Figured I could manage two projects on the go at the same time (the other being the Space Marine fandex).

To me, out of all of the Founding Chapters which didn't get their own codex, Iron Hands could easily fill an entire Codex with unique units and abilities. While they may not have much lore, the lore they do have is incredibly deep and detailed. Having an army which makes heavy uses of Bionics and potentially takes influence from the Adeptus Mechanicus in their units and wargear.

My goal for this Codex is to create a unique Space Marine force which doesn't simply feel like "Vanilla Marines with Bionics."

UPDATE - JUNE 2ND, 2012: I've actually restarted this project from the core up and I'm glad I did. Since I did this the Codex has not only been developing much more nicely, but in a very unique way. Mechanicus units are out (sorry for those that were anticipating and hoping for them), but the chapter units have been fleshed out much more significantly. Iron Fathers are going to be much more unique than I had originally made them. Cool new units like Morlock Terminators and Grootslang Devastator Squads have been added with more new units on the way.

The update/remake will include:
- More Bionics!
- More Special Characters!
- Wider variety of more interesting or unique units. An Elite Devastator Squad that have the rules Scouts do, can take Sniper Rifles, and can take a devastating array of Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers? Assault Squads that can upgrade to have Personal Teleporters? Bike Squads that can upgrade to have Jetbikes? All this an more!
- More and better Mechanicus Relics!
- Much, much more!

Knight Titans?

Also, Dreads as HQ, Terminator sergeants, no Chaplains or Librarians (?) and an "Iron Father" (Chaplains) upgrade to Techmarines.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Knight Titans?

Also, Dreads as HQ, Terminator sergeants, no Chaplains or Librarians (?) and an "Iron Father" (Chaplains) upgrade to Techmarines.

Venerable Dreadnoughts will be an HQ choice in Codex: Iron Hands. They will also have some nifty upgrades, such as a Dreadnought Chaplain upgrade. I'm also playing with ways to squeeze more Dreadnoughts into the army without breaking things.

Yup, Sergeants for a lot of squads (except for squads like Assault Squads, obviously) can be upgraded to have Terminator Armour. Even planning on letting a Terminator Sergeant for a Devastator Squad potentially being able to take an Assault Cannon or Missile Launcher.

Iron Fathers are a cross between a Master of the Forge and a Chaplain and are a key piece of Iron Hands organization, I'd be crazy to leave them out. Just a matter of balancing them and making them unique instead of just Techmarine + Chaplain rules.

If you can find some examples of a Knight Titan I'd appreciate it.

Are you going for more of a gunline style marine army? because all other sections seem to be filled (Jump Pack, Mech, Psyker army of doom, OTT devestators) I think it would be a cool and unique playstyle if they were not assault or close range centered, and not meched up..

Do you mean in terms of pictures or rules? Rules, I don't know. Pictures, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knight
General consensus on size seems to vary, but Dreadknight-size seems roughly accurate.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Do you mean in terms of pictures or rules? Rules, I don't know. Pictures, http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knight
General consensus on size seems to vary, but Dreadknight-size seems roughly accurate.

And they come in units instead of being solo or would solo work better for 40k? Also, Heavy Support choices I would assume?

Yeah Heavy support option. I would make them a bit like OTT Dreadknights, without the Psykery and GK stuff(Psycannons, NFW, and the like), and up the points.

In fact, ina What's New Today entry from a month or 2 ago, there was a Dreadknight converted with a Battle Cannon and a Hammer being used just as a TH that strikes in Int order, like the Daemon Hammer Dreadknight.



How are you going to be doing the Termy Sgts? Is it going to be like Wolf Guard, or will it be

"The Sgt may be upgraded with Terminator armour......???pts"


Also, I would think about allowing Assault Squads WITHOUT a JP to do it.

Deadshot wrote:Yeah Heavy support option. I would make them a bit like OTT Dreadknights, without the Psykery and GK stuff(Psycannons, NFW, and the like), and up the points.

In fact, ina What's New Today entry from a month or 2 ago, there was a Dreadknight converted with a Battle Cannon and a Hammer being used just as a TH that strikes in Int order, like the Daemon Hammer Dreadknight.



How are you going to be doing the Termy Sgts? Is it going to be like Wolf Guard, or will it be

"The Sgt may be upgraded with Terminator armour......???pts"


Also, I would think about allowing Assault Squads WITHOUT a JP to do it.

Yes, it will be an upgrade, not something automatic. There's nothing in the lore to state that all Sergeants are given it, just ones who have proven themselves or ones of exceptional ability.

Maybe only for Tacx squads, vets(other thanvanguard with JP), Command Squad's Champion or Equivilent. Basically anything ranked Tac Squads or up?

Deadshot wrote:Maybe only for Tacx squads, vets(other thanvanguard with JP), Command Squad's Champion or Equivilent. Basically anything ranked Tac Squads or up?

A lot of squads will have access to them, but they won't be automatic upgrades. I'm also going to have to modify the rules to say that Rhinos and Razorbacks can carry a single model in Terminator armour, but the model still counts as occupying two transport spaces.

Taking a page from the GK codex, Bulking out the force with SM based units with a second force org to represent the Adeptus.
Like inquisitors in GK, maybe selecting a Magos HQ would allow for a Scout Titan, or Improved POTS.

For techmarines, what about an option to 'resurrect' wrecked vehicles; returning them to play with 1/2 AVs and 1/2 movement speed.

Or Allow techmarines to replace vehicle crews, giving the vehicle the ability to ignore shaken/stunned, and fire at the techmarine's bs; auto repairing on a 4+ at the start of each movement phase.

Squadding tech marines like sanguinary priests is great.

Storm Shields, already have an established ruleset, but making a variant like 'battle shields' or something, though it's anti-fluff, would allow your codex to exist seamlessly alongside others.

Servo arms should, I agree, become more versatile, customized for different tasks, like a servo arm w/ servo skull that could fire a secondary weapon with a POTS like ability; or swing a power sword.

If the AM is involved, you could tweak standard SM weapons loadouts with things like bionic upgrades that give devastator squad type units desperately needed abilities like SNP and Acute Senses.

I always thought a good AM troops choice would be 4-9 servitors with a techmarine as 'sergeant' and just allow them to vary their loadout.

Obviously, bionic upgrades allows you to make some very diverse units with massive upgrade options; I look forward to seeing where you go with this.

junk wrote:Taking a page from the GK codex, Bulking out the force with SM based units with a second force org to represent the Adeptus.
Like inquisitors in GK, maybe selecting a Magos HQ would allow for a Scout Titan, or Improved POTS.

For techmarines, what about an option to 'resurrect' wrecked vehicles; returning them to play with 1/2 AVs and 1/2 movement speed.

Or Allow techmarines to replace vehicle crews, giving the vehicle the ability to ignore shaken/stunned, and fire at the techmarine's bs; auto repairing on a 4+ at the start of each movement phase.

Squadding tech marines like sanguinary priests is great.

Storm Shields, already have an established ruleset, but making a variant like 'battle shields' or something, though it's anti-fluff, would allow your codex to exist seamlessly alongside others.

Servo arms should, I agree, become more versatile, customized for different tasks, like a servo arm w/ servo skull that could fire a secondary weapon with a POTS like ability; or swing a power sword.

If the AM is involved, you could tweak standard SM weapons loadouts with things like bionic upgrades that give devastator squad type units desperately needed abilities like SNP and Acute Senses.

I always thought a good AM troops choice would be 4-9 servitors with a techmarine as 'sergeant' and just allow them to vary their loadout.

Obviously, bionic upgrades allows you to make some very diverse units with massive upgrade options; I look forward to seeing where you go with this.

On the issue of Storm Shields, my problem is that people might start asking "where are the Storm Shields?" However, I do see your point.

For the repairing rules I have something in mind now. Basically so long as an Iron Father or Techmarine is within 6" of a busted up vehicle (Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized) at the end of your turn you get to roll a D6 and on a roll of 5 or 6 you can repair one result. Plus ones for things like Servo-Arms and what not still apply. Each vehicle can only take one of these tests at the end of each of the owning player's turns, however.

I'm still playing around with Servo-Arm and Servo-Harness. Right now a Servo-Arm provides +1 Attack and a Servo-Harness provides +2 Attacks, a plasma pistol, and a flamer. It's pretty boring right now but in my mind the +1 Attack is an improvement over the single last-hit power fist smack anyways. It's a start. I may, as you have suggested, allow varying options for the Servo-Arms and Servo-Harnesses (actually, I'm really liking the idea at this point).

With the changes to Techmarines I'm making they are going to be a much more attractive unit choice. Bolster Defences is more of a buff ability rather than "choose a single piece of terrain and improve it." That, combined with the improved vehicle repair and being able to take three of them as a single Elites choice, should make them much more of an attractive choice.

I'm always looking for more ideas for Bionic Implants, so please feel free to fire any ideas my way via this post.

I have an interesting rule for normal Dreadnoughts. Instead of going the obvious route and making them Elites or Heavy Support, they are stock Elites choices. However, for each Iron Father and Techmarine in your army, you can take a Dreadnought at it's appropriate points cost that does not occupy any slots on the force organization chart. I felt that this was a much cooler way of doing things, allowed for more variance in the Elites and Heavy Support choices, and encourages players to take Iron Fathers and Techmarines.

I definitely like liberating dreadnoughts from force org... what if you could run them in squadrons, like landspeeders?

Also, open up dreadnought weapon selections - battle cannons, twin linked plasma cannons, etc...

Also, what about a superheavy dreadnought? AV 14/13/12.

Bionics:

Based on what the Adeptus Mechanicus uses, here's some ideas

Bionic Upgrade Options based on Adeptus Mechanicus Fluff.

Mind Impulse Unit- The adeptus mechanicus uses these for its Skitarii as a means of controlling weapons with their minds, they could confer the Relentless Special Rule, Increase Ballistic Skill, or function like Tau Target Locks, allowing units to split fire among multiple targets.

Implant Weaponry: Just like it sounds, Bionic weapons that are tied in to the controllers nervous system, making them more accurate and responsive in CC, +1 attack or +1 WS

Mechadendrites: Bionic tendrils, prehensile tentacle like limbs... maybe +1 ws, extra attacks, or treat them like Tyranid Lash Whips or Dark Eldar Shardnets, to reduce opponent's initiatives.

Bionic Organs: Probably convey Feel No Pain or in the case of enhanced endocrine systems, furious charge or fleet.

Other ideas -

Bionic Limbs could increase strength.
Bionic cerebral enhancements (wired reflexes) could increase initiative or grant fearlessness (rite of pure thought).

Digital weapons make for obvious upgrades.

There are a couple examples of imperials with bionic eyes, maybe extending range with certain weapons.

The electro-priests of the AM have bionic 'Electoo Circuits' covering their bodies that act as electric capacitors, these upgrades might provide Short range electro attacks, autowounding like poisoned weapons, or something like a small blast attack usable in assault... one of those 'center on this unit, any enemy models partially under the template suffer a str x hit' kind of things.

Massive bionic overhauls, 6 million dollar man style, might lead to very expensive super enhanced squads, kind of like GK paladins but with tech upgrades instead of psychic abilities.

Things like letting infantry models move like cavalry, or rolling 3d6 for running might be good to represent systemic bionic overhauls.

Nanites might provide regeneration to multi-wound models or self-repair to vehicles.

Look for ways to both benefit and limit your army; it's usually the limitations that make armies interesting, way more than just making things better.

Iron Hands are reknowned for being particularly ruthless, so I imagine a lot of rending weapons and blast markers.

Couldn't you make Techmarines Sargent upgrades, as well as an elites choice? It seems rather fitting for an Iron Hands squad..

junk wrote:I definitely like liberating dreadnoughts from force org... what if you could run them in squadrons, like landspeeders?

Also, open up dreadnought weapon selections - battle cannons, twin linked plasma cannons, etc...

Also, what about a superheavy dreadnought? AV 14/13/12.

Bionics:

Based on what the Adeptus Mechanicus uses, here's some ideas

Bionic Upgrade Options based on Adeptus Mechanicus Fluff.

