So as not to derail the other thread...
how exactly are the IG overpowered? the AV 12 BS3 fliers? The T3 Armour 5+ range 12" meltavets? Stop me if you've started pissing yourself yet.

It is posible to put together a very strong list with the IG codex...
Not OP but still very strong.

Not OP, just very competitive and versatile.

Those melta vets that are scoring and cost very little? The fairly durable hulls (AV12>>AV11) they sit inside? The free orders that TL those meltas when you need them most? The cheap Manticore and hydra, which combine to form a hugely powerful HS slot? The cheap as chips scouting fast skimmer with 3 TL LC?

Then you gtet the other side of broken - terrible internal balance. Ogryn? Useless, 99% of the time. Stormies? Ditto. LR? Why bother, a manticore does it better, and 4 shots really isnt a meaningful limitation.

Have a search, and understand the topic a bit more before posting threads. "Leafblower" is a term you shoudl look at as well.

As an IG player, it would be somewhat hippocritical if I did not answer this truthfully as much as I hammer on some other armies.

Individually, very few units are overpowered. Primarily the Vendetta. Marbo can be abusive, and the Hydra (while fine against most opponents) can be *very* abusive against some armies (lol DE).

However, collectively, the sheer amount of stuff, particularly armor, that IG can field is overwhelming for many armies. It's not by any means impossible to field nearly 17 independent AV12 vehicles and 80 infantry in a 2000pt game. Some armies can't deal with those numbers.

That said, it's difficult to see IG as the worst offenders of this edition. Up there? Sure. But they have lots of key weaknesses or gaps that other 5E books don't (psychic defense, "take test or remove from table abilities", anything rending, close combat in general, etc)

However, the bigger thing is that the tools and methods one uses to defeat a powerful IG army don't work well against the more popular armies, and what works well defeating them is often detrimental against IG (IG don't care about your massively powerful lightning claw wielding CC unit, far cheaper units will kill our infantry just fine, and you'll need powerfists to do anything to the tanks). This fact frustrates many people. Individually, IG units are very easily destroyed. A basic space marine is a lethal threat to every single model in an IG army. However, there is a volume that is difficult to properly account for and quality of power is often wasted overkill against an Imperial Guard army.

nosferatu1001 wrote: "Leafblower" is a term you shoudl look at as well.

I wish this term would die. I hate BOLS so much for that stupid name that gets applied to anything with a chimera.

You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

Joey wrote:So as not to derail the other thread...
how exactly are the IG OP? the AV 12 BS3 fliers? The T3 Armour 5+ range 12" meltavets? Stop me if you've started pissing yourself yet.

Let's start with your "AV 12 BS3 Flier"

Are you referring to the one that has 3 Twin linked Lascannons on it? The one that is also a fast Skimmer, and comes 1-3 a Squad? that has Scout and Extra armor. I think this is the same one hat can even drop Melta Vets off it. And it's points cost is CHEAP.

You've also got these fantastic things called Hydras, that completely destroy Skimmers. These Fancy things have 2 Sets of twinlinked 72' Autocanons, that Ignore flat out cover saves for skimmers. These also can come 1-3 per slot. And they are cheap.

Then you've got the Manticore, everyone's favorite. With it's storm eagle rockets, and entire board range, it makes a mockery of everything.

There is also the Chimera, which has a front AV of 12, and come standard with a Multi-laser and a heavy bolter, for only ten points more than a Razorback.

And that's just the tip of the iceburg.

Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

Two things, First, you can fit more actually, 59 tanks (lololololol platoons), Second, if you're talking about 9 AV14 tanks with 9 skimmers and whatnot in one army, you're talking about 3/4/5000pt armies or higher.

So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

Trolling or just noob?
I suppose you take large amounts of marines and just march them across the board? It's the honorable thing to do, after all.

AP4 is competently irrelevant against tanks. Also, the manticore will still kill almost 1/3 of the marines under it's D3 LARGE BLASTS. Anywhere on the board. Please, let me know how you're intending to shoot through the wall it's sitting behind.

Also, the Manticore is exactly 10 points more expensive than the Regular Leman Russ. That's just the Leman Russ with no sponsons, so only a heavy bolter and battle cannon. The Manticore will on average be cheaper than a Leman.

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

All GW products are pricey. £40 is only the price if you can't be bothered to convert them.
So Chimera are so OP that using them is "cowardice"? I guess I'll never take a competitive unit again.
The Manticore drops up to 3 S10 pie plates in one turn anywhere on the board. That's extremely powerful.

So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.

The price for the Models is completely irrelevant.

And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.

One Again though, completely irrelevant. For the Tournament scene, you don't get a choice who you play against.

The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

If your only view is that the Manticore is useless against MEQs, therefore that it's completely useless, then you really need to take a look at your tactics. The Manticore is one of the best vehicles in the game, and has a massive amount of uses.

What your post boils down to, is that you don't spam some of the stronger options on your codex.

The Fact of the matter is though, that those options are still there though and many many players max their builds on these things.

So you have no idea what a competitive list looks like and actively dismiss the component elements of it, no understanding of what makes Manticores good or how to kill Marines and apparently think cost is an object.

You probably aren't qualified to comment.

For the love of god, don't even get me started on psyker battle squads.

Boom, leadership 1.

Do 1 wound from a barrage weapon.

HAVE FUN PASSING THAT LEADERSHIP TEST LOLOLOLOL

There's a couple things I'd like to address here. Yes there are some very valid points, but at the same time methinks some people are overlooking things and overconcentrating on others.

Yes the vendetta is broken we all know this, however it's difficult to argue the same about the basic Valkyrie, and squadroning those things is immensely punitive (not to mention makes EA pointless).

With regards to Hydras, yeah, against Light skimmers relying on moving fast for defense it's brutal, that's exactly what it was designed to be good against. Against AV12 skimmers they aren't much better than anything else really unless again, the skimmer is relying on a flat out cover save for survival (in which case the AV12 still helps a lot). They're good, but they don't "completely destroy" anything in a medium tank range just because it's a skimmer. They've also got poor firepower mobility and vulnerable flanks.

And Yup, they're cheap, like every other autocannon platform in the game. You'll notice the other two big ones are both SM units with higher BS, and either better armor/more weapon options (predator) or dreads that have better accuracy, mobility, a combat ability (rifleman dreads are wonderful tarpits) and can take pods. lets not get into Psyrifleman dreads which are as bad as Vendettas.

As to the Manticore, much of the IG HS section can hit anything on the board, nothing unique there, it's also got a rather noticeable minimum range (if you're halfway up the board, you're safe!), has a high chance to whiff entirely, and is done after game turn 4. It's also lacking that magical AP3. It's a great tank killer, but given the relative inaccuracy of ordnance barrage weapons and it's random shot number, it's not the "zomg greatest" tank destroyer ever either. Dawn of War deployment effectively neutralizes it for that all important first turn as well (can't fire ordnance barrage if you moved), so 1/3rd of games it's significantly less effective. It's good, but not broken. People see D3 S10 and forget that means 1-3, and that as an ordnance barrage weapon, it whiffs a lot, has limited fire and is often left somewhat gimped in dawn of war deployments.

