In a straight-up fight using, for example, a sector of a hive city as an arena, which one of these would win? Please do not simply take your favourite; take the one you believe would win. Assume that this is pre-heresy, so they are slightly equal. IMO, choosing a winner is VERY hard.

Angron, because he is so freaking ANGRY!!!!

Seriously, he would break any Primarch in 1 on 1 fight.

Horus. Even the Emperor knew that. That's why he made him Warmaster.

Angron or Magnus the Red, Angron because he would just bash the other guys skulls in and Magnus.. Well he could wrestle a Titan to the ground with his psychic might.. Just saying

Magnus wouldn't win because the other Primarchs have genetic psychic resistance. His powers wouldn't be quite as strong against them. Sure, they'd still hurt, but I doubt he could instantly snap their necks or crush their skulls.

Angron is a tough competitor, but he's too single minded in combat because of his cybernetic implants. The other Primarches are extremely intelligent and could probably outmaneuver him, trick or ambitious him.

Sanguinius can fly, so that's a big advantage right there. However he was never especially gifted in close combat. Besides, Horus one hit killed him on his Battle Barge (of course Horus is slightly less powerful here, but he could still handle him).

Alpharius/Omegon have the advantage of numbers and are sneaky, exceptionally so. They could easily outmaneuver and flank other Primarches. That said, they were described as being more Astartes like than the other Primarches and probably wouldn't be able to win.

Leman Russ is an excellent brawler and has a good chance. But that's it. He wasn't particularly sneaky and doesn't have a lot of the other advantages that other Primarches have. Neither does Horus, but Horus made up for it by sheer skill and determination.

Overall I voted Horus because of the Primarches he's the overall best. He's cunning, fearless, determined, quick and strong. Some of the other Primarches have advantages over him, but nothing major enough to take him down.

I say Horus

LoneLictor wrote:Sanguinius can fly, so that's a big advantage right there. However he was never especially gifted in close combat. Besides, Horus one hit killed him on his Battle Barge (of course Horus is slightly less powerful here, but he could still handle him).

Sanguinius was extremely gifted in close combat. Not only was he said to have peerless skill in that regard but according to Corax, Sanguinius is the only Primarch besides Horus who stands a chance against Angron. However, the answer is still Horus for me.

LoneLictor wrote:
Sanguinius can fly, so that's a big advantage right there. However he was never especially gifted in close combat. Besides, Horus one hit killed him on his Battle Barge (of course Horus is slightly less powerful here, but he could still handle him).

Sanguinius was an absolute close combat beast, actually.

Alpharius/Omegon have the advantage of numbers and are sneaky, exceptionally so. They could easily outmaneuver and flank other Primarches.

Corax would probably have a thing or two to say about that.



Anyway, this question's pre-Heresy, right? I'd probably give it to Angron. Heresy-era, I'd say Horus. Post-Heresy, everybody's dead or a daemon prince. Angron again.

Straight up fight? Angron or Horus. Depending on when they get to them, maybe Sanguinius or Magnus. Manus' sheer toughness might see him through.

In a large area, Angron would likely be the first to go down. Alpharius would stand out as a strong contender due to his more... underhanded tactics. Magnus would be able to wreak havoc with more opportunity to use his powers. Khan might win by blitzing them one by one and recovering in between.

I've always considered Magnus the most powerful Primarch.

Apparently Aurelian outright states this is indeed the case.

Haven't read myself though, so this could be misinformation.

Read this blog post ADB made a couple of days ago.

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/40k-forums/

These discussions… They’re not for me. I find them childish, and I think they miss the point. “Which primarch could beat X, Y and Z?” It’s not that simple. It’s not a matter of Paper always beating Rock, and Rock always beating Scissors. That’s why those “Which Primarch Is Toughest?” threads are so worthless. At their peaks, the primarchs are essentially the same, with things mostly dependent on circumstances. Fights are fights, with all the chaos of emotion, fear, fate, and the thousands of things that can go wrong. They’re not sterile events of “Well, he’s stronger, so he’ll always win.” No race or fight ever plays out that way. Don’t be allergic to nuance. That’s not cool.

Now, whilst I can agree that, roughly, each Primarch is equal once all their advantages and disadvantages are weighed up together, they're all equal on an individual basis, I have to disagree that there can never be a result of an X vs Y in Z situation.

When you put a premise like this on it eg. a huge battle royale between all of them, the balance tips in the favor of a few who are clearly superior to others in this situation. Angron, Kurze, Russ, the brawlers would excel in this situation, as would Magnus whose psychic powers would allow him to fight more than one enemy at a time.

Angron would just charge in and destroy several before moving on to Horus. Pre- heresy Horus wasn't as powerful as in heresy, so would get tired quickly from the brawl, whereas Angron would just go berserk and kill everything.

Killing primarchs isn't exactly a walk in the park. It would drain his energy. And fighting smart is better than fighting angry.

I don't think there would be a clear winner here...

It would be a rather epic fight though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WgT9gy4zQA

Question answered.

hahahahahaha amazing

DeffDred wrote:Horus. Even the Emperor knew that. That's why he made him Warmaster.

He made him Warmaster because Horus had ambition.


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And if they get a chance to set up defenses first, Rogal Dorn

I thought Night Haunter as everyone was scared of him.

Sanguinius or Horus. It's said that Sanguinius and Horus were more or less equal, only that Sanguinius was less ambitious than Horus.

Tadashi wrote:Sanguinius or Horus. It's said that Sanguinius and Horus were more or less equal, only that Sanguinius was less ambitious than Horus.

Sanguinius was the Emperor's beauty, Horus was his ambition, because they all represented a facet of their father.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Sanguinius or Horus. It's said that Sanguinius and Horus were more or less equal, only that Sanguinius was less ambitious than Horus.

Sanguinius was the Emperor's beauty, Horus was his ambition, because they all represented a facet of their father.

I would think Fulgrim was the beauty while Sanguinius represented the Emperor's humanity.

No, Sanguinius would have represented the Emperor's wisdom. Lorgar represented his humanity IMHO.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Sanguinius or Horus. It's said that Sanguinius and Horus were more or less equal, only that Sanguinius was less ambitious than Horus.

Sanguinius was the Emperor's beauty, Horus was his ambition, because they all represented a facet of their father.

I would think Fulgrim was the beauty while Sanguinius represented the Emperor's humanity.

Fulgrim was his artistic side, Sanguinius was his beauty, Rogal Dorn was his wisdom/honour etc.

Deathly Angel wrote:No, Sanguinius would have represented the Emperor's wisdom. Lorgar represented his humanity IMHO.

No, I don't think so. Lorgar would be the Emperor's ability to convert people's beliefs (missionary/diplomat/emissary)?

Tadashi wrote:

Deathly Angel wrote:No, Sanguinius would have represented the Emperor's wisdom. Lorgar represented his humanity IMHO.

No, I don't think so. Lorgar would be the Emperor's ability to convert people's beliefs (missionary/diplomat/emissary)?

Or, more simply put, he is the Emperor's faith. All the primarchs represent a simple, fundamental aspect of him. Plus, the diplomat is Roboute Guiliman.

That would make the Lion the Knight, I suppose.

Tadashi wrote:That would make the Lion the Knight, I suppose.

Most decidedly, yes.

What about Khan, Russ, Manus, and Corax?

Tadashi wrote:What about Khan, Russ, Manus, and Corax?

Russ is his wild side, his aspect of the executioner.

Manus is his Strength

Corax is his subtlety

Khan is his mustache.

Just like the Aspects of Khaine, then.
Lion = the Knight
Fulgrim = the Artist
Lorgar = Belief
Khan = mustache?
Angron = battle fury
Russ = wildness?
Magnus = psychic might
Dorn = the Noble Warrior
Perturabo = Master of Technology
Sanguinius = humanity
Mortarion = endurance
Manus = strength
Kurze = vengeance?
Guilliman = the leader
Alpharius Omegon = tactician
Vulkan = ingenuity
Horus = ambition
Corax = schemer

Tadashi wrote:
Alpharius Omegon = tactician
Corax = schemer

I'd flip those two.

Seaward wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Alpharius Omegon = tactician
Corax = schemer

I'd flip those two.

Then the twins would be schemers while the Raven is the tactician. Thanks!

Though really, I'd say Corax is pragmatism.

This list is blatantly stolen from The Emperor's Champion over on B&C:

The Lion - Coldness, Inimicality, Pessimism
The Khan - Ferocity, Stateliness
Russ - Boldness, Boisterousness
Dorn - Duty, Earnestness, Stubborness, Guilt-ridden
Sanguinius - Altruism, Optimism, Prodigy
Ferrus Manus - Suspicion, Dourness
Guilliman - Efficiency, Order, Honor, Prudence, Selflessness
Vulkan - Unyieldingness, Humanitarianism/Philanthropy, Protector
Corax - Penitence, Remorse, Adroitness, Guile
Fulgrim - Perfectionism, Precisionism, Aestheticism, Decadence
Perturabo - Bitterness, Agitation, Grudging
Night Haunter - Fatalism, Mercilessness, Tormented, Brutality, Justice
Angron - Rage, Destructiveness, Bellicoseness
Mortarion - Enduring, Relentlessness, Vengefulness
Magnus - Thirst For Knowledge, Martyr
Horus - Ambitiousness, Charisma, Megalomania
Lorgar - Faith, Approval Seeking, Piety, Demagoguery
Alpharius & Omegon - Misdirection, Independence, Redundancy, Subversion

Whoah...thanks...

Im the only one who voted for him, but I say Ferrus Manus. It says in HH book Age of Darkness that of all the Primarchs, Ferrus Manus was the largest, size and strength wise. Also, I love that rumour that his hands may have been similar to necrodermis.

Seaward wrote:Though really, I'd say Corax is pragmatism.

This list is blatantly stolen from The Emperor's Champion over on B&C:

The Lion - Coldness, Inimicality, Pessimism
The Khan - Ferocity, Stateliness
Russ - Boldness, Boisterousness
Dorn - Duty, Earnestness, Stubborness, Guilt-ridden
Sanguinius - Altruism, Optimism, Prodigy
Ferrus Manus - Suspicion, Dourness
Guilliman - Efficiency, Order, Honor, Prudence, Selflessness
Vulkan - Unyieldingness, Humanitarianism/Philanthropy, Protector
Corax - Penitence, Remorse, Adroitness, Guile
Fulgrim - Perfectionism, Precisionism, Aestheticism, Decadence
Perturabo - Bitterness, Agitation, Grudging
Night Haunter - Fatalism, Mercilessness, Tormented, Brutality, Justice
Angron - Rage, Destructiveness, Bellicoseness
Mortarion - Enduring, Relentlessness, Vengefulness
Magnus - Thirst For Knowledge, Martyr
Horus - Ambitiousness, Charisma, Megalomania
Lorgar - Faith, Approval Seeking, Piety, Demagoguery
Alpharius & Omegon - Misdirection, Independence, Redundancy, Subversion

I'd say that Angron was his honour, which got corrupted into rage by the Emperor's own actions.

I picked Alpharius/Omegon because I don't think he/they would fight fair. He would skulk in the background and let a cloaked battle barge come blast everyone else from orbit

Tadashi wrote:Just like the Aspects of Khaine, then.
Lion = the Knight
Fulgrim = the Artist
Lorgar = Belief
Khan = mustache?
Angron = battle fury
Russ = wildness?
Magnus = psychic might
Dorn = the Noble Warrior
Perturabo = Master of Technology
Sanguinius = humanity
Mortarion = endurance
Manus = strength
Kurze = vengeance?
Guilliman = the leader
Alpharius Omegon = tactician
Vulkan = ingenuity
Horus = ambition
Corax = schemer

I'd say Magnus represents the aspect of the scholar. These can't be TOO specific. And I'd argue that Guilliman would be the Builder.

And IMHO Sanguinius is his Beauty, and Russ his aspect of the Executioner.

Other than that I think you nailed it, good job mate


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Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:Though really, I'd say Corax is pragmatism.

This list is blatantly stolen from The Emperor's Champion over on B&C:

The Lion - Coldness, Inimicality, Pessimism
The Khan - Ferocity, Stateliness
Russ - Boldness, Boisterousness
Dorn - Duty, Earnestness, Stubborness, Guilt-ridden
Sanguinius - Altruism, Optimism, Prodigy
Ferrus Manus - Suspicion, Dourness
Guilliman - Efficiency, Order, Honor, Prudence, Selflessness
Vulkan - Unyieldingness, Humanitarianism/Philanthropy, Protector
Corax - Penitence, Remorse, Adroitness, Guile
Fulgrim - Perfectionism, Precisionism, Aestheticism, Decadence
Perturabo - Bitterness, Agitation, Grudging
Night Haunter - Fatalism, Mercilessness, Tormented, Brutality, Justice
Angron - Rage, Destructiveness, Bellicoseness
Mortarion - Enduring, Relentlessness, Vengefulness
Magnus - Thirst For Knowledge, Martyr
Horus - Ambitiousness, Charisma, Megalomania
Lorgar - Faith, Approval Seeking, Piety, Demagoguery
Alpharius & Omegon - Misdirection, Independence, Redundancy, Subversion

I'd say that Angron was his honour, which got corrupted into rage by the Emperor's own actions.

Even before the Emperor's interference, Angron was angry. He had been implanted with the angry-ifing thing in his head while he was a gladiator.

What exactly does 'his aspect of the executioner' even mean?

im2randomghgh wrote:Even before the Emperor's interference, Angron was angry. He had been implanted with the angry-ifing thing in his head while he was a gladiator.

Yes, but he still had honour (not sure if he does. It would be good if he does.), and clearly cared for his comrades. The Emperor arguably kept him on the path of anger due to His actions (Angron would still have been angry, but it wouldn't have been directed anger - he wouldn't be hating those he was forging, with blood, the Imperium for).

Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

Sangunius, for he was in any battle were he failed heavily wounded.

daveNYC wrote:What exactly does 'his aspect of the executioner' even mean?

It means that They are not like the ultramrines, building and empire, or the WB, spreading faith. They are meant to utterly destroy whatever they attack. An axe or a hammer, rather than a spear head.

im2randomghgh wrote:

daveNYC wrote:What exactly does 'his aspect of the executioner' even mean?

It means that They are not like the ultramrines, building and empire, or the WB, spreading faith. They are meant to utterly destroy whatever they attack. An axe or a hammer, rather than a spear head.

I think what he meant was that the Emperor didn't have an 'executioner' aspect, so it just doesn't sound right. Ambition, Nobility, Pride, Executioner. One of these things is not like the others.

Orblivion wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

daveNYC wrote:What exactly does 'his aspect of the executioner' even mean?

It means that They are not like the ultramrines, building and empire, or the WB, spreading faith. They are meant to utterly destroy whatever they attack. An axe or a hammer, rather than a spear head.

I think what he meant was that the Emperor didn't have an 'executioner' aspect, so it just doesn't sound right. Ambition, Nobility, Pride, Executioner. One of these things is not like the others.

But the emperor most certainly did. He was not a perfect man, by any stretch of the imagination.

His Great Crusade sounds all noble and epic, until you realise how arrogant "purge everything in the entire galaxy that isn't human" sounds.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

daveNYC wrote:What exactly does 'his aspect of the executioner' even mean?

It means that They are not like the ultramrines, building and empire, or the WB, spreading faith. They are meant to utterly destroy whatever they attack. An axe or a hammer, rather than a spear head.

I think what he meant was that the Emperor didn't have an 'executioner' aspect, so it just doesn't sound right. Ambition, Nobility, Pride, Executioner. One of these things is not like the others.

But the emperor most certainly did. He was not a perfect man, by any stretch of the imagination.

His Great Crusade sounds all noble and epic, until you realise how arrogant "purge everything in the entire galaxy that isn't human" sounds.

Nope, still not what he/I meant. The point is, 'executioner' is not a personality trait, so it doesn't sound right to say that Russ was the aspect of the executioner. Basically, he was just busting your balls.

Khan's big thing is unity from what little there is to read about him. He's also got the fierce tribal loyalty thing going on......Though he does have a rocking mustache too...

"He instantly recognized that this man could fulfill his dream of unifying all the stars. The Great Khan immediately dropped to his knee and pledged his eternal service to this man in front of all of his shocked generals." -Paraphrase of Khan meeting the Emperor from IA

I wouldn't say I was just busting his balls. The question was snarky, but the point behind it was that 'Executioner' is really just a job. A personality aspect is something more than just a job title.

Orblivion wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

daveNYC wrote:What exactly does 'his aspect of the executioner' even mean?

It means that They are not like the ultramrines, building and empire, or the WB, spreading faith. They are meant to utterly destroy whatever they attack. An axe or a hammer, rather than a spear head.

I think what he meant was that the Emperor didn't have an 'executioner' aspect, so it just doesn't sound right. Ambition, Nobility, Pride, Executioner. One of these things is not like the others.

But the emperor most certainly did. He was not a perfect man, by any stretch of the imagination.

His Great Crusade sounds all noble and epic, until you realise how arrogant "purge everything in the entire galaxy that isn't human" sounds.

Nope, still not what he/I meant. The point is, 'executioner' is not a personality trait, so it doesn't sound right to say that Russ was the aspect of the executioner. Basically, he was just busting your balls.

I didn't say they were all personality traits. Magnus is Him as the Scholar, Lorgar as the Priest, Horus the Leader etc., I said they were aspects of him.

Medium of Death wrote:I don't think there would be a clear winner here...

It would be a rather epic fight though.

I have to agree with this.

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Tadashi wrote:

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Yeah, it definately couldn't have been avoided entirely.

Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Word bearers, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were on a slippery slope.

And they are all equally close to the Emperor.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Yeah, it definately couldn't have been avoided entirely.

Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Word bearers, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were on a slippery slope.

And they are all equally close to the Emperor.

Maybe not the Thousand Sons. Magnus and Sanguinius were both psykers, and would have understood each other better.

Konrad Curze, as for why? It's because he's the GD Batman in power armor.

For a non comical reason, he really was pretty much batman, haunting the city and dealing with criminals. It takes skills to stay hidden like that, esp as a 7 foot tall superhuman being. He also has an advantage shared with Sanguinius, they are both precognitive, and I'm willing to bet having the ability to glimpse the future would help alot.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Yeah, it definately couldn't have been avoided entirely.

Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Word bearers, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were on a slippery slope.

And they are all equally close to the Emperor.

Maybe not the Thousand Sons. Magnus and Sanguinius were both psykers, and would have understood each other better.

But even before the Heresy, Magnus had already made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the mutation of the 1k sons.


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CrashCanuck wrote:Konrad Curze, as for why? It's because he's the GD Batman in power armor.

For a non comical reason, he really was pretty much batman, haunting the city and dealing with criminals. It takes skills to stay hidden like that, esp as a 7 foot tall superhuman being. He also has an advantage shared with Sanguinius, they are both precognitive, and I'm willing to bet having the ability to glimpse the future would help alot.

Considerably more than 7', as that is the height of marines, and primarchs are taller than marines.

Either way, there is the key difference of Night Haunter being a murderer, and Batman never taking human life, ever.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Yeah, it definately couldn't have been avoided entirely.

Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Word bearers, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were on a slippery slope.

And they are all equally close to the Emperor.

Maybe not the Thousand Sons. Magnus and Sanguinius were both psykers, and would have understood each other better.

But even before the Heresy, Magnus had already made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the mutation of the 1k sons.


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CrashCanuck wrote:Konrad Curze, as for why? It's because he's the GD Batman in power armor.

For a non comical reason, he really was pretty much batman, haunting the city and dealing with criminals. It takes skills to stay hidden like that, esp as a 7 foot tall superhuman being. He also has an advantage shared with Sanguinius, they are both precognitive, and I'm willing to bet having the ability to glimpse the future would help alot.

Considerably more than 7', as that is the height of marines, and primarchs are taller than marines.

Either way, there is the key difference of Night Haunter being a murderer, and Batman never taking human life, ever.

Then break it. Magnus could use his own power to escape the terms, and I'm sure if the Thousand Sons could place limits on their powers they could escape the flesh-change.

Horus.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Yeah, it definately couldn't have been avoided entirely.

Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Word bearers, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were on a slippery slope.

And they are all equally close to the Emperor.

Maybe not the Thousand Sons. Magnus and Sanguinius were both psykers, and would have understood each other better.

But even before the Heresy, Magnus had already made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the mutation of the 1k sons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashCanuck wrote:Konrad Curze, as for why? It's because he's the GD Batman in power armor.

For a non comical reason, he really was pretty much batman, haunting the city and dealing with criminals. It takes skills to stay hidden like that, esp as a 7 foot tall superhuman being. He also has an advantage shared with Sanguinius, they are both precognitive, and I'm willing to bet having the ability to glimpse the future would help alot.

Considerably more than 7', as that is the height of marines, and primarchs are taller than marines.

Either way, there is the key difference of Night Haunter being a murderer, and Batman never taking human life, ever.

Then break it. Magnus could use his own power to escape the terms, and I'm sure if the Thousand Sons could place limits on their powers they could escape the flesh-change.

You can't really break a promise to a Chaos God unless your name is Alpharius and it hasn't happened yet.

Tzeentch would just stop limiting their mutations. It was originally because of unstable gene-seed, not sorcery that they mutated. And Magnus REALLY couldn't use his powers to overcome tzeentch, That would be like fighting a fish with nice, clean water.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Yeah, it definately couldn't have been avoided entirely.

Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Word bearers, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were on a slippery slope.

And they are all equally close to the Emperor.

Maybe not the Thousand Sons. Magnus and Sanguinius were both psykers, and would have understood each other better.

But even before the Heresy, Magnus had already made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the mutation of the 1k sons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashCanuck wrote:Konrad Curze, as for why? It's because he's the GD Batman in power armor.

For a non comical reason, he really was pretty much batman, haunting the city and dealing with criminals. It takes skills to stay hidden like that, esp as a 7 foot tall superhuman being. He also has an advantage shared with Sanguinius, they are both precognitive, and I'm willing to bet having the ability to glimpse the future would help alot.

Considerably more than 7', as that is the height of marines, and primarchs are taller than marines.

Either way, there is the key difference of Night Haunter being a murderer, and Batman never taking human life, ever.

Then break it. Magnus could use his own power to escape the terms, and I'm sure if the Thousand Sons could place limits on their powers they could escape the flesh-change.

You can't really break a promise to a Chaos God unless your name is Alpharius and it hasn't happened yet.

Tzeentch would just stop limiting their mutations. It was originally because of unstable gene-seed, not sorcery that they mutated. And Magnus REALLY couldn't use his powers to overcome tzeentch, That would be like fighting a fish with nice, clean water.

Then he asks for help from the Emperor. Let's say Sanguinius did become Warmaster. Magnus asks Sanguinius for help. Sanguinius probably had more empathy than all other Primarchs put together. If Sanguinius convinces Magnus to humble himself and ask for help from the Emperor, then the Emperor would probably use His own god-like might to smash the bonds between Magnus and Tzeentch. Magnus regains his faith in the Emperor, and the Thousand Sons can rejoin the Great Crusade without having to fear the flesh-change anymore.

Lion El Johnson

A= his name is bad ass
B= He is my favorite
Any questions?

Not a question so much as a statement.

Konrad Curze beat him in a fight.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Orblivion wrote:Horus claimed that Sanguinius had it all, and did not represent any single facet of the Emperor like so many other primarchs did. Sanguinius was basically a scaled down version of the Emperor.

Still, I think Horus was the best of them.

True, now that you mention it, Sanguinius was the closest of the Primarchs to what and who the Emperor was. In my opinion (and Horus before he fell to Chaos), Sanguinius should have made Warmaster. Then perhaps the Heresy could have been avoided, or at least reduced in scope.

Yeah, it definately couldn't have been avoided entirely.

Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Word bearers, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors were on a slippery slope.

And they are all equally close to the Emperor.

Maybe not the Thousand Sons. Magnus and Sanguinius were both psykers, and would have understood each other better.

But even before the Heresy, Magnus had already made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the mutation of the 1k sons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashCanuck wrote:Konrad Curze, as for why? It's because he's the GD Batman in power armor.

For a non comical reason, he really was pretty much batman, haunting the city and dealing with criminals. It takes skills to stay hidden like that, esp as a 7 foot tall superhuman being. He also has an advantage shared with Sanguinius, they are both precognitive, and I'm willing to bet having the ability to glimpse the future would help alot.

Considerably more than 7', as that is the height of marines, and primarchs are taller than marines.

Either way, there is the key difference of Night Haunter being a murderer, and Batman never taking human life, ever.

Then break it. Magnus could use his own power to escape the terms, and I'm sure if the Thousand Sons could place limits on their powers they could escape the flesh-change.

You can't really break a promise to a Chaos God unless your name is Alpharius and it hasn't happened yet.

Tzeentch would just stop limiting their mutations. It was originally because of unstable gene-seed, not sorcery that they mutated. And Magnus REALLY couldn't use his powers to overcome tzeentch, That would be like fighting a fish with nice, clean water.

Then he asks for help from the Emperor. Let's say Sanguinius did become Warmaster. Magnus asks Sanguinius for help. Sanguinius probably had more empathy than all other Primarchs put together. If Sanguinius convinces Magnus to humble himself and ask for help from the Emperor, then the Emperor would probably use His own god-like might to smash the bonds between Magnus and Tzeentch. Magnus regains his faith in the Emperor, and the Thousand Sons can rejoin the Great Crusade without having to fear the flesh-change anymore.

This happened LONG before the warmaster was named. This was like day one Magnus with his new Legion.

And the Emperor would probably purge Magnus if he knew he was dealing with Tzeentch, the way he purged II and XI.

@ Tadashi:

I disagree with the Alpha Legion being on a slippery slope. Have you read Legion?

Castiel wrote:@ Tadashi:

I disagree with the Alpha Legion being on a slippery slope. Have you read Legion?

That was me who said they were.

And they associated with the Eldar. They were on the route to xenos-y treachery, rather than chaos-y treachery

im2randomghgh wrote:

Castiel wrote:@ Tadashi:

I disagree with the Alpha Legion being on a slippery slope. Have you read Legion?

That was me who said they were.

And they associated with the Eldar. They were on the route to xenos-y treachery, rather than chaos-y treachery

No they associated with one Eldar. As for the Alpha Legion, I heard from a 40ker on SB who said that in the latest books or something like that. The Alpha Legion betray the CABAL. So if its true, yeah they don't give crap about anyone.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Castiel wrote:@ Tadashi:

I disagree with the Alpha Legion being on a slippery slope. Have you read Legion?

That was me who said they were.

And they associated with the Eldar. They were on the route to xenos-y treachery, rather than chaos-y treachery

No they associated with one Eldar. As for the Alpha Legion, I heard from a 40ker on SB who said that in the latest books or something like that. The Alpha Legion betray the CABAL. So if its true, yeah they don't give crap about anyone.

Well they obviously did give a crap if the eldar were enough to make Alpharius betray the Emperor.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Well they obviously did give a crap if the eldar were enough to make Alpharius betray the Emperor.

The Eldar was just a member of the CABAL which is made up of various races and not all Eldar.

Here is what was stated: On a side note Omegon literally kicks a representitive of the Cabal out of the airlock and states they don't need the Cabal anymore.

I can provide a link if you want?

Leman Russ's is to kill any primarch the emperor tells him to.
Plus he treated Horus like a chump so hes the real deal

Russ got lucky against Magnus. If he hadn't hit Magnus in the eye, Magnus would taken Russ' head.

Tadashi wrote:Russ got lucky against Magnus. If he hadn't hit Magnus in the eye, Magnus would taken Russ' head.

If Magnus hadn't hit Russ in the heart Russ would've won by even more.

What's the point of what ifs?

What if The Emperor randomly teleported down halfway through the duel and killed them both?

Then both Space Wolves and Thousand Sons would have joined Horus. This is a discussion. We speculate on what ifs. That's the point.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Konrad Curze beat him in a fight.

Didn't A-D-B explicitly state that in his view it was actually more of a stalemate? The Night Haunter held the temporary advantage but that it was by no means over?

Tadashi wrote:Then both Space Wolves and Thousand Sons would have joined Horus. This is a discussion. We speculate on what ifs. That's the point.

If there were any left to join Horus.

True.

im2randomghgh wrote:If Magnus hadn't hit Russ in the heart Russ would've won by even more.

What's the point of what ifs?

What if The Emperor randomly teleported down halfway through the duel and killed them both?

The difference is that Magnus hit Russ in the heart intentionally, using his own skill in power.

Russ flailed blindly and just happened to get a lucky shot on Magnus' eye, which crippled him more than a mere punctured heart.

At REG, I don't know what ADB himself said. But yeah, it wasn't a total stomp like some people pretend it is, but Curze isn't really one of the more combat-capable Primarchs either (Compared to say Angron or Sanguinius).

Kurze is a backstabbing supersneaky brute.
What's not to love?

Khan because he has an awesome bike and before anyone reaches him, they would be dead.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Well they obviously did give a crap if the eldar were enough to make Alpharius betray the Emperor.

The Eldar was just a member of the CABAL which is made up of various races and not all Eldar.

Here is what was stated: On a side note Omegon literally kicks a representitive of the Cabal out of the airlock and states they don't need the Cabal anymore.

I can provide a link if you want?

Wait, what? Yes! LINK!

Durza wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Well they obviously did give a crap if the eldar were enough to make Alpharius betray the Emperor.

The Eldar was just a member of the CABAL which is made up of various races and not all Eldar.

Here is what was stated: On a side note Omegon literally kicks a representitive of the Cabal out of the airlock and states they don't need the Cabal anymore.

I can provide a link if you want?

Wait, what? Yes! LINK!

Here you go http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=204846.

It can be found later in the first page and for most of the second page and they have a link to warseer.com for the full idea of what happens.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:If Magnus hadn't hit Russ in the heart Russ would've won by even more.

What's the point of what ifs?

What if The Emperor randomly teleported down halfway through the duel and killed them both?

The difference is that Magnus hit Russ in the heart intentionally, using his own skill in power.

Russ flailed blindly and just happened to get a lucky shot on Magnus' eye, which crippled him more than a mere punctured heart.

So basically what you're telling me is that Magnus was so unskilled that he got caught off guard by someone he supposedly had dead to rights........I bet Russ broke his back because that's his weak spot too.

He knew exactly how to cripple Magnus

Russ Mandarin wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:If Magnus hadn't hit Russ in the heart Russ would've won by even more.

What's the point of what ifs?

What if The Emperor randomly teleported down halfway through the duel and killed them both?

The difference is that Magnus hit Russ in the heart intentionally, using his own skill in power.

Russ flailed blindly and just happened to get a lucky shot on Magnus' eye, which crippled him more than a mere punctured heart.

So basically what you're telling me is that Magnus was so unskilled that he got caught off guard by someone he supposedly had dead to rights........I bet Russ broke his back because that's his weak spot too.

He knew exactly how to cripple Magnus

Well, come to think of it...... No.
Magnus had the upper hand, Russ won due to luck. He was blinded, so flailed in desperation, and hit the smallest target on Magnus's body. Extreme luck or Tzeentch trickery, either way, it shows Russ was the victor due to the machinations of something outside of both his and his opponent's control, and not because of his own skill.

Not to mention that Magnus's attentions were split between a number of different events, like transporting his entire Legion and the people of Prospero in the Eye of Terror, and holding off the Space Wolves, whilst in the presence of Sisters of Silence.

Konrad Curze - this guy was used to assasinate OTHER PRIMARCHS. He's simply the unstoppable version of Batman. Who is awesome.....
Sqallum

Sqallum wrote:Konrad Curze - this guy was used to assasinate OTHER PRIMARCHS. He's simply the unstoppable version of Batman. Who is awesome.....
Sqallum

Could you name any of these OTHER PRIMARCHS that Curze assassinated?

Incidentally, I'm now changing my vote to Fulgrim, just based on his record.

First time he was aided by a Daemon Sword. Second time wasn't even Fulgrim, and was way after the Heresy.

iproxtaco wrote:First time he was aided by a Daemon Sword. Second time wasn't even Fulgrim, and was way after the Heresy.

Still, he's the only Primarch with even one confirmed Primarch kill.

True, but neither kills were his doing, and were the achievements of other entities working through Fulgrim.

Well then, the Laeran daemon in Fulgrim's body has the highest primarch kill count.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Durza wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Well they obviously did give a crap if the eldar were enough to make Alpharius betray the Emperor.

The Eldar was just a member of the CABAL which is made up of various races and not all Eldar.

Here is what was stated: On a side note Omegon literally kicks a representitive of the Cabal out of the airlock and states they don't need the Cabal anymore.

I can provide a link if you want?

Wait, what? Yes! LINK!

Here you go http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=204846.

It can be found later in the first page and for most of the second page and they have a link to warseer.com for the full idea of what happens.

Simultaneously that makes Alpharius awesome and Corax not awesome. I don't know whether to be annoyed or not.

theres a lot of IFs in this but its rumored that The Emperor is the grey knights Primark, i would put my money on him if it was a flat out fight...not a "my death would save the Imperium of man" type move.

Im sure this isnt fair to add, but what would happen if you took every primark vs the Emperor.

The primarchs would win. Numbers beat skill any day. Apart from Thursday.

Seriously, Horus at perhaps double his normal power was enough to kill the Emperor. Now imagine if Horus had Sanguinius and Angron fighting alongside him while Magnus restrained his psychic powers. That's just four.

but the emperor isn't "dead" in respect to his will protecting mankind.

The Emperor is now the figurehead of a corrupt Imperium. When Horus struck him down, it began the long descent of his empire into what it currently is. Horus destroyed the Emperor as a leader, destroyed what he tried to build and put him on life support. Horus killed the Emperor whether he's dead or not.

I have to ask. Why call the Imperium corrupt? Is it more corrupt in comparison to who exactly? Chaos and Imperium are both corrupt and you can add Tau into that mix with their hypocrisy and Eldar with their arrogance.

HORUS ALL THE WAY! Kill for the Living, KIll for the dead.

but the emperor still protects the Imperium of man from the warp and Chaos...mankind would be wiped off the map if it wasn't for him...at the same time people arnt using the time the emperor is giving mankind to do what is needed to put the Imperium back on the right track.

At the same time for the OP this is talking about ones power in a moment that took down a man, but now that same man is making small changes throughout the galaxy to steer man in the right direction, and protect thos of pure heart.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I have to ask. Why call the Imperium corrupt? Is it more corrupt in comparison to who exactly? Chaos and Imperium are both corrupt and you can add Tau into that mix with their hypocrisy and Eldar with their arrogance.

Chaos isn't corrupt at all. It is exactly what it appears to be. Evil. The Imperium is corrupt in that those in power are often as bad as the enemy they claim to fight.

Durza wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I have to ask. Why call the Imperium corrupt? Is it more corrupt in comparison to who exactly? Chaos and Imperium are both corrupt and you can add Tau into that mix with their hypocrisy and Eldar with their arrogance.

Chaos isn't corrupt at all. It is exactly what it appears to be. Evil. The Imperium is corrupt in that those in power are often as bad as the enemy they claim to fight.

but that's not everyone, that's a few and more times then not they get whats coming to them...or the Sisters get a hold of them.

