In many a discussion with my friends, all of which Warhammer 40k fans who play tabletop and read 40k novels we have recently began to notice a certain pattern in the new codexes that GW has been releasing.
I am referring to the fact that, in many of the newer codexes, the lore just doesn't seem as dark and...I think hopeless is too strong a word, but its close. The older lore was that the Imperium was always on the verge of collapse and only barely holding on. While I haven't seen anything that directly says this isn't still the case other things have me thinking.
Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......
he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)
There are more examples of this out there in various novels, but I won't go into that. In previous codexes, it just didn't seem like things where so...optimistic and there where still heroes, but not like this.
I also want to state that with the exception of Draigo, I don't actually mind the 41st millenium getting alittle brighter. I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who has noticed this change in WH40k lore.
For me the main issue has been the loss of the sense of dread/foreboding/fear rather then the dark aspect.
The setting is still grimdark, millions are sacrificed each day, war is constant, poverty is rife, live is cheap, threats abound but with each codex of late army X is now the new super threat to the Galaxy, ready and able to take on anyone who gets in their way and pound them flat.
Some of the DE stories and fluff I found just nonsense. Nids are now simply nowhere as threatening or foreboding as they once were, infact I'd say they are the least of Humanities threats right now, Chaos is teetering on comical, Crons now have a well defined and explicit purpose etc etc.
Something definetly got lost along the way.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote: Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex) Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex) Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch. The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight) The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races. The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough. Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......
he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)
All of these examples you mentioned, besides Maugan Ra and the Legion of the Damned, were created in Mat Ward codices. While they weren't necessarily his ideas (particularly the Newcrons) he was the only person who was given credit for them by GW, and sadly he will get the blame for all this from the majority of the internet. IMHO, he shouldn't be allowed to touch the lore and work exlusively on the rules, which he actually does really well.
I'd blame the loss of Grimdark on the amount of Space Marine codices coming out. The sheer number of special Space Marine characters means that each one needs to do something special to stand out, and the ones that are meant to be the best have to do the almost ridiculous to appear even more powerful.
The end result is that the enemies of the Imperium just seem weaker, and it's hard to see how their situation is so desperate with these heroes present.
Thats what confuses me about the mortarion thing he has nearly all of nurgles plagues and Lord Kaldor Draigo dosnt catch one........WTF!?!?!? I say he is a daemon and people are aloud their apinion.
When I first got into the hobby I was like "wow, a game where humans are actually losing...bad" and I thought it was really cool, the whole "its only a matter of time before we die thing".
But now that I am in the hobby it seem like the imperium is winning, and they don't have a hard time with any threat now.
For every lost battle, or huge war...they have another single person destroy a threat that would otherwise take armies. Which in turn, takes away the impact of that loss As well, these heroes don't die(we know it doen't hurt sales, just look at eldrad) but it does make for one hell of a story.
Hazard30 wrote:For every lost battle, or huge war...they have another single person destroy a threat that would otherwise take armies. Which in turn, takes away the impact of that loss As well, these heroes don't die(we know it doen't hurt sales, just look at eldrad) but it does make for one hell of a story.
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others. The idea with that is that when people play it might be some previous historic battle from when that character was still alive. However I agree with the sentiment that it should have more characters dying off.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......
Holding a gate for a day like that is pretty amazing but he is a chapter master, and specifically in a bottleneck and highly defensive position. With the lack of tactics orks generally prefer, it would be quite possible for him to pull this little stunt off.
Never heard of Maugan Ra, so I wont comment.
Mephiston, he is special, I am of the opinion he sold his soul to chaos and is actually a demon prince, but that's just me.
Sanguinor - I admit, he is kind of silly, The impression they give is that he is the psychic manifestation of the nobility of the blood angels, but yeah silly character.
Legion of the Damned have been around for a while, When I first heard of them they seemed cool, but they just don't really fit anymore, I would drop them personally.
Ghost Knights, well these come from the grey knights codex which is just crap from beginning to end. I guess you could say because all grey knights are psyckers they can have things like this, but like the sanguinor, its silly.
The new necron lore, I am divided on, I know why they made it like that, but I completely agree, the kill all life thing was way more menacing. The new lore is ok though.
Greater demons getting the beat-down, I agree here, thinking back to the demon codex, I dont even remember any greater demons actually achieving anything either, this is a good point.
Draigo, well he is obviously the reincarnation of the emperor, how else can he do all the crap they say he did in the codex. (seriously 2 worst pages of writing ever.)
All in all, you are right, humanity isn't as surrounded by darkness anymore especially with the necrons no longer on a massive genocidal purge. However, I would say they have been focusing a lot more on humanity being wiped out from within. There has been a lot more focus on possible corruption and such within the imperium making it a little fractured. Its still pretty dark, characters may not die, but a lot of the fluff focuses on the sheer levels of slaughter that happens everywhere. Perhaps instead of being dark its turned more violent?
Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
Hazard30 wrote:For every lost battle, or huge war...they have another single person destroy a threat that would otherwise take armies. Which in turn, takes away the impact of that loss As well, these heroes don't die(we know it doen't hurt sales, just look at eldrad) but it does make for one hell of a story.
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others. The idea with that is that when people play it might be some previous historic battle from when that character was still alive. However I agree with the sentiment that it should have more characters dying off.
Eldrad ain't doing so hot either.
With the change to the Necrons, the setting did become less grimdark. The Necrons are still a threat to the Imperium, but they're no longer the at the same threat level as the Tyranids. While I'm still torn on the new fluff direction for Necrons (it's more flexible, but it gets rid of some of what made them unique), I believe that the setting is better when there's only one force that's out to exterminate all life in the galaxy.
IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
Orks are fething slowed. The way they speak is the most annoying thing in the 40k canon, even more annoying when fans emulate it.
They definately should have taken a leaf out of Blizard's book and made the orks a proud, ancient warrior-people. Would make them a lot more threatening too, than just mindless savages.
Durza wrote:I'd blame the loss of Grimdark on the amount of Space Marine codices coming out. The sheer number of special Space Marine characters means that each one needs to do something special to stand out, and the ones that are meant to be the best have to do the almost ridiculous to appear even more powerful.
The end result is that the enemies of the Imperium just seem weaker, and it's hard to see how their situation is so desperate with these heroes present.
There have always been more Space Marine codexes than the other factions. This is nothing new. 2nd Edition had Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. 3rd added Black Templars and changed Ultramarines to just "Space Marines" (which makes better business sense). And all of these codexes have merely been updated as time went on. And their Special Characters have always done crazy things. If too many Space Marine codexes is the problem, then the universe has never been grimdark at all. I think the couple dozen special characters can exist and not drag down the feeling of grimdark simply because they exist. I mean, they wouldn't be special if they hadn't done anything heroic. And there's a lot of galaxy out there for them to fight in.
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IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
The setting was supposed to be grimdark, but it never actually was. You aren't supposed to take Orks seriously. Pulsa Rokkits, snotling firing Shokk Atakk Guns, armies that sometimes self destructed, Mad Maxx style spinoff game... It's Fantasy in space. Sure, they've tried to get away from that, but it's impossible in a game with Space Elves and Space Orks and Space Dwarves and Space Ogres and Space Halflings and...
If the setting has become less grimdark, then in all honesty I can only approve. The extreme despair, bitter horror and slow death the setting relies on are too much for me to suspend my empathy to enjoy.
This is why I gravitate so strongly to older material (1st and 2nd editions); in the earliest works, you could play in a dwarven biker gang with trucker caps and shotguns, traveling on through an adobe shanty town full of Mad Max style punks and thugs with mohawks and leather jackets and fishnets and steel studs. The universe was dark, and also grim in parts, but it didn't need to matter. You had your boots on the ground, living in the 41st millennium, not just mourning it while fighting a battle against an implacable foe that you know you can't win.
I don't see anything noble in fighting a futile battle. If there really is no hope, it doesn't matter if you survive to fight another day-- you're already dead, and everyone else, is, too. I have no interest in playing a dead guy.
