Ok, so now the Necrons Codex is out and people are probably wondering how they're going to beat it. Well, here's a good place to discuss that sort of thing.

Based on my read-through last night, what stood out to me was:

1. Army-wide I2 is really going to hurt in the Assault Phase. Sure their assault units are pretty hardy with S/T5, but I'm not worried about facing off against them in combat at all. That said, they're more capable than they used to be, and if they get to strike back then it is probably going to sting a bit.
2. Almost non-existent psychic defense. All I saw were Canopek Spyders, and they only have a 3" bubble of protection, which is next to useless. I predict that psychic-reliant armies, like Grey Knights and Eldar, are going to have a lot of fun with the 'Crons.
3. Necron vehicles are relatively fragile. Sure they've got Quantum Shielding, but once that's gone they're toast (and that's if the vehicle doesn't get blown up from being Open-Topped, coupled with any other bonuses). Plus they're no longer immune to melta, MCs.

Definately agree you have a decent chance to stomp the crons in combat, due to init2, however watrch out for wraiths with whips because they drop your unit down to 1.

Agree about psychic defense, youd have to build an army around the spyders for it to be effective.


Its also best to aim to wipe entire units out to prevent resurrection.

Overall the army has alot of mid range shooting, with a few longe range support things, provided you can negate night fight (assuming this will be used by crons a fair amount) a long range army would have some advantage.

Lots of spotlights then.
Getting into a mid/longrange firefight vs. the new 'crons is going to sting, I'd give blood angels odds as the best bet - fast and combat-oriented.
(and they might just hug and make up )

I think the main weakness, other than close combat, is the appalling lack of anti-tank.
The double melta walker might work for a foot list, Heavy Destroyers are quite expensive for a lascannon team, and your heavy support slots are going to get quite croweded (Doomsday, Doom Scythe for anti tank, monolith for general awesome).

I think I might just have to rely on gauss to do my anti-tank work . . .

Ok, so now the Necrons Codex is out and people are probably wondering how they're going to beat it. Well, here's a good place to discuss that sort of thing.

Based on my read-through last night, what stood out to me was:

1. Army-wide I2 is really going to hurt in the Assault Phase. Sure their assault units are pretty hardy with S/T5, but I'm not worried about facing off against them in combat at all. That said, they're more capable than they used to be, and if they get to strike back then it is probably going to sting a bit.

This is their biggest Weakness. CC is still going to hurt pretty badly, and they are almost guaranteed to get swept each time.

2. Almost non-existent psychic defense. All I saw were Canopek Spyders, and they only have a 3" bubble of protection, which is next to useless. I predict that psychic-reliant armies, like Grey Knights and Eldar, are going to have a lot of fun with the 'Crons.

Other armies make Due without Psychic Defense, I'm sure we can as well. Is it a weakness? Sure. Is it a big weakness? No, I'd say it's not.

3. Necron vehicles are relatively fragile. Sure they've got Quantum Shielding, but once that's gone they're toast (and that's if the vehicle doesn't get blown up from being Open-Topped, coupled with any other bonuses). Plus they're no longer immune to melta, MCs.

I'd say this is pretty incorrect here. AV 13 is pretty Huge, as it takes Strength 8 a six to pen it, and remove it's shielding. That's pretty durable. It makes them almost immune to Strength 7, (You'd need a double six to kill it) and very hardy against strength 8+.

Now, on to what I think are weaknesses, besides what I've added in quotes.

Points cost. Everything in the Codex, espially vehicles, is very very expensive points wise. I imagine most tabletops are going to see pretty small armies, Ala GK.

Little Anti-Tank. What Anti-tank we have is really good, but it's not spread around the FOC very well. I think this causes a few issues.

24' bubble. The Army has a lot of great shooting, but 90% of it is limited to the 24' bubble. This is a pretty big deal. We have some things to help mitigate this, but when things step into our killzone, we really need to kill it fast, or it's going maul us in CC.

Most of the Necron stuff are pretty short ranged, though this is not a big deal with solar pulse and storm lord.
CC is gonna hurt them.
Most of their stuff is pretty expensive, especially if you start taking upgrades.

Sasori wrote:

24' bubble. The Army has a lot of great shooting, but 90% of it is limited to the 24' bubble. This is a pretty big deal. We have some things to help mitigate this, but when things step into our killzone, we really need to kill it fast, or it's going maul us in CC.

So when the enemy steps out of your 24" kill zone, you need to kill it fast or its going to...instantly close the gap and assault you to death? If its trukk boyz or fiends they might

From what everyone's saying, the new 'crons can bring the most fire to bear at a 24" range, and have some tough CC units (S/T 5) who suffer on the low initiative. Seems to me that armies like SW or BA who like to get all up in the opponents face are going to give the 'crons their biggest threat. 3 quick questions;

what kind of AT do the new cron's have?
what does gauss weapons do now?
'crons have a wargear/upgrade/character (?) that allows them to start the game with nightfighting, and turn it off when they want, yes?

Jihallah wrote:

Sasori wrote:

24' bubble. The Army has a lot of great shooting, but 90% of it is limited to the 24' bubble. This is a pretty big deal. We have some things to help mitigate this, but when things step into our killzone, we really need to kill it fast, or it's going maul us in CC.

So when the enemy steps out of your 24" kill zone, you need to kill it fast or its going to...instantly close the gap and assault you to death? If its trukk boyz or fiends they might

From what everyone's saying, the new 'crons can bring the most fire to bear at a 24" range, and have some tough CC units (S/T 5) who suffer on the low initiative. Seems to me that armies like SW or BA who like to get all up in the opponents face are going to give the 'crons their biggest threat. 3 quick questions;

what kind of AT do the new cron's have?
what does gauss weapons do now?
'crons have a wargear/upgrade/character (?) that allows them to start the game with nightfighting, and turn it off when they want, yes?

We don't have that much AT, Scarabs being the premier at it. Other than that, we have Heavy Gauss Cannons, a Walker with a Heavy 2 Multi Melta, Warscythes have 2D6 Pen, The Doomsday Ark can be sort of reliable. The Stormlords Lightning Strikes, and a few other things here and there.

Gauss weapons now Glance on a 6, same as before, but lost the ability to Auto-Wound.

There are two things that can do this, Solar Pulses, and the Stormlord.

Jihallah wrote:

Sasori wrote:

24' bubble. The Army has a lot of great shooting, but 90% of it is limited to the 24' bubble. This is a pretty big deal. We have some things to help mitigate this, but when things step into our killzone, we really need to kill it fast, or it's going maul us in CC.

So when the enemy steps out of your 24" kill zone, you need to kill it fast or its going to...instantly close the gap and assault you to death? If its trukk boyz or fiends they might

From what everyone's saying, the new 'crons can bring the most fire to bear at a 24" range, and have some tough CC units (S/T 5) who suffer on the low initiative. Seems to me that armies like SW or BA who like to get all up in the opponents face are going to give the 'crons their biggest threat. 3 quick questions;

what kind of AT do the new cron's have?
what does gauss weapons do now?
'crons have a wargear/upgrade/character (?) that allows them to start the game with nightfighting, and turn it off when they want, yes?

AT they have quite a few, Doomsday Arc, Doom Scythe, Stalker with RoF 2 MM, Scarabs, Heavy Destroyers and Command Barge sweep attack with Warscythe.
Gauss Glance on 6s still.
Storm Lord makes the game starts with Night Fighting, and can continue it so long as he rolls under the turn number. Solar Pulse can make it Night fighting for your opponent while removing Night Fighting for the Necrons.

1.) Triarch Stalker, Walker with a double Multi-Melta
Heavy Destroyers (Think a overpriced lascannon heavy weapon team)
Gauss (6 to hit causes an auto glance)
Doomsday Arc (If stationary, long range str 9 ap 1 large blast)
Doom Scythe (12" Range 3d6 inch line, Str 10 Ap 1 hits to stuff on line)
Tachyon Arrow (HQ only Str 10 Ap 1 One Shot Hunter Killer)
And CC (Anything with a Warscythe is a MC with S7, pretty much. And some stuff has entropic (armor decay))
3.)Imhotep, and kind of. It's auto on turn one, and every turn after that the necron player has to roll over turn number to keep it up. He can drop it freely though. Also, solar pulse can toggle night fight for one player turn

Yeah, not looking forward to the Doom Scythe - when I read the Codex that was the first thing to make me say "OMG I do NOT want to fight that!!!" That, and Tesseract Labyrinths.

24" Range on most of their weapons

Initiative 2

Lack of anti-vehicle weapons (Although I think this could be somewhat mitigated by throwing some scarabs into your FA slots.)

Expensive models. I wouldn't say they'll be as low on models as a GK army, but maybe closer to a BA or vanilla marines army.

The elites section is a bit of a misfire for me.

Rubbish - Flayed Ones & Triarch Praetorians

Nothing Special - Deathmarks

Ok - C'Tan Shards and Lychguard, Triarch Walker thing

I don't think scarabs are going to be the proper solution to the anti-tank weakness. They're just too slow, and with T3, too fragile. At least with turbo boost, you were pretty much guaranteed your turn 2 charge, but now . . .

Maybe Doom Scythes are the answer. They'll certainly clean up IG and SM parking lots

Irdiumstern wrote:I don't think scarabs are going to be the proper solution to the anti-tank weakness. They're just too slow, and with T3, too fragile. At least with turbo boost, you were pretty much guaranteed your turn 2 charge, but now . . .

Maybe Doom Scythes are the answer. They'll certainly clean up IG and SM parking lots

How are they too slow? They are beasts now. They have Fleet, and a 12' Assault range.

I think deathmarks may end up a surprising hit. Consider: They allow you to deep strike a lord with warscythe anywhere, or a Cryptek with an AP 1 flamer that now wounds on +2 against one squad. That could get pretty ugly.

I think the major weaknesses are spot on, I especially agree that even with all the fancy "not pariahs" and "not pariahs on jump packs" models that were released, CC is still gonna hurt. Although Wraiths will be useful with their lash whip like things.

Not the most reliable for big things I suppose but Crypteks with voltic staffs have assault 4 haywire guns for Anti tank. Not too shabby although it is 12" so you'll need to find some way fro them to get close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Irdiumstern wrote:I think deathmarks may end up a surprising hit. Consider: They allow you to deep strike a lord with warscythe anywhere, or a Cryptek with an AP 1 flamer that now wounds on +2 against one squad. That could get pretty ugly.

Wounds on a +2? You fighting something with LD6?

kenshin620 wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:I think deathmarks may end up a surprising hit. Consider: They allow you to deep strike a lord with warscythe anywhere, or a Cryptek with an AP 1 flamer that now wounds on +2 against one squad. That could get pretty ugly.

Wounds on a +2? You fighting something with LD6?

Deathmark's Hunters From Hyperspace allows them to wound on +2 any unit marked by a deathmark unit. Crypteks joined to a squad are members of the unit.
And that's consistent with the ruling in the Space Wolves codex about wolf guard, so I doubt it'll be different here.

Fragile I'll agree with you on, but slow? God no. 7-12" move, and a 12" charge? That's still a turn 2 or 3 charge for them, depending on how aggressive your opponent is.

And their entropic touch could turn a humble gauss flayer into a lethal anti-tank weapon. I mentioned this in another thread, but a 10, 10, 10 Land Raider ain't all that scary. That Raider zipping around at cruising speed? 9, 9, 9. Or 8, 8, 8. Suddenly strength 4 weapons are causing scores of penetrating hits.

Irdiumstern wrote:1.) Triarch Stalker, Walker with a double Multi-Melta
Heavy Destroyers (Think a overpriced lascannon heavy weapon team)
Gauss (6 to hit causes an auto glance)
Doomsday Arc (If stationary, long range str 9 ap 1 large blast)
Doom Scythe (12" Range 3d6 inch line, Str 10 Ap 1 hits to stuff on line)
Tachyon Arrow (HQ only Str 10 Ap 1 One Shot Hunter Killer)
And CC (Anything with a Warscythe is a MC with S7, pretty much. And some stuff has entropic (armor decay))

Doomsday arc bs3? or 4?

That's some interesting AT indeed!

Irdiumstern wrote:
Deathmark's Hunters From Hyperspace allows them to wound on +2 any unit marked by a deathmark unit. Crypteks joined to a squad are members of the unit.
And that's consistent with the ruling in the Space Wolves codex about wolf guard, so I doubt it'll be different here.

Hmm intriguing possibility. No doubt though people will bring this to YMDC though

Jihallah wrote:
Doomsday arc bs3? or 4?

That's some interesting AT indeed!

All their vehicles have BS 4

Doomsday Arc spam may seem like an interesting idea but then if you want to pop tanks, you'll have to sit still with those silly things

kenshin620 wrote:Doomsday Arc spam may seem like an interesting idea but then if you want to pop tanks, you'll have to sit still with those silly things

And that will make your doomsday arcs very vulnerable to CC.

My 4 raiders full of Wyches with haywire grenades knows you can't kill all of them before they get to grips with you. Especially if you try to divert some of that firepower to the ravagers in the backfield.

Irdiumstern wrote:I think deathmarks may end up a surprising hit. Consider: They allow you to deep strike a lord with warscythe anywhere, or a Cryptek with an AP 1 flamer that now wounds on +2 against one squad. That could get pretty ugly.

Agreed, Deathmarks are a good unit, but not so much so that they're broken. I can see them making their way into lists.

