So I'm just wondering, how do you "randomly select an enemy model"

I noticed this is said A LOT in the Necron book for various abilities... I'm always used to me selecting where wounds land on my troops when they're attacked, or I'm used to shooting at a vehicle and picking which weapon I want destroyed... but when it says "Randomly select an enemy model..." i've tried finding this in the BRB and had no luck.

Few things that do this - Mindshackle Scarabs, Transdimensional beamer (exile ray)

Terribly sorry if this is a ridiculous question, I'm sure the answer is right in front of me somewhere, I just can't find it :(

Thanks guys

It's not easy.

Total up the number of models in the enemy army.

Assign each model a number.

Then, roll a dX where X is the number of models. I suggest http://www.random.org/ to make this easier. Otherwise, get out a d100 (or two d10s) and prepare to reroll as needed.

The method used is unimportant. All that matters is that it is random, this having an equal chance of affecting all eligible models. Use whatever method works for you and your opponent.

Looks like i'll need to dig out my d30 die lol

It doesn't need to be dice of course. You could draw lots, etc.

Dice can be used in the majority of situations. Just number the models and roll the amount of dice necessary to incorporate the highest number (so for 14 models you need 3D6) and either make it so that any numbers higher (in this case, 15 through 18) count as rolling the highest possible result attributed to a model (in this case 14) or simply re-roll until you reach a valid number.

You would need to reroll. Simply letting the 15 to 18 count as 14 gives the model assigned the "14" a higher chance of being hit....thus it isn't truly random.

Using non-casino grade dice isn't truly random or generating the most random result possible either, so honestly it would depend on the game you're playing. A casual game could support either way, with the former being quicker, but a tournament would require the re-rolls.

Oppent writes down each model and assigns them a number on paper, so like

1 - Serg
2 - MS
3 - Marine
4 - Marine
5 - Marine

You pick a number with out seeing sheet and then look it up on what you got?

Best way I have found is to roll a die for each model, one at a time, and whomever gets the highest result is the random winner.

In the event of a tie, all those with the highest result re-roll.

It is fairly quick once you get the hang of it.

Or you could nominate half the unit and roll a single Die, odds left side evens right side, repeat til there is one guy left. (At most you will need like 5 rolls.)

Just use your army list. First model (usually HQ for me) would be '1' then the next unit (lets say a 6 model command squad) is 2-7 and so on. Then roll the appropriate dice.

zeshin wrote:Just use your army list. First model (usually HQ for me) would be '1' then the next unit (lets say a 6 model command squad) is 2-7 and so on. Then roll the appropriate dice.

That works for units with even numbers, but D7 are tough to come by

It really shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to randomize. If you have 6 or less choices, assign each of the targets a number and roll a dice, rerolling until you get one of the target numbers. If greater than 6, easiest way is to split the group into two or three sets of equal size, then roll to see which one is picked, then continue the process. For example

# of targets - solution
1 - you got it
2 - roll a D2
3 - roll a D3
4 - roll a D6, rerolling 5 and 6 OR roll two D2s
5 - roll a D6, rerolling 6
6 - roll a D6
7 - kind of complicated. Roll a D6. Subtract one from the roll, then multiply by 6. Roll a D6. If the result is (6,6), start over. Add the two numbers together, divide by 7. The result is the remainder of the division.
8 - roll a D2, then a D4
9 - roll a D3, then a D3
10 - roll a D2, then a D5
11 - complicated - do it like a D7, but roll a D6 for the second dice, start over on the results of (6,4), (6,5), and (6,6) and divide by 11.
12 - roll a D2, then a D6
13 - complicated - easiest would be draw a card from a deck of cards, J = 11, Q = 12, K = 13
14 - roll a D2, then a D7
15 - roll a D3, then a D5
16 - roll a D2, then a D2, then a D4.

etc. Prime numbers are hard, so I'd just use a random.org on someone's phone.

Avatar 720 wrote:Dice can be used in the majority of situations. Just number the models and roll the amount of dice necessary to incorporate the highest number (so for 14 models you need 3D6) and either make it so that any numbers higher (in this case, 15 through 18) count as rolling the highest possible result attributed to a model (in this case 14) or simply re-roll until you reach a valid number.