On to the Chimera. It has side AV10 and only a rear hatch (meaning to disembark infantry into a strike position if they need to, it needs to show its one good armor facing directly away from an opponent, as a CSM player that side armor on rhino/rbacks is incredibly useful), is BS3 and has no twin linked weapons or anything with a decent AP, and carries dudes with cardboard for armor and whose basic gun is about as threatening as a wet noodle.

Nobody seemed to care that the Chimera was front AV12 with two heavy weapons until this codex when it went from awful to useable

Vets honestly aren't too bad, certainly next to stuff like Grey Hunters, INQ Henchmen (even more min maxable) and GK troops it's hard to see them as broken, especially if not paired with a chimera as they evaporate if on foot and are relegated to suicide squad status if in a valk.

I'm surprised nobody else mentioned Marbo yet (unless I missed it). That guy is hit or miss, but when he's useful, he's obscenely useful.

People just hatin on a dex that isn't marines. Thats all.

Well.... and the Vend are a bit (alot) on the inexpensive side.

Some also hate that their army of super bad ass close combat bad asses with the swords/fists of doom get this:

"Well.... you hit me on a 3+.. and you wound me on a 2+... or with your standard marine over there its a 3+. How much did you pay for the powerfist again?oh? no armour save. Dang. I use my 5+ save all the time against bolters. Whats changed again?"

Followed by:

"Did I mention I'm stubborn Ld 9 with a reroll (and a dead guardsman)"

Grey Knight force weapons kill us in 1 wound. Just like everything else. Really. who else has more then 1 wound in our army other then the Company commander, special characters, and some stupid elite choices?

Chimeras > rhinos (course then again piling a regular squad out of a chimera usually creates a scene similar to Omaha beach during D-Day)

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JB_Man wrote:

It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

I'll say this AGAIN for people who confuse meltavets with assault terminators.
Their effective range is 12 inches. They are toughness 3. Their save is 5+. They are leadership 8. If you have difficulty killing them/making them flee, you're probably a piss poor commander.

Joey wrote:chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JB_Man wrote:

It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

I'll say this AGAIN for people who confuse meltavets with assault terminators.
Their effective range is 12 inches. They are toughness 3. Their save is 5+. They are leadership 8. If you have difficulty killing them/making them flee, you're probably a piss poor commander.

No one confuses meltavets for terminators...
Meltavets are 100 points and BS4. They are used to break enemy behicles. They are very good at it. They are also very cheap.

Joey wrote:chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.

Wow, if you want to stay in complete blissful ignorance, then don't start threads to waste peoples time.

Several members (Vakathi in particular) have presented, well thought and reasoned explanations why the IG is at the top of the heap. You are just choosing to ignore them, and remain completely ignorant.

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Sasori wrote:

Wow, if you want to stay in complete blissful ignorance, then don't start threads to waste peoples time.

Several members (Vakathi in particular) have presented, well thought and reasoned explanations why the IG is at the top of the heap. You are just choosing to ignore them, and remain completely ignorant.

ad hom.
QED.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Yeah, unupgraded space marines will also rip through melta-vets. 9 bolter shots, 6 hit, 4 wound. That's enough for a morale check at -1.
As I said earlier, sounds to me like people don't know basic tactics. That unit melts vehicles at 12" range? Then make sure your vehicles stay the hell away from it.

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Joey wrote:So other than hyrda and vendetta, both of which cost £40 to buy.
And spamming chimeras is just cowardice. I don't want to play like that, and i wouldn't want to play against anyone who did.
The manticore is AP4 (useless against MEQ) and armour 12/10/10. At more points than a Leman Russ I would NEVER take one.

What YOU would or would not play/buy. Means nothing in this case, as you ask in you OP why is IG though of as overpowered.

Joey wrote:
As I said earlier, sounds to me like people don't know basic tactics. That unit melts vehicles at 12" range? Then make sure your vehicles stay the hell away from it.

Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

Joey wrote:chimeras are supposed to be better than rhinos though.
And as I suspected, unless you're playing in a tournament or have some massive pent up unreleased frustrated sex drive (as a lot of people on these forums do), IG are NOT over-powered.

I do, however that's off topic.

Most the 5th edition IoM codexes are overpowered compared to most of the Xenian codexes (that had been changing with release of the DEldar and possibly the Newcrons.

The reasons are simple: IoM armies tend to have an excellent variety of equipment, units, special rules, and characters, with a good balance across the different FOC slots. Things are generally quite cheap compared to 3rd and 4th edition codexes.

Horst wrote:
Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

You have difficulty destroying transports with side armour 10? aw bless (:

Horst wrote:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

Joey wrote:

Horst wrote:
Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

You have difficulty destroying transports with side armour 10? aw bless (:

In theoryhammer land, it's easy to do.
If you're never presented with a side armor 10 shot, its pretty hard to do.
And when there's 3-4 of them, it's harder.
And on a board where your movement is limited (gee, that's all of them) it's harder.

Joey wrote:

Horst wrote:
Again, do not be ignorant for the sake of trying to win your argument. Chimeras don't melt units at a 12" range, they melt units at a 20" range (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" melta shot). Given that a good guard army will have 3-4 melta chimeras in it, that means there is no approach you can take towards them that will avoid being melta'd to death.

This leaves you with 2 choices... shoot the guard (not a winning option) or eat melta shots as you try to get past them.

Both options kinda suck.

You have difficulty destroying transports with side armour 10? aw bless (:

Horst wrote:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

Once again, I can only assume your being ignorant on purpose, because nobody is truly this in the dark when it comes to the game.

Chimeras have armor 12. Saying things like "They have armor 10 on the side!" means less than nothing to me, because if you take enough chimeras, you just make a wall of armor 12, and you have no shots to the sides available. If you are an extremely FAST vehicle, then yes, you can get side shots. Alas, land raiders are not. Hell, I've known guard players to anchor chimera lines with hellhounds because of the AV12 side, so there is NO WAY to get a side armor shot on them.

Lets see how likely it is to kill a chimera with a land raider, shall we?

87% chance to hit the vehicle. 50% chance to penetrate. 33% chance to destroy. That totals out to be a 14% chance to destroy a chimera.

If we assume your goal is to immobilize the chimera, our odds go up to a 19% chance to cripple it. That means we need FIVE SHOTS to stop a chimera on average... if you smoke, we need TEN. We aren't stopping one chimera before it can fire, let alone 2.

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo can be abusive

Ok, I'm a noob, but I REALLY would like this explained. My buddy uses Marbo and he is ALWAYS useless. I've developed a couple of ideas as to how he might actually be useful, but I'm interested in an explanation here...

Tangent wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo can be abusive

Ok, I'm a noob, but I REALLY would like this explained. My buddy uses Marbo and he is ALWAYS useless. I've developed a couple of ideas as to how he might actually be useful, but I'm interested in an explanation here...

I've never seen him be OVERLY abusive... I mean granted he has a demo charge, but you can achieve the same effect more reliably from other options in your codex.

Joey wrote:Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

You're wilfully being stupid as gak, feth off.

Horst wrote:
Once again, I can only assume your being ignorant on purpose, because nobody is truly this in the dark when it comes to the game.

Chimeras have armor 12. Saying things like "They have armor 10 on the side!" means less than nothing to me, because if you take enough chimeras, you just make a wall of armor 12, and you have no shots to the sides available. If you are an extremely FAST vehicle, then yes, you can get side shots. Alas, land raiders are not. Hell, I've known guard players to anchor chimera lines with hellhounds because of the AV12 side, so there is NO WAY to get a side armor shot on them.

