Title say it all. But I was wondering can someone enlighten me with this.
According to this there are 3 types of chapters in the Imperium.

Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Brother Coa wrote:Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

The Galaxy is fairly large, and those Chapters are spread throughout it, and often embroiled in their own conflicts. While they may be willing to jump to the aid of their progenitors, they're not always going to be available, or able to get there in time.

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Because their Primarchs said 'Hey, you know what? This book's pretty good. Let's do this!'

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same?

I have no idea where you're getting that from. Black Templars are thought to the largest Chapter currently in the Imperium. Nobody's quite sure just how many of them there are. And there is no problem with their Geneseed. Their deviance from the Codex is purely an organisational thing, not a result of mutation.

And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Space Wolves had one known successor Chapter, which was purged by the Inquisition for genetic instability. I don't recall if there are any listed successors of the Black Templars, but there's no real reason that there couldn't be a whole swag of them.

It is just plain Matt Ward fanboy-ism, that whole section in the codex makes me cringe. Chapters revive their Primarch above all else (expect the Emperor) and the only reason they follow the Codex Astates is because all the Primarchs agreed so to save the Imperium.

For the Lion!

insaniak wrote:
I have no idea where you're getting that from.

Space Marine codex 5'th edition, page 26.

What Mad Tanker said. It's just Mr Ward making his favourite Chapter better than all the rest, while we all know there are more effective Chapters than the 'Ultra'marines. I've just pretended that this passage is from their point of view because they are self rightous dicks as they are portrayed everywhere else. The passage is not actually true, just like Draigo for the Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:
These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Robute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:
Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's(?!!) legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it.

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:

Others, such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little how they fare in the eyes of others.

Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of Ultramarines, and all those who follow in their example.

Mr Ward at his finest.

[sarcasm]So you're suggesting that perhaps some people dislike Mat Ward's hyperbolic writing and resent the Ultramarines' poster-boy status?

Thanks for that, I'd never otherwise have known.[/sarcasm]

I have no idea where you're getting that from. Black Templars are thought to the largest Chapter currently in the Imperium. Nobody's quite sure just how many of them there are. And there is no problem with their Geneseed. Their deviance from the Codex is purely an organisational thing, not a result of mutation.

Isn't the inflated numbers of Black Templars due to the fact that they have the highest casualty rate of all the chapters? Nothing says 'We need more Neophytes' after charging headlong into a Tau Gunline.

It's due to their eternal crusade in the name of the God-Emperor; they need Legion numbers to spread humanity's perfection over the entire galaxy

Brother Coa wrote:Title say it all. But I was wondering can someone enlighten me with this.
According to this there are 3 types of chapters in the Imperium.

Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Galaxy is a big place and Hive Fleet Behemoth attacked more then just Macragge at frightening speed. There wasn't enough time to mobilize apparently.

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

They wouldn't, it's an idiotic piece of Matt Ward fluff. The Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Raven Guard are all fiercely proud of their heritage and their Primarch before Guilliman.

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

The logic by Ward is that since the Ultramarines gene-seed is so magnificent while everyone elses is so horrible that they have a dominant share of successor chapters.

It's all a bunch of hyperbole written by Ward, and is a good source of Ward-hate from non-Ultramarine players. It's also probably where all the Ultramarines fanboyism comes from.
"Oh look, we're the best cause our Primarch wrote the Codex that all you guys have to follow. We're the best, nyer nyer nyer". Or atleast thats how I feel about it.

Really annoyed me, since the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard are my favourite First Founding Legions, and their Primarchs were also my favourite. To think they'd swallow their pride and disregard the teachings of their own Primarch? Pah! Fat chance. 'Type 2' Chapters are very proud of their heritage, and would only follow the Codex superficially (in terms of company divisions and deployment).

Hell, IIRC, despite being a 'Codex' Chapter, the Raven Guard are known for their 'reckless' disregard of the Codex. In other words, Corax's bad boys are taking Roboute's Codex and telling him to shove it

To be honest, this thread is demonstrating just as big a propensity for hyperbole as people are accusing Mat Ward of...


While the Space Marines codex is certainly a little Ultramarines-centric, the simple fact is that the fluff has always (or at least for as long as the Codex Astartes has been a part of it) suggested that the bulk of the Marine Chapters follow the Codex Astartes to some degree.

Whatever people may personally think of the Ultramarines (and frankly, I've never really understood just why people get so worked up about them) within the 40K setting Guilliman was acknowledged as a brilliant military mind by his brother Primarchs.

So the idea of other Chapters wanting to 'be like the Ultramarines' isn't just something that Mat Ward dreamed up. The Codex Astartes is the standard that the Marine Chapters were given to aspire to, and those who choose to follow it do it willingly... not because they're disregarding their own Primarchs' teachings, but because their Primarchs thought it was a good idea.


And that's not even touching the whole whole silly claim of Mat Ward being single-handedly responsible for developing the background of the game. He's not the only guy in the design studio.

Brother Coa wrote:How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

A. Simple maths would say that if the number of Space Wolfs/Black Templar remain constant while the number of chapters founded under Ultramarine derived geneseed is increased would mean that the percentage of Space Wolves would decrease.

B. Space Wolves have no successor chapters, the only one that was formed became genetically unstable as it had to recruit outside of Fenris.

insaniak wrote:
While the Space Marines codex is certainly a little Ultramarines-centric,

I doubt "a little" is the correct term.
Most of it IS ultramarinish....

insaniak wrote:
the simple fact is that the fluff has always (or at least for as long as the Codex Astartes has been a part of it) suggested that the bulk of the Marine Chapters follow the Codex Astartes to some degree.

To some degree, yes. There was the threat of violence, before the surviving Primarchs agreed upon its use.
The HH-series provides the "authors" disagreement at applying the codex literally too.

insaniak wrote:
So the idea of other Chapters wanting to 'be like the Ultramarines' isn't just something that Mat Ward dreamed up.

Sure it is something he dreamt up. There is no evidence outside the space marine codex of this urge to become a copy of the ultramarines in every chapter out there.

insaniak wrote:
The Codex Astartes is the standard that the Marine Chapters were given to aspire to, and those who choose to follow it do it willingly... not because they're disregarding their own Primarchs' teachings, but because their Primarchs thought it was a good idea.

See, like stated before a new civil war didn't happen but it was close. So maybe the idea wasn't as convincing as you paint it?

insaniak wrote:
And that's not even touching the whole whole silly claim of Mat Ward being single-handedly responsible for developing the background of the game. He's not the only guy in the design studio.

Mitgehangen , mitgefangen

Matthew Ward is noticed as main author of codices and thus part of the problem.
The moment he said something in a WD interview himself, ruined any chance to get away as innocent.....

And there is no problem with their Geneseed.

Imperial fist successor. Lack of a Sus-an membrane and Betcher`s gland. No spitting acid or hibernation for you.

I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Being halfway across the galaxy, embroiled in their own conflicts, frantically replacing losses....Or perhaps they did, but were not specifically mentioned. I don't recall specific mentions of which Ultramar PDF/Guard forces were involved, but that does not mean they were not present.

The battle for macragge story, chiefly, is about the Ultramarines getting their butts handed to them, and with some help (most notably X and/or Y) managed to beat back the ALIEN BEANZ! anyway. Not a detailed breakdown of the war. Like in other codices, even if help was present going into it in great detail detracts from the "This army is awesome!" thought that the writer wants to invoke.

I swear, Ward's biggest failing was not managing to get the title of the book changed to "Codex: Ultramarines." this one change makes a great deal of the fluff contained inside suddenly not so inconsistent with what you see in the other more specific books.

1hadhq wrote:See, like stated before a new civil war didn't happen but it was close. So maybe the idea wasn't as convincing as you paint it?

I never said they piled on the idea as the best thing since sliced bread. But they did agree to it.

Matthew Ward is noticed as main author of codices and thus part of the problem.
The moment he said something in a WD interview himself, ruined any chance to get away as innocent.....

Sure, he's the guy with the credit for the actual writing. But that doesn't mean he's developing the background in a vaccuum. So by all means criticise his writing style if it makes you feel better... but the 'fault' for the current direction of the 40K background lies at the feet of the studio as a whole, not just Mr Ward.

insaniak wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

The Galaxy is fairly large, and those Chapters are spread throughout it, and often embroiled in their own conflicts. While they may be willing to jump to the aid of their progenitors, they're not always going to be available, or able to get there in time.

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Because their Primarchs said 'Hey, you know what? This book's pretty good. Let's do this!'

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same?

I have no idea where you're getting that from. Black Templars are thought to the largest Chapter currently in the Imperium. Nobody's quite sure just how many of them there are. And there is no problem with their Geneseed. Their deviance from the Codex is purely an organisational thing, not a result of mutation.

And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Space Wolves had one known successor Chapter, which was purged by the Inquisition for genetic instability. I don't recall if there are any listed successors of the Black Templars, but there's no real reason that there couldn't be a whole swag of them.

1. Exactly.

2. Their primarchs didn't necessarily like it, they just didn't ignore it ENTIRELY. I.E. Dorn almost decided to blow the Smurfs the feth up.

And also, those chapters are stated as "dwindling" but asaik Space Wolves and Black Templars, the two most deviant chapters in the IoM, are by far the largest, with space wolves being ~3000, maybe a bit more even and Templars being ~6000 maybe more maybe less. As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

im2randomghgh wrote:As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

And that would litterally make no sense what so ever, There aren't enough viable humans for the space marine process to make the Marines neccesary to equal the sheer number of Orks. Orks are believed to be one of the most prolific races in the Galaxy.

BluntmanDC wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

And that would litterally make no sense what so ever, There aren't enough viable humans for the space marine process to make the Marines neccesary to equal the sheer number of Orks. Orks are believed to be one of the most prolific races in the Galaxy.

Yeah, uh... That was a joke...

Brother Coa wrote:
Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

Well I have an issue with the examples you have sited. One is IF and other Black Templars, one is following Guilliman the other is doing it's own thing. They both share the same Primarch. Black Templars have a stable Gene-seed it's the same as IF, though they cannot spit acid (obviously Rogal thought this was ok). The BT are probably the most numerous chapter, they have massive crusade fleets and build recruiting stations all over the place. They quest beyond the established Imperium and kill everything in their path shouting HERESY and FOR THE EMPEROR. So are they both following their Primarch, well No. Do they both follow the Codex Astartes, well no. Do they have gene-seed issues, well no.

So shouldn't we have a 4th Category, e.g. Loyalists with attitude (Black Templar, Crimson Fists, Dark Angels, Iron hands etc)

Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

So he gave an interview and got a little carried away. He does that in every interview I've read of his, it's how he is. As for the codex, I'd guess he's aiming to have a Codex:Ultramarines and Codex:Wish We Were Ultramarines in 6th ed.

insaniak wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As far as we know, they templars could outnumber the orks

And that would litterally make no sense what so ever, There aren't enough viable humans for the space marine process to make the Marines neccesary to equal the sheer number of Orks. Orks are believed to be one of the most prolific races in the Galaxy.

Yeah, uh... That was a joke...

Damn your JOKES!

Yeah, the Iron Hands took one on the chin in C:SM. All the other loyalist first foundings at least got a big block with their tiny amount of fluff inside (Barring the ones with their own codex), even the White Scars! The Iron Hands got lumped in with all the other random codex chapters...The Crimson Fists got one over them.

FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

Such douchebaggery shall not pass! Mr Ward allow me to explain how a chapter with balls operates. 6000ish German Space marines rushing into a line of whatever they can find and headbutting said thing untill they run home crying. Or maybe a bunch of flying angels blasting the hell out of they most powerful Bloodthirster bar Doombreed because he pissed off their primarch 10000 years ago. Note that neither of those chapters involve a bunch of blue bitches sitting around eating grapes and talking about how awesome they are. Rant over, I'm gonna go eat a copy of C:SM

FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

I dug out my old SM release White Dwarf and I have to say this is sickening. I actually thought that all this complaint about the spiritual liege was misplaced, while all along it has been perfectly justified, straight from the horse's mouth.

I also found this in the interview:

In the past it's been very easy to rail against the Ultramarines - I think they've sometimes been percieved as warriors who rarely leave Ultramar, marching round parade grounds in full dress. This is far from the truth as they're one of the hardest working chapters out there.

Maybe this was intended to provide an actual character flaw so they aren't Mary Sues, but the best Space Marines ever shouldn't be anything but that, right?

SMURFS ARE FEThiNG SHOWOFFS! THEIR PRIMARCH IS NOT GREAT!

DreadlordME! wrote:SMURFS ARE FEThiNG SHOWOFFS! THEIR PRIMARCH IS NOT GREAT!

Show us on the doll where Guilliman touched you.

DreadlordME! wrote:SMURFS ARE FEThiNG SHOWOFFS! THEIR PRIMARCH IS NOT GREAT!

Maybe not a great fighter, but a great tactician nevertheless.
He also don't deserve all that hate because o Mr. Ward.

Deathly Angel wrote:It's due to their eternal crusade in the name of the God-Emperor; they need Legion numbers to spread humanity's perfection over the entire galaxy

Fixed that for you. The Black Templars don't acknowledge the Emperor as divine any more than any other Space Marine chapter.

Does anyone remember back in the day (2nd edition) it was mainly Blood Angels. Remember BA on the cover of 40k BOX with his powerfist, Blood Angels on the Cover of Space Crusade. At least a 1/3 of the SM mini's photographs in a WD were BA.



I think it's less fanboism, and more practicalities. It just so happens that 'Eavy Metal have one of everything in the SM Codex in Ultramarine blue, if you doubt me look at the picture galleries in C:SM. They couldn't incorporate every chapter, though I am disappointed that they didn't focus on the 10 Loyalist Legions a bit more.

When all is said and done, Guilliman wrote the codex, Ultramarines are the foremost exemplar of the Codex Astartes. It's natural that all other CHapters compare to this benchmark, like all SF are compared with the SAS as the original exemplar SF unit.

FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

I play Ultramarines, but I don't think any one chapter is truly the "best". Ultramarines are the most flexible, but as I recall in Horus Rising, Dorn and one of the other primarchs jested about who could sack an Imperial Fist fortress, and Dorn or Horus said how the siege would just go on forever because the two forces would be so evenly matched.

Brother Coa wrote:Title say it all. But I was wondering can someone enlighten me with this.
According to this there are 3 types of chapters in the Imperium.

Type 1 - Those who are called "scions of Guiliman". Who are descendant from his geenseed and who follow codex Astartes to the letter. It is also said that "Should the Lord of Ultramar ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters ever willing and able to fight at his side.", then why they didn't help them in Battle for Macragge? I recall that only Segmentum Tempestus fleet from Bakka helped them and noone else, why didn't these chapters helped them if they are so titled to them?

Type 2 - Their geen-seed is from another Primarch and they can never be Ultramarines. But they will "ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch". Titled Chapters are Imperial Fist, White Scars and Raven Guard, why would they put Guiliman teachings ahead of teachings of their own Primarchs?

Type 3 - Chapters who are aberrants with geen-seed mutations and stubbornness. it is said that "Blood Angels are striving to be worthy of Guliman legacy but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it." As far as I know Blood Angels are almost all cc assault Chapter and they are following teachings of Sanguinus. And last, Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars who are following the path of their own Primarchs "care little in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." How can Space Wolves and Black Templars be few in numbers toward Ultramarines? And how can they be dying out when their numbers are constantly the same? And AFAIK Space Wolves do have few successor Chapters while BT have none, but how is this relevant toward dying out?

It's a bit difficult to easily bracket them like that. Like much else in 40k, it's a mixture of intention, progaganda and reality. As far as the Imperium is concerned, all chapters SHOULD be following the Codex Astartes and revering Guilliman as the one who wrote it, even if not as their 'liege lord' (espeically if they're decended from another Primarch. Even Chapters like the Blood Angels adhere to the Codex, with the exception of a few different units because of their dodgy Geneseed.

However, in reality, all sorts of different factors affect how closely chapter ACTUALLY follow it, so you have examples of...

* Ultramarines-descended Chapters who follow the Codex exactly.
* Ultramarines-descended Chapters who have moved away from the Codex due to cultural differences, new information, battle losses, such as the Iron Snakes
* Other chapters who follow the Codex - Imperial Fists and most of their successors.
* Chapters who follow the Codex, but with a few deviations because of their Primarch's way of war, history or weird genetic things - Blood Angels, Raven Guard, White Scars, Dark Angels
* Chapters who couldn't give a toss about the Codex, and do what they want - Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Black Templars

BrainDeleted wrote:Yeah, the Iron Hands took one on the chin in C:SM. All the other loyalist first foundings at least got a big block with their tiny amount of fluff inside (Barring the ones with their own codex), even the White Scars! The Iron Hands got lumped in with all the other random codex chapters...The Crimson Fists got one over them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This book gave the Iron Hands as much fluff as the Astral Knights, and their infoblurb was about as big as that of the Doom Legion. Do you know who the Doom Legion is? Neither does anybody else.

Weren't they in the WWF?



No wait, my bad..

As much as people like to trash the 5th Edition Codex, and it is chock full of some silly fanboi-isms, but if you think about it, the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. For the twenty plus Second Founding chapters, they might as well be Ultramarines considering all of their original members were Ultramarines before the break up of the legions. Of course there would be a fair amount of reverence amongst the various Chapters (and probably some envy) that had to give up their Ultramarines heraldry. So yes, Guilliman is the spiritual liege of all of those chapters because over 3/4s of all Space Marine Chapters can trace their heritage back to the Ultramarines. This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet, it makes sense if you take a few seconds to think about it.

Whether or not that makes them instantly and ultimately loyal to the current iteration of the Ultramarines is a different thing.

Mind you, a lot of people forget that Mat Ward didn't create a lot of this. Most of the source material he is working with comes from guys like Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson. The Ultramarines were called "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" on the back cover of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines. They've been part of the "Big Four" (Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) for almost twenty years.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet

I want proof.


Wait no...I don't.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:As much as people like to trash the 5th Edition Codex, and it is chock full of some silly fanboi-isms, but if you think about it, the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. For the twenty plus Second Founding chapters, they might as well be Ultramarines considering all of their original members were Ultramarines before the break up of the legions. Of course there would be a fair amount of reverence amongst the various Chapters (and probably some envy) that had to give up their Ultramarines heraldry. So yes, Guilliman is the spiritual liege of all of those chapters because over 3/4s of all Space Marine Chapters can trace their heritage back to the Ultramarines. This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet, it makes sense if you take a few seconds to think about it.

Whether or not that makes them instantly and ultimately loyal to the current iteration of the Ultramarines is a different thing.

Mind you, a lot of people forget that Mat Ward didn't create a lot of this. Most of the source material he is working with comes from guys like Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson. The Ultramarines were called "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" on the back cover of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines. They've been part of the "Big Four" (Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) for almost twenty years.

Closer to 1/2 the chapters, or 2/5.

Also, the Ultramarines only kept the name, there is no other difference between them and say, the Doom Eagles.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Closer to 1/2 the chapters, or 2/5.

It's 3/5's. 5th edition Codex. pg. 8

The Ultramarine Legion is responsible for nearly 3/5 of the gene-core of the curent Space Marine Chapters.

Ronin wrote:
Really annoyed me, since the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard are my favourite First Founding Legions, and their Primarchs were also my favourite. To think they'd swallow their pride and disregard the teachings of their own Primarch? Pah! Fat chance. 'Type 2' Chapters are very proud of their heritage, and would only follow the Codex superficially (in terms of company divisions and deployment).

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

Ronin wrote:
Hell, IIRC, despite being a 'Codex' Chapter, the Raven Guard are known for their 'reckless' disregard of the Codex. In other words, Corax's bad boys are taking Roboute's Codex and telling him to shove it

Incorrect, the Raven Guard are noted to follow the Codex closely.

"Of these, more than half are descended from the Ultramarines" - Codex: Ultramarines, 1995 and Codex Space Marines, 2008

So it's definitely more than half. C:SM 5E lists it as 3/5 on page 8. But I know I've seen it in print that it's closer to 3/4. I can't remember where and it isn't worth it to search dozens of books. It's irrelevant to my greater point though if we're splitting hairs between .6 and .75. Still a distinct majority.

But, realistically, if the Ultramarines represented "more than half" of all loyalist forces at the time of re-organization into Chapters in 30K, and the Ultramarines' (or other Primogenitor Chapters') gene seed are used most often for the creation of new Chapters due to the extremely low defect level, then it stands to reason and simple math that by 40K, the percentage of Ultramarines derived Chapters would be a distinct and absurd majority.

As to the second part of your post, I can't find its relevance because I made no mention as to anything to the contrary. It sounds like exactly what I said, that the Primogenitor Chapters are essentially Ultramarines in everything but name.

Having a majority of the chapters out there be descended from Ultramarines doesn't make them all Ultramarines clones, which is the vibe you get from reading the latest codex. Time and distance would make most chapters not be Ultramrines clones. Even second founding chapters like the Iron Snakes have some notable deviations from the Codex, and ol' Uriel was pretty aghast at how the Mortifactors did things.