The problem with this method is it can be manipulated. For example for a 10 man squad:
If you roll 2d6 - 1 (so 1 is possible) the sixth guy is six times more likely to get picked than the first one. Total sum of seven on two dice is a 1 in 6 chance. Two ones is 1 in 36.

Macok wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Dice can be used in the majority of situations. Just number the models and roll the amount of dice necessary to incorporate the highest number (so for 14 models you need 3D6) and either make it so that any numbers higher (in this case, 15 through 18) count as rolling the highest possible result attributed to a model (in this case 14) or simply re-roll until you reach a valid number.

The problem with this method is it can be manipulated. For example for a 10 man squad:
If you roll 2d6 - 1 (so 1 is possible) the sixth guy is six times more likely to get picked than the first one. Total sum of seven on two dice is a 1 in 6 chance. Two ones is 1 in 36.

Exactly, that's why you do it like I posted above.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

# of targets - solution

7 - kind of complicated. Roll a D6. Subtract one from the roll, then multiply by 6. Roll a D6. If the result is (6,6), start over. Add the two numbers together, divide by 7. The result is the remainder of the division.

11 - complicated - do it like a D7, but roll a D6 for the second dice, start over on the results of (6,4), (6,5), and (6,6) and divide by 11.

13 - complicated - easiest would be draw a card from a deck of cards, J = 11, Q = 12, K = 13

etc. Prime numbers are hard, so I'd just use a random.org on someone's phone.

A better way to do the prime numbers is just split them into two groups, roll a D2 to slit the group in two and then roll the appropriate die.

Something like this:

7 - D2, then a D3 or D4 depending on the D2 roll.

11 - D2 then D5 or D6 depending on the D2 roll.

13 - D2 so you will have a group of 7 and a group of 6, so either D2, then a D3 or D4 depending on the D2 roll like for a 7, or a D6.

Whatever way you do it, make sure your opponent knows what is going on.

DeathReaper wrote:

zeshin wrote:Just use your army list. First model (usually HQ for me) would be '1' then the next unit (lets say a 6 model command squad) is 2-7 and so on. Then roll the appropriate dice.

That works for units with even numbers, but D7 are tough to come by

I meant cumulative for the whole list, and do it in one roll. Say you have 74 models in your army total; you would simply roll percentile and ignore (re-roll) a result of 75-100.

The problem with rolling multiple dice and adding them together is that not all results are equally likely. 2d6 rolls 7 far more often than it rolls 12, so it's inappropriate to roll 2d6 if you want to randomly choose a model in an 11 man unit.

With the prime numbers you can't split them into 2 groups and then roll a different dice depending on the group. With the group of 7 given as an example above the models in the group with only 3 models are more likely to be selected than the models in the group of 4. You can do it by splitting into groups, selecting a group randomly and then rolling the largest dice for each group, so in this example a d4 for both. If you get an inappropriate number for the group (a 4 in the group of 3) you'll have to start over from scratch, you can't just reroll within the group or you bias the selection towards the models in the smaller group.

You know what would be simpler then that? Pick a number 1-however many choices (right it down), then your opponent picks a unit/ model and you work round clockwise (or what ever) till you get to that number ... that's the model/ unit effected.

Nether person can know the others choice so it will always be random ... and damn quicker then rolling.

http://www.gamestation.net/GameScience-White-d7

They make tons of wierd Dx's... Not that getting a ton of weird dice is in any way economic.

We decided on using cards since there are enough of them in one suit for most of our games.

DeathReaper wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

# of targets - solution

7 - kind of complicated. Roll a D6. Subtract one from the roll, then multiply by 6. Roll a D6. If the result is (6,6), start over. Add the two numbers together, divide by 7. The result is the remainder of the division.

11 - complicated - do it like a D7, but roll a D6 for the second dice, start over on the results of (6,4), (6,5), and (6,6) and divide by 11.

13 - complicated - easiest would be draw a card from a deck of cards, J = 11, Q = 12, K = 13

etc. Prime numbers are hard, so I'd just use a random.org on someone's phone.

A better way to do the prime numbers is just split them into two groups, roll a D2 to slit the group in two and then roll the appropriate die.

Something like this:

7 - D2, then a D3 or D4 depending on the D2 roll.

11 - D2 then D5 or D6 depending on the D2 roll.