Lokas wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Doomsday Arc spam may seem like an interesting idea but then if you want to pop tanks, you'll have to sit still with those silly things

And that will make your doomsday arcs very vulnerable to CC.

My 4 raiders full of Wyches with haywire grenades knows you can't kill all of them before they get to grips with you. Especially if you try to divert some of that firepower to the ravagers in the backfield.

If you can survive getting pas the 24' bubble to the back and the Doomsday Arks, then you deserve to wreck them.

Of course it's somewhat of a rules question, but since they ruled with Space Wolves that models added to a unit like that count as full members, including for unit wide special rules makes me fairly certain it'll end up ruled this way. Otherwise, you couldn't really attach a leader to the Deathmarks anyway, since they then could not deepstrike.

I'll concede the scarab speed thing, I didn't think it through very well.

Another negative: The doomsday arc is not ordnance, so only one dice for armor pen. Then again, one of the named lords does give tank hunters to one unit a turn. . .

BA can cast fear the darkness and chase large squads off the board.

SW can use JOTWW to snipe expensive units/models.

GK can use warp rift to remove swathes of necrons.


I agree a scarab heavy list will eat razorback/ dreadnought heavy lists by making their armor weak enough for basic warriors to kill them.

kenshin620 wrote:

Jihallah wrote:
Doomsday arc bs3? or 4?

That's some interesting AT indeed!

All their vehicles have BS 4

Doomsday Arc spam may seem like an interesting idea but then if you want to pop tanks, you'll have to sit still with those silly things

But if its nightfighting for my opponent for the first two turns, I'm happy against alot of armies to sit there those turns when I have a good chance of not being assaulted, then scooting around...what can/does it fire when it moves?


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DarthDiggler wrote:
SW can use JOTWW to snipe expensive units/models.

I just put my daemons down to pick up my wolves again (sick of getting trounced, I need a broader selection of daemons ). When I saw the army wide I2 "jaws" popped into my head, before the first thing that popped into my head (which was also "jaws" )

It's not just any CC that will win out however. CC in the flavor of small elite units (talking MEQ armies here), will not fare too well.

The new 'cron codex has a LOT of special rules that cause wounds prior to the assault combat even taking place. For example, vanguard veterans should never be used against a 'cron player who has a Harbinger of the Storm Cryptek out. In fact, that single model completely invalidates heroic intervention. You're either forced to DS further than 6in away (to avoid the Ether Crystal attacks), and thus cannot make the assault move that turn, or you DS within 6" of the Cryptek's unit, bite the bullet on the Ether Crystal attacks, only to walk into the Lightning Field attacks when they assault. That's 2D6 S8 AP5 attacks before they even get to swing on the unit.

Now imagine that's on a unit of Lychguard with Hyperphase Swords and Dispersion Shields. That's a 3+/4++/5+++ unit that reflects shooting attacks that are ap3 or higher, cannot be deep struck near or charged without taking attacks, and is also an entire squad of S5 power weapons. All for 275 points. To get something similar with the Vanguard Vets you're looking at 325 points.

This trend is followed throughout the whole codex. The monolith portal just outright removing whole swaths of models that get within assault range of it. Several C'tan powers either punishing enemies for assaulting, or reducing the assault move range. The list goes on...

The solution to this is horde armies. Yes, tesla weapons are dangerous, but they are ALL AP-. You're better off with larger numbers, simple as that. Almost all of the Necron anti-assault defense is a lot less scary when you can afford to lose 3-4 models out of the squad before you get to swing.

I can see The Green Tide doing really well vs. 'crons, especially with the massive amount of hype surrounding Imotekh. Hell, 'crons can't even seize the initiative against Orks if Imotekh is being used.

Sasori wrote:

Lokas wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Doomsday Arc spam may seem like an interesting idea but then if you want to pop tanks, you'll have to sit still with those silly things

And that will make your doomsday arcs very vulnerable to CC.

My 4 raiders full of Wyches with haywire grenades knows you can't kill all of them before they get to grips with you. Especially if you try to divert some of that firepower to the ravagers in the backfield.

If you can survive getting pas the 24' bubble to the back and the Doomsday Arks, then you deserve to wreck them.

Doomsday arks can be even nastier than they look, as are the Triarch Stalkers (everyone who doesn't play Tau seems to be underestimating them).

For AT I've been considering the idea of a Triarch Staker with a twin linked heavy gauss cannon upgrade (36" range...not 24) in the front spotting for my Domsday Arks in the back.

How tasty does a twin-linked Doomsday Cannon shot sound?

The 'cron codex is very, very much based around unit synergies. Even more so than the eldar codex is IMO.

Yep... Don't play Tau but I fight them enough to know what's up.

I cannot wait to targeting relay a unit and fill it with Tesla carbine shots, or abuse the twin-link to ensure the ark can connect. There's also the wtf combo of marking a unit that's already tagged by deathmarks... 2+ with rerolls on a rapid fire sniper rifle? Yes please.

I think Lychguard with Swords & Shields is just fine for 40 points per model. At first glance the price seems steep for an i2 assault unit, but consider this:

They get a total of four RP rolls per game turn. Throw a rez orb in the squad and the only way they die is if you lose combat badly and get swept.

I see them as a nice tarpit unit that can grind down enemy hammer units in attrition, freeing up the rest of the army to shoot.

WanderingFox wrote:Yep... Don't play Tau but I fight them enough to know what's up.

I cannot wait to targeting relay a unit and fill it with Tesla carbine shots, or abuse the twin-link to ensure the ark can connect. There's also the wtf combo of marking a unit that's already tagged by deathmarks... 2+ with rerolls on a rapid fire sniper rifle? Yes please.

Tau really struggle with a robot horde. With only one S6 AP4 template on a 150 Barebones Hammerhead, they do not have the weight of fire to knock down a 20 model unit of Warriors or even a 10 model unit of Immortals. Couple that with War Scythes and Scarabs and that S10 AP 1 One-shot Arrow of Death, the Crisis Suits cannot cut them down fast enough.

You will not win with shooting unless its a massive amount of fire, say an IG gunline. CC will be their main weakness.


I laugh at all those IG players who squeak about Auto Cannons being better than Missiles. Yea... Go ahead and Pen those AV 13 Ghost Arks with your S7 weapon .

Griever wrote:I think Lychguard with Swords & Shields is just fine for 40 points per model. At first glance the price seems steep for an i2 assault unit, but consider this:

They get a total of four RP rolls per game turn. Throw a rez orb in the squad and the only way they die is if you lose combat badly and get swept.

I see them as a nice tarpit unit that can grind down enemy hammer units in attrition, freeing up the rest of the army to shoot.

Last line of RP rule states:

Once all Reanimation Protocols rolls have been made for a unit (passed or failed) remove all your counters from the unit

They would get one per dude, so only one roll. Unless you mean they die in the movement phase (now possible with DE and I believe necrons), once in shooting, and once in the assault... in which case they are allowed 3?

StormForged wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:Yep... Don't play Tau but I fight them enough to know what's up.

I cannot wait to targeting relay a unit and fill it with Tesla carbine shots, or abuse the twin-link to ensure the ark can connect. There's also the wtf combo of marking a unit that's already tagged by deathmarks... 2+ with rerolls on a rapid fire sniper rifle? Yes please.

Tau really struggle with a robot horde. With only one S6 AP4 template on a 150 Barebones Hammerhead, they do not have the weight of fire to knock down a 20 model unit of Warriors or even a 10 model unit of Immortals. Couple that with War Scythes and Scarabs and that S10 AP 1 One-shot Arrow of Death, the Crisis Suits cannot cut them down fast enough.

You will not win with shooting unless its a massive amount of fire, say an IG gunline. CC will be their main weakness.


I laugh at all those IG players who squeak about Auto Cannons being better than Missiles. Yea... Go ahead and Pen those AV 13 Ghost Arks with your S7 weapon .

I could see Tau start bringing more seeker Missiles (or I'm thinking about it) to try and up the rate of fire.

Seeker Missiles would be great for the AV 13 Vehicles and possibly Destroyers, but won't really make a dent in anything else.

So far from looking at more common builds that I can see comming *cough scarabs and storm lord immortals spam etc with night fighting powers*

bring search lights for range

fast attack choices may help alot actually with outflank and some other way to take out big threat units i.e. snipers

More flamer templates

Alternatively, you can try to out range the bulk of the necron army as well if you can somehow do a mobile gun line. Most of their guns seem to be best at 24'. HB and lascannons are 36-48' along with artillery.

I can see jaws killing some things but I can see the rune priest being killed early on. They become a high priority target and thus first on the death block.

StormForged wrote:Seeker Missiles would be great for the AV 13 Vehicles and possibly Destroyers, but won't really make a dent in anything else.

True, but it would help us pop some more tanks, let us focus the railguns on bigger and badder things.


And with more Night flghting, Tau need to look into adding Blacksun Filters into the army. Especially on our longer ranged Weapon Squads like Deathrains and the Hammerheads (maybe the Broadsides too if you can find the points) which really wouldn't be that hard for tanks.


An Example: On all of my Vehicles, I run Flechettes to deter CC. I could drop the Flechettes off of my Hammerheads and give all four of my Tanks (2 hammerheads and 2 Devilfish) Blacksun Filters, which would turn my Nightfighting range on the Hammerheads from 6-36 to 12-72. While my hammerheads would now have to worry about CC more than usual, it wouldn't be too big of a problem compared to not seeing the enemy since the Hammerhead should be moving 12 inches every turn anyways.

Kura wrote:

Griever wrote:I think Lychguard with Swords & Shields is just fine for 40 points per model. At first glance the price seems steep for an i2 assault unit, but consider this:

They get a total of four RP rolls per game turn. Throw a rez orb in the squad and the only way they die is if you lose combat badly and get swept.

I see them as a nice tarpit unit that can grind down enemy hammer units in attrition, freeing up the rest of the army to shoot.

Last line of RP rule states:

Once all Reanimation Protocols rolls have been made for a unit (passed or failed) remove all your counters from the unit

They would get one per dude, so only one roll. Unless you mean they die in the movement phase (now possible with DE and I believe necrons), once in shooting, and once in the assault... in which case they are allowed 3?

For starters, it costs 5 points to swap the Warscythes for Dispersion shields and Hyperphase swords.

and Kura, As long you continue to pass your RP, then it is possible to test it 3 times in a game turn.

It is unfortunately ambiguous. "once all reanimation protocol's have been made for a unit" (good or bad) "remove all counters from the unit." You roll at the end of a phase. Once you've finished rolling, at the end of that phase, that could quite easily be it.

Personally I doubt you get to roll that many times in either players turns (yours or theirs) as that would be unstoppable (do the math ) - I think it allows for necrons to "get back up" at all points during a game turn; whether it be from dangerous terrain tests, enemy shooting, either assault phase resolutions or "get's hot" rule. Not they have any amateur Plasma weaponry. (well their is a way a re-animation model could loose a wound in its own shooting phase, the reason in this very codex but I digress).

In fact, as it clearly doesn't mention anything about "at the end of a game/player turn, remove all counters from the unit" the only option could be you refresh at the start of every new phase. Otherwise, but the logic mentioned here, the pool would never refresh, as its being assumed that the rules state you remove your counters at the end of turn (which it clearly does not state). Ah good, problem solved

And with more Night flghting, Tau need to look into adding Blacksun Filters into the army. Especially on our longer ranged Weapon Squads like Deathrains and the Hammerheads (maybe the Broadsides too if you can find the points) which really wouldn't be that hard for tanks.

Deathrains are the twin linked missile pods right? My suggestion for Suit load-outs; Burst + Missile or Plasma + Burst. Get as many shots as possible at 18"...

Andilus Greatsword wrote:2. Almost non-existent psychic defense. All I saw were Canopek Spyders, and they only have a 3" bubble of protection, which is next to useless. I predict that psychic-reliant armies, like Grey Knights and Eldar, are going to have a lot of fun with the 'Crons.

I haven't yet read the rules, but does the 3" bubble affect entire units like the Blood Chalice? If so, a Newcron player could form several 'phalanxs' of ranged units directly beside the Spyder, hence only one or two models need to be within the bubble. A tight knit line of Spyders with Immortals, Deathmarks or other ranged units would be dangerous.

Deathly Angel wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:2. Almost non-existent psychic defense. All I saw were Canopek Spyders, and they only have a 3" bubble of protection, which is next to useless. I predict that psychic-reliant armies, like Grey Knights and Eldar, are going to have a lot of fun with the 'Crons.

I haven't yet read the rules, but does the 3" bubble affect entire units like the Blood Chalice? If so, a Newcron player could form several 'phalanxs' of ranged units directly beside the Spyder, hence only one or two models need to be within the bubble. A tight knit line of Spyders, Immortals, Deathmarks and any other shooting unit would be a great strategy.

Yes, but you are only getting that 4+ against Psychic powers that target you and some of the best powers in this game doesnt target your unit.
It's still a pretty great ability though.

StormForged wrote:

And with more Night flghting, Tau need to look into adding Blacksun Filters into the army. Especially on our longer ranged Weapon Squads like Deathrains and the Hammerheads (maybe the Broadsides too if you can find the points) which really wouldn't be that hard for tanks.

Deathrains are the twin linked missile pods right? My suggestion for Suit load-outs; Burst + Missile or Plasma + Burst. Get as many shots as possible at 18"...

I do agree on the Bladestorms(plasma+burst) but not the Firestorms( Burst Missile)

I still believe that tau need to take the Deathrains because they are great at what they do, Popping light tanks and transports

Firestorms, while cheap, miss out on one of the best things our Crisis Suits can bring to the field, The TEQ Killing, FNP bubble popping, Plasma Gun.