So, while I buy that most chapters keep close to Codex size for political purposes, I find it reeeeaaallllyyyyy unlikely that most chapters are so close to Ultramarines in personality and organization that they are cookie cutter, for all intents and purposes.

I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:As much as people like to trash the 5th Edition Codex, and it is chock full of some silly fanboi-isms, but if you think about it, the vast majority of Space Marine Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. For the twenty plus Second Founding chapters, they might as well be Ultramarines considering all of their original members were Ultramarines before the break up of the legions. Of course there would be a fair amount of reverence amongst the various Chapters (and probably some envy) that had to give up their Ultramarines heraldry. So yes, Guilliman is the spiritual liege of all of those chapters because over 3/4s of all Space Marine Chapters can trace their heritage back to the Ultramarines. This isn't some kind of spank that Mat Ward came up with masturbating in his closet, it makes sense if you take a few seconds to think about it.

Whether or not that makes them instantly and ultimately loyal to the current iteration of the Ultramarines is a different thing.

Mind you, a lot of people forget that Mat Ward didn't create a lot of this. Most of the source material he is working with comes from guys like Rick Priestley and Jervis Johnson. The Ultramarines were called "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters" on the back cover of the 1995 Codex: Ultramarines. They've been part of the "Big Four" (Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) for almost twenty years.

And if they called it "Codex: Ultramarines" like they did in my big ol' 2nd ed blue book, I'd be a bit more okay with the wankfest that is the 5e book. But to portray the Fap Ward codex as the baseline for upwards of 90% of all extant Space Marines, and to gloss over all the myriad differences - that could be explored in 4e via the traits - in favor of some characters who are basically "captain plus stubborn" (and don't get me started on the implications of THAT particular USR) is a disservice to everybody who doesn't want their 3000 point army to have a Captain, 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 2 assault squads, and five terminators.

Gree wrote:

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

"Second only to the ultramarines in terms of codex compliance" implies some deviations.

Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults, whereas the Imperial Fists, under chapter master Vladmir Pugh, are noted for planning meticulously. to the point of being slow to the battle, but with perfect strategy, just as the fists have always done.

Plus, they nearly had to go to war with the ultramarines because those pussies who weren't even defending their emperor on terra dared to tell the fists, who were the primary defense of terra, that they were fighting wrong.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

"Second only to the ultramarines in terms of codex compliance" implies some deviations.

Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults, whereas the Imperial Fists, under chapter master Vladmir Pugh, are noted for planning meticulously. to the point of being slow to the battle, but with perfect strategy, just as the fists have always done.

You are incorrect. IA Imperial Fists

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines

Pugh is not descibied as slow at all in the same article. Please also provide me a quote that says the Codex promots only swift assaults. The Codex Astartes covers all tactical situations to my knowledge.

Whilst not a particularly inspirational leader. Vladimir Pugh is as meticulous a planner as any Chapter Master in the Imperial Fists' history. In addition he excels in knowing who to promote and who to trust with critical missions - an appraising glance from Master Pugh can be bettered only by extensive probing from a Librarian. As a result when battle begins, Pugh can concentrate on commanding his Veteran reserve with absolute faith that his subordinates will not fail the Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, they nearly had to go to war with the ultramarines because those pussies who weren't even defending their emperor on terra dared to tell the fists, who were the primary defense of terra, that they were fighting wrong.

You mean right after the Scouring, when the Ultramarines formed more than half the Astartes it the field and formed a vital part of the Imperial defense durign those dark times?

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults,

The Codex covers everything. The idea of swift, organic assaults is just something that would be imperative on the offensive for units as small as Space Marines tend to deploy in. Even an entire Chapter is a pretty small unit next to a division of Imperial Guard. They would typically focus on surgical strikes, shock assaults, etc, because that is what allows them to take advantage of their flexibility and heavy firepower while minimizing the weakness of their lack of manpower.

Just because a Chapter is specialized at one facet of warfare or another is somewhat irrelevant.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

Incorrect, the Fists are noted to be the paragons of the Codex Astartes after the Ultramarines.

"Second only to the ultramarines in terms of codex compliance" implies some deviations.

Also, the codex promotes swift, organic assaults, whereas the Imperial Fists, under chapter master Vladmir Pugh, are noted for planning meticulously. to the point of being slow to the battle, but with perfect strategy, just as the fists have always done.

You are incorrect. IA Imperial Fists

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines

Pugh is not descibied as slow at all in the same article. Please also provide me a quote that says the Codex promots only swift assaults. The Codex Astartes covers all tactical situations to my knowledge.

Whilst not a particularly inspirational leader. Vladimir Pugh is as meticulous a planner as any Chapter Master in the Imperial Fists' history. In addition he excels in knowing who to promote and who to trust with critical missions - an appraising glance from Master Pugh can be bettered only by extensive probing from a Librarian. As a result when battle begins, Pugh can concentrate on commanding his Veteran reserve with absolute faith that his subordinates will not fail the Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, they nearly had to go to war with the ultramarines because those pussies who weren't even defending their emperor on terra dared to tell the fists, who were the primary defense of terra, that they were fighting wrong.

You mean right after the Scouring, when the Ultramarines formed more than half the Astartes it the field and formed a vital part of the Imperial defense durign those dark times?

1. Yeah I just realized my source was retconned. And it doesn't promote only swift assaults, I didn't say that. That is simply one of the more important aspects because that is when astartes are useful.

2. While the Imperial fists were busy crusading and keeping the enemy on the defensive?

Rogal Dorn's grief was immense in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. Until that point, Dorn had been true, noble and enduring, but now he became an avenging son dressed in the black of mourning. Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period. Nonetheless, Dorn was absent from the highest councils of the Imperium until he returned to Terra upon being summoned by Roboute Guilliman to be presented with the Codex Astartes

Right after the fists defended the Emperor, while the Ultramarines were across the galaxy, fighting a legion considerably smaller than themselves?

Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes and enmity developed between him and Guilliman. Dorn called Guilliman a coward, citing his lack of participation in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex. This enmity quickly involved other Space Marine Legions and a rift developed, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders stood by the Imperial Fists, while Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars and Corax of the Raven Guard supported the Ultramarines. A second civil war appeared likely when the Imperial Fists strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy in connection with Codex crisis.15a However, Dorn ultimately relented after spending seven days meditating in the pain glove. There, he concluded that the Legion could no longer serve the Emperor who had been and must serve the Emperor who was, which involved accepting the new order of which the Codex was a part

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. While the Imperial fists were busy crusading and keeping the enemy on the defensive?

And while they were doing that the Ultramarines were forming more then half the Astartes in the field. The Ultramarines did more than the Fists by virtue of sheer numbers than anything else.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Right after the fists defended the Emperor, while the Ultramarines were across the galaxy, fighting a legion considerably smaller than themselves?

Actually no. It was not right after. The Codex Astartes was presented after a decade of total war in which the Ultramarines formed a vital link in holding the Imperium together.

IA Ultramarines

The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

Deathwatch Rites of Battle further expands on this noting how vital Guilliman was to the future of the Imperium.

Interestingly enough the Fists are noted to have gotten more flexible because they adopted the Codex Astartes in their own IA article even.

Thanks Guilliman.

Gree wrote:



Interestingly enough the Fists are noted to have gotten more flexible because they adopted the Codex Astartes in their own IA article even.

Thanks Guilliman.

Thanks gullyman?
Must be just your copy of it.


Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

IA was a nice source. Was. ( 6-9 years old now. )
When it was published and the course of the background ran smoothly alongside these IA articles.
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Things change, and the way the codex astartes is "seen", surely has.

Gulliman intended for it this....
The UM act yet that way....
10 millenia happend....

So I'd stop thanking Gulliman for his collection of wisdom from 10 millenia ago, as either there were later contributions or the codex is so outdated it isn't worth wasting time on research through such a tome. Feel free to credit the Primarchs which had their wisdom added to this book. Maybe the impressum got lost so they believe Gullian came up with everything written there alone in an ivory tower.

1hadhq wrote:
Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

Except that's not how they are described as well. Fists commanders Pre-Codex were noted as unimaginative and straightforward when planning and leading. It’s only when they adopted the Codex did they get more flexible.

IA fists

Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defences.

In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach -attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With their adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

1hadhq wrote:
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Said story was written by McNeill, whose interpretation of the Codex is frankly insane. (See my example about the Codex not containing basic protocols of improvised demolitions.)

1hadhq wrote:

So I'd stop thanking Gulliman for his collection of wisdom from 10 millenia ago, as either there were later contributions or the codex is so outdated it isn't worth wasting time on research through such a tome. Feel free to credit the Primarchs which had their wisdom added to this book. Maybe the impressum got lost so they believe Gullian came up with everything written there alone in an ivory tower.

The Codex id updated over the centuries.

Space Marine Codex, pg. 9

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Note the term guidelines. This is form the modern Marine Codex and has been reprinted multiple times in the past.

Basically McNeill say this and assumed that strict adherence to doctrine must mean the doctrine itself must be strict. His interpretation violates what's currently published in the Codices.

Why woudl the Imperium beleive Guilliman wrote alone when he got several sources from other Primarchs? And why would it be outdated?

And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

And thing about IF pre-heresy being inflexible is outdated. They are now simply described as siege specialists who acted as the Emperor's reserve.

ALSO, They were a crusading legion, much as the black templars are now, and their raids Leveled fortress after fortress

Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period

Also, Dorn was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying the first black crusade, which, during the period of instability the Imperium was in, would have likely destroyed it.

And it's easy to account for 1/2 the SM when your legion, already the biggest by virtue of being 3 legions rolled into one, didn't get depleted like the others were due to SAVING TERRA.

im2randomghgh wrote:And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

Said book was also written by Graham McNeill, who contradicts to depiction in the Space Marine Codex and his interpretation is frankly daft. (See my earlier example)

Of course, one must question why the Codex would not include protocols dealing with enemies who have the Codex, considering the Codex was written after the Heresy , when Astartes went traitor, this seems like a glaring oversight.

I mean, if we go by the Codex: Space Marines depiction and not McNeill's depiction then the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. So an opponent privy of the Codex would then have to know the exact force assets of the Codex Strike Force, and it would also have to know what the Codex commander knows about the opposing force. The opposing commander also would have to know the Codex commander's priorities and objectives (will he defend the shrine, evacuate the population, or focus entirely on hunting enemy forces), which will largely depend on the commander's preferences, not on specific Codex guidelines.

Bottom line, even with knowledge of the Codex, a Codex commander's approach would depend on a myriad of factors, not all of which are known to an opposing commander, and not all of which are based on the Codex. (Is the Codex force at full strength, or did it lose all of it's Assault squads in a prior engagement? It's approach will differ if that's had happened.) The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Plus I thought you said Black Library wasn't canon, why are you citing it then?

im2randomghgh wrote:An
And thing about IF pre-heresy being inflexible is outdated

Why is it outdated? Can you give me a statement contradicting that?

im2randomghgh wrote:
ALSO, They were a crusading legion, much as the black templars are now, and their raids Leveled fortress after fortress

Yes and? How does that relate to my point?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period

Where is this quote from?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, Dorn was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying the first black crusade, which, during the period of instability the Imperium was in, would have likely destroyed it.

You are incorrect. The first Black Crusade occurred long after the Scouring and the breaking of the Legions, when Imperial rule of solified. And he did not single handedly destroy it.

He did much damage, but the actual destruction was a result of the Imperial Navy.

IA Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And it's easy to account for 1/2 the SM when your legion, already the biggest by virtue of being 3 legions rolled into one, didn't get depleted like the others were due to SAVING TERRA.

That’s nice. It doesn’t change the fact they pretty much held the Imperium together and did more than the Fists by virtue of sheer numbers.

im2randomghgh wrote:And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

The question then becomes: What do you believe should be taken as more accurate? What GW has said about the Codex and the Ultramarines for almost twenty years, or what one Black Library license fiction author writes in his books?

Mind you, everything in 40K fluff is contradicted at some point because they have no fact checking or quality control at GW. What should be taken as true are things that make sense. If the Ultramarines are the most successful of Space Marine Chapters, then it would be idiotic to believe that Chaos Marines could predict every move an Ultramarine commander would make. The Codex would give commanders dozens, if not hundreds of ways to approach any given tactical or strategic situation. Even if they were well read on the most recent edition of the Codex (which seems unlikely), for the Iron Warriors to do such a thing would mean having to be prepared for hundreds of different outcomes, all at the same time. Which, though ridiculous, in all actuality would only speak to the effectiveness of the Codex as a comprehensive treatise on war, since the Iron Warriors had to follow its doctrines to be successful in the defense. But, that whole idea, like most of what Codex critics on these kinds of forums seem to believe, is incredibly stupid.

The entire idea of the Codex is to take humanity's greatest warriors, and give them an expansive tome to refine and perfect their combat tactics and set a standard by which Marines are trained and kept combat ready (something every real world military does). I really don't understand what drives so much of the Ultramarines hate. They've never been the most exciting or interesting of Chapters, but at worst you could just call them sort of vanilla. But there seems to be some very deep seated, irrational nerd-hate for them amongst 40K communities that doesn't seem to have any basis in the rational, reasonable, or intelligent. Yeah, so Mat Ward likes Ultramarines, and wrote some stuff in a Codex. But he wasn't the one who called them "The greatest of the Space Marine chapters". That was Rick Priestley. You know him. One of the founders of 40K. The part about the bulk of Marine chapters being descended from the Ultramarines? Priestley. Most of these stories existed before Ward compiled them into a Codex, but even so, Codex: Space Marines is hardly the first SM codex (from any chapter) with some downright absurd gak written in it, lol.

English Assassin wrote:[sarcasm]So you're suggesting that perhaps some people dislike Mat Ward's hyperbolic writing and resent the Ultramarines' poster-boy status?

Thanks for that, I'd never otherwise have known.[/sarcasm]

Wow look for clever that sarcasm is [/sarcasm]

DoctorZombie wrote:

FerrusFair wrote:Ward's worst offense in Codex: SM is clearly the blatant sidelining of the Iron Hands. His worst Ultramarines spank wasn't in the codex. It was in the interview he did re: 5e Codex Marines.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

I play Ultramarines, but I don't think any one chapter is truly the "best". Ultramarines are the most flexible, but as I recall in Horus Rising, Dorn and one of the other primarchs jested about who could sack an Imperial Fist fortress, and Dorn or Horus said how the siege would just go on forever because the two forces would be so evenly matched.

That was horus, and he said it was because the Imperial Fists were the best in defense and the Luna Wolves were the best in attack.

ANd I agree, each chapter has it's specialties. The Ultramarines would be worse than the fists in a siege, worse than the White Scars at lightning raids, worse than the Salamanders at playing with fire.

But at the same time, they are probably better than the IF at Playing with fire, better than the white scars at siege, and better than the Salamanders at fast attacks.

You know what I mean?

And also, If you look at the fluff of any chapter, you can quickly be convinced that they are the best.

For example, the Fists utilize a huge amount of heavy weaponry due to their siege specialization, and are expert swordsmen due to honour duelling, and would be just about immune to pain because of the pain glove.

And Salamanders are basically immune to heat and should have armour that counts as artificer etc.

White Scars could have discounted bikes for troops etc.

You see where this is going.

Though I do think it would be interesting to have a codex: 1st founding because you could have at least a SMALL reflection of what makes these chapters unique.

im2randomghgh wrote:

For example, the Fists utilize a huge amount of heavy weaponry due to their siege specialization,.

No they don’t. They are good at sieges but we have no indication at all in the fluff they have more siege equipment than a Codex Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and are expert swordsmen due to honour duelling,
.

The Fists like to engage in honor dueling, but that does not make them automatically better swordsman than other Chapters.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and would be just about immune to pain because of the pain glove.

The Fists like to punish themselves with pain but that does not make them more immune. Indeed, if they were immune to pain it would defeat the purpose of the Pain Glove.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And yet, the contribution would be minor, because in the Ultrmarines series, the Iron Warriors already know the tome so well as to be able to predict every move the Ultramarines would make.

Said book was also written by Graham McNeill, who contradicts to depiction in the Space Marine Codex and his interpretation is frankly daft. (See my earlier example)

Of course, one must question why the Codex would not include protocols dealing with enemies who have the Codex, considering the Codex was written after the Heresy , when Astartes went traitor, this seems like a glaring oversight.

I mean, if we go by the Codex: Space Marines depiction and not McNeill's depiction then the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. So an opponent privy of the Codex would then have to know the exact force assets of the Codex Strike Force, and it would also have to know what the Codex commander knows about the opposing force. The opposing commander also would have to know the Codex commander's priorities and objectives (will he defend the shrine, evacuate the population, or focus entirely on hunting enemy forces), which will largely depend on the commander's preferences, not on specific Codex guidelines.

Bottom line, even with knowledge of the Codex, a Codex commander's approach would depend on a myriad of factors, not all of which are known to an opposing commander, and not all of which are based on the Codex. (Is the Codex force at full strength, or did it lose all of it's Assault squads in a prior engagement? It's approach will differ if that's had happened.) The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Plus I thought you said Black Library wasn't canon, why are you citing it then?

im2randomghgh wrote:An
And thing about IF pre-heresy being inflexible is outdated

Why is it outdated? Can you give me a statement contradicting that?

im2randomghgh wrote:
ALSO, They were a crusading legion, much as the black templars are now, and their raids Leveled fortress after fortress

Yes and? How does that relate to my point?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period

Where is this quote from?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, Dorn was almost single-handedly responsible for destroying the first black crusade, which, during the period of instability the Imperium was in, would have likely destroyed it.

You are incorrect. The first Black Crusade occurred long after the Scouring and the breaking of the Legions, when Imperial rule of solified. And he did not single handedly destroy it.

He did much damage, but the actual destruction was a result of the Imperial Navy.

IA Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And it's easy to account for 1/2 the SM when your legion, already the biggest by virtue of being 3 legions rolled into one, didn't get depleted like the others were due to SAVING TERRA.

That’s nice. It doesn’t change the fact they pretty much held the Imperium together and did more than the Fists by virtue of sheer numbers.

1. The codex is guidelines. It would propose a method of doing something. It cannot go into the detail you seem to think it can. Warfare is too chaotic for any physical book to hold every answer to every possible situation.

2. A statement contradicting that it's outdated? Your English is abominable.

3. You were saying they did comparatively little. While the Ultramarines were out acting like red cross, the Imperial Fists were ravaging the traitor legion, getting gak done.

4. Index Astartes II: Imperial Fists pg. 14-15

5.

Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter

He was picking them apart before reinforcements arrived, and it doesn't even say they arrived at all.

6. It still doesn't matter, while the IF were at war, you know that thing astartes are bred for? Yeah that, while the IF were doing that, the ultramarines were rebuilding. Not defending, rebuilding. They were not waging war in any form, they were writing a book!

And your own quotes seem to demonstrate that they were taking quantity rather than quality of troops at that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

For example, the Fists utilize a huge amount of heavy weaponry due to their siege specialization,.

No they don’t. They are good at sieges but we have no indication at all in the fluff they have more siege equipment than a Codex Chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and are expert swordsmen due to honour duelling,
.

The Fists like to engage in honor dueling, but that does not make them automatically better swordsman than other Chapters.

im2randomghgh wrote:
and would be just about immune to pain because of the pain glove.

The Fists like to punish themselves with pain but that does not make them more immune. Indeed, if they were immune to pain it would defeat the purpose of the Pain Glove.

1. I didn't say they deploy more. I said they'd likely have more, in their armouries. Which would mean easier/faster to replace heavy weapons lost in combat, and most likely a higher quantity of master crafted weapons.

2. It means they are very, very likely to be better. Most chapters practice against combat servitors in cages, practicing against astartes would be much more helpful. Plus, they have their feet in cement blocks while they do it, meaning they can do a lot without moving even having to circle their opponents, since realistically you can't circle your opponent on a battlefield, only in duels.

3. It would make them more resistant to it. The human body adapts to harsh circumstances.

@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

Deathly Angel wrote:@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

+1!

I think Gree is the username chosen by Matt Ward.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. The codex is guidelines. It would propose a method of doing something. It cannot go into the detail you seem to think it can. Warfare is too chaotic for any physical book to hold every answer to every possible situation.

I never claimed it can go into exact detail of everything. I even pulled up the quote for it to be guidelines. That’s exactly what I’m claiming. Did you not read my first post in this thread?

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. A statement contradicting that it's outdated? Your English is abominable.

So in other words you can’t provide the statement.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. You were saying they did comparatively little. While the Ultramarines were out acting like red cross, the Imperial Fists were ravaging the traitor legion, getting gak done.

The Ultramarines were also fighting the traitors, their quote says that. They participated in a decade of total war. It was the Ultramarines who took out the Olympia garrison.

im2randomghgh wrote:

4. Index Astartes II: Imperial Fists pg. 14-15

Not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

He was picking them apart before reinforcements arrived, and it doesn't even say they arrived at all.

