Hi all,

I cannot tell if I like the necron praetorians or not. They are expensive for a jump infantry S5 AP1 weapon.
How does everyone else feel about them?

This is a rules question....how?

Sorry, I realize I did post this in the wrong place.

Moving to Tactics.

Don't bother.
Use them as conversion fodder for crypteks. The Rods of Covenants would make nice Staffs of Light I think.

I don't think they are. They lose a lot of firepower, when one of them goes down, and I really think you need to stick a Destroyer lord W/Orb with them to help maintain that.

Their biggest issue is their I2. Swinging after almost every dedicated close combat unit is pretty brutal, even with the shooting to help soften up an enemy. Just about any unit at the same points cost will just wipe the floor with them. The 1 Attack is also terrible, in any protracted combat. At least they do have Fearless, so they don't get swept.

I plan to give them a try, but on paper they are not looking worth their points cost, at all.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Don't bother.
Use them as conversion fodder for crypteks. The Rods of Covenants would make nice Staffs of Light I think.

Or any of the special staffs (e.g. Tremorstave). The codex doesn't really give any indication of how to model Cryptek gear, so yeah, I think this is the best way to go.

It looks like the Rods and Warscythes share the "rod" bit though (right?)...that would be unfortunate as we could use the extra Warscythes too.

I plan on giving them a try. The idea will be to use them with a unit of wraiths to provide a fast-moving assault group in my army. The wraiths serve to provide cover for the praetorians on the way into combat and lower enemy initiative once in an assault.

I think the praetorians and the lychguard can make some cool cryptecks with the deathmark heads.

ZombieJoe wrote:I think the praetorians and the lychguard can make some cool cryptecks with the deathmark heads.

Agreed. I think this will be my plan when I get mine in.

Actually, come to think of it I think that the praetorians are meant to be anti-termy.

Consider this - they have AP2 weapons that wound MEQs on a 3+, that also count as power weapons.
The Low ini wouldn't matter as termies generally have fists or hammers, and the power weapons would ignore their saves. Having only 1 attack wouldn't matter as termies come in small squads anyway.

Of course, the problem with this is that the praetorians don't have an invul save, meaning that if the termies are given a chance to retaliate...they're dead.

Just something to put forward.






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whigwam wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Don't bother.
Use them as conversion fodder for crypteks. The Rods of Covenants would make nice Staffs of Light I think.

Or any of the special staffs (e.g. Tremorstave). The codex doesn't really give any indication of how to model Cryptek gear, so yeah, I think this is the best way to go.

It looks like the Rods and Warscythes share the "rod" bit though (right?)...that would be unfortunate as we could use the extra Warscythes too.

Yeah I noticed that too. It is a pity, but I think most would go for the shields anyway.

Also, on the subject of terminators... not every army has them so that puts a damper on things.
They should at least get a 2+ armor save for a bit of compensation.

That's true, but it seems that we have other options to deal with Termines...Annhilation ark! And it's cheaper. If the praetorians were like, 23 points apiece then I'd concider it, but 40! Come on, that's too steep, whose going to pay 400 to have a full ten dudes? I honestly think they were only meant to be run in sets of 5.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Actually, come to think of it I think that the praetorians are meant to be anti-termy.

Consider this - they have AP2 weapons that wound MEQs on a 3+, that also count as power weapons.
The Low ini wouldn't matter as termies generally have fists or hammers, and the power weapons would ignore their saves. Having only 1 attack wouldn't matter as termies come in small squads anyway.

Of course, the problem with this is that the praetorians don't have an invul save, meaning that if the termies are given a chance to retaliate...they're dead.

Just something to put forward.

I think they're definitely "anti-Termy" but how do you get them in there? You could easily get the 6" AP2 shots and charge Terminators while playing against a poor player, but it'll be hard to pull off against anyone who sees it coming. To me they're just too expensive and too inflexible. I feel like I'd need to build a list around them to get them to work.

The only type of Termies I ever see are Paladins and TH/SS anyway, so that shot isn't going to do much good against them.

I could see them keeping up with scarabs, and assaulting the innards of transports, after they break them open. It's just at their points cost, they really need more to them. It's a shame, because they have Awesome Models, and Awesome Fluff.

whigwam wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Actually, come to think of it I think that the praetorians are meant to be anti-termy.

Consider this - they have AP2 weapons that wound MEQs on a 3+, that also count as power weapons.
The Low ini wouldn't matter as termies generally have fists or hammers, and the power weapons would ignore their saves. Having only 1 attack wouldn't matter as termies come in small squads anyway.

Of course, the problem with this is that the praetorians don't have an invul save, meaning that if the termies are given a chance to retaliate...they're dead.

Just something to put forward.

I think they're definitely "anti-Termy" but how do you get them in there? You could easily get the 6" AP2 shots and charge Terminators while playing against a poor player, but it'll be hard to pull off against anyone who sees it coming. To me they're just too expensive and too inflexible. I feel like I'd need to build a list around them to get them to work.

They are jump infantry...but yeah, it is risky.

As I said, it was a theory as to what the purpose might be. I personally don't find them that useful.

They could also be anti-vehicle with the void blades...but so are scarabs. And scarabs are a lot better than praetorians.


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Sasori wrote:The only type of Termies I ever see are Paladins and TH/SS anyway, so that shot isn't going to do much good against them.

I could see them keeping up with scarabs, and assaulting the innards of transports, after they break them open. It's just at their points cost, they really need more to them. It's a shame, because they have Awesome Models, and Awesome Fluff.

Or make the stats better. Like an extra wound, or attack, or maybe an invul.

Actually, come to think of it I think that the praetorians are meant to be anti-termy.

Consider this - they have AP2 weapons that wound MEQs on a 3+, that also count as power weapons.
The Low ini wouldn't matter as termies generally have fists or hammers, and the power weapons would ignore their saves. Having only 1 attack wouldn't matter as termies come in small squads anyway.

Of course, the problem with this is that the praetorians don't have an invul save, meaning that if the termies are given a chance to retaliate...they're dead.

Just something to put forward.

This has been in the area of my thoughts as well. Let's keep in mind that RP IS an invulnerable save for all intents and purposes, especially on a fearless model. Of course the difference being that the invulnerable save against a CC attack ahead of your initiative in CC will allow you to strike, but against things like TH/SS that shouldn't come into play.

I see these guys as a group of 5-7 that can apply a quick punch in the face to an assault unit that is threatening the heart of the army, and in this vein I think the S5 AP2 is just what the doctor ordered.

Seasori makes a good point that this role might be fulfilled slightly better by the Destroyers, but if your hurting for FA slots because you fell in love with scarabs or some other FA unit, then I see Preas filling this role quite nicely from the elites slot. Also, unlike the Destroyers, the Prae's have a decent shot of not getting rolled in CC (preferred enemy be damned!). In fact, as Kharrak's Math Hammer shows, Praes tend to hang around for awhile against anything. That ability alone should amke them worth it. As long as they stall (insert nasty assault unit here) long enough for everyone else to get distance and blow them away, job well done IMHO.

Anyway, I'm in the minority club that thinks this unit has solid potential; this was reiterated by some one else on another thread but I think Jump infantry from a non FA slot with this much punch is definitely something to be considered.

Erhm, I mentioned that if you take them, you really Need a Destroyer lord and an Orb with them, not that Destroyers fill their niche better.

These guys are terrible against TH/SS termies, and any dedicated CC unit in general.

But the more I think about it, the more ridiculous a unit these guys are for peeling MEQ and GEQ dudes off of objectives.

Consider the following group:

Destroyer Lord with Res Orb
5 Praetorians with rods

The shots alone are going to tear right through a few MEQs on the way in, and during the assault a TAC squad won't even scratch them. Hell, an AM only inflicts about a wound after RP (assuming a PF sarge). Similarly, their T5 ensures they'll eat a unit of of most non-CC oriented units alive: Necron Warriors, Fire Warriors, Termagants, TAC squads, most guard units will fall pretty hard before them.Hell, if they can get the charge on a group of Boyz, a full squad will only take out 2.5 of them.