Russ Mandarin wrote:So basically what you're telling me is that Magnus was so unskilled that he got caught off guard by someone he supposedly had dead to rights........I bet Russ broke his back because that's his weak spot too.

He knew exactly how to cripple Magnus

Only what I said is actually backed up by the book.

"Caught off guard" implies that Russ made an unorthodox and intelligent attack that Magnus could not react to or expect. That last part is correct, the first part is not.

When I say Russ "flailed blindly," I don't say that as in that is my interpretation of the story. I mean that is exactly what the story says. Flailed blindly.

Magnus and Russ were going back and forth at the start of the fight, with Magnus punching through Russ' heart and Russ breaking Magnus' arm, only after this, Magnus maintained a decisive advantage, impaling Russ with a blade of pure thought, killing the wolves Russ brought to help him fight Magnus (Yes that's right, Russ had help fighting Magnus), and scalding and blinding him with Warpfire. This isn't even mentioning that Magnus was beating Russ' ass while tearing and transmuting apart the surface of Prospero, holding back the entire Space Wolves from interfering in their fight, killing Wolves and Custodians who attempted to go after the Thousand Sons while fighting Russ, and of course preparing a spell to transport all the Thousand Sons and humans who served them to the Eye of Terror (Which numbers in the millions of people). Oh, and of course he did this in the presence of several members of the Sisters of Silence, as iproxtaco said.

Magnus was more powerful than Leman Russ, who won by luck and luck alone (Or maybe Tzeentch orchestrated this via fate, hard to say).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:Well then, the Laeran daemon in Fulgrim's body has the highest primarch kill count.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:The primarchs would win. Numbers beat skill any day. Apart from Thursday.

Seriously, Horus at perhaps double his normal power was enough to kill the Emperor. Now imagine if Horus had Sanguinius and Angron fighting alongside him while Magnus restrained his psychic powers. That's just four.

I'd say maybe, just maybe, the massed might of all four Chaos Gods did slightly more than just double Horus' power.

Ferrus, he was the strongest. It took 7 legions to take him down, he didn't run like a ****** like Vulkan or Corax. Went down swinging like a true Hero, bloody but unbowed, met his end like a true warrior. Fulgrim was an opportunist and it was not a fair 1 vs 1 fight, having your entire legion massacred by 7 others.

He was straight, uncorruptable, loyal and headstrong. The perfect Warrior. He is the HECTOR of 40k.

2nd choice would be Sanguinius, even Horus thought he should be warmaster.

Love this image, very stirring imagery.

mwnciboo wrote:Ferrus, he was the strongest. It took 7 legions to take him down, he didn't run like a ****** like Vulkan or Corax. Went down swinging like a true Hero, bloody but unbowed, met his end like a true warrior. Fulgrim was an opportunist.

Uh, that's kind of an exagerration of the events.

mwnciboo wrote:Ferrus, he was the strongest. It took a single primarch with a fancy sword to take him down, he didn't run like Vulkan or Corax. Went down swinging like a true Hero.

One on One, he would smash any of them.

One on one, he was roughly even with Fulgrim. Which means he loses to Horus, Sanguinius and Angron. At least.

To be fair, Fulgrim is highly regarded as a combatant, would say he's a bit above the norm for Primarchs, though yeah, not to the extent of Angron, Sanguinius, or Horus in martial combat, and of course Magnus and Lorgar are powerful psykers.

Edit: Also, digging the new avatar Durza.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Durza wrote:Well then, the Laeran daemon in Fulgrim's body has the highest primarch kill count.

Spoiler:

Doesn't Lorgar make said Daemon his bitch in Aurelian?

Yes, but how many primarchs has that guy killed?

Durza wrote:The primarchs would win. Numbers beat skill any day. Apart from Thursday.

Seriously, Horus at perhaps double his normal power was enough to kill the Emperor. Now imagine if Horus had Sanguinius and Angron fighting alongside him while Magnus restrained his psychic powers. That's just four.

I'd say maybe, just maybe, the massed might of all four Chaos Gods did slightly more than just double Horus' power.

Overall, I wouldn't say so. He was the strongest primarch beforehand. Any more than double and that couldn't be true.

EDIT: Fixed quotes.

And thanks.

Durza wrote:Yes, but how many primarchs has that guy killed?

None, but it shows Lorgar is stronger than the dude who killed two Primarchs.

Overall, I wouldn't say so. He was the strongest primarch beforehand. Any more than double and that couldn't be true.

Horus was certainly one of the strongest Primarchs before-hand in martial combat. Him being definitely the most powerful is arguable. Corax's word gets far too much credit than it really should.

And I don't think so, keep in mind not only was his physical might increased, but he was granted immense psychic power on the level of the Emperor.

The Emperor is powerful enough by virtue of his own psychic might to rival the combined power of all four Chaos Gods.

I'd like to think that the other Primarchs couldn't be corrupted by Chaos at all if one among their number was so powerful the combined might of the four powers gave him only double his own might. Especially when you consider that Horus wasn't an active psyker at all, like Lorgar and Magnus were.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Durza wrote:Yes, but how many primarchs has that guy killed?

None, but it shows Lorgar is stronger than the dude who killed two Primarchs.

True, but I think my original comment was in reply to something regarding primarch kill tallies or something. But that was a whole page ago. I'm attributing that loss at least partly to the fact that the daemon hadn't shaped the body to its liking yet.

Overall, I wouldn't say so. He was the strongest primarch beforehand. Any more than double and that couldn't be true.

Horus was certainly one of the strongest Primarchs before-hand in martial combat. Him being definitely the most powerful is arguable. Corax's word gets far too much credit than it really should.

True, but it's hard to imagine the Emperor making these divine super beings at much less than half as powerful as himself when he wanted to use them to conquer the galaxy. Even if it was more then double though, numbers more than make up for strength when they're that heavily in your favour.

Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

Durza wrote:True, but I think my original comment was in reply to something regarding primarch kill tallies or something. But that was a whole page ago. I'm attributing that loss at least partly to the fact that the daemon hadn't shaped the body to its liking yet.

Possible, though Lorgar is also a pretty powerful psyker, even in First Heretic.

True, but it's hard to imagine the Emperor making these divine super beings at much less than half as powerful as himself when he wanted to use them to conquer the galaxy. Even if it was more then double though, numbers more than make up for strength when they're that heavily in your favour.

I personally find it harder to believe that Horus was about as powerful as all four Chaos Gods, personally.

That said, the Primarchs did IMO overall rival the Emperor's physical capabilities, but even Magnus couldn't reach his father's sheer psychic power, and Horus was actually shown in Collected Visions to be physically superior to the Emperor, possibly due to Chaos' influence.

But the gods were just giving him power. Too much and he could blow up or become a spawn.

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

Try Aurelian.

Durza wrote:But the gods were just giving him power. Too much and he could blow up or become a spawn.

He obviously had their favor.

Keep in mind that Collected Visions outright states that the massed might of the Chaos Gods was in Horus.

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

He gets better.

Void__Dragon wrote:
At REG, I don't know what ADB himself said. But yeah, it wasn't a total stomp like some people pretend it is, but Curze isn't really one of the more combat-capable Primarchs either (Compared to say Angron or Sanguinius).

In case you find it interesting, here are his views from Bolter and Chainsword; http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=227612&st=0

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Curze doesn't best the Lion. It's a fight like most fights between equals; it ebbs and flows, with the advantage exchanging between each participant. The Lion starts out easily beating the hell out of Curze when it comes to weapons, but when it devolves into a brawl on the ground, Curze starts to come out on top. Then the fight is ended by a Dark Angel, before any real conclusion. Were the Night Lords smart and/or brave enough to end the fight? Nope. The Dark Angels did. A knight left his sword in a primarch's spine. That's balls of solid bronze, right there. And right at the end, it's clear that it was an equal resolution: both primarchs are equally wounded. Even the Night Lords in this story don't get the main character, Corswain. Sevatar and Sheng are held off by one Angel, and Curze gets sneak attacked a second time because he's too frothing and wounded to focus like a decent warrior would.

This really highlights one of the dangers of 40K. You write something with absolute neutrality; with no one winning; with both sides inflicting equal damage to one another; even with one side getting the advantage over a faction you usually write about, and still it's easy to see it as "This guy makes the Night Lords awesome all the time." Um. Like... when I make them cowards? When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty, while Curze is a suffering wretch who gets impaled by two sneak attacks? They got a cameo in The First Heretic, when Curze saves (and hates) the character I really like, and Sevatar is ordered to stop Corax, which he immediately fails to do. As cameos go, that's not exactly exalting them.

He also posted (and this is directly relevant)

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:But this is why I never really join in those "Which primarch is a better fighter" threads. Because the answer is always really "Whichever one has circumstantial advantage in that particular moment." They're equals, really. It's the circumstantial things like emotion, desperation, and the things happening around them that make it interesting, not just whom happens to be more generally badass than whomever else. When someone says "Angron is the best fighter", I find that leeches my interest rather than adds to it. I see Angron beating anyone if the situation is right, or losing to anyone if the situation is absolutely wrong. Hell, even Lorgar. Sure, we saw him at his lowest ebb in The First Heretic, but six months after Istvaan? He's not going to be the same guy at all.

For the record, I think you are being somewhat harsh to Curze. While not as focussed on the martial aspect of it, he did certainly do what Primarchs do best; he fought a lot.

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

That's true.

It's also true that he becomes one of the most powerful during the course of the Heresy. Once he finds his true calling, he becomes quite a beast.

Durza wrote:The Emperor is now the figurehead of a corrupt Imperium. When Horus struck him down, it began the long descent of his empire into what it currently is. Horus destroyed the Emperor as a leader, destroyed what he tried to build and put him on life support. Horus killed the Emperor whether he's dead or not.

And the Emperor's 'death' would destroy the Imperium, allowing the reborn Emperor to rebuild it. Rebirth through destruction...that's what the Emperor is good at...

"When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty"

I can't help but notice that this is completely contradictory to Lion El'Jonson's prior characterization in the novels concerning him. The Lion was a scumbag in every sense of the word.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:For the record, I think you are being somewhat harsh to Curze. While not as focussed on the martial aspect of it, he did certainly do what Primarchs do best; he fought a lot.

Of course he did.

But the idea that ADB seems to be proposing, that every Primarch is equal in combat, is not supported by anything BL or GW or has actually put out.

The notion that for instance Guilliman, who is arguably less of a physical threat than even pre-character development Lorgar (Lorgar pretty easily closed a pretty large gap and knocked him on his ass, with Guilliman, who was previously impassive, looking noticeably hesitant afterwards, this also being a book ADB wrote incidently), could best Horus, Angron, or Sanguinius in martial combat, is highly unlikely, if not completely impossible. Some Primarchs are simply better in terms of combat than others. Oh sure, Guilliman is very capable at logistics or strategy, or bringing a world into compliance, and you can argue that when all areas are considered the Primarchs are more or less equal, but when speaking only of power within combat? Yeah no.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Curze is weak. But as strong as Angron, Horus, Sanguinius, or Magnus? Probably not. He's a step below them IMO, on the level of the Lion (Obviously) and Leman Russ (Though Russ is harder to gauge).

Void__Dragon wrote:"When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty"

I can't help but notice that this is completely contradictory to Lion El'Jonson's prior characterization in the novels concerning him. The Lion was a scumbag in every sense of the word.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:For the record, I think you are being somewhat harsh to Curze. While not as focussed on the martial aspect of it, he did certainly do what Primarchs do best; he fought a lot.

Of course he did.

But the idea that ADB seems to be proposing, that every Primarch is equal in combat, is not supported by anything BL or GW or has actually put out.

The notion that for instance Guilliman, who is arguably less of a physical threat than even pre-character development Lorgar (Lorgar pretty easily closed a pretty large gap and knocked him on his ass, with Guilliman, who was previously impassive, looking noticeably hesitant afterwards, this also being a book ADB wrote incidently), could best Horus, Angron, or Sanguinius in martial combat, is highly unlikely, if not completely impossible. Some Primarchs are simply better in terms of combat than others. Oh sure, Guilliman is very capable at logistics or strategy, or bringing a world into compliance, and you can argue that when all areas are considered the Primarchs are more or less equal, but when speaking only of power within combat? Yeah no.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Curze is weak. But as strong as Angron, Horus, Sanguinius, or Magnus? Probably not. He's a step below them IMO, on the level of the Lion (Obviously) and Leman Russ (Though Russ is harder to gauge).

I agree, though a little less...strongly worded.

TBH When I think of primarchs in combat, I think of them almost in tiers.
Emperor
Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus
Dorn Horus Russ Corax Fulgrim
Lion Curze Perturabo Khan Manus
Vulkan Lorgar Mortarion Alpharius/Omegon
Guilliman
...
...
...
Valdor. I just thought I'd include him because he's badass.

That was strongly worded?

Hm, I apologise if that is how SREG finds it, it was unintentional.

im2randomghgh wrote:TBH When I think of primarchs in combat, I think of them almost in tiers.
Emperor
Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus
Dorn Horus Russ Corax Fulgrim
Lion Curze Perturabo Khan Manus
Vulkan Lorgar Mortarion Alpharius/Omegon
Guilliman
...
...
...
Valdor. I just thought I'd include him because he's badass.

I'd mostly agree, but Angry Lorgar is somewhere between tier two and three. Alpharius is probably even with Guilliman, considering a normal human was able to hold 'Alpharius' off and Guilliman beat 'Alpharius' in combat.

Yeah, Lorgar gets pretty powerful later on based on what I've heard about Aurelian.



Alpharius I have always considered to be weaker than his brothers in combat, IMHO. Being able to pull off having normal Astartes act as your stand-in in battles implies that he's not that strong relative to his brothers.

Durza wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:TBH When I think of primarchs in combat, I think of them almost in tiers.
Emperor
Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus
Dorn Horus Russ Corax Fulgrim
Lion Curze Perturabo Khan Manus
Vulkan Lorgar Mortarion Alpharius/Omegon
Guilliman
...
...
...
Valdor. I just thought I'd include him because he's badass.

I'd mostly agree, but Angry Lorgar is somewhere between tier two and three. Alpharius is probably even with Guilliman, considering a normal human was able to hold 'Alpharius' off and Guilliman beat 'Alpharius' in combat.

Well this would be Heresy-era, considering a lot of them are dead now (enough of them are dead that Valdor would be up there )
meaning it would be the same Lorgar who got raped by Corax.

Also, Alpharius is weaker than any one primarch, true, but he's actually 2, so not that bad.

Have to go with Angron, not only is he one of the only still living Primarchs(daemon I know but still he survived for over 10,000 years plus) it was said that few could match him save Sanguinius and Horus. It makes sense. I would narrow it down to Horus, Russ, Angron and Sanguinius in a straight up 1 vs 1 torney style to the death. Reasons: personal of course but also there personalities looking past combat prowess. Russ and Angron both could give two cents if there fighting there fellow brothers as shown before the heresy, Sang has a dark side which he never hesitated to attack Horus at all once he came face to face on the battle barge thus leading me to believe he would never hesitate in a one on one fight to the death even they weren't traitors. Horus I threw in there cause he has knowglde of all his brothers strengths and weakness, knows what makes em tick.

And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

Durza wrote:And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

And it's pre-Heresy? Sanguinius wins.

There is only two possible outcomes and of course I can say Horus wins or Sang wins but then someone will give me why im wrong and so on and so forth. I was just stating the Primarchs who I thought it would be narrowed down to(regardless of an actually torney order), as far as any of us being able to prove who actually would win as stated earlier its pretty pointless.

Void__Dragon wrote:"When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty"

I can't help but notice that this is completely contradictory to Lion El'Jonson's prior characterization in the novels concerning him. The Lion was a scumbag in every sense of the word.

Well, I haven't read the novels concerning him, so I can't speak for that. Even still, I don't recall hearing that they call his loyalty and valour into question.

Of course he did.

But the idea that ADB seems to be proposing, that every Primarch is equal in combat, is not supported by anything BL or GW or has actually put out.

Well, Ferrus Manus was not stated to be particularly impressive in combat, was he? Yet he was beating Fulgrim prior to the Daemon adding its own strength to Fulgrim, but lost when they fought previously if I recall correctly (when Fulgrim tried to turn Ferrus). Curze tore pieces out of Dorn, but that was likely an unexpected event (for both), so it doesn't really count. Russ is considered a close combat fighter, but was drawing with Lion prior to Russ stopping fighting, and that would mean that Curze is also a skilled combatant for doing well against the Lion. I don't recall hearing that Magnus was a particularly impressive fighter, but he managed to fare well against Russ. Different fighting styles may do better against other ones - Russ might do better against Curze in his brawl-style fighting than the Lion did but not be so dominant in combat-style the Lion initially engaged in.

So I definately agree with what he's saying to an extent. The mindset and circumstances of the Primarchs could easily change the outcome. In a straight up fight, it may favour one Primarch most of the time (against certain opponents, at least) but not all the time. Angron, in terms of mindset, might have a bit of an advantage over most of the others because he seems like he'd be the quickest to overcome an hesitancy of fighting one of his brothers. Possibly Curze as well.

Sure, some will be more skilled in a certain form of fighting and overall hold an advantage in a certain engagement. In all of them? I don't think so. Tiers I certainly disagree with the concept with, since it implies that those at the top with always dominate in any given fighting area and situation. Curze can see in the dark. Can the other Primarchs? (Genuine question.)

For the record, I didn't find your post strongly worded.

It's already been stated in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerfull, so can we stop making these topics?

What Magnus Most Powerful Psyker (agreed) or the most powerful Primarch (don't know)? I know Horus went up against the Big E, but did he ever go "toe to toe" with one of his brothers. His power was amplified by the 4 Powers combined, yet before this was he a good at Close Combat one vs one.

