guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Personally, I started 40k 5 years ago and necrons were my first foray into the universe, and I loved them very much the way they were. I just really don't like the new ideas in the codex, some of them are good, others make me want to switch to fantasy.

bombboy1252 wrote:people love to whine and complain about the dumbest gak........

Jon Garrett wrote:
Then they decide to go and kill the Sisters in a convent and daub there armour with the blood. Because, for some reason, THIS Chaos incursion can corrupt Grey Knights when no other ever has and they need a 'talisman of purity' or some such. Even though it mentions in the intro's big black bold bit says that Grey Knights are incorruptible, and they at least used to have the best anti-daemon defences built directly into there armour (dunno if that's in the current book, or if there armour is simply shinier power and terminator armour). It's not a huge deal, because those sisters were dead anyway, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Zweischneid wrote:Because people are stupid (cue people hating on Draigo, but find it perfectly acceptable that a single Eldar Phoenix Lord defends an entire planet from a Tyranid Fleet planetfall... singlehandedly!!!.. pretty much the definition of hypocricy).

Grimtuff wrote:
It is not WHAT is written. It is the WAY it is written. The Draigo thing could have been played out like the tragedy it is supposed to be (your Grand Master is literally lost in Hell, fighting for survival and thrown a bone occasionally to comeback into realspace but not for long...) but Ward wrote it like some fanboi spouting off poor rhetoric of "and then he did this, and this, and this..." It reads like something I wrote in primary school English.

TiB wrote:I just still don't understand why a multi-million dollar company like GW lets it's codices be written by one guy where other, much smaller companies would put an entire design team on there, followed by a good round of R&D.

Matt Ward is, in my opinion, a competent rules designer. But rules writing and fluff writing have nothing in common with each other apart from being comprised of the same alphabet.

If they'd just have a pool of designers to tackle the rules, mr. Ward among them, and have another team, for example Abnett and peers, handle the fluff things would be a lot better.

Sephyr wrote:
However, I think Ward is a sign of a larger issue, one you can see the effect of leafing through Brian Herbert's latter Dune books, Twilight schlockfests and so on: fanfiction replacing actual writing.

Nothing against fanfiction per se, but its standards (shameles fanboyism, slurping crowd favorites, unrepentant worfing and so on) are becoming the rule. Screw having a decent concept or narrative. All that matters is having your favorite guys winning and looking good while at it.

da001 wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
However, I think Ward is a sign of a larger issue, one you can see the effect of leafing through Brian Herbert's latter Dune books, Twilight schlockfests and so on: fanfiction replacing actual writing.

Nothing against fanfiction per se, but its standards (shameles fanboyism, slurping crowd favorites, unrepentant worfing and so on) are becoming the rule. Screw having a decent concept or narrative. All that matters is having your favorite guys winning and looking good while at it.

You like some fluff and all of a sudden it is retconned to oblivion, and you have fanfiction instead. Adding new things (let´s say Draigo) is not bad for me, no matter how badly it is written. I am fine with Codex: Space Marines, Codex: BA and even Codex: GK. But I really started disliking Ward with Codex: Necrons. Which is his best written codex till date, but scratched off a lot of stuff I liked. I do not want Ward to do anything regarding any army I like, since he changes things.

Grimtuff wrote:Indeed. I'm dreading who is going to write the Tau codex, if it's him all of the mystery will be sucked out of certain elements of the army, namely Farsight. He'll just make him "LOLZ HE'S A KHORNATE TAU DOOD RIGHT COZ HE'S RED AND LIKES HTH". No mystery as to his agenda like there currently is (which is what made Necrons appealing to me. Some things should not have the curtain pulled back on them, which is also why I dislike the HH books, but that's another issue) Ward spells it out for you, no mystery, no subtlety.

Zweischneid wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:Indeed. I'm dreading who is going to write the Tau codex, if it's him all of the mystery will be sucked out of certain elements of the army, namely Farsight. He'll just make him "LOLZ HE'S A KHORNATE TAU DOOD RIGHT COZ HE'S RED AND LIKES HTH". No mystery as to his agenda like there currently is (which is what made Necrons appealing to me. Some things should not have the curtain pulled back on them, which is also why I dislike the HH books, but that's another issue) Ward spells it out for you, no mystery, no subtlety.

/shrug

Anything is better than a Tau-Codex by Kelly which would probaly treat us with Tau-Cavalry riding giant Cyber-fish with lasers and a-sexual, genetically engineered and indoctrinated soldiers stealing the local Orca in mid-battle to go womanizing in the next town, as well as the inevitable Ethereal brooding endlessly on a gloomy, skull-coverd seat as he fondles skulls with their long, Mr. Burns-style fingers and awaits the end of the universe because he never really got over his childhood where the other mean Tau-bullies called him names and failed to adequatly worship his superiour intelligence.

TutorialBoss wrote:It's as egregious an imbalance as Grey Hunters over Blood Claws.

Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

Grimtuff wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

You mean Mat Ward has not been trying yet. Oh dear...

Vaktathi wrote:

guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Primarily because he tends to write fluff in a manner that you'd expect of a middle-school kids bad internet fanfic, often contradictory to previously established fluff. All too often it reads like something written by a fanboy, not a professional games designer. Now, granted, 40k has always had an element of sillyness and "larger than life" to it, but there's a limit before stuff starts to sound silly even for 40k.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Primarily because he tends to write fluff in a manner that you'd expect of a middle-school kids bad internet fanfic, often contradictory to previously established fluff. All too often it reads like something written by a fanboy, not a professional games designer. Now, granted, 40k has always had an element of sillyness and "larger than life" to it, but there's a limit before stuff starts to sound silly even for 40k.

Again we go with the assumption that he is actually the one writing all the fluff in the book. The same issues are present in three other books: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Tyranids. Ward did not helm those projects.

Zweischneid wrote:A rare hickup?

I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

Zweischneid wrote:
I know the results are stellar, in both fluff and (...)

TutorialBoss wrote:Are you deliberately trolling? Because everything you just said about Kelly has been mirrored once, if not multiple times, in Ward's books.

Durza wrote:
If he puts his name on the cover of the book and does the interviews for the models, he accepts responsibility for that which is contained within.

TutorialBoss wrote:Are you deliberately trolling? Because everything you just said about Kelly has been mirrored once, if not multiple times, in Ward's books. Grey Knights Vs Sisters.

Flying Dreadnaughts

and Deep-striking Land Raiders.

Razor/Predator spam.

Kanluwen wrote:

Durza wrote:
If he puts his name on the cover of the book and does the interviews for the models, he accepts responsibility for that which is contained within.

You can't have it both ways. It can't be a "rare hiccup" if Kelly utterly feths things up, but some kind of overarching element of ridiculous powercreep when Ward does it. It also can't be "just a mistake" when Cruddace does far worse things to the fluff (Valkyrie "Vendetta", several ridiculous "new" Leman Russ variants, bringing back the fething "hotshot" Lasguns) but then when Ward does it "OMFG HE'S RUINING 40k!".

Hypocrisy, thy name is hater.

Durza wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Durza wrote:
If he puts his name on the cover of the book and does the interviews for the models, he accepts responsibility for that which is contained within.

You can't have it both ways. It can't be a "rare hiccup" if Kelly utterly feths things up, but some kind of overarching element of ridiculous powercreep when Ward does it. It also can't be "just a mistake" when Cruddace does far worse things to the fluff (Valkyrie "Vendetta", several ridiculous "new" Leman Russ variants, bringing back the fething "hotshot" Lasguns) but then when Ward does it "OMFG HE'S RUINING 40k!".

Hypocrisy, thy name is hater.

I don't actually recall excusing either Kelly or Cruddace for their codices. Perhaps you could point out where I did so I can remedy that. As far as I can see, I didn't even mention Ward in my post at all. It applies to all codex writers.

Zweischneid wrote:

TutorialBoss wrote:Are you deliberately trolling? Because everything you just said about Kelly has been mirrored once, if not multiple times, in Ward's books.

Am I? Works the inverse too. Everything ever criticised about the work by Ward is found in abundance and far greater severity in the books of the other writers, notably Kelly, and with far greater frequency.

If pointing out flaws in their books without mentioning possible mirror errors found in Ward's work is trolling, than so is critique of Ward without referencing the corresponding screw-ups of the like of Kelly and Cruddace; e.g. pretty much every "anti-Ward-thread" on this board ever.

Kanluwen wrote:

Durza wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Durza wrote:
If he puts his name on the cover of the book and does the interviews for the models, he accepts responsibility for that which is contained within.

You can't have it both ways. It can't be a "rare hiccup" if Kelly utterly feths things up, but some kind of overarching element of ridiculous powercreep when Ward does it. It also can't be "just a mistake" when Cruddace does far worse things to the fluff (Valkyrie "Vendetta", several ridiculous "new" Leman Russ variants, bringing back the fething "hotshot" Lasguns) but then when Ward does it "OMFG HE'S RUINING 40k!".

Hypocrisy, thy name is hater.

I don't actually recall excusing either Kelly or Cruddace for their codices. Perhaps you could point out where I did so I can remedy that. As far as I can see, I didn't even mention Ward in my post at all. It applies to all codex writers.

I'm not addressing it explicitly to you. That was addressed to everyone who participates in these hypocritical discussions.

You just happen to have made the statement allowing me to address it. Would you like me to edit it to reflect that?

bombboy1252 wrote:Ward writes good fluff, and even better rules.

I can't find a single thing wrong with the Necron codex.

TutorialBoss wrote:
I read through far more of these threads about Matt Ward than I ought to. But what that experience has shown me is that they always (d)evolve into a comparative list of Kelly and Cruddace's merits within the page. So you're kind of railing against a straw man there.

Also, I expect if you were to poll regular players to make a comprehensive list of 'screw ups' in terms of mechanics and under-costing/balance, you would find that Matty does it with more frequency than the others. That's really why you get so much whining about Ward in the first place.

TutorialBoss wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:Ward writes good fluff, and even better rules.

I can't find a single thing wrong with the Necron codex.

Early reports from Necron players I know indicate significant issues with internal balance, which is more or less a hallmark of Ward's books.

TutorialBoss wrote:
Early reports from Necron players I know indicate significant issues with internal balance, which is more or less a hallmark of Ward's books.

bombboy1252 wrote:
Than please, tell me what is overpowered......or go back to the Grey Knight threads were you can yell "OP" like it's going out of style.

TutorialBoss wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:
Than please, tell me what is overpowered......or go back to the Grey Knight threads were you can yell "OP" like it's going out of style.

It's more a case of what is underpowered/overcosted. But it has one of the same effects as having overpowered choices. I.e. cookie-cutter army lists.

Zweischneid wrote:
Again. Long Fang spam, Melta-vet-spam and Venom-spam are widely acknowledged to be the worst offenders and the books brining by far the least variety of lists to the (meta-)game. Internal balance problems (which may or may not be in the Necron Codex) is not the hallmark of Ward. In comparison, his books have consistently produced greater variety than those of the other two. Even if the Necron-Codex happens to have the "new Long fangs" in them, it'd would still be an exception for Ward but a sad familiar with the others.

bombboy1252 wrote: Than what is "underpowered/undercosted" in the Necron codex.....

TutorialBoss wrote:
I'll admit that none of Kelly's or Cruddaces books have perfect internal balance and that there are clearly more and less cost-effective units. But as a test, think about what lists you could create from Kelly and Cruddace's books if you took away the the 'worst offender' choice in each non-troop area of the FoC. Then do the same for Ward's books. Literally, these are the '2nd tier' lists from the respective codices.

Zweischneid wrote:A rare hickup?

In 4th Edition, invincible Eldar Falcons nearly broke the game.

The Ork-Codex turn wound-allocation abuse into a viable strategy and Ghaz is still the most loopsided Character out there

Grey Hunters are about the best thing there is in Space Wolves. He actually one-upped wound-allocation abuse with his brilliantly invented He-Man-style Wolf-cavalry, made character-sniping fashinable again with JoTWW, once again displaying utter ignorance of all shooting and wound allocation rules in 40K. Not to mention randomly creepy fluff like Space Wolves attacking SoBs out of the blue for the shitsof it and Mowgli-Marines bonding with Wolves. Oh.. Long Fangs and the utter stupidity of Counter Attack which ultimately turned Space Wolves into the Paragon-Gun-Line chapter.

Dark Eldar tops the crap-cake with stupidity like the Decapitator-wielding-Decaptitator, a Mandrake-reinvisioning that seems largly to exist to curry favours with World of Warcraft fans of Daemonhunters and, like Space Wolves, another utter rectal-abuse of an armies style, turning the formerlly lauded finesse-army into the most brainless MSU-spam currently in the 40K catalogue.

I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

Kanluwen wrote:And quite frankly: Daemons have always been countered by Grey Knights.

Experiment 626 wrote:As much as a few people rag on Kelly for SW's suppossedly being this unbeatable 'uber force... HE didn't kill an entire freaking game system!!! ("because THEY'RE DAEMONS!!1!11!!1!!!!")
Of course, Ward then went on to utterly kill off Codex: Daemons by introducing that farce of a GK codex... As a Daemon player, it's sad a day when the only game I can get at the local store is against the circle of 9 year olds who run the black reach set.
Honestly, the only people I've met who rave about Ward's books as being this blissful utopia of well-balanced rules are those who play BA's/GK's/SM's in some of their most abusive forms... (ironic that - no?!)

Considering it's been 8 months since the grey knight book came out, the fact that it's still so widely hated does imply it's pretty badly balanced externally. SW's have always been hated no matter what edition is being played, and it's cool to hate on Eldar because they're so specialised.
Grey Knights though is easily the closest we've come to the broken'ness of 2nd ed Harlequins! (ie: the *entire* game-meta has shifted to combat 1 specific army!)

The other big reason people hate-on Ward; he never owns up to his (perceived or real) mistakes. He just offers some fanboy'ish excuse about why some books turned out the way they did.
Kelly has at least admitted that SW's aren't his best work and if he could, there's changes he would go back and make.

Dark Scipio wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:As much as a few people rag on Kelly for SW's suppossedly being this unbeatable 'uber force... HE didn't kill an entire freaking game system!!! ("because THEY'RE DAEMONS!!1!11!!1!!!!")
Of course, Ward then went on to utterly kill off Codex: Daemons by introducing that farce of a GK codex... As a Daemon player, it's sad a day when the only game I can get at the local store is against the circle of 9 year olds who run the black reach set.
Honestly, the only people I've met who rave about Ward's books as being this blissful utopia of well-balanced rules are those who play BA's/GK's/SM's in some of their most abusive forms... (ironic that - no?!)

Considering it's been 8 months since the grey knight book came out, the fact that it's still so widely hated does imply it's pretty badly balanced externally. SW's have always been hated no matter what edition is being played, and it's cool to hate on Eldar because they're so specialised.
Grey Knights though is easily the closest we've come to the broken'ness of 2nd ed Harlequins! (ie: the *entire* game-meta has shifted to combat 1 specific army!)

The other big reason people hate-on Ward; he never owns up to his (perceived or real) mistakes. He just offers some fanboy'ish excuse about why some books turned out the way they did.
Kelly has at least admitted that SW's aren't his best work and if he could, there's changes he would go back and make.

The codex Deamons:
- Was always a bad idea. It didnt fit into the fluff well and was only there to generate extra money.
- Was never really good, so Ward hardly runied it.
- Is the very thing you expect rightfully of Codex Grey Knights, that they totally rock against Deamons.

Zweischneid wrote:

Sure. Start with Blood Angels. Possible lists would be, just off the top of my hat:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Just glancing through, why the hate for vendettas and the multiple leman russ varients?

Config2 wrote:Nothing worth quoting

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well if you took all the unnecessary elements out of the ig codex youd be stuck with like 6 units.

The russes give varients. Which no one but me seem to take, since its not point efficient.

And id have liked to see the vulture instead of the vendetta, but the vendetta works just as well. It reminds me of the hind, rather then an apache.

Kanluwen

Config2 wrote:Nothing worth quoting

Congrats. You're the ten thousandth person to post that stupid jpeg. Guess what?

The Necron fluff now (and even BEFORE NOW) actually supported such a thing happening.

Get. Over. It.

Config2 wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I based the six on what i commonly see on the net. Ccs, meltavets, chimera, vendetta, hydra, manticore.