IMO the three squads of suits that will help weather the darkness (and it's always darkest before the Dawn!) until the Dawn of our New Codex are:

Deathrains for Light Tank popping

Bladestorms( Extra points for a Centurion Commander[shas'el with Cyclic Ion Blaster/Plasma Rifle/Targetting array, HW Multitracker} with the Squad) for Infantry popping

and FireKnives(Plasma/Missile) for "Jack of all trades" Support.

I may have to swap out my razor back heavy bolters for laz/plaz to blow up scarabs @_@

For further ranged anti tank options, wouldn't it be possible to cryptek spam? Upgrade them all to Harbinger of Destruction, and they automatically come with an Eldrich Lance. Seems like it might be a cheap way to add a 36" range, strength 8 shot to all of your units for some added utility.

Lokas wrote:Fragile I'll agree with you on, but slow? God no. 7-12" move, and a 12" charge? That's still a turn 2 or 3 charge for them, depending on how aggressive your opponent is.

And their entropic touch could turn a humble gauss flayer into a lethal anti-tank weapon. I mentioned this in another thread, but a 10, 10, 10 Land Raider ain't all that scary. That Raider zipping around at cruising speed? 9, 9, 9. Or 8, 8, 8. Suddenly strength 4 weapons are causing scores of penetrating hits.

They're Beasts so they'll have a 1-6" move 1-6" Run and a 2-12" assault. Terrain can mitigate any of these rolls , and if you want your scarabs to stay alive you'll have to take advantage of it.

Threads like these are tremendously interesting to me - in seeing how people perceive a codex's functionality prior to it hitting tables en mass.

I tend to enjoy comparing perceptions of codices several months (or years) after release, to "codex review" threads. It's often quite humorous

BUT, onwards!

A big hidden weakness for necrons, is the Ghost Ark, Command Barge, Annihilation Barge, and Doomsday Ark are all open-topped - so glances are only working on -1, instead of -2. Meaning you only need a 5 on the damage chart to destroy it if you glance. This means that Dark Eldar Haywire weapons will certainly worry necrons.

Necron's ability to destroy larger AV at long range is potentially tough. The Doomsday Ark is frightening, but one has to take into mind that it may scatter. The Doom Scythe with it's str10 AP1 is a great can opener, but it's range is random. It hits all units (one hit per model hit) in a line drawn within 12" of the Doom Scythe, anywhere randomly determined from 3" 18" further on.

Past that, Triach Stalkers and Heavy Destroyers can have Heavy Gauss Cannons, which are str9 ap2, and 34" range.

Everything else is in the 24" range bubble.

EDIT: Hold on, there's the Tachyon Arrow which IC's can equip. Infinite range, strength 10, AP1. Only one shot, however.

Oddly enough, horde lists are going to be a bit of a problem to many Necron lists.
This is really just logic in the end: Necrons have a lot of high-strength AP2 and power weapons, so armour saves won't defend you.
Vehicles are a no-go, the Doom Scythe is basically enough to single-handedly end the parking lot as an acceptable play style (couldn't they at least have made it not fire its "insta-penetrate 1-3 vehicles with AP1, no need to roll to hit" beam when it deep strikes? That too much to ask?).
Horde lists can take buckets of stuff and keep on ticking, they can take the doom scythe's hilariously powerful attack, they can take twin linked tesla destroyers.
So basically just field a crapton of models and make sure they can do something to AV11 and something to AV14 and you should be able to survive.

mynamelegend wrote:Oddly enough, horde lists are going to be a bit of a problem to many Necron lists.
This is really just logic in the end: Necrons have a lot of high-strength AP2 and power weapons, so armour saves won't defend you.
Vehicles are a no-go, the Doom Scythe is basically enough to single-handedly end the parking lot as an acceptable play style (couldn't they at least have made it not fire its "insta-penetrate 1-3 vehicles with AP1, no need to roll to hit" beam when it deep strikes? That too much to ask?).
Horde lists can take buckets of stuff and keep on ticking, they can take the doom scythe's hilariously powerful attack, they can take twin linked tesla destroyers.
So basically just field a crapton of models and make sure they can do something to AV11 and something to AV14 and you should be able to survive.

feels like we're on the edge of the rise of the orks! *not sure if foot guard can hack it since their CC is so weak and necrons can usually outshoot them*

The new necron codex really bends IG over a chair and does bad things to it. Foot guard doesn't really like T5 3++ save models all over the freaking place, and mech guard are sitting ducks against the Doom Scythe (may it burn).
Basically, if you're fielding guard against Necrons, you're going to have a very harsh uphill battle no matter what, assuming the foe's necron list is built even remotely competently.
Oh well, I guess we had a good few years.

Only against crons who can get the proper units to attack your back-field. If something goes wrong you'll barrage us into paste like you do everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other side of things, warrior spam will be a good defense for 'crons against horde armies like orks and 'nids. Triarch Stalker + warrior and immortal spam will do wonders to thin the horde.

Also, Trazyn the Infinite will single handedly de-horde your opponent for you (assuming you support him sufficiently).

And while we lost the ability to portal units out of melee, you can do something similar if you take Nemesor Zahndrekh and a C'tan shard. Get the shard into melee with the nasties, and use Zahndrekh to give him hit & run.

Then just pass your I test and proceed to blow the ork/nid unit off the board during your turn like you would with any hit & run unit.

You can do the same with Zahndrekh's bodyguard, only with less precision.

Foot-horde FNP Blood Angels is, for me, the primary necron weakness.

They don't have the combat punch or tonnes of S6/7/8/9/10 AP3/2/1 to actually beat these guys up, and the simple weakness of the 'dex is combat.

Some interesting notes regarding the Necron CC options. Beware, this post contains summaries of Mathammer

Going to compare a full squad of the three main melee options they have, versus a squad of 30 orks (with a nob, and his powerklaw), and a squad of terminators. The two infantry extremes, basically. All of these are assuming the necron player got the charge - which is quite important.

Against 30 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob (220pts)

6 Wraiths (210pts)
Combat ends after second assault phase - Orks win with 17 to 18 orks left, as well as the nob.

20 Flayed Ones (260pts)
Combat ends after second assault phase - Flayed Ones win, with about 6 models remaining.

10 Lychguard (400pts)
Surprisingly close, but very long winded.
Combat ends after 5th assault phase, Orks win, but with only the Nob remaining, and possibly a lone boy.


Against 10 Terminators (400pts)

6 Wraiths (210pts)
Combat ends after 4 assault phases - Terminators win, with half surviving.

20 Flayed Ones (260pts)
Another long winded one
Combat ends after 5 assault phases - Flayed Ones win, with 11 models remaining.

10 Lychguard (400pts)
Laughably one sided.
Combat ends after two assault phases - Lychguard win with only 2 casualties.

Reconstruction Protocals is a really nice boon cases where present, I must say.

Still, it's quite interesting to look at the results. Flayed Ones certainly have their use, in regards to the results compared to their point cost.

Made several mistakes in the calcs, as I'm still learning the new necron codex. Have done a revised version posted later on xP

did you add whips or beamers to the wraiths?

(I1 enemies in base contact)

And a Initiative or str check, i forget which, or die 6" assault 1 (No Saves) shooting attack for 15 points on wraiths .

Kharrak wrote:Some interesting notes regarding the Necron CC options. Beware, this post contains summaries of Mathammer

Going to compare a full squad of the three main melee options they have, versus a squad of 30 orks (with a nob, and his powerklaw), and a squad of terminators. The two infantry extremes, basically. All of these are assuming the necron player got the charge - which is quite important.

Against 30 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob (225pts)

20 Flayed Ones (260pts)
Combat ends after second assault phase - Flayed Ones win, with about 6 models remaining.

Against 10 Terminators (400pts)

20 Flayed Ones (260pts)
Another long winded one
Combat ends after 5 assault phases - Flayed Ones win, with 11 models remaining.

Reconstruction Protocals is a really nice boon cases where present, I must say.

Still, it's quite interesting to look at the results. Flayed Ones certainly have their use, in regards to the results compared to their point cost.

You make flayed ones not seem awful... Maybe I'll go buy.... 220 dollars for 20 models (before 13% tax)? Die in a fire GW.

Kharrak wrote:Threads like these are tremendously interesting to me - in seeing how people perceive a codex's functionality prior to it hitting tables en mass.

Well we're still going to be fighting Necrons between then and now, so this thread is sort of a primer for those of us who are hoping to fight Necrons in the coming weeks as the newbies settle into to their new Codex.

Tyrs13 wrote:did you add whips or beamers to the wraiths?

(I1 enemies in base contact)

And a Initiative or str check, i forget which, or die 6" assault 1 (No Saves) shooting attack for 15 points on wraiths .

Nope, just used vanilla variations of each. Wouldn't effect the result of the combat with the terminators, since they hit at I1 anyway, though it would definitely have a better time with coils = the fight would still end in Ork victory, but with only 9 boyz and a nob left, rather than 17 or 18 boyz.

Of course, this is all mathhammer, so it's all formula based averages. Your mileage may vary

Razerous wrote:It is unfortunately ambiguous. "once all reanimation protocol's have been made for a unit" (good or bad) "remove all counters from the unit." You roll at the end of a phase. Once you've finished rolling, at the end of that phase, that could quite easily be it.

Personally I doubt you get to roll that many times in either players turns (yours or theirs) as that would be unstoppable (do the math ) - I think it allows for necrons to "get back up" at all points during a game turn; whether it be from dangerous terrain tests, enemy shooting, either assault phase resolutions or "get's hot" rule. Not they have any amateur Plasma weaponry. (well their is a way a re-animation model could loose a wound in its own shooting phase, the reason in this very codex but I digress).

In fact, as it clearly doesn't mention anything about "at the end of a game/player turn, remove all counters from the unit" the only option could be you refresh at the start of every new phase. Otherwise, but the logic mentioned here, the pool would never refresh, as its being assumed that the rules state you remove your counters at the end of turn (which it clearly does not state). Ah good, problem solved

Not sure why there's confusion on this, personally. It seems pretty clear to me.

You lose 4 necrons in a phase. At the end of the phase, you roll for RP and 2 get back up. The reanimation protocol rolls have been made for the unit, so you remove the counters and the other 2 necrons are dead for good. If you lose 3 more necrons on a subsequent phase, roll for those 3 RP only, since the counters for the two that failed earlier have been removed.

mynamelegend wrote:The new necron codex really bends IG over a chair and does bad things to it. Foot guard doesn't really like T5 3++ save models all over the freaking place, and mech guard are sitting ducks against the Doom Scythe (may it burn).
Basically, if you're fielding guard against Necrons, you're going to have a very harsh uphill battle no matter what, assuming the foe's necron list is built even remotely competently.
Oh well, I guess we had a good few years.

Guard can still handle Necrons, its just that you can't really rely on your Melta/Vet spam (thank you Necrons!). You actually have to think about using the different Leman Russ Patterns or Manticore spam (which, in theory, should work really well). IG Gunlines now have to think outside of the 'AutoCannon Spam' box and invest in a couple squads of missiles or las cannons.

And Rough Riders as a counter charging unit would be phenominal in winning close combat.

Keep up the good work Necrons! Makin' people think outside the box already!

Kharrak wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:did you add whips or beamers to the wraiths?

(I1 enemies in base contact)

And a Initiative or str check, i forget which, or die 6" assault 1 (No Saves) shooting attack for 15 points on wraiths .

Nope, just used vanilla variations of each. Wouldn't effect the result of the combat with the terminators, since they hit at I1 anyway, though it would definitely have a better time with coils = the fight would still end in Ork victory, but with only 9 boyz and a nob left, rather than 17 or 18 boyz.

Of course, this is all mathhammer, so it's all formula based averages. Your mileage may vary

I don't understand your Math on the Wraith Combat.

Who is getting the charge off in this? in addition, in a mob of 30 Boyz, not all of them will be able to swing. I just don't see how the Boyz are winning this, unless you are giving them the charge, and directing every attack in the Mob against the wraiths. If you throw the whipcoils on them, the Boyz shouldn't even stand a chance.

Also,

A big hidden weakness for necrons, is the Ghost Ark, Command Barge, Annihilation Barge, and Doomsday Ark are all open-topped - so glances are only working on -1, instead of -2. Meaning you only need a 5 on the damage chart to destroy it if you glance

It takes a 6 on the glancing chart, not a 5 to destroy an Open topped Vehicle on a glance.

Sasori wrote:I don't understand your Math on the Wraith Combat.

Who is getting the charge off in this? in addition, in a mob of 30 Boyz, not all of them will be able to swing. I just don't see how the Boyz are winning this, unless you are giving them the charge, and directing every attack in the Mob against the wraiths. If you throw the whipcoils on them, the Boyz shouldn't even stand a chance.

Actually, that's something I forgot to point out - the calcs were assuming all the boys were able to get into combat and perform a perfect rap around, allowing them all to get attacks in. In the case of the whip coils, I drew up an illistration and deducted what I reasoned to be the most ideal situation for having as many possible orks in base to base contact with the wraiths, and seperated those calcs (not that it actually mattered, since I realized that casualties would be taken from the back, so the I1 Orks would be unnaffected). Regardless, it's certainly not a realistic interpretation of how wraiths will actually act on a table, which has directional charging, choke points, and a whole bunch of stuff which makes such "clean" assaults quite a rarity. I was more interested in general capability of the wraiths, though, in which I'm happy to put them against impossible numbers, just to see how they can perform. In the example, as I stated, I always assumed necrons had the charge. Ultimately, it's just the weight of Ork attacks (sluggas, in this case) that brings them down, in such a simulation. Naturally, such large mobs in actual play will have trouble consilidating neatly, so much less attacks will reach the Wraiths. That, however, I'll leave up for player experience!