[ cue fifty guys coming in and loudly complaining about how their favorite faction is actually winning ]
Retcon of the Necrons certainly reduced the grimdark. From a mysterious tide of silent death seeking to destroy all life on behalf of their Star Gods to divided kingdoms with differing agendas, a sense of honor, and lacking FTL travel. A perfect example is that the most powerful Necron dynasty is a "mustering threat on the imperium's Eastern Fringes". They're just localized now threat wise.
I think while the Dark Eldar and Tyranids Codex's do a good job of keeping the grimdark in 40k, the other 5th Ed Codex's have purposefully reduced it. Especially Wards, who can't have Space Marines lose.
IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
Orks are fething slowed. The way they speak is the most annoying thing in the 40k canon, even more annoying when fans emulate it.
They definately should have taken a leaf out of Blizard's book and made the orks a proud, ancient warrior-people. Would make them a lot more threatening too, than just mindless savages.
Orks are the comic relief faction. They're supposed to be silly, and the speech emphasizes this. You have super-human monks who live in a constant state of warfare, formerly omnicidal robots, still omnicidal spacebugs, dying ancients, utterly corrupt and depraved ancients, Super-human traitors, technologically competent new kids, looking to bring down the big kids on the block, and an army composed of simple men armed with the worst weapons imaginable and simple hope. With all that grim darkness a faction that is by all rights completely silly is seriously important. Even dramas have their jokes, tension can only be stretched so far. And like everything in 40k, they are hyperbolicly what they are, and what they are is silly. I would argue that Orks have become to serious as of late.
IronSnake wrote:I understand. And that makes sense, but their speech bothers me. Not their goofy ad-hoc weaponry and tactics. lol
"Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we wins, we wins. If we die, we die, and dat don't count as defeat. And if we runs fer it, then we get to come back for anuvver go!" Orky Proverb, Codex Imperialis 2nd Edition, lol.
I'll agree that sometimes the voices are a bit weird. Cockney Ork Bosses yelling "Git offa mah ship Spess Mahreen!" seems a bit... odd.
Yeah that bit was directly from Space Marine the game. Excellent game... but that part was just pure cheese. The orks would be more menacing if they were to just simply roar with the occasional EXTREMELY broken english. The fact that they have a handle on the english language always struck me as extremely odd, but to be able to throw complete perfect sentences together coupled with their weird accent just makes it cheesy.
A low gutteral growl and "off... ship!" would suffice. But meh. It is what it is.
IronSnake wrote:Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner,
Oi! Orks isn't silly ya zoggin' git! See how funny you's fink we is when you's gots your 'ead on top'uv da boss's pole!
Ok ok...
Orks are a lot more threatening in the books, so I find. They don't usually speak english in BL publications and they tend to be more nasty. There's a scene in Gunheads that mentions orks torturing human children to get their parents to do work for them.
I think the necrons were changed because their old fluff was less marketable. Their character was that they had no character. The tyranids already did that, and they did it much better. With one codex the necrons gone from being my least favourite race to a race that seriously intrigues me. Does it make them less grimdark cause they have a face now? I guess, but as long as they aren't rewritten into a reasonable, benevolent race then the damage to the drop in their grimdarkatude won't be too big. Of course, I haven't actually read the new codex...
As for an overall change in tone, I don't really see it. A handful of the specific examples the OP named were Mat Ward's stuff and I notice he likes to write about heroic individuals doing great things.
Durza wrote:I'd blame the loss of Grimdark on the amount of Space Marine codices coming out.
I'm fairly sure your jury's still out on whether or not the SM variant codices are responsible for cancer, so this doesn't exactly shock me.
I, much more rationally, blame the proliferation of Black Library novels which, while certainly good at least in some cases, pretty much require upbeat endings, as most authors want to write a series rather than a one-off. Even if not, they don't want to leave you depressed. A string of novels where the protagonists die horrible deaths at the end, always, would eventually turn most readers off.
Seaward wrote:
I, much more rationally, blame the proliferation of Black Library novels which, while certainly good at least in some cases, pretty much require upbeat endings
Which BL books have you read? Clearly you've never read 15 Hours.
Seaward wrote:
I, much more rationally, blame the proliferation of Black Library novels which, while certainly good at least in some cases, pretty much require upbeat endings
Which BL books have you read? Clearly you've never read 15 Hours.
I haven't, no.
Everything by ADB, most everything by Abnett, a fair amount of McNeill's, and of course some Sandy Mitchell.
Fluff may change in the future, it is all possible that Imperium will not be on the defensive - but offensive. But it all depends if GW continue the story.
I apologize on the behalf of my American brothers that don't have a proper appreciation for Orky speech and realize that they just want to get some bovver in and put a boot to your gob.
Joey wrote:They definately should have taken a leaf out of Blizard's book and made the orks a proud, ancient warrior-people. Would make them a lot more threatening too, than just mindless savages.
No, please, no.
First, Orks are fine as they are now. Second, 'Blizzard's book' stole blatantly from GW. It wasn't until Warcraft III when their orcs became medioeval Klingons, lifting from Ronald D. Moore and John M. Ford (those two guys allegedly "redesigned" the soviet-inspired Klingons of TOS to make them fit into TNG, giving them their warrior ethics and a coherent system of beliefs) instead.
See, WoW was already in planning shortly after Warcraft II and before Warcraft III was even released. Probably Blizzard wanted orcs to have an appeal as a potential Player Race on an RPG or MMO. Thing is, Warcraft I and II had their orcs farting, talking cockney and acting stupid.
Back on topic, I'd say the biggest damage to the grimdark was done when those 'starchild' and 'Emperor as an actual god' theories were introduced in the (otherwise fairly grimdark) 3rd ed. Isolated episodes of military prowess such as those introduced by Ward matter little when you're pointlessly struggling against extinction. If said extinction can be avoided by supernatural means the struggle ceases to be pointless, you're merely buying time until the miracle happens, the Emperor is reborn as a God in the Warp and mankind rises again. Hope, in the big picture, removes that 'impending doom' feeling.
Good thing they wrote a fair dose of uncertainty into those theories. It didn't prevent fans from taking them to the letter, though.
Agent_Tremolo wrote:Back on topic, I'd say the biggest damage to the grimdark was done when those 'starchild' and 'Emperor as an actual god' theories were introduced in the (otherwise fairly grimdark) 3rd ed. Isolated episodes of military prowess such as those introduced by Ward matter little when you're pointlessly struggling against extinction. If said extinction can be avoided by supernatural means the struggle ceases to be pointless, you're merely buying time until the miracle happens, the Emperor is reborn as a God in the Warp and mankind rises again. Hope, in the big picture, removes that 'impending doom' feeling.
Good thing they wrote a fair dose of uncertainty into those theories. It didn't prevent fans from taking them to the letter, though.
That theory's been dropped, or at least never again mentioned by GW anyway, thankfully . It's on Lexicanum and is actually the only place I really saw it, IIRC.
Seaward wrote:
I, much more rationally, blame the proliferation of Black Library novels which, while certainly good at least in some cases, pretty much require upbeat endings
Which BL books have you read? Clearly you've never read 15 Hours.
I haven't, no.
Everything by ADB, most everything by Abnett, a fair amount of McNeill's, and of course some Sandy Mitchell.
I honestly try to avoid everything else.
You've read almost everything by Abnett, and yet you say the stories end on a good note... ?
Almost every Gaunt's Ghost story ended on a gakky note. It's like "Hooray we defeated the chaos forces! Buuuut we lost half the regiment in the process. -next book- Yay we defeated the chaos forces! Buuuuuut bragg is dead. -next book- Yaaaaay we defeated the chaos forces! Buuuuut ____ is dead. -next book- Yaaaay we defeated the chaos forces! Buuuuut ____ has terminal cancer."
Same with Eisenhorn. Abnett's books are some of the most despressing, grim dark books I have ever read in any genre.
I personal like a little silliness in the fluff, I mean its all just meant to tie together the models that you see on the table top to a grander stage. The fluff in a codex is meant to be pro that army, it would be kinda silly if you lost in your own book and there are a large number of Imperium codexs...so...yeah.
