at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+) and some one not the store owner or director came up to me and said yeah you cant play that here....I was like why not it has nothing wrong with it....and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here and later to find out we don't. Any way he went to the store director complaining like a little girl and he told me it would just be best if i go home so he would shut up. But I dont plan to change the flags or models what should I do?
Not sure your jew response was appropriate. You dont have to be Jewish to find Nazism and its beliefs offensive.
If the store manager had no problem with it and the army genuinely has no Nazi connotations just clearly explain to him the reasoning behind your paintscheme/build.
If he continues try and ignore him or ask the store manager to have a word with him. He is probably a loudmouth looking to make a name for himself in the store.
Try and explain the army first, many people may not have seen a DKOK army since its FW.
Commissar41.0 wrote:and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here and later to find out we don't. [/b]
That's where you fethed up. Being a smartass in the situation makes you wrong. Full stop. Go back to the store, remain calm, and have a rational discussion with the store manager/owner/whatever. Bring a couple of models with you to show him again.
If you act like a spoiled, entitled 15 year old, you won't get anywhere in life.
If your army looks just like Nazis without swastikas - but including other symbols that clearly indicate the inspiration - then yes you are 'in the wrong'.
By 'in the wrong' I mean that you are free to paint your guys however you wish, but to think that what you've chosen won't cause offense is utterly naive. Nazi Germany's actions and policies, aside from being genocidal towards Jews, are pretty repugnant to any decent human beings. The store owner was completely within his rights to ask you to leave, since you could offend other patrons.
I would guess the damage has already been done and the army won't be welcome there anymore sadly.
You might try again, but avoid any potentially any problematic language. Just explain that you have a DkoK army. Look it up on Forge World. Explain that they are based off of WW1 trench warfare. yadda yadda...
Be nice and civil. If that guy complains again, it will make him look like the duche that he is. If he asks you to leave, remind him that its not his decision.
Maybe go in and talk to the store manager at a time when no one is playing and explain the situation. Apologise for the jew comment, but say that you felt insulted you couldn't use your well painted and expensive Forge World models because someone got a hangnail over it. Its not like you had them painted like the SS or anything. I doubt anyone would have recognised the Luftwaffe symbol so the only point of contention would be the uniform, and besides the Luftwaffe weren't the political thugs in the german army. Maybe point out how just about every 40k army resembles some historical or modern faction in some way. Would people get insulted if you came in with a Tallern army? Or an army full of Commissars? or a Dark Eldar army? Or a Daemon army?
My point is that the whole 40k universe is full of highly unpleasent things that any number of people could get all wound up about. If this is a fixture of the store, I would find another place to play.
Commissar41.0 wrote:at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+).
Could we get some pictures?
First off, the DKoK models are not WWII Germans - and that's really only because their helmet resembles the German Stahlhelm. Without that, they're essentially WWI soldiers with laser guns. Unless you aren't using the DKoK models, and have instead gotten actual WWII German minis. Which compounds the problem.
And I want to see just how well used the Balkenkreuz is in your army. If it's just the occasional mark, then you can just say you were inspired by the Prussian/German Iron Cross.
But the whole 'Jewish' remark? Yeah, that was stupid. I really can't tell your age, but the situation could have definitely been handled in a better manner. Ah, ok. You're 17. Yeah, that definitely could have been handled better.
DKoK are just WWI soldiers...
The jewish remark, as others have said, was a silly thing to do.
You should have just explained to him that it has nothing to do with the Nazi's...
I've never seen this symbol as offensive, if the army had swastikas painted all over it I may understand the managers concerns but I don't see any problems. Also please don't say something about Jews, sadly people always interpret these as bad things, but don't try to be a smart arse ether.
purplefood wrote:DKoK are just WWI soldiers...
The jewish remark, as others have said, was a silly thing to do.
You should have just explained to him that it has nothing to do with the Nazi's...
Apart from the fact that theyre from 40000 years in the future and in an imaginary universe. Dkok do not resemble the Wermacht (i think thats how its spelt) at all. people just connect them because the helmets and overalls look midly simalar to an SS officer in the field. Why this person had a go at you OP i have no idea but making a smartass comment to do with jews was way out of line.
I've never seen the Balkenkreuz as offensive. Germany adopted it really really late into WW1, if I'm not mistaken. I've never seen it as a Nazi symbol or anything. If you had swastikas on your models then you would be in the wrong, but initially, you're in the right. Then you said "I'm not aware we have any Jews here" which is when you went from "skirting on the edge of okay" to "so far in the wrong you can't tell which way is up". I'm not Jewish, and I still find that comment sort of offensive. I also would find a bunch of swastikas painted on your models pretty offensive, unless we were specifically playing a World War 2 game.
In short, you were in the right, said something you shouldn't, and now are in the wrong.
The Balkenkreuz has it's origins in WW1, the DKoK models are German only inso much as they have Stahlhelm (created in WW1) inspired helmets and German style WW1 gas masks, the uniforms are primarily French inspired and the color scheme in the pic matches the French WW1 uniform very closely.
All in all, store owner being a jerk and blasting his mouth without knowing what he's talking about probably just because of the helmets and crosses.
that said, you probably shot yourself in the foot with the ill informed ethnic remark.
Grey Templar wrote:I would guess the damage has already been done and the army won't be welcome there anymore sadly.
You might try again, but avoid any potentially any problematic language. Just explain that you have a DkoK army. Look it up on Forge World. Explain that they are based off of WW1 trench warfare. yadda yadda...
Be nice and civil. If that guy complains again, it will make him look like the duche that he is. If he asks you to leave, remind him that its not his decision.
Maybe go in and talk to the store manager at a time when no one is playing and explain the situation. Apologise for the jew comment, but say that you felt insulted you couldn't use your well painted and expensive Forge World models because someone got a hangnail over it. Its not like you had them painted like the SS or anything. I doubt anyone would have recognised the Luftwaffe symbol so the only point of contention would be the uniform, and besides the Luftwaffe weren't the political thugs in the german army. Maybe point out how just about every 40k army resembles some historical or modern faction in some way. Would people get insulted if you came in with a Tallern army? Or an army full of Commissars? or a Dark Eldar army? Or a Daemon army?
My point is that the whole 40k universe is full of highly unpleasent things that any number of people could get all wound up about. If this is a fixture of the store, I would find another place to play.
The WW1 Trench Warfare sounds fitting and like your best option, just go in and politely apologize, especially for the jew comment, and make an intelligent conversation/appeal with good reasons for your army to be allowed, with an appropriate theme.
That doesn't look NAZI in any way shape or form. I have no idea how this started in the first place.
Regardless, I fear the damage has already been done. Although you should still go and talk to the manager. Do make a point of apoligizing for your comment though. it will make you look alot better and you will, should, get an apology in return. If you don't, find another place to play.
Vaktathi wrote:The Balkenkreuz has it's origins in WW1, the DKoK models are German only inso much as they have Stahlhelm (created in WW1) inspired helmets and German style WW1 gas masks, the uniforms are primarily French inspired and the color scheme in the pic matches the French WW1 uniform very closely.