And he died while doing it, he caused the damage that helped lead to the Imperial Navy coming in and destroying them, but he did not single handed cause their destruction.

im2randomghgh wrote:

6. It still doesn't matter, while the IF were at war, you know that thing astartes are bred for? Yeah that, while the IF were doing that, the ultramarines were rebuilding. Not defending, rebuilding. They were not waging war in any form, they were writing a book!

Index Astartes Ultramarines would contradict you, as would the Space Marine Codex.

I will post the IA example since you have seem to have missed it.

He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

Pg. 13 of the Marine Codex. This is from the 5th edition Codex but it was reprinted fromt he Second Edition one.

‘’The confusion and disorder following the Horus Heresy had left the Imperium weak and vulnerable Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desperate effort to stem the tide of invasion and unrest.

The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a tiem of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rather that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few systems where their heroism was unnoticed.

Within a decade, order was restored to the Imperium. Even as the Ultramarines reconquered, a new theory of warfare was emerging.

The Codex is quite clear. The Ultramarines participated quite heavily in the fighting.

IA Iron Warriors

The rest of the Iron Warriors defended their small empire based on Olympia, but there was no refuge from the retribution of the loyalist Legions. The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjugated worlds. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be like a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victim, could only be removed with great risk of injuring the patient further. The Olympia garrison held out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat was unavoidable. They left a blasted wasteland that, like the other Traitor Legion home worlds, was declared Perdita.

The Ultramarines are clearly mentioned as taking apart in the Olympia campaign, curiously the Imperial Fists are mentioned in a supporting role, implying that the Ultramarines are conducting the main campaign

im2randomghgh wrote:

And your own quotes seem to demonstrate that they were taking quantity rather than quality of troops at that point.

Where does it indicate at all that they were taking quantity instead of quality? The Ultramarines were spread all over the galaxy. Their brother Legions had been decimated. It’s only logical that they recruit more Astartes to cover more ground. There is nothing that even remotely implies the Ultramarines are of inferior stock.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. I didn't say they deploy more. I said they'd likely have more, in their armouries. Which would mean easier/faster to replace heavy weapons lost in combat, and most likely a higher quantity of master crafted weapons.

You said ‘’utilize’’, not ‘’they possess more equipment’’ indicating they operate said equipment in greater number rather than just having more of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. It means they are very, very likely to be better. Most chapters practice against combat servitors in cages, practicing against astartes would be much more helpful.

Astartes practice against servitor as part of their training, but why would other Astartes chapters not fight against other Astartes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
, they have their feet in cement blocks while they do it, meaning they can do a lot without moving even having to circle their opponents, since realistically you can't circle your opponent on a battlefield, only in duels.

Realistically you certainly can circle your opponent on a battlefield. It’s a maneuver called flanking. Why would they be unable to?

And also, footwork is a very important part of real life swordsmanship, so restricting your movement is a bad idea. But of course the example provided in Space Marine is an honor duel, not a training one. which as I recall was stopped at first blood.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. It would make them more resistant to it. The human body adapts to harsh circumstances.

And if they were more resistant to it then it would defeat the entire purpose of the pain glove being a punishment device now wouldn’t it?

If I stab myself in the arm, wait for it to heal and do it over and over again, it will still hurt the arm very time, unless I damaged a nerve.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Deathly Angel wrote:@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter. They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings. And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

+1!

I think Gree is the username chosen by Matt Ward.

No offense, but you write posts like you're more hard up for the Imperial Fists than Mat Ward is for the Ultramarines.

At least Mat Ward seems to have read his 40K history. You suggested the Ultramarines didn't participate in the war after the Heresy (but were writing a book), when the fluff that says they led the way in doing that dates back twenty years and hasn't changed. A lot of people seem to take offense to the idea that the Ultramarines were uniquely positioned following the Heresy to rise to prominence. That's just the way GW decided to write the history. But they also didn't get much glory in the Heresy, and didn't take part in the battle for Terra, which several other Legions can proudly claim. Heck, the original Horus Heresy fluff just said the Ultramarines destroyed a large force of Chaos reinforcements. The more detailed stories didn't come about until the last few years and it turned out that the massive Chaos force the Ultramarines defeated were the Word Bearers. And GW was even nice enough to the Ultramarines haters to amend the fluff to suggest that the Ultramarines didn't just crush them. So yeah, the Ultramarines became the poster boys for GW. That's mostly because they are relatively "standard" for Space Marines. Their back story doesn't require lengthy explanation as to why they have fangs and drink blood, or pony tails, or wear bathrobes. GW could have chosen any Chapter I guess. The Crimson Fists were on the cover of the original Rogue Trader book, but then they sort of fell off the map until 3rd Edition when the Big Four became Blood Angles, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines in 2nd Edition. But the guys in charge chose the Ultramarines, for whatever reason. And thus the history was set down.

I missed this actually.

Deathly Angel wrote:@Gree - The Imperial Fists are not just yellow Ultramarines. They have their own doctrines, traditions, and do not obey the Codex to the letter.

Yes they do. Index Astartes Imperial Fists is clear on that matter. They are not quite '''yellow Ultramarines'' but they are stated to be the epitome of Codex doctrine.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.

.....

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Right from GW, there words not mine.

Heck, even as far back as Second Edition were the Fists described as a close Codex Chapter.

Second Edition Codex Ultramarines

The Imperial Fists are a Codex Chapter and follow the precepts and dogmas of that time closely.

Deathwatch Rites of Battle

The Imperial Fists adhere to the doctrines of the Codex Astartes as strictly as their brothers of the Ultramarines. Squads, companies and Chapter household are all organized according to the standards set in that mighty tome, and the chapter is fully capable of prosecuting every type of warfare-from orbital drops to mechanized assaults- they are the epitome of a Codex Chapter.

Deathly Angel wrote: They are still a defensive siege orientated Chapter who obey their own Primarch's teachings.

They are a Codex Chapter noted to follow it very closely. They retain skill at seiges, but follow the Codex doctrines of being tactically flexible first and foremost.

Deathly Angel wrote: And Guilliman's Ultramarines are not better the the Imperial Fists, or any other Legion for that matter.

I never claimed they were superior, so I’m not sure what you are talking about.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. The codex is guidelines. It would propose a method of doing something. It cannot go into the detail you seem to think it can. Warfare is too chaotic for any physical book to hold every answer to every possible situation.

I never claimed it can go into exact detail of everything. I even pulled up the quote for it to be guidelines. That’s exactly what I’m claiming. Did you not read my first post in this thread?

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. A statement contradicting that it's outdated? Your English is abominable.

So in other words you can’t provide the statement.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. You were saying they did comparatively little. While the Ultramarines were out acting like red cross, the Imperial Fists were ravaging the traitor legion, getting gak done.

The Ultramarines were also fighting the traitors, their quote says that. They participated in a decade of total war. It was the Ultramarines who took out the Olympia garrison.

im2randomghgh wrote:

4. Index Astartes II: Imperial Fists pg. 14-15

Not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

He was picking them apart before reinforcements arrived, and it doesn't even say they arrived at all.

And he died while doing it, he caused the damage that helped lead to the Imperial Navy coming in and destroying them, but he did not single handed cause their destruction.

im2randomghgh wrote:

6. It still doesn't matter, while the IF were at war, you know that thing astartes are bred for? Yeah that, while the IF were doing that, the ultramarines were rebuilding. Not defending, rebuilding. They were not waging war in any form, they were writing a book!

Index Astartes Ultramarines would contradict you, as would the Space Marine Codex.

I will post the IA example since you have seem to have missed it.

He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.

Pg. 13 of the Marine Codex.

‘’The confusion and disorder following the Horus Heresy had left the Imperium weak and vulnerable Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desperate effort to stem the tide of invasion and unrest.

The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a tiem of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rather that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few systems where their heroism was unnoticed.

Within a decade, order was restored to the Imperium. Even as the Ultramarines reconquered, a new theory of warfare was emerging.

The Codex is quite clear. The Ultramarines participated quite heavily in the fighting.

IA Iron Warriors

The rest of the Iron Warriors defended their small empire based on Olympia, but there was no refuge from the retribution of the loyalist Legions. The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjugated worlds. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be like a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victim, could only be removed with great risk of injuring the patient further. The Olympia garrison held out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat was unavoidable. They left a blasted wasteland that, like the other Traitor Legion home worlds, was declared Perdita.

The Ultramarines are clearly mentioned as taking apart in the Olympia campaign, curiously the Imperial Fists are mentioned in a supporting role, implying that the Ultramarines are conducting the main campaign

im2randomghgh wrote:

And your own quotes seem to demonstrate that they were taking quantity rather than quality of troops at that point.

Where does it indicate at all that they were taking quantity instead of quality? The Ultramarines were spread all over the galaxy. Their brother Legions had been decimated. It’s only logical that they recruit more Astartes to cover more ground. There is nothing that even remotely implies the Ultramarines are of inferior stock.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. I didn't say they deploy more. I said they'd likely have more, in their armouries. Which would mean easier/faster to replace heavy weapons lost in combat, and most likely a higher quantity of master crafted weapons.

You said ‘’utilize’’, not ‘’they possess more equipment’’ indicating they operate said equipment in greater number rather than just having more of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. It means they are very, very likely to be better. Most chapters practice against combat servitors in cages, practicing against astartes would be much more helpful.

Astartes practice against servitor as part of their training, but why would other Astartes chapters not fight against other Astartes?

im2randomghgh wrote:
, they have their feet in cement blocks while they do it, meaning they can do a lot without moving even having to circle their opponents, since realistically you can't circle your opponent on a battlefield, only in duels.

Realistically you certainly can circle your opponent on a battlefield. It’s a maneuver called flanking. Why would they be unable to?

And also, footwork is a very important part of real life swordsmanship, so restricting your movement is a bad idea. But of course the example provided in Space Marine is an honor duel, not a training one. which as I recall was stopped at first blood.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. It would make them more resistant to it. The human body adapts to harsh circumstances.

And if they were more resistant to it then it would defeat the entire purpose of the pain glove being a punishment device now wouldn’t it?

If I stab myself in the arm, wait for it to heal and do it over and over again, it will still hurt the arm very time, unless I damaged a nerve.

1. We actually agree on something?!?!?!

2. So in other words, ask your question in other words.

3. And the IF, you proved. Also, The IF are stated as having destroyed "fortress upon fortress", so this one example of Ultrasmurfs doing anything (aided by the IF, no less) is less than astounding.

4. You asked where I got my quote about the IF crusading in the aftermath of the Heresy. That's the source.

5. We don't know it was the navy. The Imperial Fists recovered his body, meaning the terminator company he brought with him continued the fight. And IIRC he brought the phalanx, which would be wrecking face.

I'm tired, Im not going through that all. You make your posts so long, are you doing this to waste my time? I'll speak to the swordsman ship thing then PM me the others if you care THAT much.

As for the honour duels, being able to fight WITHOUT footwork means you'll have that much more of an advantage with it. At my hockey practices, we use weighted pucks, so that when we use the regular ones, we can shoot HARD.

As for flanking, that applies more to duels or to entire units, as within a unit, it doesn't work very well. Fighting in formation makes it hard to flank an individual. Duhh.

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. So in other words, ask your question in other words.

Can you please provide context? I’m not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, The IF are stated as having destroyed "fortress upon fortress",

How does that mean the Ultramarines did nothing?

im2randomghgh wrote:

so this one example of Ultrasmurfs doing anything (aided by the IF, no less) is less than astounding.

Fortunately we have more than one example, Cleary illustrated by the quote from the Codex of the Ultramarines engaging in combat and reconquest all over the Imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. You asked where I got my quote about the IF crusading in the aftermath of the Heresy. That's the source.

Where did I ask you for a quote about them crusading after the Heresy?

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. We don't know it was the navy.

We do it’s explicitly stated.

IA Imperial Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I'm tired, Im not going through that all. You make your posts so long, are you doing this to waste my time?

I make them long in order to counter each and every one of your points and illustrate what points I am addressing.

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for the honour duels, being able to fight WITHOUT footwork means you'll have that much more of an advantage with it. At my hockey practices, we use weighted pucks, so that when we use the regular ones, we can shoot HARD.

But you still practice with pucks of a sort. The Fists don’t even move so how can they exercise their leg muscles?

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for flanking, that applies more to duels or to entire units, as within a unit, it doesn't work very well. Fighting in formation makes it hard to flank an individual. Duhh.

Are you suggesting that Astartes line up shoulder to shoulder and fight like a Macedonian Phalanx? Because that’s the only situation of which I can think it would be hard to flank. In all other situations there is nothing stopping you from darting around an enemy’s side to stab at his side.

The Ultramarines, with their superior understanding of military tactics, knew that Terra had enough plot armour to survive any assault by the traitors fallen to chaos, and prepared to support the worlds of men following Horus' defeat.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. So in other words, ask your question in other words.

Can you please provide context? I’m not sure what you are addressing here.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Also, The IF are stated as having destroyed "fortress upon fortress",

How does that mean the Ultramarines did nothing?

im2randomghgh wrote:

so this one example of Ultrasmurfs doing anything (aided by the IF, no less) is less than astounding.

Fortunately we have more than one example, Cleary illustrated by the quote from the Codex of the Ultramarines engaging in combat and reconquest all over the Imperium.

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. You asked where I got my quote about the IF crusading in the aftermath of the Heresy. That's the source.

Where did I ask you for a quote about them crusading after the Heresy?

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. We don't know it was the navy.

We do it’s explicitly stated.

IA Imperial Fists

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

im2randomghgh wrote:

I'm tired, Im not going through that all. You make your posts so long, are you doing this to waste my time?

I make them long in order to counter each and every one of your points and illustrate what points I am addressing.

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for the honour duels, being able to fight WITHOUT footwork means you'll have that much more of an advantage with it. At my hockey practices, we use weighted pucks, so that when we use the regular ones, we can shoot HARD.

But you still practice with pucks of a sort. The Fists don’t even move so how can they exercise their leg muscles?

im2randomghgh wrote:

As for flanking, that applies more to duels or to entire units, as within a unit, it doesn't work very well. Fighting in formation makes it hard to flank an individual. Duhh.

Are you suggesting that Astartes line up shoulder to shoulder and fight like a Macedonian Phalanx? Because that’s the only situation of which I can think it would be hard to flank. In all other situations there is nothing stopping you from darting around an enemy’s side to stab at his side.

1. If you would stop cutting arguments up, this wouldn't be a problem. or you could, you know, scroll.

2. That means the IF did more.

3. Clearly illustrated is the fact that this is the only battle worth naming,

4.

Where is this quote from?

That's what you said, in the ~middle of page 2.

5. It says the Navy arrived in force. It also says the IF, aboard the Phalanx, took the fight to the traitors. In fact it doesn't even explicitly mention the navy doing anything.

6. Concision is a useful skill.

7. You are seriously worried about their legs being weak? The rest of their training would be more or less the same as any other space marines, except with more trench-digging

8. In brothers of the snake they did exactly that. Also, think about the enemies they face. Orks. A green tide means stepping out of the way of one ork and into the way of another. Same with nids. And Guard Mob. And kroot. The closest real-life equivalent would be trying that during a highland charge. You would die. And even against more "dignified" opponents, and out of formation, you are fighting as a squad. Step out of the line, and you open a gap an enemy can step through. You simply cannot sidestep in combat. In duels, yes. Not in combat.

Apologies, I tried to get this out sooner but the forum is being very slow.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. If you would stop cutting arguments up, this wouldn't be a problem..

This is rather standard forum procedure, apeparantly only you have the problem.

Of course if you simply told me what points yuu where adressing we would not have a problem.

im2randomghgh wrote:

or you could, you know, scroll.

It is still unclear even when going over both posts. I have already told you this.

im2randomghgh wrote:

2. That means the IF did more.

No it does not. It simply states they leveled fortress after fortress. Not that they did more than the Ultramarines.

im2randomghgh wrote:
3. Clearly illustrated is the fact that this is the only battle worth naming,

No it does not. We have maybe, two or three battles detailed from the Scouring. I would assume that we would have many more battles than two or three mentioned. We have no indication that this is the only battle worth naming, quite the opposite.

Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines. Always the largest Legion, the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desparate effort to stem the tide of the unrest.
The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a time of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rate that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few were the systems where their heroism went unnoticed."

This quote quite clearly proves the Ultramarine involvement is quite major in the Scouring.

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. It says the Navy arrived in force. It also says the IF, aboard the Phalanx, took the fight to the traitors. In fact it doesn't even explicitly mention the navy doing anything.

Wow, then the Navy obviously sat around doing nothing with their big battlefleet while a chaos fleet was right in front of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
6. Concision is a useful skill.

And this is an example of why I’m having trouble understanding your format. What are you addressing here?

im2randomghgh wrote:

7. You are seriously worried about their legs being weak? The rest of their training would be more or less the same as any other space marines, except with more trench-digging

Not that the legs will get weak, but if they don’t practice the combat moves with the legs they won’t get good with them. If oyu don't practicy you won't get good at it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

8. In brothers of the snake they did exactly that. Also, think about the enemies they face.

I thought you didn’t take Black Library as canon? You’ve done this twice now.

Oh, and you have one example of Astartes fighting in a Phalanx. Now compare that to all the others who don't fight in a Phalanx.

im2randomghgh wrote:
A green tide means stepping out of the way of one ork and into the way of another. Same with nids. And Guard Mob. And kroot..

Not necessarily, such forces will not always be tightly packed.

Of ocurse you seem to assume an ork woudl be literally an inch away from another, which I find unlikely.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And even against more "dignified" opponents, and out of formation, you are fighting as a squad. Step out of the line, and you open a gap an enemy can step through. You simply cannot sidestep in combat. In duels, yes. Not in combat.

Space Marine squads are generally deployed in loose formation. There is no line. The Brothers of the Snake example is an exception rather than the rule.

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

Except that's not how they are described as well. Fists commanders Pre-Codex were noted as unimaginative and straightforward when planning and leading. It’s only when they adopted the Codex did they get more flexible.

Why don't you take the time to consider the point made before jumping to IA and repeating only those parts you seem to like ?
Look, your idea of flexibility through codex use doesn't fly. A codex is nice to standardize things, to lay down some rules to follow.
But flexibility? Depends on the Personality of the marine. Not on the book he read.

Going to expand on the single line I put there, as it seems neccessary.

Gree wrote:
IA fists

Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defences.

In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach -attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With their adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Did you even read IA or just browse over it?

>So "each Company had an identical organisation" is inflexible while codex astartes companies with identical organisation is flexible...
Maybe the point of the IF was their organization as Legion cannot be the same as an organization as chapter?
You know, chapters are small forces to intercept threats, to rapidly react where Legions were meant to conquer and to lead massive formations in lenghty crusades far away from bases.
Now provide a source that tells us the organization of the UM pre-codex. .....wait. don't. I think I should request something where you got a chance.

> the "Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative". Thats a personal trait and at worst the influence of geneseed or Primarch.
All things a codex would not change in any way or form.
IMO someone got the heritage of Dorn wrong and mistook following orders as unimaginative.
Because you can't defend very well if you can't imagine how your defenses could be overcome.
The training on a wide range of environments and battlefields was obviously cut back when the IF-Legion was ordered home to fortify the Palace.
Dorn split up his Legion according to his marines abilities.
Those who wouldn't follow the codex became BT, those able to adapt moved to CF and those he had left and who suffered from the IF typical tendency of fighting to the last and an urge to punish themselves followed him into the iron cage, to return anew.
This leads to IF in both camps, codex adherent and codex ignoring. Like I said, the IF tread on the path of eternal crusade and acting as codex chapter , but this does not mean the part who adopted the codex is more flexible than those who did not.
Are IF, CF or BT lead by unimaginative commanders ?

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Said story was written by McNeill, whose interpretation of the Codex is frankly insane. (See my example about the Codex not containing basic protocols of improvised demolitions.)

McNeill isn't writing insane interpretations. He just got IA right...Which stated UM follow it "to the letter" .
Maybe you should read the whole story?
Actual timeline: 2 officers having a different take on the codex. 1 deems it should be strict 'raw' , the other prefers it beeing used 'rai'.
HH timeline: roboute gullyman himself explains the codex he wrote is guidelines and open to interpretation.
So whats wrong with this?
Is it a problem to accept the 10 millenia inbetween may have hardend the open minded approach to the codex into a 'holy writ of the Primarch' PoV by some?
I see nothing insane .

Gree wrote:
The Codex is updated over the centuries.

Space Marine Codex, pg. 9

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Note the term guidelines. This is form the modern Marine Codex and has been reprinted multiple times in the past.

Note the term holy writ and sanctified by the Emperor.
Both terms can mislead.
And we know how easy it is to start a war based upon a text taken literally and everyone who questions this PoV declared heretic.
Basically mcneill didn't show us the codex as holy tome but advice given with best intend to be expanded upon in time.

