I've heard some people calling the Tau "space communists" because of the Greater Good. I want to know other people's view on this since I kinda don't think the Tau are communist. Anyway, please don't treat this a political discussion. I just want to know how other people think about this, and why some people think the Tau are communist.

Its just usually used derogatarily by people who rant against the Tau. At a superficial glance, the concept of the 'Greater Good' seems like communism, and so they espouse the Tau as communists, in space, which shows their ignorance/insufficient knowledge/dont-give-a-damn on what the Greater Good and/or communism really is.

They aren't communist. They Utilitarian, Imperialist and Capitalist. the only vaguely communist thing if the Greater Good philosophy, which is still more utilitarian.

I know they're not communists, it's just that some people say they are. As far as I know, they're utilitarian, and very naive compared to other races, such as humans and eldar, or even orks.

Yeah, I kind of guessed you did, I fear I may have got caught in rant mode! Still, at least it'll tell those less in the know!

Thanks anyway. I just hope those who think the Tau aren't "grimdark" enough for 40k stop ranting against the Tau. They're kinda refreshing actually, a race who still thinks the galaxy is a bright place with no inkling of the carnage in the stars.

I always liked Tau because of them being naive. It kinda adds a sense of hope to the galaxy. It also helps they use other troops like Kroot and Vespids, which allows their army to have all sorts of looks haha

Good point about the Kroot and the Vespid. And in any case, mankind was probably like the Tau during the DAoT.

Earth Communism teach all Humans ( Men and Women ) that there is no boundaries between people ( borders etc... ), that we are all brothers and sisters. In communism all right of individual are respected and there are no rich and poor - all have the same amount of goods. In Communism people are not working for themselves, but communism teach us to "work for the Grater Good of all Mankind" ( like Soviets producing goods and giving a TON of them for free ).

Tau Grater Good is basically the same. Just expel Humanity and add Tau and alien races and you get almost identical Tau ideology. So they are "Space Communist", but only in ideological matter, in social matter - they are totally different.

If there is any communism in 40k, its in the Imperium

Actually, the Tau will accept any race as long as they accept the Greater Good. And no, they are not equal. The Ethereals are the ones who make all the important decisions.

Negator80 wrote:If there is any communism in 40k, its in the Imperium

Communism is Utopia, it is only that we Humans are "стоке", and we would each rather go over hundreds of people to get what we want. Communism is Utopa, but impossible on Eath today.


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Tadashi wrote:Actually, the Tau will accept any race as long as they accept the Greater Good. And no, they are not equal. The Ethereals are the ones who make all the important decisions.

Like I said, Communist only in ideology - socially they are more like Indian caste system.

No. I doubt all Tau get equal wages and there is trading to non-Tau worlds. Therefore they are not communist. Karl Marx has prooven it.

Obviously you didn't pay attention what I was saying.
Ideology is one thing but society is totally different.
We were communist state but we had PRIVATE sector, witch was very well organised and developed. So we were not communist at all?

Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Tau maybe don't have red star on their foreheads, but they have same believes as communists.

It's more to do with 'COMMUNISM!' still being a reactionary auto-insult amongst Americans.

Communism is generally seen as a valid, though flawed philosophy around the world, at least by anyone who has a passing acquaintance with it's ideals.

However, for a long in the US, Communism was simply EVIL! BAD and EVIL and WRONG!

Which is obviously quite stupid...

Please do not use this thread to discuss politics and ideologies of the real world. I implore you in the name of the Emperor, Powers of Chaos, the Hive Mind, the Eldar Gods, the Orks Gods, the Greater Good, the C'tan Star Gods, or whoever it is you fight for in 40k universe.

ArbitorIan wrote:It's more to do with 'COMMUNISM!' still being a reactionary auto-insult amongst Americans.

Communism is generally seen as a valid, though flawed philosophy around the world, at least by anyone who has a passing acquaintance with it's ideals.

However, for a long in the US, Communism was simply EVIL! BAD and EVIL and WRONG!

Which is obviously quite stupid...

Yes. Because it clearly wasn't Churchhill who coined the term "Iron Curtain"?

The reason Communism was "simply EVIL! BAD and EVIL and WRONG!" is because true Communism has never actually existed. "Anyone who has a passing acquaintance with its ideals" knows that.

Anyways. Tau aren't Communists. They're, at best, a blend of fascism and socialism with a touch of feudalism thrown in for good measure.

Fascist...true...after all, if they win Dark Crusade (non-canon) they sterilize the humans on Kronus are replace them with Tau, Kroot, and Vespid. Obviously they're socialist, but feudalistic, I don't really know.

Brother Coa wrote:Earth Communism teach all Humans ( Men and Women ) that there is no boundaries between people ( borders etc... ), that we are all brothers and sisters. In communism all right of individual are respected and there are no rich and poor - all have the same amount of goods. In Communism people are not working for themselves, but communism teach us to "work for the Grater Good of all Mankind" ( like Soviets producing goods and giving a TON of them for free ).

This is Socialism. Communism is different in that it has a ruling class (the Party) and a dictator.

Tau Grater Good is basically the same. Just expel Humanity and add Tau and alien races and you get almost identical Tau ideology. So they are "Space Communist", but only in ideological matter, in social matter - they are totally different.

I'd say they were either socialist or utilitarian in ideology.

The ideal of Communism includes a fundamental equality of all with no class boundaries. One of the pre-requisites for ideal Communism was to be a revolution in which all class boundaries were torn down.

The Tau Caste System is counter to this ideal.

So for the Tau to uphold the ideal of Communism they would need to abolish the Caste System.

So the existence of the Caste System indicates that the Tau don't uphold the ideal of Communism but instead have another similar philosophy which does not preclude a Caste System. I believe the philosophy of Utilitarianism has been put forward as a reasonable alternative.

Tadashi wrote:Fascist...true...after all, if they win Dark Crusade (non-canon) they sterilize the humans on Kronus are replace them with Tau, Kroot, and Vespid. Obviously they're socialist, but feudalistic, I don't really know.

Thats the ussual relic fluff raping. The Tau would never do that.

The Tau can and have committed massacres in the past.
However, as a general rule these incidents are rare and in the case of the massacres, the perpetrator is usually censured by the Ethereals.

Space Crusader wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Fascist...true...after all, if they win Dark Crusade (non-canon) they sterilize the humans on Kronus are replace them with Tau, Kroot, and Vespid. Obviously they're socialist, but feudalistic, I don't really know.

Thats the ussual relic fluff raping. The Tau would never do that.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh...

Fantasy Flight Games has done the same thing. It's not Relic "fluff alteration"(stop saying rape. Seriously. Do not compare your precious army's background being altered to a serious crime which impacts victims heavily), as it actually has Games Workshop approval.

Greater Good and Communism are really extremely different and I don't think communism really served as any basis for the Tau's development in GW, unless GW staff have a really rosy and inaccurate view of communism itself. There's an absence of struggle, no dialectic, no explanation of history, and no idea that eventually government itseklf woukld be obsolete. Moreover the concept of Castes based upon ones birth is very anti-Marxist and the lack of a party to dictate all affairs. The Ethereals are not a party, they're more akin to a monarchy.