All in all, store owner being a jerk and blasting his mouth without knowing what he's talking about probably just because of the helmets and crosses.
that said, you probably shot yourself in the foot with the ill informed ethnic remark.
Many, *many* people don't make much of a distinction between the Balkenkreuz and the Swastika (besides the obvious visual difference). They associate both with Nazi Germany - the Swastika is just more widely known.
The store owner was in the right, receiving a (perfectly valid) complaint from a customer and dealing with it the easiest way possible.
The complaining person might have been okay if the OP had explained that they weren't Nazi symbols and there was no attempt at making a Nazi army.
The OP definitely shot himself in the foot with the ethnic comment.
TBH, I would've been fine playing against an army like that until I heard the comment he made. Then I would've asked for the OP to asked to leave. There was no reason for it.
Having a few vague comments from you about your army, your secondhand recounting what others have said, and a single picture, I can't really say how I feel about your army.
But, with that horrible, terrible comment you made, and the fact that you think just because there's no Jewish players around, a Nazi-inspired army is okay, I'm inclined not to give you the benefit of the doubt.
rigeld2 wrote:
The store owner was in the right, receiving a (perfectly valid) complaint from a customer and dealing with it the easiest way possible.
Telling a customer they can't use an army with valid models and a decent paintjob without inquiring further isn't the right way to go about doing that, especially if its an independent where they run stuff like Flames of War where such iconography is of course routine and tolerated. If it was a GW store, it's even sillier given that there's art of DKoK and Steel Legion (fallschirmjaeger clones) troopers bearing flags with german military crosses in several pieces of 40k artwork and the DKoK models are valid Citadel miniatures.
The complaining person might have been okay if the OP had explained that they weren't Nazi symbols and there was no attempt at making a Nazi army.
Or if the complainers had taken the time to ask about the army that, at least from the available pic above, has more in common visually with French Poilu's than anything else.
The OP definitely shot himself in the foot with the ethnic comment.
Grakmar wrote:But, with that horrible, terrible comment you made, and the fact that you think just because there's no Jewish players around, a Nazi-inspired army is okay, I'm inclined not to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I was with you on your story until you got to that part. DKOK with Iron Crosses = OK. DKOK with Iron Crosses and Anti-Semitic opinions = Not OK.
Commissar41.0 wrote:at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+) and some one not the store owner or director came up to me and said yeah you cant play that here....I was like why not it has nothing wrong with it....and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here
Everything was gold for ya till the ethnic comment. You need to apologize for that. And then point out that they're DKoK and the paint job ain't nothing like Nazis. Hell, I think the Luftwaffe symbol is actually kinda cool.
And technically you could get away with swastikas if you were Hindu or had some connection with Hinduism (though they'd have to be inverted)
Isn't that symbol the Iron Cross or what have you?
Doesn't Germany still paint that on their tanks? If so, then how does a symbol that Germany uses TODAY possibly have any connection with the Nazis? Doesn't modern Germany absolutely deplore Nazism? Don't people know this? We aren't teenage girls who think the USSR was a submarine... people should know better. Especially people who probably visit a store and went through that awkward phase of being semi-obsessed with world war two.
This whole situation is filled with people who don't know enough to be able to comment on the situation. And now I want to buy FWDKoK.... shoot.
He doesn't need to apologize for any statements he made; this isn't elementary school.
The fact is that I doubt he meant the comment in a snarky way; I read it as an earnest statement from someone who probably doesn't realize others are sensitive about the subject and just thought that only Jewish people in the store would be offended. This may be slightly misguided, but I doubt he meant it to be offensive or snarky; remember that text is hard to convey true meaning.
If you made a comment that offended people because you put it across other than you intended it then, no, techinically there is no reason to apologise. However, the better man would do so.
jbunny wrote:If you can't do Nazi stuff how do you play Flames of War?
You don't get a choice with that, you make the army as it is. And there's a genuine historical argument.
But to take a fantasy army, and then consciously model them up to look like nazis is douchebaggery. Like the kid that desperately wants to get attention, or maybe it simply shows a lack of understanding that it is 'not cool' to even hint at some degree of glorification.
What the difference between nazi tanks and IG tanks painted in panzer grey with crosses? None, because WW2 german tanks weren't marked with swastikas, they carried the cross. So if you make IG tanks and paint them grey and put crosses on them, well they look rather like the source material and bleating that they aren't anything to do with nazis even though they are styled after their armed forces isn't going to convince.
I personally think it's telling that when the OP was faced with the nazi connotations being pointed out, he didn't react with genuine surprise that someone could draw such a terrible connection but immediately said "but there aren't any jews around". That makes me think he knew exactly what he had modelled before even going in the shop but didn't expect to be called on it.
If you folks are so offended by even the reference to Nazis, who do you feel about anybody in Germany playing against Imperial guard, that are so obviously modeled after British or American forces in WWII?
First of all the German Cross is not a symbol of Nazism, it's a symbol of GERMANY.
Even if your army did look like Nazi's I dont understand what the problem is.... It's an army in a Sci Fi tabletop game... I would love to play against an opponent feilding an army of Nazi's. Who doesnt wanna fight/kill Nazi's!?
Next time someone give you flak for feilding an army that looks like Nazi's ask them if they think its appropriate to go home and play as an Axis soldier on thier Xbox in Battlefield or some other game.
But...but 40k is...it's a PARODY of most of the worst things in human history! The crusades, Nazi Germany, stalinist russia, imperialist japan, the mongolian hordes, all the worst excesses of all the worst regimes.
Monsterous catholic style cathedrals built on human suffering, massess being oppressed by a horrible religion based on a martyred god, loyalty to the fascist state causing mankind to turn on itself.
HOW IS IT EVER OK TO GET IN TROUBLE FOR PLAYING A NAZI INSPIRED ARMY!? I mean...what!? Thats...thats the point of the game! Or at least A point of the game.
And you people are defending the store owner? For kicking out someone for playing with official models!?
And, taking the OP at his word (obviously the conversation and tone could have been much worse than he is implying) his 'snarky' comments...No.
No. You say NO. Like when a puppy pees on the ground NO. NO.
This hurts my head. It is simply INNAPROPRIATE to be this sensitive when playing in such a parody universe like this. When you are offended by the very CORE of the experience the onus is on YOU to avoid things you find offensive. I'm not saying it's bad to be offended, but it IS bad to complain about in and punish others because you don't like the nature of the hobby.
And it is not right for the store owner to punish people for being in the spirit of the game. His comments weren't offensive, at least not to the point where there is any grounds for punishments.
I'm not faulting him for playing a nazi army (although it is silly since it will cause controversy). I'm faulting him for following criticism with a joke in poor taste that just proved everyone's point.
Yeah baring more information the 'sniff test' is someone who made his own problem. No one is going to throw you out of a store for a well researched and painted army... however they will knock it to the curb if paired with arse-hatness.
I think you were in the right. There aren't any insultive symbols in your army just a mark of the german army that they just happened to be using in WW2 all armies have something that they are ashamed of but picking you up on the crosses and the german style uniform is just being fussy. I mean people dont yell at you for building a sail ship for it looking to much like a slavers ship do they? The jew comment was out of line though and the maneger did have right to ask you to leave for it. I see no problem with the army though as most of the imperial gaurd armies are based on historical armies.