Gree wrote:Basically McNeill assumed that strict adherence to doctrine must mean the doctrine itself must be strict.

Doctrine ? Thats IG

Basically a strict doctrine is just asking to be used in a story. What else could get a character sent off from his chapter without a real offense
to Primarch and/or Emperor ?

Gree wrote:And why would it be outdated?

IA is outdated in several places.
I am not liking it as it provided details and a take on the astartes that didn't favor a legion but presented them all.

Codex Astartes depends on the copy of it and the update cycles.
Consider the issue of keeping a 1000 chapters updated without communication guaranteed to them all the time.
The codex version used could differ and the add-ons may too.

Yes I doubt there are regular galaxy-wide updates of the codex.

[

1hadhq wrote:
Why don't you take the time to consider the point made before jumping to IA and repeating only those parts you seem to like ?

I have considered the point.

1hadhq wrote:
Look, your idea of flexibility through codex use doesn't fly. A codex is nice to standardize things, to lay down some rules to follow.
But flexibility? Depends on the Personality of the marine. Not on the book he read.

Unfortunately the actual fluff would disagree with you.

IA Fists

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react.

1hadhq wrote:
Did you even read IA or just browse over it?

I did. How does that contradict my point?

1hadhq wrote:
Maybe the point of the IF was their organization as Legion cannot be the same as an organization as chapter?

Yes, I know that. How does that contradict my point?

1hadhq wrote:
You know, chapters are small forces to intercept threats, to rapidly react where Legions were meant to conquer and to lead massive formations in lenghty crusades far away from bases.

Again, how does that contradict my point? It wont’ change anything on a tactical level.

1hadhq wrote:

> the "Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative". Thats a personal trait and at worst the influence of geneseed or Primarch.

That is a product of Pre-Heresy doctrine, not gene-influence.

1hadhq wrote:
All things a codex would not change in any way or form.

Except we have an explicit statement that is did. You are wrong.

Here, I'll post the quote again.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react.

1hadhq wrote:
Because you can't defend very well if you can't imagine how your defenses could be overcome.

They were unimaginative, not completely without imagination. But the Imdex Astartes credits their siege skills to their good planning and determination.

1hadhq wrote:
This leads to IF in both camps, codex adherent and codex ignoring.
.

No it does not, we have an explicit statement in the article that the Fists are the epitome of Codex Doctrine.

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.

Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react.

1hadhq wrote:
Like I said, the IF tread on the path of eternal crusade and acting as codex chapter , but this does not mean the part who adopted the codex is more flexible than those who did not.
.

The Imperial Fists are a Codex chapter in the entirety. Their is no part of them that does not adopt the Codex. you can be a crusading chapter and still follow the Codex closely.

1hadhq wrote:
Are IF, CF or BT lead by unimaginative commanders ?

The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists would not since they adopted the Codex Astartes. The Black Templars would be predictable in comparison.

1hadhq wrote:

McNeill isn't writing insane interpretations. He just got IA right...Which stated UM follow it "to the letter" .

No he did not, unless you are claiming that the Codex Astartes does not contain things as basic as improvised demolitions.

And no, the Ultramarines rigidly adhere to the tenants of the Codex Astartes. Considering the Codex Astartes advocates flexibility that is not a bad thing.

1hadhq wrote:
Maybe you should read the whole story?

Actual timeline: 2 officers having a different take on the codex. 1 deems it should be strict 'raw' , the other prefers it beeing used 'rai'.

No, that’s not what happened at all. It is stated quite clearly by all parties that the Codex does not have the precedent.

Something clicked in Uriel's head and he stopped.
No, it was insane, utterly insane and suicidal. But it could work. He tried to remember a precedent in the Codex Astartes,but came up with nothing. Could it be done? A frag wouldn't do it and only the assault troops had been issued with kraks.He checked his grenade dispenser. He had one breaching charge left.
(...)
'The assault troops have krak grenades. If we can attach some to one of the melta charges on the bridge supports it could setof a chain reaction with the others!'
Idaeus considered the idea for a second then shrugged. 'It's not much of a plan, but what choice do we have?'
'None.' said Uriel bluntly. Idaeus nodded and hunkered down in the sandbags, snatching out his battered vox. Hurriedly, heexplained Uriel's plan to the sergeant of the assault troopers, receiving confirmation as to its feasibility of execution.
Idaeus raised his head and locked his gaze with Uriel. 'You picked a hell of a time to start thinking outside the Codex,sergeant.'
'Better late than never, captain.'

Legends of the Space Marines

The explosives were rigged, but Techmarine Tomasin had died in the initial attack. Without his detonator mechanism, we had no way of triggering the charges to destroy the bridge. During the night, Captain Idaeus had sent our assault squads to attempt to detonate the explosives manually using krak grenades. They were unsuccessful, but the principle was sound.”
“I’m sorry, Captain Ventris, I don’t understand,” said Sicarius, cocking his head to one side.
“Don’t understand what?”
“This plan of Idaeus’, it is obviously one that does not refer to the tactica of the Codex Astartes. Are you sure it was his plan?”
Uriel was about to answer that of course it was, when he was seized by a sudden memory of the frantic battle on bridge two-four. Sicarius smiled and Uriel saw how deftly he had been manoeuvred into this admission of guilt. Slowly he shook his head.
“No, it was not Captain Idaeus’ plan,” he said. “It was mine.”

Both Sicarius and Ventris state that the Codex does not have a precedent to do that. Now why would the Codex not have something as simple and basic as that? why would Guilliman not include that?

1hadhq wrote:
HH timeline: roboute gullyman himself explains the codex he wrote is guidelines and open to interpretation.

Again, written by McNeill, who has a daft interpretation of what the Codex contains.

1hadhq wrote:
Is it a problem to accept the 10 millenia inbetween may have hardend the open minded approach to the codex into a 'holy writ of the Primarch' PoV by some?

Except it being a holy writ should not affect flexibility at all. The codex is still advocating flexibility and the best possible solution for the problem.

The Ultramarines have always strictly followed the Codex. That is not a new development.

1hadhq wrote:
Note the term holy writ and sanctified by the Emperor.

How does that make the codex inflexible?

1hadhq wrote:
Basically mcneill didn't show us the codex as holy tome but advice given with best intend to be expanded upon in time.

It beign a holy tome does not change it’s flexibility.

In the Space Marine Codex the Codex is a set of organizational and tactical guidelines that the Ultramarine adhere strictly to. That does not mean the doctrine itself is strict, as McNeill suggested. If the Codex advocates flexibility and the best possible solution of things then following it strictly would be a good thing. Unfortunately McNeill does not seem to think it contains basic things like demolition protocols.

1hadhq wrote:
IA is outdated in several places.

No it is not, that is your opinion.

CpatTom wrote:The Ultramarines, with their superior understanding of military tactics, knew that Terra had enough plot armour to survive any assault by the traitors fallen to chaos, and prepared to support the worlds of men following Horus' defeat.

Gree wrote:

I have considered the point.

Proof?

Gree wrote:
Unfortunately the actual fluff would disagree with you.

The actual fluff would not.
Your interpretation of old IA articles does.

Gree wrote:
I did. How does that contradict my point?

Just have the impression you like quote-boxes too much.

Gree wrote:Yes, I know that. How does that contradict my point?

Which point?
The one consisting of repeat yourself until people stop to care for what you say?

Gree wrote:
Again, how does that contradict my point? It wont’ change anything on a tactical level.

Won't ? change?

Gree wrote:
That is a product of Pre-Heresy doctrine, not gene-influence.

Evasive maneuvers? Care to adress any post without cutting it to shreds and bland untrue statements as reply?

Gree wrote:
Except we have an explicit statement that is did. You are wrong.

Except we have just your statements and those won't become right by consistent posting of the same quote.
Until you start to understand the text you quoted.

Gree wrote:
They were unimaginative, not completely without imagination. But the Imdex Astartes credits their siege skills to their good planning and determination.

So planning without imagination?
You could take any unimaginative guard officer, alter the tactica imperialis until it is so geared to imaginative behaviour its unbelievable and indoctrinate said officer until he cannot resist to use his new doctrine and implanted behaviour and still it would depend on the person and not the book.

Gree wrote:
No it does not.

Yes it does.

Gree wrote:The Imperial Fists are a Codex chapter in the entirety. Their is no part of them that does not adopt the Codex. you can be a crusading chapter and still follow the Codex closely.

Did you even spot the difference of Imperial Fists space marine Legion and Imperial Fists chapter ?
I doubt it...

Gree wrote:
The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists would not since they adopted the Codex Astartes. The Black Templars would be predictable in comparison.

Predictable based on what exactly?
A codex?

Gree wrote:
No he did not, unless you are claiming that the Codex Astartes does not contain things as basic as improvised demolitions.

And no, the Ultramarines rigidly adhere to the tenants of the Codex Astartes. Considering the Codex Astartes advocates flexibility that is not a bad thing.

A mcneill hater?
Because thats all I see here.
Codex Astartes is in your beloved IA series of articles more of a holy writ to be followed literally than it is now.

Gree wrote:
No, that’s not what happened at all. It is stated quite clearly by all parties that the Codex does not have the precedent.

Is there another dakka ? A paralell forum ?
Since I don't know where you get this idea from as I didn't say anything about precedent.

Gree wrote:
Both Sicarius and Ventris state that the Codex does not have a precedent to do that. Now why would the Codex not have something as simple and basic as that? why would Guilliman not include that?

HH - "age of darkness" could be your friend.

OtoH codex astartes is maybe as incomplete as many other old tomes. Pages lost....

Gree wrote:
Again, written by McNeill, who has a daft interpretation of what the Codex contains.

Again, not invalidated as either any author who was part of the design team and Bl is taken as possible source or you rapidly run out of
sources as one poster may always dislike one author for different reasons.

Gree wrote:
Except it being a holy writ should not affect flexibility at all. The codex is still advocating flexibility and the best possible solution for the problem.

Have you read the codex astartes?
No?
How do you know it provides the best possible solution for a problem?

Gree wrote:
In the Space Marine Codex the Codex is a set of organizational and tactical guidelines that the Ultramarine adhere strictly to. That does not mean the doctrine itself is strict, as McNeill suggested. If the Codex advocates flexibility and the best possible solution of things then following it strictly would be a good thing. Unfortunately McNeill does not seem to think it contains basic things like demolition protocols.

The moment you keep on babbling of best possible solution is the moment you gave up on interpretation and flexibility.
Because how can you imagine a more bestest solution when the best is already available?
This creates only unimaginative minions who follow orders and doctrines like brainwashed zombies.

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
IA is outdated in several places.

No it is not, that is your opinion.

Not going to quote the whole thing ( 4 books ).
The issues of altered fluff are there for those who see them.
So best luck, keeping your blindfold on.

1hadhq wrote:

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Or the fact the Imperial Fists space Marine Legion did it both ways, provided chapters and a crusading host.
Flexibility through application and non-application of the codex at the same time.

Except that's not how they are described as well. Fists commanders Pre-Codex were noted as unimaginative and straightforward when planning and leading. It’s only when they adopted the Codex did they get more flexible.

Why don't you take the time to consider the point made before jumping to IA and repeating only those parts you seem to like ?
Look, your idea of flexibility through codex use doesn't fly. A codex is nice to standardize things, to lay down some rules to follow.
But flexibility? Depends on the Personality of the marine. Not on the book he read.

Going to expand on the single line I put there, as it seems neccessary.

Gree wrote:
IA fists

Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defences.

In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach -attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With their adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Did you even read IA or just browse over it?

>So "each Company had an identical organisation" is inflexible while codex astartes companies with identical organisation is flexible...
Maybe the point of the IF was their organization as Legion cannot be the same as an organization as chapter?
You know, chapters are small forces to intercept threats, to rapidly react where Legions were meant to conquer and to lead massive formations in lenghty crusades far away from bases.
Now provide a source that tells us the organization of the UM pre-codex. .....wait. don't. I think I should request something where you got a chance.

> the "Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative". Thats a personal trait and at worst the influence of geneseed or Primarch.
All things a codex would not change in any way or form.
IMO someone got the heritage of Dorn wrong and mistook following orders as unimaginative.
Because you can't defend very well if you can't imagine how your defenses could be overcome.
The training on a wide range of environments and battlefields was obviously cut back when the IF-Legion was ordered home to fortify the Palace.
Dorn split up his Legion according to his marines abilities.
Those who wouldn't follow the codex became BT, those able to adapt moved to CF and those he had left and who suffered from the IF typical tendency of fighting to the last and an urge to punish themselves followed him into the iron cage, to return anew.
This leads to IF in both camps, codex adherent and codex ignoring. Like I said, the IF tread on the path of eternal crusade and acting as codex chapter , but this does not mean the part who adopted the codex is more flexible than those who did not.
Are IF, CF or BT lead by unimaginative commanders ?

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The codex astartes for example, was complete and the ultramarines followed it to the letter. ( IA ), yet the HH-series had the author of said CA creating it as guidelines and open to interpretation.

Said story was written by McNeill, whose interpretation of the Codex is frankly insane. (See my example about the Codex not containing basic protocols of improvised demolitions.)

McNeill isn't writing insane interpretations. He just got IA right...Which stated UM follow it "to the letter" .
Maybe you should read the whole story?
Actual timeline: 2 officers having a different take on the codex. 1 deems it should be strict 'raw' , the other prefers it beeing used 'rai'.
HH timeline: roboute gullyman himself explains the codex he wrote is guidelines and open to interpretation.
So whats wrong with this?
Is it a problem to accept the 10 millenia inbetween may have hardend the open minded approach to the codex into a 'holy writ of the Primarch' PoV by some?
I see nothing insane .

Gree wrote:
The Codex is updated over the centuries.

Space Marine Codex, pg. 9

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Note the term guidelines. This is form the modern Marine Codex and has been reprinted multiple times in the past.

Note the term holy writ and sanctified by the Emperor.
Both terms can mislead.
And we know how easy it is to start a war based upon a text taken literally and everyone who questions this PoV declared heretic.
Basically mcneill didn't show us the codex as holy tome but advice given with best intend to be expanded upon in time.

Gree wrote:Basically McNeill assumed that strict adherence to doctrine must mean the doctrine itself must be strict.

Doctrine ? Thats IG

Basically a strict doctrine is just asking to be used in a story. What else could get a character sent off from his chapter without a real offense
to Primarch and/or Emperor ?

Gree wrote:And why would it be outdated?

IA is outdated in several places.
I am not liking it as it provided details and a take on the astartes that didn't favor a legion but presented them all.

Codex Astartes depends on the copy of it and the update cycles.
Consider the issue of keeping a 1000 chapters updated without communication guaranteed to them all the time.
The codex version used could differ and the add-ons may too.

Yes I doubt there are regular galaxy-wide updates of the codex.

TL;DR, Gree is wrong.

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

I am going to parapharase my responses with quotes from another poster on another forum that I happen to agree with in this case.

1hadhq wrote:
Proof?

My entire argument?

1hadhq wrote:
The actual fluff would not.

The Index Astartes is the actual fluff.

1hadhq wrote:
Your interpretation of old IA articles does.

It is not my interpretation but flat out explicitly stated.

1hadhq wrote:
Won't ? change?

A squad belonging to a Space Marine Chapter using the Codex Astartes will use the same tactics for clearing a building even you increased the Chapter to Legion size.

1hadhq wrote:
Evasive maneuvers? Care to adress any post without cutting it to shreds and bland untrue statements as reply?

I have already addressed your point. You have simply chosen to ignore it.

1hadhq wrote:
So planning without imagination?

That is what the Index Astartes states.

1hadhq wrote:
You could take any unimaginative guard officer, alter the tactica imperialis until it is so geared to imaginative behaviour its unbelievable and indoctrinate said officer until he cannot resist to use his new doctrine and implanted behaviour and still it would depend on the person and not the book.

And what if the book said ‘’use flexible tactics and think for yourself?’’

1hadhq wrote:
Yes it does.

Mind offering an actual argument instead of something you made up?

1hadhq wrote:
Did you even spot the difference of Imperial Fists space marine Legion and Imperial Fists chapter ?
I doubt it...

The Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion is unimaginative and is much larger than the Fists Space Mairne chapter who follows the Codex Astartes.

1hadhq wrote:
Predictable based on what exactly?
A codex?

The Templars favor close combat and specialize in it. Thus one can reasonably predict they will probably try and use close combat.

Every situation you can think of. You want to know what the White Scars, the Black Templars or the Iron Warriors will most likely do? You don't need a lot of intell for that. You want to know what a Codex Chapetr will do? You need intimate knowledge of a library full of warfare history, need to know their exact force dispositions and what they know about your force dispositions, and then have to take into account all the other details of this encounter, or rather, what the Codex commander knows about the details of this encounter. For every such detail the enemy commander evaluates differently than the Codex commander, it means a divergence in what the Codex commander might do and what the enemy commander predicts he will do.

And not only would it be easier to predict the actions of a divergent Chapter, it would also be possible to force them into an engagement where they cannot play to their strengths, and are forced to use tactics they are less adapt at. E.g. you could deny an Iron Warriors force the option to employ a static gunline, or engage Salamanders at range and pull back, forcing them to employ faster units and longer range weapons. Similarly, a White Scars force would feel less comfortable in an engagement where hit and run and mobile units are less useful. With a Codex Chapter on the other hand, you can not so easily create a situation they would be less capable to deal with.

Pitch the Black Templars against three very different odds. You are less likely to get three very different approaches. Or do the same with the Iron Warriors and three very different odds. Again, you are not as likely to get three very different approaches. But if you do the same with a Codex Chapter, they will use three entirely different approaches, each approach chosen specifically based on the odds in question, and not on the preferences of the commander or Chapter.

White Scars and Iron Warriors are focused heavily on particular doctrines, and a Wolf Lord usually has his favourite units or doctrines he almost allways employs. A Codex commander on the other hand will generally be prepared to employ all potential doctrines, but with the wide range of varying factors that inform a commander's choice of approaches, the history and preferrence of the commander can also be a deciding factor. Codex recommendations will rarely demand that one and only one approach can work, while other approaches cannot work at all. It will more likely suggest the approach that has proven to be empirically the most effective. In one situation, an armoured assault might have a 78% chance of success, while a Terminator teleport assault would have a 74% chance of success. Objectively, an armoured assault would be the approach of choice in this situation, and what the Codex normally would recommend. However, if the commander has a personal history of successfull Terminator actions, such as IF Captain Lysander perhaps, then this might modify the situation and make a Terminator assault the preferrable choice. In a situation where a Devastator defense would offer a 67% chance of success while a Terminator assault would offer only a 34% chance of success, this particular Codex commander probably wouldn't pick a Terminator assault over a Devastator defense. But there are situations where he, since he is more apt at certain approaches, would pick a different approach than another Codex commander would.

1hadhq wrote:
A mcneill hater?
Because thats all I see here.

So you can’t actually answer my argument.

1hadhq wrote:
Codex Astartes is in your beloved IA series of articles more of a holy writ to be followed literally than it is now.

Proof and quotes?

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Explicitly stated to be a guideline in Index Astartes: Codex Astartes. Said passage was reprinted from the Second Edition and reprinted in the 5th edition Codex.

1hadhq wrote:

Is there another dakka ? A paralell forum ?
Since I don't know where you get this idea from as I didn't say anything about precedent.

You responded to my statement about the demolition device. I answered you.

1hadhq wrote:
HH - "age of darkness" could be your friend.

That does not answer the question of why Guilliman, a superhuman military genius would not place something as basic as improvised demolitions in the Codex or that hundred of military thinkers throughout history that have contributed to the Codex have not noted such a precedence.

McNeill introduced a problem that did not exist in the first place. McNeill wrote them as misguided dogmatists when originally they were not. Originally the Ultramairnes were presented as one of the most successful and famous chapters in the Imperium and they were stated to ridgedly follow the Codex Astartes. One would logically assume Codex=good.

It had been canon since at least 2nd Edition, but probably even since late 1st Edition, that the Ultramarines adhere strictly to the teachings of their Primarch. McNeill is not introducing a change as in the Chapter only just now starting to stick rigidly to his teachings. That is what they have done for the past 10,000 years. It only now dawns on them that this is detrimental, and that the teachings of their Primarch will often steer them wrong. What McNeill has introduced is explicitly the notion that following the Codex suggestions will sometimes be detrimental, and he has demonstrated that with numerous contrived set pieces where the Codex Astartes will give insanely restrictive and broad advice that fails to consider the specific situation the protagonists are facing.

I have no problem with the Ultramarines strictly following the guidelines of the Codex Astartes. What I have a problem with is a sudden explanation that always strictly following the Codex Astartes might be a bad thing, and might cause a Chapter to lose when they could have otherwise won. What I am saying is that when the Codex Astartes makes an explicit suggestion, then that suggestion will be the most beneficial route, but in large parts the Codex will simply not be as specific. You will never have the exact same situation twice, so it would be daft to be overly specific. You will have very similar situations, so you can still learn from the past and make suggestions for future battles. But it is almost impossible to make "allways do X, and nothing else, ever" suggestions.

