Kayazy Eliminators

The kayazy eliminators are assassins who practice their deadly trade with the finesse of the finest artists. Working in pairs, the lithe eliminators move with deft agility to conceal their silent presence. When the time comes to perform their bloody services, they do so with a grace that would seem like ease were anyone present to observe it.

Base Size: 30mm
PIP Code: 33074
Price: $13.99*
Model Count: 2
Packaging: Blister
*Product information and prices subject to change

Gallows Grove

An ancient manifestation of the Devourer Wurm’s conscious will, the gallows grove flourishes on soil soaked in the blood of sacrifice and violent massacres. Possessing an unsettling approximation of sentience, these gnarled trees might vanish only to reappear where the blood flows most freely. Powerful druids of the Circle are able to feed their will into these conduits of power and then unleash it upon those marked for death. The very presence of these trees saps vitality from the living as wounds gape wide to pour blood upon the thirsty roots of their destroyers.

Base Size: 40mm
PIP Code: 72063
Price: $24.99*
Model Count: 2
Packaging: Blister
*Product information and prices subject to change

Plastic Carnivean Chassis

The warlocks that serve the dragon Everblight can call upon a myriad of dragonspawn, each a perfect engine of draconic destruction. The Carnivean, an ancient and favored dragonspawn, shreds flesh, bone, and steel with its mighty claws and a shark-like maw. The Ravagore emulates it progenitor’s fearsome breath by engulfing foes in gouts of blighted fire. Terrifying in its brutal simplicity, the sickle-armed Scythean is another ancient breed created to single-mindedly destroy any who oppose its master’s will.

This box set contains three color stat cards and one multi-part heavy warbeast plastic model (PIP 73057). Included are all the components to assemble one of three heavy warbeast variants: Carnivean, Ravagore, or Scythean. A player may field any number of these heavy warbeasts in a Legion of Everblight army.

Base Size: 50mm
PIP Code: 73057
Price: $34.99*
Model Count: 1
Packaging: Box
*Product information and prices subject to change

Proteus

The dragonspawn Proteus is Absylonia’s greatest creation. With a mass of thrashing tentacles projecting from its horrible visage, Proteus is the dragon’s hunger given obscene form. This unnatural abomination snares its victims with its tentacles and drags them inexorably into the grasp of its waiting claws. Those ensnared die horribly as Proteus strips flesh from bone, filling the air with a bloody mist.

The Proteus character heavy dragonspawn upgrade kit comes in a blister (PIP 73062). The Proteus character heavy dragonspawn upgrade kit is NOT a complete model. Players will need a Legion of Everblight Carnivean/Ravagore/Scythean Heavy Dragonspawn kit (PIP 73057) in addition to this kit. A player may field one Proteus in a Legion of Everblight army.

Base Size: 50mm
PIP Code: 73062
Price: $14.99*
Model Count: 1
Packaging: Blister
*Product information and prices subject to change

Damn I'm too easily bribed with decent female models, for the first time ever, Warmachine releases figures that have me considering the system.

Tree thing is nice too.

Updated with Carivean and Proteus since then. I've let the War Wagon and Archidon stay in their own thread.

Ah nice, Hordes is one I'd looked at previously as it didn't have the jacks, which I struggle with due to the style.

I do think its only a matter of time before it releases a figure that will bring me in, they are certainly releasing some nice figs.

Wow. Tyranids much?

Them Kayazy Eliminator models are damn nice. They're heads and shoulders above the Kayazy assassins, unbelievably so.

The Eliminators actually look pretty good. They're feminine without being oversexualized and they're dynamic enough to be likable.

The trees-with-skulls are forgettable.

The Everblight figures look just like the other Everblight figures in the line. There's a difference between following a and coherent design and simply producing uninspired variants.

Absolutionis wrote:The Everblight figures look just like the other Everblight figures in the line. There's a difference between following a and coherent design and simply producing uninspired variants.

That's likely because they ARE the other Everblight figures in the line. See the plastic kit bit.

:( I just want to see Tiberion released, not waiting several months for his kit.

I like those Ker-Azy Eliminators. The trees-with-skulls look ok as well, possibly as scenery for a themed table/army.

TRHe Tree with skulls would also work as the Hanging Tree in Malifaux.

Like the Eliminators, enouigh though I don't play Hordes (nor have I any intention to) but they could make for some nice proxies in Malifaux

Those two knife-wielding ladies are very nice models.

Laughing Man wrote:[url=http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/gallows-grove]

PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Those two knife-wielding ladies are very nice models.

I agree. The first temptation to add to my armies all year.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

Dont encourage them.

Ooh, the two stabby ladies do look nice indeed.

Eliminators are hot. Tree thingie does not have enough skulls. Carnife...vean and its ilk are meh.

wow... those all look like great fun to paint. That's some nice stuff from Privateer!

The Eliminators are one of the few times that I like the model more than it's artwork. I'm half tempted to pick up 3 blisters and use them as stand ins for a second Daughters of the Flame unit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

So, how soon before GW sends PP a C&D? And with the dragonspawn being kinda/sorta/vaguely reminescent of GW's Tyranids, can litigation be that far behind.

Pretty sure Lovecraft beat GW to the punch by about 60 years on the tentacle face.

Urge to start an Everblight army... rising...

My FLGS has that nice Everblight starter kit sitting there. On the shelf. I'll be in there on Sunday.

No. I'm not going to. Too much to paint already.

derek wrote:Pretty sure Lovecraft beat GW to the punch by about 60 years on the tentacle face.

Same thing with Moorcock and the chaos star, but supposedly they "own" that, too.

wah wah wah GW Tyranids...whatever

They don't look enough like any of the 'nids to be a challenge.

I was thinking of buying a gallows grove for my Circle Army and adding a severed space marine helmet to the model

Lovely lovely lovely Eliminators, even moreso with Iron Flesh cast on them.

Now just give me some piccies of the House Vyre Myrmidons PP and I'll be a happy camper.

Really like the Khador gals, might have pick them up

Worglock wrote:Wow. Tyranids much?

Welcome to five years ago.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Those two knife-wielding ladies are very nice models.

Laughing Man wrote:[url=http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/gallows-grove]

PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

At least you know those skulls are sacrifices given to those trees themselves.

There are a few models in the range that carry trophy skulls.

Those assassins look wonderful. See what you can do when you leave off the pauldrons and ridiculous hats, PP?

LOVE the Khador Girls.

On the fence about the tree. I am not a big fan of skulls and skeletons but I feel like this one might be sort of tastefully done compared to a GW product studded in trophy skulls and skull iconography. I will make up my mind later.

I've always wanted to love the legion warbears, but the Carnivean variants are ugly as sin. The studio paint job is fantastic and the models are pretty dynamic. Don't like the aesthetic I guess.

Laughing Man wrote:

The left one is nice. The right one, I see where they were trying to go with it, but they failed to do so. Replace the blades with pom-poms and you'd have a great model for a bored cheerleader though.

I like the Carnifexes as well, I guess. I certainly don't respect them since they are the biggest rip-off in the history of ever, but they're reasonably well done. Also, they are $15 less then Carnifexes, so there is that.

Ouze wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:

The left one is nice. The right one, I see where they were trying to go with it, but they failed to do so. Replace the blades with pom-poms and you'd have a great model for a bored cheerleader though.

Hm. I bet with a bit of skill one could re-position the arms to be pointing down and back a bit.

Love the models anyway. And very glad that my Mercs can take them!

Awesome, new tyranids, I mean heavy warbeasts

H.B.M.C. wrote:Those two knife-wielding ladies are very nice models.

Laughing Man wrote:[url=http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/gallows-grove]

PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

Kirby's response:

"This is an arm's race they shall not win!"

Nagashek wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Those two knife-wielding ladies are very nice models.

Laughing Man wrote:[url=http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/gallows-grove]

PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

Kirby's response:

"This is an arm's race they shall not win!"

Actually allows for PP's prices it would be cheaper and possibly better to make up the skull trees from GW woods sets and PP scale bases.
PP is now more expensive than GW per model, at least over here, yet noone complains.

Anyone else notice the Carnevian based beasties are simply the metal models in the pics? Unless the plastics are direct copies of the original sculpts, right down to the posing.

Orlanth wrote:
Actually allows for PP's prices it would be cheaper and possibly better to make up the skull trees from GW woods sets and PP scale bases.
PP is now more expensive than GW per model, at least over here, yet noone complains.

Because what is needed for a good solid playable game is far less and individual models have more impact on the game as a whole. so you feel as if you're getting more value out of what you are buying for the game. That's why. [/dead horse]

Ouze wrote:The right one, I see where they were trying to go with it, but they failed to do so. Replace the blades with pom-poms and you'd have a great model for a bored ninja cheerleader though.

I had the same thought. It shouldn't be too hard to bend the model forward 5-10 degrees to get a better looking appearance. Or mount her on a flying base to make it look like she's jumping.