To give an idea of where i am coming from through, the Caiaphas Cain series is my favorite book series.
"Grim" only works if you have something to lose, and you have something to play off of. Like hope. If you have nothing but grim and despair and utter futility it becomes self defeating and loses its impact. It's like trying to say you can have shadows in a completely dark room. 2nd Edition was good with balancing the grim and the hope, as well as adding in a dash of the humor.
If it were intended as parody that would be different, since parody is supposed to be silly. But it is only unintentionally hilarious now, because it is nothing but doom and gloom (at least going by the codexes.) So having it lighten up over time the way the novels and FFG material does is, in my mind, a good thing. It restores a balance.
IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
The setting was supposed to be grimdark, but it never actually was. You aren't supposed to take Orks seriously.
You've got it wrong. The setting was supposed to be a parody, but then it began taking itself too seriously.
Orks are the joke race of 40k they aren't supposed to be taken seriously or be grimdark.
Now the stuff with the Necrons..........well yeah that's a bit fluffy
The Eternal Warriors were dicussing the new Sisters "codex" and metioned how the acts of faith were finite, when before you got more depending on the army's size (Correct me on this one if I'm wrong, I've only been around since the new edition came out). Maybe this is representing how the Emperor is growing somehow weaker, because the most recent books say that the Tech Adepts have discovered un repairable breaks in the Golden Throne.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......
he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)
Calgar - he is a chapter master and it was a highly defensible position, so this isn't beyond the realm of possibilities and it isn't like he does this every week or something, it's a singular example of what he is capable of
Maugan Ra - so you catch on to him holding off a Tyranid invasion, but not the fact that all Phoenix Lords are effectively immortal (whoever puts on their armor after they die becomes them), or that he went into the Warp, found his original Craftworld, they weren't corrupted AND brought them safely out of the Eye of Terror? Yeah I agree he is portrayed as some kind of super-Eldar
Mephiston - never heard that bit about him, though I have read about how he overcame the Black Rage and that isn't too far fetched.
Spirit warriors (Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned and Ghost Knights) - these are a little far-fetched, but they are portrayed as, fluff wise, random occurrences. The BA have no control on the Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned pick their own fights, Ghost Knights are the only ones with some measure of reliability because they are fixed on one character, but only show up when he is desperate. They more add that sliver of hope to their respective forces.
Necrons - yeah they went from omnicidal to just threatening, yeah the Silent King and probably other overlords want to reverse the bio-transference and get flesh bodies again (which will suck for whoever they try to do that too) but they have to help the rest of the galaxy deal with the Tyranid in order to do that
Draigo - he didn't just carve the previous supreme grand masters name into Mortarion, he carved it into his heart ,which means splitting his chest cavity open, all while just being a Grand Master himself, since he just got the field promotion to Supreme Grand Master a few minutes before (even that doesn't work as it requires consensus of all Grand Masters to elect one) and now he lives in the Warp relatively unchallenged, this I don't have much of an issue with, he only did a few impressive things in the Warp and all the greater daemons decided he isn't worth their time. Plus he can't permanently get out, so he sort of falls into the sliver of hope thing the spirit warriors fall into. He is fluff wise totally ridiculously powerful but I believe he is supposed to be there as a setup for the Emperor's rebirth IFGW ever clocks the story forward.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......
he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)
Calgar - he is a chapter master and it was a highly defensible position, so this isn't beyond the realm of possibilities and it isn't like he does this every week or something, it's a singular example of what he is capable of
Maugan Ra - so you catch on to him holding off a Tyranid invasion, but not the fact that all Phoenix Lords are effectively immortal (whoever puts on their armor after they die becomes them), or that he went into the Warp, found his original Craftworld, they weren't corrupted AND brought them safely out of the Eye of Terror? Yeah I agree he is portrayed as some kind of super-Eldar
Mephiston - never heard that bit about him, though I have read about how he overcame the Black Rage and that isn't too far fetched.
Spirit warriors (Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned and Ghost Knights) - these are a little far-fetched, but they are portrayed as, fluff wise, random occurrences. The BA have no control on the Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned pick their own fights, Ghost Knights are the only ones with some measure of reliability because they are fixed on one character, but only show up when he is desperate. They more add that sliver of hope to their respective forces.
Necrons - yeah they went from omnicidal to just threatening, yeah the Silent King and probably other overlords want to reverse the bio-transference and get flesh bodies again (which will suck for whoever they try to do that too) but they have to help the rest of the galaxy deal with the Tyranid in order to do that
Draigo - he didn't just carve the previous supreme grand masters name into Mortarion, he carved it into his heart ,which means splitting his chest cavity open, all while just being a Grand Master himself, since he just got the field promotion to Supreme Grand Master a few minutes before (even that doesn't work as it requires consensus of all Grand Masters to elect one) and now he lives in the Warp relatively unchallenged, this I don't have much of an issue with, he only did a few impressive things in the Warp and all the greater daemons decided he isn't worth their time. Plus he can't permanently get out, so he sort of falls into the sliver of hope thing the spirit warriors fall into. He is fluff wise totally ridiculously powerful but I believe he is supposed to be there as a setup for the Emperor's rebirth IFGW ever clocks the story forward.
Draigo- So a simple single Supreme Grand Master grey knight best a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle, has time to rip his chest cavity open, then proceeds to carve his former master's name in it and just keeps on truckin. And this is believable? A Daemon Primarch.....who I believe its said to be in the same room the plauges he has eat away armor and flesh alike....really?
Maugan Ra- from what I have read so far just seems like there making him into a Eldar Calgar, an Eldar one man army who defines what an eldar warrior should be
Mephiston- The BA I use to love but now I would like to see him suddenly reveal he is worshiping chaos and then start a civil war within the chapter. Or he could possibly just become a reborn Sanguinious.
I think the guard are still pretty grim dark. Your given a weapon that is great by most standards, and armor that can stop a .50 cal round, but compared to the aliens and super humans it might as well be a flashlight and t shirt. And you then go and fight these, knowing your going to die, but that your death means that x more humans will continue to live. Men must die so thar Man endures.
IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
The setting was supposed to be grimdark, but it never actually was. You aren't supposed to take Orks seriously.
You've got it wrong. The setting was supposed to be a parody, but then it began taking itself too seriously.
It's was more grim and less dark in the past. Before it was gruesome and tragic and had people taking drugs and being executed and sacrificed. Now they've dropped some of the more adult content and try to make it seem 'dark' with certain characters doing 'dark' stuff.
The Realm of Chaos books are very different to the recent Grey Knights codex for instance.
So the general consensus is that because the good guys aren't getting raped on a codex-ly basis, the universe and associated fiction is silly.
Why is it that unless good guys are getting mowed down by the millions and the bad guys are always in danger of winning, then the universe or fluff is silly and/or written poorly?
I'd say the WH40k universe is STUPIDLY dark and grim. Thousands of psykers are sacrificed DAILY so that the Emperor can live. Tyranid Hive Fleets devour whole systems, Chaos demons appear and have adults eating babies and slaughtering each other. The Necrons looming in the darkness, waiting for whatever sign to begin whatever genocidal campaign.
I'd say some light and good 'ol human fist-pumping is exactly what is needed.
Frankenberry wrote:So the general consensus is that because the good guys aren't getting raped on a codex-ly basis, the universe and associated fiction is silly.
Why is it that unless good guys are getting mowed down by the millions and the bad guys are always in danger of winning, then the universe or fluff is silly and/or written poorly?
I'd say the WH40k universe is STUPIDLY dark and grim. Thousands of psykers are sacrificed DAILY so that the Emperor can live. Tyranid Hive Fleets devour whole systems, Chaos demons appear and have adults eating babies and slaughtering each other. The Necrons looming in the darkness, waiting for whatever sign to begin whatever genocidal campaign.
I'd say some light and good 'ol human fist-pumping is exactly what is needed.
I agree with this sentiment completely and wish that agreement known. Alas, I'm one of the few who thinks along these lines; going by the attitudes of some fans I've encountered, 40K's only redeeming characteristic is how no human ever wins at anything ever, deriving an almost sadistic pleasure from how hard the Imperium is failing and decrying as effete and faboyish any sign that any one billion people died slightly less nightmarishly than the previous billion. I simply have no patience for it.
