I've been out of touch with dakka and I'm just wondering if there has been any new news or rumors on SoB plastic sets? the last ones I remember reading are the ones from earlier this year, have any more come out sense besides the SoB being updated in white dwarf.

Nothing I've heard about thus far, but if they ever come out I will be all over them. Actually I probably won't, I've got sisters coming out the wazoo, but a plastic exorcist kit would please me to no end.

Nope.

Nothing.

Plastic miniatures for Sisters woudl make the army accessible and maybe even more popular (gasp). Its quite telling when your 2000 point list is 1060.25 dollars US at current prices. Thats quite a hurdle to starting an army IMO.

For those interested the count for my example is:

Uriah
3 Death Cultist blisters
3 Crusaders
9 Battle Sister blisters
10 Meltaguns
3 Simulacrum Imperialis
4 Heavy Bolters
7 Seraphim (cheap ones)
2 Hand Flamer Seraphim
1 Seraphim Superior
6 Sister Superiors (various types, all the same price)
2 Exorcists
7 Immolator boxes
3 Repentia blisters
1 Mistress of Repentance

I seem to be drawn to seldom seen armies and the SoB transitiong into plastic would actualy make me no longer want to collect the army. I'd probably end up doing the same thing to my SoB as I did to my all metal GK's...Selling them.

Ghost21 said they were released in September or he will run naked through Nottingham. Guess he will catch a cold soon
In other words, we don't know when the release will be, but it is likely that many miniatures are done.

Kroothawk wrote:Ghost21 said they were released in September or he will run naked through Nottingham. Guess he will catch a cold soon
In other words, we don't know when the release will be, but it is likely that many miniatures are done.

Its just silly for GW to expect this army to sell when its so expensive to buy. I can buy a 2000 point space marine army for about 400+ dollars less.

andrewm9 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Ghost21 said they were released in September or he will run naked through Nottingham. Guess he will catch a cold soon
In other words, we don't know when the release will be, but it is likely that many miniatures are done.

Its just silly for GW to expect this army to sell when its so expensive to buy. I can buy a 2000 point space marine army for about 400+ dollars less.

Counterpoint: It is just silly for people to buy or sell bottled water. You can buy tap water for practically free. Price is not the only decider in making buying decisions.

As Catyrpelius said above, some people enjoy that it is rare/unusual and purchase accordingly. The same reason that people buy inferior / more expensive products because of their implied rarity / status in the communities in which they exist.

Could GW make more by just making actual new minis? Sure. Are there some things happening behind the scenes that we don't know about? Quite possibly.

The fact that we haven't even gotten any failcast sisters yet is insulting. I mean I will try to find metal over it any day of the week, but GW seems to think it's great. The original old crappy necron lord got a finecast, Ogre Kingdoms is entirely non-metal now. Why can we not even get Uriah or Celestine in resin?


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pretre wrote:Counterpoint: It is just silly for people to buy or sell bottled water.

Unless the water in area I am in has dangerous contaminants or high sulfur content, I subscribe to that view. I honestly have no idea why people buy it, even when they explain why it always sounds snooty, silly, or stupid. But then again I spend money on GW products, so I think that makes me the bigger idiot.

Armless Failure wrote:The fact that we haven't even gotten any failcast sisters yet is insulting. I mean I will try to find metal over it any day of the week, but GW seems to think it's great. The original old crappy necron lord got a finecast, Ogre Kingdoms is entirely non-metal now. Why can we not even get Uriah or Celestine in resin?

Not sure if serious.

So you just decried Finecast for being bad and then questioned why you can't have some too? I think that's called being conflicted.

pretre wrote:Counterpoint: It is just silly for people to buy or sell bottled water.

Unless the water in area I am in has dangerous contaminants or high sulfur content, I subscribe to that view. I honestly have no idea why people buy it, even when they explain why it always sounds snooty, silly, or stupid. But then again I spend money on GW products, so I think that makes me the bigger idiot.

Well, of course, the point is that price is not the sole reason for purchasing motives or a large number of industries would not exist.

pretre wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:The fact that we haven't even gotten any failcast sisters yet is insulting. I mean I will try to find metal over it any day of the week, but GW seems to think it's great. The original old crappy necron lord got a finecast, Ogre Kingdoms is entirely non-metal now. Why can we not even get Uriah or Celestine in resin?

Not sure if serious.

So you just decried Finecast for being bad and then questioned why you can't have some too? I think that's called being conflicted.

I dislike Finecast, this is true. My point, which I muddied with my dislike, is that everyone and there brother is getting new finecasts even if it is the exact same sculpt that they have had in metal forever. Even making one of the special characters finecast as a token would show that they actually care about the army as opposed to the rather common view that it was done merely to rotate out C:WH. Yes I hate Finecast, but since it is the new medium for limited releases it's better than nothing.

pretre wrote:

pretre wrote:Counterpoint: It is just silly for people to buy or sell bottled water.

Unless the water in area I am in has dangerous contaminants or high sulfur content, I subscribe to that view. I honestly have no idea why people buy it, even when they explain why it always sounds snooty, silly, or stupid. But then again I spend money on GW products, so I think that makes me the bigger idiot.

Well, of course, the point is that price is not the sole reason for purchasing motives or a large number of industries would not exist.

Armless Failure wrote:
I dislike Finecast, this is true. My point, which I muddied with my dislike, is that everyone and there brother is getting new finecasts even if it is the exact same sculpt that they have had in metal forever. Even making one of the special characters finecast as a token would show that they actually care about the army as opposed to the rather common view that it was done merely to rotate out C:WH. Yes I hate Finecast, but since it is the new medium for limited releases it's better than nothing.

I think that lack of Finecast (which I happen to like) is a good sign; actually pointing to that plastics are on the table just not "soon". While I agree with Pretre that price is not the sole motivation for buying things, I think in this case it is a significant factor. I have heard many people say I would buy Sisters' models if they weren't metal or were cheaper here, other forums, and offline. That is anecdotal of course, but its what I have witnessed.

I don't think GW has much faith in the sisters. The army never sold when most miniatures were metal, so the cost differential these days is somewhat irrelevant. It actually surprises me that the Sisters haven't gotten the Squat treatment, as they're both hold-overs from the Rogue Trader days that never really gelled with the rest of the canon fluff.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I don't think GW has much faith in the sisters.

ZING!

The army never sold when most miniatures were metal, so the cost differential these days is somewhat irrelevant.

Citation needed.

It actually surprises me that the Sisters haven't gotten the Squat treatment, as they're both hold-overs from the Rogue Trader days that never really gelled with the rest of the canon fluff.

Umm, you want to elaborate how sisters don't 'gell' with the rest of the canon fluff?

There have been rumours of plastic sisters ever since I first started playing 40K back in 2003 or thereabouts. Eight years later, I am definitely in a "I'll believe it when I see it" frame of mind as regards this rumour.

I used to constantly worry the SoB would go the way of the squats, but it seems to me that they're here to stay albeit in an under-supported manner as ever. Although I must admit that it is their marginalisation that appeals to me -- I gravitate towards obscure armies.

EDIT: Actually, I think it was closer to 2000 or maybe even 1999 when I first started into 40K.

It's actually just "gel". Gelled gets a second L through the bizarre conventions of the English language, lol.

But where to start? They come from a picture used in the original Rogue Trade which showed a Space Nun (wimple and all) in power armor blasting a Space Marine, probably for making some kind of rude comment. Space Marines back in the old RT days were comprised of criminals and psychopaths and other such scum who had been brainwashed and indoctrinated. But, I imagine some of the original personality remained. Guy probably had it coming. Of course, he was one of the Rainbow Warriors. Maybe the Sisters are as intolerant as everyone else, heh. The paragraph of fluff they got in that book made them out to be some kind of Space Internal Affairs, administering genetic tests and such. Kinda like a mini-inquisition.

At some point, however, GW decided to take the hodge-podge of disconnected fluff from Rogue Trader, and make sense out of it with a coherent narrative. Enter the transition to 2nd Edition. Space Marines become super warriors, selected from childhood, implanted with all sorts of cool things, including the Black Carapace. Power Armor becomes incredibly rare, used very little outside the Astartes, and by extremely powerful individuals. Why is this? Because the fluff for Power Armor now says that without a Black Carapace, it doesn't function nearly as well and the suits themselves are difficult to make and maintain. The Sisters, in the mean time, get no such fluff, barely more than few paragraphs and just become the incomprehensibly power armored female semi-equivalent of Space Marines, without any of the things that make Marines. Weaker, less well trained, and more fragile. Seems like where you'd want to concentrate your most valuable resources. Eventually they get a Codex in 2nd Edition, but it's hardly any better. It has a bunch of hodge-podge fluff of its own trying to explain the back story of the Sisters. Including the silly part of the Ecclesiarchy being allowed "no men under arms" being the reasoning for the Sisters. It's also incredibly silly. Form fitting corset power armor, double bolt pistols... Makes trucker hat biker dwarves look downright serious by comparison.

The Squats were eliminated because the guys at GW didn't think they'd done them right, that they were a bit silly, and out of context with the rest of the universe. To me, and I'm sure you hold a contrary position, the Sisters fall into that same trap. Their fluff doesn't make sense. Their whole concept seems pretty ridiculous, and they've never gotten any comprehensive model support. So I wonder why GW keeps them around. There are literally more Squat models than total SoB models. And the Squats more or less ceased to exist around 1992 or so.

Yep, going to end up a difference of opinion. I doubt that there are more Squat models than total SOB models, but go ahead and prove me wrong.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's actually just "gel". Gelled gets a second L through the bizarre conventions of the English language, lol.

But where to start? They come from a picture used in the original Rogue Trade which showed a Space Nun (wimple and all) in power armor blasting a Space Marine, probably for making some kind of rude comment. Space Marines back in the old RT days were comprised of criminals and psychopaths and other such scum who had been brainwashed and indoctrinated. But, I imagine some of the original personality remained. Guy probably had it coming. Of course, he was one of the Rainbow Warriors. Maybe the Sisters are as intolerant as everyone else, heh. The paragraph of fluff they got in that book made them out to be some kind of Space Internal Affairs, administering genetic tests and such. Kinda like a mini-inquisition.

At some point, however, GW decided to take the hodge-podge of disconnected fluff from Rogue Trader, and make sense out of it with a coherent narrative. Enter the transition to 2nd Edition. Space Marines become super warriors, selected from childhood, implanted with all sorts of cool things, including the Black Carapace. Power Armor becomes incredibly rare, used very little outside the Astartes, and by extremely powerful individuals. Why is this? Because the fluff for Power Armor now says that without a Black Carapace, it doesn't function nearly as well and the suits themselves are difficult to make and maintain. The Sisters, in the mean time, get no such fluff, barely more than few paragraphs and just become the incomprehensibly power armored female semi-equivalent of Space Marines, without any of the things that make Marines. Weaker, less well trained, and more fragile. Seems like where you'd want to concentrate your most valuable resources. Eventually they get a Codex in 2nd Edition, but it's hardly any better. It has a bunch of hodge-podge fluff of its own trying to explain the back story of the Sisters. Including the silly part of the Ecclesiarchy being allowed "no men under arms" being the reasoning for the Sisters. It's also incredibly silly. Form fitting corset power armor, double bolt pistols... Makes trucker hat biker dwarves look downright serious by comparison.