If you do want to see the calcs, I don't really mind re-doing them for scrutiny. OCD and all

A big hidden weakness for necrons, is the Ghost Ark, Command Barge, Annihilation Barge, and Doomsday Ark are all open-topped - so glances are only working on -1, instead of -2. Meaning you only need a 5 on the damage chart to destroy it if you glance

It takes a 6 on the glancing chart, not a 5 to destroy an Open topped Vehicle on a glance.

I've been playtesting a few games with Necrons already. A few things that were initially highly appraised I think are a little weaker than expected, but overall this Codex definitely has the potential to compete. However, it is not unbeatable by any means. Armies that have the ability to deflect or stall Necron Scarabs will have a big advantage, as many Necron armies are largely reliant on these units for their anti-tank firepower.

IG and Tau armies have been using bubblewrap units for a long time and this becomes even more important against Necrons. Delaying the Scarab hit will be crucial-- if you can shield your vehicles from Scarabs, most armies should have a comparatively easy time with the 'Cron lists I've been seeing so far. That said there is more to Codex: Necrons than that, and I think we will soon be seeing some more varied lists that might require more tactical shifts to defeat.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Foot-horde FNP Blood Angels is, for me, the primary necron weakness.

They don't have the combat punch or tonnes of S6/7/8/9/10 AP3/2/1 to actually beat these guys up, and the simple weakness of the 'dex is combat.

Hah, I'll eagerly wait for a Necron army with my BA. The Crons simply do not have the abilities to prevent their advance and charge.

I think we'll see a lot of scarab spam to tackle with th AT problem... they're the only No-Brainer choie actually IMHO... cheap, very efficient and extremely quick (I think they suffer a lot only against Assault-canno equivalents)

punkow wrote:I think we'll see a lot of scarab spam to tackle with th AT problem... they're the only No-Brainer choie actually IMHO... cheap, very efficient and extremely quick (I think they suffer a lot only against Assault-canno equivalents)

Actually, Scarabs have a lot of weaknesses besides just assault cannons. Any Blast weapon with a strength above 5 will be brutal, since they will suffer from both Instant Death and Vulnerable to Blasts against such weapons. Scarabs are also rather poor in CC, especially against units with strong saves or FNP. Blood Angel armies and the like should have no trouble taking them out. A 6 man Blood Angel assault squad will actually win combat against 10 scarabs in CC, even if they don't bring a powerfist.

Further, Terminators and Assault Terminators will annihilate Scarabs. Even if 20 Scarabs charge 10 Terminators at once and somehow get everyone in contact, the Terminators will wipe the floor with them (100 attacks, 50 hits, 16 wounds, about 2 terminators die, 16 counterattacks, 8 hits, Scarabs lose 6-7 bases to Instant Death, lose combat by 16+, both units lose another 3 bases to No Retreat! and the Scarabs get finished off next round). Scarabs are great, but they aren't the be-all end-all.

Hey kharrak, can you redo your calculations vs. the terminator squad with RoC-packing triarch praetorians?

If my calculations are correct a squad of 10 triarch praetorians will wipe a 10-strong termie squad with power fists out during your opponent's turn after losing 1 model or so.

I'm really starting to think that praetorians aren't as bad as people think if you pick their targets correctly...

edit: I know my math is off. I didn't take the sergeant's power sword into account. I have no idea how much it's going to change, but it will change something. I'm guessing the praetorians will end up about as well off as the lych guard.
edit2: Yeah...minor adjustment tops. They lose 2 models instead of 1 because of the sergeant going on initiative.

RabbiPT wrote:

Razerous wrote:It is unfortunately ambiguous. "once all reanimation protocol's have been made for a unit" (good or bad) "remove all counters from the unit." You roll at the end of a phase. Once you've finished rolling, at the end of that phase, that could quite easily be it.

Personally I doubt you get to roll that many times in either players turns (yours or theirs) as that would be unstoppable (do the math ) - I think it allows for necrons to "get back up" at all points during a game turn; whether it be from dangerous terrain tests, enemy shooting, either assault phase resolutions or "get's hot" rule. Not they have any amateur Plasma weaponry. (well their is a way a re-animation model could loose a wound in its own shooting phase, the reason in this very codex but I digress).

In fact, as it clearly doesn't mention anything about "at the end of a game/player turn, remove all counters from the unit" the only option could be you refresh at the start of every new phase. Otherwise, but the logic mentioned here, the pool would never refresh, as its being assumed that the rules state you remove your counters at the end of turn (which it clearly does not state). Ah good, problem solved

Not sure why there's confusion on this, personally. It seems pretty clear to me.

You lose 4 necrons in a phase. At the end of the phase, you roll for RP and 2 get back up. The reanimation protocol rolls have been made for the unit, so you remove the counters and the other 2 necrons are dead for good. If you lose 3 more necrons on a subsequent phase, roll for those 3 RP only, since the counters for the two that failed earlier have been removed.

QFT - I agree completely. I think it was suggested that you get to keep your RP counters over multiple phases, remvoing them at the end of turn.

I don't see CC as a profound weakness as I think it will be hard to put wounds on T4 WS4 models, without power weapons or rending. Combine that with LD10 and you will have to beat necrons by 3+ to stand a decent chance of making a sweeping advance. Granted, some units will butcher their way through necrons but they'd generally butcher their way through most things.

I see long-ranged AT as being a profound weakness. Shooting infantry, you have options. Shooting tanks within 24", you have options. Past that, it gets muddy. Its going to require some serious use of mitigating tactics

Arandmoor wrote:Hey kharrak, can you redo your calculations vs. the terminator squad with RoC-packing triarch praetorians?

If my calculations are correct a squad of 10 triarch praetorians will wipe a 10-strong termie squad with power fists out during your opponent's turn after losing 1 model or so.

I'm really starting to think that praetorians aren't as bad as people think if you pick their targets correctly...

edit: I know my math is off. I didn't take the sergeant's power sword into account. I have no idea how much it's going to change, but it will change something. I'm guessing the praetorians will end up about as well off as the lych guard.
edit2: Yeah...minor adjustment tops. They lose 2 models instead of 1 because of the sergeant going on initiative.

The problem is that you don't need to worry about normal Terminators-- you need to worry about Assault Terminators, who-- with either TH/SS or dual lightning claws-- pose a much greater threat to the Necron assault units.

Uhmm yes scarabs have several weaknesses... surely they will not be a Deathstar choice... I was just thinking that with a 19"-24" charge range, only 15 points per base and the IMHO incredibly OTT rules for entropic strike, they are an obvious choice for Anti tank... That doesn't mean they're totally OP, simply they are a no-brainer ...

I wouldn't say that. Scarabs compete with many extremely good units themselves. While I suspect that taking a unit or two of Scarabs will be part of the Necron core, thanks to their strong synergies with other elements of the Codex, there are many other strong units in the Fast Attack slot-- such as the Wraiths-- that definitely have their merits as well.

Codex: Necrons is surprisingly internally balanced. There are very few units that strike me as truly bad, and the army feels very "fluffy." Aside from the general weakness of the Elites slot, I feel that this Codex is one of the most interesting GW releases to date.

Berserkers on the charge... full of win!

Fetterkey wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:Hey kharrak, can you redo your calculations vs. the terminator squad with RoC-packing triarch praetorians?

If my calculations are correct a squad of 10 triarch praetorians will wipe a 10-strong termie squad with power fists out during your opponent's turn after losing 1 model or so.

I'm really starting to think that praetorians aren't as bad as people think if you pick their targets correctly...

edit: I know my math is off. I didn't take the sergeant's power sword into account. I have no idea how much it's going to change, but it will change something. I'm guessing the praetorians will end up about as well off as the lych guard.
edit2: Yeah...minor adjustment tops. They lose 2 models instead of 1 because of the sergeant going on initiative.

The problem is that you don't need to worry about normal Terminators-- you need to worry about Assault Terminators, who-- with either TH/SS or dual lightning claws-- pose a much greater threat to the Necron assault units.

Like I said.

Arandmoor wrote:if you pick their targets correctly...

The only way I'm taking anything necron-cc up against assault termies is if I've got a squad of whip coil wraiths to pile in with as well and restrict the number of possible return attacks.

And I'm going to shoot them first where and when possible, so I won't be assaulting a full unit to begin with. This truth is so basic, I'm not even going to bother mathing it out. If I have to assault a full squad of assault termies, something has gone horribly, horribly wrong up to this point and I'm probably losing anyway.

But very few people actually take units of Tactical Terminators, at least outside of Codex: Black Templars. I think that comparison is overly favorable to the Necrons. IMO Praetorians are not a justifiable unit, sadly-- they cost 40 ppm and don't bring enough kill to the table to justify that expense.

Fetterkey wrote:But very few people actually take units of Tactical Terminators, at least outside of Codex: Black Templars. I think that comparison is overly favorable to the Necrons. IMO Praetorians are not a justifiable unit, sadly-- they cost 40 ppm and don't bring enough kill to the table to justify that expense.

I think they bring plenty of kill to the table.

First off, they're jump infantry. Everyone who's in love with Lych Guard should be salivating over the Triarch Praetorians because of their vastly superior mobility. I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.

When I look at it I don't see A1 and 6" shooting. I see an A3-on-the-assault unit with an "I'm better than a banshee's mask" rules hack for one attack per model on the assault that pairs up absurdly well with a small squad of whip coil equipped wraiths and a destroyer lord packing a rez orb. Additionally, they can swap the rules hackery for a standard S6 pistol/power weapon combo for free.

And they're still S/T 5 with 3+ saves. D-lord will raise their RP to a 4+ and he's got the T and W to suck up a LOT of return attacks without going down.

IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

Arandmoor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:But very few people actually take units of Tactical Terminators, at least outside of Codex: Black Templars. I think that comparison is overly favorable to the Necrons. IMO Praetorians are not a justifiable unit, sadly-- they cost 40 ppm and don't bring enough kill to the table to justify that expense.

I think they bring plenty of kill to the table.

First off, they're jump infantry. Everyone who's in love with Lych Guard should be salivating over the Triarch Praetorians because of their vastly superior mobility. I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.

When I look at it I don't see A1 and 6" shooting. I see an A3-on-the-assault unit with an "I'm better than a banshee's mask" rules hack for one attack per model on the assault that pairs up absurdly well with a small squad of whip coil equipped wraiths and a destroyer lord packing a rez orb. Additionally, they can swap the rules hackery for a standard S6 pistol/power weapon combo for free.

And they're still S/T 5 with 3+ saves. D-lord will raise their RP to a 4+ and he's got the T and W to suck up a LOT of return attacks without going down.

IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

All I see when I look at them is "40pts each".

Yeah I'm not too impressed with the praetorians either. I'd rather have the Lychguard IMO. They appear to have a bit more killing power for the price.

Arandmoor wrote: I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.


IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

I dont see it

I mean if they had A2 and maybe 35 points or so, they're be somewhat usable but I dont know. I'd rather fill up on a bunch of wraiths or something if I want to kill something in CC.

ALTHOUGH on the bright side of life

Praetorians/Lychs+Spare Deathmark heads from immortals=Plastic Necron Court kit

kenshin620 wrote:

Praetorians/Lychs+Spare Deathmark heads from immortals=Plastic Necron Court kit

I was thinking the same thing. But aren't the Lych bodies a bit too beefy for Crypteks? I guess you could use Deathmark bodies + Heads + Rods of the Covenant, but...will the arms match? They appear to be the same thickness of warrior arms, so that's ok I guess.

I wouldn't say that. Scarabs compete with many extremely good units themselves. While I suspect that taking a unit or two of Scarabs will be part of the Necron core, thanks to their strong synergies with other elements of the Codex, there are many other strong units in the Fast Attack slot-- such as the Wraiths-- that definitely have their merits as well.

Codex: Necrons is surprisingly internally balanced. There are very few units that strike me as truly bad, and the army feels very "fluffy." Aside from the general weakness of the Elites slot, I feel that this Codex is one of the most interesting GW releases to date.

Well actually you're right.... there are other nice choices in the FA FOC slots.... but as you have said, scarabs seems to play a crucial role in providing AT. But actually I am not bringing my experience, just ideas from my reading of the dex... I'll have a 2000 points game on wednesday against a very diversified cron army... I will tell you if scarabs are an obliged choice or not!
Bout Praetorians I think that only a Destroyer lord inside a very large unit can make em enough survivable to make the dirty job... but that's going to cost you 500+ points...for an assault dedicated unit... in a shooty army... Remember that they're on foot so a 5 man squad will be easily destroybale by shooting in 1 turn, denying em the Protocols (consider that being jump infantry often cause a bad use of cover if you want to use the speed you paid for)
Cheers!

Sorry if this has been covered, I don't really have the time to look through the whole thread and any others at the moment.

Lychguard, now while I haven't looked at the codex in any detail yet. Just seem to be a waste of points. An assault unit with I2? At 40 points a model? Now if they were 20, might be worth it as some will survive to do some damage, but at 200 points for 5 I don't see how they can every be worth their points... Which is a huge shame as they are my favourite Necron models.

rodgers37 wrote:Sorry if this has been covered, I don't really have the time to look through the whole thread and any others at the moment.