13 - D2 so you will have a group of 7 and a group of 6, so either D2, then a D3 or D4 depending on the D2 roll like for a 7, or a D6.

Whatever way you do it, make sure your opponent knows what is going on.

The problem with that is each model won't have the same chance of being picked.

A group of 7 split into 2 groups, A of size 3 and B of size 4. Both of these groups have a 50% chance of being picked, so good. You then roll to pick a model out of each group - each model in group A has a 33% chance, and each model in group B has a 25% chance.

Model 1: 16.7% chance to be picked
Model 2: 16.7% chance to be picked
Model 3: 16.7% chance to be picked
Model 4: 12.5% chance to be picked
Model 5: 12.5% chance to be picked
Model 6: 12.5% chance to be picked
Model 7: 12.5% chance to be picked

The probability function is biased towards group A. Each model should have a 14.3% chance to be picked, so that method is flawed.

DeathReaper wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

# of targets - solution

7 - kind of complicated. Roll a D6. Subtract one from the roll, then multiply by 6. Roll a D6. If the result is (6,6), start over. Add the two numbers together, divide by 7. The result is the remainder of the division.

11 - complicated - do it like a D7, but roll a D6 for the second dice, start over on the results of (6,4), (6,5), and (6,6) and divide by 11.

13 - complicated - easiest would be draw a card from a deck of cards, J = 11, Q = 12, K = 13

etc. Prime numbers are hard, so I'd just use a random.org on someone's phone.

A better way to do the prime numbers is just split them into two groups, roll a D2 to slit the group in two and then roll the appropriate die.

Something like this:

7 - D2, then a D3 or D4 depending on the D2 roll.

11 - D2 then D5 or D6 depending on the D2 roll.

13 - D2 so you will have a group of 7 and a group of 6, so either D2, then a D3 or D4 depending on the D2 roll like for a 7, or a D6.

Whatever way you do it, make sure your opponent knows what is going on.

The problem with this method is that not every model has an equal chance of being selected, taking 7 for example, models 1-4 would have a 1/8 chance of being selected while models 5-7 would have a 1/6 chance of being selected.

What I've found that works for me is to carry larger dice around, I've got a d4, a few d8s, some d10s, 2 d12s, and a d20 in my dice box, with a pair of d10s, you can roll d100 which gives you 100 possible outcomes, which should be enough. If not, you can easily turn that into d200 or larger by rolling a d2, d3, d4, or d6 first.

You can also go smaller such as a d40 (40 possible results with d4, d10), or a d66 (36 possible results with d6, d6).

1/8 vs 1/6 I do not know anyone who would have a problem with this difference, it is random enough for government work.

Though if they do just roll a die for each model and the one with the highest score wins. as I have noted before.

That is totally random.

Run into the street, grab any randomer, ask them to pick a model from the squad and then let them go.

There, random.

Steelmage99 wrote:You would need to reroll. Simply letting the 15 to 18 count as 14 gives the model assigned the "14" a higher chance of being hit....thus it isn't truly random.

of course its still random,theres just a higher chance for model #14.

Tri wrote:You know what would be simpler then that? Pick a number 1-however many choices (right it down), then your opponent picks a unit/ model and you work round clockwise (or what ever) till you get to that number ... that's the model/ unit effected.

I really like this idea. Simple and elegant.

Ghaz wrote:The method used is unimportant. All that matters is that it is random, this having an equal chance of affecting all eligible models. Use whatever method works for you and your opponent.

Actually the rules don't say that. Randomness does not inherently mean each occurrence has an equal chance of happening. While that is definitely the best way to play it, effectively it is whatever you and your opponent agree upon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

HamHamLunchbox wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:You would need to reroll. Simply letting the 15 to 18 count as 14 gives the model assigned the "14" a higher chance of being hit....thus it isn't truly random.

of course its still random,theres just a higher chance for model #14.

Weighted chance does not preclude randomness...

But it does preclude fairness.

The best solution is to avoid including ridiculous "select a random x" mechanics in any codex ever again.

For the record, if it's not the same chance for each item, it's not random. I'd just get a d20 and roll until I got a valid result; that should be the simplest. Unfortunately, multiple d6s wouldn't work very well because then you can never get 1...