The Squats were eliminated because the guys at GW didn't think they'd done them right, that they were a bit silly, and out of context with the rest of the universe. To me, and I'm sure you hold a contrary position, the Sisters fall into that same trap. Their fluff doesn't make sense. Their whole concept seems pretty ridiculous, and they've never gotten any comprehensive model support. So I wonder why GW keeps them around. There are literally more Squat models than total SoB models. And the Squats more or less ceased to exist around 1992 or so.

I always thought that the sisters were an amusing bit of fluff, and make as much sense as anything else when it comes to an Ecclesiarchal fighting force. and they fill a mechanics gap of short to mid-range firepower. The miniatures look great, and the army's theme of "nuns with guns" is just too awesome to not continue to exist. Also women are significantly under represented in the far future, especially amongst humans. The SoB are alliteratively an Affirmative Action Army, and that works.

pretre wrote:Yep, going to end up a difference of opinion. I doubt that there are more Squat models than total SOB models, but go ahead and prove me wrong.

Including vehicles, there appear to be approximately 50 Sisters of Battle miniatures.

There are 32 individual squat models on this page of the 1989 Citadel catalog alone.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894201squats.htm
Another 28 here: http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894201squats.htm

Adding the figures from the 1991 catalog:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2052squatscmd.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2053squats.htm
24 more (with plastic arms): http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894204squats.htm
A box of plastics: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2060squatplastics.htm
more Exo-Armor: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2059squatsexos.htm
Chaos Squats: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2058squatschaos.htm
Squats with Heavy Weapons: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2057squatsheavys.htm
Bikers: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2056squatsbikers.htm

There's some duplication in those additional pages, but you can see my point. This doesn't even include Epic (where the Sisters have no figures), the Mole Mortar, the Thudd Gun, as well as adventurer models and other such.


And let's be realistic. This one dude is harder than the entire Sisters of Battle range.

Yea, squats have more miniatures than Sisters, Necron and Tau.

andrewm9 wrote:Its just silly for GW to expect this army to sell when its so expensive to buy.

Do you really think that a plastic army will be cheaper? Expect 5 Sororitas to cost 26.00 € like with most other ranges.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I don't think GW has much faith in the sisters. The army never sold when most miniatures were metal, so the cost differential these days is somewhat irrelevant. It actually surprises me that the Sisters haven't gotten the Squat treatment, as they're both hold-overs from the Rogue Trader days that never really gelled with the rest of the canon fluff.

Right, only two things would be more absurd thatn releasing Sororitas: Releasing Grey Knights and Dark Eldar! Wait!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

pretre wrote:Yep, going to end up a difference of opinion. I doubt that there are more Squat models than total SOB models, but go ahead and prove me wrong.

Including vehicles, there appear to be approximately 50 Sisters of Battle miniatures.

There are 32 individual squat models on this page of the 1989 Citadel catalog alone.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894201squats.htm
Another 28 here: http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894201squats.htm

Those are the same page. So 32.

Adding the figures from the 1991 catalog:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2052squatscmd.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2053squats.htm

These models are repeats of the ones on the first two links you posted.

24 more (with plastic arms): http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894204squats.htm

There's only 18 on that page.

A box of plastics: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2060squatplastics.htm

4

more Exo-Armor: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2059squatsexos.htm

2 more since one is a repeat.

Chaos Squats: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2058squatschaos.htm

Umm. Not sure if we'll count this one, but 10.

Squats with Heavy Weapons: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2057squatsheavys.htm
Bikers: http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2056squatsbikers.htm

6 and 10

There's some duplication in those additional pages, but you can see my point. This doesn't even include Epic (where the Sisters have no figures), the Mole Mortar, the Thudd Gun, as well as adventurer models and other such.

So about 72, not counting chaos Squats. We'll say 80 to be fair.


Sisters have:
4 Repentia (mistress and 3 sculpts)
Hospitaller
2 Canoness (new and old)
Immo
Rhino
Exo
5 Superiors (with Bolter/HolyS, CS/PP, Bolter/PM,CS/BP, PS/Bolter
Dialogus
2 Seraphim
1 Seraphim with HF
3 Seraphim Sup
2 Penitent Engines
Shrine
Celestine
Uriah
Kyrinov
3 Banners (Blessed Banner, SI, Normal)
Heavies (Flamer, HB, MM)
2 Flamer
2 Meltas
2 Storm Bolters
2 Missionaries
7 Bolter Sculpts
3 Priests
10 Inquisitor Models from C: WH days including Retinue
10+ Redemptionist Sculpts (usable as Sisters models in C: CA and C:WH with Zealot rules)
4 Frateris Sculpts
2 DCA Sculpts
2 Crusader Sculpts
2 Arco Sculpts

80. So pretty close there.


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Oh wait! Old Immolator and Rhino. 82.


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And I don't really count Epic, since it is a different game. Otherwise we could count inquisitor for Sisters.

Kroothawk wrote:Do you really think that a plastic army will be cheaper? Expect 5 Sororitas to cost 26.00 € like with most other ranges.

Considering that 5 Grey Knights with all their weapon options costs 33$, yes 9 (which I find to be comparbale in terms or bling and guns needed). I pay 14$ for a single heavy bolter and 2 for double that. Grey Knights can have 2 psycannons in that 5 model box for 5 dollars more. Meltguns are ~10 dollars each, Sister Superiors 12.25 and list goes on. Seraphim are even more at 12.25 each for the cheap ones. I expect that the saving in terms of all the other models one buys to make an army will be significantly cheaper. My list that I gave above would be 85 dollars cheaper on just the Battle Sister models (50 models) alone not counting a plastic Seraphim kit. If we assume a similar price on those we talking another savings of about 67 dollars for just one unit of 10 Seraphim. I can buy almost 25 more models at those prices on that savings alone.

Not to mention all the extra BITS! That's the true glory of plastic kits.


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To back andrewm9 up here:
5 Sisters right now run you:
2 x 5.25 for Bolters
1 x 12.25 for Sup
1 x 9.9 for Special
1 x 14 for Heavy
$46 new for 5 girls.

I think that the new sisters will be of the 10 in a box variety for about 29-35 (similar to DE), unless they include Seraphim bits in the same box and then they'll be the $33 for 5. Either way? We win.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I don't think GW has much faith in the sisters. The army never sold when most miniatures were metal, so the cost differential these days is somewhat irrelevant. It actually surprises me that the Sisters haven't gotten the Squat treatment, as they're both hold-overs from the Rogue Trader days that never really gelled with the rest of the canon fluff.

How are SoB a hang over from the RT era seeing as they first got a miniature line and codex at the end of 2nd edition? They were the last army to get a codex before 3rd ed.

pretre wrote:Those are the same page. So 32.

Sorry, mispasted.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894202squats.htm So, 60, just on those two pages.

Your list of Sisters of Battle includes non-Sisters models. Which is especially dishonest because a Witch Hunters army doesn't technically even require any Sisters in it. And I left off the fact that Squat armies could take Imperial vehicles as well. If you're going to give the Rhino as a Sisters of Battle miniature (lol) then it also counts as a Squat miniature too because it was part of the Squat Army list. Could include every Commisar model, and Land Raiders, and Tarantulas... Instead, let's not be daft. The fact is, there are more existing Squats models. The ones I posted weren't all of them, just the easiest and most accessible pictures, and because their number alone is obviously larger than that of the Sisters. And the fact that they had multi-part plastics...


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Howard A Treesong wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I don't think GW has much faith in the sisters. The army never sold when most miniatures were metal, so the cost differential these days is somewhat irrelevant. It actually surprises me that the Sisters haven't gotten the Squat treatment, as they're both hold-overs from the Rogue Trader days that never really gelled with the rest of the canon fluff.

How are SoB a hang over from the RT era seeing as they first got a miniature line and codex at the end of 2nd edition? They were the last army to get a codex before 3rd ed.

The Sororitas are mentioned in Rogue Trader, and all of their models are loosely based on the picture in that book of a Space Nun. And the Sisters of Battle have an entry in the 40K Black List codex that came with the 2nd Edition boxed set as well as short fluff in the Codex Imperialis. Them finally getting miniatures and a Codex was a result of fans asking for one. Dark Eldar didn't exist back in the old days either, but enough people showed up to GW events with converted armies of them that GW figured they could try and make some money off them.

Sister Sin from Rogue Trader: http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/lordhumongous/rainbow.jpg

You can find the entire page with the short paragraph on them if you're industrious enough to Google search Sororitas Rogue Trader. I just don't know if it is kosher to direct link pages from what is GW IP.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Sorry, mispasted.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat89/c894202squats.htm

Your list of Sisters of Battle includes non-Sisters models. Which is especially dishonest because a Witch Hunters army doesn't technically even require any Sisters in it. And I left off the fact that Squat armies could take Imperial vehicles as well. If you're going to give the Rhino as a Sisters of Battle miniature (lol) then it also counts as a Squat miniature too because it was part of the Squat Army list. Could include every Commisar model, and Land Raiders, and Tarantulas... Instead, let's not be daft. The fact is, there are more existing Squats models. The ones I posted weren't all of them, just the easiest and most accessible pictures, and because their number alone is obviously larger than that of the Sisters. And the fact that they had multi-part plastics...

Remove the rhinos then. That's two models. Everything else was Sisters models or C:WH models. And I didn't count Chimera, LR, Storm Troopers, etc. The new link you posted is duplicated by http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2053squats.htm. I also provided an actual count rather than just how many minis were on the page, which is creating mostly duplicates between those catalogs.





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Either way, it is really irrelevant. GW decided that Squats were silly and out of character and that SoB were right for the universe.

I can see you want to be petulant about it, lol. Sorry if I touched a sore spot. I was just proving the point that you asked for. So, to be exactingly specific, the total number of released Squat models and race specific vehicles is greater than the number of females in power armor with fleur de lys symbols and their specifically associated vehicle models.

Honestly, I miss the Squats, but they were also from a bygone day of a sillier 40K universe. My rifle company has a squat in its command squad. At least the sisters get some kind of basic support. Mostly they get to be slaughtered or sacrificed to Chaos in fluff, but hey, at least they didn't get inexplicably eaten by Tyranids off screen.

To the original "Multi-melta on a Rhino" crew:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I can see you want to be petulant about it, lol. Sorry if I touched a sore spot. I was just proving the point that you asked for. So, to be exactingly specific, the total number of released Squat models and race specific vehicles is greater than the number of females in power armor with fleur de lys symbols and their specifically associated vehicle models.

Well sure. If we limit it like that, you're going to have more models. But that still excludes SOB specific models (ecclesiarchy, repentia, etc).

I'm sorry that your army of choice got squatted (too soon?). I guess quantity of models didn't equal quality of army.

Actually, I was allowing the inclusion of Sisters Repentia, but the ecclesiarchy models aren't Sisters of Battle. Like I said, the Witch Hunters codex gives you the option to replace the Sisters with Marines, or to take Imperial Guard. If that's the case, then the Ecclesiarchy models, Inquisitors, etc, are Witch Hunters models, not Sisters. Witch Hunters gave 4th Edition rules to the Sisters, but Witch Hunters was its own army, independent of them as troop types. Some of the models offered as part of Codex: Witch Hunters army actually predate that Codex anyway, like the Preachers and Confessors. Witch Hunters was a catch-all kind of codex for people to filed their Inquisitors and other models that had fallen by the wayside in other armies.