Vostryans are based on 1700-1800's british soldiers.
Catachans are based on the american troops in vietnam
Picking you up for painting your army in the style of the germans is just being silly, I own a model of a WW2 german tank and nobody yells at me for that other wise hundreds of model making companies would be shuting down.
I have no problem with your army and find it perfectly acceptable, the man who picked you up on your army was probably somebody who just wanted to look good infront of all the people at your games-workshop. there is nothing wrong with painting your army in that style as they arent meant to be hounoring the germans in any way, you just gave them a cool paintjob and somebody disagreed with it possibley because they had been picked up on something similar and wanted to redeem himself in the eyes of his fellow gamers. There are several armies that could be considered dis-respectfull but nobody asks chaos players to leave because they are using an army that is meant to worship fake God's or Necron player's who can actually field the C'tan. I think you should go back to the shop and have a quiet discussion with the manager explaining that your army is not meant to be a nazi army and is just an army that is painted in a particular style and if he really is fed up with your army either re-paint them or play with them somewhere else.
This issue comes up every now and then in gaming circles and I never understand why. First of all this is a game, one side against the other, somebody has to look like the bad guy. Who is a bigger stereotype for bad guys then Nazis? I understand the “it’s offensive” remarks, but what do people say when people are playing historical two tables over. So it’s ok for the flames of war players to have German looking troops but not the 40K players, that really does not make sense. People play both sides in video games like call of duty all the time and nobody screams about being offended. I also find it ironic that people who are huge drooling fan boys for the 40K universe could be offended by Nazi looking models when they play Chaos or Imperial armies. If people read any of the dribble that GW puts out they will see that both the Imperiaum and Chaos do evil things just as bad if not worse than anything done in Nazi Germany. GW stories are full of torture, genocide, racism, murder and worse, but nobody says they are offended. In a way it is sadder to imitate these traits in a fictional world then it is to create a historical recreation. If nobody wants to be offended then we should all give up the game or play Tau and fight for the greater good. So for all those offended people out there you should take a closer look at your own army before you make comments about other peoples. Honestly what is more offensive the Nazi themed guard or the slaanesh/dark elder army that revels in the pain of others and will try to torture, rape, murder, and rape again their victims. Or what about the imperium who wipe out entire planets because they are a different religion. Let us not read too much into a collection of toy soldiers on a table top.
I don't think anyone is faulting him for painting his guys like germans with WWII iconography, Mr. S Baldrick, you're misreading the thread.
We're faulting him for not expecting some sort of response in the real world when he did it and then acting like a tool in response.
Simmer down a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Honestly what is more offensive the Nazi themed guard or the slaanesh/dark elder army that revels in the pain of others and will try to torture, rape, murder, and rape again their victims. Or what about the imperium who wipe out entire planets because they are a different religion.
Also, the difference is that the Nazis were real and killed real people, who someone might be related to. The DE and the Imperium are fake. Guaranteed no one you meet is going to have had their grandmother raped and killed by a DE. Slight distinction, I know, but I can see how someone might be a bit touchy about it if their family had a personal experience.
pretre wrote:I don't think anyone is faulting him for painting his guys like germans with WWII iconography, Mr. S Baldrick, you're misreading the thread.
We're faulting him for not expecting some sort of response in the real world when he did it and then acting like a tool in response.
Simmer down a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Honestly what is more offensive the Nazi themed guard or the slaanesh/dark elder army that revels in the pain of others and will try to torture, rape, murder, and rape again their victims. Or what about the imperium who wipe out entire planets because they are a different religion.
Also, the difference is that the Nazis were real and killed real people, who someone might be related to. The DE and the Imperium are fake. Guaranteed no one you meet is going to have had their grandmother raped and killed by a DE. Slight distinction, I know, but I can see how someone might be a bit touchy about it if their family had a personal experience.
So you think it is ok to applaud that behavior in a fictional world, but condemn it in the real world. That kind of thinking is a little obtuse. I get the point of the thread; I think people are harping on the guy too much. First we don’t know from text how the guy meant his comment. Second you cannot act offended by real events and encourage the same actions in a fictional world, it’s a little hypocritical.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:So you think it is ok to applaud that behavior in a fictional world, but condemn it in the real world. That kind of thinking is a little obtuse. I get the point of the thread; I think people are harping on the guy too much. First we don’t know from text how the guy meant his comment. Second you cannot act offended by real events and encourage the same actions in a fictional world, it’s a little hypocritical.
Yes, I absolutely think it is okay to applaud behavior in a fictional world and condemn it in the real world.
- I do not think it is okay to fire guns at people and make them dead in the real world. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it it okay for someone to walk into a bar, tell a story and then kill every MF'er in the bar. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it is okay for a government to oppress its people, convince them they have always been at war with their neighbor and persecute them for their very thoughts. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
You getting the idea here?
There is a big leap between fiction and reality. Thinking that dystopian sci-fi societies that kill mutants and psykers are pretty cool is a lot different than thinking a real society responsible for killing a couple million jews is cool.
Also, how else can you mean "I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here" in reference to " it looks to much like a NAZI army"?
edit: Taken apart, his army's appearance and the comment aren't that bad and wouldn't be cause for much comment. Taken together, they form a certain picture.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:So you think it is ok to applaud that behavior in a fictional world, but condemn it in the real world. That kind of thinking is a little obtuse. I get the point of the thread; I think people are harping on the guy too much. First we don’t know from text how the guy meant his comment. Second you cannot act offended by real events and encourage the same actions in a fictional world, it’s a little hypocritical.
Yes, I think it's absolutely okay (even a good thing) to have a healthy separation between fantasy and reality. From the context of his OP I'm inclined to think he knew Swastikas would be offensive and that he could "get away with" using the Iron Cross.
If that's the case, I'd consider him 100% in the wrong.
That said, the comment about not knowing there were Jewish people in the store was not the best of moves on the OP's part, especially considering the atmosphere that was forming. Personally, I see nothing wrong with German Military iconography, though if the iconography was specifically related to Nazism (e.g: the Swastika, an unfortunately misappropriated Hindu symbol) and was not intended for historical accuracy, then that's out of line.
I'd advise, before using historical symbols, to research them fully in future so if you use them on models and these sorts of situations arise you can educate the person about them rather than making comments which can be seen as either smart-arsed or misunderstood (remember, on the internet no one can hear your tone of voice!).
I have no issues with the use of the Balkenkreuz myself - DKoK are inspired, as others said, from French, Belgian & German WW1 troops and the Balkenkreuz came into use mid-1918. I'd also not mind if the troops were painted in a close approximation to the Wehrmacht feld-grau. As Lord_Vader says, outside of a historical context using Nazi iconography would be, as he put it, out of line.
jbunny wrote:If you can't do Nazi stuff how do you play Flames of War?
Simple, you use a Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe force. SS =/= German army of 1939-45.
pretre wrote:
Yes, I absolutely think it is okay to applaud behavior in a fictional world and condemn it in the real world.
