Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

Yes, because str10 AP1 is not enough firepower!

I want str11 baby

Because they don't need at all, they are pretty much the best anti-tank as it is.

They can move and fire those beautiful railguns, what more do you need.

Nom XD

nomsheep wrote:Because they don't need at all, they are pretty much the best anti-tank as it is.

They can move and fire those beautiful railguns, what more do you need.

Nom XD

jus saying
they can only move if you give them the stabilization upgrade

What more do we need ummmm...... Blast Template be nice! XD

Talamare wrote:

nomsheep wrote:Because they don't need at all, they are pretty much the best anti-tank as it is.

They can move and fire those beautiful railguns, what more do you need.

Nom XD

jus saying
they can only move if you give them the stabilization upgrade

True dat, but I always have given them it.

Nom XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KoganStyle wrote:What more do we need ummmm...... Blast Template be nice! XD

Tis why we have hammerheads.

Nom XD

KoganStyle wrote:What more do we need ummmm...... Blast Template be nice! XD

Due to extensive testing, we the Tau have found the Airburst Fragmentation Grenade to be field worthy and is now standard issue wargear

Also we have combined the technology used in the smart missile system with it, so that you do not need line of sight

further more it now causes pinning for some reason

Tau... never enough pinning

Strength 10 AP 1 is the best tank-hunting weapon ever IMO. It is already really good as it is considering how cheap the broadsides are.

Talamare wrote:

KoganStyle wrote:What more do we need ummmm...... Blast Template be nice! XD

Due to extensive testing, we the Tau have found the Airburst Fragmentation Grenade to be field worthy and is now standard issue wargear

Also we have combined the technology used in the smart missile system with it, so that you do not need line of sight

further more it now causes pinning for some reason

Tau... never enough pinning

We have also brought in nom's patented rule of cool as standard

Rule of cool
If it belongs to me it's cool as a result of this all other armies are melted by it's coolness (and my lighter) before gameplay resulting in instant victory for me.


Tau wishlisting, can never get enough threads on it.

Nom XD

Talamare wrote:Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

...Do you think it might be a touch overkill? Can you even go over str 10?

Now lance weapons!

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Talamare wrote:Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

...Do you think it might be a touch overkill? Can you even go over str 10?

No, you can't go over Str 10. (Check page 6 of the BRB, 4th paragraph, the one that starts with "Certain pieces of wargear").

So Tank Hunters would do nothing for Broadside Railguns.

Tau could use a ranged strength 8 weapon. I'm sick of being stuck between missile pods or wasting a railgun on armor 13...

StormForged wrote:Tau could use a ranged strength 8 weapon. I'm sick of being stuck between missile pods or wasting a railgun on armor 13...

Like the Fusion Gun?

Shrike325 wrote:

StormForged wrote:Tau could use a ranged strength 8 weapon. I'm sick of being stuck between missile pods or wasting a railgun on armor 13...

Like the Fusion Gun?

Something beyond 6"-12". Around 36"-48".

How about this?

Railgun S10 AP1 Assault 1, Lance, Ignore Cover (and no LOS needed just like the SMS)

And they can be taken by crisis suits for 25pts!

jy2 wrote

Railgun S10 AP1 Assault 1, Lance, Ignore Cover (and no LOS needed just like the SMS)

sorry but thats a bit much, the railgun is pretty much pefect as it is, adding lance, ignore cover and making it assault is way over the top.

There are many other things in the Tau codex that needs help, personally I would like some battlesuit portable Ion cannons or some such

as to each of the opposed changes.

Lance : adding lance to a already str 10 ap 1 weapon is over powered, making AV top out at 12 would mean that only a 1 would not pen even a land raider, so in all fairness to our enemies I dont want to see that level of play balance.

Assault : A Railgun is a massive weapon accelerating a projectile at realivistic speeds, so it should be a heavy weapon at the least, but the suits already have a option to allow them to move and shoot, so no needs for the change.

Ignore cover : cant really see the logic for that, since even other powerful weapons still give cover saves, and the SMS does not need LOS due to the missles being self guided and manuvering around obstacles.

Railguns are one of the things the Tau rules did well, no reason to try and improve on them, other than maybe let us have more of them in a force.

but if you suggestion was intended as sarcasm, then sorry the internet does not convey sarcasm well.

Only joking. It's fine as it is.

How about giving them relentless...since they're already twice as much as a Terminator and have no way to move and shoot without becoming more expensive, and even then they can move as little as 1 inch. Tank hunter would also be nice, as would a sub round...maybe the ability to combine fire to match the hammerhead one, since lets face it 3 5'' sub rounds would be OP like nobodies business lol. Or give them the option to take other things like an ion cannon, since I would take ion cannons if I could take them in 3s for one heavy slot lol...then the heavy rate of fire on those things would actually be worth it.

On an unrelated note, how about dropping the points of stealth suits to like 18 or so and letting them take plasma rifles at 15 pts a pop?

jy2 wrote:How about this?

Railgun S10 AP1 Assault 1, Lance, Ignore Cover (and no LOS needed just like the SMS)

And they can be taken by crisis suits for 25pts!

I think this would fix Fire Warriors.

IcyCool wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Talamare wrote:Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

...Do you think it might be a touch overkill? Can you even go over str 10?

No, you can't go over Str 10. (Check page 6 of the BRB, 4th paragraph, the one that starts with "Certain pieces of wargear").

So Tank Hunters would do nothing for Broadside Railguns.

Tank Hunter doesnt increase STR, it just adds 1 to the pen roll

So it would work

jy2 wrote:How about this?

Railgun S10 AP1 Assault 1, Lance, Ignore Cover (and no LOS needed just like the SMS)

And they can be taken by crisis suits for 25pts!

I'm guessing you are being sarcastic?

That thing would glance almost anything on a 2+. Even a KFF can't get you out of that one because of no cover. Though Meka dreads and holos are fine I suppose.

jy2 wrote:How about this?

Railgun S10 AP1 Assault 1, Lance, Ignore Cover (and no LOS needed just like the SMS)

And they can be taken by crisis suits for 25pts!

You might as well go all out then

Railgun S10 AP1 240" Assault, Lance, Melta, Ignore Cover, Tank Hunter

Auto Pen

So... its effectively 13-30 and it lowers enemies armor to 12... so... yea

Let's see. 72" range, can fire on the move, Str 10, adds 1 to damage and ignores all types of armour, and already pens AV 10 automatically. Your idea wouldn't effect much, but would penetrate AV 10-11 auto, and ensure at least a glance on AV 12.


Hmmmm. No.

Why not make it a non-blast ordnance weapon? S10 +2d6 pick the highest seems good to me.

It's an anti-tank weapon and blasts aren't too good at taking out vehicles, so I wouldn't put blast on the railgun.

With regards to jy2's post, he is clearly joking. I don't think everybody should take it so seriously.

I don't think that, possibly the best, anti-tank weapon in the game needs any change rules wise.

It's fine the way it is. It's verging on OP already.

For fun, I'll make it so IOP you won't comprehend just how OP.

Range-Infinity
Str 10
AP 1
Type-Ordnance 1, no blast, Lance, Melta, ignores all saves and EW, ID

It always rolls 4D6 for Armour Penertatrion, and picks the 2 highest.


Basically, it is a D weqapon without being Str D, and walys inflicts ID to everybody, with no saves or rules allowed.

Deadshot wrote:It's fine the way it is. It's verging on OP already.

For fun, I'll make it so IOP you won't comprehend just how OP.

Range-Infinity
Str 10
AP 1
Type-Ordnance 1, no blast, Lance, Melta, ignores all saves and EW, ID

It always rolls 4D6 for Armour Penertatrion, and picks the 2 highest.


Basically, it is a D weqapon without being Str D, and walys inflicts ID to everybody, with no saves or rules allowed.

Wow, just wow, I believe we also need to update the broadside stats with it.

10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/2+/2++

It has a rerollable 2++ and a rerollable 2+ FNP.

What seems to be the problem with making the railgun non-blast ordnance? Cover still laughs at it, and the dice gods can still screw with you by making you roll low both numbers.

No. The Railgun is powerful enough, and even moreso on Broadsides than Hammerheads, because they are TL.

Guys, fix something besides this

Kings of the anti tank movement

jy2 wrote:How about this?

Railgun S10 AP1 Assault 1, Lance, Ignore Cover (and no LOS needed just like the SMS)

And they can be taken by crisis suits for 25pts!

You forgot to say that any suit that takes it gains tank hunter and rerolls to hit, and 3d6 pick the 2 highest armour pen..