He was a master strategist, a skilled tactician, a Master politican and Diplomat, above all a great leader. Has it ever been stated he was superb in Martial Combat, at the level of Russ or Sanguinius? I don't recall in the HH series a statement saying he was master dueller or Combat Master?

In Duelling category (assuming Ferus is dead) it would have to be the Lion, he would have fought Fulgrim to a standstill.

Soladrin wrote:It's already been stated in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerfull, so can we stop making these topics?

Well, despite that claim there is only one instance we know of in which Magnus fights another primarch and he lost that fight, so there is that. There is no way to make a blanket claim that any one of them will win but it is still a discussion that a large portion of this community wants to discuss, so I don't see the harm in it.

Of Course this is going to be biassed. Everyone is just going to choose the primarch of the chapter they play. FOR THE LION!

Can't honestly believe that people think Horus would win, he's an awesome all rounder sure but he's the jack of trades and master of none

mwnciboo wrote:Has it ever been stated he was superb in Martial Combat, at the level of Russ or Sanguinius? I don't recall in the HH series a statement saying he was master dueller or Combat Master?

Apparently in one of the books Corax says (or thinks) that only Horus or maybe Sanguinius could stand against Angron, so that'd suggest that he was also a superb warrior.

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

And it's pre-Heresy? Sanguinius wins.

I just meant that the post before mine is open to many variables, but what makes Sanguinius win?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Well, I haven't read the novels concerning him, so I can't speak for that. Even still, I don't recall hearing that they call his loyalty and valour into question.

Loyalty to the Emperor? Yeah sure, he's never shown to be disloyal to the Emperor, per say. But he's also shown to be an underhanded scumbag who has no loyalty or empathy with the people he is allegedly closest too, and at the end of Fallen Angels blatantly demonstrates his ruthless nature (I won't spoil the nature of what actually occurs).

Well, Ferrus Manus was not stated to be particularly impressive in combat, was he? Yet he was beating Fulgrim prior to the Daemon adding its own strength to Fulgrim, but lost when they fought previously if I recall correctly (when Fulgrim tried to turn Ferrus).

Fulgrim and Ferrus are opposites in combat. Fulgrim is refined skill and agility. Ferrus Manus is raw physical strength and endurance (He is said to be rivaled only by Vulkan in terms of physical strength among the Primarchs). The first time they fought, yes, Manus did lose, after destroying Fulgrim's sword, and knocking him on his ass, with Fulgrim being quicker to recover. In the second fight, he was winning, yes, but only due to his raw endurance, taking a massive hammer to the temple without suffering from a bad case of deadness.

Curze tore pieces out of Dorn, but that was likely an unexpected event (for both), so it doesn't really count.

I should point out that Dorn was also unarmed and unarmoured as well, clad in nothing but robes.

Russ is considered a close combat fighter, but was drawing with Lion prior to Russ stopping fighting, and that would mean that Curze is also a skilled combatant for doing well against the Lion.

Ah, but Russ and the Lion are skilled weapons-fighters, while being equal unarmed (How Russ and the Lion would stack up armed with their swords is harder to say). We can safely conclude though that Curze would be superior to Russ in a weaponless brawl.

I don't recall hearing that Magnus was a particularly impressive fighter, but he managed to fare well against Russ.

Magnus is by far the most powerful psyker of the Primarchs, and was considered a giant in physical and mental terms, and his strength of arms in the Index Astartes articles was explicitly compared to Russ'. And really, as I've said before, Magnus IMO proved decisively more powerful than Russ in their fight. "Flailing blindly" is not something that is going to work every time you do so.

Different fighting styles may do better against other ones - Russ might do better against Curze in his brawl-style fighting than the Lion did but not be so dominant in combat-style the Lion initially engaged in.

I'd actually argue that in a brawl Curze would beat Russ since the Russ was proven roughly equal to the Lion in that regard. With weapons? Harder to determine.

So I definately agree with what he's saying to an extent. The mindset and circumstances of the Primarchs could easily change the outcome. In a straight up fight, it may favour one Primarch most of the time (against certain opponents, at least) but not all the time. Angron, in terms of mindset, might have a bit of an advantage over most of the others because he seems like he'd be the quickest to overcome an hesitancy of fighting one of his brothers. Possibly Curze as well.

To an extent? Sure, the Lion vs. Curze fight showed that two Primarchs can hold the advantage in different areas of combat. But frankly, I do believe Angron, Sanguinius, Magnus, or Horus would beat most Primarchs in actual combat. Curze or Corax might be able to challenge them if they managed to sneak up on them (Though I doubt they can sneak up on Magnus, it seems fundamentally impossible), but I'm hesitant to include that because I'm not sure that's what this thread is asking, which is which of the big supermen could beat up the others in a fight.

Sure, some will be more skilled in a certain form of fighting and overall hold an advantage in a certain engagement. In all of them? I don't think so. Tiers I certainly disagree with the concept with, since it implies that those at the top with always dominate in any given fighting area and situation. Curze can see in the dark. Can the other Primarchs? (Genuine question.)

Can you think of a form of actual combat that Alpharius or Guilliman would hold the advantage against most of their Primarchs? Do note I mean combat, as in one on one, against their brothers? I think tiers can be made, since some Primarchs are shown or considered to be above the others in power. Keep in mind as well, that every Primarch you have named is to some extent focused on combat, as compared to like Guilliman, Alpharius, Lorgar (Pre-Aurelian), or Perturabo.

For the record, I didn't find your post strongly worded.

Pft, better not of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orblivion wrote:Well, despite that claim there is only one instance we know of in which Magnus fights another primarch and he lost that fight, so there is that. There is no way to make a blanket claim that any one of them will win but it is still a discussion that a large portion of this community wants to discuss, so I don't see the harm in it.

Context is everything my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mwnciboo wrote:What Magnus Most Powerful Psyker (agreed) or the most powerful Primarch (don't know)? I know Horus went up against the Big E, but did he ever go "toe to toe" with one of his brothers. His power was amplified by the 4 Powers combined, yet before this was he a good at Close Combat one vs one.

He was a master strategist, a skilled tactician, a Master politican and Diplomat, above all a great leader. Has it ever been stated he was superb in Martial Combat, at the level of Russ or Sanguinius? I don't recall in the HH series a statement saying he was master dueller or Combat Master?

In Duelling category (assuming Ferus is dead) it would have to be the Lion, he would have fought Fulgrim to a standstill.

Corax seems to think he is the Primarch with the greatest chance of beating Angron in martial combat.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Well, Ferrus Manus was not stated to be particularly impressive in combat, was he? Yet he was beating Fulgrim prior to the Daemon adding its own strength to Fulgrim, but lost when they fought previously if I recall correctly (when Fulgrim tried to turn Ferrus).

Fulgrim and Ferrus are opposites in combat. Fulgrim is refined skill and agility. Ferrus Manus is raw physical strength and endurance (He is said to be rivaled only by Vulkan in terms of physical strength among the Primarchs). The first time they fought, yes, Manus did lose, after destroying Fulgrim's sword, and knocking him on his ass, with Fulgrim being quicker to recover. In the second fight, he was winning, yes, but only due to his raw endurance, taking a massive thunder hammer to the temple without suffering from a bad case of deadness.

In their first fight, it was kind of surprising to everyone except Manus when that sword blew up, so it's not exactly a shock that Fulgrim ended up on his ass after it. Taking a thunder hammer shot to the head means he's pretty much the toughest character in the universe. (Especially considering Fulgrim killed an Avatar with a punch)

Durza wrote:In their first fight, it was kind of surprising to everyone except Manus when that sword blew up, so it's not exactly a shock that Fulgrim ended up on his ass after it. Taking a thunder hammer shot to the head means he's pretty much the toughest character in the universe. (Especially considering Fulgrim killed an Avatar with a punch)

Well yeah, I was trying to emphasize that they are on-par, yet they could not be more different in combat.

Fulgrim crushed its throat actually.

Though, I'm not sure, Vulkan survived being hit by what I'm pretty sure is a Nova Cannon, and Konrad Curze as a baby was sent plummeting through Nostramo's crust and mantle until he was near the core of the planet. He then crawled out.

That said, a Thunder Hammer (A really good one, mind you) being wielded by a Primarch would be bad news indeed.

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

And it's pre-Heresy? Sanguinius wins.

I would say so as well. The only reason Horus won was that A. Sanguinius was wounded severely from a narrow victory against one of the most powerful bloodthirsters and B. Horus was massively inflated with power from the warp.

Void__Dragon wrote:That said, a Thunder Hammer (A really good one, mind you) being wielded by a Primarch would be bad news indeed.

Some things are so good, you've just got to put them in your Signature..

Horus beats everybody.
Otherwise Angron or Sanguinus.

Void__Dragon wrote:That said, a Thunder Hammer (A really good one, mind you) being wielded by a Primarch would be bad news indeed.

A good one...like the Forge breaker or the Fist of Dorn?

I had to say Sanguinus, as not only is he described as a combat monster, but he was slightly psychic, and could naturally fly.

How about its a draw?

Most won't accept a draw.

hmmm, why not Lion and Russ fought to a Draw? A few of the combats in the HH result in a Draw or at least Combatants disengaging and fleeing.

Corax vs Lorgar on Istvaan V (Curze jumps in Corax flys off).

Russ vs Lion

Russ vs Magnus on Prospero

Vulkan & Corax escaping from the Traito Legions on Istvaan V

Fulgrim vs Ferus (1st time round)

A draw is good for Fluff as it does not write a character out of the story, plus it is a vehicle to push the story in new directions. I don't understand why Dakkanauts wouldn't accept this, there are plenty of Draws in the Canon.

Orblivion wrote:

Soladrin wrote:It's already been stated in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerfull, so can we stop making these topics?

Well, despite that claim there is only one instance we know of in which Magnus fights another primarch and he lost that fight, so there is that. There is no way to make a blanket claim that any one of them will win but it is still a discussion that a large portion of this community wants to discuss, so I don't see the harm in it.

Which he lost because: A. he was distracted and B. Was surrounded by sisters of silence.

And this topic keeps popping up every other week.

If Magnus wanted to kill Russ he wouldn't have stood a chance.

Curze is a bit of a brawler, almost kills The Lion... until he gets a sword through his spine....

I think we can all agree that Lorgar wouldn't be the victor in this situation...

Angron would likely win a straight-up fight, because he is really (x2) angry.

To the OP: Horus was supposed to be the best. "The brightest star" and all that.

Where does this "Primarchs represent a single part of the Emperor" thing come from? Never seen it in any official stuff, but it keeps sprouting.
I mean: both The Lion and Horus were ambitious. All primarch were incredibly skilled tacticians.

Tadashi wrote:Just like the Aspects of Khaine, then.
...
Khan = mustache?
...

da001 wrote:To the OP: Horus was supposed to be the best. "The brightest star" and all that.

Where does this "Primarchs represent a single part of the Emperor" thing come from? Never seen it in any official stuff, but it keeps sprouting.

In The First Heretic a couple of Logar's trusted confidants used that rhetoric to manipulate him away from the emperor.

VTRC

Russ was the only primarch to ever beat Horus in a duel but I wouldn't then go on to say that Russ could beat every primarch.
Obviously Magnus wasn't a match for him but if he went up against guys like Sanguinius then there would be problems

Russ Mandarin wrote:Russ was the only primarch to ever beat Horus in a duel but I wouldn't then go on to say that Russ could beat every primarch.
Obviously Magnus wasn't a match for him but if he went up against guys like Sanguinius then there would be problems

Source for the first one, because that sounds like bs.

Oh, and go and read A Thousand Sons, Russ had A LOT of help, and then only won due to luck.

Russ beat Horus? Don't remember ever seeing anything like that before...

Void__Dragon wrote:
Loyalty to the Emperor? Yeah sure, he's never shown to be disloyal to the Emperor, per say. But he's also shown to be an underhanded scumbag who has no loyalty or empathy with the people he is allegedly closest too, and at the end of Fallen Angels blatantly demonstrates his ruthless nature (I won't spoil the nature of what actually occurs).

Which isn't necessarily lost in 'Savage Weapons'. He even gives a self-admitted "dishonourable blow".

Fulgrim and Ferrus are opposites in combat. Fulgrim is refined skill and agility. Ferrus Manus is raw physical strength and endurance (He is said to be rivaled only by Vulkan in terms of physical strength among the Primarchs). The first time they fought, yes, Manus did lose, after destroying Fulgrim's sword, and knocking him on his ass, with Fulgrim being quicker to recover. In the second fight, he was winning, yes, but only due to his raw endurance, taking a massive hammer to the temple without suffering from a bad case of deadness.

And against other Primarchs, one style might prove more advantageous than the others. How would Curze fare against Ferrus? Possibly not so well as against Fulgrim due to Ferrus' superior strength and metal hands.

I should point out that Dorn was also unarmed and unarmoured as well, clad in nothing but robes.

Curze presumably was as well, but yeah, that occasion doesn't help us in terms of Primarch combat (aside from between Curze and Dorn, since Dorn had lasting trauma from the incident).

Ah, but Russ and the Lion are skilled weapons-fighters, while being equal unarmed (How Russ and the Lion would stack up armed with their swords is harder to say). We can safely conclude though that Curze would be superior to Russ in a weaponless brawl.

Ah, forgot about the unarmed combat. I don't necessarily think Curze would be superior in a weaponless brawl.

Magnus is by far the most powerful psyker of the Primarchs, and was considered a giant in physical and mental terms, and his strength of arms in the Index Astartes articles was explicitly compared to Russ'. And really, as I've said before, Magnus IMO proved decisively more powerful than Russ in their fight. "Flailing blindly" is not something that is going to work every time you do so.

Didn't know about the martial aspect of his character. Regardless, it does give precedent for Primarchs having physical weaknesses that can be exploited, as well as a chance of any underdog to come back.

I'd actually argue that in a brawl Curze would beat Russ since the Russ was proven roughly equal to the Lion in that regard. With weapons? Harder to determine.

Well, against the Lion he did still have his lightning claws if I recall correctly, and had the advantage of being on top (if the Lion had tackled Curze for whatever reason, the outcome would likely have been different). That said, the weapons would themselves have a large impact on how the battle went (Curze's claws are not conducive to a duel like he and the Lion initiated with).

To an extent? Sure, the Lion vs. Curze fight showed that two Primarchs can hold the advantage in different areas of combat. But frankly, I do believe Angron, Sanguinius, Magnus, or Horus would beat most Primarchs in actual combat. Curze or Corax might be able to challenge them if they managed to sneak up on them (Though I doubt they can sneak up on Magnus, it seems fundamentally impossible), but I'm hesitant to include that because I'm not sure that's what this thread is asking, which is which of the big supermen could beat up the others in a fight.

Especially the case when different Primarchs favour different weapons. Lightning claws would not be great at the length a sword is, or vice versa. Those Primarchs may have an advantage in a duel style combat, but this thread does dictate a sector of a Hive City as an arena - suggesting it's not just a duel that has to be settled in one fight. In smaller quarters, I'd actually argue that the lightning claws of Corax and Curze would probably be an advantage where they use the length of a sword or axe against their opponent (although Magnus does always have an advantage over the others with his Psychic powers, but not enough to guarantee victory in my opinion).

Can you think of a form of actual combat that Alpharius or Guilliman would hold the advantage against most of their Primarchs? Do note I mean combat, as in one on one, against their brothers? I think tiers can be made, since some Primarchs are shown or considered to be above the others in power. Keep in mind as well, that every Primarch you have named is to some extent focused on combat, as compared to like Guilliman, Alpharius, Lorgar (Pre-Aurelian), or Perturabo.

Have we ever seen them fight? I haven't read anything saying that they were conisderably worse in combat. It would also depend on whether or not Omegon is included, but even if not, when they first met Alpharius seemed to hold the advantage against Horus (admittedly Horus didn't know he was facing another Primarch, but Alpharius certainly seemed to surprise him with his speed). Pre-Aurelian Lorgar would be at a disadvantage mainly because of his mindset though. He thought that he was going to die to Corax, and accepted that fact. Corax retreated from Curze because he'd lose against two Primarchs (especially since one was well rested). Peturabo I've no idea about, and as for Gulliman, we know he lost to Daemon-possessed Fulgrim but possibly defeated Alpharius (although that duel is dodgy as evidence).

^ What were you guys referring to, about Dorn and Curze?

It's an audiobook from the HH called The Dark King. Basically, Dorn and Cruze had a disagreement over tactics and Cruze went all rage on dorn, beating him up a fair bit. not a great thing to judge Dorn on though, as I feel he was rather taken by surprise!

Castiel wrote:It's an audiobook from the HH called The Dark King. Basically, Dorn and Cruze had a disagreement over tactics and Cruze went all rage on dorn, beating him up a fair bit. not a great thing to judge Dorn on though, as I feel he was rather taken by surprise!

True. When reading your post I pictured them just casually sitting about discussing tactics then BOOM! Sucker punch.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Castiel wrote:It's an audiobook from the HH called The Dark King. Basically, Dorn and Cruze had a disagreement over tactics and Cruze went all rage on dorn, beating him up a fair bit. not a great thing to judge Dorn on though, as I feel he was rather taken by surprise!

True. When reading your post I pictured them just casually sitting about discussing tactics then BOOM! Sucker punch.

Dorn was basically telling Cruze of for doing lots of scary stuff to a world they were making compliant and then, yep, it was basically BOOM! Sucker punch.