And I never owned a Squat army. I just used them as an example since they are another faction that was long ignored, poorly supported, and eventually gotten rid of entirely. I just like them mostly out of nostalgia for the old school game and their place in Fantasy in Space 40K. I've never owned a 40K Ork army (though I had Fantasy Orcs), and yet it's my favorite faction of them all just for the sheer fun and character of them as well. I think the Sororitas would have been much better modeled and fit into the canon better as a sort of Female Stormtroopers list. After all, that's more in line with the way they are written.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:At some point, however, GW decided to take the hodge-podge of disconnected fluff from Rogue Trader, and make sense out of it with a coherent narrative. Enter the transition to 2nd Edition. Space Marines become super warriors, selected from childhood, implanted with all sorts of cool things, including the Black Carapace. Power Armor becomes incredibly rare, used very little outside the Astartes, and by extremely powerful individuals. Why is this? Because the fluff for Power Armor now says that without a Black Carapace, it doesn't function nearly as well and the suits themselves are difficult to make and maintain. The Sisters, in the mean time, get no such fluff, barely more than few paragraphs and just become the incomprehensibly power armored female semi-equivalent of Space Marines, without any of the things that make Marines. Weaker, less well trained, and more fragile. Seems like where you'd want to concentrate your most valuable resources. Eventually they get a Codex in 2nd Edition, but it's hardly any better. It has a bunch of hodge-podge fluff of its own trying to explain the back story of the Sisters. Including the silly part of the Ecclesiarchy being allowed "no men under arms" being the reasoning for the Sisters. It's also incredibly silly. Form fitting corset power armor, double bolt pistols... Makes trucker hat biker dwarves look downright serious by comparison.

I think you've gotten a few things wrong here.

*dramatically blows dust off imaginary oversized fluff tome*

- It was never claimed that power armour now "doesn't function nearly as well", it's just that the person inside still moves and feels as being enclosed in a big suit of armour. It requires calibration and training to get it right and misses out on certain advanced features, whereas Space Marines are supposedly able to move as if naked and enjoy a dozen additional gadgets. The difference in armour protection is zero.
- Power armour is indeed difficult to make and maintain, that is why so few people outside the Astartes have them. There are few enough Inquisitors and SoB around to warrant getting the best.
- They are (physically) weaker and (somewhat) less well trained, but they are also more reliable - both politically as well as mentally. No geneseed corruption, absolute loyalty, resistant against Chaos. Big bonus versus "loose cannon" Marines, against which they are at times deployed. Successfully.
- The Ecclesiarchy is quite rich, but limited in what it is allowed to field as a military force. The logical conclusion is to make sure that this small military force receives the best that money (and influence) can buy.
- The "no men under arms" gap in the Decree Passive is rather fitting for a setting as "gothicrazy" as 40k and not any less reasonable than entire armies being lost in bureaucracy or reinforcements arriving at a battle 50 years late or Marines eating an enemy to steal his memories.
- The "corset" isn't an integral part of the armour, only decoration (or "dust cover" if you will). And why should the basic concept of power armour not allow for form-fitting suits? We're almost ready to build this stuff in the real world, it doesn't take much miniaturization to get to the 40k level (where we also have bionics that require a similar tech-level).
- I will also point out that SoB armour is actually only form-fitting if you look at Blanche's damn high-heel drawing; there are other official artworks where it looks considerably bigger. Marine armour only looks uberhuge because (aside from looking cool, which is the actual design decision behind it) Marines themselves are huge and Astartes armour is packed with dozens of additional gadgets such as advanced life support and drug-dispensers, waste recycler, etc. As far as size is concerned, I consider "digilasers" and floating skulls with miniature antigrav generators to be more questionable.

But hey, we can't all like everything. I understand that many may see the SoB as being cliché. It's all a matter of interpreting the setting and personal preferences.

[edit] Actually, scrap that - I vaguely remember reading that power armour uses electrically motivated fibre bundles. Such a system could easily be built into your jacket and your pants.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Actually, I was allowing the inclusion of Sisters Repentia, but the ecclesiarchy models aren't Sisters of Battle. Like I said, the Witch Hunters codex gives you the option to replace the Sisters with Marines, or to take Imperial Guard. If that's the case, then the Ecclesiarchy models, Inquisitors, etc, are Witch Hunters models, not Sisters. Witch Hunters gave 4th Edition rules to the Sisters, but Witch Hunters was its own army, independent of them as troop types. Some of the models offered as part of Codex: Witch Hunters army actually predate that Codex anyway, like the Preachers and Confessors. Witch Hunters was a catch-all kind of codex for people to filed their Inquisitors and other models that had fallen by the wayside in other armies.

Ecclesiarchy have always been SOB models. Check the old catalogs you were quoting. Ecclesiarchy and Frateris were listed on the SoB pages and were included in 2nd Ed SoB, Black Book SoB and C:CA SoB before C:WH. And C:WH was end of 3rd, not 4th, I believe. It wasn't a 'catch-all' codex. It, along with CH, was released to encourage interest in the Inquisitor game. Inquisitors were allies only before then.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Sororitas are mentioned in Rogue Trader, and all of their models are loosely based on the picture in that book of a Space Nun. And the Sisters of Battle have an entry in the 40K Black List codex that came with the 2nd Edition boxed set as well as short fluff in the Codex Imperialis. Them finally getting miniatures and a Codex was a result of fans asking for one. Dark Eldar didn't exist back in the old days either, but enough people showed up to GW events with converted armies of them that GW figured they could try and make some money off them.

Sister Sin from Rogue Trader: http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/lordhumongous/rainbow.jpg

You can find the entire page with the short paragraph on them if you're industrious enough to Google search Sororitas Rogue Trader. I just don't know if it is kosher to direct link pages from what is GW IP.

I know sororitas existed under RT largely in the background, but they only had odd figures. One of the first is here at the bottom numbered #27, I've seen her in adverts described as Sister or Battle Sister, IIRC. But she just looks likes she's in skinny space marine armour.

The point was that they didn't really come into the game with a codex and range of models until the end of 2nd ed, Grey Knights also had had rules under RT and 2nd ed, but didn't get their codex until later, 3rd/4th, I'm not sure when.

BTW - why is sister sin killing a space marine??

Actually, the term they originally used was "relatively useless" without the Black Carapace. Your tome isn't dusty enough it seems.

However, that aside, nearly all of the Sisters armor looks pretty form fitting, boob plates, and all.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/7/3/1234127/three%20sisters.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gHu9a4YTj38/TrlD9y-gutI/AAAAAAAADCI/GbiRwhbMwdk/s1600/sisters_of_battle.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/40K/SistersRedBlack.jpg
As far as the what "should" or "shouldn't" be within the realm of miniaturization is somewhat suspect. After all, most things in the 40K universe are pretty large, with external cabling and heavy duty materials. Things like digital lasers are alien tech, not human. I mean, if it's accepted that power armor is big and bulky (your first point), it seems difficult to believe it can also be form fitting and miniaturized.


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Howard A Treesong wrote:BTW - why is sister sin killing a space marine??

Nobody knows, lol. Maybe she's just a bitch.

The again, the Rainbow Warriors Chapter of Space Marines disappeared at some point, so maybe heresy.

Power armour is big and bulky because Imperials tend to slap dozens of kilos of armour plating and subsystems onto it - the basic system, the fibre bundles, would actually be pretty slim. Given that the Sisters' power armour is basically a "lite" variant of the Marine version that provides as much armoured protection (2 inches, if you want to go by the fluff in the Angels of Death Codex) but foregoes many of its advanced subsystems, I don't find it hard to believe at all. In fact, you could even say Marine armour is pretty slim itself, when you keep the physiology of a Marine's body in mind.

As far as Sister Sin is concerned, the following is an excerpt from the 3E Codex WD Design Notes, an article in WD292 by Andy Hoare, talking about the Sororitas' history (both as a product as well as within the setting) and what their missions are:
"The Rogue Trader art even shows a Battle Sister exacting that vengeance upon a Space Marine, so this seemed particularly appropriate. In fact, the Space Marine is from the "Rainbow Warriors" Chapter, and as we haven't heard of them for some time I guess the Sisters' mission was successful!

So, yes, heresy.

Why so much angst over Sisters of Battle armour?

There are plenty of other female models in 40K that are slightly sexualised but don't get flagged up.

ie:
Eldar howling Banshees
Eldar guardians (revealing tight mesh body glove armour)
Dark Eldar Warriors
Dark Eldar Wyches

There are also other sci fi universes that whilst (claiming) they're more serious than 40k still have this without any logical justification; but ultimately isn't flagged up. ie Mass effect and femsheps armour

Trying to realistically represent space nuns with gunz is kind of doomed to fail and theres no reason to get so riled over minor ascetic design of an armies models.

Fluff wise, they can change whatever they want. Currently, FFG rogue trader and Deathwatch have it where the armour with the black carapace becomes like a second skin to the space marine and offers no impediment to his superhuman reflexes. Sisters of battle aren't encumbered per sae since they have a large power pack and are moving slower so their is less pressure on the armour.

Also, marines, are huge! Titus is meant to be 700lbs+7ft tall, and in HH Logan is described as being proportioned in the chest like on the armour. Thats not all armour, most suits are filled by the warrior himself who is significantly bigger than a petite sister of battle.

I'd expect any new plastic models to be bulkier than the recent dark ledar models to emphasise the latters elegence and grace, but they'll probably stick with the general profile as its established in most artwork.

SoB totally need a plastic kit. Hands down. They would be one of the coolest armies ever.

I think sisters fit 40K lore perfectly. They epitomise the crazy religious side of the Imperium like no other army.

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.


This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

Crimson wrote:

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.

Have you thought of using Dark Eldar warriors? I think the armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks.

Howard A Treesong wrote:BTW - why is sister sin killing a space marine??

A large part of it is an 1980s injoke on the Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior in an operation by French (fleur de lys, etc..) foreign intelligence codenamed "Opération Satanique", which was prepared by Christine Cabon, a female french officer who went fugitive for a while after the events.

That said, you might also have a look at the recent Space Wolves Codex. Space Wolves and Sister of Battles bloodily clash there too over "differences" in their opinions and the Wolves' perceived lack of faith (though its the Wolves that jump them there, attacking the Ecclesiarchy by ambush and without warning or specific reason). Presumably, Sister's consider alot of things traitors and heretics, even when the Imperium at large (or even only the Inquistion) doesn't.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Have you thought of using Dark Eldar warriors? I think the armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks.

Yes I have, and I made an inquisitor out of them. But it is too much work to do an entire army that way.

Crimson wrote:
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

I would say so. The "elite level" of their equipment has been a major point of their fluff, and considering how much things they have already lost I'd hate to see them being relegated to become "slightly better IG" just because to have Space Marines stand out more. Carapace could easily make an appearance for novice squads, though. I would also like to see the "meatshield" militia pop up again.

As far as Faith is concerned, I do think that this aspect can indeed make a huge difference to an army, it boils down to how they are incorporated - i.e. how they can be used and how much they are able to influence the game. It is rules such as these that set all of 40k's armies apart more than a 1 point difference in some stat line, imo. At least mechanics-wise. Stylewise, I would play SoB even when they'd only be yet another variant of Marines. At least I'd much prefer this to making them even closer to IG. Without power armour, some of that "knightly flair" would just get lost, imo.

Crimson wrote:
This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

I don't know, I don't find them that similar to marines. The difference in toughness and limited weaponry do make a pretty significant difference. I loved playing SoB back in the day, but played one battle with marines and immediately knew it wasn't the army for me. I found the play style to be quite different (although it was BT I tried, not vanilla marines, maybe sisters are closer to vanilla marines?)