How bout this:
Broadsides:
WS3 BS4 S5 T4 W2 I2 A1 LD9 SV2+ 110pts for 2 models
Equipment: Rules:
TL Ion Cannon Relentless
TL SMS Blood Brothers (count as bonded at no extra cost)
HW Multitracker Old Guard (Because of their supreme veteran status, provide +1 to seize initiative role, only +1 for having the unit, not a cumulative bonus, does not stack with additional units)
Assault Grenades
Anti Tank Grenades

Options:
Add up to 2 more suits............+50pts/model
Add up to 6 Gun Drones..........+8pts/model
Add up to 4 Shield Drones.......+12pts/model
Add up to 4 Marker Drones......+10pts/model
May Exchange TL Ion Cannon for:
Cluster Warhead Launcher........Free (S5 Ap5 Heavy 1 Large Blast Range: Base to Base, must be taken by entire squad, each model (minus drones) places a LBT base to base all the way around the base of the model, no Friendly Fire)
TL AFP..................................+15pts (S5 AP5 Rge 48" Heavy 1 Barrage, ignores cover
TL Railguns............................+25pts
May exchange TL SMS for:
TL Flamers............................Free
TL Plasma Rifles.....................+10pts
TL Missile Pod........................+10pts
Sergeant may exchange his Multitracker for:
Shield Generator.....................+15pts
Locator Beacon......................+10pts
If he does, Sergeant may take:
HW Markerlight.............................Free
Whole Squad may take:
Hardwired TL........................+5pts/model
Charge Boosters....................+8pts/model (models may elect to move 2d6 inches in movement instead of 6 inches, does not ignore terrain)
Hard wired Blacksun filters......+1pts/model

Stealth Suit Team
WS2 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 LD9 SV 3+ 70pts for 3 models
Equipment: Rules:
Burst Cannon Relentless Stealth
Stealth Suit Blood Brothers
Drone Controller Jetpack
Assault Grenades
Anti Tank Grenades
Options:
Add up to 5 more models 20pts/model
Add up to 6 Gun Drones..........+8pts/model
Add up to 4 Shield Drones.......+12pts/model
Add up to 4 Marker Drones......+10pts/model
May exchange Burst Cannon for:
Plasma Rifle..................+15pts
Flamer........................Free
Fusion Blaster...............+5pts
Rail Rifle.......................+10pts
Sergeant may exchange Drone Controller for
Target Lock.................+5pts
Locator Beacon............+10pts
Scatterfield Array..........+25pts (squad mounted disruption field generator, adds +1 to cover save, minimum cover save 6+ in open ground, doesn't work in CC)
Squad may take:
HW Blacksun Filters........+1pts
F4 Bombs....................+5pts/model (2d6 plus 6 armor pen, 1 attack per model in CC)

How about crisis suits?
WS 2 BS 4 T4 S5 W2 I2 A1 LD 8 (9 with sgt) 3+ Sv 70pts for squad (2 models)
equipment: Rules:
burst cannon Relentless
flamer Jetpack
multitracker Blood Brothers

Options:
add up to 4 more crisis suits at 30pts/model
Add up to 6 Gun Drones..........+8pts/model
Add up to 4 Shield Drones.......+12pts/model
Add up to 4 Marker Drones......+10pts/model

May exchange burst cannon and/or flamer for:
TL burst cannon........+5pts
TL Flamers................Free
Plasma Rifle...............+10pts
TL Plasma Rifle...........+15Pts
Fusion Blaster............Free
TL Fusion Blaster.......+5pts
Missile Pod................+10pts
TL Missile Pod...........+15pts
Plasma Caster...........+30pts (Rg 40" S6 AP2 Heavy2. Plasma Caster replaces all weapon systems on a crisis suit. For each successive turn that it fires the plasma caster gains 1 shot up to a maximum of 5. Wielders of a plasma caster may not gain a BS increase from markerlights, but may still gain all other benefits (and their targets subject to any other reductions))
Note, if a TL system is taken no other weapon systems may be taken
Sergeant may exchange Multitracker for:
Shield Generator......+5pts
Locator Beacon.......+5pts
Scatterfiled Generator....+10pts/model
If he does, Sergeant may take:
HW Multitracker........Free
Squad may take hardwired
Blacksun filter......1pts/model
Target lock.......+8pts/model
Charge Booster.....+10pts/model
Iridium Armor......+15pts/model (2+ arm sv 6+invuln)

First off; That was probably the most helpful post on here (bravo) but the least funny (boo)

Broadsides-
I don't think the broadside suits should have grenades, or help seize the initiative. Particularly the second one. Also, they can take A LOT of drones now, meaning you need either a vindicare or an obscene amount of concentrated fire to hurt them at all, maybe limit the number of drones a little?

Crisis-
The Plasma Caster...Maybe they only get the additional shot if they shoot at the same unit and if they don't move? Because this way they could charge up while bounding forward and shooting some regular dudes/infiltrating scouts/anything, before slamming termies/honour guard/whatever, which makes little sense. Also, It could just blaze away at a LR charging up (if the enemy is meched up) before slaughtering whatever was inside/using their 2 additional shots to ruin razorbacks/rhinos/whatever. It just seems like it needs a bit more fine tuning.

Also, I can't see anywhere it telling you how much a sergeant is. Is he one of the two originals? I can't comment too much on points costs because I'm not that familiar with tau beyond playing them a few times, so yeah. Thats on others

motyak wrote:First off; That was probably the most helpful post on here (bravo) but the least funny (boo)

Broadsides-
I don't think the broadside suits should have grenades, or help seize the initiative. Particularly the second one. Also, they can take A LOT of drones now, meaning you need either a vindicare or an obscene amount of concentrated fire to hurt them at all, maybe limit the number of drones a little?

well at present they can consist of a ten man squad with 7 4+ invuln and 10 2+ saves because of how shield drones work. the reason I let them still take so many drones was because honestly it's just tacking on points to an already expensive unit, like fielding a squad of 10 storm bolter termies with no landraider.
I threw the old guard rule in there (which, to clarify, you get +1 to ur sieze initiative only, and its only if you have a squad, not if you take more than one squad) as a way to reprisent that they are the veterans amongst veterans, since I fathom that no army with any sort of sanity would give a railgun to a noob pilot. In truthI figured it was a pretty cheap upgrade since sieze initiative is so rarely used (correct me if i'm wrong, i've never played an official tournie)

motyak wrote:Crisis-
The Plasma Caster...Maybe they only get the additional shot if they shoot at the same unit and if they don't move? Because this way they could charge up while bounding forward and shooting some regular dudes/infiltrating scouts/anything, before slamming termies/honour guard/whatever, which makes little sense. Also, It could just blaze away at a LR charging up (if the enemy is meched up) before slaughtering whatever was inside/using their 2 additional shots to ruin razorbacks/rhinos/whatever. It just seems like it needs a bit more fine tuning.

Also, I can't see anywhere it telling you how much a sergeant is. Is he one of the two originals? I can't comment too much on points costs because I'm not that familiar with tau beyond playing them a few times, so yeah. Thats on others

just like in the new dexes, sergeants are part of the original squad (its why the squad costs more than the cost of two suits) Also that seems fair as a suggestion for the plasma caster...personally I liked the thought of spraying all over the place. if you'd like i can post of the rest of the codex I developed...

I just mean, in regards to that initiative seizing thing, it becomes twice as risky to deploy in an offensive manner when you have first turn, because they can easily seize initiative and pound you to hell.

Touche on the unit size/drone thing

And yeah, post it, I'd love to see it, if its good I might convince my mate to play a few games with them for funsies

So I managed to reload firefox and now it deleted all the hour of writing I'd done to post the HQ choices...
Ethereal-100pts
WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W3 I3 A3 LD10 SV4+,4++ Equipment: Honor Blade, Battle Armor,Shield Generator Rules: Inspiring, Price of Failure, Stubborn, Honor Guard
Honor Blade: doubles strength and ignores armor saves
Inspiring: Ethereals are to Tau as Gods are to Men, so revered they are. Thus, any Tau (not Kroot Vespid or Human) with LoS to Ethereals may re roll ANY morale or pinning test they are required to make. In addition, the squad the ethereal joins may choose whether to pass or fail ANY morale or pinning test it is required to make.

Price of Failure: Tau are monstrously homocidal without the guidance of their beloved ethereals. So devastating is their desire for war they almost wiped themselves out before the Ethereals came. Thus, in the event of the death of an ethereal model, All tau with LoS must take a moral check. Should they fail, they must begin falling back towards the table edge in their deployment zone. Whether they pass or fail, all tau who took the test gain the following modifier:
Rage USR
All rapid fire weapons become Assault 2
All Assault weapons gain +1 to RoF

Should an ethereal die it counts for double victory points. Should the rules of the scenario dictate that the loss of the unit would normally count for double victory points, the loss of an ethereal counts for triple instead.

Ethereals may take an Honor guard of up to 20 Firewarriors, with no options and BS4, for 10pts/model

Battlesuit Commander 100pts
WS3 BS5 S4 T3 W3 I3 A3 LD10 SV3+ Equipment: XV22 Battlesuit, Burst Cannon, Flamer, Multitracker, Target Aquisition Unit, Drone Controller Rules: Leader of Good, Merciless, Jetpack, Bodyguard

XV22 suit: confers stealth field generator, stealth USR, shield generator (4++ sv)
Target Aquisition Unit: allows commander to target 2 different units with his weapon systems
Leader of Good: 12 ld bubble, units within may re roll all morale and pinning tests, unit he joins counts as bonded with him
Merciless: in melee against non IC non MC non vehicle units, gains preferred enemy against that unit
Bodyguard: may take a squad of 6 stealth suits as a bodyguard, with all relevent options. If using an XV8 suit, use the bodyguard unit profile below

May upgrade to XV8........Free, loses stealth, shield generator, stealth field generator, TAU, gains +1 S and T
Add up to 1 C and C Drone......+20pts/model (counts as 1 combined HQ unit for Force org, IC no unit coherency with commander, has a 6" Leader of Good bubble around it)
Add up to 2 Gun Drones..........+8pts/model
Add up to 2 Shield Drones.......+12pts/model
Add up to 2 Marker Drones......+10pts/model
A commander with any drones (except the Command and Control Drone) cannot take a bodyguard or join a unit

May exchange Burst Cannon and/or Flamer for:
TL burst cannon........+5pts
TL Flamers................Free
Plasma Rifle...............+10pts
TL Plasma Rifle...........+15Pts
Fusion Blaster............Free
TL Fusion Blaster.......+5pts
Missile Pod................+10pts
TL Missile Pod...........+15pts
Plasma Caster...........+30pts +1 rat per turn for every turn fired at the same unit
Ion Stream..............+20pts (S7 Ap3 Lance, heavy1 rge 30" strikes all models in a line (friend or foe) ignores units in melee, takes up two weapon slots)
Cyclonic Ion Blaster....+20pts (S7 Ap5 Assault 3 Rge 36" rending)
TL CIB.....................+35pts
Note, if a TL system is taken no other weapon systems may be taken