Lychguard, now while I haven't looked at the codex in any detail yet. Just seem to be a waste of points. An assault unit with I2? At 40 points a model? Now if they were 20, might be worth it as some will survive to do some damage, but at 200 points for 5 I don't see how they can every be worth their points... Which is a huge shame as they are my favourite Necron models.

They are T5 S5 with 2 attacks and a 3+ save. They get a power weapon that increases their S by 2 and give 2d6 AP for free.

For an additional 5 points, they get a 4++ save, a normal PW.

And they still get RP.

40points is worth it.

kenshin620 wrote:

Arandmoor wrote: I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.


IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

I dont see it

I mean if they had A2 and maybe 35 points or so, they're be somewhat usable but I dont know. I'd rather fill up on a bunch of wraiths or something if I want to kill something in CC.

A2 and 35 points? For BS4/WS4 S5/T5 jump infantry with a 3+ armor save and squad-wide power weapons in a shooty army? (who have AP2 guns, or A2 and S6 AP- guns)

What the hell are you smoking to think that 35 ppm would be even remotely fair in the context of the rest of the army? I really want to know.

For a squad that can mulch pretty much anything short of an equal-size squad of assault terminators (or 'nid MCs/Wytches) in 1-2 turns no less...

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

Arandmoor wrote: I keep seeing people scoff at their A1 and 6" shooting.


IMO, necrons have some of the best jump infantry in the galaxy.

I dont see it

I mean if they had A2 and maybe 35 points or so, they're be somewhat usable but I dont know. I'd rather fill up on a bunch of wraiths or something if I want to kill something in CC.

A2 and 35 points? For BS4/WS4 S5/T5 jump infantry with a 3+ armor save and squad-wide power weapons in a shooty army? (who have AP2 guns, or A2 and S6 AP5 guns)

What the hell are you smoking to think that 35 ppm would be even remotely fair in the context of the rest of the army? I really want to know.

For a squad that can mulch pretty much anything short of an equal-size squad of assault terminators (or 'nid MCs/Wytches) in 1-2 turns no less...

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Fix'd

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I would still be interested to see what the Beamers on Wraiths would do to Termies before the assault, Specifically Th/Sh.

I mean 6 shots at bs 4= 4 hits ... and 1-2 termies should drop from failed checks. (4+ fails). And no saves of any kind.
Then a charge ... i mean if they bring 5 Termies and you kill at least 1-2 before you assault is it enough?

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Got two games in today, both against same guy - Tyranids first, then Space Marines. Lost first one, second one was closer, but I was still losing, but not badly - I might have still pulled something off toward the end if we hadn't had to call it. Didn't help that those were my first two games.

Thoughts:

Warriors. They sit there, and shoot, and rez themselves, and shoot, and rez themselves... barring bad luck rolls on RP or Morale checks, they'll sit there and keep shooting until they finally get CC'd.
Same thing more or less for Immortals, only with better saves. If you play in a Mech heavy meta, you're better off with Gauss for glances in 6. Otherwise, take the Tesla.
I2 does indeed hurt them in CC. Especially when it happens to be Warriors in CC with Hormagaunts.
However, having a Monolith right behind said Warriors, puttering up, and sucking up half the unit of Hormagaunts via Portal of Exile - hilarious. Monolith by itself can put out a fairly respectable amount of damage with its' fire as well.
Tachyon arrows can, unfortunately, miss, making you very sad.
Scarabs eat vehicles. They ate the armor off of a Hive Tyrant in the first game, and ate a Drop Pod and a tank (not sure which type) the next. They've got a surprisingly large assault range.
Warscythes kill tanks. I had Anrakyr on a Command Barge fly right over a Dreadnought and explode it. I had a Necron Lord assault a Landraider and explode it.

...Pretty much every penetration roll I had was 'explodes', in case you're wondering.

Anrakyr's ability, while fun, didn't get to do much for me - I kept rolling 1s and 2s.

Lychguard... live, but only up to a certain point - even with Dispersion Shields. The second game they essentially protected the Necron Lord from Terminators so he got into Assault range of the Land Raider.
Having an Ever-Living HQ - amusing. Anrakyr came back. Twice. They blew up his command barge, so he'd walk forward, assault some marines, kill a few in melee, die, come back from Ever-Living, rinse, repeat. He kept moving toward the tanks. The tanks kept moving away from him.

Correct me if I'm wrong... it is possible to have a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade Deepstriking in with Deathmarks. Relentless Deathmarks Deepstriking in from reserves during your own turn (if you are feeling ballsy) right next to an enemy unit during movement phase may then unload 20 Rapid Fire sniper shots at the unit you drop by, wounding on twos.

If so, going to need to try that next time...

Pretty cool games you got. Love it when vehicles explode!

Ruan wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong... it is possible to have a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade Deepstriking in with Deathmarks. Relentless Deathmarks Deepstriking in from reserves during your own turn (if you are feeling ballsy) right next to an enemy unit during movement phase may then unload 20 Rapid Fire sniper shots at the unit you drop by, wounding on twos.

Sadly all rules point that if an attached IC/part of a unit cannot deepstrike, then the unit cannot deepstrike

kenshin620 wrote:Pretty cool games you got. Love it when vehicles explode!

Ruan wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong... it is possible to have a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade Deepstriking in with Deathmarks. Relentless Deathmarks Deepstriking in from reserves during your own turn (if you are feeling ballsy) right next to an enemy unit during movement phase may then unload 20 Rapid Fire sniper shots at the unit you drop by, wounding on twos.

Sadly all rules point that if an attached IC/part of a unit cannot deepstrike, then the unit cannot deepstrike

I think the only way it could be done is if you attached the lord and a cryptek with a veil to the deathmarks. You couldn't deepstrike out of reserve like this, but you could start the unit on the board and use the veil deepstrike.

I like the book a lot and as a veteran player, the only massive hole I can see in Necrons is CC.

They are very well equipped to deal with anything else.

Saying that though, the Necron Lychguard are really scary, even though they are a lot of points.

I have been reading and reading the codex for two days now and I'm still shaking my head. I have also built a few lists and find myself floored on how elite and points heavy this army is along with how fragile it seems to be. Is there a chance that this codex is made to fit heavily into 6th ed and that is why I'm having issue with this book and finding an all comers competitive aspect. Don't get me wrong I love the ideas of the synergies that have been setup but the point costs are not up to par with 5th ed armies imo. This book feels like a weaker version of DE with poor/gimmicky AT. Normally I have no issue reading a new codex and building a list I feel comfortable with and to find out that it is close to what people are posting online a few months later. I'm just not grasping how they fit to counter or contend with the late 5th ed meta.

Balor wrote:I have been reading and reading the codex for two days now and I'm still shaking my head. I have also built a few lists and find myself floored on how elite and points heavy this army is along with how fragile it seems to be. Is there a chance that this codex is made to fit heavily into 6th ed and that is why I'm having issue with this book and finding an all comers competitive aspect. Don't get me wrong I love the ideas of the synergies that have been setup but the point costs are not up to par with 5th ed armies imo. This book feels like a weaker version of DE with poor/gimmicky AT. Normally I have no issue reading a new codex and building a list I feel comfortable with and to find out that it is close to what people are posting online a few months later. I'm just not grasping how they fit to counter or contend with the late 5th ed meta.

It could be that...or you are just bad at writing lists.
What are you using?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Balor wrote:I have been reading and reading the codex for two days now and I'm still shaking my head. I have also built a few lists and find myself floored on how elite and points heavy this army is along with how fragile it seems to be. Is there a chance that this codex is made to fit heavily into 6th ed and that is why I'm having issue with this book and finding an all comers competitive aspect. Don't get me wrong I love the ideas of the synergies that have been setup but the point costs are not up to par with 5th ed armies imo. This book feels like a weaker version of DE with poor/gimmicky AT. Normally I have no issue reading a new codex and building a list I feel comfortable with and to find out that it is close to what people are posting online a few months later. I'm just not grasping how they fit to counter or contend with the late 5th ed meta.

It could be that...or you are just bad at writing lists.
What are you using?

hahaha Funny guy. I have been using excel but I did good in Ard boys for the last three years so I seem to be doing something right. But this is a very different beast than Orks or BT or even the old Necron codex.

hahaha Funny guy. I have been using excel but I did good in Ard boys for the last three years so I seem to be doing something right. But this is a very different beast than Orks or BT or even the old Necron codex.

The game isn't really made for 2500 so I am not surprised that you are finding things a bit unbalanced. Even then, what is your main issue with AV 13 spam? Even 3 units of Long Fangs or 3 Psyfleman are going to average 1-2 pens a turn. That isn't enough to stop 9+ AV 13 vehicles with massive firepower.

This is more of a mini-rant compared to my usual post, I know I should see this thread as Necron Weaknesses but for some odd reason I see it as Necron Complaints. I dont want to say much because I havent doved into the book like I want to but, I see alot of potential and the book is good but I dont think people will put in the time and effort that it will take to become a good necron player, especially when the one main weakness is obvious.

Ranting Starts!

Look on page 3 Mat Ward will tell you that they suck in melee so if you want an army that is ok-good in every phase its called Marines. How do you complain about cc when necrons never had it? So what is there to miss?

People are underestimating quantom shield, in a nerdy voice like my own "If they pen you than the bonus is gone!", well let me tell you a secret if they pen your open top vehicle than not only will the bonus be gone but theres a 50% chance the vehicle is gone aswell, so when I lose the shield I will consider myself lucky because that means the vehicle is still alive.

Ranting Ends

I have a question would I be considered a troll if I try to counter certain comments?

No, counter away.

I am a noob when it comes to the rules of tabletop, I mostly have stuck to reading 40K, etc.

But, what about Hyperlogical Strategy from Imotekh the Stormlord, where an army that includes him seizes the initiative on a roll of 4+. Does that mean when you start a CC battle you have a 50/50 chance of getting first hit? Or is that for something else entirely that I am missing. Honest question.

People will still probably call you a troll regardless for doing so... but then again, such is the internet. Obviously, if you do not agree, you must be a troll. But so long as you have reasoned out arguments that actually make sense, you'll never hear it from me.

I do agree with the bit on Quantum Shielding. Considering it -does- require a penetrating hit to force it to go away, if I still have a vehicle afterward I essentially count myself lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krilk wrote:I am a noob when it comes to the rules of tabletop, I mostly have stuck to reading 40K, etc.

But, what about Hyperlogical Strategy from Imotekh the Stormlord, where an army that includes him seizes the initiative on a roll of 4+. Does that mean when you start a CC battle you have a 50/50 chance of getting first hit? Or is that for something else entirely that I am missing. Honest question.

Nice though that would be...

Well, really. Still a nice ability.

At the beginning of the game, if your opponent is going to go first, and you do not want him to, you may attempt to 'sieze the initiative'. Normally that requires a roll of a 6. That rule makes it a 4+.

Potentially important to get that those first, winnowing down shots into your opponent.

Ruan wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krilk wrote:I am a noob when it comes to the rules of tabletop, I mostly have stuck to reading 40K, etc.

But, what about Hyperlogical Strategy from Imotekh the Stormlord, where an army that includes him seizes the initiative on a roll of 4+. Does that mean when you start a CC battle you have a 50/50 chance of getting first hit? Or is that for something else entirely that I am missing. Honest question.

Nice though that would be...

Well, really. Still a nice ability.

At the beginning of the game, if your opponent is going to go first, and you do not want him to, you may attempt to 'sieze the initiative'. Normally that requires a roll of a 6. That rule makes it a 4+.

Potentially important to get that those first, winnowing down shots into your opponent.

More importantly, it means that you get to react to how your opponent sets up, and then get to shoot at them.

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

However, you're pouring a fair amount of points into those 2 units (200 for a minimal Praetorian squad, and 135 for 3 Wraiths with Particle Whips). The Praetorians really rely on the Wraiths to be effective, and if the Wraiths get tied up or wiped out then the Praetorians will suffer. Really, there's just a lot of ways in which the perfect-world synergy of Wraiths + Praetorians can go wrong. Although if you can pull it off then I'm sure it would be epic.

ghost ark drives up.

18 guass flayer shots

9 hits,

1 1/2 glances

Cryptek staff of str 8

ghost arks side thingys


Seems like not having a couple amazing anti tank units is not a big deal. EVERYTHING in the list is potentially dangerous to Armor.

Scarabs
Guass cannons
Walker
Warscythes turning crons into MC
and then lets not forget... Mono's win most amor vs armor wars...

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

However, you're pouring a fair amount of points into those 2 units (200 for a minimal Praetorian squad, and 135 for 3 Wraiths with Particle Whips). The Praetorians really rely on the Wraiths to be effective, and if the Wraiths get tied up or wiped out then the Praetorians will suffer. Really, there's just a lot of ways in which the perfect-world synergy of Wraiths + Praetorians can go wrong. Although if you can pull it off then I'm sure it would be epic.

Wraiths with Particle whips? Now that's something.

King Pariah wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

punkow wrote:

People keep ignoring the Jump Infantry designation. How can you not admit that it's a huge factor?

Well... IMHO because it is not a so huge factor... how do you use the praetorians? as lone assault unit? well... they're going to be shredde to pieces before reaching enemy line... As a counter-charge unit? well I think the lychguard perform that role much better... If the codex was filled with amazing fast-moving assault capable units, praetorian could perform a decent role... but crons are a shooty army so they're going to be alone in the assault...