Choosing a winner in a fight is hard because there are so many unknown variables. For example, If Angron were fighting Corax, Angron would beat the feth out of him, but if Corax had access to a jump pack, he would have a chance.
Another example, What weapons are they using? Hand to Hand? Melee only? Procure on site?
Ultimately, Horus would beat everyone, so he should be taken out of all these polls.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Which isn't necessarily lost in 'Savage Weapons'. He even gives a self-admitted "dishonourable blow".

Well the Lion is pretty fond of those. Sucker-punched Russ as well (Admittedly, Russ also started the fight with a sucker-punch).

And against other Primarchs, one style might prove more advantageous than the others. How would Curze fare against Ferrus? Possibly not so well as against Fulgrim due to Ferrus' superior strength and metal hands.

Obviously A>B>C logic doesn't work quite so well. Not sure how Curze would stack up against Manus, like Fulgrim he should be faster and more skilled.

Curze presumably was as well, but yeah, that occasion doesn't help us in terms of Primarch combat (aside from between Curze and Dorn, since Dorn had lasting trauma from the incident).

I haven't read the actual story, but from what I recall from Index Astartes, Curze opened up Dorn's chest cavity... I'd like to imagine he didn't do that with his bare hands.

Ah, forgot about the unarmed combat. I don't necessarily think Curze would be superior in a weaponless brawl.

It is difficult to say admittedly. The Lion is faster than Russ, but Russ was described as physically stronger, so choking him out may not work so well (Interestingly Russ is also described in some material as quite large for a Primarch, not to the extent of Magnus, but perhaps on Ferrus' level in that regard).

Didn't know about the martial aspect of his character. Regardless, it does give precedent for Primarchs having physical weaknesses that can be exploited, as well as a chance of any underdog to come back.

He's no Angron or Sanguinius, but he's no pushover in that regard.

And yes, Magnus does have an admittedly big physical weakness, in regards to his eye.

Well, against the Lion he did still have his lightning claws if I recall correctly, and had the advantage of being on top (if the Lion had tackled Curze for whatever reason, the outcome would likely have been different). That said, the weapons would themselves have a large impact on how the battle went (Curze's claws are not conducive to a duel like he and the Lion initiated with).

I was under the impression that Curze was basically strangling him (I have yet to read the story I admit), and didn't ABD admit in the quote you provided that Curze was superior in a brawl? And yeah, that's also true, the Lion does have the advantage in weaponry one on one, some Primarchs do wield weapons that provide greater reach (Manus' hammer, Magnus' extendable staff/halberd, etc.).

Especially the case when different Primarchs favour different weapons. Lightning claws would not be great at the length a sword is, or vice versa. Those Primarchs may have an advantage in a duel style combat, but this thread does dictate a sector of a Hive City as an arena - suggesting it's not just a duel that has to be settled in one fight. In smaller quarters, I'd actually argue that the lightning claws of Corax and Curze would probably be an advantage where they use the length of a sword or axe against their opponent (although Magnus does always have an advantage over the others with his Psychic powers, but not enough to guarantee victory in my opinion).

Of course lightning claws would be better in that case, they're ninjas, yo.

And I don't know, personally, I'd say Magnus is almost definitely the strongest, possessing a great amount of physical might and prowess, backed up by psychic power second only to the Emperor's. Magnus held a decisive advantage against Russ (And his wolves... And the entire Space Wolves legion) while preparing a spell meant to transport millions of people to the Eye of Terror. Now, one case where his psychic might could be rendered null in void is if a fight with Angron or Sanguinius started out with Magnus very close to them, but overall, I'd bet on Magnus, personally.

Also, I feel like I should mention that Magnus has the most versatile melee weapon here, having a sword that also extends into a staff/polearm.

Have we ever seen them fight? I haven't read anything saying that they were conisderably worse in combat. It would also depend on whether or not Omegon is included, but even if not, when they first met Alpharius seemed to hold the advantage against Horus (admittedly Horus didn't know he was facing another Primarch, but Alpharius certainly seemed to surprise him with his speed). Pre-Aurelian Lorgar would be at a disadvantage mainly because of his mindset though. He thought that he was going to die to Corax, and accepted that fact. Corax retreated from Curze because he'd lose against two Primarchs (especially since one was well rested). Peturabo I've no idea about, and as for Gulliman, we know he lost to Daemon-possessed Fulgrim but possibly defeated Alpharius (although that duel is dodgy as evidence).

I was not aware Alpharius actually fought Horus, when was this?

Well, pre-Aurelian Lorgar was also described as physically weaker than Corax (Corax in Fulgrim is actually described as a smallish Primarch, though admittedly he was being compared to Vulkan and Manus), who was in turn shown to be physically weaker than Curze. But yeah, Lorgar in Aurelian is apparently quite the badass. I can only hope he bulked up, he really tried my patients when his torso was described as "androgynously slender".

Perturabo appears to be possibly the least physically active Primarch. He's a strategist and a schemer, he didn't even entertain the notion of fighting Dorn personally when he made Dorn look like an idiot. He just appears to disdain physical combat (Compared to other Primarchs, I mean).

Guilliman was knocked on his ass and visibly intimidated by Lorgar, if only briefly. That's kind of lame, yo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Russ Mandarin wrote:Russ was the only primarch to ever beat Horus in a duel but I wouldn't then go on to say that Russ could beat every primarch.
Obviously Magnus wasn't a match for him but if he went up against guys like Sanguinius then there would be problems

I won't bother answering the second part because I've done so so many times I should just start quoting myself...

But on the first part, seriously, when did this happen? When did Russ beat Horus in a duel? The closest I've ever gotten to a source was when someone told me it was in Index Astartes, cue my surprise when I read Index Astartes and... It wasn't.

Leonus Cohol wrote:Choosing a winner in a fight is hard because there are so many unknown variables. For example, If Angron were fighting Corax, Angron would beat the feth out of him, but if Corax had access to a jump pack, he would have a chance.
Another example, What weapons are they using? Hand to Hand? Melee only? Procure on site?
Ultimately, Horus would beat everyone, so he should be taken out of all these polls.

Horus would be the first to die. All that tension about him becoming warmaster, when others believe it should be them. Pent up rage=him dying. Also, there is no reason to believe his combat ability was any better than any of his brothers.

And for the purposes of this debate, I believe we are assuming them using their favourite weapons/loadout.

Leonus Cohol wrote:Choosing a winner in a fight is hard because there are so many unknown variables. For example, If Angron were fighting Corax, Angron would beat the feth out of him, but if Corax had access to a jump pack, he would have a chance.
Another example, What weapons are they using? Hand to Hand? Melee only? Procure on site?
Ultimately, Horus would beat everyone, so he should be taken out of all these polls.

I assume that they all fight in top condition with their preferred wargear.

Since it'd be FFA, i assume either Magnus, Russ or Guilliman to lose first, for obvious reasons (Russ'd just charge the one of those that is closest. who would win... unsure)

im2randomghgh wrote:^ What were you guys referring to, about Dorn and Curze?

The 'Dark King' and 'Lightning Tower' short stories. Dorn confronts Curze over his brutal tactics, and then later Fulgrim tells Dorn that Curze confided in him his visions of war between Astartes and the Emperors legacy in flames. Curze attacks Dorn while in a trance or something (he has no memory of it, only from when he's squatted on top of Dorn). He literally tears open Dorns flesh.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Obviously A>B>C logic doesn't work quite so well. Not sure how Curze would stack up against Manus, like Fulgrim he should be faster and more skilled.

Maybe, but Curze does not have a dueling weapon, and Manus has superior strength in case Curze tackles him.

I haven't read the actual story, but from what I recall from Index Astartes, Curze opened up Dorn's chest cavity... I'd like to imagine he didn't do that with his bare hands.

It says "raising his hands, balled into fists. Blood dripped from his fingertips", which suggests to me that he was barehanded (although it does not necessarily exclude other possibilities).

I was under the impression that Curze was basically strangling him (I have yet to read the story I admit), and didn't ABD admit in the quote you provided that Curze was superior in a brawl? And yeah, that's also true, the Lion does have the advantage in weaponry one on one, some Primarchs do wield weapons that provide greater reach (Manus' hammer, Magnus' extendable staff/halberd, etc.).

He was, true, so maybe he didn't use the lightning claws (other than to catch the Lions sword). It seemed to me that A-B-D was stating that he held a temporary advantage but that his victory was not assured - the Lion was still fighting back, afterall.

Now, one case where his psychic might could be rendered null in void is if a fight with Angron or Sanguinius started out with Magnus very close to them, but overall, I'd bet on Magnus, personally.

Fair enough.

Also, I feel like I should mention that Magnus has the most versatile melee weapon here, having a sword that also extends into a staff/polearm.

Very useful.

I was not aware Alpharius actually fought Horus, when was this?

Index Astartes IV, when Alpharius is first found (the 'man' is Alpharius). "Somehow, even at such close range, the man sidestepped fast enough that the bolt shell only grazed his temple and exploded against the bulkhead behind. As the man charged forwards, a second shot slammed into his shoulder, but still he did not slow. More shots were fired by guards and bridge officers as well as Horus. The man staggered under multiple impacts, but incredibly came on through the firestorm to launch himself at the Luna Wolves Priamrch. Then at the last instant, with his hands inches from Horus's throat, the man stopped."

It's not much of a fight, but Alpharius does appear at the end to have an advantage in position. It also states that he looks almost a match for Horus.

Well, pre-Aurelian Lorgar was also described as physically weaker than Corax (Corax in Fulgrim is actually described as a smallish Primarch, though admittedly he was being compared to Vulkan and Manus), who was in turn shown to be physically weaker than Curze. But yeah, Lorgar in Aurelian is apparently quite the badass. I can only hope he bulked up, he really tried my patients when his torso was described as "androgynously slender".

Huh, interesting. When was Corax shown to be weaker than Curze?

Perturabo appears to be possibly the least physically active Primarch. He's a strategist and a schemer, he didn't even entertain the notion of fighting Dorn personally when he made Dorn look like an idiot. He just appears to disdain physical combat (Compared to other Primarchs, I mean).

Possibly, but I recall reading about how his Legion learned to love the fighting after the seige. They fight with the feoricity of the World Eaters and Blood Angels or something like that.

Guilliman was knocked on his ass and visibly intimidated by Lorgar, if only briefly. That's kind of lame, yo.

He's also unlikely to actually want to fight his brother in that situation.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:Russ was the only primarch to ever beat Horus in a duel but I wouldn't then go on to say that Russ could beat every primarch.
Obviously Magnus wasn't a match for him but if he went up against guys like Sanguinius then there would be problems

I won't bother answering the second part because I've done so so many times I should just start quoting myself...

But on the first part, seriously, when did this happen? When did Russ beat Horus in a duel? The closest I've ever gotten to a source was when someone told me it was in Index Astartes, cue my surprise when I read Index Astartes and... It wasn't.

hmmm I'm certain it originates from the Space Wolf series
Wolf's honor
13th company told a story about how Horus and Russ came to blows and the Emperor had to pull Russ off of Horus which then caused them to come to blows again.

I think you're going to have to give a quote on that one.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Maybe, but Curze does not have a dueling weapon, and Manus has superior strength in case Curze tackles him.

True enough, but he might not need to, in the Lion he faced an opponent whose speed was similar to his, and was a very skilled swordsman regardless. But yeah, regarding Corax vs. Manus, all we really can do is speculate.

It says "raising his hands, balled into fists. Blood dripped from his fingertips", which suggests to me that he was barehanded (although it does not necessarily exclude other possibilities).

Weird. So I guess he punched through Dorn's chest.

He was, true, so maybe he didn't use the lightning claws (other than to catch the Lions sword). It seemed to me that A-B-D was stating that he held a temporary advantage but that his victory was not assured - the Lion was still fighting back, afterall.

But he was notably failing, was he not?

Fair enough.

Very useful.

You're damn right.

Index Astartes IV, when Alpharius is first found (the 'man' is Alpharius). "Somehow, even at such close range, the man sidestepped fast enough that the bolt shell only grazed his temple and exploded against the bulkhead behind. As the man charged forwards, a second shot slammed into his shoulder, but still he did not slow. More shots were fired by guards and bridge officers as well as Horus. The man staggered under multiple impacts, but incredibly came on through the firestorm to launch himself at the Luna Wolves Priamrch. Then at the last instant, with his hands inches from Horus's throat, the man stopped."

It's not much of a fight, but Alpharius does appear at the end to have an advantage in position. It also states that he looks almost a match for Horus.

Horus also started laughing after this occurred, it doesn't seem like he had any intention to fight him himself.

Huh, interesting. When was Corax shown to be weaker than Curze?

"The claw fell, and struck opposing metal. Corax looked to meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence. Where the Raven Guard primarch’s features were fierce with effort, the other face wore a grin. It was a smile both taut and mirthless – a dead man’s smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor mortis."

Corax was unable to stop Curze from raising his claw in defense, and Corax was strained with effort, Curze manic.

Possibly, but I recall reading about how his Legion learned to love the fighting after the seige. They fight with the feoricity of the World Eaters and Blood Angels or something like that.

gak you're right, that's in their entry on Index Astartes. Though it does say that they only do so when necessary and never longer than they must, when they have to take a key point.

With Perturabo it is admittedly hard to say. Dude needs more exposure man, fo rell.

He's also unlikely to actually want to fight his brother in that situation.

Perhaps but Lorgar closing a signifigant gap and managing this showcases a relative lack of reaction-time on Guilliman's part. And I'm not sure Guilliman would be unwilling to fight a brother on principal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Russ Mandarin wrote:hmmm I'm certain it originates from the Space Wolf series
Wolf's honor
13th company told a story about how Horus and Russ came to blows and the Emperor had to pull Russ off of Horus which then caused them to come to blows again.

Got a quote? Or maybe even a page number/chapter number for someone with the book to confirm?

Void__Dragon wrote:
True enough, but he might not need to, in the Lion he faced an opponent whose speed was similar to his, and was a very skilled swordsman regardless. But yeah, regarding Corax vs. Manus, all we really can do is speculate.

Fair enough.

Weird. So I guess he punched through Dorn's chest.

I think it was more clawed through Dorn's chest, myself.

Oh, in 'The Dark King', it says that Curze "clawed them with his bare hands and teeth" (regarding Dorn's wounds').

But he was notably failing, was he not?

He was, but he might have managed to regain the upper hand, or at least force a stalemate, similar to how Curze managed to turn around the fight. At the end, neither Primarch was capable of resisting their own Marines physically.

Horus also started laughing after this occurred, it doesn't seem like he had any intention to fight him himself.

Horus only started laughing after he recognised Alpharius as his brother (when Alpharius had his hands inches from Horus' throat). He was serious up until that moment.

Corax was unable to stop Curze from raising his claw in defense, and Corax was strained with effort, Curze manic.

Fair enough, although one could argue that it was at least partially due Corax having just exerted himself in defeating another Primarch. Curze also has a tendency to grin alot, even when he is losing (he does it against the Lion in 'Savage Weapons' as well.

gak you're right, that's in their entry on Index Astartes. Though it does say that they only do so when necessary and never longer than they must, when they have to take a key point.

With Perturabo it is admittedly hard to say. Dude needs more exposure man, fo rell.

Although they did end up revelling in it, although it's hard to say whether or not Perturabo himself shared that satisfaction.

Too right he does. It'll be interesting to see his side of things and whether or not there's much to back up his bitterness.

Perhaps but Lorgar closing a signifigant gap and managing this showcases a relative lack of reaction-time on Guilliman's part. And I'm not sure Guilliman would be unwilling to fight a brother on principal.

True enough.

Leonus Cohol wrote:Choosing a winner in a fight is hard because there are so many unknown variables. For example, If Angron were fighting Corax, Angron would beat the feth out of him, but if Corax had access to a jump pack, he would have a chance.
Another example, What weapons are they using? Hand to Hand? Melee only? Procure on site?
Ultimately, Horus would beat everyone, so he should be taken out of all these polls.

#Procure on site?

huh? Are you saying that Lorgar with a Credit card, buys a Land Raider would just "run-over" Horus? So if we said, remove all armour, weapons, and it was a straight up "Naked Cage fight" who would win? (I think this might be a better premise), however....Well even naked, Magnus would warp your mind, Sanguinus would fly round the ceiling and the Russ would go Feral and try to bite your neck...(Fenton!! Fenton!!! Jesus Christ)...

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:I think it was more clawed through Dorn's chest, myself.

Primarch fingernails are deadly.

He was, but he might have managed to regain the upper hand, or at least force a stalemate, similar to how Curze managed to turn around the fight. At the end, neither Primarch was capable of resisting their own Marines physically.

Wasn't Curze stabbed in the spine with a power sword?

Horus only started laughing after he recognised Alpharius as his brother (when Alpharius had his hands inches from Horus' throat). He was serious up until that moment.

Ah but they weren't physically battling either, did Horus not just order his men to shoot at Alpharius? Alpharius being able to dodge bolter-fire isn't out of the ordinary, normal Marines have managed this feat (Lucius the Eternal in particular seems quite skilled at dodging incoming gunfire).

Fair enough, although one could argue that it was at least partially due Corax having just exerted himself in defeating another Primarch. Curze also has a tendency to grin alot, even when he is losing (he does it against the Lion in 'Savage Weapons' as well.

Perhaps. Lorgar did manage to do better against Corax than I expected him to. Though, Primarchs have nigh-inexhaustible stamina, not sure a relatively short fight like that would tax Corax. And true, I'm actually now leaning towards Curze, in his more manic persona, having a degree of enhanced strength due to lack of mental inhibitions.

Although they did end up revelling in it, although it's hard to say whether or not Perturabo himself shared that satisfaction.

Too right he does. It'll be interesting to see his side of things and whether or not there's much to back up his bitterness.

Yeah, I can't recall Perturabo ever even entering battle himself, though I can only assume that hammer wasn't for show.