And there's nothing to indicate in fluff that the Tau would do that sterilization thing. The codex doesn't even mention those notorious "concentration camps" posters who want the Tau to look bad mention. Even at their worst (i.e. conquering worlds through the threat of orbital annihilation) they're still saints compared to any other 40k faction.

They're not fascist either. The Tau aren't ruled over by an absolute dictator (I think it's fairly certain Aun'va has constraints on his power from the other Ethereals), they're not overly militaristic (they view war as a last resort in their objectives), and are not racist or overly nationalistic. A Fascist society wouldn't seek to spread an ideal of equality (preferrably peacefully at that) to all peoples of the universe.

Really there's never been an Earth counterpart to the Tau Empire/Greater Good, though there are philosophies (Imperialism, Utilitarianism, etc.) that match it.

Harriticus wrote:
And there's nothing to indicate in fluff that the Tau would do that sterilization thing. The codex doesn't even mention those notorious "concentration camps" posters who want the Tau to look bad mention. Even at their worst (i.e. conquering worlds through the threat of orbital annihilation) they're still saints compared to any other 40k faction.

And GW seemingly was not happy with the codex portrayal, which was mostly Andy Hoare's "personal vision" of the Tau Empire.

The rest of the design team favored a more "grimdark" method for the Tau, namely in this way:
Retain the "clean lines" and outward hopefulness--but have that simply be the 'tip of the iceberg'.
You can actually see this in the FFG supplements, which are a better way to view the "day to day" aspects of races like the Tau. One particular piece of interest is the "disappearance of those humans who speak out against the Greater Good, never to be seen again".

They're not fascist either. The Tau aren't ruled over by an absolute dictator (I think it's fairly certain Aun'va has constraints on his power from the other Ethereals), they're not overly militaristic (they view war as a last resort in their objectives), and are not racist or overly nationalistic. A Fascist society wouldn't seek to spread an ideal of equality (preferrably peacefully at that) to all peoples of the universe.

They really don't "view war as a last resort in their objectives". They view it as another tool to spread the Greater Good.
They are racist, and they are INCREDIBLY nationalistic.

imo, the best way to think of the Tau and interstellar relations is "White Man's Burden", with the Tau acting as the fill-in for the White Man.

As for the camps and whatnot, as others have noted FFG has included them in Deathwatch and GW keeps an eye on what FFG puts out. Further, a simple read between the lines of the Tau codex suggested that something had to be going on to keep certain elements of "converted" populations in line. FFG's materials have merely made it clear what was going on behind the scenes.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" and all that.

Kanluwen wrote:[
And GW seemingly was not happy with the codex portrayal, which was mostly Andy Hoare's "personal vision" of the Tau Empire.

Meh, I consider Codex's the first and foremost source of canon, the one that's above anything else (be it BL books, video games, expansions, etc.) so I take what's in them the most seriously. I'm fairly sure GW agrees with my mindset.

The rest of the design team favored a more "grimdark" method for the Tau, namely in this way:
Retain the "clean lines" and outward hopefulness--but have that simply be the 'tip of the iceberg'.
You can actually see this in the FFG supplements, which are a better way to view the "day to day" aspects of races like the Tau. One particular piece of interest is the "disappearance of those humans who speak out against the Greater Good, never to be seen again".

This kind of stuff wouldn't surprise me, but again it still doesn't make the Tau especially cruel and they're still far better then any other 40k faction.

They really don't "view war as a last resort in their objectives". They view it as another tool to spread the Greater Good.

War is only used when negotiations for peaceful assimilation fail though, this is in stark contrast to every other faction which regularly employs genocide and/or war as a first resort.

-Imperium: Will wipe out any xenos world without mercy or negotiations for assimilation or co-existence.
-Eldar: More complicated, but they've regularly purged worlds for their own agenda without any kind of mercy or negotiation
-Necrons: In the old fluff they'd kill everything, in the new fluff you get Overlords with honor (oi vey) that try to negotiate but I imagine many more will just destroy a non-Necron world with everything on it on a regular basis.

And Chaos, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Orks go without saying.

They are racist,

No they aren't. The Kroot, Vespids, Demirug, etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens. Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity. Not the signs of a racist society. Race has no place in the Greater Good.

and they are INCREDIBLY nationalistic.

Not this either. They follow a philosopohy that is trans-national and trans-cultural. Anyone is welcome in the Tau Empire as a full part of the Greater Good. If they were nationalistic they woukld seek to have the Tau race/nation dominate everything, not the Greater Good.

The Caste system is important to the Tau, but they don't seem too strict when it comes to social situations. For Example the mission into Tau space with the Last Chancers - the humans are initially baffled by the informal dining arrangements aboard the Tau ship transporting them. The Inquisitor posing as a local system ruler at first takes great offense that someone else would be allowed to serve himself food before the highest rank present. The Tau aboard - several castes IIRC as there's both ship crew and diplomats - are equally baffled that the humans even care.

Harriticus wrote:No they aren't. The Kroot,

Viewed as uncouth savages whose practices are merely tolerated.

Harriticus wrote:Vespids,

Mind controlled into submission.

Harriticus wrote: Demirug,

We have no information on these to say either way.

Harriticus wrote: etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens.

Yeah there is.

There's no way for them to become, for example, an ethereal caste (IE, ruling class). Because they aren't Tau ethereals. Therefor they are second-class citizens.

Harriticus wrote: Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity.

The kroot don't trust the Tau enough to give up their cultural identity. Or their technology, which is more advanced than the Tau's in many areas.

Harriticus wrote:Not this either.

If another nation adopted the greater good but refused to bow down to the Tau, the Tau would invade them in a flash.

I dont share the opinion of them being communists (pun intended)

Threads like this display a level of ignorance that seems to go hand-in-hand with political discussion. I like to describe it as being "militantly uninformed."

First off, I was wrong.

Second off, anyone who has given them a single label is also wrong.



Tau government would be considered Greater Good. They wouldn't have a human counterpart because they are aliens from a vastly different planet and history. So even though I like to think of them as Capitalist Imperialists, they are in fact, simply Greater Good. You can't say well, Socialism has "this" in common with Communism, so it must be Communism not Socialism.

They are an alien Empire that defines their political views as The Greater Good. While it may mirror forms of human government, their simply isn't a counterpart on Earth. We don't have a nation made up of different species where things like mind control that may or may not exist. So calling them Communist like Brother Coa did or calling them Imperialist like I did is wrong.


They are aliens, their government is Greater Good, by comparison to Earth and humans, it is several different beliefs rolled into 1 and implemented in several different ways.

I think that may be the closest thing to a "right" answer there is to Tau government. They do draw several distinct parallels to human governments, but fall short of being defined by any single category.

