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Post by: Joey
quick question, since the Blood Lance is a shooting power, does it still have to roll to hit?
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Post by: Horst
kinda, because you gotta roll 4d6 to see if the lance reaches your target.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
I thought you had to roll to hit with all psychic shooting powers (excepting the template powers of course)? I don't have a rule book with me... but that was my impression.
But... come to think of it, this is more of a template isn't it?? Just a long, thin, template... ?
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Post by: Grakmar
BGB FAQ:
Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.
Blood Lance:
This power is a psychic shooting attack.
So, yes, you have to roll:
1) Psychic test (if fail, power isn't cast)
2) To hit using the psyker's BS (if miss, power does nothing)
3) The distance the line extends
4) To wound/armor penetration
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Post by: Joey
So you'd need to roll to hit each unit in the line?
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Post by: jbunny
But Blood Lance tells you how to determine if a unit is hit. Rolling a to Hit roll is not one of them.
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Post by: odorofdeath
Step 1: Psychic test
Step 2: Roll to Hit
Step 3: Roll 4D6 for distance
Step 4: Roll to Wound, Armor Pen., as usual.
And you're done!
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Post by: Tri
You could roll to hit but that would do nothing as every thing the 4D6 line touched is hit.
1) psychic test
2) roll 4d6 and measure line
3) anything touched by line is hit
4) roll to would/pen
5) roll saves
and done
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
IIRC Blood Lance does not need to roll to hit ... need to check the wording. Anyone with a Codex handy feel free to help out.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.
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Post by: Joey
nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.
That seems like the most rational thing to do, rolling for each unit would be silly.
Thanks guys!
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.
Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line 
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Post by: Happyjew
It's the same with the Eldar Vibro cannons. You roll to hit (and you don't need to declare a target). If you hit, then you draw the line and the weapon hits every unit the line passes through.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line
Not really. It requires a roll to hit, per the rules. How difficult it actually it is to hit things depends on the BS of the psyker.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
DarknessEternal wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line
Not really. It requires a roll to hit, per the rules. How difficult it actually it is to hit things depends on the BS of the psyker.
Hmm you'll miss 1/3 of the time? I feel wronged by sheer definition, if you pass a psy test the power is going off, yet now with a power that causes hits mind you. You need to roll to hit, so I hit per the rules cuz that's what it does yet I have to roll to hit to see if those hits are actually caused ...
Maybe it's just my interp of the rules but I don't feel you need to roll to hit with a PSA that doesn't shoot like a gun. While we're at it roll to hit with Avenger...
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Post by: nosferatu1001
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.
Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line
But yo uonly get to place that line after you've rolled to hit. Kinda hard to hit if you dont place the line in the first place
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
nosferatu1001 wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.
Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line
But yo uonly get to place that line after you've rolled to hit. Kinda hard to hit if you dont place the line in the first place
I'm missing the text for blood lance, bare with me whilst I track one down.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Placing the line is resolving the PSA, which you only do after rolling to hit.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: I feel wronged by sheer definition, if you pass a psy test the power is going off, yet now with a power that causes hits mind you. You need to roll to hit, so I hit per the rules cuz that's what it does yet I have to roll to hit to see if those hits are actually caused ...
Many other psychic shooting attacks have never been questioned about their rolling to hit. Everyone just assumed, incorrectly, that the line ones didn't have to roll. They've never had an exception to rolling to hit. If a power doesn't require a roll to hit, it specifically says so.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
I guess the fundamental question is... is Blood Lance just another psychic shooting attack with variable range, or a (linear) template attack with no need to roll to hit?
I would err on the side of treating like a normal psychic shooting attack... unless convincing evidence can be presented to the contrary.
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Post by: Sir Blayse
This come up all the time and the word says you extend the line and units are "hit". The other factor here is the unit is hit and not the models due to the wording. So if you only hit one unit (squad), it is one hit and not for each model under the template. Blood lance is really to kill vehicles, not troops. But, if the enemy has several squads that line up you can rack up a hit on each of those should you have the range.
Also for everyone referring to roll to hit, where doe it show that the blood lance must if it does as written in it's rules. The roll for distance projects the line as a template, much like using a flamer template. The power itself define how it hits the target. Having to roll the 4d6 already makes this power limited, having to roll to hit each unit is hardly needed.
For an example compare this power to Machine Curse. Machine curse references that "if the power hits, then" , Blood specifically states the units touched by/under the line are hit.
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Post by: kirsanth
There is nothing to indicate it is a template or should use any rules relating to them.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
I guess the question becomes do I roll to hit before or after I draw my line. Truth is I don't care beings If I hit or miss I am told the unit suffers a hit.
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Post by: kirsanth
Generally, psychic powers list what occurs when they are used successfully.
Like bolters, for example.
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Post by: Happyjew
You roll to hit. If successful, you roll 4d6 to determine the length of the line. As was pointed out, if it "hits" automatically, it would say something like "This is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits any unit in a straight line with a range of 4d6 ""
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Post by: Sir Blayse
To go further on this subject, check the rules for shooting in general on pg. 17. Before you roll to hit, you must measure your range to make sure you can even attempt to hit. So you would have to roll the 4d6 to meet this criteria and not roll to hit before you measure it out.
Second, shooting rules show "To determine if the firing models have hit their target, roll a d6 for each shot that is in range." The Blood lance power states that "any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single str 8, ap 1 hit with the 'lance' type." Due to Blood lance's wording you have already determined the units "being hit status" and would not have to roll to determine it as such. So far I have not found any reference in either BRB, Blood Angels codex, or either FAQ that point to any other answer. If there is a clearly written example please provide a page number to I can note it. I don't use that power in my list, I run Shield and Unleash Rage, but a lot of our BA players use it. Before I began using BA I had an opponent wipe out an entire squad of my marines, by wrongly stating that the power hit every model under the line... I thought that was a bit crazy, with it being s 8 and ap 1, but didn't find out until later that it only hits the unit, not the models themselves.
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Post by: kirsanth
Sir Blayse wrote: Due to Blood lance's wording you have already determined the units "being hit status"
It doesn't mention needing to take a psychic test either. Do you skip that step too?
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Post by: Sir Blayse
You roll to hit. If successful, you roll 4d6 to determine the length of the line. As was pointed out, if it "hits" automatically, it would say something like "This is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits any unit in a straight line with a range of 4d6 "
why would it work backwards from a regular shooting attack?
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Post by: Brother Ramses
No/Yes.
Been hashed out a thousand times in a thousand threads. Search and choose the opinion that you agree with and play it that way or discuss with your opponent.
With the above being the disclaimer,
Exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are in the codexes per page 50 of the BRB. So therefore if the codex tells you how to employ the psychic power that is different then the general rules, you follow the codex. Follow the rules for Blood Lance in the BA codex which tells you how the power is employed and consequently, how it hits. No roll to hit is needed.
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Post by: Sir Blayse
It doesn't mention needing to take a psychic test either. Do you skip that step too?
Jump to the strawman arguement, so you have something to knockdown. All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.
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Post by: Happyjew
If it does not say it automatically hits (i.e Leech Essence or Psychic Scream) and it is a PSA then it requires you to roll to hit. I would play it just like an Eldar Vibro Cannon.
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Post by: kirsanth
Sir Blayse wrote:It doesn't mention needing to take a psychic test either. Do you skip that step too?
Jump to the strawman arguement, so you have something to knockdown. All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.
It is an issue. 1) Blood lance is a psychic power. 1a)You have to roll a psychic test (and succeed) to use a psychic power. 2) Blood lance is a psychic shooting attack. 2a)You have to roll to hit with a psychic shooting attack. 3 Blood lance mentions neither of these prerequisites. 3a) Blood lance ignores neither of these prerequisites. I can find you entire lists of psychic powers that STATE exceptions to 3a. Blood lance is not one of them. Editing to add: Feth, check Shackle Soul, Blood Boil, and Fear the Darkness on the same. . .bloody page!
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
You don't need to roll to hit with Avenger, why? The models under the template are auto hit.
Units under the line suffer a HIT...
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Post by: nosferatu1001
"Instead of rolling to hit" - rules for blast weapons.
So, INSTEAD of rolling to hit...still means a to hit roll was required, you just do something instead.
This is different to blood lance. It has no such exception from rolling to hit.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
The unit suffers a hit, Even if I miss it does. As its been stated you need to measure your line to check range ...
I miss (unit suffered a hit)
I hit (unit suffered a hit)
Imaginary lines are just that potent I guess.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
No it doesnt, as you dont place the line until after you've rolled to hit.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
nosferatu1001 wrote:No it doesnt, as you dont place the line until after you've rolled to hit.
Wrong. Again you attempt to create a rule where one does not exist. You tried this before and were debunked before. There is no such thing as a rolling to place a line. The power tells you how to employ said power that is an exception to the general rules. The power explicitly tells you how to resolve hits, which is again an exception to the general rules for resolving hits.
Rolling to place a line? That is the best you can come up with this time?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
What, in the threads where you kept parroting page 50 and were roundly debunked at every turn?
Those threads? the best you can come up with is to yet again point out p50, despite being unable to show the line "instead of rolling to hit", as an example?
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Post by: Tri
Ok its a psychic shooting attack so ...
1) pass the psychic test
2) check LOS to the target unit
3) check range
4) roll to hit
5) roll to wound (pen and damage table for vehicles)
6) roll saves and remove any that fail
Now lets do that for the blood lance
1) Roll ... 4,5 cool thats under 10 he passes
2) yep he can see the target
3) ... ok check range .... Oh S!I'm going to have to draw the line and that means every thing under it is hit ...
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Post by: Brother Ramses
nosferatu1001 wrote:What, in the threads where you kept parroting page 50 and were roundly debunked at every turn?
Those threads? the best you can come up with is to yet again point out p50, despite being unable to show the line "instead of rolling to hit", as an example?
Nowhere in the BRB is the requirement of, "instead rolling to hit" the standard. You keep championing that as the imaginary rule to back up your argument. The truth is that the book tells you that exception to the general rules on how psychic powers will be employed will be in the codex. There is the standard by which you rate the exception. If the codex tells you to do something different then then BRB, then you follow the codex.
I put to you again, what you have failed to answer countless times,
Blood Lance does not contain the line,
"Instead of measuring range..."
Do you still measure range? Measuring range is part of the general rules as is rolling to hit. Yet Blood Lance does not contain,
"Instead of measuring range..."
How about checking LoS? Blood Lance does not contain the line,
"Instead of checking LoS..."
Do you check LoS? Checking LoS is a general rule just like rolling to hit. Yet Blood Lance does not contain the above line.
See, your line of reasoning does not work. If you follow the standard set by the BRB, that exceptions to employ psychic powers are in the codexes, then you don't fall into your logical fallacy. The codex tells you to do something different then the BRB, you follow the codex.
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Post by: don_mondo
Sure, roll to hit. And then, hit or miss based on BS, follow the rules in the power to determine what it does.
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Post by: Bookwrack
Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.
It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.
All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
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Post by: jbunny
Bookwrack wrote:Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.
It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.
All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
So do powers that use the Template require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
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Post by: Saiisil
jbunny wrote:Bookwrack wrote:Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.
It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.
All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
So do powers that use the Template require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
And to further the point I am getting from jbunny here.
So do powers that say they automatically hit require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
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Post by: kirsanth
Wow. . .and I got called on for bringing up irrelevance?
/boggle
Keep up the good work!
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Post by: Bookwrack
Saiisil wrote:jbunny wrote:Bookwrack wrote:Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.
It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.
All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
So do powers that use the Template require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
And to further the point I am getting from jbunny here.
So do powers that say they automatically hit require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
I didn't realize that I actually need to repeat, 'the specific overrules the general,' but I thought I was dealing with people with a working grasp of English... My mistake for overestimating your and jbunny's reading comprehension.
*edit*
Or do you really need it laid out for that the general rule is 'all PSAs need to roll to hit' which would be over ruled by the more specific instance of, 'template weapons auto hit,' or PSAs that specifically say they auto-hit.
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Post by: Saiisil
The problem is the way you worded it. "Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do" would happen to make what you are saying seem to be along the lines of "No matter what the Psychic Power says if it is a Psychic Shooting Attack you roll to hit." Nothing wrong with our reading comprehension just your choice of wording.
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Post by: rigeld2
Saiisil wrote:The problem is the way you worded it. "Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do" would happen to make what you are saying seem to be along the lines of "No matter what the Psychic Power says if it is a Psychic Shooting Attack you roll to hit." Nothing wrong with our reading comprehension just your choice of wording.
No, his wording was right. According to the BRB, no matter what the power does it rolls to hit. Powers can override that - but knowing that takes a grasp of the english language and rules.
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Post by: Saiisil
Here is the problem with that wording, if you are saying that no matter what the power does you roll to hit and the power says it auto hits, that is what the power does it auto hits, your saying you still need to roll to hit. It becomes a contradiction. Now saying something to the point of unless specified otherwise by the power you roll to hit and the power says it auto hits, there no longer is a position of contradiction in the wording used. That is the issue I had with his post, can't speak for jbunny but I can speak for myself. Also the BGB and the FAQ don't say no matter what the power does, it says that it is treated like firing a ranged weapon meaning that you follow the steps for firing say a Bolter for example, 1) pick target, 2) check LoS, 3) check range, 4) roll to hit. As for Blood Lance I am still on the fence because I see validity on both sides, on one side the power doesn't specifically say auto hit while the other you break the order of operations.
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Post by: Joey
If it was intended to hit automatically, it would have explicitly said so in the codex or the FAQ.
Really though either way it's a badly written rule.
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Post by: Pumpkin
My take on it would be that, RAI, its template-like firing method sounds like it's supposed to be treated as an auto-hit weapon.
However, RAW, it's such a mess that I'd have to discuss it pre-game with my opponent, and I'd be happy to concede if they were uncomfortable with my interpretation of it. ...Unless they were an opportunistic WAAC type who was just looking to pounce on any sort of weakness to tip the balance in their favour, of course. Thankfully, I tend to avoid those types (competitive is great, but true WAAC tends to entail bad sportsmanship).