If its not equal, then its not random because one (or more) models have a greater probability of being chosen. Stacking the odds in one model's favor of being chosen is not random.

Ghaz wrote:If its not equal, then its not random because one (or more) models have a greater probability of being chosen. Stacking the odds in one model's favor of being chosen is not random.

False. Look up random.

1) Put all of your opponents models into a barrel.
2) Spin barrel around multiple times to make sure everything is shaken up good and proper.
3) Ask an impartial observer to reach in and select a model.


Hey, it's considered random enough for the lottery, why isn't it good enough for your warhammer?

The dude who said cards before may be onto something. Unless its a blob of 5 guard squads each of which has a commissar, it will be enough.

Random is defined as "without pattern". If one or more models have a greater chance of being chosen you have set up a pattern that shows they are being chosen more often. Hence I stand by my statement that it is not random.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/random

JB_Man wrote:Unfortunately, multiple d6s wouldn't work very well because then you can never get 1...

Which is solved by subtracting by X, where X is the number of d6s used - 1.

Ghaz wrote:Random is defined as "without pattern". If one or more models have a greater chance of being chosen you have set up a pattern that shows they are being chosen more often. Hence I stand by my statement that it is not random.

No, they only have a higher chance of being chosen. It is still determined by random chance.

Are you trying to say that noting in 40k is random? Because every event is weighted in one form or another.
High/Low probability decided by a roll of the dice is still random.

No, because once again you've set up a pattern that will show up in the results.

Are you trying to say that noting in 40k is random? Because every event is weighted in one form or another.

Who said everything in 40K is random? The dice rolls may be, but the results of WS10 versus WS2 will in the long run show a pattern that's anything but random.

Ghaz wrote:No, because once again you've set up a pattern that will show up in the results.

Are you trying to say that noting in 40k is random? Because every event is weighted in one form or another.

Who said everything in 40K is random? The dice rolls may be, but the results of WS10 versus WS2 will in the long run show a pattern that's anything but random.

1
1
3
4
5
6

I roll a (modified) d6. The probability that I roll a 1 is higher than any other number, but the outcome is still randomly determined. It is possible, though unlikely, that I will never roll a 1. Randomness is not tied to probability.

Sorry Ghaz, but a weighted random number generator is still random.
If you can prove that it isn't, there will be a whole heap of very upset mathematicians and statisticians upset that you have debunked their life's work in the field of probability theory.
Or are you saying that.. a leadership test isn't random because it is weighted towards 7? ... that roulette wheels don't randomly determine red, black or green?

That being said, depending on the number of dice rolled, it is biased towards certain numbers and as such shouldn't be used to determine your opponents models.

I would suggest getting a D100 (or 2 D10's) and counting along your opponent's models until you reach that number. If he's deployed, you might need to count as if reading a book, ie left to right moving down the board, or similar.

Trasvi wrote:Sorry Ghaz, but a weighted random number generator is still random.
If you can prove that it isn't, there will be a whole heap of very upset mathematicians and statisticians upset that you have debunked their life's work in the field of probability theory.
Or are you saying that.. a leadership test isn't random because it is weighted towards 7? ... that roulette wheels don't randomly determine red, black or green?

That being said, depending on the number of dice rolled, it is biased towards certain numbers and as such shouldn't be used to determine your opponents models.

I would suggest getting a D100 (or 2 D10's) and counting along your opponent's models until you reach that number. If he's deployed, you might need to count as if reading a book, ie left to right moving down the board, or similar.

Very true there are 2x Revolvers one has 3 bullets, one has 1. if you need to play Russian Roulette there is still a random chance you'll die/live. They don't have to be weighted evenly as long as there is a chance .

I roll a (modified) d6. The probability that I roll a 1 is higher than any other number, but the outcome is still randomly determined.

You're confusing the result on the dice with the result that the roll gives you. It is the result that must be random. Try the aforementioned WS10 versus WS2 one hundred times. If it were truly random, then the results would be near equal. I believe you will not be the case.

Warhammer 40K is not a random game. It is a game of odds like any casino game.

Randomly select a model eh? Ask a passer-by to pick a random model. It doesn't get more random than human nature.

For a really numerous unit, like Ork Boys or IG blobs, start by selecting a model in the center, then roll a scatter die and a D6. The scatter die indicates the direction and the D6 tells you how many models in that direction to count. If you roll a hit, the starting point model is chosen. Viola!