- I do not think it is okay to fire guns at people and make them dead in the real world. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it it okay for someone to walk into a bar, tell a story and then kill every MF'er in the bar. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
- I do not think it is okay for a government to oppress its people, convince them they have always been at war with their neighbor and persecute them for their very thoughts. But it is damn entertaining in fiction.
You getting the idea here?
Good now that we agree on that. It should be ok even if he/somebody wants to put swastikas on thier models in a sci-fi game because it is damn entertaining to kill nazis.
To the OP I say play on, and don't let people bother you. If your models look like modern US/UK somebody will be offended if they are against the war in Iraq. If you have catachans they will be offended if they were against Vietnam. If you have tallarens they will be offended if they are from NY (have a true story on that for another time). Or people just may not like the color blue either way don't let it get you down and remember this is America. If anyone has a proplem with it tell them to look at the 1st amendment of the constitution.
It is amazing that nobody gets up set over a vahallen army made to look like Soviet Russians, who by the way killed more people that the Nazis and in just as horrible of ways.
Several peole in this thread have missed this. Granted its poorly expressed
Any way he went to the store director complaining like a little girl and he (the store owner) told me it would just be best if i go home so he (the guy complaining) would shut up
He did not get kicked out, he was asked to leave (possibly even politely) so the store owner and other patrons could get some peace from the guy whinging.
See my OP for my views but it seems to me anyway the store owner was partially if not fully on his side. He (the store owner) simply didnt want to deal with the conflict, which in itself is poor and another issue altogether.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Good now that we agree on that. It should be ok even if he/somebody wants to put swastikas on thier models in a sci-fi game because it is damn entertaining to kill nazis.
It is fine for them to do so, but they should expect that someone might get offended. That's just the nature of using controversial symbols in your gaming.
To the OP I say play on, and don't let people bother you. If your models look like modern US/UK somebody will be offended if they are against the war in Iraq. If you have catachans they will be offended if they were against Vietnam. If you have tallarens they will be offended if they are from NY (have a true story on that for another time). Or people just may not like the color blue either way don't let it get you down and remember this is America. If anyone has a proplem with it tell them to look at the 1st amendment of the constitution.
It is amazing that nobody gets up set over a vahallen army made to look like Soviet Russians, who by the way killed more people that the Nazis and in just as horrible of ways.
The difference is of degree. All of those are controversial, but none are as controversial as Nazis. You shouldn't be surprised to be called out on any army if you paint them to be historically accurate rather than staying in the sci-fi/fantasy setting. But if you paint your army as Nazis, you're just asking for it.
1st Amendment of the Constitution doesn't allow you to play in a private store if the owner doesn't want you to be there. You have the freedom to say what you want in public. So go take your anti-semitism to the public park and play 40k there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, again Baldrick, you missed the point. No one cares that he painted his army as Nazis. They cared that he was a douche AND painted his army as Nazis. If he wasn't a douche, he could have explained himself and gotten to play. Instead, the store owner's decision was justified by his behavior.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Good now that we agree on that. It should be ok even if he/somebody wants to put swastikas on thier models in a sci-fi game because it is damn entertaining to kill nazis.
And if someone is offended, the right thing to do is to mock the situation and play on amirite!
Yeah you can't play that Black Templar army, the references and symbolism involved the models are linked to the crusades and are a blatant glorification of the murderous rape and pillage of the so-called "Holy Land" by non-Muslim Western Europeans.
See how that works? It's a game, take the broomstick out of your butt and relax.
agnosto wrote:Yeah you can't play that Black Templar army, the references and symbolism involved the models are linked to the crusades and are a blatant glorification of the murderous rape and pillage of the so-called "Holy Land" by non-Muslim Western Europeans.
See how that works? It's a game, take the broomstick out of your butt and relax.
Thanks, Captain NonSequitor.
There's a couple big differences:
- No living person was affected by the crusades directly or even had their parents affected in the same way that living people were affected by the Nazis.
- Of someone WAS offended by your crusader army and, instead of explaining that it has nothing to do with the rape and pillage of the so-called Holy Land by non-muslim western europeans, you just said 'There's no Muslims here, what's the problem?', I would probably still think you were a douche and ask you to leave.
See how that works? It's logic, take the broomstick out of your butt and think.
This may sound like trolling but.....
I would have packed my army, then walked aroungd the store and pulled probably a solid dozen board games from the shelves and laid them on the table I was supposed to play at... Starting with "Axis and Allies", a game where one player actually is PLAYING the Nazis, Pointed this out to the owner and then left.
Let them deal with their own hypocrisy.
helgrenze wrote:This may sound like trolling but.....
I would have packed my army, then walked aroungd the store and pulled probably a solid dozen board games from the shelves and laid them on the table I was supposed to play at... Starting with "Axis and Allies", a game where one player actually is PLAYING the Nazis, Pointed this out to the owner and then left.
Let them deal with their own hypocrisy.
That's a much more mature response than just explaining that your army is built on a historical german regiment and not meant to glorify Nazi-ism (which is what the OP should have said).
Well, the right way to handle it is to punch the offended gamer in the testicles as hard as possible so as to prevent him from reproducing more silly and weak human beings. However, that might cause you legal troubles.
But, when you painted your DKOK to look like the Wehrmacht, you should have known it would upset some people. And it's in the store manager's best interest to prohibit things that contain controversial imagery. There are certain things you don't make positive reference to in general company. Nazi Germany is probably one of them. I mean, I saw an authentic SS helmet for sale at a gun show once that somebody's grandpa or uncle must have brought back from WWII, and I thought "Wow, that's a pretty cool piece of history". And then I tried to figure out how I explain having that helmet to anyone who came to visit my house. Reason won out.
If you want to play that army in public arenas, reason dictates you should probably change the iconography. It may not be "right" but it's what is prudent.
Ok so the complainer had an issue with the army.... fine. does that invalidate the point that there are other games that actually include and encourage the playing of an actual nazi... not german-based... army?
Yeah the OP could have handled things differently, but it would have not likely quieted the complainer who obviously wanted to be offended by the "nazi-based" army.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you want to play that army in public arenas, reason dictates you should probably change the iconography. It may not be "right" but it's what is prudent.
Or be prepared to discuss your choice like an adult with other adults.
It's a wonderful, rose colored universe you live in where you can change the minds of offended simpletons through rational discourse and where rational appeals to merchants overcome good business sense.
I mean, he probably could have handled it better, and without the Jew comments. But really, in the end it wouldn't have made a difference. He'd have a moral victory, and hundreds of dollars of still useless Forgeworld resin.
agnosto wrote:Yeah you can't play that Black Templar army, the references and symbolism involved the models are linked to the crusades and are a blatant glorification of the murderous rape and pillage of the so-called "Holy Land" by non-Muslim Western Europeans.
See how that works? It's a game, take the broomstick out of your butt and relax.
Thanks, Captain NonSequitor.
There's a couple big differences:
- No living person was affected by the crusades directly or even had their parents affected in the same way that living people were affected by the Nazis.
- Of someone WAS offended by your crusader army and, instead of explaining that it has nothing to do with the rape and pillage of the so-called Holy Land by non-muslim western europeans, you just said 'There's no Muslims here, what's the problem?', I would probably still think you were a douche and ask you to leave.