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Post by: Joey
Pumpkin wrote:My take on it would be that, RAI, its template-like firing method sounds like it's supposed to be treated as an auto-hit weapon.
However, RAW, it's such a mess that I'd have to discuss it pre-game with my opponent, and I'd be happy to concede if they were uncomfortable with my interpretation of it. ...Unless they were an opportunistic WAAC type who was just looking to pounce on any sort of weakness to tip the balance in their favour, of course. Thankfully, I tend to avoid those types (competitive is great, but true WAAC tends to entail bad sportsmanship).
This thread wouldn't have started if my opponant wasn't like that  there's too much hate on the battlefield.
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Post by: Happyjew
1. PSA require a 'To Hit' roll. (FAQ) - general rule.
2. Template and Blast weapons do not require a 'To Hit' roll. (BGB) - specific rule.
3. Attacks that state they AUTOMATICALLY HIT do not require a 'To Hit' roll (common sense?)- specific rule.
Does Blood Lance state it automatically hit? No.
Does Blood Lance use a Template or Blast Marker? No.
Does Blood Lance need a 'To Hit' Roll? Yes.
BTW, does JOTWW need a 'To Hit' roll? I know it also uses a line drawn on the board, but I don't own the SW codex.
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Post by: don_mondo
You left out
4. Some attacks may have alternative methods of determining a hit in their rules, these do not need to roll to hit (specific rule).
Does the Bloodlance have an alternative method listed in it's rules? Yes. No roll to hit needed. Same with JotWW and other similar powers.
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Post by: Happyjew
You're right I did leave out number 4.
4. Some attacks instruct you to do something "instead of rolling to hit, do X" (specific).
Does Blood Lance tell you to"do X instead of rolling to hit"? No.
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Post by: Joey
don_mondo wrote:You left out
4. Some attacks may have alternative methods of determining a hit in their rules, these do not need to roll to hit (specific rule).
Does the Bloodlance have an alternative method listed in it's rules? Yes. No roll to hit needed. Same with JotWW and other similar powers.
Where does it state that it automatically hits? Everything that automatically hits is [b]explicitly stated in the rules[b]. Blood Lance rules do not state that it automatically hits.
QED.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Joey wrote:don_mondo wrote:You left out
4. Some attacks may have alternative methods of determining a hit in their rules, these do not need to roll to hit (specific rule).
Does the Bloodlance have an alternative method listed in it's rules? Yes. No roll to hit needed. Same with JotWW and other similar powers.
Where does it state that it automatically hits? Everything that automatically hits is [b]explicitly stated in the rules[b]. Blood Lance rules do not state that it automatically hits.
QED.
It does states units under the line not locked in CC or Friendly suffer a Hit.
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Post by: Sir Blayse
All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.
First off, your trying to misquote this. I'm showing what is a clear ruling from the BRB. It is a clear rule that all psyker powers require you to make a psychic test before you use them. This is not the point of the issue.
Blood lance clearly states that units under the line are "hit". Going by the same method being used to come up with some alternate order for handling shooting, as in rolling to hit before even choosing range... you then add in your own wording that a power saying "hit" now refers to you now needing to attempt to hit the target already declared a hit by the power.
Has anyone on this site ever asked for a ruling on this power by a judge at an official event? I only ever even seen this problem come up on this site and it would seem that it has come up before with all of the BA armies that topped the tournies for quite a while.
Just going by how the rules are written in the BRB, FAQ, and the Codex it would still seem that Lance hits the models it says it "hits." The powers quoted for using "automatic hit" have a reason for them being written that way. The first is that they only hit one target and not multiple targets. Also they don't use a clearly marked location, they only go off of range. None of this helps say that a power that says it "hits" does not in fact hit without rolling to hit. If Blood Lance only said that it is a psychic shooting attack, with 4d6 range, and is str 8 ap 1 'lance' type... then, I would say that you would have to roll to hit as normal. of course you would also have to roll to hit said target and only be able to hit one target.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
BR - yawn, that again.
Did you notice the words "as an example" at the end? I guess you didnt. Try again with your fallacy ridden argument.
There is no exception given for rolling to hit, as you are assuming the line replaces the to-hit, without a rule saying that.
Roll ot hit. If you pass, place the line. Very simple. Kinda like a blast, but along a line.
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Post by: Tri
nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - yawn, that again.
Did you notice the words "as an example" at the end? I guess you didnt. Try again with your fallacy ridden argument.
There is no exception given for rolling to hit, as you are assuming the line replaces the to-hit, without a rule saying that.
Roll ot hit. If you pass, place the line. Very simple. Kinda like a blast, but along a line.
Nos how do you check range with the blood lance? It is required for all shooting weapons but the only way i can see to do it is to roll 4D6 and measure it with a tape-measure ... which oddly draws a sort of line ... 
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Or it has no range, and therefore you dont need to check range.
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Post by: Happyjew
Not all weapons require checking range. Look at the Eldar Vibro Cannon for a regular weapon that seems to be very, very similar in function to Blood Lance. Also since, their seems to be a minimalization(?) on posting rules, I would appreciate it if someone could PM me the full text for both Blood Lance and JOTWW. I don't own the codexes (codicies?) and am curious as to what the powers actually state.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - yawn, that again.
Did you notice the words "as an example" at the end? I guess you didnt. Try again with your fallacy ridden argument.
There is no exception given for rolling to hit, as you are assuming the line replaces the to-hit, without a rule saying that.
Roll ot hit. If you pass, place the line. Very simple. Kinda like a blast, but along a line.
So you still won't answer the question. Dodging what destroys your argument, CHECK. Conversation is over with you yet again.
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Post by: Happyjew
As far as I know the only PSA that does not require a 'to hit' roll and fits in with my previous points is Mind War (though I might be wrong), which works as follows:
Take Psychic Test.
Choose an unengaged model within X" and in LOS
Both roll Ld +D6
Target takes 1 wound (no armor save) per point lost by.
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Post by: Grakmar
Happyjew wrote:As far as I know the only PSA that does not require a 'to hit' roll and fits in with my previous points is Mind War (though I might be wrong), which works as follows:
Take Psychic Test.
Choose an unengaged model within X" and in LOS
Both roll Ld +D6
Target takes 1 wound (no armor save) per point lost by.
Sadly, Mind War requires a 'to hit' roll as well, now.
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Post by: Happyjew
Like I said, I could be wrong. Therefore all PSA fall in 1 of 4 categories:
1. Automatically Hits (No 'To Hit' roll)
2. Uses Templates or Blast Markers (No 'To Hit' roll)
3. Specifically state that 'Instead of rolling to hit...' (No 'To Hit' roll)
4. Everything else. ('To Hit' roll required)
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Post by: Brother Ramses
Happyjew wrote:Like I said, I could be wrong. Therefore all PSA fall in 1 of 4 categories:
1. Automatically Hits (No 'To Hit' roll)
2. Uses Templates or Blast Markers (No 'To Hit' roll)
3. Specifically state that 'Instead of rolling to hit...' (No 'To Hit' roll)
4. Everything else. ('To Hit' roll required)
You have created standards that are not called for by the BRB.
"Automatically hits" is not the standard.
"Blast templates" is not the standard.
"Instead of rolling to hit.." is not the standard.
The standard set by the BRB is that the exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. That is it. If the codex tells you to do something different then the the BRB, you follow the codex. Nothing more, nothing less.
All the new FAQ has done is clarify that psychic shooting attacks follow the general rules for shooting attacks. That would be perfectly fine for your argument if not for the specific wording in the BRB that exceptions to the general will be in the codexes.
So while people like Nos continue to Robbie the Repeating Robot,
"Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt...."
They continue to ignore that what they are repeating over and over is a general rule which is overridden when the codex tells you to do something different.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Why not say it should not roll to-hit because you do not even have a target until it affects a unit?
That would make some sense, at least.
Editing to add:
Saying "people like Nos" does not make it any less personal (especially since the first new thing I have read from "people like you" in this whole thread was posted by me), but if you want to talk of standards, look at the page the power is on.
In the codex.
There are 5 shooting attacks.
3 of them actually state they do not roll to-hit.
The standard then--in that codex--is to state exceptions to shooting.
Apparently.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:They continue to ignore that what they are repeating over and over is a general rule which is overridden when the codex tells you to do something different.
What part of the Blood Lance power gives you permission to skip the to-hit roll?
Drawing the line?
6769
Post by: Tri
Blood Lance second paragraph wrote:This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarians base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffer a single Strength 8 AP1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in closes combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Right, so... Nothing. Awesome. Glad we cleared that up.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:They continue to ignore that what they are repeating over and over is a general rule which is overridden when the codex tells you to do something different.
What part of the Blood Lance power gives you permission to skip the to-hit roll?
Drawing the line?
Read page 50. There is no standard for giving permission or announcing exception. The codex exceptions on how to EMPLOY the psychic power will be in the codex. That does not require a specific permission that does not require an announcement. That tells you that if there is an exception to the employing the psychic power, it will be in the codex. If the codex tells you to hop around 6 times while screaming,
"B-A-N-A-N-A-S!"
And everything on the table is hit by a str 10 ap9 blast, then that is what you do because that is the exception on employing the psychic power that overrides the general rules for employing the psychic power. By your standard Rig, where does Blood Lance give you permission to skip checking LoS or checking range? What about declaring a target? The reason why it doesn't give you explicit permission to skip those general rules is because the codex is giving you an alternate method of employing the psychic power. The codex is giving you an an exception to the general rules for employing the psychic power.
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Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:By your standard Rig, where does Blood Lance give you permission to skip checking LoS or checking range? What about declaring a target?
It doesn't. And?
The reason why it doesn't give you explicit permission to skip those general rules is because the codex is giving you an alternate method of employing the psychic power. The codex is giving you an an exception to the general rules for employing the psychic power.
So the fact that it's a psychic shooting attack is irrelevant, save that it must happen in the shooting phase and you cannot fire another weapon?
I'm... not sure I buy that.
edit: It's a permissive rules set, which means you must have permission to do things. The BRB explains the requirements of a PSA, and I don't see anything in Blood Lance that gives you permission to ignore those things.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
BR - so, inability for you to avoid personal attacks, yet again. Check. "Argument" with you over, again.
Sigh.
It still rolls to hit, because it does not list an exception AS REQUIRED BY PAGE 50 to the requirement to roll to hit. That's it.
24207
Post by: jbunny
The rules for Blood Lance tell you how to determine which units are hit. Rolling to hit is not one of them.
Not sure why people have a hard time with this one.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
...which means you roll to hit, as they have not provided an exception to the rule "you must roll to hit"
46128
Post by: Happyjew
And yet all other PSA that do not require a 'To Hit' roll will state "Instead of rolling to hit..." (or they auto-hit/use template/marker)
47462
Post by: rigeld2
jbunny wrote:The rules for Blood Lance tell you how to determine which units are hit. Rolling to hit is not one of them.
False. The PSA rules (which Blood Lance has to follow) require a roll to hit. Blood Lance doesn't say, "Instead of rolling to hit, place a line..." or anything similar to that.
Nothing overrides the BRB, therefore you must follow the base PSA rules.
Not sure why people have a hard time with this one.
Me either. OHWAIT it's because some people read rules incorrectly.
50135
Post by: Saiisil
I just thought of something. nos, your saying roll to hit then place line, but there are some saying that you need to check range before rolling. How about this as a compensation to the two sides of that argument?
1) Pass Psychic Test
2) Roll 4d6 and place line check for hits
3) Roll to hit each unit the line passes over
4) Resolve hits.
24207
Post by: jbunny
But the rule says all units are HIT. Not that they have the potential to be hit. All units take a hit. I don't need to rol to see if the unit is hit, as the rules tell me the unit is hit.
28090
Post by: liam0404
I really don;t see why there is a debate here. The BRB FAQ explicitly states that anything that is called a "Psychic Shooting Attack" in its description, MUST roll to hit. Therefore powers such as:
Blood Lance
Mind War
JOTWW
All must roll to hit.
Things like the avenger don't roll to hit because of the weapon type that power is - its a template, which means you NEVER roll to hit. You are NEVER given permission to ignore this step with Blood Lance.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:By your standard Rig, where does Blood Lance give you permission to skip checking LoS or checking range? What about declaring a target?
It doesn't. And?
The reason why it doesn't give you explicit permission to skip those general rules is because the codex is giving you an alternate method of employing the psychic power. The codex is giving you an an exception to the general rules for employing the psychic power.
So the fact that it's a psychic shooting attack is irrelevant, save that it must happen in the shooting phase and you cannot fire another weapon?
I'm... not sure I buy that.
edit: It's a permissive rules set, which means you must have permission to do things. The BRB explains the requirements of a PSA, and I don't see anything in Blood Lance that gives you permission to ignore those things.
You do have explicit permission. The BRB tells you that exceptions to the general rules for employing a psychic power will be in the codexes. The Blood Lance rules entry specifically provides an exception to the general rules with the very wording of the rule.
You don't check LoS.
You don't check range.
You don't roll to hit.
You follow the method for employing Blood Lance per the rules entry which is per the BRB for exceptions to the general rules.
How is it being defined as a psychic shooting attack have any bearing on why it should have an exception to the general rules? Thunderclap is a psychic shooting attack that does not roll to hit either. And before you jump in saying because it is a template, that is wrong. Thunderclap only uses the small blast marker for purposes of defining the area of the shooting attack. It is not a blast weapon. The reason why the models under the template are hit is because the rule entry for Thunderclap tell you they are hit.
28090
Post by: liam0404
BR, explain where you are given permission to ignore the "All Psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit" ruling from the BRB FAQ?