That gives the starting point model a 1/3 chance of being chosen. If I was the Necron player, I'd choose to start on the Power Klaw Nob.

xlEternitylx wrote:Randomly select a model eh? Ask a passer-by to pick a random model. It doesn't get more random than human nature.

Actually, it does. Humans are awful at picking at random.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Actually, it does. Humans are awful at picking at random.

"Ooo, I randomly select this large flashy model with the cape and the big sword"

If you only have d6, a consistant way for random numbers is as follows.

Take however many models you must randomize, and break them down into groups of 6.

Take those groups, and break them down into groups of 6.

If you have more than 36 models, form groups of 36.

Now roll a d6 to figure out which of the largest groups are chosen, and work your way down. If you roll a group with no models in it, start over.

Example with 10 man tac squad, with 7 regular marines, 1 sarge, 1 missile, 1 flamer

Group 1
1: regular
2: regular
3: regular
4: regular
5: regular
6: regular

Group 2
1: regular
2: flamer
3: missile
4: sarge
5: start over
6: start over

So, you would roll a d6. Since their is only 2 groups, on a 1-3 its group 1, and on a 4-6 its group 2. Then roll another d6 to see which is hit. If you get a start over, then go back to rolling your group.

With 2d6 rolls, you can generate up to 36 unique results. With 3 d6 rolls, its 216 unique rolls. This is more than enough, using only the dice you normally bring for your army.

Devian, that method is biased, as explained above. All models need the same chance to be picked to be fair, and the models in your group 2 have a 1/8th chance to be picked, while the models in group 1 have a 1/12th chance to be picked. Use the methods I posted earlier in the thread (my D10 is similar to yours, but split into two 5 model groups) or use a random number generator like random.org.

Numbering for the bases could be a good way to do it.

Just paint numbers on the base of the model somewhere and have the corresponding numbers in a bag, then your opponent picks a number until you get one that matches one that is still on the table.

Or paired die sets with matching colors, that way you put a colored die next to each of the models, then roll the corresponding ones, and the highest roll is picked at random.

Or instead of cutesy, convoluted ways, just do it with the simplest, fairest method - either a short dice chain or a quick trip to random.org. It's not like the game room will have a shortage of smartphones lying around.

insaniak wrote:

Tri wrote:You know what would be simpler then that? Pick a number 1-however many choices (right it down), then your opponent picks a unit/ model and you work round clockwise (or what ever) till you get to that number ... that's the model/ unit effected.

I really like this idea. Simple and elegant.

Thanks, but you seem the only other person that want a simple solution

Masterslowpoke, the way described is fair. Check the math. The key is if you roll a 5 or 6 in group 2 you start from scratch, rolling to see what group (1 or 2) you get.

Its like rolling a d4 on a d6 by rolling until you get a 1-4 and rerolling 5-6.

Heres an Idea... I'm serious... Close your eyes and use your finger and just press on one... that should be random enough... no peeking though...

Ghaz wrote:

I roll a (modified) d6. The probability that I roll a 1 is higher than any other number, but the outcome is still randomly determined.

You're confusing the result on the dice with the result that the roll gives you. It is the result that must be random.

The method of determining the model is random. That method has a higher probability to determine a 1 than any other number, but it's still random.

Warhammer 40K is not a random game. It is a game of odds like any casino game.

Odds dictate Probability. From wiki on casino games, "Games available in most casinos are commonly called casino games. In a casino game, the players gamble casino chips on various possible random outcomes or combinations of outcomes."

The odds say that a model with a 2+ save and 2W that gets hit by 6 bolter shots will be fine. Since the determination of the outcome is random, there's no guarantee.

Or can you predict what a die will roll before you roll it? If you can't, the outcome is random. Most computers use an algorithm to determine a random number, which means the number is only pseudo random. Calling something not random means you can predict the outcome - in the situations you presented you can predict that some models have a higher probability of being chosen, but you cannot predict exactly which model.

Whenever I get this rule I usually associate "Random" with "whatever I like"

DevianID wrote:Masterslowpoke, the way described is fair. Check the math. The key is if you roll a 5 or 6 in group 2 you start from scratch, rolling to see what group (1 or 2) you get.