The real liability is the 1A, which I have to believe is a fething typo for a PW-equipped 40 pt model. The GW website says 2, maybe it'll be errata'd.

Sasori wrote:Erhm, I mentioned that if you take them, you really Need a Destroyer lord and an Orb with them, not that Destroyers fill their niche better.

Sorry, speed reading the thread and then posting on memory at work Fail .

2 Attacks or change Rod of Covenant to Assault 2 or something. (Hopeless wishlisting...)

I think the best support you can give them comes from a Destroyer Lord (with a Staff of Light and Ressurection Orb) + Triarch Stalker, if the situation allowed.

Hitting a vital unit with the Stalker to grant the benefit of the Targeting Relay to a unit of Praetorians and a Destroyer Lord who are within assault range could be scary.

TL Staff of Light shots (S5 AP3 Assault 3) and five TL Rod of Covenant shots (S5 AP2 Assaul 1) plus whatever the Stalker shot them with pretty much promises to turn the target unit (small squads of elite enemy infantry) into molten slag.

But getting the set up to work seems slightly more challenging. Luckly, Praetorians and Destroyer Lords can move 12" or can opt to DS by virtue of being Jump Infantry. A Stalker could get into position by cover of Night Fighting, perhaps?

Imo, a warscythe on the d.lord is manditory. Assuming you get to run at least a little rampant on your opponent's side of the board, you'll want him to be able to pop any stray vehicles you come across if you get an opportunity.

Triarch Praetorian

__________________ WS__BS___S__T ___W ___I ____A ___Ld__Sv
__Triarch Praetorian __4 ___4 ___5 __5 ___1 ___2 ____2 ___10 __3+

This is what GW's website says their stats are...Maybe the first FAQ will revive them?

Has anyone thought about particle casters and void blades? S6 pistol...Rending....Armor stripping...Extra attack!

Could have some utility.

Well GW are wrong on that front, they only have 1A. As for the rules themselves, I'd say no, I'd rather go for the Lychguard with Dispersion Shields.

i cant believe their is 23(24) posts on this! they suck.

the best think they are good for is pairing the box with the immortal/deathmarch box to make 10 awesome cryteks and even basic necron lords.

Has anyone thought about particle casters and void blades? S6 pistol...Rending....Armor stripping...Extra attack!

Imo, they'll try to compete with scarabs and fail. The loss of their power weapons is huge.

Theorius wrote:i cant believe their is 23(24) posts on this! they suck.

the best think they are good for is pairing the box with the immortal/deathmarch box to make 10 awesome cryteks and even basic necron lords.

Yeah, wonderful models, apart from their goofy tails.

The sc2 stuck in my brain keeps on thinking "oh it'll just be patched for balance later"... but then I remembered GW doesn't work that way so much.

I'm hoping that sixth edition rules shed some light on some of the weirdness regarding necron's heavy guys. I'm really not getting it. What's five strength and toughness worth on a guy that may well never get to attack? Or one shot made only with killing various types of marines in mind that is only at range six? Isn't that like giving your gun bad initiative too?

What I think is really funny, is that 3 of these guys is essentially the old destroyer lord w/staff of light, minus a little toughness, movement options and a whole lot of initiative.

To decrease the cost of warriors and immortals and then throw in a whole host of clunky overcosted melee units sends a lot of mixed messages to me.

I'm also wondering about the assault phase in general. They made delivery really weird too with the open-topped transport being limited to one of the weakest melee units. The scythe on the other hand doesn't have any good covering mechanics to screen guys waiting patiently to get into assault (because necrons hate carrying close close combat weapons and ranged weapons at the same time) while the silly teleport mechanic rules out letting the transport get popped to charge after their turn.

So weird. I have no idea why these things are as expensive as they are. I hope they do work out flushing dudes off objectives. I guess they don't mind striking after units in cover given that they were going to anyway...

If there is anything nice to say about them, it is that with one attack, they are much more likely to let the troop unit they assaulted survive until the opponent's assault phase.

Lucre wrote:
So weird. I have no idea why these things are as expensive as they are. I hope they do work out flushing dudes off objectives. I guess they don't mind striking after units in cover given that they were going to anyway...

Really?

I find them to be almost comparable to a howling banshee exarch with an executioner.
They give up 1 WS, 1 BS, 4 I (that one hurts), 1A, and the banshee's mask.
They gain 2 T, and RP.
They trade S4 AP 5 12" shooting for S5 AP2 6" shooting, and the fleet of foot special rule for the jump infantry designation.

They cost 2 points more per model than a sergeant who would be far more expensive if eldar could take entire squads of them (yes...full 10-man squads of howling banshee exarchs would be more expensive than a single exarch with an executioner is per model. There's an opportunity cost to be paid there).

I feel they're costed about right for a *shooty army*. The math supports their cost if you don't do something stupid with them.

Maybe the GW website is correct and they'll be faq'd to A2. Somehow, I doubt it. That would be a lot of power for cheap when you're talking about a range-bubble army like necrons.

I think the power of HTH necrons is in the attached necron lord with scarabs or a cryptek with a lightning field.
This is going to nerf praetorians as they lose their jump infantry ability.

The one use I can see for them is someone who wants to go overboard with wraiths and monoliths. Run 2 or 3 monoliths and jump your opponent on one flank or the other with you jump troops. But the cost of it is going to make that a limited tactic. 730 for 3 monoliths and two minimum warrior squads then you still have to get your wraiths, praetorians, ctan and an HQ.

I would say that GW worked towards a fluffy philosophy:

they want melee units that are tough, take a hit, then use reanimation protocols to get up again. It is the opposite of alpha strike (e.g. dark eldar), basically the plan for these melee units is to roll with the first hit, then clean up with the retaliation. This is within the larger meta of powerful shooting within a 24" bubble

I remember talking to a red shirt who visited the GW design dept in the UK. He told me that, it was clear to the designers that they want to create armies that are differentiated from each other.




So you took vanilla marines... too bad you can't have a storm raven. BUT you get a thunderfire cannon.

You are sisters, and it would be great to have valkyries... too bad, they are Imperial Guard only. Obviously there is a huge exception with all the different flavours of marine army, but I see why they have made the design decisions that they have made. It is more important to differentiate from a fluff perspective, rather than balancing everything from a min/max perspective.

If you want high initiative, great alpha-strike melee... don't play Necrons. They are the slow, implacable, inevitable phalanx army, and they were designed that way.

Lucre wrote:
To decrease the cost of warriors and immortals and then throw in a whole host of clunky overcosted melee units sends a lot of mixed messages to me.

I just don't know about the praetorians. I wanna like them. I like the Lych Guard and the C'Tans but they are both really expensive, so I find myself wondering if they really will see mucha ction. Unless, 6th makes the usefull, like the DeathMarks!

I only see them as being tank hunters that don't compete in the same slot as Scarabs. S6 pistols and then S5+entropic strike+rending (with 3 attacks on the charge) should mess up most vehicles. And they're Jump Infantry, T5, with a 3+ save, and RP and Fearless to go along with it means that it's still going to take alot to down the whole squad. A small squad of 5 should be easy to get cover until they get to assault a nice chunky vehicle. I don't see them (or any of the CC necron options) being anything akin to other armies elite CC units. I wouldn't throw any of them at a full "healthy" squad of anything short of GEQs.

Somebody must proxy them in a game and at least try them. I'll do it my next game, to atleast know what they can do.

They seem like a unit designed for 6ed, if the BoK rumors hold up (rod will give them +1 attack in cc for being an assault shooting weapon, jump pack gives them an evade ability, etc).