50135
Post by: Saiisil
I decided on my compromise post because I see merit on both sides of the argument here. On one side the FAQ says that all PSAs need to roll to hit (Exceptions will apply as liam just pointed out) and the other side says that because the power says all units with a model under the line take 1 hit as jbunny pointed out. Then we have those saying you roll to hit first and there are those that are arguing that, that is breaking the order of operations for shooting which PSAs are suppose to follow. So I decided to represent what seemed the most logical middle ground until this is FAQed
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
liam0404 wrote:I really don;t see why there is a debate here. The BRB FAQ explicitly states that anything that is called a "Psychic Shooting Attack" in its description, MUST roll to hit. Therefore powers such as:
Blood Lance
Mind War
JOTWW
All must roll to hit.
Things like the avenger don't roll to hit because of the weapon type that power is - its a template, which means you NEVER roll to hit. You are NEVER given permission to ignore this step with Blood Lance.
Actually it doesn't say "MUST" in big scary letters like you propose. In fact it doesn't say "must" in any type of letters. If it did you actually have a basis to your argument. The very fact that the BRB tells you that the exceptions to the general rules on employing psychic powers will be found in the codexes shuts your argument down from the beginning. Would a flow chart help?
BRB General Rules>>>>>>>BRB FAQ to General Rules>>>>>>Codex Exception to General Rules. Automatically Appended Next Post: liam0404 wrote:BR, explain where you are given permission to ignore the "All Psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit" ruling from the BRB FAQ?
The BRB FAQ of;
Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes
Is a FAQ to the GENERAL RULES for psychic shooting attacks/powers.
BRB, page 50;
The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes
.
Now, read the rule for Blood Lance;
It doesn't check LoS, pick a target, or check for range. All of which are GENERAL RULES. The rule itself tells you that any units the line pass through are hit. Again, the Blood Lance rule....in the codex....tells you that any units the line passes through are HIT. The rule is giving you specific instruction on how to employ it. It is giving you specific instruction on when and how units are HIT. How you employ Blood Lance, AS WRITTEN IN THE CODEX, is the exception to the general rules for employing a psychic power.
Now the question to you would be, why are you insisting on including a general rule to employ a psychic shooting attack when the BRB clearly tells me to follow the codex exception?
28090
Post by: liam0404
Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.
From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
liam0404 wrote:Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.
From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.
BRB, page 50;
"The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes."
Oh look, I can include your rule and my rule in the same post and not ignore any rules while your insistence on only putting up the BRB FAQ ignores mine.
28090
Post by: liam0404
Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.
You're really clutching at straws here.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
liam0404 wrote:Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.
You're really clutching at straws here.
That is golden. Do you have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale too?
Please tell me how a unit that is specifically said to suffer a hit when a line passes through it has not been hit. By all means I will be waiting for that semantical hoop jump.
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Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:liam0404 wrote:Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.
From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.
BRB, page 50;
"The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes."
Oh look, I can include your rule and my rule in the same post and not ignore any rules while your insistence on only putting up the BRB FAQ ignores mine.
Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?
Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.
28090
Post by: liam0404
Brother Ramses wrote:liam0404 wrote:Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.
You're really clutching at straws here.
That is golden. Do you have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale too?
Please tell me how a unit that is specifically said to suffer a hit when a line passes through it has not been hit. By all means I will be waiting for that semantical hoop jump.
Every model under the line suffers a hit - if the power has been successfully used.
This means that you need to take a psychic test.
As its a PSA, this also means you roll to hit.
If you pass both the above steps, everything under the line is hit.
Oh, and less of the personal insults please - otherwise ill start insulting you for using an autopilot army like space wolves - and while we're at it, JOTWW also needs to roll to hit too.
50135
Post by: Saiisil
rigeld2 wrote:Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?
Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.
You know I can show something that might be construed as an exception to 1) Pick a Target and 2) Check LoS
Under normal shooting rule you first pick a target then check LoS to that target, I am sure we can all agree to this.
Blood Lance: Blood Angels Codex page 63
"Extend a straight line 4d6" long from the Librarian's Base in any direction"
This sentence here tells us that we are not picking a target we are picking a direction, and without a target there is no LoS to check.
I however can't provide where it says it has an exception to rolling to hit, I can however provide wording that people will interpret to be an exception while others wont. As for checking range that is done when you extend the line.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:liam0404 wrote:Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.
From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.
BRB, page 50;
"The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes."
Oh look, I can include your rule and my rule in the same post and not ignore any rules while your insistence on only putting up the BRB FAQ ignores mine.
Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?
Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.
Rig, please read page 50, first paragraph after the bolded intro text and follow along;
BRB, Page 50, complete entry:
"These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from one individual to another. The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the Codexes, where you will find the complete rules for individual powers. The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the codex."
There is your permission, per the RAW. If the codex tells you to employ a psychic shooting attack different then the general rules, you follow the codex. Blood Lance tells you how to measure it out and how units are hit. That in itself is different then the general rules. That in itself is the exception. The codex is telling you how to employ Blood Lance that is different then the general rules, hence you follow the codex. Automatically Appended Next Post: liam0404 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:liam0404 wrote:Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.
You're really clutching at straws here.
That is golden. Do you have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale too?
Please tell me how a unit that is specifically said to suffer a hit when a line passes through it has not been hit. By all means I will be waiting for that semantical hoop jump.
Every model under the line suffers a hit - if the power has been successfully used.
This means that you need to take a psychic test.
As its a PSA, this also means you roll to hit, UNLESS A CODEX EXCEPTION TO EMPLOY THE PSYCHIC POWER EXISTS.
If you pass both the above steps, everything under the line is hit.
Oh, and less of the personal insults please - otherwise ill start insulting you for using an autopilot army like space wolves - and while we're at it, JOTWW also needs to roll to hit too.
I emboldened the text you keep missing. If you want to have a rules debate, you need to include all of the rules, not just the ones convenient to your argument.
And JotWW never hits a target. Your failure to read the rules shows that you probably should not be in this forum. Read the rule for JotWW and post it up here and maybe you will see where JotWW never hits a target.
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Post by: liam0404
Is JOTWW a PSA? It is?
Wow! Silly me for thinking GW's FAQ was incorrect.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and while ive just checked the codes:
Paragraph 2 of JOTWW starts with:
"As a Psychic Shooting attack".
Well gosh darnit. I dunno man, I think that GW's FAQ about GW's own game might not be correct here. I feel really bad for you, that your grasp of the rules isnt as good as the rest of us.
I'll stick to playing Warhammer 40k, while you can continue playing Rameses 40k. Then everyone is happy.
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Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:Rig, please read page 50, first paragraph after the bolded intro text and follow along;
Please don't shorten my name. No offense taken, I'd just appreciate you not shortening it.
BRB, Page 50, complete entry:
"These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from one individual to another. The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the Codexes, where you will find the complete rules for individual powers. The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the codex."
There is your permission, per the RAW. If the codex tells you to employ a psychic shooting attack different then the general rules, you follow the codex. Blood Lance tells you how to measure it out and how units are hit. That in itself is different then the general rules. That in itself is the exception. The codex is telling you how to employ Blood Lance that is different then the general rules, hence you follow the codex.
The general rules describe a PSA requiring a to-hit roll. The general rules say that exceptions will be covered in the codex. There is no exception to requiring a to-hit roll in the codex. There's nothing that says "instead of rolling to hit" or "this power automatically hits" or anything like that. The closest to it is the description of laying the line down - but you're not permitted to place that line until you roll to hit.
I don't have my rule book - when shooting, when do you roll for night fighting distance?
And JotWW never hits a target. Your failure to read the rules shows that you probably should not be in this forum. Read the rule for JotWW and post it up here and maybe you will see where JotWW never hits a target.
... but it's a PSA. It still needs to roll to hit. In the case of JotWW it's irrelevant because the line is still placed if you miss. I'd have to reread Blood Lance but it might be the same way. And yes, I will admit I may be arguing a technicality. That's what YMDC is for, however.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Brother Ramses wrote:And JotWW never hits a target.
Neither does Blood lance.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Having read the text on Blood Lance as sent to me by Saiisil, it still seems to me to work EXACTLY like the Eldar Vibro Cannon. Both are shooting attacks, both place a line of a certain distance, and both hit all units under the line. Does anyone disagree with this?
50135
Post by: Saiisil
Happyjew wrote:Having read the text on Blood Lance as sent to me by Saiisil, it still seems to me to work EXACTLY like the Eldar Vibro Cannon. Both are shooting attacks, both place a line of a certain distance, and both hit all units under the line. Does anyone disagree with this?
No I don't disagree, though I haven't read the rules on the Vibro Cannon yet but if it's wording is similar then can't argue using it as an existing example of use.
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Post by: Happyjew
When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw single X" straight line in any direction. Any unit the line passes through suffers Y hits (some information removed as Dakka is not a replacement for a codex.). Except for saying you roll to hit, it sounds very similar to Blood Lance (also it can hit your own units and units locked in CC).
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Post by: Sir Blayse
Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?
Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.
Because you are extending a 4d6 inch long straight line from the model outward. It jumps over friendly models and models locked in combat. It does not give a set range to measure for you to attempt to shoot. Not sure about not having LOS, I'd say you at least have to have LOS to the closest target.
The main reason for them saying that psychic powers require a roll to hit would be for powers like Machine Spirit and Smite. If either of these automatically then you have some serious trouble. A lot of players would say I made my psychic check and now I hit you with this power. But, they still have to roll to hit. The key point in Blood Lance is the fact that the power itself says the units under the line are "hit". Saying something is hit, seems to me that it means they are in fact hit. Rolling to hit something, when your not even sure what your hitting doesn't make any sense to me.
Still waiting for anyone that has had this come up in a tournament respond. The same back and forth is getting us no where.
As for a permissive rule set, that is fine. If your playing against me, then I'm fine with it being used how it is written. I don't use the power myself, in most cases it did not do as much as you would think. This is not JOTWW in any way, unless your trying to insta-gib someone's IC- then, I can see how they would want you to roll to hit. The power already limits itself in requiring a psychic test, then a uncertain range. Often I would roll for distance and get something like 8 to 10 inches annd not hit anything. It still counts as firing and I don't kill anything with it. That variable range gives you a similiar effect to rolling to hit.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Sir Blayse wrote:It does not give a set range to measure for you to attempt to shoot. Not sure about not having LOS, I'd say you at least have to have LOS to the closest target.
It has no target, so no range is needed nor is LOS.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
kirsanth wrote:Sir Blayse wrote:It does not give a set range to measure for you to attempt to shoot. Not sure about not having LOS, I'd say you at least have to have LOS to the closest target.
It has no target, so no range is needed nor is LOS.
It has no target, so there is no need to roll to hit, as it deals hits to units it crosses
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Funny, the Vibro Cannon has no target, and deals hits to units it crosses, and guess what, you still have to roll 'To Hit'
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Nevermind. I'm done. This argument is going like the JotWW one - it'll never be resolved without an FAQ. Have fun never rolling to hit because you disagree with the rules.
41894
Post by: mk2
"Any unit in lance's path suffers a hit" it can not be written clearer , you do not roll to hit since any unit in lance's path suffers a hit.( exactly what it says)
The only rolling is the 4D6 roll for distance .
50852
Post by: FatalGlitch21
I guess the roll to hit could be explained by the Librarian needing to accurately aim the power as he intends to... and if he passes then anything under the line (after rolling 4D6 range), gets hit regardless. I wouldn't think you need to roll to hit each unit/vehicle under the line, once the initial roll has been successfullly made (per the rule entry for Blood Lance)?
That being said, reading the entry in the codex makes me wonder if it was intended as an automatic hit without a roll needed. I think the rule is poorly written which leads to this kind of debate. I've been using the power without rolling to hit, but I can see now how a roll to hit could be justified by the rules. If my opponent decided to make an issue of it, I can't say I would blame them or really fight them on it.
The entry states "everything under the line is hit", which seems pretty clear, but it really isn't. It can (obviously) be taken in different ways.
You can look at it and say no roll to hit is needed because the Librarian's will determines the path of the lance. He can place it wherever he wants to without fail, and if you're in the way, you're taking a hit.
Or, you can say once the Librarian properly aims the power (determined via a roll to hit), everything under the line suffers a hit without needing to re-roll each time. The power itself, if aimed properly, hits you.
Clear as mud, right? Well... as most psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, I would say the precedent is that just because a Psyker wills something to go somewhere, it doesn't mean it always does. That would suggest a Blood Angel Librarian could intend to aim his power 4D6 inches in one direction, but be slightly off the mark (as determined by a roll to hit).
I really don't know for sure how this rule was intended. I do know it's giving me a headache. And I know that I wll be rolling to hit from now on. Sigh. 
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
Happyjew wrote:Having read the text on Blood Lance as sent to me by Saiisil, it still seems to me to work EXACTLY like the Eldar Vibro Cannon. Both are shooting attacks, both place a line of a certain distance, and both hit all units under the line. Does anyone disagree with this?
Except vibro-cannons are not psychic shooting attacks which have the rule on page 50 of the BRB that states exceptions to the general rules will be in the codex. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, there goes the attempted vibro-cannon argument down the drain again.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
....and there still isnt an exception listed in the codex.
There goes your argument again. Painful this, isnt it.
50135
Post by: Saiisil
As a Blood Angel player I should be inclined to argue against nos and happyjew but I am more inclined to agree with them especially after reading the wording of the Vibro Cannon.
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
nosferatu1001 wrote:....and there still isnt an exception listed in the codex.
There goes your argument again. Painful this, isnt it.
Well except that it already causes hits ...
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Exactly the same as the vibrocannon you mean? It doesnt have an exemption OR exception to "rolling to hit", so it does.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
nosferatu1001 wrote:....and there still isnt an exception listed in the codex.
There goes your argument again. Painful this, isnt it.
Which is your laughable response yet again? Models in the path of the line suffer a hit is a pretty huge hurdle for you to keep jumping over each time you want to say that the codex does not have an exception to employ the psychic power. Of course you are going to keep insisting that,
"Instead of rolling to hit...."
"Automatically hit..."