Meh, I consider Codex's the first and foremost source of canon, the one that's above anything else (be it BL books, video games, expansions, etc.) so I take what's in them the most seriously. I'm fairly sure GW agrees with my mindset.

They don't.

No they aren't. The Kroot, Vespids, Demirug, etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens. Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity. Not the signs of a racist society. Race has no place in the Greater Good.

The Vespids might be subject to mind-control helmets. We, the omniscient readers, have not been given enough information about these devices that permit communication between Tau and certain Vespid commanders to say for sure. However, all of the mentions of these devices are all very sinister-sounding.

Not this either. They follow a philosopohy that is trans-national and trans-cultural. Anyone is welcome in the Tau Empire as a full part of the Greater Good. If they were nationalistic they woukld seek to have the Tau race/nation dominate everything, not the Greater Good.

Who rules the Tau Empire? The Ethereals. Who are the Ethereals? The highest caste of Tau society. How do you become an Ethereal? You don't, you're born as one. Ergo...

Tadashi wrote:I know they're not communists, it's just that some people say they are.

And some people say Obama is a socialist, lol.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Tadashi wrote:I know they're not communists, it's just that some people say they are.

And some people say Obama is a socialist, lol.

Yeah, some people are rather silly like that. If Obama became prez of a socialist country their people would cry foul at how right wing he is.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:No they aren't. The Kroot,

Viewed as uncouth savages whose practices are merely tolerated.

The tau are evil because they despise the kroot so much they deny to subjugate them? Are you serious?

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Vespids,

Mind controlled into submission.

The Codex disagrees with you and describes the Vespid as soldiers valued as equals. But maybe you are not interested in facts.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote: Demirug,

We have no information on these to say either way.

Wrong. We know that Demiurg are not part of the Tau Empire but free and valued allies. See BFG rules.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote: etc. are assimilated and there's no indication they're second class citizens.

Yeah there is.
There's no way for them to become, for example, an ethereal caste (IE, ruling class). Because they aren't Tau ethereals. Therefor they are second-class citizens.

The caste system is a special social tool to avoid Mont'au. The special role of the ethereals is par of this system. This system makes no sense for other races and there is absolutely no intention to force this structure on other races. And even if we assume Tau ethereals having absolute rulership, in reality this rulership is not executed in an absolutistic way.

It is true that no other race can become a member of the Tau race, neither can a cat become a dog. Does this make cats second-class dogs? Obviously not.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote: Hell they even let the Kroot retain their cultural identity.

The kroot don't trust the Tau enough to give up their cultural identity. Or their technology, which is more advanced than the Tau's in many areas.

The Kroot are independent and also have biological necessities requiring them to act outside the tau Empire. Kroot technology is more advanced only in one area, and that only because they ate a big mec with knowledge in warp technology (which is genetically encoded with orks). Kroot respect tau and the bond both races have. One Kroot even became general in the Tau Empire army. But Kroot are also notorical pragmatics, following their own guidelines. And tau have no interest in subjugating Kroot, so let them do their thing.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Not this either.

If another nation adopted the greater good but refused to bow down to the Tau, the Tau would invade them in a flash.

Funny that we have several examples where this hasn't been the case and not one case supporting this. Maybe it is just wrong and the designers didn't lie about their intentions when they said::

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

BTW have a look at my sig concerning the Tau=commies question.

I don't think Tau practice utilitarianism. Simply because they both call for wars of conquest and advocate peaceful resolution. Conflicts arising out of annexation really don't follow a guideline of peace, when the owners of said planets are diplomatic neutrals/enemies/allies.

I certainly could be wrong though. I can honestly admit I don't have the years of education it would take to fully understand all these different governments/beliefs. I think that GW did mix it up a bit on purpose though, to make the Tau a more progressive alien race with human idealism practiced as actual government.

Edit: On that note, this thread saddens me. Such a great a great fan base, I really want to see Tau get some TLC here pretty soon. My favorite race by far. They are the good guy villains in the galaxy who keep marching onward despite being viciously punked by all other races.

Except the Imperium of Girls, whom the Tau constantly own hard.

To me, they make the most sense as a monarchy. Seeing as they have a caste who rules by birth.

Brother Coa wrote:Obviously you didn't pay attention what I was saying.
Ideology is one thing but society is totally different.
We were communist state but we had PRIVATE sector, witch was very well organised and developed. So we were not communist at all?

Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Tau maybe don't have red star on their foreheads, but they have same believes as communists.

That is socialist not Commmunist.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I certainly could be wrong though. I can honestly admit I don't have the years of education it would take to fully understand all these different governments/beliefs. I think that GW did mix it up a bit on purpose though, to make the Tau a more progressive alien race with human idealism practiced as actual government.

You are like Tau: a green apple in a galaxy of big red apples.

Edit: On that note, this thread saddens me. Such a great a great fan base, I really want to see Tau get some TLC here pretty soon. My favorite race by far. They are the good guy villains in the galaxy who keep marching onward despite being viciously punked by all other races.

I thought that by your comments the Necrons are your new butt-buddies since they cleansed a Tau planet without any resistance. Tau are not marching onward, they halted in almost everything now and sitting still. And they are far from the good guys, they are in fact as bad as Chaos or Dark Eldar. Telling people lies about good life and unifying galaxy to hide their quest for conquering it, they remind me on Spanish conquerors in America who almost exterminate all natives living there or submit them to the Christianity by using lies and promises of peace.

Except the Imperium of Girls, whom the Tau constantly own hard.

Kronus, Kaurava, Lagan, Zeist, Nimbosa crusade, Gravalax.... and taking undefended world with 10.000 inhabitants with force of thousands FW is not "owning hard" by me. Tau attack only once an large Imperial world ( Nimbosa ) and were almost owned by one Guard Regiement, they also start killing a LOT of civilians to make place for their own people ( good guys yeah right ). And for the finale ( the thing about owning ):

Eumerin wrote:imo, the best way to think of the Tau and interstellar relations is "White Man's Burden", with the Tau acting as the fill-in for the White Man.

As for the camps and whatnot, as others have noted FFG has included them in Deathwatch and GW keeps an eye on what FFG puts out. Further, a simple read between the lines of the Tau codex suggested that something had to be going on to keep certain elements of "converted" populations in line. FFG's materials have merely made it clear what was going on behind the scenes.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" and all that.

I agree. The Tau Codex states that the Tau were apalled by the barbaric customs of the Kroot, but believe that the Kroot would grow more civilized by contact with the Tau. Basically this implies that the Tau consider their civilization as superior to others. In a way they're just as ruthless as other races; they're just not as obvious.

Kroothawk wrote:The caste system is a special social tool to

... oppress the masses to the benefit of the Ethereals, because it is a very strict and effective system which keeps ruling power out of the hands of non-Tau and in the hands of the Ethereals. Really, Tau are more oppressive in this way than the Imperium is, at least the Imperium accepts capable humans from all walks of life in to its ruling class-- depending on their deeds in life and their talents and skills. The Tau only accept ethereals... capable or otherwise, non-ethereals cannot enter the ruling ethereal class.