Mind Impulse Unit- The adeptus mechanicus uses these for its Skitarii as a means of controlling weapons with their minds, they could confer the Relentless Special Rule, Increase Ballistic Skill, or function like Tau Target Locks, allowing units to split fire among multiple targets.

Implant Weaponry: Just like it sounds, Bionic weapons that are tied in to the controllers nervous system, making them more accurate and responsive in CC, +1 attack or +1 WS

Mechadendrites: Bionic tendrils, prehensile tentacle like limbs... maybe +1 ws, extra attacks, or treat them like Tyranid Lash Whips or Dark Eldar Shardnets, to reduce opponent's initiatives.

Bionic Organs: Probably convey Feel No Pain or in the case of enhanced endocrine systems, furious charge or fleet.

Other ideas -

Bionic Limbs could increase strength.
Bionic cerebral enhancements (wired reflexes) could increase initiative or grant fearlessness (rite of pure thought).

Digital weapons make for obvious upgrades.

There are a couple examples of imperials with bionic eyes, maybe extending range with certain weapons.

The electro-priests of the AM have bionic 'Electoo Circuits' covering their bodies that act as electric capacitors, these upgrades might provide Short range electro attacks, autowounding like poisoned weapons, or something like a small blast attack usable in assault... one of those 'center on this unit, any enemy models partially under the template suffer a str x hit' kind of things.

Massive bionic overhauls, 6 million dollar man style, might lead to very expensive super enhanced squads, kind of like GK paladins but with tech upgrades instead of psychic abilities.

Things like letting infantry models move like cavalry, or rolling 3d6 for running might be good to represent systemic bionic overhauls.

Nanites might provide regeneration to multi-wound models or self-repair to vehicles.

Look for ways to both benefit and limit your army; it's usually the limitations that make armies interesting, way more than just making things better.

Iron Hands are reknowned for being particularly ruthless, so I imagine a lot of rending weapons and blast markers.

I'll see what I can do about adding more Dreadnought weapons. I know I want to add a Heavy Conversion Beamer to the Dreadnought weapon set.

As for a "Heavy Dreadnought," I think the Imperial Knight unit will fill that role rather nicely so there is really no need to create another type of Dreadnought. Also, regular Dreads and Venerable Dreads can take an Assault Plating upgrade which boosts their Front Amour Value to 13.

Lord Magnus wrote:Couldn't you make Techmarines Sargent upgrades, as well as an elites choice? It seems rather fitting for an Iron Hands squad..

The problem with that is that there is nothing in the lore to support it. Plus, with the rule about being able to take Dreadnoughts as a no force org choice for each Techmarine and Iron Father you have, it would make things rather crazy pretty quick. I'd rather just keep things simple and have Terminator armour as upgrade for Sergeants. If you meant Terminators, then no, there will be no Terminator Squads as Iron Hands do not deploy their Terminator Armour in such a fashion.

What is really going to set them apart? Bionics? Termie Sarges? 9 Tech Marines? What will make the distinctly different and unique in playstyle from Vanilla Marines?

Lord Magnus wrote:What is really going to set them apart? Bionics? Termie Sarges? 9 Tech Marines? What will make the distinctly different and unique in playstyle from Vanilla Marines?

If you've been reading the posts, quite a lot. A good deal of squads will have access to Bionics. Certain squads that take Bionics will be able to take Bionic Implants. A good deal of squad Sergeants can be upgraded to have Terminator armour. The army can get very Dreadnought heavy pretty quick. No Librarians. Venerable Dreadnoughts are HQ and have access to a much wider array of wargear and options. Techmarines can be taken 3 for every one Elites choice. They'll have access to certain Adeptus Mechanicus units for added flair. Bike Squads can be upgraded to Jet Bike Squads. No Scout squads.

You can't just simply pick the list apart and say "well I can play these like Vanilla Marines." You can play virtually every Codex marine army (apart from maybe Space Wolves) as a Vanilla Marine-esque army. You're not going to escape that. Blood Angels are just jump pack-heavy Vanilla Marines, Dark Angels are pretty much Vanilla Marines with Terminator Squads or Ravenwing Squads as Troops. Black Templars are psyker-less Marines that have their Scout squads rolled into their Tactical Squads. When it comes down to it, you can really degrade any of the marine Codex armies to just offshoots of the Vanilla list.

What I meant by keeping it different was that I simply didn't want to slap every Codex: Space Marine unit in here, add a few special rules and call it a Codex. I'm trying to make Codex: Iron Hands as deviant from Codex: Space Marines as I possibly can without going either too overboard or not doing enough to differentiate them.

For bionics add something like
Leg bionic - adds fleet
arm bionic - adds FC or extra attack
eye bionic - add 6'' range to weapons or make weapons twin-linked

I say limit it by either making each squad may only have 1 bionic, and charge points per squad member
Or just an upgrade for the sergeant, and the ability is added to the squad, but if he takes term armor then they can't take bionics so there is a reason not to take the term upgrade

I thik that their Ven Dredas should be IC, and allowed to join other Dredas.

Before I list the current array of Bionic Implants I have, I will go over the rules for Bionics in the Codex.

There are two levels of Bionics: Bionics (1) and Bionics (2). Bionics (1) is what most standard units have access to and gives a Feel No Pain save of 5+. Bionics (2) is usually reserved for either standard units with extreme bionics or for IC with Bionics and provides a standard Feel No Pain save of 4+. The downside to Bionics, aside from costing points, is that units with Bionics cannot Run or make Sweeping Advances.

Now for a list of the Bionic Implants I have already (note that no one unit or model may take the same implant more than once).

Auto-Reactive Sensors
A unit with auto-reactive sensors gains +1 to their Initiative and may run and make sweeping advances (if they join another unit with Bionics, they lose the ability to run and make sweeping advances unless that unit also has auto-reactive sensors).

Auto-Sanguinary System
Models with an auto-sanguinary system get +1 to their base Toughness.

Improved Hydraulics
Models with improved hydraulics get +1 to their base Strength.

Internal Weapons System
This weapon does not take up the use of any of the unit's hands and can be fired in the Shooting phase. When you pick this implant, select one of the following: heavy flamer; plasma gun; or meltagun. The internal weapons system will have the ranged profile of the selected weapon.

Optical Implant
Models with an optical implant get +1 to their Ballistic Skill. Additionally, a unit with an optical implant (and any unit they join) will have the Night Vision universal special rule.

Stabilizing Systems
Models with stabilizing systems have the Relentless universal special rule (they do not confer this special rule to units they join).

I'm loving this - as far as ideas, my input would be thus:

1) The bionics are good - I can't think of anything more to add except perhaps mechadendrites (and I can see leaving those out - they're normally exclusively mechanicus)

2) You could add in a special rule: "The Flesh is Weak" similar to "Combat Tactics" in the normal SM dex.

"The Flesh is Weak, the Machine is Strong" - Models with this special rule are particularly ruthless. When fighting in close combat, every roll of 6 to wound inflicts two wounds. However, such is their fury at their own failing flesh, any rolls to wound of 1 are resolved against their own unit."

EDIT:

Or something else to depict their EXTREME (like, to the point of self-mutilation) dislike of failure, especially fleshy failure.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm loving this - as far as ideas, my input would be thus:

1) The bionics are good - I can't think of anything more to add except perhaps mechadendrites (and I can see leaving those out - they're normally exclusively mechanicus)

2) You could add in a special rule: "The Flesh is Weak" similar to "Combat Tactics" in the normal SM dex.

"The Flesh is Weak, the Machine is Strong" - Models with this special rule are particularly ruthless. When fighting in close combat, every roll of 6 to wound inflicts two wounds. However, such is their fury at their own failing flesh, any rolls to wound of 1 are resolved against their own unit."

EDIT:

Or something else to depict their EXTREME (like, to the point of self-mutilation) dislike of failure, especially fleshy failure.

Mechadendrites are part of a wargear section called Servo-harness Attachments and I'm gonna have it so that only Iron Fathers can take them. Still ironing out what they do.

Hmm, I get where you're coming from with the Flesh is Weak rule, but I don't want them wounding themselves. To me that's more of a Chaos trait. I'll leave the more extremist stuff to the Sons of Medusa (I plan on remaking Vaylund Cal, Chapter Master of the Sons of Medusa). I currently have the Iron Hands as simply being Stubborn, but I may work in something better.

Oh, and on a Dreadheavy army- the Iron Hands possibly have the least Dreadnoughts of any chapter. So, yeah.

Will the Sanguinary System (+1T) affect the ID threshhold?

Will the Internal Weapons system function like an Aux Grenade Luancher, Ie, it can be fired in addition to another gun?

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Oh, and on a Dreadheavy army- the Iron Hands possibly have the least Dreadnoughts of any chapter. So, yeah.

Key word being possibly. I can't find any lore to support them not being Dreadnought heavy or at least have the same amount of Dreadnoughts as any other chapters. If anything they have some of the most named Venerable Dreadnoughts in lore.

To me, them having less Dreadnoughts than normal simply doesn't make a lot of sense. They are some of the finest artisans of the Adeptus Astartes, so much so that their Techmarines go off to train with the Adeptus Mechanicus to become Iron Fathers and Masters of the Forge. One would assume that this would mean they could take extremely good care of MORE Dreadnoughts than is normal, not less. Additionally I see a lot of lore pointing towards them having lots of Venerable Dreadnoughts within their ranks, more-so than any other chapter.

I'm just going by the most up-to-date information I have available to me, hence why they are Dreadnought heavy. I have, however, changed things a bit. Removed the Dreadnought rule in favor of rules which allow for the use of more Venerable Dreadnoughts, basically being able to take up to 2-3 (haven't decided yet) Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:Will the Sanguinary System (+1T) affect the ID threshhold?

Will the Internal Weapons system function like an Aux Grenade Luancher, Ie, it can be fired in addition to another gun?

Yes, the +1T will effect Instant Death. It won't be cheap, however, and only Independent Characters will have access to it.

As for the Internal Weapon System, not too sure about this yet. I want to say "yes", but I'm not 100% sure which will be more balanced at this point. Playtesting definitely required.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440313a&aId=2500028&_requestid=634540

The Iron Hands revere the limited number of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts that they possess, and treat them with the utmost respect and devotion.

Apparently, most of their TDAs and Dreadnoughts were wiped out in a battle of some kind.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440313a&aId=2500028&_requestid=634540

The Iron Hands revere the limited number of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts that they possess, and treat them with the utmost respect and devotion.

Apparently, most of their TDAs and Dreadnoughts were wiped out in a battle of some kind.

Hmm, supports my changes then. You can have up to two Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice, but Dreadnoughts are back to being one for each Elites entry.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Knight Titans?

You mean Knights, right?

"Smaller and less powerful one-man versions of titans". I used "Knight Titans" rather than "Knights" to be more specific.

Have you guys thought about what to do for knight titan rules? Will you make them similar to the dreadknight?

Dreadknight would be a good start. I actually saw a converted dreadkinght with a Battle Cannon and Daemon Hammer.


If you want, I can think you up something for them?

Lord Magnus wrote:Have you guys thought about what to do for knight titan rules? Will you make them similar to the dreadknight?

Deadshot wrote:Dreadknight would be a good start. I actually saw a converted dreadkinght with a Battle Cannon and Daemon Hammer.


If you want, I can think you up something for them?

Actually I was planning on making them more enclosed and a proper vehicle. To me, making them a non-vehicle unit just doesn't seem right. Basically a heavily armoured Dreadnought with a single Void Shield and some absolutely nasty weapons. I imagine it being about as tall as a Baneblade is long and it being more of an Apocalypse unit instead of a standard game unit.

I dunno, what do you guys think? Keep them as they are and have them at about half the size of a Warhound Titan or change the lore a little bit and have them very Dreadknight-ish?

Well, you have to consider modeling the unit. What will it look like, how difficult will it be to convert a model to represent it?

junk wrote:Well, you have to consider modeling the unit. What will it look like, how difficult will it be to convert a model to represent it?

