So after taking a hiatus from my Chaos Space Marines to work on my crimson fists, I decided to return to them for an upcoming 1,750 tournament in december. The list I've put together has been nothing short of brutal, and as well it should be: I'm basically making the cheesiest chaos army possible at this point.
Testing has been a blast. Anything other than a perfectly optimized list from one of the most recent codices pretty much just folds to this, and at my LGS, I can't expect to see many of those. I think I have a pretty good shot at winning. Anyway, enough rambling. Here it is.
HQ -Daemon Prince (175 points)
Wings
Mark of Nurgle
Warptime
-Daemon Prince (175 points)
Wings
Mark of Nurgle
Warptime
-8x Khorne Berzerkers (248 points)
Champion with Power Fist
Rhino with Dozer Blades
Heavy Support
-Defiler (150 points)
2x Extra DCCW
-2x Obliterators (150 points)
-2x Obliterators (150 points)
Total- 1,748
So I've got another 5 point upgrade in there somewhere, maybe a Personal Icon on the Zerkers so I can deep strike the oblits in if I need to. The list suffers from a lack of long range firepower, as per the usual with the chaos dex, but not nearly as much as most lists. It has strong shooting elements (both at close range and long) and 4 balls-to-the-wall counter assault units in the form of the Zerkers, Princes, and defiler.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I wanna win this tournament.
Looks solid. Would possibly consider dropping one of the plague marine squads and take a chosen squad with all meltas to outflank in their rhinos to put the crapper up the guard car park list which you'll still struggle with. I reckon Dark Eldar might give you a tough game too. But all in its one of the nastiest CSM lists i've seen for a while
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks solid. Would possibly consider dropping one of the plague marine squads and take a chosen squad with all meltas to outflank in their rhinos to put the crapper up the guard car park list which you'll still struggle with. I reckon Dark Eldar might give you a tough game too. But all in its one of the nastiest CSM lists i've seen for a while
That's a damn solid list, my only concern being that it seems a little ill-equipped to handle hordes. But I suppose with the Deflier and oblits you shouldn't have too much of a problem blowing those out of the water.
I also agree with what Caranthir987 said about the chosen. Dropping one of the plasma squads for a set of chosen with meltas would go a long way in handling those pesky IG parking lots which can cause a lot of harm to your rhinos (goddamn manticores...)
I don't like the Defiler, why not drop him and just take 2 more oblitz, for more long range firepower? That lone Defiler is going to drop like an anvil parachute by turn one or two.
The defiler acts like a 3rd daemon prince. He's mobile with fleet, has alot of attacks, and has a really big gun. Plus, he'll be attracting the same type of firepower the princes do, furthering my opponents target priority issues. He works here because he doesnt get singled out. The chosen arent a bad idea, however. Ill give them a shot
I know this is a shameless bump, but I just wanted to give everyone an update on how this army has been testing. The last 5 points were taken up by Dozer Blades on the Berzerker rhino, bringing the total to a tidy 1,748 points. Here's my record with the list so far.
Imperial Guard: 4 wins, 1 loss
Dark Eldar: 1 win, 1 loss
Space Wolves: 2 wins, no losses
Blood Angels: 2 wins, no losses
Orks: 1 win (this was the big one)
The Ork list I faced was a tournament level Battlewagon army, but that wasn't the issue. The person piloting it is easily the best player at our LGS. He's won the last 2 1,750 tournaments easily, with this same ork list, and crushed the 'Ard Boyz prelims earlier this year. And I beat him in no small part thanks to this list. Try it, if you're a chaos fan and tired of all this counts-as crap.
Unfortunately, most of these are without the chosen. I dont currently have the models for it to be completely wysiwyg, and funds are a bit tight (just paid the rent). As for mech, plasma guns are actually every bit as effective as melta at taking out av10 to 11 vehicles, so once I'm within 12 inches I cam start popping transports in a hurry. The daemons also double as anti tank.
The space wolves list had 4 razorbacks with grey hunters, a thunderwolf deathstar, wolf lord, rune priest and 3 squads of long fangs. Dealing with the long fangs is just like dealing with lootas: they dont take casualties very well, and their firepower decreases with each dead marine. I use plasma/battle cannons in the first couple turns to kill off a couple guys from each unit to limit their effectiveness. 1 to 3 missile launchers a turn is alot less scary than 4 or 5, and if you force enough leadership tests, theyll fail eventually.
How did you handle the thunderwolf deathstar? I imagine that would have beat even your Khorne berserkers. Did you just ignore the runepriest?
Got a friend that plays a really similar space wolf list. And my list is similar to yours, but I have lost to him twice already. Key difference is that I have only 1 daemon prince, and I use regular 10 man CSM sqads with meltas compared to your 5 man plague marine squads with meltas.
What was the IG playing? I am impressed with your IG record as well. The IG guy at my local store plays with a horryfying 6 vendettas and 3 leman russ with plasma cannon loadout. There's a serious danger of being shot to pieces within the first two turns. How does this army handle super shooty armies? Just charge forward?
Does your defiler also charge forward or does it hang back to shoot its battle cannon. I got 2 defilers, and usually hang back to shoot.
Commissar Typhus wrote:I don't like the Defiler, why not drop him and just take 2 more oblitz, for more long range firepower? That lone Defiler is going to drop like an anvil parachute by turn one or two.
Pretty good piece of advice here. Defiler might be nice with the big pie plate, but like any other vehicle in this edition it can be popped too easily. As he says, it takes up an extremely valuable heavy slot that you can throw at some more oblits. Who have more fire power and dont die nearly as easy.
Eldenfirefly wrote:How did you handle the thunderwolf deathstar? I imagine that would have beat even your Khorne berserkers. Did you just ignore the runepriest?
Got a friend that plays a really similar space wolf list. And my list is similar to yours, but I have lost to him twice already. Key difference is that I have only 1 daemon prince, and I use regular 10 man CSM sqads with meltas compared to your 5 man plague marine squads with meltas.
What was the IG playing? I am impressed with your IG record as well. The IG guy at my local store plays with a horryfying 6 vendettas and 3 leman russ with plasma cannon loadout. There's a serious danger of being shot to pieces within the first two turns. How does this army handle super shooty armies? Just charge forward?
Does your defiler also charge forward or does it hang back to shoot its battle cannon. I got 2 defilers, and usually hang back to shoot.
The Wolfstars are pretty damn scary, but once you get past the "Oh my god that thing is going to eat my entire army" mental block and actually shoot at them a few dozen times, you realize they're far from invincible. My strategy is to plasma/melta them a few times in the early turns and then feed them a Plague Marine squad (most people take the bait), then counter assault with any combination of Berzerkers, the Defiler, or Daemon Prince. The last game I was able to rapid fire a couple Plasma guns into them, dealing a few wounds, then tarpit them before multi-assaulting with both Daemon Princes. One prince died, but the wolves were no more.
Having 2 princes is really a must. 1 is tough, but can be brought down by concentrated fire. 2 is very problematic, and creates target saturation, which is also why I run the Defiler with 4x DCCW over another pair of Obliterators. I am rarely disappointed by him, and my normal strategy is as follows: Move, shoot, move, shoot, move, fleet, assault (over the first 3 turns).
Also, I am an advocate of Plague Marines over Chaos Marines any day. Chaos Marines are on par with vanilla marines, and in my opinion, those suck.
As for the Oblits vs Defiler argument, in literally ANY OTHER LIST other than one with double Nurgle Daemon Princes, even one with lash princes or sorcerers, I would run the Oblits. But in this list, the Defiler is largely ignored, letting him blow squads off the table and punch holes in vehicles.
For the record, the Guard list I play against usually runs 3 standard LRBT, 4 melta vet squads in chimeras, 2 plasma CCS squads in chimeras, and a vet squad in a Vendetta. Pretty typical mech guard.
I have decided I am definitely getting a second daemon prince and damn what they say about being cheesy. Its allowed for chaos to have 2 HQ that are both daemon prince officially, and they are good so why should I short change myself!
But back to my question, so, how do you handle super shooty armies? Just mass charge forward and hope target satuation will work?
You have to keep in mind that this style of CSM army (one containing mostly plague marines as it's troops) is devastating at 12 inches, probably moreso than any other army out there. Plasma guns can rapid fire, dudes with melta guns can move (either on foot or in rhinos) and get the extra d6 armor penetration, and berzerkers can move in for the assault. Moreover, Daemon princes may now pick which direction to assault from, which comes in handy for picking out special characters in combat. Getting into the this magical promised land is half the battle.
I usually leap frog my rhinos/princes in order to get to the enemy. 3 rhinos drive forward and pop smoke, then the other 2 do the same on the next turn, creating cover for themselves and alternately eachother as the Oblits and Defiler blast away. If you are going second, try to deploy out of sight to conserve your transports. Within a couple of turns (or by turn 2, against a midfield army who is driving towards you) you'll be right where you need to be. Usually, against IG, I've been de-meched by the time I reach my enemies lines, but I'm still exactly where I need to be.
I will say that the Ork army you played was in fact cheese, and I will disagree with him being the best player(Just the one who spends the most time putting together broken lists lol)..I like the idea of this army list and I myself and interested in seeing what I can throw against this list come the tourney. Do I think i will win possibly not, but I do think you have a very good list and am excited to play. Very well done...I just think you may want to think about what you will do for Speedar cause they have always been a thorn in my side and we know for a fact they will be there.
Excuse my ignorance, but what makes this a great list? I just started playing, and I'm trying to learn CSM. Does this list counter the current meta well?
Unfortunately I wont have time to convert up 5 melta toting chosen before the tournament, but that's probably going to be the next thing I do for this army. Good news is, I only have 4 more models to paint and this army list is complete!
And did you mean I have a great argument for the Defiler?
This list is good because it answers all of the 5th edition threats, while presenting threats of it's own. It has pleanty of melta, a solid amount of long range firepower, answers to FNP bubbles, marines, terminators, and enough anti infantry capability to get by. It both shoots and assaults well, and (most importantly) fields a lot of units, with none of them being particularly "low priority".
I'm testing more on Wednesday, hopefully getting some games in against space wolves, and possibly necrons. I'll keep everyone updated, and thanks for the comments!
th3maninblak wrote:This list is good because it answers all of the 5th edition threats, while presenting threats of it's own. It has pleanty of melta, a solid amount of long range firepower, answers to FNP bubbles, marines, terminators, and enough anti infantry capability to get by. It both shoots and assaults well, and (most importantly) fields a lot of units, with none of them being particularly "low priority".
I'm testing more on Wednesday, hopefully getting some games in against space wolves, and possibly necrons. I'll keep everyone updated, and thanks for the comments!
I'm interested in seeing how the list works against Necrons, because one of my friends is going to start with them. I just started buying my army, and I'm looking for a list that will help guide my purchases. With CSM being so vanilla right now, this seems like it may be what I go for.
th3maninblak wrote:Unfortunately I wont have time to convert up 5 melta toting chosen before the tournament, but that's probably going to be the next thing I do for this army. Good news is, I only have 4 more models to paint and this army list is complete!
And did you mean I have a great argument for the Defiler?