Ouze wrote:I like the Carnifexes as well, I guess. I certainly don't respect them since they are the biggest rip-off in the history of ever, but they're reasonably well done. Also, they are $15 less then Carnifexes, so there is that.

They're nothing like Tyranids, other than the fact that they've got big teeth and scales. I suppose GW should sue Jurrasic Park.

Orlanth wrote:PP is now more expensive than GW per model, at least over here, yet noone complains.

Not here, not even close.

Laughing Man wrote:

OMF TENTACLE FACE DRAGONSPAWN <3

...

Sorry about that, but PP just slapped together two of my favorite aesthetics Loving that carnivean and offshots are plastic at last, and that I've held off getting any of them when they were metal

- Salvage

I dig the knifey chicks. The one on the right will be cool mounted at a 20 degree angle or so and coming from out of cover to mangle something.

The trees are... ok. I kind of wish they were a little more subtle. If I can take like 10 of them like it is said, I would like them to not be so crazy ornamented and be more like... trees.

I also like tentacle face! Would make for a cool greater demon or elder monstrosity for non-PP purposes too.

Nagashek wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Those two knife-wielding ladies are very nice models.

Laughing Man wrote:[url=http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/gallows-grove]

PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

Kirby's response:

"This is an arm's race they shall not win!"

Don't you mean skulls race?

Orlanth wrote:
Actually allows for PP's prices it would be cheaper and possibly better to make up the skull trees from GW woods sets and PP scale bases.
PP is now more expensive than GW per model, at least over here, yet noone complains.

How wide are GW trees? I could possibly use them for some objective
markers or something, but if they're larger than 40mm at the base then
they'd be the wrong size (measurements are done from the base
edge in warmachine)

infinite_array wrote:Hm. I bet with a bit of skill one could re-position the arms to be pointing down and back a bit.

Upon reflection, even without skill, you can lean it forward a great deal and improve it quite a bit. Alternately base it to have some largeish rocks, and pin her to be jumping off one.

Those Eliminators are beautiful sculpts... I think it's the same sculptor that did the recent Cygnar Warcaster: Constance Blaze.

I like that tree thing. May have to get that for a terrain piece.

The chicks are good as well, still have zero desire to play Warmahordes though.

Gotta love the upcoming plastic Carnivean kit after I've built and painted the metal monstrosity. These kits should be much easier to fix.

The Dark Saga wrote:Gotta love the upcoming plastic Carnivean kit after I've built and painted the metal monstrosity. These kits should be much easier to fix.

Cheaper, too.

I don't like that the right one is up on one foot. They look great other than that.

I can't wait to buy three of the plastic Carnivean kits and magnetize them so I have access to 3x Scythean/Carnivean/Ravagores and the Proteus.

There is supposedly a plastic warbeast kit coming for trolls eventually... not sure what I think of it.

The metal ones are a pain, but once they're together, they're awesome! And each can be much more unique than a uni-kit would allow...

However, for cost it's a no-contest... but including all those extra arms can't make it That much cheaper, right? Probably wrong, but still... I'm attached to the metal especially considering how brittle and non-posable PP's plastic/resinish mix is.

The plastic warbeasts allmost look better then the metal ones. its completely opposite of the warmachine ones. these look like models, not the actionfigure-ish jacks they spit out earlier...

They're metal, right? Bend the foot to lean her forward just slightly as well.

Ouze wrote:
The left one is nice. The right one, I see where they were trying to go with it, but they failed to do so. Replace the blades with pom-poms and you'd have a great model for a bored cheerleader though.

I like the Carnifexes as well, I guess. I certainly don't respect them since they are the biggest rip-off in the history of ever, but they're reasonably well done. Also, they are $15 less then Carnifexes, so there is that.

Given GW's history of ripping off IP, how you say that with a straight face is beyond me.

Let's not turn this into a vs. thread, please.

carmachu wrote:

Ouze wrote:
The left one is nice. The right one, I see where they were trying to go with it, but they failed to do so. Replace the blades with pom-poms and you'd have a great model for a bored cheerleader though.

I like the Carnifexes as well, I guess. I certainly don't respect them since they are the biggest rip-off in the history of ever, but they're reasonably well done. Also, they are $15 less then Carnifexes, so there is that.

Given GW's history of ripping off IP, how you say that with a straight face is beyond me.

Other then both being "large monsters" they have very little in common. The GW carnifex gives off the "insectoid" vibe typical of tyranids, and the LOE beasts are not insectoid at all and are clearly "draconic".

Does anyone have a release date for the Kayazy Eliminators?

Wehrkind wrote:
The trees are... ok. I kind of wish they were a little more subtle. If I can take like 10 of them like it is said, I would like them to not be so crazy ornamented and be more like... trees.

Trees are FA:4 IIRC.

Ivan Isaaks wrote:Does anyone have a release date for the Kayazy Eliminators?

February, again, IIRC.

Orlanth wrote:PP is now more expensive than GW per model, at least over here, yet noone complains.

Putting aside the obvious 'you need less of them' argument, prices aren't the only reason people hate GW.

Nagashek wrote:Kirby's response:

"Oooh! Dividends! NOM NOM NOM NOM!"

Fixed.

I honestly don't see the Tyranids thing though (maybe a little with the Scythean).

I have the Carni in metal and I have magnetised it to be also a Ravagore and Scythean. It was a tough job and I had to use load bearing pins.
I look forward to having the plastic kit. Should be easier to work with.

Oh and please for the love of Scyrah I wants them Vyre jacks!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Those two knife-wielding ladies are very nice models.

Laughing Man wrote:[url=http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/solos/gallows-grove]

PP to GW:

See? We can do skulls too!

...and 'nids!

Laughing Man wrote:
Proteus

PP does something, Dakkadakka goes YAAAAAY!

GW does something, Dakkadakka goes BOOOOOO!


Seriously, this GW hate is getting silly. PP is even more expensive than GW when you consider price per model, and yet you keep whining about GW prices. The irony is massive.

Pile of new gak?

I find this thread to be aptly named.

Marzillius wrote:
Seriously, this GW hate is getting silly. PP is even more expensive than GW when you consider price per model, and yet you keep whining about GW prices. The irony is massive.

Actually, the GW irony weighs significantly less now ever since they changed their cumbersome metal models to Finecast, which now needs a special tube of liquid green stuff to fix.

WarOne wrote:

Marzillius wrote:
Seriously, this GW hate is getting silly. PP is even more expensive than GW when you consider price per model, and yet you keep whining about GW prices. The irony is massive.

Actually, the GW irony weighs significantly less now ever since they changed their cumbersome metal models to Finecast, which now needs a special tube of liquid green stuff to fix.

Only if you lack the comprehension of 'faulty product - return product'.

Liquid green stuff has far more use than filling air bubbles.

Come on guys, let's give it a rest. We've had the PP vs. GW thread a million and one times, we're hardly going to tread new ground by turning this thread into the million and second.

Almost too many releases to keep up with. I'll be picking up some Gallows Groves in February, and maybe some Kayazy Eliminators.

Manchu wrote:Pile of new gak?

I find this thread to be aptly named.

You are aware that Frazzled stepping down and becoming a respectable poster once more didn't leave an opening for a new troll-mod on Dakka.

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:Pile of new gak?

I find this thread to be aptly named.

You are aware that Frazzled stepping down and becoming a respectable poster once more didn't leave an opening for a new troll-mod on Dakka.

Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make me a troll or justify your name-calling. These models look like gak to me. It's well established that posters can say that models posted in N&R look like gak to them. Please look up any thread in N&R about GW models for a reference. There are no special rules that protect PP from criticism. Now, keep your personal attacks to yourself.

I'm pretty sure that the Eliminators are the best PP female sculpts I've seen - clean, with no exaggerated proportions. Definitely going to be picking them up next year.

Fortunately, none of the rest are releases for factions I play

Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

I think they are objectively good when judged in genre-neutral terms (as if they were random models on Hasslefree or something). They are good pieces of work in the sense that Space Marines are not so good. But that doesn't mean much to me. Space Marines are perfect for what they do -- OTT gothic sci-fi total war. Space Marines are above such petty considerations as "scale" and "realism." These Eliminators excel in those aspects but they don't fit well into the steampunk-fantasy world they're supposed to work in. How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example? Frankly, I find them really, really boring with regard to my expectations from the WM/H genre. I like Constance Blaize a lot better, although her sculpt may not be as good in technical terms. PP see-saws back and forth on these things. You can even see that in this wave -- you've got these very staid Eliminators and then the way OTT chunky, cartoon monsters to join the rest of the chunky, cartoon monsters for Everblight. It's really all over the place.

Manchu wrote:It's well established that posters can say that models posted in N&R look like gak to them.

When you are the one defining what is acceptable to post that will be the case.

Manchu wrote:Please look up any thread in N&R about GW models for a reference. There are no special rules that protect PP from criticism.

