'd benefit most... would be those just starting out... but if you thought the barrier to entry was bad with a $74 rulebook and needing $200 worth of rules... thats worse. On top of that all that cost analysis ignores the 3d model. Would the 3d model be free to print unlimitedly?-Or would it be one and done?-Its GW, 20 years from now, if they even offered it they'd charge $120 for the right to print the model once.
I don't think it will happen because I can't see an every day household use for a 3D printer.
Oh I dont know, maybe the hobby you spend thousands of dollars on might be a good enough reason? GW can charge 300 for a damn paintset and people buy it. You would say no to a 400 dollar machine that lets you print land raiders?
3D printers of sufficient quality are $50K+. Between the time it takes to print and clean, and the cost of power and materials... its cheaper to produce a master and cast in resin. Even going by your generous estimate of improvement and cost decline, of halving the price every three years, it would take 18 years for machines of a sufficient quality to be cheap enough.
To be economically feasible with the printer alone you'd need a quality printer for less than $1000, and to produce 4 times that dollar value in miniatures to break even and even more to justify the capital investment. I have over $10k worth of miniatures, I don't think I'd need another $5k worth, and the people who'd benefit most... would be those just starting out... but if you thought the barrier to entry was bad with a $74 rulebook and needing $200 worth of rules... thats worse. On top of that all that cost analysis ignores the 3d model. Would the 3d model be free to print unlimitedly?-Or would it be one and done?-Its GW, 20 years from now, if they even offered it they'd charge $120 for the right to print the model once.
I dont think you understand. I'm not sure of your age but if you've been around for any amount of time you see how fast things move. A couple years ago, 3d meant looking like an idiot in red and blue glasses. A couple years ago movies were rented in stores. A couple years ago a hundred gig hard drive went for 200 dollars. I work on electronics every day. Once again I move back to the drafting printer. What you used to pay top dollar for in a print shop is now doable at home. 3D printing is an enormous market whether people will accept it or not and where theres a market, technology moves obscenely fast. Most computers are outdated before they hit store shelves. With small companies like MakerBot bringing more and more advanced units. They have been around for under a couple years I would think, I've seen them on tons of TV shows (News/colbert report). They just released a new printing head that is 6 times faster and is more accurate than the old one and they released queuing software to print multiple things automatically. Like you, many people have spent 10s of thousands on models. What if every GW update from now on could be yours for the cost of plastic? How about forgeworld models too. For a thousand dollars your hobby can be continued on indefinately. What about the ability for anyone with 3D skills to create new amazing looking units for your fav army and sharing them? 3D printing will explode as a market solely on the engineering and architectural aspects of being able to create your CAD drawing for some idiot customer whos unable to understand clear pictures (God damn theres alot of them). Its inevitable. Sorry on the long post.
Edit: And no they would be pirated 3D scans (which you can take to a company with a 3d scanner and get done for fairly cheap).
Hox wrote:
Like you, many people have spent 10s of thousands on models. What if every GW update from now on could be yours for the cost of plastic? How about forgeworld models too. For a thousand dollars your hobby can be continued on indefinately. What about the ability for anyone with 3D skills to create new amazing looking units for your fav army and sharing them? 3D printing will explode as a market solely on the engineering and architectural aspects of being able to create your CAD drawing for some idiot customer whos unable to understand clear pictures (God damn theres alot of them). Its inevitable. Sorry on the long post.
Edit: And no they would be pirated 3D scans (which you can take to a company with a 3d scanner and get done for fairly cheap).
First, do you sincerely believe GW, the totalitarian hand that grips tightly about this hobby would ever let its IP be free; where your only cost on a model is your own plastic?-Oh HELLS no! Without restirctions on the file that digital model is worth more than a 1000 plastic models out of its factory.