Are the absolute only exceptions that can be listed despite not only the Blood Lance showing you an exception that does not follow that wording as well as wording for several other codex exceptions for other general rules for psychic shooting attacks that are exceptions. Automatically Appended Next Post: nosferatu1001 wrote:Exactly the same as the vibrocannon you mean? It doesnt have an exemption OR exception to "rolling to hit", so it does.
Just stop Nos.
You keep comparing vibro-cannons to psychic shooting attacks when the only similarity is that you are told to roll to hit. EXCEPT, the vibro-cannon has absolutely no rules telling you not to follow the general rules whereas psychic shooting attacks have specific rules detailing to do just that.
Vibro-cannons tell you to roll to hit. They have no rules support to not roll to hit in any circumstance.
Psychic shooting attacks tell you to roll to hit. They DO have rules support that tell you to employ the power differently then the general rules if the codex tells you to.
It is not a valid comparison.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Here are all the differences between Blood Lance (BL) and Vibro Cannon (VC):
Type of attack, one is a psychic atack (BL) the other uses a gun (VC).
Length of the line: one is a set distance (VC), the other is variable (BL)
Strength and AP of the shot
Number of hits on the units the shot passes through: BL is a set number of hits, VC is variable.
Affects on CC: VC hits units locked in combat, BL bounces over them.
Do you see why we compare BL and VC?
It's worked out EXACTLY like the Vibro Cannon.
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Happyjew wrote:Here are all the differences between Blood Lance (BL) and Vibro Cannon (VC):
Type of attack, one is a psychic atack (BL) the other uses a gun (VC).
Length of the line: one is a set distance (VC), the other is variable (BL)
Strength and AP of the shot
Number of hits on the units the shot passes through: BL is a set number of hits, VC is variable.
Affects on CC: VC hits units locked in combat, BL bounces over them.
Do you see why we compare BL and VC?
It's worked out EXACTLY like the Vibro Cannon.
Well they're two entirely different weapons as the Vibro Cannon hits units multiple times, opposed to just 1. That's all the difference I need, they're not the same even if they are a bit similar.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
Happyjew wrote:Here are all the differences between Blood Lance (BL) and Vibro Cannon (VC):
Type of attack, one is a psychic atack (BL) the other uses a gun (VC).
Length of the line: one is a set distance (VC), the other is variable (BL)
Strength and AP of the shot
Number of hits on the units the shot passes through: BL is a set number of hits, VC is variable.
Affects on CC: VC hits units locked in combat, BL bounces over them.
Do you see why we compare BL and VC?
It's worked out EXACTLY like the Vibro Cannon.
HJ, read the rules for psychic attacks. You are missing a key difference in that psychic shooting attacks are given permission to exceptions that the vibro-cannon is not. At no time are you told that the vibro-cannon can not follow the general rules for shooting. You are told that psychic shooting attacks can ignore the general rules for shooting if the codex tells you to do something different.
That is why the comparison is flawed.
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Post by: Happyjew
So where does it say for Blood Lance you don't roll To'Hit'? It says all the units under the line are hit (as opposed to just the first unit) but it does not say you DON'T roll 'To Hit'
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Post by: reds8n
We can do without the digs at each other and the hyperbole please.
Take a breath, count to 10.. whatever.
Ta.
14701
Post by: Brother Ramses
Happyjew wrote:So where does it say for Blood Lance you don't roll To'Hit'? It says all the units under the line are hit (as opposed to just the first unit) but it does not say you DON'T roll 'To Hit'
Again READ the rule. The requirement set by the BRB is not, "do not roll to hit" or "instead of rolling to hit". The BRB tells you that exceptions to the general rules on how to EMPLOY the psychic shooting attack will be in the codexes. That means that the codex only has to give you a different method of EMPLOYING the psychic shooting attack for it to take precedence over the general rules for EMPLOYING a psychic shooting attack. To bring up my example again,
If the codex tells you to jump around in a circle yelling bananas and all enemy units on the table are hit by a str 10 ap1 "lance", then you do exactly that. It is a different method of employing that psychic shooting attack from the general rules.
Look to other examples of psychic shooting attacks that do not follow the general rules. The standard is not,
"Do not check range..."
"Instead of checking range..."
"Do not check LoS...."
"Instead of checking LoS..."
"Do not roll to wound...."
"Instead of rolling to wound..."
The standard is not specifically EXCLUDING general rules but instead giving alternate methods of employing the psychic shooting attack. Look at Thunderclap for an example. You are told to place the small blast marker so it is touching the base of the rune priest and everything under the marker is hit. You are not specifically excluded from checking range, LoS, declaring a target, or rolling to hit. Instead you are given an alternate to employing the psychic shooting attack that you follow instead of following the general rules.
That is the standard for exceptions to the general rules on employing psychic shooting attacks.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Happyjew wrote:So where does it say for Blood Lance you don't roll To'Hit'? It says all the units under the line are hit (as opposed to just the first unit) but it does not say you DON'T roll 'To Hit'
Strength D wounds everything it hits right? Do you think you roll to wound?
If it hits, you don't roll to hit. There is no need as it has already done so.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
BR - stop making up what my argument is. I used the word "example" a number of times in my argument, you just apparently enjoy ignoring the inconvenient parts.
There is zero point arguing with you on this, as you dont listen.
jd - Strength D "automatically wounds". Its not exactly an argument FOR your side at all, so i'd suggest ignoring it.
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Post by: Happyjew
And I quote: "If a destroyer weapon hits a vehicle, there is no need to roll for armor penetration - it automatically scores a penetrating hit.
If a destroyer weapon hits a non-vehicle model, there is no need to roll to wound - it automatically scores a wound."
It specifically says that armor pen and wounding is AUTOMATIC. I agree you don't need to roll to hit every unit the line passes through, however as it is a PSA you still have to roll to hit before placing the line.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
reds8n wrote:We can do without the digs at each other and the hyperbole please.
Take a breath, count to 10.. whatever.
Ta.
Per the above, I am going to actually try and break down some points to try and understand the "other" side of the coin on this issue.
To Nos, HJ, Rigeld, and others;
Where have you come up with the standard that for a psychic shooting attack to have an exception to the general rules, it must specifically state it? The focus with this topic has been rolling to hit and therefore the constant argument I have seen has been,
"Blood Lance/ JotWW does not contain the wording, "Instead of rolling to hit.." or "Automatically hits..." or "Do not roll to hit..."
Where did you come up with that specific set of wording as the standard for a codex exception?
I bring this up because psychic shooting attacks are employed quite differently across the spectrum. Many psychic shooting attacks do not check range, LoS, declare a target, roll for wounds, or do not follow other general rules. Yet, the specific wording that you claim is required for rolling to hit is not present to ignore those general rules for employing those psychic shooting attacks.
So as I previously asked, where have you come up with the specific wording that you say is required to be considered an exception to the general rule for rolling to hit when it is not present for any of the other general rules ( LoS/range/wounding) on several other psychic shooting attacks?
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Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:To Nos, HJ, Rigeld, and others;
Where have you come up with the standard that for a psychic shooting attack to have an exception to the general rules, it must specifically state it? The focus with this topic has been rolling to hit and therefore the constant argument I have seen has been,
"Blood Lance/JotWW does not contain the wording, "Instead of rolling to hit.." or "Automatically hits..." or "Do not roll to hit..."
Where did you come up with that specific set of wording as the standard for a codex exception?
I bring this up because psychic shooting attacks are employed quite differently across the spectrum. Many psychic shooting attacks do not check range, LoS, declare a target, roll for wounds, or do not follow other general rules. Yet, the specific wording that you claim is required for rolling to hit is not present to ignore those general rules for employing those psychic shooting attacks.
So as I previously asked, where have you come up with the specific wording that you say is required to be considered an exception to the general rule for rolling to hit when it is not present for any of the other general rules (LoS/range/wounding) on several other psychic shooting attacks?
There's no set wording, but there needs to be something similar to what you've stated - otherwise it's not an exception. Blood lance is telling you how to apply hits once you hit.
Can you cite what "many psychic shooting attacks do not check range, LoS," etc. that are missing something similar to "instead of"? Just a few is fine - I want to understand your point.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
Thunderclap;
Does not check range, you do not declare a target, you do not check LoS, you do not roll to hit; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
JotWW;
Does not check range, you do not declare a target, you do not roll to wound, you do not roll to hit; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Blood Lance;
Does not check range, does not declare a target, does not check LoS, you do not roll to hit; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Now an exception to employing a psychic power does not need to have a "instead of" or similiar to be an exception. As the rule is written, the codex only has to give a different method of employment of the psychic power to be an exception. Nos actually said it best when he was trying to correct me by saying,
I used the word "example" a number of times in my argument, you just apparently enjoy ignoring the inconvenient parts.
Because in reality, those are exactly that, examples. That does not limit them to just those examples because we have proof in other psychic shooting attacks on how codex exceptions to employing psychic shooting attacks are used for other general rules. Again with my Thunderclap example,
Thunderclap does not have you check LoS and it does not contain, "instead of or similar" to exclude it from the general rule for checking LoS. Yet, you employ the psychic shooting attack per the codex exception to the general rule of checking LoS.
JotWW does not roll for wounds and it does not contain, "instead of or similar" to exclude it from the general rule for rolling to wound. Yet you employ the psychic shooting attack per the codex exception to the general rule of rolling to wound.
I think that is probably my main contention with the rolling to hit crowd. You are arbitrarily applying a standard to the rolling to hit exception that you are not applying to the other psychic shooting attacks that also do not contain the "instead of or similar" wording for codex exceptions to the general rules in their entries.
What is even worse is that the exceptions to the other general rules on employing psychic shooting is clearly shown. The precedent is not to go down the list of general rules and check them off for "instead of or similar" clauses or statement, but instead to employ the psychic shooting attack by however the codex tells you to. People are just flat out ignoring how codex exceptions are being applied to other general rules, and setting the standard for rolling to hit based on something else.
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Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:Thunderclap;
Does not check range, you do not declare a target, you do not check LoS; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Not familiar - which codex? I'm at work, but have some access to some.
JotWW;
Does not check range, you do not declare a target, you do not roll to wound; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Actually, you can check range, and you do declare a target and roll to hit. It just so happens that in this case, that roll is irrelevant. And you don't roll to wound because there is no STR listed in the profile.
Blood Lance;
Does not check range, does not declare a target, does not check LoS; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Using this power as an example in a discussion about this power doesn't work so well. 
Now an exception to employing a psychic power does not need to have a "instead of" or similiar to be an exception. As the rule is written, the codex only has to give a different method of employment of the psychic power to be an exception. Nos actually said it best when he was trying to correct me by saying,
I used the word "example" a number of times in my argument, you just apparently enjoy ignoring the inconvenient parts.
Because in reality, those are exactly that, examples. That does not limit them to just those examples because we have proof in other psychic shooting attacks on how codex exceptions to employing psychic shooting attacks are used for other general rules. Again with my Thunderclap example,
Thunderclap does not have you check LoS and it does not contain, "instead of or similar" to exclude it from the general rule for checking LoS. Yet, you employ the psychic shooting attack per the codex exception to the general rule of checking LoS.
JotWW does not roll for wounds and it does not contain, "instead of or similar" to exclude it from the general rule for rolling to wound. Yet you employ the psychic shooting attack per the codex exception to the general rule of rolling to wound.
I think that is probably my main contention with the rolling to hit crowd. You are arbitrarily applying a standard to the rolling to hit exception that you are not applying to the other psychic shooting attacks that also do not contain the "instead of or similar" wording for codex exceptions to the general rules in their entries.
I'm not arbitrarily applying anything - I'd apply the same thing to JotWW (and have).
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Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:Thunderclap;
Does not check range, you do not declare a target, you do not check LoS; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Not familiar - which codex? I'm at work, but have some access to some.
JotWW;
Does not check range, you do not declare a target, you do not roll to wound; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Actually, you can check range, and you do declare a target and roll to hit. It just so happens that in this case, that roll is irrelevant. And you don't roll to wound because there is no STR listed in the profile.
Blood Lance;
Does not check range, does not declare a target, does not check LoS; at no time are you told NOT to do those general rules.
Using this power as an example in a discussion about this power doesn't work so well.
Now an exception to employing a psychic power does not need to have a "instead of" or similiar to be an exception. As the rule is written, the codex only has to give a different method of employment of the psychic power to be an exception. Nos actually said it best when he was trying to correct me by saying,
I used the word "example" a number of times in my argument, you just apparently enjoy ignoring the inconvenient parts.
Because in reality, those are exactly that, examples. That does not limit them to just those examples because we have proof in other psychic shooting attacks on how codex exceptions to employing psychic shooting attacks are used for other general rules. Again with my Thunderclap example,
Thunderclap does not have you check LoS and it does not contain, "instead of or similar" to exclude it from the general rule for checking LoS. Yet, you employ the psychic shooting attack per the codex exception to the general rule of checking LoS.
JotWW does not roll for wounds and it does not contain, "instead of or similar" to exclude it from the general rule for rolling to wound. Yet you employ the psychic shooting attack per the codex exception to the general rule of rolling to wound.
I think that is probably my main contention with the rolling to hit crowd. You are arbitrarily applying a standard to the rolling to hit exception that you are not applying to the other psychic shooting attacks that also do not contain the "instead of or similar" wording for codex exceptions to the general rules in their entries.
I'm not arbitrarily applying anything - I'd apply the same thing to JotWW (and have).
Thunderclap;
Pass a psychic test, place the blast marker so it is touching base of the rune priest, anything touched by the marker are hit.
Care to show me how you check range with JotWW? And you do not declare a target. You check LoS to the first model the power will affect, which effectively makes it the target model, however you never declare a target per the general rules.
As for not rolling to wound, not having a Str value is not a "instead of or similar" clause that is being proposed as a requirement for an exception. You do not roll to wound because the psychic power has an exception to that general rule telling you that models that fail an initiative test are removed from play. Which again, is not the proposed, "instead of or similar" clause that you are trying to apply to rolling to hit.