I see your point on the vulture. And while i respect your opinion, i feel the vendetta works just as well. The missiles were replaced with lascannons.

Thanks for answering my off topic post.

Kanluwen wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I based the six on what i commonly see on the net. Ccs, meltavets, chimera, vendetta, hydra, manticore.

If we base a Codex on "what we commonly see on the net", there's six units per book. Some have less.

I see your point on the vulture. And while i respect your opinion, i feel the vendetta works just as well. The missiles were replaced with lascannons.

Thanks for answering my off topic post.

Actually, the Vulture commonly had twin-linked Lascannons and a set of Multiple Rocket Pods as what came with it when it was full resin. Now though, it comes with MRPs and Hellstrike Missiles as 'standard' because that's what is in the Valkyrie kit.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote: Lots'o'text

Dark Scipio wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:As much as a few people rag on Kelly for SW's suppossedly being this unbeatable 'uber force... HE didn't kill an entire freaking game system!!! ("because THEY'RE DAEMONS!!1!11!!1!!!!")
Of course, Ward then went on to utterly kill off Codex: Daemons by introducing that farce of a GK codex... As a Daemon player, it's sad a day when the only game I can get at the local store is against the circle of 9 year olds who run the black reach set.
Honestly, the only people I've met who rave about Ward's books as being this blissful utopia of well-balanced rules are those who play BA's/GK's/SM's in some of their most abusive forms... (ironic that - no?!)

Considering it's been 8 months since the grey knight book came out, the fact that it's still so widely hated does imply it's pretty badly balanced externally. SW's have always been hated no matter what edition is being played, and it's cool to hate on Eldar because they're so specialised.
Grey Knights though is easily the closest we've come to the broken'ness of 2nd ed Harlequins! (ie: the *entire* game-meta has shifted to combat 1 specific army!)

The other big reason people hate-on Ward; he never owns up to his (perceived or real) mistakes. He just offers some fanboy'ish excuse about why some books turned out the way they did.
Kelly has at least admitted that SW's aren't his best work and if he could, there's changes he would go back and make.

The codex Deamons:
- Was always a bad idea. It didnt fit into the fluff well and was only there to generate extra money.
- Was never really good, so Ward hardly runied it.
- Is the very thing you expect rightfully of Codex Grey Knights, that they totally rock against Deamons.

timetowaste85 wrote:There is no cookie-cutter list for them, as it should be. Maybe if people thought for themselves and didn't run every list the Internet told them to, the game would improve tenfold. /rant

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The thing that angers me about ward is his disregard for past fluff.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The grey knights where just over the top and made no sense. They're IMMUNE to chaos, but need to use the sisters blood to not be corrupted.

A man staying in the warp, alive and uncorrupted.

xxmatt85 wrote:Haters gonna hate.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:There is no cookie-cutter list for them, as it should be. Maybe if people thought for themselves and didn't run every list the Internet told them to, the game would improve tenfold. /rant

Fatecrusher?

templarsandorks? wrote:new GK=

Zweischneid wrote:

templarsandorks? wrote:new GK=

IG =
SW =

TiB wrote:I just still don't understand why a multi-million dollar company like GW lets it's codices be written by one guy where other, much smaller companies would put an entire design team on there, followed by a good round of R&D.

Matt Ward is, in my opinion, a competent rules designer. But rules writing and fluff writing have nothing in common with each other apart from being comprised of the same alphabet.

If they'd just have a pool of designers to tackle the rules, mr. Ward among them, and have another team, for example Abnett and peers, handle the fluff things would be a lot better.

Hypocrisy, thy name is hater.

guiltl3ss wrote:So it sounds like the people who don't like accuse him of writing like a child and the people who do like him think he is very good. Interesting. As an English Major, I don't find his work terrible in the least. Certainly better written than adult-level novels and the like. Granted it's not amazing either. Very interesting to see both sides. Thanks for all the points, everyone. It's given me a great deal to think about.

nosferatu1001 wrote::Everyone wanting to be like the Ultramarines :

Never happened. Everyone looks up to them as an ideal force, because they most closely follow the Codex. You know, the book theyre supposed to adhere to and revere? Try reading the actual fluff, not someones badly misinterpreted garbage

"Necrons and Blood Angels teaming up "

No, they decided to fight a common foe, and if youd read the necron fluff (record, broken...) you would see how this could work.

"GK killing Sisters and painting their armour with their blood "

When GW dont respect and almost revere RT / 2nd ed, people complain. When they include a piece of fluff EXACTLY LIKE the GK original fluff, they get hated on.

Dark Scipio wrote:I really dont get the Necron/BA truce hate.

I just wont make sense to club eacht other to death while a foe waits to wipe out the victor.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Im sorry, but the grey knight codex says the gk are immune to choas. Not resistant, but immune. Big difference there. If you are immune there is no need to kill some sisters for there blood.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Im sorry, but the grey knight codex says the gk are immune to choas. Not resistant, but immune. Big difference there. If you are immune there is no need to kill some sisters for there blood.

And for the Dark eldar, space wolves, and tyranids ive never read those codexes, so i have no say. I focus on the imperial guard with some straying into space marines. I find the ig codex fluff fitting for the ig.

If matt ward wrote the next ig codex like he does the space marines it would be stories of, creed going to tzeeches maze and solving it in a minute, then marbo, who has been following creed jumps out and kills tzeech. The whole time krell and bastonne where sacrificing sister so there blood would lubercate the leman russes. The pdf tried to stop them but where wipe out to the man.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
How is the killing sisters like the original GK fluff though?

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, the Wolves have long been at odds with the Ecclesiarchy.

Kanluwen wrote:Biggest problem with Ward is that he can come up with concepts and themes, but just cannot either explain them well enough to whomever is writing the fluff pieces or write enough to explain them in a way he sees fit.

Zweischneid wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Biggest problem with Ward is that he can come up with concepts and themes, but just cannot either explain them well enough to whomever is writing the fluff pieces or write enough to explain them in a way he sees fit.

At least he comes up with concepts and themes. More than can be said about the other authors like Phil Kelly who seem to be flailing about blindly with random snippets that might have been intended to appeal to younger video-game audiences.

KplKeegan wrote:
Have you looked at Space Marines at all? Have you played the game Space Marine? Last time I checked, THQ didn't publish a 40K game exclusive to Dark Eldar. That aside, Space Marines are the key stone to selling to younger 'video-game' audiences moreso than any other race, just look at the Six Codex' they have.

I'm not a fan of Ward. If that automatically counts me as a 'Ward Hater' fine. But every book he writes it seems he bubble wraps the Imperium from certain future demise. I don't know what's more disappointing; Tigerius fighting the gestalt Hive Mind and living or the Void Dragon 'disappearing' from Mars.

Dark Scipio wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Im sorry, but the grey knight codex says the gk are immune to choas. Not resistant, but immune. Big difference there. If you are immune there is no need to kill some sisters for there blood.

Where does it say they are immune?

Remulus wrote:

Practically every other page...

Zweischneid wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:
Have you looked at Space Marines at all? Have you played the game Space Marine? Last time I checked, THQ didn't publish a 40K game exclusive to Dark Eldar. That aside, Space Marines are the key stone to selling to younger 'video-game' audiences moreso than any other race, just look at the Six Codex' they have.

I'm not a fan of Ward. If that automatically counts me as a 'Ward Hater' fine. But every book he writes it seems he bubble wraps the Imperium from certain future demise. I don't know what's more disappointing; Tigerius fighting the gestalt Hive Mind and living or the Void Dragon 'disappearing' from Mars.

1. I have not played the video-game Space Marine. Was it programmed by Mat Ward? What bearing does it have on this argument?

2. Ultramarines traditionally face off against Tyranids. I see no issue there. Perhaps it is you who wants to "bubble wrap" your Tyranids in infantile fantasies of indominability if you decry any and all infringment of their omnipotence? Tell you what "unbeatable/uncommunicative" Tyranids make for very, very, very, very boring campaign-play.

3. All that crappy "the C'Tan did it" was a travesty of a ret-con with the earlier Necron Codex that most certainly turned 40K up-side down in ways that were unwanted and unneeded. Be glad its gone and that Ward found a way to keep Necrons and C'Tan in the game and in the universe in ways that are not only infinitly more interesting, but, unlike the old Cron Codex, also more compatible and true to the original 40K fluff.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Okay, suppose they did need to annoint their armor with the blood of the sisters. Either, a they painted themselves with it in a way that would please khorne. Or b, they slaughtered the sisters just to dabble the blood on, resulting in senseless, needless slaughter that would please khorne. Either way, instead of sounding do at all means, its more of blood for the blood god.

And kan, the post about memes was written in the style of ward. Completely over the top, and made no sense.

KplKeegan wrote:

1. You say Phil Kelly is trying to appeal to younger video-game audiences when ignoring the fact the Matt Ward writes the Codicies for a 40K race that actually has several video games about them, so it's rather moot to try and argue that.

2. I didn't say unbeatable. Leap to conclusions please. Wow. I'm just saying Tigurius survivng the gestalt Hive Mind and living is about as credible and fancifal as Draigo carving a name into a Daemon Primarch.

3. As long as there are no direct threats to Terra or Mars, heaven forbid it, literally.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I have read the draigo fluff. It is completely over the top and makes no sense.

Draigo wrote:Don't forget Mephiston lol Drop a building on a blood angel and he becomes a monstah!

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:See the Deceiver is a literal god. It should be able to do crazy stuff.

Draigo is a genetically modified human, a mere mortal. He shouldn't be able to do any of the things he does in the warp.

I think it makes more sense if you stop looking at Draigo as an uncorruptible hero, and more as a delusional mortal plaything of the dark gods. Then it does make sense how he survives in the warp.

Draigo wrote:Ok I reread the fluff section and no where does it say theyre immune to chaos.

Hornifex wrote:I prefer Mat Wards codexes than Mr Cruds, I miss the old tyranids.

Redbeard wrote:Anyone who thinks that the Grey Knight rules are reasonable needs to reevaluate what should be the marquee matchup from the book.

A competent daemon player with the same number of points as a competent grey knight player is at such a significant disadvantage that playing the game is largely a waste of time. I've played daemons since the book came out, and have won tournaments with them, and yet, I have been unable to get a single win against the new grey knights. It's just ridiculous.

This should be an epic battle. Instead, the grey knights have so many extra advantages against daemons that it's just a slaughter. And while Grey Knights should be able to fight daemons in the fluff, as a game, both players should be on somewhat even footing or it's not worth playing.

guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Riddick40k wrote:Simple enough... A game designer should never pick favorites!!! EVER!!! Wards problem is the fact that he thinks space marines are the best so they MUST be the best, while all the other armies fail in comparison which means they should be inferior game wise as well...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Brother Coa - the clue is that they talk about their PSYCHIC presence being anathema, so context says the immunity to corruption is mentally.

Zweischneid wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Simple enough... A game designer should never pick favorites!!! EVER!!! Wards problem is the fact that he thinks space marines are the best so they MUST be the best, while all the other armies fail in comparison which means they should be inferior game wise as well...

Why than, is the most unbalanced, badly written, unabashedly fanboi-Marine Codex full of oddly overpowered, special snowflake rule (4 HQ anyone?) still Phil Kelly's Space Wolf Codex by a wide, wide margin?

Luke_Prowler wrote:Probably because Space Wolves was writen ON TOP of Codex Space Marines. They'd be no where near as annoying as they are now without razorbacks and ++3 storm shields

Zweischneid wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Probably because Space Wolves was writen ON TOP of Codex Space Marines. They'd be no where near as annoying as they are now without razorbacks and ++3 storm shields

Unlikely. Lead time to develop a Codex is more than a year. So Kelly was working on it before Space Marines was published. Besides, Storm Shields aint 1/10th of the problem compared to JoTWWW-character sniping (still the best proof that Kelly doesn't even know the fething core rules apparently), fanboish idiocy like 4HQ, horrid internal balance (Long Fangs, Grey Hunters vs. Blood Claws), Wound allocation abuse Cavalry (again, guy seems totally ignorant of even the most basic 40K rules) and, worst of all, the fluff travesty that are womanizing Space Marines, Thunderhawk-nappers for the heck of it, Wolf Cavalry, Wolf-raised Mowgli-Marines, Sister-slaugherers (without even trying to give a decent reason) to name just a few.

Vaktathi wrote:'m not a fan of the SW book by any means, but much of what you're complaining about there existed in previous SW books (more than 1 HQ, fighting sisters, womanizing drunk space marines, etc).

Vaktathi wrote:
And yeah, kelly was probably working on it before C:SM was published, but considering that C:SM was probably finished summer 2008 in house and C:SW was released in late 2009, and that books generally are about 2 years between start of dev work and release, the C:SM rules were probably mostly codified if not completely finished by the time the SW project really got rolling.

Vaktathi wrote:
You'll also notice that Ward was not immune from creating his own iterations of many of these things (how often do you see purgation squads instead of psyrifleman? Paladins are far and away more abuseable as a wound-allocation gaming unit than TWC's, etc).

Zweischneid wrote:
As do many complaints leveled at Ward (Mephiston) pre-date his work on the book. But some things like Wolf-raised Mowgli-Marines, Thunderhawk-napping for the fun of it (can you imagine what would have happened to 3rd or 4th edition Neophyte-Marines that stole a Thunderhawk to go "cruising"?), He-Man-style Battlecat.. erm Thunderwolf riders, etc.. are all Kelly's own. And Space Marines WERE unable to engage in sexual activity until Space Wolves 5th (Slannesh-mutation excepted perhaps).

Sure. But the argument voiced above was that Space Wolves was purposefully written to address popular options that appeared in the meta-game AFTER the publication of Codex Space Marines. If 3++ Thundershields and/or Vulcan among others were undercosted, this wouldn't be obvious to the designers until after the Codex Space Marines was out and the meta-game began to move.

The idea that Kelly wrote the Space Wolves Codex purposefully broken to address the grievances of the net-whiner community remains ludicrous.

Vaktathi wrote:
I never said Ward was immune to any of these mistakes. Just that authors like Kelly or Cruddace are equally prone to them, and that singling out Ward for the net-Hate by selective readings that hype up his mistakes but endlessly "excuse" those very same faults in the work of Kelly and Cruddace with far fetched fantasies is simply hypocrisy and/or self-delusion of the highest order.

Vaktathi wrote:
There's a reason Ward gets so much hate over other authors. It didn't materialize out of nowhere. No other author in GW's history has managed to create the same kind of angst and butthurt nerd rage, and there's a reason for that. More than any other author, he writes like an internet fan-boy, a Michael Bay of codex authors. Others have their issues yes, very definitely so, and Ward has his good moments, but there's a reason he's so divisive and seen in such a poor light in so many circles.

Zweischneid wrote:
See. That's where you go wrong, even as the arguments fail you.

There is no objectively verifable reason Ward gets this sort of hate of Ward over other authors.

Any claim ever brought forward against him has been found in equal quality, quantity and severity in the other books of current and past Codex authors.

Kelly's incompetent, bland, expositionary and blatantly fanboi-pandering writing style being the most poignant example in this case.

All the "Ward-hate" is, is a convergence of generic anti-Marine bias of jaded, cynical gronards and arm-chair game designers who failed to move on in time, combined with a self-amplifying dynamic of bitter-jaded internet-bashing which in turn becomes the basis of most people's opinion instead of the actual, objective comparison of the books.

Every single "Mat-Ward-Hater" I have ever met has been a more or less disgruntled, anti-GW whiner from the start who blamed "the company" for the (inevitable) fading of that fragile unencumberedmess of his(mostly his, not her) unspoiled, exhuberant childhood-immersions with exaggerated sci-fi cowboys and indians.

Ward-Hate is a conduit for the inability of this overmature segment of the GW-customer base to preserve their rosy-tinted nostalgia of glory days that never were.

They find it easier to blame an internet-scape goat rather than face their own stagnation in their hobby-time. If it wasn't for Ward, they would have found another fall guy to pick on in order to prop up their self-deluded, elitist conception of their involvement in the hobby as being somehow superiour to the parts they see as (used derogatory) "catering to the kids".

But the unbiased approach to the 5th Edition books reveals their Ward-hate to be ultimately unbased in any tangible, objective or replicable sense

Vaktathi wrote:
There are many reasons already stated. While other designers make occaisonal mistakes and derpy fluff, Ward consistently writes fluff that irritates people.