I understand what you're saying, I'm an engineer and I use 3D printers in my job and for my hobby (see sig), but my point was even at $1000 for a printer its not necessarily economically feasible and without other significant improvements its incovenient and more hastle than buying sprues. Even at $1000 it may in fact be cheaper to just buy the miniatures from someone else who specializes and prints. To put it another way... 2D printers unless you use it alot between ink, the printer itself, and paper you've spent $40-$70 and would have to print 1000 pages to justify buying as opposed to going to a Kinkos and paying $0.40 a page + cost of time and driving... by the time you get past four-hundred pages you need another ink cartridge that bumps up your total investment by $30+... and you now have to print 600+800 pages to break even. Simply put unless its like an office setting where the need for a printer is driven by necessity its an unjustfied up front cost. Desktop printers are only sellable because the overall cost is low enough people don't realize its a bad deal moneywise, that its really just a convenience. 3D printers unless you have a way to monetize what you produce is high cost, a bad deal moneywise, and are still inconvenient.
It'd be an awesome toy and tool to have at home, but its unreasonable for little Timmy to decide he wants to play 40k, and make him go out and buy $1000 worth of machinary and 50lb bags of plastic... enter the 3D models into the machine... wait 6 hours... spend an hour cleaning up the printed model and then finally get to the same point he would have been at had he just bought a modern GW kit off the shelf. Maybe GW could evolve to a "build-a-bear" type business model and support such a concept, but as you've described it they have nothing to gain and the consumer would have to make large up front capital investments with no real guarantee of breaking even.
Even if what you predict came true Hox, there might be a few gamers with the nous to set this up but most would still go to the store and buy stuff. Who would bother with printing acunit of 20 orcs?
Like anyone I make a burger at home anytime I like, I can't see McD's folding any time soon.
notprop wrote:Even if what you predict came true Hox, there might be a few gamers with the nous to set this up but most would still go to the store and buy stuff. Who would bother with printing acunit of 20 orcs?
Like anyone I make a burger at home anytime I like, I can't see McD's folding any time soon.
haha True! You can print a encyclopedia but I would rather buy one and put it on my library shelf
notprop wrote:Even if what you predict came true Hox, there might be a few gamers with the nous to set this up but most would still go to the store and buy stuff. Who would bother with printing acunit of 20 orcs?
Like anyone I make a burger at home anytime I like, I can't see McD's folding any time soon.
That is 100% true man. On the other hand, 5 burgers aren't 55 bucks. I'm looking at you flayed ones, you pieces of.... Anyways yeah you can, some chumps buy a thousand dollar barbeque with all the bells and whistles is its something they enjoy. If the printing tray is 10" by 10", conceivably you could print 25 guys at once. And as I just said, a company started 2 years ago just replaced their printing head with one 6 times faster and these guys look like they are working out of a condemned building (on youtube). There will always be people who buy stuff in store. I would easily drop 100 bucks on a hardcover book (I have a thing for knowledge and books) even though I could easily get a PDF online. What I wont do though is continue to accept 15% price hikes every year. Assuming the new flayed ones cost 30 cents in resin which is a plausible estimate, there is a 3300% markup on them. I look at other hobbies, model cars for 20 bucks, action figures like hot toys for 100 (which are hand assembled and painted with obscene quality and amazing packaging. I see other wargaming like privateer press where games are easily played with 100 dollars worth of stuff. I can buy a videogame like the upcoming skyrim which is thousands of hours to complete for 70 bucks. If you want to charge me 55 bucks for 2 dollars in resin go to town. To charge top dollar for unassembled, unpainted, misshapen sprues and massacred Finecast sets is unacceptable. I bought a stegadon a could weeks ago and assembled it flawlessly. The damn thing still has visible gaps. Dont get me wrong I love to build them, its my favorite part. The price has to reflect the product and it just doesn't. If it becomes feasible I would go in with some buddies, a couple hundred bucks each and share it. BYOPlastic.
Speaking of encyclopedias I was trying to buy the Britannica a little while back but it runs 1400 bucks. Was quite sad.
Yes, because people bring the subject up so much, and people are tired of it. When someone starts printing out miniatures I'd want to paint for less than 50.00 each, come back and tell us.)
Yes, because people bring the subject up so much, and people are tired of it. When someone starts printing out miniatures I'd want to paint for less than 50.00 each, come back and tell us.)