I agree, especially with I2. Even orks and guardsmen can get some chances to poke at them. If they're going to be used in conjunction with wraiths, mind as well get more wraiths

Wraiths don't get power weapons. And no, rending will NOT make up for the lack of power weapons. It didn't in the last codex, and it won't in this one. Wraith wings were effective because you threw so many wounds they couldn't save them all. Praetorians deny them the save in the first place and avoid the whole "oh crap, they made all their saves. now what?" situations wraith wings ran into. And yes I feel the synergy between these two units is incredibly important. The wraiths will keep all the enemy models from going before the praetorians, and the praetorians kill models dead reliably.

And yes, I would absolutely use the praetorians as a mobile target, up in front of everything else if it was the best way to use them that game. If they would best serve as a counter-assault unit, then they would get used that way. Part of their power is in how flexible their movement makes them compared to the lych guard, who can only be used defensively or with a night scythe (which makes them an extremely obvious target).

Praetorians will be as dangerous as jump troops in other armies. No less (barring hordes...mc's...etc). And in some cases, far more.

However, you're pouring a fair amount of points into those 2 units (200 for a minimal Praetorian squad, and 135 for 3 Wraiths with Particle Whips). The Praetorians really rely on the Wraiths to be effective, and if the Wraiths get tied up or wiped out then the Praetorians will suffer. Really, there's just a lot of ways in which the perfect-world synergy of Wraiths + Praetorians can go wrong. Although if you can pull it off then I'm sure it would be epic.

Wraiths with Particle whips? Now that's something.

I give my wraiths Lashes of submission

A few of the things I have noticed in playing against the crons, as tau.

1) The fact that their basic troops only have a 4+ armor and WBB means that the basic Fireknives configs on suits can pop whole squads and negate WBB.

2) Broadsides make short work of av13/14 vehicles, and because of the open-topped vehicles of necrons a 3+ is all that's required to wreck/explode a vehicle.

Surmise: Tau should be fine, with the exception of possibly taking BSZ on a few high power models.

Adderfist wrote:A few of the things I have noticed in playing against the crons, as tau.

You can't negate Reanimation Protocol.

Sure you can-- by killing the whole squad, which is what he was referring to.

I played a 1750 pt game with my Necrons against Lash CSM tonight. One thing I'll say is the Overlord/Command Barge combo is probably the most reliably hard-hitting combination in the Codex. If you see these while playing Necrons, I'd say focus on taking these out before they start Sweep Attacking/assaulting your vehicles left and right. I'm using two Barges, one with Anrakyr, one with a Warscythe/Weave/Shifter/Tachyon Overlord..together they're over 500 points, but they can take and give a lot of damage--decidedly more than a Monolith.

Speaking of Monoliths: keep them at arm's reach and they won't be too big a threat. Prioritize the easy kills first...even 2-3 Monoliths can't put out much damage unsupported.

Sorry, I have this image of Necrons being a footslogging army. This new mech scene doesn't look terribly strong and I'm having a hard time assuming it is the norm. However my point still stands: at 24" it would take 558 points worth of Fireknives (Plas/Mis, right?) to kill 130 points of Warriors standing out of cover. If the squad has cover, than even the maximum amount of Fireknives in Rapid Fire range would inflict 7.47 wounds. 2 of them get back up, and the Ghost Ark should add another 2 to the squad. 558 points to kill 39.

to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

you can also take the crypteks with the 24" range assault 4 haywire grenades....gotta love that!

tachyon arrows in a unit with a chronmeter so it can reroll! golden!

Theorius wrote:to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

You can only take one type of each Cryptek per Royal Court. So max 2 Harbingers of Destruction, and you'll need to buy two Overlords to get them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I might be mistaken there. The wording is you can take any number of one kind of Cryptek, but their "unique wargear options" can only be chosen once per Court. Since the Eldritch Lance comes default on all Harbingers of Destruction, I have to assume you can take multiple Crypteks each with a Lance. That...is...pretty awesome.

whigwam wrote:

Theorius wrote:to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

You can only take one type of each Cryptek per Royal Court. So max 2 Harbingers of Destruction, and you'll need to buy two Overlords to get them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I might be mistaken there. The wording is you can take any number of one kind of Cryptek, but their "unique wargear options" can only be chosen once per Court. Since the Eldritch Lance comes default on all Harbingers of Destruction, I have to assume you can take multiple Crypteks each with a Lance. That...is...pretty awesome.

edit: you fixed your error.

and you are right it IS preatty awesome! the other thing is then you can hide 2 cryteks per squad like i said which is super awesome giving them a nice buffer of wounds and letting you split more shots vs having them all in 2 units with shoot me please signs on them.

Theorius wrote:

whigwam wrote:

Theorius wrote:to reiterate something another guy said on page 2....NECRONS HAVE Anti tank at range!

take 10 crypteks with Harbinger of destruction for 35 pts and you get 36" str 8 ap 2 assault 1 bas asses. Whats more you can 2 of them per warrior/immortal/lych guard unit to hide them in some abalative wounds. (5 per royal court and each royal court can add a dude to thos eunit types)

You can only take one type of each Cryptek per Royal Court. So max 2 Harbingers of Destruction, and you'll need to buy two Overlords to get them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I might be mistaken there. The wording is you can take any number of one kind of Cryptek, but their "unique wargear options" can only be chosen once per Court. Since the Eldritch Lance comes default on all Harbingers of Destruction, I have to assume you can take multiple Crypteks each with a Lance. That...is...pretty awesome.

edit: you fixed your error.

and you are right it IS preatty awesome! the other thing is then you can hide 2 cryteks per squad like i said which is super awesome giving them a nice buffer of wounds and letting you split more shots vs having them all in 2 units with shoot me please signs on them.

Think I'll be taking 8 Lance Crypteks my next game! Can't believe I overlooked that.. As for the other two, I'm liking hiding Transmog. Crypteks with Gauss Immortals. Hit incoming assault/Melta units with Tremorstave/Seismic Crucible to keep them out of assault range, then gun 'em down with rapid fire S5/AP4. Or, if they do assault, you've got initiative since they're moving through Difficult Terrain (and if you've got Anrakyr, one unit of Immortals get counter-attack..not so bad CC for Necrons!). I'm using one or two of these units to protect Monoliths and set enemy units up for a Particle Whip or Gate.

Well, this is embarrassing.

I've realized that my calcs from before are actually quite flawed - I'm still learning the new necron 'dex, so I missed out a few things in regards to toughness and wounds (did not realize Wraiths had 2 wounds!). Going to do post the revized set, hopefully these are more accurate xP

I'll also include Preatorians, as per request from Arandmoor.

Again, this is only formula-based averages, and I'm using them just for interests sake - your mileage may vary :p

"Stalemate" situations are combats that go on for five or more combat phases.

*Assuming Necrons always get the charge, and assault is done in such a way that all models are able to contribute to the combat*

6 Wraiths (210)pts

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
Three rounds of combat, Orks win with 14 to 15 boyz and the nob left.

10 Terminators (400pts)
After 7(!) rounds of assault, the Wraiths emerge victorious, with about 3 remaining.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Stalemate situation, terminators would eventually win with three to four surviving models.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Stalemate situation, but Terminatos would eventually win, with 2 to three surviving models.


6 Wraiths with Whip Coils(270pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
Three rounds of combat, Wraiths win and Orks fall back, with 6 orks and a nob surviving, and 2 to 3 wraiths surviving.
Whip Coils really DO do change the tide!

10 Terminators (400pts)
Exactly the same as if fighting without Whip coils

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Stalemate situation, with three wraiths eventually surviving.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Similar to without whip coils - the advantage of the whip coils is slowly nullified by the Thunder Hammers.


20 Flayed Ones(260pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
After two rounds of combat, Flayed Ones win, with 12 to 13 survivors.

10 Terminators (400pts)
After four rounds of combat, Flayed Ones win, with 11 survivors.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
After 5 assault rounds, Terminators win with 5 to 6 survivors.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Same results as standard terminators.


10 Lychguard(400pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
After two rounds of combat, the Lychguard win, with 6 surviving models.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Lychguard clean up shop in second combat phase, only having lost a single model.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
After two rounds of assault, Terminators win with only two total casualties.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Oh god, this is a pure stalemate situation. Eventually, and by this I mean it's possible this could last longer than a game, a lone Lychguard may survive, but it's a tossup.


10 Preatorians(400pts)

30 Slugga Boyz with Powerklaw/Bosspole Nob (220pts)
Preatorians kill 4 orks shooting into combat.
After six rounds of assault, Orks win, with 12 to 13 boyz left and the nob.

10 Terminators (400pts)
Preatorians kill 3 Terminators shooting into combat.
After three rounds of combat, Preatorians survive with 8 models remaining.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Praetorians kill 3 Terminators shooting into combat.
After 7 drawn out assault phases, Preatorians win, with three models left.

10 Terminators With Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields (400pts)
Praetorians kill just under 2 terminators shooting into combat.
After 3 rounds of combat, Terminators win, with 5 surviving models.

Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

DarkHound wrote:Sorry, I have this image of Necrons being a footslogging army. This new mech scene doesn't look terribly strong and I'm having a hard time assuming it is the norm. However my point still stands: at 24" it would take 558 points worth of Fireknives (Plas/Mis, right?) to kill 130 points of Warriors standing out of cover. If the squad has cover, than even the maximum amount of Fireknives in Rapid Fire range would inflict 7.47 wounds. 2 of them get back up, and the Ghost Ark should add another 2 to the squad. 558 points to kill 39.

And when all the FK's are all BS5 it's easy enough to wipe a squad. 2+ and 2+ means you can devastate squads.

Edit: out of cover 15.68 shots hit and wound. from a full 4 man HQ+leet squad

Sasori wrote:Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

In general, their strength 5, AP 1 assault shots into combat really help thin the herd a bit. They will also strike first with their CC weapons (when fighting normal and TH/SS termies), which are str5 and power weapons. Include RP, and they hold.

For LC, the LC's need 5's to wound, which abates the issue of them striking before the praetorians somewhat.

Kharrak wrote:

Sasori wrote:Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

In general, their strength 5, AP 1 assault shots into combat really help thin the herd a bit. They will also strike first with their CC weapons (when fighting normal and TH/SS termies), which are str5 and power weapons. Include RP, and they hold.

For LC, the LC's need 5's to wound, which abates the issue of them striking before the praetorians somewhat.

Did you include their re-rolls?

Ok, I have a question here. How are the Praetorains surviving so long in combat. They don't have an Invul save against any of the terminator weapons.

T5 is a knock to the head of S4 power attacks, even lightning claws, and a 5++ is not a reliable save against their shooting, knocking down the number that will last long enough to swing a powerfist which WILL wound reliably. Once those things are not an issue (See the results against the TH/SS) the Praetorians fare rather poorly, even with the charge.

Were the lychguard results with or without shields?

warspawned wrote:Did you include their re-rolls?

I did indeed ;P

SOFDC wrote:Were the lychguard results with or without shields?

Without the shields.

I may try it out with shields, but the fact that their CC weapons change from power weapons to weapons with rending and entropic strike deterred me.

EDIT: Actually, I'll work on some calcs with the shields - but later today!

Kharrak wrote:

warspawned wrote:Did you include their re-rolls?

I did indeed ;P

SOFDC wrote:Were the lychguard results with or without shields?

Without the shields.

I may try it out with shields, but the fact that their CC weapons change from power weapons to weapons with rending and entropic strike deterred me.

EDIT: Actually, I'll work on some calcs with the shields - but later today!

Hyperphase swords are power weapons.

The Preateorians are the one that switches to a rending weapon.

Sasori wrote:Hyperphase swords are power weapons.

The Preateorians are the one that switches to a rending weapon.

Do'h. I really should stop posting at all until I've learned everything off by heart xP

But yeah, I'll do a calc later with the sheild + hyperphase swords stuff.

I'm kind of curious how long a squad of purifiers will last vs these guys.

Hyperphase swords are still power weapons. It's the praetorians Void blade that is rending and entropic, not the Lychguard Shield + Hyperphase.

EDIT: NINJA!

Also, purifiers with halberds will probably react favorably due to hammerhand halberds.

seen it somewhere else that sword and shield lych vs TH/SS termi's is a draw, if they start with the same number of models each whoever charges wins, but they only lose about a model each a turn or something.

After reading the codex, I find Necrons to be a formidable army, able to contend with anyone.

Necron OVERLord, Rez Orb, + 20 warriors. 20 guass shots a turn while walking up. (Relentless with phearon upgrade, and if you have a stalker and shot at a unit/tank... these warriors shooting at same target are twin linked)

The Wraiths as jump infantry, and the Scarabs with the beast rule are great F/A choices IMO

I may be wrong, but does it actually say you have to roll to hit with the Death Ray from a Doom Scyth? I know its silly, but it gives specific instructions on how to fire it, no where does it say "roll to hit"

I do not see the logic on their transports. Arc can carry 10 warriors, warriors can go up to 20? Maybe buy the arc to drive beside a unit of 15/20? Use the repair.

Night Scyth, carry 15 models, but Warriors cant take it.. immortals who cap out at 10 can however...

You hear alot about SW this, or Blood angels that. I think one of the greatest combos on the board. Is taking Nem Z and his body guard HQ as well. Stick the body guard with lych guard, (shields up grade). Then use body guards veil to go near a unit you like. Use Nem Z to give you lychguard counter attack, and take away 1 of the special abilities of the enemy unit you just deep struck next to.