Vaktathi wrote:
Not so. For Phil Kelly, aside from Codex: Space Wolves, how often do you see people complaining about his fluff? Rarely. Likewise Cruddace, aside from a couple things in the Tyranid book, how much complaining about fluff did you see in his works, especially Codex: Imperial Guard? Very little.

Vaktathi wrote:
Kelly's fluff certainly doesn't consistently generate the same angst that Ward's does. He's got one book where his fluff was derpy, in a book that consistently had had derpy fluff since 2nd edition as a sub-faction where derpy fluff is the rule this edition.

Vaktathi wrote:
And you base this on...?

Vaktathi wrote:
Lets be real here, if, as you are arguing, other authors are just as guilty of the same issues, why on earth should this sentiment be so focused on one author unless there's something else to it?

Vaktathi wrote:
There's a difference between "nostalgia for glory days that never were" and 'this doesn't really resemble anything I've read before'.

Vaktathi wrote:
It's one thing to find and complain about every single fault in every single thing someone has written and complain how it doesn't match every single thing from 2E/RT. It's another when it's written like like bad internet fanfic.

To put it in perspective:

A single dude holding off hordes of enemies with a machine gun in desperate battle can make for a cool visual/story. When it gets to the point where he just holds down the trigger and sways back and forth and everything just drops dead immediately, it becomes stupid. That's the kind of thing we run into with Ward's fiction.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:All stories of single characters or heroes taking on the might of legions are ridiculous. You cite Maugan Ra, but what about Calgar holding an entire pass against an Ork horde for an entire day, Tigerius owning the Hive Mind, the overused Draigo slaying Mortarion... etc?

Every codex has got at least one ridiculous hero or something which just wouldn't work, no matter how hard you try to believe it. Why not just go all the way in this train of thought and say: "the emperor is OP in fluff and should be dead"?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:All stories of single characters or heroes taking on the might of legions are ridiculous. You cite Maugan Ra, but what about Calgar holding an entire pass against an Ork horde for an entire day, Tigerius owning the Hive Mind, the overused Draigo slaying Mortarion... etc?

Every codex has got at least one ridiculous hero or something which just wouldn't work, no matter how hard you try to believe it. Why not just go all the way in this train of thought and say: "the emperor is OP in fluff and should be dead"?

And finally, how is it "ridiculous" that Draigo, the greatest of the Grey Knights, whose very being is anathema to daemons, beat Mortarion, a daemon Primarch, after Morty just slaughtered the ex-greatest Grey Knight?

Marine_With_Heart wrote:When it comes to Matt Ward Im neutral, where does that leave me in all of this?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The draws being codex space marine, which aside from the every space marine ever wants to be an ultramarine, isnt half bad.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:The draws being codex space marine, which aside from the every space marine ever wants to be an ultramarine, isnt half bad.

Especially considering that isn't actually what it says...

Zweischneid wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
There's a reason Ward gets so much hate over other authors. It didn't materialize out of nowhere. No other author in GW's history has managed to create the same kind of angst and butthurt nerd rage, and there's a reason for that. More than any other author, he writes like an internet fan-boy, a Michael Bay of codex authors. Others have their issues yes, very definitely so, and Ward has his good moments, but there's a reason he's so divisive and seen in such a poor light in so many circles.

See. That's where you go wrong, even as the arguments fail you.

There is no objectively verifable reason Ward gets this sort of hate of Ward over other authors. Any claim ever brought forward against him has been found in equal quality, quantity and severity in the other books of current and past Codex authors. Usually their incompetence far, far outstrips even the most remote claims laid at Ward's feet. Kelly's incompetent, bland, expositionary and blatantly fanboi-pandering writing style being the most poignant example in this case.

All the "Ward-hate" is, is a convergence of generic anti-Marine bias of jaded, cynical gronards and arm-chair game designers who failed to move on in time, combined with a self-amplifying dynamic of bitter-jaded internet-bashing which in turn becomes the basis of most people's opinion instead of the actual, objective comparison of the books.

Every single "Mat-Ward-Hater" I have ever met has been a more or less disgruntled, anti-GW whiner from the start who blamed "the company" for the (inevitable) fading of that fragile unencumberedmess of his(mostly his, not her) unspoiled, exhuberant childhood-immersions with exaggerated sci-fi cowboys and indians. Ward-Hate is a conduit for the inability of this overmature segment of the GW-customer base to preserve their rosy-tinted nostalgia of glory days that never were. They find it easier to blame an internet-scape goat rather than face their own stagnation in their hobby-time. If it wasn't for Ward, they would have found another fall guy to pick on in order to prop up their self-deluded, elitist conception of their involvement in the hobby as being somehow superiour to the parts they see as (used derogatory) "catering to the kids".

But the unbiased approach to the 5th Edition books reveals their Ward-hate to be ultimately unbased in any tangible, objective or replicable sense. There is no reason for the "Ward-hate" because the "hate" came first and it's only then that it attached to "Ward".

Zweischneid wrote: As shown above frequently, this divison into "occassionally" (not-Ward) and "consistently (Ward) is not matched by actual readings of the books. If anything, Cruddace and Kelly feth it up with far greater consistency than Ward ever did.

Zweischneid wrote: The fluff in Dark Eldar is just as bad, if not worse than Space Wolves. Eldar 4th pretty much broke 4th Edition. IG? Do a Forum search on "Leafblower". And "a couple things in the Tyranid book". Seriously, if you don't see how your own pre-bias to corner Ward is playing tricks on you, there is little more to say.

Zweischneid wrote: Kelly's fluff is consistently just as bad, if not worse. His writing is simplistic on a literary level below that of Ward with mostly ex-machina, expositionary statements thrown at the reader ("Vect is the most intelligent DE!" "Dark Eldar are a depraved race!" "Vect didn't feel appreciated in his childhood!", etc..) But that is just the point. Kelly doesn't get the same hate despite producing worse fluff with great consistency BECAUSE the Ward hate is not grounded in objective readings of the different authors.

Zweischneid wrote: What do you base your judgements of what is "an occassional, excusable mistake" and a "consistent" mistake on?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Im failing to see how leafblower ig compares to the shenagains in cgk. Leafblower didnt shelf a whole army.

Armless Failure wrote:I will stick with Ward as he is the subject of this thread, but note the others are little better.
1) The Ultramarines went from being a chapter that had it's foibles and mistakes to COMPLETE MARY-SUES. Ask anyone who plays a chapter not decended from rowboat girlyman's seed about what they think of this "spiritual liege" bovine fecal matter.

And he couldn't even leave it out of the BA codex, he has even the BA worshiping the smurfs following the Codex Astartes. And that bit of fluff doesn't even remotely fit the crunch, since half the codex is assault squads of varying flavors. Any mention of any other chapter is BRUTALLY DISRGUARDED. The basic marine codex covers all of the chapters that do no have specific codecies, where as we instead get CODEX ULTRAMARINES. Every single line of fluff in that codex goes above and beyond the normal "hey here's your army being awesome". It's pedantic wish fulfillment devoid of any merit even as just fluff to fill pages, the book would have been better if every line of fluff was instead blank.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Im failing to see how leafblower ig compares to the shenagains in cgk. Leafblower didnt shelf a whole army.

sillyhatface wrote:And gues what army is considered the "best" in 40k? Yes GK. IMO its a telling sign.

Bongo_clive wrote:Just out of interest, has anyone actually written to GW giving their opinion of Ward?

Imagine if all the people who dislike his work wrote to GW instead of writing on forums! Job done!

Zweischneid wrote:Well. I spent a small fortune on Space Marines, Blood Angels and now Necrons (an army that never before interested me but has now grabbed my full attention). I will also purchase a few Dreadknights, if only for Apoc problably.

After many years of abscence and indifference to the hobby due to the poor and uninspired writers that dominated 3rd and 4th Edition, Ward's outstanding, innovative and bold work has truly rekindled my fire for 40K. And not only mine, but at the very least those of my entire old "gaming group" that hadn't touched a mini by and large since Necromunda was all the rage.

Thank you Mr. Ward for bringing imagination, fun and life back to 40K.

Thank you GW for the fantastic revival you've made possible by brining Mr. Ward on board.

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Yours, Z.

[edit]
P.S.

Keep Kelly away doing piraty-things. It's the best place for him. It really is.

Armless Failure wrote:Obvious Troll is Obvious

Armless Failure wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Well. I spent a small fortune on Space Marines, Blood Angels and now Necrons (an army that never before interested me but has now grabbed my full attention). I will also purchase a few Dreadknights, if only for Apoc problably.

After many years of abscence and indifference to the hobby due to the poor and uninspired writers that dominated 3rd and 4th Edition, Ward's outstanding, innovative and bold work has truly rekindled my fire for 40K. And not only mine, but at the very least those of my entire old "gaming group" that hadn't touched a mini by and large since Necromunda was all the rage.

Thank you Mr. Ward for bringing imagination, fun and life back to 40K.

Thank you GW for the fantastic revival you've made possible by brining Mr. Ward on board.

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Yours, Z.

[edit]
P.S.

Keep Kelly away doing piraty-things. It's the best place for him. It really is.

Obvious Troll is Obvious

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sillyhatface wrote:And gues what army is considered the "best" in 40k? Yes GK. IMO its a telling sign.

You'd have a point if it wasn't for the fact that there's no universally accepted "best" army. Space Wolves and the Imperial Guard are every bit as powerful as the Grey Knights, but that doesn't fit in in your theory, so let's just ignore it, shall we? While we're at it, let's ignore the fact that the "daemon-invaliditating army" requires a list with at least 20 Interceptors to actually work decently, which leaves the Grey Knight list pretty behind against other armies. It's list tailoring, hardly anything new.

Zweischneid wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:Obvious Troll is Obvious

So showing support for the hobby you love and acknowledging the great fun you had and have with 40K is trolling these days? And attempts to rally net-sheep into blackmailing GW is laudable activity to be pursued on these boards?

Poor Dakka... how hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn!

Dark Scipio wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Well. I spent a small fortune on Space Marines, Blood Angels and now Necrons (an army that never before interested me but has now grabbed my full attention). I will also purchase a few Dreadknights, if only for Apoc problably.

After many years of abscence and indifference to the hobby due to the poor and uninspired writers that dominated 3rd and 4th Edition, Ward's outstanding, innovative and bold work has truly rekindled my fire for 40K. And not only mine, but at the very least those of my entire old "gaming group" that hadn't touched a mini by and large since Necromunda was all the rage.

Thank you Mr. Ward for bringing imagination, fun and life back to 40K.

Thank you GW for the fantastic revival you've made possible by brining Mr. Ward on board.

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Yours, Z.

[edit]
P.S.

Keep Kelly away doing piraty-things. It's the best place for him. It really is.

Obvious Troll is Obvious

Obvious Troll is Obvious, yourself.

Self reflection: 0 ?

As long as Ward remains a truly integral part of the 40K line, be assured that you will continue to receive many hundreds of euro from me, month after month, year after year, and hereby pledge to not touch or buy the minis of any other game company.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Zweischneid, I'm going to tell you this in the nicest way I can, because honestly the way I want to say it would be be ungentlemanly and get me banned from the site.

For as long as I have been reading this topic you have spent it venting rage like a tantruming child, argueing with complaints about vague concepts with few examples and ad hominem attacks. People have given plenty of examples and counter arguments against your position and you continue to ignore them to regurgitate the same points by the next page. You have called everyone who has disagreed with you a fanboy and yet you sound much more like a fanboy than anyone else here. I politely ask that, since you refuse to take this as an actual debate rather than your personal Kelly-hate vent, that you simply stop posting here, both for your own sake and for everyone else on topic.

Don't bother responding to this. I have ignored you weeks ago and even if I haven't I doubt it would be anything dignified.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
There's a reason Ward gets so much hate over other authors. It didn't materialize out of nowhere. No other author in GW's history has managed to create the same kind of angst and butthurt nerd rage, and there's a reason for that. More than any other author, he writes like an internet fan-boy, a Michael Bay of codex authors. Others have their issues yes, very definitely so, and Ward has his good moments, but there's a reason he's so divisive and seen in such a poor light in so many circles.

See. That's where you go wrong, even as the arguments fail you.

There is no objectively verifable reason Ward gets this sort of hate of Ward over other authors. Any claim ever brought forward against him has been found in equal quality, quantity and severity in the other books of current and past Codex authors. Usually their incompetence far, far outstrips even the most remote claims laid at Ward's feet. Kelly's incompetent, bland, expositionary and blatantly fanboi-pandering writing style being the most poignant example in this case.

All the "Ward-hate" is, is a convergence of generic anti-Marine bias of jaded, cynical gronards and arm-chair game designers who failed to move on in time, combined with a self-amplifying dynamic of bitter-jaded internet-bashing which in turn becomes the basis of most people's opinion instead of the actual, objective comparison of the books.

Every single "Mat-Ward-Hater" I have ever met has been a more or less disgruntled, anti-GW whiner from the start who blamed "the company" for the (inevitable) fading of that fragile unencumberedmess of his(mostly his, not her) unspoiled, exhuberant childhood-immersions with exaggerated sci-fi cowboys and indians. Ward-Hate is a conduit for the inability of this overmature segment of the GW-customer base to preserve their rosy-tinted nostalgia of glory days that never were. They find it easier to blame an internet-scape goat rather than face their own stagnation in their hobby-time. If it wasn't for Ward, they would have found another fall guy to pick on in order to prop up their self-deluded, elitist conception of their involvement in the hobby as being somehow superiour to the parts they see as (used derogatory) "catering to the kids".

But the unbiased approach to the 5th Edition books reveals their Ward-hate to be ultimately unbased in any tangible, objective or replicable sense. There is no reason for the "Ward-hate" because the "hate" came first and it's only then that it attached to "Ward".

I have to vehemently disagree. No other author has made a codex that can 100% shut down another codex before the game starts, like GK do to daemons. This is the biggest reason for my ire. Ward's fluff can suck, but doesn't affect gameplay. Ruining a full codex means he shouldn't have a job. Supporting his actions after this is a serious insult to players who had to shelve their armies. And don't compare this to Cruddace's actions on tyranids. Those can still be played. Ward ruined 40k daemons. That is the biggest thing he should be hated for. His fluff is just a joke-shouldn't cause as much hate as it does.

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

pretre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

pretre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

daveNYC wrote:I'm assuming he meant that everyone has 'tweaked' lists on hand, as opposed to an 'all-comers' or a pile of specificly designed anti-X lists. So if you're DE, you might have a basic list, but have a variant that removes Scourges with Haywire when going up against Tyranids. And tweaking a GK list to stomp and romp on daemons would be pretty easy.

daveNYC wrote: There's some units that just become a waste against certain armies.

Vaktathi wrote:

guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Primarily because he tends to write fluff in a manner that you'd expect of a middle-school kids bad internet fanfic, often contradictory to previously established fluff. All too often it reads like something written by a fanboy, not a professional games designer. Now, granted, 40k has always had an element of sillyness and "larger than life" to it, but there's a limit before stuff starts to sound silly even for 40k.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:He has little to no regard for established fluff (not necessarily a bad thing, unless it's a fundamental alteration of the setting history as a whole) ,

no grasp of continuity ("billlions of years ago, the Necrons went to sleep for sixty million years, and so are waking up now!" ),

reason ("Necron Lords act solely out of a desire for increased personal power, so their motives are impossible to figure out!" ), or scale (the number of necrons and tombworlds implied to exist radically shifting throughout the codex), and frequently uses words incorrectly or in extremely awkward ways.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
or scale (the number of necrons and tombworlds implied to exist radically shifting throughout the codex), and frequently uses words incorrectly or in extremely awkward ways.

Oaka wrote:But it detracts from a sense of numbers in the galaxy. Each Space Marine chapter has 1000 bodies. Billions upon Billions of Necrons doesn't give much hope to humanity.

Pen≥Sword wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sillyhatface wrote:And gues what army is considered the "best" in 40k? Yes GK. IMO its a telling sign.