Brother Coa wrote:Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Lol, really? I don't think anyone believes this.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Lol, really? I don't think anyone believes this.

Yeah, that's a load of nonsense. I can tell you for damned sure that Christianity has a huge impact on our society. I deal with it on a day to day basis.

Melissia wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Grater Good is their ideology, it has nothing to do with their society or cultural status. Same as the Christianity has no impact on our society today ( otherwise there would be no Internet porn ).

Lol, really? I don't think anyone believes this.

Yeah, that's a load of nonsense. I can tell you for damned sure that Christianity has a huge impact on our society. I deal with it on a day to day basis.

I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...
Clearly we are not doing all that and we are in fact doing a LOT of opposite that church is telling us. ( like Gay vending, cloning, openly defying God, killing others who don't share same faith, incest... )
But, as always, you have fanatic zealots who puts blind faith above logic and kill everyone that isn't believing like him.

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
[...]
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...

Is that honestly your view of the middle ages?

You need to go to some remedial history classes, dude.

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...
Clearly we are not doing all that and we are in fact doing a LOT of opposite that church is telling us. ( like Gay vending, cloning, openly defying God, killing others who don't share same faith, incest... )
But, as always, you have fanatic zealots who puts blind faith above logic and kill everyone that isn't believing like him.

Yes, because everyone was happy back when the Chuch had major control over people's lives. I mean, who doesn't like the suppression of knowledge, persecution of scientists, killing others who don't share the same faith (please don't tell me you don't know that the Church advocated this), corruption in its upper echelons, family members getting sent to participate in 'Holy Wars', murdering women as witches...

Middle Ages and Church =/= Christianity and 10 commandments.

And what I am trying to say ( I see it's pointless to give examples ) is that in advanced societies ( like ours now ) Religion doesn't have much power, furthermore it's power is falling down since more and more people are turning to science and technology who works and offers solution then some mystical fary tale about some "God" watching over us and punish us for our every crime.

It's just like Tau and Grater Good, they implement their idea toward other races. But use advanced technology to get things done rather by waiting for people to actually accept their believes.


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Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...
Clearly we are not doing all that and we are in fact doing a LOT of opposite that church is telling us. ( like Gay vending, cloning, openly defying God, killing others who don't share same faith, incest... )
But, as always, you have fanatic zealots who puts blind faith above logic and kill everyone that isn't believing like him.

Yes, because everyone was happy back when the Chuch had major control over people's lives. I mean, who doesn't like the suppression of knowledge, persecution of scientists, killing others who don't share the same faith (please don't tell me you don't know that the Church advocated this), corruption in its upper echelons, family members getting sent to participate in 'Holy Wars', murdering women as witches...

Same as Communism: great idea but poorly implemented in reality ( Mr. Stalin and Mao for example ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I meant that it doesn't have that much of an impact it had like in the middle ages.
[...]
If we would be strictly Christian society there would be no wars, no one would be lying, everyone would respect their parents, we would all go to church every day 3 times...

Is that honestly your view of the middle ages?

You need to go to some remedial history classes, dude.

How I see middle ages?
Church ruling everyone, sending armies to Crusades to "liberate" the wealth of the holly lands.
Wars in every turn, new great empire raise ( Britain, Spain, Turkey ) while other fall down ( Eastern Roman Empire ).

Like I said: idea and theory is one thing - reality is other. Idea may be perfect like communism, but it's pointless as ong as people use that idea to get to power.

The Ten Commandments aren't faceted enough to deal with a society. They say you can't kill, but what about self-defence or to save another? The idea of not wanting something another has is absurd, it's part of humanity to be greedy.

And yet, by your definition, the middle ages are ruled by Christianity. Your inherent self-contradiction is showing, Coa.

I thought the Caste system was a callback to India?

Space communism is just a simple trigger phrase to ill-informed teenage American boys.

To sum up;

kenshin620 wrote:I thought the Caste system was a callback to India?

Probably not, since IIRC there's at least a degree of stratification (which may have evolved in modern times, I'm not all that well versed in it now.) Except for the Ethereals, the four main castes are all more or less equal.

Tau society can and does borrow elements from various political systems, but it doesn't really mirror any particular one in any great deal. There just seems to be some desire to pigeonhole it in a nice neat category (political version of tropes?) It's kinda like how the Imperium will sometimes get called "Space feudalism." - although that also depends on your definition of feudalism, since I've seen several of them floating about.

Melissia wrote:And yet, by your definition, the middle ages are ruled by Christianity. Your inherent self-contradiction is showing, Coa.

I didn't include the whole world in my point, just Western Europe.
A whole world is totally different story.

But please - enlighten me if you wish.

But please - enlighten me if you wish

This isn't the time or place for an in-depth discussion of religion, political theology, or anything of the sort of RL belief patterns, but what you've posted so far shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the Christian faith, and its history, and also lack an understanding of how it, "it" being Judaeo-Christian faith, continues to shape the world and its societies today.

In short... Judaeo-Christianity doesn't forbid war. In fact, it's very much supportive of it, assuming God told you to go over there and kill every man, woman and child.

Brother Coa wrote:

So Tau:



Where are your Etherials now?[/spoiler]

Everything you wrote failed when you used an anime styled picture of the Emperor to insult Tau.

Unless the original portrayal of the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind, was a 19 year old kid named Patsuki

Fire Warrior was a terrible game.

That's my contribution to this philosophical discussion.

Campbell1004 wrote:Fire Warrior was a terrible game.

That's my contribution to this philosophical discussion.

Bad game is bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdRbiJ29VkM

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:The caste system is a special social tool to

... oppress the masses to the benefit of the Ethereals

I know you are from Texas, but in most other countries bringing peace to a people occupied in a killing frenzy is not considered evil oppression. Are you still grumpy that the ethereals didn't use weapons?

Kroothawk wrote:I know you are from Texas, but in most other countries bringing peace to a people occupied in a killing frenzy is not considered evil oppression.

Yes, I'm sure you believe apartheid in South Africa where a ruling class/race of people denied all other classes/races of people the right to rule was not oppressive.

Psienesis wrote:
This isn't the time or place for an in-depth discussion of religion, political theology, or anything of the sort of RL belief patterns, but what you've posted so far shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the Christian faith, and its history, and also lack an understanding of how it, "it" being Judaeo-Christian faith, continues to shape the world and its societies today.

In short... Judaeo-Christianity doesn't forbid war. In fact, it's very much supportive of it, assuming God told you to go over there and kill every man, woman and child.

You got EVERYTHING wrong... ( God teach us to love each other, bot to go and kill in his name. )

Let's get back to the OP...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Everything you wrote failed when you used an anime styled picture of the Emperor to insult Tau.

Unless the original portrayal of the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind, was a 19 year old kid named Patsuki

Oh god that snail is so cool.

I see your snail, and I raise you a thread closing (hopefully) meme as well....