This list is good because it answers all of the 5th edition threats, while presenting threats of it's own. It has pleanty of melta, a solid amount of long range firepower, answers to FNP bubbles, marines, terminators, and enough anti infantry capability to get by. It both shoots and assaults well, and (most importantly) fields a lot of units, with none of them being particularly "low priority".
I'm testing more on Wednesday, hopefully getting some games in against space wolves, and possibly necrons. I'll keep everyone updated, and thanks for the comments!
Great to hear that! I've actually been running a similar list for the past two weeks at the 2000 point level and it's been fantastic.Plasma Plague Marine rhinos have so much versatility and bersekers are just plain killy fun.
At the same time though, I do have some differences from your list though in that I drop the defiler, one squad of PMs, one Nurgle DP and a rhino in favor of a land raider for the berserkers (being able to assault out of that thing makes me smile), a lash sorcerer/prince (depends on the mood/army that I'm facing) and a squad of raptors with meltas. In my experience at least, with chosen outflanking and raptors doing their hit and run shenanigans, you can really break apart almost any parking lot or infantry line. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what could be done to accommodate them at a lower point value (since not everyone at my LGS plays at 2k, most tournies are 1850). I've been thinking of bikers instead of the chosen and the raptors, but I can't actually decide.
In any case, to come to a point, what have you been finding to be the fundamental weakness of your list? For me it's been armies like IG Vendetta/Valk spam even with raptors and Chosen evening the score against outflanking veterans, how exactly have you been handling these? Target Saturation only gets you so far (speaking from personal experience). I can also see crisis suit tau having a field day with the list though that's just me.
Spoiler:
Here's the track record (W/L/T) if you want to see it
IG (Vendetta/Valk Veteran Artillery-Based): 2-3-1: Probably the hardest list I've had to face, outflanking vendettas can REALLY ruin your day, as can manticores if you're not careful. I've tied a lot against this guy simply because of time and while I'm sure I can beat him, it always gets really close.
GK (Draigowing): 2-1-0: Another tough list, the oblits and raptors I have in my list have really been the key in keeping this list down. The record is deceptive, every game has been VERY close and I generally only win by a kill point or two. Still, I'm not the best commander out there and I know that he's a much better player than me (plays mechdar main and has been for years now) so I'm glad to be able to put the hurt on him.
SW (Longfangs/TWC): 0-0-1: We called it even on kill points at the end of turn 4 (I had to leave), but TWC Was really a huge pain in the gonads. Longfangs were even more of a pain, dropping two plasma rhinos to immobilized results and then his totally fair and balanced jaws of the wolf (goddamnoverpoweredstupidwhywasthisabilityeverinvented) managed to krib my DP, the other units were quick to respond. Once again, I love the chosen for this and the raptors and sorcerer for being that amazing force multiplier. The real hero though was the land raider and berserkers who tarpitted the TWC (the latter reducing them to a single man before they were finally taken out by a plasma canon). I can really see this list being one of the tougher ones to deal with out there though...
DE (sliscus venom/raider spam w/ blasterborn and wyches) 2-2-2: Early on I was killing this guy, then he figured out that melta was bad and decided to start playing it safe, we've been 1-1-2 since then and it's been getting tougher each game. Still, they've been fun games. Lances really cause a lot of trouble though and blasterborn murder tanks more quickly than anything short of vendettas and melta. Wyches also make berserkers cringe :3
Mechdar: 1-0-0: (not the draigowing dude): These guys toasted my land raider quickly (damn you lances). But the raptors and chosen quickly evened the score by taking out a Fire prism He plays with a lot of war walkers and wraithlords and the game we had was really back and forth for a turn or two but eventually I was able to come away with a clean win by turn four (the only squad that I lost were the chosen who were sadly destroyed by a vengeful wraithlord). I don't forsee too many issues with this list.
Orks: Battlewagon/Biker KOS: 1-0-0 Like you, I had fun almost toying with this guy. The nurgle prince was straight up unkillable (thanks to his biker boss being tied down) and Battlewagons folded insanely quickly to the plasma from the rhinos. He did manage to trample my chosen's rhino with a deffrolla (and the poor heretics inside subsequently died to burnas... so many dice!). I really feel that this is one of the easier lists I've had to deal with though, something like greed tide, as silly as it sounds, could probably give me some trouble (thank god for blight grenades...)
Vanilla Marines: 3-0-0: Against my roommate, who's not the best player out there and plays more for the fluff :3, but still, he's a competent commander in his own right.
Basically, my feeling, like you said, is that against most MEQ the list is solid and quite competitive, even against optimized lists like draigowing and sliscus. I do worry though, after having faced lists that incorporate units like TWC, how effective it will be against the *very* tough end of the spectrum and against pure hordes. Melta's and outflanking shenanigans have been my crutch against them thus far. I'd be very curious to see how this works against a newcron army (we don't have any serious newcrons in the area, the guy with the most has maybe 1200 pts atm =/).
Extreme mech saturation would have to be the biggest weakness of this list. A fully optimized guard or Blood Angels is hard to beat, especially the latter. 10+ vehicles with 5+ cover saves are a pain. As for lowering the point value to 1850 or 1750, dropping the land raider down to a rhino is recommended. Thats probably almost 500 points tied up into one unit, which works at 2k, but not below.
And Chaos is very vanilla right now. The codex is boring and bland, but still very powerful. Don't let the interwebz tell you otherwise.
Commissar Typhus wrote:I don't like the Defiler, why not drop him and just take 2 more oblitz, for more long range firepower? That lone Defiler is going to drop like an anvil parachute by turn one or two.
Personnlly I think you should stick with the defiler.
I like the defiler.. People dwell on the canon but they forget hes also a fleet dread lol have him run and shoot at stuff and who cares if they blow off the canon.. now hes assaulting you and rippin you to pieces. As far as the stated thing with the second daemon prince is cheese etc.. I'd blow that off. The "cheese" arguement is abused and is becoming a synonym for "waah*tear you beat me and in any other list dice roll whatever they had you BUT it must be that one thing." Their cheese is starting to mold their brain.
crash462 wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but what makes this a great list? I just started playing, and I'm trying to learn CSM. Does this list counter the current meta well?
The list is great because it pretty versatile and powerful without having to rely on any one deathstar or combo way to win. Each and every unit in the list is pretty dangerous in its own way, and he has 5 troops which count as scoring, which will be easily more than most 1750 armies. And objective games occur very freqeuntly. Even in a kill point game, his list will do well because plague marines are really really hard to kill. I had one case where my opponent, shot a ton of stuff at my plague marine squad (which was in cover), including lascannons shots and when the smoke cleared, one plague marine was still left standing, and since they are fearless, he remained on his objective and refused to run away! lol
I love Defilers and I love how he has managed to make them work in his list. His defiler is part of his target saturation, and advance with the rest of his army and if you ignore it, then by 3rd or 4th turn, it will get into combat and that thing has 2 close combat weapons added, so its going to be extremely nasty in combat. My defiler with a similar loadout has killed off entire squads, and stomped special charecters and HQs to death once it got into close combat.
The list isn't going to autowin the game for you, you still have to know how to play it, but I believe that it has the tools to stand up against most lists out there. More importantly, it doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, so there is limits to which an opponent can tailer his list against this list without making himself really vulnerable to some other type of horde list and such out there. I like this list because this is the kind of list that will give everyone you play with a good hard game without coming across as cheesy (unless they think 2 daemon prince is cheesy). At the end of the game, probably both sides would have a fair amount of casualties because this list likes to get up close and personal, but both sides would have had fun playing. You have a very decent chance (good if you are a good player) of winning with the list too!
Out of curiosity, how do you think this list would work if it were foot khorne rather than bawks nurgle? Replace 5x PMs with plasma and a rhino with 8x berzerkers with a fist, MoN with MoKDP's, etc. It would have more models and more killing power at the cost of slightly less durability over all.
Depends on how many plague marine squads you are replacing with Khorne foot squads I guess. And I would still recommend putting them in a rhino though.
His whole army, by turn 2, latest turn 3 will be within melta/plaman gun/ daemon prince assault range.
If you run khorne berserkers on foot, they may lag behind the other guys. Plus they are in danger of being shot to pieces because they aren't protected from being in a Rhino.
Or something. 40 berzerkers running forward. Turn 2 the DPs hit and the obliterators deepstrike. Turn 3 the berzerkers hit, the other obliterators arrive, and the first obliterators shoot and charge. Everything in close combat for the rest of the game.
Certainly the khorne models by themselves aren't as durable, and without the free KP wrapper for a turn, but there are more of them, and berzerkers do more damage per model, so they can get away with having slightly fewer surviving models.
I mean, I've got to think that if this list works, a khorne variation could as well. Still don't know about the defiler, though.
Draigo wrote:I like the defiler.. People dwell on the canon but they forget hes also a fleet dread lol have him run and shoot at stuff and who cares if they blow off the canon.. now hes assaulting you and rippin you to pieces. As far as the stated thing with the second daemon prince is cheese etc.. I'd blow that off. The "cheese" arguement is abused and is becoming a synonym for "waah*tear you beat me and in any other list dice roll whatever they had you BUT it must be that one thing." Their cheese is starting to mold their brain.
Yours is more thematic towards Khorne I guess. But its less versatile honestly. For example, in objective games, his plague marines are better because they are far more durable to being shot at while camping on an objective.
And he has more shooting. Yours is now almost entirely a close combat army. Yours has one more slight problem too. Given that it has 5 whole squads of berzerkers on foot, you could run into a case of a jam of bodies.
If your opponent deployed mainly on one side of the table, while you deployed across the whole table, parts of your army won't get into combat until very late because they are all foot sloggers.
Are 5 T5 models more durable than 8 T4 models when camped in 4+ cover? As for a traffic jam of bodies, I am a seasoned foot horde guard commander, 40 models won't be too much to deal with.
I'm more concerned about where PMs are clearly more durable, namely turns 2 and 3. After that, the advantage swings to khorne once the second round of close combat starts. I guess it's sort of tough to compare, though, as nurgle is a shooty army and khorne is a choppy army.
I guess what I need to know, then, is how good of a job a pair of demon princes do at absorbing high strength fire on turns 1 and 2. Is it enough to keep plasma from shooting berzerkers? Is this a case where I should dump the fifth berzerker squad for a big squad of summoned lesser demons (or perhaps IoCGCSM) to bulk the numbers up? I also read somewhere about DPs hiding in with the berzerkers to take cover saves, would this be better than just charging forward as a grand distraction?
There's no possible way we could see a battle report from this list, is there?
Or something. 40 berzerkers running forward. Turn 2 the DPs hit and the obliterators deepstrike. Turn 3 the berzerkers hit, the other obliterators arrive, and the first obliterators shoot and charge. Everything in close combat for the rest of the game.
Certainly the khorne models by themselves aren't as durable, and without the free KP wrapper for a turn, but there are more of them, and berzerkers do more damage per model, so they can get away with having slightly fewer surviving models.
I mean, I've got to think that if this list works, a khorne variation could as well. Still don't know about the defiler, though.