Your opponent can not ignore that move.... So now they are forced to take some attentions off the Doom Scyths, the scarabs running up, and the wraiths jumping to your face. Not to mention the C-Tan......

Speaking of which, i play space wolfs, i love dropping a drop pod first turn with 8 wolf guard with combi meltas next to the biggest HQ/ Tank on the board. Give the C-tan firelord, walk him up next to your monolith to make sure this does not happen.

Taking a Cryptek will give a second unit the veil run around trick....



I really see no use in the bikes, the destroyers, preatorians are great but inferior to lychguard on paper IMO. The "mech" army thing to me is not worth it. So forget the transports.

I like immortals, but being only 10 deep.. they may get wiped out first turn. But again if they get focused (as they walk up with the tesla), then your opponent once again is not focusing on Scarabs, Lych, or doom Scythes.

On a side note, when do you think they will release the next wave of models? Doom ships, wraiths, spiders, and possibly new scarabs?

shadzinator wrote:seen it somewhere else that sword and shield lych vs TH/SS termi's is a draw, if they start with the same number of models each whoever charges wins, but they only lose about a model each a turn or something.

5V5

Assault Terminators charge
I2: Necrons - 38% chance of 1 unsaved wound, 21% chance of 2 Unsaved wounds, 7% chance of 3 - Assuming 1
I1: Thunder Hammers 12 attacks: 32% chance of 1 unsaved wound, 28% chance of 2 unsaved wounds; 15% chance of 3

With luck, the Assault Terminators will deal 2 wounds more than the necron, allowing for high probability of sweeping advance, but statistically a draw is likely or a morale save at 9, Ressurection Protocols give a slight statistical edge to the necron if they don't get swept. With a 33% chance of regaining a lost unit for the second round of CC. The second round of CC will most likely see 1 more terminator die, and 1 or 2 more necrons die, counterbalanced by Res for a slight overall for the necrons.

Okay, here we go, using the same assumptions as before (perfect piling in, Necrons always have the assault)

10 Lychguard with Dispersion Shields and Hyperphase Swords (450pts)

29 Sluggas + Powerklaw, Bosspole Nob (220pts))
Two rounds of assault, after which Orks run. 6 boys and the nob survive. 8 Lychguard survive.

10 Terminators (400pts)
Two rounds of assault, terminators wiped out. 9 Lychguard survive.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws (400pts)
Three to four rounds of assault, Terminators wiped out. 5 Lychguard survive.

10 Assault Terminators with Storm Shields and Thunderhammers (400pts)
Six rounds of assault, Terminators wiped out. 5 Lychguard survive.

Heh, interesting results, particularly when compared to the vanilla lychguard results.

Glad to see Lychguard can take Terminators, even if it is generous assuming Lychguard get the charge. They're definitely killy, but at 400+ points I'd hope that's the case. I just can't help but think how much more I could be getting spending those points elsewhere: 2 Monoliths..2x10 Scarabs/2 Spyders..12 Wraiths, etc.

Tsilber wrote:Necron Lord, Rez Orb, + 20 warriors. 20 guass shots a turn while walking up. (Relentless, and if you have a stalker and shot at a unit/tank... these warriors shooting at same target are twin linked)

I think you need to re-read the Codex; Necron Lords do not make Warriors Relentless, a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade does.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Tsilber wrote:Necron Lord, Rez Orb, + 20 warriors. 20 guass shots a turn while walking up. (Relentless, and if you have a stalker and shot at a unit/tank... these warriors shooting at same target are twin linked)

I think you need to re-read the Codex; Necron Lords do not make Warriors Relentless, a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade does.

And that is really costly and still extremely prone to getting swept. Phaeron+Warriors seems a poor use of an Overlord, especially since Overlord can't take Orb. Even a regular Lord+Orb is 75 points...I'd just as soon take more Warriors.

The problem with those assault assumptions is that Lychguard, realistically, aren't getting the charge, since they lack a delivery mechanism-- unlike Assault Terminators, who can benefit from the Land Raider, a Librarian's Gate of Infinity, a Stormraven, etc.

whigwam wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Tsilber wrote:Necron Lord, Rez Orb, + 20 warriors. 20 guass shots a turn while walking up. (Relentless, and if you have a stalker and shot at a unit/tank... these warriors shooting at same target are twin linked)

I think you need to re-read the Codex; Necron Lords do not make Warriors Relentless, a Necron Overlord with the Phaeron upgrade does.

And that is really costly and still extremely prone to getting swept. Phaeron+Warriors seems a poor use of an Overlord, especially since Overlord can't take Orb. Even a regular Lord+Orb is 75 points...I'd just as soon take more Warriors.

Overlords can take Rez Orbs. And a Court lord with an Orb is not 75 points.

People, please read the codex and entires before making a post. There have been numerous mistakes in this thread.

Oh, my mistake. I was mixing Orb up with Veil--forgetting what they took away from the old (Over)Lord. Are you sure about the cost of the Orb Lord though? I might be 10 off, but even then it doesn't seem like a good price.

whigwam wrote:Oh, my mistake. I was mixing Orb up with Veil--forgetting what they took away from the old (Over)Lord. Are you sure about the cost of the Orb Lord though? I might be 10 off, but even then it doesn't seem like a good price.

Come on. Almost every pic of his model has him holding the orb too.

I'm trying two Overlords in Cmd. Barges, so there's the other reason the Orb kind of slipped my mind. My take is it's one of the more pointless/costly upgrades they've got available.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I'm not exactly staring at pictures of Necron Overlords all that often...the ones I've modeled are just waving hello with an open hand.

I actually think the Tau would give Necrons a run for their money. Between Blacksun Filters, Str 6 AP4 pie plates, Rail Guns and enough Str 5 spam from Fire Warriors to the Suits would certainly melt away Necron Warriors and Immortals, even their Missile Pods are leathal. A very fast, Tau Mech list would give any Necron list a run for their money.

** i meant necron overlord, apologies for the confusion.

Necron Over lord can take Orb.

Plus i do not see them getting sweeped with 20 deep. Of coarse you are gonna have support, by running up with wraiths or ctan. 20 Gauss shots, relentless, and twin linked if you utilize a stalker before hand. Thats making someone pick up dice. And your shooting 20 shots that can effectively hurt anything on the board. Again if people are gonna charge this unit then they are ignoring other units that are far more threatening.

Not to mention if you use Nemesor, you can give the above unit. Counter charge, or hit run.... If you use his body guard in the above unit, you have a veil that will sweep you away from combat. If you put Nemesor himself in the unit then once they are assaulted, his body guard will automatically deep strike to him and pile in... Now theres 3 lords their, with counter charger, str5/7 power weapons, 2 with 3+invuls.

If this unit gets overrun, its gonna take something big.

IMO Putting a lord in a barge... he gets blown out, he gets shot to hell and he fails his get up roll..... Thanks for coming. I guess playing out will only tell. Still, Safety in numbers if you ask me, 20 potential twin linked shots with weapons that can hurt anything within 24 inches. Potentially, Counter charge if you get assaulted...


Units may cost a lot, or seem weird. But I see a lot of pieces and combination that will be used together to pull out good results and victories.

10 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws(400pts)
Praetorians kill 3 Terminators shooting into combat.
After 7 drawn out assault phases, Preatorians win, with three models left.

No possible way that is the average result. I think you have number of attacks wrong (base 2+1 for terminators, 1 for praetorians) and you are making RP rolls before fealess wounds maybe?

Fetterkey wrote:The problem with those assault assumptions is that Lychguard, realistically, aren't getting the charge, since they lack a delivery mechanism-- unlike Assault Terminators, who can benefit from the Land Raider, a Librarian's Gate of Infinity, a Stormraven, etc.

I do not think they need to get the charge off.... I guess you could put them in a night scyth if you wanted to help them get the charge off...

But i think you put them in a position to get charged (use a cryptik with a veil, or Nemesors body guard veil), no one in charge range when you show up near an enemy unit, is gonna shoot at you with those reflection shields. You pretty much saying charge me, or get charged. If you opt to use Nemesors body guard, you can add a cryptek with Harbinger of the storm if you have a Necron overlord as your other HQ.

And if they get charged, if you use Nemesor (who i really like, and basically is a must to support my opinion) You get counter charge, and take away a special ability of the enemy charging if they have one. T5, 4+ invu, and now 3 attacks back. Str 5 power weapons... Seems good enough to me.


(ALSO: anyone got any information on death ray? Description to fire does not say anything about having to roll to hit, seems silly. But it says what it says)

Well, now you're saying you have expensive HQs to synergize with them. If we're taking that route, Terminators could be in a Vulkan army, have a Chaplain with them, or have a Librarian with Null Zone to support their charge. Further, the shields are a red herring. Most weapons can freely fire on you-- shields or no shields-- because the shields only work if you take your invulnerable save, not your armor save.

Fetterkey wrote:Well, now you're saying you have expensive HQs to synergize with them. If we're taking that route, Terminators could be in a Vulkan army, have a Chaplain with them, or have a Librarian with Null Zone to support their charge. Further, the shields are a red herring. Most weapons can freely fire on you-- shields or no shields-- because the shields only work if you take your invulnerable save, not your armor save.

Very Valid points, the shield save or armor save scenario especially makes you think. Good debate, I guess time will tell what will work or what wont. I still like the idea of putting them in a position to get charged they seem very resilent with t5, 4+ invul ,and 5+ RP. but a night scythe transport might be a good alternative. I do think you have to use a lot of pieces and combination to make a competitive list, a lot more thinking then most most army list.



EDIT: My other Army is Space wolfs, I must say if my wolf lord with termies were in a position to charge Lychguard or get charged following turn. I would charge. While i might shoot at them with a storm bolter or 2 to try to pepper them up. I would not start shooting ap3 or ap2 Long fangshots, in fear of that reflection onto my own unit, well maybe AP3, but certainly not LasCannons. (Plasma Cannons all day

Nevermind.... I'm so stupid ... I totally forgot the RAP....

Edit for huge mistake in my math...

As a former tyranid player, is anyone else absolutely horrified by Canoptek spiders?

for 175 points you can have a unit of 3, 3 wound, T6 3+ Mc's that can poop babies to absorb wounds, 9 attacks on the charge

thats 9 wounds of T6 3+ with wound allocation and free bullet shield shananagins
yeah they are slower, and compete for HS slots with models that are required, but jeeze!

The "pooped" babies have to go to a unit of scarabs within 6". So they are not part of the same unit as the Spider, and since spiders are not independent characters, unless im missing something then they cant join a unit of Scarabs either . That being said the rest of your comment is still worth a threat to consider.

Grundz wrote:As a former tyranid player, is anyone else absolutely horrified by Canoptek spiders?

for 175 points you can have a unit of 3, 3 wound, T6 3+ Mc's that can poop babies to absorb wounds, 9 attacks on the charge

thats 9 wounds of T6 3+ with wound allocation and free bullet shield shananagins
yeah they are slower, and compete for HS slots with models that are required, but jeeze!

Note that Spyders can only add Scarabs to existing squads, so the Scarabs aren't quite absorbing wounds. You also have to pay a bit for the equipment for wound allocation, so a kitted unit of three will be 175. Still, Spyders are definitely a bargain. Can't wait until they get better models..

*Ninja'd..!

TH/SS termies can't sweeping advance. A failed morale test would just end in lychguard falling back and getting to use their RP. The TH/SS termies could attempt to walk the lychguard off the table at that point, but they never get to make a sweeping advance.

I'd like to point out that the only thing in the codex that has EW is the c'tan which is pretty brutal.

Edit: Also, I just dont think things are fair for the necrons, if any marine got a SC or MC as expensive as the C'tan they wouldn't give it a 4+ save. Its going to get destroyed by splinter cannons.

whigwam wrote:

Grundz wrote:As a former tyranid player, is anyone else absolutely horrified by Canoptek spiders?

for 175 points you can have a unit of 3, 3 wound, T6 3+ Mc's that can poop babies to absorb wounds, 9 attacks on the charge

thats 9 wounds of T6 3+ with wound allocation and free bullet shield shananagins
yeah they are slower, and compete for HS slots with models that are required, but jeeze!

Note that Spyders can only add Scarabs to existing squads, so the Scarabs aren't quite absorbing wounds. You also have to pay a bit for the equipment for wound allocation, so a kitted unit of three will be 175. Still, Spyders are definitely a bargain. Can't wait until they get better models..

*Ninja'd..!

Scarabs only have a 6" move +D6" fleet now so the spyders can keep up with a 6" move and D6" run and poop babies until the scarabs decide to make a 12" charge move. 2 turns of pooping babies puts scarab bases equal to 60% of the spyders cost on the table.

schadenfreude wrote:Scarabs only have a 6" move +D6" fleet now so the spyders can keep up with a 6" move and D6" run and poop babies until the scarabs decide to make a 12" charge move. 2 turns of pooping babies puts scarab bases equal to 60% of the spyders cost on the table.

Oh yeah, I know that. I was running 2 Spyders like this just last night. What I meant was Scarabs won't be absorbing wounds that the Spyders would be taking otherwise (like they used to, when poop-Scarabs still attached to the Spyder's unit).

schadenfreude wrote:
Scarabs only have a 6" move +D6" fleet now so the spyders can keep up with a 6" move and D6" run and poop babies until the scarabs decide to make a 12" charge move. 2 turns of pooping babies puts scarab bases equal to 60% of the spyders cost on the table.