May exchange multitracker for
Target lock.............+10pts
Shield Generator......+10pts (cannot be taken by XV22)
Locator Beacon.......+10pts
Comand Node.........+20pts (doubles range of command bubble, doubles range of drone command bubble as well)

May Hardwire: (does not replace a weapon system or the multitracker)
Ejector seat............10pts (on death model replaced with FW model up to 4d6 inches away from death, no VP unless firewarrior is killed, has W1, may not be taken with a bodyguard)
Stimulant injector.....+15pts (FNP)
Iridium Armor..........+25pts (2+, 6++ cannot be taken by XV22 as suit super structure is insufficient to hold the added mass)
Charge booster.......+10pts
Blacksun Filter..........+1pts
Escape booster........+15pts (gains hit and run)
Multitracker............Free (may not take two of the same upgrade. and thus may not take two multitrackers)
Bodyguard:
WS 2 BS 4 T4 S5 W2 I2 A1 LD 10 3+ Sv 70pts for squad (2 models)
equipment: Rules:
burst cannon Relentless
flamer Jetpack
multitracker Blood Brothers

May exchange Burst Cannon and/or Flamer for:
TL burst cannon........+5pts
TL Flamers................Free
Plasma Rifle...............+10pts
TL Plasma Rifle...........+15Pts
Fusion Blaster............Free
TL Fusion Blaster.......+5pts
Missile Pod................+10pts
TL Missile Pod...........+15pts
Plasma Caster...........+30pts
Ion Stream..............+20pts
Cyclonic Ion Blaster....+20pts
TL CIB.....................+35pts
Note, if a TL system is taken no other weapon systems may be taken

May exchange multitracker for
Target lock.............+10pts
Shield Generator......+10pts
UCPS.....................+5pts/model (Stands for Universale Commander Positioning System. squad becomes able to operate without being attached to the commander. either may rejoin at any time, squad must maintain coherency when away from the commander)

May Hardwire:
Stimulant injector.....+15pts
Iridium Armor..........+25pts
Charge booster.......+10pts
Escape booster........+15pts
Multitracker..............Free
Blacksun filter...........+1pts
Kroot Master Shaper 80pts (1 model)
WS6 BS3 S4 T3 W3 I3 A3 Ld9 Sv 4+ Equipment: Kroot Gunblade, Armor of the Ancients, Teeth of a Carnivore (necklace) Rules: Mercenary Leader, relentless, Stubborn, Infiltrators, Stealth
Armor of the Ancients: unlike most Kroot tech, this armor is master crafted. It confers a 5+ invulnerable save in melee combat, and a 4+ save to ranged attacks
Kroot Gunblade: this gun uses the profile (S4 ap5 Rg24 Assault 2) and counts as two close combat weapons
Teeth of a Carnivore: when consolidating after a successful sweeping advance, the Master shaper and all Kroot in his attached squad gain +1 wound for the next turn only
Mercenary Leader: The kroot fight only for rewards, but they like their cash. While he is on the table, all Kroot may re roll any morale and pinning tests. Should he fall though, all Kroot must make an immediate leadership check at -1 Ld. Also, if he is taken, Fire Warriors become an elites choice

May take a bodyguard of up to 10 models consisting of any number of the following for their listed values (as long as the total does not exceed 10 models)
Kroot Hounds 4pts/model WS4 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I5 LD 7 SV 5+ infiltrators, stealth
Kroot Carnivores 6pts/model WS4 BS3 S4 T3 W1 I4 LD 7 SV 5+ armed with a kroot gunblade, infiltrators, stealth
Krootox 15pts/model WS4 BS3 S6 T3(5) W2 I2 LD 7 SV 5+ armed with Kroot Fhat'leckta (S6 Ap5 Rg 36" Assault 1),infiltrators, units loses stealth and fleet
Kroot Hawk 5pts/model WS3 BS0 S2 T2 W2 I6 LD 6 SV- grants Fleet to unit, swarm, infiltrators, stealth

Kroot may give all models in his unit Field craft (allowing them to move and shoot unabated through forests) for +2pts per model
I don't have a lot of experience with multiple model type units, so the kroot bodyguard will probably need work. Here are the HQ slots though

dbsamurai you clearly put a lot of thought into it but I must say Im not a fan of most of your suggestions <3

But hey at least my fluff is better than wards
I know it's impossible to please everyone (and you're right I did put a lot of thought into this...basically since I first tried using stingwings about 5 years ago) so I'm just trying to come up with fixes for what I see as the weaknesses of our dex also a lot of people at my FLGS say they hate how firewarriors are 1+ and how they wanna field kroot armies, so I've been toying with a way to make that happen. As you could probably tell I don't really use kroot beyond meat shields or objective holders lol...I never saw the character in them, they're basically orks with bolters and no armor save...

I stopped reading when I saw the Crisis Suits were still T4.


If you make Crisis Suits WS2 BS4 T5 S3 and knock their points down to about 18-20 they should do remarkably better than our current versions. Their guns should definately have a points reduction and maybe introduce a large blast and couple small blast weapons to compensate for the Tau's abysmal lack of blast weapons, perhaps within the 18"-24" range to synergize with Burst Cannons. They also need another strength 8 weapon besides the Fusion Blaster, maybe spike the Ion Cannon up to S8 Heavy 5 and increase its about another 15 points.

Hammerheads and Broadsides could use more loadouts.

Keep Kroot the way they are as much as possible. Reduce the points for the Hound/Krootox and have the Shaper come with the Kroot Squad instead. Give them the 'Eaters of the dead' Option to boost their stats for the corresponding amount of points. Maybe slip some wargear for the Shaper as well.

Give FireWarrior squads Support Drones. Its the most perfect thing I can think of without breaking the Tau fluff. Allow a Shas'ui to buy 2 drones with corresponding weapons:

Twin-linked Plasma Rifle (10 Points per Drone)
Twin-linked Burst Cannons (5 Points per Drone)
Twin-linked Flamer (Free)
Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (10 Points per Drone)

Given the BS2 of Drones, the points values shouldn't be that high.

KplKeegan wrote:I stopped reading when I saw the Crisis Suits were still T4.


If you make Crisis Suits WS2 BS4 T5 S3 and knock their points down to about 18-20 they should do remarkably better than our current versions.

They're currently 30 points cause they come with guns. also they're in a battlesuit of course they're gonna be tougher and stronger than regular tau. If you look the models have robotic arms, the pilots are housed in the chest gundam style. so they'd have far greater strength (cause they have power lifter arms) but they're only so much stronger in terms of how hard it is to breach their armor. While yes you could totally drop their S skill because they really don't need it since they shouldn't be doing melee anyways, froma fluff standpoint its more logical (at most I'd drop it to 4) than leaving them with no strength modifier.

KplKeegan wrote:Their guns should definately have a points reduction and maybe introduce a large blast and couple small blast weapons to compensate for the Tau's abysmal lack of blast weapons, perhaps within the 18"-24" range to synergize with Burst Cannons. They also need another strength 8 weapon besides the Fusion Blaster, maybe spike the Ion Cannon up to S8 Heavy 5 and increase its about another 15 points.

I don't know enough about the forgeworld weapons to really mess with the strength 8 options, however that is why I'm adding things like the fusion stream, a handy energy beam that has the lance type. if you'd kept reading you'd see it I also am more focused on fixing what's there than adding new stuff, primarily cause it's easier to tweak things to be balanced and powerful than it is to come up with something new and not have it be OP

KplKeegan wrote:Hammerheads and Broadsides could use more loadouts.

I haven't covered hammerheads yet (only suits and HQs) but I do have various loadouts for them. Thats really where I just made stuff up, cause the only forgeworld options are bigger versions of the crisis weapons

KplKeegan wrote:Keep Kroot the way they are as much as possible. Reduce the points for the Hound/Krootox and have the Shaper come with the Kroot Squad instead.

Again, haven't listed my troops yet but i did add shaper standard and gave them armor saves and other things. instead nw they can add fieldcraft (since that's a very situational ability at best) and other things

KplKeegan wrote: Give them the 'Eaters of the dead' Option to boost their stats for the corresponding amount of points. Maybe slip some wargear for the Shaper as well.

doing that, just haven't llisted the troops yet, was gonna do fast attack next because that has more need (since everything in that seciton is overpriced or underpowered or both)

KplKeegan wrote:Give FireWarrior squads Support Drones. Its the most perfect thing I can think of without breaking the Tau fluff. Allow a Shas'ui to buy 2 drones with corresponding weapons:

Twin-linked Plasma Rifle (10 Points per Drone)
Twin-linked Burst Cannons (5 Points per Drone)
Twin-linked Flamer (Free)
Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (10 Points per Drone)

Given the BS2 of Drones, the points values shouldn't be that high.

Drones are BS3 in keeping with the habit of robots (POTMS anyone?) having the same standard bs as their squads. Also tau are a synergy army, not a deathstar army. Giving firewarriors the power to take plasma rifles is anti fluff, but more importantly I'd rather give it to a firewarrior than a drone. Also giving a drone TL anything except the crap guns they have now is a very bad idea, especially flamers since that doesn't require a BS to be incredably deadly, and giving them something with one shot like a TL fusion blaster means ur wasting the points if their bs is less than 3. just look at how well they shoot now with their TL pulse carbines.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/416213.page#3667718

Leon wrote:Strength 10 AP 1 is the best tank-hunting weapon ever IMO. It is already really good as it is considering how cheap the broadsides are.