See more on Know Your Meme

( God teach us to love each other, bot to go and kill in his name. )

Haven't read the Old Testament, have you?

Tau are more like vulcans than communists.

Majsharan wrote:Tau are more like vulcans than communists.

Not really. While Ethereals may be logical, most Tau get emotional, especially when said ethereal gets killed, or things get out of hand.

The normal Tau has a good life. Comparing it to South Africa is slowed. The tau are a united people working together. Mellissa why dont we talk about when you said that sisters of battle were faster then space marines?

The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

As far as integration of other races, "You can be who you are, as long as who you are is what we deem acceptable."

Otherwise you're Frzrap! almost as fast as a Commissar can say Blam!

The Romans thought they were bringing the light of civilization to the barbarians too, lol. The Tau are like less manly versions of the Romans.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Finally someone that raised the level of this thread.

I agree with you when you say that the philosophy of the Greater Good presents some communist elements. Indeed, AFAIK, the Tau central (or federal) government controls large swaths of the tau society, especially the distribution of the workforce (the caste system) or its economy.
While the Tau don't seem to make use of a complete planned economy like the USSR, and favor interstellar trade with capitalist systems (i.e: the Rogue Traders and the IoM), they are anything but capitalists (as some ignorant and uneducated person claimed earlier in this thread).
To create capitalism, an economic and social system needs two things the tau don't have: a liberal market (and the tau economy is anything but liberal) and the pursuit of material wealth (and the tau are anything but materialistic).

However, I don't think they keep any socialist tenets in their political system, at least not on a marxist point of view, since their political system was not built in response to any economic and social inequalities nor is it meant to raise the social status of its people.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

I perfectly agree with you there, but I would add that there are a few important elements of communism in their social structure. So I'd say their beliefs can be compared to the "utopian socialists" from the 19th century (especially Cabet's Icarian Communism).


But I do not expect even a tiny fraction of the average W40K gamer to have a darn clue of what I'm talking about... So, yeah, let's get back to Coa's anime-version of the Emperor.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

As far as integration of other races, "You can be who you are, as long as who you are is what we deem acceptable."

Otherwise you're Frzrap! almost as fast as a Commissar can say Blam!

The Romans thought they were bringing the light of civilization to the barbarians too, lol. The Tau are like less manly versions of the Romans.

Finally someone else that sees the parallels between the Tau Empire and the Roman Republic.

Just like the Romans the Tau are a tolerate and adaptable empire, but still capable of acts of what some on the receiving end would deem as tyranny. Freedom is a illusion in our world and the made up 40k universe, there are always governents in power or some kind of ruling athourity, and as far as the fluff of 40k I will take a more benign empire over a religion crazed xeno-phobic, witch seeing totalitarian regime, sorry I have been along for the whole ride of 40k from the begining, and just as I was growing weary of the grimdarkness, they introduced the Tau, and they kinda re-kindled my enthusiasim for this setting.

So stop trying to label them communist or socialist or Utilitarianism or any other ist or ism, just leave it that they are Tau and a alien empire , and wait to see what the next codex brings, hopefully it will not be to crazy of a divergance from standing fluff and keep the tech savy and expansionistic Tau flavor that has become the main selling point for me.

If anything I would like to see is the IoM coming to its senses and actually making some alliances and defence pacts, afterall there are much worse enemies in the 40k universe than the Tau, and most of them can't even be reasoned with.

Laodamia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Finally someone that raised the level of this thread.

I agree with you when you say that the philosophy of the Greater Good presents some communist elements. Indeed, AFAIK, the Tau central (or federal) government controls large swaths of the tau society, especially the distribution of the workforce (the caste system) or its economy.
While the Tau don't seem to make use of a complete planned economy like the USSR, and favor interstellar trade with capitalist systems (i.e: the Rogue Traders and the IoM), they are anything but capitalists (as some ignorant and uneducated person claimed earlier in this thread).
To create capitalism, an economic and social system needs two things the tau don't have: a liberal market (and the tau economy is anything but liberal) and the pursuit of material wealth (and the tau are anything but materialistic).

However, I don't think they keep any socialist tenets in their political system, at least not on a marxist point of view, since their political system was not built in response to any economic and social inequalities nor is it meant to raise the social status of its people.

The Tau Empire isn't a free market with a desire for individual wealth?

You call someone ignorant, then display a huge amount of ignorance for Tau fluff almost instantly.

The Tau Empire is a group of different species and governments ruled over by the Tau race. Kroot are mercenaries for hire to the highest bidder, the humans under Tau rule have bustling business with the Tau Empire (Cain Novel) not to mention that the Squats retconned to the Demiurg, are largely believed to be in league with the Tau, another race that is booming with trade and a desire for individual wealth (space dwarves)

I agree with BeefCakeSoup, little to no info has been detailed about the Tau economy other than it is "bustling with trade ", I would guess that compitition between water caste merchants and vying for favorable trade rights and agreements with allied races would be one of the ways they fufill the greater goods aims.

Of course all of this would be done in a different spirit of free market and idividual wealth, and likely Tau taxes would be quite high, since that goes to support the whole greater good thing, all in all I would love to have some detailing of this side of the Tau empire, could be quite a interesting excursion.

Again we do not have sufficent facts to make a informed opinion, just hearsay.

I'd actually agree the tau aren't capitalist, at least not in the sense of the US. Their economic and market factors would be driven far more by (like all things) their greater good ideology - EG what is needed and what is important for the Tau Empire to succeed and thrive, rather than by what individiual members may want. There's certainly room for thriving trade and economics (especially since that is quite an effective avenue by which the Water Caste can infiltrate and manipulate invidiaul worlds - the Tau are quite good at suborning planets via trade and technology.) and for personal valuables, but a US-style economy (military and civilian) would not exist or be permitted under the Tau (not that this is automatically bad, mind..)

Trade, bartering and monetary systems existed before capitalism, and still do, independently.

The fact that the Tau trade doesn't make them capitalist.

Oh, the Tau culture isn't nearly noble enough to even come close to communism.

Here's a definition:
Communism is a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of a classless, moneyless, revolutionary and stateless socialist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.

Tau are rigorously classed. Their social stratification is impermeable and more equal to slavery.

There is no common ownership. The Ethereals own everything, including freedom, something they do not grant to the Tau.

Here's another definition:
Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. To achieve this, fascists purge forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration. Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, discipline and family policy (such as eugenics). That state is led by a supreme leader who exercises a dictatorship over the fascist movement, the government and other state institutions. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition.

Yep, that one is closer to the Tau Empire.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Trade, bartering and monetary systems existed before capitalism, and still do, independently.

The fact that the Tau trade doesn't make them capitalist.

But for all you know they are. You don't have a model of their government and civilian structure detailed enough to make an informative answer.

Instead of calling a fork a quad-pronged, steel crafted, stabbing apparatus, it's easier to just call it a fork. While those descriptions may fit in some capacity, they don't quite feel right being applied. The Greater Good isn't even a combination of beliefs people have posted so far, it's both much more and also much less, it's just The Greater Good.