Yeah, I think a setting like 40K is supposed to have some hope and victory for the "good guys" (humanity). It can still be a scary and forbidding and grim universe even if it's more or less a stalemate (like the old fluff used to suggest). I mean, even if the threat of the various Xenos is no longer at "Weregonnadie"it isn't like the Imperium becomes a fun place of flowers and happiness and freedom.
IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
Orks are fething slowed. The way they speak is the most annoying thing in the 40k canon, even more annoying when fans emulate it.
They definately should have taken a leaf out of Blizard's book and made the orks a proud, ancient warrior-people. Would make them a lot more threatening too, than just mindless savages.
God no.
I suggest you Google Blizzard copies GW and see what comes up.
Draigo- So a simple single Supreme Grand Master grey knight best a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle, has time to rip his chest cavity open, then proceeds to carve his former master's name in it and just keeps on truckin. And this is believable? A Daemon Primarch.....who I believe its said to be in the same room the plauges he has eat away armor and flesh alike....really?
Maugan Ra- from what I have read so far just seems like there making him into a Eldar Calgar, an Eldar one man army who defines what an eldar warrior should be
Mephiston- The BA I use to love but now I would like to see him suddenly reveal he is worshiping chaos and then start a civil war within the chapter. Or he could possibly just become a reborn Sanguinious.
The only believable part about Draigo for me is that he has done some impressive things while in the warp and made himself not worth the time of the Greater Daemons there. As far as him splitting a Daemon Primarchs chest open and carving a name into his heart, yeah that's just insane.
Frankenberry wrote:So the general consensus is that because the good guys aren't getting raped on a codex-ly basis, the universe and associated fiction is silly.
Why is it that unless good guys are getting mowed down by the millions and the bad guys are always in danger of winning, then the universe or fluff is silly and/or written poorly?
I'd say the WH40k universe is STUPIDLY dark and grim. Thousands of psykers are sacrificed DAILY so that the Emperor can live. Tyranid Hive Fleets devour whole systems, Chaos demons appear and have adults eating babies and slaughtering each other. The Necrons looming in the darkness, waiting for whatever sign to begin whatever genocidal campaign.
I'd say some light and good 'ol human fist-pumping is exactly what is needed.
I agree with this sentiment completely and wish that agreement known. Alas, I'm one of the few who thinks along these lines; going by the attitudes of some fans I've encountered, 40K's only redeeming characteristic is how no human ever wins at anything ever, deriving an almost sadistic pleasure from how hard the Imperium is failing and decrying as effete and faboyish any sign that any one billion people died slightly less nightmarishly than the previous billion. I simply have no patience for it.
But there is a difference between "He boldly stood his ground against the orkish onslaught that threatened to overrun his position" and "OMG HE TOTTALLY KILLED THREE AVATARS AND THEN CARVED HIS NAME INTO A PRIMARCH AND THEN WENT BACK IN TIME AND DONKEYPUNCHED HORUS WHILE IN THE GUISE OF A SIMPLE GUARDSMAN SO THE EPEROR COULD WIN AND THEY ERECTED A STATUE IN HIS NAME AND THE BLACK BELL TOLLS FOR HIM AND ALL THE OTHER SPACE MARINES LOVE HIM AND WANT TO BE HIM!!one!"
Here's an idea, how about heros who rescued people rather than just killed them by the bushel barrel? How about the marine that dragged out three of his brothers with an unexploded bolter casing next to his heart? (Heart no. 2) How about the Firewarrior who single handedly killed a Gene Stealer in CC (Actually, that's about the same as a SM worfing an Avatar, neh?) How about the guardsman who saved his unit by evacuating the flaming section of the ship that he was in who then managed to survive that? What about the commisar who killed a berserker to save a Marine? Or the one Boy who survived his trukk exploding, refused to get more "cuz e jus couldn't be bovvered" and carved open a pair of Marines?
There's a lot more to being a bad ass than just killing EVERYTHING. GW could find cooler fluff by visiting the list of CMH or VC (Congressional Medal of Honor and Victoria Cross)recipients and replacing Germans and French with Orcs and Tyranids. Some of those guys have done way cooler stuff than Draigo could, and it would be more believable and less prone to the Worfing syndrome we're seeing.
IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.
Orks are fething slowed. The way they speak is the most annoying thing in the 40k canon, even more annoying when fans emulate it.
They definately should have taken a leaf out of Blizard's book and made the orks a proud, ancient warrior-people. Would make them a lot more threatening too, than just mindless savages.
Well, if they wanted an utterly boring race of Orks, yeah.
IronSnake wrote:Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner,
Oi! Orks isn't silly ya zoggin' git! See how funny you's fink we is when you's gots your 'ead on top'uv da boss's pole!
Ok ok...
Orks are a lot more threatening in the books, so I find. They don't usually speak english in BL publications and they tend to be more nasty. There's a scene in Gunheads that mentions orks torturing human children to get their parents to do work for them.
Yep. Right before the whole slave operation is wiped off Golgotha from an Imperial ship
I personally like the Orks. Their non-grimdarkness and "broken" speech are my favorite parts of the Orks
I think the reason the universe seems much less dark,
is that each codex has so much more background in it,
and a lot of the codexes are about "good" races so people see a lot more stuff about the "good" races kicking tail and taking heads.
forruner_mercy wrote:
Yep. Right before the whole slave operation is wiped off Golgotha from an Imperial ship
I personally like the Orks. Their non-grimdarkness and "broken" speech are my favorite parts of the Orks
What? I too like the Orks but there only non-grimdark from a Out-universe perspective, in-universe they are grimdark.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, I think a setting like 40K is supposed to have some hope and victory for the "good guys" (humanity). It can still be a scary and forbidding and grim universe even if it's more or less a stalemate (like the old fluff used to suggest). I mean, even if the threat of the various Xenos is no longer at "Weregonnadie"it isn't like the Imperium becomes a fun place of flowers and happiness and freedom.
Freedom doesn't exist in 40k, one will always be a slave to something.
is that each codex has so much more background in it,
and a lot of the codexes are about "good" races so people see a lot more stuff about the "good" races kicking tail and taking heads.
To me its the fiction not the codexes unless you mean the NewCron codex which is .
Nagashek wrote:
Here's an idea, how about heros who rescued people rather than just killed them by the bushel barrel? How about the marine that dragged out three of his brothers with an unexploded bolter casing next to his heart? (Heart no. 2) How about the Firewarrior who single handedly killed a Gene Stealer in CC (Actually, that's about the same as a SM worfing an Avatar, neh?) How about the guardsman who saved his unit by evacuating the flaming section of the ship that he was in who then managed to survive that? What about the commisar who killed a berserker to save a Marine? Or the one Boy who survived his trukk exploding, refused to get more "cuz e jus couldn't be bovvered" and carved open a pair of Marines?
There's a lot more to being a bad ass than just killing EVERYTHING. GW could find cooler fluff by visiting the list of CMH or VC (Congressional Medal of Honor and Victoria Cross)recipients and replacing Germans and French with Orcs and Tyranids. Some of those guys have done way cooler stuff than Draigo could, and it would be more believable and less prone to the Worfing syndrome we're seeing.
This is exactly why as far as the vanilla marine chapters go the Salamanders are my favorite, along with just being awesome in the description and colours, they are also the only chapter in the 2nd war of Armageddon that defended the people there, not just go hunting Orks.
I think one of the main issues with the current fluff is the sense of comic book style “oneupmanship” that seems to be rampant in the current 5E setting.
In older editions, the grimdark setting was more heavily emphasised with “futility” being the underlying tone in the sense that no matter how victorious a certain faction was, their actions are ultimately futile given the galactic war rampant nature of the times.