You are also paying to have the only unit in the codex with Reanimation Protocols and fearless. That is significant considering you lose your RP rolls on a failed morale check.

If I were to use them in this edition, it'd be in conjunction with Nemesor and Obryon. They are a unit that can use his deepstrike in enemy turn shenanigans, benefit greatly from his USR granting ability and can keep up with all the teleporting that list will have going on. Otherwise I'd wait till 6ed.

winterman wrote:They seem like a unit designed for 6ed, if the BoK rumors hold up (rod will give them +1 attack in cc for being an assault shooting weapon, jump pack gives them an evade ability, etc).

You are also paying to have the only unit in the codex with Reanimation Protocols and fearless. That is significant considering you lose your RP rolls on a failed morale check.

If I were to use them in this edition, it'd be in conjunction with Nemesor and Obryon. They are a unit that can use his deepstrike in enemy turn shenanigans, benefit greatly from his USR granting ability and can keep up with all the teleporting that list will have going on. Otherwise I'd wait till 6ed.

I'd combine them with nemesor and a stalker.

TW their shooting + furious charge (JI...they WILL get the charge). That's effectively BS5+ shooting with AP2 and S6 power weapons at I3. Accompany them with some wraiths to let them absolutely go before some enemy models and increase their chances of winning the combat.

I don't have my BGB in front of me (at work)...how does mixed initiative work with a sweeping advance? Do you add the lowest I? or the majority? ...it could make a huge difference...

Theorius wrote:i cant believe their is 23(24) posts on this! they suck.

the best think they are good for is pairing the box with the immortal/deathmarch box to make 10 awesome cryteks and even basic necron lords.

I'll never understand why people have to be so negative and dismissive like this. Intelligent well paid individuals designed this unit and other intelligent individuals are having a cordial discussion on the units merits. Did you ever stop to consider that if your opinion is "they suck" that maybe, just maybe, you haven't properly extracted all of the units potential perturbations.

Or perhaps some just have negativity issues and it's better that they express them on anonymous forums then running around punching kittens.

I'll never field them, but I think I can find a use for them models as Crpyteks with Ether Lances or Crypteks/Lords w/Staff of light.

They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

They're the thoughest Jump infantry out there IMHO, but their incredibly high point cost and the fact that they have bad sinergy with the rest of the army makes them an underwhelming choice...

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect. Some actual counter arguments to the points made for them would be a great addition to this discussion.

I think peoples greatest mistake in looking at them is ignoring the resilience of 5T 3+ RP 5+. To say they are terrible just because of I2 would be like saying TH/SS units are terrible because they all strike at I1. Sure they TH/SS have one more attack but they don't have a very affective S5 AP2 shot, and they don't have 5T. They also aren't jump infantry, in fact quite the opposite they are a unit that can never sweeping advance.

Compare them point for point against other elite assault units and see what stats/abilities go up and go down. They are probably one of the toughest jump infantry units in the game. They are very comparable to bling wing in that regard.

I don't have my BGB in front of me (at work)...how does mixed initiative work with a sweeping advance? Do you add the lowest I? or the majority? ...it could make a huge difference...

I am not sure where the mixed I comes from. Bonus I from FC doesn't count for sweep. Nor does the whip.

BGB pg 40 wrote:(in regards to Sweeping Advance) Always count the Initiative value from the model’s profile without any modifiers.

However in case you were wondering for other combats, mixed I is handled like mixed WS or T in other rules, eg

In a unit with mixed Initiative characteristics, count the majority value, or the highest if there is no majority.

They're the thoughest Jump infantry out there IMHO, but their incredibly high point cost and the fact that they have bad sinergy with the rest of the army makes them an underwhelming choice...

No tougher then Destoyers (other then fearless) for the exact same points and the destroyers synergize more with the codex's shooty bent.

What about the Necron Megalith?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:What about the Necron Megalith?

What does this have to do with anything?

Arandmoor wrote:

Lucre wrote:
So weird. I have no idea why these things are as expensive as they are. I hope they do work out flushing dudes off objectives. I guess they don't mind striking after units in cover given that they were going to anyway...

Really?

I find them to be almost comparable to a howling banshee exarch with an executioner.
They give up 1 WS, 1 BS, 4 I (that one hurts), 1A, and the banshee's mask.
They gain 2 T, and RP.
They trade S4 AP 5 12" shooting for S5 AP2 6" shooting, and the fleet of foot special rule for the jump infantry designation.

They cost 2 points more per model than a sergeant who would be far more expensive if eldar could take entire squads of them (yes...full 10-man squads of howling banshee exarchs would be more expensive than a single exarch with an executioner is per model. There's an opportunity cost to be paid there).

I feel they're costed about right for a *shooty army*. The math supports their cost if you don't do something stupid with them.

Maybe the GW website is correct and they'll be faq'd to A2. Somehow, I doubt it. That would be a lot of power for cheap when you're talking about a range-bubble army like necrons.

you just compared them to howling banshee exarchs? and then listed like 11 billion things that are different and you think its a good comparison?

try...sanguinary guard...they are jump infantry and a unit like praetorians and cost the same.....

they get a 12" assault 2, str 4, ap 4 gun
a two handed master crafted power weapon (str 5 and reroll)
2 attacks
init 4
tough 4
2+ armor save
they also get the blood angel special rules and they shall know no fear

they also have cool options in the death mask, power fist and inferno pistols

Not to mention they are likely going to have Feel No Pain in the army...

Sasori wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:What about the Necron Megalith?

What does this have to do with anything?

Is The Necron Megalith worth it?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Sasori wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:What about the Necron Megalith?

What does this have to do with anything?

Is The Necron Megalith worth it?

Perhaps this is going a little too far in the trolling department. This has already been mentioned too many times and it was already old before it began.

Ignore him. He is a troll.

try...sanguinary guard...they are jump infantry and a unit like praetorians and cost the same.....

they get a 12" assault 2, str 4, ap 4 gun
a two handed master crafted power weapon (str 5 and reroll)
2 attacks
init 4
tough 4
2+ armor save
they also get the blood angel special rules and they shall know no fear

they also have cool options in the death mask, power fist and inferno pistols

Not to mention they are likely going to have Feel No Pain in the army...

I agree that is the fairest comparison. So you get -2I -1A and -1Sv for +1T and RP. I'll leave the IP's PF's and FNP to the side because your going to have to spend points on those that could also be spent on a DLord to upgrade the Praetorians for example.

I would say the Praetorins shooting attack is a clear winner, with .44 wounds/round/model against MEQ and .29 wounds/round/model against TEQ. (Versus .132 and .112 against MEQ and TEQ respectively for the Bling Wing). Bling Wing has range but I don't think that will come into play often as both tend to shoot then assault, and therefore generally be in assault range. In close combat against each other the Praes will get there RP while the Sangs will get neither the 2+ nor the FNP if it happens to be in the area.

So no charge Sangs get .5wounds/model/round (with .33 actually staying dead) then Praes get .33wounds/model/round. I would say that's pretty darn equal. Sangs get the initiative of course but Praes have the better shooting weapon.

Really with units that close it comes down to the better general and who was able to get the other into assault range more efficiently.

In summary, I just don't get how someone can label them as terrible or useless. They are very much in the neighbourhood of other elite assault units, especially jump capable ones. Especially when you consider that as Necrons your going to pay a small premium for units that shore up your weaknesses, the BA codex has no shortage of strong assault units.

winterman wrote:If I were to use them in this edition, it'd be in conjunction with Nemesor and Obryon. They are a unit that can use his deepstrike in enemy turn shenanigans, benefit greatly from his USR granting ability and can keep up with all the teleporting that list will have going on. Otherwise I'd wait till 6ed.

This was my idea as well. While I've not gotten my codex yet, all the pre- and post-release leaks have me thinking that there is much untapped, ill-considered synergy in this codex - even more so than the Eldar codex which relies on it for any competitive build. I've been wary of using Praetorians in potential lists, but I'm not going to turn my nose up at them. They're definitely not deathstar material, but throw in Obryon, Nemesor, and some Wraiths and things are looking up for them.