I missed the whole no mixed unit part honestly, but thats what I was getting at
the things are more point effecient than any tyranid mc really, they don't blow their O rings 60% of the time, and scarabs are sort of more useful than gaunts. (sans uber upgraded gaunts with feel no pain), /and/ they don't fill the board with killpoints, thats /mean/!

Grundz wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Scarabs only have a 6" move +D6" fleet now so the spyders can keep up with a 6" move and D6" run and poop babies until the scarabs decide to make a 12" charge move. 2 turns of pooping babies puts scarab bases equal to 60% of the spyders cost on the table.

I missed the whole no mixed unit part honestly, but thats what I was getting at
the things are more point effecient than any tyranid mc really, they don't blow their O rings 60% of the time, and scarabs are sort of more useful than gaunts. (sans uber upgraded gaunts with feel no pain), /and/ they don't fill the board with killpoints, thats /mean/!

Imagine 3x 3x Spyders and 3x 10x Scarabs. Adds up to only 975 points with the Spyders kitted for allocation. If only I could afford that many Scarab bases.....

whigwam wrote:
I missed the whole no mixed unit part honestly, but thats what I was getting at
the things are more point effecient than any tyranid mc really, they don't blow their O rings 60% of the time, and scarabs are sort of more useful than gaunts. (sans uber upgraded gaunts with feel no pain), /and/ they don't fill the board with killpoints, thats /mean/!

Imagine 3x 3x Spyders and 3x 10x Scarabs. Adds up to only 975 points with the Spyders kitted for allocation. If only I could afford that many Scarab bases.....

The Sentinels could do pretty well I think. I was forced to engage a Defiler with one of my Scarab squads the other day...the Instant Death stomping + No Retreat wounds did not treat me well. Was only able to put -3 on the Defiler's armor before the Scarabs were all mushed (granted there were only 6 bases to begin with and no Spyders nearby).

Would a lack of tank shocking apply as a weakness? I mean its kind of a letdown that the 115 point AR13 troop transport can't tank shock at all. Not even an upgrade that makes it possible.

whigwam wrote:

Grundz wrote:As a former tyranid player, is anyone else absolutely horrified by Canoptek spiders?

for 175 points you can have a unit of 3, 3 wound, T6 3+ Mc's that can poop babies to absorb wounds, 9 attacks on the charge

thats 9 wounds of T6 3+ with wound allocation and free bullet shield shananagins
yeah they are slower, and compete for HS slots with models that are required, but jeeze!

Note that Spyders can only add Scarabs to existing squads, so the Scarabs aren't quite absorbing wounds. You also have to pay a bit for the equipment for wound allocation, so a kitted unit of three will be 175. Still, Spyders are definitely a bargain. Can't wait until they get better models..

*Ninja'd..!

List temptation... lol ... 3x3 spyders...

Run it with Ghost Arks that the Spyders can repair as well, flawless victory :p






Actually, what would be the best vehicle that could run with this and the spyders could keep repaired?

AND

Can Ghost Arks all occupants fire because it's open topped + 5 shots to one bow?

yes - thats the intent.

Here's an interesting option: I believe you can opt to save on your Invulnerable even when your armor save is available, thus activating the reflection.

DarkHound wrote:Here's an interesting option: I believe you can opt to save on your Invulnerable even when your armor save is available, thus activating the reflection.

No. You have to take the best available save.

Then I went and looked, and the wording does seem to support you. "In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." Worded like that, it seems to say you are never forced to use worse than your best instead of actually requiring you always use your best. I suppose you are correct though.

EDIT: The only reason I bring this up is my first statement was from memory. I'm not trying to weasel in some rules lawyering, just stating that was the impression I got from the rules on the initial read some years ago.

DarkHound wrote:Then I went and looked, and the wording does seem to support you. "In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." Worded like that, it seems to say you are never forced to use worse than your best instead of actually requiring you always use your best. I suppose you are correct though.

EDIT: The only reason I bring this up is my first statement was from memory. I'm not trying to weasel in some rules lawyering, just stating that was the impression I got from the rules on the initial read some years ago.

That's a good point, but it also means that every shot they reflect is going to be AP3 or higher.

Tsilber wrote:IMO Putting a lord in a barge... he gets blown out, he gets shot to hell and he fails his get up roll.

Except this can't happen. It is a transport like any other, he can't get blown out of it. And a vehicle moving Flat Out is a lot harder to destroy than a guy on foot, even in a unit, especially given Symbiotic Repair and the nature of the vehicle damage table.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Tsilber wrote:IMO Putting a lord in a barge... he gets blown out, he gets shot to hell and he fails his get up roll.

Except this can't happen. It is a transport like any other, he can't get blown out of it. And a vehicle moving Flat Out is a lot harder to destroy than a guy on foot, even in a unit, especially given Symbiotic Repair and the nature of the vehicle damage table.

I'll give you the benefit of the doupt, quatum shielding and being able to make sweep attack while moving flat out is pretty sick. But if your moving flat out, and only making THREE 4+ attack rolls, then it seems like a big waste of a necron overlord.

Once quantum shielding is down, the ship is paper, thats also open topped..... A twin linked Auto cannon can drop it, even with it moving flat out. The symbiotic does nothing against 5 or 6 rolled on the pen chart.

I am not dismissing it by any means. I like the model a lot also. But I still stand by my "Safety in Numbers" suggestion.

Gah. For some reason I hadn't realized that the you could still do sweep attacks moving flat out.

...

It's telling how nasty that combo is that not even moving flat out I've been able to kill at least min 1 vehicle before the Barge got taken out. Now that I know I can move flat out (and get the cover save for it)...

Also, for those worried about your HQ getting killed after the Barge goes down... I had Zahnrekh have his Barge explode, then have roughly 1/3 of my opponent's army fire at him. Didn't take a single wound, past his pinning test, everything, and then he proceeded to assault the same guys that wrecked his Barge the next turn.

Ruan wrote:Gah. For some reason I hadn't realized that the you could still do sweep attacks moving flat out.

...

It's telling how nasty that combo is that not even moving flat out I've been able to kill at least min 1 vehicle before the Barge got taken out. Now that I know I can move flat out (and get the cover save for it)...

Also, for those worried about your HQ getting killed after the Barge goes down... I had Zahnrekh have his Barge explode, then have roughly 1/3 of my opponent's army fire at him. Didn't take a single wound, past his pinning test, everything, and then he proceeded to assault the same guys that wrecked his Barge the next turn.

What were you playing against, if you dont mind me asking.

Succubus w/agoniser is the answer

Tsilber wrote:

Ruan wrote:Gah. For some reason I hadn't realized that the you could still do sweep attacks moving flat out.

...

It's telling how nasty that combo is that not even moving flat out I've been able to kill at least min 1 vehicle before the Barge got taken out. Now that I know I can move flat out (and get the cover save for it)...

Also, for those worried about your HQ getting killed after the Barge goes down... I had Zahnrekh have his Barge explode, then have roughly 1/3 of my opponent's army fire at him. Didn't take a single wound, past his pinning test, everything, and then he proceeded to assault the same guys that wrecked his Barge the next turn.

What were you playing against, if you dont mind me asking.

Space Marines, honestly don't know if it was of a particular flavor or vanilla. Still rather new to the game. It was a scout cycle list with Space Marine scouts on bikes all over the place. Obviously there wasn't exactly high AP in his list, so Zahndrekh always got his 2+ armor save. Otherwise it would've been a much different story. Ended up losing due to essentially getting outmaneuvered and having my Immortals swept on an Objective mission. Didn't help that my Lychguard w/ Obyron ended up mishaping off the table and into reserves due to an unlucky Deep Strike via his special Veil of Darkness.

Still though, in another game I had Anrakyr taking fire from high AP weapons. Between him consistently getting into assaults (and killing people) as well as getting up no less than twice when he died from Ever-Living, plus him using my opponent's tank's weapons against him... and that's after him having taken out a Dreadnaught turn one (opponent drop-podded it right in front of his Command Barge - he's not going to make -that- mistake again).

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I have yet to win a game with Necron yet (which I blame on inexperience), but I've definitely been enjoying playing them.

So what about a few lych guard and a necron lord, warscythe and res orb.

The only reason I think I like that unit is that the res orb is only really useful for models that cost a lot.

I figure the 35 points (adding 5 because the lord is no better than a lych guard with scythe but costs 5 points more) is worth it if you can make one extra save on any of the guys. Also the advantage of having a warscythe is that you get some anti tank.

Tomb World Chen'ek has finally awoken and it is not ran by an Overlord but the master program CKO! (Final Gift of the Ctan ) I said I was going to come back and leave some comments after reading and digesting the codex, I think people are over exagerating some things.

CKO wrote:Look on page 3 Mat Ward will tell you that they suck in melee so if you want an army that is ok-good in every phase its called Marines. How do you complain about cc when necrons never had it? So what is there to miss?

I agree that I 2 makes the army overall bad in cc, however you can still have powerful cc units. 2 Necron Lords with scythes and orb in a Ghost Ark with 8 warriors has the potential to beat most things in cc. Not to mention the unit will kill tanks with ease especially the immobilized ones. (All of those glances from the necron shooting phase will pay off) Or you can make large squads and be the envy of IG players who wish commissars had power fist as the lords cannot be singled out. The goal of our cc is to tie up units.

CKO wrote:People are underestimating quantom shield, in a nerdy voice like my own "If they pen you than the bonus is gone!", well let me tell you a secret if they pen your open top vehicle than not only will the bonus be gone but theres a 50% chance the vehicle is gone aswell, so when I lose the shield I will consider myself lucky because that means the vehicle is still alive.

I dont think anyone truly mention this as a weakness but alot of people try to down play how good it really is. Imagine its turn 2 or 3 and you you just pen 3-4 of his tanks making them lose their quantom shields, and in your next turn they proceed to activate a solar pulse and your not able to get in range of the squishy av 11 open top vehicle. Not to mention living metal is like a poor's man fortitiude.

CKO wrote:Long Range Fire Power

We have long range fire power infact we can have some of the best but why make an army do something it is not naturally intended to do? If you give walkers the tl heavy gauss cannon than fill your list with cryptek lances, Heavy Destroyers, and doomsday ark than you can take out most targets with ease.

The necrons weaknesses are not as profound as the web is making it seem.

We have long range fire power infact we can have some of the best but why make an army do something it is not naturally intended to do? If you give walkers the tl heavy gauss cannon than fill your list with cryptek lances, Heavy Destroyers, and doomsday ark than you can take out most targets with ease.

The necrons weaknesses are not as profound as the web is making it seem.

I tend to agree. I think the I2 is being way overplayed and the resiliency is being under played. Having played my share of Dark Eldar I can tell you have superior initiate will only take you so far. People seem to forget that we now have RP ALL THE TIME, unless the unit gets wiped out. Moral of the story, scrap the MSU. I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

I think it's going to take some time for people to break out of their preconceived notions, but with time you will see some very effective, and diverse, builds come out of this codex.

ShadarLogoth wrote:I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

An entire army of MSU Necrons? Yeah, that' stupid.

A regularly robust army that also includes two 5 man Warrior squads? That's just good thinking. 5 man Warrior squads are amazing in objective games if there's a regular army around them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I tend to agree. I think the I2 is being way overplayed and the resiliency is being under played. Having played my share of Dark Eldar I can tell you have superior initiate will only take you so far. People seem to forget that we now have RP ALL THE TIME, unless the unit gets wiped out. Moral of the story, scrap the MSU. I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

By not going for MSU, you do neglect a whole lot of ranged high S damage though...basically, you trade offense (lances) for defense (a 5+++).

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:I'm embarrassed how many MSU lists I've already seen in the Army List section (speaking specifically of Necron lists of course). Making a MSU list directly ignores one of the most important features of the army.

An entire army of MSU Necrons? Yeah, that' stupid.

A regularly robust army that also includes two 5 man Warrior squads? That's just good thinking. 5 man Warrior squads are amazing in objective games if there's a regular army around them.

True, although I think I might still lean towards the one group of 10. I guess it largely depends on what else is in the army. But yeah what I was primarily referring to is entire MSU armies. Certain units, FOs, Warriors and Immortals in particular, become much hardier when they are maxed out IMHO. Also, dropping a Res Orb or Cryptet with unit multiplier abilities into a larger unit is obviously much more effect use of the points.

An entire army of MSU Necrons? Yeah, that' stupid.

A regularly robust army that also includes two 5 man Warrior squads? That's just good thinking. 5 man Warrior squads are amazing in objective games if there's a regular army around them.

I'd agree with this. At 2k, especially playing a NoVa or similar format, six troop choices is pretty standard. Having two min Warriors hide in reserves for back objectives is a good idea.

I think Crons will befuddle the MEQ crowd because of the "omg my guys don't do everything well" mentality that power armor creates. Necrons are more akin to Eldar in that the units are specialized and require synergy and support. Using speed bumps and having some solid counter assault will really help against blitzing armies for those who, like me, are going to be running footcrons.

Sasori wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Here's an interesting option: I believe you can opt to save on your Invulnerable even when your armor save is available, thus activating the reflection.

No. You have to take the best available save.

Isn't that a bit subjective? If, in my opinion at the time of being shot, the 4+ reflection is better then the 3+, does that not make it the best save available?

Honest question, as I don't think there has ever been a situation in the past where the invulnerable would arguably be the better save (when the #+ isn't better).