And Blood Lance works perfectly fine despite being part of this discussion because it follows exceptions to other general rules, not just rolling to hit, but does not contain "instead of or similar" for those general rules.
As for your last point, then you are being inconsistent with your rules. If you are going to insist on a "instead of or similar" clause for the general rule for rolling to hit, then you must insist on a "instead of or similar" clause for all of them. Your own defense of not rolling to wound for JotWW being "it does not have a str value" does not even pass your own litmus test.
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Post by: Happyjew
Thunderclap is a poor example. It tells you how to place a blast marker, and blast markers have never required a 'To Hit' roll.
6769
Post by: Tri
Happyjew wrote:Thunderclap is a poor example. It tells you how to place a blast marker, and blast markers have never required a 'To Hit' roll.
Blast weapons do not roll to hit (instead roll for scatter) however thunder clap is not using the blast rule only the blast template. As per the FAQ all psychic shooting attacks roll to hit.
48860
Post by: Joey
"Soulstorm" doesn't mention having to roll scatter dice, so I guess I don't have to.
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Post by: chewielight
I dont see how anyone comes to the conclusion that there is a roll to hit needed. The power states how it works. Lets see if I can prove my point.
Blood Lance:
This power is a psyhic shooting attack. Extend a straight line,4d6 long from thelib in any direction. Any enemy unit in the path suffers a single hit.
So by codex the only thing you must do is extend a line 4d6 in any direction. They only include its a shooting attack because it is done in the shooting phase. BRB doesnt superside codex in this instance. If you require a hit to extend the line then you modify the power beyond its intent or as written. There cant be a roll to hit if the power tells you it hits already just by touching the line. It sounds like rolling a reroll.
How can roll a hit if it tells you it hits?
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Post by: Joey
What you have would be correct if it was NOT a pyscic shooting attack.
If it was "just" a pyschic attack, then that would be the end of it. But unless stated otherwise, pyschic shooting attacks need to roll to hit.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Joey wrote:What you have would be correct if it was NOT a pyscic shooting attack.
If it was "just" a pyschic attack, then that would be the end of it. But unless stated otherwise, pyschic shooting attacks need to roll to hit.
He's correct as it is. It hits units under the line, saying you need to roll to hit to make hits ... get outta here lol
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Post by: Joey
It hits the units it hits...but it has to roll first. How is this difficult?
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Post by: chewielight
Not difficult really. The power already states that it hits. It already states how to check for range and since there isnt a target it states that it goes in any direction. You arent aiming at a unit or model but in a direction.
Actually I would be ok with rolling to hit since it doesnt matter with the outcome. Roll for power(assume it passes) roll to hit (pass or fail) still doesnt negate the power and still doesnt miss because the power states that a line is to be drawn (you dont have the option of not drawing the line based on the rule) and that any unit under the line suffers a single hit. Pretty cut and dry to me.
My arguement would be that the straight line(which the power says you must draw) would be treated as a templet.
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Post by: Saiisil
chewielight, The thing that has me on the side of roll to his it that there exists at least 1 other rule out there that draws a line and everything under the line takes a hit but you still need to roll to hit first.
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Post by: chewielight
Which power is that? JoWW doesnt have the same wording as BL does. JoWW states that "As a psyhic shooting attack,the Rune Priest may extend a line 24" from the priest. The difference is that it doesnt state that it is a hit or an automatic hit where as BL DOES state that the unit suffers a hit.
No where in either BRB,FAQ/Errata nor codex is there a rule or function that makes a model or unit suffer/roll a hit twice if an item states that the suffer the hit to begin withunless it is a multi-barrage weapon. That is the gist of BL. The power hits because it states that it hits. Making someone roll to hit doesnt negate the rule of the power nor how it reacts. The codex is pretty clear on how the power works.
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Post by: Saiisil
First thing I can think of off the top of my head was written by Phil Kelly (In my opinion a considerably better rules writer the Matt Ward) and that is the Vibro Cannon. Other then that I know that the Death Ray in the new Necron Codex has similar rules as well, I don't know the exact wording of it yet as I haven't been able to read the full description yet just 1 sentence of it which is under contention with how it works.
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Post by: chewielight
Just so happen to have both of those codexs handy so lets see.
Vibro cannon.
When firing a vibro cannon, Roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro-cannons hit draw a single straight line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes suffers D6 hits.
I wont post the BL rules again. Similar yes but different in both items. The VC tells you to roll to hit. BL states that they ARE hit. BL states to extend a line 4d6,VC states roll first then if you hit draw a line.
If the FAQ were an erratta then I would agree.
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Post by: Saiisil
The thing is the rules as I am sure we can all agree are permissive which means we need to have permission to do something. There exists precedence in the rules that a roll to hit needs to be made before placing a line. Also on the same page as BL state is a single sentence before describing how the powers work there exist iirc 3 powers that state "This is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits." then go on to describe what the powers do.
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Post by: chewielight
Saiisil wrote:The thing is the rules as I am sure we can all agree are permissive which means we need to have permission to do something. There exists precedence in the rules that a roll to hit needs to be made before placing a line. Also on the same page as BL state is a single sentence before describing how the powers work there exist iirc 3 powers that state "This is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits." then go on to describe what the powers do.
Sure they are permissive and the permission is/has already been granted as it tells you exactly how the power works. There isnt a precedence because one is a weapon and states that a roll to hit needs to be made. Your right there are iic 3 powers that state this however each power also targets a unit/model.Since it targets a unit/model it would require a roll to hit said unit. BL is unique because it is aimed at a direction and not a unit. Units just happen to be affected by said power if they are in the line that the power states you must draw (like a templet).
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Post by: Saiisil
The point is when bringing up those 3 powers is that what they do is a part of a completely separate sentence then what it describes it does, just as with BL where it is described as a PSA is a different sentence from where it describes what it does that, just because of that, I believe the roll to hit is needed.
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Post by: chewielight
Saiisil wrote:The point is when bringing up those 3 powers is that what they do is a part of a completely separate sentence then what it describes it does, just as with BL where it is described as a PSA is a different sentence from where it describes what it does that, just because of that, I believe the roll to hit is needed.
See that is where we differ. Those three powers are like BL in that they state exactly how they work and what is needed to work. They state that they are an auto hit because the only way to hit a specific target is to roll to hit. This fixes that arguement because it states so in in the rule. This is where I feel you are incorrect in your logic with this arguement. It is a different sentence because it has to be being a psyhic shooting attack doesnt always mean it requires you to roll a hit because there are execptions to it(IE templets of any time). If BL targeted a single unit/s I would agree that a to hit roll would be needed. It targets a direction not a unit and as such cant really miss in that regard.
Addtionally if you read those other powers you will see that in none of them does it state that once they pass the roll to hit they are hit again(this is the arguement your making)because if you hit then you hit and no roll is necssary. If BL worked the way you state it does means that you would have to cast the power, roll to hit, THEN because the power works as discribed the unit are hit (wait you just rolled a hit so why state it twice).
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Post by: Shinkaze
Bad GW FAQs are too blame for this confusion.
BA Codex says Blood Lance causes hits.
Rulebook FAQ says psychic attacks have to roll to hit. They say that because people don't want to roll to hit they just want to hit. In response GW should say *crickets*. Instead they say you need to roll to hit for Psychic attacks with a weapon profile. By that I think they mean the profiles like you would see in the back of the codex.
Blood Lance just says anyone in the line suffers a Str 8 Ap1 Lance hit. It says you suffer a hit. It doesn't say you may be hit. It does not have a weapon profile.
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Post by: Saiisil
chewielight wrote:Addtionally if you read those other powers you will see that in none of them does it state that once they pass the roll to hit they are hit again(this is the arguement your making)because if you hit then you hit and no roll is necssary. If BL worked the way you state it does means that you would have to cast the power, roll to hit, THEN because the power works as discribed the unit are hit (wait you just rolled a hit so why state it twice).
Yet isn't that exactly what the Vibro Cannon says, after saying you roll to hit, you hit again? Why did they state it twice if it doesn't make sense to do so.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
Happyjew wrote:Thunderclap is a poor example. It tells you how to place a blast marker, and blast markers have never required a 'To Hit' roll.
Wrong. Thunderclap is not a blast weapon. It uses the marker, but is not a blast weapon. The reason why units touched by the blast marker are hit by Thunderclap is not because you are using a blast weapon, but because the rule is a codex exception to employing a psychic shooting attack and it tells you that models touched by the blast marker are hit.
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Post by: Happyjew
Brother Ramses wrote:
Wrong. Thunderclap is not a blast weapon.
I never said it was.
Brother Ramses wrote:
It uses the marker, but is not a blast weapon.
So all PSA that use the blast marker, are not blast weapons. I'm almost 100% certain you still follow the rules on page 30 unless told differently (i.e. place the marker anywhere so it's in base contact with the model)
Brother Ramses wrote:
The reason why units touched by the blast marker are hit by Thunderclap is not because you are using a blast weapon, but because the rule is a codex exception to employing a psychic shooting attack and it tells you that models touched by the blast marker are hit.
Which is exactly the same a blast weapons, all models whose bases are under the marker are hit.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
No, only psychic shooting attacks that have blast in their profile are blast weapons.
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Post by: chewielight
Saiisil wrote:chewielight wrote:Addtionally if you read those other powers you will see that in none of them does it state that once they pass the roll to hit they are hit again(this is the arguement your making)because if you hit then you hit and no roll is necssary. If BL worked the way you state it does means that you would have to cast the power, roll to hit, THEN because the power works as discribed the unit are hit (wait you just rolled a hit so why state it twice).
Yet isn't that exactly what the Vibro Cannon says, after saying you roll to hit, you hit again? Why did they state it twice if it doesn't make sense to do so.
Not quite. The Vibro cannon needs a roll to hit in order to hit because it tells you that is how it works. BL tells you exactly how it works as well. No roll to hit needed because there is no target. They need to errata this but that wont happen.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Theres no target for a vibrocannon either.
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Post by: BeefCakeSoup
Pretty sure a Template or Psi powers without a "Type" doesn't roll to hit if it has an alternate mode of hitting like drawing a 4D6 line to reach its target.
Rolling to Hit applies to powers like "Smite" that have a Str, AP, and Type profile for purposes of shooting. If you had to roll to hit with Blood Lance I'd want to know what kind of type the weapon was, Rapid Fire? Assault? Heavy 1? Barring older Codices I think the trend has been to give a special rule for things like Jotww and BL when it comes to how they hit.
Just my two cents.
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Post by: Joey
If it didn't require a to-hit, it would just be a PSYCHIC attack, rather than a PSYCHIC SHOOTING attack.
Note that the eldar "Mind War" is NOT a psychic shooting attack, therefore does not require a roll to hit.
This debate was settled a few pages ago.
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Post by: rigeld2
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rolling to Hit applies to powers like "Smite" that have a Str, AP, and Type profile for purposes of shooting or powers that state they are a psychic shooting attack.
Fixed that for you with actual rules.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Joey - I suggest you look at the Eldar FAQ. Its been a PSA for a LONG time now.
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Post by: chewielight
nosferatu1001 wrote:Theres no target for a vibrocannon either.
Yeah but there is a clause in the actual rule which states it needs to make a roll to hit.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
As opposed to PSAs which need to roll to hit, you mean?
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Post by: chewielight
Joey wrote:If it didn't require a to-hit, it would just be a PSYCHIC attack, rather than a PSYCHIC SHOOTING attack.
Note that the eldar "Mind War" is NOT a psychic shooting attack, therefore does not require a roll to hit.
This debate was settled a few pages ago.
It doesnt require a roll to hit because it isnt aiming at anything. Thats my point. There is no target but a direction. The power doesnt follow most weapons (not even the VC as it has a profile).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:As opposed to PSAs which need to roll to hit, you mean?
So your stating that ALL PSA's need to roll to hit and there are no exceptions? This is why FAQ's are not erratas. If it targeted a unit or model I would agree with you, but this is not the case with BL.
We like to say this is a permissive rule set and all that it entails,however you would need permission in the codex: BA to follow normal shooting rules which BL tells you not to since shooting attacks and PSA's MUST follow all shooting rules unles stated otherwise.
To confuse the argument further (I am sure this has been said already) Shooting wether psyhic or normal works as follows.
1. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this)
2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction)
3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)
4. Roll to wound
5. take saves
6. remove casulties.
As you can see based on the BRB and C: BA there would be no to hit roll needed as well as no way for the power to miss.
In none of the arguements has it been disproved that we have permission to ignore the wording in C: BA or BRB on how to follow sequence in shooting nor how this paticular PSA works.
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Post by: imweasel
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but bringing up the vibro cannon, while useful, really isn't.
By using a similar weapon to explain how this works would mean that 40k rules rulings are based on precedent.
Which they aren't. Just keep that in mind folks...
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Post by: chewielight
imweasel wrote:Not to rain on anyone's parade, but bringing up the vibro cannon, while useful, really isn't.
By using a similar weapon to explain how this works would mean that 40k rules rulings are based on precedent.
Which they aren't. Just keep that in mind folks...
That is the problem is that precedent needs to follow something EXACTLY the same. There is no RAI v RAW on this one because they changed the wording from this power as opposed to all other PSA's.
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Post by: Stoffer
Oh hey, had this exact discussion today. I wish GW would specifically clear this up as the wording can really be interpreted both ways.
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Post by: BlapBlapBlap
 The Codex states, and I quote:
Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the Lance's path suffers a single Str 8 AP1 hit with the Lance Type.
So:
Psychic Test (If failed nothing happens)
Roll 4D6 and add results
Extend a line from the base of the Librarian in any direction which is as long as the total in the last step
Roll to wound enemy units under the line.
Take saves and apply results.
All cleared up.
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Post by: rigeld2
Wow. Its a good thing no one else ever quoted the rule or cited that sentence. You sure showed us.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
What does that post add to the debate?
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Post by: Joey
Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?