^ What ShadarLogoth said.

Feel No Pain isn't going to save you from Rod of Covenant hits via shooting or assault. AP2 and Power Weapon hits, howdy.

I'll put it simply: They don't have whip coils, they're I2, and don't come with grenades base. Yes, they're T5... but with only 1 wound, and costing 200 pts per squad prior to upgrades... hells and no. You can get 5 wraiths + 2 whip coils for less, they have a guarenteed 18" threat range, ignore all terrain, and best of all, they make your opponents strike at I2! Yes, they don't have power weps, but 20 str 6 rending attacks is no joke...

Zid wrote:I'll put it simply: They don't have whip coils, they're I2, and don't come with grenades base. Yes, they're T5... but with only 1 wound, and costing 200 pts per squad prior to upgrades... hells and no. You can get 5 wraiths + 2 whip coils for less, they have a guarenteed 18" threat range, ignore all terrain, and best of all, they make your opponents strike at I2! Yes, they don't have power weps, but 20 str 6 rending attacks is no joke...

Wraiths are certainly good I will not dispute that, however Wraiths compete against completely different units in the FOS. If your chock full on Scarabs/Destroyers/Tomb Blades and need some fast counter assault, I would say Praetorians are your friend (Especially if your an honourable/worthy general apparently ).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Zid wrote:I'll put it simply: They don't have whip coils, they're I2, and don't come with grenades base. Yes, they're T5... but with only 1 wound, and costing 200 pts per squad prior to upgrades... hells and no. You can get 5 wraiths + 2 whip coils for less, they have a guarenteed 18" threat range, ignore all terrain, and best of all, they make your opponents strike at I2! Yes, they don't have power weps, but 20 str 6 rending attacks is no joke...

Wraiths are certainly good I will not dispute that, however Wraiths compete against completely different units in the FOS. If your chock full on Scarabs/Destroyers/Tomb Blades and need some fast counter assault, I would say Praetorians are your friend (Especially if your an honourable/worthy general apparently ).

I would agree.... however, at 1850 (or 2k) you most likely won't be using Elites other than a Stalker or two (best elite IMO, even if hes overcosted)

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

Because they're Jump Infantry, have RP, are Fearless, are T5 with a 3+ save, have S5 AP2 ranged weapons that also double as Power Weapons (thus ignoring every FNP argument there is). With proper support, they're damn scary. It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

I'll never understand why people have to be so negative and dismissive like this. Intelligent well paid individuals designed this unit and other intelligent individuals are having a cordial discussion on the units merits. Did you ever stop to consider that if your opinion is "they suck" that maybe, just maybe, you haven't properly extracted all of the units potential perturbations.

Or perhaps some just have negativity issues and it's better that they express them on anonymous forums then running around punching kittens.

I'd agree that sometimes there are units that get dismissed by the general groupthink mentality of the internet, but there are some things so bad even the greenish noob can detect as crap. Praetorians are one of these.

Before seeing the real codex and that they do in fact have only 1 attack, I thought that they may possess more merit as a more mobile counter-assault unit. However, they really are complete trash. Even with 2 attacks, they would have issues. 40 points for a T5 3+ 1 W model isn't good to begin with. Their weapon is only 6" and in reality is a bit of a noob trap. 5 of these shooting MEQ out of cover still only kill around 3.6 models. A smart opponent is going to do their best to take these models out of coherency. In assault against MEQ with the charge, providing all 5 are in fact still alive (unlikely), they kill 3. 6 MEQ isn't bad, but again, this is in an ideal situation. They won't get that.

There are better values in the codex that do the same thing but much, much better (Wraiths).

radarbabyeater wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

Because they're Jump Infantry, have RP, are Fearless, are T5 with a 3+ save, have S5 AP2 ranged weapons that also double as Power Weapons (thus ignoring every FNP argument there is). With proper support, they're damn scary. It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

They are only bad because of the points. What they do is fine, what they cost to do it for is a bit much. Math hammer aside.


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I can only see them worth it if you take the rending sword. Then you have a unit that can pop tanks. But, honestly I'd take the wraiths if I wanted that.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:They're a good example of the axiom that every codex is required to have at least one completely terrible unit that is never worth taking.

There are plenty of posts in this thread and many others that clearly show this statement is incorrect.

None are valid at pointing out why spending points on Praetorians would ever be a better idea than spending points literally anywhere else in the codex. The do not do a single useful thing that is accomplished better elsewhere.

ORLY?

I need a fast anti assault unit and all my FA's are taken up with Scarabs and HD's for anti-tank? Where pray tell do you suggest me look for my fast anti-assault unit?

Furthermore, depending on how used, and what used against, I don't necessarily agree that Wraiths>Praetorians straight up.

I really like both units though, so it's a bit of a toss up for me, but IMHO the Rod of Covenant is a really good weapon for the purposes I would need either unit.

Did anyone factor in that the particle gun is str 6?

Meaning that they can immobilize vehicles themselves before hiting the transport with the entropic attacks.

Fair point sJGrand but I just wanted to point out

40 points for a T5 3+ 1 W model isn't good to begin with.

Kind of invalidates every Term like unit in the game doesn't it?

And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.


But I guess if anyone just absolutely hates them don't bring them, but I really think your dismissing a unit with all kinds of potential if fit within the right army. Foot Slogging Phalanxs in particular can definitely take advantage of a unit like this.

I'd like to try them out to be sure, but the different weapon load outs have vastly different uses.

The S6 particle casters have some value for deep striking behind enemy vehicle shennanigans, but obviously this option is less effective in combat particularly against MEQ.

Don't they gain an extra attack if they swap to the Particle Caster and Void Blade. But this would be more effective against low armoured targets like guard or orks. Hell a S6 pistol is nasty though.

The unit is fearless and t 5 it can contest units with ease.

radarbabyeater wrote: It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

I'm a proponent of Ogryns and Sisters of Battle. Lumping me into the internet-theory-only crowd is misinformed.

Praetorians are simply too expensive for what they do. They've got an above average strength gun and melee attack that will be ignoring all armor saves and feel no pains. They are clearly designed to kill things that usually sit on the upper tiers of toughness that are also not units made up of multiple wound models or vehicles.

The problem is there is almost no call for this in the current game.

Ask anyone how to kill Terminators. The answer will be "volume of fire". Necrons have that coming out of their ears. If it's a target that can be killed by focusing basic weapons fire on it, Necrons have an army of that walking/flying/teleporting around.

So their ideal targets are things like Tervigons, and...well, that's pretty much it. They don't have the durability to fight a serious assault critter, or enough attacks to fight a unit of anything.

All they really have going for them is speed. Lychguard would be better against any unit you're thinking Praetorians are good against. Flayed Ones potentially as well since they're only a third the cost and have 3 times as many wound if you're just trying to bully something. They're just slightly slower. Even so, this is only an advantage if we're ignoring that the rest of the army, since Monoliths, Veils, and transports will be providing other units with speed.

Show me a common scenario where Praetorians are the answer.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:
And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.

This math does not bear out. Also, remember they are not Everliving, when the unit dies, they are dead.

Theorius wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

Lucre wrote:
So weird. I have no idea why these things are as expensive as they are. I hope they do work out flushing dudes off objectives. I guess they don't mind striking after units in cover given that they were going to anyway...

Really?

I find them to be almost comparable to a howling banshee exarch with an executioner.
They give up 1 WS, 1 BS, 4 I (that one hurts), 1A, and the banshee's mask.
They gain 2 T, and RP.
They trade S4 AP 5 12" shooting for S5 AP2 6" shooting, and the fleet of foot special rule for the jump infantry designation.