Thanks for that bit. Been on the website for 12 days. Thanks for you know, saying something about the fact that its been discussed and not just being super rude. You are all telling someone who builds and fixes sophisticated missile systems and chaff/infrared launchers that the technology just isn't there and wont be for a long time. I know what exists right now. I know that this is 100% doable with current tech. I don't want to seem like a condescending dick but this forum is 90% people who come into threads to bitch and moan, not actually share opinions or say anything but "you're wrong". Some are up for intelligent conversation (Looking at you mythos), but seriously who complains about an internet post. Fun fact, it may be the same subject but there are many more alleys and related ideas to discuss. I now know why people hate these forums. I'm out.
It'd be an awesome toy and tool to have at home, but its unreasonable for little Timmy to decide he wants to play 40k, and make him go out and buy $1000 worth of machinary and 50lb bags of plastic... enter the 3D models into the machine... wait 6 hours... spend an hour cleaning up the printed model and then finally get to the same point he would have been at had he just bought a modern GW kit off the shelf. Maybe GW could evolve to a "build-a-bear" type business model and support such a concept, but as you've described it they have nothing to gain and the consumer would have to make large up front capital investments with no real guarantee of breaking even.
Who said anything about a little kid? If his parents want to fork cash by the buckets to GW go right ahead. I live off a military salary. If I could get my hands on plans for one of these, I could build the thing myself. Thats not for everyone but it sure is for me. The people I play with have come to an agreement that if we get one we could all use it. This is NOT for GW to gain. I'm talking about pirated 3D models. I can go DL every bit of literature GW has ever put out on the internet with just a google search. If you guys want to pay full price, hey thats your thing. When I bought my first warhammer 40k set, (necron warriors about 6 years ago) the prices were high, but not unreasonable. I dont have cash to throw at GW anymore.
We're already looking at projects like RepRap, a 3D printer that can print a copy of itself. These projects have gone from nothing a few years ago to pretty damn amazing now. It's not just that, the pace has quickened. The number of uses for 3D printing is staggering.
That said, I don't (currently) see much of a home market for them. I'd love to own one both for wargaming stuff and for engineering. Being able to print custom fitted things is a gods send.
Perhaps it might be a bit much to expect mass ownership of such devices in the wargaming community but it's the sort of thing I'd imagine folks saying "Oh yeah, my mate's got one of those; he'd probably print something for you if I asked him".
I'm watching the use of 3D printing in the creation of new models at the moment. MaxMini is designing quite a bit in 3D and then printing and casting, the amount of detail is beautiful.
Fox Box wrote:I've got to agree with Hox - ten to twenty years?
We're already looking at projects like RepRap, a 3D printer that can print a copy of itself. These projects have gone from nothing a few years ago to pretty damn amazing now. It's not just that, the pace has quickened. The number of uses for 3D printing is staggering.
That said, I don't (currently) see much of a home market for them. I'd love to own one both for wargaming stuff and for engineering. Being able to print custom fitted things is a gods send.
Perhaps it might be a bit much to expect mass ownership of such devices in the wargaming community but it's the sort of thing I'd imagine folks saying "Oh yeah, my mate's got one of those; he'd probably print something for you if I asked him".
I'm watching the use of 3D printing in the creation of new models at the moment. MaxMini is designing quite a bit in 3D and then printing and casting, the amount of detail is beautiful.
Exactly. Not common but to have one would be extremely helpful. To be able to build plastic mounts that custom fit to boards would be awesome. I checked out the RepRap and its neat. The MakerBot is a cleaner package with a little higher quality (reflected in the price) and its probably what Ill be keeping an eye on. The fact that maybe 3 or 4 years ago 3D printing wasnt even a thing most people knew existed and has become sub 1000 dollar DIY machines in a matter of years is a clear sign of the technological advances.
I'm glad PP has been doing their best to increase production, because nothing that GW has done suggests that they are going to stop bleeding away their gamer base to other companies.