You'd have a point if it wasn't for the fact that there's no universally accepted "best" army. Space Wolves and the Imperial Guard are every bit as powerful as the Grey Knights, but that doesn't fit in in your theory, so let's just ignore it, shall we? While we're at it, let's ignore the fact that the "daemon-invaliditating army" requires a list with at least 20 Interceptors to actually work decently, which leaves the Grey Knight list pretty behind against other armies. It's list tailoring, hardly anything new.

Except regular PAGK get warpquake too. So there's that.

Oaka wrote: Hence, Matt Ward broke the fluff.

azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

pretre wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

Oh, good call, because no other codex (including the last Cron one) has ever had an extensive number of FAQ questions and answers because their book was unclear.

Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

Draigo wrote:

Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

Huh? Your mad they are as strong as the Imperium's super soldiers? really?

Oaka wrote:There is quite a large inventory of debatable questions from this codex where even the winning side admits it needs to be FAQed.

Oaka wrote:The regular Necrontyr citizen, who took your fast food order and got your sand burger wrong even though you asked for no pickles three times? Yeah, I'm mad.

Oaka wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Oaka wrote:I guess I just don't like the fact that an entire civilization arises that is as populated as Humanity, but they all have stats equivalent to a Space Marine?

Huh? Your mad they are as strong as the Imperium's super soldiers? really?

The regular Necrontyr citizen, who took your fast food order and got your sand burger wrong even though you asked for no pickles three times? Yeah, I'm mad.

pretre wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:He has little to no regard for established fluff (not necessarily a bad thing, unless it's a fundamental alteration of the setting history as a whole) ,

You know Damnos and the 5th Ed Rulebook both started the path to this codex before Ward got to it, right? This whole change was well telegraphed.

no grasp of continuity ("billlions of years ago, the Necrons went to sleep for sixty million years, and so are waking up now!" ),

Umm. Citation needed. I see a lot of 'Aeons ago' but no Billions / millions errors. Oh I get it, you're going by the strict meaning of Aeon, apparently used in Astronomy. I think he's using it in the literary sense.

1. an immeasurably long period of time; age
2. (Astronomy) a period of one thousand million years

reason ("Necron Lords act solely out of a desire for increased personal power, so their motives are impossible to figure out!" ), or scale (the number of necrons and tombworlds implied to exist radically shifting throughout the codex), and frequently uses words incorrectly or in extremely awkward ways.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Examples?

In these circumstances, folks are always making claims but rarely produce textual proof. It makes it awkward to discuss.

Oaka wrote:But it detracts from a sense of numbers in the galaxy. Each Space Marine chapter has 1000 bodies. Billions upon Billions of Necrons doesn't give much hope to humanity. Hence, Matt Ward broke the fluff.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Oaka wrote:But it detracts from a sense of numbers in the galaxy. Each Space Marine chapter has 1000 bodies. Billions upon Billions of Necrons doesn't give much hope to humanity. Hence, Matt Ward broke the fluff.

Space Marines number less that one million in all, making them the single smallest and least militarily relevant faction in the entire fluff save for the Traitor Marines. Even the Tau have a stronger military, numbering in the hundreds of millions, while each Craftworld boasts a trillion or so residents, Commoragh has an estimated volume equal to a two kilometer disk with a radius of Pluto's average orbit* and would have around ten trillion residents if its population density was so much as one percent of Alaska's, and the Guard numbers in the tens of trillions of infantry, not to mention the billions upon billions of tanks. To say nothing of the Adeptus Mechanicus, which fields the equivalent of non-power armored Space Marines in the tens of thousands in any given theater, alongside war engines that pack more firepower than an entire chapter, or the Imperial Navy, which boasts millions of warships that pack enough firepower to level continents with sustained bombardment, and countless smaller vessels. Billions of Necrons makes them much less of a threat than they previously seemed, if anything.

*Hilarious extrapolation of the "compares to the largest of Imperial hives as a mountain does to a mound of termites" phrase, done by comparing a termite mound to mount everest, then multiplying a rough figure for the volume of the hive on Terra by the result.

daveNYC wrote:

pretre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

I'm assuming he meant that everyone has 'tweaked' lists on hand, as opposed to an 'all-comers' or a pile of specificly designed anti-X lists. So if you're DE, you might have a basic list, but have a variant that removes Scourges with Haywire when going up against Tyranids. And tweaking a GK list to stomp and romp on daemons would be pretty easy.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

pretre wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote: everyone list tailors to some extent at the local store by having multiple lists at hand!)

Seriously? I have not experienced that before. That's a pretty lame local store if everyone tailors.

I have multiple lists for different point levels and trying out different combos, but that's about it and they are all take all comers.

Your problem would probably be the same no matter what army you played if people are going to tailor. :(

I'm assuming he meant that everyone has 'tweaked' lists on hand, as opposed to an 'all-comers' or a pile of specificly designed anti-X lists. So if you're DE, you might have a basic list, but have a variant that removes Scourges with Haywire when going up against Tyranids. And tweaking a GK list to stomp and romp on daemons would be pretty easy.

What's wrong with tweaked lists? I mean, perish the thought of a strategy and tactics game where you use real strategies and tactics...

I mean, the weaponry you'd use against Marines is going to be different than that which you use against a horde of Tyranids.

Armless Failure wrote:B) Every C:SM is getting more and more of a ultramarines propaganda book. There is nary a mention of the Salamanders Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Whitescars, ect. I realize that the Ultramarines are the go to guys, but can we expand out a little? There is no reason why every thing in the darn book has to be smurfs.
C) The Current UM have no weakness, vice, or inhibiting factor of any sort

pretre wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

Oh, good call, because no other codex (including the last Cron one) has ever had an extensive number of FAQ questions and answers because their book was unclear.

azazel the cat wrote:My dislike for Ward is due to the fact that he is an exceptionally sloppy writer when it comes to rules. Let's look at the Newcron codex:
.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The Void Dragon not being the Omnissiah? That didn't make sense in the timeline anyways.

In the intro paragraph on page six it sets the history at "billions of years before Man", and in the second paragraph of "THE GREAT SLEEP" on page seven "The Silent King's final command to his people was that they must sleep for sixty million years...".

Any time a number is given for something related to Necrons, it's a vague statement of effectively random size. The awkward phrasing and apparent inept use of a thesaurus that no doubt helped it along is too subtle a thing to really draw out solid examples, being an overall characteristic. Like I said, it's like something an unusually literate (literacy in this case referring to a basic grasp of grammar and spelling) child would write. It reminds me of the page or two of one of Goto's books I read once, both stylistically and in the fact that it's physically painful to read. I'm not even sure how that's possible, only that's it's truly an accomplishment in terrible writing.

pretre wrote:

Oaka wrote:The regular Necrontyr citizen, who took your fast food order and got your sand burger wrong even though you asked for no pickles three times? Yeah, I'm mad.

Who was put into a robot body by a star god? Yeah...

Exactly this. Necrons are to Necrontyr as the Space Marines are to Humanity.

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 16:17:55

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts
-Deepstriking Land Raiders
-Necrons allying with Blood Angels against Tyranids (Newer fluff explains this but still...)
-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed.
*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them.
*The Sanguinor, the ultimate Mary Sue who always miraculously appears to destroy the enemy when the Blood Angles are about to lose. Wins every single time no matter what it faces.
-Praising the Ultramarines to the point where Tigurus is as powerful if not even more powerful as the Emperor himself, Marneus Calgar can outsmart even Tzeench and where all other Space Marine Chapters with the exception of Raven Guard, Black Templars and Space Wolves think that the Ultramarines are the best of the best and revere them to the point of saccharine.
-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules.
-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

Failures with rules
-In Warhammer Fantasy Battle the rulebook for 6th edition Chaos Daemons was so broken that it almost destroyed the game. No player could hope to win them and their fluff was also altered severely.
-Grey Knights are so over powered that new players will find it extremely hard if not impossible to defeat them. They are a big challenge even to more experienced players, with their mass teleporting armies, +2 armors, Psycannon spam and special character. Armies using a lot of psykers or Daemons like the Eldar or Chaos Daemons will be in serious trouble with this army. Also destroyed their fluff.

Failures with fluff
-Over ten years of Grey Kinght fluff was thrown in the garbage bin as Ward got to work on them. He made it so they could turn to chaos, he made Kaldor Draigo a 10 foot-tall Jesus and made them kill innocent Sisters of Battle.
-Codex: Space Marines turned out to be a Codex: Ultramarines as Ward wrote it almost entirely from their perspective. According to him, all other marine chapters worship Roboute Guilliman as their "Spiritual Liege" and revere the Ultramarines more than anything else, seeking to be like them. He thinks that Ultramarines are perfect in every way. Basically it is like bad fanfic. He made the non-codex chapters like the Raven Guard and Space Wolves look bad and deranged and went to racist mode with the Salamanders. He insists that their skin is dark because of a genetic flaw instead of an intentional adaption in order to survive on the surface of Nocturne. He can't stand any other armies besides his own. All other SM books he writes are praising the Ultramarines even more.
-He almost retconned the Sisters of Battle out of the fluff in the main rulebook. He also had an effect on the huge orientation of armored units we have today.

Pros
-Lotr SBG was considered a good rulebook. It was one of his first works.
-Has more skill with writing rules than with writing fluff. For example, in C:BA he has created almost all units to be at least usable, unlike Robin Cruddace with his LRBT variants, for example.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 16:39:40

Post by: pretre

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

So much fail, I don't even know where to start.

Oh well. Great compilation, BBA!

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 16:44:19

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

pretre wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

So much fail, I don't even know where to start.

Oh well. Great compilation, BBA!

If you are trying to insult me at least point out the parts where you disagree with me. Otherwise move on.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 16:49:27

Post by: pretre

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

pretre wrote:So much fail, I don't even know where to start.

If you are trying to insult me at least point out the parts where you disagree with me. Otherwise move on.

I'll go ahead and skip it. Your 'points' have been rebutted a thousand times on these boards by actual textual quotes. It just isn't worth it.

Theoden wrote:What can men do against such reckless hate?

Reply by: Sasori - click to view full reply 

7637

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 16:50:39

Post by: Sasori

The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 16:55:45

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

Sasori wrote:The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

How is the Ultramarine fanboyism or changing the fluff entirely "just silly"?

Reply by: Sasori - click to view full reply 

7637

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 16:59:09

Post by: Sasori

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Sasori wrote:The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

How is the Ultramarine fanboyism or changing the fluff entirely "just silly"?

Because some of us Like the new fluff? I love the new Necron fluff. For me, it's much better.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:00:17

Post by: pretre

And because, you know, it is factually incorrect.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:01:31

Post by: Draigo

"Reginald get the silver spoons.. that metal man is here again and wants to make a deal." lol Whenever the new fluff is said I can't but help laugh at the collector guy. I think hes the one who can claim objectives cause hes that darn greedy. Otherwise I'm pretty indifferent to the fluff. lol

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:02:32

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

Sasori wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Sasori wrote:The only thing I will agree with, is 7th Edition Chaos Daemons, and the Draigo fluff.

Everything else in that list, just silly.

How is the Ultramarine fanboyism or changing the fluff entirely "just silly"?

Because some of us Like the new fluff? I love the new Necron fluff. For me, it's much better.

I guess these things are entirely based on opinion. I know three hardcore Necron players who hate the new fluff, since the race has lost a portion of it's grimdark spirit with the addition of sentient characters. I for one, do not like it entirely either.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:03:18

Post by: pretre

Goto Page 178 of the main rulebook and read about the necrons. At the start of 5th edition, they had already changed to the new fluff. Note not a single reference to C'Tan in the description of the race over 4 pages.

Also, see Fall of Damnos.

Matt Ward didn't change the Necron fluff. The main rulebook did.

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47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:06:37

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

pretre wrote:And because, you know, it is factually incorrect.

I checked my writing and could not figure out how it is wrong. I have all of the Codices which I mentioned, including those of Necrons, Space Marines, Blood Angels and Grey Knights. WHFB Army book for CD I do not have, but I know how terrible it was since I have friends playing that game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Goto Page 178 of the main rulebook and read about the necrons. At the start of 5th edition, they had already changed to the new fluff. Note not a single reference to C'Tan in the description of the race over 4 pages.

Also, see Fall of Damnos.

Matt Ward didn't change the Necron fluff. The main rulebook did.

I checked, and you are right. I will correct my list. However, he was also involved writing the main rulebook. But since it is too vague evidence whether he changed their fluff or not, it is better left aside.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:11:37

Post by: pretre

So, my point above about Necrons. Ward did not change their fluff.

Also, see the original Index Astartes for GK saying that no GK had fallen to chaos 'yet', indicating they could. That was years ago. Ward did not change their fluff.

And the whole 'almost retconned sob out of the book'. Where did you get that? SOB got more information in the Main rulebook than GK.

When you say clearly demonstrably false things, it is hard to take your arguments seriously.

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:23:43

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

pretre wrote:So, my point above about Necrons. Ward did not change their fluff.

Also, see the original Index Astartes for GK saying that no GK had fallen to chaos 'yet', indicating they could. That was years ago. Ward did not change their fluff.

And the whole 'almost retconned sob out of the book'. Where did you get that? SOB got more information in the Main rulebook than GK.

When you say clearly demonstrably false things, it is hard to take your arguments seriously.

I see. However it can also depend on how you decipher the word "yet". I always understood it as a clear sign they could never fall to Chaos, since they had fought for millenia already. I always thought it as a "The world can end" type of thing.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:24:17

Post by: pretre

Also, speaking of Index Astartes...

Codex Astartes - (Rick Priestly and Andy Chambers) echoes the IMPERIUMs preference for Ultramarine based descendents and how most chapters venerate Gulliman as their founding father and patron.

Warriors of Ultramar - (Graham McNeil) this continues the theme of Perfection with Ultramarines. Saying that they have the most perfect geneseed and the most secondary foundings, making them the most revered chapter.

Purge the Unclean - (Graham McNeil) Mentions that the GK go through great lengths to prevent corruption by daemons and 'thus far have proven to be effective'. Opening the door to GK falling from grace. Also in the same article, GK each carry blasphemous knowledge and have the greatest repository of blasphemous tomes in the Imperium. In fact, the information they use is so hazardous that they have killswitches on the servitors that maintain it so as to prevent daemonic possession.


Index Astartes was compiled in 2002, btw.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:26:06

Post by: Draigo

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

pretre wrote:So, my point above about Necrons. Ward did not change their fluff.

Also, see the original Index Astartes for GK saying that no GK had fallen to chaos 'yet', indicating they could. That was years ago. Ward did not change their fluff.

And the whole 'almost retconned sob out of the book'. Where did you get that? SOB got more information in the Main rulebook than GK.

When you say clearly demonstrably false things, it is hard to take your arguments seriously.

I see. However it can also depend on how you decipher the word "yet". I always understood it as a clear sign they could never fall to Chaos, since they had fought for millenia already. I always thought it as a "The world can end" type of thing.

They have dabbled into it a few times. One glaring example was Counter's story Hammer of Daemons. In that he showed a lot of flaws in the gk and how chaos could corrupt a gk.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:26:40

Post by: pretre

Really, the problem with Ward hate is that the haters do not have a solid grasp of the history of fluff, so attribute everything they don't like about the fluff to him. This is especially problematic when those elements predate his work.

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:28:58

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

pretre wrote:Also, speaking of Index Astartes...

Codex Astartes - (Rick Priestly and Andy Chambers) echoes the IMPERIUMs preference for Ultramarine based descendents and how most chapters venerate Gulliman as their founding father and patron.

Warriors of Ultramar - (Graham McNeil) this continues the theme of Perfection with Ultramarines. Saying that they have the most perfect geneseed and the most secondary foundings, making them the most revered chapter.

Purge the Unclean - (Graham McNeil) Mentions that the GK go through great lengths to prevent corruption by daemons and 'thus far have proven to be effective'. Opening the door to GK falling from grace. Also in the same article, GK each carry blasphemous knowledge and have the greatest repository of blasphemous tomes in the Imperium. In fact, the information they use is so hazardous that they have killswitches on the servitors that maintain it so as to prevent daemonic possession.


Index Astartes was compiled in 2002, btw.