Indeed, Perturabo is one of my favorite Primarchs, since I think that a lot of his bitterness was justified, but also that much of it was misplaced and that, despite perceived wrongdoings committed against him and his Legion, they are among the most sinister Legion out there, so the question of how justified he is in his anger comes up. Plus he's also the greatest mortal troll in the galaxy, making both Dorn and the Lion, two Primarchs renowned for their analytical minds, look like idiots.

@ Void-Dragon, as Regards Perturabo do you mean sinister, in the modern conventional sense (e.g Evil) or do mean Unfortunate; disastrous; unfavorable in the traditional, left-hand sense?

Void__Dragon wrote:
Primarch fingernails are deadly.

'The Dark King' states that Curze "clawed them with his bare hands and teeth" with regards to the wounds he had inflicted on Dorn, so apparently so.

Wasn't Curze stabbed in the spine with a power sword?

Yes, but he still wasn't too hot before that.

Horus only started laughing after he recognised Alpharius as his brother (when Alpharius had his hands inches from Horus' throat). He was serious up until that moment.

Ah but they weren't physically battling either, did Horus not just order his men to shoot at Alpharius? Alpharius being able to dodge bolter-fire isn't out of the ordinary, normal Marines have managed this feat (Lucius the Eternal in particular seems quite skilled at dodging incoming gunfire).

No, they didn't battle physically other than Horus shooting at Alpharius (and killing his men). It does say that "somehow" he sidestepped the shot (although other bolter-shells hit him). Still, Horus 'letting' an enemy get that close to his throat is a bit of a risk, although he may have been overconfident or had a plan.

Perhaps. Lorgar did manage to do better against Corax than I expected him to. Though, Primarchs have nigh-inexhaustible stamina, not sure a relatively short fight like that would tax Corax. And true, I'm actually now leaning towards Curze, in his more manic persona, having a degree of enhanced strength due to lack of mental inhibitions.

Relatively short but presumably requiring a lot of effort (not to mention having had to fight his way through to Lorgar). As regards to Curze, that is very possible.

Yeah, I can't recall Perturabo ever even entering battle himself, though I can only assume that hammer wasn't for show.

Indeed, Perturabo is one of my favorite Primarchs, since I think that a lot of his bitterness was justified, but also that much of it was misplaced and that, despite perceived wrongdoings committed against him and his Legion, they are among the most sinister Legion out there, so the question of how justified he is in his anger comes up. Plus he's also the greatest mortal troll in the galaxy, making both Dorn and the Lion, two Primarchs renowned for their analytical minds, look like idiots.

Me neither. I'd expect he did at least sometimes, though (as opposed to, say, Angron, who presumably always did).

Let's hope it's explored well.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Choosing a winner in a fight is hard because there are so many unknown variables. For example, If Angron were fighting Corax, Angron would beat the feth out of him, but if Corax had access to a jump pack, he would have a chance.
Another example, What weapons are they using? Hand to Hand? Melee only? Procure on site?
Ultimately, Horus would beat everyone, so he should be taken out of all these polls.

Horus would be the first to die. All that tension about him becoming warmaster, when others believe it should be them. Pent up rage=him dying. Also, there is no reason to believe his combat ability was any better than any of his brothers.

And for the purposes of this debate, I believe we are assuming them using their favourite weapons/loadout.

Horus was more powerful than all of the Primarchs, the only people who could possibly beat him were Angron and Sanguinus

mwnciboo wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:Choosing a winner in a fight is hard because there are so many unknown variables. For example, If Angron were fighting Corax, Angron would beat the feth out of him, but if Corax had access to a jump pack, he would have a chance.
Another example, What weapons are they using? Hand to Hand? Melee only? Procure on site?
Ultimately, Horus would beat everyone, so he should be taken out of all these polls.

#Procure on site?

huh? Are you saying that Lorgar with a Credit card, buys a Land Raider would just "run-over" Horus? So if we said, remove all armour, weapons, and it was a straight up "Naked Cage fight" who would win? (I think this might be a better premise), however....Well even naked, Magnus would warp your mind, Sanguinus would fly round the ceiling and the Russ would go Feral and try to bite your neck...(Fenton!! Fenton!!! Jesus Christ)...

Procure on site as in use what you find.
Maybe not a naked cage fight but yeah, that would be better but really one sided for most, Angron, Sanguinus, Horus, and Russ would be on top.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:'The Dark King' states that Curze "clawed them with his bare hands and teeth" with regards to the wounds he had inflicted on Dorn, so apparently so.

Epic catfight.

Yes, but he still wasn't too hot before that.

Well the fight did start with a stab to the stomach.

No, they didn't battle physically other than Horus shooting at Alpharius (and killing his men). It does say that "somehow" he sidestepped the shot (although other bolter-shells hit him). Still, Horus 'letting' an enemy get that close to his throat is a bit of a risk, although he may have been overconfident or had a plan.

Overconfidence/arrogance is Horus' fatal flaw.

Relatively short but presumably requiring a lot of effort (not to mention having had to fight his way through to Lorgar). As regards to Curze, that is very possible.

Actually Lorgar initiated the fight. And killing Marines is not physically taxing for a Primarch. Curze even acknowledges this, calling Lorgar a loser and telling him to go beat up more Marines with his little hammer and leave the manly work to the manly men. Though yeah, Lorgar didn't go down like a chump like I was led to believe.

Me neither. I'd expect he did at least sometimes, though (as opposed to, say, Angron, who presumably always did).

Let's hope it's explored well.

Probably so. Though this sadly is all speculation, until Perturabo himself is elaborated on.

Indeed, am hoping ABD, Abnett, or McNeil handle that one. Actually, hasn't McNeil done Iron Warriors work before, that was pretty well-regarded?

Yeah. McNeil's done a few bits and pieces concerning the Iron Warriors, specifically the Warsmith Honsou who features as main villain in both Dead Sky, Black Sun, and Chapter's Due, as well as a few short stories. There's an omnibus of all the stuff released in the next few months IIRC. Great character, I've skimmed both the the Ultramarine's books just for the Iron Warrior's POV sections. And of course, there's the simply epic Storm of Iron, where Honsou is the protagonist.

I'll have to be sure to check all of that out.

Angron would win a fight. Not Horus.
Horus is an all-rounder, capable of defeating Guilliman in combat and Angron in strategy, but not the other way round.
He could beat any primarch if he chooses the subject of the contest; but now doesn't.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Angron would win a fight. Not Horus.
Horus is an all-rounder, capable of defeating Guilliman in combat and Angron in strategy, but not the other way round.
He could beat any primarch if he chooses the subject of the contest; but now doesn't.

Except maybe Sanguinius..but its debateable. Maybe a calmness contest?

Sanguinius would win. He would fly into the air and do a shoulder dive from about a mile high.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Sanguinius would win. He would fly into the air and do a shoulder dive from about a mile high.

And at the last moment the other Primarch sidesteps.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Angron would win a fight. Not Horus.
Horus is an all-rounder, capable of defeating Guilliman in combat and Angron in strategy, but not the other way round.
He could beat any primarch if he chooses the subject of the contest; but now doesn't.

No, it's stated in the audio book Raven's Flight that Horus and maybe Sanguinius were the only Primarchs who could defeat Angron.

LoneLictor wrote:Magnus wouldn't win because the other Primarchs have genetic psychic resistance. His powers wouldn't be quite as strong against them. Sure, they'd still hurt, but I doubt he could instantly snap their necks or crush their skulls.

While his powers mightn't be as effective against primarchs as they usually would they should still give him the edge since physically they are all probably equalish.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Magnus wouldn't win because the other Primarchs have genetic psychic resistance. His powers wouldn't be quite as strong against them. Sure, they'd still hurt, but I doubt he could instantly snap their necks or crush their skulls.

While his powers mightn't be as effective against primarchs as they usually would they should still give him the edge since physically they are all probably equalish.

Most probably. But keep in mind that Magnus could fight Russ (one of the more combat-oriented Primarchs) on equal terms, and Russ only defeated Magnus with a lucky blow to his eye. If that desperate strike failed to hit the eye, Magnus could have killed Russ then and there, as one of Russ' hearts had already been pierced Magnus' attacks. Then again, Magnus could just have told Russ that he'd been tricked by Horus into attacking the Thousand Sons, but that's not the point of this thread...

YOUR ALL IDIOTS (apart from you who chose magnus) magnus will take one look at the planet/hive and turn it to dust with a flick of his finger or turn all the other primarches into bunny rabbits you fools

THE WINNER IS MAGNUS THE RED

Rage?

Looks like it. The heavy use of capitals and calling those who disagree with his point of view "idiots" are both syptoms of rage.

@ VoidDragon, the part about curze stopping Corax's claw.

Corax had just defeated another primarch in a duel, and he owuld be tired, have damaged armour and his claws were pretty badly mauled.

NONE WOULD WIN the emperor would come and wup their primarch arses

One thing to consider would be whether Fulgrim's psychic shield is unique or possessed by every primarch. It would have an impact on how effective Magnus would be.

I see the the Emperor like Dumbeldor in Harry Potter, he saw the road that lay ahead and knew what must happen to secure the foothold for Mankind. He has been far more powerful in death (or throned) then he would have been alive. His sacrifice has protected the IOM for 10,000 years, no Daemon god can claim comparison to that. 4 gods (that i know of, and only one was needed to wipe out the Eldar just about) and they have not brought down the IOM.

With that said he should be taken out of the running for this thread IMO, due to the fact that he may die in a fight vs a Primarch, but i bet in his death that Primarch will suffer pain beyond words at the Big Es entertainment.

Well, in a naked cage fight, I dare say Ferrus would win (Mr. Thunder Hammer Hands?) though that Fulgrim would be a slimy foe naked, getting all homoerotic on the other guys and making the manly men feel very uncomfortable.

I do think people are underestimating Alpharius. He dodged a bolter shell at point blank range fired by none other than Horus himself. Surely Horus wasn't just being a dick and missing on purpose, his trusted subordinates had just been utterly humiliated by first having their ship crippled and then boarded by people we can assume to have been cruising about in space shuttles. I can't really think of anyone else dodging a bolt shell from such close range and managing to end up at the firer's throat after taking a volley from the entire staff of a battle barge's bridge. Sure, if it was another primarch like Vulkan or Ferrus they would of taken the bolt to the skull like a boss just to prove they could but the dodge is impressive. He also had the clear head to sacrifice some of his martial honor to spank Robot Gorillaman like a newborn by letting him think he'd killed the primarch himself.

I still ascribe to all the Primarches being roughly equal. They've only ever been bested by circumstance.

And Russ is catching way too much flak for the Magnus fight which he undoubtedly won. Ooh boo Magnus wasn't paying attention...Well, guess what? That's idiotic and he deserved to lose because of it. Flailing is a legitimate tactic (Of desperation) it just shows that your opponent is a dumb**** for not deflecting clumsy blows aimed to the face. Magnus wasn't a fighter and it shows when he gets taken off guard and laid low by Russ. He's not a fighter, he's a giant brute who is also an amazing psyker. It balances out. IF he was more martially oriented he could of definitely been top dog but he wasn't. But again, he wasn't only defeated by circumstance. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

And stop saying dumb stuff like Magnus would just fry their brains. He couldn't just do that. don't you think he would have when Russ was pillaging his pride and joy if he could have? Primarches have an extreme natural resistance to the warp and its power. Not to say they can't be seduced by it, just saying that they can resist its raw power.

+1 Yay Ferrus!! Finally people are starting to recognise how hardcore Ferrus Manus was.

BrainDeleted wrote:
And Russ is catching way too much flak for the Magnus fight which he undoubtedly won. Ooh boo Magnus wasn't paying attention...Well, guess what? That's idiotic and he deserved to lose because of it. Flailing is a legitimate tactic (Of desperation) it just shows that your opponent is a dumb**** for not deflecting clumsy blows aimed to the face. Magnus wasn't a fighter and it shows when he gets taken off guard and laid low by Russ. He's not a fighter, he's a giant brute who is also an amazing psyker. It balances out. IF he was more martially oriented he could of definitely been top dog but he wasn't. But again, he wasn't only defeated by circumstance. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

No I think he's catching perfectly reasonable amount of flak. Magnus wasn't concentrating on Russ, he wasn't using his full power, and lost due to luck. Sure, flailing like that is perfectly fine, but he was so successful due to chance, not skill of any sort. And this happened whilst Magnus had the upper hand. Yeah, good job Russ.

DK wrote:I see the the Emperor like Dumbeldor in Harry Potter, he saw the road that lay ahead and knew what must happen to secure the foothold for Mankind. He has been far more powerful in death (or throned) then he would have been alive. His sacrifice has protected the IOM for 10,000 years, no Daemon god can claim comparison to that. 4 gods (that i know of, and only one was needed to wipe out the Eldar just about) and they have not brought down the IOM.

With that said he should be taken out of the running for this thread IMO, due to the fact that he may die in a fight vs a Primarch, but i bet in his death that Primarch will suffer pain beyond words at the Big Es entertainment.

Dumbledore couldn't foresee anything. If the Emperor saw the road ahead, maybe he could have, say, not humilited an entire legion of religious zealots?

Why would the Chaos gods ever want to compare to that? They're only concerned with their own survival. As for the IoM, the fall of the Eldar was far longer than you might think, a slow fall from an enlightened race to a decadent and horrible orgy. And no non-Imperial fluff supports the claim that the Emperor is any way conscious. The gods aren't going to just manifest in the real world and blast the IoM, it would be cheating. Their followers are waging a siege war on a fortress hundreds of times larger than their own. Not exactly easy. And if the Emperor is so powerful, why do all those Xenos races and threats still exist?

Entertainment might be a bad word there. And he shouldn't be included because he's not a primarch.

I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART. It's not luck either...Sheesh, everyone knows go for the eye. Magnus probably shouldn't have let Russ 'flail blindly' into his darned eye. How do you do that? Arrogance? Recklessness? Sheer ineptitude? If you're going to argue that Russ didn't win on his own merit, then you're arguing that he won on Magnus' lack.

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

Darn, caught me before my edit. Check out the above.

How in the world wasn't he concentrating on Russ and not at full power? He was looming over him getting ready to deliver the coup de grace
Even before that the narration said they both brought their full primarch power to bear.



Russ being such a martially skilled individual in such precarious circumstances unleashed a wild blow that Magnus couldn't avoid, catching him in the eye.

This was a battle fought on every level: physical, mental and spiritual, with each primarch bending every ounce of their almost limitless power to the other’s destruction.

While Magnus was hurt Russ raised his giant body over his head(Magnus making no attempt to stop this) and broke him.

Ahriman cried out as he saw Magnus reel back from the Wolf King, one hand clutched to his eye as his shattered arm crackled with regenerative energies. As broken and bloodied as Leman Russ was, he was brawler enough to seize his opportunity. He barrelled into Magnus and gripped him around the waist like a wrestler, roaring as he lifted his brother’s body high above his head.

Magnus can't even get his head in the game at this point

Good job Russ you undoubtedly bested Magnus.

BrainDeleted wrote:I do think people are underestimating Alpharius. He dodged a bolter shell at point blank range fired by none other than Horus himself. Surely Horus wasn't just being a dick and missing on purpose, his trusted subordinates had just been utterly humiliated by first having their ship crippled and then boarded by people we can assume to have been cruising about in space shuttles. I can't really think of anyone else dodging a bolt shell from such close range and managing to end up at the firer's throat after taking a volley from the entire staff of a battle barge's bridge. Sure, if it was another primarch like Vulkan or Ferrus they would of taken the bolt to the skull like a boss just to prove they could but the dodge is impressive. He also had the clear head to sacrifice some of his martial honor to spank Robot Gorillaman like a newborn by letting him think he'd killed the primarch himself.

I've seen normal Marines react to bolter fire. Normal marines. It's not like Horus holding the bolter is going to make the round propel at a higher velocity. Argel Tal deflected a salvo of gunfire with his swords, moving in their path and intercepting them so they wouldn't hit Lorgar (Not sure why, I mean, a bolter isn't going to hurt a Primarch). Lucius in Galaxy in Flames bobs and weaves and avoids gunfire easily while in combat. Cherubael, a Daemonhost when not at nearly his full power, could catch bolter rounds out of the air. Hell, Eisenhorn, a human, could deflect las-bolts and other forms of gunfire, and had trouble besting even other human swordsmen on occasion. So... I'm sorry, I'm not that impressed by dodging bolter fire.

And Russ is catching way too much flak for the Magnus fight which he undoubtedly won. Ooh boo Magnus wasn't paying attention...Well, guess what? That's idiotic and he deserved to lose because of it.

You might have a point if Magnus was trying to kill Leman Russ. Sadly that is not the case, he was buying his Legion time, and fighting to save them. He had no real intention of winning the fight (Ironic, all things considered)

Flailing is a legitimate tactic (Of desperation) it just shows that your opponent is a dumb**** for not deflecting clumsy blows aimed to the face.

Right, just like bringing wolves the size of tanks to back you up when you're getting your ass kicked is a legitimate tactic. It's also not one that requires on your skill or power, and as such is irrelevant to the question posed in this thread.

Magnus wasn't a fighter and it shows when he gets taken off guard and laid low by Russ. He's not a fighter, he's a giant brute who is also an amazing psyker.

Magnus might not be a better martial combatant than Russ (Though Index Astartes seems to believe otherwise, saying their strength was equal), but he wasn't a giant brute, he was doing perfectly well against Russ in close combat.

It balances out. IF he was more martially oriented he could of definitely been top dog but he wasn't. But again, he wasn't only defeated by circumstance. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

Only Russ was by the book's admission broken and bloodied, suffering many wounds in their battle, whereas, before the wound to the eye, Magnus was relatively fine, having only a broken arm which was already healing. Any notion that Russ could have lasted a while longer is unsupported and wishful thinking.