Indeed. Doesn't seem like Forgeworld has anything close to that size either.

Alright so smaller and a bit of a lore change it is. Normally they're equipped with Titan Weapons, but seeing as how they're smaller I doubt one is gonna be able to fit even a Vulcan Mega-Bolter. What weapon options should these things have?

Marik Law wrote:
As for the Internal Weapon System, not too sure about this yet. I want to say "yes", but I'm not 100% sure which will be more balanced at this point. Playtesting definitely required.

You could make that the squad/IC Internal Weapon System upgrades similar to the SM codex special weapon upgrades.

ie; 1 melta/plasma/flamer per squad, and can add additional if your squad consists of ten

I had a better idea for a "The Flesh is Weak" type rule, similar to what was encountered during the Contqual Purge-

"We stop for nothing" - Iron Hands may fire into close combat. After rolling to hit, roll a D6. On a 4+, they hit the enemy target unit. On any other result, they hit a friendly model. If this is done with any Allied (non Iron Hands army) the score required to hit the Enemy unit is raised to a 5+.

Or something similar - Perhaps I am overthinking this?

I do like the sound of the Knight, IMHO i think it should be able to take a weapon similar to the Punisher Cannon from the IG, but not so many shots.

Im unsure about that Special Rule. Maybe they can only shoot into combat when specific units are fighting e.g scouts

Unit1126PLL wrote:I had a better idea for a "The Flesh is Weak" type rule, similar to what was encountered during the Contqual Purge-

"We stop for nothing" - Iron Hands may fire into close combat. After rolling to hit, roll a D6. On a 4+, they hit the enemy target unit. On any other result, they hit a friendly model. If this is done with any Allied (non Iron Hands army) the score required to hit the Enemy unit is raised to a 5+.

Or something similar - Perhaps I am overthinking this?

I dunno, this still to me seems borderline Chaos. I think simply making them Stubborn would get the point across. I have a few other ideas, but do you think a tactical retreat would be something the Iron Hands would do, or would any form of retreat (even a tactical one) be considered weakness?

They do NOT retreat, unless it would jepordise their goal.

If they were suppossed to defend a position, they would need to be wiped out to a man. If they were evacutating recruits, they would retraet purposefully only to keep their new recruits alive.


Maybe making the fearless or stubborn.

Deadshot wrote:They do NOT retreat, unless it would jepordise their goal.

If they were suppossed to defend a position, they would need to be wiped out to a man. If they were evacutating recruits, they would retraet purposefully only to keep their new recruits alive.


Maybe making the fearless or stubborn.

"Do Not Suffer the Weakness of Flesh"
Replaces ATSKNF. Iron Hands are Stubborn. If they are required to take a morale test and fail, they will still count as having passed the morale test but will take a wound for each value over their Leadership that they failed the test by with only Feel No Pain saves allowed.

Shows that they won't retreat even under pressure. Also, allowing their Bionics saves gives the impression that they fully believe that the iron portions of their body are truly superior to their still fleshy bits, thus finding faith, redemption, and strength through their bionics.

Feel no Pain and this contradict each other.if a wound ignores your armour save, then it also ignores FNP. I would change that to invulnerables.

Deadshot wrote:Feel no Pain and this contradict each other.if a wound ignores your armour save, then it also ignores FNP. I would change that to invulnerables.

That's the reason I worded it so that Feel No Pain is the only save allowed. The actual wording in the Codex will be as follows: "Only saves provided by Bionics may be taken against wounds sustained in this manner."

Marik Law wrote:That's the reason I worded it so that Feel No Pain is the only save allowed. The actual wording in the Codex will be as follows: "Only saves provided by Bionics may be taken against wounds sustained in this manner."

Sounds good.

I have a teaser for everyone: The Headquarters choices!

Iron Thane
The Iron Thane is basically the Iron Hands version of a Master of the Forge and they typically form the Captains of the chapter. They have one more Weapon Skill, Wound, and Initiative than a MotF but remain at 2 Attacks. Along with Techmarines, their Bolster Defences and Blessing of the Omnissiah special rules have been improved and are much more useful and fluid now. Can take a servo-harness with up to four attachments.

Iron Father
The chapter's incarnation of a Chaplain. Functions the same as a normal Chaplain, still debating if they should be same stats as current Chaplain or be upgraded to have an additional Ballistic Skill, Initiative, Wound, and Attack. They can take a servo-harness with a single attachment.

Venerable Dreadnought
Yup, Iron Hands are noted as being lead by Venerables and tend to have a larger abundance of Venerables than any other type of Dreadnought in the army. You can take two of these bad boys as a single Headquarters choice and they don't function as a squad. They also have one or two new special rules and a slew of new vehicle upgrades and weapons to choose from. Can be upgraded to a Chaplain Dreadnought.

Adeptus Mechanicus Magos
This guy I'm totally excited about. He's a weaker unit stat-wise, but still has repairing abilities like Techmarines, and has access to some pretty awesome, unique wargear. What I love about him though is twofold. First, he makes Skitarii Storm Troopers a Troops choice instead of an Elites choice. Also he has a special rule called Technology Crusade. This special rule allows you to pick an enemy vehicle or a single enemy squad with a Heavy weapon or a weapons platform. For the rest of the game, friendly units will count as having Preferred Enemy against that unit and get +1 Ballistic Skill when shooting at that unit. If the unit is destroyed a new objective marker is placed down or, if using kill points, the enemy team will lose D3 kill points if they don't have a model in base contact with the marker at the end of the game.

I take it the Mchanicus guy will be like a GK Inquisitor?

Deadshot wrote:I take it the Mechanicus guy will be like a GK Inquisitor?

In a nutshell, yes. There will be other Adeptus Mechanicus units in the army as well, but taking him only effects the Skitarii Storm Troopers so far.

So I am guessing he allows you to take a single unit of Skitarii troopers, like Henchmen?

Beautiful.
Although, you might want an actual MotF character, and what about a Chapter Master?

I don't thnik the IH actually have a CM.

Deadshot wrote:So I am guessing he allows you to take a single unit of Skitarii troopers, like Henchmen?

Haven't fully decided on his Henchmen yet. I figure it'll be similar to Inquisitors or Dark Eldar where you have a selection of Henchmen you can take (Veteran Skitarii Storm Troopers, Praetorian Servitors, Servitors, etc). The Skitarii Storm Troopers themselves are an Elites choice that replaces the Scouts within the army (since there isn't much evidence to support Scouts and, if anything, the Iron Hands initiative is much more harsh than other Chapters which leads to even less trainees).

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Beautiful.
Although, you might want an actual MotF character, and what about a Chapter Master?

Nope, no Captains or Chapter Masters. The lore and GW have made it pretty clear that the Iron Thanes (basically amped up Masters of the Forge) rule over the Clans and, potentially, the Chapter Master himself is just an Iron Thane and potentially also the leader of one of the Clans.

How about this for their chapter tactics rule. I like "The Flesh is Weak" name as it fits fluff perfectly.

"The Flesh is Weak" gives them the stubborn USR and in CC all attacks are rending on a 5+, but a role of 1 drops their attacks to 1/0 with no modifiers allowed.

Fits with there fluff of being ruthless in the attack, but they suffer a penalty for "weakness"

I made that mistake as well. The way I see it, their flesk is as strong as any Astartes. They just believe that Iron is better.

In the Vanilla codex, Kardan Stronos is called the "Chapter Master", so...

E: Actually, Lexicanum seems to be undecided on whether they have one or not.

Where in the vanilla 'dex? I've never seen it.

Why not try representing bionics as a 5+ fnp save so its like necrons only not as strong and then a item on characters thats enhances bionics to normal fnp

I think the different bionics would be better. I think digital weapons, +1 T that DOES affect ID, +1 WS/BS/S/I/A, or any others, would win out over 5+ FNP.

James100 wrote:Why not try representing bionics as a 5+ fnp save so its like necrons only not as strong and then a item on characters thats enhances bionics to normal fnp

Deadshot wrote:I think the different bionics would be better. I think digital weapons, +1 T that DOES affect ID, +1 WS/BS/S/I/A, or any others, would win out over 5+ FNP.

This is kind of the way I have it now, except without having to wait until the end of the turn to use it. Basically there are two ranks of Bionics, the standard Bionics (1) which provides a 5+ Feel No Pain and an advanced Bionics (2) which provides the standard 4+ Feel No Pain. Typically only very special units have access to Bionics (2) (Iron Thanes and Adeptus Mechanicus Magos, for example). In addition, certain units will be able to take further augmentations via Bionic Implants (at the appropriate points cost per implant). Standard Bionics don't come free on a lot of units either. For example, a Tactical Squad can take Bionics (1) but it will cost them +25 points to do so and they can't take any Bionic Implants.

The downside is that units with Bionics can't run or make sweeping advances and are still prone to having their Bionics negated from weapons that ignore armour saves or from weapons that would normally cause Instant Death.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:In the Vanilla codex, Kardan Stronos is called the "Chapter Master", so...

E: Actually, Lexicanum seems to be undecided on whether they have one or not.

The problem is he is simply referred to as a Chapter Master, that doesn't mean he isn't an Iron Thane, it just means that he is supposedly in overall control of the chapter. Some theories have it that the source that was stating that Kardan was their Chapter Master was also misinformed or that the chapter may give rise to a Chapter Master in times of great need.

Salted Diamond wrote:How about this for their chapter tactics rule. I like "The Flesh is Weak" name as it fits fluff perfectly.

"The Flesh is Weak" gives them the stubborn USR and in CC all attacks are rending on a 5+, but a role of 1 drops their attacks to 1/0 with no modifiers allowed.

Fits with there fluff of being ruthless in the attack, but they suffer a penalty for "weakness"

Hmm, I like it, but just one problem: how do you lower their attacks when you're already rolling for them?

Marik Law wrote:

Salted Diamond wrote:How about this for their chapter tactics rule. I like "The Flesh is Weak" name as it fits fluff perfectly.

"The Flesh is Weak" gives them the stubborn USR and in CC all attacks are rending on a 5+, but a role of 1 drops their attacks to 1/0 with no modifiers allowed.

Fits with there fluff of being ruthless in the attack, but they suffer a penalty for "weakness"

Hmm, I like it, but just one problem: how do you lower their attacks when you're already rolling for them?

"Rolling for them?" I meant they only get 1 attack in CC, no modifiers or bonus attacks allowed.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Marik Law wrote:

Salted Diamond wrote:How about this for their chapter tactics rule. I like "The Flesh is Weak" name as it fits fluff perfectly.

"The Flesh is Weak" gives them the stubborn USR and in CC all attacks are rending on a 5+, but a role of 1 drops their attacks to 1/0 with no modifiers allowed.

Fits with there fluff of being ruthless in the attack, but they suffer a penalty for "weakness"

Hmm, I like it, but just one problem: how do you lower their attacks when you're already rolling for them?

"Rolling for them?" I meant they only get 1 attack in CC, no modifiers or bonus attacks allowed.

My point is that you're already rolling for your attacks. Let me put it as an example...

Let's say an Iron Hands independent character gets 4 attacks in close combat. He rolls a 5, 3, 2, and a 1. He should have two hits and two misses, but because he rolled a 1...what happens?

If this isn't what you meant then you've completely lost me, as when I read what you've said I rea "but a roll of 1 drops their attacks to 1/0 with no modifiers allowed."

I understand what you meant now, and I see what you mean. Maybe a roll of 1 allowed the enemy to reroll a failed armor save, or subtracts 1 from combat resolution to see who won (the way banners add one). Not sure if it would be cumulative or not.

Salted Diamond wrote:I understand what you meant now, and I see what you mean. Maybe a roll of 1 allowed the enemy to reroll a failed armor save, or subtracts 1 from combat resolution to see who won (the way banners add one). Not sure if it would be cumulative or not.

Perhaps any to-hit rolls of 1 strike at -1 or -2 to the model's Strength value?