I agree with your comments on some form of carapace armoured sister or auxilliary unit -- which is why I liked the inclusion of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and used them extensively while it lasted. The exclusion of the storm troopers is one of the major things holding me back from having another go with Sisters (I'm playing IG now in the second life with WH40K, it was back in 3rd ed. when I used sisters and missed-out on 4th ed. entirely). As Lynata says, carapace armoured novices could be an idea. Meatshield militia would be cool alongside the battle conclave. A special character that allows battle conclaves to be considered troops similar to how Coteaz makes inquisitorial henchmen troops in C:GK would be cool, too.

On the topic of using Dark Eldar (or Eldar?) minis for sisters, which models from those lines are wearing power armour equivalent?

Zweischneid wrote:Presumably, Sister's consider alot of things traitors and heretics, even when the Imperium at large (or even only the Inquistion) doesn't.

Aye, though it always depends a little on the spiritual guidance they receive from the Canoness that commands them at a time.

Here's an interesting snippet from the official Armageddon campaign website: http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084051/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/shroud.html

NWansbutter wrote:I agree with your comments on some form of carapace armoured sister or auxilliary unit -- which is why I liked the inclusion of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and used them extensively while it lasted.

Understandable. Although I never used them, ISTs are a cool concept and just look stunning, designwise, so I can relate.
I wonder how a carapace unit with lasguns would fare - they'd have better protection than Guardsmen, but worse weapons than Storm Troopers. Interesting go-between or fail? Would it just hinge on the point cost, or would they require some sort of special rule to make them useful?

NWansbutter wrote:On the topic of using Dark Eldar (or Eldar?) minis for sisters, which models from those lines are wearing power armour equivalent?

Maybe that was referring to counts-as Repentia? I know some people don't really like their BDSM'ish look, even though there's some fluff behind it. That said, the very first Repentia still wore parts of their armour, but between this amazon cliché and the fetish girls, I have to say I prefer the latter, as it just comes off as more grimdark.

Lynata wrote:Understandable. Although I never used them, ISTs are a cool concept and just look stunning, designwise, so I can relate.
I wonder how a carapace unit with lasguns would fare - they'd have better protection than Guardsmen, but worse weapons than Storm Troopers. Interesting go-between or fail? Would it just hinge on the point cost, or would they require some sort of special rule to make them useful?

Yes, I love the Kasrkin models especially.

As for carapace with lasguns, that's basically what the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers were ... I mean, hellguns are just lasguns with AP5 which is as good as a lasgun except in Guard-on-Guard incidents or fighting Orks. They were still fine, IMO. Most of my opponents in those "good old days" were MEQ.

Lynata wrote:

NWansbutter wrote:On the topic of using Dark Eldar (or Eldar?) minis for sisters, which models from those lines are wearing power armour equivalent?

Maybe that was referring to counts-as Repentia? I know some people don't really like their BDSM'ish look, even though there's some fluff behind it. That said, the very first Repentia still wore parts of their armour, but between this amazon cliché and the fetish girls, I have to say I prefer the latter, as it just comes off as more grimdark.

No, I think Totalwar1402 (who first mentioned Dark Eldar minis) was referring to regular battle sisters because s/he said: "I think [Dark Eldar] armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks."

NWansbutter wrote:
No, I think Totalwar1402 (who first mentioned Dark Eldar minis) was referring to regular battle sisters because s/he said: "I think [Dark Eldar] armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks."

Something like my female inquisitor here, perhaps?


DE armour has that corset thing going, which is kinda similar to what SoBs have.

One thing I'd like to note, that Eldar are taller than humans, so sisters made out of DE will end up as freakishly tall.

Nice conversion.

Crimson wrote:
I think sisters fit 40K lore perfectly. They epitomise the crazy religious side of the Imperium like no other army.

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.


This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

They need to also fix the SoB to having to use heavy weapons teams too since their Power Armor by the fluff lacks the strength enhancing capabilities of the Space Marines armor. Makes no sense they can heft heavy weapons around like it's no big deal when they are only marginally stronger than an Imperial Guardsman and probably somewhat smaller framed. Carapace Sisters definitely make sense for their line troops. Keeps them as "elites" and falls more in line with the fluff since the Sisters are essentially female Storm Troopers, not female Space Marines. Let them keep Power Armor for more elite units I guess to give them some individuality as an army rather than Girl Guard.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They need to also fix the SoB to having to use heavy weapons teams too since their Power Armor by the fluff lacks the strength enhancing capabilities of the Space Marines armor. Makes no sense they can heft heavy weapons around like it's no big deal when they are only marginally stronger than an Imperial Guardsman and probably somewhat smaller framed. Carapace Sisters definitely make sense for their line troops. Keeps them as "elites" and falls more in line with the fluff since the Sisters are essentially female Storm Troopers, not female Space Marines. Let them keep Power Armor for more elite units I guess to give them some individuality as an army rather than Girl Guard.

Having lifted a 50cal machinegun before, I can say that most people serving in a military force have the strength to lift them, but firing one while standing and holding it is, not going to happen. Given that Bolter Weapons canonically do not have the kick of normal projectile weapons, I would say that given the strength enhancers present even in the sister's stripped down versions would be plenty enough. I wouldn't imagine energy weapons having much kick at all making multi-meltas a non issue, and guardsmen can lift heavy flamers, so again not a problem.

And no, sisters do not need to move their armor down to carapace, excepting elites. A) I don't want to have to rebuy my army a third time. And B) The armor may be similar to marines, but T4 is certainly noticeable enough to distinquished. They are more different from marines than CSM are from marines. Giving them access to inquisitors again would be awesome, and a slightly cheaper Inq stormtroopers, or novice sisters would be grand (though carapace armored novice sisters would make them slightly more marine ripoffs).

Now sisters repentia are a unit I have an issue with. They are obviously make to make fanboys into BDSM happy, and that's just creepy. And hits last units with no defenses are not a particularly attractive option, especially without a transport option.

Armless Failure wrote:Having lifted a 50cal machinegun before, I can say that most people serving in a military force have the strength to lift them, but firing one while standing and holding it is, not going to happen. Given that Bolter Weapons canonically do not have the kick of normal projectile weapons, I would say that given the strength enhancers present even in the sister's stripped down versions would be plenty enough.

A .50cal weighs almost 85lbs without the tripod, and unloaded. Yeah, I mean, sure, most reasonably strong people could lift it, and definitely carry it. But in any manner closer to a firing stance that is entirely arm supported like the models show? And then with a giant belt of ammunition attached to it? Doubt it. I've carried the Marine Corps' heavy weapons. It isn't fun, lol. Most people (including real world Marines) would have a hard time shoulder firing a medium machinegun, let alone a heavy one.

The problem with the Sisters models is they're just outdated. And while I sympathize with the idea of re-buying armies, the question was how to make them better fit the fluff. Besides, existing Sisters don't really look all that "power armor-ey" except for the backpacks. Take the backpacks off, and they might as well have carapace armor on, lol.

Arbites:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Rob_Jedi/Work%20In%20Progress/Arbites.jpg

Sisters:
http://www.luxions-workshop.com/sob/images/Blue_Robe-SoB_0101.jpg

Existing Sisters models could be used. New plastics would just be modeled without the power backbacks. Heavy weapons teams just get mounted on larger bases (essentially what IGuard players had to do with their old models).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:Having lifted a 50cal machinegun before, I can say that most people serving in a military force have the strength to lift them, but firing one while standing and holding it is, not going to happen. Given that Bolter Weapons canonically do not have the kick of normal projectile weapons, I would say that given the strength enhancers present even in the sister's stripped down versions would be plenty enough.

A .50cal weighs almost 85lbs without the tripod, and unloaded. Yeah, I mean, sure, most reasonably strong people could lift it, and definitely carry it. But in any manner closer to a firing stance that is entirely arm supported like the models show? And then with a giant belt of ammunition attached to it? Doubt it. I've carried the Marine Corps' heavy weapons. It isn't fun, lol. Most people (including real world Marines) would have a hard time shoulder firing a medium machinegun, let alone a heavy one.

The problem with the Sisters models is they're just outdated. And while I sympathize with the idea of re-buying armies, the question was how to make them better fit the fluff. Besides, existing Sisters don't really look all that "power armor-ey" except for the backpacks. Take the backpacks off, and they might as well have carapace armor on, lol.

Arbites:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Rob_Jedi/Work%20In%20Progress/Arbites.jpg

Sisters:
http://www.luxions-workshop.com/sob/images/Blue_Robe-SoB_0101.jpg

Existing Sisters models could be used. New plastics would just be modeled without the power backbacks. Heavy weapons teams just get mounted on larger bases (essentially what IGuard players had to do with their old models).

Well if I had to base how tough a material was by how it looked I woudln't think that a Leman Russ' front armor equalled a Land Raider's at all. For that matter a SM's armor looks no more impressive than an Arbite's either. The Space Marine is just taller and wider than the Arbites. Its about what the material is made of. A painted sheet of armaplas (carapace) looks much like a painted sheet of ceramite or admantium for that matter.

A .50cal weighs almost 85lbs without the tripod, and unloaded. Yeah, I mean, sure, most reasonably strong people could lift it, and definitely carry it. But in any manner closer to a firing stance that is entirely arm supported like the models show? And then with a giant belt of ammunition attached to it? Doubt it. I've carried the Marine Corps' heavy weapons. It isn't fun, lol. Most people (including real world Marines) would have a hard time shoulder firing a medium machinegun, let alone a heavy one.

andrewm9 wrote:Well if I had to base how tough a material was by how it looked I woudln't think that a Leman Russ' front armor equalled a Land Raider's at all. For that matter a SM's armor looks no more impressive than an Arbite's either. The Space Marine is just taller and wider than the Arbites. Its about what the material is made of. A painted sheet of armaplas (carapace) looks much like a painted sheet of ceramite or admantium for that matter.

I think you missed the point. It was that changing the armor of the Sisters in game wouldn't mean having to abandon the models.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:Well if I had to base how tough a material was by how it looked I woudln't think that a Leman Russ' front armor equalled a Land Raider's at all. For that matter a SM's armor looks no more impressive than an Arbite's either. The Space Marine is just taller and wider than the Arbites. Its about what the material is made of. A painted sheet of armaplas (carapace) looks much like a painted sheet of ceramite or admantium for that matter.

I think you missed the point. It was that changing the armor of the Sisters in game wouldn't mean having to abandon the models.

They don't have to abandon them in the first place just to say they have power armor. They look like they have power armor to me. Their current look is fine to me.

Armless Failure wrote:The sister's power armor does include many of the same systems including some strength assistant features, even if less than a marine.

Codex: Witch Hunters:
"must forego the more advanced life support and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines"

Their armor obviously not carapace near the top (especially around the neck), and there is nothing to gain from moving the sisters down an armor grade.