And stop saying dumb stuff like Magnus would just fry their brains. He couldn't just do that. don't you think he would have when Russ was pillaging his pride and joy if he could have? Primarches have an extreme natural resistance to the warp and its power. Not to say they can't be seduced by it, just saying that they can resist its raw power.

I'm pretty sure I never claimed the first part nor denied the second, so won't bother answering this since I'm pretty sure this couldn't be directed my way anyway.

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART. It's not luck either...Sheesh, everyone knows go for the eye. Magnus probably shouldn't have let Russ 'flail blindly' into his darned eye. How do you do that? Arrogance? Recklessness? Sheer ineptitude? If you're going to argue that Russ didn't win on his own merit, then you're arguing that he won on Magnus' lack.

Are you really under the impression that lashing out blindly, blindly, as in you don't know where your blow is going to land, and just happening to hit Magnus' eye is some great and epic feat of martial skill? I'm not claiming Magnus is some uber martially skilled GAWD on par with Angron or Sanguinius, so it is entirely believable that a lucky blow could get through and hit Magnus' eye. Were Magnus more skilled could he of avoided it? Perhaps, but don't act like it was some great showing of incompetence on Magnus' part, or else Russ was just flaunting his own incompetence by letting Magnus punch through his heart, crack open his armour, stab through his chest and out his back, and scald and blind him, while also letting him kill the two wolves he brought to back him up against Magnus. Not even mentioning the fact that Magnus was preparing a spell at the time, while also protecting his sons from the horde of Space Wolves and Custodians.

I mean, I'm not saying Leman Russ is a pushover, not by any means, his physical might and martial ability are easily above the norm for a Primarch, but "lashing out blindly" does not equal making some skillful, intelligent, and precise attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Russ Mandarin wrote:How in the world wasn't he concentrating on Russ and not at full power? He was looming over him getting ready to deliver the coup de grace
Even before that the narration said they both brought their full primarch power to bear.

Russ being such a martially skilled individual in such precarious circumstances unleashed a wild blow that Magnus couldn't avoid, catching him in the eye.

This was a battle fought on every level: physical, mental and spiritual, with each primarch bending every ounce of their almost limitless power to the other’s destruction.

While Magnus was hurt Russ raised his giant body over his head(Magnus making no attempt to stop this) and broke him.

Ahriman cried out as he saw Magnus reel back from the Wolf King, one hand clutched to his eye as his shattered arm crackled with regenerative energies. As broken and bloodied as Leman Russ was, he was brawler enough to seize his opportunity. He barrelled into Magnus and gripped him around the waist like a wrestler, roaring as he lifted his brother’s body high above his head.

Magnus can't even get his head in the game at this point

Good job Russ you undoubtedly bested Magnus.

Good find on the first quote.

Though once more, "lashed out blindly" is not some skillful maneuver on Russ' part. Especially since before that, Magnus had Leman Russ dead to rights.

Void__Dragon wrote:So... I'm sorry, I'm not that impressed by dodging bolter fire.

Well, it's kinda the only thing we've got about Alpharius...Sigh...But the point is more along these lines: He dodged the one kill shot then took several shots to the body (This is without power armor) and was still going for the throat...Of another Primarch. That's pretty impressive. I get the feeling this all happens while they're within a good ten paces of each other too over just a handful of seconds. Ooh well, it was impressive when it was written but there's been a lot of fluff inflation since then.

Void__Dragon wrote:You might have a point if Magnus was trying to kill Leman Russ. Sadly that is not the case, he was buying his Legion time, and fighting to save them. He had no real intention of winning the fight (Ironic, all things considered)

Eh? He was trying to play patty cake? Well, he most definitely deserved to be smacked down then because that's a silly way to fight...

Wasn't Magnus chilling in his tower for the first half of the fight while Russ was getting down and dirty with the brawl anyway? Probably good to remember who was fresh and who wasn't.

Void__Dragon wrote:

It balances out. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

Only Russ was by the book's admission broken and bloodied, suffering many wounds in their battle, whereas, before the wound to the eye, Magnus was relatively fine, having only a broken arm which was already healing. Any notion that Russ could have lasted a while longer is unsupported and wishful thinking.

Err...That's not what I said? I said circumstance is what caused the Russ-Magnus fight to go how it did and that without those circumstances (Do I really need to list them?), Russ and Magnus would have fought each other to a bloody standstill. Besides, the Crimson King had his spine broken over the Wolf King's knee...So I don't think he was in much shape to continue either. In that scenario Russ didn't need to last longer, he had already won the darn fight?

I'm not trying to say 'oh but Russ is better than Magnus'...I'm just railing against the way some people are painting their fight...Some people seem to think Magnus would have definitely won except Russ 'miraculously kicked his eye out which is totally unfair and not under Russ's control at all, he's a noob'. This isn't correct, excuse the hyperbole. I just don't agree with people who think Russ was inferior to Magnus. I also don't agree with people who think Russ is far superior to Magnus.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm pretty sure I never claimed the first part nor denied the second, so won't bother answering this since I'm pretty sure this couldn't be directed my way anyway.

It's not directed at you, my post wasn't directed at anyone specific.
That bit was for the group of people that have literally said throughout the thread Magnus would win by 'turning them into chickens' or 'frying their brains' or 'blowing up the whole arena'.

Void__Dragon wrote:Are you really under the impression that lashing out blindly, blindly, as in you don't know where your blow is going to land, and just happening to hit Magnus' eye is some great and epic feat of martial skill? I'm not claiming Magnus is some uber martially skilled GAWD on par with Angron or Sanguinius, so it is entirely believable that a lucky blow could get through and hit Magnus' eye. Were Magnus more skilled could he of avoided it? Perhaps, but don't act like it was some great showing of incompetence on Magnus' part, or else Russ was just flaunting his own incompetence by letting Magnus punch through his heart, crack open his armour, stab through his chest and out his back, and scald and blind him, while also letting him kill the two wolves he brought to back him up against Magnus. Not even mentioning the fact that Magnus was preparing a spell at the time, while also protecting his sons from the horde of Space Wolves and Custodians.

I mean, I'm not saying Leman Russ is a pushover, not by any means, his physical might and martial ability are easily above the norm for a Primarch, but "lashing out blindly" does not equal making some skillful, intelligent, and precise attack.

There's a pretty distinct difference between getting punked in a stand up fight and getting punked by a guy who...Has been beat to complete . One takes a lot more incompetence than the other. Guess which? Either way, Russ showed quite a bit more endurance and will than Magnus and that's why he won in this specific scenario. Not because of random luck. I never said flailing was a brilliant tactic (Though it's somewhat ridiculous to assume Russ didn't know the general area of Magnus's face when he flailed), I just said it's a legitimate one for last ditch efforts. Magnus was pretty arrogant/incompetent/flat out dumb to think his brother was down for the count and open himself up to the age old tactic of thrashing like a fish on dry land. Isn't arrogance Magnus's tragic flaw? I guess being dumb and over excited is Leman's...

There are really three options here when considering the last minute reversal of the fight:

1) You acknowledge that Russ's 'Never Say Die' attitude and true grit as what won him the fight. After all, he did break the man's back after all he went through and never once gave up, unlike Magnus.
2) You acknowledge that Magnus had a moment of weakness of some sort and opened himself up to a clumsy, last breath attack to his darned eye and that is why he lost because he was distracted.
3) A combination of 1+2.

Don't give me luck. That's a complete cop out.

Personally, I ascribe to option 3.

I think the fight between Magnus and Russ is a really good example of the equality of Primarches when you get down to it. The most psykic oriented Primarch vs. the one of most straight forward melee Primarches alongside Angron. It seemed to me they were a pretty equal match up until the very end. I think if they fought in an empty cube with no outside interference and they were both fresh and both had their preferred war gear and no time to prepare, it would have been a draw.

Durza wrote:One thing to consider would be whether Fulgrim's psychic shield is unique or possessed by every primarch. It would have an impact on how effective Magnus would be.

I imagine they all do, otherwise a single farseer could kill every single primarch at the same time by making their blood boil.

Plus, a good number of them have their own psychic powers. But by and large, I think Magnus' main advantage, if he had any, would be using force weapons.

Though that would more or less equal the advantages the others primarchs hold, since they are each vastly superior that each and every one of their brothers in their chosen skills.

Hmm, is this preheresy horus or post? because post heresy horus will all the chaos power would reall kill em all...

To answer this thread's original question, Dorn. Because when no one's looking he CREEEEEDs a fortified castle with several legions worth of Sardaukar manning heavy wall mounted weapon.

Though if he did that they could just walk into the castle because the fourth wall would be broken

BrainDeleted wrote:Well, it's kinda the only thing we've got about Alpharius...Sigh...But the point is more along these lines: He dodged the one kill shot then took several shots to the body (This is without power armor) and was still going for the throat...Of another Primarch. That's pretty impressive. I get the feeling this all happens while they're within a good ten paces of each other too over just a handful of seconds. Ooh well, it was impressive when it was written but there's been a lot of fluff inflation since then.

It shows reaction-time and quickness, and might be argued to put him above, say, Guilliman, but nowhere near dudes like Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus, Horus, or Leman Russ.

Eh? He was trying to play patty cake? Well, he most definitely deserved to be smacked down then because that's a silly way to fight...

Wasn't Magnus chilling in his tower for the first half of the fight while Russ was getting down and dirty with the brawl anyway? Probably good to remember who was fresh and who wasn't.

You're underestimating the limits of Primarch stamina. Namely, that there effectively aren't any. Ferrus Manus fought what was probably a Necron Construct for weeks without tiring, for example. Murdering numerous Space Marines while having your own Custodian + Sisters of Silence bodyguard isn't really that physically taxing.

Actually, that brings up another point, Magnus was in the presence of Sisters of Silence while fighting Russ as well.

But that doesn't change my point, Russ was there with the explicit motive to kill Magnus, Magnus on the other hand was just stalling and didn't have any intention of leaving this fight alive (His spell to teleport his sons sacrifices him).

Err...That's not what I said? I said circumstance is what caused the Russ-Magnus fight to go how it did and that without those circumstances (Do I really need to list them?), Russ and Magnus would have fought each other to a bloody standstill. Besides, the Crimson King had his spine broken over the Wolf King's knee...So I don't think he was in much shape to continue either. In that scenario Russ didn't need to last longer, he had already won the darn fight?

You said that he wasn't only beaten by circumstance, when, well, he basically was. Why would it be a bloody standstill? Before Russ lashed out blindly and hit Magnus' eye, Russ was far more grievously injured than Magnus was. And... No, the moment Magnus' eye was hit, he was blinded, and the bulk of his psychic power was now unfocused and weakened. Granted, this does show MAgnus has a physical weakness that can be exploited, which I have admitted in this thread, but in the context of that fight? By the time that occurred, hitting Magnus' eye was nearly the only way Russ could win.

I'm not trying to say 'oh but Russ is better than Magnus'...I'm just railing against the way some people are painting their fight...Some people seem to think Magnus would have definitely won except Russ 'miraculously kicked his eye out which is totally unfair and not under Russ's control at all, he's a noob'. This isn't correct, excuse the hyperbole. I just don't agree with people who think Russ was inferior to Magnus. I also don't agree with people who think Russ is far superior to Magnus.

The "Kicked his eye out" thing is outdated fluff, and presented as the Space Wolf account of the event regardless. And if Prospero Burns has taught me anything, it's that the Space Wolves love inflated stories of how awesome they are.

Frankly, I don't just think Magnus is superior to Russ. I think he's overall the most powerful Primarch. Aurelian allegedly supports this, but I haven't read it myself, since, you know, it's not exactly easy to find.

[quote[It's not directed at you, my post wasn't directed at anyone specific.
That bit was for the group of people that have literally said throughout the thread Magnus would win by 'turning them into chickens' or 'frying their brains' or 'blowing up the whole arena'.

Alright, fundamental misunderstanding here. I was never talking about after Magnus got his eye poked out. I was always talking about BEFORE he got his eye poked out. You know, when he had Russ just where he wanted him? Heart broken and bloodied? THEN Russ hit him in the eye. That's what I am talking about. Russ hitting him in his most vulnerable part while basically hanging on by a thread. That's the determination I was talking about and the incompetence on Magnus's part. You don't get smacked straight in your 'source of power' when you've clearly got the upper hand and just need to finish. That's a darned super villain mistake. Now that you know what I'm trying to say, please reread all of my points, I'm sure they'll make more sense.

On Primarch endurance, there is clearly a limit. Vulkan reached the limit holding onto a firedrake with one hand and the edge of a cliff with the other. Also, he was considered one of the physically strongest Primarches. Yes, they can work up a sweat and get fatigued.

Basically, Magnus got punked like a super villain just about to taste some sweet, sweet victory. Hardly the most powerful Primarch as you seem to think. I mean, if he can't protect his eye against a barely standing Leman Russ who flailed in the general direction of his face...Then he's not a very competent fighter. But that's not really what he's supposed to be. He's not a melee powerhouse. Though, as the fight demonstrated, he's extremely skilled in other things which makes him the equal of his brothers in war. Not the best.

I'm on the side of equality!

Russ was on fire(hair burning and everything), had his armor cracked, 1 or 2 of his hearts punctured, and severely bleeding
and he kept fighting evenly with Magnus.
Magnus had his arm shattered and his eye slashed and he gave up and allowed Russ to take him down and then break his back.

Russ endured way more punishment over the course of the fight but he never lost focus.

Hell the whole Russ lashing out blindly is in response to Magnus hitting him with another grievous attack that should have been precursor to him finishing Russ off.

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

Russ Mandarin wrote:
Russ endured way more punishment over the course of the fight but he never lost focus.

So what?

Characters in 40k deal with that and worse all the time.

Also, to just make a point in this debate, Magnus has several titan kills to his name. I can't see Russ taking out any titans...

On the Russ-Magnus debate, I'd say Russ' victory was the same as Fulgrim's against Manus. Outside his control completely.

Remulus wrote:Hmm, is this preheresy horus or post? because post heresy horus will all the chaos power would reall kill em all...

Post Heresy Horus is an ash cloud.

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

So there's no reflexes whatsoever that would be triggered by someone grabbing your heart?

Except the death reflex?

im2randomghgh wrote:So what?

Characters in 40k deal with that and worse all the time.

Also, to just make a point in this debate, Magnus has several titan kills to his name. I can't see Russ taking out any titans...

Like what? I can't think of something worse than being mostly blinded, on fire, and having recently undergone open heart surgery.

We don't know the full battle history of every Primarch. A titan isn't really outside of any Primarch's capabilities as far as we know, they're completely ludicrous on the field of battle.

Durza wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

So there's no reflexes whatsoever that would be triggered by someone grabbing your heart?

I dare say there'd be reflexes, just not caused by grabbing a fistful of nerves.

Magnus was incredibly capable in combat too; he is a primarch after all, and all of them were brawlers that made warbosses look like Gretchin.
Russ advantage over others was the brainless devotion his warriors showed to him; when Horus rebelled some of his warriors disagreed, but if Russ would, what would his warriors do? They don't care much about the imperium now either.
Insane warriors+insane devotion= guess what.
A Primarch's resistance to psychic powers may save them from being psychically nuked by Magnus, but not simply killed.
Russ was lucky, even though luck seems to be absent in recent lore; appearantly it is now only skill.
BTW, Space wolves is quite the disappointment. I imagined them as great and heroic warriors that love a pint of mead and a good story, but what I've seen makes them look like World Eaters with bigger beards.
Me not like.

BrainDeleted wrote:Except the death reflex?

im2randomghgh wrote:So what?

Characters in 40k deal with that and worse all the time.

Also, to just make a point in this debate, Magnus has several titan kills to his name. I can't see Russ taking out any titans...

Like what? I can't think of something worse than being mostly blinded, on fire, and having recently undergone open heart surgery.

We don't know the full battle history of every Primarch. A titan isn't really outside of any Primarch's capabilities as far as we know, they're completely ludicrous on the field of battle.

What weapon, pray tell, did Russ have that could fell a titan? Running up and hitting it with a sword won't do all that much.

Well just an example off the top of my head that was worse would be Tsu'gan ripping a xenotech device that was controlling him out of his fething brain. Ripping brain>Missing one of two hearts.

Also, Vendatha, a custodian, had a full bolter clip pumped into his face, his head cut off with power swords and was impaled on a spear and IIRC he wasn't dead yet.

Didn't this titan bashing come after he was blessed by Tzeentch?

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

So there's no reflexes whatsoever that would be triggered by someone grabbing your heart?

I dare say there'd be reflexes, just not caused by grabbing a fistful of nerves.

There's nerves hardwired through your heart. They electrocute it to keep it pumping. Also, there's nerve endings everywhere. Of course, the reflex there would be caused by pain, not the nerves themselves, so you're right about that, but technically wrong that the reflexes wouldn't be triggered by him grabbing the nerves.

im2randomghgh wrote:

What weapon, pray tell, did Russ have that could fell a titan? Running up and hitting it with a sword won't do all that much.

Well just an example off the top of my head that was worse would be Tsu'gan ripping a xenotech device that was controlling him out of his fething brain. Ripping brain>Missing one of two hearts.

Also, Vendatha, a custodian, had a full bolter clip pumped into his face, his head cut off with power swords and was impaled on a spear and IIRC he wasn't dead yet.

Wazdakka managed to kill one with a bike and some hope. And a chicken can survive for a moment after losing it's head. Doesn't mean it wins the fight with the farmer afterwards. I really don't see at all how some decapitated soon to be corpse has any bearing on this conversation just because it has a pulse for a few more seconds. The point was he took all that damage THEN WON THE FIGHT AND SURVIVED.