First off, the Berzerkers NEED rhinos. Moving 6+d6 inches per turn when not in transports is just asking to get blown off the table. Cover helps keep them alive, but slows them down. Also, Khorne Berzerkers are great at what they're meant to do, which is torrent things to death with high numbers of high quality attacks, but they're just regular marines when it comes to holding objectives, and become worse when you consider the fact that they have no real ranged weapon to speak of. They're better than Death Company in the sense that they have the ABILITY to hold objectives, but that's really not where you want them to be, ESPECIALLY on the back field. Run 1 squad of them, 2 max, unless you're going for a fluffy list, in which case this will be a lot of fun (adding rhinos) but won't be the most competitive list.
The Khorne Daemon Princes are deceptive. A str6 monsterous creature with 6 attacks on the charge (at WS7!) seems bonkers, but when you math-hammer it vs a Daemon Prince with warptime and any other mark, the latter (with warptime) comes out on top every time. Mark of Nurgle also bumps the toughness up to a magic 6, meaning str4 close combat and shooting attacks (basically everything) wound on 6s, and plasma weaponry wounds on 3s instead of 2s, which is HUGE. I actually have one of my "Nurgle" daemon princes painted up as a Khorne Daemon prince and just use the nurgle/warptime loadout. If anyone argues, I just say that it's a really tough Khorne daemon that happens to be so good in combat that he rerolls hits and wounds! XD
Also, deepstriking or charging your obliterators is a bad idea. You want those bad boys on the table from turn 1 blasting away at things with lascannons and plasma cannons, not stuck in reserve. Also, even though they have 2A base power fists, running such a valuable model into close combat is far too risky. They can fist things like marines (without fists) or guardsmen, but anything other than that is too dangerous.
Overall, I really love that list for it's fluffy qualities. Who doesn't want to see a horde of Berzerkers running across the table screaming bloody murder? But in the end, it's not as competitive as other chaos lists I've seen, or the one I built (really not trying to sound arrogant here).
I'm headed to my LGS tomorrow for testing, and painting more berzerkers tonight. Wish me luck!
Edit: Should have a battle report up tomorrow from a game vs either Necrons, Space Wolves, or Imperial Guard. Might not be comprehensive, but should give you all the right idea. Thanks for all the comments folks!
Do let me know how the tourney goes! th3maninblak ! Good luck and I hope Chaos Space Marines will rock!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros wrote:Are 5 T5 models more durable than 8 T4 models when camped in 4+ cover? As for a traffic jam of bodies, I am a seasoned foot horde guard commander, 40 models won't be too much to deal with.
I'm more concerned about where PMs are clearly more durable, namely turns 2 and 3. After that, the advantage swings to khorne once the second round of close combat starts. I guess it's sort of tough to compare, though, as nurgle is a shooty army and khorne is a choppy army.
I guess what I need to know, then, is how good of a job a pair of demon princes do at absorbing high strength fire on turns 1 and 2. Is it enough to keep plasma from shooting berzerkers? Is this a case where I should dump the fifth berzerker squad for a big squad of summoned lesser demons (or perhaps IoCGCSM) to bulk the numbers up? I also read somewhere about DPs hiding in with the berzerkers to take cover saves, would this be better than just charging forward as a grand distraction?
There's no possible way we could see a battle report from this list, is there?
His plague marines are definitely more durable. They also have full no pain rule besides the T4(5). So, he gets to make 2 saves normally while the zerkers will only get one save. The problem is that your daemon prince will go in first, and your zerkers only the turn after (at the very fastest). So, a shooty army has an easy strategy. Focus all shooting on your 2 princes, kill them, then next turn focus all shooting on the rest of the zerkers.
Don't rely on obliterators successfully deepstriking in when you want them. I have had terminators come in from deep strike only on turn 5. If you get lousy rolls, then none of your obliterators will come in until turn 4. Then that makes it even more easy for your opponent to kill off your army because it is coming in in drips and drabs.
Got in 2 games today. I didn't take full battle reports, but I'll give as specific of a description as I can.
Game 1: Space Wolves
His list was a Rune Priest, Wolf Priest, Raider full of Bloodclaws (with wolf guard), 2 rhinos full of Grey hunters and one Grey Hunter drop pod (also with wolf guard), 2 squads of wolf scouts, and 2 squads of missile launcher Long Fangs. Game type was Annihilation, Spearhead deployment. I managed to wipe a squad of Long Fangs early on from plasma cannon shooting, and used LoS blocking terrain to render the other one largely ineffective. I pretty much ignored the Land Raider (until he used it's contents to multi assault my oblits and wipe them in the final turns of the game) and focused on downing his grey hunters with a combination of Daemon Princes and Berzerkers. Both melta scout squads went after my Defiler and wiffed, so he ate them.
Result- Victory for Chaos, 6 kill points to 4.
Game 2: Imperial Guard
A fully Mechanized list. Joy... Rolled up Pitched Battle with 5 objectives. His list consisted of 5 Vet squads in Chimeras (melta/plasma), Command Squad in a Chimbera, 2 LRBTs, and a manticore. I wrecked his manticore on turn 1, and stunned a LRBT, all the while moving the Plague marine rhinos up the field, with Daemon Princes and Berzerkers behind it. I made some pretty lucky cover saves during his shooting phase, and by the time my turn rolled around it was all over. He had repositioned himself during his movement phase and had thus gotten just a little too close. The Daemon Princes managed to kill one LRBT and wipe his command squad (after some good melta shots), and the Berzerkers multi assaulted 2 other Chimeras. At that point it was pretty much over, as Chaos is pretty much the king of close range firefights.
I have to say this list does look pretty damn awesome! And obviously is awesome, judging from the results you are getting. So Congrats on the wins.
I'm with Ailaros in that making a Khorne version of this list would be good as i do love big K and his choppy choppy'ness, but this list of yours is so damn good looking i'm going to have to shamlessly copy it! Just need to do some "counts as" models for the time being as i only own 7 PM's and my DP's are Khorne and Slannesh in colours but that's not an issue really as i play at an independant gaming store who are cool with counts as/proxy models and such.
I'm also loving how you've got a working Defiler in there as i love mine, it's a great model, but it's normally a model sitting in my "killed" pile quickly! Hence why i don't often use it. However i don't normally run with with a duel Prince list so can see it will make most people wanna kill the DP's first and ignore the Defiler.
So just to clarify, you move the rhinos 12" and use them to give your DP's and zerker rhino a cover save, then turn two/three pop and transports and get the DP's and zerkers to nom nom the goodness inside?
May well have to use this list at my LGS tomorrow. I'm also wondering how you would drop this list to a 1500 one as most of our games are 1500? Don't have my codex to hand as i'm work so i'm guessing drop one or two squads of plagues, and perhaps take off an oblit or two.
A Khorne version is in the works right now, using Khorne Berzerkers and IoK Chaos Space Marines (need the special weapons).
Thanks for the compliments! And that's exactly how this army works. Everything grants a cover save to everything else, essentially. That way, everything your opponent shoots at has an automatic 4++. Just continue leapfrogging until you get within Melta/Rapid Fire/Assault range of the enemy and then cut loose. Against more agressive armies (Dark Eldar, Blood Anges DoA, and Orks) you have to play more conservatively, using terrain and your Plague Marine rhinos to block off their assault lanes, forcing them to deal with the metal bawkses and get tied up with the Plague Marines. Then, you counter assault with Zerkers, Princes and the Defiler.
At 1500 I run an entirely different list. Unfortunately, the way the numbers work out means this type of list does best at 1,750+. At 1500, I'd drop both squads of Plasma Plague Marines and put some toys on the remaining rhinos. I'm not sure if it'll work, but it's worth a shot.
Good idea, however I think you should drop a squad of plague marines for chosen and the defiler for oblitz. Always run defilers in twos, solo would be suicide.
th3maninblak wrote:So after taking a hiatus from my Chaos Space Marines to work on my crimson fists, I decided to return to them for an upcoming 1,750 tournament in december. The list I've put together has been nothing short of brutal, and as well it should be: I'm basically making the cheesiest chaos army possible at this point.
Testing has been a blast. Anything other than a perfectly optimized list from one of the most recent codices pretty much just folds to this, and at my LGS, I can't expect to see many of those. I think I have a pretty good shot at winning. Anyway, enough rambling. Here it is.
HQ -Daemon Prince (175 points)
Wings
Mark of Nurgle
Warptime
-Daemon Prince (175 points)
Wings
Mark of Nurgle
Warptime
-8x Khorne Berzerkers (248 points)
Champion with Power Fist
Rhino with Dozer Blades
Heavy Support
-Defiler (150 points)
2x Extra DCCW
-2x Obliterators (150 points)
-2x Obliterators (150 points)
Total- 1,748
So I've got another 5 point upgrade in there somewhere, maybe a Personal Icon on the Zerkers so I can deep strike the oblits in if I need to. The list suffers from a lack of long range firepower, as per the usual with the chaos dex, but not nearly as much as most lists. It has strong shooting elements (both at close range and long) and 4 balls-to-the-wall counter assault units in the form of the Zerkers, Princes, and defiler.
Thoughts? Suggestions? I wanna win this tournament.
Edit: Added Dozer Blades to the Berzerker Rhino
Id drop a squad of PMs or the zerkers for some chosen with maxed out plasma or maxed out Meltas. maybe even run 2 squads maxed out. I know I always get good performance out of my maxed out special weapon chosen squads. And that would really help with the anti vehicle. but I mean other than that you have an excellent list already.
My list (which is similar to yours in a lot of ways) loses really to two things. Pure much armies ( a la blood angel razorback spam) and to shooty armies like tau. Hordes and superunits are, on occasion, problematic simply due to sheer dice roll volumes (nobs/warbikers in particular come to mind).
I don't see de being a huge tobe honest. There's enough ffn and tough units in the mix to handle wyches and warriors in melee if it comes to that and while blasterborn and lance spam* can* pop a,lot of the armor early on, they really don't have a good reliable way of killing the princes in succession (save for maybe an archon with a retinue). I play with raptors and chosen as dedicated anti-tank and in the later case squad mopup, so as long as you can get them there, they wreak havoc. The only unit I see in the base list with no chance against a standard de list is the poor defiler, he's probably fethed.
I don't see de being a huge tobe honest. There's enough ffn and tough units in the mix to handle wyches and warriors in melee if it comes to that and while blasterborn and lance spam* can* pop a,lot of the armor early on, they really don't have a good reliable way of killing the princes in succession (save for maybe an archon with a retinue). I play with raptors and chosen as dedicated anti-tank and in the later case squad mopup, so as long as you can get them there, they wreak havoc. The only unit I see in the base list with no chance against a standard de list is the poor defiler, he's probably fethed.
DE have disintegrators, S5 AP2 3 shots. Negates FnP, wounds PMs on 4+ no save. I get tore up by these all day lol.
And for taking out princes its just regular kabalites with all their poison weapons wounding on 4+ and splinter racks so they can reroll misses in shooting.
DE are a pain in the arse.. I hate facing them with rhinos espeacially. Plus against power armor things like disintegrators, hellions etc an reduce them to nothing even without assaulting.