See how that works? It's logic, take the broomstick out of your butt and think.
I fail to see how my post is not relevant and you may note, if you weren't so busy attacking me personally, that I never defended the OP's statement, simply the fact that overreacting about his army theme has nothing whatsoever to do with politics or even his personal views...unless of course he has white supremacist tattoos all over his body.
As to the relevancy of the crusades. You may recall that the term "crusader" is still used in the Arab world as a derogatory statement much like the term "Nazi" is in the western world. One might say that crusaders are even more relevant a point of angst in this day and age, considering the high Muslim population in the world and how said population still feels about the crusades, than Nazism. Yeah, logic and a basic grasp of history and current events.
Yeah the OP could have handled things differently, but it would have not likely quieted the complainer who obviously wanted to be offended by the "nazi-based" army.
Not sure your jew response was appropriate. You dont have to be Jewish to find Nazism and its beliefs offensive.
He is probably a loudmouth looking to make a name for himself in the store.
We agree on the same thing
My secondary point was the store manager handled it badly in terms of wanting "a quiet life".
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's a wonderful, rose colored universe you live in where you can change the minds of offended simpletons through rational discourse and where rational appeals to merchants overcome good business sense.
I mean, he probably could have handled it better, and without the Jew comments. But really, in the end it wouldn't have made a difference. He'd have a moral victory, and hundreds of dollars of still useless Forgeworld resin.
And the whole thread would be a lot more sympathetic to him. Instead we're talking about what a douche he is.
You never really know what might offend people, so you should just go with what makes you happy. I have an SS patterned Steel Legion army and have never had anyone complain about them. But in 2002 I have them at a tournament at the old Baltimore Battle Bunker where another guy had a nicely painted metal Tallaren army. Right before the tourney started the manager stormed out and told the guy “Get those rag headed M***** F**** off my table or get out”, the guy was completely shocked and nobody even saw it coming. The manager never said a word about my army. Though they other employees did refund the guys entry fee when the manager left and let the guy play the tourney with one of the store armies. So as other posters have pointed out you just have to be willing to be prepared for anything and take it in stride.
agnosto wrote:I fail to see how my post is not relevant and you may note, if you weren't so busy attacking me personally, that I never defended the OP's statement, simply the fact that overreacting about his army theme has nothing whatsoever to do with politics or even his personal views...unless of course he has white supremacist tattoos all over his body.
People aren't really reacting to his theme, they're reacting to his behavior.
As to the relevancy of the crusades. You may recall that the term "crusader" is still used in the Arab world as a derogatory statement much like the term "Nazi" is in the western world. One might say that crusaders are even more relevant a point of angst in this day and age, considering the high Muslim population in the world and how said population still feels about the crusades, than Nazism. Yeah, logic and a basic grasp of history and current events.
Agreed, which is what I said. If someone was offended by a 'crusade' army and he acted like a douche to them like he did at the store, I would still call him out. His army's theme has nothing to do with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:You never really know what might offend people, so you should just go with what makes you happy.
and not act like a douche.
Also, that Battle Bunker manager should be fired for so many reasons.
I agree he definitely suffers from foot in mouth disease but I've said things I've regretted in the past, as have we all; let's hope he learns from the experience.
agnosto wrote:I agree he definitely suffers from foot in mouth disease but I've said things I've regretted in the past, as have we all; let's hope he learns from the experience.
Which answers the central question of the thread? 'Am I in the wrong?'
Yes. Not for your army choice, but because of your mouth.
agnosto wrote:I agree he definitely suffers from foot in mouth disease but I've said things I've regretted in the past, as have we all; let's hope he learns from the experience.
Which answers the central question of the thread? 'Am I in the wrong?'
Yes. Not for your army choice, but because of your mouth.
This is the key lesson that should be learned here.
There is nothing wrong with the German army of World War II. Germany is a proud country, and their army of WWII was one of the most remarkable armies ever assembled. I respect the German army of wwII, and any historian does. Germans who fought in WWII fought for their country. People in the military dont have a choice, they do what they are told.
Now that being said....you have a choice with what you morally do. I obviously ABHORE the treatment of Jews in world war II, but the magority of German Soldiers DID NOT commit war crimes.
I dont like German Policy in the 1940s, But I can RESPECT the German Soldiers who fought for their country.
Now....IF you had SS soldiers treating Jewish models poorly, or a model resembeling Adolf Hitler, then I would have a problem with that, but you dont.
There is a destinction between Anti-Semitism, and Germany.
My Arguement would be , "Im from German Decent, this army honors my family, My Grandfather fought in World War I" There is nothing offensive with Germans Flag.
Smitty0305 wrote:There is nothing wrong with the German army of World War II. Germany is a proud country, and their army of WWII was one of the most remarkable armies ever assembled. I respect the German army of wwII, and any historian does.
Now....IF you had SS soldiers treating Jewish models poorly, or a model resembeling Adolf Hitler, then I would have a problem with that, but you dont.
There is a destinction between Anti-Semitism, and Germany.
My Arguement would be , "Im from German Decent, this army honors my family" There is nothing offensive with Germans Flag.
I swear no one reads these threads before posting...
Again, no one has said that he shouldn't have a German WWII army. We're saying that if he's going to have one, he better be prepared to talk about it with potentially offended parties and not be a douche about it.
Smitty0305 wrote:There is nothing wrong with the German army of World War II. Germany is a proud country, and their army of WWII was one of the most remarkable armies ever assembled. I respect the German army of wwII, and any historian does.
Now....IF you had SS soldiers treating Jewish models poorly, or a model resembeling Adolf Hitler, then I would have a problem with that, but you dont.
There is a destinction between Anti-Semitism, and Germany.
My Arguement would be , "Im from German Decent, this army honors my family" There is nothing offensive with Germans Flag.
I swear no one reads these threads before posting...
Again, no one has said that he shouldn't have a German WWII army. We're saying that if he's going to have one, he better be prepared to talk about it with potentially offended parties and not be a douche about it.
Im just talking about the distinction between Hitlers SS, and the German Army, No need to freak out lol.
<sigh> PC gamers... I am playing with little plastic dollies. So if you bring out you IG army - I forget the name - with the WWII Stalinist russia feel to them. I should point out that Stalinist russia killed lots of people - probably more than the Nazis. get all huffy with my opponent and yell from the top of my voice that I refuse to play with a commie sympathizer.
Get a life. The ONLY stupid thing he said was the "There aren't any Jews here are there?" comment. Personnally I would commend you for taking the time to research and paint your army to resemble some historical past. The Jew comment put you down on his infantile mindset and gave him justification. Otherwise shoot GW and Forge World for making models that resemble some of the worst of humanity's examples.
Tallarn - Modern day Jihadist/Al Qidah
Voystriyan - Czarist Russia
Steel Legion - Nazi German Fallschirmjagers.
Catchan - US in Vietnam (talk to the Vietnamese)
DKoK - Imperial Germany
Mordian Guard - USMC - phllipine insurgence,
Smitty0305 wrote:There is nothing wrong with the German army of World War II. Germany is a proud country, and their army of WWII was one of the most remarkable armies ever assembled. I respect the German army of wwII, and any historian does. Germans who fought in WWII fought for their country. People in the military dont have a choice, they do what they are told.