Stop pretending it is your criticism rather than your phrasing I'm objecting to.

Ah well, when in Rome and all that.

Marzillius wrote:PP does something, Dakkadakka goes YAAAAAY!

GW does something, Dakkadakka goes BOOOOOO!

There's a lot more that goes into it than that, but I guess oversimplifying the issue better supports your position, so let's just pretend people don't have valid reasons for thinking the way they do and say it's all blind hate/love.

I'm not even sure I get where this is coming from. I've seen a lot of negativity towards PP's various offerings lately in these threads, so I don't know how people can say "PP must be able to get away with anything, nyeeh!"...yeah, there sure is a lot of bias in this thread, but it doesn't seem to be blind PP love to me. We have a lot of people calling all of the sculpts "gak" as usual, and more still accusing PP of "ripping off" GW because a head on one of their beast models has tentacles. How does that say "GW does something, Dakka goes 'Boo!'"...hell, look at the thread title even, "Pile of New gak"...yeah, Dakka <3 PP alright.

George Spiggott wrote:When you are the one defining what is acceptable to post that will be the case.

Them were the rules long before I started enforcing them, as you well know.

George Spiggot wrote:Stop pretending it is your criticism rather than your phrasing I'm objecting to.

Okay, but you have to stop pretending that everyone who dislikes things you like are trolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:I'm not even sure I get where this is coming from. I've seen a lot of negativity towards PP's various offerings lately in these threads ...

It just might be because some people genuinely don't like PP stuff even though they would dearly love to since, after 40k, it is the most popular wargame in many areas. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's more complicated than that. This site is mostly about GW stuff and so PP is bound to be held up as a comparison. A lot of what's written about PP on Dakka is motivated by Coke v. Pepsi sort of zero-sum-fandom. But not all of it. Sometimes, PP just makes stuff that some people sincerely find gakky.

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

They're not bad, but no better than, say, the GW Death Cult Assassins. While refreshingly free of the usual exaggerated female anatomical details, they're actually rather bland looking. Manchu is right about the other models - they're ugly, unintentionally cartoony, and the level of detail is GW circa 2nd Edition. Seriously, if GW had put them out, this thread would be (a) ten times longer and (b) filled with posters trying to top each other's invective about how rubbish they are.

Tailgunner wrote:Seriously, if GW had put them out, this thread would be (a) ten times longer and (b) filled with posters trying to top each other's invective about how rubbish they are.

That is a fact. And, getting to Sid's question, it contributes to why there is a perception that Dakka is pro-PP. I use Dakka almost exclusively for my wargaming forum needs (shocker, I know) but when I do venture to other sites (usually for WM/H info) I am often shocked to see posters complaining there about PP as bitterly as Dakkanauts complain here about GW. I think it's like family. When you're in your living room with just your parents and siblings everyone feels comfortable saying "Uncle Kirby's a right donkey-cave; I sure wish Matt Wilson was our uncle instead." And that's even the case if you actually like Uncle Kirby. But if you overheard the other family talking, they might say Uncle Matt is a douchebag among themselves. Thing is, as Sid points out, there are plenty of Dakkanauts who don't have good things to say about PP. But it's not even as close to as bitter, hateful, and malicious as the anti-GW invective. And just like with GW, there are other posters standing by to call you a troll if you dare to post that some models look like gak to you.

The eliminators are the best of the bunch by far. Kind of disappointed with the Legion releases. Didn't like the original metal beasts and was hoping for something different when they were done in plastic. Oh well, at least they're cheaper now..

The tree is nice but as far as I can tell there's no variation in them. I know its just a tree, but a little variation would be nice for something that's FA:4 imo; so you don't have so many duplicates if you max out on them.

Manchu wrote:

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

I think they are objectively good when judged in genre-neutral terms (as if they were random models on Hasslefree or something). They are good pieces of work in the sense that Space Marines are not so good. But that doesn't mean much to me. Space Marines are perfect for what they do -- OTT gothic sci-fi total war. Space Marines are above such petty considerations as "scale" and "realism." These Eliminators excel in those aspects but they don't fit well into the steampunk-fantasy world they're supposed to work in. How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example? Frankly, I find them really, really boring with regard to my expectations from the WM/H genre. I like Constance Blaize a lot better, although her sculpt may not be as good in technical terms. PP see-saws back and forth on these things. You can even see that in this wave -- you've got these very staid Eliminators and then the way OTT chunky, cartoon monsters to join the rest of the chunky, cartoon monsters for Everblight. It's really all over the place.

Okay, so you don't think they belong as per the fluff?

The world of Warmachine and Hordes is bigger than just golem
powered combat, just as 40k is bigger than Space Marines vs.
the Universe.

Kayazy are a glorified version of the mafia/yakuza/street gangs,
and so they're going to look like dagger wielding ruffians of one
sort or another.

Hmmm, some decent points here, on both sides. I guess the best way to avoid friction in the community is to moderate your comments and refrain from saying anything too over the top in the name of entertaining posting. (I found Manchu's post entertaining, and I'm a PP fan).

On the topic of GW/PP love and hate, well, I dunno. It's pretty obvious to me that PP have their share of stinkers when it comes to models. They can be a pain to put together, or look really really stupid, especially some of the older models. But even newer ones look pretty bad in my eyes- such as the scythean. I like the ravagore and the carnivean, but the sythean is really dopey looking as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather a GW carnifex any day. There are dumb ass models in every PP faction and they do charge premium prices. I think it's fair that if GW is getting flak for that, then PP should too.

On the releases, Kazays look decent, Proteus is cooler in concept than execution (they shouldn't have used the carnivean chassis for that concept IMO), plastic beasts look better than expected, but I am wondering if those pictures are actually the plastics and not the metals- they look identical. Gallows tree is absolutely stupid looking. Skeletons don't look right in PP's bulky style. Way too cartoony. Urgh.

I would guess that the photos taken are of the metal proofs or whatever you wish to call them. This is based only on the fact that the Desecrator that was shown around at WMW was metal, but was said to be coming out in plastic.

Those Eliminators make the tragedy that is Anastasia di Bray all the more tragic.

Great sculpts all around, and I love the tentacle-faced Legion beastie. It will be interesting to see if those kits are actually the plastic versions. They're the identical pictures from the metal models. Still, plastic warbeasts is a Good Thing (tm).

The couple gals sculpts are very very well executed and a step forward... calling it gak is errr biased...

Marzillius wrote:PP does something, Dakkadakka goes YAAAAAY!

GW does something, Dakkadakka goes BOOOOOO!


Seriously, this GW hate is getting silly. PP is even more expensive than GW when you consider price per model, and yet you keep whining about GW prices. The irony is massive.

Manchu wrote:

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

I think they are objectively good when judged in genre-neutral terms (as if they were random models on Hasslefree or something). They are good pieces of work in the sense that Space Marines are not so good. But that doesn't mean much to me. Space Marines are perfect for what they do -- OTT gothic sci-fi total war. Space Marines are above such petty considerations as "scale" and "realism." These Eliminators excel in those aspects but they don't fit well into the steampunk-fantasy world they're supposed to work in. How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example? Frankly, I find them really, really boring with regard to my expectations from the WM/H genre. I like Constance Blaize a lot better, although her sculpt may not be as good in technical terms. PP see-saws back and forth on these things. You can even see that in this wave -- you've got these very staid Eliminators and then the way OTT chunky, cartoon monsters to join the rest of the chunky, cartoon monsters for Everblight. It's really all over the place.

What? You dont like either these cartoon monsters or the well sculpted ladies? Both are part of Warmachine and Hordes from the get go... I don't see why you say they don't fit its like saying spacemarinezzz don't fit 40k...

Manchu wrote: How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example?

This is a very poor example to use to justify your argument.

Vlad's choice of armor and weaponry is meant to be sort of outmoded/outdated in the setting itself. He is part of the old guard and his appearance is symbolid of this fact.

He is in effect wearing old fashioned things by Khadoran standards.

Sort of like showing up to a Wild West showdown in a suit of platemail...

Don't let that get in the way of your ranting, but maybe choose an example that makes more sense...

Marzillius wrote:PP does something, Dakkadakka goes YAAAAAY!

GW does something, Dakkadakka goes BOOOOOO!


Seriously, this GW hate is getting silly. PP is even more expensive than GW when you consider price per model, and yet you keep whining about GW prices. The irony is massive.

It depends on your perspective. Most of the PP-haters simply stay clear of the PP threads. Personally, I just don't like their World of Warcraft aesthetic and all the Warjack models that look the same. The Cthulhu-nid makes me just hear a 'pbbbpbbbpbbb' raspberry noise in my head.

On the other hand, this forum is mostly for GW fans so everyone reads the GW threads and the haters are more vocal. Plus, GW oftentimes actually makes the occasional really good sculpt and their plastics are amazing.

Manchu wrote:Okay, but you have to stop pretending that everyone who dislikes things you like are trolls.