They cost 2 points more per model than a sergeant who would be far more expensive if eldar could take entire squads of them (yes...full 10-man squads of howling banshee exarchs would be more expensive than a single exarch with an executioner is per model. There's an opportunity cost to be paid there).

I feel they're costed about right for a *shooty army*. The math supports their cost if you don't do something stupid with them.

Maybe the GW website is correct and they'll be faq'd to A2. Somehow, I doubt it. That would be a lot of power for cheap when you're talking about a range-bubble army like necrons.

you just compared them to howling banshee exarchs? and then listed like 11 billion things that are different and you think its a good comparison?

try...sanguinary guard...they are jump infantry and a unit like praetorians and cost the same.....

I can only draw comparisons to units i have codicies for, and i lack a ba codex unfortunately.

DarknessEternal wrote:

radarbabyeater wrote: It's getting really old listening to people mathhammer crap out on paper and pretending that's how every game works.

I'm a proponent of Ogryns and Sisters of Battle. Lumping me into the internet-theory-only crowd is misinformed.

Praetorians are simply too expensive for what they do. They've got an above average strength gun and melee attack that will be ignoring all armor saves and feel no pains. They are clearly designed to kill things that usually sit on the upper tiers of toughness that are also not units made up of multiple wound models or vehicles.

The problem is there is almost no call for this in the current game.

Ask anyone how to kill Terminators. The answer will be "volume of fire". Necrons have that coming out of their ears. If it's a target that can be killed by focusing basic weapons fire on it, Necrons have an army of that walking/flying/teleporting around.

So their ideal targets are things like Tervigons, and...well, that's pretty much it. They don't have the durability to fight a serious assault critter, or enough attacks to fight a unit of anything.

All they really have going for them is speed. Lychguard would be better against any unit you're thinking Praetorians are good against. Flayed Ones potentially as well since they're only a third the cost and have 3 times as many wound if you're just trying to bully something. They're just slightly slower. Even so, this is only an advantage if we're ignoring that the rest of the army, since Monoliths, Veils, and transports will be providing other units with speed.

Show me a common scenario where Praetorians are the answer.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:
And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.

This math does not bear out. Also, remember they are not Everliving, when the unit dies, they are dead.

Good post DE, I see what your saying now.

I see them not in terms of "I need them to kill unit X" but more "In this common situation, I need a tool that can do X."

In this case, I'm looking for a relatively fast unit that can quickly respond to an assault unit that is threatening my armies core. I agree in terms of brute punch Lychguard are my first choice, but without veil they aren't that mobile, and even with Veil they are sluggish (obviously because they can't assault the turn they use it).

In terms of manoeuvrability I think the only other viable option is Wraiths, and as I mentioned before its a bit of a toss up between the two for me. How many FA slots I need on other things will probably be the determining factor (although knowing myself I will probably just use the Praetorians just because that's the anti-conformist style I like to role with). I already have the Wraith models in spades though, so the decision is still a tough one.


On your last point, not sure how you figure that Math. RP=Invulnerable save in terms of survivability, and against non power armour T5 3+ will ALSO get the RP, T4 2+ will not, and 1/6 better chance to save is negated buy the 1/6 chance more likely to be wounded.

Against power weapons T5 RP is very similar to T4 5++, the T5 will me less wounds get through, however the 5++ saves you instantly.

Now naturally if you get wiped GG and all that (no eternal). But a good general won't throw these guys into a combat where such an outcome is likely. They are fast and precise, and I intend to use them as such.

In small games, stick a Destroyer Lord with them and team them up with a squad of Wraiths with whips. They are going to murder everything. Other than that, I can't really see a use for them. I've got a squad of 5 just in case someone thinks it's cool to run around with a solo Land Raider or DS a Trygon on my gun line. Entropic Strike works well in both situations, and you only need 1 unsaved wound to screw a large wound model over.

They'll murder in large games too. Just because your opponent will have more possible answers for that one unit doesn't mean you won't have more problems on the board to distract him.

Also, a point i think: lack of everliving is not a point against them. Only ICs get everliving.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Now naturally if you get wiped GG and all that (no eternal).

That's why the two statlines are not the same. Praetorians are going to be in small numbers because of their exorbitant cost. It will not be too big of a stretch to go from 5 to 0 in one phase.

Kind of invalidates every Term like unit in the game doesn't it?

And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.


But I guess if anyone just absolutely hates them don't bring them, but I really think your dismissing a unit with all kinds of potential if fit within the right army. Foot Slogging Phalanxs in particular can definitely take advantage of a unit like this.

T5 and 3+ is fine except for the complete lack of an invulnerable save. Even then, termies still would have an advantage at 2+ because of the ability to shake off ap3.

I don't absolutely hate them, I just don't think they do anything particularly well enough to justify their cost. They aren't hard hitting, they aren't survivable. They are a mediocre predominantly shooting unit with miniscule CC ability at 40 points a pop. They are anti MEQ and really nothing else.

They aren't the worst unit ever, but they don't seem to have a place in a balanced take all comers list or tourney list. If you are arguing they could be fun, fine. Competitive, no. I think that might be the disconnect here.

DAaddict wrote:I think the power of HTH necrons is in the attached necron lord with scarabs or a cryptek with a lightning field.
This is going to nerf praetorians as they lose their jump infantry ability.

The one use I can see for them is someone who wants to go overboard with wraiths and monoliths. Run 2 or 3 monoliths and jump your opponent on one flank or the other with you jump troops. But the cost of it is going to make that a limited tactic. 730 for 3 monoliths and two minimum warrior squads then you still have to get your wraiths, praetorians, ctan and an HQ.

You can't put a lord or cryptek with them. Only Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks and Lychguard.

Considering tactical termies are shooting units the following isnt exactly fair but I feel it must be shown.

5 preat charge 5 tac termies. 5 shots and 10 cc attacks kill 40/27 and 20/9 termies, and in return the termies kill 1/3 with pw and 1 with fist. Thus if tac termies dont shoot and are not in cover they lose.

However, with just cover the numbers change to 20/18 and 20/9 to 2.8 ish. Much closer, and the termies still havent shot anything with their 24 inch guns.

As for rp, due to how rp works it is a terrible save. It is easy to take away and costs you attacks and combat modifiers. So no, t5 3+ with rp is nowhere near as good as 2+/5++.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Fair point sJGrand but I just wanted to point out

40 points for a T5 3+ 1 W model isn't good to begin with.

Kind of invalidates every Term like unit in the game doesn't it?

And to be fair, its T5 3+ 1W RP and Fearless, which by every measurable statistic is right in line with T4 2+ 5++ 1W.

Comparing Lychguard or Praetorians to Terminators-- in my experience-- is unfortunate for the Necrons. While T5 3+ may be equivalent to T4 2+ against strength 3 attacks, it's inferior against almost everything else in the game, especially poisoned weapons (very prevalent with the recent popularity of Dark Eldar) and AP 3 weapons. Personally, I don't think Resurrection Protocols makes up for this, especially since you don't get them if your whole squad gets wiped out-- and squads like this will tend to draw fire if they pose any threat. And we haven't even factored in the 3++ storm shields that Assault Terminators get yet...

This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

DevianID wrote:
As for rp, due to how rp works it is a terrible save. It is easy to take away and costs you attacks and combat modifiers. So no, t5 3+ with rp is nowhere near as good as 2+/5++.

That's simply NOT true. And it's comparing T5 3+ AND RP with T4 2+ OR 5++. RP on a fearless model in CC is NOT a terrible save. Do the math, number crunch them against each other, the results WILL surprise you. Y'all act like any assault unit in the game can roll up on T5 3+ models and wipe them before they have a chance to strike back/stand back up and that's very unlikely.

T5 3+ is actually statistically identical to T4 2+5++ in a lot of situations, including against str 4 power weapons. It's worse against things w/ strength 7 or higher and AP 3 or lower attacks, but then you have to consider RP.