I'm talking about pirated 3D models. I can go DL every bit of literature GW has ever put out on the internet with just a google search. If you guys want to pay full price, hey thats your thing. When I bought my first warhammer 40k set, (necron warriors about 6 years ago) the prices were high, but not unreasonable. I dont have cash to throw at GW anymore.
So why not become a thief then, right? If you can't afford something it's totally within your rights to steal it. Why wait for a 3d printer? You could just go shoplift from your LGS right now!
sourclams wrote: I'm glad PP has been doing their best to increase production
Have they been doing their best? Because I've been aware of their issues for about a year now and my LGS still can't get in lots of models in anything close to a timely manner through any of it's distributors.
I'm talking about pirated 3D models. I can go DL every bit of literature GW has ever put out on the internet with just a google search. If you guys want to pay full price, hey thats your thing. When I bought my first warhammer 40k set, (necron warriors about 6 years ago) the prices were high, but not unreasonable. I dont have cash to throw at GW anymore.
So why not become a thief then, right? If you can't afford something it's totally within your rights to steal it. Why wait for a 3d printer? You could just go shoplift from your LGS right now!
sourclams wrote: I'm glad PP has been doing their best to increase production
Have they been doing their best? Because I've been aware of their issues for about a year now and my LGS still can't get in lots of models in anything close to a timely manner through any of it's distributors.
Piracy is a legal grey area. In essence I am not stealing anything from GW. I am replicating models for personal use. Just like if you purchase a CD you are allowed to make copies of it. If I chose to do this, GW would lose no business from me. If the prices stay how they are, I will give up warhammer. In essence, if I got the printer I would be more likely to buy models to replicate and buy codexes.This debate is an endless one. Have you ever downloaded a song? A movie? Watched a copyrighted adult movie online? You have broken the law. Why dont you go murder a child because every crime is clearly the same to you.
Hox wrote:Piracy is a legal grey area. In essence I am not stealing anything from GW. I am replicating models for personal use.
Very true and things get confusing when we get into whether it's piracy or counterfeiting.
Hox wrote: Just like if you purchase a CD you are allowed to make copies of it.
Ah, now that's where you're on shaky ground. Here in the UK current legislation (not enforced, but on the books) stipulates that one isn't even allowed to "rip" a CD (make a digital copy of the tracks), let alone make copies, regardless of intended usage.
We're going to have to see how things pan out, particularly with regards to international anti counterfeiting things (I think ACTA would come into play), piracy, that sort of thing.
Personally I'd be tempted to properly learn 3D modelling to make my own parts at last.
Considering I walked into at least 2 stores in the NE US that were quietly selling GK before their release date to their friends and regular customers? No, I'm not surprised in the slightest that GW is taking this step. Does it suck? Yes. I'm not sure I blame them though... those two I saw can't have been the only ones doing it.
Hox wrote:Piracy is a legal grey area. In essence I am not stealing anything from GW. I am replicating models for personal use.
Very true and things get confusing when we get into whether it's piracy or counterfeiting.
Hox wrote: Just like if you purchase a CD you are allowed to make copies of it.
Ah, now that's where you're on shaky ground. Here in the UK current legislation (not enforced, but on the books) stipulates that one isn't even allowed to "rip" a CD (make a digital copy of the tracks), let alone make copies, regardless of intended usage.
We're going to have to see how things pan out, particularly with regards to international anti counterfeiting things (I think ACTA would come into play), piracy, that sort of thing.
Personally I'd be tempted to properly learn 3D modelling to make my own parts at last.
The UK does tend to have stricter laws then the new frontier (Canada!). I think if you pulled some like chapterhouse shenanigans like "Oh they look nearly identical but this one has a tiny little emblem right there and they aren't space marines, they are clearly "cosmic rangers". Are you sure on that rip law? Because I wouldn't see how itunes would work when the MP3 files it uses are all out in the open and easily burn-able. As for the legal ramifications, dont parade through your local GW with your printer and all will be good. As for playing at home for all your friends care you could proxy green plastic army men in for anything in any codex. I more love to paint and build than anything else. This feeds my addiction.