Its like rolling a d4 on a d6 by rolling until you get a 1-4 and rerolling 5-6.

It is like rolling a D4 - each of the results has a 25% chance to be picked. They don't have a 16.7% chance to be picked.

The problem is that you're not rolling a D4 for the other group. Models in the first group have 1/2*1/6 chance to be picked. Models in the second group have 1/2*1/4 chance to be picked. Run the math, and you'll see that starting over is inconsequential.

No no no master slowpoke.

Each of 10 unique models has a 1/12 chance of being rolled. If you roll an 11 or 12, then you reroll the entire thing, generating a new d2 group roll and d6 model count, until you get a result that is not 11 or 12.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

DevianID wrote:Masterslowpoke, the way described is fair. Check the math. The key is if you roll a 5 or 6 in group 2 you start from scratch, rolling to see what group (1 or 2) you get.

Its like rolling a d4 on a d6 by rolling until you get a 1-4 and rerolling 5-6.

It is like rolling a D4 - each of the results has a 25% chance to be picked. They don't have a 16.7% chance to be picked.

The problem is that you're not rolling a D4 for the other group. Models in the first group have 1/2*1/6 chance to be picked. Models in the second group have 1/2*1/4 chance to be picked. Run the math, and you'll see that starting over is inconsequential.

I had to think about this one for a minute but the aforementioned method does work, each model has 3 out of 36 combinations that would yield it being chosen. 30/36 = a model is chose, 6/36 start over.

Well, I'll be damned.

http://codepad.org/zJmv5Eow

Apologies.

Avatar 720 wrote:Dice can be used in the majority of situations. Just number the models and roll the amount of dice necessary to incorporate the highest number (so for 14 models you need 3D6) and either make it so that any numbers higher (in this case, 15 through 18) count as rolling the highest possible result attributed to a model (in this case 14) or simply re-roll until you reach a valid number.

You don't have an equal chance of getting every possibility. The casino game of "Craps" highlights this exactly.

nm.

Disarray wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Dice can be used in the majority of situations. Just number the models and roll the amount of dice necessary to incorporate the highest number (so for 14 models you need 3D6) and either make it so that any numbers higher (in this case, 15 through 18) count as rolling the highest possible result attributed to a model (in this case 14) or simply re-roll until you reach a valid number.

You don't have an equal chance of getting every possibility. The casino game of "Craps" highlights this exactly.

You have an equal chance of getting any single result on a single d6. On the other hand when you are adding the results of 2d6 the distribution is a bell curve. See DevianID's post for a method that actually works.

you can cobble it together in C in a couple of minutes easily, I did so a whole ago
srand();
dice_result=rand()%d;
where d is the number you want, so 6 for a d6, 10 for a d10.
may have gotten the fuction names wrong, it's been a while.

technically that's pseudorandom, but likely close enough.

Or, you could use www.random.org from an available smartphone/tablet/laptop.

I think for speed sake, its just faster to have the opponent write down on a sheet of paper what number every model is (say 5 models in a unit of grey knights, like

1 - halberd
2 - halberd
3 - hammer
4 - justicar
5 - psycannon

And then I (or person who is initiating "random" attack) just randomly choose a number between 1-5, opponent places down the piece of paper and voila.

Alternatively, if it's a horde of ork boyz w/ a boyz nob , 30 models , the opponent would just write down what number the nob would be and if i guess that number between 1-30 i kill the nob, otherwise its just a random ork boy

Least thats my idea for fastest/most fair.

Cryage, instead of going through writing down numbers and what not in order to have your opponent guess, you can use my method of randomly generating 1-36 on 2 d6, or larger numbers if ever necessary on 3 d6. Your method wont work well in large diversified units of models, since unless you have all the models numbered ahead of time you will spend more time writing down whats in the unit.

After all, if you would roll to determine who is hit in a 5 man gk squad, you should roll to determine who is hit in a 30 man ork mob with at most 4 different kinds of models. Consistancy matters.

DevianID wrote:Cryage, instead of going through writing down numbers and what not in order to have your opponent guess, you can use my method of randomly generating 1-36 on 2 d6, or larger numbers if ever necessary on 3 d6. Your method wont work well in large diversified units of models, since unless you have all the models numbered ahead of time you will spend more time writing down whats in the unit.