If you're playing an meq army against de and aren't using the benefit of cover for your squads then you're doing it wrong =P: de really don't have a reliable way to negate that (unless they're running a razoring maybe). Again, short of an annihilation game, I don't see de CRUSHING this list if the chaos player abuses cover right. It would definitely be an uphill battle at times but not something insurmountable like you're trying to claim.
Perhaps. Its the fact that I run with a single lash sorcerer over a second prince as well that gives me a bit of positional flexibility. *shrug*
Personally, I see tau shooty lists and ig mech being the real issue. Sure you can pop parking lots but vendettas/valks with vets can really ruin your day...
dracosz wrote:If you're playing an meq army against de and aren't using the benefit of cover for your squads then you're doing it wrong =P: de really don't have a reliable way to negate that (unless they're running a razoring maybe). Again, short of an annihilation game, I don't see de CRUSHING this list if the chaos player abuses cover right. It would definitely be an uphill battle at times but not something insurmountable like you're trying to claim.
Perhaps. Its the fact that I run with a single lash sorcerer over a second prince as well that gives me a bit of positional flexibility. *shrug*
Personally, I see tau shooty lists and ig mech being the real issue. Sure you can pop parking lots but vendettas/valks with vets can really ruin your day...
Edit: damn you autocorrect...
vs over a dozen hellions with baron even cover isnt great. Just cause your not insta killled making 50 saves isnt awesome. I am not saying anyone will be crushed but my own dislike of running rhinos of any kind vs them and how power armor/cover isnt reliable depending what type of de you are against.
dracosz wrote:If you're playing an meq army against de and aren't using the benefit of cover for your squads then you're doing it wrong =P: de really don't have a reliable way to negate that (unless they're running a razoring maybe). Again, short of an annihilation game, I don't see de CRUSHING this list if the chaos player abuses cover right. It would definitely be an uphill battle at times but not something insurmountable like you're trying to claim.
Perhaps. Its the fact that I run with a single lash sorcerer over a second prince as well that gives me a bit of positional flexibility. *shrug*
Personally, I see tau shooty lists and ig mech being the real issue. Sure you can pop parking lots but vendettas/valks with vets can really ruin your day...
Edit: damn you autocorrect...
Lol, yeah I actually don't use cover that much at all with my CSM lists. I always run rhino rush so when my stuff gets popped DE usually get a turn or 2 to unload on my hand full of PMs with some nice AP2 lol.
I never run lash in my lists I've been a diehard MoN, WT, wings kinda guy myself. I know lash is suppoused to be good, but the way I play I've just found it more practical to use the nurgle build.
As far as Tau go I don't believe I've ever lost to them with my CSM, almost every time I've played Tau it was like a walk in the park compaired to the Hell I have to go through to try and beat the DE lists I've played, lol.
Dark Eldar is a weird matchup. On the one hand, Dark Lances don't have a hard time popping my transports, and poisoned weapons are awesome against my T6 Daemons, but torrenting with poisond 4+ firepower does very little against Plague Marines and Obliterators. Granted, I lean very heavily on these two things in this matchup, but it does make it winnable.
Guard is a terrible matchup for this army. I've just played against it so damn much that I know exactly what it's capable of and how to beat it. I'd say that my win/loss record versus IG is probably more due to my knowledge of the army than my CSMs, though they help a great deal.
I haven't played Tau with this exact list yet, but in my previous experience, they have to go first to have a real advantage. This army is mobile enough that one turn of unhindered movement is all it takes to get close enough to put a hurt on them. If they do win the roll off, however, you need to deploy as well as you can, using any LoS blocking terrain or cover to your advantage.
I'm almost done tweaking 2 more variants of this army, one with a Khorne/World Eaters theme and another with chosen. Those will come later.
One matchup I'm afraid of is Purifier Spam Grey Knights. Str5 force halberds, Psycannons, and Psyflenoughts seem like they'll be a huge pain.
Where GK will frustrate you the most is the prefered enemy vs your dp and oblits. As far the halberds itd be very similar to wg or assault termies with claws cept you can shoot the crap out of them since they lack wounds and models lol Have you played razorback spam ba or sw with this yet? those could be rough I would imagine.
power blob guard wouldn't be too poorly off. Guard shooting can open up transports or take down the DPs, and the melta hedge can handle most of what's left. The berzerkers would be somewhat of a problem, but PMs lose to power blobs in close combat.
KP games would go to foot guard hands down, as breaking down a 40-dude power blob is a little more challenging than acing a rhino. While there is enough MSU in this list to be competitive on objectives, no one of those units (except the berzerkers) has all that much staying power in close combat. FNP doesn't work against power weapons after all.
What you've got here does really well against lists that are similar to your kind of list (hence being good in tournaments), but I fear it would struggle against lists that excel in the world of proper terrain and no time limits, like horde armies.
Ailaros wrote:power blob guard wouldn't be too poorly off. Guard shooting can open up transports or take down the DPs, and the melta hedge can handle most of what's left. The berzerkers would be somewhat of a problem, but PMs lose to power blobs in close combat.
KP games would go to foot guard hands down, as breaking down a 40-dude power blob is a little more challenging than acing a rhino. While there is enough MSU in this list to be competitive on objectives, no one of those units (except the berzerkers) has all that much staying power in close combat. FNP doesn't work against power weapons after all.
What you've got here does really well against lists that are similar to your kind of list (hence being good in tournaments), but I fear it would struggle against lists that excel in the world of proper terrain and no time limits, like horde armies.
If the foot guard player is running a Stealth Pants Lord Comissar, then its a pretty big problem. This list does suffer against horde armies, and you've raised some points I hadn't thought of. This is a Mech/MSU list designed to bring down other Mech/MSU lists. In fact, my 1 loss to guard was to a foot list.
FNP may not work against power weapons, but T5 does. Guardsmen needing 6s to wound provides some protection, and most everything else wounds on 5. And you forget that the Daemon Princes provide a close combat rock. T6, 3+/5++, four wounds and Eternal Warrior goes a long way.
Thanks for the advice. You've definitely given me some food for thought.
Also, anyone interested in seeing the Berzerker list should PM me. What I came up with is wildly different from the posted army, so I really didn't want to put it here. It might be my next project though, as I just got done painting my counts-as Kharn the Betrayer Model, and I've been meaning to buy a landraider for some time.
One final update: Only 1 more model left to paint and this army is 100% complete! Of course, it happens to be an obliterator. I hate painting those metal monstrosities...
A lord commissar with a camo cloak. The camo cloak gives the model stealth. If even one model in a squad has stealth, the whole unit has stealth. As a lord commissar is an independent character, he can wander the field giving stealth to units who need a +1 cover save.
Ailaros wrote:A lord commissar with a camo cloak. The camo cloak gives the model stealth. If even one model in a squad has stealth, the whole unit has stealth. As a lord commissar is an independent character, he can wander the field giving stealth to units who need a +1 cover save.
Oh, thats kind of what I was guessing it was. Only I was kind of hoping it was alot more intricate than that.
Either way seems like a cool little thing. If I ran more blobs in my IG army I'd give it a try, but I'm stuck on Vet Chimera rush right now lol. Just doing too good with it in my current meta to really run anything else lol. Although I have tried some of your power blob ideas before, Ailaros. Power blobs are a great idea and work very well, assuming you know what your doing with them, lol.
Well I tried your list today and after several years of not playing I won 2 (IG and Nids) and lost 1 (Nurgle). With the lose I could not destroy his LR and I forgot that rhinos can now contest objectives. I like the list but the defiler almost did nothing the whole game. I might change out the defiler for 2 more oblites.
thevirus wrote:Well I tried your list today and after several years of not playing I won 2 (IG and Nids) and lost 1 (Nurgle). With the lose I could not destroy his LR and I forgot that rhinos can now contest objectives. I like the list but the defiler almost did nothing the whole game. I might change out the defiler for 2 more oblites.
How did you try to use the Defiler? He's not a gun platform by any means. Tell me about your tactics, and I'm glad the list worked out for you!
1st game: It wasn't destroyed until the 4th by melta from the rear. He came in the second round.
2nd game: It survived the game and never reached hand to hand,,just used him as a firing platform.
3rd game: Died 3rd round to a carnie.
I guess having that big pie plate helps but are there really alot of horde armies out there? I really never the chance to bring it into h2h so maybe to more oblites will help.
I'm usually constantly moving mine forward, taking shots with the battle cannon until I can fleet/assault. That's the trick, you have to keep forward momentum with basically everything in this army (aside from oblits).
Objective placement is usually pretty critical with this army. Placing most/all of the objectives on your opponents side of the table is a fantastic choice, as you'll be headed that way anyways.
Well when I originally posted (on page 1) I was a non believer. Sadly, it took a switch to Space Wolves to get me to see the light ironically. I built a laser-back spam list, with high mobility and a whole bunch of STR 8 (or better) spam. After seeing the success I had with that, I dusted off my CSM and built a list at 2500 (high I know, but thats the level the league at my LGS is playing at) and I am wicked excited to try it.
What do you think of small noise marine troop squads? You can milk more fire power, but they are about 30% more expensive. Not a big problem at 2500, I am thinking I might get more bang for my buck over the PM units.
I dont see a huge problem with noise marines at that point level, but there are better options. Im currently at work, so I cant post the 2500 point version of this list, but I will say that it's pretty nuts. At such a high point level, all the minor overcosts in the codex dont matter nearly as much.
Also, would you all like me to work on a full CSM tactica article?
Has anyone ever tried this tactic? (Probably better in a higher point game).
Have chosen with a heavy weapons (maybe missile launcher or lascannon), plus 4 plama guns and a few more bodies to take wounds. Since they can infiltrate, put them either on opponents side, or midfield in some cover.
This way, you have a big juicy "fire" base already set up, which can't really be ignored. If they take the bait and try and assult or attack it, then they are moving their army forward, which is exactly what you want because your army is also advancing en masse.
Anyone think that will work well with this army list's concept?
A friend of mine has been experimenting with 5 man autocannon chosen squads for some time, but 110 points for a multi wound autocannon sounds pretty bad. Likewise, your build would run around 180 points, not counting extra dudes, which is far too much for an army that is already (rightfully) investing alot of points in HQ, heavy support and troops. But your idea did get me thinking... What if we combine the two?
Thats pretty cheap for 4-6 str 7 shots that infiltrate. would I take this over a squad of plague marines or oblits? Nope. But this is definitely an option once our precious heavy support slot is maxed out. Good idea, eden. It just needed to be refined.
th3maninblak wrote:A friend of mine has been experimenting with 5 man autocannon chosen squads for some time, but 110 points for a multi wound autocannon sounds pretty bad. Likewise, your build would run around 180 points, not counting extra dudes, which is far too much for an army that is already (rightfully) investing alot of points in HQ, heavy support and troops. But your idea did get me thinking... What if we combine the two?
Thats pretty cheap for 4-6 str 7 shots that infiltrate. would I take this over a squad of plague marines or oblits? Nope. But this is definitely an option once our precious heavy support slot is maxed out. Good idea, eden. It just needed to be refined.