Well quoting the text itself is pointless. No one is saying "ohh the rules specifically say that it doesn't have to hit". On the contrary, they are saying that the rules do NOT say that, hence the need to roll to hit.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Joey wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?
Well quoting the text itself is pointless. No one is saying "ohh the rules specifically say that it doesn't have to hit". On the contrary, they are saying that the rules do NOT say that, hence the need to roll to hit.
Actually the rules quoted says it "hits" implying a roll to hit is not needed.
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Post by: Joey
sigh.
No, it's simple English syntax. I'm not going to teach you how to read and write but I suggest you re-read the original wording.
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Post by: chewielight
rigeld2 wrote:Wow. Its a good thing no one else ever quoted the rule or cited that sentence. You sure showed us.
There is really no need for snarkish comments and snide remarks.
Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?
Nothing at all.
Joey wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?
Well quoting the text itself is pointless. No one is saying "ohh the rules specifically say that it doesn't have to hit". On the contrary, they are saying that the rules do NOT say that, hence the need to roll to hit.
If you follow my turn sequence comment, this falls in line and no one has argued against it with anything other than ( IT's a PSA). Once again follow my arguement on the power and PSA's in general and its almost impossbile to counter it.
Joey wrote:sigh.
No, it's simple English syntax. I'm not going to teach you how to read and write but I suggest you re-read the original wording.
Once again there isnt a reason for snide comments Joey. What you,Rigeld2 and a few others have been argueing against this entire time is that its a PSA and hence via FAQ rolls to hit are required. What the FAQ is alluding to is that PSA's are shooting attacks that follow the rules for shooting outlined in the BRB.Please come up with something that isnt a backlash on the debate that will prove your points.
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Post by: Happyjew
As was pointed out, and if you check the codex you can confirm this yourself, there are other powers on the same page that specifically state that they either auto-hit or don't require a to hit roll. Yet, this is lacking from Blood Lance. Since nothing in Blood Lance tells you that it does not require a to hit roll, and it's a PSA, you MUST roll to hit. If successful, you then roll for distance and draw the line.
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Post by: chewielight
once again you are not following the shooting sequence and the wording isnt the same. Just because there are three powers that are worded auto hit means nothing and brings nothing to this debate.The others have autohit in the power because of how their powers work and because they would be following PSA (shooting sequence rules) if not for the autohit tidbit. So there still isnt any reasonable arguement that refutes what I have written.
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Post by: rigeld2
You claim there's no need for a target. You claim there's no way to check range. You left out checking Line of Sight.
There is a target - the unit you're trying to hit with the line you're going to draw.
There is a way to check range - the max range is 24".
You do have to check LoS to the target unit.
You do have to roll to hit.
There are no - zero, nada, none - exceptions in the BL rules exempting you from any of those. The "hit all under the line" allows you to hit multiple units after you hit the first one.
It's a PSA. It must follow certain rules. Skipping LOS, targeting, etc. when there is not an exemption/exception is breaking the rules.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
There is no target, you can draw the line over nothing if you choose.
No way to check range, it's range is random. there's only a max possibility. so 4"-24"
Disagree to check LoS, nowhere are you told to. However as it's a dread it can only fire in its arc iirc.
No roll to hit, as units under the line are hit already.
Units suffer a hit under the line. It'd be like rolling to hit with Vortex of Doom, than rolling the scatter to see if it hits or scatters.
It's a PSA it follows certain rules that apply.
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Post by: chewielight
rigeld2 wrote:You claim there's no need for a target. You claim there's no way to check range. You left out checking Line of Sight.
It isnt a claim its how the rule works.
There is a target - the unit you're trying to hit with the line you're going to draw.
Where in the power does it state that you are targeting a unit?It doesnt just a direction. You cant make up rules to suite your case.
There is a way to check range - the max range is 24".
The line draw from the 4d6 is the range (I never stated range wasnt an issue just the results is the debate)
You do have to check LoS to the target unit.
Once again no target unit needed as the power states differently. LOS wasnt contended against. Dont know where you got this part.
You do have to roll to hit.
There are no - zero, nada, none - exceptions in the BL rules exempting you from any of those. The "hit all under the line" allows you to hit multiple units after you hit the first one.
It's a PSA. It must follow certain rules. Skipping LOS, targeting, etc. when there is not an exemption/exception is breaking the rules.
You are reaching here brother and reaching badly. As you can see I have proven that your arguements arent valid. Stating you must roll to hit doesnt validate your stance,because you would need to prove your stance, which you havent. There are exceptions in BL as I have laid out in very plain context which still hasnt been argued against. You are correct that as a PSA you must follow certain rules and those rules are the same as shooting with any other ranged weapon(unless a rules exempts you in which BL does). You cant enforce rules when the codex gives an exemtion. The exemption is in the wording of the BL power as I wrote prior. BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.
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Post by: rigeld2
chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.
Yes. Correct. 100%.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.
PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.
By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.
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Post by: Happyjew
Retracted. Was responding to something on the first page.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.
Yes. Correct. 100%.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.
PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.
By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.
It says to draw a line, it does not say pick a unit eh? no target
How do you check LoS if you have no target?
Show me a rule that allows you to measure out more than the weapon can potentially go? that seems like pre measuring to me.
Units the line touches are hit. Again how do you play Vortex of Doom? Roll to hit, than roll the scatter?
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Post by: chewielight
rigeld2 wrote:chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.
Yes. Correct. 100%.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
see my comment about #1
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
see my comment on LOS
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
See my comment on range
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.
See my comment on rolling to hit
PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.
I have addressed this time and again.
By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.
Sigh. I have already shown you the rule for ALL of those items and the last about PSA but I will do so again due to I love a good debate.These are the rules for the power as it affects being a shooting attack or in other words a PSA (which again is pyschic SHOOTING attack that follows ALL shooting rules except if told differently which BL does)
1.. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this) BL states that you choose a direction (you cant force someone to choose a unit when the power states differently (permissive rules state you need permission to make me choose a target or permission for me to actually choose one What it does give you is permission to choose a direction and only a direction) Your making up your own rules based on what you WISH the rules states.
2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction) I know it will upset you on this but I have no other choice. Check range for a direction is the KEY here not a unit, also the fun about this is that there is no checking of range because its not a check but an actual measurement (ok I am reaching a tad but serisouly this is silly to begin with). TLOS isnt the issue. TLOS would matter if you had to target a unit and since that isnt the case what are you drawing LOS. This doesnt change the power nor how it works. Once again your attempting for force what you wish instead of what is.
3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)
4. Roll to wound
5. take saves
6. remove casulties.
PSA is about shooting and shooting attacks DO require a roll to hit unless wargear or in this case power tells you differently. This is my point.
Addtionally if you had to roll to hit you would be breaking BRB because you would not be following the rules for shooting. You cant therefore pick a target,roll to hit, THEN check range and do your wound/armor rolls along with the rest. So do we follow BRB/codex as RAW or RAI. You must follow them in sequence along with all shooting attacks either normal or PSA. Better yet lets turn the table Show me the rule that backs up your stance. Show me the rule that states you can ignore the shooting rules.
Your move sir.
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Post by: rigeld2
1.. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this)BL states that you choose a direction (you cant force someone to choose a unit when the power states differently (permissive rules state you need permission to make me choose a target or permission for me to actually choose one What it does give you is permission to choose a direction and only a direction) Your making up your own rules based on what you WISH the rules states.
Actually, I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other - I don't play BA and no one I know does, so I'm not wishing anything. Please don't assume that I'm biased one way or the other.
You have explicit permission to pick a target because it's a PSA. Guess what other power draws a line in any direction, and still has a target and LOS requirements and has to roll to hit? If you're going to argue that "choose a direction" is your target, I'm going to break out a protractor and demand you pick a degree. Because similar to pre-measuring, you can't lay down the line and then say that's where you're going to put it.
2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction) I know it will upset you on this but I have no other choice. Check range for a direction is the KEY here not a unit, also the fun about this is that there is no checking of range because its not a check but an actual measurement (ok I am reaching a tad but serisouly this is silly to begin with). TLOS isnt the issue. TLOS would matter if you had to target a unit and since that isnt the case what are you drawing LOS. This doesnt change the power nor how it works. Once again your attempting for force what you wish instead of what is.
Again with your assumptions. You have a 24" range on the power. If you measure and your target unit isn't in range, there's no point in continuing with the other steps. You munged LOS in here with range, but you do need to check LOS.
3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)
Roll to hit the first unit, the line sentence is clarifying that you don't have to roll for the rest (if the power hits). The power does not state no roll is needed, it does not state that the power automatically hits, it doesn't say "instead of rolling to hit" or have any other similar language... unlike the other BA powers on the same page that do actually skip the roll to hit step.
Your move sir.
This isn't tennis or any other game, because I seriously doubt either of us will "win" this debate. I was silently letting the thread die before, now how about we just let it die and say that it needs to be FAQed either way.
Also - please use punctuation and paragraphs. It makes your posts much easier to read.
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Post by: chewielight
rigeld2 wrote:1.. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this)BL states that you choose a direction (you cant force someone to choose a unit when the power states differently (permissive rules state you need permission to make me choose a target or permission for me to actually choose one What it does give you is permission to choose a direction and only a direction) Your making up your own rules based on what you WISH the rules states.
Actually, I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other - I don't play BA and no one I know does, so I'm not wishing anything. Please don't assume that I'm biased one way or the other.
You have explicit permission to pick a target because it's a PSA. Guess what other power draws a line in any direction, and still has a target and LOS requirements and has to roll to hit? If you're going to argue that "choose a direction" is your target, I'm going to break out a protractor and demand you pick a degree. Because similar to pre-measuring, you can't lay down the line and then say that's where you're going to put it.
Then you would be breaking the rules with C: BA. It doesnt because it says it doesnt. Break out your protractor all you like it makes no difference. You cant enforce a rule that neither the BRB or C: BA states you can, hence you would need permission.Actually based on C: BA it does state you can "just lay down a line".
2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction) I know it will upset you on this but I have no other choice. Check range for a direction is the KEY here not a unit, also the fun about this is that there is no checking of range because its not a check but an actual measurement (ok I am reaching a tad but serisouly this is silly to begin with). TLOS isnt the issue. TLOS would matter if you had to target a unit and since that isnt the case what are you drawing LOS. This doesnt change the power nor how it works. Once again your attempting for force what you wish instead of what is.
Again with your assumptions. You have a 24" range on the power. If you measure and your target unit isn't in range, there's no point in continuing with the other steps. You munged LOS in here with range, but you do need to check LOS.
Assumptions arent the issue, true RAW IS. Your dont have a set range. You keep trying to gloss over the actual rules though. You dont roll to hit until you choose a target. LOS would be an issue if you targeted a unit and I would agree that if your BL hit a unit while following through with the results that unless you had LOS you couldnt hit because the power doesnt let you ignore LOS.See I dont disagree with this line of reasoning.
3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)
Roll to hit the first unit, the line sentence is clarifying that you don't have to roll for the rest (if the power hits). The power does not state no roll is needed, it does not state that the power automatically hits, it doesn't say "instead of rolling to hit" or have any other similar language... unlike the other BA powers on the same page that do actually skip the roll to hit step.
You cant roll to hit first sir, you just cant. Shooting rules are fairly easily outlined. Making someone roll to hit is actually breaking the rules. It does state that you hit though as long as you fullfill the other requirements. The other BA powers that you and others are flounting are ALL powers that target actual units and that is why they put automatically hit there. They are ALL powers that follow normal shooting rules in that they all have a target,a range,a roll to hit (hits automatically), and an outcome. I really cant see the logic in your arguement.
Your move sir.
This isn't tennis or any other game, because I seriously doubt either of us will "win" this debate. I was silently letting the thread die before, now how about we just let it die and say that it needs to be FAQed either way.
Also - please use punctuation and paragraphs. It makes your posts much easier to read.
Punctuation and paragraphs on a cell phone sucks LOL. Sorry I will try harder in the future.
I am not making a game out of this debate. I truely feel that the arguements that have followed are not correct and that is why I have made my case. Said thing is I am one of these guys who if I believe is right I dont back down unless I am shown a logical resolution or pointed our clearly I am wrong. I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Chewie - he HAS shown his argument
ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)
Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.
Yes. Correct. 100%.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.
PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.
By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.
Wrong.
This is where your entire argument falls apart because it is based on the above false premise. The BRB tells you that exceptions to the general rules on EMPLOYING psychic shooting powers will be in the codexes. You do not complete a general rules for employing psychic shooting attacks checklist. If the codex gives you direction on how to employ the psychic power that is different from the general rules, you follow the codex. That is it.
Read the rules for Thunderclap, Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Living Lightning, and Jaws of the World Wolf. You will see prime examples of how you follow the general rules for employing a psychic shooting attack, how you follow codex exceptions for employing a psychic shooting attack, and how you follow BOTH the general and codex exception to employing a psychic shooting attack. Automatically Appended Next Post: nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument
ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)
Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.
No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.
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Post by: Tri
To be frank the problem is the rule don't line up well.
Psychic shooting attacks need LOS, range, to hit ... and so on
but the blood lance does not have a range unless you roll the dice and then measuring the 4D6" gives you the line under which models are hit.
Vibrocannon is a good example of games workshop getting it right, as they tell you exactly what to do. They tell you don't need a target (so no need for LOS), they tell you to roll to hit and they tell you that next you draw the line see what's hit.
Blood lance does not. It tells you it fires in a straight line 4D6" and models under the line take a hit. Without that FAQ there would be no question of rolling to hit and questionable about the target. As it stands this power and other Do require a to hit roll as that's what the FAQ tells us to do ... even if such a thing is stupid.
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Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument
ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)
Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.
No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.
The problem with that argument is either all the powers that have rules pertaining to autohit, etc. are redundant, or your argument is false. I know GW has a penchant for redundancy, but come on...
PSAs have specific rules on the employment.
The power states that it is a PSA, and therefore has pulled in all those specific rules.
The power does not have exceptions for the specific rules and other powers on the same page do.