You mean 'twin-linked S10 AP1 which can be improved to BS5 and the cover save removed entirely thanks to Markerlights' I think! Boo-ya. Love my Broadsides.

Except that requires 5 markerlight hits...which means mathhammer says you're gonna need two full squads of pathfinders to ensure that works...
I love my broadsides too (I built a list with nine of them and ten crisis suits) but markerlights need to be an option for more units to make them viable...

IcyCool wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Talamare wrote:Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

...Do you think it might be a touch overkill? Can you even go over str 10?

No, you can't go over Str 10..

Str D

PROVEN

im2randomghgh wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Talamare wrote:Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

...Do you think it might be a touch overkill? Can you even go over str 10?

No, you can't go over Str 10..

Str D

PROVEN

D isn't "over" Str 10, it's just a special rule that bypasses armour penetration and wounding entirely.

DISPROVEN.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Talamare wrote:Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

...Do you think it might be a touch overkill? Can you even go over str 10?

No, you can't go over Str 10..

Str D

PROVEN

D isn't "over" Str 10, it's just a special rule that bypasses armour penetration and wounding entirely.

DISPROVEN.

It is a special rule that is used in place of strength and is more powerful that Str 10.

REPROVEN

WE NEED MORE GUNS! BEING ABLE TO TAKE DOWN A LR WITH EASE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH! I WANT TO BE POPPING TITANS WITH A SINGLE BATTLESUIT!

Easily do that with a Fusion gun Stealth Tam or a Braodside. Depends on Voids or not fort Broadsides.

Deadshot wrote:Easily do that with a Fusion gun Stealth Tam or a Braodside. Depends on Voids or not fort Broadsides.

If it's a big enough game for titans, it's a big enough game for mantas. Str D TL for the win!

im2randomghgh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:D isn't "over" Str 10, it's just a special rule that bypasses armour penetration and wounding entirely.

DISPROVEN.

It is a special rule that is used in place of strength and is more powerful that Str 10.

REPROVEN

Which is still not "over" any more than "str X" is "over" anything.

I'm getting flashbacks to your horrible "40k über alles" arguments against SupCom.

Talamare wrote:Giving Tau Broadsides Tank Hunter

They probably haven't thought of it, to be honest. If they did, it was brief, and they felt very silly afterwards.

ph34r wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:D isn't "over" Str 10, it's just a special rule that bypasses armour penetration and wounding entirely.

DISPROVEN.

It is a special rule that is used in place of strength and is more powerful that Str 10.

REPROVEN

Which is still not "over" any more than "str X" is "over" anything.

I'm getting flashbacks to your horrible "40k über alles" arguments against SupCom.

D is a str value, and is listed under the str section of the weapon profile as well as the special rules area.

That means D is a value for str. D is more powerful than 10. There really is no argument to be made.

And don't be bitter about the SupCom debate, just because they have literally no defenses against psykers.

im2randomghgh wrote:D is a str value, and is listed under the str section of the weapon profile as well as the special rules area/

Just like strength X

im2randomghgh wrote:That means D is a value for str. D is more powerful than 10.

Sure, but that doesn't mean "over". It just has some other special rules.

The point is, it doesn't break the scale because it's not on the scale.

Deadshot wrote:It has a rerollable 2++ and a rerollable 2+ FNP.

Also, it may always take FNP, no matter the restrictions.

ph34r wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:D is a str value, and is listed under the str section of the weapon profile as well as the special rules area/

Just like strength X

im2randomghgh wrote:That means D is a value for str. D is more powerful than 10.

Sure, but that doesn't mean "over". It just has some other special rules.

The point is, it doesn't break the scale because it's not on the scale.

Not just like Str X. With strength X there will be other rules for it because otherwise it would literally do nothing, it is not a rule. Str D is a rule however, and without any extra explanations can be used.

It really does mean over. It is for weapon too powerful to function with a numerical str value. It is basically what would happen if they wrote str 11+.

How is it that people want to make stuff like rails guns more powerful? While were at it lets give the fire warriors range 48 large blast str 10 ap 1 that doesnt scatter, has stealth, ignore terrain etc etc.. sounds like how the necorn players wanted to keep the monolith from the old codex but make all their troops etc more powerful. Followed closely by the people whining a codex is op. good lord

Draigo wrote:How is it that people want to make stuff like rails guns more powerful? While were at it lets give the fire warriors range 48 large blast str 10 ap 1 that doesnt scatter, has stealth, ignore terrain etc etc.. sounds like how the necorn players wanted to keep the monolith from the old codex but make all their troops etc more powerful. Followed closely by the people whining a codex is op. good lord

We don't need it more powerful. Just game mechanics, it wouldn't work

Fluff wise, though...

Either way I'm happy with Str 10 AP 1, I was just arguing about whether or not D is more powerful than 10 because IT OBVIOUSLY IS!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is it that people want to make stuff like rails guns more powerful? While were at it lets give the fire warriors range 48 large blast str 10 ap 1 that doesnt scatter, has stealth, ignore terrain etc etc.. sounds like how the necorn players wanted to keep the monolith from the old codex but make all their troops etc more powerful. Followed closely by the people whining a codex is op. good lord

We don't need it more powerful. Just game mechanics, it wouldn't work

Fluff wise, though...

Either way I'm happy with Str 10 AP 1, I was just arguing about whether or not D is more powerful than 10 because IT OBVIOUSLY IS!

So why not concern yourself with making fire warriors, vespids, kroot etc more viable? You know a balanced book.

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is it that people want to make stuff like rails guns more powerful? While were at it lets give the fire warriors range 48 large blast str 10 ap 1 that doesnt scatter, has stealth, ignore terrain etc etc.. sounds like how the necorn players wanted to keep the monolith from the old codex but make all their troops etc more powerful. Followed closely by the people whining a codex is op. good lord

We don't need it more powerful. Just game mechanics, it wouldn't work

Fluff wise, though...

Either way I'm happy with Str 10 AP 1, I was just arguing about whether or not D is more powerful than 10 because IT OBVIOUSLY IS!

So why not concern yourself with making fire warriors, vespids, kroot etc more viable? You know a balanced book.

It is vespid that need fixing. Firewarriors are decent enough, even if 8 or 9 points would make more sense, and kroot that go to ground in jungle/forest get termie saves...but vespid are just useless.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not just like Str X. With strength X there will be other rules for it because otherwise it would literally do nothing, it is not a rule. Str D is a rule however, and without any extra explanations can be used.

It really does mean over. It is for weapon too powerful to function with a numerical str value. It is basically what would happen if they wrote str 11+.

Nope. "str 11+" would not insta-kill a wraithlord.

So, sadly (for you) it does not "really mean over". It's a special rule. It does special things. If str D literally meant strength 11+, or 20, or 200, it would say so in the rule.

im2randomghgh wrote:

It is vespid that need fixing. Firewarriors are decent enough, even if 8 or 9 points would make more sense, and kroot that go to ground in jungle/forest get termie saves...but vespid are just useless.

you mean like

Vespid Stingiwngs
WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld 9 Sv4+ 95pts (5 models)
Equipment:
Neutron Blaster (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 12")
Tau Armor
Rending claws
Wings
Rules:
Hit and Run, Fleet, Skilled Flyer, Melee Attacks count as rending, Jump Pack

Squad may benefit from markerlights while the Sergeant is alive
Add up to 5 more stingwings..........+16pts/model
Sergeant may take:
Locator Beacon.............................+10pts
1 Member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
Neutrino Flux beam.......................+15pts (S4 AP3 Template, the spray weakens the overall strength of the bolts while providing a larger surface area)
1 other member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
TL Neutron Pistols (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 6", +1 atk in CC)

dbsamurai wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

It is vespid that need fixing. Firewarriors are decent enough, even if 8 or 9 points would make more sense, and kroot that go to ground in jungle/forest get termie saves...but vespid are just useless.

you mean like

Vespid Stingiwngs
WS3 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I5 A2 Ld 9 Sv4+ 95pts (5 models)
Equipment:
Neutron Blaster (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 12")
Tau Armor
Rending claws
Wings
Rules:
Hit and Run, Fleet, Skilled Flyer, Melee Attacks count as rending, Jump Pack

Squad may benefit from markerlights while the Sergeant is alive
Add up to 5 more stingwings..........+16pts/model
Sergeant may take:
Locator Beacon.............................+10pts
1 Member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
Neutrino Flux beam.......................+15pts (S4 AP3 Template, the spray weakens the overall strength of the bolts while providing a larger surface area)
1 other member of the squad may replace his Neutron Blaster with:
TL Neutron Pistols (S5 AP3 Assault 2 Rg 6", +1 atk in CC)

I want to impregnate your rules for them

They're beautiful. If stingwings were like that, it'd be awesome.

What are people's opinions on fixing Fire Warriors by making Pathfinders a bit more useful?

Pathfinders - Xpts
BS - 4
WS - 3
S - 3
T - 3
W - 1
I - 2
A - 1
Ld - 7
Sv - 4+

Unit Composition - 4 Pathfinders and 1 Shas'Ui
Unit Type - Infantry

Wargear:
Pulse Carbine with Markerlight Target Designator
Photon Grenades

Special Rules:
Scouts
Unique Target Identification Protocol: Pathfinder units are trained to scout ahead and provide recon, as well as using their markerlights to designate multiple targets for elimination. Any Pathfinders who are firing their markerlights may choose to fire at any enemy unit, provided they can see it and it is in range, regardless of what their squad mates are firing at. Declare which enemy units are being targeted by which Pathfinders before rolling to hit.