Marik Law wrote:

Salted Diamond wrote:I understand what you meant now, and I see what you mean. Maybe a roll of 1 allowed the enemy to reroll a failed armor save, or subtracts 1 from combat resolution to see who won (the way banners add one). Not sure if it would be cumulative or not.

Perhaps any to-hit rolls of 1 strike at -1 or -2 to the model's Strength value?

But any rolls of 1 are a miss anyway, so a modifiers are moot there already.

I also have an idea for allowing the Sgt in Termi to ride in Rhino's. Allow them to count as 1 model, but they can't get in or out if either the unit or rhino moved that turn, and they can not move after disembarking. This is due to the bulky nature of the termi armor having to fit.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Marik Law wrote:

Salted Diamond wrote:I understand what you meant now, and I see what you mean. Maybe a roll of 1 allowed the enemy to reroll a failed armor save, or subtracts 1 from combat resolution to see who won (the way banners add one). Not sure if it would be cumulative or not.

Perhaps any to-hit rolls of 1 strike at -1 or -2 to the model's Strength value?

But any rolls of 1 are a miss anyway, so a modifiers are moot there already.

I also have an idea for allowing the Sgt in Termi to ride in Rhino's. Allow them to count as 1 model, but they can't get in or out if either the unit or rhino moved that turn, and they can not move after disembarking. This is due to the bulky nature of the termi armor having to fit.

How about this....

The Flesh is Weak/Suffer Not the Weakness of Flesh
All units with this special rule are Stubborn and count as Rending in close combat. Units with this special rule that roll a 1 to hit in an assault have their Strength value reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 1) until the end of turn. This reduction is applied before any other modifiers.

Why not just count their T as -1 when an opponent rolls a 6 to wound?

Here's an idea: their weakness doesn't make them even weaker, it makes them stronger.

The Flesh is Weak
All units with this special rule and any unit he joins is Stubborn. Additionally, if a unit with this special rule and any unit he joins ever rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, the unit's close combat attacks and the close combat attacks of any they are a part of will count as Rending until the end of the turn.

Basically the failure of one individual makes all of them more zealous in an effort to overcome the weakness of their flesh.

Marik Law wrote:Here's an idea: their weakness doesn't make them even weaker, it makes them stronger.

The Flesh is Weak
All units with this special rule and any unit he joins is Stubborn. Additionally, if a unit with this special rule and any unit he joins ever rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, the unit's close combat attacks and the close combat attacks of any they are a part of will count as Rending until the end of the turn.

Basically the failure of one individual makes all of them more zealous in an effort to overcome the weakness of their flesh.

That's great, but there needs to be a downside to it. what if they can't consolidate if they win the close combat...?

redkommando wrote:

Marik Law wrote:Here's an idea: their weakness doesn't make them even weaker, it makes them stronger.

The Flesh is Weak
All units with this special rule and any unit he joins is Stubborn. Additionally, if a unit with this special rule and any unit he joins ever rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, the unit's close combat attacks and the close combat attacks of any they are a part of will count as Rending until the end of the turn.

Basically the failure of one individual makes all of them more zealous in an effort to overcome the weakness of their flesh.

That's great, but there needs to be a downside to it. what if they can't consolidate if they win the close combat...?

Sounds good to me.

Was reading through the vanilla codex last night and was thinking, does it have to have a minus to it? If it's replacing "Chapter Tactics" the way IC do, then why are we putting one in? Could just change to stubborn and add rending to CC. If anything change the consolidation to only D3" if any rending attacks where made.

Going back to the whole bionics upgrades, I think a model/unit should only be allowed to take 1 bionic upgrade. Maybe IC can have 2, but no more.

Or possibly 3...

Salted Diamond wrote:Was reading through the vanilla codex last night and was thinking, does it have to have a minus to it? If it's replacing "Chapter Tactics" the way IC do, then why are we putting one in? Could just change to stubborn and add rending to CC. If anything change the consolidation to only D3" if any rending attacks where made.

Going back to the whole bionics upgrades, I think a model/unit should only be allowed to take 1 bionic upgrade. Maybe IC can have 2, but no more.

We'll test it as Stubborn and on to-hit rolls of 1 the rest of the unit's attacks are Rending with no downsides first, see how it works out.

As for Bionics, currently Iron Thanes and Magos can take up to three Bionic Upgrades. Iron Fathers can take up to two upgrades (they already get a 4+ Invulnerable Save, so don't want to overdo it). Most others units can take a single upgrade, but some units (such as Tactical Squads) have very limited options.

UPDATE!
Something I wanted to share with everyone was one of the options an Iron Thane and Magos has.

Instead of taking any Bionic Implants or a Conversion Beamer, an Iron Thane or Magos can be upgraded to a special Machine profile. He can't take Terminator armour, a jump pack, or a bike, but he has the Relentless USR as well as improved stats. He can choose to replace one of his arms for a Heavy Weapon, but if he does so he will never be able to claim +1 Attack for having two close combat weapons. Expensive points cost for upgrade to this profile.

Introduced this option for the really extremist Thanes and Magos who have barely any organic tissue left (if any) and whom are basically living machines. They are mounted on a 40mm base and tend to have their lower half replaced with treads or walker appendages. Still ironing this out, but think it would not only be cool but also fluffy.

Okay, love this idea as a convert to the Iron Hands. Here are some idea's.

1. Signum upgrade, a tactical sgt can take a signum upgrade at 10points it maybe used once per turn on any weapon within the squad.

2. An Iron Father Special rule "Marik's Rites" - The Rhino Immobilised repair roll is extended to cover Razorbacks, predators, whirlwinds and vindicators.

3. A Techmarine is not an elite choice, but can be taken as a troops choice if escorted by 4 weapon servitors.

4. Thunderfire Cannons get a single re-roll to hit everytime it fires.

5. Gets Hot Rule - All Iron Hands get to re-roll any failed get's hot rolls.

6. MOTF may take a Conversion Beamer for free.

7. A single Devastator may take a Conversion Beamer.

8. Any Sergeant in the Army may upgrade his armour for Terminator Armour for 20points.

This is off the top of my head, take them, modify them, leave them alone, they are just idea's.

mwnciboo wrote:Okay, love this idea as a convert to the Iron Hands. Here are some idea's.

1. Signum upgrade, a tactical sgt can take a signum upgrade at 10points it maybe used once per turn on any weapon within the squad.

2. An Iron Father Special rule "Marik's Rites" - The Rhino Immobilised repair roll is extended to cover Razorbacks, predators, whirlwinds and vindicators.

3. A Techmarine is not an elite choice, but can be taken as a troops choice if escorted by 4 weapon servitors.

4. Thunderfire Cannons get a single re-roll to hit everytime it fires.

5. Gets Hot Rule - All Iron Hands get to re-roll any failed get's hot rolls.

6. MOTF may take a Conversion Beamer for free.

7. A single Devastator may take a Conversion Beamer.

8. Any Sergeant in the Army may upgrade his armour for Terminator Armour for 20points.

This is off the top of my head, take them, modify them, leave them alone, they are just idea's.

1 is already in the Codex somewhat in the form of Optical Implant. Provides Night Vision and, if the unit remains stationary in the shooting phase, can either confer +1 BS to the unit that has it OR allows the unit to count as having a Signum until the end of turn.

2 I like, will consider adding it in.

With 3, I'd rather leave them as Elites choices with the option of taking up to three as a single Elites choice.

Not sure about 4 as you can select other weapons besides a Thunderfire Cannon in an Iron Hands army (such as a Thudd Gun or a Heavy Conversion Beamer).

Number 5 would sadly clash The Flesh Is Weak so I'm gonna have to say that this one won't make it in.

6 and 7 I can't see happening either as Venerable Dreadnoughts and standard Dreadnoughts will be able to take Heavy Conversion Beamers, Techmarines will be able to take Conversion Beamers, and Weapons Platforms can take Heavy Conversion Beamers. I don't want to over-saturate the army with them. I also don't think they should be free as they are a rather impressive piece of hardware at range.

8 is already in there.

I think the Stronos Pattern Razorback, named after the IH "Chapter Master" should have a bonus. A Stronos is a Las Plas.

Maybe you could re-write Assault marines to use those Teleport packs that The Grey knights use. Just an option, as it would make sense that very rare tech like this, the Iron Hands would have access to it or at least a few prototypes from the Mechanicum.

The reason I put Thunderfire rule in, is to represent the Techmarine controlling it of being an Iron Hand MAster Techmarine as opposed to a normal standard techmarine. You could always expand it to cover trantula's or any other standalone artillery, Weapon system, or automated system.

Deadshot wrote:I think the Stronos Pattern Razorback, named after the IH "Chapter Master" should have a bonus. A Stronos is a Las Plas.

Perhaps a Stronos Razorback could be the IH version of a standard Razorback and have either a Multi-melta, twin-linked Lascannons, Lascannon and co-ax twin-linked Plasma Gun, or a Plasma Cannon.

Would be interested to see IH have their own Predator variant as well.

mwnciboo wrote:Maybe you could re-write Assault marines to use those Teleport packs that The Grey knights use. Just an option, as it would make sense that very rare tech like this, the Iron Hands would have access to it or at least a few prototypes from the Mechanicum.

Both Assault Squads and Vanguard Veteran Squads will be able to take Personal Teleporters. Also, Space Marine Bike Squads can be upgraded to have Space Marine Jet Bikes to represent that not only do the IH have them, but are able to maintain them.

How about: No Scouts or Scout Bikers; the only way that scouts can be taken is through attachment to a Tactical Squad. (I don't really see Scout Squads as an Iron Hands thing.)

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:How about: No Scouts or Scout Bikers; the only way that scouts can be taken is through attachment to a Tactical Squad. (I don't really see Scout Squads as an Iron Hands thing.)

I'd make Scouts a 0-1 reasoning they don't have as many (with no Scout company), and they are not allowed to infiltrate or out flank. Iron Hands are too straight forward to bother with such silly tactics.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:How about: No Scouts or Scout Bikers; the only way that scouts can be taken is through attachment to a Tactical Squad. (I don't really see Scout Squads as an Iron Hands thing.)

I've already excluded Scouts, Scout Bikers, and Land Speeder Storms from the Codex since the Iron Hands have one of the most rigorous initiations of any chapter (one that has a higher failure rate than most other chapters, leaving them with more Servitors but less actual worthy recruits).

Salted Diamond wrote:I'd make Scouts a 0-1 reasoning they don't have as many (with no Scout company), and they are not allowed to infiltrate or out flank. Iron Hands are too straight forward to bother with such silly tactics.

I'm trying to refrain from using "0-1" restrictions on units as much as possible, hence why Scouts have been left out entirely. I don't see Iron Hands entrusting any part of their battles to those who are no more skilled than a standard Battle Brother, especially given their perfectionist attitude and their loathing for the weakness and failures of the flesh.

An IH Predator...Hmmm how about a Conversion Beamer Turret, with HB's on the sponson? (Yes i know i need to shut up about Conversion Beamer..It is awesome though).

I would call it something to do with Forge's. e.g. ANVIL Class Predator, HAMMER Class Pred, Or a PYRITE Class Predator.

Maybe to show the large numbers of Servitors, and lack of scouts we should look at large Servitor units?

mwnciboo wrote:An IH Predator...Hmmm how about a Conversion Beamer Turret, with HB's on the sponson? (Yes i know i need to shut up about Conversion Beamer..It is awesome though).

I would call it something to do with Forge's. e.g. ANVIL Class Predator, HAMMER Class Pred, Or a PYRITE Class Predator.

Maybe to show the large numbers of Servitors, and lack of scouts we should look at large Servitor units?

Vulcan Predator

Vulcan being the Roman name for the Greek god Hephaestus, fitting as he was a god of technology and crafting in general. Main armament would be a Vulcan Heavy Bolter (smaller variation of a Vulcan Megabolter, single rotary array instead of double). Can carry a few other main weapons, mainly upgraded versions of standard weaponry or something.

Oh wow, like the Vulcan Heavy Bolter, is that like a single rotary Vulcan Bolter, because the MegaBolter is always a pair of rotary Heavy Bolters?