DarknessEternal wrote:Oh, the Tau culture isn't nearly noble enough to even come close to communism.

Here's a definition:
Communism is a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of a classless, moneyless, revolutionary and stateless socialist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.

Tau are rigorously classed. Their social stratification is impermeable and more equal to slavery.

There is no common ownership. The Ethereals own everything, including freedom, something they do not grant to the Tau.

Here's another definition:
Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. To achieve this, fascists purge forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration. Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, discipline and family policy (such as eugenics). That state is led by a supreme leader who exercises a dictatorship over the fascist movement, the government and other state institutions. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition.

Yep, that one is closer to the Tau Empire.

well you are right in one area..Tau are not Communist.

But the rest you are incorrect in applying to the Tau.

Castes have ranks within them, and mobility within these castes is based on individual ability and inititive, if they are slaves then all would be the same and no advancement and resposibilities.
Being born within a caste may be somewhat alien to humans but Tau are not humans, its the way their race has been for over a thousand years and works for them.

No common ownership, state sources of this assertion, since I cannot find any saying the sate owns everything, or that the Tau own everything, or even the Ethereals own anything, seems you are leaping to conclusions to support your distaste for the Tau idea.
The Ethereals are noted as being advisors, usually fully heeded advisiors none the less, but still advisors, with no one ethereal being fully in charge, some may be senior or more respected within their caste but they do not have a single ruler.
The closest would be Aun'va but even he is not the sole ruler of the entire Tau empire, just the most revered and respected of his caste.

so they are not fascists either.

They are just Tau, fighting for their greater good, if you don't like them, dont play them, or read about them , or even comment on them, I dont like GK so I dont comment on them here at dakka.

Its fun to discuss ideas and opinions but just to basically rehash the same point over and over is very tiresome.

It is especially stated in the tau dex and several pieces of fluff concerning them that the tau culture is not turned towards the pursuit of personal wealth. It is not a political aspect of this race (the ethereals are not forbidding personal property AFAIK), but rather a cultural thing. The philosophy of the greater good is rather anathema to the pursuit of material wealth, as such the tau are definitely not materialistic, which means that describing them as capitalists is rather wrong.

On the other hand, I think we all agree that the tau are extremely imperialists, and Lenin said that "Imperialism is the latest iteration of capitalism", but again, I believe the tau follow their expansionist policy in response to their "Greater Good" philosophy, and not with the objective of getting their hands on new markets.

To further my point saying that the tau are definitely not capitalists, they are often compared to other races in their empire (like the demiurg or the kroot) by saying that these races show some traits absent with taus. For instance, in the Rogue Trader books, the kroots are described as being fairly materialistic and that this particular trait is being used by the tau to their own advantage by giving the kroots weapons and other valuable goods in exchange of their services. The demiurg themselves are described as being the ultimate space merchants or gold-hoarders (they're based on dwarfs after all), on the contrary to the tau.
See? I'm far from being a "tau fluff ignorant".

And I'm not a tau hater either. I kinda like the tau actually. I don't see why debating on some details of the tau society can be seen as tau hatin' by tau players.

It is true that tau communities are described as "bustling with trade and commerce", but as said by Veteran Sergeant, you can have trade and a prosperous economy without capitalism and under a planified economy with heavy state control (as I believe the case is with the tau).

Laodamia wrote:It is especially stated in the tau dex and several pieces of fluff concerning them that the tau culture is not turned towards the pursuit of personal wealth. It is not a political aspect of this race (the ethereals are not forbidding personal property AFAIK), but rather a cultural thing. The philosophy of the greater good is rather anathema to the pursuit of material wealth, as such the tau are definitely not materialistic, which means that describing them as capitalists is rather wrong.

Labeling them any system on Earth is wrong. I agree.

On the other hand, I think we all agree that the tau are extremely imperialists, and Lenin said that "Imperialism is the latest iteration of capitalism", but again, I believe the tau follow their expansionist policy in response to their "Greater Good" philosophy, and not with the objective of getting their hands on new markets.

This is an assumption and given that an entire caste is made up of traders, a large one.

To further my point saying that the tau are definitely not capitalists,[u] they are often compared to other races in their empire (like the demiurg or the kroot) by saying that these races show some traits absent with taus. For instance, in the Rogue Trader books, the kroots are described as being fairly materialistic and that this particular trait is being used by the tau to their own advantage by giving the kroots weapons and other valuable goods in exchange of their services. The demiurg themselves are described as being the ultimate space merchants or gold-hoarders (they're based on dwarfs after all), on the contrary to the tau.
See? I'm far from being a "tau fluff ignorant".

This is again a pretty large assumption.

And I'm not a tau hater either. I kinda like the tau actually. I don't see why debating on some details of the tau society can be seen as tau hatin' by tau players.

It is true that tau communities are described as "bustling with trade and commerce", but as said by Veteran Sergeant, you can have trade and a prosperous economy without capitalism and under a planified economy with heavy state control (as I believe the case is with the tau).

The Tau very well could practice any number of governments or economic systems and we couldn't really label them that well. You are saying they aren't capitalists, but have you ever seen capitalism applied on a galactic scale between unified races? The Tau are a ideologically unified empire and as such, they could practice Fascism and we would likely have a hard time recognizing it.

This is part of the reason they have a hard time fitting in, they see things in a different light from everyone. I'd wager they practice an alien form of capitalism, simply based on Cosmopolitan worlds frequently trading with the Imperium of Man and other races. But again, it could be any number or different systems mixed in, giving them a label a definite label or saying they totally lack a system is incorrect imho.

To sum it up: I think the Tau are alright.

Their views are commonly referred to as space communism in passing, usually in ranting, by non-tau players. But who wants to take the time to say they are a caste/feudalism-based society with open-market minded economic views, mixed in with some idealistic, Utopian precepts in regards to the nature of their existence, and geared towards a passive-aggressive crusade of expansion for the furthering of their goals and views? thats a mouthful.

In a Universe riven with bloodshed, and war, and grim darkness, and grim, and war, and darkness, they are alright. The Imperium conducts exterminatus when someone on a planet so much as says "heresy", or "chaos" in conversation. 1000 psykers are sacrificed daily to the astronomicon. Purpose-bred mutants are required to pilot starships. IG sends wave after wave of IG as meatshields for tanks... why not just build better tanks? Space marines can live for 1000 years, and they spend that entire time spilling blood, or flying to a new place to spill more blood. and those are the good guys. But the fact of the matter is, for humans, that is what it takes to guarantee (to whatever extent we can) that we continue to survive. Humanity was required long ago to shed themselves of all thoughts of hope, and naivety. The imperium feels that it cannot afford such thoughts, lest naivety beget destruction.