The power does not have exemptions on it's employment. Automatically Appended Next Post: chewielight wrote:I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.
I've lined out my argument, you just haven't read it (evidently).
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Post by: chewielight
nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument
ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)
Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.
Nosferatu, not all PSA's REQUIRE a target. Blood Lance does have such a rule and it is unique in this manner. There is no ommitting of the rule at all. The power tells you how it works. You are trying to require additional rules to make your point. Following the shooting steps and wording of the power is the only method for resolving this power. Making someone roll to hit is breaking the rules for C: BA and BRB.
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Post by: rigeld2
chewielight wrote:Nosferatu, not all PSA's REQUIRE a target. Blood Lance does have such a rule and it is unique in this manner. There is no ommitting of the rule at all. The power tells you how it works. You are trying to require additional rules to make your point. Following the shooting steps and wording of the power is the only method for resolving this power. Making someone roll to hit is breaking the rules for C:BA and BRB.
The BRB states that PSAs must follow shooting rules. Shooting requires a target. Cite the rule exempting BL from requiring a target - we know it must because it is a PSA as BL states, so you have to find something that says it doesn't.
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Post by: chewielight
rigeld2 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument
ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)
Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.
No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.
The problem with that argument is either all the powers that have rules pertaining to autohit, etc. are redundant, or your argument is false. I know GW has a penchant for redundancy, but come on...
PSAs have specific rules on the employment.
The power states that it is a PSA, and therefore has pulled in all those specific rules.
The power does not have exceptions for the specific rules and other powers on the same page do.
The power does not have exemptions on it's employment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chewielight wrote:I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.
I've lined out my argument, you just haven't read it (evidently).
Once again PSA's are shooting attacks and as such follow ALL shooting rules unless told differently. Blood Lance tells you how it works in realation with a shooting attack. I already listed how these rules effect the power Blood Lance. I have already listed (in detail) how the power reacts with shooting attacks. Yet the arguement continues to be ignored.
I have read your arguement and picked it apart based on how shooting attacks work. Shooting attacks ALL must follow shooting rules or they arent valid. PSA's or normal shooting attacks follow these rules. Requireing a roll to hit actually breaks the rules and not in the power discription for PSA's or BL. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:chewielight wrote:Nosferatu, not all PSA's REQUIRE a target. Blood Lance does have such a rule and it is unique in this manner. There is no ommitting of the rule at all. The power tells you how it works. You are trying to require additional rules to make your point. Following the shooting steps and wording of the power is the only method for resolving this power. Making someone roll to hit is breaking the rules for C:BA and BRB.
The BRB states that PSAs must follow shooting rules. Shooting requires a target. Cite the rule exempting BL from requiring a target - we know it must because it is a PSA as BL states, so you have to find something that says it doesn't.
Shooting only requires a target unless there is an exemption. Blood Lance is one of the only powers (some exceptions) that state that you are pointing in a direction and not at a unit. I guess that is where this boils down to, is a direction a target or is it another thing all together. If the power made you roll a scatter to see if you hit I would be on board and it doesnt
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Post by: rigeld2
chewielight wrote:I have read your arguement and picked it apart based on how shooting attacks work. Shooting attacks ALL must follow shooting rules or they arent valid. PSA's or normal shooting attacks follow these rules. Requireing a roll to hit actually breaks the rules and not in the power discription for PSA's or BL.
You have not once, ever, cited a rule that allows you to ignore LOS, targeting, Rolling to hit, or checking range. You haven't picked anything apart because of a lack of those rule citations.
Blood Lance states that it is a PSA - yes or no?
PSAs must have a target, check LOS, check range, and roll to hit - yes or no?
Blood Lance has no rule statements that exempt it from these requirements - yes or no?
You may be asserting that some of the rules in Blood Lance *imply* exemptions, but that is a far cry from there being exemptions. Automatically Appended Next Post: chewielight wrote:Shooting only requires a target unless there is an exemption. Blood Lance is one of the only powers (some exceptions) that state that you are pointing in a direction and not at a unit. I guess that is where this boils down to, is a direction a target or is it another thing all together. If the power made you roll a scatter to see if you hit I would be on board and it doesnt
Either you pick a target, or you pick a degree out of 360 (I'm being nice and not making you pick one of 4 "directions").
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Post by: chewielight
rigeld2 wrote:chewielight wrote:I have read your arguement and picked it apart based on how shooting attacks work. Shooting attacks ALL must follow shooting rules or they arent valid. PSA's or normal shooting attacks follow these rules. Requireing a roll to hit actually breaks the rules and not in the power discription for PSA's or BL.
You have not once, ever, cited a rule that allows you to ignore LOS, targeting, Rolling to hit, or checking range. You haven't picked anything apart because of a lack of those rule citations.
Blood Lance states that it is a PSA - yes or no?
PSAs must have a target, check LOS, check range, and roll to hit - yes or no?
Blood Lance has no rule statements that exempt it from these requirements - yes or no?
You may be asserting that some of the rules in Blood Lance *imply* exemptions, but that is a far cry from there being exemptions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chewielight wrote:Shooting only requires a target unless there is an exemption. Blood Lance is one of the only powers (some exceptions) that state that you are pointing in a direction and not at a unit. I guess that is where this boils down to, is a direction a target or is it another thing all together. If the power made you roll a scatter to see if you hit I would be on board and it doesnt
Either you pick a target, or you pick a degree out of 360 (I'm being nice and not making you pick one of 4 "directions").
I have cited the rule and how they affect PSA's. BL is a PSA yes. Yes on the second but BL has an exception (which I stated) It does.
Looks like we will keep kicking a dead horse.
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Post by: rigeld2
You've cited a rule that might imply an exemption. It does not state an exemption. Implications are not rules until an FAQ clarifies the implication.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument
ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)
Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.
Like I've said before and I'll say again. It seems as clean cut as using Vortex of Doom. You wouldnt roll to hit than roll the scatter, and Blood Lance tells you explicitly how to use it and the fact it hits units that the line go's over. It also does not have a target but a Direction.
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Post by: Happyjew
If Vortex uses the blast marker, then you use blast rules, which state "Instead of rolling to hit..."
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Post by: rigeld2
btw - the reason I'm not commenting on powers in other codexes is because my backpack with all my codexes (and big BRB) was stolen a few weeks ago... and I haven't spent the few hundred dollars to replace it yet. I still have my Tyranid dex and little rb, so I can still play \o/
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Chewie - you are yet to provide a rule that gives an exemption to the standard shooting rules. Until you do so you have not provided an argument
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Post by: chewielight
rigeld2 wrote:btw - the reason I'm not commenting on powers in other codexes is because my backpack with all my codexes (and big BRB) was stolen a few weeks ago... and I haven't spent the few hundred dollars to replace it yet. I still have my Tyranid dex and little rb, so I can still play \o/
That sucks man and I feel your pain.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - you are yet to provide a rule that gives an exemption to the standard shooting rules. Until you do so you have not provided an argument
Nos funny you stated it like that. My point the entire time was that it follows the standard shooting rules in so much as how the power works.
I am going to list it again because its fun. Standard shooting rules as follows:
1. Check LOS and pick a target (this has been debated) Brb states you need choose a unit but C: BA states choose a direction. I dont disagree with LOS
2. Check range (this is not the question either because range is a line 4d6)
3. Roll to hit (this the contended part) Your argument is a roll is needed but the power stays they suffer a hit if the line touches a unit. This is the item that needs to be an FAQ. This is the unique stance that no other power in the codex has.
Going by RAW in C: BA it's pretty cut and dry except its not lol. Funny thing is I hate this power just because of this vague rule set.
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Post by: Happyjew
Normally when you shoot you hit just the first unit (assuming you are not shooting a unit behind another unit). Blood Lance hits all units that the line crosses. However, you still need to roll to hit to see if the you hit the first unit.
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Post by: kirsanth
Bloodlance does not have a target, but does need to roll to hit.
The lack of a target is not really up for debate - see the FAQ regarding assaulting after its use. If you "target" Khârn and end up hitting a unit behind him, you have to assault the unit behind him and cannot assault Khârn.
The need for a to-hit shouldn't be - the page it is on has explicit examples of the verbage needed to avoid the roll - but well. . .here we are.
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Post by: chewielight
Happyjew that doesnt follow the shooting rules. By that line of reasoning you would have to roll to hit each unit but the power contradicts this. You cant roll to hit when the power states that it hits already.
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Post by: Happyjew
All PSA's follow the following (unless noted otherwise)
1. Make a psychic test.
2. Check LOS and pick a target.
3. Check Range
4. Roll to hit.
5. Roll to wound
6. Take saves.
7. Remove casualties.
Now lets break this down.
1. AFAIK only Eldar Warlocks (and Shadowseer upgrade for Harlequins) do not require psychic tests to use their powers. this is specifically stated in the Eldar codex.
2. LOS can be argued either way for Blood Lance. However that is not the point of this debate. Same as picking a target.
3. If the nearest enemy unit is more than 24" away (Blood Lance max range) then the attack is going to hit nothing, and has been wasted. If the nearest enemy unit is within 24" then there is a possibility of being hit.
4. All powers and weapons that do not require a to hit roll specifically state one of two things:
a) This power (weapon) automatically hits...
b) Instead of rolling to hit...
It should be noted that blast and templates follow "b".
5. Roll 1 to wound against majority Toughness (or highest if there is no majority).
6. Take any cover or Invulnerable saves the units might have.
7. Remove any models that have lost their last wounds.
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Post by: BlapBlapBlap
Note that the codex says that the units under the line suffer a single Str 8 AP1 hit. This means the unit has suffered a hit by the Blood Lance, rather than having to roll to hit.
The codex doesn't say about line of sight, but I assume that the attack stops, rather than going through a wall or something. If you want to resolve this you could see if the building is destroyed. You can attack buildings!
Either way some of you seem to be straying off topic with arguments. We are here to try and help, not to spam the thread!
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Post by: kirsanth
BlapBlapBlap wrote: You can attack buildings!
Not if they are empty, oddly enough.
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Post by: BlapBlapBlap
Just checked the GW BA FAQ. It says absolutely nought about Blood Lance, and I stand by the Codex in that case. Automatically Appended Next Post: kirsanth wrote:BlapBlapBlap wrote: You can attack buildings!
Not if they are empty, oddly enough.
Or just roll for AP as if they were occupied. Remember, the one most important rule is no rules are that important.
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Post by: kirsanth
BlapBlapBlap wrote:Remember, the one most important rule is no rules are that important.
When discussing rules, that is utterly irrelevant.
At best.
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Post by: BlapBlapBlap
Withdrawn from thread
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Post by: rigeld2
BlapBlapBlap wrote:It kind of does. Rather than wrecking a perfectly good game by following the rules to a T, adapt the situation so both players are happy.
I think this applies here in particular. Use common sense to resolve this. The wording fails to be clear about line of sight, so make something up!
You might want to read the Tenents of YMDC. Just saying.
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Post by: Tri
BlapBlapBlap wrote:It kind of does. Rather than wrecking a perfectly good game by following the rules to a T, adapt the situation so both players are happy.
I think this applies here in particular. Use common sense to resolve this. The wording fails to be clear about line of sight, so make something up!
Ok let me explain why it has no place here. The most important rule is that you don't spoil a game over a silly rule roll a D6 and move on ... However once the game is finished you should discuse how it should be played next time ... which is what we're doing right now. As such the most important rule is banded from YMDC as we have passed that point.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument
ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)
Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.
No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.
The problem with that argument is either all the powers that have rules pertaining to autohit, etc. are redundant, or your argument is false. I know GW has a penchant for redundancy, but come on...
PSAs have specific rules on the employment.
The power states that it is a PSA, and therefore has pulled in all those specific rules.
The power does not have exceptions for the specific rules and other powers on the same page do.
The power does not have exemptions on it's employment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chewielight wrote:I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.
I've lined out my argument, you just haven't read it (evidently).
Automatically hits is not an exception. That is where you you are trying to draw a comparison to draw a conclusion from. Automatically hits still means a dice roll takes place, but no matter the result, you still hit.
I find it interesting that you will only accept an exclusion from rolling to hit, yet do not accept specific direction of being hit. Thunderclap tells you all models touched by the template are hit. Blood Lance tells you that models the line passes through are hit. These are by definition, exceptions to employing the psychic power that do not follow the general rules yet you insist on checklist exception which is not what the BRB tells you to do.
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Post by: BeefCakeSoup
rigeld2 wrote:BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rolling to Hit applies to powers like "Smite" that have a Str, AP, and Type profile for purposes of shooting or powers that state they are a psychic shooting attack.
Fixed that for you with actual rules.
Do you have to roll to hit with Psychic shooting attacks?
Yes.
Smite has to hit and has to wound. You don't roll to hit with smite, then roll again to hit with all four attacks. You roll to hit with each of the four attacks.
Blood Lance draws a 24 inch line and then rolls 4D6. Anything under the line takes an automatic hit. Never once is it implied at all that you have to roll to hit with Blood Lance then roll again with 4D6. If it was intended that way it would be included in it's unique shooting profile, but it's not.
If you want to say "But Beef, it's implied as a psychic shooting attack that it has to roll to hit!" I will say this, the reason it's profiled as a psychic shooting attack is for the purposes of when it can be used. If it wasn't labeled as a psychic shooting attack, it would be used in shooting and assault. This was not the intended design, so it was labeled psychic shooting with a unique profile for how it shoots.
A psychic power like Blood Lance wouldn't even make sense if it required you to roll to hit, since it can and often does hit multiple units.
Rule Nerds have turned Psychic Shooting into a second Psychic Hood for powers that draw lines for hits. Never intended that way. People just failed at reading and went overboard.
To those people I have a question, what if your blood lance hits 3 targets? Do you have to roll to hit all three? What if your blood lance hits something out of true line of sight behind a tank? Can you roll to hit? Maybe you guys could flub some more answers.