Hox wrote:Piracy is a legal grey area. In essence I am not stealing anything from GW. I am replicating models for personal use. Just like if you purchase a CD you are allowed to make copies of it. If I chose to do this, GW would lose no business from me. If the prices stay how they are, I will give up warhammer. In essence, if I got the printer I would be more likely to buy models to replicate and buy codexes.This debate is an endless one. Have you ever downloaded a song? A movie? Watched a copyrighted adult movie online? You have broken the law. Why dont you go murder a child because every crime is clearly the same to you.
No, it's not a grey area (in the US, the UK, or Canada). No, you aren't stealing; you'd be committing copyright infringement, which is punishable by criminal and civil action even in the wild frontiers of Canada. And no, it's nothing like ripping a CD - format shifting (approved by the courts in the US, somewhat more tenuous in the various Commonwealth countries) is not the same as making counterfeit copies of toy soldiers.
<and tone down the hyperbole, please - it's inflammatory and can only serve to derail the conversation>
Hox wrote:Are you sure on that rip law? Because I wouldn't see how itunes would work when the MP3 files it uses are all out in the open and easily burn-able.
I'm fairly sure, yes. I keep up with UK IP law as best I can as it's an area of considerable interest to me, both personally and in the projects I work on.
I don't really see how iTunes factors in though - it's easy to take something from a friend's house when they're not looking, the ease of doing it doesn't factor into the legality.
The current state of the laws is a bit complex, particularly with things such as the Digital Economy Act which may or may not change things. Certain parts are being repealed, amended, or otherwise tinkered with. Then there's EU law, etc. etc..
Whether one chooses obey the law or not is the question, really. Piracy is not theft, it's copyright infringement. With some things one could attempt to make a case for theft of services, however. It's rather grey, as you say!
Hox wrote:Piracy is a legal grey area. In essence I am not stealing anything from GW. I am replicating models for personal use. Just like if you purchase a CD you are allowed to make copies of it. If I chose to do this, GW would lose no business from me. If the prices stay how they are, I will give up warhammer. In essence, if I got the printer I would be more likely to buy models to replicate and buy codexes.This debate is an endless one. Have you ever downloaded a song? A movie? Watched a copyrighted adult movie online? You have broken the law. Why dont you go murder a child because every crime is clearly the same to you.
No, it's not a grey area (in the US, the UK, or Canada). No, you aren't stealing; you'd be committing copyright infringement, which is punishable by criminal and civil action even in the wild frontiers of Canada. And no, it's nothing like ripping a CD - format shifting (approved by the courts in the US, somewhat more tenuous in the various Commonwealth countries) is not the same as making counterfeit copies of toy soldiers.
<and tone down the hyperbole, please - it's inflammatory and can only serve to derail the conversation>
So you are telling me that I cant make modified GW products like half the wargaming companies out there do? If I alter them they become my creation. A company can modify an existing product from another company and release it as their own. As long as its different enough (allowing me to make even cooler models) they have nothing on me. Im using my 3D model I procured on my 3D printer I bought using my plastic I also bought. If GW has the balls to take me to court for something like that Ill gladly sit in and make money in damages. They are for personal use and not sale. They are solely my own. There are literally a million ways to legally do this yet everyone has to pick things apart out of what I assume is boredom?
Hox wrote:So you are telling me that I cant make modified GW products like half the wargaming companies out there do? If I alter them they become my creation. A company can modify an existing product from another company and release it as their own. As long as its different enough (allowing me to make even cooler models) they have nothing on me. Im using my 3D model I procured on my 3D printer I bought using my plastic I also bought. If GW has the balls to take me to court for something like that Ill gladly sit in and make money in damages.
I'm not telling you anything of the sort; I don't give legal advice on internet forums.
But that's not the situation you presented - there was no talk of modifying (which opens up the discussion of what is and is not a derivative work).
Hox wrote:Edit: And no they would be pirated 3D scans (which you can take to a company with a 3d scanner and get done for fairly cheap).