I love where this is going, if you need an images copy them off my Pre-Heresy Iron Hand Gallery, I have been collecting IH iconography and pictures.

mwnciboo wrote:Oh wow, like the Vulcan Heavy Bolter, is that like a single rotary Vulcan Bolter, because the MegaBolter is always a pair of rotary Heavy Bolters?

I love where this is going, if you need an images copy them off my Pre-Heresy Iron Hand Gallery, I have been collecting IH iconography and pictures.

Yup, except not as powerful as a standard Vulcan Megabolter wouldn't fit on a Rhino. Still ironing out the details.

Lord Magnus wrote:Are you going for more of a gunline style marine army? because all other sections seem to be filled (Jump Pack, Mech, Psyker army of doom, OTT devestators) I think it would be a cool and unique playstyle if they were not assault or close range centered, and not meched up..

who is the meched up SM codex? Cause it ain't dark angels or templars...deathwing are too expensive and so are landraiders if you're planning to use them as dedicated transports...I always saw the iron hands as meched up, the counterpart to the iron warriors

as far as fixing vehicles and bionics have you given a thought to the new necron WBB rules? they roll at the beginning of every phase. you could do something similar with the techmarine repairs, that they could forgo shooting moving or assaulting to attempt to fix a vehicle, limit one try per vehicle per turn?

As far as techmarines I like the idea of taking them Sanguinary Priest style, but it doesn't add much to the character of the army, it just gives them a chance to take more techmarines. I like the thought of using techmarines as a basis for dreads (after all, the fluff says dreads never go into battle without a techmarine to repair and recover their hallowed frames) and maybe with the other buffs you're planning they'll be more interesting, but just letting you take more isn't going to be enough I know...

I heard mention of Iron Fathers, have you thought about doing something similar to a Big Mech army? where taking a repair guy as your HQ gives you access to more tech heavy options? perhaps taking an iron father would let you take bionics on more units, or take them at a discount.

IDK if nilla marines still do this for bionics but the old nilla marines bionics rule I thought was pretty accurate, that basically he has a 6+ FNP roll in addition to any other saves if a model has bionics. maybe that? and also more weapon options?

Marik Law wrote:If you've been reading the posts, quite a lot. A good deal of squads will have access to Bionics. Certain squads that take Bionics will be able to take Bionic Implants. A good deal of squad Sergeants can be upgraded to have Terminator armour. The army can get very Dreadnought heavy pretty quick. No Librarians. Venerable Dreadnoughts are HQ and have access to a much wider array of wargear and options. Techmarines can be taken 3 for every one Elites choice. They'll have access to certain Adeptus Mechanicus units for added flair. Bike Squads can be upgraded to Jet Bike Squads. No Scout squads.

as far as other options, I know the iron warriors are big on seiges, are the iron hands similar? could you include IG tanks and such? that would certainly help differentiate your army, and give it a unique flair (not like taking ig squads but, using certain leman russ variants like the vanquisher and the executioner etc) and a different playstyle, the ability to mix in ordinance tanks with decent armor supporting your bionic infantry?

I'm no master of the Iron Hands lore by any means, so I admit to relying on searching info on them!

What comes to mind immediately for the "holy crap awesome" factor is the idea of mobile fortresses, their Behemoths. Something combining vehicle and structure rules, with points that can be garrisoned by units. This may well be reserved for Apocalypse though.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a strong chapter doctrine of war (a penchant for cybernetics isn't the same thing). HQ dreads seem to be heavily supported, but apart from that... hrm.

Of course, that's also an opportunity, as you can choose to make them more CC or shooty oriented.

Seige is more Imperial Fists territory, but off the top of my head, I see them as more a relentless advance with the medium-power heavy weapons. To the point of say, having a heavy support choice to replace Devastators that can take Autocannons and has Relentless, but lacks access to lascannons/missiles.

Additionally, to support closing with the enemy, probably some kind of army-wide special rule like "overwhelming firepower" where their heavy weapons cause pinning if to units within 12" of the shooter? So they relentlessly advance towards enemies with Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, pounding them into the dust until they finish them off with a charge? That seems to support a cold, relentless hatred theme to me.

Just some random ideas.

Corseth wrote:I'm no master of the Iron Hands lore by any means, so I admit to relying on searching info on them!

What comes to mind immediately for the "holy crap awesome" factor is the idea of mobile fortresses, their Behemoths. Something combining vehicle and structure rules, with points that can be garrisoned by units. This may well be reserved for Apocalypse though.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a strong chapter doctrine of war (a penchant for cybernetics isn't the same thing). HQ dreads seem to be heavily supported, but apart from that... hrm.

Of course, that's also an opportunity, as you can choose to make them more CC or shooty oriented.

Seige is more Imperial Fists territory, but off the top of my head, I see them as more a relentless advance with the medium-power heavy weapons. To the point of say, having a heavy support choice to replace Devastators that can take Autocannons and has Relentless, but lacks access to lascannons/missiles.

Additionally, to support closing with the enemy, probably some kind of army-wide special rule like "overwhelming firepower" where their heavy weapons cause pinning if to units within 12" of the shooter? So they relentlessly advance towards enemies with Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, pounding them into the dust until they finish them off with a charge? That seems to support a cold, relentless hatred theme to me.

Just some random ideas.

I like this. Maybe do it as a replacement for Chapter Tactics. All unit's gain relentless or Slow-and-purposeful , but maybe have to pass a leadership to assault (Sargent telling them "You can stop shooting now"). Maybe add that Las/missile do not benefit from this rule to keep them from getting to OP.

Could have either a choice between two, or different IC's to swap. Build a CC list with "The Flesh is Weak", or a more shooty army with "Overwhelming Firepower" Both seem fluffy to me.

The Dev could be replaced with "Iron Hammers". It talks in the CSM codex how loyalists stopped using the autocannons, so maybe any roll to hit and/or wound of "6" makes it pinning, -1 to targets leadership for each addition 6 rolled.

Okay, Iron Hands don't have a Chapter Master therefore they cannot take an Honour Guard. I think every Commander of a Clan should have a slightly modified Command Squad part Honour Guard part Command Squad. Call it the "Iron Guard" it would be an Apothecary and 3 Honour Guards and a Champion (including a Standard) Weighing in at 250 points then add on Wargear.

With the "Iron Guard" unit you could go to town with Techmarine conversions and Power Weapons etc. What do you think of this idea?

What was said abiove about Dreads never fighting without a Techmarine has given me an idea.

What about Dreads getting a free Techmarine, witn no upgrades.

If the Techmarine is still alive when its dreadnought is destroyed., then the dread awards no KP or VP, and may capture objectives. And the Techmarine may only repair the dread.

Where does it talk about dreads never going without a techmarine? Would like to know the source as I have never read that. I see problems with if they get one for each dread, will it be a single unit (dread and tech) or 2 separate? Together could cause problems with assault, but apart would make the tech any easy target, and he'd kinda need to stay close to the dread if that's the only thing he is allowed to work on.

Maybe something different then

Dreadnought Protector

If a model has this rule, then at the start of a game, it must randomly pick a dreadnought. As long as a model with this rule is alive, that dreadnought may capture objectives, and does not award kill points for being wrecked, though if it explodes it does.. If this model dies, then the dreadnought may no longer capture, and awards KP. if the dread is already wrecked however, it does not award KP because the shell has been cleansed and protected.

Maybe have a predator/razorback varient with a missile launcher turret - even if it was a razorback with a missile launcher instead of a twin linked heavy bolter and you have to pay say 10 or 15 points more for it.

mwnciboo wrote:Okay, Iron Hands don't have a Chapter Master therefore they cannot take an Honour Guard. I think every Commander of a Clan should have a slightly modified Command Squad part Honour Guard part Command Squad. Call it the "Iron Guard" it would be an Apothecary and 3 Honour Guards and a Champion (including a Standard) Weighing in at 250 points then add on Wargear.

With the "Iron Guard" unit you could go to town with Techmarine conversions and Power Weapons etc. What do you think of this idea?

Honour Guards will still be able to be taken, however they will function like they do in Codex Blood Angels where you can take them for any HQ Independent Character (so an Iron Thane or Iron Father could be accompanied by Servitors, Honour Guard, or a Command Squad).


On the topic of Dreadnoughts, you will be able to take up to two Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice. Ironclad Dreadnoughts will still count as Elites choices while normal Dreadnoughts will be Heavy Support. This means you can potentially field up to 10 Dreadnoughts (4 Venerable, 3 Ironclad, 3 Normal).

Alright, I think I've tortured people long enough. Here's the current overview of the units in Codex: Iron Hands.


HEADQUARTERS
- Kardan Stronos (Acting Chapter Master of the Iron Hands, though all this position confers is basically having Kardan act as an ambassador of the chapter, otherwise the Chapter's Iron Thanes share leadership equally)
- Vaylund Cal (Chapter Master of the Sons of Medusa)
- Iron Thane
- Honour Guard Squad
- Opus Machina Iron Thane (basically an Iron Thane that's gone overboard on replacing organics, essentially making him much more machine than man, fits on a 40mm base)
- Iron Father
- Command Squad
- Venerable Dreadnought (can take two as a single Headquarters choice)
- Magos (Adeptus Mechanicus representative, has some cool special rules and wargear options)
- Opus Machina Magos (same as Opus Machina Iron Thane, but with different stats and special rules)

ELITES
- Sternguard Veteran Squad (no real change, except can be upgraded to have Bionics and, if the squad takes Bionics, it can take a single Implant)
- Eradicator Veteran Squad (basically a Devastator Veteran Squad, acts as an embodiment of the Iron Hands way of thinking. Has Tank Hunters and counts all weapons as Twin-Linked against non-vehicle enemy units. Has 4+ Bionics save right off the bat and can take a single Implant)
- Ironclad Dreadnought
- Techmarines (can take up to three as a single Elites choice. Blessings of the Omnissiah much better and flows more with the pace of the game)
- Skitarii Storm Troopers (basically Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, but with a 5+ Bionics save and access to better weapons. Taken as Troops instead of Elites if you have a Magos in your army)
- Electro-priests (another Adeptus Mechanicus unit, basically Techpriests who have dedicated themselves to fighting and to battle)
- Servitors

TROOPS
- Tactical Squad

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
- Rhino
- Stronos Razorback (has Rhino's self repair special rule, also has different weapon loadouts and options)

FAST ATTACK
- Assault Squad (can be upgraded to have Personal Teleporters)
- Vanguard Veteran Squad (can be upgraded to have Personal Teleporters)
- Space Marine Bike Squad (can be upgraded to have Space Marine Jet Bikes)
- Attack Bike Squad
- Land Speeder Squad

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Devastator Squad
- Dreadnought
- Mobile Weapon Platforms (same as Thunderfire Cannons, but you can take up to three of them as a single Heavy Support choice and they have multiple weapon options)
- Praetorian Servitors (bad-ass battle servitors, Relentless, equipped with a variety of heavy weapons)
- Imperial Knight (basically an enclosed version of a Dreadknight)
- Predator
- Vindicator
- Whirlwind
- Land Raider
- Land Raider Crusader
- Land Raider Redeemer
- Land Raider Ares (bad-ass 300 point Land Raider, no transport capacity but is equipped with two twin-linked heavy flamers in the sponsons, a twin-linked assault cannon, and a forward-facing Vindicator Cannon)

Looks brilliant. Although it could do with some more characters, to fit the current theme of more and more of them. Pre-Chaos Brazen Claws? Praetors of Orpheus?
And the vanilla MotF entry pretty much stated that the Iron Hands have one.

You need another troops option. One doesn't cut it.

Yeah... Specifically, more AdMech stuff. With the current list, if it were released by GW, they'd probably hype up the "AdMech army" side of it, and then be moaned at for not providing enough units for that to be a viable choice.

BTW, are Praetors of Orpheus not Ultramarine successors? I am looking at a Chapter badge with an Ultramarine U in the corner.

LANDRAIDER ARES FTW!!!!!!!!!!!! Want one..