A Primarch having fought in the Great Crusade for 200 years, then having fought all over the galaxy during the Scouring, then having led a Chapter for the remaining 100 years should have known this. Any Space Marine commander of 50+ years of service should know this. The Codex cannot account for every eventuality and every combination of circumstances immaginable, and therefor can on large parts only deal with generalities or basic situations. It is part of McNeills own premise that the Codex includes specific dictates for generic issues, and/or that the Ultramarines interpete the general suggestions to be as specific. He describes a Codex Astartes to us and sets the Codex up to fail, essentially. The Codex is only needlessly restrictive, or only interpreted in such a manner, where McNeill says it is.

I would find this implausible if the Codex Astartes had been written, and was then inpterpreted, by humans who were supposed to be adapt at military matters. It outright defies my suspension of disbelief if a semi-devine military mastermind would write it in such a way, or if beings with an enhanced intellect, tooled for nothing but a life of war, would interprete it that way.

The lore had always described the Ultramarines as strictly following the Codex doctrines. McNeill has interpreted that as the Codex doctrine being strict.

McNeill does not have a good interpretation of how the Codex Astartes works. The problem is not how he writes about the Ultramarines' adherence of its tenets.The Ultramarines' strict Codex adherence has allways been their main defining characteristic. But in the recent years, Graham McNeill has started to turn that strict adherence into a bad thing. To him it means they cannot deal with new threats. It means they are predictable to someone with knowledge of the Codex. But my question is, why must it mean that? And how did the Ultramarines manage to be one of the most successful Chapters for 10,000 years if strictly following the Codex is that disadvantageous?

1hadhq wrote:
OtoH codex astartes is maybe as incomplete as many other old tomes. Pages lost....

Except the Codex Astartes would have logically been copied and distributed many times for the Second Founding. I find it hard to believe all those copies could have simultaneously lost that section.

And I find it unlikely, that Ultramarines, noted for their organization ability, would be unable to keep backup copies of the Codex.

1hadhq wrote:

Again, not invalidated as either any author who was part of the design team and Bl is taken as possible source or you rapidly run out of
sources as one poster may always dislike one author for different reasons.

You are ignoring the point The Marine Codex contradicts McNeill. Which is true?

We don’t’ know, but the space Marine Codex makes a much more intelligent explanation. Unfortunately, from McNeill's work I am getting the impression that everything that is not explicitely described in the Codex is a problem for Ultramarines. The Codex does not describe improvised explosives, so it's a problem. The Codex does not describe Tyranids, so it's a problem. The Codex does not describe fighting against a force that knows the Codex. etc. And this is merely in addition to the instances in McNeill's stories where the Codex explicitely gives terrible advice.

But wait, we know that new vehicles are accepted by the Space Marines, such as the Land Raider Crusader or the Predator Anihilator. And we know that new enemies are encountered, such as the Tau, the Necrons or the Tyranids. We are also told that the Codex is constantly amended with new battle reports and articles from military thinkers of the Imperium. How does this fit with a general objection to anything not already in the Codex as portrayed in McNeill's work?

1hadhq wrote:
How do you know it provides the best possible solution for a problem?

Why wouldn’t it? Why would the Primarchs give you bad advice.

We don’t know exactly what the Codex Astartes would contain but we can make reasonable guesses.

I don't think expecting that explicit advice from the primarch should not be counter-productive is all that unreasonable. I don't expect the Codex to have a perfect solution for everything. I just don't want it to give advice that is stupid, and only by ignoring that advice would you be able to prevail. Why would the primarchs instruct you to do detrimental things? Why would they instruct you to do things that would lose you the battle? Why would you have to go against their advice to be able to win?

Look let me put it like This:

1hadhq wrote:
The moment you keep on babbling of best possible solution is the moment you gave up on interpretation and flexibility.

How have I given up? Do you actually have an argument?

The Codex Astartes does not include the "Ultramarine way", and certainly not the "one" way. It includes doctrines and treatises from other Primarchs. Sources mention contributions from Perturabo, Jonson and Russ, and other Primarchs have likely contributed as well. It might contain treatises on mobile warfare by Khan, descriptions of efficient force deployment by Corax, guidelines on wargear maintenance by Vulkan, etc.

And the main gist of the Codex is that for each situation there is a most effective approach to deal with it.

Let's say Guilliman himself had desribed a "standard" strategy for battle, while Khan had described a "mobile" strategy and Perturabo had described a "siege" strategy. A Chapter using the Codex Astartes as its guideline could then allways choose between the standard, mobile and siege strategy in every one of their battles.


Scenario 1: An Evil Sunz Waaagh attacks a world.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: mobile


Scenario 2: Rebelling governour holing up in a fortified hive city.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: siege


Scenario 3: Dark Eldar Raiders attack several cities of a world, claiming slaves.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: standard


The extreme focus of the White Scars and the Iron Warriors has been exaggerated a bit for this example. None-the less, those forces that deviate from the Codex Astartes usually focus on a specific type of warfare, while the Codex doctrine has allways represented a balanced and all-purpose force meant to be able to apply any kind of approach.

1hadhq wrote:
Because how can you imagine a more bestest solution when the best is already available?
This creates only unimaginative minions who follow orders and doctrines like brainwashed zombies.

Why would it be? If the Codex provides the best solution but it is the commander that must put the factors together in order to figure it out.

But the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Think of it like a filter I think it is a filter of: Enemy A + position X + wargear Y = Situation AXY

The Ultramarine Commander then filters in his own stuff (morale of men, usage of PDF/Guard, availble units, ammo, experience of his own fighting this specific enemy).

This will result in a completely different tactic towards Situation AXY then any other Commander would come to. Sicarius for example, might decide to change Situation AXY into AXZ (By eliminating the HQ), and then counter AXZ. While Uriel Ventris might take AXY for granted and use a strategy to counter AXY.

1hadhq wrote:
Not going to quote the whole thing ( 4 books ).
The issues of altered fluff are there for those who see them.
So best luck, keeping your blindfold on.

So apparently you don’t’ actually have a counterpoint or argument and are content to simply ignore GW fluff.

Nice.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:TL;DR, Gree is wrong.

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

See as your lack of response to my earlier post should I assume you concede the argument?

Longest post in the history of dakka. +1 endurance my friend. However I literally cannot make sense of the whole interaction between you and 1hadhq, it is that longwinded that no one really knows where it started or where it ends. Nice to see that it hasn't descended into the usual personal attacks though, so i think you both win on the moral side.

For my sins, my question would be where do you see the Crimson Fists fitting in between the Imperial Fists and Black Templars? I think of them as rational, pragmatist's and embody the doggedness and hardiness and tactical sense of Rogal Dorn.

Gree, I won't lie, I would never bother to do more than skim that. I will leave the actual response to 1hadhq, but I do have one point to remind you of.

IA is no longer valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_%28Warhammer_40,000%29#Obsolete_Codexes

Right there, IA is under obsolete codices.

im2randomghgh wrote:Gree, I won't lie, I would never bother to do more than skim that. I will leave the actual response to 1hadhq, but I do have one point to remind you of.

IA is no longer valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_%28Warhammer_40,000%29#Obsolete_Codexes

Right there, IA is under obsolete codices.

First of all that's wikipedia. Not GW.

Second of all they mean obsolete in rules, not fluff.

And third of all it is quite fortunate then I based much of my arguments off the 5th edition Codices then.

mwnciboo wrote:For my sins, my question would be where do you see the Crimson Fists fitting in between the Imperial Fists and Black Templars? I think of them as rational, pragmatist's and embody the doggedness and hardiness and tactical sense of Rogal Dorn.

The Crimson Fists are a Codex Chapter like the Imperial Fists, so they could conduct war like them.

Earlier in this thread it was posited that we don't know if the Black Templars have produced other chapters.
Are the White Templars and or Red Templars actually their decendents or is that just the rumor that has been going around?

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Gree, I won't lie, I would never bother to do more than skim that. I will leave the actual response to 1hadhq, but I do have one point to remind you of.

IA is no longer valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_%28Warhammer_40,000%29#Obsolete_Codexes

Right there, IA is under obsolete codices.

First of all that's wikipedia. Not GW.

Second of all they mean obsolete in rules, not fluff.

And third of all it is quite fortunate then I based much of my arguments off the 5th edition Codices then.

mwnciboo wrote:For my sins, my question would be where do you see the Crimson Fists fitting in between the Imperial Fists and Black Templars? I think of them as rational, pragmatist's and embody the doggedness and hardiness and tactical sense of Rogal Dorn.

The Crimson Fists are a Codex Chapter like the Imperial Fists, so they could conduct war like them.

Actually you based an enormous chunk, easily more than half, of your argument on a single quote from IA. And whenever rules get updated, so does fluff. Otherwise fluff would never change for any faction, ever, because codices would just be little rule updates.

Also, They do not conduct war like the fists. They are not siege specialists, they are ork specialists. They are not stubborn like IF, they are practical and rational. They do not live lives based on the concept of honour alone etc.

Also, they don't have Lysander.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually you based an enormous chunk, easily more than half, of your argument on a single quote from IA.

Actually no, much of my argument comes from the codex.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And whenever rules get updated, so does fluff. Otherwise fluff would never change for any faction, ever, because codices would just be little rule updates.

Except fluff is actually not necessary to play the game. It being updated does not override anything at all. What we simply have is your opinion. And your statement still relies n the notoriously unreliable Wikipedia.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, They do not conduct war like the fists. They are not siege specialists, they are ork specialists. They are not stubborn like IF, they are practical and rational. They do not live lives based on the concept of honour alone etc.

But like the Fists they are a Codex Chapter. Crimson Fists are good and fighting orks but by and large they are a Codex Chapter. This fluff has not been changed.
IA Crimson Fists

When the Imperial Fists Legion was divided into individual chapters, those brethren of a more moderate nature became the Crimson Fists - where many of their former brethren in the legion railed against the changes wrought by the implementation of the Codex Astartes, the Crimson Fists embraced them. As a result, the chapter has maintained the combat doctrine set down by Guilliman, training in all the aspects of war the Astartes may expect to undertake.

As has been noted, the Crimson Fists have, since their founding ten millennia ago, adhered rigidly to the precepts of the Codex Astartes. Following the Battle of Rynn's World, the chapter is committing all available resources into rebuilding this organisation.

The Imperial Fists like do to siege, but primarily as the epitome of a Codex Chapter. This fluff has not been changed.

Zakiriel wrote:Earlier in this thread it was posited that we don't know if the Black Templars have produced other chapters.
Are the White Templars and or Red Templars actually their decendents or is that just the rumor that has been going around?

I don't know why, and cannot remember if I read this or not, so if someone can help me out here. I think that BT never had any sucessor chapters, because they never needed too. They stormed off into the Cosmos, flicking an index finger to Roboute and his precious book and went on a Xeno smashing bender lasting 10,000 + years. They are probably the only Chapter that is nearly the size of a pre-heresy legion. I maybe totally wrong in this however.

Okay Gree the only reason I sourced to wikipedia is so that I'd have a readable source rather than simply conveying to you the knowledge that literally every other person on Dakka is familiar with.

And the fluff DOES get reworked, just like when codices are updated.

And I love how you said you were only quoting IA lightly and then proceeded to quoted it twice in the same post.

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay Gree the only reason I sourced to wikipedia is so that I'd have a readable source rather than simply conveying to you the knowledge that literally every other person on Dakka is familiar with.

So you claim to speak for the thousands of posters on Dakka then? I find that highly presumptuous.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And the fluff DOES get reworked, just like when codices are updated.

That however does not necessarily invalidate prior fluff. Of course I would note there is no fluff source at all that explicitly states that the Imperial Fists are not a close Codex chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And I love how you said you were only quoting IA lightly and then proceeded to quoted it twice in the same post.

Given the sheer length of my post? Yes, quoting it twice would be light.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay Gree the only reason I sourced to wikipedia is so that I'd have a readable source rather than simply conveying to you the knowledge that literally every other person on Dakka is familiar with.

So you claim to speak for the thousands of posters on Dakka then? I find that highly presumptuous.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And the fluff DOES get reworked, just like when codices are updated.

That however does not necessarily invalidate prior fluff. Of course I would note there is no fluff source at all that explicitly states that the Imperial Fists are not a close Codex chapter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And I love how you said you were only quoting IA lightly and then proceeded to quoted it twice in the same post.

Given the sheer length of my post? Yes, quoting it twice would be light.

Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Glad I could make myself clear.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Glad I could make myself clear.

So the, going by this you concede the points in the thread as with your PM?

For example: You know, when you claimed that Codices did not contradict codices and I pulled out a clear and obvious example of the Grey Knights Codex and the Space Marine Codex clearly contradicting one another?

The only constant in 40K lore is that everything gets contradicted at some point.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The only constant in 40K lore is that everything gets contradicted at some point.

The constant in 40k, seems to be this thread. I think we have argued around, above, below and through this subject, Fluff is changable. They wrote Squats clean out of the canon. So fluff is as changable as the weather.

mwnciboo wrote:

Zakiriel wrote:Earlier in this thread it was posited that we don't know if the Black Templars have produced other chapters.
Are the White Templars and or Red Templars actually their decendents or is that just the rumor that has been going around?

I don't know why, and cannot remember if I read this or not, so if someone can help me out here. I think that BT never had any sucessor chapters, because they never needed too. They stormed off into the Cosmos, flicking an index finger to Roboute and his precious book and went on a Xeno smashing bender lasting 10,000 + years. They are probably the only Chapter that is nearly the size of a pre-heresy legion. I maybe totally wrong in this however.

Correct. BT don't start successors they just start another crusade to fit the brothers in.
Their duty is to keep the Crusade going and in this they follow the original purpose of the astartes.
They don't care for CA. Enabled them to play a rather big part in the end of the Apostasy, the war at Armageddon etc etc.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The only constant in 40K lore is that everything gets contradicted at some point.

mwnciboo wrote:Longest post in the history of dakka. +1 endurance my friend. However I literally cannot make sense of the whole interaction between you and 1hadhq, it is that longwinded that no one really knows where it started or where it ends. Nice to see that it hasn't descended into the usual personal attacks though, so i think you both win on the moral side.

Just wait where this goes...

Gree wrote:I am going to parapharase my responses with quotes from another poster on another forum that I happen to agree with in this case.

Dakka is not enough for you?
I accept any post, you don't need a ultra-perfect response when talking to me.

Gree wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Proof?

My entire argument?

Not convinced.
I'd like to see something substantial, not just the same quote again and again.

Gree wrote:
The Index Astartes is the actual fluff.

Its from 3rd edition, its 6-9 years old.
Parts are no longer true.
Every Legion/chapter with a actual codex and everything pictured differently in the HH series for example shows this fact.
Even the traitors could run on a different "history" when GW returns to them in their release cycle.

If you need an example, look up the gathering after the scouring, when the suriving loyal Primarchs decided to adopt the codex or not.
Actual fluff points to Ferrus Manus dead at this time, IA still lists him as part of that gathering.

Gree wrote:
It is not my interpretation but flat out explicitly stated.

Flat out is all nice for vehicles, but thats it.
Explicitly stated?
What you are running on, is singular lines in material from 2 editions back.
Consider fluff not used in newer products as "unused" or worse, "dropped".

Gree wrote:
A squad belonging to a Space Marine Chapter using the Codex Astartes will use the same tactics for clearing a building even you increased the Chapter to Legion size.

Not really. The squad of the Legio may have thousands of marines alongside, the chapter based squad may be alone.
There is a difference in tactics, when combined forces go to war or when marines are used as small detachments.
After the heresy, space marines got different duties.
So to say the tactics of the Legions who could call upon the mechanicum and imperial army are the same as the post heresy chapters is
incorrect.

The chapters are the interceptors of the IoM. The Legion had to reconquer the Galaxy and attached mechanicum and imperial army elements. Chapters cannot order the mechanicum or imperial guard around as they lack the command given by the emperor to his Primarchs and thus to his space marine legions.

If you compare tactics on squad level, you may find some are the same as those in M2. So if 38.000 years passed, why should this codex have any right to claim this tactic as its own teaching? No credit to the real and most likely long dead source?
IF xenos use the same tactic as humans, do they adhere to this codex too?

Gree wrote:
I have already addressed your point. You have simply chosen to ignore it.

No. There was nothing I could ignore.
Maybe give me at least something I could ignore before you claim I did.

Gree wrote:
That is what the Index Astartes states.

Its not.

Gree wrote:
And what if the book said ‘’use flexible tactics and think for yourself?’’

Nobody needs that book if thats its content.

Gree wrote:
Mind offering an actual argument instead of something you made up?

Mind reading what you wrote instead of interpreting things into IA which are not there?
I don't have to make up anything. Why should I ?
The background is not covered in some sort of "fog of war". Just because you deem to repeat yourself and can't hear anyone above that noise doesn't mean the content of other posts is made up.

Gree wrote:
The Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion is unimaginative and is much larger than the Fists Space Mairne chapter who follows the Codex Astartes.

The whole legion is now unimaginative?
I am pretty sure a lot of GW's writers are unimaginative, but to call GW unimaginative would do a disservice to those who are not.
So why is it now the whole Legion of tens of thousands of space marines and its Primarch who are called unimaginative in this manner?

Gree wrote:
The Templars favor close combat and specialize in it. Thus one can reasonably predict they will probably try and use close combat.

To reasonably predict is to follow the uncertainity of an eldar vision in your case.
Everyone favors CC in 40k. Thats why everyone carries some sort of beatstick.
Do swords and pointy sticks make sense? No they don't as you should be able to use those shooty armament that is so common in 40k.

One should predict they would hate that witch and try to end its existance if one was interested to have a point.
If I had to command BT, I would be more than pleased to face an easy to delude tactical fool who belives a reputation of CC guarantees bets are easy won.

Gree wrote:You want to know what the White Scars, the Black Templars or the Iron Warriors will most likely do? You don't need a lot of intell for that.

Hi victim of the WS, BT and IW.
Was a pleasure to watch you falling for this old mistake.

Gree wrote:
You want to know what a Codex Chapetr will do? You need intimate knowledge of a library full of warfare history, need to know their exact force dispositions and what they know about your force dispositions, and then have to take into account all the other details of this encounter, or rather, what the Codex commander knows about the details of this encounter. For every such detail the enemy commander evaluates differently than the Codex commander, it means a divergence in what the Codex commander might do and what the enemy commander predicts he will do.

I need either an eldar farseer or to take the initiative and have them fight on MY terms.
Not so hard to do. Codex chapters have been defeated regularly, so prediction of their actions isn't as impossible as you may think.

Plus your falling into your own trap again.
No encounter is the same, so using a codex would not provide a solution, just data to build your own plans.
And were back to the importance of the person, not the book.

Gree wrote:And not only would it be easier to predict the actions of a divergent Chapter, it would also be possible to force them into an engagement where they cannot play to their strengths, and are forced to use tactics they are less adapt at.

You can fore marines into engagements they are less adapt at even if they follow this codex.

Gree wrote: E.g. you could deny an Iron Warriors force the option to employ a static gunline,

Too bad they either come as sieg fore or sit in their fortress already.
Casualities were high, to drive em out of imperial space in the scouring.
Could be codex-loving UM who had to do this. Maybe this prediction idea is as bad as it sounds?

Gree wrote:or engage Salamanders at range and pull back, forcing them to employ faster units and longer range weapons.

youre a funny one. Why should any space marine play to your tune?

Gree wrote:Similarly, a White Scars force would feel less comfortable in an engagement where hit and run and mobile units are less useful.

So if the feel uncomfortable, they won't be able to do what every space marine is able to, no matter if someone wrote a book about it?

Gree wrote: With a Codex Chapter on the other hand, you can not so easily create a situation they would be less capable to deal with.

Nonsense.
The codex creates generalists, who are mediocre at everything and good at nothing.
They deal with every situation, but they don't have the backup of the specialists.
The Emperor created 20 legions, different legions with different strengths. For a reason.

Gree wrote:Pitch the Black Templars against three very different odds. You are less likely to get three very different approaches. Or do the same with the Iron Warriors and three very different odds. Again, you are not as likely to get three very different approaches. But if you do the same with a Codex Chapter, they will use three entirely different approaches, each approach chosen specifically based on the odds in question, and not on the preferences of the commander or Chapter.

O right, now the poor commander and his chapter have again to do it "by the book", the thing you claim the codex is not meant to.
somehow, I am stuck with your crappy ideas of flexibility here, a codex chapter is still no copy of other codex chapters and lots of influence are heaped upon the marines of codex chapters as you could see if you wanted too.
This differently approach does not come from the codex, its the commander in charge, his training and the way his chapter fights as tradfitions are important to space marines. Go on ignore the changes 10 millenia and chapters scattered through the galaxy without regular contact to each other wreak upon this glorified take on the codex you have.