<insert options (like up to 5 more pathfinders for Xpts here>

Pathfinders are supposed to be the eyes of the army, and are trusted to designate targets, yet they only have the skill of a standard fire warrior. Surely the troops you need most to be decent judges of distance will be trained as such, or at least have the technology for it (which can be explained away as being in the beta stage of field testing, being rolled out to those who need it after extensive alpha testing on veterans only).

With BS4, they can provide more reliable markerlights, with 6 Pathfinders from the current codex producing 3 markerlight hits, and 6 from this revision producing 4, and being able to produce them on up to 6 targets (with a little reliability, getting more reliable with fewer targets).

The main issue with Fire Warriors is that they need markerlight support to reach their potential, and being able to target seperate units without needing target locks (only available to the Shas'Ui or RR PFs currently) can be a great boon, allowing them to provide FWs with a few markerlights, and Crisis Suits etc. with a few, instead of having to provide one or the other with too many.

The lack of reliability when spread out also means it's harder to take advantage of, sure you could hit 6 targets with a markerlight each, but will you use them all? Do you want to risk missing the ones you really need to hit with? A unit of 8 tackling 3 units could potentially provide 2 squads of FWs with 2 markerlights each, and a squad of crisis suits with 4, chances are it'll be more like 1, 1, 3, but it's still something.

Up firewarrior squad size to 20, add emp grenades for free.
Let devilfish transport upto 20 + 2 drones.
Give devilfish "Dust off" upgrade; unit that disembarks may move, but may not assault.

Pathfinders, BS4, and may split fire with marker lights, stealth and stealth transport.

Marker light drones fire as their own unit, seperate in firing sequence and targeting from the unit they are attached to.

Larger squads for firewarrirors let more warriors take advantage of marker light hits. The "Dust Off" lets them spread out a bit and not get totally hosed by blasts.


Skyray needs some love too.

-Matt

Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Actually, one mechanic I have always wanted to see represented was the fact that IRL, railguns get more powerful the further away you fire them from. Maybe after 72" it gains ordinance?

im2randomghgh wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Actually, one mechanic I have always wanted to see represented was the fact that IRL, railguns get more powerful the further away you fire them from. Maybe after 72" it gains ordinance?

!? What I know of physics says that that shouldn't be possible...

chaos0xomega wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Actually, one mechanic I have always wanted to see represented was the fact that IRL, railguns get more powerful the further away you fire them from. Maybe after 72" it gains ordinance?

!? What I know of physics says that that shouldn't be possible...

Hyper velocity weaponry fired on a ballistic trajectory.

Look it up.

IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

So you know one known variable in the equation.. That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

So you know one known variable in the equation.. That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol

Umm...the original point was that they get more powerful using a ballistic trajectory at a greater distance. Which they do. Not sure what you're talking about.

Sounds like the weapon that get stronger as it gets farther already exists.. its called a conversion beamer

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Not sure I agree with this. I think its fine the way it is. The reason zoanthropes have lance is because its at 18in, railguns are 72. I think that would be a little too powerful, unless you SERIOUSLY upped the points cost. iirc zoans dont have melta. You can take 9 railguns if you squad up the broadsides, and theyre twinlinked. Sure you can still only kill 3 vehicles a turn, but unless youre opponent if fielding 9 LRBTs or something, the rocket pods etc can take care of some of the more lighty armored targets.

Draigo wrote:Sounds like the weapon that get stronger as it gets farther already exists.. its called a conversion beamer

The difference eing that if you fired a railgun point blank it would still be 10-1, and if you used a ballistic trajectory you could easily be str D.

With the way it is now, you could potentially have a guardsman survive a direct hit from a railgun. Which just wouldn't happen. Check out this quote:

"One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other its exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty metres from the wreck."

So you essentially want it like the death ray that can insta grease anything it shoots at? The prob is if you guys keep wanting power to creep up there will be another 4th eiditon where the entire line is made into SOB lol

Draigo wrote:So you essentially want it like the death ray that can insta grease anything it shoots at? The prob is if you guys keep wanting power to creep up there will be another 4th eiditon where the entire line is made into SOB lol

Well chances are you're not shooting anything from further than 72" unless it's apoc...

Also, I didn't say I actually wanted this, I just said it would be more accurate physics-wise.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:IRL? really? well IRL theres no space elves, glittery blue rainbow birdmen, fish people, art collecting machine men, warp travel, sphess marheens, or anything of the sort sooo IRL just isn't a good enough reason. Ask Mephiston.. he dropped a building on himself and came out UBER!

Well railguns DO exist in real life, and so we can draw parallels.

Only as far as you can draw spaceship warfare and bioships. You have no idea how a rail gun would effect "living metal" or any other fictional material.

But we DO know how they travel through the air, and how they affect flesh/stone etc.

So you know one known variable in the equation.. That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol

Umm...the original point was that they get more powerful using a ballistic trajectory at a greater distance. Which they do. Not sure what you're talking about.

A/ Railguns are real, and what im2random is saying is correct, although i'm not sure they go faster/do more damage as they go further.

B/ draigo: go on wikipedia, search 'railgun' and scroll down to the equations. read them, and then try to say "That doesnt solve an equation outside of theoretical math classes lol but even then the answer is an unknown value of something like -a^3 lol "

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

the railgun is already the strongest weapon in the game. Zoanthropes have lance they dont have melta. Also, you can take 18 railguns maxed, 9 shots cause they're tl. I have a list like that, it kills any armor spam army.

The reason railguns gain velocity (and thus accelerate generating more force) when fired IN ATMOSPHERE is because gravity pulls them in a parabolic trajectory, so that like a spaceship slingshotting around the earth, at long rang a high velocity round accelerates into the gravity of the plannet. In essence it's like shooting a bullet past an electromagnet. the bullet curves thru the magnetic field and impacts with greater force than normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:What are people's opinions on fixing Fire Warriors by making Pathfinders a bit more useful?


Pathfinders are supposed to be the eyes of the army, and are trusted to designate targets, yet they only have the skill of a standard fire warrior. Surely the troops you need most to be decent judges of distance will be trained as such, or at least have the technology for it (which can be explained away as being in the beta stage of field testing, being rolled out to those who need it after extensive alpha testing on veterans only).

With BS4, they can provide more reliable markerlights, with 6 Pathfinders from the current codex producing 3 markerlight hits, and 6 from this revision producing 4, and being able to produce them on up to 6 targets (with a little reliability, getting more reliable with fewer targets).

GW will never give them BS4 though because of their whole "we have bad depth perception" excuse. The option then is to make them more like scouts with sniper rifles in an SM army. They're for identifying targets and striking as a vanguard unit. that's why I included their barrage launcher thing, it's the sort of thing that their scout move could really take advantage of against horde armies, because turn one they could be dropping templates on them. I agree too that there is need of greater markerlight support, but I think it would be better to spread it out. Give a few markerlights to a few squads to emphasize synergy, since at present you're placing all your eggs in one 8 man squad as far as markerlights go, or else giving marker drones to stealth teams, neither of which is very cost effective. Instead start giving everyone some markerlights, a little extra something to fire off if they need to, or marker drones so that squads can be their own markerlights. that would let pathfinders focus on being the "valkyrie's mark"ers, striking first and eliminating key elements of an opponants force like fire dragons

im2randomghgh wrote:

dbsamurai wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

I want to impregnate your rules for them

They're beautiful. If stingwings were like that, it'd be awesome.

I posted a whole codex on page 2...I find it's what makes stingwings useful. They're basically tau assault marines so they should be tau assault marines. Give them anti MEQ weapons and good CC and make them SCARY AS gak like assault marines are now.

Reply by: Avatar 720 - click to view full reply 

35785

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/04 18:45:10

Post by: Avatar 720

GW will never give them BS4 though because of their whole "we have bad depth perception" excuse.

I already gave them a valid reason in the form of using new technology that has entered a wider testing stage, possibly a better targeting array.

Targeting arrays were previously kept for battlesuits, but after extensive field testing on veterans, they have been rolled out to Pathfinder teams for further testing.

Instant BS4 excuse.

Reply by: dbsamurai - click to view full reply 

28659

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/05 07:50:51

Post by: dbsamurai

Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

Reply by: Soo'Vah'Cha - click to view full reply 

26241

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/05 07:59:30

Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha

dbsamurai wrote:Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

Actually the targeting array CAN be taken on stealth suits,pg35 (each member may select one battlesuit support system). and on pg25 targeting array is listed as a battlesuit support system.

Reply by: Cerebrium - click to view full reply 

33586

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/05 09:09:21

Post by: Cerebrium

The railgun is the best gun the Tau have.

Want to make something players want? Make the Pulse rifle or carbine good.

(I've always liked the idea of making the rifle Assault 1/Heavy 2 and the carbine Assault 2.)

Reply by: dbsamurai - click to view full reply 

28659

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/05 21:19:41

Post by: dbsamurai

that sort of profile is a bit to complicated for the current direction GW is heading though. Making the carbine assault 2 however is a logical choice, after all its supposed to be viable for tau on the move, and right now it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

dbsamurai wrote:Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

Actually the targeting array CAN be taken on stealth suits,pg35 (each member may select one battlesuit support system). and on pg25 targeting array is listed as a battlesuit support system.

I thought targetting arrays were hard wired and stealth suits could only take hard points systems like drone controllers, and that if they did they all had to take the same one.

Reply by: Avatar 720 - click to view full reply 

35785

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/05 21:32:32

Post by: Avatar 720

dbsamurai wrote:Yes but targetting arrays are large and bulky (hence why they can't be taken by stealth suits). I'm not saying there aren't ways you could justify it, I'm just saying GW has said they never will do it. =/

As previously mentioned, Stealth Suits can take TAs.