I understand and know that they were said to be the most noble and pure chapter there is. However, that is no excusion of making 70% of C: SM venerate them as it does. 4th ed Codex mentioned them and told of their greatness, but not in the way 5th edition one does. They have a perfect geneseed? Good. But there is no reason to push them down from everyone's throats like Ward does. He mentions them in about every Codex he writes.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:30:50

Post by: Draigo

Well I think that has to do with the lack of exposure of some groups. I mean aside from cameos the gk as far as I know only have that 3 book series about them. As we know the codex fluff makes the armies seem invincible so a majority only know the codexes. So to this point the majority of the mass have recieved the "propoganda." I'm not 100 for sure on this but it could be an explanation. I know at first some ofthe new fluff kinda was jarring to me so I can't be too critical.

Reply by: Experiment 626 - click to view full reply 

51383

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:34:04

Post by: Experiment 626

Eldar ironically have it pretty good against the GK mess... Their runes of warding can pretty much negate every single psychic power. Doom & fortune still work well enough and the warlock powers are unblockable throug hany means. (other than killing the warlock!)

No, the books that got utterly fethed by GK's are;
- Daemons. Litterly no point in playing the game unless you're running a fateweaver build. Even then, outside of tournaments the GK players can very easily decide to quake-shunt the entire table and auto-win the game...
All the big problems daemons suffer from are simply exploited by the new GK's as they have the game's best mech, best anti-horde, best wound allocation shinanigans AND all their special anti-daemon rules to top things off!

- Tyranids. On par with daemons ironically... Pointy-death-sticks everywhere means the multi-wound beasties are even more crap, grenades that specifically counter the 'nids main strength (stupid psychos!) army-wide S5 shooting, easy to spam rending, clensing flame BS.

- Orks. Don't have it as bad as the other two, but clensing flame on it's own can win the game for the shiny marines, especialy against foot hordes! Psyfleman dreads can also take-out whole squads of killa kans in a single phase on a good day.


Three freaking armies that are litterly b-slapped by a single codex! Okay, it's not quite as bad as the fantasy daemons feth-up, but still, pretty sad when you're looking at your collection of hundreds of dollars knowing you can't take them to tournament anymore because the scene is flooded by 'shiny special marines'

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:36:10

Post by: pretre

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I understand and know that they were said to be the most noble and pure chapter there is. However, that is no excusion of making 70% of C: SM venerate them as it does. 4th ed Codex mentioned them and told of their greatness, but not in the way 5th edition one does. They have a perfect geneseed? Good. But there is no reason to push them down from everyone's throats like Ward does. He mentions them in about every Codex he writes.

You do realize that Ultras and successors make up >50% of foundings, right? This is all well-established before Ward even started working at GW. Heck, Codex: Space Marines in 2nd Edition was called ... wait for it... Codex: Ultramarines.

Also, where's that reference to Ultras in C:BA?

Sure he references them in C:SM and C:Newcrons. Heck, the biggest re-intro for Newcrons was a book about them fighting Ultras. Are we calling Cruddace a Ultra fanboy because he mentions Macraage in C: Tyranids?

Get past the blind hate and think critically.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 17:43:52

Post by: Draigo

Experiment 626 wrote:Eldar ironically have it pretty good against the GK mess... Their runes of warding can pretty much negate every single psychic power. Doom & fortune still work well enough and the warlock powers are unblockable throug hany means. (other than killing the warlock!)

No, the books that got utterly fethed by GK's are;
- Daemons. Litterly no point in playing the game unless you're running a fateweaver build. Even then, outside of tournaments the GK players can very easily decide to quake-shunt the entire table and auto-win the game...
All the big problems daemons suffer from are simply exploited by the new GK's as they have the game's best mech, best anti-horde, best wound allocation shinanigans AND all their special anti-daemon rules to top things off!

- Tyranids. On par with daemons ironically... Pointy-death-sticks everywhere means the multi-wound beasties are even more crap, grenades that specifically counter the 'nids main strength (stupid psychos!) army-wide S5 shooting, easy to spam rending, clensing flame BS.

- Orks. Don't have it as bad as the other two, but clensing flame on it's own can win the game for the shiny marines, especialy against foot hordes! Psyfleman dreads can also take-out whole squads of killa kans in a single phase on a good day.


Three freaking armies that are litterly b-slapped by a single codex! Okay, it's not quite as bad as the fantasy daemons feth-up, but still, pretty sad when you're looking at your collection of hundreds of dollars knowing you can't take them to tournament anymore because the scene is flooded by 'shiny special marines'

Most tourney lists for GK don't quake.. Most common are purifier or coteaz neither have quake. Most outside of the dreads dont use psy bolt since its too expensive.

Everything kills nids. Did you forget mechvets, dl de spam, joww, and such? Many sw rules specically target mc.

Again did you forget splinter racks, mechvet, long fangs, ig tank spam?

Seems to me a bandwagoner on the hate. You forget a squad of lootas can destroy purifiers with one round of shooting or one defrolla squish.. most are only 5 models strong. Try again

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 18:07:25

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

pretre wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I understand and know that they were said to be the most noble and pure chapter there is. However, that is no excusion of making 70% of C: SM venerate them as it does. 4th ed Codex mentioned them and told of their greatness, but not in the way 5th edition one does. They have a perfect geneseed? Good. But there is no reason to push them down from everyone's throats like Ward does. He mentions them in about every Codex he writes.

You do realize that Ultras and successors make up >50% of foundings, right? This is all well-established before Ward even started working at GW. Heck, Codex: Space Marines in 2nd Edition was called ... wait for it... Codex: Ultramarines.

Also, where's that reference to Ultras in C:BA?

Sure he references them in C:SM and C:Newcrons. Heck, the biggest re-intro for Newcrons was a book about them fighting Ultras. Are we calling Cruddace a Ultra fanboy because he mentions Macraage in C: Tyranids?

Get past the blind hate and think critically.

In Codex BA, he praises his Ultramarines on page 10, titled The Ordering of the Host. He tells about Guilliman's excellent book and about how the BA were the first chapter to adopt it's teachings.

I also know they were the first Chapter GW made, but those days are far behind. There are tons of other chapters which could be described in more detail in C: SM. Back in 4th ed, they were present, but so were other chapters. It was a very versatile Codex. Ward just gues on about the Ultramarines, and barely tells about other chapters. Ward's history section is basically just how Ultramarines founded the Imperium and how they fought with Imperial Fists. And he has many different Ultramarine heroes and just a couple of guys from other chapters.

I would understand if he mentioned them in some books with less accurracy. For example, Cruddace does not always laud how good Imperial Guard or Tyranids are. Ward plunges Ultramarines into every book, not just as a chapter appearing them, but he always tells about them in detail and gives the image on how perfect they are.

Reply by: Experiment 626 - click to view full reply 

51383

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 18:17:45

Post by: Experiment 626

Draigo wrote:Well I think that has to do with the lack of exposure of some groups. I mean aside from cameos the gk as far as I know only have that 3 book series about them. As we know the codex fluff makes the armies seem invincible so a majority only know the codexes. So to this point the majority of the mass have recieved the "propoganda." I'm not 100 for sure on this but it could be an explanation. I know at first some ofthe new fluff kinda was jarring to me so I can't be too critical.

GK's feature heavily in the Ultramarines novel 'The Killing Ground'. Leodegarius was pure epic-win - especially when he kicked the crap out of Uriel & Pasanius!



And sure, every single army has brutal builds, but the GK ones tend to be more obnoxious than the rest because they're so heavily slanted in what they do well;
- GK mech is tops because they can all but ignore stun/lock counters that every other mech suffers from, or else has to pay through the nose to defend against. (ie: all marines pay 7.5 skaven slaves to downgrade stunned to shaken, GK's for only a 3rd of the cost get to ignore it outright by simply passing a Ld10 test!)

- Clensing flame = borderline game-breaking. Against meq's it's annoying at best, against geq's & hordes it's outragously godly! I've scene many times a squad of 6 purifyers wipe the floor with a full squad of 30 orks for maybe the loss of 1 or 2 whole marines... (and that's with the orks charging!)
Hitting every single model is the problem, if it just worked against those in BtB it wouldn't be nearly so harsh against armies that already are behind the curve.

- Psychos = outright broken. They shouldn't exist. Sure they're random and all, but there's too many results that just leave such a foul taste in your mouth...

- Psyflemen are needed as anti-tank sure, but the things are so damn under-costed it's not even funny. If they were 35pts more few people would complain and they'd still be good.

- Warp Quake shouldn't be on 2 units. Okay, it won't likely happen in a tournament unless the GK player is an idiot or knows that every other army in attendance will be relying on deep strike, but the fact that GK's can do it reeks of bad rules design.

- Psybolts I agree aren't worth it on most squads, but full strike squads like them alot, as do regular full man termie squads. Again, likely won't see it as a build gracing the tourny scene, but not every game is a tournament game either...



Sure all the other books have their godly lists and problem children, but they also tend to be a bit easier to counter... Long fangs for example have no ablaitive wounds on their squads so while they're cheap for what you get, any shooting is dangerous to them!
Dark eldar lance spam is nasty for mech lists sure, but hordes laugh at it and it's not like DE vehicles are hard to kill! (okay, a run of 5+ saves IS annoying when it happens!) The poisoned weapons are a blessing and a curse at the same time, and anyways, MC's have sucked all through 5th ed, so it's not like DE or SW 'killed them'
Parking lot IG are only a real problem if you insist that every single game must be played on the Emperor's most finely sculpted football pitches! (seriously, does no one play with terrain anymore?!!)

GK's though with their abusive builds can lead to alot of very boring and insanely one-sided games, because some of their best lists require out-right tailoring to counter! (ie: draigowing which requires you to min/max your S8+ ap1/2 weapons, which some armies utterly lack ot begin with due to the wound allocation shinanigans!)

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 18:18:31

Post by: pretre

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:In Codex BA, he praises his Ultramarines on page 10, titled The Ordering of the Host. He tells about Guilliman's excellent book and about how the BA were the first chapter to adopt it's teachings.

No, he talks about the Codex Astartes. You know, the defining book (written by Roboute Gulliman) that 95% of chapters follow. Of course he talks about it. Heck, the SW codex talks about it. It is the defining book for every chapter. Either they use it or they don't. You can't write a SM book without talking about the Codex. In fact, the UM aren't even mentioned. The entire thing is just 'RG's Codex Astartes' at the top of the page, that's it. Give me a break.

I also know they were the first Chapter GW made, but those days are far behind. There are tons of other chapters which could be described in more detail in C: SM. Back in 4th ed, they were present, but so were other chapters. It was a very versatile Codex. Ward just gues on about the Ultramarines, and barely tells about other chapters. Ward's history section is basically just how Ultramarines founded the Imperium and how they fought with Imperial Fists. And he has many different Ultramarine heroes and just a couple of guys from other chapters.

But the point is that those days aren't. They are >50% of all chapters in the fluff and I would gamble that they are a pretty large chunk of actual playing forces. I don't happen to have my 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed SM codexes in front of me, but I would be willing to bet that page count Ultras vs other chapters and character count Ultras vs other chapters are the same or even more in previous versions. You are just wrong here. Go grab your old codex and do the count.

I would understand if he mentioned them in some books with less accurracy. For example, Cruddace does not always laud how good Imperial Guard or Tyranids are. Ward plunges Ultramarines into every book, not just as a chapter appearing them, but he always tells about them in detail and gives the image on how perfect they are.

Ultramarines are defeated or whipped horribly many times in the actual codex: Battle of Macraage. Fall of Damnos. Hive Fleet Kraken. Examples from other codexes about Ward's 'detail and how perfect they are' please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, where are they even mentioned in C:GK or C:BA?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
3rd Edition C:SM had 2 Ultra characters (Calgar and Tigurius), a CF, Emperor's Champ, Xavier and Lysander. So 2 to 4.

2nd Edition C:Ultras only had Ultra characters + LOTD and was made for all Codex chapters (i.e. not Angels of Death or Space Wolves). Chief Librarian Tigurius , Marneus Calgar, Ultramarines Chaplain Cassius, Ancient Helveticus, Captain Invictus, Legion of the Damned. So 5 to 1 (if you count LOTD)

4th Edition C:SM had Kayvaan Shrike , Captain Lysander of , Chaplain Cassius , Tigurius, Tyrannic War Veterans , Ultramarines Honour Guard, Marneus Calgar. So 5 Ultra to 2 Non.

So one codex wasn't majority Ultras and that was 3rd ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amusingly enough, Lexicanum has this to say about the 4th ed Codex:
"This was only the 2nd generic Space Marine codex, although it focused much more strongly on the Ultramarines Chapter than its predecessor."

Written by Pete Haines and Graham McNeill

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 18:32:51

Post by: Draigo

Experiment 626 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well I think that has to do with the lack of exposure of some groups. I mean aside from cameos the gk as far as I know only have that 3 book series about them. As we know the codex fluff makes the armies seem invincible so a majority only know the codexes. So to this point the majority of the mass have recieved the "propoganda." I'm not 100 for sure on this but it could be an explanation. I know at first some ofthe new fluff kinda was jarring to me so I can't be too critical.

GK's feature heavily in the Ultramarines novel 'The Killing Ground'. Leodegarius was pure epic-win - especially when he kicked the crap out of Uriel & Pasanius!



And sure, every single army has brutal builds, but the GK ones tend to be more obnoxious than the rest because they're so heavily slanted in what they do well;
- GK mech is tops because they can all but ignore stun/lock counters that every other mech suffers from, or else has to pay through the nose to defend against. (ie: all marines pay 7.5 skaven slaves to downgrade stunned to shaken, GK's for only a 3rd of the cost get to ignore it outright by simply passing a Ld10 test!)

- Clensing flame = borderline game-breaking. Against meq's it's annoying at best, against geq's & hordes it's outragously godly! I've scene many times a squad of 6 purifyers wipe the floor with a full squad of 30 orks for maybe the loss of 1 or 2 whole marines... (and that's with the orks charging!)
Hitting every single model is the problem, if it just worked against those in BtB it wouldn't be nearly so harsh against armies that already are behind the curve.

- Psychos = outright broken. They shouldn't exist. Sure they're random and all, but there's too many results that just leave such a foul taste in your mouth...

- Psyflemen are needed as anti-tank sure, but the things are so damn under-costed it's not even funny. If they were 35pts more few people would complain and they'd still be good.

- Warp Quake shouldn't be on 2 units. Okay, it won't likely happen in a tournament unless the GK player is an idiot or knows that every other army in attendance will be relying on deep strike, but the fact that GK's can do it reeks of bad rules design.

- Psybolts I agree aren't worth it on most squads, but full strike squads like them alot, as do regular full man termie squads. Again, likely won't see it as a build gracing the tourny scene, but not every game is a tournament game either...



Sure all the other books have their godly lists and problem children, but they also tend to be a bit easier to counter... Long fangs for example have no ablaitive wounds on their squads so while they're cheap for what you get, any shooting is dangerous to them!
Dark eldar lance spam is nasty for mech lists sure, but hordes laugh at it and it's not like DE vehicles are hard to kill! (okay, a run of 5+ saves IS annoying when it happens!) The poisoned weapons are a blessing and a curse at the same time, and anyways, MC's have sucked all through 5th ed, so it's not like DE or SW 'killed them'
Parking lot IG are only a real problem if you insist that every single game must be played on the Emperor's most finely sculpted football pitches! (seriously, does no one play with terrain anymore?!!)

GK's though with their abusive builds can lead to alot of very boring and insanely one-sided games, because some of their best lists require out-right tailoring to counter! (ie: draigowing which requires you to min/max your S8+ ap1/2 weapons, which some armies utterly lack ot begin with due to the wound allocation shinanigans!)

I would certainly agree in a best case scenario cleansing flame can be very effective and psyfleman are pretty darn cheap point wise but so are ig suads who can field 5 lc, ravagers, etc. But why not mention if the squad of boyz gettin to shoot and charge the purifiers instead of just the best case scenarios? People never use worst case scenarios or mention that for a purifier squad your paying around 300 pt and a boyz squad is half that. Can you really be suprised? If you could pay 150 pts for a squad that is equal to my 300 I'd be just as annoyed. If you took purifier spam vs dl spam.. Assuming the purifers had 3 to 4 dreads and rhinos while the de had 3 ravagers, a few venoms and 3-4 raiders all armed with dl.. how are the de at a disadvantage? 20-30 dl shots to the dreads 12.. Then once destroyed the purifiers can be insta killed by those same lances. As far as the paladins, yes they are studly but squads of 5 you can kill with just causing them to have to make a lot of amor saves. Mathammer can say what they want but dice dont always care what the calculations say.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 18:42:25

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts -Why is it silly? It's an army of angels that specialize in airborn assaults.