The Scouts look pretty similar around the neck and they have a "carapace" armor too.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-viewimage.jsp?i=152637&m=2&w=800

As far as there being "nothing to gain", that's just a manner of opinion. I think it puts the sisters closer in line with their fluff. The Storm Troopers are the Schola Pregenium's elite, best of the best troops and they are unmodified humans wearing carapace armor. Seems pretty logical that the Sisters would be very similar to them. Being normal humans outfitted with inferior grade (yet still absurdly expensive, rare, and difficult to manufacture) power armor doesn't make sense to me. In fact, the only reason they have power armor is due to artwork from more than twenty years ago. Something that old would be scoffed at in terms of a canonicity argument here. I mean, I can't argue what you think is cool, but I think Sisters that were a bit grittier and less of a joke would be cooler than them being weaksauce, nonsensical rip-offs of Space Marines.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Codex: Witch Hunters:
"must forego the more advanced life support and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines"

They must forgo the MORE ADVANCED strength enhancing abilities, it doesn't say all of them, It does not say Forgo the strength enhancing abilities (and S3 gets that across pretty well).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Being normal humans outfitted with inferior grade (yet still absurdly expensive, rare, and difficult to manufacture) power armor doesn't make sense to me. In fact, the only reason they have power armor is due to artwork from more than twenty years ago. Something that old would be scoffed at in terms of a canonicity argument here. I mean, I can't argue what you think is cool, but I think Sisters that were a bit grittier and less of a joke would be cooler than them being weaksauce, nonsensical rip-offs of Space Marines.

SM ripoffs, hardly. Necrons are closer to marines than sisters mechanically (even after the new dex). And how does PA make them any less gritty or any more joke worthy? They already have a tank that shoots missiles out of a pipe organ, they are obviously going off "rule of cool" in a less gritty manner. Infact everyone but IG and CW Eldar are un-gritty. And this particular point:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:In fact, the only reason they have power armor is due to artwork from more than twenty years ago. Something that old would be scoffed at in terms of a canonicity argument here.

is both vague and a logical falacy (non-sequiter). Many fluff elements started out in a piece of art and grew out from there. There is plenty of fluff subsequent stating that SoB wear power armor.

Armless Failure wrote:They must forgo the MORE ADVANCED strength enhancing abilities, it doesn't say all of them, It does not say Forgo the strength enhancing abilities (and S3 gets that across pretty well).

Yup.

At least as per GW's descriptions, all power armour has always increased the user's strength (see the Rogue Trader, 2E Wargear or Inquisitor RPG books). The small frame of the SoB version simply doesn't allow the same augmentation as the Astartes variant does. It's a "lite" variant that focuses entirely on armoured protection, as the Sisters do not operate as independently as most Marine Chapters. The Angel-pattern's strength augmentation is sufficient to carry heavy weapons, whereas it doesn't make much sense to try and equal a Marine in close combat, as the latter's biological superiority will always have him come out on top anyways, so they focus on the best ways of putting rogue Marines down before they can get to them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:As far as there being "nothing to gain", that's just a manner of opinion. I think it puts the sisters closer in line with their fluff.

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce, which obviously includes powered armour. And since their duties include hunting down renegade Marine Chapters, it makes sense for them to sport similar gear, so that they don't lack behind in this aspect in addition to being "just" human.

Storm Troopers are multi-purpose assault and infiltration specialists, Sisters are dedicated shock troops with a representation role. Light infantry and heavy infantry, if you will. This is reflected in both their training as well as their gear. Robbing the SoB of the power armour they had since the days of RT just strikes me as an attempt to further elevate Space Marines beyond the small intended gap. Here's a thought: If they are supposed to be more unique, how about stopping to steal their gear and the gothic visual style of the Sisters?

Given that Sisters and Marines popped up at the same time, I just don't know where that "rip off" crap is supposed to come from. SoB are sufficiently gritty due to their background and psychology, not by nerfing them to further "Mereen Awsumness". I'm also pretty sure that GW has both artwork as well as models of Sisters that are newer than 20 years...

Lynata wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:They must forgo the MORE ADVANCED strength enhancing abilities, it doesn't say all of them, It does not say Forgo the strength enhancing abilities (and S3 gets that across pretty well).

Yup.

Yep. The abilities that the Sisters armor gives them is the strength assist that overcomes the weight of the armor itself so that they can move freely. The fact that Space Marines are freaking huge and absurdly strong is what allows them to wander around with heavy weapons. What makes the sororitas able to do it is the fact that they are poorly thought out ripoffs of Space Marines and the fact that their models are holdovers from an older edition of the game.

At least as per GW's descriptions, all power armour has always increased the user's strength (see the Rogue Trader, 2E Wargear or Inquisitor RPG books).

Nope. Rogue Trader says nothing about strength enhancement, only that the suit replicates the wearer's movements to offset its own weight. The reference in 2E Wargear is actually very specifically about the Space Marine version and refers to "his" strength. Being published in 2001, I don't think we can consider anything in the Inquisitor book as "always".

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

And since their duties include hunting down renegade Marine Chapters, it makes sense for them to sport similar gear, so that they don't lack behind in this aspect in addition to being "just" human.

They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own. So obviously there's more to hunting down renegade Space Marine Chapters than just having power armor. It might be something like supporting units and naval power. Just maybe.

Robbing the SoB of the power armour they had since the days of RT

They didn't have anything in the Rogue Trader days other than a picture and a small blurb about how they were enforcers of genetic testing. There are no game references to them in any of the published books from Rogue Trader. They don't even have any characters listed in books where astropaths had stats. In fact, they didn't even exist as models for the first ten years of the game and were only a blurb and an unfinished entry in the Black Book codex before 1997.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The abilities that the Sisters armor gives them is the strength assist that overcomes the weight of the armor itself so that they can move freely. The fact that Space Marines are freaking huge and absurdly strong is what allows them to wander around with heavy weapons. What makes the sororitas able to do it is the fact that they are poorly thought out ripoffs of Space Marines and the fact that their models are holdovers from an older edition of the game.

1) Repeated claims that Sisters are Marine ripoffs without actually dealing with the counter-argument brought against the point during it's previous statement do not constitute a reasonable debate/discussion of a point. My counter-argument to your point is that Necrons are more mechanically similar to Marines than SoB. If you think they play similarly, you have either never played sisters or played them VERY poorly. They require significantly different tactics, and their style of combat is rather unique to them.

2) The strength assist does overcome the weight of the armor, but at no point does it say that the armor's weight is the total amount the armor can move. There is no statement what so ever that makes it seem even unlikely that SoB PA has the capacity to lift an HB. We have evidence that PA does provide enough strength to carry an HB, cite your source for evidence otherwise

3) Lots of people use old models, I have about 15 metal tactical marines, does the fact that they are old and have funny looking bolters mean that they are no longer valid since they aren't wielding the bolters that look like the current ones?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Nope. Rogue Trader says nothing about strength enhancement, only that the suit replicates the wearer's movements to offset its own weight. The reference in 2E Wargear is actually very specifically about the Space Marine version and refers to "his" strength. Being published in 2001, I don't think we can consider anything in the Inquisitor book as "always".

So we can't cite official sources that don't support your argument, or we can't cite ones you don't like/haven't read?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

While probably not a direct quote, there is some text to that effect in C:WH.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

And since their duties include hunting down renegade Marine Chapters, it makes sense for them to sport similar gear, so that they don't lack behind in this aspect in addition to being "just" human.

They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own. So obviously there's more to hunting down renegade Space Marine Chapters than just having power armor. It might be something like supporting units and naval power. Just maybe.

Armless Failure wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

While probably not a direct quote, there is some text to that effect in C:WH.

Page 2, Codex Witch Hunters, 3rd Paragraph under 'The Ordo Hereticus' last sentence.

Armless Failure wrote:1) Repeated claims that Sisters are Marine ripoffs without actually dealing with the counter-argument brought against the point during it's previous statement do not constitute a reasonable debate/discussion of a point. My counter-argument to your point is that Necrons are more mechanically similar to Marines than SoB. If you think they play similarly, you have either never played sisters or played them VERY poorly. They require significantly different tactics, and their style of combat is rather unique to them.

This is irrelevant. I didn't say "plays like". I said they're just supposed to be ladymarines. Probably to mollify the people who clamored for ladymarines back in the day. But their first, half-official (in that they had no models and only nominal rules) existence began as a ripoff of Marines (10 model squads armed exactly as a Space Marine Tactical Squad), and never got much better. Heck, they are the nuns to match the Space Marines' monks. Sister Sin wasn't even a Sororitas, she just happened to be a picture the Rogue Trader guys decided fit with their fluff page on the Ecclesiarchy. RT was full of crazy stuff like that.

3) Lots of people use old models, I have about 15 metal tactical marines, does the fact that they are old and have funny looking bolters mean that they are no longer valid since they aren't wielding the bolters that look like the current ones?

Likely I have far older models than you do, some of which still get used. That has nothing to do with my point. It wasn't that the models were old, it was that they were from a different period of the game's design. IGuardsmen used to carry las cannons on their shoulders. Eventually it was decided that was a bit unrealistic too.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Nope. Rogue Trader says nothing about strength enhancement, only that the suit replicates the wearer's movements to offset its own weight. The reference in 2E Wargear is actually very specifically about the Space Marine version and refers to "his" strength. Being published in 2001, I don't think we can consider anything in the Inquisitor book as "always".

So we can't cite official sources that don't support your argument, or we can't cite ones you don't like/haven't read?

Once again you miss the point. She said power armor had "always" been strength enhancing in the fluff, and cited three sources. One was over twenty years old, and said no such thing. The other was almost twenty and said no such thing. The last is only ten and less than half of the game's lifespan, so I suggested that can't be listed as "always".

1997, that's still over a decade or precedence, and several subsequent Black Library books have referenced them in PA, and BL is canon.

I hate to say it again, but you've missed the point. I'm not disputing that they have power armor, because they most certainly do. I'm just saying they shouldn't, and in a separate point, that even if they changed the rules for them, the models could still be used. It's an opinion. You're getting confused because my posts contain both elements of my opinion, and then separate factual elements that counter poorly constructed arguments because A: I started playing this game a long time ago and B: have access to most of the books in question. To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units. If you tell me they aren't just a weaksauce rip off of Space Marines, I'll just kinda laugh at you because from the start, that's all they were, and it's barely changed.


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pretre wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

While probably not a direct quote, there is some text to that effect in C:WH.

Page 2, Codex Witch Hunters, 3rd Paragraph under 'The Ordo Hereticus' last sentence.

See, knew there would be a catch. It said the Ecclesiarchy can provide, not the Imperium or Adeptus Mechanicus can produce.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

While the absence of a binding canon means that your interpretation of the setting is just as valid as anyone's, I will point out that it runs contradictory to what many studio sources have stated - from various White Dwarf articles (and yes, I can provide the issue numbers, if you really want to look this up) to the official Armageddon III campaign website to their few codices.

But yes, if you go by Andy Hoare's article in Citadel Journal #49, Sisters engaging a rogue Marine Chapter typically target the leadership structure directly, deepstriking right into their HQ in the hopes of "cutting off the head of the snake", so to speak. Given their armaments and the impressive modifications carried out on Dominica-pattern drop pods (basically Astartes Deathwing pods modified by the AdMech and loaded chock-full of automated heavy meltas to provide a static barrage of Armour-Away™), this enables an elite strike force of chosen Sisters to deal a crippling blow to a Marine Chapter with comparatively few numbers, with a success rate that lets the Inquisition prefer them before asking other Marines to carry out the job (although this is also a matter of loyalty - or rather not risking the affiliation of another Chapter by asking them to move against their brethren).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They didn't have anything in the Rogue Trader days other than a picture and a small blurb about how they were enforcers of genetic testing.

And that one miniature, yes yes. But why exactly isn't that enough to establish that they have had power armour from the moment the Marines had it?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, knew there would be a catch. It said the Ecclesiarchy can provide, not the Imperium or Adeptus Mechanicus can produce.

On page 2 it also says, and I quote, "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter".

And "the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce" is referenced in White Dwarf #211.