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Post by: kirsanth
Brother Ramses wrote:These are by definition, exceptions to employing the psychic power that do not follow the general rules yet you insist on checklist exception which is not what the BRB tells you to do.
I do not read them as exceptions, I read them as the result of the successful use of the power.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:You've cited a rule that might imply an exemption. It does not state an exemption. Implications are not rules until an FAQ clarifies the implication.
And again this is not what the rules tell you. The BRB tells you, that exceptions to the general rules on EMPLOYING a psychic shooting attack will be the codex. It does not tell you that exceptions to the general rules will be in the codex. It does not tell you that exceptions to the general rule will be listed. It tells you exceptions to the general rules on EMPLOYING a psychic shooting attack will be in the codexes. If the codex tells you to do something different then the general, that is the exception. It doesn't matter if it is draw a line 24" or kick your opponent in the balls. Those are exceptions to employing the psychic shooting attack that take precedence to using the general rules for employing.
I ask you again, look at how GW has written the psychic shooting attacks of Living Lightning, Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Thunderclap, and Jaws of the World Wolf. I did a breakdown once already, but will do it again;
Living Lightning - No exceptions on employing this power. You follow the general rules for employment.
Fury of the Wolf Spirits - You are given permission to fire more then one ranged profile. The rest of the rule has no exceptions to employing the power, you follow the general rules.
Thunderclap - You are specifically told how to employ the psychic power that does not follow the general rules. Per the BRB, you follow the codex.
Jaws of the World Wolf - You are told specifically how to employ the psychic power that does not follow the general rules. Per the BRB, you follow the codex.
The very writing of the psychic shooting attacks that do and do not follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are written in this style. In the absence of a different method of employing the psychic power, you follow the general rules. Because of the first paragraph of page 50, this is how exceptions to employing psychic shooting attacks have been written into the codexes.
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Post by: kirsanth
Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
kirsanth wrote:Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.
Because it adds nothing as it is a badly written FAQ. GW breaks their game with that one FAQ because if I take that FAQ as written, I can have board wide affect of Murderous Hurricane because I auto-miss when I am not in range of my targeted unit.
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Post by: rigeld2
Brother Ramses wrote:kirsanth wrote:Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.
Because it adds nothing as it is a badly written FAQ. GW breaks their game with that one FAQ because if I take that FAQ as written, I can have board wide affect of Murderous Hurricane because I auto-miss when I am not in range of my targeted unit.
So you get to ignore rules/ FAQs when you feel like it? That's a cool story bro.
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Post by: Config2
btws, you guys know the OP left awhile ago. He is going with the "its a long and skinny template" theory
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Post by: Joey
Config2 wrote:btws, you guys know the OP left awhile ago. He is going with the "its a long and skinny template" theory
No he's not. I voted yes.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Happyjew wrote:If Vortex uses the blast marker, then you use blast rules, which state "Instead of rolling to hit..."
Yep and units under the line suffer a hit, and there is no target, only a direction. There is no defined range so you cannot check til its rolled.
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Post by: Happyjew
Every PSA falls inot 1 of 4 categories.
1. PSA's that state "This power automatically hits..."
2. PSA's that state "Instead of rolling to hit..."
3. PSA's that use either the template or blast marker(s)
4. PSA's that require a 'To Hit' roll.
Which group does Blood Lance fall in? (Here's a hint, it's not 1, 2, or 3)
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Post by: Brother Ramses
rigeld2 wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:kirsanth wrote:Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.
Because it adds nothing as it is a badly written FAQ. GW breaks their game with that one FAQ because if I take that FAQ as written, I can have board wide affect of Murderous Hurricane because I auto-miss when I am not in range of my targeted unit.
So you get to ignore rules/ FAQs when you feel like it? That's a cool story bro.
Not at all. I play it according to the FAQ. The problem with you trying to relate it to Jaws of the World Wolf or Blood Lance is that there is more then one way to miss when shooting.
BRB: pg 17: CHECK RANGE:
All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically.
So to shut down your attempt at throwing a monkey wrench into my arument, all the FAQ for Murderous Hurricane does is introduce yet another codex exception to the psychic shooting power that overrides the above general rule. The codex gives you an exception to employ the psychic power by telling you that the unit takes 3d6 str 3 hits with ap -. The FAQ gives you an exception to employ the psychic shooting power when it tells you that even when the hits miss, the target unit is still affected, which is contrary to the above general rule.
But as I said, it is a crappy FAQ because of what it allows. It does not negate the argument that Blood Lance does not need to roll to hit because it is a codex exception to employing a psychic shooting attack.
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Post by: Happyjew
Brother Ramses wrote:
BRB: pg 17: CHECK RANGE:
All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically.
And Blood Lance maximum effective range is 24". If the nearest enemy unit is 24.1" or more away, then Blood Lance automatically misses.
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Post by: BeefCakeSoup
Rolling to hit on an attack that has a defined entry on how it is designed to hit is redundant.
There are already three variables working against Blood Lance going off. A Psychic Test based on leadership and a possible Psychic Hood are the first two, that all PSA follow. The third is a 4D6 line being rolled to hit the targets. It even states units under the line suffer "a hit"
Adding a fourth deterrent before saves are even factored in would be just plain comedy and wouldn't fit in at all with current rules structure for firing.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Happyjew wrote:Every PSA falls inot 1 of 4 categories.
1. PSA's that state "This power automatically hits..."
2. PSA's that state "Instead of rolling to hit..."
3. PSA's that use either the template or blast marker(s)
4. PSA's that require a 'To Hit' roll.
Which group does Blood Lance fall in? (Here's a hint, it's not 1, 2, or 3)
Every unit under the line suffers a blah blah blah hit looks like a number 1 to me but whatever. Wait huh It doesnt need me to roll to hit because it states its already hit ... weird
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Post by: Happyjew
No, the entry defines how to hit MULTIPLE units. Otherwise you could only hit 1 unit. If your to hit roll fails you hit nothing. Otherwise you hit all units under the line. And for those who have asked, only 1 to hit roll is required. If that is successful you hit all the units under the line. If it is not successful, you hit NOTHING
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Happyjew wrote:No, the entry defines how to hit MULTIPLE units. Otherwise you could only hit 1 unit. If your to hit roll fails you hit nothing. Otherwise you hit all units under the line. And for those who have asked, only 1 to hit roll is required. If that is successful you hit all the units under the line. If it is not successful, you hit NOTHING
Where it states it hits. that is a hit, no roll is needed.
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Post by: Happyjew
Where does it state that it AUTOMATICALLY hits all units under the line, or INSTEAD OF ROLLING TO HIT draw a line? You do not have permission to ignore the rules for PSAs. There is NOTHING in the rule for the power that allows you to Skip steps. Automatically Appended Next Post: jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:There is no defined range so you cannot check til its rolled.
However there IS a maximum effective range (24"), which is what you check before shooting. So yes, you can check MAXIMUM effective range.
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Post by: BeefCakeSoup
Happyjew wrote:Where does it state that it AUTOMATICALLY hits all units under the line, or INSTEAD OF ROLLING TO HIT draw a line? You do not have permission to ignore the rules for PSAs. There is NOTHING in the rule for the power that allows you to Skip steps.
"Any enemy unit in the lances path suffers a single strength 8, AP 1 hit"
It is implied that it automatically hits IF you can MAKE the DISTANCE with 4D6.
Of course, rolling to hit a unit behind a wall without TLoS makes sense! Or rolling to hit once against 5 units!
lol
You guys read into it too much
EDIT:
Btw, the reason it ignores a roll to hit is because it has it's own entry on how it shoots. It's doesn't give a flat profile like smite. It gives a detailed entry on how to use the power. The FAQ was for scrubs who claimed Smite auto-hit.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Happyjew wrote:Where does it state that it AUTOMATICALLY hits all units under the line, or INSTEAD OF ROLLING TO HIT draw a line? You do not have permission to ignore the rules for PSAs. There is NOTHING in the rule for the power that allows you to Skip steps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:There is no defined range so you cannot check til its rolled.
However there IS a maximum effective range (24"), which is what you check before shooting. So yes, you can check MAXIMUM effective range.
Actually the max range is what you roll. If you wanna say it's 24 than you're wrong as I doubt I'll roll 4 6's every time.
and If a Unit suffers a str 8 ap 1 *hit* as it states in it's rule there's no reason to roll. Please look at tesla weapons ( on a 6 and additional 2 hits are scored IIRC) wanna roll to hit with those too?
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Post by: Happyjew
No the max range is 24". Since the range of the weapon is variable, you have a range of 4"-24". However, 24" is still the MAXIMUM range that weapon can possibly shoot.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
HappyJew, you need to go back a page and read why I was quoting range. It has nothing to do with Blood Lance, but instead it was answering Kirsanth and his FAQ challenge of Murderous Hurricane.
You really need to read the BRB on psychic powers. As passionate as you appear about insisting on permission based statements such as "instead of rolling to hit" or similiar that is not how the rules are written. If the codex tells you to do something different then the general rules, you follow the codex. That is it. No checklists, no specific permissions.
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Post by: rigeld2
Except the power specifically says it's a PSA. PSAs have requirements. Therefore there *is* a checklist to follow, and there *must* be exemptions to avoid them.
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Post by: BlapBlapBlap
We are debating whether it hits automatically, not how far it can go!
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Post by: rigeld2
BlapBlapBlap wrote:We are debating whether it hits automatically, not how far it can go!
It's part of the same debate. Either the implications in BL allow it to be exempt from PSA rules, or they don't.
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Post by: BlapBlapBlap
It hits automatically! It says nothing in the FAQ and the codex says it hits automatically! Range works exactly as in other PSAs but this hits as long as it reaches! There is your answer!
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Post by: Joey
BlapBlapBlap wrote:It hits automatically! It says nothing in the FAQ and the codex says it hits automatically! Range works exactly as in other PSAs but this hits as long as it reaches! There is your answer!
Ohhhh yeah I missed that part in the rules explanation where it said "Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit".
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Post by: kirsanth
Brother Ramses wrote:HappyJew, you need to go back a page and read why I was quoting range. It has nothing to do with Blood Lance, but instead it was answering Kirsanth and his FAQ challenge of Murderous Hurricane.
I basically understand that, and almost entirely agree with you. That does not mean I ignore the rule though, any more than I ignore any of them. In all honesty, I entirely expect it to be answered in an FAQ the way you read it. Until then, however. . .I am agreeing to disagree. I never mind playing the weaker interpretation for my army - in this case I play Tyranids, so I would not insist on a to-hit roll. However, if you are not taking one, then I may retract that last sentence since we are apparently on different sides of that idea.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
kirsanth wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:HappyJew, you need to go back a page and read why I was quoting range. It has nothing to do with Blood Lance, but instead it was answering Kirsanth and his FAQ challenge of Murderous Hurricane.
I basically understand that, and almost entirely agree with you.
That does not mean I ignore the rule though, any more than I ignore any of them.
In all honesty, I entirely expect it to be answered in an FAQ the way you read it.
Until then, however. . .I am agreeing to disagree.
I never mind playing the weaker interpretation for my army - in this case I play Tyranids, so I would not insist on a to-hit roll.
However, if you are not taking one, then I may retract that last sentence since we are apparently on different sides of that idea.
I only ignore the ability to abuse the affect mechanic by automatically missing a target out of range. That was my point of ignoring it, not because it is inconvenient to my argument. As I pointed out, the fact that the FAQ tells you that Murderous Hurricane can miss is not proof that it rolls to hit because you can miss by being out of range. Automatically Appended Next Post: Joey wrote:BlapBlapBlap wrote:It hits automatically! It says nothing in the FAQ and the codex says it hits automatically! Range works exactly as in other PSAs but this hits as long as it reaches! There is your answer!
Ohhhh yeah I missed that part in the rules explanation where it said "Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit".
Ohhhhh yeah, you also missed where exceptions to employ psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes and your insistence on a made up statement of "does not require a roll to hit" is not required.
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Post by: kirsanth
Brother Ramses wrote:I only ignore the ability to abuse the affect mechanic by automatically missing a target out of range. That was my point of ignoring it, not because it is inconvenient to my argument. As I pointed out, the fact that the FAQ tells you that Murderous Hurricane can miss is not proof that it rolls to hit because you can miss by being out of range.
I understand that.
It is unlimited range though, by that FAQ.
If you do not use it as such, more power and respect to you.
Which is why I see it as a related issue.
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Post by: rigeld2
kirsanth wrote:In all honesty, I entirely expect it to be answered in an FAQ the way you read it.
Until then, however. . .I am agreeing to disagree.
This.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
kirsanth wrote:Brother Ramses wrote:I only ignore the ability to abuse the affect mechanic by automatically missing a target out of range. That was my point of ignoring it, not because it is inconvenient to my argument. As I pointed out, the fact that the FAQ tells you that Murderous Hurricane can miss is not proof that it rolls to hit because you can miss by being out of range.
I understand that.
It is unlimited range though, by that FAQ.
If you do not use it as such, more power and respect to you.
Which is why I see it as a related issue.
The psychic power does have a specific range, however the effect does not. Bad writing is bad writing.
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Post by: tournytom
Anyone been into gw and got a definitive answer from the horses mouth?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Read the tenets of this forum, and note that, unless you get a FAQ from the studio then the answer is, by definition, not definitive.
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Post by: Brothererekose
tournytom wrote:Anyone been into gw and got a definitive answer from the horses mouth?
Red shirts in the GW stores don't get any more 'official' information than we do. They're register monkeys peddling GW's wares, not rules experts. They range from well informed and smart to ignorant and stupid. I've encountered the gamut.
I'd say the one exception would be the guys working in Nottingham. Well, * should* be the ones working there.
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Post by: Saiisil
I apologize for the threadomancy but GW has finally weighed in with an official FAQ for Blood Lance. Haven't checked for the other 'Line' attacks yet though.
Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it
need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No.
Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170004a_Blood_Angels_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf page 3 question 6
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Post by: Happyjew
Yeah we know. We've known for a couple of weeks now.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Anyway, the question is answered.
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