Just because they are currently big and bulky doesn't mean they can't be streamlined and integrated into helmets or specific equipment later on.

GW hasn't said anywhere they will never do it, they haven't even mentioned its size. On Battlesuits they mention it's a relatively new application of the same, previously only vehicle-mounted, technology. There is nothing that outright mentions the size. The fact that the arrays can be streamlined for battlesuit use speaks volumes about the capbility to the Tau to modify current technology, and with the enlisting of more alien races, there's nothing to say they can't pinch some of their ideas either.

I thought targetting arrays were hard wired and stealth suits could only take hard points systems like drone controllers, and that if they did they all had to take the same one.

HW TAs don't currently exist (also, you can get HW DCs, they aren't purely hard-point), they're hard-point support systems at the moment. Stealth Suits also have the condition that if one member takes a support system then they all have to take one, but it doesn't have to be the same one.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/05 22:38:15

Post by: im2randomghgh

Avatar 720 wrote:

GW will never give them BS4 though because of their whole "we have bad depth perception" excuse.

I already gave them a valid reason in the form of using new technology that has entered a wider testing stage, possibly a better targeting array.

Targeting arrays were previously kept for battlesuits, but after extensive field testing on veterans, they have been rolled out to Pathfinder teams for further testing.

Instant BS4 excuse.

Or, the easier way...retcon.

Also, they gave them bad depth perception and then gave them multi-spectral vision so their excuse has actually become "they can't aim because their eyesight is better than humans"

Reply by: dbsamurai - click to view full reply 

28659

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 01:22:25

Post by: dbsamurai

no the excuse still stands they can't aim because they can't tell how far away something is. The simple fact is that while yes they haven't explicitly said "firewarriors will never be bs4" they've more than given a plethora of excuses. And while Ward does indeed love the retcon (necrons anyone?) given GW's love of SM over xenos I think it's safe to say they'll never give squads with rg 30 S5 AP5 weapons standard bs 4 because then they'd be better than astartes at shooting. can't have that. In a more logical sense: any tau old enough to have become a veteran is either a sergeant (which in game almost never have different bs than their squads) an honor guardsman (who do have bs4 but are only around ethereals) or a battle suit pilot (who should get bs 4 anyways because they're in a robot with targetting systems..god that irks me). Suffice to say that the standard vets that exist in armies like IG are almost never foot infantry in a tau army. Still, suits (stealth crisis and broadside) should totally all have bs 4. But you give bs 4 to firewarriors you'll make them better than SM at shooting (so GW will never do it, even dire avengers have to take an upgrade to shoot better than astartes and their shooting comes with drawbacks) and you'll make them capable of destroying even the most stubborn blob squad before that unit can charge
30 guys at 30" vs 12 FW
round 1 12 shots, 8 hit, 6.66 wound, 6.66 die because AP5
round 2, squad has moved 6", still out of range, ran 3", 12 shots, 8 hit, 6.66 wound, 13.32 dead total (already almost half the squad)
round 3 squad moves 6" runs 4", rapid fire 24 shots, 16 hit, 13 wound, 26.32 dead (leaving 4 guys before they're even in charge range)
assuming cover, more guys will live but take longer to get there due to difficult terrain.
giving FW BS4 and a pulse rifle standard would make them the most beligerant sons of bitches on earth to any non SM army.

Reply by: Avatar 720 - click to view full reply 

35785

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 01:37:46

Post by: Avatar 720

Congratulations, you created a detailed response about why FWs shouldn't be BS4, despite the fact i've been talking about Pathfinders.

The excuse does not stand, if they can create arrays for battlesuits from vehicle systems, it's not that unbelievable to suggest that they can create experimental arrays for Pathfinders from the battlesuit systems. All they're doing is downsizing and compacting.

If you'd told the inventor of the computer that it's possible to get handheld devices far more powerful than the behemoths he'd just created, he'd have laughed at you, yet here we are with computers in our phones, and music collections that clip to your belt, and in the grand scheme of things, it didn't take us very long at all to do it.

Downsizing and compacting isn't impossible, and it won't always take thousands of years to develop. It's very plausible to suggest that, especially with the aid of other races, the Tau managed to integrate a lot of new technology in a short space of time, which fits their background as a young empire that is quick to develop and adapt.

Reply by: Soo'Vah'Cha - click to view full reply 

26241

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 02:06:00

Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha

I would love to see Pathfinders truly become the "special" forces of the Tau, give them one more possible Railrifle (total of 4) so it can be 4 shooters 4 spotters, or carbines, or even Pulse rifles, all with target locks, so maximum versitility, and any non rail rifle pathfinder has a markerlight.

Now BS 4 on pathfinders would be nice, and somewhat fluffy if they did indeed make them a elite/vet unit, personally I have zero problems with BS 3, on firewarriors, and make it work on the Pathfinders, but would not turn my nose up at a BS increase.

Just give me more versitility and options, and I will be a happy Shas'O

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 02:17:23

Post by: CpatTom

Gue'Vesa'O?

That would be the correct technical term, if a Human did take command of a Tau force fighting for the Greater Good, or did I miss something.

Reply by: dbsamurai - click to view full reply 

28659

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 03:14:06

Post by: dbsamurai

Avatar 720 wrote:Congratulations, you created a detailed response about why FWs shouldn't be BS4, despite the fact i've been talking about Pathfinders.

The excuse does not stand, if they can create arrays for battlesuits from vehicle systems, it's not that unbelievable to suggest that they can create experimental arrays for Pathfinders from the battlesuit systems. All they're doing is downsizing and compacting.

If you'd told the inventor of the computer that it's possible to get handheld devices far more powerful than the behemoths he'd just created, he'd have laughed at you, yet here we are with computers in our phones, and music collections that clip to your belt, and in the grand scheme of things, it didn't take us very long at all to do it.

Downsizing and compacting isn't impossible, and it won't always take thousands of years to develop. It's very plausible to suggest that, especially with the aid of other races, the Tau managed to integrate a lot of new technology in a short space of time, which fits their background as a young empire that is quick to develop and adapt.

Yes I know. Firewarriors at BS4 is scary isn't it. Now let's think here, 8 shots from a markerlight at bs 4 means 5.33 hit. that means rounding down we get 5 hits, 2 go to a fire warrior squad to buff it to BS 5 (even scarier!) and the other 3 go to subtracting from cover. Now you've got 8 guys who can make sure that no blob squad on earth can get across the table.
A better fix would be something like

Rules:
Scout, Infiltrate, Stealth

Add up to 4 more models.......+9pts/model
Add up to 2 Marker Drones.....+15pts/model
Sergeant may take:
EMP grenades......................+5pts
Bonding knife......................+5pts (squad may regroup below half strength) ignores negative LD modifiers? or too op...
Scatterfield Array..................+15pts (portable disruption field generator applies to whole squad, additional +1 to squad cover save, minimum cover save 6+)
up to 3 members of the squad may replace their Pulse Carbines and Markerlights with:
Rail Rifle..............................+10pts/model
Barrage Launcher...................+15pts/model (S4 AP5 Heavy3 Small Blast Rg 24", multiple missile launcher akin to an SMS or a missile pod armed with cluster bombs)
Squad may take a devilfish at a 35 point discount
Squad may take blacksun filters at +1pt/model

cheaper cost makes them more viable, cheaper devilfish makes taking one more usefull. keep their markerlights the same but let them take marker drones so that no matter what they'll be able to move and shoot markerlights. let them take a template weapon so they can strike first turn at enemy hordes, something that the tau are severly lacking in.

I don't have a problem with your rationale. the fact that i can now play OoT on the 3ds with better graphics than the n64 it first came out on is just a confirmation of your theory (as is the scatterfield array above). It's just that putting markerlights at bs4 will make them wildly more powerful, which while beneficial for us, will mean that they're more expensive and that they're rediculously powerful against armies that need cover (ig, nids, orks) or armies that can't stand a fusilade of fire (SM), as well as armies with a lot of light vehicles, since massed bs 5 pulse rifle fire will glance the hell out of AV11 and has a very good chance of wrecking AV10 through sheer volume.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 03:39:45

Post by: im2randomghgh

You want to know how to fix FW? Make them 8 or nine points, and make Bonding Knives standard.

Reply by: Ledabot - click to view full reply 

34612

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 11:52:59

Post by: Ledabot

dbsamurai, that was a very long wishlist. I apporve of most of it, and I ike what you did with the hammerhead. It wouldn't hurt to give the diffrent tanks code names like the suits. The skyray being the main reason behind the idea, for the missile tank ofcourse.

There is rumered to be 2 new races in the next dex, but there will definatly not be any humans, I don't really see what they bring except to be a meat shield, and that doesn't fit well with Tau fighting style. Fluff wise anyway. Demiurg are comfirmed but the other is still open for discussion.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 18:37:38

Post by: CpatTom

Railguns should insta-gib T6.

Yeah.

Reply by: dbsamurai - click to view full reply 

28659

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 20:04:15

Post by: dbsamurai

Ledabot wrote:dbsamurai, that was a very long wishlist. I apporve of most of it, and I ike what you did with the hammerhead. It wouldn't hurt to give the diffrent tanks code names like the suits. The skyray being the main reason behind the idea, for the missile tank ofcourse.

There is rumered to be 2 new races in the next dex, but there will definatly not be any humans, I don't really see what they bring except to be a meat shield, and that doesn't fit well with Tau fighting style. Fluff wise anyway. Demiurg are comfirmed but the other is still open for discussion.