Edit: Okay I lied. It isn't the same in many situations. But it is against str 4 power weapons. Haha.

Nate668 wrote:T5 3+ is actually statistically identical to T4 2+5++ in a lot of situations, including against str 4 power weapons. It's worse against things w/ strength 7 or higher and AP 3 or lower attacks, but then you have to consider RP.

You mean T4 5++. They won't get their 2+ armor saves against the staff of covenant.

To correct myself, T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ without considering RP are identical for str3 regular attacks and str4 power attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior for higher strength regular or power attacks, poison, or attacks that reroll failed wounds. But that's only if you ignore RP.

Nate668 wrote:To correct myself, T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ without considering RP are identical for str3 regular attacks and str4 power attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior for higher strength regular or power attacks, poison, or attacks that reroll failed wounds. But that's only if you ignore RP.

Great post Nate, and that's the kicker. The Praetorians actually stack up pretty well against termies in terms of survivability, and we're not even taking into account that the Praetorians have twice the manoeuvrability (or 50% more on the charge) and a 100% superior shooting weapon versus assault terms (who have none ) and a weapon that compares favourably against the storm bolter (sure the old stormy can ping off armor at longer ranges, but once you get closer with the Rod it is going to hit home fo sho), and when you consider the Praetorians manoeuvrability, the Rod had a 18" threat range while the SB has a 30", not as massive of a disparity as 6" versus 24."

Of course Tac Terms have other weapon options that are not being considered, but the point is they are certainly in the same conversation. I really don't know where all the knee jerk Praes Hate came from, although if I had to guess people got all excited when they saw the website with 2A, and the recent backlash is a way to "Get Back" at GW for getting there hopes up, however after careful analysis I have to say if they had 2A base they would arguably be over powered.

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

If they are a threat to what is nearby, they'll be dead before they get to move.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

If they are a threat to what is nearby, they'll be dead before they get to move.

Maybe, sure. That's why you deepstrike them as close to as far away as possible as you can and hope for a hit. Or, make sure you take out anything that could be a threat to them on their deep strike turn earlier. I mean, it's just logic really. Sure, there's a chance they'll come in on turn 2 so you just DS them in somewhere safe. I mean, c'mon man...you're thinking pretty black and white with that statement.

T4 2+5++ is so much better than t5 3+ rp.

Guys, did you all forget that rp is not a real save? When you make an rp check, you still count as a wound for combat resolution, you lose your attacks, and if either the unit flees or all drop you don't get rp in the first place.

With termie saves, you still get to attack and dont count the saved wound for combat rez. That is massive!

Also nate, what unit has these s4 power weapons that you say make crons and termies equal?

Lightning claw terminators, for one.

Secondly, the praets are fearless so while combat resolution would still suck you'd at least "always" get your RP roll until the unit is the wiped.

Third, the terminators that get killed by the St5 AP2 weapon won't be there for the ensuing assault anyway so that is 5-10 potential dead termies even before assault happens.

Lclaw termies wound different than s4 powerweapons. Versus t4, 3/4 wound and 2/3 dont save, so 1/2 hits kill. Versus t5 5/9th wound, which is more than half. But who runs lclaw termies over thss termies?

As for shooting, it takes 3 shots to kill a termie in the open. So perhaps a 10 man squad kills 3, not 5 to 10

DevianID wrote:Lclaw termies wound different than s4 powerweapons. Versus t4, 3/4 wound and 2/3 dont save, so 1/2 hits kill. Versus t5 5/9th wound, which is more than half. But who runs lclaw termies over thss termies?

As for shooting, it takes 3 shots to kill a termie in the open. So perhaps a 10 man squad kills 3, not 5 to 10

He asked for a str 4 power weapon wielding termie so I gave him one. And don't factor in two lightning claws, if you are, that skews the results too much in one direction (yes I know it's an option and yes I know it is what people WOULD take, but to keep things in line with one another and within the same points cost its best to factor against termies with no upgrades which I believe are ~40 ppm).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you reserve them, deep strike in, weather a turn of shooting and use them as a clean up crew when there is less on the board to shoot at them.

If they are a threat to what is nearby, they'll be dead before they get to move.

You could literally say that about everything in the game.

I never said anything about termies and praetorians being equal. I was just giving the situations in which T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ are statistically the same. And S4 power attacks include incubi and any space marine with a regular power weapon. Before you start arguing with me about how uncommon incubi and regular power weapons are in the current meta, please be aware that all I'm not trying to argue that praetorians are better. I'm just providing facts.

DevianID wrote:T4 2+5++ is so much better than t5 3+ rp.

Guys, did you all forget that rp is not a real save? When you make an rp check, you still count as a wound for combat resolution, you lose your attacks, and if either the unit flees or all drop you don't get rp in the first place.

With termie saves, you still get to attack and don't count the saved wound for combat rez. That is massive!

Very good point (and one I already mentioned )

But the counter point is the RP stacks with the armor save, unlike the Termies invulnerable save. So a 3+ AND a 5+ RP is very very close to a 2+ statistically. With a Res orb they are basically identical (although as you mentioned, Armor save rolls of "2" keep the termie ticking in that combat.)

Edit: I forgot to mention that with the T5 the statistics head in the Praets direction for all non power weapons that aren't poisoness. (or S7+ and S2-, not that such things are very prevalent).

But again, its RP with fearless. The only unit in the dex with this combo. This cannot be ignored.

Edit: Correction, the shards are RP with fearless as well right? Not that this invalidates anything

Also nate, what unit has these s4 power weapons that you say make crons and termies equal?

Incubi? I actually meant to number crunch some equal point valued Incubi units last night but forgot. I they should prove an interesting bench mark (as they are superior to most other Assault units initiative values).


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Nate668 wrote:I never said anything about termies and praetorians being equal. I was just giving the situations in which T4 2+5++ and T5 3+ are statistically the same. And S4 power attacks include incubi and any space marine with a regular power weapon. Before you start arguing with me about how uncommon incubi and regular power weapons are in the current meta, please be aware that all I'm not trying to argue that praetorians are better. I'm just providing facts.

Exactly.

I wouldn't say that either one is necessarily better then the other. Both units clearly have pros and cons (Termies a tad more survivable and better punch in CC, Praets more manoeuvrable, a better shooty weapon, and fearless) but I would say that both sound about right for 40pts, which is what we are really discussing here. Some people are acting like Praets should cost like 25pts or something ridiculous, and I'm telling you right now if they did I would take 30 of them and win every tournament in existence because that is just ridonculous. If anyone doesn't believe me I will gladly challenge any dex to a game with 25 pt Praets (or even 35pt Praets) .

If you include RP and are only concerned with survivability, T5 3+ RP is superior to T4 2+5++ for attacks that ignore armor at strength 6 or less, and equal at strength 7 or higher. For attacks that do not ignore armor, they are equal against S4 attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior against attacks that do not ignore armor at S5 or higher.

Nate668 wrote:If you include RP and are only concerned with survivability, T5 3+ RP is superior to T4 2+5++ for attacks that ignore armor at strength 6 or less, and equal at strength 7 or higher. For attacks that do not ignore armor, they are equal against S4 attacks. T4 2+5++ is superior against attacks that do not ignore armor at S5 or higher.

Hmmmm, not sure if I'm figuring this wrong (non PW):

S5 versus T4 2+

(2/3)(1/6) = .111

S5 versus T5 3+ RP 5+

(1/2)(1/3)(2/3) = .111


S5 versus T5 3+ RP 4+ (Res Orb)

(1/2)(1/3)(1/2) = .083





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S6 non PW (real common I know, but just for sheets and geeegles):

S6 versus T4 2+

(5/6)(1/6) = .139

S6 versus T5 3+ RP 5+

(2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = .148

S6 versus T5 3+ RP 4+ (Res Orb)

(2/3)(1/3)(1/2) = .111

So they oh so common S6 non PW is slightly better against RP 5+ and clearly worse then RP 4+

And now for the much more common S3 non PW:

S3 versus T4 2+

(1/3)(1/6) = .056

S3 versus T5 3+ RP 5+

(1/6)(1/3)(2/3) = .037

S3 versus T5 3+ RP 4+ (Res Orb)

(1/6)(1/3)(1/2) = .027

With T5 3+ RP being a pretty clear winner with our without a Res Orb.