Actually the German army in WWII is not totally innocent of war crimes. During the push across Poland and later Russia there was too much for the einsatzgruppen (SS extermination units) to deal with so the task of exterminating Jewish Citizens was handed over the Wehmacht and then on to their reserve police units. These duties were on a voluntary basis, so these guys knew what they were doing and chose to do it. For anyone that is interested in doing more than just watching the tripe on the History Channel check out Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning for a good reference to just how involved other branches were involved in the Holocaust. These police units of the regular army were responsible for eliminating whole towns and ghettos, so you can say there is something wrong with the German WWII army.
Smitty0305 wrote:There is nothing wrong with the German army of World War II. Germany is a proud country, and their army of WWII was one of the most remarkable armies ever assembled. I respect the German army of wwII, and any historian does. Germans who fought in WWII fought for their country. People in the military dont have a choice, they do what they are told.
Actually the German army in WWII is not totally innocent of war crimes. During the push across Poland and later Russia there was too much for the einsatzgruppen (SS extermination units) to deal with so the task of exterminating Jewish Citizens was handed over the Wehmacht and then on to their reserve police units. These duties were on a voluntary basis, so these guys knew what they were doing and chose to do it. For anyone that is interested in doing more than just watching the tripe on the History Channel check out Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning for a good reference to just how involved other branches were involved in the Holocaust.
I actually appreciate this responce, and that looks like a VERY interesting book.
Obviously im walking over thin ice with this statement, but my overall point in which Im sure you can agree, is that some germans who fought in WWII did so because they were told to do so. Generals like Rommel didnt support the holocaust, and generally treated POW's well, and at the very end of the war when he contemplated surrendering the western front the SS forced him to commit suicide. Obviously what Germany did during WWII was terrible, but there were heroes among the Germans who opposed hitler.
as a german ...one sole comment...we had very few heros in that dark time...even so called heros like as staufenberg...they were known for their antisemitic beliefs...
Viktor von Domm wrote:as a german ...one sole comment...we had very few heros in that dark time...even so called heros like as staufenberg...they were known for their antisemitic beliefs...
Also true. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe other than the military assasination attempt, there was no other organized internal resistance movement on a large scale to the regime.
not really ... you are right...there minor movements...but to no general avail...sadly...my only hope is if ever such historic movements should rise again, germany then would fight the enemy within...
Commissar41.0 wrote:at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+) and some one not the store owner or director came up to me and said yeah you cant play that here....I was like why not it has nothing wrong with it....and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here and later to find out we don't. Any way he went to the store director complaining like a little girl and he told me it would just be best if i go home so he would shut up. But I dont plan to change the flags or models what should I do?
I think that you handled that foolishly saying what you did but everyone is entitled to paint and play their army as they see fit. My suggestion though is maybe to change the luftwaffa symbols to the hydra symbol from captain America that looks cool and is still kinda evil looking.
You never want to give them more fuel. He said it was a nazi army and you replied with "there's no jews around".
While being snarky is never that way to go, if you absolutely have to, pull something out of your butt to throw them off.
"This isn't Nazi. It's the Positive Reinforcement Brigade. Blue is a calming color, which would help keep them rallied in battle and the plus symbols on everything is supposed to give a Positive vibe. I wanted to put Smiley Faces, but I couldn't get them to fit on the small DKoK Shoulders."
Should you say this next time? No. Just tell them what every one else said about the Iron Cross and be done with it.
Calm facts are better than anything else you can bring to a conversation.
Commissar41.0 wrote:at my hobby store we were about to play a tournament when I pulled out my DKoK army that resembled a NAZI army but it had no swashti's just the German luftwaffe symbol (+) and some one not the store owner or director came up to me and said yeah you cant play that here....I was like why not it has nothing wrong with it....and he said it looks to much like a NAZI army, to which I replied oh I am sorry I didnt know we had any jewish members here and later to find out we don't. Any way he went to the store director complaining like a little girl and he told me it would just be best if i go home so he would shut up. But I dont plan to change the flags or models what should I do?
I very much doubt this actually happened. This post reeks of trying to be controversial to start an argument.
Kudos to everyone involved in the thread so far though for keeping it civil. This topic is one that often doesn't end well.
Cryage wrote:The entire imperial guard army is basically made after the Russians from WW2... how could somebody be offended by this
They aren't. Because those a mish mash of WW1 styles. It's tarting them up as nazis and brushing of criticism with "there's not jews about" that is the problem.
There's a lot of imagery in 40K suggesting the authoritarian nature of the imperium. Their uniforms, particularly the officers, the eagles and skulls everywhere. But to then actually turn them into nazis seems a bit dumb IMO.
My suspicion is that the OP is courting controversy, by making this army and starting this thread. He didn't paint swastikas but chose to sail close to the wind because he didn't deny the the nazi connection, he just said there were no jews about. No he's upset because he got challenged.
I say he produces photographs of the offending material.
I don't personally feel offended at the sight of nazis, I just think it's a dumb, crass idea to do them so obviously in 40K. Seems immature but it's easy for me because I'm in the UK apart from some familiy members fighting, my family was not really touched by the nazis. But judging by some comments here... I don't think some people realise how sensitive the nazi thing can still be, especially in parts of Europe. Yes Crusades killed a lot, but is that really a fair comparison? The fact is that the nazis killed a lot of people in Europe within living memory and wounds are deep, any perceived attempt to glorify or trivialise them will upset people, particularly in light of some neo-nazism - it makes some people very twitchy. A little bit of empathy beyond "well there's no jews about" wouldn't go amiss.
^^ Agree. I'd say the catalyst was the comment about the "I dont see any jews here" , even as a 'joke' , it was in poor taste and not something I would have said.
Personally, I've always found the Nazi's uniforms to be amazing looking and very stylish so if somebody did an army like that, I wouldn't have an issue... unless they were waiving swastikas around with "White power!" written on the side of a chimera
Cryage wrote:^^ Agree. I'd say the catalyst was the comment about the "I dont see any jews here" , even as a 'joke' , it was in poor taste and not something I would have said.
Personally, I've always found the Nazi's uniforms to be amazing looking and very stylish so if somebody did an army like that, I wouldn't have an issue... unless they were waiving swastikas around with "White power!" written on the side of a chimera
Oh yes, nazi uniforms look fantastic, but I got funny looks from the neighbours last time.
A lot of people make up armies that can be construed as offensive for kicks and giggles. The difference is, they only use them at home or at a friend's place where noone's going to get offended.
I don't think DKoK are offensive. But the comment very, very clearly was.
You can't just look at a person and go "well, they're Jewish" anyway. I know at least one person who doesn't look at all classically Jewish but grandparents escaped Nazi Germany with nothing but the clothes on their back.
You could have explained that no, no they're not Nazis, they're DKoK and gone on to explain the world of Krieg and why they look like that. Open discourse, education and conversation. Heaven forbid, you may have found someone you get along with instead of looking like a smart Alec.