Hox wrote:So you are telling me that I cant make modified GW products like half the wargaming companies out there do? If I alter them they become my creation. A company can modify an existing product from another company and release it as their own. As long as its different enough (allowing me to make even cooler models) they have nothing on me. Im using my 3D model I procured on my 3D printer I bought using my plastic I also bought. If GW has the balls to take me to court for something like that Ill gladly sit in and make money in damages.
I'm not telling you anything of the sort; I don't give legal advice on internet forums.
But that's not the situation you presented - there was no talk of modifying (which opens up the discussion of what is and is not a derivative work).
Hox wrote:Edit: And no they would be pirated 3D scans (which you can take to a company with a 3d scanner and get done for fairly cheap).
I guess thats fair. I apologize for not being clearer. It would be done in a more acceptable way and I would not tape the words GAMES WORKSHOP to everything. That would be interesting to go to court with GW. The armed forces provide top of the line lawyers for any legal issues we incur. That would be fun to see GW vs. Armed forces on the topic of counterfeit toy soldiers.
I know my GW purchases excede 1000, and if you had a group go in on something like this it would be a great deal.
Sorry I didn't look at the size limit
It would make most all rank and file units though and all but the largest tank parts.
I'm probably just blind but I can't find a price anywhere. And yeah, tons of people have blown thousands on these only to have models go out of date or get nerfed (Like destroyers just were). Its a sad day when you watch 500 in figures become obsolete. Im really interested in that vid I posted higher on the page. it looks like as it draws the platform up through the liquid plastic it exposes it to light, instantly hardening and making what seems to be a very high detail model.
Of course the army would probably not be too keen on frivolous legal case because of your own commercial activities I'm guessing.
Still a second trip down Dakka cliche street would tend to indicate we are way off topic me thinks.
Navy* and if they will give lawyers to someone who breaks a guys face at a bar, I think I'll be fine. Is slightly off topic though. Feel free to go back to denouncing GW for other stupid things they have done wrong.
And this is whay people react badly when someone brings up 3-D printing. Doesn't take long until the whole fething arguement pops up again, and diverges into copyrights, what's a 'grey area', etc. etc.
Indeed but I cant see any quality photos. I think makerbot is the company to watch. An interesting addition to the wiki page. It is theorized that as soon as true artificial intelligence is created, technology will improve at an obscene rate. Its believed almost every issue in the world will be solved. Its a massive brain capable of thinking like us except it has no limit to memories it holds or the amount of thoughts it can have at once. The most important difference though is that where our brains use slow (I say that relatively as clearly to us they seem instant) chemical reactions to send most signals, an electronic brain thinks literally at the speed of light.
And this is whay people react badly when someone brings up 3-D printing. Doesn't take long until the whole fething arguement pops up again, and diverges into copyrights, what's a 'grey area', etc. etc.
I dont see the issue here. Nobody is upset and nobody is being arrested. If you can honestly say you aren't interested in massively lowering the cost of your plastic soldier addiction then thats ok. Nobody is going to tell you that you are right or wrong. I brought up in the thread. If its not the appropriate place to do so then share where it can go. Other than this conversation about printers and tech advancement, this thread is pretty dead. If your just telling me to not bring it up because you personally dont like it I'm going to have to respectfully decline.
The only issue I have with AI is that you would have to have an organic transmission system because everything else would offer too much resistance. I saw an interesting show on a "world in a box" a world that only exists in a computer with multiple AI running at the same time. Scary good.
To your edit:I agree with you on the pirated software/song issue. No one minds when they can use Napster (in the old days) or Vuse to get free information. But when it is something physical-look out! The world is ending!
JudgeShamgar wrote:The only issue I have with AI is that you would have to have an organic transmission system because everything else would offer too much resistance. I saw an interesting show on a "world in a box" a world that only exists in a computer with multiple AI running at the same time. Scary good.
To your edit:I agree with you on the pirated software/song issue. No one minds when they can use Napster (in the old days) or Vuse to get free information. But when it is something physical-look out! The world is ending!
<broadcast mode active: all this talk of 3D printers is off-topic for the thread; please return to the original topic, or refrain from further posts in this thread>
Didn't forget Infinity. Tried to sell it, hasn't caught on in this area. Sold 0 blisters, books or sets in 2 months, back it went to the distributer. Not sure why.