Should be noted (and obvious) that I'm rolling for successful casualties, so the lower the number the better for the surviving unit.

Also noteworthy, T5 pwns St1 GOGOAeonStaves!

Oops, I definitely did the calculations for non-power weapons wrong somehow. Thanks!

Hey Shadar, your math is looking good.

Do you mind doing some common enemies?

Say, 10 Genestealers, Sanguinary Guard, LC Termies, Wyches with a Hekatrix and Agonizer, some other typical enemy.

I'm really tempted to give these guys a try now, with a D lord and Orb, at least for fun.

CthuluIsSpy wrote: AP2 weapons <snip> that also count as power weapons.

Isn't that a little redundant?

Breotan wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote: AP2 weapons <snip> that also count as power weapons.

Isn't that a little redundant?

Not really. Consider a Plasma Pistol: AP2, not a power weapon.

Sasori wrote:Hey Shadar, your math is looking good.

Do you mind doing some common enemies?

Say, 10 Genestealers, Sanguinary Guard, LC Termies, Wyches with a Hekatrix and Agonizer, some other typical enemy.

I'm really tempted to give these guys a try now, with a D lord and Orb, at least for fun.

Absolutely, the above were done at work just playing with a calculator though, the requested calculations I would need to be at home with all my dexes and my trusty Excel software . But I'll see what I can throw together tonight and try to post it this weekend.

Actually I know the Genies and DE well enough I should probably be able to do it by memory (plus the info on the GW website ), though with mutli-model combats its nice to have the spreadsheet to layout the different permutations.

But I should be able to fire out first round of combat taking into account each one charging simply enough.


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Wyches

Assumptions: +1A Combat Drugs, Hydra-Gauntlets*2, Hekatrix+Agonizer Wyches Shoot and Charge! (Praetorians have pistol/blade combo)
I did this to optimise the units against each other ( if the wyches don't get one of the combat oriented drugs or the Praetorians have rods its detrimental to either in this scenario).

Splinter Pistols:

8(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)= .889

Wyches Normal CC:

28(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= 0.778

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

8(1/2)+4(1/2)=6(1/6)+(6-6(1/6))(1/6)=1.833(1/3)= 0.611

Hekatrix:

5(1/2)(1/2)= 1.25

Total Praetorian wounds 3.528

If 3 Praetorians die:

4(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 0.834

3 models should live (1 from RP)

If 4 Praetorians die:

2(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= .408

2.33 models should live (1.33 from RP)

Summary: You DO NOT want the wyches to get the charge Also this assumes that the almost 1 model the wyches killed with their pistols didn't take them out of assault range.



New Assumptions: Same Wyches and Praetorians as above but Praetorians Shoot and Charge!

Pistol pewpew:

5(2/3)(5/6)= 2.778

Assuming 3 die:

Normal Wyche CC:

12(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= .333

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

6(1/2)+3(1/2)=4.5(1/6)+(4.5-4.5(1/6))(1/6)=1.375(1/3)= 0.458

Hekatrix:

4(1/2)(1/2)= 1

Total wounds= 1.791

2 Praetorians die:

9(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 1.875

After RP you should have 3 to 4 Praetorians versus 5 maybe 6 Wyches, Agonizer and Hydras intact. Could go either way at that point (the Agonizer really keeps the wyches in it) but combat should favour the praetorians.

So resolution is largely tilted to who gets the charge.

Edit: Also it should be noted that there is a point disparity in favour of the Praetorians( 150 to 200) but if the Wyches had any prayer of actually charging the did it disembarking from a 70+ raider.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Sasori wrote:Hey Shadar, your math is looking good.

Do you mind doing some common enemies?

Say, 10 Genestealers, Sanguinary Guard, LC Termies, Wyches with a Hekatrix and Agonizer, some other typical enemy.

I'm really tempted to give these guys a try now, with a D lord and Orb, at least for fun.

Absolutely, the above were done at work just playing with a calculator though, the requested calculations I would need to be at home with all my dexes and my trusty Excel software . But I'll see what I can throw together tonight and try to post it this weekend.

Actually I know the Genies and DE well enough I should probably be able to do it by memory (plus the info on the GW website ), though with mutli-model combats its nice to have the spreadsheet to layout the different permutations.

But I should be able to fire out first round of combat taking into account each one charging simply enough.


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Wyches

Assumptions: +1A Combat Drugs, Hydra-Gauntlets*2, Hekatrix+Agonizer Wyches Shoot and Charge! (Praetorians have pistol/blade combo)
I did this to optimise the units against each other ( if the wyches don't get one of the combat oriented drugs or the Praetorians have rods its detrimental to either in this scenario).

Splinter Pistols:

8(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)= .889

Wyches Normal CC:

28(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= 0.778

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

8(1/2)+4(1/2)=6(1/6)+(6-6(1/6))(1/6)=1.833(1/3)= 0.611

Hekatrix:

5(1/2)(1/2)= 1.25

Total Praetorian wounds 3.528

If 3 Praetorians die:

4(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 0.834

3 models should live (1 from RP)

If 4 Praetorians die:

2(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= .408

2.33 models should live (1.33 from RP)

Summary: You DO NOT want the wyches to get the charge Also this assumes that the almost 1 model the wyches killed with their pistols didn't take them out of assault range.



New Assumptions: Same Wyches and Praetorians as above but Praetorians Shoot and Charge!

Pistol pewpew:

5(2/3)(5/6)= 2.778

Assuming 3 die:

Normal Wyche CC:

12(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)= .333

Wyches Hydra Gauntlets:

6(1/2)+3(1/2)=4.5(1/6)+(4.5-4.5(1/6))(1/6)=1.375(1/3)= 0.458

Hekatrix:

4(1/2)(1/2)= 1

Total wounds= 1.791

2 Praetorians die:

9(1/2)(5/6)(1/2)= 1.875

After RP you should have 3 to 4 Praetorians versus 5 maybe 6 Wyches, Agonizer and Hydras intact. Could go either way at that point (the Agonizer really keeps the wyches in it) but combat should favour the praetorians.

So resolution is largely tilted to who gets the charge.

Edit: Also it should be noted that there is a point disparity in favour of the Praetorians( 150 to 200) but if the Wyches had any prayer of actually charging the did it disembarking from a 70+ raider.

I understand the math but how many wyches? we talking equal points? or a typical size wych cult an enemy would take? I know almost every GOOD wych unit ive faced had a heamaclous in it giving them FNP, just like if I took praetorians Id think strongly about taking a destroyer with rez orb.

then again I would never take praetorians....

If math is going to be involved in validating a unit we need to set some control units i would suggest....maybe 3 typical apex assault units.

examples - a typical blood angel assault uint (elite so sanguinary guard or vanguards), a wych cult with/without haemoculous? and...a genestealer unit to see how rending comes into play? oh and we damn sure need a terminator assault unit, who has the best one? space wolves with counter attack?

just my two cents.

FNP won't matter against praets with rod of covenant.

And to a much lesser extent, the voidblade because of rending (though that is unreliable).

Sasori wrote:The only type of Termies I ever see are Paladins and TH/SS anyway, so that shot isn't going to do much good against them.

I could see them keeping up with scarabs, and assaulting the innards of transports, after they break them open. It's just at their points cost, they really need more to them. It's a shame, because they have Awesome Models, and Awesome Fluff.

Indeed, awesome models and fluff, but awful game-wise. Poor GW.