Thank you for your kind words however lol It's not a wishlist it's a codex my buddies an i have been playtesting I follow those rumor threads too and they do look interesting, especially the heavy vespid and the demiurg, but until I see codex I'm not getting my hopes up, just because when vespid first came out I was all like OH MAN!!! and then I looked at their actual stats and they sucked I do agree with you, I couldn't really find a use for humans except as true snipers over a sniper drone team, so I just sort of threw a guardsman squad in there...=/

Reply by: Avatar 720 - click to view full reply 

35785

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 21:35:15

Post by: Avatar 720

dbsamurai wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Congratulations, you created a detailed response about why FWs shouldn't be BS4, despite the fact i've been talking about Pathfinders.

The excuse does not stand, if they can create arrays for battlesuits from vehicle systems, it's not that unbelievable to suggest that they can create experimental arrays for Pathfinders from the battlesuit systems. All they're doing is downsizing and compacting.

If you'd told the inventor of the computer that it's possible to get handheld devices far more powerful than the behemoths he'd just created, he'd have laughed at you, yet here we are with computers in our phones, and music collections that clip to your belt, and in the grand scheme of things, it didn't take us very long at all to do it.

Downsizing and compacting isn't impossible, and it won't always take thousands of years to develop. It's very plausible to suggest that, especially with the aid of other races, the Tau managed to integrate a lot of new technology in a short space of time, which fits their background as a young empire that is quick to develop and adapt.

Yes I know. Firewarriors at BS4 is scary isn't it. Now let's think here, 8 shots from a markerlight at bs 4 means 5.33 hit. that means rounding down we get 5 hits, 2 go to a fire warrior squad to buff it to BS 5 (even scarier!) and the other 3 go to subtracting from cover. Now you've got 8 guys who can make sure that no blob squad on earth can get across the table.

No, it isn't scary, I couldn't care less about the BS of FWs.

8 PF markerlights going on 1 squad to increase FW shooting is far from scary either. Currently you'd have 4 hits and you'd only leave a 6+ cover save, which might as well not exist at all. 12 FWs benefiting from 5 lights vs a guardsman squad of 10 sees:
9.996 hits
8.326668 wounds
8 dead guardsmen.

With 4 lights it's:
9.996 hits
8.326668 wounds
6.936114444, or 7, dead guardsmen.

Either way, the guardsmen are:
Taking a morale check
Under half strength
All but useless, with 5 lights they can keep 1 HWT, with 4 lights, they can keep the HWT and 1 special weapon/lasgun/sergeant. Is that 1 model enough to make a difference? No, probably not. Besides, what is one small IG unit when they have enough firepower left to demolish our army 10x over?

5 lights vs 4 lights does not produce a large enough gap for it to be considered as scary as you make it out to be. Against 4+ saves or better it's the same no matter which version you use, against cover saves of 5+ or less, it's also the same no matter what, against 4+ cover the BS4 lights win out by a small margin. Against an Ork horde or a Gaunt blob, what will 1 extra model per shooting phase do? A mob of 30 boyz takes the 9.996 hits, takes 6.667332 wounds, and takes 7 casualties with BS4 lights on them, or 6 (5.553887556) casualties with BS3 lights on them and standing in 4+ cover. What has that extra casualty done to the orks? Nothing. Not a thing. They're still fearless, they're still deadly, all you've done is killed 1 6pt boy extra.

Now, if you'll allow me to explain just why I gave Pathfinders BS4, it's not to solely better Fire Warriors. Your scenario requires every single markerlight going on FW shooting, which is exactly what we currently want to fix; MLs right now need to go fully to FWs, or fully to battlesuits. The BS4 PFs are supposed to take advantage of their split fire rule to reliably light up multiple units. 8 MLs currently cannot split fire, and you end up aiding either FWs or Battlesuits. With the BS4 pathfinders, you can split them to get better coverage. 4 for FWs means that 3 (2.668) lights hit, and 4 for other units can boost battlesuit BS or remove cover for them.

THAT is why I suggested the pathfinders. I don't care about what FWs do if you hoard markerlights for them, what I want to do is have a more reliable ML system that can benefit FWs without having to give them straight BS4, but can also benefit the other units in the army without potentially game-breaking sacrifices.

Reply by: chaos0xomega - click to view full reply 

7075

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 22:28:21

Post by: chaos0xomega

Billagio wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Not sure I agree with this. I think its fine the way it is. The reason zoanthropes have lance is because its at 18in, railguns are 72. I think that would be a little too powerful, unless you SERIOUSLY upped the points cost. iirc zoans dont have melta. You can take 9 railguns if you squad up the broadsides, and theyre twinlinked. Sure you can still only kill 3 vehicles a turn, but unless youre opponent if fielding 9 LRBTs or something, the rocket pods etc can take care of some of the more lighty armored targets.

But those railguns are 1/4 of the size, and they are a different weapon IMO, there should be rules to differentiate between broadsides and hammerheads weaponry (you'll notice I specifically stated HAMMERHEAD railgun in my post).

Besides, people need a valid reason to take HH's over Broadsides anyway.

Reply by: CpatTom - click to view full reply 

44374

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 23:06:32

Post by: CpatTom

chaos0xomega wrote:

Billagio wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Not sure I agree with this. I think its fine the way it is. The reason zoanthropes have lance is because its at 18in, railguns are 72. I think that would be a little too powerful, unless you SERIOUSLY upped the points cost. iirc zoans dont have melta. You can take 9 railguns if you squad up the broadsides, and theyre twinlinked. Sure you can still only kill 3 vehicles a turn, but unless youre opponent if fielding 9 LRBTs or something, the rocket pods etc can take care of some of the more lighty armored targets.

But those railguns are 1/4 of the size, and they are a different weapon IMO, there should be rules to differentiate between broadsides and hammerheads weaponry (you'll notice I specifically stated HAMMERHEAD railgun in my post).

Besides, people need a valid reason to take HH's over Broadsides anyway.

The sub round an Av 13 4+ coversave mobile BLoS terrain not good enough? HH aren't for the solid shot, thats 88's job, being twinlinked already. HH are sub round pie tossing specialists.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/06 23:15:03

Post by: im2randomghgh

CpatTom wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Billagio wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Personally, I don't see anything wrong making the Hammerhead Railgun in a honking powerful weapon (S10 AP1 Lance, etc.), IIRC Zoanthropes can do the same thing at 18", and I believe theres is Melta. The Railgun should certainly be a more powerful weapon. You can only take 3 of them max, which means at best 3 dead targets a turn. Your opponent is probably fielding 5 times that number of vehicles given todays meta, so it wouldn't be particularly game-breaking.

Not sure I agree with this. I think its fine the way it is. The reason zoanthropes have lance is because its at 18in, railguns are 72. I think that would be a little too powerful, unless you SERIOUSLY upped the points cost. iirc zoans dont have melta. You can take 9 railguns if you squad up the broadsides, and theyre twinlinked. Sure you can still only kill 3 vehicles a turn, but unless youre opponent if fielding 9 LRBTs or something, the rocket pods etc can take care of some of the more lighty armored targets.

But those railguns are 1/4 of the size, and they are a different weapon IMO, there should be rules to differentiate between broadsides and hammerheads weaponry (you'll notice I specifically stated HAMMERHEAD railgun in my post).

Besides, people need a valid reason to take HH's over Broadsides anyway.

The sub round an Av 13 4+ coversave mobile BLoS terrain not good enough? HH aren't for the solid shot, thats 88's job, being twinlinked already. HH are sub round pie tossing specialists.

Which is why we need a legitimate option for solid-shotting with the HH. It is not a lance, so using the lance rule would make no sense, but adding ordinance or a railgun-specific rule would be nice.

Reply by: chaos0xomega - click to view full reply 

7075

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/07 00:02:16

Post by: chaos0xomega

How does lance not make sense? Lance weapons DONT NEED to have the word "lance" associated with their names, think outside the box.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/07 02:31:33

Post by: im2randomghgh

chaos0xomega wrote:How does lance not make sense? Lance weapons DONT NEED to have the word "lance" associated with their names, think outside the box.

But it ISN'T a lance. A lance is a continuous beam weapon in 40k, IIRC.

Railgun is neither continuous nor a beam weapon.

Applying the melta rule would make just about as much sense.

One thing that could work is rolling 3D3 for vehicle pen.

Reply by: chaos0xomega - click to view full reply 

7075

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/07 05:56:58

Post by: chaos0xomega

3d3 would be hawt!
As for lance, the BRB refers to it as a beam weapon, though it makes no specification that it be continuous, just that it is powerful enough to bore through armor regardless of thickness. So, if we follow that description strictly to the letter the railgun wouldn't qualify, but GW has been known to loosely interpret things so its a possibility. Also, if we suspend a bit of disbelief, we could reason that a Tau railgun (esp. a hammerhead railgun) accelerates the projectile to near the speed of light, at which point the projectile would begin to function as a particle stream. If that is the case, then (as I understand it), you could in fact consider it to be a "particle beam" in which case it would fulfill the requirement for lance status.

Reply by: dbsamurai - click to view full reply 

28659

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/07 09:00:04

Post by: dbsamurai

Avatar 720 wrote:

No, it isn't scary, I couldn't care less about the BS of FWs.

8 PF markerlights going on 1 squad to increase FW shooting is far from scary either. Currently you'd have 4 hits and you'd only leave a 6+ cover save, which might as well not exist at all. 12 FWs benefiting from 5 lights vs a guardsman squad of 10 sees:
9.996 hits
8.326668 wounds
8 dead guardsmen.

With 4 lights it's:
9.996 hits
8.326668 wounds
6.936114444, or 7, dead guardsmen.