-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed. - Not Ward's fluff, he's been around since 2nd edition...

*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them. - We've just had a 20+ page discussion that turned rather heated towards the end. Let's just agree to disagree.

-Praising the Ultramarines to the point where Tigurus is as powerful if not even more powerful as the Emperor himself, Marneus Calgar can outsmart even Tzeench and where all other Space Marine Chapters with the exception of Raven Guard, Black Templars and Space Wolves think that the Ultramarines are the best of the best and revere them to the point of saccharine. Tigurius has always been one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium. Hyperbole on who looks up to the Ultramarines is not going to aid your cause

-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules. Now you're just trolling. I can agree with the model being questionable at best, but OP? Please.

-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon. A daemonic plague that could kill the Grey Knights is no reason? Physical and spiritual corruption is different, the Grey Knights can still be killed by daemonic powers.

Failures with rules
-In Warhammer Fantasy Battle the rulebook for 6th edition Chaos Daemons was so broken that it almost destroyed the game. No player could hope to win them and their fluff was also altered severely. Again, hyperbole. Dark Elves and Vampire Counts could still fight them. Agree on it destroying the game though, but you really need to get your facts straight.


-Grey Knights are so over powered that new players will find it extremely hard if not impossible to defeat them. They are a big challenge even to more experienced players, with their mass teleporting armies, +2 armors, Psycannon spam and special character. Armies using a lot of psykers or Daemons like the Eldar or Chaos Daemons will be in serious trouble with this army. Also destroyed their fluff. There's this thing called the Runes of Warding that totally shuts down the Grey Knight's ability to cast psychic powers. Furthermore, you're not gonna have a mass teleporting, 2+, psycannon spam army that wins against good players consistently, it just doesn't happen. Finally, going back to their old fluff of killing people because they have to and committing atrocities in the name of the Emperor is bad? People complain that there's too much new fluff, so GW gets some of the old fluff back. People complain. What a suprise...

Failures with fluff
-Over ten years of Grey Kinght fluff was thrown in the garbage bin as Ward got to work on them. He made it so they could turn to chaos, he made Kaldor Draigo a 10 foot-tall Jesus and made them kill innocent Sisters of Battle. See above on why you're wrong on every account.

-Codex: Space Marines turned out to be a Codex: Ultramarines as Ward wrote it almost entirely from their perspective. According to him, all other marine chapters worship Roboute Guilliman as their "Spiritual Liege" and revere the Ultramarines more than anything else, seeking to be like them. He thinks that Ultramarines are perfect in every way. Basically it is like bad fanfic. He made the non-codex chapters like the Raven Guard and Space Wolves look bad and deranged and went to racist mode with the Salamanders. He insists that their skin is dark because of a genetic flaw instead of an intentional adaption in order to survive on the surface of Nocturne. He can't stand any other armies besides his own. All other SM books he writes are praising the Ultramarines even more. It's always been Codex: Ultramarines. Sure, it's a bit over the top now, but it's not suprising really. Furthermore, the Grey Knight Codex doesn't exactly glorify the Smurfs, so your last argument is outright false.

-He almost retconned the Sisters of Battle out of the fluff in the main rulebook. He also had an effect on the huge orientation of armored units we have today.
Yes, he's totally the one and only person who's responsible for the 5th edition damage tables and the fact that SW and IG spam armour like it's nobody's business.

Disclaimer: I made a nicer version, but Dakka erased everything when I was done, so all you're gonna get is this sloppy answer instead.

You raise a lot of valid points, but they drown in the complete rubbish you also spout, which is really a shame. You'd be taken a lot more seriously if you didn't complain about non-issues and stuff that isn't even Ward's doing in the first place. Feel free to disagree with me, but you'd better have some arguments to back your opinion up.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 18:47:38

Post by: 1hadhq

pretre wrote:

..but I would be willing to bet that page count Ultras vs other chapters and character count Ultras vs other chapters are the same or even more in previous versions. You are just wrong here. Go grab your old codex and do the count.

3rd Edition C:SM had 2 Ultra characters (Calgar and Tigurius), a CF, Emperor's Champ, Xavier and Lysander. So 2 to 4.

4th Edition C:SM had Kayvaan Shrike , Captain Lysander of , Chaplain Cassius , Tigurius, Tyrannic War Veterans , Ultramarines Honour Guard, Marneus Calgar. So 5 Ultra to 2 Non.

So one codex wasn't majority Ultras and that was 3rd ed.

3rd ed fluff was also mostly non-ultramarines, but the 3rd ed book had to play host for the mini-codices. So even less ultramarinish ..
Crimson fists at the cover for example.
Seems your idea to bet wasn't that good. Page count and character count point at a rise of the UM.
4th ed had traits to diversify the non-UM tough. In 5th you need SC to do that and thats where the high headcount of UM-characters ties the options to UM so you have to copy a UM instead of a range of characters of various chapters.

Still funny you disproved yourself.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 18:51:48

Post by: pretre

1hadhq wrote:Still funny you disproved yourself.

How so?

2nd was all Ultra Chars.
3rd was 2 Ultra to 4 non.
4th was 5 to 2.
5th was 5 to 5.

5th had more non-ultra characters than any other codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page counts will have to come from someone else, as I don't have the codexes for 2nd, 3rd and 4th with me.

Reply by: Sephyr - click to view full reply 

26672

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:18:22

Post by: Sephyr

I personally dislike Ward's fluff, for reasons already outlined in this thread, but not so much his rules. Draigo is a powerhouse, but his cost reflects his abilities and like Abaddon, he places a logistical burden on his army (though he also helps his army far more than Abaddon.)

My main issues are when he gives new armies abilities better than comparable powers of other armies for a reduced cost (such as Fortitude compared to Extra Armor/Daemonic Possession), or powerful abilities with dodgy, situational counters, like Cleansing Flame.

On an -average- Roll, it will reduce guard, tyranid hordes, kroot and ork boys in CC by half, and MeQ by 1/5th. I doubt there is anything like that in the game, when you figure it works no matter who charges and on both player turns.

What can be done against it? You can avoid CC, but many armies (Nids, Orks, Daemons, even CSM to some extent) Have precious few shooting options and focusing on them would make them chumps to every other army out there while not really offering much advantage against GK. You can load up on anti-psyker defense, but again, less than half the armies have that.

And it's a power that comes 'free' on a very affordable unit (again compared to other MeQ armies), counts towards combat resolution...it's literally all gravy.

If it wounded on a 5+ and didn't count toward resolution, I'd chance that it was balanced. People would still take it, because facing 20 ork boyz instead of 30 before the blades start swinging is still quite an advantage. As it is, I can see why people would get frustrated and whiny.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:25:37

Post by: pretre

Sephyr wrote:On an -average- Roll, it will reduce guard, tyranid hordes, kroot and ork boys in CC by half, and MeQ by 1/5th. I doubt there is anything like that in the game, when you figure it works no matter who charges and on both player turns.

Math, how does it work?
Kroot = 4+. So 1/2/
Orks/Gaunts = 4+ then 6+ . So 5/12.
Guard = 4+ then 5+. So... 1/3.
MEQ = 4+ then 3+. So... 1/6.

Reply by: azazel the cat - click to view full reply 

50336

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:26:15

Post by: azazel the cat

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts

Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Deepstriking Land Raiders

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Necrons allying with Blood Angels against Tyranids (Newer fluff explains this but still...)

I don't mind some of the Newcrons being written as a Machiavellian race, although i did prefer them to be borderline-Lovecraftian horrors from beyond the stars.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed.
*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them.

From a fluff perspective, this really doesn't seem any different than sci-fi versions of Audie Murphy. From a game perspective, Mephiston should cost about 600 points, or else be an Apoc-only model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:*The Sanguinor, the ultimate Mary Sue who always miraculously appears to destroy the enemy when the Blood Angles are about to lose. Wins every single time no matter what it faces.

I don't know much about the BA fluff, but isn't he called The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host? If so, you can't consider him a Mary Sue by definition. If the entire army's ideals are the ability to wreck a Xenos' day, then he, as their paragon, ought to be expected to do it in a truly epic fashion. A Mary Sue character would be if Cadet Ricky found a way to outsmart Imotekh. The Sanguinor, as I understand him, is no more a Mary Sue than Achilles or Hector.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules.

I don't know how much responsibility Matt Ward can take for the sculpt of the model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive. Just try to think of the last time you say Michelle Rodriguez survive to the end of a movie. Women in sci-fi/fantasy/action media are never allowed to live unless they are ultra-feminine, and are able to use their waif-fu to defeat the enemy. the Sisters of Battle certainly exemplify this. While I do agree that Ward is guilty of this, I don't believe that it is fair to single him out from the rest.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:35:30

Post by: daveNYC

There is the valid point that in 4, you could use the traits to get that funky non-Ultramarine flavor. In 5, you're looking to drop 150ish points instead. Traits had problems, but if you wanted to run with apothacaries in every squad and being led by a techmarine, you could. The current C:SM doesn't even give you options for fielding a seriously non-codex force.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:36:34

Post by: Draigo

Sephyr wrote:
I personally dislike Ward's fluff, for reasons already outlined in this thread, but not so much his rules. Draigo is a powerhouse, but his cost reflects his abilities and like Abaddon, he places a logistical burden on his army (though he also helps his army far more than Abaddon.)

My main issues are when he gives new armies abilities better than comparable powers of other armies for a reduced cost (such as Fortitude compared to Extra Armor/Daemonic Possession), or powerful abilities with dodgy, situational counters, like Cleansing Flame.

On an -average- Roll, it will reduce guard, tyranid hordes, kroot and ork boys in CC by half, and MeQ by 1/5th. I doubt there is anything like that in the game, when you figure it works no matter who charges and on both player turns.

What can be done against it? You can avoid CC, but many armies (Nids, Orks, Daemons, even CSM to some extent) Have precious few shooting options and focusing on them would make them chumps to every other army out there while not really offering much advantage against GK. You can load up on anti-psyker defense, but again, less than half the armies have that.

And it's a power that comes 'free' on a very affordable unit (again compared to other MeQ armies), counts towards combat resolution...it's literally all gravy.

If it wounded on a 5+ and didn't count toward resolution, I'd chance that it was balanced. People would still take it, because facing 20 ork boyz instead of 30 before the blades start swinging is still quite an advantage. As it is, I can see why people would get frustrated and whiny.

So it doesn't bother you every sw gets counter-attack for free, runes of warding shut down psykers completely, Ig spam tanks for hardly anything, Necrons get back up or are rebuilt, and just that every army has stuff thats pretty amazing? Purifers are very afordable? is that why at most theres like 30 in a 2k or less? Yes very econimical for a 300 plus pt unit thats 5-7 man deep in power armor.. You could buy 2 squads of 10 kabalites or 60 boyz for the cost of purifiers lol I dont know if you have played as gk but I can tell you saving 50 saves on 7 guys isn't exactly my idea of me laughing off their attacks/shots. I see fortitude mentioned a lot too. Do you have the same dislike for living metal?

Reply by: Battle Brother Ambrosius - click to view full reply 

47498

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:39:23

Post by: Battle Brother Ambrosius

azazel the cat wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I have thought about some of the biggest fails Ward has made this far. I also thought about some pros about him.

Fails
Well, his fluff is just terrible with a big T. He writes as if he was on drugs or something here are a few examples.

Ridiculous concepts
-Flying Librarian Dreadnoughts

Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Deepstriking Land Raiders

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Necrons allying with Blood Angels against Tyranids (Newer fluff explains this but still...)

I don't mind some of the Newcrons being written as a Machiavellian race, although i did prefer them to be borderline-Lovecraftian horrors from beyond the stars.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Epic heroes who can solo entire armies. This includes:
*Mephiston, who was miraculously resurrected three days after a building fell on him(Yeah, i know about Grimaldus, but his case was more realistic) He fought bare handed and tore the Ork Warboss's heart out with his hands. Also defended a temple alone for hours unarmed.
*Kaldor Draigo, who basically went alone inside the warp and soloed entire Daemon worlds. According to the lauding and praising of Ward, he could have killed the Dark Gods themselves by dickslapping them.

From a fluff perspective, this really doesn't seem any different than sci-fi versions of Audie Murphy. From a game perspective, Mephiston should cost about 600 points, or else be an Apoc-only model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:*The Sanguinor, the ultimate Mary Sue who always miraculously appears to destroy the enemy when the Blood Angles are about to lose. Wins every single time no matter what it faces.

I don't know much about the BA fluff, but isn't he called The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host? If so, you can't consider him a Mary Sue by definition. If the entire army's ideals are the ability to wreck a Xenos' day, then he, as their paragon, ought to be expected to do it in a truly epic fashion. A Mary Sue character would be if Cadet Ricky found a way to outsmart Imotekh. The Sanguinor, as I understand him, is no more a Mary Sue than Achilles or Hector.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Grey Knight Dreadknights have caused much negative feedback from players due to their rather silly appearance and overpowered rules.

I don't know how much responsibility Matt Ward can take for the sculpt of the model.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive. Just try to think of the last time you say Michelle Rodriguez survive to the end of a movie. Women in sci-fi/fantasy/action media are never allowed to live unless they are ultra-feminine, and are able to use their waif-fu to defeat the enemy. the Sisters of Battle certainly exemplify this. While I do agree that Ward is guilty of this, I don't believe that it is fair to single him out from the rest.

Thank you for your polite and mature answer.

I agree with most you have said, and as I have been pretty much bashed to the ground here, I appreciate your kindness.

I wonder if I should just delete the original message...

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:42:26

Post by: pretre

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
I agree with most you have said, and as I have been pretty much bashed to the ground here, I appreciate your kindness.

aww. It's okay; we still like you.

:hug:

Reply by: Veteran Sergeant - click to view full reply 

51464

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:44:06

Post by: Veteran Sergeant

azazel the cat wrote:Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

There's nothing else like it in the Imperium of Man. What they do in other settings conforms to the conventions and precedents set there. No such precedent exists in 40K.

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.

Again, no precedent. And it's somewhat sketchy in terms of game balance.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive.

Um. Ellen Ripley in the Alien films. Yes, she dies in the 3rd one, but it's a self sacrifice (and if you watch the Assembly Cut of the film and not the shoddy theatrical cut, it actually makes sense). In the second film, she's very strong and doesn't use waif-fu. Heck, female protagonists abound in modern media. Milla Jovovich from Resident Evil, Lara Croft, etc. It's to the point where the female protagonist is now overused, cliche and unbelievable most of the time.

I don't know why the Sisters get slaughtered in 40K fluff. Probably because it's a bit more evocative than just killing another hundred thousand Guardsmen. Space Marines and Imperial Guardsmen have died in droves throughout time and nobody ever says "Why's 40K pick on the Imperial Guard?". I think people just notice the Sisters more because they're girls and they had been more or less absent from the fluff until more recently. And their slow evolution from inexplicably incorruptible saints to regular humans heavily brainwashed by the Ecclesiarchy has changed the way they are depicted. Plus, hey, they're just normal humans in the end. They're a half step up from a Guardsman, just more expensive to deploy.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:46:46

Post by: daveNYC

azazel the cat wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive. Just try to think of the last time you say Michelle Rodriguez survive to the end of a movie. Women in sci-fi/fantasy/action media are never allowed to live unless they are ultra-feminine, and are able to use their waif-fu to defeat the enemy. the Sisters of Battle certainly exemplify this. While I do agree that Ward is guilty of this, I don't believe that it is fair to single him out from the rest.

Ripley and her pulse rifle would like to have a chat with you. But then James Cameron has always been a bit of an outlier when it comes to sticking strong women in his films.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 19:50:11

Post by: pretre

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

There's nothing else like it in the Imperium of Man. What they do in other settings conforms to the conventions and precedents set there. No such precedent exists in 40K.

I believe Knights Titans can move very fast and jump long distances (I may be misremembering Mechanicum) making them effectively jump infantry.

The US tried to drop tanks from airplanes durring WWII. I don't think it's unreasonable to attempt to drop a huge tank in the same fashion as a drop pod 38,000 years later.