In the current 5E setting, grimdark is more of a background theme used to better emphasise heroic characters and victories. Whilst this is not to say these did not occur in previous editions, the “heroic” factor is more heavily prominent as the the general pattern for 5E fluff seems to be “lone badass/squad” saving the day, often via defeating an entire army or very tough opponent. What makes matters worse is that each codex seems to have a fluff entry that is bigger and better than the previous codex: • Vanilla SM Codex had Marnus Calgar hold is own against an entire army • BA Codex had the Sanguinor defeat an entire army and a special character bloodthirster. • GK Codex had Draigo defeated Mortarion and numerous entities and places within the warp (including a Bloodthirster with his bare hands).
Coteaz, Crimson Fists. Read his blurb in whatever codex he's in. You want a hero that get's owned every mission he's in and STILL kicks everyone's ass? That's your guy.
As for Calgar? Read the newest Ultramarines novel, he's not invincible.
Didn't read the BA codex, have no clue. Mephiston conquered the Red Thirst...a psychically genetic defect in every Blood Angel since...forever. He's earned his badass tag.
Grey Knights...well, we don't need to talk about Draigo but the novels have Alaric end up being a pretty tortured good guy.
The oneupmanship? That makes total sense, honestly. I've seen the same thing. (not sarcasm)
If you think the good guys are winning, take another look. The setting is very grim.
Psykers sacrificed by the milllions each day to a dead guy on a throne. There are mutants born each second to unsuspecting parents, daemons rip out of the warp through a renegade psycher's head and devour families. There is rampant insanity in guardsmen who server for a few years. Plague, lust, magic, and rage all have gods appointed to them and worshipers in each basement.
Sure the marines may kill an entire ork horde, but thats only the battle. The war isn't over at all. Here is how that ends. (The orks all die, but their spores are released. The marines leave after doing their job, then years later the ork spores have finally grown and rampaging feral orks burst out of the forests and cut down villages and cities.)
Chaos is a contsant threat, and with legions like the Alpha Legion and Night Lords, you never know who is a true loyalist. Things can get so bad that the imperium HAS to kill an entire planet sometimes. Daemonhunters fight an un-winable war against daemons.
And no matter how much ass Marnius Calgar can kick, my Kharn the Betrayer will be there to take his 20th Calgar skull.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......
he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)
These used to be the sort of exploits you'd expect to read only in a 12-year-old's homebrew chapter fluff. I say that without any exaggeration. Now it's official fluff.
Marneus Calgar - One individual. An ENTIRE ARMY. For 24 HOURS. Come on, do the math.
Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.
Mephiston - I could fill a page ranting on this guy, but I'll simply confine my comments to: Lord of Death? I think the Emperor, Eldrad, Mortarion, Trazyn the Infinite and quite a few others would have something to say about that.
Draigo - How does he survive in the warp without a constant supply of Sisters blood to "anoint" his armour with? Couldn't help myself
"My kustom spess mehreens chapter is the "Knights of Awesomeness", and they pwn. Teh emprah got off his thorne just to celebrate their founding and FAPFAPFAP"
I miss the Necrons.
Before, they were terribly mysterious and scary; soulless self repairing machines that were really, really hard to kill and just killed everything in their path. Now, they are the friends of the space marines, have personality (double face-palm) and seem.... weak.
Grey knights before were terribly mysterious and powerful, now they are apparently marines, superior only in war gear.
The new Dark Eldar and Space Wolves is great, though.
Overall i prefer 40K as a universe where there is absolutely no peace; war is everywhere, the galaxy is one great battlefield and the imperium is highly unlikely to win; imagine a giant free-for-all ruin city fight where you can only see war at the horizon, and in the sky.
The new codices make the galaxy seem stable.
IMHO, it is NOT.
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Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.
Indeed, and a "TENDRIL" means thousands (if not millions) of hive ships.
Ulthanashville wrote:
These used to be the sort of exploits you'd expect to read only in a 12-year-old's homebrew chapter fluff. I say that without any exaggeration. Now it's official fluff.
Marneus Calgar - One individual. An ENTIRE ARMY. For 24 HOURS. Come on, do the math.
Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.
Mephiston - I could fill a page ranting on this guy, but I'll simply confine my comments to: Lord of Death? I think the Emperor, Eldrad, Mortarion, Trazyn the Infinite and quite a few others would have something to say about that.
Draigo - How does he survive in the warp without a constant supply of Sisters blood to "anoint" his armour with? Couldn't help myself
"My kustom spess mehreens chapter is the "Knights of Awesomeness", and they pwn. Teh emprah got off his thorne just to celebrate their founding and FAPFAPFAP"
Exactly. I think recently 'heroic deeds' of the special characters have lost all sense of proportion; it is just ludicrous.
I loved to read the background sections of the codices, I even bought codices of armies I did not play just to do that; no way I'd do that these days.
Seaward wrote:
I, much more rationally, blame the proliferation of Black Library novels which, while certainly good at least in some cases, pretty much require upbeat endings
Which BL books have you read? Clearly you've never read 15 Hours.
I haven't, no.
Everything by ADB, most everything by Abnett, a fair amount of McNeill's, and of course some Sandy Mitchell.
I honestly try to avoid everything else.
If you've read Double Eagle, you'll realise that Abnett's books are depressingly great and greatly depressing.
Ulthanashville wrote:
Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.
It would of been far more believable if it said that Maugan Ra was the only survivor on that planet, implying he had an army with him, they just all died.
Draigo- So a simple single Supreme Grand Master grey knight best a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle, has time to rip his chest cavity open, then proceeds to carve his former master's name in it and just keeps on truckin. And this is believable? A Daemon Primarch.....who I believe its said to be in the same room the plauges he has eat away armor and flesh alike....really?
Maugan Ra- from what I have read so far just seems like there making him into a Eldar Calgar, an Eldar one man army who defines what an eldar warrior should be
Mephiston- The BA I use to love but now I would like to see him suddenly reveal he is worshiping chaos and then start a civil war within the chapter. Or he could possibly just become a reborn Sanguinious.
The only believable part about Draigo for me is that he has done some impressive things while in the warp and made himself not worth the time of the Greater Daemons there. As far as him splitting a Daemon Primarchs chest open and carving a name into his heart, yeah that's just insane.
You've got it backwards. Beating a Daemon Primarch is fine enough, considering numerous other less suitable characters have taken out arguably more powerful Daemons than Mortarion, it isn't ridiculous. How it happened is stupid, I'll give you that. However, having a single person, even a Grey Knight, run around in the Warp killing Greater Daemons and being utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods is stupid and over the top. It says in the same damn Codex that the Warp is dangerous even for Grey Knights, in the Interceptors entry, and they only enter it for moments at a time.
I think GW/BL sort of defeat themselves when they write rediculous fluff like Draigo. True, it's 40k and anything is possible, but...when they've spent so much time and money over the years making fluff 'rules' (as it were), they do have a nasty habit of breaking them.
Do I love over-the-top good guy pwnge? Yeah, I do. But I love a well-written story more. There have been numerous times that GW/BL have killed their heroes in some sort of awesome way and while that sucked, I appreciated the story as a whole. Some of this newer stuff is...well, fun but lacking in substance.
Do I think Calgar holding a gap in a fortress wall is silly? Not really. In fact, when comparing the other chapter masters (Dante, Logan, Azrael) he doesn't get much face time so I'm happy he get's noticed for more than The Battle for Ultramar.
Mephiston? I only know what I've read on Lexicanum. On the board he's silly, almost broken, but I've seen him killed by a FW team so...yeah.
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.
Lelith Hesperax was killed in a Nick Kyme novel, I think it was Firedrake, by a Salamander Chaplain.
Back on topic, I agree with the changes to the Necrons "history", amongst others, it sure sounds like the Emperor can just go ahead and die and the Imperium will be just fine.
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.
Lelith Hesperax was killed in a Nick Kyme novel, I think it was Firedrake, by a Salamander Chaplain.
That makes me sad. She is one of the best Female 40k models.
Also, Eldrad and Urian Jacobus are also dead playable characters.
IronSnake wrote:Yeah that bit was directly from Space Marine the game. Excellent game... but that part was just pure cheese. The orks would be more menacing if they were to just simply roar with the occasional EXTREMELY broken english. The fact that they have a handle on the english language always struck me as extremely odd, but to be able to throw complete perfect sentences together coupled with their weird accent just makes it cheesy.