Yeah, that's why I said probably better only for higher point games. But once we have maxed out on our heavy support, we can consider this to further help to pop those transports. Probably the squad like what you said is more efficient. It won't need a Rhino, because it can already set up 18.5 inches away from the oppoenet's army, which is already within range of the plama guns. I notice this army build doesn't really utilise the elite choices. So, in a high point game, where we have some points to spare, this can be a consideration, because the army list while looking very good, is just a bit light on anti-tank (at least until the melta gun guys and the daemon princes get into range).
Ultimately though, I have come o the realisation that CSM is just not that efficient in terms of long range anti-tank. So, even if we try and squeeze more out of our elite choices, we are fighting a losing battle. We should concentrate on our strengths, which are our good normal troops choices. I mean ... space marines can take their dreadnaughts for 2 twin linked autocannons loadout, and IG probably has even more efficient toys in their elites. No matter what we try and squeeze in from the elite department, we probably still won't match them long range wise, so we should accept that and focus on our other strengths.
th3maninblak wrote:A friend of mine has been experimenting with 5 man autocannon chosen squads for some time, but 110 points for a multi wound autocannon sounds pretty bad. Likewise, your build would run around 180 points, not counting extra dudes, which is far too much for an army that is already (rightfully) investing alot of points in HQ, heavy support and troops. But your idea did get me thinking... What if we combine the two?
Thats pretty cheap for 4-6 str 7 shots that infiltrate. would I take this over a squad of plague marines or oblits? Nope. But this is definitely an option once our precious heavy support slot is maxed out. Good idea, eden. It just needed to be refined.
Yeah, that's why I said probably better only for higher point games. But once we have maxed out on our heavy support, we can consider this to further help to pop those transports. Probably the squad like what you said is more efficient. It won't need a Rhino, because it can already set up 18.5 inches away from the oppoenet's army, which is already within range of the plama guns. I notice this army build doesn't really utilise the elite choices. So, in a high point game, where we have some points to spare, this can be a consideration, because the army list while looking very good, is just a bit light on anti-tank (at least until the melta gun guys and the daemon princes get into range).
Ultimately though, I have come o the realisation that CSM is just not that efficient in terms of long range anti-tank. So, even if we try and squeeze more out of our elite choices, we are fighting a losing battle. We should concentrate on our strengths, which are our good normal troops choices. I mean ... space marines can take their dreadnaughts for 2 twin linked autocannons loadout, and IG probably has even more efficient toys in their elites. No matter what we try and squeeze in from the elite department, we probably still won't match them long range wise, so we should accept that and focus on our other strengths.
Exactly! As i've said before, Chaos Space Marines very well may be the strongest army within 12 inches. We cannot outshoot other armies at a long range (though we can hold our own with Defilers/Oblits), but we can withstand their shooting long enough to get in for close work. Additionally, their shooting against us is far less effective due to the abundance of T5+FNP or T6 dudes.
It all comes down to The Big 3, which is a two part concept. In this case, the relevant part of the concept is HQ, Troops, Heavy Support. These are the slots where the advantages of the CSM codex are most apparent, and as such, we need to take advantage of them before investing in anything else.
I just thought of something... As wierd as it sounds, this list needs a name. Other armies have razorspam, wolfstar, and fatecrusher, and this sure as hell isnt lashblitz. Any ideas?
th3maninblak wrote:I just thought of something... As wierd as it sounds, this list needs a name. Other armies have razorspam, wolfstar, and fatecrusher, and this sure as hell isnt lashblitz. Any ideas?
Possibly. But the name is fairly unimportant. If anyone has a stroke of genius, then please feel free to post it :-)
In the mean time, the army is 100% painted and ready for the tournament. I'm planning on getting in a few final rounds of testing on Wednesday to make sure I'm confident with the list. I still need to get in a game against Grey Knights and Necrons if at all possible. Other than that, there's not much else I can do until the tournament on Saturday. I've also started working on a full scale tactica for Competitive CSM in 5th edition. I'm a couple pages in, and still have a long way to go. I know too damn much about this army...
Haha Go for it! I think the tactica would be really useful! Not to mention it will encourage long suffering CSM players who don't understand why CSM seems to be such a hard army to win with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or how about "MEQ Can Opener"! or Can Opener for short! It really shines against other MEQ armies, and its warptime DPs, meltas are specifically meant to "open" up armor like a can opener.
Cutthroatcure wrote:I will say that the Ork army you played was in fact cheese, and I will disagree with him being the best player(Just the one who spends the most time putting together broken lists lol)..I like the idea of this army list and I myself and interested in seeing what I can throw against this list come the tourney. Do I think i will win possibly not, but I do think you have a very good list and am excited to play. Very well done...I just think you may want to think about what you will do for Speedar cause they have always been a thorn in my side and we know for a fact they will be there.
Coming from an Ork player that ran a similar list, I take the fact I build broken lists as a compliment. It was a fun game with the OP however lady luck was most definitely with Nurgle.
If he's up for a rematch tomorrow I'll be there with my orks
Cutthroatcure wrote:I will say that the Ork army you played was in fact cheese, and I will disagree with him being the best player(Just the one who spends the most time putting together broken lists lol)..I like the idea of this army list and I myself and interested in seeing what I can throw against this list come the tourney. Do I think i will win possibly not, but I do think you have a very good list and am excited to play. Very well done...I just think you may want to think about what you will do for Speedar cause they have always been a thorn in my side and we know for a fact they will be there.
Coming from an Ork player that ran a similar list, I take the fact I build broken lists as a compliment. It was a fun game with the OP however lady luck was most definitely with Nurgle.
If he's up for a rematch tomorrow I'll be there with my orks
I'm all for it, my friend. Luck wasn't so much on my side as AGAINST your Power Klaws, which still made a difference
I guess we'll see once and for all tomorrow!
And AIDS sounds like a pretty clever name, but probably too off color, lol.
I hate your batttle wagon army JD. And by that, I mean hate Ben's battlewagon army. You should feel honored that who I'm assuming is Travis thinks of you so highly. But if I play Eldar this weekend, I'll actually have an army that can fight against it. Our game against my chaos deamons didn't count.
And for the record, I'm planning on doing a battle report to. WE SHOULD ALL DO ONE.
Cutthroatcure wrote:I will say that the Ork army you played was in fact cheese, and I will disagree with him being the best player(Just the one who spends the most time putting together broken lists lol)..I like the idea of this army list and I myself and interested in seeing what I can throw against this list come the tourney. Do I think i will win possibly not, but I do think you have a very good list and am excited to play. Very well done...I just think you may want to think about what you will do for Speedar cause they have always been a thorn in my side and we know for a fact they will be there.
Coming from an Ork player that ran a similar list, I take the fact I build broken lists as a compliment. It was a fun game with the OP however lady luck was most definitely with Nurgle.
If he's up for a rematch tomorrow I'll be there with my orks
You know that I have nothing but mad love for you JD, I just have trouble against your armies ;P
And I am totally down for battle Reps at the tourney this saturday...I can not wait to see you all!
Sigh, I don't know if its just my local scene. But everyone there is shooty crazy. Its like 6 dreadnaughts with all twin linked autocannons, or space wolf missile launcher spam, or IG with all their shooty vehicles and air force.
So, what are the tactics for this list against extreme shooty armies? Some shooting I am confident this list can handle. But like some of the examples I listed above ...
Eldenfirefly wrote:Sigh, I don't know if its just my local scene. But everyone there is shooty crazy. Its like 6 dreadnaughts with all twin linked autocannons, or space wolf missile launcher spam, or IG with all their shooty vehicles and air force.
So, what are the tactics for this list against extreme shooty armies? Some shooting I am confident this list can handle. But like some of the examples I listed above ...
We do kinda lack the GKstr 8 autocannon spam. However we do have Longfang spam, and a fair amount of Mech Guard. Honestly you need a hard list to counter, and the ability to roll good dice. Mix that with a decent strategy and a couple fallbacks, and you might do alright.
You need to properly utilize LOS and get some help with cover saves to even have a chance.
Like I've stated time and time again, we can't outshoot the shooty armies.
LOS blocking terrain is HUGE, just as JD said. Try to use large pieces of terrain to your advantage and limit your opponents lanes of fire. Advance in his blind spots, and try not to use smoke launchers unless you have to. Using Plague Marine rhinos to grant your Berzerker rhinos and Daemon Princes a cover save (or to block LOS completely) is another good tactic.
I tried advancing through blind spots before. But this is not so good for this army list. The issue is that your army then gets split up quite a bit, with some units taking longer to reach them.
And even if you keep some units out of LOS, you can't keep all. FOr a super shooty army. This makes it worse because they then just fire focus on the units which they CAN see, and try and totally wipe those out, before moving on to the units which are out of LOS.
And if you want to get into combat, or that 12 inch range, you eventually still have to get into LOS as well, because if you can see him, he can obviously see you.
But if you "trade" units, after he has already shot up and eliminated a few of your units earlier (those not completely out of LOS), then you are still going to fall behind and lose in the end.
I rather charge the entire mass army all charge straight in, even through terrain risking the difficult terrain roll, pop smoke if I have to. Then turn 2, the entire army hits him all at the same time. Then because of target satuation, there's no way he can kill off that many units within one turn.
The issue of course is that even with such a tactic, that 1 or 2 rounds of shooting from these shooty armies is going to really hurt. Its not that we do't have shooting, but ours don't start to really happen until turn 2 or 3. The extreme shooty armies can fire on all guns or missile launchers from the very first turn. And I am talking about over possibly over 20 strength 8 shots from such armies in one turn!
Eldenfirefly wrote:Sigh, I don't know if its just my local scene. But everyone there is shooty crazy. Its like 6 dreadnaughts with all twin linked autocannons, or space wolf missile launcher spam, or IG with all their shooty vehicles and air force.
So, what are the tactics for this list against extreme shooty armies? Some shooting I am confident this list can handle. But like some of the examples I listed above ...
Have him set up first and just go after half of his army and roll up on them.
First was against Grey Knights. MSU style with five 5-man strike squads with Daemonhammer and Psycannon in Psybacks, another identical squad in a Landraider Godhammer with Psybolt ammo, a brotherhood champion and 2 psyflenoughts. Game type was dawn of war with 2 objectives. He attempted to play a very shooty game against me (as GK usually should) which played perfectly into my armies advantages (t5-6, FNP). By picking my assaults carefully, and minimizing his long range firepower from turn 1, I was able to almost table him, even though I suffered some significant casualties.
Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to none.
Game 2 was a rematch with JD's Orks (found on page 1). Same list, 2 5-man squads of lootas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, 1 battlewagon full of nobz, 2 trucks (various shoota/slugga boyz), a grot squad and a deffkopta with twin linked rokkits and buzz saw. Dawn of war (again... sigh), 3 objectives. This game went for 6 turns, and was down to the wire. Both of our dice were kind of tempermental at times, but all things concerned were pretty average. This game was CLOSE, and one of the biggest slugfests I've ever played. Truly a great game, with a battle report coming up soon.
I am a long time CSM player and can also attest to this list as well as the idea of running a Defiler with 2 nurgle princes...they stop seeing the defiler as a defiler and see it as just another big monster....and flying DP's usually scare people more,,,hence the defiler lives. However I do want to disagree on one thing...the basic CSM is much better than a Space Marine...the basic CSM is completly tooled out with choice of mid range firepower or assault load out on the fly....as well as every grenade you need in the basic cost..I find them a very durable unit for their cost.