Again, no precedent. And it's somewhat sketchy in terms of game balance.

Thunderhawks have always done low altitude insertions, including with vehicles.

Reply by: Veteran Sergeant - click to view full reply 

51464

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:02:27

Post by: Veteran Sergeant

A Land Raider is a pretty huge vehicle. I acknowledge they obviously have to get to the planet somehow, but the idea that they can be dropped effectively and safely in the scope of a single 40K turn seems a bit dubious.

And Titans aren't on the same scale as a dreadnought. What they have, and have not been able to miniaturize in the universe is what the precedent is. They have jump packs for Marines, and they are gigantic. Though it's important to note that the Blood Angels dreadnought flies due to a psychic power, not mechanicals. However, there's no precedent for that either. It just seems a little silly.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:04:11

Post by: daveNYC

pretre wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Because a giant mech suit has never been adapted to fly in any other kind of media. Except for every cartoon that Japan has ever produced, ever. This doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Even Iron Man can fly via thrusters. What's so wrong with Dreadnoughts doing the same?

There's nothing else like it in the Imperium of Man. What they do in other settings conforms to the conventions and precedents set there. No such precedent exists in 40K.

I believe Knights Titans can move very fast and jump long distances (I may be misremembering Mechanicum) making them effectively jump infantry.

Don't remember them jumping. They were relatively fast and nimble though. Dodging incoming fire was an option for them. Flying dreads don't really fit with the overall style of Imperial hardware, which is big and slow (and heavy on armor and firepower). Flying mecha would fit more with the DE or regular Eldar.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:04:24

Post by: pretre

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A Land Raider is a pretty huge vehicle. I acknowledge they obviously have to get to the planet somehow, but the idea that they can be dropped effectively and safely in the scope of a single 40K turn seems a bit dubious.

Deep Strike is an abstraction. Drop pods do not drop effectively and safely in the scope of one turn. That's why you roll for reserves.

And Titans aren't on the same scale as a dreadnought. What they have, and have not been able to miniaturize in the universe is what the precedent is. They have jump packs for Marines, and they are gigantic. Though it's important to note that the Blood Angels dreadnought flies due to a psychic power, not mechanicals. However, there's no precedent for that either. It just seems a little silly.

Knights are very different than titans. Also, it is a psychic power. Psychic powers do crazy things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daveNYC wrote: Flying dreads don't really fit with the overall style of Imperial hardware, which is big and slow (and heavy on armor and firepower).

Valks, vendettas, sentinels are all pretty speedy and not heavy on armor. Not to mention Arvus Lighters, gun cutters, etc.

But again, it is a psychic power and not technology.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:10:24

Post by: Draigo

As far as flying dreads not fitting Imperial hardware.. Why exactly is an armies unique thing supposed to be for everyone? I don't see ultramarines with the sanguinary guards jump packs or Tigerious with a nfw. I mean id love for my inquisitor to have joww or murderous hurricane.

Reply by: Big Mek Wurrzog - click to view full reply 

43132

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:24:19

Post by: Big Mek Wurrzog

Experiment 626 wrote:Eldar ironically have it pretty good against the GK mess... Their runes of warding can pretty much negate every single psychic power. Doom & fortune still work well enough and the warlock powers are unblockable throug hany means. (other than killing the warlock!)

No, the books that got utterly fethed by GK's are;
- Daemons. Litterly no point in playing the game unless you're running a fateweaver build. Even then, outside of tournaments the GK players can very easily decide to quake-shunt the entire table and auto-win the game...
All the big problems daemons suffer from are simply exploited by the new GK's as they have the game's best mech, best anti-horde, best wound allocation shinanigans AND all their special anti-daemon rules to top things off!

- Tyranids. On par with daemons ironically... Pointy-death-sticks everywhere means the multi-wound beasties are even more crap, grenades that specifically counter the 'nids main strength (stupid psychos!) army-wide S5 shooting, easy to spam rending, clensing flame BS.

- Orks. Don't have it as bad as the other two, but clensing flame on it's own can win the game for the shiny marines, especialy against foot hordes! Psyfleman dreads can also take-out whole squads of killa kans in a single phase on a good day.


Three freaking armies that are litterly b-slapped by a single codex! Okay, it's not quite as bad as the fantasy daemons feth-up, but still, pretty sad when you're looking at your collection of hundreds of dollars knowing you can't take them to tournament anymore because the scene is flooded by 'shiny special marines'

I've never had an issue with Grey Knights, I fight them all the time. I always expect a good fight when i face GK because i know they are going to be the best quality points can buy in 40k. I expect nothing less when I face GK and infact have one multiple times against the flamer horde. I don't think you should complain about an entire army... maybe a prospect like "I wish my army had force weapons" Hey my orks with they had melta guns or Monsterous creatures like squigs but we don't.

As far as Matt Ward, i don't know enough about the army fluff of grey knights to know or care really what he did but i did hear some disturbing rumors in the necron codex, like ork slaves, Letters which the Emperor himself wrote ect ect ect. So it's made me leery yeah.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:25:08

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Again, no precedent. And it's somewhat sketchy in terms of game balance.

Somewhat sketchy in terms of game balance?


Really? Why would anyone EVER deepstrike a Land Raider?

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:27:19

Post by: pretre

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: i did hear some disturbing rumors in the necron codex, like ork slaves, Letters which the Emperor himself wrote ect ect ect.

This is why we can't have nice things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Really? Why would anyone EVER deepstrike a Land Raider?

Because it is Hilarious!

I want an all land-raider BA army that only deepstrikes. Legen... wait for it... dary.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:42:00

Post by: daveNYC

I guess 'overall style' is a confusing concept or something. Look at what the Imperium fields for vehicles. Nearly everything is a slab sided brick. Even their fliers tend to be freaking bricks. Yeah, the IG has two fliers and a fast walker, while the Marines get the land speeders, but overall you're talking about bricks on legs, bricks on wheels, bricks on tracks, and even some bricks with wings.

In that context, giving the brick with legs the ability to fly is really awkward.

Reply by: Veteran Sergeant - click to view full reply 

51464

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:49:49

Post by: Veteran Sergeant

pretre wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A Land Raider is a pretty huge vehicle. I acknowledge they obviously have to get to the planet somehow, but the idea that they can be dropped effectively and safely in the scope of a single 40K turn seems a bit dubious.

Deep Strike is an abstraction. Drop pods do not drop effectively and safely in the scope of one turn. That's why you roll for reserves.

I think you're confusing what is being abstracted with the Reserve rolls. They don't drop all th way from space in one turn, but they do arrive and the Marines disembark in one turn. And it fits within the fluff and meshes with the rules at the same time. Pod hits the ground, doors open, Marines charge out. But they can't assault, acknowledging the time spent doing all of the above.

A Land Raider arriving via the Reserve roll is representing a Thunderhawk Transporter maneuvering over the battlefield, with a huge tank slung underneath it, and dropping it in a manner that doesn't damage this huge and heavy tank or mire it in soft ground or other landing zone hazards. This isn't the same as a bunch of individual Marines jumping out of the doors of one as it comes in low.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 20:52:18

Post by: pretre

Why is my abstraction bad and your abstraction good?

For all you know, the Thunderhawk has been circling for an hour and found the perfect spot just this turn.

It's the same thing.

Heck, in old fluff, they dropped Land Raiders straight into oceans and did undersea missions in them.

It is not unprecedented.

Reply by: Hornifex - click to view full reply 

50433

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:00:23

Post by: Hornifex

beigeknight wrote:I don't understand why some people will say that X codex makes X army look "over the top". I mean, every single codex makes their respective army look like an unstoppable death machine. That's the whole idea. Why would the Tyranid Codex tell stories of getting owned by Space Marines or the Ork Codex have a story about getting pounded by Tau? It's shameless self-promoting because it's THEIR book.

The Tyranid codex tells of the many times the tyranids have been defeated by the tau, SM and IG

Reply by: Oaka - click to view full reply 

256

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:04:53

Post by: Oaka

The currently written fluff particularly angers me because I don't understand why every Space Marine chapter doesn't get together annually for a weekend convention and set up booths showcasing neat things their chapter has learned. The convention booths could be titled as such:

"How to point and shoot at two different things as a Devastator Marine Sergeant" - Space Wolf Long Fang

"Dropping Land Raiders from orbit, a technical overview" - Blood Angels

"Being charged by the enemy, why not charge back?" - Space Wolves

"Our librarians should talk, we know a few things you could find useful" - Grey Knights

"How these neat grenades I found can cause your enemy to punch themselves in the face" - Grey Knight Techmarine

Ultramarines would probably boycott the convention, however, and not all the booths would be popular, such as:

"It's cool to be initiative 3" - Salamanders

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:06:07

Post by: pretre

Hornifex wrote:The Tyranid codex tells of the many times the tyranids have been defeated by the tau, SM and IG

I think this is a really valid point, but has to be put into perspective. Tyranids cannot tell their own stories. All that we know of Tyranids and all the stories that are told are of those that fight them. There are many victories against the Tyranids, but most of them are at a horrible cost and every single one of them says something like 'And there's still about 50 kajillion nids left that are still making a beeline for X planet'.

Nids are horrifying because no matter how many times you 'win'; you are going to lose in the long run. The excessive heroics of other races in the Nid book just drive that home. It takes a complete badarse to stop them and even when you do, it doesn't matter.

Reply by: Oaka - click to view full reply 

256

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:07:30

Post by: Oaka

Hornifex wrote:

The Tyranid codex tells of the many times the tyranids have been defeated by the tau, SM and IG

It's not as bad as most of the current Tau boxed set art, which shows what a model from the unit you are about to purchase would like like if it was exploding and on fire.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:09:06

Post by: Draigo

Oaka wrote:The currently written fluff particularly angers me because I don't understand why every Space Marine chapter doesn't get together annually for a weekend convention and set up booths showcasing neat things their chapter has learned. The convention booths could be titled as such:

"How to point and shoot at two different things as a Devastator Marine Sergeant" - Space Wolf Long Fang

"Dropping Land Raiders from orbit, a technical overview" - Blood Angels

"Being charged by the enemy, why not charge back?" - Space Wolves

"Our librarians should talk, we know a few things you could find useful" - Grey Knights

"How these neat grenades I found can cause your enemy to punch themselves in the face" - Grey Knight Techmarine

Ultramarines would probably boycott the convention, however, and not all the booths would be popular, such as:

"It's cool to be initiative 3" - Salamanders

Cause that would make marines absolutely silly and the worst piece of over top nancy crap this game has ever seen and defeat the purpose of each having it's own book. lol

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:10:53

Post by: pretre

Oaka wrote:The currently written fluff particularly angers me because I don't understand why every Space Marine chapter doesn't get together annually for a weekend convention and set up booths showcasing neat things their chapter has learned. The convention booths could be titled as such:

Tongue in cheek, I know, but your post highlights the problem that my group of friends call collectively 'The Cell Phone Problem'. Many problems in Sci-Fi and Fantasy could be solved almost instantly by good communications between people, i.e. Cell Phones.

- The first 10 books of the Wheel of Time books are completely Cell Phone problems. Heck even when they get good communication, they don't use it.
- The Imperium would be 100 times better if they had instantaneous communication and better travel. Stupid Magnus.
- Harry Potter? If he had actually talked to Dumbledore or really anyone through half of the books, they would have been in a much better place.
- Song of Ice and Fire? Geeze, those folks needed cell phones.

Of course, you could say the same about the real world too. If people who should be allies trusted each other and just talked, things would be a lot better. Too bad that never works out.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:16:09

Post by: daveNYC

Oaka wrote:The currently written fluff particularly angers me because I don't understand why every Space Marine chapter doesn't get together annually for a weekend convention and set up booths showcasing neat things their chapter has learned. The convention booths could be titled as such:

"How to point and shoot at two different things as a Devastator Marine Sergeant" - Space Wolf Long Fang

"Dropping Land Raiders from orbit, a technical overview" - Blood Angels

"Being charged by the enemy, why not charge back?" - Space Wolves

"Our librarians should talk, we know a few things you could find useful" - Grey Knights

"How these neat grenades I found can cause your enemy to punch themselves in the face" - Grey Knight Techmarine

Ultramarines would probably boycott the convention, however, and not all the booths would be popular, such as:

"It's cool to be initiative 3" - Salamanders

"Fast is good. How to turbocharge everything except Landraiders." - Blood Angels

"How to out-mojo their mojo with your mojo. Practical rune use and you." - Space Wolves

"Forget flying cars, How about flying tanks. The M41.998 Stormbird." - Grey Knights and/or Blood Angels

"Burn the witch? Burn everything! Flamethrowers for every vehicle." - Blood Angels (a Black Templar favorite)

Reply by: Oaka - click to view full reply 

256

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:29:26

Post by: Oaka

pretre wrote:[
- Song of Ice and Fire? Geeze, those folks needed cell phones.

Hilarious. Half the conflicts would be avoided with a quick call to father or mother to let them know you were still alive.

Reply by: Hornifex - click to view full reply 

50433

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:34:47

Post by: Hornifex

I don't see anything wring with wards codices, they have solid rules and I (personally) like the fluff he writes. I like the change for the newcrons and like all the GK fluff. I'll shut up now in case I start to here cries of cheese!

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:39:29

Post by: 1hadhq

pretre wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Still funny you disproved yourself.

How so?

2nd was all Ultra Chars.
3rd was 2 Ultra to 4 non.
4th was 5 to 2.
5th was 5 to 5.

5th had more non-ultra characters than any other codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page counts will have to come from someone else, as I don't have the codexes for 2nd, 3rd and 4th with me.

Sorry for the late reply, but counting kept me busy..

2nd ( started later so IDK )
3rd was a main codex plus additional small pamphlets if you care to play one of the big 4.

Let me start with the 3rd ed:

Codex Space Marines ( and it was meant SPACE marines, not ultra marines & friends..)

UM
- pic of chapter assembled = 1 page
- organization of the chapter = 1 page
- Marneus Calgar = 2 pages
- Varro Tigurius = 2/3 page
- fluff : landing scene = 1/2 page
- painted units = 10 of 27.
- how to = generally UM.
> 7,16 + x pages

generic
- cut scene: SM vs orks = 3/4 page
- fluff : daily rituals = 1 page
- astartes space vessels = 1 page
- examples of color schemes = 2 pages
- fluff : inquisitional report = 2/3 page ( 12 chapters )
> 5,41 pages

non UM
- inquisitional report : White panthers 2/3 page
- quote : silver skulls = 1/3 page
- illustration : BT = 1page
- examples of marine forces: 1 DIY and 1 WS = 1 page
- Cortez / CF = 2/3 page
- EC / BT = 2/3 page
- Xavier / Sa = 2/3 page
- Lysander / IF = 2/3 page
- creation of a space marine : silver skulls = 1 page
- cover : CF
> 6,64 pages

the UM get the how to stuff and 35% of the pages counted here. The non UM get 33,2 %, the generic SM stuff is 27,05 %.
Therefore UM get 1/3 dedicated and 2/3 is handed to the rest and/or shared.

And here comes the reason why UM faced more non-UM chars in 3rd:
Main codex + mini-codex = BA, DA, SW, armageddon.
So 2 UM in main vs 4 non UM chars :
- codex BA = 6
- codex DA = 5
- codex SW = 3
- codex armageddon = 1
> 2 vs ( 4 + 3 = 7 ) or ( 4 + 5 = 9 ) or ( 4 + 6 = 10 ).
Anyone who had to own both publications for a legal army got far more non UM as s/he will ever get with the SC - focused structure we have now.

Page count of the mini codices:

BA:
- pics = 6 pages
- fluff = 2 pages
- Dante = 1 page
- corbulo = 1/2 page
- Lemartes = 1/2 page
- Mephiston = 2/3 page
- Tycho = 2/3 page
- Moriar = 2/3 page
> 12.98 pages. ( 20 + 13 = 33. BA = 39,33 %. vs UM = 21,69% coverage )

DA:
- pics = 5 pages
- fluff = 2 pages
- Azrael = 1 page
- MotR = 1/2 page
- Namaan =1/2 page
- Asmodai = 1 + 1/3 page
- Ezekiel = 2/3 page
- org = 1 page
> 12 pages. ( 20 + 12 = 32. DA = 37,5% vs 22,37% UM coverage )

SW:
- pics = 2 pages
- Fluff = 4,5 pages
- Grimnar = 2 pages
- Ragnar = 1 page
- Ulrik = 1 page
- org = 2 pages
> 12,5 pages. ( 20 + 12,5 = 32,5. SW = 38,46% vs 22 % UM coverage )

Thus UM got 30% if playing generic marines, down to ~ 20% if playing a minidex. The BA , DA , SW got ~ 40% in this combo.