Lets see how likely it is to kill a chimera with a land raider, shall we?

87% chance to hit the vehicle. 50% chance to penetrate. 33% chance to destroy. That totals out to be a 14% chance to destroy a chimera.

If we assume your goal is to immobilize the chimera, our odds go up to a 19% chance to cripple it. That means we need FIVE SHOTS to stop a chimera on average... if you smoke, we need TEN. We aren't stopping one chimera before it can fire, let alone 2.

Surely you just want to stop it moving? so a 2, 4,5,6 would do. Or on glancing, 4 and 6. This gives us a 2/3 chance on a penetrate, 1/3 chance on glancing. Oh and your landraider has several of these. It can also move out of the way. I don't know what the rest of your army is doing while your land raider sits on its arse like an obese child surrounded by salivating wolves.
Maybe they're being crushed in close combat by those fearsome meltavets.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corrode wrote:
You're wilfully being stupid as gak, feth off.

What exactly has offended you? That I point out that specialised anti-tank units are good at taking out tanks? That's being "willfully stupid"?

OP isn't willing to listen to reasonable posts.
Thread is going downhill quick...

Time to leave...

Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss and ordnance blast is what's so powerful. An opponent can hide units from LoS or behind cover and whatnot, but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge, usually hits, and kills most/all of the target.

Tau in particular hate Marbo. Jet infantry? Well, good thing you used that assault move to get back behind cover, oh wait...

He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.


Yeah, he can whiff, but if an opponent has any unit that isn't physically in are terrain, Marbo can neutralize it with a high degree of success.

Of course, then your opponent also has to waste another units shooting to get rid of him instead of targeting something more valuable because he's good enough in CC to finish off most units survivors of his demo charge if needs be the next turn and packs melta-bombs for AT, so an opponent can't just ignore him.

Horst wrote:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Well maybe people shouldn't try and compare a LR (which is a dedicated Assault Transport with AV 14) with a chimera (cheap spammed wagons)

and 2 chimeras with melta vets is MORE expensive then a LR. Not to mention WHY would one LET a chimera w/ melta vets within 6" of them (after of course the chimera only moved 6" to get within firing range which means it was only 12" in the SM turn)

purplefood wrote:OP isn't willing to listen to reasonable posts.
Thread is going downhill quick...

Time to leave...

The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

never saw marbo as a powerhouse. More like a 65 point non scatter directional Demo charge.

plus he is a KP.

Oh god, the idiots are breeding.

Comrade wrote:
Well maybe people shouldn't try and compare a LR (which is a dedicated Assault Transport with AV 14) with a chimera (cheap spammed wagons)

and 2 chimeras with melta vets is MORE expensive then a LR. Not to mention WHY would one LET a chimera w/ melta vets within 6" of them (after of course the chimera only moved 6" to get within firing range which means it was only 12" in the SM turn)

The raider + whatever is inside it is way more expensive than 2 chimeras + melta vets.

And I don't know wtf your talking about, with your 12" range...

Chimera can move 12", disembark 2", and fire 6" melta range. Thats a 20" melta threat radius. Sure, the melta vets will die... but sacrificing 200 points of melta vets for a 250 point raider is good, not to mention the terminators will now be useless.

And this is all besides the point, because you CANT just move away from the guard army, you have to go TOWARDS it, as a marine player, because you will NEVER outshoot a good guard list.

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:OP isn't willing to listen to reasonable posts.
Thread is going downhill quick...

Time to leave...

The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

The argument is that the IG codex doesn't really have a sinlge OP unit but rather works together as a whole as an 'OP' army instead.
This was said on the 1st page.

I need more popcorn... this is way to good.

Also, I fething hate Manticores. I play orks :(

Joey must be trolling.

If someone who actually plays 40k genuinely thinks Imperial Guard are not one of the top codices currently, they clearly know nothing about how to actually play this game.

Seriously. Crawl out of your hole and play against some competitive IG builds. Manticores, Hydras, Melta and Plasma Vets, Vendettas and CCSs with a number of chimeras will eat through most armies.

Vaktathi has summed up quite nicely in a number of posts why IG is a top codex. Ignoring such reasons only shows ignorance and/or deliberate trolling.

*Edit* Forgot a word.

Blacksails wrote:Joey must be trolling.

If someone who actually plays 40k genuinely thinks Imperial Guard are not one of the top codices currently, they clearly know nothing about how to actually play this game.

Seriously. Crawl out of your hole and play against some competitive IG builds. Manticores, Hydras, Melta and Plasma Vets, Vendettas and CCSs with a number of chimeras will eat through most armies.

Vaktathi has summed up quite nicely in a number of posts why IG is a top codex. Ignoring such reasons only shows ignorance and/or deliberate trolling.

*Edit* Forgot a word.

You must have missed it dude, Joey and Comrade have come up with the way to beat meltavets - you just DON'T GET IN RANGE OF THEM! Nobody else has ever thought of that and of course there's nothing else in the Guard army that would require you to go towards it, and games don't have objectives ever nor does your own army have any short-ranged weapons. They've cracked it, just don't put your stuff near his stuff and you'll be dominating tournaments the world over.

Joey wrote:

Horst wrote:

Comrade wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
It's pretty clear that you've never had to deal with a real IG list. IG isn't the worst, but it's not far from the top. I think the issues really boil down to points costs. Why get 1 Land Raider when you can have almost 5 Chimaeras? Why buy a naked squad of 10 marines for 160 points when you can get a meltavet squad for 100? IG has some of the best bargains on models in the game, in addition to some very powerful counters to basically everything. That's what makes them heinous. I like my IG, but I'm not going to pretend the army isn't incredibly sick.

Huh?

10 Space marines split into 2 squads w/ a ML and a Flamer VS a 10 man Vet Squad with 3 melta guns and a chimera (160pts vs 155 pts) = SMs win. Really. A 'Naked" SM squad doesn't have to exist unless you WANT to NOT use you FREE weapon upgrades.

A LR VS 5 Chimeras. Not even able to do this one. LR wins. A Chimera has at most a S6 gun. While an AV14 tank is a beast. An AV12/10/10 tank can get fethed up by bolters into the side. Or frag grenades.

Please don't be purposefully stupid. Nobody is saying that 5 chimeras will beat a land raider.

However, 2 chimeras full of melta vets will ANNIHILATE a land raider, and do a darn good job of killing everything inside of it.

The fact is that guard lists can be among the most overpowered in the game, and unless your playing blood angels, space wolves, or grey knights, you really don't stand a chance against a well-built guard list.

Dedicated anti-tank units will destroy a tank? SURELY SHOME JOKE.
I hear tankbustas also wreck vehicles, point?
If you can't destroy two chimeras with your land raider, that's YOUR fault.

Can tankbustas wreck a Land Raider through shooting? No
Does a squad of 10 tankbustas cost more points than a 10 man Melta Vets squad? Yes
Do Tankbustas have the disadvantage of the Glory Hogs rule that Melta Vets do not suffer from? Yes
Do Tankbustas have a lower BS? Yes
Do Tankbustas have Melta Weapons? No
You understand my point? You yourself compared Melta Vets to Tankbustas, and yet Melta Vets are better in every possible way.