I see you've got the 'not reading what I posted' part of the troll-mod role sorted as well.

Manchu wrote:And just like with GW, there are other posters standing by to call you a troll if you dare to post that some models look like gak to you.

Aw diddums! Try writing better criticism, like you did later in the thread. I don't agree with any of what you wrote when you clarified your position but I have no problem with it.

Absolutionis wrote: The Cthulhu-nid makes me just hear a 'pbbbpbbbpbbb' raspberry noise in my head.

Now imagine that noise coming from the belly of a 20 foot tall dragon monster and tell me it isn't unsettling to some degree.

edit: Incidentally, it is a common phenomena "in these parts" to wiggle the fingers in front of the mouthparts (like tentacles) and intone in a suitably cyclopean and menacing tone "WOULD YOU LIKE A STICKY BUN?"

I have no idea why, but i fear I started it.

Absolutionis wrote:
The Cthulhu-nid makes me just hear a 'pbbbpbbbpbbb' raspberry noise in my head.

So did you have the same thoughts about the lictors and Y genestears?

Good looking girls, but they do not fit the Khador theme, very well.

I might see them first, then decide on picking them up. Simple fact of the matter is that they won't be worth adding to an army for any price, because they will get wiped out without doing anything other then looking good...

Grot 6, they seem to fit it with the other Kayazy we're seen reasonably well.

Sure, they're not going to fit in with a wall of Men-o-War or Iron Fangs, but neither are the Kossite Woodsmen - or one of the most recognisable Khador units, the Doom Reavers.

And at 3pts for a pair of 5 damage stealthed duellists with Gang and a Combo Strike, I can seem myself running them - if nothing else, they should be fun in a Four Star MacBain list...

Dysartes wrote:
And at 3pts for a pair of 5 damage stealthed duellists with Gang and a Combo Strike, I can seem myself running them - if nothing else, they should be fun in a Four Star MacBain list...

Indeed, plus Def 17 in HTH is nothing to sneeze at. Though if you want to take the piss even further just cast Iron Flesh on them... They're definitley going to find a home in both my eVlad and Old Witch non-theme lists.

I wasn't a huge fan of the Eliminators at first, but they've grown on me...

Unfortunately, it's not in this thread, but I LOVE the new troll war wagon . Takes the cake of all the sneak peaks, and beats all prior Battle Engines for pure sexiness, imo!

CT GAMER wrote:Sort of like showing up to a Wild West showdown in a suit of platemail...

Wouldn't be a bad idea, really. I'd trust metal plates more than I would a leather duster to stop bullets.

You know that bullets contributed greatly to plate armor going out of use, right?

Yeah. Still better than nothing!

Except not really because you can't even attempt to run or dodge in plate armor.

I dunno, I was trying to be funny but now I'm just confused.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

Damn I'm too easily bribed with decent female models, for the first time ever, Warmachine releases figures that have me considering the system.

Tree thing is nice too.

+1 to this. While I'm not really considering spending money on the system, all I can say is wow. That there is some quality model.

Definitely getting the eliminators. It'd be nice if they redid Kazazy Assassins with sculpts this nice.

malfred wrote:Okay, so you don't think they belong as per the fluff?

No, I don't think they belong as per the aesthetic.

NAVARRO wrote:What? You dont like either these cartoon monsters or the well sculpted ladies? Both are part of Warmachine and Hordes from the get go... I don't see why you say they don't fit its like saying spacemarinezzz don't fit 40k...

Again, it's not to say I don't think they fit the background. I just don't think that these two very widely divergent styles of sculpting seem like they go with the same system. Either it's ultra-realistic Eliminators or the completely-OTT Legion. Also, I did say the models were good in a genre-neutral sort of way, if they weren't produced for a specific line.

CT GAMER wrote:

Manchu wrote: How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example?

This is a very poor example to use to justify your argument.

Vlad's choice of armor and weaponry is meant to be sort of outmoded/outdated in the setting itself. He is part of the old guard and his appearance is symbolid of this fact.

He is in effect wearing old fashioned things by Khadoran standards.

Sort of like showing up to a Wild West showdown in a suit of platemail...

Don't let that get in the way of your ranting, but maybe choose an example that makes more sense...

So now stating a dissenting opinion is ranting? Just to clarify, no it is not.

Moving on to your substantive post: I am not surprised that you think I gave a poor example given that you totally misunderstood my point. I don't blame you as others (quoted above) also seem to have missed it. It does not matter at all that Vladimir is dressed in old-fashioned stuff. His sculpts do make sense next to other characters, for example Cygnaran, scultps, that are not supposed to be "vintage" at all. The question is one of aesthetics -- low fantasy ("realism") versus high fantasy ("romanticism"). In high fantasy, armor concepts do not need to "work" IRL. If I built a suit of armor from PP's model ranges, it wouldn't make sense. It would be unwearable. That doesn't matter to me -- it can still make for an awesome looking miniature. It's an aesthetic choice -- like I mentioned about SM: they aren't good models if you're looking for "realism" but thankfully, that's not what we're looking for. Same regarding WM/H. The Eliminators, as extremely realistic models don't make sense in a world with someone who wears pauldrons three times larger than his head (at least) or any of the other more "romantic" characters.

Now, you say that my example is poor and I guess you will now say that it was so poor that you could never get that point from it. Fortunately, I already gave another example of this same thing, although you did not bother to consider it in your rush to accuse me of ranting. I used the example of Constance Blaize, saying that while her model might not be as technically good (in terms of proportions or pose) as the Eliminators, it's a much better model for the WM line.


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George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:And just like with GW, there are other posters standing by to call you a troll if you dare to post that some models look like gak to you.

Aw diddums! Try writing better criticism, like you did later in the thread. I don't agree with any of what you wrote when you clarified your position but I have no problem with it.

"Diddums" doesn't really apply, does it? -- unless you are just trying to be ironic about calling me the troll here. As to "good" criticism, that seems to be premised on the whole Coke v. Pepsi approach. After all, I can right "I agree with OP, this is gak" and you call me a troll. Or I can write a paragraph explaining exactly what I don't like and CT GAMER can say I'm ranting. You can't please all the people all the time.

Manchu, if you think that the Eliminators don't fit in the
aesthetic, then you haven't really seen enough of the
aesthetic to make that judgment call. The setting isn't just
a steampunk setting, it's also a fantasy setting, and assassins
wrapped in cloth with dual daggers fit that aesthetic very well.

I have pored over the galleries on PP's site for years and watched their new releases with great interest over the same period. I have more than enough knowledge of this setting to make that judgment although I would never claim (and have never claimed) that my judgment applies to you or anyone else. It's not that they're wearing cloth or that they have dual daggers. It's that there is nothing more to them than that. They're just really boring for assassins, especially in a world next to Iron Fangs, Men-O-War, and Gun Carriages. They're just not very steampunk/high fantasy. Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic. It's not a new problem by any means. This particular wave just highlights how schizophrenic PP's lines are.

Manchu wrote:Divergent aesthetic. and how schizophrenic PP's lines are.

Some random examples for us to compare ok?



IMO would purely aesthetically fit just nice alongside these

















I will stop here. theres plenty more, not all PP stuff is Overthetop mate.

But I agree with you the line has many ups and downs overall... In this case its a up

Hold on, brother -- it's not just a matter of "ups and downs" in terms of skilled sculpting. Like I mentioned, the Eliminators are great models just in terms of models. The Everblight monsters aren't so good in any way to my eyes but I think there are good Everblight monsters in the line. By contrast, the Eliminators are great models but they just don't particularly "belong" to the Iron Kingdoms much less Khador. I'm glad you posted Sorscha, as she is the leading image for what Khador is like. There is a total disconnect between the Eliminators and her style or Irusk or Vladimir or the Butcher or ... you get the point.

Manchu wrote:Hold on, brother -- it's not just a matter of "ups and downs" in terms of skilled sculpting. Like I mentioned, the Eliminators are great models just in terms of models. The Everblight monsters aren't so good in any way to my eyes but I think there are good Everblight monsters in the line. By contrast, the Eliminators are great models but they just don't particularly "belong" to the Iron Kingdoms much less Khador. I'm glad you posted Sorscha, as she is the leading image for what Khador is like. There is a total disconnect between the Eliminators and her style or Irusk or Vladimir or the Butcher or ... you get the point.

There's a difference there because Sorscha and Butcher are military. Kayazy
Assassins, including Eliminators, aren't. I don't think they're that far apart in
style.

If these had been painted purple/white and labeled "Flame Knife Eliminators" or something, I doubt anyone would have said "just a tic, shouldn't those be Khador rather than Protectorate?"


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EDIT: Even better, paint them with black hair and olive skin and call them "Idrian Assasins." There's nothing about them but paint that makes them Khador.

Well, they are Khador Allies, so looking like they would fit in with multiple factions kinda fits. They can be mercs afterall.

Mercs means something more specific than that in WM.