A low gutteral growl and "off... ship!" would suffice. But meh. It is what it is.
This doesn't show up much in fluff, but Ork Warbosses are actually very smart, especially when compared to the rank and file Ork Boy. Make of that what you will...
IMO, I think that the setting itself is still inherently grimdark, but the writing in the codices often very poorly emphasizes that. It's hard to notice that Draigo's situation could be considered grimdark when not a single thing in the Warp can so much as give him pause, and as iproxtaco mentioned before the notion that he is completely immune to the will of the Chaos Gods is ridiculous. The Grey Knight codex also tries its hardest to make Daemons non-threatening. Take Mortarion, not merely a Daemon Prince, a Daemon Primarch, and as such far above the norm for such beings. Draigo beating him isn't inherently silly or dumb, but the way it was written was. That didn't read like some epic struggle of a lone warrior triumphing against all odds in mortal combat with a foe who once burned down entire worlds at the head of the greatest army in the galaxy at the time, it read like some punk beating up his kid brother. This makes Mortarion, and his masters, look like jokes, and hurts Chaos' (The essentially main villainous faction) credibility. The Grey Knights codex has more examples, though Draigo's exploits are just the most triumphant ones. There is a single loss in the Grey Knights codex I can remember, every other example is just them pwning Daemon ass like it's not a thing.
It still strikes a little fear in me whenever I read a book and the necrons or 'nids are mentioned. It always has that sense of, "Oh crap, a lot of people are going to die now". I still get that feeling now, even though with the recent codex, it seems that the necrons are given more heart and soul, but to a less extent. I always liked the idea that necrons were killy killy, anything that breathes dies, but I guess it could seem a little more grimdark that even they have to ally with enemies cuz of the 'nid threats.
Draigo's exploits are just a little ludicrous. Going up against a primarch is serious business and the fact that he manages to carve his name onto Mortarion's heart?
I don't mind GW's slight turn from grimdark, because I don't see it as much of a change. The tyranids are still a pretty scary force as well as those necrons (WHO WONT DIE), and the Imperium struggles to maintain their grip on their own planets, many of which are either lost to chaos, lost because of some idiots in power, nom'd by nids, wiped out by awakening tomb worlds, or a host of other threats.
I think the BL books have just mainly been focusing on those epic battles of heroism, SM, CSM, those super giants, in an attempt to get the mainstream hormonally charged teens into this hobby. Frankly I don't mind, I'm one of those teens. But a whole lot of heroic battles doesn't win wars.
Dunno if anyone read the Fall of Damnos, but the 'crons stomped all over people, SMs included. The PDF might as well have not even been there and the Ordinatus they had...well, read the book.
Its the focus more than the overall content that lets down the grim darkness of it all. I'll use the Tyranid codex as an example.
A lot of people die. A lot. Most of it is glossed over in favour of human heroics though.
Macragge? Most of the Macragge system is ravaged. Go read about Prandia, for instance. Most of the Ultima Segmentums Guard and Naval assets are wiped out, along with a good portion of the plot armoured Ultramarines. Calgar is just about slaughtered by the Swarmlord. The ultimate sacrifice of self destructing an irreplaceable battleship snatches victory from the bugs.
Kraken? Iyanden is reduced to a fraction of its original inhabitants. Ichar IV and other planets are ravaged. Victory is again snatched from the bugs at the last minute, this time by Prince Yriel.
Leviathan. Untold carnage. Multiple systems wiped out, inclusing Space Marine fortress worlds and Gryphonne IV, an irreplaceable major Forgeworld. Reading the little boxouts on the glactic map of Leviathan, while some bits stick out like Maugan Ra holding off a fleet by himself, the vast majority is worlds dying, the Imperium making fighting retreats form engagements (the worst thing you can do against Tyranids), and loss of territory.
Even the minor fleets Naga, Gorgon, etc do untold damage and destroy multiple worlds.
Yet, it's all written in such an utterly sterile way that there's no sense of dread. These 'space locusts' are destroying world after world, and its actually in print in the book, yet it's done in such an unmemorable way no one actually recalls any of it and don't see the dread of fighting a hive fleet. The memorable content focuses on heroics defeating the hive fleets, which again, takes away from the dread. When the majority of the memorable fluff for the army in its own codex is about them losing, they don't come across as a threat.
The main problem is they're written up heroes of the Imperium utterly without fear, and made them the focus of the fluff. When these peerless heroes, who are one in a trillion among the fighting forces of the Imperium, see their planet falling down around them from untold billions of giant bugs, or daemons exploding from warp rifts, Eldar appearing from nowhere and slicing their forces to bits, and don't give a gak and look for the next Avatar to strangle with their bare hands, you end up changing the tone of what you're reading.
Frankenberry wrote:Dunno if anyone read the Fall of Damnos, but the 'crons stomped all over people, SMs included.
Funnily enough I heard the exact opposite.
They crushed the normal 'umies, only for the Space Marines to stomp ass.
The same thing happened with Siege of Vrax. The Chaos alliance brought the IG and SM chapters to the brink of defeat as well as managing to summon the most fearsome Bloodthirster in existence (an unprecedented feat) ….Then comes along Inquisitor Hector Rex and the Grey Knights. Hector Rex single-handedly defeats Angrath in a one on one duel and the Grey Knights quash the remaining enemy forces. The first and second halves of the story feel unrelated IMO with the first half feeling like a “classic” 40k/grim dark struggle and the second half more of a comic book.
Something I’ve noticed recently with the 40k fluff pieces in the rule books/FW supplements is that the writers tend to put a “happy ending” in the storyline, often via the IoM being victorious. What the writers usually miss is that “happy endings” don’t work in the 40k Grim Dark setting when the entire purpose is the eternal war between the various factions (with none of the factions being the “good guys”). The notion to have “good guy” comic book style victories just unbalances the Grim Dark setting IMO as it portrays IoM as the far dominant faction, particularly when Matt Ward writes the majority of IoM codex fluff.
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.
Lelith Hesperax was killed in a Nick Kyme novel, I think it was Firedrake, by a Salamander Chaplain.
That makes me sad. She is one of the best Female 40k models.
Also, Eldrad and Urian Jacobus are also dead playable characters.
Its not Lelith, IIRC that novel is set in the Horus Heresy when she had not yet been born
SylvanaSekNadin wrote: Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.
Lelith Hesperax was killed in a Nick Kyme novel, I think it was Firedrake, by a Salamander Chaplain.
That makes me sad. She is one of the best Female 40k models.
Also, Eldrad and Urian Jacobus are also dead playable characters.
Its not Lelith, IIRC that novel is set in the Horus Heresy when she had not yet been born
The Tome of Fire books, which Firedrake is part of, are set in the 'modern' 40k setting. So that was Lelith Hesperax.
Here's another thing you have too reflect on: How much grim darkness is too much? You can quite easily overstep the mark and hit the area of offensiveness and maybe even tastelessness (is that word?) if you make everything too dark.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
... the Imperium always had its angelic equivalents. Living Saints were an early example (third edition), but even its regular saints were capable of doing things like beating a hive tyrant in single combat.
This is why I like the Imperial Armour campaigns: The Imperium regularly gets the sh*t kicked outta em. Don't get me wrong I am an Imperialist through and through but I am a little sick of the mary-sueishness that has invaded imperial codexes in the last few years. I haven't read the new necron dex but from what I've seen I won't like it one bit fluff wise. I liked it when the necron were mindless unfeeling emotionless butchers, they have been humanised by GW making them less frightening.
Ugly Green Trog wrote:This is why I like the Imperial Armour campaigns: The Imperium regularly gets the sh*t kicked outta em. Don't get me wrong I am an Imperialist through and through but I am a little sick of the mary-sueishness that has invaded imperial codexes in the last few years. I haven't read the new necron dex but from what I've seen I won't like it one bit fluff wise. I liked it when the necron were mindless unfeeling emotionless butchers, they have been humanised by GW making them less frightening.