First was against Grey Knights. MSU style with five 5-man strike squads with Daemonhammer and Psycannon in Psybacks, another identical squad in a Landraider Godhammer with Psybolt ammo, a brotherhood champion and 2 psyflenoughts. Game type was dawn of war with 2 objectives. He attempted to play a very shooty game against me (as GK usually should) which played perfectly into my armies advantages (t5-6, FNP). By picking my assaults carefully, and minimizing his long range firepower from turn 1, I was able to almost table him, even though I suffered some significant casualties.
Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to none.
Game 2 was a rematch with JD's Orks (found on page 1). Same list, 2 5-man squads of lootas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, 1 battlewagon full of nobz, 2 trucks (various shoota/slugga boyz), a grot squad and a deffkopta with twin linked rokkits and buzz saw. Dawn of war (again... sigh), 3 objectives. This game went for 6 turns, and was down to the wire. Both of our dice were kind of tempermental at times, but all things concerned were pretty average. This game was CLOSE, and one of the biggest slugfests I've ever played. Truly a great game, with a battle report coming up soon.
Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to 1!
Awesome! I look forward eagerly to the battle reports. I don't mind reading the Grey Knights one too. I like to read how you deal with the shooty armies because that's the biggest problems I have, and the gamers at my local store all play very shooty armies.
First was against Grey Knights. MSU style with five 5-man strike squads with Daemonhammer and Psycannon in Psybacks, another identical squad in a Landraider Godhammer with Psybolt ammo, a brotherhood champion and 2 psyflenoughts. Game type was dawn of war with 2 objectives. He attempted to play a very shooty game against me (as GK usually should) which played perfectly into my armies advantages (t5-6, FNP). By picking my assaults carefully, and minimizing his long range firepower from turn 1, I was able to almost table him, even though I suffered some significant casualties.
Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to none.
Game 2 was a rematch with JD's Orks (found on page 1). Same list, 2 5-man squads of lootas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, 1 battlewagon full of nobz, 2 trucks (various shoota/slugga boyz), a grot squad and a deffkopta with twin linked rokkits and buzz saw. Dawn of war (again... sigh), 3 objectives. This game went for 6 turns, and was down to the wire. Both of our dice were kind of tempermental at times, but all things concerned were pretty average. This game was CLOSE, and one of the biggest slugfests I've ever played. Truly a great game, with a battle report coming up soon.
Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to 1!
Was a really fun game, love the attention it attracted. Looking forward to a rematch later when I get the tactics a little better.
quickfuze wrote:I am a long time CSM player and can also attest to this list as well as the idea of running a Defiler with 2 nurgle princes...they stop seeing the defiler as a defiler and see it as just another big monster....and flying DP's usually scare people more,,,hence the defiler lives. However I do want to disagree on one thing...the basic CSM is much better than a Space Marine...the basic CSM is completly tooled out with choice of mid range firepower or assault load out on the fly....as well as every grenade you need in the basic cost..I find them a very durable unit for their cost.
This is one of the things I'm extensively writing about in my tactica. The comparison between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is a good bit deeper than just standard wargear. Though CSMs are better for a Multiple Small Units style strategy, since they can take a special weapon in a 5 man squad, all of their special and heavy weapons come at a higher price. Furthermore, our squads don't come standard with a sergeant/champion included in the cost, making the over all 10 man unit of CSM with special and heavy weapons 15-20 points more expensive than the loyalist counterpart. Furthermore, without the champion+IoCG upgrades, we don't have the luxury of such a powerful morale altering ability as And They Shall Know No Fear. Even with Ld10 and rerolls, we are only slightly ahead in that department.
This isn't to say that CSMs don't have their advantages. Being able to field a small unit with some combat presence and a special weapon is pretty big in today's meta, and the fact that we can take a 10 man squad with 2 special weapons is not to be scoffed at. Lastly, BP+CCW makes Chaos Marines great at torrenting in close combat.
Playing against Grey Knights actually isn't as hard as it seems. Yes, they are a very shooty army, but unlike Melta or Plasma Vets in IG, their shooting doesn't deny my armor saves. Hug cover in case of rends from Psycannons, but for the most part let your T5 and FNP endure. Pick your assaults carefully: a successful charge from Daemon Princes or Berzerkers on small or weakened squads will turn the tides.
Edit: Definitely a good game, Bex! I should also mention that I lost both Princes, my defiler, Berzkerkers, a squad of Plague Marines and most of my rhinos during the course of the game. It was a win, but a hard fought one!
-5x Noise Marines (195 points)
4x Sonic Blaster
Blastmaster
The Noise Marine squad brings something to the table that Chaos Lacks, which is long range firepower, but a BS 4 small blast isn't terribly accurate or reliable for damaging vehicles. Plus, almost 200 points for a single small blast crack missile doesn't seem terribly efficient. However, being able to fire lots of shots on the move is pretty damn good.
All things considered though, you cant beat the efficiency of the PM squad. 5 fearless dudes with 2 melta guns in a transport is hard to beat. Maybe 4 PM Squads to 2 Noise Marine squads in a list wouldnt be too bad of an idea...
quickfuze wrote:I am a long time CSM player and can also attest to this list as well as the idea of running a Defiler with 2 nurgle princes...they stop seeing the defiler as a defiler and see it as just another big monster....and flying DP's usually scare people more,,,hence the defiler lives. However I do want to disagree on one thing...the basic CSM is much better than a Space Marine...the basic CSM is completly tooled out with choice of mid range firepower or assault load out on the fly....as well as every grenade you need in the basic cost..I find them a very durable unit for their cost.
This is one of the things I'm extensively writing about in my tactica. The comparison between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is a good bit deeper than just standard wargear. Though CSMs are better for a Multiple Small Units style strategy, since they can take a special weapon in a 5 man squad, all of their special and heavy weapons come at a higher price. Furthermore, our squads don't come standard with a sergeant/champion included in the cost, making the over all 10 man unit of CSM with special and heavy weapons 15-20 points more expensive than the loyalist counterpart. Furthermore, without the champion+IoCG upgrades, we don't have the luxury of such a powerful morale altering ability as And They Shall Know No Fear. Even with Ld10 and rerolls, we are only slightly ahead in that department.
This isn't to say that CSMs don't have their advantages. Being able to field a small unit with some combat presence and a special weapon is pretty big in today's meta, and the fact that we can take a 10 man squad with 2 special weapons is not to be scoffed at. Lastly, BP+CCW makes Chaos Marines great at torrenting in close combat.
I am trying one list which has one squad of 10 man CSMs with 2 meltas and an icon of chaos glory, in the Rhino of course. That's 215 points only, but with a lot more choppy power and shooty power than the typical 5 man plague marine squad. I find that its the champion with power fist that makes CSM sqads expensive. But honestly, if we are comfortable with a basic 5 man plague marine squads, then we should be fine with a 10 man CSM squad also with no champion. The icon of chaos glory effectively makes them quite close to fearless and is cheap for just 10 points. Mathematically, a reroll on a leadership 9 is better than a single roll on leadership 10.
A 10 man basic CSM squad without a champion stilll means 30 stregnth 4 attacks on the charge. That is not something to be sneezed at. Yes, it might have problems with special charecters, but the plague marine squad would face the same problems too. At just 45 points more in total for substantially more choppy and shooty power, its an option to consider. Just my 2 cents of course.
Four ten man squads of CSM, the way you kit them out (which is probably the best way, possibly with a Champ) will run 860 points. Four PM squads will run 680 points. That's a pretty substantial difference.
However, I will say that CSM definitely have their uses. I debate the merits of small PM squads vs big beefy CSM units with a fellow dakka-ite regularly, and he has some good points.
Four might be overkill. But one might give a lot of flexibility and add overall choppy and shooty. My list still has 3 squads of plague marines with the 2 special weapons and nothing else. But it has a khone berserkers, like yours, and then, I replace the 4th plague marine squad with a 10 man CSM squad. That's a 45 points difference, which I can live with.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Four might be overkill. But one might give a lot of flexibility and add overall choppy and shooty. My list still has 3 squads of plague marines with the 2 special weapons and nothing else. But it has a khone berserkers, like yours, and then, I replace the 4th plague marine squad with a 10 man CSM squad. That's a 45 points difference, which I can live with.
Its definitely worth tesing. Another way I have seen them run is as a backfield objective holder. Keep them as cheap as possible and give them a long range gun.
-10x chaos space marines (215 points)
autocannon
IoCG rhino
That's too expensive, and it doesn't fit the theme and play style of your army. Your army list likes to get in close and personal. That magical 12 inch range as you quoted. Once we do this, we are turning the playstyle into one that emphasizes a more long distance approach.
And that's a heck of a lot of points to pay for just one autocannon. I tried this before, even without the Rhino. Because there is always one objective I can place in my home field and this squad would start the game permanently camped there, and firing that long range weapon throughout the whole game.
In the end, CSM just doesn't do long range as efficiently as some of the other armies out there.
I used your list last night (but swapping Plasma Plagues for 5 Chosen with Meltas) (Hope you don't mind) in two games.
Firstly I played Daemons, was a bit of a mixed army with Kugath, Blue Scribes, Tzeentch Chariot, 8 Horrors (without Bolt), 13ish horrors, 12/3 Demonettes, 12/13 Seekers, 6 Fiends and a Tzeentch Daemon Prince. Was one objective each, spearhead. The terrain and his deepstriking (as well as everything coming on turn two) mean't I had limited space to move around in, and while nothing much died in the first 3 turns I didn't seem to do much in return. Was a pretty even game, and I made a few mistakes with it. Ended up with a draw, 1-1.
Second game I played a Vulkan list, with two Land Raiders. Turn five, I was winning 3-0 on objectives, he then had a great turn 6 and 7 and killed all but one of my troop squads so ended 1-0 to me. He got very lucky with Vulkan and two Terminators to be honest, made loads of inv saves on Vulkan especially.
Its a nice list, I might use it a bit more but hopefully for Christmas I will be getting some new stuff to play my Red Corsairs list.
Just to add a little more detail:
Deamon Princes did a great job, against the Deamons it was a killing then distracting job, killed Kugath and got in the Seekers way, which then allowed me to charge them and wipe them out with the Zerkers. Second game it was a similar situation, although a bit less killing, mainly taking out Razorbacks and a couple of terminators. But they have killing power, and are a great distraction and pretty durable.
Defiler did a great job, not at killing anything. But the distraction that provides gives the Deamon Princes and Rhinos a little more time to do things.
Chosen worked well, especially against Marines. They killed a Land Raider that was on one half of the table with just one of 4 objectives, if I didn't have outflanking Chosen I would have just ignored it, but they blew it up, then died to 10 man tactical squad. But then the Rhino tank shocked them and they ran off the board . But an extra squad of plagues would be nice, will have to try it both ways and decide which works best.
I love this list and pretty much run a similar one atm. But at my LGS we normally play 2000 points and i was wondering how you would fill this list to 2000 points.