Gree wrote:White Scars and Iron Warriors are focused heavily on particular doctrines, and a Wolf Lord usually has his favourite units or doctrines he almost allways employs.

And?

Gree wrote:So you can’t actually answer my argument.

You have none so what should I answer there?
Maybe I am too unimaginative to think of an argument you could have had and answer to that instead....

Gree wrote:
Proof and quotes?

You have quoted the IA a hundred times and claim you don't know what I am talking about?
why don't you pull out IA and look up the UM, and the codex.?

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch.

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

So it does standardize equipment and markings. Exactly the role of codifiying.
But, as usual, the important part in bold letters isn't used as "petty and restrictive" isn't what you want to base your argument on as this contradicts your claim of flexibility.
Like the "reverence" and the "sanctification" we find there, which is also not strenghtening your claim of a different approach as the
result of such treatment is most likely to cling to it like it would be heresy to interpret it.
See , its easy to pull a few words out of a paragraph, like you did with unimaginative,,,,,

Gree wrote:
You responded to my statement about the demolition device. I answered you.

The codex states you have to have enough meltabombs at hand. To need to improvise is to fail. You shall repent...

Gree wrote:
That does not answer the question of why Guilliman, a superhuman military genius would not place something as basic as improvised demolitions in the Codex or that hundred of military thinkers throughout history that have contributed to the Codex have not noted such a precedence.

Oh it does.
Gullyman himself said the codex is a guideline. Right there in HH-AoD. There are even fake battles to test the validity of his scribblings.
I know, because i read it and this wasn't the usual ride as partially it felt like the UM are traitors.

Gree wrote:McNeill introduced a problem that did not exist in the first place. McNeill wrote them as misguided dogmatists when originally they were not. Originally the Ultramairnes were presented as one of the most successful and famous chapters in the Imperium and they were stated to ridgedly follow the Codex Astartes. One would logically assume Codex=good.

The UM lost a bit of their path, without Gullyman to guide them. Still its just a story based upon 2 opposing characters.
Codex = tool for the days to come. Its purpose was to split the power but keep the astartes standardizerd so they could fight alongside if they had to. Thus codex = good is only true if the passing time doesn't alter the views.

Gree wrote:To him it means they cannot deal with new threats. It means they are predictable to someone with knowledge of the Codex. But my question is, why must it mean that? And how did the Ultramarines manage to be one of the most successful Chapters for 10,000 years if strictly following the Codex is that disadvantageous?

It becomes a disadvantage when a codex is seen as unquestionable, a holy writ, sanctified, and this leads to a rise of accusations of defiying the primarch , the emperor and whatnot. Traditions may unite but can tie down and split too.
What happens when parts of the codex contradict each other and you cannot find out who wrote them?

Gree wrote:
Except the Codex Astartes would have logically been copied and distributed many times for the Second Founding. I find it hard to believe all those copies could have simultaneously lost that section.

And I find it unlikely, that Ultramarines, noted for their organization ability, would be unable to keep backup copies of the Codex.

The ultramarines copy could be very different from say the mortifactors copy of it. Both are sons of gullyman.
Plus, a copy error would create that problem. The master copy altered for example. Maybe nids ate a few chunks of the stored backups.

Gree wrote:

But wait, we know that new vehicles are accepted by the Space Marines, such as the Land Raider Crusader or the Predator Anihilator. And we know that new enemies are encountered, such as the Tau, the Necrons or the Tyranids. We are also told that the Codex is constantly amended with new battle reports and articles from military thinkers of the Imperium. How does this fit with a general objection to anything not already in the Codex as portrayed in McNeill's work?

Because this codex only exists virtually?
Tell me how does an author contribute to the codex?
Who prooofreads the contribuitons?
Who decides what is added?

The only way to make a codex work, is to make it a set of basic guidelines, laid out long ago and the add ons are chapter specific.
Like 40k and apoc. You can have both or just the basic ruleset.
This generates the problem of not everyone on the same page, as its nigh impossible to keep the updates of every copy in this galaxy actually. It provides a basic set tough. Like a starter set for TT.

Gree wrote:
Why wouldn’t it? Why would the Primarchs give you bad advice.

Because they are not perfect? Without flaws, no one had fallen. Some of them gave themselves bad advice.....

Gree wrote:We don’t know exactly what the Codex Astartes would contain but we can make reasonable guesses.

Gree wrote:I don't think expecting that explicit advice from the primarch should not be counter-productive is all that unreasonable. I don't expect the Codex to have a perfect solution for everything. I just don't want it to give advice that is stupid, and only by ignoring that advice would you be able to prevail. Why would the primarchs instruct you to do detrimental things? Why would they instruct you to do things that would lose you the battle? Why would you have to go against their advice to be able to win?

This must be the Alpha legions doing. Rewrote the secured master copy, to throw off the plan of gullyman.

Gree wrote:How have I given up?

Youre aware of it?

Gree wrote:And the main gist of the Codex is that for each situation there is a most effective approach to deal with it.

No. The Approach depends on factors the codex has no control of.
So either you argument is that the codex covers every specific situation or that it is mere guidelines and the specifics are for the reader to decide upon. could you please make up your mind and stick with one?

Gree wrote:Let's say Guilliman himself had desribed a "standard" strategy for battle, while Khan had described a "mobile" strategy and Perturabo had described a "siege" strategy. A Chapter using the Codex Astartes as its guideline could then allways choose between the standard, mobile and siege strategy in every one of their battles.


Scenario 1: An Evil Sunz Waaagh attacks a world.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: mobile


Scenario 2: Rebelling governour holing up in a fortified hive city.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: siege


Scenario 3: Dark Eldar Raiders attack several cities of a world, claiming slaves.

White Scars strategy: mobile

Iron Warriors strategy: siege

Ultramarines strategy: standard


The extreme focus of the White Scars and the Iron Warriors has been exaggerated a bit for this example. None-the less, those forces that deviate from the Codex Astartes usually focus on a specific type of warfare, while the Codex doctrine has allways represented a balanced and all-purpose force meant to be able to apply any kind of approach.

The UM would still be inferior on siege , mobile and whatnot compared to the specialized legions.
The reason to specialize was the gathered strength of 20 legions to draw the best suited troops from.

And your choice there is wrong. The WS would bleed the orks dry and beat them, they would just cut the head of the snake off with probably less casualties than the UM, and they would catch the DE and hunt them down.
The IW were a garrison force, thus defending already. They would weather the orks, they would blast the rebels back to hell and they would let the DE come, right into the predicted fields of death and sent them off.
The UM in this scenario would try to deal with the orks but lack the speed of the WS. They would try to raze that fortress but lack the skills of the IW and they would try to fight the DE and be outpaced.

Gree wrote:
Why would it be? If the Codex provides the best solution but it is the commander that must put the factors together in order to figure it out.

But the Codex wouldn't just state "you are fighting Dark Eldar, so do X". It would also depend on what forces the Codex Chapter and what forces the opposition has available. If the enemy has a lot of armour, use X. But if he has a lot of assault units, do Y. Of course, if your own force includes a lot of support units, you will be more apt at approach Z, while if your force includes a lot of mobile shock unit, it will be better suited to perform approach 01. The Codex is meant to take all of those factors into account, and propose an effective strategy for the commander. If he has no assault unit, he will use a different tactic. If he intends to defend the shrine, or intends to protect the governour, he will use a different tactic. If he has a personal preference for heavy units, he will use a different tactic. If the strike force includes Terminators, he will use a different tactic than if it didn't. If his strike cruiser/battle barge is fully armed, he will use a different tactic than if it was low on stocks. If the Chapter is willing to co-ordinate with other Imperial elements such as the PDF (where the Dark Angels might not do so), he will use a different tactic.

Think of it like a filter I think it is a filter of: Enemy A + position X + wargear Y = Situation AXY

The Ultramarine Commander then filters in his own stuff (morale of men, usage of PDF/Guard, availble units, ammo, experience of his own fighting this specific enemy).

This will result in a completely different tactic towards Situation AXY then any other Commander would come to. Sicarius for example, might decide to change Situation AXY into AXZ (By eliminating the HQ), and then counter AXZ. While Uriel Ventris might take AXY for granted and use a strategy to counter AXY.

Too complicated.
Does not work in the short period of time a battle occurs.
The codex use you describe there would be at best planning beforehand in orbit or at base.
But you don't need a codex to tell you how to do it after hundreds of years of service.....

Gree wrote:
So apparently you don’t’ actually have a counterpoint or argument and are content to simply ignore GW fluff.

Nice.

I don't need to counter that. It discounts itself, by sheer blindness to what people are getting at.
GW fluff is flexible. So flexible, they can squat races, alter races , drop old fluff, etc etc.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

Soul drinkers do not exist in the second founding fluff.
But otherwise I may have been to fast and missed to reread what I said. got it mixed-up..

1hadhq wrote:
Not convinced.
I'd like to see something substantial, not just the same quote again and again.

So in other words you are content to ignore GW fluff.

You are basically being argumentative to ad nausem on this point.

1hadhq wrote:
Its from 3rd edition, its 6-9 years old.

Yes and? How does that matter?

1hadhq wrote:
Parts are no longer true.
Every Legion/chapter with a actual codex and everything pictured differently in the HH series for example shows this fact.

No it does not. For the most part books are consistent with the IA.

1hadhq wrote:
If you need an example, look up the gathering after the scouring, when the suriving loyal Primarchs decided to adopt the codex or not.
Actual fluff points to Ferrus Manus dead at this time, IA still lists him as part of that gathering.

No, another interpretation of GW fluff points to Ferrus being alive at the time.

1hadhq wrote:
Consider fluff not used in newer products as "unused" or worse, "dropped".

Fortunately that is your opinion and now what GW actually says.

1hadhq wrote:
Not really. The squad of the Legio may have thousands of marines alongside, the chapter based squad may be alone.

Then obviously the tactical situation would differ.

1hadhq wrote:
So to say the tactics of the Legions who could call upon the mechanicum and imperial army are the same as the post heresy chapters is
incorrect.

Then you are comparing two different tactical situations and not the application of tactics themselves.

1hadhq wrote:
If you compare tactics on squad level, you may find some are the same as those in M2. So if 38.000 years passed, why should this codex have any right to claim this tactic as its own teaching? No credit to the real and most likely long dead source?
IF xenos use the same tactic as humans, do they adhere to this codex too?

Not sure what you are addressing here. Are you claiming the Codex must use entirely different and brand new tactics? It’s just a distillation of the best tactics that came before it.

1hadhq wrote:
No. There was nothing I could ignore.
Maybe give me at least something I could ignore before you claim I did.

So your being argumentative without an actual point then?

1hadhq wrote:
Its not.

Yes it does. IT is plain at this point you are just sticking your finger sin your ears and singing ‘’LALALALA’’

1hadhq wrote:
Mind reading what you wrote instead of interpreting things into IA which are not there?

I did read what I wrote.

1hadhq wrote:
I don't have to make up anything. Why should I ?

You made up half of the Imperial Fists being non-Codex when you have zero evidence to back that up.

1hadhq wrote:
Nobody needs that book if thats its content.

Unless of course they are a specialized chapter that favors one style of warfare over another, like the White Scars or Iron Warriors.

1hadhq wrote:
The background is not covered in some sort of "fog of war". Just because you deem to repeat yourself and can't hear anyone above that noise doesn't mean the content of other posts is made up.

Except the content of said posts consist of claims that have no support at all in the mentioned background.

1hadhq wrote:
The whole legion is now unimaginative?

Correct, that’s what’s stated. It has not bee contridicted at all.

1hadhq wrote:
I am pretty sure a lot of GW's writers are unimaginative, but to call GW unimaginative would do a disservice to those who are not.

Not sure how this relates to your point. We already have s fluff statement on this.

1hadhq wrote:
So why is it now the whole Legion of tens of thousands of space marines and its Primarch who are called unimaginative in this manner?

Because they are.

1hadhq wrote:
To reasonably predict is to follow the uncertainity of an eldar vision in your case.

Not at all, are you denying that the Black Templars favor close combat?

1hadhq wrote:
Everyone favors CC in 40k. Thats why everyone carries some sort of beatstick.

Incorrect, the Ultramarines for example, favor a balanced, flexible approach to warfare. They do not favor close combat over shooting or vice-versa. Races like the Tau and Guard obviously don't favor close combat. And if everyone favored close combat then there would be nothing special about the doctrines of the Blood Angels or Black Templars next to the Ultramarines.

1hadhq wrote:
If I had to command BT, I would be more than pleased to face an easy to delude tactical fool who belives a reputation of CC guarantees bets are easy won.

I never said it mean an easy victory. But Black Templars favor close combat. That is a fact. Logically, they will most likely used close combats tactics. They will devote more training and time to close combat than other areas of warfare.

Now Black Templars will not always use close combat, but by and far they are most likely to use close quarters combat. Unless you are denying that the Black Templars do no favor close combat?

And of course the Templar commander would have to know his foe would have intelligence on the Templar.

Codex Black Templars

The Black Templars have continued in the slyle of their founder, Sigismund, in preferring close combat to ranged warfare. Face-to-face with his enemy, a Space Marine can earn honour and respect and be sure that his foe is truly vanquished.

This is further emphastsed by the fanaticism of Black Templars battle brothers, whose righteous anger makes them impatient and headstrong. They will drive towards the foe relentlessly, their own casualties only serving to spur them on faster, hungry for vengeance on the slayers of their brethren.

So not only do they prefer close combat but they are impatient and headstrong.

1hadhq wrote:
Hi victim of the WS, BT and IW.
Was a pleasure to watch you falling for this old mistake.

So you are claiming that the White Scars favorability to hit and run tactics can never ever be predicted? That is highly presumptuous and strains logical disbelief.

Of course if said chapter chooses something that they don’t specialize in, then they will be at a disadvantage as they don’t devote enough time on it. A Black Templar would obviously devote more training to close combat rather than ranged. So if he was ever required to fight in a ranged combat, he would be deficient compared to say an Ultramarine who spends all his time learning combat equally.

1hadhq wrote:
I need either an eldar farseer or to take the initiative and have them fight on MY terms.

The latter still will not let you know about the Codex force’s compositions, the codex force’s knowledge of your forces and the Codex commander’s preferences.

1hadhq wrote:
Not so hard to do. Codex chapters have been defeated regularly, so prediction of their actions isn't as impossible as you may think.

Can you give me proof that Codex chapters are defeated regularly? If the Ultramarines are defeated regularly for the past ten thousand years then why are they one of the most famous and sucessful chapters in the Imperium?

And just because they are defeated does not mean it was the fault of the Codex or that the Codex can be predicted.

1hadhq wrote:
Plus your falling into your own trap again.
No encounter is the same, so using a codex would not provide a solution, just data to build your own plans.
And were back to the importance of the person, not the book.

What trap? Whenever have I claimed otherwise?

Using the Codex would provide a situation using the data. You just have to figure it out. It would not provide any ''one''' situation, but rather the best solutions. It is up to the commander to apply them.

And said person would not be able to figure out said situation without the Codex.

1hadhq wrote:
You can fore marines into engagements they are less adapt at even if they follow this codex.

How so if they train equally for all situations and advocate flexibility? If they are equally good at everything then how can situatiosn exist in which they are ill-suited?

1hadhq wrote:
Too bad they either come as sieg fore or sit in their fortress already.

And what if say, you hold a vital objective outside the Fortress or the Iron Warriors have to go on the attack against a mobile enemy?

1hadhq wrote:
youre a funny one. Why should any space marine play to your tune?

And how else will the Salamanders counter long-range weaponry on a fast moving foe?

1hadhq wrote:
So if the feel uncomfortable, they won't be able to do what every space marine is able to, no matter if someone wrote a book about it?

If the White Scars devote more time training and specialize in fast attacks then obviously they will be devoting less time to training for say, sieges and would have less experience at sieges.

Meanwhile a Codex Chapter would train for all situations equally.

1hadhq wrote:
Nonsense.
The codex creates generalists, who are mediocre at everything and good at nothing.
They deal with every situation, but they don't have the backup of the specialists.
The Emperor created 20 legions, different legions with different strengths. For a reason.

That still does not counter my point.

You can look at the White Scars and set up a powerful fortress around a vital objective and watch them encounter difficulty with tactics they do not favor. What if the White Scars have to fight in a boarding operation or fight in terrain that is unsuitable for bikes (Like mountainous terrain?)

You can’t do the same with the Ultramarines, who will then proceed to besiege it just fine.

1hadhq wrote:

O right, now the poor commander and his chapter have again to do it "by the book", the thing you claim the codex is not meant to.

What if the book advocates ‘’Be flexible and use whatever tactics are suited for the situation instead of overly specializing in one particular aspect of warfare’’

1hadhq wrote:
somehow, I am stuck with your crappy ideas of flexibility here, a codex chapter is still no copy of other codex chapters and lots of influence are heaped upon the marines of codex chapters as you could see if you wanted too.

Can you actually provide proof to back up your assertions instead of making up false claims?

1hadhq wrote:
This differently approach does not come from the codex, its the commander in charge, his training and the way his chapter fights as tradfitions are important to space marines. Go on ignore the changes 10 millenia and chapters scattered through the galaxy without regular contact to each other wreak upon this glorified take on the codex you have.

If a chapter makes changes to it’s tactical doctrine that counters the Codex then it obviously is no longer a Codex chapter.

And I would assume inter-chapter updates to the Codex are still possible. But I would imagine that updates to the Codex are only done when a new race or unit appears (Like the Tyranids and Necrons and that would be rare)

But to address your original point, the different approach does come from the Codex. After all, the White Scars still specialize before the Codex Astartes, same with the Imperial Fists.

1hadhq wrote:
And?

And a Codex commander won’t really have a favorite doctrine he can use.

1hadhq wrote:

You have none so what should I answer there?
Maybe I am too unimaginative to think of an argument you could have had and answer to that instead....

So again, you can’t actually answer my argument. You consistently failing to address several key points. You seem to be just argumentative here.

1hadhq wrote:
You have quoted the IA a hundred times and claim you don't know what I am talking about?
why don't you pull out IA and look up the UM, and the codex.?

I have, and it does not contradict my point. The Ultramarines words adhere to Guilliman’s words strictly. And if Guilliman’s words were evidently ‘’Maximum tactical flexibility’’ then what is the problem?

1hadhq wrote:
So it does standardize equipment and markings. Exactly the role of codifiying.

Yes, and how does that make them tactically inflexible?

1hadhq wrote:
But, as usual, the important part in bold letters isn't used as "petty and restrictive" isn't what you want to base your argument on as this contradicts your claim of flexibility.

Which is quite a good thing since said document then implies it’s not the work of a Primarch.

And now let's back off just a little bit:

"These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch."

The problem with Ultramarine lore is that the exact nature of the Codex is rarely described, and Ultramarine doctrine is only briefly described as "they follow the Codex to the letter".
So what if the venerated Admiral Kerfuffle had been honoured in 951.M41 to have his battle report and extensive analysis implemented into the Codex Astartes? That was only 48 years ago. Would the Ultramarines feel bound to follow all of Admiral Kerfuffle's suggestions to the letter, as they would follow the texts of their Primarch? If you just took the brief description of "the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter", then you would probably say yes. But if you thought about it for a minute, it would probably seem a little odd to you. Perhaps all those countless battle reports and analyses that have been added over the past millennia aren't seen as mandatory, and merely serve to educate? Perhaps, as I would assume, the Codex contains the "doctrines", which had largely been established in M31 and include the tactics of the Primarchs, and are only rarely added to when a new threat such as the Tyranids are encountered. And then it contains the "battle reports", which have been added from all kinds of sources (not just Astartes, but also Guard and Navy), and are meant to grant the Marines insight into encountered foes, and examples of tactics that worked well, or not so well. So when the description states that they "follow the Codex to the letter", that refers to the combat doctrines, as set up by Roboute Guilliman, and composed of the best tactics of all the Primarchs, but not so much that they feel the need to follow every general or admiral's advice he may have given in his battle reports, no matter how gifted or venerated that general or admiral had been (after all, his treatise had been included in the Codex

1hadhq wrote:
Like the "reverence" and the "sanctification" we find there, which is also not strenghtening your claim of a different approach as the
result of such treatment is most likely to cling to it like it would be heresy to interpret it.
See , its easy to pull a few words out of a paragraph, like you did with unimaginative,,,,,

And if the book said ‘’be flexible and here is pieces of advice that works best. It’s up to you to use them correctly’’ then revering it and sanctifying it would not make you tactically inflexible.

If the content of the Codex was counterproductive and restrictive and a step-by-step guide then you would have a point, but why would Guilliman create something as obviously daft as that?

1hadhq wrote:
The codex states you have to have enough meltabombs at hand. To need to improvise is to fail. You shall repent...