I agree sir, the IA campaigns are very well written and thought out by and large, and it seems sometimes they actually played out the scenario/story on TT before setting it to paper, the gentlemen at Forgeworld always produce a quality fluff read.
Frankenberry wrote:Dunno if anyone read the Fall of Damnos, but the 'crons stomped all over people, SMs included.
Funnily enough I heard the exact opposite.
They crushed the normal 'umies, only for the Space Marines to stomp ass.
The same thing happened with Siege of Vrax. The Chaos alliance brought the IG and SM chapters to the brink of defeat as well as managing to summon the most fearsome Bloodthirster in existence (an unprecedented feat) ….Then comes along Inquisitor Hector Rex and the Grey Knights. Hector Rex single-defeats Angrath in a one on one duel and the Grey Knight quash the remaining enemy forces. The first and second halves of the story feel unrelated IMO with the first half feeling like a “classic” 40k/grim dark struggle and the second half more of a comic book.
Something I’ve noticed recently with the 40k fluff pieces in the rule books/FW supplements is that the writers tend to put a “happy ending” in the storyline, often via the IoM being victorious. What the writers usually miss is that “happy endings” don’t work in the 40k Grim Dark setting when the entire purpose is the eternal war between the various factions (with none of the factions being the “good guys”). The notion to have “good guy” comic book style victories just unbalances the Grim Dark setting IMO as it portrays IoM as the far dominant faction, particularly when Matt Ward writes the majority of IoM codex fluff.
Depends when the novels were written and what the setting was. If the novels you’re referring to are the Horus Heresy ones then they don’t count as end result for these stories have been pre-established (they’re not allowed to change the endings).
The happy endings/“not so Grim Dark environment” is only a recent shift that started to occur in 4th and escalated greatly in 5th. It’s easier to find “Grim Dark” stories where the IoM loses in stuff written during previous editions than stuff written in the current edition. The general majority among recent fluff tends to have the IoM victorious at the end of the story (even if exterminatus/equivalent can be counted as a downside).
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.
Lelith Hesperax was killed in a Nick Kyme novel, I think it was Firedrake, by a Salamander Chaplain.
That makes me sad. She is one of the best Female 40k models.
Also, Eldrad and Urian Jacobus are also dead playable characters.
Its not Lelith, IIRC that novel is set in the Horus Heresy when she had not yet been born
The Tome of Fire books, which Firedrake is part of, are set in the 'modern' 40k setting. So that was Lelith Hesperax.
Ah right - ok sorry about that - I thought you meant the HH Salamanders novel where the Dark Eldar turn up..... Is she dead dead in the novel as Dark Eldar can be regrown from bits and pieces...... also now I come to think of it did she also get killed in a earlier novel getting old and can't remember
I actually like the Draigo story. Considering normal humans don't get sucked back into the warp when the demonic invasion retreats, it's pretty clear he's at least partially demonic by this point. Sure, he may still fight for humanity whenever the chaos gods decide to let him off his leash a little, but in the end, he's still their bitch. It's a neat play on the Sisyphus tale. He's not immune to the will of the warp, he's just dancing for their amusement.
Mephiston also has something not so human in him, but I doubt it's still on the side of the empire. If space marines could become ultra-powerful by tuning into their geneseed, it would have been brought up before. Now, what in this setting, grants excessive powers, especially to psykers? What's also known to cause major personality shifts? Possession! I'd say infiltrating a space marine chapter with what, statline wise, appears to be a daemon prince certainly sounds grimdark enough.
I like the people tragically trapped in bodies of steel the necrons are now pulling. Then again, there's nothing to say a C'tan shard didn't get off of it's leash in the millenia the Necrons slumbered, and took over a few tomb worlds from which to devour life. The old fluff isn't invalidated, merely expanded. Why rewrite old fluff?
If you guys like the fluff that much, just play 40k Roleplay, those books produced by Fantasy flight are extremely true to the themes laid down in 2nd/3rd edition. The lore is consistent and well developed, and there is an actual reason for knowing anything about it (Story Telling).
I have a feeling that FF's 40k will end up being very different than GWs40k, I hope FF doesn't cave in to them and just stays true to what they are writing.
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.
Ultimately everything goes through a cycle. You need the Imperium losing at times and winning at others. Otherwise they may as well just come out with 6th edition and tell us that the Imperium is in full retreat and is going to lose.
Yeah... that's a lot of fun. Better to have the fluff go through a roller coaster of wins/losses to keep it balanced.
I really wouldn't draw a distinction between "all good' and 'all bad'. 40k has its own share of extremes, but it also tends to take a more 'gray area' approach, especially in the way the various factions are portrayed (noone is wholly good, or wholly bad.. all factions can have their good people and their bad people... which is rather plausible and makes sense, since it adds depth and variety to all the races.)
This applies to stories as well. just because 'The Imperium wins' doesn't mean its all sunshine and flowers. What was the cost in winning? How many troops were lost? how many civilians were killed? Was this war conducted for good and honorable reasons, or was it on the personal vanity/greed of someone else (that happens quite a bit)? While this war was going on did it leave some other planet exposed (EG a war on planet X may very well leave planet Y exposed to Dark Eldar raids - the Imperium does not have infinite resources.) Was the planet devastated? How long will it take to rebuild/ Can it rebuild? And so on. I honestly can't think of any Imperial 'victory' that did not come at a high cost (or a loss for that matter.) Especially if its written by Forge World (It'll be interesting to see whether the Imperium or the Eldar are the bigger punching bags there.)
For my part, I tend to prefer the FFG material from a purely fluff perspective as well as the novels. It's researcjhed, well fleshed out, and generally rather consistent. It also keeps to the tone of 40K without totally and uttelry descending into parody or sounding like propoganda the way the codexes do. Or like they novellized the tabletop battles the way Imperial armour books do (not a good way to do it, since its doubtful game mechanics are an accurate reflection of reality....)
Connor MacLeod wrote:I really wouldn't draw a distinction between "all good' and 'all bad'. 40k has its own share of extremes, but it also tends to take a more 'gray area' approach, especially in the way the various factions are portrayed (noone is wholly good, or wholly bad.. all factions can have their good people and their bad people... which is rather plausible and makes sense, since it adds depth and variety to all the races.)
This applies to stories as well. just because 'The Imperium wins' doesn't mean its all sunshine and flowers. What was the cost in winning? How many troops were lost? how many civilians were killed? Was this war conducted for good and honourable reasons, or was it on the personal vanity/greed of someone else (that happens quite a bit)? While this war was going on did it leave some other planet exposed (EG a war on planet X may very well leave planet Y exposed to Dark Eldar raids - the Imperium does not have infinite resources.) Was the planet devastated? How long will it take to rebuild/ Can it rebuild? And so on. I honestly can't think of any Imperial 'victory' that did not come at a high cost (or a loss for that matter.) Especially if its written by Forge World (It'll be interesting to see whether the Imperium or the Eldar are the bigger punching bags there.)
By the most part you are correct in that there are no “good guys” in 40k. I will say that “the cost of winning” isn’t necessarily an adequate enough drawback to making the IoM victorious when in comes to victories as it works against the overall purpose of 40k, being the eternal intergalactic war in a grim dark future.
What I’ve personally found is by having the IoM constantly victorious, it downplays severity of the setting and at the same time unbalances the IoM’s image in comparison to the other factions. The IoM currently has the appearance of being the far dominant faction in 40k which in turn weakens the image of the other factions which in turn, makes the setting “less grim dark”. Personally I think this is probably one of the reasons why the IoM is going to be portrayed in 6th edition as being on the back foot (if the rumours prove true).
Warmachine does the eternal war torn setting better in my opinion as their fluff does a better job of keeping the balance between all the factions. No faction or character ever gets a serious leg up (in terms of images or victories) over the other, which IoM makes the setting seem far more eternal and grim than 40k.
When I first read about the tyranids from my friend I was quite excited about their plot, the idea of some external mindless threat that surpassed everything else was a damn good idea (especially the fact that the defeat fleets so far are just a small test of the galactic armada to come).