Your move.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Crimson wrote:
I think sisters fit 40K lore perfectly. They epitomise the crazy religious side of the Imperium like no other army.

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.


This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

They need to also fix the SoB to having to use heavy weapons teams too since their Power Armor by the fluff lacks the strength enhancing capabilities of the Space Marines armor. Makes no sense they can heft heavy weapons around like it's no big deal when they are only marginally stronger than an Imperial Guardsman and probably somewhat smaller framed. Carapace Sisters definitely make sense for their line troops. Keeps them as "elites" and falls more in line with the fluff since the Sisters are essentially female Storm Troopers, not female Space Marines. Let them keep Power Armor for more elite units I guess to give them some individuality as an army rather than Girl Guard.

No, they're the only T3 3+ armour save army in the game, making them 4+ makes the army less unique, not more. Only marines and Necrons have 3+ armour, both at T4, whilst most t3 armies are between 4+ and 6+. I can only actually think of incubi and striking scorpians (both expensive elites) that have T3 and 3+ armour.

The armour is strength enhancing, its the case in the RPG version of the game, even without a power pack. Also, in the recent black library book Hammer and Anvil the sisters armour is specifically described as being strength enhancing on several occasions. To the point where at one part of the book a canoness casually picks up a recalitrant tech priest with one hand and throws him into a (spoiler ). Since I imagine a cyborg thats 75% metal weighs quite a lot its fair to say that constitiues above human strength. Also, there are guard models capable of carrying heavy weapons ie that special character catachan who also has no means of support beyond basic human strength. Also, orks (str3 without furious charge remember) also carry large heavy weapons without teams like Imperial guard since its generally accepted that fluff wise they are stronger than a basic human but not quite the equal of a marine (without FC). So there are other precedents for being str3 but having fluff wise greater strength and being able to carry heavy weapons.

Interestingly the Sororitas models with heavy weapons have extra exoskeleton bits to help them carry the big guns. So GW has definitely thought about it.

And I did not mean that Sisters should not have power armours at all, but I think it would nicely diversify the force if they lighter armoured options as well. And yes, I'd like to see power armour to be something rather rare and reserved to more veteran troops. This does not necessarily mean that there could be no power-armoured troop options. IG veterans are a troop choice as well.

Crimson wrote:Interestingly the Sororitas models with heavy weapons have extra exoskeleton bits to help them carry the big guns. So GW has definitely thought about it.

And I did not mean that Sisters should not have power armours at all, but I think it would nicely diversify the force if they lighter armoured options as well. And yes, I'd like to see power armour to be something rather rare and reserved to more veteran troops. This does not necessarily mean that there could be no power-armoured troop options. IG veterans are a troop choice as well.

IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

For someone so drenched in Sister fan sludge, I feel like you may want to refrain from calling anyone a fanboy. However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

But yes, if you go by Andy Hoare's article in Citadel Journal #49, Sisters engaging a rogue Marine Chapter typically target the leadership structure directly, deepstriking right into their HQ in the hopes of "cutting off the head of the snake", so to speak. Given their armaments and the impressive modifications carried out on Dominica-pattern drop pods (basically Astartes Deathwing pods modified by the AdMech and loaded chock-full of automated heavy meltas to provide a static barrage of Armour-Away™), this enables an elite strike force of chosen Sisters to deal a crippling blow to a Marine Chapter with comparatively few numbers, with a success rate that lets the Inquisition prefer them before asking other Marines to carry out the job (although this is also a matter of loyalty - or rather not risking the affiliation of another Chapter by asking them to move against their brethren).

If the Space Marines are entirely stupid enough to allow the Sisters to use their own tactic against them, then yes, maybe that story works. However, that story is about as believable as the rest of the current Sisters fluff, so hey. But somehow I feel like the Space Marines would be better prepared for such an engagement than Andy Hoare may have thought about ahead of time that day.

Your move.

This isn't a contest.


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Totalwar1402 wrote: Also, orks (str3 without furious charge remember) also carry large heavy weapons without teams like Imperial guard since its generally accepted that fluff wise they are stronger than a basic human but not quite the equal of a marine (without FC). So there are other precedents for being str3 but having fluff wise greater strength and being able to carry heavy weapons.

Orks are huge... Sisters are not. Orks are also S3 to balance their points cost (low) with the fluff (lots of them).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

For someone so drenched in Sister fan sludge, I feel like you may want to refrain from calling anyone a fanboy. However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

Your move.

This isn't a contest.

So the WH codex was just wrong all of those years it was a real codex? The Sisters heavy bolter isn't as good as the Space Marine heavy bolter? The Multi-melta? The Heavy Flamer? The Boltgun? See where I am going with this. I see this sort of argument alot on FFG's forums and it usually comes from SM fanboys. Its true Sisters are only human but thier gear is not in any way inferior. the only real difference is int he armor support systems and the WH codex clearly delineated that.

andrewm9 wrote:
IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

I can understand that. It is possible that my main reason to want carapace-armoured sisters is that I think they'd look cool (and no, not like Repentia.) I just think an army is more interesting to paint and model if it has more diversity in it's model range.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

For someone so drenched in Sister fan sludge, I feel like you may want to refrain from calling anyone a fanboy. However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

Your move.

This isn't a contest.


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Totalwar1402 wrote: Also, orks (str3 without furious charge remember) also carry large heavy weapons without teams like Imperial guard since its generally accepted that fluff wise they are stronger than a basic human but not quite the equal of a marine (without FC). So there are other precedents for being str3 but having fluff wise greater strength and being able to carry heavy weapons.

Orks are huge... Sisters are not. Orks are also S3 to balance their points cost (low) with the fluff (lots of them).

Sisters have power armour which enhances str, orks do not. Orks are still str3, same reason sisters are str 3 they can't justifiably or gamewise be made marine level str 4. Size is besides the point, mechanical power is usually greater than flesh and the armour provides that; hence the examples I gave.

Crimson wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:
IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

I can understand that. It is possible that my main reason to want carapace-armoured sisters is that I think they'd look cool (and no, not like Repentia.) I just think an army is more interesting to paint and model if it has more diversity in it's model range.

The easiest way to have done this with the current codex woudl not have been for Grey Knights to steal our units like Arco-flagellants and lump them into some hodge-podge unit where they suck worse than they did. A few more tanks would be nice too. Space Marines and IG have some great tank models. Maybe a fast attack unit that moves more then 12" would be nice too like some sort of drop ship or bike unit. Some sort of spirit-like Angelic Sororitas (similiar to Legion of the Damned) might have been cool too. Perhaps a few more special characters too.

The lack of diversification though currently has more to do with them not creating or not wanting to create newer models. Mono-pose metal models are terrible for that. A couple of blinged out units like Blood Angels and Space Wolves got in the way fo kits would go a long way to remedying that.

andrewm9 wrote:So the WH codex was just wrong all of those years it was a real codex? The Sisters heavy bolter isn't as good as the Space Marine heavy bolter? The Multi-melta? The Heavy Flamer? The Boltgun? See where I am going with this. I see this sort of argument alot on FFG's forums and it usually comes from SM fanboys. Its true Sisters are only human but thier gear is not in any way inferior. the only real difference is int he armor support systems and the WH codex clearly delineated that.

I see where you are going. Pedal to the floor off into nowhere land. Sure, their bolters and heavy bolters and flamers are just as good as the ones Marines have. What they don't have is everything else there that I listed. And what exactly did Codex: Witch Hunters delineate? That the Inquisitors could requisition Imperial Guard units and Sororitas Heroes could find themselves temporarily in command of Guard units? Remember, Codex: Witch Hunters is an Inquisition Codex, not a Sisters Codex. You don't even need to use any Sisters in the army, it just lets you. And it was also a convenient way for GW to get around having to print another Codex for the Sisters (hence why they still don't have a 5th Ed codex aside from the convenient to print WD one), but still create usable armies for their various Inquisition, Preacher, etc models. Though I think you also misuse the word delineate. And again, I refer back to my previous comment about people being "fanboys". You use the term in a derogatory manner about others when you don't even realize you are one yourself. Pardon me if I'm not terribly offended or thwarted by your invocation.

Crimson wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:
IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

I can understand that. It is possible that my main reason to want carapace-armoured sisters is that I think they'd look cool (and no, not like Repentia.) I just think an army is more interesting to paint and model if it has more diversity in it's model range.

As an alternate troop type like necrons and immortals I can understand, but replacing the core troop unit with CA armour just sends shivers down my spine.

Variety is always good, but in terms of ascetic they're all going to appear gothic in design and SOB armour is IMO fairly different from say dark eldar warriors or marines I don't see how it would make as drastic an increase in variety as you suggest.

If they did make a CA troop choice, then it would probably look like hospitaller armour (actually CA even though it looks very close to power armour) and whilst it would be good to add such a unit I'd prefer they didn't change the existing SOB troops to do it; (like they did with necron warriors to move immortals into a troop slot). CA sisters and celestians in power armour as troops would just be meh.


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Veteran Sergeant wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:So the WH codex was just wrong all of those years it was a real codex? The Sisters heavy bolter isn't as good as the Space Marine heavy bolter? The Multi-melta? The Heavy Flamer? The Boltgun? See where I am going with this. I see this sort of argument alot on FFG's forums and it usually comes from SM fanboys. Its true Sisters are only human but thier gear is not in any way inferior. the only real difference is int he armor support systems and the WH codex clearly delineated that.

I see where you are going. Pedal to the floor off into nowhere land. Sure, their bolters and heavy bolters and flamers are just as good as the ones Marines have. What they don't have is everything else there that I listed. And what exactly did Codex: Witch Hunters delineate? That the Inquisitors could requisition Imperial Guard units and Sororitas Heroes could find themselves temporarily in command of Guard units? Remember, Codex: Witch Hunters is an Inquisition Codex, not a Sisters Codex. You don't even need to use any Sisters in the army, it just lets you. And it was also a convenient way for GW to get around having to print another Codex for the Sisters (hence why they still don't have a 5th Ed codex aside from the convenient to print WD one), but still create usable armies for their various Inquisition, Preacher, etc models. Though I think you also misuse the word delineate. And again, I refer back to my previous comment about people being "fanboys". You use the term in a derogatory manner about others when you don't even realize you are one yourself. Pardon me if I'm not terribly offended or thwarted by your invocation.

But SOB don't have lascannons, sniper rifles, plasma guns, grenade launchers, shotguns etc (all of which joe guardsman has his hands on) because fluff wise they're meant to only kill people with the trinity of bolter, flamer and melta. Obviously terminator armour and land raiders are relics of the marines. But most of those guns arent used because the sisters are too weak/poor/guns are too rare its because GW designed them to have a certain weapon set. That doesn't mean fluffwise they're weaker on the equipment front and therefore shouldn't have power armour or rhinos or bolters.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, no, they don't have the same guns.

They lack the Marines' versatility, but they have equivalent bolter and melta weapons, and more quite simply isn't needed to take on a Marine. It's all a matter of tactics, i.e. employing the tools you have in the most efficient way. And it's simple, really: When a bolter-wielding Marine can kill other Marines, a Sister can, too.

You say it's not you who is proposing the changes you're wishing for but that it is the game - yet your arguments go against all the game has ever told us, in terms of rules, in terms of fluff and in terms of visuals.