Noone has to apologise. Most of us, including you, know whether or not you should. And it's entirely up to you whether you do or not.
My secondary point was the store manager handled it badly in terms of wanting "a quiet life".
I would say that the manager was looking to keep tension and arguments out of his store, like any good store manager would, so that people can play without feeling like they're going to be insulted by others and uncomfortable.
Tallarn - Modern day Jihadist/Al Qidah
Ummm.....not in the least. WWI Lawrence-led Arabic guerrilla forces. Trust me on this.
Ok people let me get some stuff straight Jewish or(Jews) is the proper politically correct statement its not slander I have nothing against the Jewish tradition/religion I just love the WW 2 battles/armies I mean would some one get angry if someone made a Red army (Soviet Russian) out of Vostroyan or Valhallans? Of course someone who takes it the wrong way.
I DO NOT CONDONE THE ACTION OF NAZIS OR THE RULES/IDEALS I JUST WANT TO MAKE A HISTORICAL ARMY VERSION THAT HAS NO POLITICAL CONVICTIONS!!!!!!
I am sorry if some of you are disturbed by this thread I don't care I am just trying to play a fun game with an old historical twist.
and the only German writing on the models is on the tanks and Valkyries near the guns and bottom and it says ACHTUNG or caution or warning in German.
If questions are raised explain that all characters appearing in your 40k army are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
Also, be polite to people and you will have less problems.
Commissar41.0 wrote:Ok people let me get some stuff straight Jewish or(Jews) is the proper politically correct statement its not slander I have nothing against the Jewish tradition/religion I just love the WW 2 battles/armies I mean would some one get angry if someone made a Red army (Soviet Russian) out of Vostroyan or Valhallans? Of course someone who takes it the wrong way.
I DO NOT CONDONE THE ACTION OF NAZIS OR THE RULES/IDEALS I JUST WANT TO MAKE A HISTORICAL ARMY VERSION THAT HAS NO POLITICAL CONVICTIONS!!!!!!
I am sorry if some of you are disturbed by this thread I don't care I am just trying to play a fun game with an old historical twist.
and the only German writing on the models is on the tanks and Valkyries near the guns and bottom and it says ACHTUNG or caution or warning in German.
If you want a generic response you've gotten it. It sounds like your army isn't actually painted as SS, it's painted as wehrmacht. If that's the case, then the army isn't really a problem, it's your attitude and the comment about Jews, which implied that only Jewish people would be offended. Which was crass and ignorant.
If you want more specific feedback, post pics of your army.
Commissar41.0 wrote:Ok people let me get some stuff straight Jewish or(Jews) is the proper politically correct statement its not slander I have nothing against the Jewish tradition/religion.
It wasn't the fact that you used the wrong politically correct terminology and you weren't derogatory about Judaism or anyone of Jewish descent, it was that you were callous in assuming only Jews would be offended by the Nazis. Now, that isn't to say that your army is a Nazi one, I think a historically inspired army paint scheme is a great idea , it's just that because the connotations with the Nazis had been established by the person who accused you, the comment you made was construed as offensive. It's a mistake to broadly generalise like that in any given situation anyway, so take this as a life lesson in sensitivity and defusing situations and move on.
Im just going to drop this in here. Everyone should be quiet. OP did nothing wrong. He said nothing wrong. They had no right to ask him to leave. The goal of 40k is the mass slaughter of every other living thing and some idiot at a store can't handle it then he shouldnt be working there. Templars are like the crusade. Space marines in general are representative of old empires that raped, pillaged and conquered the known world. People who collect model planes and tanks paint accurate symbols and color schemes onto the models they buy, does the hobby store have the right to boot them out after they take their money?
The death corps do look like pictures of german special forces that we have all seen, it is clearly the style that they are shooting for. In all honesty, despite the fact that they take their concept from them does that have to make them wrong? I think the models look amazing. Doesnt mean I walk around with my arm out and a tiny mustache. People just love to be offended about everything and anything. As gakky as it is, in a generation or two, the holocaust will be a bunch of facts in a textbook, like most wars are to us now. Such is the way of the world, get over it. Just wait for the stylized 300esque representations.
Platuan4th wrote:Way to skip the entire thread, Hoz. Your point has already been brought up and discussed earlier.
Way to read. I read the entire thing. I summed up my opinion. If other people share it, so be it.
I did read. That's not a summation, it's telling everyone to shut up because they're wrong:
"Everyone should be quiet. OP did nothing wrong. He said nothing wrong."
And yet, people have explained in good detail WHY they believe he's in the wrong. Your opinion is not definitive enough to tell everyone else to be quiet.
You're telling people what to do, NOT just summing up how you feel.
Platuan4th wrote:Way to skip the entire thread, Hoz. Your point has already been brought up and discussed earlier.
Way to read. I read the entire thing. I summed up my opinion. If other people share it, so be it.
I did read. That's not a summation, it's telling everyone to shut up because they're wrong:
"Everyone should be quiet. OP did nothing wrong. He said nothing wrong."
And yet, people have explained in good detail WHY they believe he's in the wrong.
I mean learn to read, you spelled my name wrong and it right in front of you and consists of only 3 letters. And oh really? Other people have opinions? Didn't realize that, thanks for sharing champ. He asked if there were jewish people in the club which is fair. The holocaust, while effecting lots of people is centralized around the massacre of jewish people when it is represented today and among the people I grew up with, despite the fact that we all have family members who fought and died in that war, our jewish friends tended to be the ones you didnt mention it around as when somebody basically declares war against your people and considers them subhuman, it can leave scars on your racial identity. I think if someone were to be truly offended by plastic soldiers that sort of, possibly look like nazis, it would probably be the demographic who made up the largest percentage of victims, if it bothered anyone at all.
Hox wrote:I mean learn to read, you spelled my name wrong and it right in front of you and consists of only 3 letters.
Do me a favor and look down at your keyboard. See that z next to the x? It's called slipping and making a typo you don't realize. No need to get bent out of shape about that.
Hox, he made a very offensive comment. You read that, right? Until he made that comment, he did nothing wrong. As to the OP, we really do need pictures to decide about your army, but it sounds like the guy was trying to bait you and you fell for it. I'd go back and apologize immediately and hope I'm not banned from the store.
Hox wrote:I mean learn to read, you spelled my name wrong and it right in front of you and consists of only 3 letters.
Do me a favor and look down at your keyboard. See that z next to the x? It's called slipping and making a typo you don't realize. No need to get bent out of shape about that.
Thanks for responding to the first sentence of my post, not the main concept I put out. Also, thanks for taking the time to actually respond to my first post with no information or point other than saying other people also have said what I did.
Hox, he made a very offensive comment. You read that, right? Until he made that comment, he did nothing wrong. As to the OP, we really do need pictures to decide about your army, but it sounds like the guy was trying to bait you and you fell for it. I'd go back and apologize immediately and hope I'm not banned from the store.