The Tau are awesome because, if only because they haven't been around long enough to know better, they refuse to embrace that reality. They can't and won't allow themselves to accept that thats just the way the 41st millenium is. They want it to be different, and rather than just dealing with it and resigning themselves to the ways of the Imperium, they still fight to prove that it doesnt have to be like that. In that way, their mission parallels communism. I don't think communism could EVER work, because we as humans are too imperfect to allow for a perfect society of equality, we just are. But the Tau, like the idea of communism, have the balls to say "you're right, it would be awesome. and so we are going to try. if we fail, we died trying for something that you were to pansy to shoot for".

As the Tyranid, Necron, Chaos, DE, and Ork threats stand poised to indiscriminately scour all non-self entities from the universe, I think the Tau and the Imperium could learn a lot from eachother. If you could fight someone who is upset with you for something you did, or you could fight someone who wants to kill you both for breathing.... am I missing something here? Imperium-Tau alliance FTW!!!.... and the Eldar if they ever get their gak together again. my 2 cents.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Labeling them any system on Earth is wrong. I agree. [/b]

Wrong? How else could we label them then if not with economic and social patterns we are familiar with??? Are you suggesting that we should go ahead and invent a brand new shiny economic theory to describe the structure of the tau's economy?
The Tau are a fictional race in a fictional universe written by sci-fi authors that based their script on some of the social systems they saw around them here on the real world.
The entire purpose of this thread is to debate which economic and social system the tau are closer to. Saying that "we can't label them with any system we know of" would end up killing the debate and closing this thread right now.

This is an assumption and given that an entire caste is made up of traders, a large one.

The water caste are diplomats first, traders, bureaucrats and administrators second, as stated in the deathwatch rpg and numerous other pieces of fluff on the tau (including the codex). In addition, for the tau, trade with other political entities is always made with the objective of achieving some political gain. For instance, the tau traded with the planet Taros to bring it in their sphere of influence and to later annex it in their empire. In most cases, trade between tau and humans also concerns pieces of technology, because the tau are not concerned with the financial wealth they could acquire with this trade.

These last points are not assumptions, their facts laid down in the tau fluff.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Trade, bartering and monetary systems existed before capitalism, and still do, independently.

The fact that the Tau trade doesn't make them capitalist.

But for all you know they are. You don't have a model of their government and civilian structure detailed enough to make an informative answer.

So I don't have enough info to make an informative answer, but you do?

It's just a game. I wasn't criticizing the Tau by saying they aren't capitalist. However, me saying you are wrong about them automatically being capitalist based on flimsy and incomplete evidence, doesn't make me wrong because I can't define what they actually are. I don't care much at all what they are. But the idea of them being capitalist when they function in a fascist oligarchy concerned entirely with the "greater good" instead of the kind of self serving societies that capitalism breeds (see: America and the rest of the West) doesn't seem like an automatic to me.

I know why people hate Tau: what is Grimdark about them?

Nothing.

They live peacefully, in good relations with their allies, trying to bring peace and understanding to the galaxy, offering better life to other races who join them, protecting them against foreign aggressor...

Seriously? If Tau ain't Grimdark at all, what are they doing in Warhammer 40k then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Tau aren't really communist. There are tenets of socialism and communism in their beliefs, yes. And they are Utilitarian, but it is important to note that Utilitarianism isn't a government, it's a philosophy.

Probably the best way to describe the Tau is a Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy with a rigid caste system that prevents vertical or lateral social mobility.

And this describes Tau society pretty good. They are still communist in ideology.

I can tell you exactly what is grimdark about them...

They have to exist in the Grimdark dominated universe and try and do things a bit differently, going against the odds and bucking the established status , while the hordes of grimy darky fans snipe at them for notbeing like everyone else, is the grimest and darkest existence the little blue guys could have.

I am sure they will get more in line with all this gothic neo-fascist empire grimdarknessing fluff, but hopefully not, viva la differance.

They dont live peacefully hence 1/5th of thier population are military, they work hard for good relations due to the fact of how dangerous the universe is, they bring peace but not nessicarily the kinda peace that appeals to everyone (Orks,Chaos etc. ), and yes they offer a better life to the less powerful they meet, strength in numbers (remember grimdark is always knocking on their doors), so in a sense they are what actually makes the darkness darker since there is some light but its a feeble flickering one in the vast ocean of all the nastiness.

Evil needs contrasts or it is just all differing forms of evil..boring , Tau do some pretty drastic things and I am sure the GD universe will force them to do more, but I am rooting for the Tau.

And no they are not Communist, They are Tau, get it right.

Tau aren't Grimdark enough, there is no genocide, no millions of killed, no treason, no threat of extinction, no brutalizing the population ( except Nimbosa, but that was only one commander who was killed by Tau later ). This is the Grim darkness of the far future and we can't have faction that is not Grimdark at all.

And Tau "Grater Good" = Earth Communism ideology.
So Tau = Space Communist.

Brother Coa

You have your veiws

I have mine.

end transmission.

(my troll detector went off)

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Brother Coa

You have your veiws

I have mine.

end transmission.

(my troll detector went off)

True enough...

Transmission ended.

(my fanboy detectors went off scale, again )

The fact that you agreed that a " Fascist Utilitarian Ethnocratic Oligarchy" means the Tau have a communist ideology kind of negates anything you have to say regarding things being communistic. What with you equating fascism to communism.

The Greater Good is in no way a communist ideology. At all. It is a utilitarian one built on the concept of unification and peaceful coalition. Communism is built on a dictatorship where everyone is equal, has no chance to advance or accrue material wealth and none of those things exist in the Tau Empire. Though they prefer not to, Tau can accrue personal wealth. The Ethereals are more advisors than anything, even if they are heeded more often than not. And within a caste, Tau can go up a rank so long as they're competent. Saying that because a Tau is in a Fire caste means he can't become an Ethereal = slavery, is like saying because I can't become US president = dictatorship.

Dytalus wrote:
The Greater Good is in no way a communist ideology. At all. It is a utilitarian one built on the concept of unification and peaceful coalition. Communism is built on a dictatorship where everyone is equal, has no chance to advance or accrue material wealth and none of those things exist in the Tau Empire. Though they prefer not to, Tau can accrue personal wealth. The Ethereals are more advisors than anything, even if they are heeded more often than not. And within a caste, Tau can go up a rank so long as they're competent. Saying that because a Tau is in a Fire caste means he can't become an Ethereal = slavery, is like saying because I can't become US president = dictatorship.

Tau are utilitarian society with communist ideology.

/thread

No genocide or grimdark methods, huh? Doubt it. They make use of behind-the-curtain methods to control human populations. The Ethereals use a form of subliminal messaging to control of other Tau.

Brother Coa wrote:

Dytalus wrote:
The Greater Good is in no way a communist ideology. At all. It is a utilitarian one built on the concept of unification and peaceful coalition. Communism is built on a dictatorship where everyone is equal, has no chance to advance or accrue material wealth and none of those things exist in the Tau Empire. Though they prefer not to, Tau can accrue personal wealth. The Ethereals are more advisors than anything, even if they are heeded more often than not. And within a caste, Tau can go up a rank so long as they're competent. Saying that because a Tau is in a Fire caste means he can't become an Ethereal = slavery, is like saying because I can't become US president = dictatorship.