It's sad that whereas in the fluff Marines grudgingly respect and acknowledge the fighting prowess of the Orders Militant (and vice-versa), I have seen a lot of Marine players that do not. In a way, I can even understand it - as well as the desire to break the status quo by proposing to "nerf" the opponent. Both armies tread on similar grounds and yet lack a common heritage, so I guess a certain level of rivalry could be expected. Even moreso as the Sisters' potency and their purges of heretic Marine Chapters may make Marines appear a bit less superhuman than some players may wish.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, that story is about as believable as the rest of the current Sisters fluff, so hey.

It's a lot more believable than half the fluff the studio churned out about the Space Marines. Or the setting in general. But hey - picking and choosing is a perfectly valid approach for personal interpretations, too, and of course I'm in no position to tell you what sources you should craft your preferred perception by, so if you feel that your Marines' status is somehow threatened by the SoB as written by GW, go ahead and maybe adopt FFG's interpretation of them. Or make up your own version with carapace or Guard flak, or - better yet, since you don't like their background - remove them altogether. No canon means no rules.

My opinion really just boils back down to this:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units.

From the beginning, they were a lame Space Marine derivative instead of their own army, and have always felt that way. Making them burny and girls doesn't make them unique. The Salamanders are burny too. The Sisters are bad, cheap imitation Space Marines without any of the supporting fluff that makes Space Marines what they are.

And if you feel that lacking any kind of long ranged punch is not a liability against a superhuman foe that does have such weaponry, well, I'll let you believe that. Having served in the military and studied strategy and tactics, my belief lies elsewhere. GW can tell me lots of things, lol. But without a reasonable explanation, I chalk it up as believable as the terrible BL books like Battle of the Abyss. Sure, being more fragile, and with their most potent weapons having half of the range (and being duplicated by their opponents anyway), and being completely outclassed in every form of supporting fires, I can see how it would make sense that "more quite simply isn't needed". You are welcome to continue the little snide, childish comments though. They are about as effective as the use of "fanboy" and a pointless attempt to use disguised logical fallacies to refute my points.

@Vet Sgt: You might want to walk away while still 'technically' following Rule 1. You've came into a Sisters thread and launched an OT attack on sisters trying to prove that they were not worthy of this that and the other thing.

Granted, we bit. Our bad for feeding the OT. But really, what did you expect?

In the words of the Humongous, "Just walk away."

Totalwar1402 wrote:But SOB don't have lascannons, sniper rifles, plasma guns, grenade launchers, shotguns etc (all of which joe guardsman has his hands on) because fluff wise they're meant to only kill people with the trinity of bolter, flamer and melta. Obviously terminator armour and land raiders are relics of the marines. But most of those guns arent used because the sisters are too weak/poor/guns are too rare its because GW designed them to have a certain weapon set. That doesn't mean fluffwise they're weaker on the equipment front and therefore shouldn't have power armour or rhinos or bolters.

You're confusing arguments here. I can't blame you because the guy I was responding to in that post is even more confused than you are. There are multiple independent concepts in play here that I have commented on:

1: Sisters do not have the same guns as Space Marines. Why they don't have them is irrelevant. Fluff about some "trinity" won't stop them from being blasted to pieces by the vastly superior firepower of a Space Marine chapter. Which is why they would be paired with huge formations of Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy, Inquisition forces, etc. Hence the Codex: Witch Hunters.

2: Sisters fluff is better suited to a more unique army that isn't such an obvious and unsupported Space Marine derivative. This is just my opinion. The way the Sisters are currently portrayed is cliche, derivative, and inconsistent with the established canon, which has, in a lot of ways, forced the canon to be rewritten to allow them to exist, instead of the other way around.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:This is irrelevant. I didn't say "plays like". I said they're just supposed to be ladymarines. Probably to mollify the people who clamored for ladymarines back in the day. But their first, half-official (in that they had no models and only nominal rules) existence began as a ripoff of Marines (10 model squads armed exactly as a Space Marine Tactical Squad), and never got much better. Heck, they are the nuns to match the Space Marines' monks. Sister Sin wasn't even a Sororitas, she just happened to be a picture the Rogue Trader guys decided fit with their fluff page on the Ecclesiarchy. RT was full of crazy stuff like that.

They serve a completely different purpose fluff-wise. They are the Ecclesiarchy's leg breakers, and until recently the Ordo Heriticus's hit-girls too. They are bound to the existing structure of the imperium (unlike marines), and represent the most fanatically faithful the Imperium has to offer. They are an Internal affairs type of agency, prosecuting wars against heretical/traitorous guard and marines.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Likely I have far older models than you do, some of which still get used. That has nothing to do with my point. It wasn't that the models were old, it was that they were from a different period of the game's design. IGuardsmen used to carry las cannons on their shoulders. Eventually it was decided that was a bit unrealistic too.

In 2004 a the sisters got a few new models and they all fit the existing aesthetic, PA and all. and this is not a pissing contest over who has the most old models, that is rather pedantic and calling it even tangential to the subject at hand is rather generous. If I had said I had 1 old marine model it would not have made a difference.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I hate to say it again, but you've missed the point. I'm not disputing that they have power armor, because they most certainly do. I'm just saying they shouldn't, and in a separate point, that even if they changed the rules for them, the models could still be used. It's an opinion. You're getting confused because my posts contain both elements of my opinion, and then separate factual elements that counter poorly constructed arguments because A: I started playing this game a long time ago and B: have access to most of the books in question. To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units. If you tell me they aren't just a weaksauce rip off of Space Marines, I'll just kinda laugh at you because from the start, that's all they were, and it's barely changed.

1) Cheaper points cost, larger unit size, specialized weapon set, radically different vehicle set, army wide 6++, faithbased superpowers, lower WS, S, and T all make the army different mechanically.

2) Aesthetically all of the parochial imagery and and the focus on purification through fire are a definite step away.

3) Finally in the fluff they have found a wierd little niche as IA affairs/ecclesiarchal enforcers. They have found further distinguish in their rabid faith, and the 6++ and faith powers are good mechanical reinforcements of fluff. They may have started off as lady marines, but originally SM were convicts not monks trained from youth. Lots of things have changed since RT, and sisters have found a good role in the imperium.

There, I have disputed your claim on the three most relevant grounds in the game. If there is some other, equally relevant, method of judgment I would like to know what it is. In a game with aliens, there is only so much you can do with humans before they become weirder than the aliens.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, knew there would be a catch. It said the Ecclesiarchy can provide, not the Imperium or Adeptus Mechanicus can.

The Ecclisiarchy is one of the largest institutions in the galaxy, and they have a relatively small fighting force. It seems entirely reasonable that they can afford PA and Bolters. Besides I imagine that the most expensive part of making a marine isn't equipping them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

Sisters certainly lack many of the weapons available to marines, but the ones they have are certainly adequate. Melta for vehicles/toughguys, flamethrowers for Hordes, bolters as general issue, they have their bases covered, especially since they like to see the heretic burn. They can't H2H a marine, of course not, good all around is vanilla marines hat, Sisters are shooters, trying to play them as a melee army makes no sense strategically and has little backing fluff wise. They have their 1 melee unit in the Sisters repentia, who are expecting to die, and their faith power represents that, but if you look at the one thing they are actually good at, it's cutting open tanks, and what do marines have more of than sisters? TANKS!

As far as fighting marines they have all the tools they need, and yeah they rely on outnumbering the marines. Marines are enhanced in every way known by the Imperium without resorting to chaos, so anything they field to bring them in line is either the same or worse, and therefor they are going to rely on numbers.

pretre wrote:@Vet Sgt: You might want to walk away while still 'technically' following Rule 1.

I've been pretty polite and reasonable. Most of the arguments against me have been rude and condescending. My first post was about whether or not the Sisters should expect new plastic models. If I read the thread title correctly, that's about as on topic as it gets. You actually took the discussion off topic. I simply followed because you asked a question. Threatening me for holding a contrary opinion actually seems to be the biggest violation of the rules in this thread so far. If "General Discussion" offends you, perhaps a different forum is more to your liking.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:My opinion really just boils back down to this:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units.

From the beginning, they were a lame Space Marine derivative instead of their own army, and have always felt that way. Making them burny and girls doesn't make them unique. The Salamanders are burny too. The Sisters are bad, cheap imitation Space Marines without any of the supporting fluff that makes Space Marines what they are.

And if you feel that lacking any kind of long ranged punch is not a liability against a superhuman foe that does have such weaponry, well, I'll let you believe that. Having served in the military and studied strategy and tactics, my belief lies elsewhere. GW can tell me lots of things, lol. But without a reasonable explanation, I chalk it up as believable as the terrible BL books like Battle of the Abyss. Sure, being more fragile, and with their most potent weapons having half of the range (and being duplicated by their opponents anyway), and being completely outclassed in every form of supporting fires, I can see how it would make sense that "more quite simply isn't needed". You are welcome to continue the little snide, childish comments though. They are about as effective as the use of "fanboy" and a pointless attempt to use disguised logical fallacies to refute my points.

I wasn't saying sisters shouldn't have long range or that it isn't an obviously crippling weakness in the army. I only meant they have a fluff reason for using short range weapons due to how GW made the army and not that they lack the resources even joe guardsman has access to.

Also, you could apply the same argument on Dark eldar, most of their codex isn't fluff, but a description of Commoragh and what Vect did. Evne though I collect the army there isn't much to go on aside from a few arch-typical sado masochist power mad army. Dark eldar are just evil space elves who juxtapose the nobility and purpose of the eldar. Being all women does make them unique, most people don't bat an eyelash at all wych armies wearing PVC or kinky female space elves of both flavours; its just accepted that eldar armies take Howling banshees and the like. The fact the entire army is made of women does matter in terms of how people percieve the army. Personally if SOB got a new dex I would hope for a necron style expansion, even complete overhaul of the fluff where before there was a fairly generic or limited range of what a necron could be.


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Veteran Sergeant wrote:

pretre wrote:@Vet Sgt: You might want to walk away while still 'technically' following Rule 1.

I've been pretty polite and reasonable. Most of the arguments against me have been rude and condescending. My first post was about whether or not the Sisters should expect new plastic models. If I read the thread title correctly, that's about as on topic as it gets. You actually took the discussion off topic. I simply followed because you asked a question. Threatening me for holding a contrary opinion actually seems to be the biggest violation of the rules in this thread so far. If "General Discussion" offends you, perhaps a different forum is more to your liking.

Iam sorry. I didn't mean to offend you at all, I just wanted to speak my mind from several of the comments made on this thread. If i used any vulgar language towards you then it was not my intention to do so out of any spite. If its came off topic then its because nobody has anything to add on that front.

Veteran Sergeant wrote: lame Space Marine derivative The Sisters are bad, cheap imitation Space Marines without any of the supporting fluff that makes Space Marines what they are.

How is this not flame bait in a sisters thread?

You are welcome to continue the little snide, childish comments though. They are about as effective as the use of "fanboy" and a pointless attempt to use disguised logical fallacies to refute my points.

And this is what I'm talking about from a rule 1 standpoint.

As I said, we are at fault for entertaining your OT points and thanks, but I'm quite familiar with what the forum is for.


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Also, coming into a thread asking when the new plastics are coming with the 'ol squat treatment' isn't the best of plans:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It actually surprises me that the Sisters haven't gotten the Squat treatment, as they're both hold-overs from the Rogue Trader days that never really gelled with the rest of the canon fluff.

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I think that maybe you honestly don't think that you're trying to antagonize folks, but if you aren't trying, you're still succeeding.

You don't see me popping into DE threads asking why they haven't been squatted and telling folks how they never really fit with the canon anyways.