It's nice that your distributor lets you do that. If you didn't sell something of GW's (like if for some odd reason you sold zero of your upcoming necron order hypothetically), would GW let you return the items for full credit?
If I couldn't sell any of the Necrons I ordered, it means I'm dead and they can just bury me surrounded by Ghost Arks and Command Barges.)
But can you see the benefit being able to return non-selling product affords to a smaller or newer retailer who is just getting their feet wet or just starting to expand their coverage of the lines? I've seen several comic shops that start out expanding their gaming section with just a single rack of 40k items to test the waters for 40k interest locally. The times I've seen it, the stores tend to stock new releases since that generates interest a bit more immediately than stuff that has been out for a while. I guess I'm just a proponent for equal choice and I see this as GW trying to clamp down on that (which is admittedly 100% their right to do). I just (in my entirely amateur, biased, and anecdotal view) see the chance for more stores to simply stop carrying the product than switching to ordering specifically from GW. Just like with annual price raises, it suspect that it won't actually help grow the hobby and will instead decrease their bottom line.
As for the last part, I think it would be both fitting AND entertaining if you wrote in your will that you be burried surrounded by an army of little plastic necron warriors. Just think of it as your own pennsylvania plastic version of the chinese emperor and his terracotta army (with a bit of pharoah mixed in due to the necron restyle!).
Didn't forget Infinity. Tried to sell it, hasn't caught on in this area. Sold 0 blisters, books or sets in 2 months, back it went to the distributer. Not sure why.
It's nice that your distributor lets you do that. If you didn't sell something of GW's (like if for some odd reason you sold zero of your upcoming necron order hypothetically), would GW let you return the items for full credit?
If I couldn't sell any of the Necrons I ordered, it means I'm dead and they can just bury me surrounded by Ghost Arks and Command Barges.)
But can you see the benefit being able to return non-selling product affords to a smaller or newer retailer who is just getting their feet wet or just starting to expand their coverage of the lines? I've seen several comic shops that start out expanding their gaming section with just a single rack of 40k items to test the waters for 40k interest locally. The times I've seen it, the stores tend to stock new releases since that generates interest a bit more immediately than stuff that has been out for a while. I guess I'm just a proponent for equal choice and I see this as GW trying to clamp down on that (which is admittedly 100% their right to do). I just (in my entirely amateur, biased, and anecdotal view) see the chance for more stores to simply stop carrying the product than switching to ordering specifically from GW. Just like with annual price raises, it suspect that it won't actually help grow the hobby and will instead decrease their bottom line.
As for the last part, I think it would be both fitting AND entertaining if you wrote in your will that you be burried surrounded by an army of little plastic necron warriors. Just think of it as your own pennsylvania plastic version of the chinese emperor and his terracotta army (with a bit of pharoah mixed in due to the necron restyle!).
Returnable product is always a nice option. The problem that occurs is whenever a product is returnable, a great deal more gets ordered, and a lot of it get's returned, increasing a lot of costs in the manufacturers and distributer sides. In some cases it helps grow a new product, and the manufacturer doesn't mind the cost of returns. DC comics is doing a great job with this on their new 52 line up. But we rarely see this in comics on this scale, and it won't become the norm, ever.
My infinity deal was done by a distributor. He offers several of these on new products. If it works out, a store has a new line of models selling and he sees a profit. If not, he takes it back, costing him money with restocking etc. but is hopefully made worthwhile by the people that do keep it all. Over the years GW has often taken product back from a shop, to fix overstocking problems. That ended a few years ago, and I understood the reasons why at the time. And while it can be a great thing, it can also be a crutch, and encourage retailers to over order. Unlike comics, GW doesn't run out of models, we can always get more the next week.
I like the idea of being buried with 10,000 necron warriors, keeping guard over me.
Kanluwen wrote:You're somehow surprised about this, given that European independent game shops, specifically in Poland, pretty much spoiled three separate releases this year?
es all over them.
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