After all, if you would roll to determine who is hit in a 5 man gk squad, you should roll to determine who is hit in a 30 man ork mob with at most 4 different kinds of models. Consistancy matters.

To be fair in most cases you would only need to write down a few numbers.

For example you have a 20 man CSM squad. There are 2 plasma guns, 1 champion with a PF and 17 normal guys.

Jot down a number between 1-20 for each of the plasmas and the PF. If I guess any of those three numbers the appropriate model is selected, if not it was a vanilla guy.

Yes that is true cagecf, some units may be easier than others for playing the guessing game. BUT, there is no reason not to roll dice randomly, especially considering that guessing numbers has quite a bit of psychology behind it.

Without looking up the data, I am fairly confidant that a random breakdown of strangers asked for random numbers 1-20 will result in some mumbers being picked much more often than others. '13' for example may have 10% total, while '1' may only have 2%, as people are inclined to not pick the outer limits of the set asked to provide a number within. Obviously 10% and 2% are not 5% each, which you should expect in a random guess in a large sample size.

Woah woah woah... Surely it just means you choose an enemy model? Say if a space marine tactical squad had a sergeant, a marine with a missile launcher and eight normal guys, you pick one (say the missile guy because he could blow up a tank, or the sergeant because his face is badly painted*) and it's chosen. GW (I'd even go so far as to say Matt Ward) wouldn't expect people to go through major lengths to decide a 'random model'...

*I hate painting faces. I thoroughly hate it...

Commander Jimbob wrote:Woah woah woah... Surely it just means you choose an enemy model?

Arbitrary is not random.

I just close my eyes and pick a model at random, can't get much more random than that XD

LazzurusMan wrote:I just close my eyes and pick a model at random, can't get much more random than that XD

Yes it can.
Especially if you have a (good) memory.

What I do is take a piece of paper, a square about 1/2 an inch across, and hold it above the unit and let it drop. No fanning or blowing it. If it misses just do it again. Whatever model it hits.

Deadshot wrote:What I do is take a piece of paper, a square about 1/2 an inch across, and hold it above the unit and let it drop. No fanning or blowing it. If it misses just do it again. Whatever model it hits.

How is this any easier than rolling some dice? It's decidedly less random, it takes longer, and you already have a pile of dice on hand.

What I do is I fly to England, find Matt Ward, and punch him in the stomach over and over screaming "WHY WOULD YOU MAKE SO IMPRACTICAL A MECHANIC?" until he tells me which model is "random".



Seriously: As long as both players are comfortable with the method involved, it doesn't really matter. Just hope that one of the players isn't a mathematician.

kirsanth wrote:

Commander Jimbob wrote:Woah woah woah... Surely it just means you choose an enemy model?

Arbitrary is not random.

And yet random is not practical... I'm sure in the BRB it says that the game is designed to be fast and simple. I just think that it's worded badly.

Commander Jimbob wrote:And yet random is not practical... I'm sure in the BRB it says that the game is designed to be fast and simple. I just think that it's worded badly.

There are a plethora of valid ways to get a random result in this thread.

Most of them take less time that it took you to post that.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Deadshot wrote:What I do is take a piece of paper, a square about 1/2 an inch across, and hold it above the unit and let it drop. No fanning or blowing it. If it misses just do it again. Whatever model it hits.

How is this any easier than rolling some dice? It's decidedly less random, it takes longer, and you already have a pile of dice on hand.

I use a 1/22 square because my IG friend likes the Prepared Assault Battle Mission, which use thse. Even a tiny corner of the page of an army list would do.


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And I only do it for large units like Orks or Blobs. If thwey number a multiple of 3, or are less than 7 in number then I roll dfice. but in a horde this is good, rather than rolling 30 odd dice and coming up with a complicated formula.

xlEternitylx wrote:Randomly select a model eh? Ask a passer-by to pick a random model. It doesn't get more random than human nature.

Avatar 720 wrote:Run into the street, grab any randomer, ask them to pick a model from the squad and then let them go.

There, random.

"Aaaaargh! get away from me weirdo!"