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it. And saying that it's someones fault that their Land Raider didn't manage to kill a Chimera is stupid, is it someone's fault that they rolled a 2 on the vehicle damage table? No, it's down to luck.

(I like answering my own questions today)

EDIT: This post has moved on far too much for my liking since I started typing my post

purplefood wrote:
The argument is that the IG codex doesn't really have a sinlge OP unit but rather works together as a whole as an 'OP' army instead.
This was said on the 1st page.

Yeah, and the evidence for this is that a specialised anti-tank unit with T3 Ld 8 and 12" range is capable of taking out a tank.
Sorry but I call bs.
Note that saying the IG codex is better than others is not the same as saying it is "OP". It may well be one of the best out there, doesn't mean it's overpowered by any stretch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rampage wrote:
Can tankbustas wreck a Land Raider through shooting? No
Does a squad of 10 tankbustas cost more points than a 10 man Melta Vets squad? Yes
Do Tankbustas have the disadvantage of the Glory Hogs rule that Melta Vets do not suffer from? Yes
Do Tankbustas have a lower BS? Yes
Do Tankbustas have Melta Weapons? No
You understand my point? You yourself compared Melta Vets to Tankbustas, and yet Melta Vets are better in every possible way.

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it. And saying that it's someones fault that their Land Raider didn't manage to kill a Chimera is stupid, is it someone's fault that they rolled a 2 on the vehicle damage table? No, it's down to luck.

(I like answering my own questions today)

I have no idea what stats tankbustas are, so i'll take your word for that.
And Land Raider CAN split fire, machine spirit.

Rampage wrote:

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it.

Actually, the Land Raider *can* split fire. PotMS and all that.

Joey wrote:

purplefood wrote:
The argument is that the IG codex doesn't really have a sinlge OP unit but rather works together as a whole as an 'OP' army instead.
This was said on the 1st page.

Yeah, and the evidence for this is that a specialised anti-tank unit with T3 Ld 8 and 12" range is capable of taking out a tank.
Sorry but I call bs.
Note that saying the IG codex is better than others is not the same as saying it is "OP". It may well be one of the best out there, doesn't mean it's overpowered by any stretch.

It isn't over powered but that's why people think it is.
If you faced a keyed up IG list you may well think they are OP.
Vets are very capable of taking out a tank which is why people keep using them... they are also cheap as hell.

Corrode wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Joey must be trolling.

If someone who actually plays 40k genuinely thinks Imperial Guard are not one of the top codices currently, they clearly know nothing about how to actually play this game.

Seriously. Crawl out of your hole and play against some competitive IG builds. Manticores, Hydras, Melta and Plasma Vets, Vendettas and CCSs with a number of chimeras will eat through most armies.

Vaktathi has summed up quite nicely in a number of posts why IG is a top codex. Ignoring such reasons only shows ignorance and/or deliberate trolling.

*Edit* Forgot a word.

You must have missed it dude, Joey and Comrade have come up with the way to beat meltavets - you just DON'T GET IN RANGE OF THEM! Nobody else has ever thought of that and of course there's nothing else in the Guard army that would require you to go towards it, and games don't have objectives ever nor does your own army have any short-ranged weapons. They've cracked it, just don't put your stuff near his stuff and you'll be dominating tournaments the world over.

Holy ! That's brilliant! We're all royally screwed with this new amazing idea! I guess its time to pack in my IG and pick up a new army. I hear Tau are a super OP codex because they have super awesome guns and a cool anime flair.

Horst wrote:

Comrade wrote:
Well maybe people shouldn't try and compare a LR (which is a dedicated Assault Transport with AV 14) with a chimera (cheap spammed wagons)

and 2 chimeras with melta vets is MORE expensive then a LR. Not to mention WHY would one LET a chimera w/ melta vets within 6" of them (after of course the chimera only moved 6" to get within firing range which means it was only 12" in the SM turn)

The raider + whatever is inside it is way more expensive than 2 chimeras + melta vets.

And I don't know wtf your talking about, with your 12" range...

Chimera can move 12", disembark 2", and fire 6" melta range. Thats a 20" melta threat radius. Sure, the melta vets will die... but sacrificing 200 points of melta vets for a 250 point raider is good, not to mention the terminators will now be useless.

And this is all besides the point, because you CANT just move away from the guard army, you have to go TOWARDS it, as a marine player, because you will NEVER outshoot a good guard list.

Hm. I concede the point about disembarking. The thought of disembarking a Scoring unit in an all vet army to die to destroy a transport never made sense to me.

And yes. you do have to move towards a guard army. Doesn't mean you can have thing that are Anti tank in your backfield. Whoop te doo. Look AV12. AC, MLs. Break e'm up. Ignore Hellhouds (Not AP3 definitely not to good at tank busting)

Eldar have AV12. No one is complaining about that. they also have funny shields and random flying gak.

Meltavets destroy vehicles. Yes. Everything else. Not so much. There we agree to that. At least I hope so, if you start saying they are the most broken thing in the codex and destroy termies I'm just going to give up talking to you. (plus the fact your ignoring the vendetta. Which is the brokenest thingy along with the manticore)

Anyways I'm not disagreeing that the IG codex is one of the best out there. It is. But as with everything else its beatable.

Eldar vehicles cost 120ish points with AV12, Chimeras cost 55, Hydras 75. There's a slight difference in how many are on the table.

Again, you're focusing on one unit (meltavets) and ignoring everything else in the army. Nobody thinks meltavets by themselves are overpowered, it's what they do in the context of the rest of the Guard army that makes them powerful.

Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

There are probably more, but these are just the ones off the top of my head without re-reading the codex.

Vaktathi wrote:

Rampage wrote:

Also, on the Land Raider thing, the Land Raider can't split fire, so yeah, it might be able to take out one Chimera, but the other one will probably have it.

Actually, the Land Raider *can* split fire. PotMS and all that.

Ah ok, thanks both of you for pointing this out, my bad, you can probably tell that I'm not an MEQ player .

@ Comrade -

Most people I know take the AP3 hellhound that wounds on a 2+..... its silly good against marines. Ignoring it is a surefire way to die.

Horst wrote:Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

There are probably more, but these are just the ones off the top of my head without re-reading the codex.

oh man. you guys get way to worked up over this gak.

yeah, its the banewolf (I think I still run a 3rd-4th ed Guard army with Platoons (Shock *AWE*) and regular old LRMBTs none of this stupid flying gak)

but its only a flame template (I think) I don't use em.

I'm just bitter that guard is almost unbeatable for a marine player (codex marines, as blood angels / space wolves / GK have plenty of fight in them).

Horst wrote:I'm just bitter that guard is almost unbeatable for a marine player (codex marines, as blood angels / space wolves / GK have plenty of fight in them).

Get better at playing.

Horst wrote:I'm just bitter that guard is almost unbeatable for a marine player (codex marines, as blood angels / space wolves / GK have plenty of fight in them).

I've been killing marines with IG since 1998. What do you mean fight?

Horst wrote:Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

True enough. I only play against marines though, where its effects are much, much less useful. But otherwise sure, 110 points (165 w/chimera) for a unit that can do that is OP.

Horst wrote:
2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

Meh, they're still pretty easy to kill, I disagree with you on this

Horst wrote:
3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

Okay that's probably true. Never used one in battle but from the rules, 3 twinlinked lascannon shots=dead vehicle.