What are you talking about? We’ve already established that the Codex does not mention anything at all in that particular instance. This is another example of you making things up.
But to address your other point, why would providing fail? If the Codex contains nothing on the subject, then one cannot go against what does not exist. It is only McNeill’s invention that they cannot go outside the Codex.

1hadhq wrote:
Oh it does.
Gullyman himself said the codex is a guideline. Right there in HH-AoD. There are even fake battles to test the validity of his scribblings.

Except said passage is written by Graham McNeill who has a daft view of the Codex. One of his short stories for example has the Codex contain nothing on improvised explosives.
This also raises another question of why Guilliman would not add that.

Plus if Guilliman said he wanted it to be a guide then why would be not print boldly and clearly in the Codex ‘’This is intended to be a guide not a strict rulebook?’’
Yet evidently he has not.

1hadhq wrote:
The UM lost a bit of their path, without Gullyman to guide them. Still its just a story based upon 2 opposing characters.

But however that is not the Ultramarines original depiction as I stated. That is again, McNeill’s invention.

1hadhq wrote:
Codex = tool for the days to come. Its purpose was to split the power but keep the astartes standardizerd so they could fight alongside if they had to. Thus codex = good is only true if the passing time doesn't alter the views.

That is why the Codex is updated with new situations, the present parts of the Codex would still be valid, unless different factors called for different situations, which then would not be a failing of the Codex.

I have no objection to the facts that the Codex cannot cover everything and sometimes must be updated. I do have an objection to the concept of the codex giving you bad advice. Why would Guilliman give you bad advice?

1hadhq wrote:
It becomes a disadvantage when a codex is seen as unquestionable, a holy writ, sanctified, and this leads to a rise of accusations of defiying the primarch , the emperor and whatnot. Traditions may unite but can tie down and split too.

Then why are the Ultramarines stated to be one of the most successful and famous Astartes chapters if said Codex is easily predictable? Your logic makes no sense, why would Guilliman write a book like that?

1hadhq wrote:
What happens when parts of the codex contradict each other and you cannot find out who wrote them?

Then fortunately we would have multiple backup copies for such a situation.

1hadhq wrote:
The ultramarines copy could be very different from say the mortifactors copy of it. Both are sons of gullyman.

Why would it be different?

And did't the Mortifactors state they are no longer a strict Codex chapter?

1hadhq wrote:
Plus, a copy error would create that problem. The master copy altered for example. Maybe nids ate a few chunks of the stored backups.

And why would the master copy be altered? And if you have many backups then you should be able to easily spot said changes. And if the Codex was copied across the galaxy for use by most Astartes chapter then the Tyranids could not possibly eat all of the backups. Not to mention the Tyranids never actually penetrated the Fortress of Hera itself.

1hadhq wrote:
Because this codex only exists virtually?

Proof?

1hadhq wrote:
Tell me how does an author contribute to the codex?
Who prooofreads the contribuitons?
Who decides what is added?

We don’t know. But we do know things are added to the Codex and it is updated.

I would reasonably assume that the Ultramarines and the oldest and most famous Astartes chapters would get together and discuss new addition to the Codex Astartes and proof read it.

Like this example

Index Astartes: Beasts of Steel

The Liber Proditor Armorum, a treatise written in 812.M39 by Techmarine Suprema Lysol Blane of the Imperial Fists Chapter, contains many startling insights into the Traitor Legions' use of armoured vehicles.

.........

Blane's work was to be integrated into the Codex Astartes, but upon reviewing the data the Iron Fathers of the Iron Hands Chapter objected strongly enough that the notion was set aside. Many point out that the Iron Hands share the Iron Warriors' practice of cybernetic enhancement, believing the Chapter was protecting its own interests in suppressing the information. The Iron Hands insisted they wished merely to protect the Adeptus Astartes from the consequences of the information falling into the wrong hands.

1hadhq wrote:
The only way to make a codex work, is to make it a set of basic guidelines, laid out long ago and the add ons are chapter specific.
Like 40k and apoc. You can have both or just the basic ruleset.
This generates the problem of not everyone on the same page, as its nigh impossible to keep the updates of every copy in this galaxy actually. It provides a basic set tough. Like a starter set for TT.

And if everybody important meets together and informs the updates to the Codex then what?

But then if an Astartes chapter is operating with an outdated copy of the Codex, then that is not necessarily a failing of the Codex. If they run into a threat that there Codex does not cover, then that is not a failing of the Codex as it cannot present anything advice to counter it and one cannot go against it.

1hadhq wrote:
Because they are not perfect? Without flaws, no one had fallen. Some of them gave themselves bad advice.....

Why would superhuman military geniuses who fought for two hundred years of war give you explicitly bad advice? I can see them giving advice that may no longer apply, but that would be a changing factor and not a fault of the codex solution.

Why would Guilliman write a step-by-step book and forget to tell his sons they are only guidelines?

1hadhq wrote:
This must be the Alpha legions doing. Rewrote the secured master copy, to throw off the plan of gullyman.

And if the master copy has been copied hundreds of thousands of times before…like say at the Second Founding? And I would assume the codex chapters would note any changes to the master copy.

1hadhq wrote:
Youre aware of it?

Aware of what?

1hadhq wrote:
No. The Approach depends on factors the codex has no control of.

No, the Codex approach would be to recognize the factors and compile a solution in response. The Codex cannot tell you how exactly your enemies will fight (Although it can tell you how they will most likely fight)

1hadhq wrote:
So either you argument is that the codex covers every specific situation or that it is mere guidelines and the specifics are for the reader to decide upon. could you please make up your mind and stick with one?

I never argued the former.

What I am arguing if that the Codex would cover most situations as it’s guides are not too specific as you can obviously never have the same exact situation twice. If the Codec Chapter urns into a problem that the Codex does not cover then the Codex cannot give you bad advice since it contains nothing on the subject.

1hadhq wrote:
The UM would still be inferior on siege , mobile and whatnot compared to the specialized legions.

Correct, but they would be superior at the weaknesses of each Legion. You can’t really force the Ultramarines into an unfavorable situation like you can the White Scars and Iron Warriors.

1hadhq wrote:
The reason to specialize was the gathered strength of 20 legions to draw the best suited troops from.

And what if those individual Legions have to operate on their own in unfavorable situations?

1hadhq wrote:
And your choice there is wrong. The WS would bleed the orks dry and beat them,

But the Iron Warriors would have hard time dealing with a mobile opponent.

1hadhq wrote:
they would just cut the head of the snake off with probably less casualties than the UM,

And what if the head of the snake is heavily fortified in a siege situation that the White Scars are unfamiliar with?

1hadhq wrote:
and they would catch the DE and hunt them down.

How would they catch opponents with faster vehicles than they are? What if the White Scars are required to hold a strategic objective or defend a fortress? What if the White Scars are requird to fight in terrain that weather bikes useless like a mountain?

1hadhq wrote:
The IW were a garrison force, thus defending already.

And what if in situations they are required to go on the assault? Say when fighting a mobile foe or a foe that holds a strategic object far away from their forces?

1hadhq wrote:
The IW were a garrison force, thus defending already. They would weather the orks, they would blast the rebels back to hell and they would let the DE come, right into the predicted fields of death and sent them off.

And why would the Dark Eldar charge right into heavily fortified defenses that are the opposite of their usual mobile tactics? Why would they not just ignore the Iron Warriors and use their superior mobility to take slaves instead from places the Iron Warriors have not fortified? Why would the Dark Eldar engage in a protracted siege?

1hadhq wrote:
The UM in this scenario would try to deal with the orks but lack the speed of the WS. They would try to raze that fortress but lack the skills of the IW and they would try to fight the DE and be outpaced.

They would however, be able to fight the Dark Eldar better than the Iron Warriors and they would be able to deal with the rebels better than the White Scars would do in that situation.

Unless you are claiming that White Scars are better at siege warfare than Ultramarines and Iron Warriors are better at mobile warfare than the Ultramarines?

Let me put it like this with an example.

The White Scars specialize in fast attack. They devote most of their time training on mobile warfare tactics and some time in various other tactics. They favor fast attack tactics at the detriment of other tactics.

The Ultramarines devote their time to training with all forms of warfare equally. They are good with all tactics and favor none.

The White Scars would be 70% good at mobile warfare and 30% good at siege warfare.

The Ultramarines would be good at both equally.

Now what if these forces are needed to take a vital objective that is located in mountainous terrain, thus making it totally unsuitable for bikes. The entire campaign rests on this vital objective and they must take it. The White Scars would be unable to use their favored tactics and be thrust into an unfamiliar situation. The Ultramarines would not be at a disadvantage as they train equally in all aspects of the Codex.

The White Scars would be better than the Ultramarines at mobile warfare, but at a disadvantage in all other situations. Unless you are claiming that the White Scars are just as good as the Ultramarines at mountain warfare or siege warfare despite focusing their training on specializing mobile warfare?

1hadhq wrote:
Too complicated.
Does not work in the short period of time a battle occurs.

Why would it be too complicated to a warrior who has studied the Codex for centuries and has based his training around it? Why would someone with enhanced cognitive ability and special training like a Space Marine be unable to do that?

Of course if you are claiming the codex is a step by step guide that covers every conceivable. situation than such a list would be even longer.

1hadhq wrote:
The codex use you describe there would be at best planning beforehand in orbit or at base.

Not at all.

1hadhq wrote:
But you don't need a codex to tell you how to do it after hundreds of years of service.....

But the codex would give you information from the minds of several Primarchs and hundreds of military thinkers throughout history in addition to their own experience.

1hadhq wrote:
I don't need to counter that. It discounts itself, by sheer blindness to what people are getting at.

So you are basically admitting you are ignoring GW fluff here?

Saying ''oh I don't need to counter that'' is a very poor way of sidestepping the point.

Forgive me, but you seem more concerned arguing something into ad nausem than actually contributing to a debate.

1hadhq wrote:
GW fluff is flexible. So flexible, they can squat races, alter races , drop old fluff, etc etc.

I am no arguing that. However that does not contradict my point at all.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Not that one, your most recent one. The one you took these quotes of me from.

I see, in my response prior to that I thought you were talking about my big post.

Glad I could make myself clear.

So the, going by this you concede the points in the thread as with your PM?

For example: You know, when you claimed that Codices did not contradict codices and I pulled out a clear and obvious example of the Grey Knights Codex and the Space Marine Codex clearly contradicting one another?

Did it say all the chapters were full strength? Also, you seem to fail to realize that not every single gene-seed organ in existence was inside a space marine. They can create more, especially in that era.

The mechanicus regulates enormous amounts of gene-seed. Also, if the only way to create a chapter was to use existing marines (which is ONE way) then they would be unable to create them in the 41st millenium because and entire chapter would have to be moved, which would just be a name change.

No contradiction.

im2randomghgh wrote:Did it say all the chapters were full strength?

Why would they create a bunch of chapters that are not at full strength?

Of course that does not change the fact that is says 400 chapters were created and the Marine Codex clearly shows only 30 mentioned out of the Legions. Them being a full strength is irrelevant.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, you seem to fail to realize that not every single gene-seed organ in existence was inside a space marine. They can create more, especially in that era.

Creation of a Space Marine states the creation of new geneseed from existing geneseed takes about 55 years.

But as I mentioned that is irrelevant. That does not change the fact that 400 chapters were created yet the Marine Codex showed only 30 chapters created.

Of course if they can create vast numbers of new geneseed quickly then why create a mass of understrength chapters instead of making sure the current ones were at full strength? I fhtye can create that much geneseed why were the numbers of the Imperial Fists and blood Angels not rebult quickly? Why would the Legions be stated to consist of only ten thousand men if they could make Marines that easily and quickly?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The mechanicus regulates enormous amounts of gene-seed.

As part of the Codex Astartes reforms brought about by the Second Founding. The Space Marine Codex on pg. 8 explains that such practices were set up as a result of the Second Founding, in other words at the time the Legions were beign broken up.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, if the only way to create a chapter was to use existing marines (which is ONE way) then they would be unable to create them in the 41st millenium because and entire chapter would have to be moved, which would just be a name change.

That’s all well and nice but that does not change the fact that of the Second Founding the Marine Codex only lists 30 Astartes and not 400.

Let me give you this quote. 5th Edition Codex pg. 8

Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

It clearly states that each new chapter came directly from a First Founding Chapter. And of course this also contradicts the Grey Knights Codex since the Grey Knights are stated to be a Second Founding Chapter and they are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion. (Unless you count the eight loyalists from the Traitor Legions) Their geneseed is explicitly stated to be that of the Emperor.

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Although one thing you got wrong were the reasons for the IF successor splits. Black Templars were the fanatics, IF the most loyal, Soul Drinkers the shock assault specialist, CF the rational.

Otherwise, +1!

Soul drinkers do not exist in the second founding fluff.
But otherwise I may have been to fast and missed to reread what I said. got it mixed-up..

Because they are purged by the order of the inquisiton. They are now only included as a footnote of sorts. You have to read their books in order to get their story.

Seeing your lack of response to my preivous refutation of your argument should I assume you concede the point on the Grey Knights/Marines contridiction then?

Gree wrote:Seeing your lack of response to me preivous refutation of your argument should I assume you concede the point on the Grey Knights/Marines contridiction then?

I responded to it twice.

Then you appearantly missed this post I posted a few minutes ago on pg. three at the end of the page.

im2randomghgh wrote:Did it say all the chapters were full strength?

Why would they create a bunch of chapters that are not at full strength?

Of course that does not change the fact that is says 400 chapters were created and the Marine Codex clearly shows only 30 mentioned out of the Legions. Them being a full strength is irrelevant.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, you seem to fail to realize that not every single gene-seed organ in existence was inside a space marine. They can create more, especially in that era.

Creation of a Space Marine states the creation of new geneseed from existing geneseed takes about 55 years.

But as I mentioned that is irrelevant. That does not change the fact that 400 chapters were created yet the Marine Codex showed only 30 chapters created.

Of course if they can create vast numbers of new geneseed quickly then why create a mass of understrength chapters instead of making sure the current ones were at full strength? I fhtye can create that much geneseed why were the numbers of the Imperial Fists and blood Angels not rebult quickly? Why would the Legions be stated to consist of only ten thousand men if they could make Marines that easily and quickly?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The mechanicus regulates enormous amounts of gene-seed.

As part of the Codex Astartes reforms brought about by the Second Founding. The Space Marine Codex on pg. 8 explains that such practices were set up as a result of the Second Founding, in other words at the time the Legions were beign broken up.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, if the only way to create a chapter was to use existing marines (which is ONE way) then they would be unable to create them in the 41st millenium because and entire chapter would have to be moved, which would just be a name change.

That’s all well and nice but that does not change the fact that of the Second Founding the Marine Codex only lists 30 Astartes and not 400.

Let me give you this quote. 5th Edition Codex pg. 8

Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

It clearly states that each new chapter came directly from a First Founding Chapter. And of course this also contradicts the Grey Knights Codex since the Grey Knights are stated to be a Second Founding Chapter and they are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion. (Unless you count the eight loyalists from the Traitor Legions) Their geneseed is explicitly stated to be that of the Emperor.

@ the 30 chapters vs. 400, they are obviously not going to name all 400, just the important ones.

im2randomghgh wrote:@ the 30 chapters vs. 400, they are obviously not going to name all 400, just the important ones.

And then we have a statement in the Codex of the Ultramarines dividing into only 23 Chapters but not all are named.

The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. Most of the old Legions were divided into fewer than five chapters, but the Ultramarines were divided many times. The exact number of Chapters created from the Ultramarines in uncertain, the number listed in the oldest copy of the Codex Astartes gives the total of 23 but does not name them.

So most Legions divded into less than five chapters (Some like the Salamanders did not divide at all) and the oldest records in the Imperium indicate 23 chapters for the Ultramarines.

Of course that still is a contridiction as the Grey Knights are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion.

Gree wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ the 30 chapters vs. 400, they are obviously not going to name all 400, just the important ones.

And then we have a statement in the Codex of the Ultramarines dividing into only 23 Chapters but not all are named.

The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. Most of the old Legions were divided into fewer than five chapters, but the Ultramarines were divided many times. The exact number of Chapters created from the Ultramarines in uncertain, the number listed in the oldest copy of the Codex Astartes gives the total of 23 but does not name them.

So most Legions divded into less than five chapters (Some like the Salamanders did not divide at all) and the oldest records in the Imperium indicate 23 chapters for the Ultramarines.

Of course that still is a contridiction as the Grey Knights are not derived directly from a First Founding Legion.

That's how many were divided. The ones created directly from gene-seed would be created, not divided.

Also, that would mean that the Ultrasmurfs had 23,000 marines, which means YOU contradict yourself.

im2randomghgh wrote:
That's how many were divided. The ones created directly from gene-seed would be created, not divided.

But none were created outside the Legions. Our quote is quite clear all were divided directly from the Legions.

I'll post it again.

Each of the Second Founding Chapters is derived directly from a First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same geneseed. Subsequently the new Chapter’s geneseed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

Pg. 7

If the Chapter was created from scratch then they would not be derived directly from a Legion as say the Crimson Fists or Novamarines.

Upon the Codex’s implementation, each old Legion became a chapter named for its forebear plus a number of new Chapters. These new Chapters were known as the Second Founding.

Again, the Second Founding Chapters were those that were formed from the Old Legions, not those created from scratch using their geneseed.

5th Edition Codex Space Wolves. pg 9

The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller chapters and a code was drawn up to define their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This Code was called the Codex Astartes. Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order a chapter’s size was limited to a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller chapter and continued to keep its old name, but he remaining Space Marine warriors were organized into new chapters.

The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding.

Again, only the chapters formed from the Legions were known as the Second Founding. We have absolutely no mention whatsoever of new chapters being created not from the Legions directly but from scratch as being part of the Second Founding.

I will once again point out that the Grey Knights are a Second Founding Chapter but do not derive from a First Founding Legion, thus making this statement another contridiction.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, that would mean that the Ultrasmurfs had 23,000 marines, which means YOU contradict yourself.

How so?

We know the average Legion consisted of ten thousand men, but the Ultramarines were always stated to be the largest of the Legions in the Marine Codex and they appearantly recruited much during the Scouring. If there is a contridiction then it is the Codex contridicting itself since I've drawn all my evidence from the Codex.

Of course we don't know exactly how many Ultramarines existed, but if they were over 300,000 Astartes strong then they would be larger than every other Legion both loyalist and traitor combined.

And of course the Second Founding is explicitly stated to have occurred seven years after the defeat of Horus. (Curiously though the Scouring is mentioned to have taken a decade) if apparently almost 400,000 Astartes can be raised in seven years then the Legions could have been rebuilt quickly to well past their original numbers during the Scouring. Of course if almost 400,000 Astartes can be raised in seven years, one questions why the Emperor has his Legions at a mere ten thousand men when he has centuries to make many more Astartes. Apparently according to you almost 400,000 Astartes were created in a mere seven years since the end of the Horus Heresy. So apparently in seven years the Imperium could make twice as much Astartes than the Emperor had in the Great Crusade for centuries.

I read for about 10 minutes, but the Text kept coming....

Anyway, I think the idea behind the Ultramarines Codex is that it focuses on learning from military history and the ability to apply those lessons through a flexible fighting force capable of responding with the greatest degree of success in any given situation.

The Codex creates a scientific method for the study of conflict, and teaches the art of applying those lessons on a battlefield.

Gree wrote:Their geneseed is explicitly stated to be that of the Emperor.

Codex GK? It not as clear cut as you make it out to be. "given the gift of the Emperor's mind and body" or some such nonsense, which can easily be interpreted as many different things. (their psychic resistances, unshakable faith, psyker power boosts, fancy daemon heart carving skills, varying levels of incorruptible, I'm devolving here so I will leave it at that)

CpatTom wrote:
Codex GK? It not as clear cut as you make it out to be. "given the gift of the Emperor's mind and body" or some such nonsense, which can easily be interpreted as many different things. (their psychic resistances, unshakable faith, psyker power boosts, fancy daemon heart carving skills, varying levels of incorruptible, I'm devolving here so I will leave it at that)

P.7

The Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws that had gone before, and which carried the gifts of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul.

It's pretty clear.
They were not derived from a First Founding Legion. But this contradicts the Marine Codex.

"the gifts of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul" =/= Geneseed

It may, but it doesn't say "the gifts of the Emperor’s own [Geneseed]". That's explicit an undeniable.

What would stop the group of not traitor traitor marines for being the basis for the GK geneseed (plus a lil Emp modifications so that they were as Anathema and incorruptible as the big guy).

Edit for reason I'm hair splitting: Sorry, recently had an argument with some folks on abortion who all wanted to assume things without proper clarification of terms. So, I'm being super overly picky about properly representing what is supported by evidence.

CpatTom wrote:"the gifts of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul" =/= Geneseed

It may, but it doesn't say "the gifts of the Emperor’s own [Geneseed]". That's explicit an undeniable.