Either way, the guardsmen are:
Taking a morale check
Under half strength
All but useless, with 5 lights they can keep 1 HWT, with 4 lights, they can keep the HWT and 1 special weapon/lasgun/sergeant. Is that 1 model enough to make a difference? No, probably not. Besides, what is one small IG unit when they have enough firepower left to demolish our army 10x over?

it will make the difference, because that squad missing both it's heavy weaopn and its special weapon (or unthinkably its sergeant) means you've essentially nullified the entire purpose of taking a 10 man IG squad. further against veterans that means you can kill some of their special weapons in one round of shooting, taking out three special weapons (melta vets anyone?) instead of one. The additional wounds also make playing wound allocation more difficult, something that multiwound squads like warriors would loath.

Avatar 720 wrote:Against an Ork horde or a Gaunt blob, what will 1 extra model per shooting phase do? A mob of 30 boyz takes the 9.996 hits, takes 6.667332 wounds, and takes 7 casualties with BS4 lights on them, or 6 (5.553887556) casualties with BS3 lights on them and standing in 4+ cover. What has that extra casualty done to the orks? Nothing. Not a thing. They're still fearless, they're still deadly, all you've done is killed 1 6pt boy extra.
.

yes which against shootas is an extra 2 shots and against sluggs is an extra 4 melee attacks. When the squads are designed to be large enough to soak up wounds, every additional model you can kill helps. in addition, the fact that 5 markerlights can be used to buff two squads BS and still take away any sort of cover saves the unfortunate sons of bitches being shot at could use means that you can now have 2 squads (at present bs 3) of crisis suits pumping AP 2 rounds into a tac squad and have them have no way to defend against it. Or say they're bs 4 in the new codex, you could pop them to BS 5 and ensure that you kill the entire squad in a single shooting round. Against tanks you could eliminate smoke launchers altogether while still giving hammerheads the abiltiy to all but garuntee a hit. That simple fact right there, that you can, with a single squad, eliminate the greatest strenght of AV11 spam (mass smoke launchers as armor providing cover for one another across the field) while still allowing the squads firing to be doing so at balistic skills greater than even space marine special characters means that that one little BS boost to pathfinders would make them one of the most overpowered squads available, especially at their current price of 12 pts. You're talking a squad of 8 guys who can remove the defenses of the most common tournie build. At present, that one less markerlight means that there is a trade off in cover vs bs boosting. Add an extra markerlight shot for free and suddenly that trade off goes away, you can basically garuntee whatever hole gets targetted goes bye bye lol and as awesome as that would be, it would also make pathfinders rediculously overpowered. I mean look at the present cost of an extra markerlight. at it's cheapest its an additional 10 points. upping their bs would be giving them that extra markerlight for free. And as exerienced as I'm sure you are I bet you also know how powerful even that one extra markerlight shot, especially if its free, can be.

Reply by: im2randomghgh - click to view full reply 

40927

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/07 13:03:58

Post by: im2randomghgh

chaos0xomega wrote:3d3 would be hawt!
As for lance, the BRB refers to it as a beam weapon, though it makes no specification that it be continuous, just that it is powerful enough to bore through armor regardless of thickness. So, if we follow that description strictly to the letter the railgun wouldn't qualify, but GW has been known to loosely interpret things so its a possibility. Also, if we suspend a bit of disbelief, we could reason that a Tau railgun (esp. a hammerhead railgun) accelerates the projectile to near the speed of light, at which point the projectile would begin to function as a particle stream. If that is the case, then (as I understand it), you could in fact consider it to be a "particle beam" in which case it would fulfill the requirement for lance status.

Their railrounds do NOT go at the speed of light, they go ~8 times the speed of sound. Hyper velocity=Mach5+

And they would work so fundamentally different to any other weapon that they really do need more rules.

Reply by: Avatar 720 - click to view full reply 

35785

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/07 17:44:18

Post by: Avatar 720

it will make the difference, because that squad missing both it's heavy weaopn and its special weapon (or unthinkably its sergeant) means you've essentially nullified the entire purpose of taking a 10 man IG squad. further against veterans that means you can kill some of their special weapons in one round of shooting, taking out three special weapons (melta vets anyone?) instead of one. The additional wounds also make playing wound allocation more difficult, something that multiwound squads like warriors would loath.

You cannot kill of both the HWT and a SW and somehow leave both of them alive by killing off 1 model less, you'd have to kill off 3 models less to keep both.

I have already displayed how its 'purpose' is all but left untouched, leaving two models left leaves the HWT on 1 wound and the sergeant, 3 models left only gives you another special weapon or the hwt's other wound. Either way, the HWT will remain unless you purposefully remove it, and that it not affected by the pulse rifle shots.

Against Veterans, when will you be able to shoot them outside their Chimera? You'd have to kill that first. Also, you're basing your counter-argument on terrible wound allocation. At most the veterans lose 1 special weapon and keep two alive against the BS4 marked rifles, I don't know where you're getting 3 instead of 1 from.

There is also the fact that if the IG fail their morale check (other markerlights can lower Ld if need be) then they're running and unable to regroup no matter which markerlights you use, thanks to being under half strength.

It also has no difference against multi-wound models with a 4+ save or better or in 5+ cover or worse. Ork Nobz rarely leave home without 'eavy armour or a bike, so they're fine. Tyranid Warriors come with a 4+ as standard so they're fine. Nobody uses Ogyrns, but if they did, in 4+ cover they'd take 1 wound more, but lose a model either way, and since they're all the same apart from the Bone 'Ead, you can't play WAS with them anyway. Grotesques are essentially the same, with only 1 model being able to take something different. Enemy Crisis Suits have a 3+ save. Paladins have a 2+ save. Unless you manage to find someone who uses a ragtag mob of Nobz without 'eavy armour or bikes, then WAS never come into play, so it's quite a useless point.

yes which against shootas is an extra 2 shots and against sluggs is an extra 4 melee attacks. When the squads are designed to be large enough to soak up wounds, every additional model you can kill helps. in addition, the fact that 5 markerlights can be used to buff two squads BS and still take away any sort of cover saves the unfortunate sons of bitches being shot at could use means that you can now have 2 squads (at present bs 3) of crisis suits pumping AP 2 rounds into a tac squad and have them have no way to defend against it. Or say they're bs 4 in the new codex, you could pop them to BS 5 and ensure that you kill the entire squad in a single shooting round. Against tanks you could eliminate smoke launchers altogether while still giving hammerheads the abiltiy to all but garuntee a hit. That simple fact right there, that you can, with a single squad, eliminate the greatest strenght of AV11 spam (mass smoke launchers as armor providing cover for one another across the field) while still allowing the squads firing to be doing so at balistic skills greater than even space marine special characters means that that one little BS boost to pathfinders would make them one of the most overpowered squads available, especially at their current price of 12 pts. You're talking a squad of 8 guys who can remove the defenses of the most common tournie build. At present, that one less markerlight means that there is a trade off in cover vs bs boosting. Add an extra markerlight shot for free and suddenly that trade off goes away, you can basically garuntee whatever hole gets targetted goes bye bye lol and as awesome as that would be, it would also make pathfinders rediculously overpowered. I mean look at the present cost of an extra markerlight. at it's cheapest its an additional 10 points. upping their bs would be giving them that extra markerlight for free. And as exerienced as I'm sure you are I bet you also know how powerful even that one extra markerlight shot, especially if its free, can be.

First off, please use spacing.

Secondly, what is 2 shoota shots or 4 extra melee attacks? The Ork Mob still has a bucketload of attacks. It's a drop in the ocean. As for your comment on killing models designed to soak up wound, yes, every little does help, it helps them, every other wound they take means they're doing their job better. 1 Ork extra dead from a mob of 30 makes no difference.

With the markerlights, that is the point, but you are grossly exaggerating the damage. Plasma rifles are 1 shot unless you get close, so the max casualties are 6. From 6 BS4 suits, plasma rifles do:
4 hits
3.332 wounds, for 3 dead marines with no cover saves. Considering that it took 372pts worth of crisis suits to cause that, i'd say it's an exceedingly fair trade-off on the part of the marines.

If they are BS4 in the new codex, then they do the following:
5 hits
4.615 wounds, for 4 dead marines with no cover saves. Yep, a whole dead squad there. And it only took more than double the cost of the tac squad, not counting the markerlights.

Rapid-firing will cause more damage, but again, you spent more than double (more than triple if you count the pathfinders) on doing it, and it's a result i'd damned well expect for that cost.

You're exaggerating things greatly at this point, and it does not help your argument.

Against tanks, you can eliminate smoke launchers currently. I don't see your point. Using the BS3 markerlights you score 4 hits, that removes smoke completely and buffs the HH to BS5. Using the BS4 markerlights, you can buff a broadside squad to BS4 in case the tank doesn't die, or you can choose not to waste it and use it on crisis suits or FW shooting instead. By your logic here, Pathfinders need to be BS2.

From all this, I fail to see where BS4 Pathfinders are 'overpowered' in any respect.

Reply by: tenrag - click to view full reply 

50768

Has anyone thought of this for the new Tau codex @ 2011/12/07 20:10:32

Post by: tenrag

WOW why dose the tau have to lose every game to make other army owners happy. I think the Marker lights need to be fired Interdependently of the shooting phase or at the start of it, at what ever BS of the model holding it is, to the point every non CC ML model fires the ML at its own target.( I think of this as a kind of field id beacon update done army wide)

I know crazy right play test with this one change, Place a ML token on each ML target then roll to hit them if hit leave the token if missed remove the token, then spend tokens as needed / used. Then in the shooting phase the Units shoots as normal. I think this would help win back the points spent on ML of any kind.