"OK, I choose the shiny one"

"The metal skeleton one."
"That's the wrong team, it has to be one of the other team."
"I've got better things to do with my time."

kirsanth wrote:

Commander Jimbob wrote:And yet random is not practical... I'm sure in the BRB it says that the game is designed to be fast and simple. I just think that it's worded badly.

There are a plethora of valid ways to get a random result in this thread.

Most of them take less time that it took you to post that.

Haha, very funny, all I'm saying is I don't think everyone should be taking the word 'random' so literally, like if at school a teacher were to ask you to randomly choose a member of the class, you wouldn't go online and find a result generator, roll a d25, etc... You'd just choose someone.

But when you picked someone, it didn't matter who. It didn't make a big diference. "Randomly" the guy with a Thunder Hammer, when a C'tan uis about to charge, is not fair.

Hmmm...

Random number generators guys. Just find a good one and use that.

Or, I dont know, roll the d6 you have...

Because not everyone has access to a random number generator or a smart phone when playing, but d6's are required for the game, AND with just 2d6 you can get random numbers from 1 to 36 easily (1 to 216 with 3d6) if everyone just gets on board with the dice method then it will become as easy as rolling to hit.

DevianID wrote:Or, I dont know, roll the d6 you have...

Because not everyone has access to a random number generator or a smart phone when playing, but d6's are required for the game, AND with just 2d6 you can get random numbers from 1 to 36 easily (1 to 216 with 3d6) if everyone just gets on board with the dice method then it will become as easy as rolling to hit.

But only if you use different colored dice. Otherwise you only have 21 numbers on 2d6.

Grakmar wrote:What I do is I fly to England, find Matt Ward, and punch him in the stomach over and over screaming "WHY WOULD YOU MAKE SO IMPRACTICAL A MECHANIC?" until he tells me which model is "random".

This, this, this, a thousand times, this!

DevianID wrote:Or, I dont know, roll the d6 you have...

Because not everyone has access to a random number generator or a smart phone when playing, but d6's are required for the game, AND with just 2d6 you can get random numbers from 1 to 36 easily (1 to 216 with 3d6) if everyone just gets on board with the dice method then it will become as easy as rolling to hit.

Again, 2d6 does NOT give you an equal chance for each number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craps

seriously guys...

i second Jimbob,........ and Grakmar!

Disarray wrote:

DevianID wrote:Or, I dont know, roll the d6 you have...

Because not everyone has access to a random number generator or a smart phone when playing, but d6's are required for the game, AND with just 2d6 you can get random numbers from 1 to 36 easily (1 to 216 with 3d6) if everyone just gets on board with the dice method then it will become as easy as rolling to hit.

Again, 2d6 does NOT give you an equal chance for each number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craps

seriously guys...

He's not talking about summing them, he's talking about using them as some sort of percentile dice system, a d66 if you will. Summing 2d6 can't get you random numbers as high as 36.

I love random.
Take as many randomly selected model items as you can, and see if you're ahead when the tournament ends at the end of turn 2.

-Matt

kirsanth wrote:

LazzurusMan wrote:I just close my eyes and pick a model at random, can't get much more random than that XD

Yes it can.
Especially if you have a (good) memory.

Then get an impartial bystander, thats what we do at my local club...either that or just randomly pick up a model, which imo is fine as long as the squad are all the same...

LazzurusMan wrote:Then get an impartial bystander. . .

Arbitrary is still not random.

Why not just sneak over to one of the D&D players and swipe a D20? You really can't get too many models in base to base contact with a small base and that should be more than sufficient for just about any situation.

say there are 11 models, start at a point, go clockwise or whatever method, roll the die, anything 1-11 you got a model, anything more, reroll until you get 1-11

It's not really hard or overly expensive to just toss a few extra dice into the dice bag, especially if you already have them laying around back at home.

The method mentioned earlier of rolling a die for each model to see who is lucky enough to get the highest roll, and a run off for those who tied at the highest number also seems fair to me, but then I didn't major in statistics so could be wrong.

Write down all the models on slips of paper. Crumple each slip up so you can't read whats on it. Toss in a bag, shake up and draw.


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Or this.

Grakmar wrote:What I do is I fly to England, find Matt Ward, and punch him in the stomach over and over screaming "WHY WOULD YOU MAKE SO IMPRACTICAL A MECHANIC?" until he tells me which model is "random".
.