That is the one on the GW site? The one made by the Dark Angels?

...Fair point. But apparently they're closely linked with the Mechanicus, and seem like the sort who would use these rules.

Probably, yeah.



Ooo, I have an idea! You know how many chapters distrust the AdMech associated Chapters?, Well, make it a rule that any ally SM, other than GK, cannot embark on a IH vehicle under any circumstances. Buy your own or hoof it!

Deadshot wrote:You need another troops option. One doesn't cut it.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Yeah... Specifically, more AdMech stuff. With the current list, if it were released by GW, they'd probably hype up the "AdMech army" side of it, and then be moaned at for not providing enough units for that to be a viable choice.

You can take Skitarii Storm Troopers as Troops if you take a Magos. Basically you can't have a true AdMech army without a Magos, in a nutshell. Which, if you think about it, makes sense. Wouldn't be much of an AdMech army without one.

I am toying with ideas for more AdMech units, particularly some Fast Attack choices as that area of the army on both sides is pretty bland right now. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

Maybe adding a Battle Servitors squad as Troops, but having a rule where you can't have more Battle Servitor squads than you have Tactical Squads.

Deadshot wrote:That is the one on the GW site? The one made by the Dark Angels?

Yes, it was originally created by the Dark Angels and had the Dark Angels had their way, it would have stayed with the Dark Angels. However, the chapter's Techmarines thought the design was so impressive that they sent the designs off to Mars to be analyzed and potentially mass-produced, a move that was never approved by and has never sat well with the rest of the Dark Angels.

Deadshot wrote:Ooo, I have an idea! You know how many chapters distrust the AdMech associated Chapters?, Well, make it a rule that any ally SM, other than GK, cannot embark on a IH vehicle under any circumstances. Buy your own or hoof it!

Hmm, I'll think about this one. The Blood Angels are right up there with other Chapters and other authorities (Inquisition) that think they're absolutely bonkers and borderline heretics yet people can still bear it and ride their transports and what not.

However, I do think a rule where Iron Hands Independent Characters cannot join non-Codex units except for Imperial Guard and Inquisitors sounds like a neat idea. Shows that other chapters and the Sisters of Battle really don't want to be lead around by Machine God-worshiping, perfection obsessed Marines who may readily turn their anger upon their allies for an act as simple as a tactical retreat.

You might want the Gk as well. The GK will do anything to destruy Chaos, much like the IH, but will do ANYTHING. And if the GK fall back, and those IH DARE attack them, well, they are as good as gone.


Maybe a rule that IH IC can join GK squads, but they never use the IC Ld, to show the GK superiority in terms of Command Structure.

Salted Diamond wrote:Where does it talk about dreads never going without a techmarine? Would like to know the source as I have never read that. I see problems with if they get one for each dread, will it be a single unit (dread and tech) or 2 separate? Together could cause problems with assault, but apart would make the tech any easy target, and he'd kinda need to stay close to the dread if that's the only thing he is allowed to work on.

In a lot of general SM fluff (my BA mention this) techmarines always go into battle with their vehicles. In one of the older vanilla sm dexes it mentions how the dreadnoughts are so hallowed they are always assigned at least 1 techmarine in battle should they fall (id quote it for you but I sold my old nilla marines dex when i got the new BA one) you'd count the two separately to make them weaker, because the techmarines job is to repair the dreadnought they're equipped to do just that, and so can repair him on like, a 4+ or so. kind of like how you always kill the kantus first in Gears of War, or how you shoot the glowing one in fallout 3, you'd wanna make the techmarine a target, especially since itll draw fire away from the dread since theres always a chance that immobillized or weapon destroyed will be repaired next turn

I like the thought of a razorback armed with something full auto and scarier than an HB (my tau laugh at your HB and it's three dinky shots...we give those to our worst units! and ours are better! XD) almost like a baal predator light or something...maybe a conversion beamer to reflect their perchant for tech?

Shh. Don't say Conversion Bea...Damn!

He doesn't want too many conversion Beamers.

Because too many CBs means Conversionspam. And that kind of ruins the fact of "incredibly rare pre-heresy weapons".

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Because too many CBs means Conversionspam. And that kind of ruins the fact of "incredibly rare pre-heresy weapons".

My thoughts exactly. We already have Iron Thanes, Magos, Weapons Platforms, and Venerable Dreads that can take them or a variation of them, lets leave it at that.

A Baal Pred is a LRR light. A HF Razor is a Baal Pred Light.


How a about a LRC Predator? Assault Cannon and Hurricaine Bolters sponsons?

Some very good ideas here. I would LOVE to see a codex with- *SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ the IRON HANDS BOOK*









Dreadnought Iron Father Gdolkin, like he was at the end of the book. That would be really awesome.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:Some very good ideas here. I would LOVE to see a codex with- *SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ the IRON HANDS BOOK*

Consider it done.

Why not more the dreadnought to troops instead of heavy and have it scoring but you can have more dreads than tactical squads like death company and their dreads. Also what about a scout equivilant. maybe a huge scout squad led by a techmarine training them for battle!

@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

QFT. The (slight) difference between IH and codex chapters is they hold their dreads higher for being free from the weakness of flesh and closer to unity with the Omsiah (sp). They also have their dreads in command positions where it seems most chapters they are only advisers.

James100 wrote:Why not more the dreadnought to troops instead of heavy and have it scoring but you can have more dreads than tactical squads like death company and their dreads. Also what about a scout equivilant. maybe a huge scout squad led by a techmarine training them for battle!

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

QFT. The (slight) difference between IH and codex chapters is they hold their dreads higher for being free from the weakness of flesh and closer to unity with the Omsiah (sp). They also have their dreads in command positions where it seems most chapters they are only advisers.

Yeah, the only type of Dreadnoughts the chapter has more of is Venerables and they tend to treat them with much higher levels of respect and it's not uncommon for armies to be lead by Venerable Dreadnoughts. This is already being represented in the codex by A) Allowing Venerable Dreadnoughts to be taken as Headquarters choices and B) Allowing you to take up to two Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice.

It's still possible to have a very mech-heavy army with this list, as Ironclads count as Elites while regular Dreads count as Heavy Support (thus allowing for a total of 10 Dreadnoughts to be taken via standard force org) for Iron Hands-like armies that do have more Dreads than normal, but the prior posters are right in that they don't have an excess of them.

Ironclads, are absolute Beasts in CC. I mean what a superb unit, with lots of high strength attacks resulting in lots of instant death to enemy units.

My Iron Hands Contemptor is pretty good. The Kheres Assault cannon is just brutal.

heavy 6, str 6, rending... Brutal

I'm still debating about the Dreadnoughts. One part of me wants to take the simple, easy way and just leave Ironclads as Elites and regular Dreads as Heavy Support.

The other part of me wants to remove them from the force organization entirely and make it so you can take one Ironclad or normal Dread for every Iron Thane, Iron Father, and Techmarine you have.

On the one hand, the removing from the F.O. would make more sense, with the Iron Hands. On the other, DREADSPAM WHEEEEEEE

Marik Law wrote:I'm still debating about the Dreadnoughts. One part of me wants to take the simple, easy way and just leave Ironclads as Elites and regular Dreads as Heavy Support.

The other part of me wants to remove them from the force organization entirely and make it so you can take one Ironclad or normal Dread for every Iron Thane, Iron Father, and Techmarine you have.

I would go for the simple route. It makes more sense with the Iron Hands fluff. Things that mess with the FOC often cause more problems then they are worth, IMHO.

Added in a new Troops choice: Neophyte Squad

Consists of 5 to 10 models in Power Armour with WS 3 and BS 3. Can include up to 10 Servitors as well. Squad is Fearless and always counts as Rending in close combat. Does not get the Combat Squads special rule.

Few other updates and new units as well...

- Added in an Iron Commander unit (basically a Captain). 100 Points, can take Bionics and a few Implants.
- Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.
- Added Gdolkin as a Special Character (need info on him, specifically his demeanor and what kind of equipment he has as a Dreadnought).

Sounds good to me. So what role would an Iron Commander fill in the Iron Hands' heirachy?

Captain?

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Sounds good to me. So what role would an Iron Commander fill in the Iron Hands' heirachy?

Deadshot wrote:Captain?

Correct. In my mind we can glimpse the Sons of Medusa somewhat for how the Iron Hands themselves structure. Basically each Clan is ruled by their Council Representatives, which consist of both Iron Thanes and Venerable Dreads, but the charge of actually carrying out the orders of the Council Representative's will is taken out by the Iron Commander.

Marik Law wrote: - Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.

I think re-naming techmarines is going overboard. Yes make the codex unique, but there is no need to re-name every unit. They are still "codex" marines. It talks in the Space Marine codex about how Blood Angels are "codex" with slight variation. I see Iron Hands as similar.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Marik Law wrote: - Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.

I think re-naming techmarines is going overboard. Yes make the codex unique, but there is no need to re-name every unit. They are still "codex" marines. It talks in the Space Marine codex about how Blood Angels are "codex" with slight variation. I see Iron Hands as similar.

This change was done as every time I see a Techmarine mentioned in either Iron Hands or Sons of Medusa lore, they are never directly titled as Techmarines, and the closest thing I ever find apart from Iron Thanes and Iron Fathers is Forge-Wrights. Hence why the change was made.

Also, with the rules for Blessings of the Omnissiash and Bolster Defenses changing to be better, it could perhaps avoid confusion (may change the name of the abilities as well).

UPDATE: Gonna start putting together the Codex soon, rough version will have placeholders for pictures but no pictures.

Starting the write-up of the Codex now. Has some pretty awesome units and customization in it, however I needed to ask everyone something.

Already planning on letting Iron Commanders in Terminator armour take Heavy Flamers, but what about Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers? Yay or nay to either?

I think both of those are fine, just be sure to cost them appropriately

I would have thought Assault Cannon was fine, less sold on the Cyclone Missile Launcher. When was the last time you ever saw a Captain/Chaplain with a Heavy Weapon? It's just not their role, a Flamer is an Assault weapon, and captains an assault unit. Same with Assault Cannon (Clues in title), I just don't see a Space Marine Captain using a Cyclone Terminator Missile Launcher. It's like a Captain driving a Vindicator or Razorback, its a support weapon for the troopers to use!

I disagree, actually. Terminators are Relentless, remember? The whole point of their weapon options is that these are the weapons they use while stomping implacably towards the enemy, hosing down the lines with fire before charging home and breaking the morale of the survivors by executing important-looking individuals gruesomely with their power fists. Can't you just picture a Terminator on a Space Hulk or in a boarding action (what the suits were originally designed for, IIRC) firing a frag missile right into the middle of the enemy and immediately charging after it? He doesn't care about the shrapnel, he's wearing Terminator armor!

That being so, I think Iron Hands Captains should be able to take any of the weapons any Terminator can; heavy flamers, assault cannons, and CMLs included.

An Iron Father (Captain/Chaplain) is a CC orientated character he is neither a Devastator Sergeant nor Captain of the Devastator Company. If he took a suit of TDA I would expect a SS + TH or PW or RB with extra options (Aux Grenade launcher) I would not expect him to be a Heavy Support Terminator with a Cyclone ML and a SB. Space HULK is neither here nor there, and if it were the case then Space Hulk (the original) never let your Captain have a heavy/assault weapon anyway! You are right about the TDA design idea for confined fights like tunnels and hulks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour#.TyA2D6VUzRM

It's not practical for an Iron Father to have a Cyclone, neither does it take advantage of his Initiative or number of attacks, a lightning Claw or PW would be more appropriate with a SS.

I would see an argument for an Iron Hand Techmarine in Terminator Armour, with a Conversion beamer and Cyclone ML. He would be a heavy Support option. But an Ironfather is a CC leader not a Devastator. Heavy Flamer or Assault cannon I could live with but Cyclone terminator missile launcher is a bit OTT!

In tabletop terms, you're correct.