More specifically, the Ally rules means something more specific - unlike Mercenary models, which may be fielded in certain Faction armies, Ally units are Faction units which may be fielded in some Mercenary armies.

I kind of like the thought that not everything in PPs games are uniformed in appearance. Also, the models are not so out of place from their respected factions that you can't picture them in that faction...or at least affiliated with that faction.

malfred wrote:Manchu, if you think that the Eliminators don't fit in the
aesthetic, then you haven't really seen enough of the
aesthetic to make that judgment call. The setting isn't just
a steampunk setting, it's also a fantasy setting, and assassins
wrapped in cloth with dual daggers fit that aesthetic very well.

Just to clarify: The Iron Kingdoms are NOT "Steampunk". They are "Full Metal Fantasy" (small nitpick I know).

The company has and does make a distinction on this.

Is it hard to believe that in a nation as big as Khador that various fashion styles and practices might exist at the same time, just as they do in real life?

So what exactly shuld they have been wearing to look properly "khadoran"? Fur hats? That is easily fixed...

CT GAMER wrote:

malfred wrote:Manchu, if you think that the Eliminators don't fit in the
aesthetic, then you haven't really seen enough of the
aesthetic to make that judgment call. The setting isn't just
a steampunk setting, it's also a fantasy setting, and assassins
wrapped in cloth with dual daggers fit that aesthetic very well.

Just to clarify: The Iron Kingdoms are NOT "Steampunk". They are "Full Metal Fantasy" (small nitpick I know).

The company has and does make a distinction on this.

Is it hard to believe that in a nation as big as Khador that various fashion styles and practices might exist at the same time, just as they do in real life?

So what exactly shuld they have been wearing to look properly "khadoran"? Fur hats? That is easily fixed...

Hats might be a bit much..but a bit of fur trim might be just the thing.

Manchu wrote: Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic.

They look like Kayazy to me. Which is of course what they're supposed to look like.

RiTides wrote: especially considering how brittle and non-posable PP's plastic/resinish mix is.

It's not a resiny/plastic mix, it's a PVC plastic variety. It's just that GW has ingrained us to believing that their PVA variety plastics is what we think of when we think plastic models.

It's not surprising, really, since most people only interact with PVC when confronted with piping.




Or making boffers.

derek wrote:

Manchu wrote: Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic.

They look like Kayazy to me. Which is of course what they're supposed to look like.

Sure they do, as they're painted red and black in that pic.

CT GAMER wrote:Just to clarify: The Iron Kingdoms are NOT "Steampunk". They are "Full Metal Fantasy" (small nitpick I know).

I like that phrase but isn't it just a piece of PP marketing rather than a genre? Sort of like "GrimDark"? Although TBH steampunk seems like it can mean anything as long as goggles are involved.

Is it hard to believe that in a nation as big as Khador that various fashion styles and practices might exist at the same time, just as they do in real life?

But, as I mentioned, that's completely beside the point ...

So what exactly shuld they have been wearing to look properly "khadoran"? Fur hats? That is easily fixed...

I dunno, PP doesn't pay me to design models and I'm not saying they should. See, that's a good question for PP and it happens to be the question at the center of my opinion. Also, saying it can be fixed implies that it's broken -- of course, I know you're just assuming my POV for a sec there, not actually admitting you think there is any problem. Anyway, I don't think anyone can gainsay me on giving them a Protectorate paintjob and sneaking them past fans (even fans!) as "Idrian Assassins." The fur hats are not a bad idea -- or, really, fur-lined something. When you look at the Idrians, for example, it's their turbans/wrappings that give them away. Design consistency can be interesting and it's not like PP has never done it before.

Idrians are technically mercenaries and protectorate models, too.

They don't quite fit the Protectorate (uncovered faces, shirtless
bodies, guns!!!), and yet they are allied to them. Thus, Allies.

Idrians are clearly desert nomads (you can tell just by looking at them) and the Protectorate is associated with the desert. So it's pretty clear what the connection is there. The Eliminators, IMO, look like nothing. Girls with knives. Just going by the sculpt, they could work for any faction that allows women to wear pants.

Manchu wrote:Idrians are clearly desert nomads (you can tell just by looking at them) and the Protectorate is associated with the desert. So it's pretty clear what the connection is there. The Eliminators, IMO, look like nothing. Girls with knives. Just going by the sculpt, they could work for any faction that allows women to wear pants.

Point is, allies represent groups that are not quite faction models.

Cygnar Precursor Knights are faction models because of a shared faith,
but since Cygnar isn't a religious state, they are also technically mercenaries.

Constance Blaize is also both Cygnar and Mercenary.

The Cryx Allies are the Cephalyx. These guys aren't any of the main
races for Cryx, either, yet they serve as faction models through the Allies
rule (just like every example in these posts). They make deals with
Cryx, but they aren't exactly Cryxian in nature.

Kayazy Assassins are urban fighters, essentially Russian
mafia hired by nobles. They're not ever going to look like the
military arm of Khador. Just think, what would a Khadoran street
thug look like? Kayazy Assassins. And what would an elite girl
Khadoran street thug look like? Eliminators.

It's like the various abhuman Imperial Guard. They don't look
like "stock" Imperial Guard because they're not. There's back
story that supports the aesthetic.

After staring and staring at these models, I can see where the sculptor tried but IMO, they failed. There is a kind of Cossack tunic called the tscherkessa. The hem falls to about the knee and it is worn with tight-fitting pants, as one might expect with riders. The feel of that iconic style is captured to some extent in the existing Kayazy (check out the officer) but the tunics of the Eliminators have been shortened to the point of being unrecognizable unless one goes about it like a detective.

But if you lengthen the tunic, how do you show off the knives?!

Manchu wrote:After staring and staring at these models...

Try not looking at them for a bit. That's what I did, and they've now grown on me now that I've looked again

malfred wrote:Just think, what would a Khadoran street thug look like?

Super generic? They are girls with tight-fitting clothes and knives. There's really not much more that can be said of them. Contrast that incredibly bland description with how you might describe the Cephalyx, to use one of your examples.

It's like the various abhuman Imperial Guard. They don't look like "stock" Imperial Guard because they're not.

Factions are indeed diverse -- it keeps them interesting, of course. But they also need to have some consistency, some kind of connection that makes them work together visually. Again, the Cephalyx clearly wouldn't be paling around with Cygnarans. Anyone with eyes can tell you that, whether they know a thing about the setting or not. The Ogryn are a good example in this regard -- even though they don't look much like rank & file guardsmen, they are still obviously IG units.

So we can argue all night about whether these chicks fit in with Khador. I mean, they could fit in -- as I have hopefully demonstrated, they do so about as well as they fit in with the Protectorate. Maybe I should rephrase: you can look at it as them not being "Khador" enough but it's better to look at it as them not looking enough like anything except genre-neutral girls with knives.


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RiTides wrote:

Manchu wrote:After staring and staring at these models...

Try not looking at them for a bit. That's what I did, and they've now grown on me now that I've looked again

I never stopped thinking they are fine models -- for nearly any game and, incidentally, PP games if you want. A little conversion (as CT GAMER pointed out) and you could even use them for Khador.


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malfred wrote:But if you lengthen the tunic, how do you show off the knives?!

The assassin officer has some nasty looking ones tucked into his belt. Maybe it's the stems more than the knives, eh fellas?

Platuan4th wrote:It's not a resiny/plastic mix, it's a PVC plastic variety. It's just that GW has ingrained us to believing that their PVA variety plastics is what we think of when we think plastic models.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Injection-moulded polystyrene kits existed many, many years before GW started producing miniatures in this medium, and have always been known as plastic kits. GW adopted it precisely because it was well established as the best medium for kits, and because they worked out that it's also far better suited to wargaming than metal or resin. However, it requires a bigger outlay in costs than metal or resin, because of the high quality moulds needed. PP have gone for a cheaper option, and the result is distinctly inferior in terms of detail, customisability and practicality. PP may call it 'plastic', but for most people that word means (in the context of this hobby) injection-moulded polysterene.

PP have gone for a cheaper option, and the result is distinctly inferior in terms of detail, customisability and practicality.

Being inferior in terms of detail is a subjective statement. GW makes beautiful plastics, but I think the PP kits are detailed as well.

The vast majority of PP players don't customize anything, they build stock kits: a byproduct of the fact that all models/units have set weapons/wargear. You don't choose loadouts and wargear like you do in 40K, so the need to customize is not integral to the kits.

Also PP gives you parts in the warjack kits to build multiple warjacks (which can be magnetized to get multile uses from same kit) and all pieces to build a unit. It would be like getting the parts to build all the land raiders in one kit.

How are they not practical exactly?

CT GAMER wrote:The vast majority of PP players don't customize anything, they build stock kits: a byproduct of the fact that all models/units have set weapons/wargear. You don't choose loadouts and wargear like you do in 40K, so the need to customize is not integral to the kits.