Horst wrote:
4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

Again, probably true. It rips light armour to shreds but is useless against heavy vehicles. More importantly however, it competes with Leman Russes for heavy support, so is somewhat limitted in usefulness.
But I still wouldn't say they were over-powered as a whole. Especially with melta-bombs commonplace. IG become much easier to beat against a specialised anti-IG list.

IG are only overpowered if you have more money than God. Realistically, no-one who needs to pay the rent and eat will be able to field 9 Manticores or Leman Russes in a 2000pt game... maybe if you've been building your IG army up for over a decade, you'll have that many tanks around (but why would you have 9 Russes? You haven't been able to put more than 3 on the table until very recently). If money is no option, then you can field the 9D3 large blast template per-turn armies that end up being OP.

If you have other expenses apart from little toy soldiers, you might find your IG experience is significantly less than OP...

Comrade wrote:
I've been killing marines with IG since 1998. What do you mean fight?

He means vanilla marines struggle, but SW/BA et al find it easier to beat IG.

Joey wrote:

Comrade wrote:
I've been killing marines with IG since 1998. What do you mean fight?

He means vanilla marines struggle, but SW/BA et al find it easier to beat IG.

SW and BA are both top tier codeci...

Not to jump on the angry wagon here, but it seems like the OP has becomed stuck in his train of thougth. Yes IG CAN be built to wreak anything that the opponet fields, and yes some builds are rather nasty, but no singel unit in the codex is insanly OP.
So I suggest you make a army list that YOu consider competative and post it, and with some explenations of your tactics.

Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

Trondheim wrote:Not to jump on the angry wagon here, but it seems like the OP has becomed stuck in his train of thougth. Yes IG CAN be built to wreak anything that the opponet fields, and yes some builds are rather nasty, but no singel unit in the codex is insanly OP.
So I suggest you make a army list that YOu consider competative and post it, and with some explenations of your tactics.

I'm playing exclusively against Descent of Angels atm, which frankly makes a piss-take of warhammer itself, completely changing the dynamic of the game.
veterans with special weapons are out of the question entirely, as it's £7.50 for the two of them. That'd be an extra 40 quid for four veteran squads. I think I'll stick to blobs for the time being...

Holy ! That's brilliant! We're all royally screwed with this new amazing idea! I guess its time to pack in my IG and pick up a new army. I hear Tau are a super OP codex because they have super awesome guns and a cool anime flair.

As a current Tau player... You have wounded me sir with your sarcasm krak missile...

Strength 8...

My pride...

*Dies from Instant Death*



But as a Guard Player, yes, I agree with the majority. The Guard codex is undercosted in alot of places and can lead to some powerful lists (I'm going to omit 'unbeatable') because of it.

Though the squadron rules in the BRB provide some relief playing against them, its not enough. Chimeras, Vendettas, Hydras (to a point), Leman Russ Variants, Manticores (even though a loathe them), and maybe Psyker Battle Squads are undercosted for their potential strengths (especially those stupid planes).

I'd trade all that crap in for cheaper Rough Riders, Ogryns, Storm Troopers, and worthwhile artillery that can actually fire indirectly from a reasonably spot. (I mean 12" Blind Spot for the Death Strike Missile? Wth! Give the Colossus and Basilisk some love! 24" and 36" blindspots suck!)

I loved the old Codex alot more to be honest.

Corrode wrote:Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

hmm... I fail to see how Russes are bad. Russes are my armies bread and butter AV 14/13 with a Battle cannon and a LC for 165pts is beautiful glory combined with massed infantry and commissars.

I field 3 of them all the time, and they do well enough for me. Of course trying to combine them is just stupid.

Hydras are KPs waiting to happen.

Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

TrollPie wrote:Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

balanced to what?

Horst wrote:Melta vets in chimeras aren't the ONLY reason guard is OP... they are just one of the better examples.

Let me list all the broken abilities guard has -

1) Psyker squads. Instant leadership -9 is broken, don't even pretend it isn't.

Assuming they have some way to take advantage of that leadership modifier, it's requiring at least two units to cause it to break, and then that doesn't assure the units destruction either. Not much different than using two units to actually destroy said target instead.

2) vet squads w/ special weapons in chimeras WAY too cheap... deliver as much firepower as marine squads at close range for 100 points less in a more durable transport.

They don't deliver the same firepower. They might deliver the same special weapon firepower, but that's it. They don't have the same capability to engage non-vehicle units (lol lasguns vs Bolters), zero CC capability and no highly threatening hidden S8 powerfist, and have nowhere near the durability in any imaginable manner. The transport is also only more durable from the front, not from the sides (not as big an issue if it's sitting in the back, but if it's got to move up or drop off troops...), has no side hatches (very useful if you've ever used a Rhino) and the heavy weapons aren't providing long range highly accurate AT like they do on a Razorback.

3) Vendettas are CRAZY OP. For 35 points CHEAPER than a predator annihilator, you get 3 TL lascannons (compensating for lower BS), 12 armor all around, fast, outflanking, squadrons, and transport capabilities. WTF?

Yup, though that said, every codex has a unit like this. Vulkan and TH/SS termi's for C:SM, GH's/Rune Priests and Long Fangs for SW's, etc.

Again however, people keep listing squadrons as a plus. It's very apparent few people have read the squadron rules or tried to run squadroned vehicles, especially any that aren't cheap AV10 disposable units like speeders or war walkers.

4) Hydras are undercosted as all hell. For 50 points less than a rifleman dread, you get longer range and ignoring cover saves, at the cost of 11% accuracy. Sure, your side armor is lower... but again, it doesn't usually matter unless you get in close, and you can't do that because of the chimeras with vets screening them.

Lower side armor, less accurate, can't move and fire to full effect, no ability to engage or defend itself in CC, can't take a pod, has almost no other weapon options unlike the dread. The dread is a much more versatile platform and pays for it, it's not a mono-role skimmer hunter.

Corrode wrote:Eldar vehicles cost 120ish points with AV12, Chimeras cost 55, Hydras 75. There's a slight difference in how many are on the table.

Lets be fair here, Eldar vehicles were designed under the 4E rules. Do you remember Eldar under 4E rules? In the 20 or so months of 4E with the 2006 Eldar codex, playing 2-3 games a week many against a regular Eldar opponent, I can count the number of times I killed an Eldar tank on two hands, and the number of times I killed a Falcon/Fire Prism on one.

Tau suffer from much the same issue. They were definitely a power army under 4E, and were worth every point spent aside from Vespid and whatnot. The differnces in the armies must take this into account, as comparisons between these armies aren't entirely accurate.

TrollPie wrote:Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

The correct answer is that they are over priced.

Joey wrote:

TrollPie wrote:Joey, do you believe Fire Warriors to be OP, UP or balanced?

balanced to what?

Balanced compared with any useful (but not overly so) unit from a 5th Editiom, a.k.a. they're fairly costed for what they do, they aren't OP or UP.

Joey wrote:I'm playing exclusively against Descent of Angels atm, which frankly makes a piss-take of warhammer itself, completely changing the dynamic of the game.

So you're saying that against one of the worst match ups for IG (from what I've read) IG has a hard time... so they're not overpowered/extremely strong. How about some perspective?

veterans with special weapons are out of the question entirely, as it's £7.50 for the two of them. That'd be an extra 40 quid for four veteran squads. I think I'll stick to blobs for the time being...

Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

I don't see IG as overpowered, they are simply so good at forming gunlines, they can blow away a sizable chunk of you army, or concentrate their firepower to bring down whatever omgwtfbbq unit you thought was going to win you the game.

At 2000pts and IG get first turn. Say they blow away about 300 points worth of stuff. That means, that before you even get too move your men, your fighting with 1700 pts against 2000.

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

He was refering to veterans.
For Hydras, you can stick one of the Quad-Autocannon turrets from the Imperial Strongpoint kit on a Chimera, or strap a few autocannons to a Chimera turret.

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

First of all, that quote is in response to meltaguns, not Hydras. Secondly, search dakka. There's a bunch of people that have posted different ways to do it. And, given the Chimera hulls (i think?) Hydras aren't too hard to build.

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss an ordnance blast is what's so powerful.

Vaktathi wrote:but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge,

Vaktathi wrote:He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.

Vaktathi wrote: of his demo charge

Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Tangent wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss an ordnance blast is what's so powerful.

Vaktathi wrote:but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge,

Vaktathi wrote:He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.

Vaktathi wrote: of his demo charge

Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Really? Your friend forgot about his S8 AP2 pie plate?

Tangent wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Marbo's ability to basically just appear anywhere and toss an ordnance blast is what's so powerful.

Vaktathi wrote:but then Marbo comes on, tosses his demo charge,

Vaktathi wrote:He also makes a great punchline, tossing a demo charge at a bunched up disembarked unit and annihilating it.

Vaktathi wrote: of his demo charge

Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Marbo is equipped with a demo charge...
It's fairly powerful IIRC but one use...

Tangent wrote:
Wait, what? My friend has never even mentioned something called a "demo charge."

Yeah, he's got a Demo Charge, a one use, 6" range S8 AP2 Large (5") Blast Assault 1 weapon. That's his primary purpose is to deliver that. With BS5, he rarely misses.

Ninja'd, Purple

Edit: And Vak

Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Wow, this... changes everything. Nuts.

I'm a ninja-ry ninja... raised by peas though...

He just kept trying to shoot stuff with his ripper pistol.

There's your problem.

Never leave home without your demo charge.

marbo with no demo charge? Thats like a Space Marine with a lasgun and flak armour

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...

purplefood wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...

I must try this combination. Is the tequila mixed with the milk?

Corrode wrote:Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

You clearly have more disposable income than 80% of my friends. It takes me 5 years on average to get an army up and running. Typically a weekend before they release a new codex invalidating my old army list...

Blacksails wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...

I must try this combination. Is the tequila mixed with the milk?

Give me a second and we'll find out...

purplefood wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Soladrin wrote:Now you know why his marbo is useless, lol.

Triple ninja'd. What the hell you been eating Purple?

Tequila, milk and mars bars...

I must try this combination. Is the tequila mixed with the milk?

Give me a second and we'll find out...

Well I guess it will be soon.

Tequila mixed with milk.... egh.... that just makes my stomach churn.

can't be worse than lager.

Okay boys.
Just tried it.
I proclaim the White Mexican a complete success and a rather tasty one at that...
Though an important note: Do not add tobasco. #1 Experiment failed abysmally due to this.

pics or didn't happen.

Joey wrote:
The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

Smell that? That's irony.

squidhills wrote:

Corrode wrote:Competing with Russes would matter if Russes weren't pretty bad.

squidhills, it's really not hard or expensive to build solid mech Guard. Working out my current 1750 list in cash it's something like £500 all in at GW RRP; take discount out of that and you're looking at anywhere from £350-450. Single adults or DINKs can easily afford that if they want to with appropriate budgeting.

You clearly have more disposable income than 80% of my friends. It takes me 5 years on average to get an army up and running. Typically a weekend before they release a new codex invalidating my old army list...

A new army costs ~$500-$1000.

If it takes you 5 years to collect that much money, I suggest you get a new job :(

Joey wrote:pics or didn't happen.

Well that seems like a colossal waste of my time...
It looks like milk, smells like tequila and tastes like subdued tequila...
If you want pictures you can do it yourself and you'll have lots of pictures.

stompydakka wrote:

Joey wrote:
The "arguments" put forward here remind me of the "arguments" religionists put forward. i.e., there is one absolute truth that is, in some curious way, unquantifiable.
Or are people in the internet incapable of being rational.
Possibly both.

Smell that? That's irony.

Criticism of the self does not negate criticism of the other.

Horst wrote:
A new army costs ~$500-$1000.

If it takes you 5 years to collect that much money, I suggest you get a new job :(

Try living with a government thats idea of an economic stimulus is to raise taxes. Unemployment is a bitch.

I despise what the Imperial Guard have become. Cheap units and builds that supercedes everything else. If it doesn't have a melta gun, plasma gun, autocannon, or isn't in a Chimera or Valk, its considered sub-par and needs to have these things. Manticores are the same way--I hate those things so much.

Darn you Robbin Cruddace! I want my Sergeants to have lasguns not friggin power weapons! We're not imitation Orks with our crappy blobs of foot guard!

Yea that's right, sergeants in infantry squads can't have lasguns but you can give them a flippin power weapon. Why? Why would you give a nickle and dime sergeant something that's considered uncommon!?

Heresy!

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah, because there's no cheap way to convert them. At all.

Not everyone has been part of an online community for years. I'm a consumer, with feth all money. Please enlighten me as to how to convert hydras.

Maxmini do good turrets at 27EUR a go. Alternatively Puppet Wars do a turret which is pretty passable for something like £6 a go. Both good options and much cheaper than buying them at £43/tank from FW.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

if youre bringing all that youre gonna be playing apoc anyways

Billagio wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You can have 9 Av14 tanks in an army, along with 9 AV12 skimmers that have scout. And a transport capacity.

And 6 AV12 transports. 8 if you count the HQ.

Meaning that you could have a total of 26 vehicles in a perfectly legal army.

if youre bringing all that youre gonna be playing apoc anyways

Not necessarily...
Apocalypse is about points values...
You could have only infantry in an apocalypse macth but equally you could have too many tanks to carry.

So just real quick - 2 Chimeras in HQ, 3 in Elite, 36 in Troop, 9 Valks, 9 Hydras.

That's a lot of vehicles.

Guard can out shoot anything in the game. The problem is that while they can do that, they can place too many units on the table for you to actually destroy, and have orders to improve the effectiveness of units as needed.

Guard infantry are weak, but benefit from the ability to add power weapons/fists to actually kill off marines and termies before the squad dies. They can even make massive blob squads, add a priest, and assault better than anyone else in the game, points wise.

They have excellent transports, chimeras being cheap, have a decent gun and lots of infantry inside can shoot, not just 1. You can also hide your ever important order issuing units inside them. Their Valkyries are fast, which can basically make the guard the 3rd fastest army in the game for next to nothing. Nothing like playing against a guard army with 3 outflanking valkyries with melta guns inside.

Their tanks just kill stuff dead. Squadron rules for most of them allow you to field an absurd number of vehicles from just the heavy support slot. You know it's bad when there is no way to bring enough anti-tank to kill everything.

Effectively, the guard is the best shooting in the game, with decent or better than average everything else.

juraigamer wrote:
Effectively, the guard is the best shooting in the game, with decent or better than average everything else.

Until Tau get a facelift. But until that happens Guard definately have the best variety of shooting that I've seen in any other army.