I figured the more the better and threw in another plague marine squad of 5 with 2x melta and ofc rhino and upgraded a few rhinos with havoc launchers.
Or would you go for more ranged fire power and throw in two more obliterators and extra armour the rhinos with last points?
Another melta plague marine squad is a perfect way bring this up to 2,000 points, and Combi-weapons/Havoc Launchers are perfect for filling in the spare points. You have all the right ideas! :-)
Came in 2nd out of about a dozen people, so not bad! Faced Space Wolves, Chaos Daemons, and Space Marines. Full battle report on the Chaos Daemons Match coming soon (great fricken game, btw, complete slug fest), with descriptions of the other two matchups as well.
Missed 1st place by less than 200 victory points, because me and the winner were tied on battle points. Btw, Daemons won it. Epic day.
I played this list today but swapped out the berzerkers and the defiler and a prince for a LR, Abadon and 4 terminators with LC. Played agains GK. I lost to kill points as objectives tied. I am going to try this list to a T next.
Post a quick summary of the tourney here, what tactics you used against aech army there. Are there any things you might want to change with regards to the army list?
Sorry I havent been posting much. Been working a lot, and in the process of moving, so my life is pretty damn busy, lol.
FYI, each match had a different primary objective, but all secondary objectives were the same. Each player had a "keg" carried with an infantry squad of their choice, one per side. To take your opponents keg, you had to break or kill the squad carrying it and then be within 2 inches of it. Bonus points were also given for killing more HQs than you lost, and destroying your opponents most expensive unit.
Round 1- Space Wolves, 2 objectives.
Pretty standard fare. 3 squads of Grey Hunters with melta guns+combi melta wolf guard in rhinos, 2 squads of 6 missile launcher long fangs, 2 rune priests, dreadnought with Lascannon/Missile Launcher, and a land raider full of bloodclaws with a wolf priest and a DOUBLE POWERFIST WIELDING WOLF GUARD!!! Sorry, thought that part was cool, haha. I managed to focus fire on his long fangs, killing them over the course of the first couple turns. Blood claw blob turned one of my daemon princes into pudding, and in turn were hacked apart by my Berzerkers. I got full points on this one, and came pretty close to tabling him, even though I suffered some heavy losses.
Round 2- Daemons, Kill Points
This is the battle report. It'll be up by weeks end, so I don't want to divulge all the details. In the end, he beat me by 1 kill point, but I had him on Victory Points and had claimed all of the secondary objectives, so I came out a little bit ahead.
Round 3- Space Marines (imperial fists), Claiming Table Quarters
His list, while unconventional, was pretty damn cool, and his army was BEAUTIFULLY painted. Like, Heavy Metal beautiful. He was running Lysander with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider redeemer, along side a scout squad, tac squad in a rhino, predator, vindicator, 2 land speeder typhoons, and a second landraider godhammer (empty). I siezed after denying a flank, leaving lysander out in the open. and kind of crunched his army up from one side, eventually sweeping him. Lysander, however, refused to die (he was carrying the keg), and managed to kill a rhino, a squad of plague marines, a squad of khorne berzerkers, and 2 obliterators. I won, but couldnt get full points because Lysander decided to kick my entire army in the teeth.
So... I'm at a crossroads. On the one hand, I have over 4,000 points of Chaos Space Marines of assorted gods and legions, collectively forming the black legion, and now I have to ask... is it time to walk away from chaos for a while and continue expanding my burgeoning army of Crimson Fists? Or should I flip the bird to the Loyalist scum and expand my chaos army until we get a new codex, at which point I will CONTINUE to expand?
I'm leaning towards the latter, thanks to another dakka-ite, but I'm looking to all of you for advice now as well.
th3maninblak wrote:So... I'm at a crossroads. On the one hand, I have over 4,000 points of Chaos Space Marines of assorted gods and legions, collectively forming the black legion, and now I have to ask... is it time to walk away from chaos for a while and continue expanding my burgeoning army of Crimson Fists? Or should I flip the bird to the Loyalist scum and expand my chaos army until we get a new codex, at which point I will CONTINUE to expand?
I'm leaning towards the latter, thanks to another dakka-ite, but I'm looking to all of you for advice now as well.
You could do both at the same time, buy 2 things of Chaos to 1 thing of Fists or something like that. Part of the hobby is collecting after all.
If that's not an option I would stick with Chaos for a few reasons, new book coming soon and will probably be over the top. You seem a lot more passionate about Chaos. At the end of the day it is a game/hobby after all it comes down to having fun. Less people at our FLGS play Chaos. This is of course is IMHO.
th3maninblak wrote:Sorry I havent been posting much. Been working a lot, and in the process of moving, so my life is pretty damn busy, lol.
FYI, each match had a different primary objective, but all secondary objectives were the same. Each player had a "keg" carried with an infantry squad of their choice, one per side. To take your opponents keg, you had to break or kill the squad carrying it and then be within 2 inches of it. Bonus points were also given for killing more HQs than you lost, and destroying your opponents most expensive unit.
Round 1- Space Wolves, 2 objectives.
Pretty standard fare. 3 squads of Grey Hunters with melta guns+combi melta wolf guard in rhinos, 2 squads of 6 missile launcher long fangs, 2 rune priests, dreadnought with Lascannon/Missile Launcher, and a land raider full of bloodclaws with a wolf priest and a DOUBLE POWERFIST WIELDING WOLF GUARD!!! Sorry, thought that part was cool, haha. I managed to focus fire on his long fangs, killing them over the course of the first couple turns. Blood claw blob turned one of my daemon princes into pudding, and in turn were hacked apart by my Berzerkers. I got full points on this one, and came pretty close to tabling him, even though I suffered some heavy losses.
Round 2- Daemons, Kill Points
This is the battle report. It'll be up by weeks end, so I don't want to divulge all the details. In the end, he beat me by 1 kill point, but I had him on Victory Points and had claimed all of the secondary objectives, so I came out a little bit ahead.
Round 3- Space Marines (imperial fists), Claiming Table Quarters
His list, while unconventional, was pretty damn cool, and his army was BEAUTIFULLY painted. Like, Heavy Metal beautiful. He was running Lysander with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider redeemer, along side a scout squad, tac squad in a rhino, predator, vindicator, 2 land speeder typhoons, and a second landraider godhammer (empty). I siezed after denying a flank, leaving lysander out in the open. and kind of crunched his army up from one side, eventually sweeping him. Lysander, however, refused to die (he was carrying the keg), and managed to kill a rhino, a squad of plague marines, a squad of khorne berzerkers, and 2 obliterators. I won, but couldnt get full points because Lysander decided to kick my entire army in the teeth.
Save your money mate and buy lots of shiny things in the summer when chaos come to play, the more ca$h you have the more awesomeness you can buy
I agree with Brother at this point chaos will be getting new models more and likely when the codex comes out so i would save money for the new stuff. Only things i would buy are Oblits because you only have 4 and 9 is the fun place to be, also i dont see them getting worse in the next codex. and possibly a greater daemon because it gives more options for the list you have now.
I would stick with Chaos for a few reasons, new book coming soon and will probably be over the top. You seem a lot more passionate about Chaos. At the end of the day it is a game/hobby after all it comes down to having fun. Less people at our FLGS play Chaos. This is of course is IMHO.
I know I'm new, but maybe my thought process will help you. I ended up caving, and going with a Blood Angels army instead of CSM. The reason for this is, as a new player, I wanted an army I could learn with that I didn't have to struggle to win with. A friend pointed out to me that if I continually lost to 5e armies, I may get frustrated and quit.
The other reason is with all the rumors flying around, it seems like I'd have to buy quite a bit more with the potential of things being replaced, such as Khorne Berzerkers with jump packs. Also, if the new codex focuses on Legions, I might have to start over with my army anyway, because I would want to go with a specific Legion.
That said, I'm brand new to WH40K, so my advice probably doesn't carry much weight. I just think it'd be a disadvantage to sinking money into something that may or may not be worthwhile in the future.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you all are right. I've got 2 more things to snag for my Crimson Fists army to get it to 1750, and then I'll just save up money for Chaos Legions. Also, as for Crash, Welcome to 40k! And you should have went with chaos, my friend
You seem to be pretty well covered chaos wise already. For me, I might just get a few more small things, nothing too major, and I should be set until the new book comes out too.
I am not so worried actually. I think fast attack options should be getting at least one decent option, so since I have none of that for now. Can just wait. Other stuff like Defilers, heavy support stuff will always be needed. Its good to have variety anyway.
I'm unable to quote on my touchPhone but I disagree about chaos marines basic sucking. 10 with 2 melts and fist with undivided icon is expensive but in the pAst I have found to be a lot better at assault in a rhino. Sure they lack f p and toughness but having dual lashing winged sorcerers join two squads of outflanking chosen is dangerously effective and denies your opponent easy killops as they are ics. My army I'm working on has about 65 models in 1850 and they are all basic besides sorcerers and obis
th3maninblak wrote:Yeah, I'm pretty sure you all are right. I've got 2 more things to snag for my Crimson Fists army to get it to 1750, and then I'll just save up money for Chaos Legions. Also, as for Crash, Welcome to 40k! And you should have went with chaos, my friend
Thanks! I still plan to. I just want to get a playable BA list first, so I can start learning. For Chaos, I already have a CSM squad, Rhino, and Terminators.
I know I'm coming in late in the game here but I'd just like to mention that this list is incredibly solid.
I also agree with the OP's argument for a defiler. Oblits are awesome but spamming 3 squads of them is not the answer. I typically run either a defiler or a vindicator to help deal with heavy infantry. PC's just don't kill nobz and paladins.
Sadly the current CSM codex doesn;t really leave us with many options as to what to field. I own every model in the codex and have tried all of them, the standard tourney lists are that way for a reason. It's not about good or bad it's about efficiency
Pretty solid list.
Only trouble I think you would have is with dark eldar. Poison weapons would destroy your daemons and oblits. Vipers and the usual lance spam would wreck your rhino's and squads.
But only dark eldar. You could handle anything else fair easily I think
daBIGboss wrote:Pretty solid list.
Only trouble I think you would have is with dark eldar. Poison weapons would destroy your daemons and oblits. Vipers and the usual lance spam would wreck your rhino's and squads.
But only dark eldar. You could handle anything else fair easily I think
Dark Eldar is a tough match, but poisoned 4+ weapons do almost nothing against Plague Marines, and very little against oblits. My daemons, on the other hand, die horribly.
And I agree that the CSM codex has few viable options, at least compared to other books. But those options that we have are absolutely nuts.
I will agree with you for sure there, CSM can def be competetive with the right player behind them. The problem with having limited options is that you lose any element of suprise
Both DE and GK typically give me the worst trouble, but both are beatable.