What I'm pointing out is that, in fluff terms, there's no such thing as a 'heavy support Terminator'; or, to be more precise, Terminator armor is neither designed nor, as far as can be determined, commonly used for a long-range support role. A storm bolter is deliberately designed to be a rapid-fire, close-range weapon; if we compare a bolter to a standard battle rifle, a storm bolter is a submachine gun. They uniformly carry powerful, dedicated close-combat weapons as well; remember, even a basic power fist is terrifyingly potent, extremely rare, and requires specialized training to use effectively. Terminators are not hang-back-and-shoot units, they're assault shock troops, even when equipped with CMLs. Now, statistics on the tabletop seem somewhat conflicted about this; for instance, they give storm bolters only a slightly-higher ROF than a normal bolter, and a longer effective range. But when you look at the background, it seems clear that even Terminator heavy weapons were designed to be used on the move, in close-quarters, as a prelude to hand-to-hand combat.

Now; you might well expect that most people who took an Iron Father WOULDN'T take a CML, since as you mentioned that would be wasting his better close-combat stats. . . but why not give them the option? No real reason not to.

Okay, I will conceed your point that stopping people doing something stupid is against their human rights.

My real issue is can you name me any Space Marine Captain, or Special Character equivalent that sports a Heavy Weapon?

No, I don't think I can. Mostly they carry pure close-combat weaponry, though some of the special characters have a ranged weapon.

But if we're now arguing that we need to remove options that don't agree with the fluff, there are a lot of OTHER changes that need to be made in every single MEQ codex. . .

Hey nevermind, maybe this will work. It will certainly be fun to model a termie Captain with a Cyclone, now I need to find a willing opponent that will let me use Mariks codex .

mwnciboo wrote:An Iron Father (Captain/Chaplain) is a CC orientated character he is neither a Devastator Sergeant nor Captain of the Devastator Company. If he took a suit of TDA I would expect a SS + TH or PW or RB with extra options (Aux Grenade launcher) I would not expect him to be a Heavy Support Terminator with a Cyclone ML and a SB. Space HULK is neither here nor there, and if it were the case then Space Hulk (the original) never let your Captain have a heavy/assault weapon anyway! You are right about the TDA design idea for confined fights like tunnels and hulks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour#.TyA2D6VUzRM

It's not practical for an Iron Father to have a Cyclone, neither does it take advantage of his Initiative or number of attacks, a lightning Claw or PW would be more appropriate with a SS.

I would see an argument for an Iron Hand Techmarine in Terminator Armour, with a Conversion beamer and Cyclone ML. He would be a heavy Support option. But an Ironfather is a CC leader not a Devastator. Heavy Flamer or Assault cannon I could live with but Cyclone terminator missile launcher is a bit OTT!

I've been constantly re-reading the Iron Hands lore and there actually seems to be a difference between Captains (Iron Commanders) and Chaplains (Iron Fathers), so I've included both units in the army. Iron Commanders have the widest array of options as far as HQ units go, but really don't have any special rules apart from the normal stuff, where as Iron Fathers have less options but better special rules.

As for the verdict on the Terminator weapons, I've decided to include Heavy Flamers and Assault Cannons, but leave out Cyclone Missile Launchers. It has nothing to do with a lore standpoint but more to do with an army composition standpoint. Both weapons are fairly close range, so if you add the unit to, say, a Devastator squad, it's not really going to add any additional punch to that unit, but a CML gives them another volley of missiles and makes the squad that much more able to just decimate an entire unit at range.

The unit I'm most looking forward to designing right now is the Opus Machina Thane. Basically he's an Iron Thane or Magos that's gone completely overboard on the bionics and is essentially mostly machine. 40mm base, relentless, and some other nasty special rules. Should be a very interesting conversion piece (walker legs, tank legs, whatever your imagination can think up).

Just call him Vader and you're golden!

mwnciboo wrote:Okay, I will conceed your point that stopping people doing something stupid is against their human rights.

My real issue is can you name me any Space Marine Captain, or Special Character equivalent that sports a Heavy Weapon?

Huron Blackheart has a Heavy Flamer

Touche! Good call, any others? Plus he's renegade that marches to the tune of his own drum.

GKGM and Captains can takw Incinerators ( a heavy flamer with+1 str), a psilincer (like a psychic gatling gun) or a psycannon( an assault cannon with +1 str).

Subscribed.

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Subscribed.

Thanks!



Additionally, I found some juicy oldness I could potentially make new...ness. Legio Cybernetica units, anyone?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/8c/Robots.jpg

I like to think that an OM Thane should be mechanised, but still Marine-shaped, whilst an OM Magos should be shaped more "mechanically", like a Dreadnought...
kk i'll stop rambling now

I was reading a 4th Edition Black Templar Codex... They had 2 Wound techmarines with the option of TDA and a SS (including being able to have a servo arm with the TDA!). So thats another PF attack? Craziness but very interesting.

So I'm going to start running my IH's with 4th ed BT's and FAQ. The holy orb of antioch is insane.

I've been thinking long and hard about two things when working on this Codex: Terminators and Dreadnoughts.

After much debate and thought I've decided that Terminators will definitely be their own unit instead of simply being a Sergeant Upgrade. To me, from a lore standpoint, it doesn't make sense that a chapter which prides itself of its technological prowess and which probably has a fair number of personal Forges has such a low number of suits of Terminator armour. Thus Morlock Terminator squads are in, however they won't simply be just a bog-standard Terminator squad. You can keep them as a single unit OR you can break them up to lead other units, much like Space Wolves' Wolf Guard. They will also confer bonuses to the unit they join if they use this route as well.

Much like with Terminators, it didn't make much sense to me that Dreadnoughts were something that a forge-heavy chapter would be low on. I mean the Istavaan III Dropsite Massacre happened thousands of years ago, you'd think that with their forges and technical and engineering prowess they'd easily be able to regain their lost wargear in that time span, if not make an excess of them. For this reason, Dreadnoughts will not be rare in the Iron Hands. There willbe Medusa Dreadnoughts (aka Medusa Pattern Dreadnoughts) which can be taken as Elites or Heavy Support and will have different options depending on whether they were taken as Elites or Heavy Support.

With that said, however, I pose the following question to you all: do you think Iron Hands Dreadnoughts should function differently than normal Dreadnoughts?

Let me explain this question a bit. To a normal chapter Dreadnought, it is essentially what is left of a Space Marine piloting a vehicle. However, with an Iron Hand it isn't so much a vehicle as it is an extension of that Marine's body as most Iron Hands that are interred in a Dreadnought are little more than a brain heavily hardwired into the Dreadnought itself. Do you think this would bring them more in line with a normal set of attributes, kind of like a Nemesis Dreadknight, or do you think they should still be represented as vehicles?

I love your reasoning above.

On the subject of Dreadnoughts, maybe the IH would view a Dreadnought in much the same way that normal marines view a Chaplain?

e.g Maybe a special rule like re-roll to hit when within 12" or something?

The reason I say this is that the IH would be in total awe and complete devotion of a Dreadnought.

What would a Medusa Dreadnought be? Conversion Beamer with DCCW Lightning Claw? Or two Power fists and Magna Grapple ?

mwnciboo wrote:I love your reasoning above.

On the subject of Dreadnoughts, maybe the IH would view a Dreadnought in much the same way that normal marines view a Chaplain?

e.g Maybe a special rule like re-roll to hit when within 12" or something?

The reason I say this is that the IH would be in total awe and complete devotion of a Dreadnought.

What would a Medusa Dreadnought be? Conversion Beamer with DCCW Lightning Claw? Or two Power fists and Magna Grapple ?

Medusa Dreadnoughts basically have a wide variety of options available to them. If taken as an Elites they have a wide variety of close combat weapon options and extra wargear options. If taken as Heavy Support they have access to a lot more ranged weaponry. Also yes, Heavy Conversion Beamers are options.

What do you think about what I proposed about the Dreadnoughts? Do you think they should be treated as vehicles (with the normal three Armour Values) or more like a unit (with Toughness and Wounds)? I went into detail with it a bit more in my previous post.

Yeah sorry, I like the Nemesis Dread Idea. It's not so much a walker as an physical extension of an IH conciousness so I think you are spot on.

Well, just keeping them as dreads, albeit special ones, would be less likely to have people saying lolwut?.

Deadshot wrote:Well, just keeping them as dreads, albeit special ones, would be less likely to have people saying lolwut?.

Perhaps have them have the same appearance/look as Dreadnoughts but call them something else?

I think you can leave them vehicles, but remove stunned and shaken or any results that affect the crew.

The reasoning being that a Dreadnought should be immune to small arms fire (unlike an MC) and still vulnerable to a single shot from an AT weapon (unlike an MC).

But since the "crew" isn't a crew but is really a body, then remove stunned and shaken - I can't stun or shake your body.

I quite like that, except that it's not the body that gets stunned or shaken it's invariably the mind. The sheer shock of the whole thing, it's a survival thing to shut down all unnecessary functions when in shock (read sensory overload). As the pilot has a mind and is not an AI, then he would still suffer.

That aside, I still like the idea of an unshakable dreadnought, maybe you could call it the "INDOMITABLE" pattern or something. I think a Ironclad Dreadnought as a HQ choice would be a nice addition. It would mean you wouldn't need the MOTF to get the change to the FOC.

Well if super insane dreads like DCD get to ignore them.I don't see why Medusan ones can't provided there is a fluff explanatio.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I think you can leave them vehicles, but remove stunned and shaken or any results that affect the crew.

The reasoning being that a Dreadnought should be immune to small arms fire (unlike an MC) and still vulnerable to a single shot from an AT weapon (unlike an MC).

But since the "crew" isn't a crew but is really a body, then remove stunned and shaken - I can't stun or shake your body.

That sounds reasonable enough.

Hey Marik, I've been considering undertaking something similar to this, and you've been great inspiration. The Chapter Creator is a lot of fun too!

So far my thoughts involve the standard, limited TDA, clan influenced org swaps, Dred HQ ideas, and more access to Tech marines.

But I wanted to get your input on some other ideas.

-I was thinking of keeping combat squads but dropping combat tactics. Not exactly the most sensible of Smurfs after all.

- 1st level bionics would translate to +6 FNP and invulnerable save, it would also mean that the squad has to roll twice and pick lowest on run rolls, consolidations and sweeps.

Not sure how much more units should cost because of it.

- 2nd level of bionics would grant normal FNP as well as the +6 invulnerable save.

-Any level of bionics comes with an ability that lets them go "Beyond even superhuman limitations" and can be expended, once per unit, per game, to give the unit acute senses or relentless upon passing a dice-roll (+4?) until the end of the turn it's used. I'd assume certain special rules or upgrades would allow options that would manipulate the temporary special effect or the dice-roll or the number of times it can be exhausted.

- More and access to lesser seen/ new weapons than in the SM codex due to closer relationship with Mars and tinkering bent.

- Iron hands tacticals get access to a pretty standard heavy weapon, or a flamer or SM Grenade launcher at the 5 man mark, and have access to your usual special weapons at the 10 man unlocked weapon swap. Actually I'm sort of considering allowing them to have tactical squads with 2 heavy weapons in them at the 10 man mark

5 man access to: Lascannon, Autocannon, missile launcher, multi melta, heavy bolter, flamer, SM grenade Launcher

10 man access to: Melta gun, Plasma gun, SM grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, Missile launcher, Lascannon

Tell me if you think I should limit it more strictly. I like that the big shift is being unable to make your standard good multipurpose, mobile, midranged MSU squad, for having greater access to heavy weapons at 10 men, or being able to make a watered down 10 man mobile mid ranged team.

-Vehicle squadrons where there was no option before

-Not sure if it should be troops or not, but there will be an "Iron Fist" style assault squad, which will probably not replace the jump pack unit (I've seen renditions of iron hands jump infantry) that will probably come with a transport and the option to choose SM Shotguns or bolt pistol and close combat weapon. Probably come with more special weapon upgrades, but integrate special close combat weapon upgrades into the selections in a similar way to the Black templars crusader squads.

-New loadouts for Razorback and Predator.

-More vehicle upgrades.

-Ways to get better repair rolls on transports.