I don't know why some people claim that Guard are OP/really good because they can take so many vehicles due to squadrons. Squadrons are actually quite debilitating for a Guard army. Being destroyed on an immobilized result while still only presenting one unit to shoot at and with means that any anti-tank weapon with mulitple shots will likely be able to damage multiple vehicles in a single turn.

The strength of the Guard lies in multiple chimeras and tanks in every FOC slot so we don't have to double or triple up vehicles. The exception to this is the common pair of Hydras due to their cheapness and increasing volume of fire.

Just be glad Chimeras can't take Autocannon turrets. THAT would be terrifying.

Blacksails wrote:I don't know why some people claim that Guard are OP/really good because they can take so many vehicles due to squadrons. Squadrons are actually quite debilitating for a Guard army. Being destroyed on an immobilized result while still only presenting one unit to shoot at and with means that any anti-tank weapon with mulitple shots will likely be able to damage multiple vehicles in a single turn.

The strength of the Guard lies in multiple chimeras and tanks in every FOC slot so we don't have to double or triple up vehicles. The exception to this is the common pair of Hydras due to their cheapness and increasing volume of fire.

Just be glad Chimeras can't take Autocannon turrets. THAT would be terrifying.

IIRC death korps chimeras CAN take autocannons, I read that in a ForgeWorld thread though so could be BS.
Squadrans are just a way of pissing away points. In reality IG can only have 3 Leman Russes, or 2 Leman Russes and a couple of hyrdas.
And you can spam chimeras if you want, but it's all or nothing. A couple of chimeras, other than keeping command squad/pyskers safe, won't do much other than waste points. The only way that chimeras are "overpowered" is if you take them at every possibly opportunity, which virtually no one has the money or willpower to do.

I'm curious. Do you know what a competitive Guard list looks like? Please post one. Say for...1500-2000pts range.

What's true in "competitive" circles is of no interest to me.
I play for fun, and friendly competition with friends.

Then why are you arguing about IG being OP? If you don't care about what competitive is, then why discuss the OP nature of Guard with little to no knowledge of what the IG are known for in competitive games?

If you're more concerned about fun...why would you worry about whether one army is OP or not? As soon as you start talking about what is, and is not, OP then immediately people are going to assume you're discussing how competitive the army is, as that is where it matters how powerful, or not, the army is.

Blacksails wrote:I don't know why some people claim that Guard are OP/really good because they can take so many vehicles due to squadrons. Squadrons are actually quite debilitating for a Guard army. Being destroyed on an immobilized result while still only presenting one unit to shoot at and with means that any anti-tank weapon with mulitple shots will likely be able to damage multiple vehicles in a single turn.

The strength of the Guard lies in multiple chimeras and tanks in every FOC slot so we don't have to double or triple up vehicles. The exception to this is the common pair of Hydras due to their cheapness and increasing volume of fire.

Thisthisthisthis

Just be glad Chimeras can't take Autocannon turrets. THAT would be terrifying.

They can with IA rules, and it's not really that terrifying having played both with and against them. The cost premium over the already fairly effective multi-laser really isn't worth it.

Joey wrote:
IIRC death korps chimeras CAN take autocannons, I read that in a ForgeWorld thread though so could be BS.

IA:1 rules allow chimeras to take autocannons, the Death Korps don't have chimeras at all.

The only way that chimeras are "overpowered" is if you take them at every possibly opportunity, which virtually no one has the money or willpower to do.

>_>
<_<

(don't look at my sig)

juraigamer wrote:

Guard infantry are weak, but benefit from the ability to add power weapons/fists to actually kill off marines and termies before the squad dies.

They've always had that ability, in fact, in the last book, they were all 5pts cheaper. Doesn't mean they're a good investment most of the time and you rarely see them outside of blob squads.

They can even make massive blob squads, add a priest, and assault better than anyone else in the game, points wise.

Erm, were talking about a 300-400pt unit here at that point, whose primary strength is being able to eat more casualties than an enemy can inflict before they're ground down, not an epic tier assault unit. There's a reason you don't see tons of CC guard armies.

They have excellent transports, chimeras being cheap, have a decent gun and lots of infantry inside can shoot, not just 1. You can also hide your ever important order issuing units inside them.

And if the infantry are all or mostly in the transports, the orders can't be issued to anything.

Their Valkyries are fast, which can basically make the guard the 3rd fastest army in the game for next to nothing. Nothing like playing against a guard army with 3 outflanking valkyries with melta guns inside.

As opposed to 1st turn DS drop pods, outflanking genestealers, CSM chosen outflanking with 5 meltaguns in a rhino, etc?

Their tanks just kill stuff dead.

Um, in what way and whose don't?

Squadron rules for most of them allow you to field an absurd number of vehicles from just the heavy support slot.

Again, it seems nobody reads the squadron rules....

You know it's bad when there is no way to bring enough anti-tank to kill everything.

There usually is a way, it just means that against many other armies you're hosed Any type of IG army is beatable, just not in a very "all comers" way.

Effectively, the guard is the best shooting in the game, with decent or better than average everything else.

That's kinda the point. They're supposed to be, along with maybe Tau (who have never had as much raw firepower but rather more manueverability and ability to place it where it counts, they've got an outdated book for now but that'll change soon enough apparently).

Blacksails wrote:Then why are you arguing about IG being OP? If you don't care about what competitive is, then why discuss the OP nature of Guard with little to no knowledge of what the IG are known for in competitive games?

Because I'm not a "competitive" player. Seriously, how is this difficult?

Joey wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Then why are you arguing about IG being OP? If you don't care about what competitive is, then why discuss the OP nature of Guard with little to no knowledge of what the IG are known for in competitive games?

Because I'm not a "competitive" player. Seriously, how is this difficult?

I'm still at a loss for you starting this thread if you have no clue what is OP and what is not. I'm not a competitive player either by nature, but I know what a good list and codex is and what is not. You claim IG are not OP and back this up by plugging your ears and screaming "LALALALALA", then back it up further by stating you aren't a competitive player. It really makes no sense.

If you were a competitive player, and played against competitive IG lists, you'd understand why they are a top tier army.

Vaktathi wrote:

The only way that chimeras are "overpowered" is if you take them at every possibly opportunity, which virtually no one has the money or willpower to do.

>_>
<_<

(don't look at my sig)

Dude those tanks/APCs are awesome! Lovely colour scheme too, you don't see enough relaxed colour schemes around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blacksails wrote:
I'm still at a loss for you starting this thread if you have no clue what is OP and what is not. I'm not a competitive player either by nature, but I know what a good list and codex is and what is not. You claim IG are not OP and back this up by plugging your ears and screaming "LALALALALA", then back it up further by stating you aren't a competitive player. It really makes no sense.

If you were a competitive player, and played against competitive IG lists, you'd understand why they are a top tier army.

Because there's a spectrum between a 7 year old dribbling on a space marine, and someone who's entered thousands of tournaments. I play seriously, and I play to win, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in some objective notion of a single "competative army list".

Joey wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blacksails wrote:
I'm still at a loss for you starting this thread if you have no clue what is OP and what is not. I'm not a competitive player either by nature, but I know what a good list and codex is and what is not. You claim IG are not OP and back this up by plugging your ears and screaming "LALALALALA", then back it up further by stating you aren't a competitive player. It really makes no sense.