Even if you don't need to change wargear loadouts, the lack of variants per squad is still a problem. Unless they're marching in formation, you shouldn't need to have two or three clones in one unit.

AlexHolker wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:The vast majority of PP players don't customize anything, they build stock kits: a byproduct of the fact that all models/units have set weapons/wargear. You don't choose loadouts and wargear like you do in 40K, so the need to customize is not integral to the kits.

Even if you don't need to change wargear loadouts, the lack of variants per squad is still a problem. Unless they're marching in formation, you shouldn't need to have two or three clones in one unit.

But that's not because of the plastic. PP has always been like that. All their old metal units are like that too. I think its just a design decision.

Manchu wrote:Mercs means something more specific than that in WM.

Quite aware of that, seeing as I own a Merc army. They are Allies, so they can be taken in Merc agendas, and looking like they fit in with several armies fits them. All factions in WM/H have many different looks within their factions. Khador has everything from Man O Wars in steam powered armor, to Kossites, to Winterguard to Widowmakers to Assault Commandos. The factions look varied, and have since Prime Mk I. Khador may have the market on heavy jacks, but they have lots of themes in their infantry.

Thanatos73 wrote:All factions in WM/H have many different looks within their factions.

We covered all that above. All these fluff arguments don't really address the point of these Eliminator models being technically well-executed but seriously bland compared to the rest of the visual world of WM/H (not just Khador). I mean, you can say "well, the fluff supports them looking boring" and maybe that's the case but who cares? They're still boring.

Manchu wrote:Factions are indeed diverse -- it keeps them interesting, of course. But they also need to have some consistency, some kind of connection that makes them work together visually. Again, the Cephalyx clearly wouldn't be paling around with Cygnarans. Anyone with eyes can tell you that, whether they know a thing about the setting or not. The Ogryn are a good example in this regard -- even though they don't look much like rank & file guardsmen, they are still obviously IG units.

So we can argue all night about whether these chicks fit in with Khador. I mean, they could fit in -- as I have hopefully demonstrated, they do so about as well as they fit in with the Protectorate. Maybe I should rephrase: you can look at it as them not being "Khador" enough but it's better to look at it as them not looking enough like anything except genre-neutral girls with knives.

As mentioned before, these models are civilians, so don't have to fit in that well with the main range (although the Morris dancing one is posed weirdly)

I know where you're coming from though. Make a cygnar army with Trenchers and Sword knights and try telling me that it's a coherent design aesthetic.

Manchu wrote:They're just really boring for assassins, especially in a world next to Iron Fangs, Men-O-War, and Gun Carriages. They're just not very steampunk/high fantasy.

God forbid that sneaky mafia assassins be less than flamboyant... personally I think it works... you don't pay attention to em, oh, two chicks with piddling knives.. and suddenly you find they're backstriking your caster...

So the models are boring so that you can bore your opponent into losing?

No, the models are not boring and again not all PP models are Overthetop so IMO they fit just fine in the range.

The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

ProtoClone wrote:The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

If you don't want to discuss the issue why bother posting? From the outset, I explicitly mentioned that I was expressing my opinion rather than anyone else's (which is obvious, one would think) so it's not like the point is to get everyone to agree. Thing is, just because you don't like a model doesn't mean (a) you shouldn't comment or (b) if you do comment you're either trolling or ranting. I guess we could all be "done with it" regarding any subject but then what would be the point of a discussion board?

Manchu wrote:

Thanatos73 wrote:All factions in WM/H have many different looks within their factions.

We covered all that above. All these fluff arguments don't really address the point of these Eliminator models being technically well-executed but seriously bland compared to the rest of the visual world of WM/H (not just Khador). I mean, you can say "well, the fluff supports them looking boring" and maybe that's the case but who cares? They're still boring.

I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all. I do also believe they fit the range and Khador specifically. You don't obviously, and that's fine, different opinions and all.

Thanatos73 wrote:I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all.

Okay, sorry, I'm using loaded terms from the get-go rather than explaining how I'm reaching that conclusion. It has been said of the Eliminators that they are supposed to be relatively simple looking (is that more acceptable than "boring" for this stage of the argument?) because of various fluff reasons: they are sneaky non-military gangster hitwomen. They wouldn't wear armor or anything else that would call attention to themselves. Is that the idea? Assuming it is, the models should look unassuming, right? So you tell that to a sculptor and he creates a model that doesn't stand out.

Now, I'm not saying this is what actually happened at PP headquarters. In all reality, I think what happened is that the concept artist unsuccessfully tried to split the difference between the established Kayazy "street cossak" and something more feminine, the result being that the Kayazy flavor is now missing. But I'm proposing the hypothetical as a response to all the fluff arguments I've seen ITT. In essence, folks keep telling me that these chicks are supposed to be very "under the top" (as opposed to over it) and I keep responding that, yes, fine, they're definitely bland compared to other PP models and that's my problem with them. It doesn't matter to me, for whatever background reason, whether they're not supposed to stand out or look interesting next to other PP models.

Manchu wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

If you don't want to discuss the issue why bother posting? From the outset, I explicitly mentioned that I was expressing my opinion rather than anyone else's (which is obvious, one would think) so it's not like the point is to get everyone to agree. Thing is, just because you don't like a model doesn't mean (a) you shouldn't comment or (b) if you do comment you're either trolling or ranting. I guess we could all be "done with it" regarding any subject but then what would be the point of a discussion board?

I don't mind the issue and don't mind people expressing opinion.

Manchu wrote:

Thanatos73 wrote:I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all.

Okay, sorry, I'm using loaded terms from the get-go rather than explaining how I'm reaching that conclusion. It has been said of the Eliminators that they are supposed to be relatively simple looking (is that more acceptable than "boring" for this stage of the argument?) because of various fluff reasons: they are sneaky non-military gangster hitwomen. They wouldn't wear armor or anything else that would call attention to themselves. Is that the idea? Assuming it is, the models should look unassuming, right? So you tell that to a sculptor and he creates a model that doesn't stand out.

Now, I'm not saying this is what actually happened at PP headquarters. In all reality, I think what happened is that the concept artist unsuccessfully tried to split the difference between the established Kayazy "street cossak" and something more feminine, the result being that the Kayazy flavor is now missing. But I'm proposing the hypothetical as a response to all the fluff arguments I've seen ITT. In essence, folks keep telling me that these chicks are supposed to be very "under the top" (as opposed to over it) and I keep responding that, yes, fine, they're definitely bland compared to other PP models and that's my problem with them. It doesn't matter to me, for whatever background reason, whether they're not supposed to stand out or look interesting next to other PP models.

I don't know how the sculpting process works at PP but I do assume they sculpt based on quite accurate concept art, so there's not much room for creative sculpting.

I believe our divergence is only when you say "they're definitely bland compared to other PP models" because there are many more PP minis similar to these gals... you may not like it but its there.
I think its a very smart move to balance different concepts in the same range.

I agree completely about having different concepts in the same faction range, which I why I wouldn't complain about Precursor Knights in the Cygnar line. But the thing about Precursor Knights is that they still look very interesting to me. They're very high fantasy, which is suitable for the setting (which is just D&D with guns and robots, after all), because the Iron Kingdoms are bigger than steampunk. The Eliminators are not particularly anything. And sure, PP does produce other bland models -- I'm not saying everything else they produce is interesting. That's a different quanta than whether the miniature is "good." For example, in this same wave, the Cthulhu-esque Proteus isn't an especially good sculpt but at least it's interesting.

Manchu wrote:

Thanatos73 wrote:I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all.

Okay, sorry, I'm using loaded terms from the get-go rather than explaining how I'm reaching that conclusion. It has been said of the Eliminators that they are supposed to be relatively simple looking (is that more acceptable than "boring" for this stage of the argument?) because of various fluff reasons: they are sneaky non-military gangster hitwomen. They wouldn't wear armor or anything else that would call attention to themselves. Is that the idea? Assuming it is, the models should look unassuming, right? So you tell that to a sculptor and he creates a model that doesn't stand out.

Now, I'm not saying this is what actually happened at PP headquarters. In all reality, I think what happened is that the concept artist unsuccessfully tried to split the difference between the established Kayazy "street cossak" and something more feminine, the result being that the Kayazy flavor is now missing. But I'm proposing the hypothetical as a response to all the fluff arguments I've seen ITT. In essence, folks keep telling me that these chicks are supposed to be very "under the top" (as opposed to over it) and I keep responding that, yes, fine, they're definitely bland compared to other PP models and that's my problem with them. It doesn't matter to me, for whatever background reason, whether they're not supposed to stand out or look interesting next to other PP models.

That's understandable. Personally, I dig the the low key look of the Eliminators, and of other understated models they make, mostly from the IK liine.