Defeatmyarmy wrote: I'm unable to quote on my touchPhone but I disagree about chaos marines basic sucking. 10 with 2 melts and fist with undivided icon is expensive but in the pAst I have found to be a lot better at assault in a rhino. Sure they lack f p and toughness but having dual lashing winged sorcerers join two squads of outflanking chosen is dangerously effective and denies your opponent easy killops as they are ics. My army I'm working on has about 65 models in 1850 and they are all basic besides sorcerers and obis
I do agree the Csm are not Sucky. And the 2 Sorcerers join to the outflanking units is dangerously effective because you're Cheating!!!! and your opponent needs to learn that if you join the Sorcerer with that unit it loses the Outflank USR. (Note the * next to Outflank in the RuleBook)
Defeatmyarmy wrote: I'm unable to quote on my touchPhone but I disagree about chaos marines basic sucking. 10 with 2 melts and fist with undivided icon is expensive but in the pAst I have found to be a lot better at assault in a rhino. Sure they lack f p and toughness but having dual lashing winged sorcerers join two squads of outflanking chosen is dangerously effective and denies your opponent easy killops as they are ics. My army I'm working on has about 65 models in 1850 and they are all basic besides sorcerers and obis
I do agree the Csm are not Sucky. And the 2 Sorcerers join to the outflanking units is dangerously effective because you're Cheating!!!! and your opponent needs to learn that if you join the Sorcerer with that unit it loses the Outflank USR. (Note the * next to Outflank in the RuleBook)
The MoK princes will go down to small arms fire easily.The Zerkers have to go in a rhino or else they'll get shredded, you need to have Nurgle or Lash princes or else they kinda suck...
I don't know how Chaos Space Marines would come out with more models because some of them are SOOOO PRETTY! However, I can see why putting them aside is an attractive thing to do! It's hard to keep up competitively with some of theses new codexes, without being full of cheese. In my opinion, I've poured my soul into making a competitive list with a beautiful black legion scheme and REFUSE to replace it. I would say, stick with chaos and the gods will reward you greatly. The rumors of our codex are starting to surface, but only time will tell what gets fixed. Hoping, it starts with our Lords, tanks, bikes, summoned demons, and AIR SUPPPPPORT! Legion for life!
I ran a very different shooty syle list the other day from this one, and it still worked out ok. I was quite happy. Its a change from something that looks very tourney style.
HQ: Sorceror with warptime.
Troops: 4 squads of 10 CSM, 1 lascannon each, in 4 Rhinos. (no other upgrades).
Heavy support: 1 Landraide, 1 tri las predator, 1 Defiler.
I had a LOT of lascannon shooting. And when they got close, they were surprised by 40 CSM and 1 squad of Zerkers led by the Sorceror countercharging them.
The basic sorceror lord, with force sword, pistol, and warptime, is a pretty mean combat monster. Put him in a zerker sqaud and that squad will munch through most things in close combat.
I placed my Defiler behind my LR so that it would get a cover save. And my LR stood there and shot for many turns. Only when opponent got close, then I charged it forward, unloaded my zerkers, and charged them. So, I got maximum use out of my LR.
My Defiler also got maximum usage. It shot for at least 4 turns, after which it fleet forward and charged into an assault terminator squad. Took down a special charecter before those storm hammers killed it too.
All in all, very happy with this new more shooty list. I still have a variant of the list the OP posted. That would be the one that charges forward first round with 5 Rhinos and 2 Daemon Princes.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I ran a very different shooty syle list the other day from this one, and it still worked out ok. I was quite happy. Its a change from something that looks very tourney style.
HQ: Sorceror with warptime.
Troops: 4 squads of 10 CSM, 1 lascannon each, in 4 Rhinos. (no other upgrades).
Heavy support: 1 Landraide, 1 tri las predator, 1 Defiler.
I had a LOT of lascannon shooting. And when they got close, they were surprised by 40 CSM and 1 squad of Zerkers led by the Sorceror countercharging them.
The basic sorceror lord, with force sword, pistol, and warptime, is a pretty mean combat monster. Put him in a zerker sqaud and that squad will munch through most things in close combat.
I placed my Defiler behind my LR so that it would get a cover save. And my LR stood there and shot for many turns. Only when opponent got close, then I charged it forward, unloaded my zerkers, and charged them. So, I got maximum use out of my LR.
My Defiler also got maximum usage. It shot for at least 4 turns, after which it fleet forward and charged into an assault terminator squad. Took down a special charecter before those storm hammers killed it too.
All in all, very happy with this new more shooty list. I still have a variant of the list the OP posted. That would be the one that charges forward first round with 5 Rhinos and 2 Daemon Princes.
I'd run Auto/Las Predators over tri las, and I'd double up on them as the defiler kinda sticks out in that list. Only other change I'd make is add a champ with a fist to the zerker squad. Other than that, the warptime sorcerer is a cheap and effective HQ choice when you just need a dude to fill the slot, and the list looks ok.
Also, I've been working on a modified version of a CSM list that was posted on Bell of Lost Souls a while back called "The Blood Parade". It involves Abaddon and Kharn in a landraider, which sounds absurd, but when you consider that space wolves invest tons of points in wolfstars, Grey Knights have absurdly costed paladin squads, and even necrons have 20 man bricks of warriors+Independent characters, it doesn't seem so crazy. It might even work. List to come shortly.
Also, the tactica is about half done, and I'm working on the wrightup for the bat-rep, but chrismas, work, moving and being sick have all taken priority. Sorry for the delay, folks
Autocannons are the awesome, I don't know though cause then you have some marines sitting back and if they can't range/los you are wasting turns with them. When I was playing Scott I kept his long fangs where they couldn't use the missile launchers, pretty much all his long fangs did was drew a line on the board where I couldn't move beyond, but I like sticking in my corner shooting.
Just to mesh with your army a little better and give you some mobility why not a predator if you are looking at autocannons?
If you are looking at infantry why not termies with reaper autocannons?
Hey, new here just theorycrafting a 2000 pt list as thats what my local games workshops seem to play the most. I liked the playstyle of your list so I modified it slightly.
was thinking of spending the leftover points in turning one of the chosen plasmas to a missile launcher in order to give it some range and add to the versatility of infiltrating. Im completely new to 40k and dont have any practical knowledge so any input would be appreciated.
8 Autocannon shots a turn is nothing to be scoffed at.
Also, drop the second defiler from the list, or give it all the CCWs ever. It's trying to do long range fire support, which the oblits do better. Other than that, looks ok.
Well I like the idea of running a second defiler (somewhat for the fluff, also target priority, and more early game long range/ anti-horde?) and the thought is if I flank my chosen I can either (depending on terrain, objectives etc) run the defiler up the side to support the flank move, or run him with his brother behind the bulk of the army but keep him there for the cover save and use him as fire support without worrying about dropping a pie plate on my own guys. This allows me also to extend my range of engagement for my main force and keep my plasmas using the rapid fire, and if needed he can fleet and still has his base cc.
The idea was to try and increase the versatility of the army at all distances and against more army types. Keep in mind I have only watched a couple games so far is all.
Also are you talking about 8 autocannon shots from your havocs? how are they firing twice a turn?
The chosen in the list look fine, but I like running them with 3 meltas and 2 flamers. And the defilers best gun is the battle cannon, which prevents it from firing anything else in that turn.
Autocannons are heavy 2 weapons, meaning that 4 guys with autocannons will put out 8 str7 shots a turn. This will shred light armor.
Im finding that the best part about a well built CSM army is the ability to face down any other type of list and not feel beaten by any particular matchup. For example, my space marines lose badly to eldar, but my CSM can beat them handily. I never feel hopeles against any army.
MartiniPunk wrote:Hey, new here just theorycrafting a 2000 pt list as thats what my local games workshops seem to play the most. I liked the playstyle of your list so I modified it slightly.
was thinking of spending the leftover points in turning one of the chosen plasmas to a missile launcher in order to give it some range and add to the versatility of infiltrating. Im completely new to 40k and dont have any practical knowledge so any input would be appreciated.
HQ Ok in this list I truly think Lash princes would be better you have 2 pie plates and 3 Cupcakes lashing them into a ball obliterate whatever and move on.
Elite
I dont like the Plasma set up, yes it is a infantry or MC hunter but with out a Rhino what are they going to do Infiltrate maybe within 12in then get eaten. If anything I would drop the Plasma and 1 melta guy from the other squad and get a Rhino for the Meltas. being able to Outflank and sneaky snake a kill point on the side of the board is huge.
*also in this spot there are so many good things that people just don't use that are really good.
Troops
Beserkers are great at what they do. Dont run them head long into enemy territory run them second. They are one of the best Clean up units in the game us then as such. Be smart and look at what ur playing against if you need to get them there fast then that what you need to do, But more in likely you are playing against some mech force so you need to pop the cans to get to the Marsh mellow Fluff inside.
Plague Marines are good and 5 mans are normally the best number for them.
* Dont forget about CSM they are 1 of the best units in the codex.
Heavy
Oblits are the best unit in the codex. That being said running 3 isn't always correct. They are a huge point sink and work just as well at 2 as they are at 3, so if you drop one this would give you points to run other stuff.
Defilers - I use to Run mine the exact same as you 1 stock with extra CC and the other with Las Havoc. Logic states if you lose ur gun you still have a las cannon and havoc launcher. In this Situation to be honest you would still have a reaper autocannon and the gun is still good, So there's no reason to use up the points for something it already has.
For the list I would drop the 2nd Defiler and go with 2 Oblits that's just me though.
In the end I would probably run Somthing that looked more like this:
Hq 2x Lash Prince w/wings
Greater Daemon
Elite
5 Choosen
3 melta 2 flamer, Icon, Champ, Rhino - combi melta
Dreadnaught
DCC, Missile Launcher
Troops
8 Bezerkers
Champ, PF, Personal Icon, Rhino - Combi melta
10 CSM Champ, PF, IoCG, Melta, Rhino - combi melta
5 CSM Champ, IoCG Rhino - Havoc Launcher
7 Lesser Daemons
7 Lesser Daemons
Heavy
2 Oblits
2 Oblits
Defiler
DCC
This should be exactly 2000pts
* for 1750 drop everything off Rhinos drop 1 flamer from choosen drop lesser Daemons to 5 each and drop Defiler.
As for the Autocannons I like them but the down fall to them is they cant split fire, and the unit of 5 guys is 5 points more then a stock Defiler and they aren't fearless. Also Defiler is a Fire Magnet saving your Rhinos from being popped. A havoc team Doesnt have that effect. I can see it being fine if you are running a Deathstar unit like Kharn and Abby in a LR, at that point the havocs may be ok, so would Oblits though and they might be still better.
As for feeling like you are on Equal ground with every army I can see how you feel that way as well except in Kill point missions. With having on Average 5 Easy kill points on board that can be taken out at any moment it just sucks to think about, But its not a battle that cant be won it just makes you think about the game a lot more while playing it.
Even over Battle Reports, I bet some people would love to see a P&M of all the stuff you build and work on! I know I would sure love to see it since I can't while I am at school my friend!
So I promise that the report will be up by tomorrow night. I've put it off for too long because of my hectic schedule, and I'm sorry. As for the tactica, it's over half done, and will be finished by weeks end. It's looooooooong.
He plays with a lot of war walkers and wraithlords and the game we had was really back and forth for a turn or two but eventually I was able to come away with a clean win by turn four (the only squad that I lost were the chosen who were sadly destroyed by a vengeful wraithlord). I don't forsee too many issues with this list.