What would stop the group of not traitor traitor marines for being the basis for the GK geneseed (plus a lil Emp modifications so that they were as Anathema and incorruptible as the big guy)

Because it's stated to be a brand new geneseed.

But even if it's not the Emperor's then it still does not change my point. The Grey Knights did not derive from a First Founding Chapter.

I never said it was a First Founding chapter, it wasn't, but just wanted to point out that it isn't, in fact explicitly the Emp's geneseed.

Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

Edits for spelling/readability.

CpatTom wrote:
Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

No, because it would still contain the old geneseed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grey_Album

.........not sure how that's relevant.

I consider it a brand new album. Before I had listened to it, I had already heard all of sounds that would be in the songs, but it was still brand new when I listened to the Grey Album.

CpatTom wrote:I consider it a brand new album. Before I had listened to it, I had already heard all of sounds that would be in the songs, but it was still brand new when I listened to the Grey Album.

If it existed before then it would not be brand new as parts of it would be introduced before it was made.

Then how is any geneseed brand new if it has to contain enough similar elements to be defined as geneseed?

CpatTom wrote:Then how is any geneseed brand new if it has to contain enough similar elements to be defined as geneseed?

Because obviously the geneseed of Roboute Guilliman does not contain the same genetics that Leman Russ's geneseed might have. The indivdual geneseed drawns genetic information from each Primarch to make it unique. Therefore a brand new geneseed would have none of the genetics that define each indivdual geneseed. A brand new geneseed would contain nothing from the Primarchs.

Then why call it geneseed?

CpatTom wrote:Then why call it geneseed?

Because it's geneseed. It's just not Guilliman's geneseed or Russ's geneseed as it would not contain any of their genetic markers at all.

Then how is it brand new if it has enough in common with geneseed to be called geneseed?

By the definition of brand new we are working with, it must be entirely new. It cannot produce space marines, because that geneseed already exists, and the ability to do so would make the geneseed what? New, but not brand new?

But its stated to be a brand new geneseed, so either the definition is wrong concerning what is brand new, or the source is wrong.

So, brand new must be changed to include those things that include elements of things before them, but combined in a brand new way, or with enough brand new elements.

So, the geneseed could be derived from the traitor not traitor marines.

CpatTom wrote:Then how is it brand new if it has enough in common with geneseed to be called geneseed?

Because it contains none of the Primarchs DNA?

CpatTom wrote:
By the definition of brand new we are working with, it must be entirely new.

It is.

CpatTom wrote: It cannot produce space marines, because that geneseed already exists, and the ability to do so would make the geneseed what? New, but not brand new?

It cannot produce Ultramarines or Space Wolves, but it can produce Grey Knights. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

CpatTom wrote:
But its stated to be a brand new geneseed, so either the definition is wrong concerning what is brand new, or the source is wrong.

The definition remains the same.

CpatTom wrote:
So, brand new must be changed to include those things that include elements of things before them, but combined in a brand new way, or with enough brand new elements.

Why must it be?

CpatTom wrote:
So, the geneseed could be derived from the traitor not traitor marines.

No it could not.

There are elements in the GK seed shared with the other space marine geneseed, correct? Which, by the earlier stated definition makes it not brand new, because it uses elements of something that already existed, so, if it is a brand new geneseed, then Grey Knights cannot be space marines, because they can share nothing with other space marines because their codex states they have a brand new geneseed.

CpatTom wrote:There are elements in the GK seed shared with the other space marine geneseed, correct?

No it’s a new geneseed, I already told you.

CpatTom wrote: Which, by the earlier stated definition makes it not brand new, because it uses elements of something that already existed, so, if it is a brand new geneseed, then Grey Knights cannot be space marines, because they can share nothing with other space marines because their codex states they have a brand new geneseed.

Let me rephrase it like this

They have a brand new type of geneseed.

Are you satisfied now Mr. Nitpicky?

Of course you might as well complain about Grey Knights not actualy being grey.

CpatTom wrote:I never said it was a First Founding chapter, it wasn't, but just wanted to point out that it isn't, in fact explicitly the Emp's geneseed.

Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

Edits for spelling/readability.

It's from the Emperor, it says that. It does not say anything else.

Gree wrote:

CpatTom wrote:
Mashing up a whole bunch of Legions gene seed can't be considered "brand new"?

No, because it would still contain the old geneseed.

Yeah, no.

My DNA is a mix of the DNA of my parents and ancestors, but it is 100% unique and never before seen. Same with the geneseed. Mix one and two and you get three, not one and two.

Same with mixing electrons and protons. Move them around and they become a new element, or a new molecule.

Plus, if they were made from the Emperor, I think they would be more custode-looking. That's just me though. And yes, I recognize that custodians don't have gene-seed.

So going by your lack of reply to my main point should I assume you concede the argument about the number of Second Founding Chapters?

Oh My God, can we drop this now. Index Astartes is superceeded. I have watched this develop and we are getting no where with either party.

I don't even care who is right or wrong any more.

mwnciboo wrote:Oh My God, can we drop this now. Index Astartes is superceeded. I have watched this develop and we are getting no where with either party.

I don't even care who is right or wrong any more.

Fortunately we are arguing using the 5th Edition Codices.

I am asking im2randomghgh a simple question. If the Imperium can create hundreds of thousands of new Astartes from scratch in a mere seven years then why is the Emperor running around with Legions that are only ten thousand men on average? Why were the Legions so small that they had to divide into less than five chapters if hundreds of thousands of Astartes can be created in a mere seven years?

Gree wrote:So going by your lack of reply to my main point should I assume you concede the argument about the number of Second Founding Chapters?

I responded to the other part in the other thread.

And one that did not answer me at all.

Gree wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Oh My God, can we drop this now. Index Astartes is superceeded. I have watched this develop and we are getting no where with either party.

I don't even care who is right or wrong any more.

Fortunately we are arguing using the 5th Edition Codices.

I am asking im2randomghgh a simple question. If the Imperium can create hundreds of thousands of new Astartes from scratch in a mere seven years then why is the Emperor running around with Legions that are only ten thousand men on average?

Because he isn't running around with Legions that are as small as you think. The Word Bearers are explicitly stated to be 100,000 strong, the Ultramarines are even larger. The smallest of them all was the Thousand Sons, they numbered 10,000 organized into 9 Fellowships. Essentially, your figure of 10,000 on average is either pulled out of thin air or outdated by more recent information. Considering there were thousands, maynbe tens of thousands of Crusade Fleets during the Great Crusade, each with an Astartes complement, I have no reason to doubt that the Legions were much larger than you think.

Why were the Legions so small that they had to divide into less than five chapters if hundreds of thousands of Astartes can be created in a mere seven years?

If you follow the principle that the most recent fluff overrides older fluff, then the Ultramarines could well have numbered up to 250,000 before the Heresy, as per Collected Visions. Since they incurred relatively little losses during the fighting, they retained this huge number of Astartes and actually recruited more to bolster the other depleted Legions due to their extremely large and efficient base in Ultramar. The Grey Knights codex has the number of Chapters formed during the Second Founding at 400, if these numbers are at all accurate, even under the assumption that each new Chapter contained 1000 Astartes to begin with, there really shouldn't be anything to argue about.

iproxtaco wrote:
Because he isn't running around with Legions that are as small as you think. The Word Bearers are explicitly stated to be 100,000 strong, the Ultramarines are even larger. The smallest of them all was the Thousand Sons, they numbered 10,000 organized into 9 Fellowships. Essentially, your figure of 10,000 on average is either pulled out of thin air or outdated by more recent information. Considering there were thousands, maynbe tens of thousands of Crusade Fleets during the Great Crusade, each with an Astartes complement, I have no reason to doubt that the Legions were much larger than you think.

That is however Black Library. im2randomghgh does not consider Black Library to be canon, he only considers the Codices to be canon and only the Codices published in the 5th edition. Thus I am approaching an argument on his logic. He has made a claim that the codices never contradict themselves. I have pointed out otherwise.

iproxtaco wrote:
If you follow the principle that the most recent fluff overrides older fluff, then the Ultramarines could well have numbered up to 250,000 before the Heresy, as per Collected Visions. Since they incurred relatively little losses during the fighting, they retained this huge number of Astartes and actually recruited more to bolster the other depleted Legions due to their extremely large and efficient base in Ultramar. The Grey Knights codex has the number of Chapters formed during the Second Founding at 400, if these numbers are at all accurate, even under the assumption that each new Chapter contained 1000 Astartes to begin with, there really shouldn't be anything to argue about.

Once again, Black Library is not being used in the discussion between im2randomghgh and me as by his own logic it contridicts the Codices.

Don't care. This is my response to the question, not im2randomhgh's, and I don't like the word canon in any discussion about 4ok.

iproxtaco wrote:Don't care. This is my response to the question, not im2randomhgh's, and I don't like the word canon in any discussion about 4ok.

Then your response is irrelevant as the discussion between me and him is taking place in the canon of the codices. If you don’t like im2randomhgh's opinion then go complain to him.

Has everyone been converted to my way of thinking? We can stop after that, haha.
This is the argument using maths:
x+x=2x
not
x+x=x

CpatTom wrote:Has everyone been converted to my way of thinking? We can stop after that, haha.
This is the argument using maths:
x+x=2x
not
x+x=x

Not sure how this is relevant. Me and im2randomhgh are both playing my the same rules in this dicussion. I am simply using his own logic to conduct a counterargument using Codex sources.

Gree wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Don't care. This is my response to the question, not im2randomhgh's, and I don't like the word canon in any discussion about 4ok.

Then your response is irrelevant as the discussion between me and him is taking place in the canon of the codices. If you don’t like im2randomhgh's opinion then go complain to him.

My post is 'irrelevant'? Why, because Black Library contains more information that opposes your argument and you don't want to have to deal with it? I see. If you want your own little private discussion then take it to PM's, until then you can deal with this.

Oh, and considering you're a stickler for people not responding to your arguments it's interesting to see you avoiding this one.

I was referring to the Geneseed thing, but this thread has devolved into far to many arguments.

iproxtaco wrote:
My post is 'irrelevant'?

Because we are not talking about Black Library. My opponet in the debate will not recognize Black Library as canon thus it is useless to use it. Simple as that.

iproxtaco wrote:
Why, because Black Library contains more information that opposes your argument and you don't want to have to deal with it?

Actually Black Library is the one that contains information that opposes his argument, not mine. I’m trying to make a point using im2randomhgh's logic first before I start on my main argument. But to clarify, our current discussion solely takes place in the context of the Codices. My opponent does not take Black Library as canon because it contradicts the codices, thus it is useless to even bring it up in the first place against him.

iproxtaco wrote:
If you want your own little private discussion then take it to PM's, until then you can deal with this.

I tried to actually with a PM. Im2randomhgh basically told me to shut up when I asked him and told me he would contact the mods if I tried to respond after a certain point in the discussion.

iproxtaco wrote:
Oh, and considering you're a stickler for people not responding to your arguments it's interesting to see you avoiding this one.

An odd thing to say considering I’ve had multiple chances to stay silent and let the point slip by, but I keep on bringing it up when I don’t get a response.

Gree wrote:An odd thing to say considering I’ve had multiple chances to stay silent and let the point slip by, but I keep on bringing it up when I don’t get a response.

Which is an altogether different problem in itself.

It's a discussion on the fictional background of a game of toy soldiers. Is it that important that someone you'll probably never meet in real life doesn't want to acknowledge that you might be right?


The simple fact is that the fluff of 40K is fractured and often contradictory. That's completely deliberate on the part of the GW design studio. In most cases there simply is no single, correct, canon answer, because the canon is fluid and is as much made up of make-believe propaganda as of anything resembling solid data.

Within that framework, there is plenty of room for people to have completely different opinions on, say, just how many 2nd Founding Chapters there were without the world coming to a screeching and painful sudden demise.

insaniak wrote:
It's a discussion on the fictional background of a game of toy soldiers. Is it that important that someone you'll probably never meet in real life doesn't want to acknowledge that you might be right?

Considering this is a vital point I had in my earlier discussion and I probably will have to debate this person in the future, then yes. I do consider it important.

insaniak wrote:
The simple fact is that the fluff of 40K is fractured and often contradictory. That's completely deliberate on the part of the GW design studio. In most cases there simply is no single, correct, canon answer, because the canon is fluid and is as much made up of make-believe propaganda as of anything resembling solid data.

I told him that. He told me that the codices never contradict themselves and BL is not canon no matter what I say. When I pressed the point further he basically told me to shut up in our PM conversation and he threatened to call the mods. Odd thing to do when a person brings up a point you can't really counter.

Gree wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
My post is 'irrelevant'?

Because we are not talking about Black Library. My opponet in the debate will not recognize Black Library as canon thus it is useless to use it. Simple as that.

Yeah I know, I just don't care. This is my response to the question, not his. You two can have your little discussion if you want and not include Black Library, but I'm not im2randomhgh, I'm iproxtaco answering an open question.

iproxtaco wrote:
Why, because Black Library contains more information that opposes your argument and you don't want to have to deal with it?

Actually Black Library is the one that contains information that opposes his argument, not mine. I’m trying to make a point using im2randomhgh's logic first before I start on my main argument. But to clarify, our current discussion solely takes place in the context of the Codices. My opponent does not take Black Library as canon because it contradicts the codices, thus it is useless to even bring it up in the first place against him.

Then for my sake, please, clear up the argument, I have no idea what your point is in the discussion. Do you think the number of Chapters formed at the second founding was only 30, or is that what im2randomhgh thinks?

iproxtaco wrote:
If you want your own little private discussion then take it to PM's, until then you can deal with this.

I tried to actually with a PM. Im2randomhgh basically told me to shut up when I asked him and told me he would contact the mods if I tried to respond after a certain point in the discussion.

Sounds just like something he'd do, not argue his point anymore because he has literally nothing to back it with. Have a look at the threads about the Custodes, you'll see.

iproxtaco wrote:
Oh, and considering you're a stickler for people not responding to your arguments it's interesting to see you avoiding this one.

An odd thing to say considering I’ve had multiple chances to stay silent and let the point slip by, but I keep on bringing it up when I don’t get a response.

That's my point. You don't like people avoiding the argument, but it seems like you're trying or were trying to avoid contending MY argument.

Gree wrote:

insaniak wrote:
It's a discussion on the fictional background of a game of toy soldiers. Is it that important that someone you'll probably never meet in real life doesn't want to acknowledge that you might be right?

Considering this is a vital point I had in my earlier discussion and I probably will have to debate this person in the future, then yes. I do consider it important.

insaniak wrote:
The simple fact is that the fluff of 40K is fractured and often contradictory. That's completely deliberate on the part of the GW design studio. In most cases there simply is no single, correct, canon answer, because the canon is fluid and is as much made up of make-believe propaganda as of anything resembling solid data.

I told him that. He told me that the codices never contradict themselves and BL is not canon no matter what I say. When I pressed the point further he basically told me to shut up in our PM conversation and he threatened to call the mods. Odd thing to do when a person brings up a point you can't really counter.

At the point where our conversation took up more than 4 hours of my time, I began to hate the entire internet because of it.

Plus, every time I stated a fact you called it opinion because you had no answer AT ALL other than sweeping it under the rug. Oh and btw I clicked ignore, so no, we will not be debating in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sounds just like something he'd do, not argue his point anymore because he has literally nothing to back it with. Have a look at the threads about the Custodes, you'll see.

Well I am SORRY for not wanting to read through every single WD I own to look for the article on the duel with Vlador.

Sheesh.

Not wanting to argue with a guy who thinks 1 tac squad= IG regiment is why I told him to stfu

Gree wrote:... and I probably will have to debate this person in the future, ...

Why? What exactly is forcing you to debate the fictional science fantasy background of a game of toy soldiers with some guy on the internet, aside from a need to be right?



We're all here to talk about our little game of toy soldiers. But at the point where that discussion becomes something that you have to 'win' it's time to stop and regain some perspective.

People will not always agree with you. Sometimes, that will happen even when you 'know' that you are right. Generally because they also 'know' that they are right.

Trying to force them to agree with you? That way lies madness.

Or, you could have admitted it was all made up since not you or anyone else you could be bothered to post could find a source for the claim. Besides, it's not just that, your entire argument had no basis of fact and was extraordinarily biased and relied on reasoning found in the realm of insanity.

iproxtaco wrote:

Yeah I know, I just don't care.

If you don’t care then I simply don’t care about your point. Fair enough?

iproxtaco wrote:
This is my response to the question, not his. You two can have your little discussion if you want and not include Black Library, but I'm not im2randomhgh, I'm iproxtaco answering an open question.

That’s all nice and good, unfortunately I’m not talking about Black Library in the context so its pretty irrelevant to me.

iproxtaco wrote:
Then for my sake, please, clear up the argument, I have no idea what your point is in the discussion.

My point is, as I’ve repeatedly stated, is that the Codices contradict themselves.

iproxtaco wrote:
Do you think the number of Chapters formed at the second founding was only 30, or is that what im2randomhgh thinks?

It’s not the number of chapters but whether the codices contradict themselves or not. I was comparing differnent chapter numbers in each of the Codices.

iproxtaco wrote:
That's my point. You don't like people avoiding the argument, but it seems like you're trying or were trying to avoid contending MY argument.

It’s because I’m not arguing that point at all.

im2randomghgh wrote:

At the point where our conversation took up more than 4 hours of my time, I began to hate the entire internet because of it.

It was a private PM. You did not have to respond and nobody would know.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, every time I stated a fact you called it opinion because you had no answer AT ALL other than sweeping it under the rug. Oh and btw I clicked ignore, so no, we will not be debating in the future.

No, I pointed out the Codices to contradict themselves while providing proof and you mysteriously stopped trying to argue at that moment.

So now I will take this as a concession.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Not wanting to argue with a guy who thinks 1 tac squad= IG regiment is why I told him to stfu

In order words he basically stuck his fingers in his ears and began to chant ‘’LALALALA’’ over and over again because he was presented with an uncomfortable truth.

insaniak wrote:Why? What exactly is forcing you to debate the fictional science fantasy background of a game of toy soldiers with some guy on the internet, aside from a need to be right?

So if somebody says I'm wrong I'm susposed to just nod and smile?

iproxtaco wrote:Or, you could have admitted it was all made up since not you or anyone else you could be bothered to post could find a source for the claim. Besides, it's not just that, your entire argument had no basis of fact and was extraordinarily biased and relied on reasoning found in the realm of insanity.

Are you responding to him or me?

Gree wrote:So if somebody says I'm wrong I'm susposed to just nod and smile?

If you have made your point, and the other person has refused to agree with you, what exactly do you expect to happen if you continue to state the same thing?

You can find a different way to make your point, to see if that makes a difference... but ultimately, if someone refuses to see your viewpoint, you reach a point where just restating your opinion over again serves no practical purpose.

Repetition doesn't make you any more or less 'right'. Someone disagreeing with you also doesn't make you any more or less 'right'.

insaniak wrote:

Gree wrote:So if somebody says I'm wrong I'm susposed to just nod and smile?

If you have made your point, and the other person has refused to agree with you, what exactly do you expect to happen if you continue to state the same thing?

You can find a different way to make your point, to see if that makes a difference... but ultimately, if someone refuses to see your viewpoint, you reach a point where just restating your opinion over again serves no practical purpose.

Repetition doesn't make you any more or less 'right'. Someone disagreeing with you also doesn't make you any more or less 'right'.

Except I did not get a solid answer out of my opponet. I got evasiveness from somebody who has sneered and insulted me more than once. I wanted to see if he actually had an answer or not.

Gree wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Yeah I know, I just don't care.

If you don’t care then I simply don’t care about your point. Fair enough?

Snappy, but fair enough, I'm not forcing or asking you to care, just letting you know that I really don't care that you or random have a little rule in your own little private discussion.

iproxtaco wrote:
This is my response to the question, not his. You two can have your little discussion if you want and not include Black Library, but I'm not im2randomhgh, I'm iproxtaco answering an open question.

That’s all nice and good, unfortunately I’m not talking about Black Library in the context so its pretty irrelevant to me.

Fine.

iproxtaco wrote:
Then for my sake, please, clear up the argument, I have no idea what your point is in the discussion.

My point is, as I’ve repeatedly stated, is that the Codices contradict themselves.

I see. Well then there's really no opposition to that point. Some contradict each other, and some just contradict internally too.

iproxtaco wrote:
That's my point. You don't like people avoiding the argument, but it seems like you're trying or were trying to avoid contending MY argument.

It’s because I’m not arguing that point at all.

Which I know now, thanks.

iproxtaco wrote:Or, you could have admitted it was all made up since not you or anyone else you could be bothered to post could find a source for the claim. Besides, it's not just that, your entire argument had no basis of fact and was extraordinarily biased and relied on reasoning found in the realm of insanity.

Are you responding to him or me?

Him.