Manchu wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

If you don't want to discuss the issue why bother posting? From the outset, I explicitly mentioned that I was expressing my opinion rather than anyone else's (which is obvious, one would think) so it's not like the point is to get everyone to agree. Thing is, just because you don't like a model doesn't mean (a) you shouldn't comment or (b) if you do comment you're either trolling or ranting. I guess we could all be "done with it" regarding any subject but then what would be the point of a discussion board?

there does come a point when after you have stated the same thing 10 or twelve times that it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.

This thread has been going around in circles for a good while now, and I get the sneaking suspicion you arent going to budge, so yes what is the point of discussing this further?

Not to mention if you as the primary person take your side of the argument weren't a mod this would have already been closed for that very reason as history has shown...

So the thread devolved into trying to convince Manchu how to like PP models when he just won't? Let me know how that turns out.

CT GAMER wrote:there does come a point when after you have stated the same thing 10 or twelve times that it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.

This thread has been going around in circles for a good while now, and I get the sneaking suspicion you aren’t going to budge, so yes what is the point of discussing this further?

Not to mention if you as the primary person take your side of the argument weren't a mod this would have already been closed for that very reason as history has shown.

+1 to this.

Manchu wrote:

derek wrote:

Manchu wrote: Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic.

They look like Kayazy to me. Which is of course what they're supposed to look like.

Sure they do, as they're painted red and black in that pic.

So in other words obvious Troll is obvious. Gotcha. Cause being dressed in the same manner as previous Kayazy has nothing to do with their look, it's all just a paint scheme.

CT GAMER wrote:I get the sneaking suspicion you arent going to budge, so yes what is the point of discussing this further?

The value of a discussion isn't getting everyone else to agree with you. I'm not trying to convince you not to like something you do or trying to make you feel stupid for liking it (I even explained why I think the models are good, in a sense). I'm just trying to explain why I have the "sheer audacity" not to like it -- and, no, it's not because I'm trolling everyone who does. Rather than addressing me with personal attacks and alleging that the thread is pointless, you could just address the actual points -- you know, participating in a discussion. And, if you no longer want to participate in the discussion, there's really no need to chime back in about how "there's no point" to the thread going forward considering that is just spam.

Kurgash wrote:So the thread devolved into trying to convince Manchu how to like PP models when he just won't?

Actually, as I have mentioned several times, there are plenty of PP models that I like. But if someone dares to say they don't like a model they must OBVIOUSLY (see below) be some kind of troll or, at the very best, be a "hater." In other words, I don't like them for what I think are good reasons rather than I "just won't" like them.

derek wrote:So in other words obvious Troll is obvious. Gotcha. Cause being dressed in the same manner as previous Kayazy has nothing to do with their look, it's all just a paint scheme.

Wow, please read the thread. I already have gone into detail as to how they are not, in fact, dressed like previous Kayazy AND why, if they were painted differently, they could have easily been sold as belonging to another faction. Calling someone a troll, especially when you haven't bothered to address their points, is just a personal attack.

Why is everyone trying to convince someone that they're wrong for not liking something? Opinions! Subjective! Visual appeal is not something that can be argued!

I think Manchu's got a good point. I really like the miniatures myself, but I don't think that they're particularly in keeping with the overall look of the Khador army. But I don't play Khador, so lucky me.

Manchu wrote:I agree completely about having different concepts in the same faction range, which I why I wouldn't complain about Precursor Knights in the Cygnar line. But the thing about Precursor Knights is that they still look very interesting to me. They're very high fantasy, which is suitable for the setting (which is just D&D with guns and robots, after all), because the Iron Kingdoms are bigger than steampunk. The Eliminators are not particularly anything. And sure, PP does produce other bland models -- I'm not saying everything else they produce is interesting. That's a different quanta than whether the miniature is "good." For example, in this same wave, the Cthulhu-esque Proteus isn't an especially good sculpt but at least it's interesting.

Speaking of my personal experience, if they only explored the jacks concepts I would not be a PP collector anymore... collected Khador and donated all of them because I could not stand for more machines with different arms, all to samey and that, yes to me, its boring... So when Hordes introduced some of the coolest factions for any wargame ( troolbloods) I was really back on board.
I can even tell you that even if I don't find some of the concepts for other factions interesting for me personally I cannot deny that they are pushing things forward concept wise. Back to these gals, I don't find them bland and they should be really fun to paint up... thats good enough for me.

As for this debate, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just having a chat with users that disagree on some points and agree on others... and thats the point of a forum.

Sorry, my post was not targetting at you Navarro. I always find your posts to be well written and worth reading.

I absolutely agree with you on the concepts thing. As a whole, they've produced a very tangible and unique theme, something that many wargames companies fall short of in my opinion. However, I don't think that every miniature is a success. Whilst I like the Eliminators models, they don't have that Khador feel for me, if you see what I mean.

One thing that has always drawn me to PP is the big model v. small model dynamic of the game. Whether we're talking beasts or 'jacks, I like the tactical potential of this principle -- and it doesn't really exist in GW's games, either, so no one can claim that PP didn't offer something new to the market. Model-wise, this also makes collecting the lines fun because a force looks good with some uniformity (a gaggle of trenchers, for example) broken up by something big and impressive (like Ole Rowdy). The key, IMO, to making this dynamic work aesthetically is consistency. I can't have a big cartoonish 'jack and a bunch of incredibly realistic support soldiers. So you can see that the Trenchers are not realistic. They're WWI doughboys cosplaying renaissance men-at-war. It works great next to a 'jack. Also, you can't go too generic. A lot of what holds the aesthetic together, the "brand image" you might say, is how everything is high rather than low fantasy. Those trenchers may be inspired by WWI troops but they are clearly Cygnaran. Trenchers are a great example of how you can have something slightly off-faction (in this case, there's no lightning bits) and still maintain faction coherency.


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This wave of releases, IMO, shows how PP can slip up in both respects. The new Legion monsters are just more of the same for all intents and purposes. You could imagine one body kit with slightly different heads and arms -- a la GW's Carnifex, which makes the Tyranid comparison even more valid. By contrast, the Eliminators certainly aren't mere copies of what's come before in the Khador line. To the contrary, they're so generic they could fit in elsewhere.

Manchu wrote:The new Legion monsters are just more of the same for all intents and purposes. You could imagine one body kit with slightly different heads and arms -- a la GW's Carnifex, which makes the Tyranid comparison even more valid.

Just to raise a point here, Manchu, but with the exception of Proteus (a character upgrade kit), the Legion beasts previewed are the PP plastic versions of existing heavy warbeasts. AS far as I'm aware, they'll be packaged like the existing Heavy Warjack kits, which is why they look like the same body with the different arms and heads. Proteus builds off the same kit, but with a metal tentacle face (and possible some other bits).

I find it disappointing that the everblight "carnivean chassis" beasts are so similar, given Everblight has the potential to have the most diverse warbeasts since he designs them himself and they don't have to make "sense".

Hey, when you find a base chassis that is brutally effective (Carnivean), varying too far off it is inefficient...

Dysartes wrote:Just to raise a point here, Manchu, but with the exception of Proteus (a character upgrade kit), the Legion beasts previewed are the PP plastic versions of existing heavy warbeasts.

Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box? Legion is probably my current favorite faction (I especially love the Teraph) and agree with DaBoss that their beasts are best when they have a bit more variation.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box?

There are. The Plastic beast can be assembled as one of the 3 or magnetized to swap. It's not 3 kits.

Platuan4th wrote:

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box?

There are. The Plastic beast can be assembled as one of the 3 or magnetized to swap. It's not 3 kits.

In for more plastic warbeast kits!

Dysartes wrote:Hey, when you find a base chassis that is brutally effective (Carnivean), varying too far off it is inefficient...

Amazing sorcerous power... Terrible imagination?

whitedragon wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box?

There are. The Plastic beast can be assembled as one of the 3 or magnetized to swap. It's not 3 kits.

In for more plastic warbeast kits!

Huzzah!


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Balance wrote:Amazing sorcerous power... Terrible imagination?

TBF, there are a fair few "shapes" (I'd say four: bipedal, winged, multi-headed, and quadraped) considering the overall number of big models (twelve). I think the real trouble is that most of the models (seven of them) fall into the bipedal category.

Just got Domination last night, VERY pleased with the trollbloods entries .

The pics of the swamp horror are a letdown...

The plastic direwolf is shown in several of the group shots, looks OK...

Lightning troll looks absolutely AMAZING

RiTides wrote:
Lightning troll looks absolutely AMAZING

Oh hell yeah. And the paint job is sweet.

I enjoyed the fluff. Not mind-boggingly awesome like Metamorphosis
was, but it was impressive. It seems as if the Skorne are always going
to get the best fight scenes (eMorghoul in Metamorphosis, Naaresh
in Domination) and Trolls are going to get some weird stuff (Jarl Skudd
as trickster).

How did I miss that Legion gets a Legionnaire character attachment? He
makes them even more tarpitty than they previously were. Not sure
if I'm a fan of the uneven blight horn on the right side of his forehead.