Tau are utilitarian society with communist ideology.

/thread

You know that putting /thread doesn't actually end it right?

And there isn't really much communism involved. Greater Good =/= Communism.

As many people have so pointed out, the Greater Good is not communism. It's utilitarianism. The Tau have some socialist tendencies, but they're not communist. The Tau are willing to conduct trade with peaceful races, which communists would never do. As I've said before, please don't use this thread to discuss our world's politics and ideologies.

Tadashi wrote:As many people have so pointed out, the Greater Good is not communism. It's utilitarianism. The Tau have some socialist tendencies, but they're not communist.

The Tau are willing to conduct trade with peaceful races, which communists would never do.

The problem with the whole idea of trade in the 40K universe is that they say they do it, without ever explaining how. Which seems a bit fishy considering how xenophobic pretty much all the factions are (which, if you're going to have only war in the grim darkness of the far future, helps things along). I buy that the Tau trade within the systems of their empire (probably for socially beneficial items and technology and not capitalistic intentions), and perhaps with benevolent races they are attempting to subvert.

But, another thing to remember is that the Tau are still and empire, and a rather actively expanding one. Their "greater good" is quite aggressive. The Tau aren't good guys, and their concept of "good" is somewhat twisted. They just look better in the light compared to the more totalitarian and repressive tactics of the Imperium. Of course, it's also important to remember that humans lived in relative happiness and freedom under the living Emperor. But you saw how well that turned out for them. Eventually, GW will need a new race to sell, and like the humans and Eldar before them, some Tau will fall to Chaos, and we'll have Chaos Tau battlesuits with spikes on them.

Laodamia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Labeling them any system on Earth is wrong. I agree. [/b]

Wrong? How else could we label them then if not with economic and social patterns we are familiar with??? Are you suggesting that we should go ahead and invent a brand new shiny economic theory to describe the structure of the tau's economy?
The Tau are a fictional race in a fictional universe written by sci-fi authors that based their script on some of the social systems they saw around them here on the real world.
The entire purpose of this thread is to debate which economic and social system the tau are closer to. Saying that "we can't label them with any system we know of" would end up killing the debate and closing this thread right now.

Labeling them any system on Earth is wrong, to clarify...

What form of human economic structure are they like? None. No human political or economical structure has ever come close to being practiced or yielding the results the Tau have had. Not a single theory created by a man or nation of men has ever even slightly bore resemblance to what the Tau are in 40K. Unless there is a nation or man you know of, who implements elements of physical mind control, who is good with diplomatic inter-galactic sovereignty and how it should be carried out on worlds with different races of creatures.

You don't have a model of inter-galactic politics and how it works, we are akin to cavemen trying to explain modern day democracy to a tribe of cavemen using our tribal settings and references to give labels to the present day world. So while I can agree very basic labels can exist, giving a name like Communism, and applying it to the Tau is silly. They exist on a level so far above a pitiful human political/economical structure it's beyond our comprehension. They have a ideologically impossible form of government to humans. One that propelled them into technological levels we haven't really matched 40,000 years from now in only 6,000 years of total existence.

We have zero models of human structure to place on them accurately. So instead of calling them Space Nazis, Space Commies, or Space Democracy, you could call the fictional GW Tau, The Tau, who practice The Greater Good. Are there present day similarities? Yes, but they can't really be called the same or different.

Apply the most basic similarities for example:

Humans on Earth: Caste System - Born into a Caste for role in society. Leaders: Top of Caste, Nobility, Wealth.

Tau on T'au: Genetic Caste System - Born into a Caste after years of evolution preferences certain species. Leaders: Aun, Nobility, Mental Guides, Absolute control.

Kinda of the same, but also very different different, so how do you describe it? It's the Greater Good! It's methods don't have specific real world counter parts! That's the fun of it! It's all thrown into one huge alien government.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
You don't have a model of inter-galactic politics and how it works, we are akin to cavemen trying to explain modern day democracy to a tribe of cavemen using our tribal settings and references to give labels to the present day world. So while I can agree very basic labels can exist, giving a name like Communism, and applying it to the Tau is silly. They exist on a level so far above a pitiful human political/economical structure it's beyond our comprehension. They have a ideologically impossible form of government to humans. One that propelled them into technological levels we haven't really matched 40,000 years from now in only 6,000 years of total existence.

We have zero models of human structure to place on them accurately. So instead of calling them Space Nazis, Space Commies, or Space Democracy, you could call the fictional GW Tau, The Tau, who practice The Greater Good. Are there present day similarities? Yes, but they can't really be called the same or different.

Dude, no offense, you put up a very nice point, but let's get back down on the ground, the real ground (at least for a short moment before plunging back into the grim darkness of spess). As I've said in a previous post, the taus are fictional. They're plastic toys with a nice background to make them more a bit more interesting.
What we are debating here is how we could describe their political and social organisation with the info we are given by GW. And their government CAN be described using real-world types of political systems because their history was written by humans, real-life humans who set the basis of the tau culture using their knowledge of the political world around them.

As such, the tau are inspired with some real-life elements.
IMO, socialism is one of them (to some extent), communism too. Capitalism and liberalism? Certainly not.

I'm not saying that the taus are space commies. Nor are they nazis or some evil rogue capitalists. But their economic and social system was written down by real-life humans, it did not evolve from thousands of years of real space-faring history. Thus, the tau government and society is certainly akin to many, many cultures and political systems on Earth.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:They exist on a level so far above a pitiful human political/economical structure it's beyond our comprehension.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there. Time to put the miniatures down for a while and rejoin the rest of us in the real world, lol. You've left the reservation.

We have zero models of human structure to place on them accurately.

Not true at all. I think they've been pegged pretty accurately. Not by the guys calling them "communists" (communism being one of the least well understood socio-political concepts it seems), I'll agree. But the Earth's history has hundreds, if not thousands, of governmental concepts to look back on. It's a pretty comprehensive list you might enjoy doing some actual research on. But the Tau were modeled by pitiful humans, and their ideals are most certainly based on those same pitifully human constructs. They are a blend of several, but being a blend doesn't make them not valid models. And certainly, the guys at GW have never proven themselves to be biologists, military historians and strategists, physicists, or sociologists. I think it's fair to assume they aren't political scientists either and when they wrote the Tau, there was no pretense of having to create anything that made sense as a whole.

Brother Coa wrote:Tau aren't Grimdark enough, ..., no threat of extinction

That's just incorrect, and outrageously so.

The Tau are so ignorant of the galaxy's nature that they're dangerously on the edge of extinction at all times. For example, they believe they killed Slannesh already. The actual god. They think it's dead, because they have utterly no concept of the reality of the world they live in.

The Tau are a tragic faction because they think they are in a different genre than the one they are in. Ignorance will not protect them.