Well, to be fair, the Dark Eldar were simply created as a response to the fan demand for them. White Dwarf used to have pictures of people's converted Golden Demon Chaos Eldar model entries and people asked why Fantasy had Dark Elves but 40K didn't have Dark Eldar. They never existed before, even as suggestion in the fluff. So they have no real back story. I think the Space Fetishist one is kinda weak, but that's what was established.

Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings. My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, to be fair, the Dark Eldar were simply created as a response to the fan demand for them. White Dwarf used to have pictures of people's converted Golden Demon Chaos Eldar model entries and people asked why Fantasy had Dark Elves but 40K didn't have Dark Eldar. They never existed before, even as suggestion in the fluff. So they have no real back story. I think the Space Fetishist one is kinda weak, but that's what was established.

Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings. My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Has anybody called you a name? I certainly don't have any hurt feelings either as this is the internet and lots of people sound worse than they intend. Refuting your claims shouldn't be viewed as aggressive behaviour, but as discussion. This has gotten out of hand though and perhaps enough is enough.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings.

Oh, don't go full martyr on us... I know it is a Sisters thread and all, but still.

My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Not mean, just too OT. Great for a new thread, not so great for trying to have a discussion about when new plastics are coming out. Feel free to start a new thread about your particular ideas about Sisters though. You might want to avoid the 'lame, derivative, etc' kind of negative language unless you want a negative response though.

Cheers!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, to be fair, the Dark Eldar were simply created as a response to the fan demand for them. White Dwarf used to have pictures of people's converted Golden Demon Chaos Eldar model entries and people asked why Fantasy had Dark Elves but 40K didn't have Dark Eldar. They never existed before, even as suggestion in the fluff. So they have no real back story. I think the Space Fetishist one is kinda weak, but that's what was established.

Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings. My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Calling sister fans 'sludge' is quite mean, actually.

Of course you can put forward a contrary opinion, you just did so by writing it down. But when two opinions refuse to give ground to the other and are contradictory there is little to be achieved in discussion; unless the dispute was caused by misinterpretation of language one side will just view the others as offensive. The whole point of discussion is that either an accomodation of ideas is made or both sides realise their views are essentially the same.

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Calling sister fans 'sludge' is quite mean, actually.

In fairness to Veteran Sergeant, he didn't call sisters fans sludge. He was referring to the fact that the accusations of fanboyism was lobbed at him, while others in the argument could just as easily be considered the same level of fanboy.

At any rate, I have my doubts that sisters will ever get plastic, but if they do, it is likely several years off. Even assuming that this is going to follow the BA model, we're still a couple years from that benchmark. Given that SoB are not interchangable with marines, I would push it back another year on top of that.

BA, DA, BT, SW, and Vanilla SM all share a common pool of models, they each have their uniques, but it usually amounts to more of troop type X, a unique-ish elite, a couple unique HQs, 1-3 peices of unique wargear, and some random add on parts that have little/no mechanical baggage. That is part of why marines are popular. You can buy a marine force and use most of it for several armies.

Sisters don't have any of that (other than sharing 3-4 random models with GK), and are probably the least played army. They are the only all metal army, the most expensive army, and they are rarely seen in game stores. Those factors conspire against them, heavily. Unless GW wants to go out on a limb and push them (taking time away from proven popular lines), we are going to have to wait until they have some down time, or until Ward decides that the sisters flavor needs to be changed and they should be grinding up greyknights as talismans of protection, we are stuck with the WD codex and armbreakingly heavy armycases full of pewter.

Armless Failure wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Calling sister fans 'sludge' is quite mean, actually.

In fairness to Veteran Sergeant, he didn't call sisters fans sludge. He was referring to the fact that the accusations of fanboyism was lobbed at him, while others in the argument could just as easily be considered the same level of fanboy.

At any rate, I have my doubts that sisters will ever get plastic, but if they do, it is likely several years off. Even assuming that this is going to follow the BA model, we're still a couple years from that benchmark. Given that SoB are not interchangable with marines, I would push it back another year on top of that.

BA, DA, BT, SW, and Vanilla SM all share a common pool of models, they each have their uniques, but it usually amounts to more of troop type X, a unique-ish elite, a couple unique HQs, 1-3 peices of unique wargear, and some random add on parts that have little/no mechanical baggage. That is part of why marines are popular. You can buy a marine force and use most of it for several armies.

Sisters don't have any of that (other than sharing 3-4 random models with GK), and are probably the least played army. They are the only all metal army, the most expensive army, and they are rarely seen in game stores. Those factors conspire against them, heavily. Unless GW wants to go out on a limb and push them (taking time away from proven popular lines), we are going to have to wait until they have some down time, or until Ward decides that the sisters flavor needs to be changed and they should be grinding up greyknights as talismans of protection, we are stuck with the WD codex and armbreakingly heavy armycases full of pewter.

But look at dark eldar, 13 years without any new models, barely played save for massed lance spam and with a considerably more sexualized image/ascetic/fluff than SOB. DE actually have dominatirx's in their army for christs sake! Then GW put in a huge amount of effort into basically bringing out the entire range in two years with excellent plastic models and a modern ruleset to make them an incredibly popular army.

You're right, probably not anytime soon mind you but its not as unprecedented as people make out.

And despite the DE being created the way they were, they actually ended up with a very cool backstory that explains why they would take the BDSM approach to combat (as much as any explanation would suffice).

Armless Failure wrote:And despite the DE being created the way they were, they actually ended up with a very cool backstory that explains why they would take the BDSM approach to combat (as much as any explanation would suffice).

Um hm. I would have liked if they had maybe made some of the dark eldar aware that they're under a curse and maybe some who try to curb their natural dark natures. A bit twilight, I confess, but it would have been neat anyways.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Um hm. I would have liked if they had maybe made some of the dark eldar aware that they're under a curse and maybe some who try to curb their natural dark natures.

There are plenty of forces in the fluff that have dark natures and are seeking redemption. Do we really need another one?

Yeah, DE need evil to live, and that is awesome and nearly a palindrome.

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Um hm. I would have liked if they had maybe made some of the dark eldar aware that they're under a curse and maybe some who try to curb their natural dark natures.

There are plenty of forces in the fluff that have dark natures and are seeking redemption. Do we really need another one?

Not all of them, a minority of Dark eldar just to spread it out a bit. A bit like not all Necrons are all about destroying all life (some now have vassels) but you have plenty of necrons who do.

Who wants redemption on the bad guys side?

Only one I can think of is some of the necrons like the young king.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Um hm. I would have liked if they had maybe made some of the dark eldar aware that they're under a curse and maybe some who try to curb their natural dark natures.

There are plenty of forces in the fluff that have dark natures and are seeking redemption. Do we really need another one?

Not all of them, a minority of Dark eldar just to spread it out a bit. A bit like not all Necrons are all about destroying all life (some now have vassels) but you have plenty of necrons who do.

Who wants redemption on the bad guys side?

Only one I can think of is some of the necrons like the young king.

Wait, who's the bad guys? You mean 'non-Imperial'? Tau and Eldar might argue that point.

Some Chaos have fluffy 'we are not really bad' stories in there though. Farsight probably has a bit to atone for. Mostly redemption seeking is an human thing. Most xenos don't care about it.



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Oh and by the way, DA, BT, BA, IG and SOB all have strong redemptive motives in all or part of their codex.

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Um hm. I would have liked if they had maybe made some of the dark eldar aware that they're under a curse and maybe some who try to curb their natural dark natures.

There are plenty of forces in the fluff that have dark natures and are seeking redemption. Do we really need another one?

Not all of them, a minority of Dark eldar just to spread it out a bit. A bit like not all Necrons are all about destroying all life (some now have vassels) but you have plenty of necrons who do.

Who wants redemption on the bad guys side?

Only one I can think of is some of the necrons like the young king.

Wait, who's the bad guys? You mean 'non-Imperial'? Tau and Eldar might argue that point.

Some Chaos have fluffy 'we are not really bad' stories in there though. Farsight probably has a bit to atone for. Mostly redemption seeking is an human thing. Most xenos don't care about it.



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Oh and by the way, DA, BT, BA, IG and SOB all have strong redemptive motives in all or part of their codex.

Aye, blood angels are a definete example and even some space wolf tales. Twilight marines. I thought you were refering to the evil(er) guys. Funny, I kind of read some sense of doubt in Chapters Due for Honsou during several lines in that book.


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Do you think they might make the fluff of the next dex that the ecclesiarchy is actually (despite the decree passive) amassing power for itself again and some of the sisters are actually aiding them (or unaware/tricked)? Or would that be too much of a shift away from paragons of virtue to exist alongside how sisters are at the minute?

Unlikely that the sisters would allow it. After all, sisters are still trying to atone for the last time they let themselves be used like that.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Do you think they might make the fluff of the next dex that the ecclesiarchy is actually (despite the decree passive) amassing power for itself again and some of the sisters are actually aiding them (or unaware/tricked)?

That's an interesting question.

The Ecclesiarchy is very much fond of its influence and doesn't shy away from abusing religion to denounce and excommunicate political rivals. The Sisters of Battle seem to have carte blanche when it comes to assessing the spiritual purity of the Imperium's forces and its citizens, and as such are the perfect tool for applying pressure or removing rivals outright. That said, the Orders Militant operate under direct command of the Ecclesiarch, which at least removes individual Cardinals as the source of wrongful orders (indeed, often enough it is Apostate Cardinals who are targeted for elimination by a Sororitas strike team) and allows the Sisters to pursue another of their duties with minimal interference: policing the Ecclesiarchy itself, for they are not only its guardians but also its watchers. In this task they are joined by the Ordo Hereticus, which keeps a watchful eyes on the activities of the Imperial Cult, its Inquisitors able to call on the Adepta Sororitas to reliably remove troublesome individuals (including any supporter the heretic would have corrupted with his ideas). The Sisters remember the Vandirian apostasy full-well and as such the Canonesses of the Orders Militant are bound to permanent vigilance, stuck between proper respect towards officials of the Church and their duty to faith alone.

Now, the Ecclesiarchy has been flaunting the spirit of the Decree Passive for some time, yet its Frateris Militia are ill-equipped and improperly trained, and the couple thousand Sisters who in turn have the training and the gear are much too few in numbers to pose any challenge to Imperial order. The Orders Militant are spread out across the entirety of Imperial space (and at times beyond) and so involved into just keeping the status quo that they would have to abandon all their tasks to amass a sizable force, not to mention that such troop movements would surely be detected by the Inquisition. The visible military might of the Ecclesiarch is a far cry from what Vandire had at his disposal.

So, to sum it up, whilst the Sisters seem like the obvious threat on the first glance, I think the greater danger lies with the Ecclesiarchy's ties into the nobility, the Imperial Guard and the Navy, for no Imperial force (sans Space Marines of course) is without a Confessor, and many officers are religious enough to have an open ear to the suggestions of these emissaries. Which is why it occasionally happens that an Ecclesiarchy-only War of Faith is joined by naval warships or entire Guard regiments, for example. Such is the influence of the Imperial Cult.


PS @ Veteran Sergeant: After having cooled my head for a little I would like to apologize. I stand by my opinion - including the only motif I can think of that warranted your posts - but I should have worded my responses more carefully. I suppose, in the end it just comes down to both of us having read different things, and our perceptions having, uh, "evolved" accordingly. I'll freely admit that I am a fan of the SoB (which is why I have collected so much fluff about them in the first place), so my defensive attitude should be understandable, even if I will say that I may as well have backed out earlier. As others have said, that debate really couldn't go anywhere from the start.