I just think people are so willing to be offended by everything and anything. If you told somebody their possibly nazi looking army was offensive and the first people he thought who could have been offended is jewish people really that far off? I would say thats fair of him. Why anybody would be offended by something that isnt even a real nazi army scheme is beyond me and the only people I could think of who would be upset enough to make any sort of deal about it would be someone who potentially lost most of their friends and family. My grandfather was german and him and his family were put into a work camp. He watched friends and extended family die. Him, his siblings and parents only escaped by pretending to be deathly ill and not wanting to become sick, they were thrown out of the camp by the nazis, assuming that they would die anyways and they escaped into austria. This did not stop him from collecting and building WW2 models later in his life. This did not stop him from openly talking about it at any point if you had any questions. People just love to be offended.
Hox wrote:I mean learn to read, you spelled my name wrong and it right in front of you and consists of only 3 letters.
Do me a favor and look down at your keyboard. See that z next to the x? It's called slipping and making a typo you don't realize. No need to get bent out of shape about that.
Thanks for responding to the first sentence of my post, not the main concept I put out. Also, thanks for taking the time to actually respond to my first post with no information or point other than saying other people also have said what I did.
OK, then, let's do this:
The death corps do look like pictures of german special forces that we have all seen, it is clearly the style that they are shooting for. In all honesty, despite the fact that they take their concept from them does that have to make them wrong?
DKoK do NOT look like German Special Forces like you posit. They are in fact(as stated by FW themselves) based on a mix of WWI German, French, and a few others.
People just love to be offended about everything and anything.
Yes, they do, and that would be a great point, if the army was what people had a problem with.
He asked if there were jewish people in the club which is fair.
No, he didn't. He said that he didn't know there were Jews there.
That statement is crass because it not only assumes that only Jews would be offended(hey, remember all those gays, gypsies, and various other ethnicities that were sent to the camps? Yeah, neither does anyone else), but also that it's only potentially offensive to have an army based around a certain period of history if there are certain people around.
Honestly, I didn't respond because your statements came across as being as ignorant as the OP's.
And that's all I'm saying for the rest of the thread. Also, sorry, Mann, I was typing this as your warning was being posted.
I wouldnt really say you were in the wrong (though you could of left off the jewish comment) I would just ask him to explain why he thought it was nazi. On a side note the majority of luftwaffe officers and men didnt suppot nazism
Hox wrote:Im just going to drop this in here. Everyone should be quiet. OP did nothing wrong. He said nothing wrong.
You are wrong. His question/statement implying that only Jews would find a Nazi army offensive was thoughtless, ignorant, and a bit racist, honestly.
Hox wrote:They had no right to ask him to leave.
If it's their property they certainly did. If he had an army that could offend passers-by (which has not been established for sure) or was making racist comments they would certainly be right to do so.
Hox wrote:IThe goal of 40k is the mass slaughter of every other living thing and some idiot at a store can't handle it then he shouldnt be working there. Templars are like the crusade. Space marines in general are representative of old empires that raped, pillaged and conquered the known world.
There is a real and substantial difference between having things in a fantasy world which use real world historical and literary themes, and taking that a step FURTHER by directly representing a real-world offensive thing which is not present in the fictional world. Explicit Nazi imagery, KKK imagery, or the like are another step beyond generic references to historical facist or murderous groups.
Hox wrote:The death corps do look like pictures of german special forces that we have all seen, it is clearly the style that they are shooting for.
No, they don't. As already points out earlier in the thread, their helmets and gas masks are similar to WWI Germans, and the rest of their uniforms similar to WWI French.
Oh so the OP should have been conscious of the large gay german and gypsy populations existing in his neighborhood? I couldn't see how anyone would be offended by this army and if someone were to out of the blue make a big deal of it and expect you to leave, you would have to assume there was maybe a certain person who had a history you didnt know of that the employee did and the employee was looking out for that person. If I came to that conclusion, my first guess would be a jewish person who had lost family. To call the OP ignorant and all this other stuff is ridiculous.
If you can honestly say that if you were to think of someone who would be offended by this and jewish people werent the first thing to pop into your head than maybe your missing a few nuts and bolts upstairs.
There is a real and substantial difference between having things in a fantasy world which use real world historical and literary themes, and taking that a step FURTHER by directly representing a real-world offensive thing which is not present in the fictional world. Explicit Nazi imagery, KKK imagery, or the like are another step beyond generic references to historical facist or murderous groups.
Ok nobody is ever allowed to use tallarn guards again because they represent middle eastern people. I lost a family member in the twin towers and being in the armed forces, have lost friends. Nobody is ever allowed to use them because they look like middle eastern guerrilla soldiers and that offends me. They have not only killed people in our society but their suicide bombs have done so to many other groups including their own. Is that fair at all? No. Would I ever do it? No.
The OP wasn't ignorant, he was a bit crass and thoughtless, unintentionally making a situation worse by making a statement that could easily be construed in a negative way.
Hox wrote:Oh so the OP should have been conscious of the large gay german and gypsy populations existing in his neighborhood?
Again, you're assuming the only people "allowed" to be offended are the ones that were directly affected by the Holocaust/camps.
I would be offended by an army that was trying to look like a bunch of Nazi's outside of a historical game. A Wermacht wanna be army? Meh, whatever floats your boat. But the "I didn't know any Jews were around" comment is what would've made me the most angry. The right response, as has been said, should've been to explain that the army isn't based on Nazism and the symbol isn't representative of the Nazi regime, rather it's a symbol that was used starting in 1918 by the Air arm of the German army.
The nature of the hobby means that there is a large percentage of people who have social interaction issues. Literally everything you do can cause offense. There are a few responses if someone takes offense at your actions, but the least reasonable is mocking the situation.
Lord_Vader wrote:The OP wasn't ignorant, he was a bit crass and thoughtless, unintentionally making a situation worse by making a statement that could easily be construed in a negative way.
100% fair. To call him all these names is not fair. Something slipped out and he made an assumption. That is not grounds to call him ignorant and racist. Maybe he doesnt have a way with words, but to blatantly say he is a bad person is not the right thing to do. I got you OP, I can see what you meant.
The nature of the hobby means that there is a large percentage of people who have social interaction issues. Literally everything you do can cause offense. There are a few responses if someone takes offense at your actions, but the least reasonable is mocking the situation.
Do you know that he was mocking the situation? He was probably genuinely asking if there were jewish people as thats who he assumed would have an issue with the army. Maybe its because I'm forced to be well rounded socially by choice of profession but if someone has interaction issues, that doesnt make it the other persons fault.
Lord_Vader wrote:The OPwasn't ignorant, he was a bit crass and thoughtless, unintentionally making a situation worse by making a statement that could easily be construed in a negative way.
100% fair. To call him all these names is not fair. Something slipped out and he made an assumption. That is not grounds to call him ignorant and racist. Maybe he doesnt have a way with words, but to blatantly say he is a bad person is not the right thing to do. I got you OP, I can see what you meant.
Good Lord man, are you blind? Being thoughtless on one occasion doesn't make you a bad person at all, nor did I say it did. We've all made mistakes, that's part of being human, that's the point I was making.
And where did me calling him a racist come into it? I think you're a bit wrapped up in your own logic-proof internet armour, personally, with your real-world blinders on.
Since people seem to be getting a little hot under the collar here, and it's a topic that's been done to death before anyway, I think it's time to move on.
But yeah, the major point stands.