Primarchs are designed to take that kind of punishment. Dorn survived something similar with Kurze. Kurze and Sanguinius both survived their spines being severed. Ferrus Manus took a thunder hammer weilded by another primarch to the head and barely flinched. Mortarion survived getting someone's name carved into his heart.

BrainDeleted wrote:Like what? I can't think of something worse than being mostly blinded, on fire, and having recently undergone open heart surgery.

Well... if you're male...

BrainDeleted wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

What weapon, pray tell, did Russ have that could fell a titan? Running up and hitting it with a sword won't do all that much.

Well just an example off the top of my head that was worse would be Tsu'gan ripping a xenotech device that was controlling him out of his fething brain. Ripping brain>Missing one of two hearts.

Also, Vendatha, a custodian, had a full bolter clip pumped into his face, his head cut off with power swords and was impaled on a spear and IIRC he wasn't dead yet.

Wazdakka managed to kill one with a bike and some hope. And a chicken can survive for a moment after losing it's head. Doesn't mean it wins the fight with the farmer afterwards. I really don't see at all how some decapitated soon to be corpse has any bearing on this conversation just because it has a pulse for a few more seconds. The point was he took all that damage THEN WON THE FIGHT AND SURVIVED.

Actually he didn't die until Ingethel the Ascended kinda used his blood to become a daemon Prince.

And that was Wazdakka's greatest exploit, and made him super famous. Magnus destroyed several titans. Two Emperor-class xenos equivalents, actually, at the same time. And he had said himself that he had other titan kills too. Also, before their heresy, Magnus forced a space wolves force to submit to him by threatening to destroy their ships in orbit.

So the Custode failed miserably with his head cut off? It's still besides the point........What's your point about Wazdakka? My point was if an ork can just drive a bike on through, why can't a Primarch just do basically the same thing? Void shields don't protect against man-missiles...If you're trying to say Magnus is better cause neener neener neener he killed a titan alone and unaided...I'm saying so did an Ork and we have no idea if all the Primarches haven't killed one, they prolly have to be honest. Killing a titan isn't really that cool of a thing for a Primarch to do. Primarches only get slain by other Primarches or the Emp unless they get all suicidal like Dorn and Kruze...But I guess you could say they only ended up like that because they wanted to die.

Durza: Let's please not bring the genital debate up again, please.
It's kind of my point that Russ took the damage and WON the fight. None of your other examples can say the same. Sheesh, I've cleared this up like three times now. Morty doesn't count anyway being that he's effectively immortal, his pre-daemon body would have been slain but now he's all warp stuff.

My money would be on Angron. I think he'd win due to what he is and the way he grew up, when he was a baby he was killing eldar, he had a nightmare grimdark upbringing, he was already a superhuman killing machine, and then he got even more modified to be a gladiatir. On top of that Khorne loved the way he was very brutal so even pre heresy khorne would like him. He led a huge war before the emperor found him and was an all round badass. I think he's slightly stronger than the other forcefull primarchs such as Russ and Sanguinius due to his cyber surgery so he'd be able to best those the psykers, like Magnus, would have to use physical magic instead of getting in his mind as he is so damn angry... The only Primarch's who'd be a problem are the sneaky ones....... PLUS I know it's pre heresy but Angron is the only Primarch who still occassionally kicks ass (until he was zapped into the warp) all the others are dead, or sat at the top of a towrer or going on a wild goose chase, I think this shows he was very powerfull as he still wages war Just my opinion and 1st post ever so go easy

....Why such a fail?
i created a thread that i really wanted answers to, and it didnt even get 60, including all of my own posts.
And then i create this thread, spontaneusly, and was not that important.
and it gets over two hundred replies.
Guess that's normal.

Durza wrote:Didn't this titan bashing come after he was blessed by Tzeentch?

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

So there's no reflexes whatsoever that would be triggered by someone grabbing your heart?

I dare say there'd be reflexes, just not caused by grabbing a fistful of nerves.

There's nerves hardwired through your heart. They electrocute it to keep it pumping. Also, there's nerve endings everywhere. Of course, the reflex there would be caused by pain, not the nerves themselves, so you're right about that, but technically wrong that the reflexes wouldn't be triggered by him grabbing the nerves.

Yeah. I thought you meant that by grabbing the nerves he would have caused the limbs to spasm automatically, rather than as a response to the pain.

this will never be solved...i say they make a movie about this...make it like UFC style

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnn the Red Corner, the Mightiest of Magi, the Slayer of Titans, Magnus the Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed! Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnn the Blue Corner, the Wolf King, the Space Viking, the Emperor's Drinking Champion, Leman Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuussss!

that would be awesome, UFC style fighting with 40k heros and units.

Celebrity Deathmatch with Primarchs FTW!!!

BrainDeleted wrote:So the Custode failed miserably with his head cut off? It's still besides the point........What's your point about Wazdakka? My point was if an ork can just drive a bike on through, why can't a Primarch just do basically the same thing? Void shields don't protect against man-missiles...If you're trying to say Magnus is better cause neener neener neener he killed a titan alone and unaided...I'm saying so did an Ork and we have no idea if all the Primarches haven't killed one, they prolly have to be honest. Killing a titan isn't really that cool of a thing for a Primarch to do. Primarches only get slain by other Primarches or the Emp unless they get all suicidal like Dorn and Kruze...But I guess you could say they only ended up like that because they wanted to die.

Durza: Let's please not bring the genital debate up again, please.
It's kind of my point that Russ took the damage and WON the fight. None of your other examples can say the same. Sheesh, I've cleared this up like three times now. Morty doesn't count anyway being that he's effectively immortal, his pre-daemon body would have been slain but now he's all warp stuff.

My point is that Magnus killed two Emperor-class titans at the same time, and had a history of killing titans, and hinted at having the ability to destroy ships in orbit. We have zero evidence or reason to believe russ had a history of/the ability to destroy titans. 100m tall warmachine with weaponry capable of laying waste to entire armies with impenetrable armies...or the 40k equivalent of a super hero.

And Dorn was not suicidal. He was in the mood to single handedly destroy the first black crusade in an era where the IoM was quite fragile and would have potentially lost a huge portion of it's power to said crusade.

And yet Leman Russ snapped Magnus's spine. When exactly did he destroy two Emperor Class Titans at the same time?

As has been said a hundred times already A>B and B>C ≠ A>C.

But, just for the sake of fairness, when has any Primarch lost to a titan? Oh, never? Alright. So really, the fact that Magnus has destroyed titans doesn't really mean anything other than that he's enormously powerful...Just like the rest of the boys. I'd take a Primarch over a titan any day of the week...Except Fridays! Never on a Friday.


Dorn seemed pretty suicidal to me. The fluff doesn't say: "Dorn was suicidal" but half the game is interpreting what's written. If you have any actual opinion other than Dorn doesn't afraid of anything, I'd love to hear it. That's the whole fun of these debates!

BrainDeleted wrote:And yet Leman Russ snapped Magnus's spine. When exactly did he destroy two Emperor Class Titans at the same time?

As has been said a hundred times already A>B and B>C ≠ A>C.

But, just for the sake of fairness, when has any Primarch lost to a titan? Oh, never? Alright. So really, the fact that Magnus has destroyed titans doesn't really mean anything other than that he's enormously powerful...Just like the rest of the boys. I'd take a Primarch over a titan any day of the week...Except Fridays! Never on a Friday.


Dorn seemed pretty suicidal to me. The fluff doesn't say: "Dorn was suicidal" but half the game is interpreting what's written. If you have any actual opinion other than Dorn doesn't afraid of anything, I'd love to hear it. That's the whole fun of these debates!

Primarchs usually don't have to fight titans, as they had titan support during the crusade, and because xenos titans are fairly rare, and without traitors, there would have been minimal titan-smiting.

Also, tbh I don't consider either Russ or Magnus as having won their fight. They were both horrifically damaged, and they both achieved their objectives in the fight. Magnus' objective was to buy some time then teleport him and his sons away, which he accomplished flawlessly.

Russ' objective was to make the bad man go away I'd say he succeeded.

Also, there really isn't anything suggesting Dorn had suicidal tendencies.
Anything.

Unless you'd care to show me the fluff that states/implies he is suicidal?

I do care to do just that! His extremely deep period of mourning and self harm after the Emperor's enthronement, the immense bash his ego took after the Iron Cage are some good examples. Even his resistance to the Codex Astartes is a good one...He felt like everyone blamed him for the Emperor's fate and that the Codex was aimed at him specifically. He blamed himself for not being able to fight shoulder to shoulder with the Big E when the time came. I think he would have rather had Sanguinius's fate. He put himself in the pain glove for something ridiculous like seven full days straight then bashed his Legion against Perturabo's Iron Cage as a form of self punishment...That was pretty suicidal itself, if Robot Gorillaman didn't bail him out of the Iron Cage, I think he would have gone at it until he killed himself.

I believe Dorn's attack on the Sword of Sacrilege is actually described as suicidal by Index Astartes. I'll check that one out...Either way, he was completely and totally outnumbered but he did it anyway instead of retreating to live to fight another day. Only sheer Primarch awesomeness made his sacrifice succeed.

EDIT: Nope, it says desperate, not suicidal.

BrainDeleted wrote:I do care to do just that! His extremely deep period of mourning and self harm after the Emperor's enthronement, the immense bash his ego took after the Iron Cage are some good examples. Even his resistance to the Codex Astartes is a good one...He felt like everyone blamed him for the Emperor's fate and that the Codex was aimed at him specifically. He blamed himself for not being able to fight shoulder to shoulder with the Big E when the time came. I think he would have rather had Sanguinius's fate. He put himself in the pain glove for something ridiculous like seven full days straight then bashed his Legion against Perturabo's Iron Cage as a form of self punishment...That was pretty suicidal itself, if Robot Gorillaman didn't bail him out of the Iron Cage, I think he would have gone at it until he killed himself.

I believe Dorn's attack on the Sword of Sacrilege is actually described as suicidal by Index Astartes. I'll check that one out...Either way, he was completely and totally outnumbered but he did it anyway instead of retreating to live to fight another day. Only sheer Primarch awesomeness made his sacrifice succeed.

EDIT: Nope, it says desperate, not suicidal.

So, mourning automatically means suicidal? Also, his ego wasn't set back by the Iron Cage. He felt his legion needed purifying pain, and he found it. He and his fists would have been destroyed without the Ultrasmurfs, but they would have destroyed perturabo and his warriors too.

And in case you didn't notice...like half the loyalists decided "feth the codex astartes."

And the pain glove is used for meditation.

So according to the finished post, hte popular opinion is that horus is da bomb. YAY!

im2randomghgh wrote:
He and his fists would have been destroyed without the Ultrasmurfs, but they would have destroyed perturabo and his warriors too.

Perturabo wasn't even on the planet. Dorn was willing to sacrifice himself and his Legion for a goal that he couldn't actually reach.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
He and his fists would have been destroyed without the Ultrasmurfs, but they would have destroyed perturabo and his warriors too.

Perturabo wasn't even on the planet. Dorn was willing to sacrifice himself and his Legion for a goal that he couldn't actually reach.

Lexicanum-Rogal Dorn wrote:The Imperial Fists had always been masters of siege craft, and even unprepared and at a disadvantage they fought like lions. Dorn stood as a giant in their midst, his mind clear with purpose after years of doubt and guilt. The Iron Warriors would have had to sacrifice their lives and Primarch to destroy the Imperial Fists, a price they weren't ready to pay. The arrival of the Ultramarines cut the conflict short and the Iron Warriors fled for the Eye of Terror. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures

You wanna know who'd actually win? Whoever the hell the writers felt like lol Wouldn't be the first time in 40k books some random 1 in a 1k thing happen to let a person win. For all you know some cosmic event could happen and let a grot kill all of them in one blow!

Ugh, Lexicanum...It's almost word for word Index Astartes but they've shifted stuff around just enough to ruin it.

The quote should really say, the Iron Warriors lacked the faith to make the sacrifices required to destroy the Imperial Fists utterly.
There's also the fact that Perturabo grew to enjoy the suffering he was inflicting on the Fists so much that he never gave the order for the final attack until it was too late.

Though I've never seen fluff that says Perturabo was on Sebastus IV...He certainly didn't participate in the fighting. He could have been with the Iron Warrior's fleet easily and still given the orders he did, though most of it was preplanned anyway.

BrainDeleted wrote:Ugh, Lexicanum...It's almost word for word Index Astartes but they've shifted stuff around just enough to ruin it.

The quote should really say, the Iron Warriors lacked the faith to make the sacrifices required to destroy the Imperial Fists utterly.
There's also the fact that Perturabo grew to enjoy the suffering he was inflicting on the Fists so much that he never gave the order for the final attack until it was too late.

Though I've never seen fluff that says Perturabo was on Sebastus IV...He certainly didn't participate in the fighting. He could have been with the Iron Warrior's fleet easily and still given the orders he did, though most of it was preplanned anyway.

At the same time though, it depends on the account. Imperial records say that the fists were "fighting like lions" and, well, basically the whole part I quoted, whereas the IW say the Fists were DOOOOOOOOOOOOMED like Malan'tai

The Imperial account cites lack of faith on the Iron Warrior's part as the reason (It does say word for word 'fought like lions' but that's not why they weren't ended by the Iron Warriors).
The Iron Warrior's side says Perturabo was having waaaay too much fun to end it.

It's probably both. They were having fun and didn't really want to take something terrible like 50% casualties to inflict 100% casualties on the Fists.

BrainDeleted wrote:The Imperial account cites lack of faith on the Iron Warrior's part as the reason (It does say word for word 'fought like lions' but that's not why they weren't ended by the Iron Warriors).
The Iron Warrior's side says Perturabo was having waaaay too much fun to end it.

It's probably both. They were having fun and didn't really want to take something terrible like 50% casualties to inflict 100% casualties on the Fists.

hmmmm...no.

Also, IIRC on pg. 36 of Index Astartes I: Iron Warriors it said that Perturabo directed the battle from a tower.

If he were alive at the time, Creed would be there and just CREEEEEEEEEEEEEED some titans in.

Just remember Horus was afraid of Guillium, he only wanted to face him after he had killed the emporor and the otherloyal primarchs

Pony_law wrote:Just remember Horus was afraid of Guillium, he only wanted to face him after he had killed the emporor and the otherloyal primarchs

He was scared of fighting his LEGION. Not him. guilliman was a good tactician but compared to Horus would have had his oesophagus ripped out in a 1-on-1 fight. Horus simply didnt have the resources at the time to hold his own against 100,000 ultramarines and the remainders of the space wolves legion too. He needed the fight ended quickly, which led to the tragic last fight between him and the emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, whats this CREEEED thing about? can someone explain to me?

The Son Of Russ wrote:

Pony_law wrote:Just remember Horus was afraid of Guillium, he only wanted to face him after he had killed the emporor and the otherloyal primarchs

He was scared of fighting his LEGION. Not him. guilliman was a good tactician but compared to Horus would have had his oesophagus ripped out in a 1-on-1 fight. Horus simply didnt have the resources at the time to hold his own against 100,000 ultramarines and the remainders of the space wolves legion too. He needed the fight ended quickly, which led to the tragic last fight between him and the emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, whats this CREEEED thing about? can someone explain to me?

Creed has a special rule that allows him to infiltrate anything that isn't cavalry onto the battlefield, up to and including titans.

Castiel wrote:

The Son Of Russ wrote:

Pony_law wrote:Just remember Horus was afraid of Guillium, he only wanted to face him after he had killed the emporor and the otherloyal primarchs

He was scared of fighting his LEGION. Not him. guilliman was a good tactician but compared to Horus would have had his oesophagus ripped out in a 1-on-1 fight. Horus simply didnt have the resources at the time to hold his own against 100,000 ultramarines and the remainders of the space wolves legion too. He needed the fight ended quickly, which led to the tragic last fight between him and the emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, whats this CREEEED thing about? can someone explain to me?

Creed has a special rule that allows him to infiltrate anything that isn't cavalry onto the battlefield, up to and including titans.

Wow. lol. where does the CREEEEED quote orgiinate from though?

The Son Of Russ wrote:

Castiel wrote:

The Son Of Russ wrote:

Pony_law wrote:Just remember Horus was afraid of Guillium, he only wanted to face him after he had killed the emporor and the otherloyal primarchs

He was scared of fighting his LEGION. Not him. guilliman was a good tactician but compared to Horus would have had his oesophagus ripped out in a 1-on-1 fight. Horus simply didnt have the resources at the time to hold his own against 100,000 ultramarines and the remainders of the space wolves legion too. He needed the fight ended quickly, which led to the tragic last fight between him and the emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, whats this CREEEED thing about? can someone explain to me?

Creed has a special rule that allows him to infiltrate anything that isn't cavalry onto the battlefield, up to and including titans.

Wow. lol. where does the CREEEEED quote orgiinate from though?

His rule says tactical genius, which became tacticul jeenyus on 4chan. Them 4chan started this meme.

Horus nearly did win

I voted Angron. Too many parameters, but mine would be hand to hand combat. And I think Angron was one bad dude.

Pony_law wrote:Just remember Horus was afraid of Guillium, he only wanted to face him after he had killed the emporor and the otherloyal primarchs

He didn't want to face the Ultramarines, not Guilliman.

Love the sympathy vote given to Lorgar, I'd reckon Curze could have given it a good shot though (even if I voted for Horus), Corax flew away from him on Istvaan v so he wouldn't be killed

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Love the sympathy vote given to Lorgar, I'd reckon Curze could have given it a good shot though (even if I voted for Horus), Corax flew away from him on Istvaan v so he wouldn't be killed

After just having owned another primarch in battle.