Off to count 4th ed marines in space.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:42:56

Post by: pretre

Wow. Thanks for the page counting. Just FYI, I'm not disputing that UM have been getting more press since 3rd edition. I'm disputing that this is Ward's fault. I'm fairly certain 4th and 2nd prove me right, but 5th may put a nail in the coffin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:And then comes the reason why UM faced more non-UM chars in 3rd:
Anyone who had to own both publications for a legal army got far more non UM as s/he will ever get with the SC - focused structure we have now.

Well, that's multiple additional codexes though. BA, DA, BT(Armageddon) and SW don't count since they exist as separate non C:SM codexes now. The only one that really coutns there is Armageddon since Salamanders lost their own codex and they have the same number of characters that they did then. In fact, we now have the same # of characters since there are 4 non (not counting the one that was in C: Arma and is still in C:SM, Vulkan) in 5th and 4 non in 3rd.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:49:57

Post by: daveNYC

The photo spreads in a lot of the new codeci have been crap. GK at least had the excuse that they're a single chapter, but look at DE or Necrons. DE had maybe two or three troop schemes, and I think only two different vehicle paint jobs. Necrons were about the same. One page with some variations, and then the rest were all silver. Though silver with accents what with the new models.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 21:54:39

Post by: pretre

daveNYC wrote:The photo spreads in a lot of the new codeci have been crap. GK at least had the excuse that they're a single chapter, but look at DE or Necrons. DE had maybe two or three troop schemes, and I think only two different vehicle paint jobs. Necrons were about the same. One page with some variations, and then the rest were all silver. Though silver with accents what with the new models.

Did you look at the Necron codex? There's like 8 different dynasties with different color schemes over a ton of pages. I'll give you the two different types of vehicle paint jobs for them though.

I don't have the DE codex, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 22:01:32

Post by: daveNYC

I'll have to recheck the figure models, thought that they had squished them onto a single page. One interesting thing, the dark green/light green vehicle paint scheme is virtually identical to the DE vehicle paint jobs.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 22:06:43

Post by: pretre

P68, Warriors from Mephrit, Nephrekh, Agdagath, Thokt. War, Imm and LG from Charnovokh.
P69, Warr, Imm, LG from Novokh. Nihilakh dynasty vehicles and group shot.
P70, Imms from Nakthyst, Nephrekh, 'Standard', Sautekh, Thokt, Unidentified
P71, LG from Standard, Ogdobekh, Charnovokh.
P74, 5 unidentified types of Triarch Prets
P75, Atun, 3 unidentified, Sekemtar Deathmarks

etc so on.

Conservatively (not counting unidentfied), 13 different color schemes on 6 pages: Mephrit, Nephrekh, Agdagath, Thokt, Charnovokh, Novokh, Nihilakh, Nakthyst, Standard, Sautekh, Ogdobekh, Sekemtar, Atun.

Reply by: azazel the cat - click to view full reply 

50336

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 22:39:45

Post by: azazel the cat

daveNYC wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:-Sisters of Battle always die in his fluff. ALWAYS. Either they are killed by Grey Knights for no reason or by a single Daemon.

This is no more Ward's fault than every other writer in popular media. Strong, tough female characters are never allowed to survive. Just try to think of the last time you say Michelle Rodriguez survive to the end of a movie. Women in sci-fi/fantasy/action media are never allowed to live unless they are ultra-feminine, and are able to use their waif-fu to defeat the enemy. the Sisters of Battle certainly exemplify this. While I do agree that Ward is guilty of this, I don't believe that it is fair to single him out from the rest.

Ripley and her pulse rifle would like to have a chat with you. But then James Cameron has always been a bit of an outlier when it comes to sticking strong women in his films.

Ripley spends the first two movies running away and hiding. She only takes the offensive in the 3rd movie, and I don't seem to recall it ending well for her. The exception is at the end of the 2nd film ("Get away from her, you ") and even then, it is only when her maternal instincts kick in, which has always been the exception to the rule (T2's Sarah Connor, but not T1). And don't even try to bring the 4th Alien movie or Joss Whedon into it, as although he writes female characters with super-strength, they're never emotionally strong, and always played by whispy little hyper-feminine girls (Summer Glau).

And James Cameron is no different. Sarah Connor only kicks ass in T2 due to the maternal instinct exception; Sigourney Weaver dies in Avatar, and I don't remember Pvt. Vasquez doing so well in Aliens.

Anyway, I'm gonna stop now before I send this even farther off-topic.

Reply by: Kanluwen - click to view full reply 

722

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 22:48:23

Post by: Kanluwen

Vasquez did freaking pimp for the majority of the movie. It wasn't till Drake was killed that she kinda lost her composure.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 22:53:45

Post by: 1hadhq

pretre wrote:Wow. Thanks for the page counting. Just FYI, I'm not disputing that UM have been getting more press since 3rd edition. I'm disputing that this is Ward's fault. I'm fairly certain 4th and 2nd prove me right, but 5th may put a nail in the coffin.


. In fact, we now have the same # of characters since there are 4 non (not counting the one that was in C: Arma and is still in C:SM, Vulkan) in 5th and 4 non in 3rd.

So 4th it is.

Codex Space marines ( a lot of blue but traits to diversify ):

UM
- fluff : Ventris = 1/3 page
- Pic = 1 page
- UM history = 2 pages
- Cassius = 1 page
- Tigurius = 1 page + 30% space !
- tyr vet = 1 page
- honor G. = 1 page
- Calgar = 2 pages
- painted units: 23 , in UM colors => 23 = 16 pages. 100% blue!
- pic UM = 2 pages
> 27,33 pages. = 57,47 %

generic
- history etc = 8 pages
- color schemes: 14 examples = 2 pages
- traits = 4 pages
> 14 pages = 29,57 %

non-UM
- Shrike = 1 page
- Lysander = 1 page
- pic of IF = 2 pages
- pic of RG = 2 pages
> 6 pages. = 12,67%

Total of : 47,33 pages.
[i]UM nearly got to 60%. Generic entires of ~ 30%. The non-UM reduced to ~ 12%.
Compared to 3rd: UM raised from 35% to 58%, generic slightly raised from 27,05% to 30%, the non UM fall from 33,2% to 12%.
BT and DA left the combined codex structure and went on their own dex. Thus EC no more in a vanilla marine dex.
You get 3 UM chars and 2 non-UM char. BT got 2 chars, DA kept 4, lost 2 gained 1. The 2 codices granted a bit more space and page-count,
but the trend in the common space marine codex moved towards UM too.

Lost chars from 3rd to 4th : Xavier, Cortez, Namaan, Asmodai. No ultramarine was lost.....

And off to 5th ed.

Reply by: Sephyr - click to view full reply 

26672

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 23:44:04

Post by: Sephyr

Draigo wrote:

So it doesn't bother you every sw gets counter-attack for free, runes of warding shut down psykers completely, Ig spam tanks for hardly anything, Necrons get back up or are rebuilt, and just that every army has stuff thats pretty amazing? Purifers are very afordable? is that why at most theres like 30 in a 2k or less? Yes very econimical for a 300 plus pt unit thats 5-7 man deep in power armor.. You could buy 2 squads of 10 kabalites or 60 boyz for the cost of purifiers lol I dont know if you have played as gk but I can tell you saving 50 saves on 7 guys isn't exactly my idea of me laughing off their attacks/shots. I see fortitude mentioned a lot too. Do you have the same dislike for living metal?

Let's not equivocate here. Purifiers are, as i said, affordable -compared- to other high-end MeQ infantry such as Thousand sons, Possessed, Noise Marines, regular Devastators and the like. Cleansing flame is but one of the many abilities they possess, while pretty much all of the other units you mention get their one highlight skill (counter-attack for SW, splitting fire for Long Fangs, and so on).

There's been threads about this. The regular GK unit gets a bit of psyker defense, force weapons, storm bolters, blanket Favored enemy and other variable perks before their FOC 'hat' (Cleansing flame, shunting, etc). You can either assume that GKs are supposed to be better for a similar cost because they just are or not.

I find Living metal balanced. Necron vehicles are still quite expensive and it's nowhere near the high-end vehicular insurance it used to be. Besides, it's a 4+ roll to avoid a stun, far less reliable than the 10-below on 2d6 you get for 5 points on the GK Razorspam.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 23:46:20

Post by: 1hadhq

5th ed:

UM

- history = 4 pages
- orga = 3 pages
- battles = 9 pages
- banner = 1 page
- pics = 5 pages
- fluff = 2 pages
- Calgar = 1 page
- Sicarius = 1 page
- Tigurius = 1 page
- Cassius = 1 page
- Telion = 1 page
- chronus = 1 page
> 31 pages. 50,81%. 6 chars.

generic

- fluff = 16 pages
> 26,22%

non-UM

- fluff = 6 pages
- pics = 3 pages
- Kantor = 1 page
- Lysander = 1 page
- Shrike = 1 page
- He'stan = 1 page
- Kor'sarro = 1 page
> 14 pages. 22,95%. 5 chars.

BA and SW got outsourced this time.
Compared to 3-4-5 ed:
UM : 35 - 58 - 50 % . generic : 27 - 30 - 26 %. non-UM 33 - 12 - 22 %. coverage.
UM : 2 - 3 - 6 chars. non UM: 4 - 2 - 5 chars. Without the BA , DA , SW.
In general: UM 6 , BA 8, DA 4, SW 7 , BT 2 , GK 8. Latest codices on the course of 7-8 char per codex.

Reply by: Draigo - click to view full reply 

52137

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/07 23:57:53

Post by: Draigo

Sephyr wrote:

Draigo wrote:

So it doesn't bother you every sw gets counter-attack for free, runes of warding shut down psykers completely, Ig spam tanks for hardly anything, Necrons get back up or are rebuilt, and just that every army has stuff thats pretty amazing? Purifers are very afordable? is that why at most theres like 30 in a 2k or less? Yes very econimical for a 300 plus pt unit thats 5-7 man deep in power armor.. You could buy 2 squads of 10 kabalites or 60 boyz for the cost of purifiers lol I dont know if you have played as gk but I can tell you saving 50 saves on 7 guys isn't exactly my idea of me laughing off their attacks/shots. I see fortitude mentioned a lot too. Do you have the same dislike for living metal?

Let's not equivocate here. Purifiers are, as i said, affordable -compared- to other high-end MeQ infantry such as Thousand sons, Possessed, Noise Marines, regular Devastators and the like. Cleansing flame is but one of the many abilities they possess, while pretty much all of the other units you mention get their one highlight skill (counter-attack for SW, splitting fire for Long Fangs, and so on).

There's been threads about this. The regular GK unit gets a bit of psyker defense, force weapons, storm bolters, blanket Favored enemy and other variable perks before their FOC 'hat' (Cleansing flame, shunting, etc). You can either assume that GKs are supposed to be better for a similar cost because they just are or not.

I find Living metal balanced. Necron vehicles are still quite expensive and it's nowhere near the high-end vehicular insurance it used to be. Besides, it's a 4+ roll to avoid a stun, far less reliable than the 10-below on 2d6 you get for 5 points on the GK Razorspam.

There has been a lot of best case scenario description and not comparing to other elites made troops like wolf guard. They get compared to the cheap stuff like boyz or in this case a known outdated codex. Not all that compelling. There's lots of troos better then 1k sons that arent even elite or have to pay for an almost useless hq. Most the named stuff like 1k, noise marines etc are way over priced and weaker then ork boyz, grey hunters, and almost any troop choice you could take from any 5th edition codex. Blanket favored enemy daemon? The're daemon hunters. Force weapons? We always had those. Storm bolters? Had those too. Have yet to see a horde player say flamers are cheesy cause last I saw most get those free. IG has flamer spam that cheaper and way more damaging vs hordes then 5 power armor marines could dream. Plus psycannon spam doesnt give you a 100 percent answer to AV 13 or 14. A truck with a def rolla full or boys could erase a purifier squad without even disembarking. A vindicator could as well for half the cost. So complaining about stuff they had before really seems lack luster arguement.

Reply by: pretre - click to view full reply 

20774

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/08 00:45:52

Post by: pretre

So Ward had LESS Ultra material than 4th and 2nd in his 5th Ed codex? Myth busted.

Reply by: daveNYC - click to view full reply 

46286

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/08 14:35:56

Post by: daveNYC

pretre wrote:P68, Warriors from Mephrit, Nephrekh, Agdagath, Thokt. War, Imm and LG from Charnovokh.
P69, Warr, Imm, LG from Novokh. Nihilakh dynasty vehicles and group shot.
P70, Imms from Nakthyst, Nephrekh, 'Standard', Sautekh, Thokt, Unidentified
P71, LG from Standard, Ogdobekh, Charnovokh.
P74, 5 unidentified types of Triarch Prets
P75, Atun, 3 unidentified, Sekemtar Deathmarks

etc so on.

Conservatively (not counting unidentfied), 13 different color schemes on 6 pages: Mephrit, Nephrekh, Agdagath, Thokt, Charnovokh, Novokh, Nihilakh, Nakthyst, Standard, Sautekh, Ogdobekh, Sekemtar, Atun.

Looked at it last night and you are absolutely correct, though in my defense I'd like to mention that the differences between many of the color schemes is a tad subtle.

Reply by: Sephyr - click to view full reply 

26672

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/08 17:18:49

Post by: Sephyr

Draigo wrote:

There's lots of troos better then 1k sons that arent even elite or have to pay for an almost useless hq. Most the named stuff like 1k, noise marines etc are way over priced and weaker then ork boyz, grey hunters, and almost any troop choice you could take from any 5th edition codex.

Blanket favored enemy daemon? The're daemon hunters. Should all Devastators and Havocs have Tank Hunters of Favored Enemy: Monstrous Creatures? It's what they do.


Force weapons? We always had those. Storm bolters? Had those too. For the current price? No you did not. And you're again leaving each unit's extra thingy (Warp Quake, Cleansing flame, shunting, etc) suspiciously unmentioned.

Have yet to see a horde player say flamers are cheesy cause last I saw most get those free. IG has flamer spam that cheaper and way more damaging vs hordes then 5 power armor marines could dream
Flamers are quite short-range, and only a few units get -one- flamer for free. Just spreading your troops a bit can reduce flamer efficacy by over 50%. No amount of spreading will help you against Cleansing flame.

Plus psycannon spam doesnt give you a 100 percent answer to AV 13 or 14. I actually didn't bring up psycannon spam, but I'm glad you did. It's revealing when someone's argument is "This cheap, ultra-killy combo is not 100% effective against the game's most expensive vehicles! Truly our suffering is boundless!"

A truck with a def rolla full or boys could erase a purifier squad without even disembarking. A vindicator could as well for half the cost. Wow. Really. A pair of Killa Kans is able to murder/counter a full Obliterator Cult for 1/3rd of the cost in cc, but if I let it get all the way over there, I deserve it. It has NOTHING to do with unit functionality or costing. If you think a trukk, Vindicator or even a Battlewagon is making it all the way close to an army with rending psycannons, Vindicare snipers and psyriflemen without enough luck to make strategy moot, I don't know what to tell you. They don't even need to go for side-armor shots much.

So complaining about stuff they had before really seems lack luster arguement. Actually I was complaining about the addition of Cleansing Flame, which I believe they did -not- have before, in addition to the neat package they had, now at a reduced price. It may be a lackluster argument, but there you go.

I'm not even that peeved about much of the stuff above, but the sheer refusal of some people to even see the point is a bit annoying.

Reply by: ObliviousBlueCaboose - click to view full reply 

42179

Why Hate Matt Ward? @ 2011/12/08 17:36:09

Post by: ObliviousBlueCaboose

pretre wrote:So Ward had LESS Ultra material than 4th and 2nd in his 5th Ed codex? Myth busted.

Look at the page numbers. Ultra materials have increased per codex. Myth Confirmed.

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