If you were a competitive player, and played against competitive IG lists, you'd understand why they are a top tier army.

Because there's a spectrum between a 7 year old dribbling on a space marine, and someone who's entered thousands of tournaments. I play seriously, and I play to win, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in some objective notion of a single "competative army list".

I appreciate your good will.

Joey wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

The only way that chimeras are "overpowered" is if you take them at every possibly opportunity, which virtually no one has the money or willpower to do.

>_>
<_<

(don't look at my sig)

Dude those tanks/APCs are awesome! Lovely colour scheme too, you don't see enough relaxed colour schemes around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blacksails wrote:
I'm still at a loss for you starting this thread if you have no clue what is OP and what is not. I'm not a competitive player either by nature, but I know what a good list and codex is and what is not. You claim IG are not OP and back this up by plugging your ears and screaming "LALALALALA", then back it up further by stating you aren't a competitive player. It really makes no sense.

If you were a competitive player, and played against competitive IG lists, you'd understand why they are a top tier army.

Because there's a spectrum between a 7 year old dribbling on a space marine, and someone who's entered thousands of tournaments. I play seriously, and I play to win, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in some objective notion of a single "competative army list".

But where are you on the spectrum? Are you even on the spectrum?!

Dude...I AM the spectrum.

Joey wrote:Dude...I AM the spectrum.

Quick! Someone give me an internet meme while I run away from this confusion!

Vaktathi wrote:

Joey wrote:
IIRC death korps chimeras CAN take autocannons, I read that in a ForgeWorld thread though so could be BS.

IA:1 rules allow chimeras to take autocannons, the Death Korps don't have chimeras at all.

Centaurs! I absolutely love them... just had to say.

Or you could say something spontanious and witty?
Not everything has to be post-modern, yaknow.

I thought that was spontaneous, although asking me to be witty is pushing it a bit far and as for 'post-modern'...erh, where did that come from old chap?

many of these "memes" are random interjections of human expression, the rancid ejaculate of the lowest of the "internet classes", with no refence to culture or history or anything other than the meme itself. IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
well I have a meeting at the jobcentre early tomorrow so looks like i'm off. nighty night

The Guard is not OP, reason because they have so many troops and vehicles are because they have no super powers, no magic of any kind and no mystical technology - they are ordinary men and woman defending Mankind from certain doom.
So what if they can bring 26 vehicles into the list? My friend who play Orks said that vehicles are not problem at all. But then again it's al up to the individual. In my opinion Creed is OP because of his tactical genius rule ( being able to infiltrate SQUADRONS of vehicles or even Titan is just to much OP to me ).

Brother Coa wrote:The Guard is not OP, reason because they have so many troops and vehicles are because they have no super powers, no magic of any kind and no mystical technology - they are ordinary men and woman defending Mankind from certain doom.
So what if they can bring 26 vehicles into the list? My friend who play Orks said that vehicles are not problem at all. But then again it's al up to the individual. In my opinion Creed is OP because of his tactical genius rule ( being able to infiltrate SQUADRONS of vehicles or even Titan is just to much OP to me ).

So they can't have access to squads of psykers that can drop S10 pieplates and reduce any squads ld ship to Ld1?

Horst wrote:For the love of god, don't even get me started on psyker battle squads.

Boom, leadership 1.

Do 1 wound from a barrage weapon.

HAVE FUN PASSING THAT LEADERSHIP TEST LOLOLOLOL

That's what they're there for...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they can't have access to squads of psykers that can drop S10 pieplates and reduce any squads ld ship to Ld1?

The Imperial Guard has no unit with capabilities matching that description.


They can however throw S9 pieplates, and min Ld is 2

Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they can't have access to squads of psykers that can drop S10 pieplates and reduce any squads ld ship to Ld1?

The Imperial Guard has no unit with capabilities matching that description.


They can however throw S9 pieplates, and min Ld is 2

Really? Isn't a +1S for every psyker in the squad, with the max squad size being 10?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they can't have access to squads of psykers that can drop S10 pieplates and reduce any squads ld ship to Ld1?

The Imperial Guard has no unit with capabilities matching that description.


They can however throw S9 pieplates, and min Ld is 2

Really? Isn't a +1S for every psyker in the squad, with the max squad size being 10?

You are thinking of GK's.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they can't have access to squads of psykers that can drop S10 pieplates and reduce any squads ld ship to Ld1?

The Imperial Guard has no unit with capabilities matching that description.


They can however throw S9 pieplates, and min Ld is 2

Really? Isn't a +1S for every psyker in the squad, with the max squad size being 10?

there is always 1 non-psyker Overseer.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So they can't have access to squads of psykers that can drop S10 pieplates and reduce any squads ld ship to Ld1?

The Imperial Guard has no unit with capabilities matching that description.


They can however throw S9 pieplates, and min Ld is 2

Really? Isn't a +1S for every psyker in the squad, with the max squad size being 10?

Your mixing 2 codex here.

All I know is, when that codex landed in my sweaty hands, I did a jig of delight.

I'm thinking that I'm about to do another one Saturday when Necrons lands there

I have I think, at last count - 9/10 Leman Russ chassis, 6/7 Chimera's and 3 Basilisks.

Need to work on my converting skills to get some Manticores and AA fire hehehe

Soulstorms strength is equal to the number of psykers in the Battle Squad (up to 9 + 1 non-psyker Overseer). Weaken Resolve reduces a units leadership by the number of psykers in the Battle Squad to a minimum, as said in the IG Codex, of 2 for the remainder of that turn.

So, I just informed my friend about Marbo's demolition charge. Did someone mention that it has no chance to scatter? If so, why is this? I thought all blast weapons could scatter, or something.

Tangent wrote:So, I just informed my friend about Marbo's demolition charge. Did someone mention that it has no chance to scatter? If so, why is this? I thought all blast weapons could scatter, or something.

It can scatter.

Tangent wrote:So, I just informed my friend about Marbo's demolition charge. Did someone mention that it has no chance to scatter? If so, why is this? I thought all blast weapons could scatter, or something.

It can scatter, just between a >50% chance to land directly on target and an ~88% chance to still hit the original model with scatter, he doesn't scatter much.

Can Marbo hit himself with it?

Tangent wrote:Can Marbo hit himself with it?

Yes. Yes he can.

In fact I once played against an IG army where that happened. He survived though :(

Excellent. I hope I see this happen a lot! My friend's Marbo is about to get much more efficient, I think...

From Personal experience Manticores are overrated. THey just do not hit what they are aiming for all that often....

Vendettas are great except they are bullet magnets and do not stand up to concentrated fire. If you do not get the first turn your options have been narrowed dramatically.....no scout move vendetta Mechvet spam rush for you....now you keep them in back looking for a tank to bust....

Hydras.....dont own any so i wouldnt know how they are OP.....St7 weapons are not OP in any sense....

Dogface 76 wrote:Hydras.....dont own any so i wouldnt know how they are OP.....St7 weapons are not OP in any sense....

when you get 4 twin linked shots at 72" range, which ignore flat out and turbo boosting cover saves for skimmers/bikes, for only 75 points... Those S7 weapons become a wee bit too powerful. The points cost is just too low for something that good.

Having used Marbo in a game for the first time to wipe out an entire unit of Death Company...for a 65 point model. Lol. I'd like to thank this thread for enlightening me.