I understand the math but how many wyches? we talking equal points? or a typical size wych cult an enemy would take? I know almost every GOOD wych unit ive faced had a heamaclous in it giving them FNP, just like if I took praetorians Id think strongly about taking a destroyer with rez orb.

then again I would never take praetorians....

If math is going to be involved in validating a unit we need to set some control units i would suggest....maybe 3 typical apex assault units.

examples - a typical blood angel assault uint (elite so sanguinary guard or vanguards), a wych cult with/without haemoculous? and...a genestealer unit to see how rending comes into play? oh and we damn sure need a terminator assault unit, who has the best one? space wolves with counter attack?

just my two cents.

Sorry I thought it was pretty clear it was 10 wyches, and as I stated at the bottom the Praets are 50 points more but the Wyches are almost certainly going to be riding in a 70 pint transport that the Praets don't need for mobility.

Good points otherwise. As far as Genies go I protracted the assault against 10. If the Genies get the assault the Praets are basically dead.

However if the Praets assault it looks something like this (using partial models for simple math):

End of first assault phase 5.076 Genies to 3.574 Praets

End of second assault phase 4.041 Genies to 2.571 Praets

End of third assault phase 3.354 Genies to 1.773 Praets

So it will likely not be until your opponents turn, assault phase 4, before he finishes them off. And Genies are a particularly nasty unit for the Praets.

One thing the math has clearly shown me is you really need the assault (charge) with the Praets to maximise their effectiveness, however with their 18"range that is something you should get more often then not.


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wuestenfux wrote:

Sasori wrote:The only type of Termies I ever see are Paladins and TH/SS anyway, so that shot isn't going to do much good against them.

I could see them keeping up with scarabs, and assaulting the innards of transports, after they break them open. It's just at their points cost, they really need more to them. It's a shame, because they have Awesome Models, and Awesome Fluff.

Indeed, awesome models and fluff, but awful game-wise. Poor GW.

Nice take. Way to completely skip 3 pages of analysis. Riveting

I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

Sasori wrote:I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

After all, Genestealers are one of the best cc units in the game. Hands down. Necrons don't have a unit that comes even close.

wuestenfux wrote:

Sasori wrote:I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

After all, Genestealers are one of the best cc units in the game. Hands down. Necrons don't have a unit that comes even close.

Wraiths would obliterate Genestealers.

Sasori wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Sasori wrote:I would if anyone does field Praetorains, they are likely going to use the Rods.

I'm surprised the assault swang so much In the Genetealers favor. I figured without the poison rerolls, they wouldn't be near as deadly.

After all, Genestealers are one of the best cc units in the game. Hands down. Necrons don't have a unit that comes even close.

Wraiths would obliterate Genestealers.

This. Also Lychguard w/shields would be serviceable as well (or a strong Court).

And I used Sword/Pistol on the Genies after doing so on the wyches (I had stacked the deck a bit in the wyches favour so I did that to counter it).

This should be obvious but, Sword/Pistol is stronger against more "basic assault troops" where rod is stronger against "elite assault troops."

After piling through a bit I think you were on the right track, if your going take them at all you gotta go deep. 10 strong with a DLord/res orb is the way to roll (and honestly I'm kinda leaning towards warscythe on lord/ pistol VB's on Prates as the way to role) heheh see what I did there?

5 just doesn't bring enough heat at one time to the right location (maybe in smaller games).

Although the Warscythe/VB-Pistol combo would be a more expensive then the scarab solution, it would have the added bonus of resiliency and the ability to kill anything that pops out of the can it opens.

Of course it largely depends on the envisioned role. In the aforementioned army I ahve plenty of elite troop killers and was looking for a way to shore up my can opening prowess. Ideally I would spread them out 20" wide and slam tank walls with multi assaults (two Preatorians and a DLord with Warscythe will melt any tank the touch).

But just thoughts so far. I need to pull together some of the other jump assault units as they would illicit a much better apples to apples comparison, particularly I need to compare them side by side with the wraiths. Should be interesting.

Hmm...Interesting math. The problem with wyches is if you get there then you probably have 2 tokens giving FC. That and if you have a haemy you don't have 2 wych weapons. Razorflails also do better math wise (reroll hit and wound).

As far as CC termies wolves would be good with counter attack although I would rather see BT with PE and FC or counter but most have FC (5LC 2TH/SS).

I still am not so sure I would go the pistol route as the rod is a PW and much better in CC.

I'm pretty sure Wraiths are going to win out everytime, they appear to be the best combat unit we have in the Dex.

Akroma06 wrote:Hmm...Interesting math. The problem with wyches is if you get there then you probably have 2 tokens giving FC. That and if you have a haemy you don't have 2 wych weapons. Razorflails also do better math wise (reroll hit and wound).

As far as CC termies wolves would be good with counter attack although I would rather see BT with PE and FC or counter but most have FC (5LC 2TH/SS).

I still am not so sure I would go the pistol route as the rod is a PW and much better in CC.

Actually I did the math with Razorflails, then Derped the commentary section (if you look closely you'll see the rerolls in the math) My bad, its been too long since I played my DE.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:I'm pretty sure Wraiths are going to win out everytime, they appear to be the best combat unit we have in the Dex.

I have a feeling your right. The Praets shooting will shore them up some what, but I think they have an internal premiums being charged for jump infantry in the elite slot. Also they synergize with DLords and Wraiths don't. I might have to do 10 Praets+DLord VS 600pts of Wraiths Just to be "fair" heheh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some more thoughts:

The Cron FA slot is really really good. Sacrabs and Wraiths prowess is well none, and of course destoryers are none to shabby.

Last night I was looking Tomb Blades+Stealth. 150 point unit that can turbo boost for a 2+ cover and quickly deployed mobile cover wall for another fast unit.

I was playing with the idea of the DLord+Praets with a wall of turbo boosted Tomb Blades in front of them. Pretty nasty.

How come wraiths don't synergize well with D Lords? I thought that would make a good combo.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:How come wraiths don't synergize well with D Lords? I thought that would make a good combo.

Yes. Why not a Destroyer Lord with Res Orb and Mindshackle Scarabs? Sure it's a point sink but, if I were to run praetorians it would be with that.

because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.

tedbpb wrote:because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.

Sorry I got it wrong, I meant a destroyer lord with mindshackle and res orb with praetorians, I didn't read the quote carefully enough

it sucks how destroyer lords cannot take courts with lords and cryteks, so you can't get the "two courts" going and have two "sergeants" per squad...

severedblue wrote:

tedbpb wrote:because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.

Sorry I got it wrong, I meant a destroyer lord with mindshackle and res orb with praetorians, I didn't read the quote carefully enough

it sucks how destroyer lords cannot take courts with lords and cryteks, so you can't get the "two courts" going and have two "sergeants" per squad...

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a second court. The whole "two leaders per squad" thing has a pretty good chance of being overturned in an FAQ.

Nate668 wrote:

severedblue wrote:

tedbpb wrote:because matt ward in his infinite wisdom deemed wraiths unworthy of having RP thus there is no point in taking an orb.... However I find that a full squad of wraiths is very survivable I lasted through three turns of tau shooting with mine.

Sorry I got it wrong, I meant a destroyer lord with mindshackle and res orb with praetorians, I didn't read the quote carefully enough

it sucks how destroyer lords cannot take courts with lords and cryteks, so you can't get the "two courts" going and have two "sergeants" per squad...

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a second court. The whole "two leaders per squad" thing has a pretty good chance of being overturned in an FAQ.

Agreed.

Nate668 wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a second court. The whole "two leaders per squad" thing has a pretty good chance of being overturned in an FAQ.

It would be the first time that they overturned something that would result in them selling less models. If they make that change that will hit them hard financially, if they let you use 2 per squad it is basically doubling the amount of money you pay per squad! Even if you do plan on making conversions you still have to buy GW models to do so.