I think the Swamp Horror fig is really nicely done, just really tiny compared to it's artwork.

Rats - looks like Saturday or Monday before I get Domination and Mr Pigataur... :(

Picked mine up tonight. Reading it now.

CT GAMER wrote:there does come a point when after you have stated the same thing 10 or twelve times that it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.

Because Manchu is the only person who states his dislike for something repeatedly. Wait, there's some other people doing it. I can't recall the subject matter, but it's something to do with a company starting with G.

-Loki- wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:there does come a point when after you have stated the same thing 10 or twelve times that it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.

Because Manchu is the only person who states his dislike for something repeatedly. Wait, there's some other people doing it. I can't recall the subject matter, but it's something to do with a company starting with G.

Well since you brought it up: If you can't understand the dfference between people who state the same general opinion in different threads and conversations with someone saying the same thing over and over in the same thread, well...

Also, you are also about three days late to the party (I tapped out and havent posted here since 11/15). Congratulations.

Now lets get back to hearing what Manchu thinks about those PP models yet again...

So, what are everyone else's thoughts about Domination?? There's stuff in the book that wasn't in this thread, but I figured it made sense to continue here instead of start a new one... that is, if we can stay on topic

As a Cryx player, the Witchdoctor scares me a little bit.

Aduro wrote:As a Cryx player, the Witchdoctor scares me a little bit.

There's a lovely thread over on the Privateer Press Cryx forum going on about this guy. Most of us agree that if you were relying on souls as a major part of your gameplan, you weren't really bringing Cryx's A-game to the table. And now... well, now you'll have even less reason to.

That really is unfortunate due to the units that are priced based on what they can do with those souls: Deathjack, Pistol Wraith, Soulhunters, etc. Take away soul benefits and they're not nearly as good. Yes they are still good, but slamming into a wall of undead, tough Gator Posse isn't exactly fun for them. And then add in that the Witch Doctor is cheap enough to fit into pretty much anyone's armies as a worthwhile investment and now you have even less reason to bring soul collectors.

Did we really need more convincing that our Battle Engine is just a centerpiece for our collection pictures?

Kirbinator wrote:

Aduro wrote:As a Cryx player, the Witchdoctor scares me a little bit.

There's a lovely thread over on the Privateer Press Cryx forum going on about this guy. Most of us agree that if you were relying on souls as a major part of your gameplan, you weren't really bringing Cryx's A-game to the table. And now... well, now you'll have even less reason to.

That really is unfortunate due to the units that are priced based on what they can do with those souls: Deathjack, Pistol Wraith, Soulhunters, etc. Take away soul benefits and they're not nearly as good. Yes they are still good, but slamming into a wall of undead, tough Gator Posse isn't exactly fun for them. And then add in that the Witch Doctor is cheap enough to fit into pretty much anyone's armies as a worthwhile investment and now you have even less reason to bring soul collectors.

Did we really need more convincing that our Battle Engine is just a centerpiece for our collection pictures?

Taking souls away from the Deathjack is the greatest thing ever.

It's not Just souls, but other Living Model triggers as well, which my eBastard list abuses heavily between the Death Tolls and Corruptor. I'm also quite fond of Bloodgorgers in my other lists, and while I don't use her but hardly ever, Mortenebra would also be annoyed with his abilities.

I know there are ways to deal with him. That Phantom Huntered Corruptor's going to have a Buster round with his name on it, that's for sure. Bane Knight scalpels also tend to work well for removing that kind of key model out of a unit.

It's still kind of annoying though the way he seems to so blatantly groin kick a single faction.

Oh that's absolutely right... I'm not sure how I forgot about the Living aspect. Le sigh...

Given the number of "living model" rules Cryx is generally immune to because they're already Undead (apart from the Satyxis and Black Ogrun), I find its a bit rich for them to complain about Blindwater, of all people, getting limited access to the special rule.

Just ask Circle players who have faced you how it feels to be priced with rules which only affect living models, then not being able to use them - Tharn Ravagers being a prime example, off the top of my head (and given I don't play Circle).

Doesn't he work for Every Hordes faction? That's what I was told anyways. If it's just Gators, then yeah, no worries. It's when he starts showing up in every Hordes list the way Rhupert shows up in every Warmachine list that can take him that I'll get annoyed.

You're right- it says he will work for Circle, Legion, Skorne, and Trollbloods...

Cryx at least have multiple options for assassinating a single solo.

While yes, it is a single solo, the Doc is tough enough to kill at range that he will typically do his purpose well before you kill it. See that wall of <insert tarpit infantry here>? Well now they're Undead and Tough. We can deal with Tough, and now Blood Witches may become even more prevalent in metas that feature the Witch Doctor heavily, but being Undead specifically neuters what? Things that rely on souls and living models to be worth their points. What is one specific army in the game most known for?

It's not really complaining that "Oh no, Cryx can't do anything now", it's that if we start seeing the Witch Doc across the board we have even less reason to take things fueled by living creatures. Unfortunately, what they can do after being fueled is built into their cost. For instance, a Pistol Wraith without the ability to boost accuracy and damage is not worth three points since his lockdown shot (assuming BOTH initials hit something) can be replicated by other toolbox solos such as the Siren or Gorman which are both a point less and do more overall. Obviously there are other nice bits like being Incorporeal until he shoots, but both of those others I mentioned are Stealthed and have a wide variety of other uses.

I didn't get a chance to read through Rok or the Sons of Bragg entries. Can anyone offer their opinions on them for me?

Agreed about Lightning Troll. He looks Pimp City.

The thing that annoys me is people hate Banes. They always complain that Cryx players just take Banes and The Sauce. So Wrath comes out and Cryx gets a `Jack with Accumulator Bane. Now Domination comes out and features a Solo that every Hordes faction can take that greatly hinders most stuff in Cryx, EXCEPT Banes who don't rely on Souls or Living Models. I really hope you like seeing Cryx players run lots of Banes, because apparently PP Really wants us to.

Dysartes wrote:
Just ask Circle players who have faced you how it feels to be priced with rules which only affect living models, then not being able to use them - Tharn Ravagers being a prime example, off the top of my head (and given I don't play Circle).

Also, ironically, Gators have the same problem against Cryx: Bloodthirst, Man-eater, Poison, Life Drinker, Grave Door, Snacking, Torpid, Cold Blood, the list of living model only triggered abilities goes on.

Giving us this one boost somehow doesn't seem like we're suddenly giving Cryx the finger or kicking them in the groin.

I'll take your word for it, Platuan - Thornfall for me, rather than Blindwater

Platuan4th wrote:Also, ironically, Gators have the same problem against Cryx: Bloodthirst, Man-eater, Poison, Life Drinker, Grave Door, Snacking, Torpid, Cold Blood, the list of living model only triggered abilities goes on.

Just for the record, I have always loved the ability name Snacking. Though to me (thematically) it shouldn't apply to Trample kills since you aren't hanging back and munching on the leftovers.

Kirbinator wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Also, ironically, Gators have the same problem against Cryx: Bloodthirst, Man-eater, Poison, Life Drinker, Grave Door, Snacking, Torpid, Cold Blood, the list of living model only triggered abilities goes on.

Just for the record, I have always loved the ability name Snacking. Though to me (thematically) it shouldn't apply to Trample kills since you aren't hanging back and munching on the leftovers.

When a Dire Troll tramples, infantry are just like popcorn - you can't stop with one morsel, you've got to shovel handfuls in...

Kirbinator wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Also, ironically, Gators have the same problem against Cryx: Bloodthirst, Man-eater, Poison, Life Drinker, Grave Door, Snacking, Torpid, Cold Blood, the list of living model only triggered abilities goes on.

Just for the record, I have always loved the ability name Snacking. Though to me (thematically) it shouldn't apply to Trample kills since you aren't hanging back and munching on the leftovers.

no no, what happens is the dire catches the bits that pop up when he squashes something, kinda like those crush cup yogurts

greenskin lynn wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Also, ironically, Gators have the same problem against Cryx: Bloodthirst, Man-eater, Poison, Life Drinker, Grave Door, Snacking, Torpid, Cold Blood, the list of living model only triggered abilities goes on.

Just for the record, I have always loved the ability name Snacking. Though to me (thematically) it shouldn't apply to Trample kills since you aren't hanging back and munching on the leftovers.

no no, what happens is the dire catches the bits that pop up when he squashes something, kinda like those crush cup yogurts

Whack-a-snack.

Witch Doctor? Not exactly Mk I Alexia is it?

I'm a Cryx player and I'm not so worried.

Aduro wrote:EXCEPT Banes who don't rely on Souls or Living Models. I really hope you like seeing Cryx players run lots of Banes, because apparently PP Really wants us to.

Except for IIIRC, the all the "lets make more Banes" Cryxtryx..

I'm not too worried, this is why I have Stalkers, and Harrowers with Ghost Shot, and the Ragman, and soon perhaps the Bloodhag...