-Sargent that gives a tactical squad a kind of sternguard ammo.

- Might reduce scout access, and bike access, but really not sure. Might have vetran scouts and bikers.

- Facillitate less reliance on standard spacemarine energy weapons. More gritty expoldy projectiles.

-Lots of ways to make things stubborn.

- guys who are particularly good with powefists

Please if you have any thoughts on these ideas or negotiating them into a codex I'd love to hear em!

I'll just reply here for you, Lucre, instead of Quoting since you typed out quite a bit.

1) In the Iron Hands Codex I'm making, Combat Tactics is most certainly gone and Combat Squads is staying (for now at least).

2) My Bionics in the Iron Hands Codex confer a Feel No Pain save ranging from a 6+ (most widespread) to a 4+ save (rarest), depending on the unit. Units with Bionics, however, cannot run or make sweeping advances.

3) I'm representing the vast array of Bionics with Bionic Upgrades. These are conferable only to units that have Bionics and gives them certain added abilities or attribute increases.

4) Most definitely taking the approach of Iron Hands having rarer kinds wargear and weapons with this Codex.

5) I have removed Scout Squads from the Iron Hands Codex. Instead they have been replaced with Grootslang Devastator Squads (Elite Devastator squad equipped with Sniper Rifles, able to take a few Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers, and having various Scout-like special rules) and Initiate Squads (Troops choices, cheaper than Iron Hands Tactical Squads and come with some funky special rules, but have a lower WS and BS and do not have Bionics).

6) As for new loadouts, I have Medusa patterns for Dreadnoughts, Predators, and Land Raiders, which basically allow you to create a wide variety of different types of those vehicles, representing that the Iron Hands have access to virtually all schematics from various chapters or are technologically savvy enough to reverse-engineer or mimic the loadouts.

7) More vehicle upgrades is definitely a given.

8) Iron Hands will have an improved version of Blessings of the Omnissiah which works much better than the standard SM version.

9) As I said earlier, as least with my Codex I've completely removed Scout units (4+ save units).

10) As for Stubborn, my Iron Hands Codex does away with ATSKNF and, instead, all units are simply Fearless but can make a special roll against their Leadership value so they voluntarily fall back and regroup (they're undaunted, but not stupid). I may replace this with ATSKNF, Stubborn, and the ability to pass or fail any Morale test they are called upon to take. Haven't quite decided yet.

11) I do love your idea on having the different Clans mess about with special rules or force organization, just going to be hard to accomplish. The Necrons gave me an idea that maybe they don't screw around with force org or special rules, but instead give better wargear options to certain units.

Ya, yours has a more total approach, I'm trying to find a way of negotiating around that and keeping them a little closer to codex adherence, but I get the feeling you might know some things I do not.

I'm just bad at assessing how to judge these "soft" bonuses and problems I'm giving them against each other and then against the standard.

I was hoping I could help contribute to your goal here with something to bring to the table, but the more I put pen to paper, the more I felt a little in over my head.

I also hate the idea of messing with the force organization chart too much, I don't like how hard some codecies lean on that mechanic, but I would be very happy if I could implement one or two subtler changes that give character to the way a clan likes to do battle when they have it their way.

For some reason, I see iron hands with an awful lot of scoring units. Maybe not everything being troops, because that often makes for flavourless abuse, but maybe scoring other selections or some ability that lets you shift it around.

Iron Hands have never been about tricky generalship to me, reserve rolls, outflanking, they are about doing straightforward jobs in a brutally efficient way, though I do believe they should have things with tactical rule warping generalship powers. Maybe comms and bionic information sharing could play a role in this.

I just hope 6th Edition C:SM doesn't rain on our parade too much. It would be welcome, albeit annoying late, if they suddenly recognised our favourite Pre-Heresy Chapter and added a few special rules, characters and vehicles. I am prepared to be sorely disappointed.

Keep up the good work MARIK.

Okay, it's rumour at this point but god does it look good for Iron Hands and something tells me some of the GW devs peruse the Dakka Dakka proposed rules forums.

Rumour has it of the release of several Iron Hands plastic and finecast kits being released next year by GW (Land Raider Medusa, Iron Father Maalthun, etc). If this stuff is true I am very, very excited.

Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

Marik Law wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

That saddens my heart, It will be sad to see the BT rolled into the Marine Codex, they deserve their own, as they are way too different to standard marines

redkommando wrote:

Marik Law wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

That saddens my heart, It will be sad to see the BT rolled into the Marine Codex, they deserve their own, as they are way too different to standard marines

It may not be true since there was whispers that a BT Codex was being worked on, but god only knows at this point. The Codex books seem to be getting bigger (Codex Chaos Space Marines seems to have all the units from the prior Codex and a bunch more, so this wouldn't surprise me one bit), so they may be able to slam Black Templars into C:SM without harming them too badly. Perhaps giving credence to chapter customization in some way, shape, or form. Would also be extremely nice to be able to take Power Weapons for Terminators instead of Power Fists and to take more assault-oriented Troops choices.

I just want my Terminators leading my other squads (some finecast mini called a First Hand Terminator is being released, one model in a blister, here's hoping).

GW did go Mad for Black Templars in 4th Ed and everyone went where the hell has this come from? It was rammed down everyone's throat, but I cannot see BT getting a Codex. Maybe Codex Son's of Dorn (Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists & Black Templars) otherwise it's just another expense for GW to update. They should be consolidating all the codex and reducing the amount of spurious SM Codices so that they can spend more time updating the Xenos ones. This has been the main reason that Xeno's have not have the attention lavished on that they deserve, because every other book is a bloody SM one!

Work has officially begun on my Codex Iron Hands book!

One thing I'm looking for from you, the faithful Iron Hands players, is help with the special characters. Most of the wikis on the net have very little information about Iron Hands named marines, this includes not providing any information on wargear, weapons, or their tactical style. Thus I'm reaching out to you guys to help me out. Know of the weapons/wargear or tactics a certain named Iron Hands marine has? Let me know!

From my Research..

Notable Members

Post Heresy
Kardan Stronos - Chapter Master of the Iron Hands (BROKEN FLUFF!!)
Bannus - warleader of the Kaargul Clan
Arven Rauth - Clan-Commander of Clan Raukaan.
Talumech - Venerable Dreadnought
Axagoras - Venerable Dreadnought
Paullian Blantar - A former Iron Father of the Kaargul Clan (Deceased)
Gdolkin - Iron Father
Naim Morvox - Brother-Sergeant of Clave Arx (3rd Squad), Clan Raukaan.
Telach - Chief Librarian of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)
Hervel Khatir - Iron Father of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)

I would recommend 5 types of special rule types, each character would have only one of these special rules on the standard HQ :- All special Characters should have a SERVO ARM.
1st Bionic Redundancy (e.g FNP him and the Unit that is with him)
2nd style Venerable Dreanoughts should be secondary HQ OPTION.
3rd Grants Relentless instead of chapter tactics.
4th Targeting Bionics (Has the "BOLTER DRILL" special rule)
5th Comms Relays/Jammer (+1 Reserves, Enemy Scatter 3D6 for any Deep strike or ordnance/ artillery strike.

 mwnciboo wrote:
From my Research..

Notable Members

Post Heresy
Kardan Stronos - Chapter Master of the Iron Hands (BROKEN FLUFF!!)
Bannus - warleader of the Kaargul Clan
Arven Rauth - Clan-Commander of Clan Raukaan.
Talumech - Venerable Dreadnought
Axagoras - Venerable Dreadnought
Paullian Blantar - A former Iron Father of the Kaargul Clan (Deceased)
Gdolkin - Iron Father
Naim Morvox - Brother-Sergeant of Clave Arx (3rd Squad), Clan Raukaan.
Telach - Chief Librarian of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)
Hervel Khatir - Iron Father of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)

I would recommend 5 types of special rule types, each character would have only one of these special rules on the standard HQ :- All special Characters should have a SERVO ARM.
1st Bionic Redundancy (e.g FNP him and the Unit that is with him)
2nd style Venerable Dreanoughts should be secondary HQ OPTION.
3rd Grants Relentless instead of chapter tactics.
4th Targeting Bionics (Has the "BOLTER DRILL" special rule)
5th Comms Relays/Jammer (+1 Reserves, Enemy Scatter 3D6 for any Deep strike or ordnance/ artillery strike.

Kardan Stronos is only mistaken as a Chapter Master by the rest of the Imperium, he is simply the Clan Council's Representative towards the other Imperial factions, hence the confusion.

As for the mentioned special characters, any suggestions on wargear or tactics they employ?

For Rule #1: Virtually every unit either has or can upgrade to have Bionics (Feel No Pain but can't run, sweeping advance, turbo-boost, or overwatch).

For Rule #2: I'm doing something cool instead of Venerable Dreadnoughts this time around. Look forward to Iron Council Elders.

For Rule #3: I don't know, army-wide Relentless is kind of very impressive and could potentially be overpowered.

For Rule #4: Bionic Upgrades will be available to all independent characters and some Sergeants. One of which is Bionic Eyes which gives Night Vision and Split Fire to half the squad he's in.

For Rule #5: Hmm, not sure about this one, but will definitely consider it.

I really like the Bionic Eyes, Fire Control upgrade, especially for Devastators.

I would say that some Special Characters are ripe for conversion as a semi-proxy. So for example Pedro Kantor, keep his STAT line, the Powerfist = Servo Arm, Dorns Arrow = Bionic Stormbolter, add in all of special rules except for the Sternguard one. Replace that with a "Unit he is with becomes Relentless" or Lysanders "Bolter Drill". Keep him at 175pts.

Alternatively because he has a spare hand, give him a Storm Shield, with his Storm Bolter and Servo Arm and call the whole thing 200pts? He would be say "Arven Rauth" .

Maybe a Gdolkin conversion based on the Ultramarine Ortan Cassius stat line and price (Wargear = Power Maul & Mechanicum Refractor shield, as he is not Granted a Crozius or Rosarius), with a Servo Arm and modified special rules?

Relentless is not nearly as potent on troop choices as it used to be. Maybe the ability to assault after firing rapid or heavy weapons would do it? Maybe an improvement on snap fired shots? Say to +5?

Something about the cold calm and connectedness of a machine?

If the rumors are correct for CSM squads, having equal or greater access to heavy than to special weapons sounds really neat to me. Maybe that would work as an unlock?
Imagine a 10 man tactical squad lead by a vet in terminator armor with 2 missile launchers and a typhoon?

Some of my rough drafts also included all sorts of tactical squad Sergeant special characters. One of them gave the squad the Stern-Guard special ammo, another had powerfists he could punch with at initiative 2.

Power Fists hitting at Initiative 2 would be IRON HANDS indeed!

Here's a teaser of the units in the new version of the Codex, since you have all been so patient. Also they have a somewhat Space Wolf-ish special rule that allows them to take two choices for every one HQ (figured it made sense since Clans tend to have much larger Command structures than Companies in other chapters).

HQ
+ Vaylund Cal
+ Iron Captain
+ Iron Father
+ (Iron Guard)
+ (Servitor Henchmen)
+ Librarian
+ Council Elder
+ Apothecary (3 as single HQ, can't take as mandatory)

ELITES
+ Morlock Terminators
+ Veteran Clave
+ Scout Clave
+ Techmarine (can take three as a single Elites choice)
+ Medusa Dreadnought (can be taken as both Elites choices and Heavy Support choices)

TROOPS
+ Tactical Clave
+ Neophyte Clave
+ Servitor Maniple (can take one for each Tactical Clave or Neophyte Clave you take)

FAST ATTACK
+ Garm Assault Clave
+ Cerastes Bike Clave
+ Attack Bike Clave
+ Preta Land Speeder Squadron
+ Stormtalon Gunship

HEAVY SUPPORT
+ Grootslang Devastator Clave
+ Weapons Platform
+ Robot Maniple
+ Iron Knight
+ Medusa Predator
+ Whirlwind
+ Vindicator
+ Medusa Land Raider

Ooh, I'm liking what units you've chosen to add