What I don't like was when I read my own codex and discovered that DE just kinda strolled in, made some monsters, and destroyed a hive fleet while everyone else was fighting tooth and nail loosing almost entire craftworlds/fortress worlds in the process.
Anyway the astronomican is dieing so soon warp travel for the imperium will be decimated, than the xeno's will have their day....or the emperor becomes a god.
mishka_shaw wrote:
What I don't like was when I read my own codex and discovered that DE just kinda strolled in, made some monsters, and destroyed a hive fleet while everyone else was fighting tooth and nail loosing almost entire craftworlds/fortress worlds in the process.
That was a splinter fleet or a small Hive Fleet though, not one of the larger ones like Behemoth, Leviathan or Kraken (I'm going to ignore the one that destroyed Malan'tai, because that was terrible background and doesn't really fit in with everything else we know in my opinion).
mishka_shaw wrote:
Anyway the astronomican is dieing so soon warp travel for the imperium will be decimated, than the xeno's will have their day....or the emperor becomes a god.
Losing 1 in 10 ships isnt so bad. If you go by the original meaning of decimate. Somehow it got to mean wipe out a large portion of.
But yeah, warp travel will be gone. At least for the IOM. Of course it would never happen, with that 1+ rerollable plot armor
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.
Lelith Hesperax was killed in a Nick Kyme novel, I think it was Firedrake, by a Salamander Chaplain.
That makes me sad. She is one of the best Female 40k models.
Also, Eldrad and Urian Jacobus are also dead playable characters.
Its not Lelith, IIRC that novel is set in the Horus Heresy when she had not yet been born
The Tome of Fire books, which Firedrake is part of, are set in the 'modern' 40k setting. So that was Lelith Hesperax.
Just started reading the Salamander novels and enjoying them
The Wych main character in Firedrake is actually named Helspereth which seems her only name - she is never called Lelith Might be a typo and supposed to be Ms Hesperax but I don't think so
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:In many a discussion with my friends, all of which Warhammer 40k fans who play tabletop and read 40k novels we have recently began to notice a certain pattern in the new codexes that GW has been releasing.
I am referring to the fact that, in many of the newer codexes, the lore just doesn't seem as dark and...I think hopeless is too strong a word, but its close. The older lore was that the Imperium was always on the verge of collapse and only barely holding on. While I haven't seen anything that directly says this isn't still the case other things have me thinking.
Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......
he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)
There are more examples of this out there in various novels, but I won't go into that. In previous codexes, it just didn't seem like things where so...optimistic and there where still heroes, but not like this.
I also want to state that with the exception of Draigo, I don't actually mind the 41st millenium getting alittle brighter. I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who has noticed this change in WH40k lore.
Space Marines aren't the reason the setting isn't hopeless, the Imperium boasting the largest, strongest military forces in the galaxy, and facing off against foes that are either pathetic, fatally flawed, or just not all that interested in fighting the Imperium is what makes the setting not hopeless. Space Marines are just a ridiculous footnote in the Imperial forces, who primarily show up to strike fancy poses and take credit for the accomplishment of the other Imperial forces. Strictly speaking, Space Marines aren't even Imperial, being independent states who can do pretty much whatever they feel like, without much scrutiny.
Most of the heros are also just Ward spamming a ridiculous number of special characters in everything he does for whatever reason, along with his entire lack of reasoning ability or sense of scale, to say nothing of his almost purple prose.
the fact that the Starchild theory is still going around, despite a severe lack of any GW recognition of the theory since 3rd Ed. says something about the game, and the people who play it.
People can only take so much grimdark before they start thinking "this is kind of depressing... I would rather enjoy my game than be depressed about how grimdark it all it." The fact that the universe is completely stagnant isn't helping anything.
Also, http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/9153-Hating-Warhammer-40k-and-Space-Marine it's a bit much, but he has a point. The darkness of the fluff is perhaps the biggest deterrent against playing or getting into the game. I don't know anybody who wakes up and says "Oh, I'm gonna get all depressed today!" People don't like being depressed. And GW knows that. The only problem is they created a game universe with 20 years of depressing fluff. Things like Space Marines being OP and Draigo roflstomping Mortarion and Maugan Ra defeating an entire swarm single-handedly lend to the notion that perhaps grimdark only stays grimdark for so long before something changes.
Also, as many people have pointed out, the way the codices are written makes huge event meaningless. Tyranids kill half of the galaxy? Eh. Necron rise? Eh. Space Marines do something? HUGE VICTORY FOR THE IMPERIUM YAAAAAAAAY!
GW needs to stop handing out victories to the Space Marines, and the codex fluff writers needs to stop writing so matter-of-factly. Instead of saying "the Tyranid Hive Fleet Jumanji decimated the majority of the Segmentum Pacificus" they should say "the overwhleming might of the Hive Fleet Jumanji ravaged the Segmentum Pacificus, leaving it a dry, barren husk." This goes for every codex and race. I know you can only fit so much into a text box, but come on. There is so much you can say that will add fear and dread into whatever you're writing. The poster child of GW needs to lose sometimes too, although I think we can thank Matt Ward for keeping the Space Marines' plot armor thicker than ever.
The darkness of the fluff is perhaps the biggest deterrent against playing or getting into the game. I don't know anybody who wakes up and says "Oh, I'm gonna get all depressed today!" People don't like being depressed. And GW knows that. The only problem is they created a game universe with 20 years of depressing fluff. Things like Space Marines being OP and Draigo roflstomping Mortarion and Maugan Ra defeating an entire swarm single-handedly lend to the notion that perhaps grimdark only stays grimdark for so long before something changes.
Depressed ? If people get "depressed" upon hearing of 40k fluff, then they're just looking for excuses to feel depressed. There is no shortage of settings that display your usual Good vs Evil struggle with the good guys having the upper hand (or living a prosperous, undisturbed life under the protection of the god Statu Quo) for no other reason than them being good and/or humans. 40k is actually very refreshing in that regard, in that Humanity does stand a chance to fall.
Their fight seems pointless ? No. They're in survival mode, hard-pressed from every corner of the galaxy, pitted against countless, relentless enemies, but that's exactly the point : in a credible way, Humanity's very existence is at stake. Survival is never pointless. Besides, what alternatives would there be ? Well, in fact, don't think too much about alternatives, the Imperial Creed and its legions of enforcers are here to ensure that— *BLAM*
Stories featuring anti-heroes are like black coffee. Bitter it is, but here lies the appeal. Grimdark is like a particularly strong variety.
And I'd rather not have them sneakily pour sugar in my coffee. I bought it expecting some bitter goodness, sugar would just feel misplaced and sickening.
Here I blame bad writing. I agree with you on the second point and some already mentioned it, if you just repeatedly pile up senseless carnages one upon the other, people's empathy is numbed and you fall into dead baby caricature territory ; if you feature each new codex overpowering with ease whatever comes in its way, all the cheese just cancels out and you fall again into cheesy caricature territory. The setting loses consistency and appeal, it ceases to be enjoyable for what it is intended to be.
I was shocked by the Necron retcon (Netcron ?) : I'm OK with them having more personality, but why did they have to get rid of the C'Tan ? Now they're little more than ancient tin Tau sans utopia from what I can see. Talk about softening the setting... Heck, they were a threat to the Tyranids ! That's a bit too big a U-turn for me. (I'll be glad to stand corrected if I'm wrong, I really want to see the Necrons as a galactic threat rather than mere notalgic conquerors.)
So that's that : to me, questionable writing and artistic choices are indeed chipping away at the setting's appeal. Faithfully expecting corrections in next edition...
Ulthanashville wrote:These used to be the sort of exploits you'd expect to read only in a 12-year-old's homebrew chapter fluff. I say that without any exaggeration. Now it's official fluff.
Draigo - How does he survive in the warp without a constant supply of Sisters blood to "anoint" his armour with? Couldn't help myself
"My kustom spess mehreens chapter is the "Knights of Awesomeness", and they pwn. Teh emprah got off his thorne just to celebrate their founding and FAPFAPFAP"
. It's on Lexicanum and is actually the only place I really saw it, 
.
- I thought you meant the 
getting old and can't remember